#The NPC Rebake Project and NPC Tinkering Power Zone (NO MULTIATTACKERS ALLOWED)

1 messages · Page 16 of 1

brisk flax
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3/4/5 AP, baybee

indigo oasis
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Oh he knew an Avenger has kicked his ass before

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This just felt more devastating for some reason

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That avenger was actually more buffed up too- had 2 templates (veteran and exotic) and about 3 optionals

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Still in hindsight that one felt like it got more unlucky and thereby wasn’t as overwhelming compared to the one I just ran

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It was even their first avenger so it triggered revenge real early

brisk flax
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What I might do, actually, though I doubt it would make a difference versus a zheng given its melee/close-range nature, is shrink the avenger's sensors down to 8

indigo oasis
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That was another thought I had- moreso from a simplification/consolidation perspective than a balancing one tho

brisk flax
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That doesn't really affect any part of their kit, but it does reduce the number of range bands you need to keep in mind from 4 (10, 8, 5, 3) to 3 (8, 5, 3)

indigo oasis
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Easier if it’s gun and and sensors have the same range when it doesn’t make a meaningful difference

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Out of curiosity- not as a feedback thing- how does Slug Pistol’s base damage being AP meaningfully contribute to the Avenger’s role? Like in general I know this was in the base version

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Erupting Shrapnel absolutely needs to be for a threat but I’ve always found AP Weapons on NPCs floating in a similar boat as reliable- as in used only on NPCs that lean into it

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Sniper and Demolisher are both about one big hit, and Leech couldn’t make its weapon work without AP since it’s all about taking heat for more attacks, but I don’t understand Avenger fully

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There’s ofc a lot of NPCs with ways of ignoring armor and conditional AP but I put that in a different boat personally- not the same as “just straight up the AP tag and it’s always on”

bold crystal
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(I sort of wonder if erupting shrapnel would feel better or worse if it was a nastier 'oneshot' damage effect that happened on your first attack and then ended rather than punishing every attack. but, then, I kind of don't like unbounded punisher effects from NPCs so take that musing with some salt.)

brisk flax
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"do I keep this or not" is something I did some thinking on because it is a fairly binary sort of thing

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My take on the avenger is that sans AP, the slug pistol would feel pretty anemic pre-buff, and post-buff its at a point where armor isn't as impactful so the AP kind of matters a bit less

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plus erupting shrapnel being low damage (even lower in the rebake) sort of necessitates AP, similar to the bastion's near-threat denial system

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like I could say "when revenge procs the pistol gains AP" as part of the buff, but that feels like it's too finicky

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I suspect, without a lot of firsthand evidence, that a baseline slug pistol sans AP would in some cases end up being a negligible tool outside of "a delivery vector for erupting shrapnel"

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I think that the Avenger having a modest but "impactful" offensive presence pre-revenge (low/modest damage for something with striker DNA, but that you can't shrug off) adds to the hard decision it should be forcing on players...do we ignore this guy and let them plink away with their 4 AP damage ticking up over time, or do we rip the band-aid off and try to burst this guy down before things get too nuts?

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the Specter is in sort of the opposite boat where I very specifically wanted it to be worse against armor to push it more towards a specific target selection priority as a bit of extra identity instead of just vomiting out enough damage to go "who fuckin cares"

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there's probably also an argument to make regarding the avenger's average damage over the course of a fight being a product of both its lower pre-revenge state and higher post-revenge state and thus arguably the fact that it has a "lower damage" phase could maybe even out to the same sort of "reduction" that armor would provide if it started out at its post-revenge damage but lacked AP, but that's wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy too speculative to concretely evaluate without a bunch of work and a lot of math and frankly I do not care anywhere near enough

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oh and Edict deals AP damage as well, so that's more AP

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my argument in favor of that one is that I want the Edict to be maximally compelling

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"I can tank it with armor" means the command becomes something you can sorta shrug off

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it's a similar dynamic to the Archer and now the Sentinel having Reliable damage, there's no "easy out" for ignoring the punishment choice

wheat mortar
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Just completed my Spite and Lurker tests. The Spite was on an Infiltration map so maybe not the best test case. The combination of Imprison/Edict and Enthrone made the Spite target number 1 so it fit the bill for a Defender imo.

Loved the Lurker, it was quite resilient from the Invisibility and so sticky with the on-hit effect from the whip. The players all went "oh shit" when I empowered the shroud which was a fun moment.
I might've taken some liberties with the Absolute Darkness saying that it prevented the Turret Drone's turret attack triggering on an ally within the Absolute Darkness when the drone was outside, as well as preventing Spotter 3 when the adjacent character was inside the Absolute Darkness while the spotter 3 pilot was outside

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After dodging like 5+ attacks from the invisibility and a scan they decided that the Shroud's higher e-def was worth engaging with to get the invisibility off the Lurker

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Had it paired with a Near Threat Denial system Bastion, a Solipsis Swarm Hive, and a HA blackwall Aegis on a control zone map (supply run from enhanced combat) so the blackwall closed the flank route forcing most players into the tight space where the Hive, Bastion and Lurker set up

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An optional that would let the Lurker threaten with Overwatch more could be a fun option. Maybe still 1/round but allows you to react when the players enter the shroud space rather than only when they leave

brisk flax
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"engaging upon entering threat" is, I think, something I want to keep the province of the Sentinel

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like I think it might stretch things a bit to call Vanguard 3 a "defender aspected ability" strictly because everything in the hands of players is a means to maximizing damage output, BUT I do view it as more of one than not, and I think for the lurker it steps a bit more in a direction than I'd want it to go (especially since NPCs do care more about role that way)

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even outside of that, it's pretty solidly the Sentinel rebake's big schtick

brittle cipher
indigo oasis
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imo the Lurker does not need more Overwatch methods- Defensive Shroud being a base trait gives it a good reaction + reposition ability for triggering overwatch on other characters, it's a striker not a defender, and having run an Avenger recently a regular threat 3 overwatch with a rider effect is plenty deadly

rose hamlet
brisk flax
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Like broadly I agree with that assessment mainly for the NPC side, my only qualification is that when PCs make use of it, it's often in the context of a damage facilitator/multiplier

brisk flax
brisk flax
wheat mortar
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makes sense about the overwatch identity being tied to the Sentinel, its my favourite Defender by far. I suppose i like the idea of "the shroud is a dangerous place" so having a reactive choice that is offensive seemed like a good optional idea for me but at the core of it I enjoyed how both rebaked NPCs played

wheat mortar
rose hamlet
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Yeah no I think Lurker has big Vanguard energy too

wheat mortar
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but its odd because it's slow

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outside the quick action teleport to it's first spot

brisk flax
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I even talk about the lurker as potentially being a sort of weird defender

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like, I think you COULD rework it into a state that supports that identity more

wheat mortar
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it 100% was in the battle but it got really lucky on invis rolls

brisk flax
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I personally want to cast it as more of a striker because that's what, per wallflower, it's "supposed" to be, and for me the thing about strikers isn't meandering around a point waiting for someone to fall into your trap, it's about engaging on your own terms

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wallflower's lurker is kind of bad at that mainly because the weirdness of its movement dynamic makes it unintuitively slow and cumbersome to maneuver

wheat mortar
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the map makes a big difference too

brisk flax
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"Lurker but a zone defender" is absolutely a rework I think could have legs

wheat mortar
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with an aegis using Aegis remote projector would make a fantastic forward defense point

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especially with a sentinel

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range + reposition and tech attacks were in play what seemed to be the obvious counterplay for the lurker

rose hamlet
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legit, I think Rebake Lurker falls more into "Zone taker" than "Zone defender" due to the fluidity of placing zones and losing them, but that's me

I'm personally totally here for it, because it's a neat kind of "Offensive Striker/Controller" in that way, to use Lancer's role terminology

wheat mortar
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yea you are right and that bringing a defensive ally npc is what allows you to harden the space it takes

brisk flax
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we've talked a lot about how for a lot of strikers, the key element isn't damage, it's mobility

wheat mortar
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i paired it with bastion and wasn't able to work it well, plan on using it with sentinel next time but goliath could also be a neat combo

brisk flax
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wallflower's lurker has low, restrictive mobility and a weird sort of feast-or-famine defensive nature, so it feels like it got caught between two worlds and doesn't fit in either

neon blaze
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I've managed to fold a lurker into my next comp so I'm def. eager to see how the rebake handles, especially after my ... well, middling experience with them otherwise

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both as a player and GM

subtle nacelle
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Oh man, the Strider's Swap kit is a lot easier to write in paper than in an LCP. I kind of wanna split it into three:

  • Swap Kit, Trait, rules
  • Swap Bonus, Quick Action
  • Kit Bonus, Protocol
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I wish i could model it like the Chomolungma's invade package

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waaaait, so the Marksman Kit is composed of the Ranger Long Rifle, the Flash Grenade, and Adaptive Camouflage? all together?

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then the Skirmisher kit being Explosive Carbine, Reposition and Smoke Grenade?

bold crystal
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yes.

subtle nacelle
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... I wish NPC lcp's could model this better...

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Im gonna do one Giant Wall of (well formatted) Text for Swap Kit, including both bonuses

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I would love some feedback on it, specifically

brisk flax
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How does Wallflower's lcp handle it? Because kits there are also composed of several components (a weapon, a reaction or system, etc) and a swap bonus

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the only new thing baseline would be the kit bonus

vale crescent
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Its annoying to handle

brisk flax
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lmao awesome

subtle nacelle
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semantically, Swap Kit is super nested:

Swap Kit
- swap rules
- swap bonus
- kit bonus
- Kits:
  - Skirmisher:
    - ...
  - Marksman:
    - ...
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LCPs for NPCs however, are strictly flat

vale crescent
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I could easily see swap kit include swap bonus and kit bonus, then both the kits be seperste traits

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- swap kit
   - swap bonus
   - kit bonus
- skirmisher
    ...
- marksman
    ...
subtle nacelle
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Makes sense. And even though the kits can't make actual reference to the equipment, At least they can make a bullet point list about them

brisk flax
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Yeah I think that should be fine

subtle nacelle
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hmm quick question then, should the bonuses live on the kits? like in the PDF?

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each kits would be faux traits then

vale crescent
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Luuuuckily, whatever you do it'll be easier than the LCP for wallflower 🥲

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Just because the rebakes optionals won't include 4 new traits

subtle nacelle
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I once scanned a core strider and my eyes bled

brittle cipher
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this is why players don't scan
fear of cognitohazards

vale crescent
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Strider in the same combat as a veteran ultra... who has the worst statblock

brittle cipher
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UltraVet Strider

vale crescent
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😩

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Custom strider ultra with ultra traits and systems in each state would be a pain but be fun

ancient forge
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Feels like if there was just a way to toggle a trait as active, and then to flag other npc traits/weapons as hidden or something when a given trait is inactive, that could make the strider much more manageable

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But that’s probably more a #comp-con or #lancer-vtt topic

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The actual gui implementation of respecting those in the respective programs would be much more involved, I’m sure

brisk flax
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I wonder if there's a way, some dumb hack, to code the Strider as two entirely separate NPCs that you switch between with a toggle

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but that would probably be a fucking nightmare in conjunction with templates, even if it was possible

ancient forge
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In foundry you could probably just whip up two separate actors like that manually, but then you’d need a way to link their statuses

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Hp and conditions and whatnot

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And that would, yeah, probably mean a nightmare of macros and modules

brisk flax
subtle nacelle
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it would not be easier, because of that necessary linking that would need to happen. As it stands, it's crowded, but it should be as clear as can be. I do wish i had nested features :((

ancient forge
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I think they mean easier compared to doing the same thing in comp/con, which isn’t as moddable

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Not in comparison to how it already works in foundry

subtle nacelle
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faair

flint hollow
# vale crescent Its annoying to handle

Can confirm.
I have to do the extra effort to make sure that traits/abilities that are of the same kit are indeed next to each others in the "layout" of the Foundry sheet to make sure I don't misrecall what ability is tied to what active kit

errant needle
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I did have a bit of a stumble with Striders in Foundry when I noticed that the text didn't actually mention which grenade went with which kit

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but then I realized it ordered the systems and such in their entry so that you had marksman kit's entire stuff first and then skirmisher's entire stuff second

subtle nacelle
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this draft im working on is definitely already better w.r.t. that

brisk flax
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whether it's EASY is highly debatable (not really, the answer is "it isn't")

bold crystal
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foundry can also do things with display that compcon isn't set up to, even if you're not outright swapping stuff.

smoky bluff
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Wait, we can technically have 2 classes for strider and swap them whenever they swap kits no?

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Btw is there like a github for the lancer wallflower lcp?

brisk flax
smoky bluff
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I mean it does sort of make the process easier on foundry ttrpg but yeah the other points mention would make the logisitic harder than it needs to be

brisk flax
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In Foundry you could maybe do it easier but still not easily

subtle nacelle
brisk flax
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and I'm not going to assume Foundry use is mandatory for the rebake

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Anyway, I'm copacetic with whatever solution the lcp team settles on that makes their lives easiest

modern jackal
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Was the Rebake lcp updated since its release? I noticed the Rebaked Berserker's harpoon cannon lacked the AP tag in comp/con but has it in the pdf

subtle nacelle
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the latest wallflower LCP is v1.3.6 and it implements the pdf 1.2. Im working on the pdf 1.3

brisk flax
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It will be at some point, but probably not immediately

subtle nacelle
modern jackal
subtle nacelle
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Hey @brisk flax , can you still swap kits, albeit without Swap Bonus, if you choose the Kit Bonus?

brisk flax
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You can choose NOT to gain the Kit bonus and then NOT swap kits if for some reason you really wanted to

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but kit bonuses are phrased as "may" anyway, so

subtle nacelle
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My brain is short-circuiting parsing this, but if it's just me i wont worry

brisk flax
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You don't get both

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If you choose the kit bonus, you are making a commitment that says "I will give up being able to swap kits this turn in exchange for a special bonus freebie"

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if that restriction WASN'T in place, you would be able to constantly gain the "stayed in one form" bonus while also changing forms which is the opposite of what's intended

subtle nacelle
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got it. my 2 cent feedback is the wording, not the mechanics, might need better wording to convey this.

