#The NPC Rebake Project and NPC Tinkering Power Zone (NO MULTIATTACKERS ALLOWED)

1 messages · Page 13 of 1

brisk flax
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"on crit" is just random bullshit

neon blaze
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also it feels ill-fitting honestly

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not that the Operator is like. not able to deal with armor, but it doesn't feel like the anti-armor + resistance gun

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Burn at least has application outside of smacking a Drake

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admittedly though I saw the potential for 9 Burn and instinctively went "wow, i can cosplay as a CRB T3 Hive again"

smoky bluff
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This actually makes the operator one of the highest burn damage potential mech in the rebake

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Which i felt somewhat missing due to the Hive damage being reduced

vale crescent
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Wasn't hive burn damage increased?

smoky bluff
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Was it?

vale crescent
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To regular amounts

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I think

neon blaze
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It was, yeah. It just lost its weird attack scaling

smoky bluff
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Hm, maybe that was like a few iterations ago

bold crystal
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it went from 3/6/9 (via multiattack) to 2/3/4 to 3/4/5

neon blaze
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CRB Hive is 3 damage and +1 attack per tier

vale crescent
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Also pyros can still do double burn on their attacks

smoky bluff
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Yeah but that's like for 6 burn, which is still impressive, it does require some set up

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6 burn in an area still

neon blaze
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at Tier 1, sure

smoky bluff
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Damn this probably fixed most of my woes with the operator surprisingly, the rest of the operator kit is just a git gud kit now

neon blaze
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without counting the original burn also

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so its more like 3+6

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which then goes to 4+8 and 5+10 with tier up

smoky bluff
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That's a lot of fire

neon blaze
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Pyro can do a lot if you let them

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that hasn't changed from CRB at all

wet raven
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Hello! is there an LCP for these changes?

smoky bluff
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Not yet

brisk flax
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the hive in the CRB is a weird damage thing in that its damage scales very high by tier for no apparant reason and also it can be built for damage with several optionals like electro-nanite cloud and seeker cloud or whatever the other weapon is called, and I'm not sure I consider "dealing damage" to be a thing the hive is really, like, designed for

brisk flax
neon blaze
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if anything the Pyro's job is just even easier now firebreak does actual fire

smoky bluff
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But the current lcp iteration is 1.5

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So you can find it in the github

brisk flax
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yeah there's actually a very prominent lcp

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if you mean "this one specific change I am spitballing" then no because I came up with it like 5 minutes ago, but the rebake is robustly supported electronically

brisk flax
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this is also in the pins

neon blaze
brisk flax
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like

wet raven
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Thanks boss! Saw the pins but I guess my monitor was too small. Awesome work

brisk flax
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no worries

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anyway, like, I do like the hive, BUT I think the hive is in a weird assault-ish place of "has everything, has no real friction"

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it's tanky, it has control, you can build it for damage, it has high speed, basically it's ONLY a lack of range

neon blaze
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its definitely eating a lion's share of stuff yeah

indigo oasis
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I can’t tell if this is a joke or not tbh because… idk it feels hard to believe it seeing it o_o

brisk flax
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I don't think controllers all need to be one note, I'm fine with it being "the tough closer ranged guy" but when people spitball "how do I make a manticore using the NPCs?" my actual suggestion has, moreso than berserkers or mashing scourers and bastions together or whatever, been "use a hive"

smoky bluff
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The greedy hive

smoky bluff
wet raven
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As a new GM for a new group, the Hive is very nice. Area denial plus the tech attack taught my players that unga bunga is not always the viable tactic

neon blaze
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Archer was similarly something I was surprised by when it came to durability when I started to GM for lancer more

brisk flax
smoky bluff
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Sometimes you just need a little more armor piercing

neon blaze
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16 to 20 HP jump is not too irregular for some NPCs but definitely felt wild for that particular one

smoky bluff
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And its not like you'll get it everytime

indigo oasis
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Tbh 7 to 11 burn on a crit feels like a bit much imo so I think I’ll avoid it but good to know. Like that’s higher than a Pyro and Scourer

smoky bluff
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Although this does make the chase more exhilarating with a Blackbeard

neon blaze
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(and then tier 3 throws that out the window and gives it 1 armor instead for SOME reason)

smoky bluff
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Play safe or destroy both of you

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Although I do have to wonder what happens if you give the operator one of those deadly crit traits

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That might snowball a bittt too much

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Like spec ops

brisk flax
smoky bluff
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But that would be very funny though

brisk flax
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how much more is 7 burn worth than 7 damage

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it's AP obviously and there's the chance of persistence

bold crystal
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about 1.5x as much, on average,

brisk flax
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AP is roughly evaluated as being "worth" about 1.5 damage in the wild on average

indigo oasis
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I thought that was Burn overall- factoring in both AP + DoT

brisk flax
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but the burn check is a thing that falls off in potency over time because it's based on a flat 10

indigo oasis
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Still potent at tier 1

smoky bluff
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And with deadly traits

brisk flax
indigo oasis
brisk flax
indigo oasis
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I do like AP on a crit tho

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Makes it so that against slower armored targets Strike is still appealing

brisk flax
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I'm not doing AP on a crit

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I think that, as an effect, is extremely anemic tbh

smoky bluff
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Oh, I should probably note that down in my head somewhere, with the bonus damage talents and tokugawa. That probably should've tick it off for me

indigo oasis
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Hm. Fair enough

brisk flax
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armor averages in lancer are not that high for that to be worthwhile

indigo oasis
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And you definitely don’t wanna go Berserker and Shred on a crit lmao

brisk flax
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which, again, brings me back to "in practice, how much more is burn buying you on an already high damage attack"

smoky bluff
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It also might not help against insulated players

brisk flax
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like this goes back to a thing: what is AP more valuable on, aux weapons or superheavy weapons?

smoky bluff
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If you do crit it does nothing

indigo oasis
neon blaze
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apparently, 2 limited charges vs 1 limited charge for just AP if we want to use Walking Armory as a benchmark (which we should, because its good)

this is only half serious, mind. in actual seriousness - Burn is obviously More than AP but not actually that much more, and considering my time spent in the homebrew sphere everyone more or less treats Burn and AP in a similar ballpark anyway

brisk flax
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like I want to say that obviously burn isn't bad, but I think there's a perception of burn as being the Uber Damage that may not actually be as warranted

smoky bluff
indigo oasis
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That is true actually

