#The NPC Rebake Project and NPC Tinkering Power Zone (NO MULTIATTACKERS ALLOWED)

1 messages · Page 15 of 1

manic sky
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Hmm. I had thoughts on the Ace, but today's session was canceled and so I won't get to finish the fight the Ace is in until next week.

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Avenger too but that's on less of a "schedule"

carmine idol
carmine idol
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Oh btw @brisk flax I couldn't find a difference between this version and the last for WF that this line referenced?

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brisk flax
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more of a "if this didn't get caught the first time" clarification

manic sky
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The Assault (in the Rebake at least) wants to flank targets. Assassin wants to inflict conditions and gets more damage when successful. The Scourer inflicts pressure by making it so you don't want it to hit you twice. Etc. I understand how to play most of the Strikers in the doc. However, there is one I can't really seem to figure out.

What is the Ace's "game plan"?

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I ask because I had some final feedback on it but as I typed it out I began to wonder if I just suck at using them

brisk flax
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The Ace, as I see them, is a persistent harassment striker...modest AoE damage, high mobility, "slipperiness" via things like Barrel Roll, flight which renders a lot of closer range countermeasures inapplicable, etc

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The rebake Rainmaker is in a similar boat where it exists to exert steady, but not super huge high spike, pressure. Where the Sniper is "your life ends one round from now" the Rainmaker just plunks away with missiles

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The Ace does the same sort of thing from a Striker-ly position

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The CRB Ace is in a spot where it can just hang out behind some LoS obstructing building or whatever and lob missiles at anyone in range without ever having to put itself out there which is one of those things where the optimal approach (shoot without getting shot back at in return) is imo very unengaging but there also isn't a huge compelling argument against using it unless you're specifically attempting to leverage optionals like bombing bay, strafe, etc

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hence the removal of Seeking from the rebake

oak hornet
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and leveraging those optionals are a great way to get yourself shot down

brisk flax
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yeah and, like, I get it, but NPCs exist to eat shit, so it goes

oak hornet
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of course.

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I guess I'm just used to CRB Aces being sort of a non-factor in any combat they're in

brisk flax
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Barrel Roll, Full Throttle, Countermeasures, and Emergency Jettison are all ingredients in the "this gives the Ace some more staying power" stew

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Also, people deciding "oh we've gotta shoot THIS guy" is, if it's an identifiable pattern, something you can play around

oak hornet
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it's very fun watching players' target acquisition skills change over the course of a game

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Goliath: "UNIDENTIFIED BIG FUCKING THING. Oh wait, he's just kind of a health sponge. Oh shit he grabbed me."

brisk flax
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It's also a minor note, but the Ace's missiles being Smart at a baseline means they're significantly more accurate against a lot of targets in the "high evasion, low e-def" bracket

bold crystal
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the ace is kind of like a mini bombard - low damage, but forces players to break up a little bit, and it's consistent and hard to shoot out of the sky. it's not super good at any specific thing, but it'll also just stick around, doing a bit of damage every round.

brisk flax
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broadly my issues with the CRB ace as a unit are:

  1. I don't think it needs Seeking, and having it leads to perverse incentives
    2). I fucking hate Chaff Launchers
    3). as cool as Bombing Bay is, I find it redundant as an optional with Strafe and dislike limited stuff greater than 1 on the NPC end of things in terms of mental overhead
rose hamlet
brisk flax
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BROADLY I think that it's largely okay and not, like, "wow this is a real mess" in terms of construction and what it does, it has rough edges that I would prefer to be sanded down

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as mentioned in the designer notes, I pushed for a bit more of an emphasis on the Ace having more "get out of jail free" cards it can hold in reserve

manic sky
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Now that I'm really squinting at it, does the Ace need to actually consume Lock On for the benefit to either Missile Launcher or Missile Swarm? The only one that specifically says to consume is Strafe.

brisk flax
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No, it doesn't. It CAN if it wants, and as consumed Lock On doesn't technically go away until after the attack resolves, it can gain the accuracy from that AND still gain those additional bonus effects, but consumption isn't mandatory for those particular effects to apply. It's similar to the Rainmaker's Huntsman trait

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Strafe does mandate it, as you noted

manic sky
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That does change some of the feedback I had in mind, at least. Thaaaat's what was bothering me. Somehow my brain is smarter than I am(??).

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"Bothering me" in the sense of "somehow I'm missing something, I know I am, but I haven't consciously figured out what I'm missing"

brisk flax
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There's been some discussion (buried here somewhere) about the incentive structure of benefits tied to targeting locked on characters that doesn't require consuming it and how it can result in unusual incentives and also really amplify the potency of a single Lock On, and this is among the reasons why Huntsman now requires consuming the lock to grant AP rather than it simply being a purely passive thing

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For certain things, like the other elements of Huntsman or the Missile Launcher ignoring cover, I view those as less of an onerous thing, while Missile Swarm is already designed in a way where I feel that requiring lock on consumption would make it an undesirably weaker option (it's already loading, the damage being doubled starts from a lower position, and it requires the Ace to get closer than it otherwise might want to)

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Strafe also got adjusted during this process, as it used to not require consumption either, it got changed around the time I started working on the Rainmaker rebake I believe

manic sky
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When I was testing the Ace, it was in a Breach & Clear sitrep (from Lancer Enhanced Combat, think a modified Gauntlet basically). The map had a whole lot of obstacles making it difficult for PCs to maneuver, but the Ace could just fly above that, so it was handy that way. Meanwhile, the Ace itself was a Tier 2 Veteran, with both the Strafe and Missile Swarm optionals. We did not get through the whole fight, but the other enemy units in play were as follows:

Archer (Blinding Shells)
Veteran Avenger (Judgment Shotgun, Fervor) (this also used a different version of the Veteran trait you have since posted, which I'll comment on after)
Zealot (from PPG) (Brand the Heretic)
Veteran Hornet (Lightning Reflexes, Slingshot, Lock/Hold Javelins)
Barricade (Spike Barrier)
Cataphract (Electrified Lasso)

Which is to say it had no great or "mass" Lock On support units, the only one capable of doing more than the basic action being the Zealot.

I didn't know that Launcher/Swarm didn't (need to) consume Lock On, so it felt like the options were fighting one another. The Ace itself has no extra Lock On capability beyond a Limited 1 optional. While this isn't the case and I understand that now, I do have other concerns regarding the Ace, which is that it feels like it itself has no active game plan. It flies high (passive), and is dodgy (reactive, and Recharge 5+ no less), but on its turn... with no optionals, what does it do? It Locks On with a basic action and then Launchers and zooms to a position to do it again. As an aside, since it lost Seeking on Launcher/Swarm, I do think its survivability is a tiny bit impacted. Barrel Roll is meant to "take the place of" cover, but being on Recharge 5, it does feel a little rough imo.

As it is, I feel Ace is a bit unengaging. If it's meant to be a persistent threat, I feel it should have something that makes it so that leaving it alone is a bad idea. Something like, the Lock Ons it applies don't ever go away until it's destroyed, such that the whole party eventually ends up perma Locked On. Barrel Roll maybe could consume Lock On to auto-recharge, or to take a note from Suldan's own Comet, maybe it has something like the Tacnet Echo invade option. Anything like that would make it feel more active in what it does.

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As for the Avenger, I have two notes for it:

I used a version of the Veteran trait that Valk posted some time ago, which is similar to the one you developed for it, but it works on any NPC unit within range 5 of the Avenger. You making it a focused deal (one NPC only) is I think much healthier, and the added bonus of the boost is cool.

Also, with the Avenger's Vanguard Armor being much easier to activate over the old Assault Armor, I feel like its Evasion is a tiny bit high. The Avenger was T2, so it had 18 HP and 12 Evasion and also a very easy time having Resistance, so attacking it over anything else felt a tiny bit too punishing, perhaps. Not saying it must change, but that it could bear more testing in that regard.

smoky bluff
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Well, the avenger is sort of a defender. It doesn't have armor in the same way the bastion does or a larger hp pool like the demolisher with lower Evasion

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Consistent amount of reliable damage would stack up, and even with vanguard armor, the most it can do is mitigate it as much as possible, but it can never mitigate all the reliable

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Not to mention that vanguard armor turns off when avenger triggers revenge, forcing the players to either keep wasting attacking the avenger, find other ways like controller effects to move it out of the way or just let it activate revenge and try to bomb it while they still can

restive fable
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Tried out new Spite, the more balanced EDEF/Evasion spread is welcome for something so durable. Enthrone provides a nice defense deterrent for another fella (I used a Vet Goliath with Oppression). Haven't gotten much more time in with it yet though, since I had to Self Repair to fix up the inevitable consequences of getting smacked by a Tokugawa

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speaking of which, I do like that Crush Targeting has more counterplays now

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The Goliath has definitely lost some durability but being more consistent at doing its thing is helpful.

daring surge
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I was the Tokugawa. Enthrone is a nice addition to the kit, since it was sitting at max range and the whole party was incentivised to use LOS blocker to not have to deal with it.

A book Spite would have had a much harder time contributing to its team in that scenario, I imagine.

brisk flax
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yeah the core spite is weirdly pulled in two very different directions

brisk flax
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huh wonder what that is

Screenshot_2025-06-17_at_5.png
surreal zenith
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lol

brisk flax
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the worst part of this is gonna be seeing how much bigger a bunch of these system/trait/etc entries are compared to the CRB

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working in word documents doesn't really give a great assessment for what layout is gonna look like

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this is, for example, seven lines deep compared to the CRB Instinct Mode's four

subtle nacelle
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you know... i literally worked on this LCP and i hadn't seen that ability. I thought somehow this was class-specific Ultra features, like the veteran ones

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data entry requires no reading comprehension

rose hamlet
vale crescent
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Keep shrinking font size until it works

brisk flax
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and the designer's notes give some ways to fill up blank space

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I think it's more just that I hope a lot of this stuff doesn't result in Eyes Slide Over The Page Disease

rose hamlet
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yeah no I wanna be utterly clear that "keep it to 1 page" is just my personal trick for preventing that (I hope)

cobalt hull
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Tbh I think the audience for the rebake isn't really the type that just kind that only glances over the changes and rules, maybe it's just the people I know but they specifically are running it to give NPCs something new

rose hamlet
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I mean I run the rebakes because I want NPC designs refined after 5 years of gameplay tbqh

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Approachable, cohesive design is what drew me to it. The new toys were just a bonus

cobalt hull
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I was introduced to it first as a player and I noticed certain things were a lot smoother, that's my main reason

haughty venture
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I have never played or ran Lancer but the rebakes appeal to me because they read better than the Core NPCs, at least to me. Plus I love the designer notes.

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I am planning a campaign, I just need to wrap up my current DnD game.

brisk flax
cobalt hull
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I think it can be both long and read well on a page

brisk flax
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As the proud owner of a three-page NPC, that's my hope

cobalt hull
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It could also be a thing included in the designer notes? But that feels a bit out of the way

errant needle
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Mmm. The Rebakes have generally replaced the CRB NPCs for me just for kind of mental insurance.

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I don't tend to notice the skewed stat spikes across tiers, so knowing someone went through and sanded those down makes me less worried about accidentally TPKing over the fact I didn't check that granularly. lol

brisk flax
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I do think that a lot of the weird stat spikes aren't really in the "could cause a TPK" zone, it's just weird that you end up with "oh this guy gains +5 sensors all at once"

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a lot of those, to me, are simply an ease of overhead thing

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there are a few cases where I disagree on more than just a user-friendlieness level, like how the assassin suddenly gains armor, that's wholly unnecessary

fluid zodiac
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The rebakes also have had passes to disambiguate how some things are supposed to work and I appreciate that.

vale crescent
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Assassins gain armour!?!?!

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Seeing armour spikes over tiers is wild and I never notice it

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T1->T2 armour spike is wild

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Still shocked that Spite's go 2/3/4

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And like, it makes sense how the scourer goes from 8/8/12 heat cap because that's 1 more shot of the gun at t3. But the rebake making it go 8/10/12 HC is neat because it isn't as much of a random spike but also allows an extra resilience against a single invade

brisk flax
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spite armor scaling is incredibly fucked up imo

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like, there's a world where I can maybe see an NPC that does that for some reason, though it feels like a thing I would say is probably more gimmicky than practical

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I guess it's not TOO far from the Bastion's 3/3/4 in a practical sense, but the Bastion is an NPC defined by "lots of non-HP defenses"

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the spite is already just a chunk of HP on top of everything else

bold crystal
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some tier scaling is also just really awkward because like, the tier 1 and 2 NPCs see a lot more play than tier 3 does, probably? so all of the stuff like 'hornet gets +5 sensors at tier 3' is just a jumpscare for the GM who has probably run more tier 1 npcs than literally anything else

plucky patrol
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honestly I like armor scaling, but I think it would in the dynamic of the rest of the NPCs better if it was 1/2/3 instead of 2/3/4

brisk flax
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I think my issue with that sort of armor scaling (low going to relatively high, since 4 is the cap) is that it does gradually erode things like aux weapons without much recourse in a way I feel is just kind of unnecessary

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I'm aware that you have gunslinger and shredded and etc, but it feels like an extra tax on a subset of stuff that doesn't really NEED to face a growing wall that way over time

bold crystal
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(also the core spite has enthrone. it doesn't need armor scaling, it has a built-in way to say 'fuck you don't ever aux attack anything or I'll kill you')

brisk flax
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while heavy weapons et al largely just go "eh whatever"

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with the bastion at least, it's front-loaded that hey, pistols do dick against this guy

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bring more gun

neon blaze
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yeah, jumping from 3 to 4 is a lot different than jumping from 1 to 2 i find

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in terms of user feedback

vale crescent
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Feedback, I had an elite spite on a modified nexus defence from L:EC

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It was basically a holdout with lots of LOS blocking terrain and players actually needed to stay back on the point or they'd lose rather than just end on it. I had a 5 players and a 7 HC amber phantom with nuc cav and a ghengis with ALL heat clear systems and 11 HC (+Plasma thrower)

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It SUCKED for them, they couldn't easily run to it because of the objective and it just happened. It TOTALLY shut down the ghengis and they nearly got up to +4 heat until I used it on the amber phantom... This shut them down for a turn and caused them to stress BUT also would have just straight up killed the ghengis

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They didn't like the fact it just happened

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rather than the old system save... Which honestly, a ghengis and amber phantom would have probably failed on but atleast gave them a choice

brisk flax
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I am going to say that a sitrep which basically encourages you to sit on the point feels like it's also shifting the dynamics pretty heavily here

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"here's a long-range NPC where one of the ways to ameliorate it is to get close to it, meanwhile your objective is to stay in this area"

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There are two major levers I can pull with the current version of Imprison, as I see it:
1). No save, it just happens, but without a ticking heat clock
2). Keep the heat clock, but there's a save gate

My issue with 2). is that "the Spite does its iconic thing but nothing happens" strikes me as a particularly tepid outcome. Roll-and-miss can and does happen elsewhere and I'm fine with it, it's part of the game, but the Spite is very largely centralized around using Imprison as a thing. To reach for a comparison, it's a bit like how the Aegis' Defense Net has (per the CRB) a recharge gate and so if you use it at the wrong time you might just not get it back for the fight

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I'd like to get some more feedback before I start pulling on them, but I will again say that I'm sort of mildly side-eyeing the premise of a "you have to remain on the point" type sitrep, there's a reason Holdout doesn't actually make you do that and I feel like this (from a glance) is illustrative of that

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My perspective is also coming from CRB Spite feedback which has been to the effect of the "can't clear heat" component of Imprison often ends up being more ignorable than the "get zapped for repeated damage" element, hence the incorporation of something that pushes more in that direction (simply for some grounding context)

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and like yeah, I would probably put a save gate on "take 8/10/12 damage" myself

ashen escarp
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Speaking of feedback: played a rebake Goliath in the first Winter Scar combat last week, and is it intentional that distance or breaking LoS doesn't make Pin fall off? Pinned a Mourning Cloak who only had melee weapons, then Power Knuckled it off the cliff onto mines. Checked and there didn't seem to be anything in there that broke Pin, despite it not really fitting what is happening in-world being pinned to the ground with a huge arm. Big arms I guess. The bigger thing was making enough distance the MC couldn't fulfil the damage requirement. I'm reminded of all the clauses on White Witch Pinning Spire to avoid situations like this.