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I do like how the swap kit ended up mechanically

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my gm has some feedback texts we're working on, to send your way later

brisk flax
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I'm not really sure how to make it clearer than "if the Strider chooses to gain the Kit Bonus, then they can't activate this trait [Swap Kit]"

subtle nacelle
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"can't activate this trait to swap kits (and thus gain ...)"
the current wording made me think only the Swap Bonus was restricted, not the whole swap kit action.

indigo oasis
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Wait it’s very explicit oops

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I guess I misread it

indigo oasis
brisk flax
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"You can swap to the new kit BUT you don't get bonus B if you got bonus A" strikes me as being potentially much more confusing for people than simply going "you can swap or not swap, and you get your bonus based on what you choose"

subtle nacelle
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that second wording is more understandable than the current one

indigo oasis
eternal flare
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I’ve been slowly integrating the wallflower rebakes into the combats I’m running and I’ve got some info on the Lurker and Spite now.

  • I really like the Rebake Lurker it’s delightfully scary in its element and the counter play is accessible and engaging
  • I think I was missing something with the Spite it didn’t feel terribly threatening or engaging to fight, maybe some of the optionals help? The full tech heat virus thing just didn’t… seem to threaten people
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I think a lot of it was that I was at LL1 where the self heat is low and the heat caps high

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And being an Elite doesn’t help the Spite much

brisk flax
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I confess, I'm not quite sure what I really want to do with the spite at this point

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From all accounts of the feedback I've received, it does seem that the Imprison/Edict element feels good to utilize and that the revision to Enthrone is working, but it still doesn't feel like a very "active" NPC

indigo oasis
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Nothing wrong with it being a little more passive to be fair

brisk flax
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Not inherently, but "this thing just sort of exists" is one of the issues surrounding the wallflower implementation as well

subtle nacelle
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pleeeease give me reviews on the new Swap Kit

vale crescent
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Spite is very bizarre

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After so long after it... like, my players are still waving their fists at that spite

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Its left a remark, on them...

indigo oasis
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Woudl giving spite a reaction of some kind make it more or less passive, do you think?

vale crescent
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It still doesnt have much to do on its turn with a reaction

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Unless it had an action directly correlated

indigo oasis
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Hm, thought so just thought I’d pitch it

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Probably a bad idea, but perhaps making Edict a Quick action instead of a protocol?

brisk flax
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That's come up multiple times but frankly it doesn't do anything interesting

indigo oasis
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Yeah it’d just be taxing it for something it’s guaranteed to do anyway

brisk flax
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"giving someone something more to do on their turn by imposing an action tax on a thing" isn't actually addressing that issue

young turtle
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give it a gun clearly

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/s

indigo oasis
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Idk when I used it it felt passive but in a good way

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The same way a Sniper with Moving Target feels passive- it’s a threat of gunshot rather than an actual gunshot

errant needle
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I'm wondering about if like... giving it something close range. As it is, the "optimal" loop for a Spite is pick a target, Imprison, then Enthrone and sit back, maybe tossing out Lock On/FragSigs, with nothing to incentivize it doing anything but sitting at the back of the pack. I'm kind of wondering if there might be room for it to have something else to punish people in close range with that incentivizes the Spite to consider the risk/reward of getting closer to its targets, which could make it easier for PCs to clear Imprison, but they have to clear the bad touch zone in close proximity to the Spite to do so. I'd kind of think it'd be something it can't do while Enthroned as well, just to avoid "you jogged across the map to get next to this thing and the last five feet are double hell while it can still shield its buddies". A defensive Spite and an aggressive Spite would have slightly different choices.

brisk flax
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While the sentiment isn't a bad one, I actually think one of the big problems with the wallflower spite is that it's pulled in two different directions of long range versus close range, as seen with imprison etc and enthrone

errant needle
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The other thought is if it's core thing is being a heat manipulator, might give it additional support options for its buddies. Some kind of remote heat clear function. Sort of the opposite to the way the Support's optionals have NPCs clump up with it to clear extra heat with Empowered Cloud

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Which would possibly synergize with Limitless NPCs so they can afford to overcharge more often while the Spite is playing heat sink.

vale crescent
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So, the original spites stuff they can do is apply more imprisons... and the thing is once people are imprisoned it kept its options open by doubling the energy damage. And as silly as this is, atleast it had an action to do outside of lock on invade...

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Stupid idea: target gains imprison, gains 1 heat every turn... imprison target again and heat gain increases?

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Like... it feels, is that any better than just locking on invading but also leads to RAPID heat climb on multi activation spites

neon blaze
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ultimately it might be more proactive to get to the roots of why, despite otherwise having a fair amount of levers to pull and engage with, the Spite is still feeling background

is it the actual framework thats not delivering? or is it the effects and potential punishment it can meaningfully inflict that mean it isn't punching at the weight it should?

i've obviously not used the Spite much before - not even the standard Wallflower one, tbh - but speculating on "what ifs" will only help so much, especially if they end up retreading already existing ground (such as the range banding, and the scaling heat)

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the only things I can really say at a glance is that Imprison and Enthrone are both "switches" - i.e, actions it takes once and then let sit - but that hasn't really undermined NPCs before. hell, thats like the entire idea behind the Aegis in fact, so its evidently not unworkable to have an NPC set up and then sit back

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so whats the catch

errant needle
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If I had to guess, I'd think maybe the Spite feels more aggressive in "vibes" and so its passive play loop feels unsatisfying?

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Though I'm not sure if cranking up its heat aggression would be an improvement.

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Being able to remotely turn PCs into reactor overloads with minimal risk isn't going to be super fun to deal with

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I do feel the Aegis is another place to look at philosophically though

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like you said, it's very passive mostly, and yet doesn't get "stage hazard vibes" mentions

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Even if Ring of Fire can literally turn it into a stage hazard

trail pivot
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probably because of the gun tbh

rose hamlet
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Honestly CRB Aegis tends to suffer for the same reasons IME, even with the gun. Needs something to do with its hands

bold crystal
rose hamlet
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It’s why I’d be fine conceptually with Spite spending a quick action to “sustain” Imprison even if it’s a strict “nerf”

vale crescent
rose hamlet
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Jammed too, since tech

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But like, this is theoryland for me. I should run a rebake spite soon

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I’ve got other NPCs that need a dance too

vale crescent
rose hamlet
vale crescent
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Real 😭

errant needle
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I'm planning to run a Spite and wondering if my Black Witch player is just going to 'lawl' and turn E-Warfare off. lol

vale crescent
errant needle
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The other thing I'm planning to test is how double Lurkers work

trail pivot
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im not sure that the Aegis "suffers" per say, like yeah it can idle if there's nothing in range but i don't think thats too bad a thing

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not every npc needs to be the specter or witch levels of busy

indigo oasis
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The big thing making the rebake Aegis non-passive is probably the need to stabilize tbh

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You can’t just do that for Spite tho because then you start to blur the lines between it and the Aegis in terms of identity

rose hamlet
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It’s fine, it’s a “passive archetype” like how “melee beater” is an archetype

rose hamlet
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Like yeah sure you don’t need to use those actions on a passive thing like the Aegis, but the real issue is the psychological issue, because no other NPC in the game works off a paradigm of “actually don’t use your actions, just be a feature of the map”

It’s a weird juxtaposition

indigo oasis
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Hm. Maybe this is stealing from… I don’t remember who someone did this with a rebake witch, but… Loading systems?

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Nah what would you even use that on?

trail pivot
sour mist
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The one time I had an aegis I had to move it every turn to get it and it's friends closer to the objective zone

smoky bluff
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I mean, Spite does have 20 sensors, if you don't invade in it, your aren't really using the spite

trail pivot
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i can understand that, but also tbh? i just start my aegis on the objective zone, or in the path to the objective zone

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i dont make aegis comps if i need the whole comp to move

wheat mortar
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have you considered changing edict to inflicting 1d3 heat instead of damage for the rebake spite?

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that would give it some more of control while helping the imprision ramp up faster

indigo oasis
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Variable heat is… rough is the thing, and kinda flies a bit in the face of Lancer’s math

brisk flax
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yeah for one thing I don't want to do variable stuff on the NPC end without extremely specific reasons (the variability of the 1d6 heat NPC overcharge is there to provide that exact randomness to add texture to combats) but also I don't want to turn the spite into a massive heatgunner because that's a role already handled by the witch

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I am not particularly interested in making Imprison "meaner," I'm aware there are areas it can be less impactful or more ignorable as not everyone cares about "can't clear heat," but "the way to make imprison more impactful" already exists in the rebake and it's Edict

indigo oasis
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Hear me out… Danger Zone interaction? Aka an effect where the prereq is “Target is in Danger Zone”. Maybe on Enthrone to make the abilities “talk” with each other more

brisk flax
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that's WHY Edict exists

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Edict is the "this makes Imprison more of an actual menace to people coming and going" adjustment, and is frankly one of the more successful elements so far

indigo oasis
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Edict is great

brisk flax
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also, I think I should clarify that as much as this channel IS sort of there to be open-ended NPC redesign theorycrafting, I'm not really looking to have suggestions pitched to me outside the context of "I did a playtest and I think these are the issues I grasped"

indigo oasis
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Oops sorry

brisk flax
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Right now, I actually do not think the Spite's mechanics (how Imprison or Edict work, Enthrone, etc) are in need of significant adjustment. The one presiding issue that continues to be suggested is that the Spite feels too "passive"

"One-note" isn't the right framework for it, because lots of NPCs are very one-note. A Bombard isn't doing anything with its turn that isn't "I shoot my gun" unless something has gone very wrong, though there at least the Bombard is picking where to target every turn. An NPC that does a basic thing and that's it is fine and not something I'm particularly concerned about, but the Spite's setup currently is one where its core elements are set-and-forget rather than an ongoing active element of decision, even if the decision in the case of things like the Bombard is pretty shallow (where do I put the pie plate? wherever I can cover 2+ people, the end)

wheat mortar
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Cyan's experience mirrored mine with the exception of one player hit by edict running straight at it

brisk flax
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It's also worth noting that this isn't inherently a dealbreaker to an NPC so it's not like what I'm looking at is a fundamental inability to do the job

wheat mortar
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so it was clearly a priority for the team to engage with it that way

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i think it fills the role of a sitrep objective defender really well

indigo oasis
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Even without factoring the Heat Ramp Up, when I played the spite there as a very “sunk cost” fallacy approach where I didn’t want to move Imprison because the target was so close to overheating i couldn’t quick now (even though I should’ve in hindsight). Even if I didn’t actively show that I was making a choice to not move the Imprison though, it still felt like every time its turn came around I had to consider “do I move Enthrone or keep it?” In that sense it didn’t feel very passive to me

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It’s just the alternative actions I took had nothing to do with its kit at all

vale crescent
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Probably differs wildly from party to party

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Idk if its any more than existing NPCs cos that can be said about any NPC

neon blaze
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especially since the newer Edict if anything ironically gives the Spite more of a say in what happens by establishing a very overt and flexible punishment system compared to the old Spite which just throws out Imprison and Seize and calls it a day

indigo oasis
#

Who suggested the Spite feels to passive anyway? this is rhetorical don’t answer

neon blaze
#

i might have to try it myself tbh but i already got Lurker and Strider on the plate for a campaign finale and after that i hope to not run more lancer games for a bit

indigo oasis
#

Imo the Spite never felt passive so I’ve been confused on that bit of feedback

brisk flax
#

because it doesn't really move much, it has multiple self-immobilizes, it's just a big block of HP that zaps you with the Fuck You virus

manic sky
#

The angry radio tower

brisk flax
#

it doesn't REALLY care about positioning in many ways that matter, it's not doing a lot of important moment-to-moment target selection, etc

indigo oasis
#

For the reason being that the Rebake came out exactly when I planned to use it, and also it having Crush Targeting as an optional pissed me off (as well as being able to Imprison multiple characters)

indigo oasis
smoky bluff
#

i think the problem with the spite currently is that it does not have an easy way to climb up surfaces

errant needle
#

give the spite a teleport that costs 2 self heat

pseudo merlin
#

Ran a session today. The rebake NPCs are so much fun

brisk flax
#

Nice

pseudo merlin
#

Fire and Maneuver on the Archer let it step in and out of the control point being a nuisance, and I had a berserker grab a Sagarmatha and carry it off the point

brisk flax
#

the lack of a real overt "grappling guy" in the core NPC roster is something I've always felt was a bit of a missed opportunity, and making some of the cast bigger as well as giving the Berserker those extras was a sort of roundabout way of broadening that out

#

Overdrive Servos in particular has caught a lot of people off-guard in very rude (and very funny) ways

#

The closest you have is the cataphract which I've always viewed as somewhat, idk, grappling (ambiguous)

#

Impale and Electrified Lasso are clearly grappling facilitators, but the cataphract itself isn't especially tuned for grappling

#

more "grappling as a means to an end" instead of "guy who fuckin loves grappling"

errant needle
#

Yeah, I've got a plan to use some Cataphracts later on, and I kinda just went in and bumped them up a size point specifically so that they could grapple the Tortuga and Lancaster in the party rather than just kinda...immediately failing due to the size difference.