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Although I’d say the Artillery would be more of a warning against it but 100% agree on the Multiattack thing

smoky bluff
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Its even funnier with overload shot now

neon blaze
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like, unironically, I think you could make the Krakatoa today in a alt-reality Lancer where burn wasn't invented that is just 5 or 6 flat AP Energy and people would probably not look into it too harshly

smoky bluff
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Go operator, do crimes!

bold crystal
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burn is just fairly scary. not necessarily because it'll do anything extra, but because if it does then you have to consider that future and plan around it.

brisk flax
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right

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I think it does pose a threat and certainly people have failed burn checks, it does happen

bold crystal
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even if it does nothing it puts extra pressure into the combat.

smoky bluff
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It can potentially deal double damage but maybe not cuz you invest in engineering

brisk flax
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but I think there's a sense that burn's extra damage is more guaranteed than it sometimes is

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it's a thing I wouldn't pull the trigger on without actual testing, but as I said, I think just "AP on crit" is not sufficiently impactful on its own

indigo oasis
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I could see a case for instead of burn some sort of condition is applied. Less damage and more control, like the Cataphract

smoky bluff
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It also gives the player more reason to be concerned over burn

neon blaze
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Hhhhonestly, Operator just doesn't scream control to me

indigo oasis
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Fair enough

smoky bluff
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Might be a good time to pull up the Whitewash from the lancaster

neon blaze
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and this is after throwing a Singularity Grenade at someones head

indigo oasis
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Didn’t feel like a strong case but thought it was worth considering

neon blaze
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which honestly felt more selfish than anything

brisk flax
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I am not particularly invested in the operator getting additional damage, there are other avenues (conditions) but I think it already has a good spread of such in its optionals

neon blaze
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Telefrag is mostly where the potential for Conditions is going, yeah

brisk flax
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the operator already has telefrag and its self-erasure can now also potentially blind people, and it has singularity grenade to move people around

smoky bluff
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Although I do think a nice clarification that the weapon does not turn bonus damage into burn would be a nice touch

surreal zenith
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that's base burn rules

brisk flax
smoky bluff
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With how its worded, people might think its the same situation as walking Armory or tokugawa

neon blaze
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I mean ironically there has to be clarification that Bonus damage can be Burn rather than the other way around

smoky bluff
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But yeah if its already codified, I don't think it'll be that much of an issue

neon blaze
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ala Walking Armory which explicitly gives the go

surreal zenith
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those specifically mention bonus damage

smoky bluff
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Maybe

brisk flax
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ranged attacks, and is only ever kinetic, explos‐
ive, or energy damage (not burn or heat)```
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like the same question arises if you give a CRB pyro the pirate template and give it deadly

smoky bluff
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Ah true

brisk flax
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"oh so my flamethrower now deals +1d6 burn on crits?" nope

smoky bluff
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I probably should've thought of that

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Maybe I don't crit as much with a deadly pyro that I never really thought of that

neon blaze
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It does 1d6 ... kinetic, now

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don't think about it

smoky bluff
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Or energy

neon blaze
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nope, kinetic

smoky bluff
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Can they change the damage type?

neon blaze
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Bonus damage defaults to Kinetic if there is no (valid) type

smoky bluff
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Ah, is that so

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You would think for the operator, it would be energy though since the gun shoots energy

neon blaze
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oh I was talking about the Pyro

smoky bluff
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Ah yeah i don't think about it

surreal zenith
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the operator would be energy yes

bold crystal
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this is kind of a silly question because everyone would run it as energy

surreal zenith
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The way i think of it is

smoky bluff
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Yeah the weapon does say energy and not something just like 3 burn with nothing else

surreal zenith
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Establish bonus damage first (it's energy) and then flip the base damage to burn

smoky bluff
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Yeah i can see it working that way

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Man I should try this when I got the free time

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The theoretical operator now feels like a CRB assault on crack and sacrificed all its hp and resistance to become what it might be if playtest goes well

brisk flax
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I want to be clear this is a pretty speculative change and not guaranteed to go in, especially as it's pretty late in the cycle

smoky bluff
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Yeah

vale crescent
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On the topic of bonus damage becomes kinetic, I tend to make it energy purely because it doesnt effect any of my players because none of them have resistance to specific damage types and at that point its purely flavour

smoky bluff
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I should convince one of your players to play a lycan

vale crescent
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Go ahead, try

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Or black witch

carmine idol
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Quick question @smoky bluff - do your maps have a lot of cover for Ops to work with? The thought popped up when I saw your recent map in the Battle map hub and got the impression that it had almost no cover

sharp mirage
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Ran an LL0 game with the NPCs

Rainmaker: Skyhammer does not say it requires to be in free spaces, so you can just place it over PCs

NPCs 2-4 says both Check and Save

forcing them to
pass a Hull check or become Jammed until the end of their next
turn. On a success, they become Impaired instead. If the NPC was
already Impaired, they automatically fail this save.
Which is kind of confusing

Barricade: Spike Barrier could be visible from the get go? Players thought it was kind of a gotcha, but thats also because I kept encouraging them to scan by not giving them a whole lot of information

Demolisher: On page 44 in the Demolisher's Hullcracker effect text Immobilized is missing its second i

The Demolisher chooses a character within Range 2; they must pass a Hull save or be Immobilzed and Shredded until the end of their next turn.

Otherwise they're pretty good! New assault feels good, and though there wasn't much cover it wasn't terrifyingly effective

New Grunts are also really good, and they didn't do much because my players were good about cleaning them up when I deployed them, but I still like them a lot

https://docs.google.com/document/d/16yALVYoqQ_LEOMu750nBrS1wezJ6QZ0Y-KjD-eJZIlo/edit?usp=sharing Here are all my NPCs

Google Docs
Grudge Match Scenes

Initial Deployment Characters Kraken Hive Generals: Adjacent to the yellowjackets, rotating captain system (Captain wears the Captain’s hat and coat) O’Harris: Tall, Broad, Dark red hair, dark skin, dark red lipstick, white and red tracksuit, music lover, pilots Artillery, she/her Danny Boy: ...

bold crystal
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on skyhammer

sharp mirage
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Good to know

brisk flax
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Yes, skyhammer salvo works that way on purpose

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Fundamentally you can place it on top of people and get a time delayed lock on, which then encourages them to move out of the zone

wheat mortar
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rebaked Sentinel's Eyes of Midnight is intended to work on involuntary movement?