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Hm I haven't actually checked vs vanilla though

brisk flax
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Vanilla works 100% the exact same way in all respects

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IMPAIRED until they either damage the Goliath, the
Goliath is STUNNED or destroyed, or the Goliath
targets another character with this effect. The
Goliath is IMMOBILIZED for the duration of this effect.```
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A character within Range 2 becomes Immobilized and Impaired until they either damage the Goliath, the Goliath is Stunned or destroyed, or the Goliath targets another character with this effect. The Goliath is Immobilized for the duration of this effect.

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CRB vs Rebake, word for word

ashen escarp
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I guess new question, is that something you'd be interested in adjusting? Now Pin is a default feature, those systems are much more likely to show up together

brisk flax
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well pin isn't a default feature, first off

ashen escarp
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Wait it isn't? Huh. Hate when I think I know things and it's just wrong.
Alright then it's the same as in core, a rare interaction if you take both optionals. Does it then fall under the basket of not worth messing with?

brisk flax
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It's been brought up here a couple of times, I'm just sort of in the mindset of (and I don't mean this in a dismissive/hot take way) that I just kind of don't really care?

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like it's a funny combo and yeah it works that way but as noted, you sort of have to specifically be looking to do it, but also idk how concerned I am about it being a big problem

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the scenario it creates is, as I see it, one where you start leveraging forced movement in the reverse direction to drag the pinned guy back to the goliath or you just shoot the goliath until it dies

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using the revised structure damage tables makes getting arbitrarily stunned less likely so I suppose that avenue of mitigation is lessened

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maybe this has been a big problem people have had a lot of complaints about before and I've just missed all of it, but it seems like a bit of a "just discovering it now" sorta thing

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The Goliath stays immobilized while it's active so it can't actively kite, plus size 3 and heavy frame mean its allies won't be dragging it either

ashen escarp
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Imo it's not a big problem, and yeah it only lasted one round before the Goliath got shot to death by other PCs. But it is a small problem, and it's within the rebake's possibilities as an active project to adjust it with an added clause. I can really only see it being a big deal if you have a Goliath with multiple structure perma timeout a melee character, and even then there's Stabilise I think would work?
But yeah if you don't care since it's such an edge case and just kind of funny outside that, and the answer within is "just don't do that then", then I shrug and house rule if it ever comes up again I guess 🤷‍♂️

brisk flax
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similar things can happen if you Pin someone who's down to Threat 1 stuff only

blissful lion
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Creating teachable moments, one goliath at a time

vale crescent
# brisk flax I am going to say that a sitrep which basically encourages you to sit on the poi...

Defintely agreed here. A regular holdout would have made it much easier but the players needed somewhere to be. which is partially based on my encounter design because I find original holdout is just a deathmatch + "get in the zone in the end" but that's personal preference and not relevant here outside of the fact it was a major factor into this but not most spite encounters.

My players complaints were "that it just happens and there is no counter play to preventing it beforehand. If it was a save or an attack (personally disagree with attack, I pursuaded them out of it to)" it means that having a very potent effect either way just happen didn't feel good. But if it played into PC build weakness or strengths would be and better. OFC yeah I deffo agree with more testing and like the sound of the keep it as is but make it on save. I do also however very much disagree with "it can just be ignored" imo, every time I've used it it's felt relevant... I think the climbing might have been a bit much? Unsure, it didn't really incentivise the swapping targets too much as I thought where their only action to remove it was shut down...

Also sorry if this isb incoherent rambling, it;s a very hot day at 1am after a long combat session. Either way they were a threat and fun to use

vale crescent
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I'd like to see other players feedback on the spite. Because if my players just took a hard L that would be nice to know

cobalt hull
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i've yet to try rebake spite but yeah i do not like core spite

vale crescent
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I do, but Kai has a very good way with words that makes me realise there's problems with NPCs I used to think were perfect in every way whatsoever

indigo oasis
smoky bluff
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Spite as a defender is really different from other defenders, they go "oh you want to deal with me so bad" like jedi mind control or something

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And when you do, they'll make sure you are punished for such transgressions

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Most other Defenders just tell you to buzz off their area of control

indigo oasis
minor hound
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just wanted to say I've been pretty interested in using the rebake for some time, and I assume it's nearing final balancing, but it did catch my attention just from reading through the various versions over the past few months.

while my campaign went on hiatus before properly hitting tier 2, I do remember quite a few times where I had trouble getting an idea of an NPC's intended gameplan, or where there was some weird caveat in play that wasn't immediately apparent from just reading the rules, and I do want to see how well those are solved in practice by the rebake.

that and maybe the alternate structure table means my 2-3 structure setups will stop instantly imploding on the first structure roll (which at this point is a running joke)

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(while randomness is the spice of life, an NPC that took up a good chunk of structure budget vanishing at about 1/2-1/3 of its life because I have cursed structure rolls gets a little old after a while.)

brisk flax
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That is to say, I'm sure the spite has worked well for some groups and I don't intend for anything to be like "ah but you were a fool"

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My perspective on the Spite, broadly, is thus: I think that Imprison's "no clearing heat!" effect is very dramatic and psychological, but also kind of easy to ignore or brute force past in a couple of respects

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the big one is, frankly, if the Spite beefs its save-vs attempts. There is a certain amount of "the NPC misses" that I think is fine for a game like lancer, where randomness is what keeps combat dynamics less predictable. Even when it comes to big all-or-nothing NPCs like the Sniper, I feel that the chance of missing plays well into the NPCs identity...it either hits and dramatically alters the combat calculus, or it misses and everyone breathes a sigh of relief as 1 structure damage sails overhead, there's a value in something like that missing (not ALWAYS missing, obviously, but there's still something there)

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The Spite, however, has a lot of identity and mechanical value invested in Imprison, and it's an ability that takes a couple of rounds of play to really start causing people to sweat

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if it beefs a save or two, that can be enough to make Imprison feel like an also-ran

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"you get Imprisoned on Round 3" is kind of like, okay but I probably don't REALLY care as much by that point

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My impression is that the damage packet on Imprison is intended as a consolation cushion for it getting a late runup, like "well I didn't get'em in a way that really matters but at least I did some damage to them" but like who fuckin cares, I have damage coming out my ears over here, I don't need another source of damage, I need a way to make my players snap a pencil in half

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The other element of this is that I think "can't clear heat" is, in some respects, not as punishing to the nuclear cavaliers of the world as something that, say, prevented them from gaining heat or knocked them out of the danger zone etc

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Especially if it's someone who sunk a lot into engineering and has some padding

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this is exacerbated by the fact that the spite, core version, has no real way to inflict heat itself beyond basic invades and Seize (nominal heat on a 4+ recharge)

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it's not that "can't clear heat" is nothing, but I think the perception that it upends a heat-gen player's whole day isn't always born out by the actual execution of what the spite does

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A big part of the impetus for me turning Imprison into "it just happens, no save" is because I think to really twist the knife effectively, the spite wants Imprison up and running as soon as it possibly can

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this is part of its vibe of "a map hazard in NPC form"

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if it fumbles Imprison or something, then you're largely falling back on Enthrone, which again isn't NOTHING, but nobody's picking a Spite because "oh boy, a shield"

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the ticking heat tax was something I added to address the point of the spite having very little way to actively threaten via Imprison

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the wallflower version's threat is, again, just big chunks of damage

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it does, imo, make the spite a bit weirdly reliant on a partner not in a synergistic way but in a "to actually make this thing threaten the way you'd want it to threaten" way

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otherwise you're basically counting on Imprisoned players to agonizingly self-heat themselves

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"well if they don't use self-heat that's also a win" like kiiiiiiiiinda but even then I feel like this doesn't stymie a lot of players the way you might think

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and then when the spite dies it's just like, well that's over now

hollow tangle
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AA_Scapoo_Write Give spite a Witch friend, got it

bold crystal
brisk flax
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yeah

cobalt hull
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when i would run spites it would end up being an invade/lock on bot

brisk flax
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which is like, wow

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who fuckin cares

bold crystal
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if you want to ruin one guy's day, well, guess you're locking on and invading!

brisk flax
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yeah exactly

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it's functional and also dull

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you still CAN with this one, but my goal is to make both Imprison more of an active threat from the start of the fight, and for Enthrone to join it, hence making the latter ranged and the former more permissive

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all of this is a very longwinded way of saying that, and I'm going to admit my biases here, I'm not REALLY excited to put Imprison back on a save gate (or attack roll, or whatever)

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like I'll freely tinker with the heat it inflicts or other stuff if it's feeling too oppressive, but "Imprison just happens" is KIND of, imo, what makes the threat of it more of an actual threat

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if a lot of feedback comes in like "yeah everyone hated this, it sucks and they want to kill you personally irl with knives and big hammers" I will reevaluate my priors

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I think the big question regarding the stacking heat will be "how easy is it to play keepaway with a guy until their reactor just fully melts down"

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might be a little too easy, and if that's the case, I'll definitely need to look at it

cobalt hull
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i think the wallflower rebakes have lcps now, yeah? next time i run one i will report my findings o7

bold crystal
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personally I don't think it's imprison itself that's the issue, if that's coming up. more likely it'd be being able to basic invade on top of that, which turns the heat per round from 1/2/3/3(etc) to 1/4/5/5(etc).
plus only limited options to spend action econ on otherwise.

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if you don't want to swap imprison what else are you gonna do?

subtle nacelle
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thanks github..

cobalt hull
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embarrassing

brisk flax
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actually

#

hold on

#

I'm struck with a very funny idea of just giving the spite a real shitty systems score

bold crystal
#

admittedly the witch does something similar with tear down, but it has shorter sensors(and more offramps)

brisk flax
#

the rebake spite ALREADY has lower systems than the wallflower version for that reason

#

Wallflower has +2/3/4, the rebake has +1/2/3

cobalt hull
#

aren't they default 2? yeah thats crazy lmao

brisk flax
#

as funny as "the spite, a mech with zero attacks in its kit, has the most dogshit systems score known to man" is, I think it's probably not the actual fix to look at for that particular issue

subtle nacelle
#

a hacker with terrible systems but punishing hacks is very funny. like a tech grenadier

brisk flax
#

yeah

cobalt hull
#

script kiddie

bold crystal
#

that would probably help, but it might not help the 'hm, this feels like it has no actual action options' problem. you could maybe make imprison a quick and edict a quick, with no autoswap, which is like, worse but would make it feel like it's doing things

brisk flax
#

the spite's whole deal being "all saves, no attacks" is kind of unusual in that it doesn't really ever do anything with it per se, it's just sort of there

cobalt hull
#

its only unique things being saves is really annoying

#

some optional don't require saves, but most of what it can do does

brisk flax
#

I think I'd need to hear more from Al to know if the lack of spite stuff to do was a catalyzing factor in their playtest feedback

#

so far I'm trying to sniff out what particularly rubbed their players wrong, but at the moment it largely seems to be that they just didn't like "Imprison happens deterministically"

#

it COULD be the heat contributed to that, but it might also be they just aren't a fan of "the NPC sticks you with this thing, no save"

#

it's definitely a good point to keep in mind re: the additional heat of basic invades compounding with matters

bold crystal
#

and the actual underlying reason could be 'this effect feels too strong for being "free"', or something.

brisk flax
#

yeah

#

end of the day, I'm much more willing to sacrifice the heat on the altar of "but I WANT this to happen for free, you just have to deal with it"

#

in a very roundabout way, the spite is a mech that says "put some points into speed, nerd"

bold crystal
#

it could even actually be about the edicts more than the heat, if some of them felt(in context) 'too easy' for it to get the damage off

cobalt hull
brisk flax
#

yeah could be, Al didn't mention edict at all, if they have more to share that'd be great

#

also like I mentioned earlier, I think a sitrep that encourages the players to stay put is an awkward pairing

cobalt hull
#

yeah they are best in an escort or something

bold crystal
#

nexus defense has a bunch of objects for the 'don't be adjacent' edict and a spite staying at range 20~ could easily get the 'attacked a character that's not the spite' one off also

#

so it really depends on what it was actually doing.

brisk flax
#

Control has multiple points, and Holdout doesn't want YOU to stay on the point, it wants you to keep other people OFF the point

#

and I think that's a very deliberate design choice, to make it so that at no point is someone ever really overtly punished by the rules of the sitrep for moving to engage enemies

#

like if you overextend badly, sure, but Holdout doesn't punish you for straying from the box

#

sometimes "go push out into the enemies" is actually the better strategy

cobalt hull
#

it seems like with base spite though it's a kind of thing where you're encouraged to break LOS and kind of hang back provided you can still win the objective ofc. this is what my players have done and i guess it's a form of area denial but not one that feels intuitive nor particularly effective

#

so going to chase or deal with some enemy doesn't really feel worth the effort of dealing with a spite unlike most other NPCs

indigo oasis
bold crystal
# bold crystal that would probably help, but it might not help the 'hm, this feels like it has ...

actually I think I have a stronger argument for something like this being necessary;
if the spite doesn't want to swap imprison and has already used enthrone, it has no options other than 'lock on basic invade' - it wouldn't matter if it had -6 Systems because it'd end up rolling the dice on it anyway.