#

Just because Electrified Lasso just struck me as very fun to use with the Cataphract's huge speed

brisk flax
#

I don't think that "being size 1" means you shouldn't EVER grapple, and I think the cataphract with its huge speed is in a prime position to do some grapple-kidnapping even outside of impale, BUT it's true that the PC roster has a lot more in the way of big boys plus access to Synthetic Muscle Netting

#

The Cataphract is decent enough at it, but I think giving the Sentinel and Breacher a size bump plus giving the Berserker Overdrive Servos broadens out the portfolio a bit more

#

there's also kidnapping people with the specter which still works

opal folio
#

i've never tried the Abduction Specter, that sounds extremely evil

#

i think the funniest possible solution would be a template or feature that lets any unit specialise in grappling tbh

#

i want to see a Leech do the Raiden vs. Ray move

errant needle
#

Install Sabin.exe

indigo oasis
brisk flax
#

yeah supreme melee in the rebake is much more specifically a Titanomachy Mesh style "better at grappling and ramming" thing

#

Also the Marine template does have Captive Spike

manic sky
#

I will always appreciate the Ogre in Suldan for having the can react/boost while grappling thing.

indigo oasis
#

Captive Spike is badass as hell how did I never see it?

#

I’m gonna torture my Zheng player with that lmao

dapper plover
#

-# Which book is the Marine from, again?

indigo oasis
indigo oasis
#

Have the Lurkers been Sunzi tested yet?

brisk flax
#

That is, I don't think there are many new interactions there

rose hamlet
#

Maybe just Defensive Shroud being base kit now?

#

Like if you teleport a Lurker to a Blink anchor the Lurker at least has a chance to put up a Shroud before getting completely wailed on

indigo oasis
#

There’s also Kinetic Transference

#

Defensive Shroud having a teleport also changes tbings

#

It essentially has 2 teleports baked into its base kit now with a third as an optional, as opposed to just one in the base kit

#

Also idk if it’s possible to like… Glitch Kinetic Transference using Blink Anchor. Because it specifically draws the line in reference to the space the Lurker teleports to, but if the Sunzi changes the space it’s teleported to, it can become a bit of a “GM has to figure out how to run that because how do you codify anything to account for that???”

indigo oasis
smoky bluff
#

who's being kidnapped again?

brisk flax
#

think of it thusly:
1). the lurker picks a shroud zone
2). you create the line
3). the lurker teleports
4). all the other line stuff happens (damage, someone getting yanked)

#

3 and 4 aren't necessarily going in that SPECIFIC order, but "the lurker teleports into the zone" is not a precondition for the other stuff, which you can think of as an extremely fancy grenade going off

smoky bluff
#

So basically, the Line still happens and is a Line 10 damage save, all the effects still happen but the Lurker ends up teleporting to the blink anchor instead

brisk flax
#

The very first part of Kinetic Transfer is picking a zone and drawing the line

#

everything else is going to take place after that

#

for blink anchor to truly mess with it, it would have to be "the lurker teleports to a shroud zone; next, draw a line" or something

indigo oasis
#

Ya know, looking at the Rebake Lurker again, I don’t mean this in a bad way but it definitely feels like it either matches or usurps Operator in the role of “Teleporter NPC”

brisk flax
#

Not really a lot that can be done about that one

indigo oasis
#

Yeah it’s not a bad thing it’s just sorta a thing

#

To be fair Operator has Strike & Fade + 4 teleport optionals upon re-review so it more than balances out

rose hamlet
#

Teleportation is not a monopoly

indigo oasis
#

Never said it should be

#

I just forgot how many teleportation optionals operator had and only recalled it having 1 teleportation base feature compared to Lurker’s 2

rose hamlet
#

ran a custom gauntlet today with some rebakes; nothing Wallflower so nothing actionable, but I was overall happy how things went down

#
  • Bastions felt like good cover islands, though I definitely thought "damn I wish I had stack up" at least once. But they felt good on the map I used, for the most part. Players liked the buddy reload on the grenade launcher
  • Thoroughly enjoyed the Operators, ran them with Telefrag and they were still good nuisances flitting in and out of Line of Sight. Paired them with a homebrew NPC that gave them AP so the Reliable still packed a punch vs. some high-armor PCs
  • Witch was threatening; I got off a max-heat Immolate vs. a 6 HC White Witch so that felt exciting haha
  • Ronin was an interesting change; Ronin's mark was a lil fiddly but I appreciated the removal of crit damage on the sword. It hit hard on several occasions. Got off a Charged Blade on a Gilgamesh for some decent damage, but Superior By Design blocked the Impair lol
#

Overall they're a good bunch, happy how they turned out

brisk flax
#

Nice

#

In a universe where I was more ambitious with reworking core functionality, I could see there being an argument for ditching something like the bastion's shield and baking something like Stack Up in by default, I can see it being a very compelling take, though part of me thinks it's fine to have multiple optionals vying for the sort of "iconic" slot that Deathcounter usually holds

opal folio
#

i think the MBT's totally modular design is very cool and i'd like to see it extended to more npcs in the future; it would obviously be, as you said, a massive job to backport something like that to the existing classes

indigo oasis
#

Eh. Personal disagree- I think for Lancer’s heavy tactical focus having NPCs have very tight, focused roles makes it more important to not do that. I think MBT is allowed to get away with it due to being codified as a 1/scene NPC and having more focus gimmicks going on than just its weapons, as well as the fact it isn’t actually a mech

#

Honestly, I think it feels bad to hear, but MBT and Monstrosity’s designs are extremely similar

#

Both are about equally modular, and while Monstrosity doesn’t have the same codification of this fact, it does demand a smaller amount of deployments per Sitrep akin to the MBT due to tech immunity and lacking a heat cap and also having a unique structure table

#

Their classifications as “not mechs” are what allow them to break the design norm- they’re the only ones representing that NPC type as a purposeful scarcity and thus need to carry the weight of multiple classes of NPC all in one class

smoky bluff
#

If only squads could boast the same, thank goodness for Reconcus Squad kits, can't run squads without it at this point

indigo oasis
#

Exactly

opal folio
brisk flax
#

Yeah BROADLY my approach to the MBT is still largely focused on being striker/artillery, but I give it some more modularity because of its setpiece nature, it's meant to be a one-off with special mechanics, and consequently I gave it some flexibility there to play better with a variety of comps (it can lean into static long-range shooting, midrange, close-in aggression, etc)

indigo oasis
#

This is a mech game- if the players are fighting an MBT instead of more mechs it better be dramatic

brisk flax
#

"special units" are a case where I think you can break some rules, though I would still probably suggest that such NPCs should still have a readily identifiable sort of role to fill, the MBT is a big brawling damage dealer, it will never be a controller or a support, etc

#

Also, from a "getting the game to the table" perspective, every NPC being akin to the MBT would massively hit GMs with an insane amount of system mastery to learn and analysis paralysis

#

one of the great strengths of lancer's NPC roster is that you can, if you want, just grab a half dozen NPCs, apply zero optionals, put them on the table, and make something that works

#

I think you need the ability to say "this is a no-frills [NPC]" and go

indigo oasis
#

I do like how you designed the MBT like that as an abnormal NPC- it was entirely possible to design it like a normal “good out the gate” NPC but giving it special treatment helps keep Lancer in theme as a mecha game

brisk flax
#

It's also a measure to keep the MBT fresh across multiple encounters so it doesn't start to feel "same-y" too quickly

vale crescent
#

The shield was used to bash us around in overwatch and attacks at close range, friendly interdiction was used and influenced my decision making at points, the veteran trait was used well too meaning some PPG weakling support had 3 armour which was annoying for us (not a bad thing, from a gameplay perspective it was good) and siege armour/resistance to aoe templates nearby by also came up once or twice... basically every part of the bastions kit came up in play

rose hamlet
#

Yeah I did my damndest to remember those passives haha

The heavy shield had its moments, the prone was a good threatening add to it. I just had the misfortune of having a floating (read: prone immune) Sloped Plating Tortuga as my only Overwatch target in this T2 game lol

vale crescent
#

You smacked me when it was relevant, but I just succeeded the save

prime urchin
#

That's what the Gilg is for, after all

rose hamlet
brisk flax
vale crescent
#

Yeah, makes sense

brisk flax
#

the shield is something that feels slantwise more like a flavor thing, like "the bastion is an off-brand drake, so it needs a shield"

indigo oasis
#

I think there is value in the Bastion having a tool for “objective Defense”, but the Shield feels like a bit of a stapled on way to go about it

smoky bluff
#

I find it sort of ok-ish for gaining free resistance against a player while standing on an objective but not having enough teeth to greatly threaten the player, which is where the friendly interdiction secondary target comes in.

#

without a second element, the bastion is just sort of a damge reduction sponge where shooting at it when you are the interdiction target or the guy behind it benefiting from it's hard cover bonus is counterproductive of your time.

#

I'm not exactly sure what kind of gun you would give it other than a shield tbh

#

a spear?

indigo oasis
smoky bluff
#

Not the weapon, my bad, I was mainly talking about how friendly Interdiction feels like the main tool in the bastion's Toolkit to contribute to the defending of the striker or artillery npc that will be doing most of the damage and that everything else just feels like an add on feature because the bastion needed weapons

indigo oasis
#

Yeah Interdiction feels fine it’s the melee weapon that feels kinda tacked on

#

I’ve personally gotten more utility out of grappling and ramming with my Bastions

smoky bluff
#

Ramming + heavy combat shield feels sort of wasteful since Ramming already does knockback but it works, even with the rebake, I find it useful enough to be a great strategy to throw at if I needed my bastion to control space and contribute to some damage.

#

I think the bastion sort of have a grenade Launcher as a weapon is because it sort of uses it to discourage players from copying it's own tactics with a player with guardian? It is blast 1 arcing. So in theory, the bastion would be acting as cover for their allies while trying to force the enemy to get out of theirs and their guardian pal with the grenade Launcher.

#

The only downside is that it's fairly low damage unless hitting a crowd, which it can do if the players are trying to stand behind another player with guardian, and loading, which it can always do since it's main function is friendly Interdiction, which is a protocol. Giving it a full action to stabilise and reload.

indigo oasis
#

Hm- idk if this a problem worth fixing or not with the Lurker (as both the wallflower + rebakes have this issue), but because the Lurker places a Shroud upon deployment and as a protocol, it basically places 2 shrouds from the exact same position for its first turn in combat.

Now with the old lurker, with the deployment range being so small + the Lurker being frail as hell without a shroud, the first zone would almost always be where the Lurker is while the second helps with advancing. But the increased range + durability outside a shroud made me notice that’s not exactly necessary anymore, especially with the inclusion of Defensive Shroud as a base kit optional with a teleport. Meaning the Lurker is more encouraged to actually put its deployment shroud as far away as possible. They either warp to it for free so their next shroud can be deployed even further away, or they take their turn and place their next shroud in a nearby location while they warp to the Deployment Shroud.

This is all theory ofc, it just occurred to me while making my Lurker combat, but it does make me wonder if the “deployment shroud” being part of the base kit is necessary anymore.

#

We’ll see how it holds up when I run the combat- cover is aplenty so as long as there’s no one-shot Monarchs (2 shot is fine thanks to, again, Defensive Shroud), so it’ll be interesting to put to the test.

subtle nacelle
#

Question about the Strider's Recon Loadout:

The Strider's Kit Bonuses gain the following effects:

  • ...
  • Skirmisher Kit Bonus: The Strider may choose an allied character ....
    Is this addition effect part of the Skimisher's Kit bonus protocol action? or are you free to do this at any time during your turn?
brisk flax
#

The Kit Bonuses gain those effects, and Kit Bonuses are protocols

#

so for Recon Loadout, the Skirmisher Kit Bonus goes from
As a protocol, the Strider may move 2 spaces. This movement ignores engagement and doesn't provoke reactions.
to
As a protocol, the Strider may move 2 spaces. This movement ignores engagement and doesn't provoke reactions. The Strider may choose an allied character within Range 5, and that character may immediately move 2 spaces. This movement ignores engagement and doesn't provoke reactions.

subtle nacelle
#

Thank you!

brisk flax
#

same goes for the marksman kit bonus and the flare gun it gains, you can as a protocol A). lock on to someone and B). launch a flare

#

and because these are similtaneous effects, you get to choose the order they occur in

trim path
#

@subtle nacelle I get a 404 error when I click the link to the LCP Github (Specifically the default one, the Wallflower one seems to work fine). I wanted to ask to try to figure out whether this was an issue on my end or if there's something wrong with the link

trim path
#

(I have just now seen that the full version is published, which I'll assume to be the reason behind this- might want to update the pins for that though)

viral wadi
#

I don't think the github is public anymore, now that the full version is out.

brisk flax
#

correct

#

my understanding is that if you have issues with the lcp that you feel need to be reported, you should DM and/or ping Eleonor about them

#

Wallflower lcp is open because that's in progress and accepting feedback and changes (give me feedback)

shrewd lava
#

What do you mean too much gun? How do I refund?
But really, great work! It's covers (almost) everything that didn't feel right as a player, and even more things as a first time gm.
Really looking forward to trying it in a campaign.

23658f037d6c482c.png
brisk flax
vale crescent
#

:O THE FUNNY NUMBER

wise creek
#

Gotta make it free now. No more payments

brisk flax
#

Also, I went ahead and did this. I haven't decided if I feel like revisiting the other Suldan NPCs or not

📎 Conscript_Rebake.pdf
indigo oasis
opal folio
#

5 Trillion Dead Multiattackers

vale crescent
#

If you think about it, elites are multi-attackers because they attack you twice in a round
If you think about it, limitless are multi-attackers because they can overcharge to multi-attack you
If you think about it, having multiple enemies is multi-attackers because you get attacked multiple times

#

I fixed lancer's combat by removing NPCs

#

Sitreps now take place on the board with no hostiles, I introduce challenges by making a 40 long map of difficult terrain gauntlet, with this new meta my players are now equipped with 6 agility duskwings with as many movement systems as possible. I fixed the issue of everyone picking up hull and engineeringg because players don't take damage

#

I solved violence

manic sky
#

I feel like if I did that my players would just enact violence on me instead.

twin reef
#

I miss the loading cone, but I can see why you removed it. It's too complex.

brisk flax
#

I think my thing is that it's less the complexity and more that at the time, I felt the ability to have more offensive punch served as a sort of aggro draw, that is the Conscripts being able to do a spread of modest damage like that made them more "serious" threats, and thus more of a potential target priority, playing into the idea of them being bullet catchers for more important units

#

However, I think that while evocative, this implementation was less direct and more hopeful, that is it's a premise that can't really be relied upon to function that way

#

In looking to play that angle up, the gun now letting the conscript move closer to allies is a more direct way to make Cannon Fodder easier to use

rose hamlet
#

Okay so I ran Spites and Avengers on an LL6 "push 6 buttons" sitrep today.