"The Sentinel becomes Slowed, but can take the Overwatch reaction 1/turn instead of 1/round.
Additionally, they may attack with Overwatch using the Combat Shotgun when hostile characters
enter, leave, or exit spaces within their Threat no matter whether they started their movement there.
Once activated, this effect lasts until it is deactivated as a quick action."

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if the involuntary movement forces the hostile character to "enter" spaces within the Sentinel's threat

brittle cipher
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Involuntary movement does not trigger reactions (barring the one exception that explicitly says that it does)

wheat mortar
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im going with "I: Specific rules override general statements and rules" here in the sense that the system specifically says when a hostile character enters the space

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i would agree that the core Sentinel would not be able to overwatch but the wording of the system was changed in the rebake

brittle cipher
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your specific and general are inverted. "invol does not trigger" is overriding "entered a space" because the method of entry does not trigger reactions

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vanguard 3 is worded the exact same way and does not allow players to get free overwatches off of (non puppet systems) involuntary movement

wheat mortar
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alright i see what you are saying, i'm still curious if Kai intended the Sentinel to be able to overwatch on involuntary movement
thank you

bold crystal
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involuntary movement does not trigger reactions unless either the movement or the reaction says so.

brisk flax
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Does involuntary movement work on vanguard 3 y/n

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The answer is no

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Puppet systems gets used for that because it specifically says it still procs reactions

wheat mortar
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yea this use case was grapple cable

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ok, thank you.

was there a reason for having eyes of midnight only work on the combat shotgun and not the retractable sword?

brisk flax
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Make a veteran sentinel and take Eye of the Storm

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Broadly, something I've done with the rebake is work to tie abilities more closely to specific weapons or kit rather than leaving it open-ended, I know some people have said they don't like this but I'm not super invested in the bombard, say, getting cluster munitions procs off of a ravager cannon

wheat mortar
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because vanguard 3 is CQB ok that makes sense

sharp mirage
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Or an archer getting Ravager turret on all of its reactions shudders

brisk flax
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Eye of Midnight being a thing that works with the shotgun only by default isn't strictly necessary, NPCs aren't built on PC logic needing talents et al, but it means Eye of Midnight has clearer interactions with things like soft cover or things that specifically interact with ranged attacks

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Instead of the GM going "well actually,"

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It presents a clear logic for players to work off of

wheat mortar
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I did not see the combat shotgun specification and used the sword + impaler on eyes of midnight overwatch reaction but also made a mistake on the involuntary movement as the "enters the space" seemed pretty clear to me at the time but post-session discussion the player challenged the ruling

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it was 4 damage and the impaler failed so it wasn't super impactful but still i appreciate the clarification and explanation from thatone and joan

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and the additional info in the intent of the sentinel from you

brisk flax
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The big thing eye of midnight and vanguard 3 do is change it so the user can proc overwatch when someone enters threat rather than leaving it

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Normally overwatch is "once you're within threat, you can't leave without triggering it"

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Eye of midnight and vanguard 3 turn it into a thing that can trigger if someone moves into the threat zone

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That's already a real huge deal, so it doesn't influence the proccingness of involuntary movement, that still applies as normal

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@rose hamlet hey off the subject and onto an earlier one, didn't you or someone else experiment with an operator that did burn?

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I know you did line attacks as a default

rose hamlet
smoky bluff
trail pivot
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Heavy Rifle, Limited 3, +2/4/6, +1 Accuracy
20 Range 4/5/6 Energy
The Operator can spend up to 2 additional charges when it attacks with this weapon to deal +4/5/6 damage for each charge spent, but it takes 2 Heat for each charge spent in total on the attack after the attack resolves.``````Temperamental Engine
Trait
When the Operator Stabilizes, it restores up to 2 charges to any Limited trait, system, or weapon, in any combination (this cannot cause the trait, weapon, or system to exceed its Limited value.). When the Operator Overheats, it becomes Stunned until the start of its turn; then, it clears all Heat and Exposed.``````Burnout - Optional Trait
Trait
When the Operator spends multiple charges to attack with the Raptor Plasma Rifle, the Operator can choose to make all damage from the attack become Burn, but the Operator takes 3 Heat per charge spent instead of 2 when it does.``` heat cap remains 8
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burnout being the optional, and Temperamental Engine being base kit

twin reef
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Yeah, that feels like an interesting different class that isn't an Operator.

trail pivot
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hmm?

blissful lion
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That's cool! Did you find that the limited charges were annoying to keep track of going up and down? I was brainstorming a grenadier class that refreshes their grenades and mines on stabilise/reloading but thought it might be unnecessary overhead.

trail pivot
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not particularly but we also just label them on the r20 and be default the Operator alternative only has the plasma rifle and Step as limited abilities, and Step is only Limited 1

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so in practice its just for the rifle or if they felt like tuning up step (which is itself an optional, for this version of the operator)

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that + overall still being simple and basically the same "high damage mobile asswipe" as before means its not too big a change beyond "oh you have to care about your attacks now" since missing is a bit more feasible, and the fact that its generally less punishing against most player frames (rip manticore, drake, and ghengis)

brisk flax
trail pivot
# brisk flax Did you have anybody play with this and give feedback? If so, I'd love to hear h...

as far as Im aware, im the only one to have used it, for a total of about 5 different combats (though i have at least one more upcoming in the next week or two featuring the optional. in an ongoing campaign. I can mostly offer Summarized trends and tactical considerations made from my side as the GM + context, but my campaign groups (3 different groups) have experienced them in a number of contexts at T2

It had the above as a veteran, and we opted to keep it simple with them just having Deadly and limitless as a kind of even-ground between potential for abuse via limitless useage and reigning it it by not having it an ultra or something. of note is that the Operators All carried Step as an optional, which operates similarly to the CRB version, but is made to be a protocol with Limited 1 and 2 heat self, so they'd have to stabilize before using Step again, assuming they chose to restore the charge