  • can't boost, can't skirmish, can't barrage, functionally can't disengage
  • might not be able to hide(since it's size 2) or search(if there are no targets)
  • might not want to stabilize
  • probably can't ram, grapple, or improvised attack
    which means all it has left is 'swap imprison'(the thing it doesn't want to do) and 'full tech lockon+invade'.
    even if it swaps enthrone, that still leaves it with a quick that'll end up as either lock on or invade.
brisk flax
#

yeah I did want to note, I do think swapping Enthrone is a perfectly reasonable part of the rebake's gameplan

#

"who gets the shield" should, I hope, be more of an active consideration

#

that does still leave a gap, but I don't think the new Enthrone is as much "slam it down and shrug" as the core one

#

I'm also not AS convinced that it should NEVER want to swap imprison, but if it's the cumulative heat counter resetting that makes that feel bad, then that's an argument for making the tick more flat/simply reworking it

#

(part of WHY Imprison has no gate to it is SO you can more reliably put it on someone else if you want, as circumstances dictate)

bold crystal
bold crystal
#

or maybe more relevantly, 'what does its turn look like if it puts enthrone on someone' (which is the same except it can boost first)

brisk flax
#

All reasonable points, and what I'm starting to think about is whether I ought to ditch Guardian for something different

oak heron
#

Just spitballing here, what about putting just the heat gen on a save gate?

#

(Might need to be flat instead of incremental for bookkeeping in that case)

smoky bluff
#

That'll be good in a way

#

But it might be hard to keep track with edict and other effects going off too

brisk flax
#

fundamentally, part of it is that I'm not convinced a more interesting set of outcomes results from Imprison having any saves for it, in total or in part

oak heron
#

Oh, I meant just at the start

#

But yeah

brisk flax
#

ah, yeah, but then it becomes like "well I didn't get them with the heat, now I need to try again"

blissful lion
#

I could see it being more of a quick action to attempt a save to clear? Less overhead and still leaves you not able to stabilise that turn unless you overcharge - and that’s a risk on its own if you fail

errant needle
#

A random thing that occurred to me is that you keep the ramping heat but the Imprison target can offload the heat to other PCs so long as they're adjacent to it. Sort of a decision of "clump up in a ball that makes Bombards and Rainmakers start salivating to keep someone from cooking or risk the overheat for better tactical positioning". Or just be really mean and have a Pain Transference Witch on hand as well.

smoky bluff
#

Sounds complicated

errant needle
#

Little bit, but the kernel was sort of 'okay, you can mitigate the Spite's heat, but it gets to control your positioning to a degree to do so'. Similar to some of the Hive where it's "let the Hive move you or take the impair"

#

But basically, Imprison target takes heat as normal, but if an ally is adjacent, they can voluntarily take some of that excess heat, which spreads it around but does require some mandatory adjacency to do so.

restive fable
#

I'll get more Spite feedback this week if I can, provided it doesn't get shot a bunch of times and die horribly. Right now all I've done with it is set up an Enthrone on a Goliath, who's unfortunately likely sidelined from this encounter due to a well placed Wandering Nightmare and an inconveniently large obstruction

I have a feeling the Spite being on a sitrep that penalized leaving the box felt kinda psychologically punishing since this is the "go up to me to deal with me" NPC

it's like having a Bombard across the map you're not allowed to run up to and beat up with hammers

daring surge
#

Agree with what being said, if you can't leave a box as a group then a Sniper, a Scout calling in Orbital Strike, or a Bombard would be equally threatening, if not more. So it's hard to point to the Spite being the problem here.

restive fable
#

My previous experience with non-Rebake Spites is that the people I'm trying to Imprison are usually garbage at passing SYS saves

#

It does already feel "rude" because Spites bypass a lot of your typical defenses against long ranged attack or even tech attacks

daring surge
#

Regarding the lack of Sys save, the ones that are immediately "screwed" by a Spite in the current revision would be OC loopers, but the odds of them passing a Sys save with the Spite's ST seem low to begin with.

restive fable
#

(I'm all for "invest in mobility, nerd" personally so I like the Spite immediately doing its thing)

vale crescent
#

Only 8HP which, they are ggoing to increase next level

#

Their main thing is heat and heat clear... Like no matter what happens that build is the PRIME target for a spite...

#

When the spite wasn't imprisoning another target I just did lock on + invade + consume lock on

#

Like... It was fine, but it could have been much worse. The Ghengis player struggles a bit with lancer so I pulled my punches on them because I have somehow 3 missions in a row screwed them over... This is with enemy comps designed before the PC comp was known too. I swapped target. But if I was fully truly mean, I could have just turned the ghengis' reactor to ash. Whilst under imprison they reached +3 heat at the start of their turn until I swapped imprison target... But I could have in-between also had heatgunned them with elite activations which probably would have let them take another 2 stress that combat? Compared to the 2 stress they already took. So using lock on + invade on other targets had minimum effect on others, because I had an invisible amber phantom who was out of LOS, an orchis with black ice module and a goblin so I just missed against them most the time.

I used enthrone but it was promptly shattered by a system trauma before it was used so no feedback on that :P Could have hot swapped that more

vale crescent
# brisk flax yeah could be, Al didn't mention edict at all, if they have more to share that'd...

Edict was neat. I think people were too preoccupied by the heat stuff of imprisoned. It forced the ghengis to push and plasma thrower the spite twice which structured the spite before it had to leave back to point nearing the final round and slowed their retreat due to having to drop prone but this wasn't capitalised off

When I swapped it to an amber phantom I did the can't attack one... That one seemed very good, the heat at start of turn caused the amber phantom to stress too which exposed them... So the amber phantom whilst killing another enemy also took 10 energy damage from edict

#

Otherwise, it did it's job yeah... I think it would be much more potent on a PC party that doesn't care as much about heat management

#

I never used crown of thorns because my players (ghengis had heatfall too and loves overcharging) didn't want heat they couldn't easily clear

#

So in terms of what a spite does once it's "set up"... Unfortunately I didn't test it's true potential but it did feel a bit lackluster... But as mentioned this is down to me pulling punches and scared of what it could do rather than what it actually did so sorry I didn't playtest that bit of it too hard

#

Also a PC did mention to me, the party should have left further to deal with more of the outside problems. They won very hard and took a lot of attrition and had fun, they liked the Spite (just not the guaranteed that it happens, but you've expressed you don't like that) they could have sacrificed more stuff related to the objective to push out further and honestly should have and the ghengis did also over extend

#

Also someone did try to rush in the direction of the spite, overcharged -> Stressed with a 1/3 chance -> Cascaded

#

Which, honestly... Skill issue lmao

#

My players also likely would have shut down if they knew that was an option

#

ALSO THEY FORGOT ICEOUT DRONE, so really I should not have pulled my punches NGL

#

But when I bully one PC 3 missions in a row...

#

One day they'll get a mission where they do lots of good

daring surge
#

Sounds like they are really new to the game. Non-optimal loadout, strange stat distribution, and lack of awareness of their own system. Could maybe use a nudge from you.

vale crescent
#

They are, other party members have cracked the game much better but the Ghengis player swapped from Barbarossa to ghengis last LL so they're new to it. I added the elite spite to the combat before I knew the party comp basically. I did give a lot of assistance in the previous fight but this fight they struggled and honestly I couldn't do too much to help in terms of advice... They really got hard countered

daring surge
#

Yeah...thats a nightmarish genghis build to contemplate

vale crescent
#

It didn't occur to me they could shut down until a player later asked what the counter play was (players complaining about the philosophy of what is a tech action, sometimes happens, sometimes a save, sometimes a tech attack). And my Orchis did have an iceout drone which she forgot she had and 100% should have used

#

Just give the players PEBCAC as exotic gear

rose hamlet
#

I have my opinions on the whole Spite save vs no save thing but I’m gonna largely keep em to myself unless I get a playtest with one

#

I’ll say that I favor “Imprison as a vehicle for Edict” as a conceptual approach

brisk flax
#

I'm not sure there's a lot I can do about that to an extent because even if I give the spite a new baseline action it's still probably going to be doing ONE of those things every round for lack of anything better, there's only so much you can do with a long range loitering NPC that isn't committing to a specific sort of full action each round, your snipers and bombards etc

#

Imprison being more of a thing you inflict and can then walk away from does mean the spite has more actual on-turn considerations available to it

vale crescent
#

Random idea, Edict as a quick????

#

Probably not

brisk flax
#

I mean that's come up prior in the convo, but it's also somewhat uninteresting

icy verge
#

Not sure if this is the place for it, but I'm interested in swapping over my campaign to incorporate the rebake NPCs, but the much less lowered lethality has me concerned for the balance of my tier 3 encounters. Anyone have any experience with respect to the change in difficulty from original to rebake?

brisk flax
icy verge
#

Would more rebaked grunts also be a reasonable inclusion? When I think of upping damage per round my mind does wander towards grunts, but with the reduction in accuracy across the board maybe I'm thinking of it wrong?

Also saw there was some mention of Veteran template traits getting reworked in the master document (mainly acrobatics?), is that available anywhere?

vale crescent
#

It's in the master document

#

Basically, a lot of vet traits were axed, including acrobatics. All classes got a bespoke veteran trait

icy verge
vale crescent
#

Like, Aegis I think is comparable. It has a light laser and generic actions on it's turn but the thing it does is full action become a portable ball of difficulty. Spite has a similar thing where it just shuts someone down but doesn't have anything like light laser

brisk flax
#

like striker assault rifle grunts do less damage than an out of the box CRB striker grunt on average would do, 4/5/6 versus a grunt assault's 6/8/10, that's not a small factor

#

does that mean the answer is deluging the PCs in 6 damage pings? I'm not super convinced

#

I think if you want higher tier fights to be "spicier" I'd consider a mix of approaches, but I would definitely consider juicing some NPCs up more with things like templates which can give you back some of that "lost firepower" of tier-scaling multiattackers

#

Veteran is a pretty cheap grab for that, every rebake Vet having limitless means you have Overcharge in reach

#

if you want to double-tap someone with a rebake specter, that's how you can do it

oak heron
icy verge
brisk flax
#

My take is, in terms of balance levers, I think it's better if the goal is "dealing 21 damage with operators" to bring enough operators to deal 21 or whatever damage rather than "this one guy can attack three times per time, it just happens"

#

it's true that there's a difference in dynamic between one operator attacking thrice and three operators attacking once each, the latter is more structure/stress and more physical bodies on the map, but the damage isn't also as compressed and frontloaded (that is, outside of the NPC runoff at the end of a round where everyone who hasn't yet acted all goes in a big clump, multiple operators/elites/etc will have their damage spaced out with opportunities for the PCs to react mixed in)

#

I don't know that there's some sort of optimal conversion formula for "if you want one CRB Tier 3 Operator, use X and Y"

#

I guess if it's a numbers game, one rebake Veteran Operator who fires twice via overcharge will get you 22 damage, some of which may even become burn

haughty venture
#

For the Spite I had two vague thoughts about potential actions to replace Guardian, but I don't have a thought for an exact ability, just two directions you could go with it. What if the Spite had an action that makes it more of a trap to get close to. Not direct damage, but maybe something to make it a bit more sticky, like slowed or jammed? It's gameplan kind of reads like it's trying to trap you if you're running up to it, at least to me, but it doesn't have anything to spring on you unless I missed that.

The other idea is it could offer a choice to players where they can clear their heat but then it gets to apply a potent buff to an ally or itself.

#

Maybe these ideas could help? I admit I've only read it and I haven't played any games of Lancer yet so maybe they'd cause it to be unbalanced.

icy verge
# brisk flax My take is, in terms of balance levers, I think it's better if the goal is "deal...

Something I have noticed that I have no doubt some of this rebake is to address, is that the 21 damage operator is centralizing for design. When I’m theory crafting a cool ll9 build, the first question I am forced to deal with is whether or not the design can deal with an extremely high damage, range, accuracy, invisible teleporting monstrosity.

In short, I’m very curious as to what designs my players (and me whenever another GM pops along) will create. I am slightly worried that without liberal usage of veterans not adding to budgets (or perhaps just tuning budgets up entirely) that there is not enough pressure for my table’s style of game (which I recognize is a little optimized for most peoples’ taste)

brisk flax
#

at a certain point that capability comes to define not only the NPC but their inclusion in the OPFOR

#

it becomes all about "well this guy does a shitload of damage I guess"

oak hornet
#

Like, "hey, should I even include this striker if it has the potential to completely dumpster someone in a round?"

brisk flax
#

also worth noting that even "standard" NPC budgets guidelines give you some flex

#

it's 1.5-2x for single, 3-4x for double budgets

#

so like, going from 3x to 4x gives you a decent amount of extra room to apply things like veteran or elite templates or even just extra bodies

icy verge
#

My table has been running the 2x-3x mark for single, and the 4-6x for doubles. Some of that is a kind of optimization level, but also there's some fun in failing 20-30% of sitreps and seeing how missions can evolve with setbacks.

I do worry that perhaps my players might just be signficantly tactically superior to me though lol

#

I could never run grunts before which I'm very excited to do so now. Core rulebook grunts are just so cheap, in my opinion.

manic sky
#

How many do you GM for? I might've missed that detail, sorry.

icy verge
#

Just 4.

#

I have a player who has a beloved NOAH gorgon build that is basically the bane of my existence.

opal folio
#

yeah gorgon definitely pushes you towards more activations on the field i find

brisk flax
icy verge
#

I saw the new Sniper ability and was very excited ! CRB Sniper actually scales incredibly poorly in my mind in tier 3, so flattening out the damage curve has made them much more attractive to my encounter building.

I am curious about the net effect of the flattening of HASE on NPCs and their ability to make saves against ST 19 in tier 3. I will have to test and report back.

brisk flax
#

like, one example is the CRB hive has a Systems score that scales 2/4/5, the rebake scales it 2/3/4

#

that's "lower" but by a matter of one point at Tiers 2/3

#

usually where something is reduced it's reduced in that respect, like the barricade going from Engineering 3/5/6 to 3/4/5

#

I don't think there's an NPC where I really went hard in the paint going "this guy's HASE has gotta seriously come down hard"

#

The Goliath still gets +6 Hull at Tier 3, it just doesn't scale 4/6/6 to get there

#

basically, the majority of any HASE flattening that's likely to arise in the rebake is going to be something like a 1 point reduction at Tier 3, because of how a lot of NPCs have weird jumps in scaling either of the 2/4/5 or 3/4/6 variety

#

that's a 5% difference, essentially

#

not nothing, but not nearly as dramatic an impact as things like "this weapon no longer has base +2 accuracy"

icy verge
# brisk flax basically, the majority of any HASE flattening that's likely to arise in the reb...