Spites

Imprison + Edict was neat and weighed on the players' decisions, which I appreciated. The White Witch player felt they could afford to take hits from Edict/Enthrone but also felt that the damage was enough to force them to respect the Spite's threat. For my first Spite, the rotation was Imprison Turn 1 > Enthrone + Invade biggest threat Turn 2 > //Jammed// Enthrone something else after the first thing died + Move + Boost to objective Turn 3. I did buff the Spites' speed to 3, but that's mostly just my personal preference. It largely didn't matter.

I do like having Invade be their "Second Default Quick Action", though I imagine it may be awkward if the Spite has no reason to move Enthrone or Imprison? Worked out in this case though.

I ultimately deployed 3 spites; only 2 ever took actions.

Avengers

Avengers rolled surprisingly poorly, but IMO that's okay! Not a lot of Erupting Shrapnel as a result; missed every shot with Judgement Shotguns too lol. The PCs were all packing significant amounts of Agility, and it paid off for them with even just soft cover as defense. Constraining their attack bonuses is working well for rewarding Agility! I deployed 3 Avengers total, but only 1 thing died the entire fight (out of range of Revenge) so no Vengeance today

#

PC party was a Melee Executioner/Duelist White Witch, Missile Rack Raleigh, Impaler Minotaur, and Defender/Support Kutuzov, Map was 20x20 with Zero-G but also winding big obstructions, objective was complete in 3 Rounds + 1 PC turn, only NPC casualty was "Slo-Mo", the Elite Veteran Barricade

#

Players saw "Drag Down on Base Kit" and said "This cannot continue"

#

(The Spiked Cube + Remote Deployers was neat and did wind up eating a PC action to force a boost after failing the save)

brisk flax
#

Three spites in one combat? Holy moly

rose hamlet
#

Like I said, only 2 actually acted haha

#

Players had PEBCAC to blunt the theoretical worst of it but only used it once, on one of my own homebrew Tech Actions

#

(I would’ve deployed 3 spites regardless of pebcac, I just ultimately wasn’t worried)

brisk flax
#

Sorry, it's been a long day and I basically just got back

#

The question/dilemma of "Spite rotations" has been a persistent "is this a problem or not?" quandary, one which is hard to evaluate at least so far. I removed the scaling on Imprison's ticking heat to make it feel less like you're losing out by changing targets, but it does remain a bit of an open question whether it will feel worthwhile to shift targets even given that it allows you to curate who gets stuck abiding by Edicts

#

I'm not sure I feel bad about Invades, Lock On, and curating Enthrone be the Spite's "uptime" much of the time, BUT it is true that Spites may benefit less strongly from things like the Elite template as "take two turns" doesn't really do much for them in that regard

#

(I'm not as concerned about Ultra Spites because you can just take your own special abilities on top of everything else to spend your extra turns on, at that point you're the one making the sandwich)

brisk flax
#

It is fair to say, I think (after 30+ minutes of staring at a wall and dissociating) that the Spite as an NPC is fairly "passive," putting a thing on someone and then tightening that noose while also being fairly static in terms of location, being slow and not really giving as much of a shit about movement, and this is something I think has sort of persisted across both wallflower and this current rebake version to some extent

#

The very nature of Imprison as a kind of persistent debuff sort of engenders a kind of passivity in that you aren't actively cycling through abilities or utilizing short-term conditions, you are afflicting someone (sometimes multiple someones) and then just letting nature take its course

brisk flax
#

the flipside of this is: the spite already had three active baseline abilities (imprison, edict, and enthrone) even if several of them are more on the "passive" end of the spectrum, and three feels like the upper bound of what an NPC really ought to have in terms of "things you have to actually do"

#

the witch also only has three, for instance, plus one passive trait

rose hamlet
# brisk flax the flipside of this is: the spite already had three active baseline abilities (...

Yeah no I’m happy with the number of things Spite has available baseline. They’re hefty abilities too, so it certainly doesn’t need more.

Throwing Default Tech Actions in as filler is frankly fine, thematic for Spite, and good value. Though, I guess a consideration could be whether Edict could be a Quick Action instead of a protocol if filling the turns is a concern?

One last thing to note was that it felt a little odd to me that Edict only lasted for the next enemy turn? I understand why (keeping the Spite from going first one round and last the next), but it meant that I needed to take the Spite’s turn before the Imprisoned target’s turn or else lose out on Edict for a round. I don’t know if that’s intended, figured I’d mention it

brisk flax
#

"Until the end of the target's next turn" is how most debuffs work on lancer

fiery canyon
#

Where can I find the lcp for these?

brisk flax
fiery canyon
#

Thank you.

brisk flax
# rose hamlet Yeah no I’m happy with the number of things Spite has available baseline. They’r...

So to elaborate on the latter part, I get the point (that an Imprisoned/Edict-ed character might have multiple turns before the Spite goes again), but I think that if Edict was keyed to the Spite's turn in that way it would potentially cause more questions regarding how it works, as it's a more "active" sort of debuff (one that forces particular behavior rather than just Shredded or whatever)...does the Edict target have to keep doing the same thing on each of their turns, can it be changed, etc

#

It's possible I'm overthinking this, and because edict is keyed to a protocol it does mean start-of-spite's-next-turn dovetails nicely into that

#

if someone wants to run it that way and see what it works out like I don't mind

indigo oasis
#

I do like things that make turn order become a tactical problem to solve, plus the Spite can always move Imprison to a character who hasn’t gone yet to ensure Edict triggers

smoky bluff
#

It kind of makes the spite one hell of a control check on an amber Phantom, as now they can't just take the last turn to activate, else the spite would activate eariler and apply an edict.

indigo oasis
rose hamlet
# brisk flax So to elaborate on the latter part, I get the point (that an Imprisoned/Edict-ed...

So allow me to elaborate on my feelings here:

  • Imprison is a constant, ongoing effect with no fixed end duration (i.e. something tied to start/end of turns). No matter what happens, until the target meets the end conditions, they're Imprisoned.
  • Edict is a bit of a rider effect on Imprison, directly affecting the Imprison target. However, its effect has a fixed end duration of End of Imprisoned Target's next turn.
  • The combination of these feels slightly discordant to me. When I ran the Spite, I expected Edict to just be a passive append to Imprison, but in actuality it was another condition with a separate duration to track.
  • On top of this, this meant there were times when the Imprisoned target was affected by Imprison but not Edict, which personally felt fiddly to me.

I think I was expecting a more seamless effect, along the lines of the following:

  • Edict is assigned upon Imprison, but could be changed as a protocol. Otherwise it's just a "rider" on Imprison that ends when Imprison ends.
  • Edict is assigned upon imprison, but lasts until the start of the Spite's next turn, at which point it can issue another Edict as a Protocol. Still seamless in most cases, but could be disrupted if something prevents the Spite from taking the Edict action (Stunned, currently, though I could envision Jammed blocking it explicitly if that feels interesting?).

But yeah I understand the desire to not let Edict linger? I'll just admit that I'm heavily biased against "solving turn order" in Lancer, so maybe this is just that bias talking.

This is all just my personal feelings on playfeel from a single playtest. Take it with as much salt as you like.

brisk flax
#

SOME things in lancer do get tied to the inflictor for various reasons so it isn't entirely without precedent to have it work that way

brisk flax
#

Thinking about the Elite template in light of the Conscript rebake and how in some respects Elite is weirdly more of a sidegrade or potentially even (you could debate club it) a bit of a drawback at times compared to two normal NPCs.

If we take 1 Elite to equal 2 Normal NPCs (as the widely-held budget guidelines do, in terms of structure and activations) then:

-2 Normal NPCs have the same number of activations and structure as 1 Elite for the same cost, so you lose nothing by going with normal NPCs in that regard, including anything to do with turn order
-Normal NPCs are more resistant to "spillover" damage, that is to say if I deal 100 damage to an Elite Sniper, that guy is straight up dead as all that damage rolls over into the second health bar and kills them. If I deal 100 damage to 1 out of 2 normal Snipers, one Sniper is extra dead but the other remains alive
-Normal NPCs can't be destroyed via reactor stress, while Elites can. I will say in fairness it's debatable whether "permanently Exposed" really buys you MUCH extra longevity, but certain NPCs don't handle the transition to multi-stress as well and can fare much worse for it
-Normal NPCs have a much more flexible map footprint, being able to cover more ground, multiple objective points, having more robust targeting and positioning options, etc
-If you're using the CRB structure damage rules, Elites can run afoul of System Trauma and Stunned upon getting structured

The upsides to Elite, as I can see it, are:

-In terms of maintaining position upon a single area or point, consolidating multiple NPCs' worth of NPC into one can be more useful (though again, you could always put two normal Demolishers onto a single point, but that might actually get TOO crowded)
-Elites can self-synergize with things like Sniper's Mark, Focus Down, etc. An Elite Sniper can Mark, then shoot on its followup turn, but Sniper A can't Mark to let Sniper B shoot with it
-Elite does synergize well with other Templates like Veteran

#

And then there's the bit of Elite that's maybe most overlooked which is Specialist Kit that simply gives you an additional optional from the NPC class, but I find those sorts of traits to be a bit weird because baseline you're choosing anywhere between 0-2 optionals for any given NPC

#

So if I make an Elite NPC and go "I will give them 0+1 optional" I haven't really GAINED anything, it really only applies if I've already decided to give an NPC 2 optionals already

indigo oasis
#

One more benefit of elite is “action stickiness” I would say.

Yes there is damage spillover, but if you structure an elite then you still have 2 enemy activations on the field, whereas with 2 enemies if you structure one you get rid of that activation immediately

brisk flax
#

If optionals were more strictly regulated in some fashion, Specialist Kit and the Ultra equivalent in Advanced Kit might be more interesting

#

and yes, that's also a good point as well

#

The Elite being a consolidation package can be more robust in that regard, though it's a tricky balancing act with CRB structure rules at times

#

I think, weirdly, the rebake structure table is a form of "Elite template buff" in that regard

#

you're more guaranteed to be able to take advantage of that condensed action economy without it going to waste

indigo oasis
#

Elite does feel to me like more of a “fine” balancing tool compared to other templates- it’s a situational upgrade or downgrade, and isn’t necessarily the full step up or down other templates like Veteran and Grunt are

#

Which can be useful but also cause problems if used wrong

brisk flax
#

Which is a little interesting because normally you would think "get 2x health and 2x turns" would be one of the really big super important/impactful templates

#

but the way it works out, I do actually think it's much more nuanced and of a "system mastery" bent

indigo oasis
#

It only really is a big upgrade when you start stacking other templates on top of it, which increases the aforementioned “action stickiness” and thereby makes it sorta… exponentially stronger in a way

brisk flax
#

meanwhile, Elite + Veteran is genuinely just quite good, which is another checkmark in the "system mastery" category

#

yeah

indigo oasis
#

Now I’m thinking about how I could concisely convey Elite’s utility to a newbie encounter designer

brisk flax
#

It's hard because a lot of its upsides are things you basically want to have like a page of "here's how this actually works out" explainer

indigo oasis
#

I think another point on Elite is “control vulnerability”

brisk flax
#

Mmhm

#

same with the Conscript breakdown yeah

indigo oasis
#

It’s kinda hard to gauge how it’s more or less resistant to “end of turn” effects and forced movement compared to 2 untemplated NPCs

brisk flax
#

if I force move one Elite 5 spaces, that displaces all of that NPC's worth of budget 5 spaces. If I displace 1 of 2 NPCs 5 spaces, the other guy stays put

indigo oasis
#

But the elite has more turns to offset that movement, and depending on positioning that “other guy” can potentially not be able to cover for the weakness opened up displacing their Buddy

brisk flax
#

Force movement is, imo, particularly a relevant issue in sitreps where multiple body stickiness can be a big deciding factor

indigo oasis
#

There’s also the resistance to anything “multi target” but that’s probably getting too much into the minutiae

brisk flax
#

if I only have the ability to Ferrous Lash one person off the point, I'm potentially swinging things more in my favor by chucking an elite out of there than having two guys standing around, unless I can move one and then turn around and kill the other

#

as you say, the elite can theoretically move back ONTO the point, but it depends on a lot of factors like their speed, timing, etc

indigo oasis
#

That is true

brisk flax
#

I will say, I have often wondered if it would be better (from an intuitive standpoint as well as more of a specific Elite factor) if they got something like the Ultra's "regain reactions each turn" thing

#

I've found that that's a difference that often catches a lot of people unawares

indigo oasis
#

Personally, the Ultra’s “regain reactions each turn” is a big part of their budget- I’ve run a few elites + Ultras where that distinction has been impactful

brisk flax
#

Oh it's undeniably impactful

#

but it does sort of stand as another sort of "an elite is perhaps not as robust as two normal guys" factor

indigo oasis
#

Yeah I do realize that it’s also making an Elite weaker than 2 NPCs in the reaction category now that I’m thinking about it

brisk flax
#

the other element is simply "this way all multi-action NPC templates work the same in terms of mental overhead"

vale crescent
#

Elites are weird

#

I like them

flint hollow
#

I do have to say that mental overhead is a reason I'm not super fond of ultras myself <.<;;

I'll admit of the tweaked stuff, the one I find most interesting is the veteran specifically not just for the new veterans traits, but specifically the decision to make limitless the default for them.