Tier 2
I ultimately found that the operator Burn option was mostly saved for "Good" shots against otherwise Hard-to-damage players in that sense. I did land a notable number of Burnout powered shots against the players, but avoided firing into hard cover or other potent defensive tech like the Noah with it, as the minimum 6 heat gained from doing so, even for a potential of 10-15 burn at t2 (14 to 19 with Deadly) proved prohibitively costly thanks to temperamental engine.

there were ultimately times were I opted to Bite the Bullet on the operator and take the burnout which has led to 3 cases of the operator overheating/stressing because of it, which on top of the Alternative Stress results, put them in extremely vulnerable positions. I did so in the cases where there was a reasonable chance the players would be too busy to bother going after the operator, particularly because the operator would have been unable to shoot next turn unless it risked an overcharge, which presents another overheating risk unless i opted to play safe.

as far as i was aware, the High Burn on hit did have players taking action to mitigate the risk of failed burn checks. but even in the worst cases, they simply resorted to stabilizing, as even the best case secnario of them taking 19 burn on hit was still something they could probably take without structuring if they were healthy. There was a case where I opted not to use the burnout at all because the combat was simply too risky for the operator to consider overheating, and in general, i found myself only using it when the rest of the NPC opfor was in the middle of the players and healthy enough to waste their time and potentially buy the operators time if they did overheat.

brisk flax
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tbh I'm not hearing a lot of "the burn was OP" out of that

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so

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FOR NOW, if people want to give the "on crit the plasma rifle does burn instead of energy damage" thing a try, do so and I will take feedback on it

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run it as written: I think having lancasters and genghises be immune to operator crits is very funny, so I am not inclined to change it

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realtalk, Immunity in a game like lancer is in a weird space because do you, as the GM, use a pyro to shoot the lancaster except by proximity? Do you shoot the Genghis with the Hive? No you don't because that's a waste of time

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so on the one hand those mechs are "burn immune" but in practical terms a lot of the time this means "guys who do burn will not shoot them, they'll just shoot the other PCs"

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if the GM deliberately shoots a genghis with a hive or whatever, then the player will probably feel that the GM is sandbagging or doing some weird "NPC mindspace" thing

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however, what if the burn was randomly applied?

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suddenly, the GM might be like "no you know what, fuck that genghis over there, I'm gonna shoot them with this energy damage weapon" but by a twist of fate, it ends up dealing burn instead, and the genghis now feels that their burn immunity:
A). was procced "legitimately", and
B). they get to feel like the coolest motherfucker in the room

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so actually, having it work this way owns and I am going to use this to further inflate my ego

bold crystal
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that is a good reason to keep it like that really.

brisk flax
# sharp mirage Ran an LL0 game with the NPCs Rainmaker: Skyhammer does not say it requires to ...

also now that I'm at my desk I want to loop back to a point made earlier when I wasn't up for longer-form posting, which is re: the spike barrier. I am, admittedly, a big advocate of telegraphing things in tactics games, I made a big post about it earlier. With that said, even though it doesn't really give a structural "Hey You Need To Tell People This Thing" flag, spike barrier does say the following as the very first line in its entry:
The cube printed by Mobile Printer is covered in piercing spikes

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and while "flavor is free" etc etc, I do feel that this suggests pretty openly that the cube being some sort of different from the usual cube is a thing that isn't really being obscured

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the problem with deathcounter, for example, is it never really said "the bastion is covered with a shield," it simply has the Shield Tag and that's the end of it, I think "the cube is covered in piercing spikes" does imply a degree of visibility

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how the spikes WORK is a mystery, sure

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gotta stick your hand on the stove and all that

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I suppose there's a "this language is too naturalistic" argument to be made, but the other hand is "it literally says the cube is covered in spikes"

trail pivot
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mhmm

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and yeah the burn was fine in practice as long as the Operator can't do it consistently for free

blissful lion
# brisk flax if the GM deliberately shoots a genghis with a hive or whatever, then the player...

Yeah, sometimes it feels like something you’re obligated to do at some points - deliberately playing to the PC’s strengths and shooting bows at people who catch arrows and all that.

I get it for pyro at least, they have an area attack, the immune PC might try and get in their way or something, but hive can pretty much shoot anyone in range 10. Maybe I’d run them shooting the immune character once and never again, but it still seems unsatisfying.

trail pivot
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I think the Immunity traits would see a fair bit more use if stage/field hazards were more commonly expected in a given game, or if they expanded to include a lot of common environmental hazards in general

brisk flax
surreal zenith
brisk flax
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and I do think that stuff like that is good to use in general, I've tended to try and make sure every other combat or so throughout solstice rain and winter scar have explosive barrels, some stuff in the environment that does damage, hazards, etc

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it does remain true that most of the damage PCs take will probably be NPC-oriented, and immunity is a bit of a weirder spot than resistance as far as that goes

bold crystal
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this is why the manticore is the perfect creature. it may only be resistance. but resistance means it comes up!

brisk flax
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I will again mention that Fabula Ultima gets around the "someone drank a Fire Resistance Potion, Now What?" issue by having NPCs act according to a sort of "AI" and thus the GM isn't having to make deliberate targeting choices

twin reef
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Yeah, Orchis has one of the best-feeling immunity traits in the game. Every time an Archer misses it, it gets to go "neener neener!"

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And the archers are still going to shoot it just in case it hits.

brisk flax
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operator's getting halved either way

bold crystal
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it sure doesn't!

brisk flax
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the GM can't say for sure "this will do nothing"

vale crescent
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For the sake of Immunities, I am personally under the belief they are useful not because of what they directly stop but what they're capable of stopping. Its a similar thing of being a "tank" in any other rpg by pumping health and armour then doing nothing to get your enemies to attack you. Does the GM attack them out of pity or tell them to get a taunt ability.