It's funny because looking through I felt as though that 1 point reduction 'felt big'. Of course math dictates that it is at most 5% difference. Just interesting the psychological effect of seeing that number get reduced. In truth, the rebake might actually hurt ST builds since Utility drones are the biggest buff to that playstyle and now Scourers don't feel stupid blowing up 1 drone.

brisk flax
#

I mean it is a reduction and it's not nothing, but I'm also not sure if it's going to have a real outsized impact

#

Things like Priests sharing Hardened Target/Fortress and the new Remote Cloud are also factors, Ontolotactical Array, etc

icy verge
#

I'm very excited for a player to realize that fortress isn't just an optional I can include to ruin their gimmick, but instead only exists on a Priest of all things. The change in threat calculation I think will be very interesting, I wonder if such an innocuous support NPC can become the #1 threat on the board for the players.

indigo oasis
indigo oasis
#

I will say I do like how Investiture on Priests is actually useful now. It wasn’t useless in the CRB but it did feel kinda pointless to use it beforehand, and the optionals didn’t do much for it. The rebake gives it an extra edge (especially with the optionals) that make it feel more central to the priest

brisk flax
#

The priest always felt a little weird to me in that you would think Investiture would be a way bigger deal

#

that said, when it came to the rebake I concluded that I didn't want to eject a lot of the other stuff to make it more Investiture-focused, so I'm still sort of in that position, but I think that hooking it and Hardened Target together makes it more cohesive at least

#

oh also, just like

#

Veterancy

#

everyone always forgets "Veterans get +1 Accuracy to a save type of their choice"

#

pin that shit to the corkboard

vale crescent
#

I feel like a god when veterancy is used

blissful lion
#

I always just apply it to the first check/save they make and then lock in the stat after that

#

Or if they scan and ask I'll make it random

ancient forge
#

Full report later but I just got a glorious 16 damage Avenger slug pistol shot off on the party’s Hydra, destroying it in a moment of phyrric triumph at the last round of combat

brisk flax
#

lol owned

past harbor
#

(i blew up but still won, lmao)

indigo oasis
ancient forge
#

Revenge was active and the hydra was exposed

urban sinew
#

So Rebound Scan says it last until the start of the Scout's next turn. If the scout is destroyed, does it end earlier?

brisk flax
# urban sinew So Rebound Scan says it last until the start of the Scout's next turn. If the sc... 
How it tends to break down is the following:
1). If something lasts until the end of the NPC's next turn, say, and that NPC dies, the effect ends (because there's no way for a dead character to have a next turn)
2). If something lasts an indeterminate amount of time (mines, a Priest's Dispersal Shield which gives resistance to the next X attacks, etc) then that sticks around even after the NPC dies
3). Stuff like "this NPC hits you with a debuff that lasts until the end of your next turn" continues to last until it expires as normal (because its expiration isn't tied to the NPC, but to the target)```
#

Rebound Scan (and this works similarly in the CRB) is tied to the scout's turn most likely because it makes it easier to track the duration when it can potentially be affecting multiple people

#

but yeah if the scout bites it then rebound scan drops because of clause the first

supple leaf
ancient forge
#

Right, so now that the session is properly over, I quote one of my players: "This is one of the scariest fights you've thrown at us." I've often struggled to use the CRB npcs effectively, even bringing large numbers to the table. Just lots of little details of how things work that were hard to keep track of, things not always having a clear game plan or intuitive abilities - things that have been talked about a lot in this thread so far. Across the two fights of this mission, I've gotta say that hasn't felt like a problem with using these. There were very few turns where it was hard to find something it felt worthwile to do with any of the npcs' actions, or where it was unclear how to serve their game plan. Even for the poor Pyro the Hydra had effectively permanently immobilized with an snare drone. So overall, seems like it's working as intended.
For the specifics, this session was continuing this holdout from last week: #1334655875679260692 message.
I don't have much new to report with the core npcs - generally just felt good to use. I just kept steadily moving them in position to make a move on the objective zone in the last round, and the players were struggling to manage them without being unreasonably overwhelmed. The Elite Avenger saw some good use as a modest encroaching threat and surprise striker; I knew the black witch was planning to use their core power to trap a good chunk of my force outside the objective zone at the start of the last round, so near the end of round 5 I shot it with the Judgement Shotgun optional, which structured and stunned it in a stroke of luck for me. The hydra did clear that stun, just before triggering Revenge and taking that massive slug pistol shot. So the mag field was still activated and did manage to trap most of my remaining useful units, but it did make the remaining turns of the fight much more tense. (got more thoughts but no nitro)

#

I think the Avenger's in this good spot as far as first player encounter goes - it's enough of an apparent threat that they may prioritize it, but it's not throwing out immediately crazy looking effects or damage. So if they're generally less inclined to scan, it'll do its job one of two ways: they try to take it out first cause it's still enough of a threat to hurt, and it soaks a bunch of damage via vanguard armor. Or they notice it's soaking a lot of damage, focus on other things near it instead, then unwittingly activate Revenge and allow it to go ham on their structure. My party never scanned either avenger, and both of those reactions happened in the course of the fight between the two avengers I deployed

brisk flax
#

My party never scanned either avenger tale as old as time

ancient forge
#

Parties and scanning, name a less iconic duo (I do kid, they at least scan once or twice a fight now)

restive fable
#

I'm running rebakes for 4 LL11 players. On average I'm using about 1.5x the amount of structure as before I think.

brisk flax
restive fable
#

Pretty much -- I keep the number of on field activations constant but I've been fielding several Vets/Elites per fight

brisk flax
#

How's it felt on your end to do so?

#

like, any issues arising from the uptick in structure/stress?

restive fable
#

Let's see... not really, as my players have pretty high damage and have access to fairly effective reserves

brisk flax
#

honestly that's sort of what I figured might be the case by Tier 3

restive fable
#

Yeah, the extra bodies are kinda needed to keep up with player-side lethality at Tier 3, especially on maps where I have to spread out like Control

brisk flax
#

like, let me make a bold take here: I think that detaching multiattacks from high tier lancer OPFOR calculation and making GMs have to include more structure's worth of NPCs to compensate is probably better SPECIFICALLY because that's the point where players can put out enough damage to make that a smoother transition

#

that is to say, it's not just that frontloading three attacks worth of damage into an NPC is bad because that's too much damage, it's bad because it's too little structure

#

and if you add more structure to compensate for the triple-attacking Operator, now you've compounded the issue

restive fable
#

Yeah, the T3 operator will honestly just get gibbed compared to one Vet Operator

brisk flax
#

Higher-level Lancer is sometimes characterized as rocket tag and I think that's not off base

#

it's very "kill or be killed" if both sides of the screen are even nominally "playing to win" so to speak

restive fable
#

I've fielded only Rebake Operators in T3, but in T2 the Operators either died in one player activation before they could do anything, or were multi-structure and menaced the players from afar for multiple turns

brisk flax
#

no, not every PC party will be optimized death dealers, but it's honestly not hard to get there by LL9 even incidentally

restive fable
#

IMO it's easier to ctrl-v more fellas than to have to worry about 21+3d6 damage spikes from T3 operators

brisk flax
#

man this is an observation so astute I wish I'd put it in the actual designer notes, oh well

#

so yeah

restive fable
#

Rebake Operators are still pretty menacing due to Telefrag but they aren't doing much more damage than Assaults

brisk flax
#

it's actually better for high level play to err on the side of bodies/structure in the course of balancing encounters out

#

than balancing via glass cannon damage output, which suffers both coming AND going

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damage is too swingy, the OPFOR is more fragile in a bad way

#

use more veterans, the end

restive fable
#

more veterans can still produce damage jumps through Limitless if needed, but if they do that they have heat that can be exploited

I find that heatgunning as a strategy often doesn't pay off when a lot of NPCs don't make any heat themselves (and have larger heatcaps than players on average), but having a wide swath of enemies that can Overcharge means inflicting heat matters a bit more as a means to make it too risky for them to Overcharge

#

I think that's a good thing since dumping heat on enemies can feel like a somewhat impractical strategy and I'd like to encourage many viable avenues of play in my home games

icy verge
#

As someone who's run 30+ tier 3 sitreps, with operators being a significant portion of every artillery allocation, I think a lot of people who are newer to that level of play might choose designs that are much more geared to damage ( it's a good strategy up till then I think) and that might result in the 'rocket-tag' nature of combats. My experience, however, has been that players adapted for tier 3 play tend to focus their later license levels on purely defensive matters, so much so that HDA on dive strikers and camo on artillery are seen as the most typical choice.

When players layer two to three purely defensive tools on top of later HASE that includes 6 Hull and reinforced frame 90% of the time, even the mighty operator struggles to be relevant.

I think the reason for this design orientation at high levels is for a couple of reasons. 1: one runs out of hull HASE to allocate, and hull seems deliberately a little strong to almost 'tempt' you into skipping some. 2: Damage increasing options are SP hungry and as license levels accumulate SP budgets become more and more the constraining factor. 3: Operators and to a lesser degree Specters and Scouts are head-and-shoulders far more lethal than anything else the OPFOR can possibly bring at tier 3, and are annoyingly survivable as well- if you build a damage platform capable of one-tapping operators, congrats you have also solved for 90% of the NPC classes as well and the remaining 10% are most likely to be window dressing.

brisk flax
#

The rocket tag nature of higher level lancer is a thing a lot of people have remarked on over the last five years, so I feel pretty confident in saying that even if it's not a thing that happens at everyone's table, it's a thing that happens at a lot of them

#

The way lancer works, I don't think it's really super hard to make builds that both output really good damage AND have good defensive capabilities, I don't think you're forced into strictly picking one over the other

lilac lily
#

I just ran a T3 test game with the rebake NPCs against 3 LL9 players, and my overall impression has confirmed what Kai said: the rebake NPCs do less damage, but a very consequential amount of other stuff (crowd control, zoning, etc.). I might have biased myself somewhat, because I designed the NPC comp to make damaging zones and mines, then use forced-movement to throw the players into them, rather than having much up-front firepower. The players had a really hard time doing damage in the first round, despite only starting about 16-20 spaces away form the OpFor, but the lack of NPC burst damage helped them survive past that relatively intact.

The CC-and-zoning focused composition (whether a result of the rebake's designs, or my specific OpFor), seemed to slow down the gameplay quite a bit for my group. We can wind up taking long player-turns due to indecisiveness, and it was worse here due to the nature of this particular encounter. I hope the increased clarity of each NPC class can make this less bad in the future.
I'm going to test this with some more standard NPC compositions at some point and report back here (I realize that the window for feedback before publishing is already closed, but there seems to be an ongoing discussion here on how this plays that would benefit from more data)

#

The advice I keep hearing: "With rebake NPCs, use more NPCs and more veterans at high-tier, since they do less damage" seems to still be solid

brisk flax
#

like in the context of, specifically, "how do I make this Specter more threatening" just to give one example, you can grab the Machine Pistol optional and that gives you barrage capability

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Operators have Overload Shot, Berserkers can grab Overdrive Servos, etc

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it's not everywhere, and not always in the same place, but there ARE some options that are more or less just "do more damage to this person"

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also, the outcome of this fight more or less falls in line with all of the advice I've given people who saw the Lycan and freaked out about "omg how do I deal with this?" which is "against melee strikers, use CC"

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but yeah, I think that at Tier 3 play in particular you're probably going to want a somewhat bigger budget and willingness to incorporate more Veterans and/or Elites into the mix, but I'd also consider your optionals as well depending

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Veteran Assault w/Commando for example, etc

ebon trenchBOT
#

Is github acting up or is the lcp page gone ?

smoky bluff
#

Huh it is gone

valid plaza
#

that's odd. it sure is

brisk flax
#

oh right I should say something about that, anyway the github is going private in anticipation of the actual publication

#

I've got the full layout draft back from mina and all final stuff has been adjusted and I'm basically getting ready to pull the trigger, it will likely happen sometime within the next 72 hours or so

#

Wallflower stuff is still going to be held in development for now, I'm not yet clear how the lcp gang wants to handle that, if they want to establish a separate thing for it and open it up for the time being or whatever

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I don't plan to delete any of the posted drafts of the project in the pins because frankly I don't care if someone wants to grab one and I'm sure older lcps will be floating around and my usual answer to "can I pirate your stuff?" is "yeah I don't care, you should actually pirate everything"

restive fable
#

More Spite feedback

it, uh, has started melting down. So much for that I guess

brisk flax
#

yeah that'll happen

restive fable
#

Not much to say -- it does its job as best as it can but I was just surprised by how low its heat cap turned out to be

brisk flax
#

the spite's heat cap in wallflower is 5/6/7, which I standardized out as being 6's across the board

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wallflower was where tom started ratcheting NPC heat caps back from the 7-8 average CRB units tend to hover around

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I lowered its e-defense from what the base version has and may adjust it some later, the spite in either iteration is extremely tanky so going after it on the tech side makes sense, it shouldn't be TOO easy, but in general I like the lower heat cap

restive fable
#

Anyway, Spite turns out how I expected -- it keeps players behind line of sight blocking cover on a large, obstacle filled map such as this one

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Veterans all having Limitless does make it feel like incidental heat gains are more consequential

subtle nacelle
vale crescent
fluid zodiac
#

Why not?

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Something something unexplored design space to make it weird

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(it's good that it's even though)

subtle nacelle
#

kai, when are we getting an npc that heals you and when when you when you to 100 you expode??!!

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do you ever just immediately regret your words...

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cuz i do

brisk flax
# vale crescent WHY DIS THE HEATCAP SCALE!?!?!.!

heatcap scaling isn't the WEIRDEST thing tbh, it nominally makes more sense than armor scaling, you could look at it as similar to HP scaling. The problem is that offensive heat doesn't exactly scale the same way damage does on the PC end, most heatgen stuff usually remains fixed around packets of 2 heat with the occasional outlier

vale crescent
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Like the only enemies im aware where HC scales are ones that use self heat such as scourer or pyros

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Spite has no heat play and it starts at 5 heat cap. Which I assume is meant to be its weakness at that point... but then it just increases arbitrarily (and so does its armour)

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Honestly you can say the HP scales on the spite too and I'll act surprised too because its a weird statblock

indigo oasis
#

Tbh with the Kai Veteran, even if everything is designed to be used independently so you can’t really generally make this argument, you could say heat scaling is designed to make Limitless more lenient with use with Veteran NPCs at higher tiers

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But that’s something else entirely

brisk flax
#

yeah I definitely didn't really make any changes with that particular interaction in mind, so heat caps are pretty set independent of it

cunning marlin
#

I'm checking on the lcp and I think I'm being blind.
Does the mirage have a veteran perk?

bold crystal
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sensor lag; 1/round when it teleports an ally it may teleport 3 spaces

cunning marlin
#

It wasn't showing up. I had to make it so everything was visible to see it.

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Thank you though

neon blaze
#

and seeing Overheating requires you to go over the cap, rather than in the case of HP where reducing to 0 causes Structure, an odd Heat Cap value means less input required but better player feedback

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I've yapped a lot about Heat Caps and breakpoints and its precisely because of that input

#

6 HC requiring 4 raw Invades more often than not does put a dampener on my player's ambitions (even if that gets offset by Invade effects sometimes, which also do Heat as punishment/incentive)

brisk flax
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Yeah

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I will say that while I haven't curated heat caps with things like veteran limitless in mind, the existence of things like "always on veteran limitless" and various other rebake NPC abilities which incur heat costs IS there to form something of a more holistic "heat gain ecosystem" to create additional variance in that regard, so to speak

neon blaze
#

Absolutely been feeling that, yeah - NPC heat gain is typically stifled which is unfortunate, since running the Limitless Veterans has really highlighted how much it can shuffle the math

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even if I roll a 1 on a Limitless roll, thats sometimes enough to shave off an entire quick if someone wants to push that advantage

brisk flax
#

I consider that element one of the bigger successes of the project

icy verge
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Is this thread appropriate for AARs?

supple leaf
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AARs?

icy verge
#

After action reports

brisk flax
#

if you mean feedback then sure, though as noted the window for actionable feedback at this juncture is pretty much closed

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if it involves wallflower NPC rebakes specifically, feedback is still being taken on those (and encouraged) and likely will be for a while

icy verge
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I was very impressed by the rebake NPC changes to be much more engaging and interactive.