If anything the thing I do find interesting of rebake Ultras are their new optionals weapons/tech actions/etc, but almost to a point I'd sometimes be tempted to slap them on veterans or elites more than the Ultra template.

I've been pondering why since a while but ultimately i think it come down to the mental overhead of recalling that Juggernaut/etc exists

brisk flax
#

Ultras are definitely the "high mental overhead" template, which has its upsides and its downsides

#

I think that, weirdly, "regain your reactions each activation" is maybe the more intuitive element of them because it "makes sense" from a "1 turn = one use of reactions" standpoint

#

also yeah the big draw for ultras is always gonna be the cool toys which is why the rebake version adds a bunch of them

vale crescent
#

Elites are weaker in terms of reactions and limited systems. They're sometimes not as good as two regular guys but two regular guys are kinda unremarkable

#

But what is good about them is they feel like they can recover better from control effects, they're also SO MUCH faster

#

two ronins can rush a point and both get half way in a turn then fuck shit up two turns later, whereas an elite ronin can gget there in one turn

brisk flax
#

Speed consolidation is a valid aspect, albeit it's focused more on a singular location, so you have some plusses and minuses

vale crescent
#

Yeah ofc

indigo oasis
#

2 Ronins will be better for a standard control than an elite since they can each go to a different control zone and have that be the end of their turns, while an Elite either needs to keep going or pace a bit.

But an Elite Ronin will have a better time in a Gauntlet Holdout since it can get to the control zone and then immediately start attacking, whereas 2 ronins may be outside the control zone or get in and not get to do anything (though they will have a bigger overwatch area and 2 overwatches)

#

Mistyped the second Sitrep oops

#

Idk why I keep doing that

vale crescent
#

Also, elites are very ALL or nothing. Like, you shoot them a lot and they still live, sure they structure... But they can still shoot you twice in a round. Then you kill them and that's 2 activations gone in a round. Killing two guys however, if you kill one that's half of them gone

#

Like, killing an elite before it activates in around means it CANNOT go twice that round, whereas if you kill a singular ronin... THat's 1 of 2 ronin's gone

#

I love elites NGL

#

I think they're more interesting than two regular guys

indigo oasis
#

Good point on target prioritization- while an Elite is more dangerous than an untemplated enemy, having 2 structure may make it either earn more or less focus fire depending on how the players want to remove actions from the field (either removing the most dangerous NPC or removing the weakest ones to remove activations faster)

#

With 2 normal enemies it becomes a decision based purely on enemy class instead

rose hamlet
#

Elites definitely have some nuance to them in their “encounter-level sidegrade” nature, agreed with all the notes above

#

And yeah I personally support any revamps to the structure tables that will let the 2-structure templated NPCs survive a bit longer

errant needle
#

So ran a map with two Veteran Lurkers and had some testing: https://pastebin.com/CKrTjM41

For amusement, the base map the players were on, and the map after the Lancaster decided the only solution to Lurkers was to ignite a fuel pipeline to cause a spreading tide of liquid fire.

Sewers.png firemap.png
Pastebin
LurkerFeedback - Pastebin.com

Pastebin.com is the number one paste tool since 2002. Pastebin is a website where you can store text online for a set period of time.

brisk flax
# errant needle So ran a map with two Veteran Lurkers and had some testing: https://pastebin.com...

Thanks for the feedback.

Re: shrouds and popping them, I do think Seeded Shadows is definitely a factor that applies a bit here by pre-loading the map with multiple shrouds, but I do think that with each player having the capacity to toss out at least one fragment signal per turn if they're of a mind to, that it isn't necessarily too hard to "corner" a Lurker if you really feel like it, but it does remain a major case of target prioritization

#

in the general sense, I do see deleting shrouds as less a thing like "we have to completely eliminate these" and more "this is how you crack open the lurker's shell to get to the juicy center" sort of beat

#

That dynamic is something that's also going to exist even outside of Seeded Shadows, or with the CRB lurker for that matter, and I'm not sure there's a way to rework it that doesn't put the lurker on the back foot, because without shrouds they kind of suck ass

errant needle
#

Yeah, that's my general thought as well. It's less about clearing the Lurker's hideyholes entirely and more about "this disables their primary damage mitigation"

brisk flax
#

yeah

errant needle
#

Kinda like shredding an armored NPC before your buddy follows up

brisk flax
#

And it's especially moreso with shroud deployment range increased to 10, back when it's range 5 it's much easier to stymie a lurker by cutting off shrouds that have been more painstakingly deployed across the map

#

but that runs into the wallflower issue of "these things are deceptively slow and unmaneuverable"

errant needle
#

But even with two of them and a map built for their stuff to exploit, my players weren't thinking "this is bullshit" (compared to our hacker being annoyed Mirages have multiple techs that don't require LOS like PC tech attacks), so I think they're in a good place, actually

#

Theoretically Umbral Clone spam could get out of hand, but that requires particularly spicy recharge dice and people not using, like, reliable to pop the clones.

brisk flax
#

Imagining light nexus auxslinging as anti Lurker tech

errant needle
#

so, funny story about that. Our Black Witch had a Predator Nexus and a Light Nexus in their Main/Aux mount and kept salvoing it to fish for Centimanes. The Predator Nexus which had in-built Invis ignore kept missing. The Aux Light Nexus got criticals three times on the Lurkers. lol

brisk flax
#

lmao

errant needle
#

Did like, 2 damage, because max they can hit is 3

#

and the Lurker armor

#

but still, was funny as hell

tranquil flower
#

Question!
How does this work with foundry? Like, will it give me another version of the NPC, will it replace it? Etc

pseudo merlin
#

My approach was to install the rebake .lcp and not the corebook one

#

and it worked great

rose hamlet
#

I still install the CRB LCP in order to get Monstrosity and the CRB templates

tranquil flower
#

Ooh nice, was worried that I would have to choose one over the other

indigo oasis
rose hamlet
opal folio
#

the rebake versions of the NPCs have [k] in the class names

#

ditto veteran and ultra, so you can mix and match as you please

brittle cipher
echo wolf
#

Make it a Sergeant for good measure, get all the Kai stuff in

#

Named Major Lieutenant

nimble onyx
#

Just picked up the Rebake a couple days ago. I really appreciate the notes included for each entry. Also very pleased to see my favorites, Berserker and Mirage, were largely the same

dapper sierra
#

the notes are pretty huge yeah haha

#

they've made us consider a lot of our own NPC design in a new light

random urchin
#

The notes really do take it from "useful for Lancer" to "useful for TTRPGs in general". It's really neat to see explanations of why certain things don't work as intended and proposed solutions that really are trying to maintain the idea of the original.

eternal flare
indigo oasis
eternal flare
#

I mean it’s fine there’s a bunch of NPCs which make boring or poor centerpieces

indigo oasis
#

Fair enough, but no NPC is really forbidden from it

eternal flare
#

The Spite’s basically the tech version of a Bombard and elite or ultra Bombards are really boring too (but also just a huge DPS check)

#

Now that said, “give the spite a fucked up drone optional” like the Bombard might be a good thing

indigo oasis
#

Yeah only 2 of the Spite optionals give it an active action, which is. A thing

opal folio
#

A spite would actually make a good rebake ultra cause that has some more controller / support optionals tbh

#

Giving it ontolotactical and puppet crasher would be solid

eternal flare
#

That’s true yeah

#

I ran an Elite and kinda ran outta things to do but that wouldn’t be a problem

rose hamlet
brisk flax
rose hamlet
#

Yeah it’s good for flexibility! But it’s not a powerhouse because of it

brisk flax
#

like I know you've mentioned before you aren't really a fan of, like, turn order influenced/influencing stuff, but I think that "Elite Spite doesn't want to slam its two activations back to back so it can see what's going on" isn't exactly something that cuts against the grain

rose hamlet
#

Yeah no that’s fine by me, I’m not complaining here, I’m just saying that of all the things I would fear as an Elite or Ultra, Rebake* Spite isn’t one of them (which is good imo)

brisk flax
#

I agree with the breakdown of the Ultra template though re: anyone can be a meaningful Ultra, it's that you take the stuff for it

#

like I do not actually care about a lot of Ultra [whatevers] either outside of "what Ultra gear did they bring"

#

I think that's just sort of the nature of that beast

rose hamlet
#

that's frankly what I'd like to see for most Elites/Ultras yeah. There's some outliers like Witch (due to how Tear Down works) but in general I'd want an Elite to be roughly comparable to two dudes

#

I think Rebake Spite is in that safe range

indigo oasis
rose hamlet
indigo oasis
#

I think there was a discussion earlier about how 2 untemplated NPCs vs 1 Elite aren’t too different and Elite is kinda weaker than the former generally speaking

#

So it’s weaker I guess is the answer

brisk flax
rose hamlet
brisk flax
#

like, there's weirdly a lot more difference to the extent that I think the Elite template is counterintuitive and bound up in a lot of unspoken system mastery

#

you would expect "Elite makes one guy worth two guys" to be a straight upgrade, but arguably I do not think that is actually true in a lot of cases

indigo oasis
brisk flax
wise creek
#

ooooh i just ran a gladiator last combat, so i'm interested to see what's different

#

i like the revised emphasis on grapples, i think it makes the gameplan a lot clearer than the current version

#

i can see it playing out similar to how i ran the gladiator last time (running in and locking down an opponent), but the grappling adds some extra uniqueness (?) on how exactly it's locking an opponent down

brisk flax
#

Yeah, the original Gladiator is kind of a grab bag of stuff and with Hydraulic Claw already in there, I decided to angle it more towards the trifecta of ram, grapple, and punching

wise creek
#

it seems like a good way to distinguish it from the berserker, which you mentioned already in the design notes

brisk flax
#

Probably the closest analogue in the NPC roster is something like the Goliath now, which is less concerned with grappling and ramming directly and more about fancier spins on those + crush targeting, but the Gladiator is definitely in that same ballpark of what I call "Bruisers," guys who are distinguished by being big close range sluggers who just kinda get up in your face and start trading blows

indigo oasis
#

I do not recall original Gladiator so I don’t know what’s new and old, but Ground and Pound is super flavorful and fun

#

Impair and Prone off of one save is nasty too (granted it’s caused by an attack roll too)

brisk flax
#

Ground and Pound is actually, oldheads will know this, how the Enkidu used to work

#

The original version was actually built around enhanced Improvised Attacks

#

and it had a trait that let it IA someone standing from Prone

indigo oasis
#

Interesting. I think the modern version is better

brisk flax
#

oh yeah it's a lot better

indigo oasis
#

Still a fun idea, especially for an NPC

brisk flax
#

it didn't survive testing for a number of reasons

indigo oasis
#

With a PC the combos would be too much

bold crystal
#

improvised attack...

brisk flax
#

but I think it works better as an NPC who isn't concerned with things like mandatory Brawler talent investment

indigo oasis
#

Gladiator’s A lot more reaction focused than expected when I hear “brawler based defender” too

bold crystal
#

while it's not a gorgon analogue the punishment loop sorta reminds me of the gorgon

brisk flax
#

Originally it was only Shoulder Charge that was baseline and Ground and Pound was an optional, relocating it to a base system is in large part driven by the fact that it's one of the most regularly picked optionals, and it kind of tracks why since it creates a more cohesive "ecosystem" of abilities which hook into each other

indigo oasis
#

Out of curiosity Kai, since I assume you’re just doing these Suldan rebakes for fun cause updating Suldan or publishing these separately would be… difficult, do you think there are any Suldan NPCs that come to mind that seem like a rebake would have minimal impact on them?

wise creek
brisk flax
#

so how it works is someone has to stand from prone, now they're standing, now you punch them and see if you can knock them back down again

wise creek
#

gotcha

indigo oasis
#

If they were prone from the maul fist tho they’re probably still impaired- interesting gameplay loop actually

brisk flax
#

Otherwise it'd have to be written to clarify the timing AND that it prevents them from standing or else risk 10000000 "can you knock someone prone who's already prone" questions

wise creek
#

i suppose if they're already impaired from a previous maul fist hit, also having a higher chance of getting hit on their next turn is kind of feelsbad

brisk flax
#

it's largely the same NPC, most of the changes are things like "this quick action system is now a full action" etc

indigo oasis
#

They don’t seem like they did yeah

brisk flax
#

The Sergeant probably isn't due MASSIVE overhauls at a casual glance, idk

indigo oasis
#

Eyeballing a lack of changes is probably harder than eyeballing changes

bold crystal
#

the valkyrie, though...

indigo oasis
#

That’s an obvious one

brisk flax
#

The Valkyrie's biggest sticking point is going to be multiattacks but largely I'm not sure what else is an immediate change in terms of "this is bad" versus "this could be more cohesive"

indigo oasis
#

Reaver is a weird one tho- pseudo AOE base weapon that doesn’t have tier scaling damage

#

Emphasis on weird like it feels like something’s off but I couldn’t specify what

#

It’s base traits are at least focused but they’re pretty loaded

#

Idk I like Reaver conceptually and I can’t say anything is definitively up with it that would prompt an update but I just can’t help but squint looking at it it’s odd

#

Anyway Lurker + Elite Strider test tmrw wish me luck

brisk flax
#

The Reaver, in the majority of the play its seen, has been reported to do more or less what I envisioned for it which is a very scary and very damage-absorbant guy who sits on a point menacingly

#

very rarely has a Reaver, like, menaced the party through total overkill, but it's more like "we shot this thing and it never died and it chased us away because fuck dealing with that thing"

#

I think there are some plusses and minuses to this, mainly that A). it's doing what I wanted it to do, and B). it might be a bit too uninteractive in that regard

indigo oasis
#

I’m probably just feeling intimidated by the volume of text in Legion Body and Containment Breach