Insulated is different however as it isn't a tank ability but it follows a similar vibe. If I had someone immune to insulated and walked onto a map with a pyro and a hive. Insulated is immediately useful because it gives a the player knowledge that these NPCs, 2/3rds of their kit dont work. Insulated is still definitely most useful vs aoe/area Denial tools as the Lancaster or ghengis can just run through razor swarms or firebreak shields. They can also stand near an ally without feeling like they're just getting into threat of cone in front of the pyro. It allows them to act in ways that would be more reckless and punishing as they won't be punished, it isn't useless because all of the hives didn't sequentially blast the ghengis with 12 razor swarms.

Its a similar way how mines in this game work on the player side, if you place a mine somewhere, it can still have use if no enemies walk into it because they spend ages walking around.

This game is full of things which NPCs can do which can be classed as "suboptimal" to make players feel good when said things can still be effective by what they stop in the first place, like NPCs walking into mines, shooting high evasion target with low hit chance, shooting heavily armoured target with chip damage, shooting superior by design mech with a hornet, shooting a ghengis with a flamethrower

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And I'm not a fan of the on crit bonus not being optional on the raptor as critical hits as being random chance are however either as good as the original attack or better

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Having an uncontrollable chance of something being better actually just being worse just doesnt feel right. Accuracy shouldn't always be better, gaining accuracy when shooting a ghengis or Lancaster shouldn't be a downside?

#

And gaining crit immunity (say with an aegis nearby) shouldn't also be a downside when fighting an operator

vale crescent
smoky bluff
#

Note, does harrier maniple ends on the hive's turn or the target's turn

rose hamlet
tardy troutBOT
#
Strike Fund

✅ Standard Ban List 24.12
✅ unchanged 6 updates
✅ Standard Ban List 23.08
🔒 Standard Ban List 23.03
🔒 unchanged 19 updates
🔒 NAPD MWL 1.0

rose hamlet
#

…. Okay that was an accident

rose hamlet
#

(Low key, I ran into a similar issue, where I wanted the Operator’s standard movement to optionally be a teleport instead of always, but this was admittedly due to some house rules I created for lifting and dragging)

#

(That’s a minor enough thing that I’d patch it in myself for my own tables)

smoky bluff
#

Ran a holdout mission with the prototype Operator

Party Composition LL4
Drake 3 Structure 3 Stress
Hecatoncheires 3 Structure 4 Stress
Swallowtail 2 Structure 4 Stress
Vicroy Meltdown and got a 1 on the 1d6 meltdown die to overcharge and throw the Hecatoncheries

Enemy Composition
Operator (KIA)
Mirage (Escaped)
Hive (KIA)
Elite Pyro (KIA)
Veteran Avenger [also Rebake] (KIA)

Reinforcements
Assassin (KIA)
Archer (KIA)

Change made to the Operator. Their crits turns damage into burn
With the Mirage Dataveiling the Operator, I had the time of the Operator's Life to just sit around the end of the objective trying to crit fish for the burn damage. However, in thanks due to the Hecatoncheires and Drake with Portable Bunker, that Opportunty only came to be on the Vicroy. Who got dirty 20 critted for 7 burn + 3 Burn from Hunter-Killer Nexus alongside being impaired for a mutitude of reasons, one being Drone Barrage. He made the burn check. With a 16 and maximum difficulty roll. Passing at a 10. There were no other situations where the crit took place.

Operator died doing what it loved, overheating its reactor to do epic overload shots on the crowd dealing damage no matter who was in it and dying to the Vicroy coming up to blow it up with the Hammer-URL

Veteran Avenger with lighting reflexes, its pretty decent. Served quite well as the secondary defender while the Pyro drew most of the attention. Tried to deal with the Drake with its judgement shotgun and slug pistol, but did only scraps thanks to the aegis shield generator. Never got an erupterer shells failed save

Mirage, it combos off very well with the operator, but it does sort of make the challenge of keeping the operator alive less challenging and less interactive thanks to dataveil, the operator slowly chipped away at the players. It got some good hacks and overheated the drake but when i accidentally put it out of position at the end of the round, I dropped dataveil on the operator to let the mirage hide and make its escape. The Operator got at least one last Hurrah with Overload shot.

image.png
#

Very burn heavy composition and players noticed it

#

hecathoncheries and swallowtail were the only ones to suffer from burn checks and those fire come from the pyro and hive respectively

#

tbh though Operator's On Critical hit isn't exactly something that big of a problem to deal with, compared to the next best comparison, the Scourer, it comes off somewhat randomly and inconsistently. Unlike Scourer's Focus Down which deals approximately -2 less burn than the tier 1 Operator, although that difference quickly disappears the higher tiers you go. Having a +1/2/3 Attack bonus instead of the Sniper +2/4/6 also means that critting is still more likely at higher tiers but probably not to the same extent unless you prepare strategies to allow the Operator to always choose strike and fade's accuracy.

#

like mirage dataveiling or Bastion friendly interdiction

brisk flax
#

so a couple things:

  1. "critical hits are random and inconsistent unless you use the thing that gives you more accuracy" sounds, tbh, like things working as intended from a perspective of "incentivizing the operator to do the thing that gives them more accuracy"
    2). I have to admit, I'm not sure how fussed I am at the burn effect being mandatory when all of a whopping 2 PC mechs (three if you count both Genghis frames) have burn immunity, I'm not really sure how pressing a matter it is that I make this optional solely to keep those two mechs from occasionally winning the lottery
#

if more stuff was burn immune I might think differently, but as it stands this feels like feelsbadproofing a thing I'm not sure stands out as a huge issue

#

if you really think that mandatory burn on crit sucks bad beyond the abstract premise, this seems like the sort of thing playtesting is for

#

as to point the first, I don't think the operator's goal should be to ALWAYS choose one element of strike and fade over the other tbh

#

"I want the operator to always choose accuracy" no I don't, if you build a comp to do that that's fine I guess, but also not The Plan, that's YOU deciding to do that

#

same with the other way

#

"does this have incentive to choose either aspect?" if the answer is yes then great, mission accomplished

#

like the flipside of the feelsbad argument is "a clause was added such that at any time your niche immunity trait might kick in and give you an awesome moment to brag about, the GM simply chooses not to do it and you take damage as normal"

#

so I guess the question is, whose feelbad takes priority here?

vale crescent
#

Crits are usually meant to be better than a regular hit, if you crit a lancaster it is worse than a regular hit because it's doing nothing instead of reliable. Also, the GM isn't ignoring it, by downgrading the damage to regular rather than the crit burn you're denying the operator the ability to be extra potent on crit

brisk flax
#

okay but my questions are:
1). does this matter?
2). has this come up in testing?