I have specific tips for GMS trying to run challenging tier 3 encounters; npc budgets need to be 1.5-2x of CRP to pose any challenge even with nearly every npc being a veteran.

icy verge
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Additionally grunts feel incredible to just blow through, I found I could get away with 6-8 instead of another NPC vet, without overwhelming the sitrep.

brisk flax
haughty venture
#

Unfortunate but very understandable. Hopefully fixing the issues isn't too difficult

brisk flax
#

Here's a little snippet just to tide things over

Assault_Page.jpg
neon blaze
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Oh thats clean. convenient that the Assault would go all on one page

brisk flax
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Most NPCs clock in at two pages, usually it's core stuff on one page, optionals and designer notes on the other

neon blaze
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aye, thats largely how I've expected it

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hence the mild surprise

brisk flax
#

The assault basically gets one whole page of designer's notes all on its own lmao

sour mist
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I've been running a game mostly in person, so when my players scan a mech, I drop a screenshot of the enemy stats into discord.

At the start of the campaign it was all CRB, so it was just a matter of cutting and pasting optionals.

...since I started using the rebakes, I had to start going all lancer-meme-ala-Vex-cut-and-reform on them to have the rebake info. Which honestly added some charm to it, but I look forward to not being obligated to do that at some point

brisk flax
#

Should be pretty soon, I'm getting the last wrinkles ironed out and in an ideal world I'd like to pull the trigger on Saturday

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gonna finish out the work week and get some stuff squared away, I've got some last minute lcp details to futz with (adding an image link, description, gonna paste in the itch link when I get that set up) and do one last scan over the pdf for anything that sticks out

sour mist
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thank you for doing this whole project. I'm a relatively new GM, so I haven't had a lot of experience with the CRB NPCs, but even the little experience I have had has made me appreciate the quality of life fixes you've made

supple leaf
wheat mortar
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looks great!

restive fable
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I surreptitiously swapped in Rebake NPCs into the enemy comp I was making for my wife because she needed the Goliath to end its turn on top of stuff

that one change is very helpful

carmine idol
#

Quick question regarding the Assaults HMG - "do not have cover"; does that mean not benefiting from cover, or not physically behind cover?

subtle nacelle
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in a vacuum, that means physical cover

rose hamlet
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If you’re asking if Skirmisher 1 or Combined Arms will turn Assault HMG off, based on that wording I’d say “yes”

carmine idol
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Yeah that's what I'm trying to pin down - wanted to ensure intention matched wording

brisk flax
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"In cover" applies to things like the snipers mark which, including parenthetical clarification, refers to specifically having hard cover or being in a zone of cover

indigo oasis
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"have cover" is "do ranged attacks against you have difficutly?", "in cover" is "could you hide in it?" Which seems on the surface an arbitrary distinction but tbh the more I thought about it the more it "made sense" so to speak

brisk flax
indigo oasis
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I spent a long time wondering "ok but what does that mean?" but then I realized I needed to stop thinking in terms of game logic and start thinking in terms of "can they actually see me?" logic

brisk flax
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it's not a distinction lancer usually cares to make, but it's frequently explained using the Death's Head's core power given that the alternative to meeting the requirements is "put nanocomp on the weapon" and then it would automatically pass that particular check

#

the sniper has no real way to do this, but nonetheless the intent is spelled out in the parenthetical

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you can't be immune to sniper's mark walking around with talent or trait-granted soft cover

indigo oasis
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Would be nice to have a way to make the distinction more clear but I can't think of anything in the English language that could do better than what already exists

carmine pendant
sour mist
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Support Grunt using Stabilizer Drones for example

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or Remote Reboot from the Support

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Defence Net from the Aegis

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there's probably others, but those are the ways I knew of or found quickly to clear slowed

restive fable
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my poor, poor Elite Avenger got turned into a payload

finite egret
#

I asked this over in #rules-questions but thought it's worth pointing out here too since the rebake assassin also omits saves with its bioplating.

Is the ommission of saves from the Assassin NPC kai bioplating deliberate or is that an oversight? The only thing that forces an agility check that I can find is the NPC thumper grenade.

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Jaeger Kunst II and Search have been pointed out as other places where the check can be forced

sour mist
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hey, engineer question I'm asking here because the wording is slightly different to the CRB which may or may not matter:

Do you target and fire the turrets one after the other, or do they all acquire a target at the same time and then fire one after the other?

I ask because I have an NPC Engineer with turrets that are near a PC turret

brisk flax
brisk flax
carmine pendant
smoky bluff
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Pretty much

brisk flax
#

"Can NPCs clear self-inflicted conditions" is one of those things that's a bit vague and "up to the table" to decide. It's established, via wallflower, that Aegises can allow RPVs to ignore their innate Impaired as long as they're within the defense net, for example. So "can you use condition clear stuff via the Support to fix the Slow imposed by Hunker Down" is one of those things that's going to depend on how generously you want to interpret it

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on the player end, it's pretty clear that you are not supposed to be able to clear self-given conditions

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you can't condition clear your way out of the Slow that spinning up an Assault Cannon gives you, etc

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NPC stuff tends to lack the qualifying language that a lot of PC side clear abilities have, though this isn't itself evidence of permission, but as noted it's been established before that you can do silly Aegis/RPV control node tricks, so it's a bit less certain how that works

brisk flax
#

turrets are basically "dumb" that way

vale crescent
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So turrets targeting is done turret by turret rather than all turrets target then all turrets fire

brisk flax
#

That's how I would interpret it, because "nearest target" can always change based on things like reactions etc

vale crescent
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Or a target dying

brisk flax
#

as I mentioned, nothing in lancer ever really happens "simultaneously," if I shoot three guys with a mortar I have to attack targets one at a time, then I deal damage one at a time

#

yeah or someone dies or whatever

#

and it's done by individual turret because some turrets may not even be in a position to attack whatever a valid nearest target is for some other turret

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they could be scattered across the map

errant needle
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Yeah, I always assumed it was "Turret 1 checks for target, fires. Turret 2 checks for nearest target, fires"

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because if Turret 1 kills its target, Turret 2 has to recheck anyway

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it's easier on my brain to run it that way, at least. lol

brisk flax
#

doing it as a mass target check feels way more complicated, yeah

brisk flax
#

you'd end up with +2 accuracy on agility saves contextually, and based on how people tend to forget about Veteran's +accuracy feature, I think this would get lost in the shuffle a lot of the time

finite egret
#

Hmm interesting. I wasn't aware people usually forget the vet accuracy!

brisk flax
#

it's not a thing you can actively use, and it's pretty contextual a lot of the time

errant needle
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Yeah, it basically requires the players to have abilities that force saves (not certain) and also for those saves to line up with what your OpFor has bonuses to (more manipulable but also not certain)

#

You could tailor the Vet accuracy to what your players use, but more often I've tossed it on whatever that unit's strong suit tends to be

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Hull for a Demolishor, System on a Mirage, etc.

brisk flax
#

The easy choice is always Hull to make better structure damage checks with

vale crescent
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I tend to flavour it after their faction

restive fable
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I usually just pick it based on their highest stat by default

trail pivot
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i usually either pick the highest, second highest, or worst, usually at random

indigo oasis
#

wHaT aBoUt ThEiR sEcOnD wOrSt?

vale crescent
#

Got a question on last line... if the seeders wreck is destroyed... can it pop the reaction or the QA to disable the mine?

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And the stupider question. Is the reaction tied to the wreck or the point on the map the seeder died? By technicality if I grappled the wreck would the reaction pop?

brisk flax
opal folio
#

just checking, is the plan still to publish the paid rebake module on itch this weekend?

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and uh, are there actually gonna be any meaningful changes to the core NPCs from 1.6?

brisk flax
opal folio
#

sweet! happy to pay for it either way considering how much use i've gotten out of it already, just wanted to check if there's any mechanical changes to look out for

opal folio
#

Does Close Protection apply the armour even if the damage is from a source other than the marked Friendly Interdiction enemy?

brisk flax
brisk flax
prime urchin
#

What a great time to have gotten a summer job. Definitely gonna be paying for this as soon as I can.

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I already know it's more than worth it, so

brisk flax
#

Okay, so with this release:
1). I am NO LONGER ACCEPTING FEEDBACK ON CORE REBAKE NPCS/TEMPLATES/WHATEVER unless something completely breaks the game or is super typo flawed or something, that window is closed.
2. Problems with the lcp should be brought to the attention of the lcp crew, Eleonor, stebb, or SkydivingSnake, ping them or DM them or etc.
3). I am VERY MUCH ACCEPTING FEEDBACK ON WALLFLOWER NPC REBAKES, I want lots and lots of that, and if I get them into a spot where I am happy with them, I will have those laid out and added to the main project's itch page as an additional supplementary download. This is called a "value add."

brisk flax
spice aspen
signal rain
supple leaf
surreal zenith
#

congrats kai

neon hemlock
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Congrats Kai!!!!!! time to spread the word about this goated new NPC LCP File, no more multi-attack operator!

neon blaze
#

Okay yeah the Avenger is pretty good

271d2bc75034798f10e46ace3878a541.png
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this scene will be wrapped up pretty soon and I'll be able to get a full report by then

lucid echo
#

The triggering character is the character linked by investiture? The character who damaged the character linked by investiture?

image.png
bold crystal
lucid echo
#

Okay, it sounded that way in the notes, and makes sense that way.

bold crystal
#

definitely a text issue.

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(corebook is 'the attacker' though the trigger is the same)

brisk flax
#

it applies to damage that isn't attacks

bold crystal
#

this is true! rules questions gets that one occasionally

brisk flax
#

if I put "attacker" there I'm trading this question for "what if someone uses a grenade"

#

In general, "triggering character" in a reaction context is always going to be "the person who poked the hornet's nest"

bold crystal
#

'triggering character' is unfortunately weird here just because there's one character in the trigger and it's not the guy with the grenade

#

it's fairly obvious that you're not supposed to be stunning your own ally, at least hopefully...

lucid echo
#

I'm to MtG brained to be of help for this, since I would go "The (controller of the) source of the damage must choose one:", but I don't think we have "source" as a term.

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(Oh, I notice that should be a colon not a semi-colon.)

minor tundra
#

Just starting to pore through all these and theyre a delight, I also really love that you have the designer's notes in here too - love getting to peek behind the curtain and absorb the game dev logic youre working on here

brisk flax
#

For a project like this in particular, dev notes are something of a necessity in order to help familiarize people with what's changed and what hasn't

#

I wasn't even as comprehensive as I could have been in places, which I hope doesn't trip anyone up too much to discover that the Scourer, for instance, went from 10 Sensors to 8 to help further differentiate it from the Assault and bring it and its primary weapon into parity

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fun bit of trivia: melt is Range 10 in both the CRB and Rebake despite the Scourer's gun being Range 8. I elected to keep it as is mainly because Melt is already a fairly niche ability, and this is an instance where I felt parity of range would be a bit too much of a downgrade for it all things considered

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(as a system you can always say "well it's a second laser or something, not the thermal lance")

opal folio
#

i do feel like melt is a lot less niche now than it was before tbf

#

now you can splash a piece of terrain and potentially prime a whole group of enemies for the next round, which is very useful for projecting threat if nothing else

#

i still dislike how scourers can't key off each other's focus down. i understand why it is the way it is, but 'shared, non-overlapping feature' is always annoying to me. that's why i like the change to shroud zones for example

bright crown
#

SUCCESS

neon blaze
#

So, Avenger: Took Rallying Cry, Judgement Shotgun and Determination as optionals. To be frank, this has been night and fucking day compared to the original Avenger, both before and after Revenge had procced. Vanguard Armor makes the Avenger much tougher to focus down, but also allows it to perform, well, as a Vanguard - using that bulk to spearhead into points of interest and soak Overwatch ahead of the pack. Players ultimately didn't seem as pressured to focus it down once they realized it had major damage reduction, meaning a better spread across the encounter.
Rallying Cry assisted well in this regard, making sure allies (in this case, even a Speed 2) could keep pace.

Determination would of come up, but I had an unfortunate case of A: forgetting I had it and B: being kind of in a rough spot anyway, as the Avenger would of died on the same turn anyway to an Overcharged Arc Projector arc seeing it already had procced and burned through Revenge. Still, appreciated as an option. Judgement Shotgun is Judgement Shotgun in the end, but I do feel now with less pressure on the Avenger - and more on its allies - it became far more relevant in play with reloads. Managed a 24 damage shot against an Exposed target, so well worth the investment.

Ultimately, in terms of total durability, the Avenger felt tough but didn't overstay the welcome. Revenge giving Overshield feels fairly different when contrast with the more persevering but restrictive Vanguard Armor, and I think the two work well to establish firmly how the NPC plays - stick close to allies, then once Revenge is up use the un-ignorable but more limited Overshield to enable aggressive play. Erupting Shrapnel's Revenge effects are also welcome, though I admit to having looked over them at first (and ultimately, two of the four players were gunshy, and the others were tucked out of the way in terms of range and line of sight anyway.)
@brisk flax

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Only other note is this was, admittedly, a single standard Avenger - no templates or anything, and it managed to survive from Round 1 to Round 6 with its own durability and allied Overshield assistance, so it got to see a lot of action overall

last blade
#

I assume it's unintentional, but how the avenger's solidarity (veteran feature) is currently written, it seems like their bondmate surviving on 1 HP can trigger without limit

indigo oasis
#

Utilized the Spite recently in a more traditional Holdout (it was slightly different due to action restrictions but shouldn’t prompt much friction), have some notes about Edict specifically:

  • It got 2 turns where it could do stuff with Edict, and overall Edict felt good to use and impactful. The 2 choices I used were End Turn Prone and End Turn Away from Size 1+ objects. Crown of Thorns saw no use.
  • Players found it fair, forcing them to either modify their gameplan (in one case ignore the objective to their detriment) in order to obey the edicts, and the one time a player did take damage from it it was far from inconsequential. They really noticed it.
  • I did target the NucCav with Imprison, but the 1 Heat did manage to put him in a position where an Invade -> Overcharge Invade allowed me to eat a Stress out of him with the Spite. Still didn't have as big an impact as I was hoping however. The inability to clear heat I mean. His strats don't involve a lot of self heat.
  • Didn't get a chance to use the Vet ability but that's ok.
  • What really made Edict feel impactful was Condemnation. Perhaps being able to affect multiple characters with Edict, specifically the ones I wasn't imprisoning, made it feel more impactful, but it still did quite a bit. Managed to get it both turns due to lucky recharges so it came in clutch.
#

OVerall it saw a lot of use but never once felt unfair, and it never felt like it had nothing to do either

#

Enthrone also saw use to help a self-destructing enemy get to self-destructing, and while it did do some work it didn't do too too much

#

Nothing against it, I'm sure with a completely different strategy I could've made use of it better

brisk flax
#

That third point is something I've seen come up a lot with the core Spite. Imprison often FEELS like it should be a big deal, but it weirdly isn't always the way you think it should be

#

That's why the current version has the ticking heat effect added

indigo oasis
#

Yeah imo the ticking heat made an impact and I appreciated it

#

the NucCav in question is a Pegasus who tends to overcharge as much as necessary to get into DZ, and then not do any more self heat while staying there, which is slightly atypical in terms of NucCav strats. Hence why being unable to clear heat felt less impactful. Still, being assured that regardless I could use Edict on him was useful

#

The last Spite combat report I read seemed to make more use of Imprison over Edict, so this feels more like the opposite of that.