#

Having regen as a base traits with 2 methods of being shut down is, imo, a real fun mechanic, and the phase change is sick too. It looks like it was hitting the notes Rebake Avenger is hitting (before Rebake Avenger Exists), in that it’s a defender where both modes have merit and triggering the second mode makes it scary

opal folio
#

wrt the Reaver, i think relying on burn is a bit of a gear check, but besides that i have had good experiences with the reaver that i ran

indigo oasis
brisk flax
indigo oasis
#

Also the Multiattack doesn’t read as a thing for Valkyrie

#

It doesn’t seem to have any traits that tie into it at least

#

Oh wait Flyby oops

brisk flax
#

Like the Valkyrie's basic in-the-garage conception was "what if I made a Ronin that flies" and so that's basically where multiattacking came from, and it went back and forth over a period of time

#

It's a product of "me designing NPCs 4-5 years ago" versus "me, sick of this shit now"

opal folio
#

i tried a very light-touch attempt at one a while ago:

1/round, after the Valkyrie hits a target with the Nanocarbon Partizan, it may move upto its Speed (ignoring engagement and reactions) and Skirmish as a Free Action. The second attack must have a different target than the first. This attack does half damage, but the target must pass a Hull save or be knocked prone. The Valkyrie must be flying to use this trait.```

which leans more into it being insanely fast than it being a high-damage attacker, it's still probably too much
indigo oasis
opal folio
#

the one time i ran them i was sweating cause they were kind of overperforming for what they were even at t1

indigo oasis
#

It kinda. Only has Flyby Strike as a distinct gimmick but hits super hard.

brisk flax
#

Like I said, there are NPCs who get to do "I get extra attacks!" stuff even outside of multiattacking, but it's generally gated by actions and recharge and doesn't scale outside of that

indigo oasis
#

Me personally, if I wanted to keep the Flyby Strikes gimmick of “spreading attacks across movement”, I’d start by considering making something akin to Lunge or Breach Ram. Course that’s a little overdone so settling on something else would be preferable

indigo oasis
#

Just wrapped up a Playtest Control with Tier 2 Untemplated Plural Kinetic Transference Lurkers (and an Elite Strider but uh, unlucky structure roll), here are the player thoughts:

  • It was very deceptively mobile and disruptive as a Lurker usually is
  • Despite the Shroud Zone benefit changes, they were difficult to kill due to their invisibility despite the player's packing 2 Trump Cards- A Death's Head wielding a Suldan Superheavy Nexus that was range 10 and line 5 allowing it to attack both the Shroud ZOne and the Lurker (often missing the Shroud Zone) and a Lotus Projector. The Lurkers just kept evading both of those with relative ease.
  • The rebake Lurker has even less of a Standard Move, constantly placing Shroud Zones and teleporting, but with extra bulk + Defensive Shroud as a base trait it did have more of a reason to exit the shroud zone
  • Still, Range 10 feels a bit too mobile. One of the player's has played against Base Lurkers a few times and even range 5 felt very mobile.
  • The largest concern was Kinetic Transference however, mainly due to the fact that (unlike comparable abilities like Lunge or Breach Ram), the damage dealt was both Armor Piercing and Automatic with no save. It felt very bad to be hit with the damage over and over again with no real way to mitigate it.

The players did only take one or two stress amongst them and no structure, having spammed Overcharge but not really used their core powers. But it didn't feel great to be hit with Kinetic Transference in the damage department. They felt that if they hadn't brought some stuff to deal with the Lurkers it would've been too much. There were a total of 3 Lurkers- 2 deployed initially, and 1 as a reinforcement. None had templates.

As a GM side note, with Deployment and Ingress Zones that weren't immediately attackable, the deployment and then protocol Shroud Zones did feel awkward, with only one being necessary while the other just saw no use. Probably a map desing thing tho.

brisk flax
#

I'll look at kinetic transference, that's probably an easy adjustment

#

I'm less sure about adjusting shroud deployment range, as that's been received more positively in aggregate

indigo oasis
#

Fair fair, could be a map design thing

brisk flax
#

Also not much I can really say about "players kept missing"

#

Was it near misses?

indigo oasis
#

Lemme check the chat history

brisk flax
#

Or just cold dice?

#

Not at my desk, shrouds default to baseline 10 defense, right?

#

At tier 1

indigo oasis
#

10/12/14 yeah

brisk flax
#

Okay, what I may do is lower that to 8/10/12

#

Given you can't lock on to them or prone them etc

#

Idk if it would have helped here

indigo oasis
#

They didn't seem to be rolling low against the shrouds yeah

#

Lowest roll against a Shroud I saw was a 10

#

So that kind of change would help yeah

indigo oasis
# brisk flax Given you can't lock on to them or prone them etc

Plus going out of your way to destroy a shroud is costly due to how easy it is for a Lurker to make another. It's probably got similar design logic behind the Specter and shutting down it's invisibility- it's impactful sure but very fleeting and action hungry

#

... also I am just now remembering the Strider had Spare Parts and I completely forgot to use it when it would've absolutely been relevant for healing a Lurker or even saving the Strider

#

The most I can say I suppose is even with Lock On it did struggle to hit with the Ranger Long Rifle from all of the two attacks it made, but the 10 damage at tier 2 was scary Disregard that I forgot that while it was alive all targets it could even attempt against had Noah

#

I did find it kinda weird that Flash Grenade, on the Ranger Kit, has range 5. Made it hard to use and also made me wonder "why would I not just swap kits?" Especially since Smoke Grenade, the Grenade Ranger Strider would want to use, was on the Skirmisher Kit. But it was never really within range 5 of any PCs anyway so not like it came up

#

Adaptive Camoflage was also forgotten about when it likely would've been relevant to saving the Strider's life, so that's another thing work pointing out at least.

#

The Strider definitely suffered from GM incompetence is all I can say tbh

brisk flax
#

Wallflower's Strider has an explicit clause that you can't use stuff from multiple kits in one turn, but that isn't a thing anymore outside of kit and swap bonuses being exclusive

brisk flax
#

Now whether the value for doing so is there is an open question I'd like more feedback on. "Would these see more use swapped around in terms of who gets what" is something I've considered, but I'm not yet convinced (by dint of feedback to work off of) that it would have significant impact

#

re: the earlier feedback, something I think is worth noting about the Lurker's "bulk" is that it's really only manifest at Tier 1
The rebake Lurker's HP scales 12/14/16
Wallflower's scales 10/14/18
and both have 1 armor, with identical defenses

#

so at Tier 1 you have an increase of 2 HP but tbh I'm not sure I would really look at that and see it as being a huge incentive to walk outside of a shroud zone

brisk flax
#

Looking over stuff some more, I admit I'm a bit unclear what the dividing line between Kinetic Transferrence and things like Strafe (Ace) and Trample (Cataphract) are, presumably that it's AP (which was mentioned)

#

That is to say, NPCs do have ways of dealing deterministic damage even as quick actions, or sometimes even as part of something else, so I think looking at it from an action cost perspective is incorrect (and plus many of those abilities don't have recharge, which kinetic transference does)

#

I think applying additional saves/attack rolls to the line is more rolling than I really want to do, so presumably the sticking point here is that the damage bypasses armor

indigo oasis
indigo oasis
# brisk flax Looking over stuff some more, I admit I'm a bit unclear what the dividing line b...

Removing the AP was one recommendation from the players. It’s not that it’s just no save, it’s that it’s AP too. It really reduces player options to mitigate Kinetic Transference.

The fact it’s a teleport as well makes it bypass many restrictions other NPC classes would suffer. Sure an Ace can fly over terrain but it can’t bypass Overwatch, and it needs locked on targets to damage more than one character. A Cataphract still needs to draw a straight line uninterrupted. Etc.

#

This was fairly relevant to the combat- there was a lot of size 1 terrain which means the Lurker could see all its spaces in its shroud zone as well as move into more optimal locations to initiate Kinetic Transference with little punishment

#

The Forced Movement part of it felt fine though- it was difficult to pull off sometimes sure but it’s fairly impactful when it works and could always be mitigated with a save

brisk flax
#

Taking everything into consideration, what I'm probably going to do is:
1). Increase the damage of Devouring Shard to 4/5/6 AP from 3/4/5 AP, this is what it is in Wallflower already (the higher version) with a save for half, here it's save for no damage, so I think returning it to its baseline is fine
2). Drop the AP from Kinetic Transference and leave it at 3/4/5 kinetic damage
3). Drop Shroud E-Defense to 8/10/12 to make it somewhat more rewarding/easier to pop shrouds given that there aren't really any ways of gaining extra accuracy to doing so outside of perhaps a couple unusual talent interactions (Leader can do it, most weapon-based talents won't be able to work unless you also have a Smart weapon benefiting from them, etc)

indigo oasis
#

You know, thinking about when it’s good and bad to use the RPV template, I do think Operator’s Self-Erasure makes the flavor of being an RPV fit good, but the rebake makes it pair better than it normally does in the CRB.

Before the old operator would have base 2 accuracy to all attacks so the impair isn’t actually impactful and it’s just tankier. Replacing that with Reliable damage and giving it Strike and Fade + a Crit bonus however makes it more interesting as an RPV imo, letting it become a more durable harrier at the cost of being even more exposed when it chooses to take risks for higher damage/crits. It’s neat.

brisk flax
#

holy fuckin moly why did I just sell 32 copies all at once

#

oh dragonkid video

#

that'll do it

dapper sierra
#

that'd do it

neon blaze
#

LOL

#

expect nothing less

brisk flax
#

Anyway I was gonna try to screencap when I hit 500 copies sold but thanks to my amazing marketing efforts of "someone else making a video about my thing," I've shot pretty well past that

young laurel
#

That would indeed do it, also congrats on having 11dragonkid making a video on your stuff. :]

#

Well deserved imho, since you've put a lot of work into the Rebaked NPCs.

stone ore
#

I just got this and really like the rebakes! I was wondering if you'd considered rebakes for the other '1st party' NPCs, or if you consider them balanced by the standards of your rebake? Not in like a - a bad way, just in a judging the balance of things like the Leech or Avenger or your own MBT vs the rebaked content.

rose hamlet
#

Only other rebakes mentioned were for Kai’s Suldan, actually

stone ore
#

Ah ok!

indigo oasis
#

As a guess

brisk flax
#

yeah broadly I kind of feel like the MBT does what I would want it to do in an NPC of its particular type

#

you can observe the general factors like to-hit values etc

#

the MBT is less "focused" than other standard NPCs being more of a setpiece unit with variable armaments, but the core element of it centered around the armored facing in conjunction with things like tank shock present an NPC that (at least in part) encourages physical maneuvering, flanking, etc as a means of addressing it

orchid ledge
brisk flax
#

came back from work to like 40 itch notifications

cunning marlin
opal folio
#

hey i haven't taken a close look at the strider rebake so i just want to make sure here -- are adaptive camouflage and flash/smoke grenade supposed to be kit-agnostic now?

brisk flax
#

they are very much the opposite

#

adaptive camouflage and flash grenade are marksman kit gear, smoke grenade is skirmisher kit

#

if it looks weird in the lcp, that may be a byproduct of the strider being extremely fucking hard to code an lcp for

opal folio
#

yeah it's a weird guy

brisk flax
#

but I would consult the document because that should have it all laid out

opal folio
#

i'll have to label them in foundry for ease of use

brisk flax
#

there is one piece of kit-agnostic gear which is the survival knife, plus traits like Spare Parts and Weathering

carmine idol
opal folio
subtle nacelle
#

the latest lcp specifically has a list of equipment under each kit

opal folio
#

sweet, just an outdated version on my end then

ashen patio
#

Hello! I finally feel like I have the confidence to look at the units within the rebake with an eye that can comprehend the numbers as well as the changes.

A quick question about the Assassin's Shroud Projector.

Is it intending to say that, within this blast 3 radius: If you're in the shroud, you can't see out, if youre outside the shroud, you can't see in, and if you're partially inside of it, you're fine for both ways

OR

Is it saying that if you're completely within the shroud, you can't draw line of sight anywhere and if you're outside, you can't draw line of sight inside, and people who are only partially inside an draw line of sight to both?

(i'm inclined to believe the former, but the wording feels just off enough that I want to clarify)

bold crystal
#

the wording isn't changed from core; the intent is basically that it's like Hardlight Defense System but not as hard of an effect(only blocking LoS and not everything); so the former

ashen patio
#

Ah, fantastic. Thank you ❤️

bold crystal
#

it could be more clear but there's basically only one interpretation that makes 'Characters partially within the area are not affected' actually mean anything

indigo oasis
#

You know I just realized. In the rebake, because Barricades had their kinetic resistance removed, Scourers are the only NPC that resists a single damage type outright

#

I guess Energy is, by virtue of Tokugawa and NucCav, one of the strongest damage types

ashen patio
#

squints at Huntsman trait for the Rainmaker

So, if I target a character with Lock on, it's smart and seeking

But I still get that benefit if I do not consume lockon?

indigo oasis
#

Yes- but you have to consume Lock On to gain AP

ashen patio
#

Excellent, just wanted to make sure. I don't think that there are many effects that gain a benefit for targeting someone with lock on, but not consuming it.

Scouts marker rifle comes to mind, but that's more taking advantage of a secondary condition, rather than deliberately gaining an effect for targeting someone with lock-on, but not consuming it

indigo oasis
ashen patio
#

Huh! So itdoes.

ashen patio
#

Eye of midnight: What is the distinction between "Leaving" a space, and "Exiting" a space? Does this trigger on teleports and involuntary actions?

restive fable
#

it doesn't

#

I don't really think there's a difference

indigo oasis
#

The distinction is “exiting a space within threat” and “leaving threat entirely”. So… yeah basically no difference

brisk flax
#

the occasional tokugawa is a menace to be sure, but kinetic resistance will block a lot of damage on average

#

I sort of view Ablative Shielding as a very niche trait overall, the Scourer is imo kind of unique in that its a striker that doesn't really possess a robust defensive mitigation tool the way most others do

#

I actually do think, and maybe @rose hamlet would like to add his thoughts as someone who has also spent a lot of time thinking about NPC roles and has had some very insightful thoughts on strikers in particular, that a strong argument could be made that a core element of Striker design is some form of selfish survival tool

#

that is, Strikers as a role are not beholden to defenders or supports for protection, and that they have a strong element of "independence" to them

rose hamlet
#

oh hey that's me

brisk flax
#

Hunker Down, Stampede Defense, Tactical Cloak, Barrel Roll, etc

ashen patio
#

that's kinda the difference between Striker and Artillary to me.