#

because tbh, I'm not super invested in the theoretical on this

vale crescent
#

On point 1, yeah it is a horrible hill for me to be dying on lmao

brisk flax
#

like I appreciate the perspective, genuinely

#

is it kind of counterintuitive for the crit to be worse? yeah I guess so, but it's also a pretty niche case

#

in terms of potential outcomes, it strikes me as not being massively disruptive if it were to happen in a "this derails the encounter" sense

smoky bluff
#

i mean, something along the line of a spec ops honus damage on crit but its burn instead of energy might be too much to ask but it does sort of solve both issues

vale crescent
#

I think the reason why I'm still standing by it is because it is fixed via adding a single "may" cause

brisk flax
#

I mean the issue isn't that I don't know how to fix it, the issue is that I am unconvinced that I want to

vale crescent
#

Totally valid tbh, I'll salute in silence for the 0.2% of players who play as a lancaster or ghengis who get crit by an operator

#

If this change even does go through

brisk flax
#

the thing is that I do not view every "oh that's kinda weird" outcome like this as a flaw in need of fixing, I'm aware of what it entails, but as I outlined earlier I think that there's an argument in its favor rather than it strictly being a thing that is just actively bad like "this ability doesn't work" or "this sword is too easy to make do double damage"

#

I AM willing to be proven wrong but it's also, like, idk how you would really test this outside of some "all operator battles versus genghis/lancaster comps" thing

bold crystal
#

to be frank, I think the GM can shoulder a little bit of feelsbad moments like 'oh shit the operator crit and did absolutely nothing to the genghis' more than players can shoulder the reverse

brisk flax
#

this is also, by the way, an example of a dynamic that can significantly change based on which side of the screen it's happening on

#

if you made a PC mech weapon that worked this way, I would 100% say "make it optional because they might fight a Pyro or something"

bold crystal
#

the GM is here to play a whole bunch of NPCs who exist to eat shit and die, is the thing.

brisk flax
#

yeah essentially the OPFOR's role in life is to suffer

#

the reason I'm sort of more in the camp of "nah let it play out" in this instance is because I think that "this one time an operator thought it had me dead to rights but it shot me TOO good and I walked out unscathed" is actually a positive outcome in terms of generating experiences at the table

#

whereas a player putting their all into one final attack or having to clutch a sitrep only to get no-sold by a pyro is going to lead to the opposite outcome

vale crescent
#

I was thinking "what about an elite operator vs insulated mech" or an ultra but then that just made be think "What if an elite or ultra pyro vs insulated mech" happened and that's worse lmao

I do want to say I will keep saying or echoing the reasons I think it should be but it doesn't matter enough and it's mostly out of principle of two opinions I hold which is: Crits should always be as good as or better than regular hits and that immunities are powerful not because of what they directly stop but what they prevent happening in the first place. Just because a measure is only half as effective doesn't mean that isn't effective. These ARE things that I stand by but like... If this change goes through I'm not going to hell screaming and putting a 0/5 star review on the itch page once it comes out lol. Because I agree with the reasons you said above about the "It's rare" and "It hasn't been tested"

#

At this point I'm just playing devils advocate

bold crystal
#

also like, that your players have a lanny or genghis isn't going to be a surprise to you in the way that like, a steel jaw veteran is to them, etc

vale crescent
#

"I don't really are enough"
Writes multiple paragraphs about how little I care

bold crystal
#

the GM always has more info than the players so I kinda assume 'if you field a souped up operator vs insulated mechs' that's kinda. on the GM

vale crescent
#

I think that just falls under how you handle encounter design, should an encounter be made assuming any party can face it (such as from a modules) or your specific party faces it (Not fielding an ultra pyro against a ghengis party)

smoky bluff
#

I mean scourers against insulated mechs happen every now and then

#

They just do it more consistently than operators

#

And most npcs don't even benefit that much on crits anyways

vale crescent
#

Scourers can still be effective VS insulated mechs, they still do energy damage they just don't have any reason to focus down unless they have the shredding optional

smoky bluff
#

Same would probably happen for the operator, less incentive for strike, more playing around getting the fade

#

In a 10%/15%/20% chance you score a crit. You might play the operator more like an scourer

smoky bluff
vale crescent
vale crescent
#

I think it's incredibly funny and as much as I want to do the maths for it, I think there's a certain point where if your evasion is high enough on a Lancaster or Ghengis and at a certain tier, the operators average damage decreases by gaining accuracy or increases by gaining difficulty. I would like to know if this is correct but I'm wasting too much time figuring it out when I'm meant to be incredibly busy RN. But the concept of that is making me want to go back on everything I've said because it's funny and for the bit

brisk flax
#

also, the operator literally does have a way to modulate their own accuracy

#

it's called "use strike and fade for defense"

indigo oasis
trail pivot
#

yeah i dont think the burn on crit thing is bad tbh i've had players randomly no-sell things before and its fine

#

if the gm is that paranoid they can just give them a second gun for genghis' and lancasters anyway

#

npc's sometimes randomly have a terrible match up against 1 or 2 specific mechs and that's fine actually

#

and the crit on burn thing isn't even a terrible match up

fathom root
# trail pivot if the gm is that paranoid they can just give them a second gun for genghis' and...

reminds me of when i did a rebake pyro with vet and spec op for a campaign and it had to face off against a lanny

what it did was essentially get in between of the lanny and an ally it's healing, overcharge to flamethrower the ally and pile up heat, then immediately dump heat onto the lanny with stabilise. and since it was spec ops, i did it twice and got an easy stress for the other NPCs to take advantage of.

there are ways to take care of immune targets

crude trail
# neon blaze nope, kinetic

that not-so-edge case is something i can't help but houserule around - nearly every time it comes up, energy feels like the actual sensible default

gilded pollen
#

Great job with this Rebake, I'm not even running a Lancer game at the moment and you still got me making OpFors

vale crescent
crude trail
#

yeah those two ought to stay kinetic

heavy pebble
vale crescent
#

Yes it does, there are 3 states of an attack, miss, hit and crit. Miss happens if the roll is less than evasion, crit happens if it is equal to or higher than 20 and a hit happens less than 20 and higher than or equal to evasion.