#

I assume we used the same version of the spite across both too- last I checked I was using the current latest version

brisk flax
#

Imprison is more of a direct punishment to things like, idk, Displacer OC looping or something, specific strats

#

but it's relatively easy for Nuclear Cavaliers to just downshift into "okay guess I'll chill here for a while"

#

which forces the spite or anyone else to manually apply heat rather than it serving as a looming sword

indigo oasis
#

Hm yeah, could be better to use it on targets that don't have any heat to make overcharging a scarier prospect

brisk flax
#

this is basically where the heat accumulation and edict both came from

indigo oasis
#

And yeah the used wallflower version is the 1.19.2 LCP

brisk flax
#

I view Imprison as a very spooky ability on paper, but one which can be weirdly toothless

#

the core wallflower solution to this is "make it do damage" which is functional but very boring

indigo oasis
#

I agree- I expected Edict to be the workhorse of the fight with Imprison being circumstantially dangerous

brisk flax
#

question: do you know how much ticking heat Imprison did? Was it allowed to go on for long enough to ramp or no?

#

also hi hello, here are some behind the scenes details

#

Currently the rebake is at 200 copies sold and $3450 gross revenue

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This is "gross" as in Itch has not yet taken their cut, defaulting to 10%, among other fees

#

The rebake's budget breaks down thusly:
1). Cover art cost $850
2). Layout cost $1000
3). lcp team payments are currently at $500, and will be $750 once one of the team gets back to me with their payment details

#

this is an overall budget of $2600, which is basically as cheap as it goes for wanting something that doesn't look like shit and has usable functionality

#

In terms of budgeting, I could probably have eschewed cover art and gone with something like stock art or just plain text on a page or whatever, there are considerations to make there, but given the lack of interior art for the project, I consider this to basically be "the art budget" insofar as it goes, and I like being able to give peyton work

#

Layout is non-negotiable, this is necessary

#

Suldan gets by with plain raw text layout because I'm charging zero dollars for it, but for a thing I want to sell for money, this is how it goes

#

I experimented with doing layout myself using valk's Lancer Style Tools thing, and basically: I can't do it

#

like idk what the trick to it is, but after fucking around for hours and failing, my conclusion is that if I want to do my own layout, I would need an entirely foreign skillset I do not have

#

lcp wise, I could probably have also made an lcp myself, but since other people went and did it and this was a huge factor in as many people testing out the rebake material as they did (and thus improving the quality) I saw no reason to go "thanks but I will use my own version"

#

You can probably find artists who'll do cover art for cheaper, but this is one of those "you need to evaluate your own feelings in regards to fair wages" deals

#

I do think that "I won't use cover art/I will use stock or open source art" is absolutely a fair and valid approach, to be clear

#

in a sense, I think of cover art here a bit like a marketing/advertising budget as well

indigo oasis
brisk flax
indigo oasis
#

Without the 1 heat I simply would've met the heat cap rather than exceeded it

brisk flax
#

the reason I'm checking is I'm debating whether to keep it scaling (given the spite can also manually invade) or leave it as a flat 1 period

indigo oasis
#

I was hoping for the scaling heat to come in but the combat didn't last long enough

#

Then again if I missed the second invade and his turn came around, he would've instantly overheated and that would've mattered

#

Imprison really feels like it would've mattered more if combat lasted another round or two, which isn't a uniquely Imprison problem- a few Lancer effects feel as if they'd be more impactful if the user could stick around for longer

brisk flax
#

yeah that's ANOTHER Imprison issue, imo

#

it's the "assassin shroud" problem

#

4E D&D had an assassin class that stacked "shrouds" on a target and could then cash them in for big money damage

#

so what happens when you spend the fight doing that and then it ends, well uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

#

(also your target could get sniped under you, but that's not quite as relevant here)

indigo oasis
#

I also was kinda afraid to move the Imprison, not really because of losing the Heat scaling, but because the person I had imprisoned already was near overheating and everyone else was pretty safe when it came to their heatcaps, hence it not feeling like as big of a threat

#

I do think the Spite this combat was more of an "objective defender" that could've easily pivoted to an "ally defender" if given the need to (Enthrone + the right Edict option), which felt nice and like a good thing but that kinda versatility could be considered a con from a general game design standpoint. Aka "I like it but I can see why you wouldn't"

brisk flax
#

it's hard to really peg an "average" lancer combat duration but broadly I don't feel like it's out of line to place like a three-round-max assumption on things, not that the fight will end in three rounds, but "this is about as long as you can reliably assume any given thing will last even if it's supposed to be long-term"

neon blaze
#

stuff like the scourer or pyro where its a one-two punch

#

telegraph into punish over two turns

indigo oasis
#

You could go in the opposite direction where you simply crank up the scaling, but if you (for example) made an Ultra Spite that would get really overwhelming fast

brisk flax
#

yeah that's a consideration as well

indigo oasis
#

But with a max range of 20 and a speed of 2, I think it's not a big demand to ask a character to become adjacent to a spite within 3 rounds to prevent scaling from getting out of hand

rose hamlet
halcyon wasp
#

Yeah, I also really appreciate that breakdown! Despite the fact I'll probably never publish something, I'm really interested in those kinds of details. Unfortunately most projects never discuss them publicly.

brisk flax
#

Yeah I want to do that

#

I wish more people would

#

It also really highlights that if you CAN teach yourself stuff like layout it can pay big dividends

#

but you're "paying for it" in terms of doing the labor yourself

#

I know Eld has been singing the praises of being able to use Affinity for his own work on Shirtless On a Rooftop, and Tom has also been doing his own layout for things like Cain, etc

#

I don't think that I COULDN'T learn how necessarily, BUT between all the other shit I have to deal with in my day to day life and the fact that I'm starting from zero, to do that with something like this project would probably set it back by a not-inconsiderate number of months

#

and even then, I doubt it would do as smoothly as Mina did it, who took 100-ish raw text pages and gave me a full first draft laid out to first-party standard in five days

#

And I should be clear, I don't think your project NEEDS to be super ultra glossy

#

like, the whole OSR movement loves (to be uncharitable for a moment) art that kinda sucks

restive fable
#

glad to hear it's already broken even

I'm doing my part!

opal folio
brisk flax
#

I do think a CERTAIN baseline minimum amount of layout is 100% necessary

brisk flax
#

she's having to apply formatting to everything, then ensure it all ends up looking good on the page, and she's doing this for basically 80+ pages

#

I'll be honest, I was expecting layout to cost more

#

now part of this is also that Mina is a seasoned professional who even has an official position with an elfgame publisher (Rowan Rook & Deckard) and does a lot of jobs elsewhere, so she's someone who is very much in Know Your Worth territory

#

a lot of this budget breakdown comes essentially from me going "I have worked with professionals before, and I want to pay them professional rates to do work for me"

#

I probably could have, if I put my mind to it, put out a call for layout and gotten someone to do the job for a cheaper price

#

same as if I went on fiver to get a cover artist

#

but I also very specifically wanted Mina McJanda the Lancer Layout Designer to do work on this because I know they know how to do Lancer standard layout with all the attendant trade dress

#

I do not think it's unfair to shop around for cheaper rates per se

viral wadi
opal folio
#

Yeah it makes sense to keep it 'in house' insofar as investing into Lancer as a professionally viable hobby pays for itself I guess

brisk flax
#

but I do think that at a certain point you do run the risk of dipping into the "paying shitty wages" end of the pool, and it's hard for me to be an outspoken advocate of Pay People A Fair Fucking Price You Assholes while also going "today I will see if I can get full-grade cover art for $100"

#

plus, going with someone else always brings a certain level of uncertainty to a project, not that this is necessarily a thing that should prevent you from branching out, but I know Peyton and Mina can get the job done

viral wadi
#

(And, frankly, my hack-job absolutely isn't comparable to what a professional is capable of. I'd really only recommend doing layout yourself if you really don't have the budget - which, for a hobby project, is a valid concern.)

brisk flax
#

I also, speaking honestly for a second, could probably have not paid the lcp gang for their work and just gone "thank you very much" and credited them and left it at that, but I will not monetize someone else's work without compensation

#

I know sometimes people are like "oh I just did it for love of the game" but the lcp is a big contributing factor both to what helped this project take off in a substantial way and is also a tremendous value add for the actual sallable version, and I will never be like "yes thank you unpaid fan labor for making this happen"

brisk flax
#

like there's a reason I still post homebrew using the old lancer beta raw text formatting

#

maybe this is my "too old to open a pdf" moment

halcyon wasp
brisk flax
#

it's genuinely wizard magic

#

I have insane respect for layout people

#

Also also: part of "I want to pay Peyton to do my cover art" is simply that I like working with Peyton, he's a cool dude and always manages to surprise me

#

it's fun to collab with him on stuff and discuss references and stuff

neon blaze
#

after having to wrangle formatting for Squad Kits and then having like, all my other homebrew documents literally explode because google decided to update how their google doc formatting works for some reason

#

yeah

#

it really is fucking magic

rose hamlet
#

Cannot blame you on GDocs, I’ll admit I only really work in Word and it has its fair share of Cursed

brisk flax
#

we talked a lot about mecha designers and who we should draw from with this one, about old 80s military designer magazine ads, etc

viral wadi
brisk flax
viral wadi
#

I remember when doing Iridia, I couldn't figure out why things kept breaking and shifting pages. It turns out I needed to move every header .001 pixels to the right.

brisk flax
#

jesus christ lmao

neon blaze
#

yeah that sounds about right with my experiences

brisk flax
#

legit would rather walk off a bridge

neon blaze
#

its painfully arbitrary

brisk flax
#

this is basically why I consider layout a non-negotiable part of the budget for my stuff

viral wadi
#

I understand the Tech Priest of Mars now.

brisk flax
#

I will use clip art for the cover before I try to do layout

viral wadi
#

See, you're the smart one here.

#

I went "how bad can it be?" and then sunk cost fallacied myself.

brisk flax
#

also on the subject of sales, someone in the comments remarked "Bad day to be living in a third world country" and just to be clear, if where you're living makes obtaining a copy of the rebake project hard due to currency exchange rates, please contact me and I will arrange something for you

#

you can also just pirate my stuff if you want, that's cool too

#

do not openly discuss doing so here because of server rules etc, BUT fundamentally it's fine, I do not care if it happens

subtle nacelle
#

working on the lcp was cool cuz i like seeing git repos with proper release pipelines xD

#

I should probably make a write up on how best to set them up for your own projects ngl

brisk flax
#

yeah I'm such a dumbass that me working on an lcp is like "well time to open up visual studio again and start modifying existing stuff"

#

I wouldn't have known about things like how to set "you need to have the core NPC data to make this work"

carmine idol
#

We did a lot of learning through this, has been great fun - credit goes to Eleonor for setting up proper workflow procedure for releases and whatnot 😎🫴👑

opal folio
errant needle
#

Just grabbed my copy, which one of the unsung heroes of these getting to PDF stages is the bookmarks for subsections. Sure I can just Ctrl+F it, but one click navigation is just feelsgoodman. But for something that's basically replaced the CRB NPCs in my game, this thing is a huge value even if it's a purely GM aimed supplement.

smoky bluff
#

Seems to be somebody named Mina, who did the formatting

indigo oasis
#

The next Wallflower rebake I plan on testing is an untemplated avenger, but the Sitrep also allows enemies to get revived a limited number of times and I plan on running revived as a contiguous NPCs (so if Revenge triggers it stays triggered on the revive cause it’s the same NPC) so I really hope that doesn’t skew results to heavily. Best case- it’s akin to conditional Structure Templating?

rose hamlet
brittle cipher
brisk flax
brisk flax
#

I love reddit

image.png image.png
subtle nacelle
#

stunning..

young turtle
rose hamlet
#

their brilliance is jaw-dropping, that's for sure

brisk flax
#

reminds me of the guy who had an absolute meltdown over "why can't you pre-deploy turrets?" in solstice rain in a thread where literally everyone ignored the entire sidebar I had to say on the subject

subtle nacelle
#

that's... wow

#

I have never seen such a stark divide in brains between two sites of the same community

viral wadi
#

Everyone knows the prerequisite to entering a TTRPG community - whether a player or GM - is gaining the ability to selectively read. 😔

indigo oasis
viral wadi
indigo oasis
#

Next he’s gonna jack up the price of Legionnaire (joke)

brisk flax
# 

That sound you hear is me blowing every single fuze at once. I have never seen nor heard of a table top RPG that is structured like. . . like this! It's like saying the wizard can't cast ANY spell unless initiative has been rolled. This game just refuses to let any thing work out side the exact situation it was suppose to.

LIke 'By default, systems and abilities can’t be placed or switched on before combat begins, as the actions required to deploy or activate them are considered part of the cost of utilizing them." answer the question i've always had when Pilot.net through this at me: Can you use a jump jet system to cross a river: No. You have to walk through the bottom of the thing. Unless combat's been rolled I don't think you can even fire your Gun RAW? Like if you have a bridge and you need to blow it up? I just. . .

This is. . . FUCK ME there is no design space for anything 'non-combat', the Whitewash Sealant Spray, which is a written as a fire suppression system in it's own lore! can not be used out of combat, if you see a fire, and intiive has not be declared: RAW, your suppose to just watch it burn. . . .

My only advice is to take this rule and fucking burn it.
indigo oasis
#

Damn that’s not a transparent background I’ve been had

stray stump
#

Wow

viral wadi
subtle nacelle
vale crescent
#

Damn

#

Improvising is cringe

#

I'm only allowed to run as the book allows

ancient forge
#

Did they just get so overwhelmed with anger reading the quoted part of that sidebar they just couldn’t see literally every part you wrote after

brisk flax
cunning marlin
ancient forge
#

Yet another day in which I am glad I never got invested in Reddit

wise creek
supple leaf
ebon trenchBOT
#

Speedreader, opinion discarded

Kai Tave, Killswitch Gremlin ↩️

[Reply to:](#1334655875679260692 message) ```

That sound you hear is me blowing every single fuze at once. I have never seen nor heard of a t…

bright crown
ebon trenchBOT
#

It was

bright crown
#

ha...