Artillary is Maximizing damage, while Striker is "Sacrificing a little damage for survivability"

brisk flax
#

Just about every Striker has some form of thing that makes them harder to kill

rose hamlet
#

Yeah I think that Strikers (i.e. close-range attackers) desire some sort of defense to compensate for the riskier range/poorer target opportunities

#

And Vanguards (as in, Objective Strikers) want to take an objective and tend to want to live long enough to interact with the objective, which requires some defensive traits

indigo oasis
rose hamlet
#

that said, I don't think they're supremely independent from the rest of their team, and should get dunked on if they don't have a Tank to back them up

brisk flax
#

yeah it does intersect with your idea of Strikers as being mobile, which is why I thought to tag you in, I don't know if anyone has ever formally categorized striker NPC design as "wants a defensive ability"

#

oh well sure, but I think that's just a matter of lancer being what it is in terms of, like, "how much focus fire can a PC party deliver on"

indigo oasis
#

But yeah I will concede Kinetic probably supersedes energy

rose hamlet
#

pardon if my ideas are incoherent, I'm in the middle of a PF2e game lol

brisk flax
#

hunker down is NICE, but hunker down isn't going to stop the PCs from just fucking mulching you if they're determined

#

oh shit sorry

#

lmao

rose hamlet
#

lol no worries, it's not like broadcast that lol

#

but IMO if you wanna take an objective you gotta be able to take at least 1 hit on the chin

brisk flax
#

I'd actually been thinking about this exact thing as I looked back over the Suldan NPCs because notably several of the strikers in there do NOT have explicit defensive traits and instead get by on numbers moreso

rose hamlet
#

But if you're like, a Specter or Operator, you don't give a fuck about holding stuff

brisk flax
#

the Ogre is a melee striker that exists with like 18 HP and 2 base armor and no sort of defensive move, it's simply "this guy has a lot of bulk"

rose hamlet
#

I think that's generally fine yeah

brisk flax
#

(notably 18 HP is Ronin level, it's the armor that pushes it)

ashen patio
#

When I look at striker defensive tools, it's usualy someting that lets them 'get way' with being out of position, not "Be a tank". It also threatens action economy. "I COULD shoot the assault, but then he will hunker down."

One guy taking a pot shot at the Assault is something they can shrug off with resistance. But if he isn't punished for being out of position, then he just simply 'gets away with it'

brisk flax
#

The Valkyrie also lacks a strong defensive component

#

and I think if/when I revisit those classes, I'm going to keep the defensive tool angle in mind

rose hamlet
#

I think it's a better question of what they wanna do

#

do they want to deal damage, or do they want to take the objective

#

those can coexist tbf but it's helpful to know what their main goal is

#

Cataphract is a "striker" but it's an objective-taker since it yanks fools off the objective (and quickly get to the objective) moreso than going pew pew I kill you

#

Meanwhile, ~~Ronin ~~ EDIT: Specter is a clearer example here* is a "striker" but is more about killing your face

ashen patio
#

Hey, so, real quick: I downloaded the module that's supposed to allow the NPC's in the rebake LCP to utilize the custom structure table, but

how do I put it on foundry?

rose hamlet
#

You'd need a mod

ashen patio
#

I need a mod to apply a mod?

rose hamlet
ashen patio
#

Yes, I have the mod, but I don't know how to put that mod on foundry

rose hamlet
#

there's an existing mod called Lancer Alternative Structure that uses a different homebrew structure table, for example

#

this is #lancer-vtt talk, it sounds like

rose hamlet
#

keeping distant is its own sort of defense, after all

#

in any case, I think that if you get up in Range 5 or lower and stay there, you need some form of resilience to not get instagibbed

brisk flax
#

it's not a particularly razor-focused design and I would probably need to strongly stick it back into the oven for a while to get something I'd be fully satisfied with these days

ashen patio
#

BTW, kai, thank you so much for typing out your features with lower-case letters, making them easy to recognize from their idenically-named core counterpart

brisk flax
#

That was first (to me) introduced in Winter Scar, and NPCs Rebaked uses the same formatting

rose hamlet
#

I do believe lowercases will be coming in Compcon V3's NPC data, as a note

ashen patio
#

This is what I mean

image.png
brisk flax
#

yeah what I mean is in the CRB, Traits specifically were done in all-caps (like PUNISHER AMMUNITION etc) but the new style guidelines Mina uses for lancer layout do not do that

#

I basically asked Mina to do this project using Lancer's updated layout formatting

ashen patio
#

ahhh

brisk flax
#

observe the MBT

#

This is also when the change happened from "Traits are always in red, Systems are always in green" to "Purely passive abilities are red, anything that uses a quick or full action is green, regardless of whether it's a Trait or System"

rose hamlet
# brisk flax

Legit I appreciate that for LCP data-naming reasons yeah

brisk flax
#

To be clear this might have changed earlier, I can't remember offhand if Dustgrave or SSMR use this formatting as well

#

Winter Scar is the first time I was made really familiar with it

rose hamlet
#

SSMR yes, dustgrave no

brisk flax
#

Solstice Rain didn't have any NPC-side stuff

rose hamlet
#

Dustgrave was the last publication to use the "OG Lancer House Style"

brisk flax
#

Gotcha

rose hamlet
#

I think the only exception to the ALL CAPS in the new house style is in Player Mech Frame Traits at this point

#

otherwise yeah it's as you say

trail pivot
#

yeah strikers generally, are about self-sufficiency in terms of their own defensive presence

#

oh wait late haha

rose hamlet
#

all good yeah. IMO if they wanna get in close, they gotta have enough survivability to take a hit while they walk up and/or stand on the objective. But they shouldn't necessarily have the same durability as a Tank/Rearguard (aka the "Defenders")

ashen patio
#

Striker defense option: You're here for a good time, not a long time

trail pivot
#

imo striker durability kind of varies with the job and their tools, ie a berserker or grappler needs to be much bulkier than, say, the ace might

ashen patio
#

Alternate NPC structure question.

If they choose to be slowed and impared for he rest of the scene, can this be cleared? Like, not on its own, but I'm not 100% on how Lancer handles effects like that. Could they stabilize and clear one of the conditions?

rose hamlet
brisk flax
#

so it's a twofold approach between that and barrel roll for the ones that manage to connect

restive fable
#

So our options for killing one without having to get past the armor actually became kinda limited

ashen patio
#

The Scourer is just like.

An absolute unit

restive fable
#

It'll definitely fall off at LL2 or so

brisk flax
#

some ongoing conditions have specific clause requirements to clear, like Lock/Hold Javelins, which can only be cleared thusly

#

Players can Stabilize clear Break Armor, NPCs can clear the ongoing Impaired/Slowed from the damage table, but they'll need some way of doing so as NPCs don't have the same Stabilize options as PCs do

#

You need a thing that specifically clears conditions on the NPC end, Support systems, an Aegis' Defense Net, Support-type Grunts, etc

ashen patio
#

Oh shite!

I have been doing enemy stabilize actions wrong

brisk flax
#

NPCs have their own specific set of actions and how they work

ashen patio
#

Aye, I knew that, I just was wrong about their version of stablize!

brisk flax
#

the NPC stabilize action ONLY reloads weapons and clears exposed, it doesn't do anything else

ashen patio
#

(And clears heat)

brisk flax
#

yeah

#

so conditions do tend to be stickier on NPCs, as is burn

ashen patio
#

Also, enemies can not preform the same quicktech action, even with a fulltech action

brisk flax
#

but if you DO have ways of clearing Impaired/Slowed, then yes, you can clear those conditions off of the damage table

ashen patio
#

(This is not specific to the rebake project, I should move my incredulity someplace else)

brisk flax
#

It's been noted that Support-type grunts are good for this because they each have the Stabilizer Drones system which clears those conditions and adds some overshield

indigo oasis
brisk flax
#

strictly speaking, I think that "damage type resistances" often end up in weird places regardless of game unless those damage types are VERY specifically designed with resistance interactions in mind on a broad level, like that dynamic forms an integral part of the combat framework

#

like D&D has lots of elemental resistances et al and generally what it turns into is "pick the damage types that the least enemies resist, i.e. probably not Fire"

#

I tend to view type-resistances in lancer along similar lines, kinetic is the clear winner, explosive and burn are pretty niche, etc

#

There's PROBABLY a world where you could give the scourer a more interesting form of resistance but I didn't really feel like it

#

also notable is that the more interesting defensive stuff does often (not always) tend to reflect upon the unit's playstyle in some capacity and the scourer already has a very clear gameplay loop going

#

i.e. Point-Defense Shield says a lot about the Cataphract and its tactics and goals, Stampede Defense informs part of the Berserker's identity in a core way which is that just trading attacks with it is bad, etc

restive fable
#

The Scourer's ablative shielding exists to annoy NucCav players pain

brisk flax
#

yeah I mean largely energy damage resistance does do that and it's funny, I won't deny that, but I do think it's a case of being somewhat arbitrarily applied for thematic reasons here (it's the energy guy) rather than, like, a real deliberate gameplay purpose

indigo oasis
#

I do think having singular enemies have a static Damage Resistance is kind of interesting for the NPC ecosystem- eg. This is the energy damage enemy, this is the explosive damage enemy, etc.

It’s a bad idea as a primary niche but can give a minor secondary or tertiary niche that can add a little extra depth to an NPC- like a bit of herb rather than a full on spice

#

On like. A very broad and vague scale

#

Alternatively it can be set aside as like. Template optionals. Idk, I think an NPC occasionally asking the players to use a different damage type isn’t a huge build check and is interesting- yes I know Ultra’s Superior Shielding exists stuff like this is easier to field

rose hamlet
#

Scourer gets flavorful resistance, as a treat

#

it's earned it

brisk flax
#

yeah I don't mind it, so I kept it, but I also didn't feel bad about cutting the barricade's kinetic resistance

#

it does make the scourer one of the striker NPCs that's really just all about the damage moreso than anything else

indigo oasis
#

But for an otherwise mid bulk NPC that also operates more mid range (and probably requires setup to deal impact)- I mean it doesn’t sound like a bad idea

#

Aka an NPC that can afford the flavor resistance

restive fable
#

That just reminded me that the Barricade in the game I'm currently halfway through is a Rebaked one and I should fire my Cyclone Pulse Rifle at it before it drags someone down again

brisk flax
#

The humble Size 2 cube of hard cover:

toxic stream
#

Those size 2 spiky bois have been the bane of my hyper mobile JK1 build

random urchin
#

After having previously given my players a Barricade ally for a Combat it's wild to almost immediately see someone fix our biggest complaint and let them place cubes at range

restive fable
#

He's already used the cube in a position that doesn't provide him cover, I'm gonna rattle him

smoky bluff
#

At the very least, energy resistance is useful enough for low level lancers that it could be a challenge considering the scourer's bulky nature, but i do feel like the effect wears off at higher ll with all the damage stacking energy damage profile weapons can deal

#

I can see how Kinetic resistance, one of the most common damage type would be useful for a NPC but for a NPC to be resistant to explosive, I only seen it be used to protect the npc from its own area of effect attacks. Which isn't bad but its obviously not going to be the best damage profile out of the 3 damage profile

#

I do wonder if something similar to Napoleon's heavy Shielding but only for explosives would change things up, not only would that suggest that catching the npc within its own blast radius almost risk-free but other attacks that rely on explosives would deal almost no damage.

restive fable
#

So, an NPC that takes only 1 damage from all Explosive damage?

smoky bluff
#

Yeah

tame obsidian
#

👍

#

The four NPCs my players have come to utterly despise are Barricades and Hornets, because they are the 'you don't get to play the game' units.
Priests, because they are the ultimate glazers.
And Rainmakers because obscene damage potential.

restive fable
#

I am not fond of non-Rebake Specters

tame obsidian
#

any nonrebake striker with the multiattack at higher tiers did seem absurd

#

If I want to make a dangerous melee NPC, I'll just give them a second melee weapon for that sweet barrage

#

and ya know, physically tell my players like: 'hey, this particular ronin/assassin/spectre clearly has two swords'.

#

also, something I haven't seen pinned is the latest NPC rebake lcp link

#

I'm still using the 1.14.0 version pain

restive fable
tame obsidian
#

o

neon blaze
#

it means said players have to reckon and interact with the board and its states rather than steamroll whatever happens to be closests, essentially

#

(not that it stops those with the tools to steamroll anyway, but thats typically an investment in itself)

#

I actually highlighted the opposite case with one of my one Strikers where it instead has a Glowing Weakspot but is otherwise just kind of extremely bulked out the gate. In retrospect, I might still tweak that (mainly because it might end up swingier than I would enjoy) but its definitely a consideration to how NPCs are expected to act in the end

#

you either have to burn the target's resources or put them in a disadvantageous state

twin reef
#

Yeah, you've got Stampede Defense, Barrel Roll, Point-Defense Shield, Deflect, Assassin's Mark, Hunker Down, I guess Ablative Shielding counts as well. The only striker without direct defensive tools is the Breacher.

#

I forgot about the Specter, which is fitting, because its defensive tool is that it's invisible.

indigo oasis
#

Technically the Auto Cooler whatever is also a defensive tool

#

Against heat Gen specifically. But that’s really stretching the definition

#

The Scourer also has range on its side and inherent accuracy on its attacks so I guess it has that too

#

Wait Assaults + Aces outrange jt nevermind

#

Wait hang on, in the rebake ecosystem where the Assaults no longer have reliable (good change), what purpose do scourers serve now anyway? Just being Burn strikers?