The average damage of an attack is
Reliable * Miss change + Damage * Hit chance + (Damage + crit bonuses) * crit chance

At T1, the average damage increases with accuracy (as expected) as I assume the miss - > hit is a bigger effect than hit -> crit

heavy pebble
#

Each +1 to hit reduces the chance to miss by 5% and increases the chance to crit by 5%. The chance for a normal hit is unaffected.

crude trail
#

that doesn't sound quite right

#

hmm, perhaps it makes sense

heavy pebble
#

Consider an attack at +2 against evasion 10:

  • 1-7: miss = 35%
  • 8-17: hit = 50%
  • 18-20: crit = 15%
    Now consider an attack at +3, still against evasion 10:
  • 1-6: miss = 30%
  • 7-16: hit = 50%
  • 17-20: crit = 20%
bold crystal
#

I don't think that holds up at higher evasion..?

vale crescent
#

yeah

#

Changing evasion changes hit chance but doesn't increase crit chance

heavy pebble
#

We're not talking about changing evasion, though

vale crescent
#

And accuracy/difficulty

heavy pebble
#

If the attack modifier is negative, the math does change.

#

If you can't crit at all

crude trail
#

as long as the window from evasion (inclusive) to 20 (exclusive) remains within the possible roll outcomes, consistent flat bonuses shouldn't affect the chance of a normal hit

accuracy does mess with the probabilities around that window, and stacking accuracy biases it upwards quite a bit, so odd things might be possible there, which needs more analysis

#

if evasion is low, in particular, excessive accuracy might be troublesome, as the evasion starts to touch the lowest likely rolls

#

and then even solid hits might get traded for a whiffing crit [not at the same roll values, of course, just in the total probability space]
[and if evasion is low, that might already be a painful time regardless, because the hit window is so large to begin with]

heavy pebble
#

Basically, as long as it is possible to miss and possible to crit.

smoky bluff
#

I mean if a Lancaster or Genghis tried to stack Evasion to prevent getting shot by the operator at higher tiers, that just means the operator isn't really going to shoot them just like how the Hive or Pyro wouldn't shoot them either

#

Its not just going to be be the Lancaster or genghis in the sitrep, there would be more than just those 2 mechs to try to set on fire

#

Operator still has a ton of optionals to mess with them even if the "to crit" chance increases

#

Telefrag to Jam and shred them and singularity grenade to mess with their positioning

sharp mirage
#

I feel like its drifting too far away from CRB? "Burn on crit" feels like much more of a template or homebrew thing, and not something that would be represented in a CRB NPC, which generally keeps their weapons pretty simple to reduce overhead

brisk flax
bold crystal
#

it's not that complex.

brisk flax
#

CRB NPCs right now have crit effects

#

Both baseline and optional

surreal zenith
#

also this is a homebrew thing

brisk flax
#

Also I'm gonna be real honest, drifting away from the CRB operator is sort of the point with that one

sharp mirage
#

Ok

brisk flax
#

This isn't official first party work

#

The premise has been put to me that the rebake operator right now wants to find more of a reason to offensively strike and fade than simply better to-hit odds, and tbh there aren't a lot of effects that do that beyond rewarding some sort of critical hit

#

This is also a thing I did with the Cataphract to justify keeping it's weird to-hit scaling

#

The CRB version of "reward NPCs for critting" is "deal +1d6 bonus damage" and tbh I'm not really a fan of that one, either as a CRB thing outside of like a template, and I don't really want to go that route with the rebake operator because I don't think that adding that would be healthy even if it's a thing with CRB precedent

#

The other option is "crit debuffs" ala blinding shells, but I'm not really interested in giving something like that to the operator because I think that for a non controller slanted artillery unit it already has several strong control effects in its optionals

#

"turn damage into burn" is akin to "extra damage" but in a much more regulated way, baseline the effect is around an extra 1.5 damage by virtue of being armor piercing rather than +3.5 average, and against unarmored targets it doesn't really gain much. The chance for successive burn proccing is then a thing that has a lot of built in ways to mitigate or deal with it as it operates on a time delay

#

So functionally "turn this damage into burn" is a benefit, but I would argue it's less immediately punchy than "the operator just does a chunk of extra damage right now"

bold crystal
#

and it's still a control effect, just one that eats up quicks(for bolster/burn clear systems) or the target's full action(via stabilize) - if they don't just roll the dice on it.

smoky bluff
#

It most definitely is, its a game of chance on another game of chances (on crit effect and burn check) if you don't account for you you take 14/18/22 burn damage

surreal zenith
brisk flax
#

This is why I'm experimenting with it, because it's an effect that benefits from the additional accuracy but not in a way that really uptunes the operator's immediate output in a damage-per-instance sense

brisk flax
bold crystal
#

and if you don't deal with the operator rather than trying to clear the burn, it might shoot again!

brisk flax
#

Burn is very psychologically impactful

#

People get very freaked out by it

smoky bluff
#

Its just that when 2 of the many mechs in the game get hit by it, it will do nothing, which is cool for them, players deserve to be cool

brisk flax
#

So basically that's why I decided to run with that, it fits the bill of "make operator crits more threatening" but in a way I feel is more bounded than just adding more damage or giving it an arbitrary control type effect

#

Also: designwise a lot of NPC weapons are actually pretty complex, it's just that the rules are broken up between weapon and trait

#

Bombard and Cluster Munitions, Breacher and Break Armor, etc

sharp mirage
#

Instead of on crit debuff a player it could be on crit buff the operator? Like a 2 space teleport or something

smoky bluff
#

I do realise that crit on exposed targets do mean you don't get extra damage for the operator lol, less reason to use strike for every situation

#

That is also a possible route to take

#

But again why this feature is still playtesting

brisk flax
#

Exposed not working with burn is kind of understandable but also kind of a hassle

#

idk how strongly I feel about it yet and would like to get some more testing on it

brisk flax
#

Notably all of the rebake operator's additional teleports tricks have costs to their use