#

I'm not the biggest fan of SSMR myself but Shaka is pretty cool, they don't deserve to catch strays like that

ebon trenchBOT
#

I strongly dislike ssmr from a gameplay perspective but i dont know enough about it from a story perspective to critique it there

#

Either way Shaka seems cool and this thread isnt about ssmr its about NPC:R

bright crown
#

ya

#

glad I'm getting further away from reddit

ebon trenchBOT
#

Reddit is just kind of a breeding ground for Dunning-Kruger case studies

neon blaze
#

i feel this happens with startling regularity

#

i think the only thing i can say with any confidence is "i hope nothing i make ends up on reddit"

indigo oasis
#

I wanna make a pickup game and that’s probably a good time to test out NPCs- what would be a better stress test, two Lurkers or two Striders?

errant needle
#

Lurkers, IMO

#

Six potential shrouds seems a good test for multiplicative power

brisk flax
#

I would like both tested, but if you're gonna run multiples, lurkers do have the built-in Bring Multiples synergy

#

Right now, as it stands, the rebake Avenger has gotten the most testing, followed by the Spite which still hasn't had a LOT but it's had like a couple-few games, then the Lurker has had I think one test with not a lot of feedback, and the Strider has had none

#

frankly I will take whatever I can get

indigo oasis
#

I could probably do two Lurkers and one Strider just to test the waters, as strider is complicated still so I’d rather see if I can handle one before seeing if two becomes overwhelming

#

Has it been simplified? Yes. Is it simple? No.

neon blaze
#

I'm still hoping to get Strider data at some point in the future but my game schedules keep getting pushed back so I might just have to see about doing another interim test game to get it out the way

rose hamlet
neon blaze
#

starting to think we need anti-credits at this rate /j

#

"made by X, absolutely NOT the creator of A, B, nor C"

brisk flax
#

gonna have to bring back signet rings

indigo oasis
#

Gonna ask here since the rebaked versions of the NPCs are significantly different- any suggestions for sitrep + NPCs to accompany 2 Lurkers and a Strider?

#

I've not used a Rebake Aegis before so that's my first thought, even if it's a bit redundant with a Lurker

#

And a Slinger no wait not everyone knows what that is Archer could have fun with the soft cover

brisk flax
#

yeah aegis seems too slow for that pairing

#

how many players?

indigo oasis
#

I'm just designing my first pickup game rn (I've ran other games before but never a pickup) but probably 4 since that's what I'm used to

brisk flax
#

because 2 lurkers and a strider seem like a strong, at least on paper (I suspect they both may be kind of janky in places but I await more data) striker contingent

#

so idk that I would necessarily aim for more in that direction

indigo oasis
#

I'd add in a striker that benefits from the Lurkers such as Assassin but that'd be too much striking

brisk flax
#

yeah

indigo oasis
brisk flax
#

I think you probably want some control, maybe a hive (it's unfortunate a lot of the less blow-your-reactor-up controllers involve placing shit on the ground too) or maybe even a barricade

#

and then for defenders, bastion isn't a good fit I think, might be better to go with a sentinel

#

UNLESS you're doing some zone control sitrep stuff in which case demolisher or pyro maybe

indigo oasis
#

I was thinking a Hornet or Slinger Archer in terms of controller personally, though if the theme was Area Denial Seeder would be my pick over Hive (too many soft cover zones otherwise)

brisk flax
#

Scout could be an interesting option as well

#

Archer is generally good but also very punchy

#

so is the Sentinel but its range is at least shorter

#

Hornet could work, you'll have a very mobile force at that point

indigo oasis
#

I was personally liking the Demolisher + Strider pairing- the strider accompanies the Demolisher while using it for cover and sniping, then when someone gets too close it swaps kits and dips, leaving them in Demo range while being harried by the Strider

#

Pyro could be something but Pyro in general doesn't really interest me

#

Would Extraction be a bad pairing with this kinda setup?

indigo oasis
brisk flax
indigo oasis
#

Hmm. True. I was thinking it could act as a safe haven but yeah no

brisk flax
#

You're making a very mobile opfor here and I think it's better to lean into that, if you're going to have slower elements I think stuff like the Demolisher to serve as an anchor/anvil makes more sense

indigo oasis
#

Gotcha

brisk flax
#

Hell, you could go with a Goliath even

indigo oasis
#

You know what a Goliath sounds fun!

#

... but I miss Demolisher so I'm going with that

#

Throwing in a Scout with Pathfinder too

bold crystal
#

tbh, an aegis wouldn't pair too badly I think(since it could camp a shroud zone and provide a lot of extra safety for defensive shroud)

#

bit of a weird pairing, but it could work.

#

(though defense net doesn't actually protect shroud zones. a shame.)

indigo oasis
#

Works better if the Lurker is the most mobile unit in the sitrep however- if you have multiple who can match them it doesn't exactly leave the Aegis much to do

#

Plus with 2 lurkers folks can just camp in the 6 various shroud zones instead

brisk flax
#

yeah that's my thought

#

you have lots of lurker mobility, and striders are set up to want to be on the move

#

an aegis would be better with something like, idk, an assault

indigo oasis
#

With 1 lurker I can see the appeal though

young turtle
#

Its kinda wild how often I see people call the first party modules something else to not call them first party

stoic flax
#

Ontolotactical areay for the ultra says it gets charges when not attacking or forcing saves. Does that mean it's not an oversight of allowing lockon still?

vale crescent
#

I assume it can work just like most "pacifist" systems PCs get

#

Like Orator die

stoic flax
#

Fair

#

Support Ultra let's goooo

brisk flax
#

Would it break Full Metal Jacket? Then you can't get a charge

#

Otherwise go for it

brisk flax
#

As noted, it's very much meant to be a thing that facilitates a support ultra playstyle, as part of the goal of the revised ultra template was to broaden out the ways the ultra template could be used beyond defenses and guns

stoic flax
errant needle
#

I'm definitely planning to use a Support Ultra Hive that's basically "how many different methods of forced movement can I put into play?"

#

Pretty much entirely because I saw the HorOS Puppet Crasher and went "I could build an entire thing around this"

indigo oasis
#

You know I just realized- pertaining to this supplement’s opinion on Multiattack, technically speaking the Engineer is a multiattacker NPC

lime elk
#

and so is the breacher :P
i think "no multiattack" should be considered short for "no tier-scaling multiattacks"

vale crescent
#

Engineer is a multiattacker that ramps up if left unattended

#

Breacher and rainmaker are also multiattackers but they're intentional rather than tier scaling afrerthoughts

indigo oasis
#

Yeah Rainmaker and Breacher were explicitly stated as “multi attackers that can stay around” in the design notes, but in terms of NPCs people consider “multiattackers” I think Engineer is an unconventional one

brisk flax
#

The rainmaker is multi attacker the way the bombard is

#

Like, "attack multiple guys at once" is never a problem in that sense

#

There's a reason you can't go "I'd like to consolidate my mortar AoE to attack one target nine times thanks"

#

Part of the engineer is that it ramps and can be interfered with, part of it is the engineer doesn't have fine control over who gets attacked

#

You can't, as an engineer, always direct 6x turret attacks at the exact target you want

#

In a way, turrets are vaguely AoE ish

indigo oasis
#

Still, you can target a single character multiple times with turrets so I think that leans it more into “Multiattack” territory than “AOE” territory. Rainmaker I agree with, though it flips the script somewhat by making it about positioning relative to the Rainmaker rather than to one’s allies

brittle cipher
#

Rainmaker is just a weird aoe, engineer turrets are a secret third thing

#

Of "single attacks with fixed targeting rules that come from summoned entities that can be destroyed to reduce the number of shots"

indigo oasis
#

I’d put it into a “conditional Multiattack” category personally

brittle cipher
#

I mean sure but also why

indigo oasis
#

Well it has to build up the turrets and kinda rely on positioning + its Engineer Mark to maximize damage output. The big one is that it’s counterable in a way that isn’t “be untargetable” or “be harder to hit”

#

The existence of an additional counter is what makes it “conditional Multiattacker” in my mind

#

Berserker technically falls into that category too actually, but I’ve not been as vocal about how I see Berserker as a Multiattacker (which I do) (the two traits it has at base that aren’t weapons are just “attack again if X”) (tho Avalanche Charge is more comparable to barraging I suppose)

brisk flax
#

cataphract also has a "as a quick action get another attack" in Charge

#

I view those as basically slantwise overcharging

indigo oasis
#

Yeah Avalanche charge was more secondary in my mind compared to aggression

#

I feel like (in my mind) after a certain point Multiattacking becomes a Spectrum lol

brisk flax
#

part of it too is how it interacts with templates

#

my operator attacks three times every time they pull the trigger

#

so when I overcharge, that's another three attacks

#

so now my veteran operator is actually attacking SIX times

#

etc

#

supreme melee ronin, that sort of thing

#

the tier-scaling multiattack stuff just ends up hooking into a bunch of stuff in ways that exacerbates the issue

oak heron
#

But that has issues with scaling weirdly depending on player count

vale crescent
#

Yeah, after usingg rainmakers on 3 to 5 player counts it varies wildly

rose hamlet
#

We all are aware that the multiattack hate was primarily for tier scaling, right

proud night
#

I'm going to be running Solstice Rain soon and im looking forward to giving the rebaked opfor a shot. I'm confident i can eyeball the optionals, most are 1 /1 to something else

wheat mortar
#

this last run though of Solstice Rain i used the rebakes and liked it a lot

proud night
simple juniper
#

A friend of mine: "I'm having trouble visualizing how the Bunker Buster's reload clause would work, within the fiction. Why would hitting 3 or more characters cause a gun to reload?"
Me: "Space magic."

vale crescent
#

They get a high whenever they hit and it makes them reload faster

#

Qhen they only target 1 person they get sad and forget to reload

simple juniper
#

lol
I'll use that

neon blaze
#

mute drive shells returning data on target effect and confidence interval at time of impact that allows for rapid gun-laying and subsequent consecutive strikes

#

aka, space magic

#

in seriousness though, i did always kind of assume the fiction for it something unloading when it scores a bad hit would probably be less about ammo and more "we didn't get good target effect, check fire"

#

mechanically its obviously a "no you should try and get more than one target if you want the funny shells" which reinforces the Bombard's role as a crowd buster, but that'd be my angle for fluff at least

prime urchin
#

That's actually a very good explanation for it.

#

Nice

flint hollow
#

Also one way it could be played off "the bombard was really accurate so it used less shells in this barrage than it normally does so it gets to act as if it had automatically reloaded"?

Just random idea etc if you really need an in-universe explanation >.>

lilac lily
#

I ran a test with each of the Wallflower NPCs

  • Spite: got shut down, after hitting the Ghengis with Imprison
  • Avenger: Vangaurd Armor let it get off its Revenge, despite the players knowing what it did.
  • Strider: got taken out very quickly. I've had them be really pesky (positive) because of thier maneuvering options in another test. Take more GM brain-bandwidth than most other NPCs because of the kits and all their effects. This is also what makes them interesting.
  • Lurker: I ran a veteran one, and it was great. Being able to Overcharge let it do boatloads of damage with the whip (but it didn't feel unfair). It got destroyed after a Sunzi Warp Grenade pulled it out of its shroud zone into range of a Sekhmet build
brisk flax
# lilac lily I ran a test with each of the Wallflower NPCs - Spite: got shut down, after hitt...

Something I'm curious about is did you feel the Lurker needed to lean on overcharging or not? The rebake's damage is much more predicated around first pulling someone into the zone before it really starts going off (the whips damage was reduced baseline, returning to old values upon attacking anyone in the zone), so I'm curious to know if it feels slower to threaten people without being able to force the issue via additional actions

lilac lily
#

I misread the Whip as "does double damage while the Lurker is in the zone", not "...while the target is in the zone", so I think my results were skewed (I also forgot the accuracy bonus, so that might be why it didn't feel overpowered)
Still, it felt way better than the vanilla lurker, which never felt like they got anything done
I think the Lurker grabbing people into the zones, where they are then in threat is a really fun interaction with interesting counterplay (someone escaped a shroud zone with Terashima Wind Stance's free movement into a Sunzi Accelerator, which was neat)
also, my Starcraft-addled brain is very happy that the Lurker gets a line attack in the optionals

#

I think they'd get enough done as a controller-y Striker if they weren't veterans. just getting 5 more range on the placement of Shroud Zones does a lot for them

dapper sierra
#

looking at the Goliath and we assume Engineering and Systems aren't supposed to get set to 0 at Tier 3?

image.png
#

assuming (again) that Systems is supposed to go to +3 and Engineering stays at +1, but just wanted to confirm before reading on

bold crystal
#

yeah that seems to be an error(by the older doc); it should be +3 and +1

vale crescent
#

I assume the LCP is fine

brisk flax
#

Always gotta be something

#

Oh well, I'll get to it eventually, but probably not for a while. I can't nickel and dime mina with these sorts of things

viral wadi
#

That is definitely the one big advantage of doing the layout yourself - you can easily (disclaimer: ease may vary) fix things yourself.

spice aspen
#

"thank goodness this release is finally done. after so much review, I'm almost certain the stats are correct at this point"
the guileful goliath:

brisk flax
#

The good news is, stat scaling should be considerably more intuitive, which means it's not too hard to figure out

#

also I just checked, and this one isn't on me at least: the latest master draft had the stats correct

brittle shore
#

So I had heard something about the idea of a Solstice Rain/Winter Scar draft using these NPCs, is that something that exists yet or is it just a loose idea?

rose hamlet
brittle shore
#

oh yeah I just meant with some of the Balance tweaks (IE the Operator boss fight maybe packing less of a direct punch now)

vale crescent
#

Like, an optimally played operator with all those systems can roll a low LL party who dont know to much how to deal with it. Ik valks OSR rebake says "nerf kiros" and take away a lot of optionals. I persuaded the GM to give them all back because it was a rebaked operator and rebaked ultra and it made it more balanced

#

We rolled him anyway but thats because the GM gave us too many repairs beforehand as a bonus, was slightly misplayed and for narrative reasons he couldn't stabilise so overcharging never really happened

#

But I generally believe ultras have had a bit of bite taken out of them in some aspects (to make them more fair because some of their default abilities were more bullshit and the rebake makes it more fair), but module fights are balanced around the ultra being a tad bullshit. So depending on the starting NPC and the ultra optionals, changing and slightly buffing ultras in prewritten modules won't be the worse thing if you're confident to do so

#

Nova missiles and short cycle lance synergise very well together

tulip hawk
# brittle shore oh yeah I just meant with some of the Balance tweaks (IE the Operator boss fight...

Echo everything Al said, they're on the money.

Only thing I'd add is against a party of six ll2 pilots, ultra op still managed to hold their own just fine, got their scl off like 3-4 times and two players ended up losing their mechs, with the others severely wounded-and they didn't even fight him LAST, they still had the submarine encounter to clear.

So if the gm is on top of their game and playing to win, especially with Kiros, you don't feel the balance too much, Kiros has more than enough tools to lay waste to a party who doesn't take him seriously.

cunning marlin
#

I buffed up the 2 other units slightly (making them spec ops)
So the whole fight was fairly tough and I did manage to straight up destroy a players mech (he didn't clear exposed tho)

errant needle
#

Testing Striders and Avenger in a latest composition and had sort of a niche interaction pop up.