#

You know what after checking the design notes again. Yeah. Yeah it is. And that’s good enough

brisk flax
#

Scourers are focus-fire strikers, essentially

#

They're explicitly and overtly encouraged to single out targets and attack them repeatedly, as opposed to something like the assault which loses nothing for simply attacking whoever it can do so most effectively at any given moment

indigo oasis
#

They feel kinda like Snipers in that respect

#

In a very loose way

vale crescent
#

Scourers are decent with their first attack then fuck shit up with their second on the same target

#

If you aren't a massive dodge tank, and a scourer hit you last round you DON'T want to be in their threat next round

#

Threat here being... effective range with movement n such

prime urchin
#

Turns out, the striker value/"thing" of scourers is fear

#

Pushes you out if you don't think you can take it out fast enough

indigo oasis
#

I think they do the same damage as Assaults while having Baseline accuracy too

#

So they’re kinda like glass cannons

#

I say, repeating the mantra of “x is kinda like y if z” for the fourth time

vale crescent
#

They're kinda like operators but they don't teleport and do a little less damage and do more damage if they hit twice and also have a bit of armour but less health and are a bit slower and have less range

errant needle
#

In my experience, the Rebake Scourers have proven to be a definitive step up in a squad that packs a Black Witch that's been very potent against all the kinetic damage previously.

#

Being energy damage primary drastically increased their threat level, and being Energy resistant meant the NucCav Sherman wasn't nearly as one shot capable.

errant needle
#

It's not a "hard counter", in that there's ways around it, but it definitely makes them deceptively bulky.

rose hamlet
brisk flax
#

I think that more than just raw numerical range I think that a big element of artillery is "difficulty to hit me," which means I agree with your prior breakdown that the Ace qualifies by virtue of high ceiling flight, but the scourer is almost always going to be in a hittable range

rose hamlet
#

like I'm viewing Scourer through the lens of Vanguard (Objective Striker) vs. Assailant (Damage Striker/Artillery), and in my eyes Scourer has very little that encourages it to be a Vanguard outside of token durability for shorter range

#

It even has a way to partially negate cover difficulty with innate accuracy on its gun!

#

but yeah I'm viewing it through the lens of "what is this thing's gameplan" and not "how does this NPC express itself in its execution of that plan"

smoky bluff
#

I mean thats how the classification for the lancer npcs tends to work out.

Striker (deal damage, draw attention when you close in)

Defender (either objective gatekeepers or guardians)

Controllers (area and action denial)

Support (mitigation and improved effectiveness of others)

And Artillery (glass cannon at range, hard to approach)

#

With the definitions I've given, man it makes balancing strider a fucking nightmare

#

Cuz striker and artillery kind of go against each other in a way

#

But its not like it can't work

rose hamlet
smoky bluff
#

I'm not exactly sure what else to give artillery

#

I only know that they are usually glass cannons

rose hamlet
#

Starvation Cheap put it best imo

smoky bluff
#

Starvation cheap?

rose hamlet
#

sec

rose hamlet
# smoky bluff Starvation cheap?

If you want to make an enemy run, you use infantry. If you want to make them hide, you use armor. If you want to make them paranoid, you use air strikes. And if you want to make them dead, you use artillery.
- Stars Without Number: Starvation Cheap (emphasis mine)

smoky bluff
#

Ah, but yeah artillery npcs tend to be on the more damage heavy side with the most common enough drawback that they are glass cannons, which doesn't mean much to them usually due to their usually long range.

#

Artillery players however can be whatever the fuck they're trying to go for, it usually involve just standing in one play for a majority of the time

ashen patio
#

~~Question!

Is the earthshatter weapon supposed to bee "You throw terrain to attack someone at range 5" or "You can golf club a piece of terrain, but you can't damage anyone outside of range 2"~~

Reading the attack explains the attac >.>

brisk flax
#

Earthshatter is a thrown 5 weapon with some funky properties, so it's a melee attack that works out to range 5 and is affected by cover

#

It just also happens to damage chunks of terrain if any are nearby as you, narratively, hit them with the hammer

neon blaze
#

today in "reco uses rebake ultras"

i'm still getting jungled by wolfhound missile

#

😔

brisk flax
neon blaze
#

it really be that way

#

at least i've been getting some surprising Strider mileage

#

i've still not stitched together a comprehensive like, Bird Eye View Analysis of the whole thing yet but so far i haven't been too disappointed (which is definitely a leg up from the original, which always felt like a lot of work for not a lot of gain)

brisk flax
#

Yeah, it's a lot to juggle. I'll take any insights you care to give whenever you care to give them

neon blaze
#

i'll probably try and think on it, yeah

#

the only catch so far is ironically no one has really tried to contest it hard in 5 entire rounds

#

but in my player's defence: i've given many other headaches to deal with too

brisk flax
#

lmao

neon blaze
#

a single untemplated strider doesn't seem that big a fish next to an ultra cataphract, elite hive, and a elite veteran pair for reinforcement

#

until it turns around and decides to crit someone of course

#

which did actually happen today and perfectly structured someone

#

couldn't use ERM because healing after the fact wouldn't have cut it, and bracing wouldn't reduce the damage anyway

potent jasper
#

now to be fair we had to WORK for that wolfhound to go off

neon blaze
#

ugh god did you ever

potent jasper
#

the complexity of the puzzle was simply increased

neon blaze
#

i think you spent half an hour solving the wolfhound puzzle? about?

#

i wasn't timing it but like, we went back and forth a while on that one

#

the whole table

#

"how do we solve the 20 damage missile"

potent jasper
#

went from solving the missle to getting it to hit the ultra

neon blaze
#

the solution was pretty fucking spectacular all truth be told

potent jasper
#

yeah surprisingly plan A of getting it in the path worked, the hard part was keeping the mirage from getting it out of the way afterward

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had to eat the blip with lich core

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then push the missile on the next player turn

neon blaze
#

bluff the gm (me) into moving the ultra out of its own missile radius, reposition to stormbringer knockback ultra into path of own missile, use glitch time to eat the mirage's teleport so it couldn't reposition the ultra right after, have another play ram the missile to force the system check to try and specifically fail so the missile moved 4 spaces forward, colliding with the ultra and detonating

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and somehow succeeding at all of that

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that beats out the "lich handing a nuclear reactor core to the enemy enkidu" by a lifetime i feel

potent jasper
#

it was so much more scheming involved

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the nuclear gift basket was much more looney tunes

neon blaze
#

like don't get me wrong the nuke core was hilarious

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but this really was just fascinating

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by comparison

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i was in earnest awe

potent jasper
#

i love when lancer becomes a puzzle game

neon blaze
#

compared to laughing my ass off

potent jasper
#

Lancer, my favorite sokoban-style puzzle game

bold crystal
neon blaze
#

the lich is the ultimate bluff mech

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turns out saying "i will stand in front of that missile and it will ram into my face so help me god"

#

er

potent jasper
#

it's free missile

neon blaze
#

works, when said person can say no to damage

brisk flax
#

sorry but I simply gotta hand it to'em

neon blaze
#

yeah no absolutely

potent jasper
#

you have to work SO MUCH HARDER with the rebake wolfhound thank you

#

also briefly discussed: Terrify the missile so it won't get closer

bold crystal
#

the missile knows where it is because it knows that it's scared of you and wants to go the other way please

indigo oasis
neon blaze
#

there are three things there that could be spoken for in that sentence

#

i'm assuming "enemy enkidu"

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it was just a PoW Elemental skinned as an Enkidu, not an actual honest to god Enkidu

indigo oasis
neon blaze
#

oh

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a player got grabbed by a Captive Spike and in response set their mech to self destruct

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the Elemental, not wanting to deal with that, dropped the mech. Bees here, as the Lich, decided "no, you should really keep this" and walked over, grappled the melting down mech, handed it back to the Elemental, and then activated Soul Vessel by voluntarily failing a Burn check and soaking it to teleport away out of the blast radias

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the Elemental then died

indigo oasis
#

Yeah that’s just Looney Toons

twin reef
neon blaze
#

it truly would of done sweet F.A for that 1 limited charge

ashen patio
#

So, if you start your turn adjacent to the spike block, and then you move to another space that is also adjacent

Do they still take the damage and also take the AP damage?

Or is it also like engaged where it only matters if you ENTER adjacency?

image.png
brisk flax
neon blaze
#

Okay, I collected my thoughts together on the Strider and poured them into something at least legible, even of still sporadic - I did have a Lurker planned too, but the players were deciding enemy reinforcements for this mission and really, really did not want to be fighting Lurkers for some reason so elected to slug it out with a Squad instead @brisk flax

📎 RecOWS_S3-3_-_Strider.rtf
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if theres further questions feel free to poke

brisk flax
#

I admit, hearing a 13 save target be described as anemic is a little surprising, though I suppose by Tier 2 it might be falling a bit behind despite technically on paper being above average

neon blaze
#

I don't think its a bad thing in this exact case, seeing Strider only has one single Save in its line up more or less (and it has a component on success, rather than riding only on fail), but its definitely something I've been feeling as of late with NPCs in general: they really struggle with Saves compared to players

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which is a tricky thing in of itself, because they have the answer for that: regular Invade. But overreliance on that itself can be incredibly polarising at times, so I don't often use it

twin reef
#

I think part of it is that HASE spending is uneven due to the incentives of the system. Practically everyone has Hull and Engineering, the slower mechs tend to invest in Agility, and no one but hackers invest in Systems.

neon blaze
#

I mean, not really. Just at LL7 you have a lot of damn HASE period

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9 across 4 fields is still 2 in everything, +1 spare, but more reasonably what I tend to see is a 4/3/2 spread across 3 different Mech Skills

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its not oppressive or anything, but its just certainly something to note on

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and its why I largely feel if an NPC is intended to primarily engage with the players using Saves, they should have 14-15 Save Target by tier 2 at least. If they only have the one off-hand save, lower is fine

indigo oasis
#

Man. It just occurred to me that an Ultra Veteran Sentinel with Eye of the Storm and Puppet Crasher would murder

rose hamlet
#

@subtle nacelle Bug report on Tier 2 Hive: Its Systems are 2/2/3 in the LCP instead of 2/3/4 in the PDF

carmine idol
#

@brisk flax updated the latest lcp release, Hive should be fixed and manifest should match release o7 Might need some more touching on your end tho

brisk flax
young laurel
#

Touch the lcp

brisk flax
#

I probably will want to wait to do any posted updates to things until I can get that taken care of

carmine idol
#

Send away whenever you're ready lol xD

#

Thanks again people for finding the errors, my dumbass just typing away

young laurel
#

😔

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Sometimes ya won't find any errors until people point them out because your eyes betray you.

"There any mistakes?"
"Nope, everything A-Ok."

carmine idol
#

Every time 😎

rose hamlet
#

Had a little bit of reading comprehension issue with Suppression Salvo, idk if wording suggestions are welcomed at this point in time

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Basically missed the "instead" at the very end today and thought Suppression Salvo was In Addition To the base damage from Skyhammer

young laurel
#

Oof that would have been extra painful

rose hamlet
#

it was yes lol. Still had a fine time with 2 rainmakers at the same time though

prime urchin
#

I would like to weigh in that we were 5 in total at the table and none of us caught it. (I was part of that game)

indigo oasis
#

Is 1.19.4 the latest LCP version? Because I’m not seeing an “instead” in that version of Suppression Salvo

rose hamlet
#

It's there, the Instead is at the end of it

indigo oasis
#

Ah I see it now

rose hamlet
#

I think I read it as if the "instead" was tied to the save result instead of the "effect of the rocket"

#

may have been a skill issue on our parts

indigo oasis
#

Nah I kinda expected the “instead” to come right after the “hostile character ends their turn”

vale crescent
rose hamlet
#

eh you were all hullmaxxing at least

vale crescent
#

correct

young laurel
#

You have the HP, might as well use all of it. :]

prime urchin
#

Using this to once again say that the rebakes are great at making evasion investment be worth it

young laurel
#

I wonder if it is smort (easy to balance) to downsize an NPC.

prime urchin
rose hamlet
#

ll6 Dusk Wing with SysMaxxing becoming unhittable even with half my Rainmaker's Smart attacks

prime urchin
#

So yeah, praise the rebakes for making agi sometimes be on par with hull for HASE priority

young laurel
#

Isn't Dusk Wing jacked in E-Def?

prime urchin
#

average 8

young laurel
#

Oh oof

prime urchin
#

+4 to 12 is great, the real trouble is that 4 HC

vale crescent
#

Hey look I pumped hull and eng and I got eviscerated and incinerated so

young laurel
#

That Dusk Wing be cookin

opal folio
young laurel
#

"Full Nerdy Dex build is superior to Str build!"

"I only have to hit you ONCE Dex Nerd."

opal folio
#

The Nefarious Reliable 3 Operator:

prime urchin
#

(House Rule that gives FSS immunity to missed attacks took care of that one, I wouldn't have risked 2hull if I didn't have that)

vale crescent
rose hamlet
#

I think I’ve run all the Rebake artilleries now tbh

vale crescent
rose hamlet
#

I like how the rainmaker works with Skyhammer; my biggest issues with Rainmaker were honestly just getting my VTT setup with automation + the “Huntsman” variant of Missile pods. But Huntsman is an issue on CRB too so 🤷

restive fable
#

What do you think is a good workaround for Huntsman, having multiple weapon profiles for the Missile Pod?

subtle nacelle
#

I dont think npc weapons have profiles, iirc

restive fable
#

Dang. Gotta make 2 separate entries then?

young laurel
#

Yep

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It's what Maria and I had to do for our Bombards and my Rainmaker

vale crescent
#

An alternative would be on the target select screen to have a tickbox for smart and on the damage screen a tickbox for AP (which I think there is?)

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But that requires features in foundry... then again this isn't just a rebake problem thing