Avenger gets caught in a cone AoE with another NPC, who dies. Depending on order, the Avenger either takes resisted damage (from Vanguard Armor), then pops Revenge when the other NPC dies, or pops Revenge from the other NPC death, then the overshield takes the damage of the AoE. I'm assuming this is mostly just GM call on how order of operations would work there?

brisk flax
#

If I attack your guys with a howitzer, I decide:
1). who gets attacked in which order, and
2). who takes damage in which order

#

I suppose if you, the GM, triggered some sort of environmental map hazard that causes an explosion, you would then be the one to determine what order things happen in

errant needle
#

Ah, that makes sense. In this case, the Avenger popped Revenge first which basically blew away the overshield when it took its attack second (Daisy Cutter is a lotta damage), but good to know for future ones. Striders otherwise are operating pretty well within expected parameters. Nothing that stood out beyond what's in the writeup already.

#

Higher overhead than the average NPC, but it's a Strider, so you know that going in.

fluid zodiac
#

I know the core NPC version is final and maybe this is addressed elsewhere, but search is being useless unfortunately.

I noticed the Goliath's systems bonus is +1/+2/0 and its engineering bonus is +1/+1/0. Is that decrease at tier 3 intentional?

rose hamlet
#

should be 1/2/3 and 1/1/1 IIRC

subtle nacelle
#

Yes, this was a typo in the layout phase. The draft Kai sent over does not have this mistake.

devout crown
#

could I ask some advice about how to best use the rebake operator? I've used it once ('twas a commander, if it matters) and nothing about it really. . . clicked. the (relatively) inaccurate rpr meant that I wanted to be closer to the PCs to bypass cover and such. however, it's an operator, so it's very flimsy. I never felt like I could position it right and it got left out in the open after taking a shot often. is this intentional? am I screwing something up?

rose hamlet
indigo oasis
#

And also prioritize survivability over accuracy

rose hamlet
#

Grab the accuracy if you can safely get back to cover yeah

#

If not, then don’t

indigo oasis
#

Because you have Strike and Fade, but more importantly Reliable damage, there are contingencies in place to make sure you can just strike from a distance and stay safe

rose hamlet
#

Operator is like the Mongolian Horse Archers who stay just out of reach and pepper you with arrows all the while

#

The sanctioned action is to kite

indigo oasis
#

Just make sure that if you think you’ll miss, aim for an unarmored target

#

The Crit effect is there specifically when you decide to Strike an Armored Target

brittle cipher
#

Just keep going, it'll work this time I promise

brisk flax
#

No rebake NPC should really be an island, the operator is the NPC that feels this perhaps more keenly in the sense that the CRB operator is ridiculously self-sufficient and has no real need for teamwork

#

Defensively, NPCs can provide cover for the operator, other defensive bonuses like priest overshield, etc

#

You also need to consider who you're targeting and how. High evasion low armor targets may be hard to land a decisive hit on unless you commit to aggressive teleporting, but you have Reliable damage to achieve some effect on that sort of target

#

Lower evasion targets may be tougher and considering whether to try and crit fish for the burn is a consideration, etc

devout crown
#

many thanks! I will take this all into consideration. I think that, perhaps, the PCs being a Gorgon, Habsburger, and one striker might’ve screwed with my ability to properly, well, hit things

#

next time I run an operator, I might slap a hive with crb’s seeker cloud in the opfor for support

indigo oasis
# devout crown many thanks! I will take this all into consideration. I think that, perhaps, the...

A Gorgon would be a toughie to deal with, but I’d personally risk the Metastatic Paralysis and target it if the Striker isn’t exposing itself- only Scylla + the Core triggers from attacking the Gorgon specifically, and even as a damage sponge it has no armor, so it’s likely your 2nd safest target to pepper with hits, and if you crit on it it’s not an HA frame so the burn should hurt more

#

The Hapsburg meanwhile is a near non-target, as even at 6 evasion and little reason to increase it the multitudes of difficulty stacking + armor make it a risky target in most situations

#

Also Eisen Shield

#

If the Striker has no armor tho, then yeah just attack it missing is better than nothing

devout crown
#

yeah, I was trying to threaten the gorgon by dragging it out of position (thanks rebake goliath!) so that it would be away from the habsburg and an easier target, but that kept not working. then the operator got grabbed by the habsburg and just struggled until the sitrep was won 💀

indigo oasis
#

Heh, yeah that happens

pseudo merlin
#

Apologies if this has been addressed (Discord search does not work well in threads): does the .lcp import into Foundry easily, or will I need to do some manual adjustments to get the NPCs made?

devout crown
smoky bluff
#

Some NPCs that work well with the Operator are other Defenders, the Operator is vulnerable to being chased, so having a roadblock NPC like the sentinel, goliath or pyro is a great way to use the Operator

#

Bastion also works quite well, with the Operator also working great by just hiding behind the Bastion to keep shooting enemies that come close

#

The defender have to step up if the operator is forced in a bad position

devout crown
#

I attempted that strat, actually! I had a goliath and an aegis in the opfor. I, uh, didn’t position well.

smoky bluff
#

Having fast melee strikers also helps to tie down players

devout crown
indigo oasis
smoky bluff
#

Fun fact, being prone does nothing to the operator's base movement other than making it easier to hit you and unable to boost

#

Cuz they just teleport

indigo oasis
#

Y-yeah I guess that’s how it’d work

devout crown
#

oh yeah, teleporting ignores diff terrain. wacky

#

huh

indigo oasis
#

It’d be neat if there was a rider to a Support ability that cleared prone- like Empowered Cloud or smthn

twin reef
#

Yeah, but PCs don't have any way to clear prone off allies either.

#

Actually, no, they have one way. Tesseract.

smoky bluff
#

It is a recharge 6 system but this is basically it

indigo oasis
#

Oh I guess I missed that

halcyon wasp
pseudo merlin
#

Thanks! Do I import just the rebake, or the base NPC .lcp and then the rebake?

rose hamlet
#

You can just import the rebake iirc

#

Compcon enforces dependencies, but I don’t believe Foundry does at the moment

brisk flax
#

If it can be done (easily, by them) then I'll see about getting it done in the moderate-ish future

#

otherwise, as noted, I think it imports just fine into foundry

brisk flax
#

The Operator can act somewhat independently if it has some persistent sort of buff going for it, and I think they benefit from those effects very strongly

#

Also, I think Pyros are potentially a real mean Operator pairing

#

being able to teleport around all the fires the Pyro sets, making use of Firebreak defensively, etc

#

and if you do happen to land a burn crit, that can synergize with the Pyro if it's in a position to

blissful lion
#

I ran an operator with a bastion and it was highly effective

#

bastion's able to provide cover + resistance, and when each of them have spare QAs they can help to reload or lock on for the other

halcyon wasp
brisk flax
#

Not overwriting core NPC ids is pretty important stuff, as the rebake isn't meant to do that, so preserving that element is paramount

opal folio
#

The seeder's Mag Mines movement can't cause a mine to go off, right? If a player finds that the mine's moved next to them they can just disarm it as normal on their turn?

brisk flax
# 
arms at the end of the deploying character’s turn and –
unless otherwise specified – is triggered when any
character enters an adjacent space. Characters leaving
an adjacent space will not trigger a mine.```
#

The trigger for mines is "someone moves adjacent" (voluntarily or not)

#

the mine moving adjacent to someone doesn't do it

#

It's like razor swarms, if a Hive moves a razor swarm on top of you it won't immediately cause you to take burn because you didn't move into it, that's why things like that have an "or if you start your turn within the zone" clause as well, to cover scenarios like that

#

note that mag mines are both a "may" and the movement is "up to 2 spaces," so you have some flexibility there

spice aspen
#

assuming feedback is still being accepted on wallflower rebakes: I ran a strider and it worked pretty well! this particular one did have hades missiles grafted onto it but that didn't significantly affect how it played. this particular map (top of a moving train) was pretty light on cover but it still didn't feel like, oppressively strong like the RAW one does. it worked well with a grunt defender backing it up. speaking from a GM perspective, I enjoyed the "stay in existing kit for a bonus" thing a lot; it felt self-synergistic and I think kind of helped amplify the whole vibe of strider being flexible

#

I could definitely feel the loss of accuracy on its long rifle. even with the kit bonus lock on, it did whiff a few shots. I don't think that's a problem, because there are other sources of accuracy and my PCs are tier 3 and running evasion-heavy setups (dusk wing with flicker field is the big one, plus hecatoncheires razor swarm for soft cover), but I figured I'd note it just in case it helps at all

#

I wanted to try out adaptive camo to see how it felt, too, but this comp is packing a lotus projector so it didn't come up. same with uhhhhhh spare parts -- it got Sherman Moment'd and took like 13 burn to the face so it didn't get a chance to use it :p

brisk flax
#

I'll keep the note on the rifle in mind, it's true that swapping into the kit and then firing might feel a bit constrained with the dynamic of having to wait until the next turn for the free lock on, making the rifle upon swap much less enticing

#

The Assault has a similar base to-hit value BUT has a way to get accuracy on the same turn they shoot (via flanking or choosing suitable targets) and right now the strider doesn't

spice aspen
#

yeah, it does have longer setup times as a result of that. I think its high speed helps it a bit, though, as I never super felt like it was too sluggish and couldn't keep up; it fills the speedy artillery niche quite well

brisk flax
#

Since I adjusted the to-hit rate away from the wallflower version of +0, +1 Accuracy, I'm going to look and see if a different base value works better

spice aspen
#

although this map was very uhhhh unconventional, which might have skewed that in its favor a bit

brisk flax
#

like, this might be one of the rare cases where I consider giving an NPC that didn't have it previously something like a +2/4/6

errant needle
#

There was a weird interaction I came across with the Strider, wherein a mortar using Lancaster player got Flashbanged which reduced their LOS to adjacent hexes, but then was planning to use the mortar (which has arcing and thus doesn't require LOS), and I wasn't quite sure if it'd still be able to fire. I suppose in-fiction, a mortar firing blindly on coordinates supplied by another mech isn't exactly unrealistic, but it did cause me a moment of wondering whether that would work that way.

brisk flax
#

at the very least, I think +1/2/3 shouldn't be out of order

brisk flax
#

"doesn't have LoS" is ignored by "doesn't need LoS"

#

same with seeking

spice aspen
#

that makes sense yeah. a small bump could help it out for sure; I do think it did actually miss an attack by 1 on the roll at some point kitteehee

errant needle
#

When blinded, use bullets with eyes

brisk flax
#

this is why blind, while a very potent debuff, isn't quite on par with Jammed

#

nanocomp, gandivas, etc, all very popular and prevalent things can ignore it

spice aspen
#

also just in case it helps, when I say "unconventional map" this is what I'm illustrating. PCs started out on the left and gradually advanced to the right, with enemies deploying in hover flight on the sides and boarding up ahead to cut off their approach. this is a bit of a crummy secondhand screenshot because I'm not at my PC at the moment but it hopefully helps illustrate a bit; if this is too out of the norm for the feeback to the terribly helpful then that's fair enough honestly :p

image.png
errant needle
#

I will say, the range specific invisibility worked out quite well. Two Striders avoided being Sherman core laser'd to death (unlike the guy on the far side of them) due to lucky invisible rolls, but then a Tortuga walked up to point blank range and just shoved a shotgun in one's face.

bold crystal
#

very good 'range band' ability.

indigo oasis
#

Ran an Avenger w/ Fervor recently (untemplated but because of a map gimmick it had 2 structure- don’t worry about it)- against the Zheng player (or all of them) it was harassing it never not succeeded on getting Erupting Shrapnel off, making it really hard to damage before shifting into revenge mode.

Moreover while Fervor didn’t do much on it’s Ronin ally who already got hit with a Dispersal Shield it did give a dangerous durability bonus to the Ultra Vet Pyro. It was dealing a lot of damage and impossible to take out by the lone Striker, and the artillery couldn’t get a good bead on it nor put a dent in its armor before it triggered Revenge.

After it triggered revenge it went down easily, but I did make use of swapping Lock On out of its action rotation in exchange for Invade since it now had the accuracy to open with it, allowing it to try and Stress the Zheng with the other heat sources as well as ensure Erupting Shrapnel continued to trigger consistently + made it more durable.

I will say it did feel like it didn’t have much in terms of actions so its turns were really samey, but this isn’t really a bad thing plus base Avenger is much the same. Hell relying on basic actions + Slug Pistol made it feel more dangerous than the last Rebake Avenger I ran, which had a Judgement Shotgun and could teleport

brisk flax
#

yeah after a certain point there's only so much "unique action rotation" a lancer NPC can have

#

like I agree if an NPC is down to just spamming shit while rooted in place, one of my concerns for the Spite, that can be a bit of an issue, but "lock on + aggressive action" is like Ranged Striker 101

bold crystal
#

some guys just have a gun.

indigo oasis
#

It was absolutely the second most dangerous NPC in the Sitrep and it only had 1 optional and nothing else (and also the map gimmick), and it was accompanied by a Veteran Ultra Pyro and a Commander Elite Priest with Glitch Scanners + Blip grafted to it

#

It also did a funny thing where it got hit with Investiture, then the priest died leaving it with the same bonuses but permanent and better. That’s not a problem or anything I just thought it was cool.

brisk flax
#

that is pretty funny yeah

#

so far, on the whole, the rebake Avenger seems to be in the most solid place

#

not saying don't give me more feedback, but at the moment it feels the most like "yeah this is working"

indigo oasis
#

If I had to say something, I could say you could drop it’s systems by 1 so the Invade + Erupting Shrapnel combo was less self sufficient but that’s it and I don’t feel strongly about it

#

It was a potent combo but it’s potent on any striker with a decently accurate weapon- I was just learning how potent it was this fight

brisk flax
#

Also the Avenger's Systems is -1 across the board, so are you proposing it go lower?

bold crystal
#

I'm assuming invade target for impair > shoot target > they make the save with impaired
but, uh, I think you missed that post-revenge erupting shrapnel doesn't need a save

indigo oasis
brisk flax
#

yeah I figured it might be the impaired synergy

indigo oasis
brisk flax
#

yeah -1 isn't like in the dumpster, BUT I tend to value it as "generally not great at hacking" considering there's no scaling on it either

indigo oasis
#

The Zheng was feeling extremely harassed by Shrapnel Rounds- the player often kept complaining about just being unable to do anything because Erupting Shrapnel just kept keeping him from doing his thing and kinda defanged him

brisk flax
#

it's not garbage and a number of mechs don't have good e-defense anyway, though I tend to assume those ones will probably be putting points into engineering

indigo oasis
#

Probably more a build thing than an NPC thing

brisk flax
#

yeah idk, sometimes the bear gets you

#

this version even does less damage

#

I'm guessing the movement is the one that really hurt

indigo oasis
#

He was planning on putting points in engineering, but at this point. In the campaign he hasn’t gotten to that point

indigo oasis
#

It was mainly just the damage

#

And the fact he kept getting hit and failing the save

brisk flax
#

dang okay, well you can tell him it could've been worse