#

Singularity Grenade is limited 1, telefrag incurs self damage, fade generator is a panic button on being hit, etc

bold crystal
#

it could be something like 'on crit the reliable is converted to burn' which isn't nearly as spicy but solves a lot of complaints

brisk flax
#

I want the GM playing operators to have to bring their A game, tbh

bold crystal
sharp mirage
#

Theyre special NPCs and get to do a lot of stuff other NPCs dont

brisk flax
#

Not in a "I'm making this hard on purpose" sense but the intent is that it needs to be handled thoughtfully

#

Someone earlier mentioned the rebake operator feels like an "NPC style PC mech" and I think that's exactly what I want out of it in terms of the vibe

brittle cipher
smoky bluff
#

I think they mean the operator deals burn damage equivalent to the reliable damage on crit

bold crystal
#

it was not particularly hard wording.

smoky bluff
#

I do wonder if the crit could be something to help self-sustain it in the fight, like overshield or something

bold crystal
#

7/9/11 energy > 3/4/5 burn 4/5/6 energy

brittle cipher
#

...in my defense I'm very tired lol

smoky bluff
#

Or clear 2 heat

brisk flax
#

I think I'm going to stick with what I've got going for now tbh

smoky bluff
#

Fair enough

bold crystal
#

sustain effects are kind of dicey.

brisk flax
#

There are as many ways as I could take a thing as there are stars in the sky but largely I'm interested in "how does this one work"

smoky bluff
#

It probably runs into the same problem as to how the operator wouldn't need to rely more on its team if it did

brisk flax
#

Yeah and that's also an element of it, self sustain stuff fits a tank better or a more specific purpose built sort of NPC

#

Like the berserker has baseline perma resist all with a shutdown switch to make it so if you just facesmash it you will have a worse time

#

That's part and parcel of "how the berserker is meant to be"

#

The operator is meant to be a less resilient skirmisher that leans on teleportation and smart play to stay ahead of things

#

"do spicy damage" fits that role as part of its own package better than sustain or additional control type effects

brisk flax
bold crystal
#

that's an incredibly deliberately stupid play but I can see it in my mind and I love it.

brisk flax
#

I am extremely susceptible to things that encourage a certain amount of stupid ideas

brittle cipher
#

the heretofore unseen defensive self-expose

neon blaze
#

enabling stupid ideas is how we ended up with fascam in the state its in so yeah, it works

#

stupid plays make moments in games

#

and thats unironically important

#

i think a lot about how my most memorable fight for my players so far wasn't the giant doom copter, or the coked up MBT

it was the not ornstein & smough fight where one of the NPCs super charged upon their friend being killed

then their friend stood back up and stated slapping people because feign death

sharp mirage
#

Not to ruin a good time but,

I think you risk taking more damage either way? Because Toku has 1 armor

No expose: 6 energy damage
Expose (No crit) 11 energy damage
Expose (Crit) 7 burn damage

However, if your GM lets you self prone and youre already exposed then it makes sense

smoky bluff
#

Well tbh you'll be dead if you do

blissful lion
#

Pull a tokugawa and deal bonus burn damage/accuracy for crits when the Operator is in the danger zone FemmeHeckYeah

indigo oasis
indigo oasis
#

Plus it adds a niche deliberate counterplay which is fun

indigo oasis
brisk flax
flint hollow
#

👀

brisk flax
#

The Spite is a bit of a weird one because it largely seems to be a vehicle for Imprison and then everything else in its kit is just sorta, idk, there

#

a couple of things then modify or play off imprison but it feels...not incoherent exactly, like I understand why crush targeting is there, but it still feels a bit amorphous

#

also it doesn't really need two self-immobilizes

rose hamlet
# brisk flax hey I'm bored

Ok nice this slaps

I see you chose to keep the 20 sensors after all? Regardless I like the new kit. Feels nice and coherent. Is it intended that Edict apply immediately to the Imprisoned character, or does Imprison need to stick around for 1 round for the Protocol to activate? I’m assuming “immediately” but wanted to double check

#

Altogether this looks hella coherent though

brisk flax
#

like, closer range but also slow isn't really a winning combo

#

the demolisher is a "stay the fuck out" unit

rose hamlet
#

Yeah not on an off-controller like this

vale crescent
brisk flax
#

but the spite is more of a goliath-style target-forcing issue

brisk flax
#

Imprison is a Full Tech and Edict is a protocol, so you can't "preemptively Edict" and THEN use Imprison

rose hamlet
#

Sounds like no!

brisk flax
#

basically how it works is:
1). the Spite infects someone with Imprison
2). as a protocol, the Spite can use Edict to tell the infected guy "hey, do this thing or take damage" and it lasts until the end of the infected character's next turn

vale crescent
#

I like this

brisk flax
#

Edict exists as a replacement for "repeatedly using Imprison on the same guy"

rose hamlet
#

Gotcha gotcha, understood

vale crescent
#

So has the spite become more of a "hey you, yeah you in particular. Fuck you!"

brisk flax
vale crescent
#

Yeah enthrone looks real potent

#

The fact it doesnt expire

#

And it now has much more actions free since it isn't imprisoning every turn

brisk flax
#

the spite can now remotely shield people and the idea is basically that they sort of defend one another...the spite protects allies from the backline, the frontline interferes with people trying to rush the spite down

vale crescent
#

I like, i have an elite spite coming up so I'll gladly swap to this

brisk flax
#

it's still sort of "the spite as a scene hazard" but in a way that's a less "incoherent" presence where part of it is "woah 20 sensors" and the other half is "close-range adjacent stuff"

#

I left Guardian because hey, why not

#

size 2 guy also works as cover, sure, it's cheap as free

vale crescent
#

So, on edict. If the spite gets multiple activations before the target activates. Can they inflict multiple effects?

brisk flax
#

but "getting up to the spite" is now more of a "victory condition" of sorts

vale crescent
brisk flax
#

you pick one

vale crescent
#

Cool

rose hamlet
#

Just mentally going through a 3-turn cycle for Spite then:

  1. Imprison some fool, move a lil bit
  2. Edict, Move, Enthrone, Invade/Lock On
  3. Re-Edict, … Lock On, Invade? Or Enthrone shuffle?
vale crescent
#

Oooh, imprison doesnt immobilise

#

I think the only "concern" from a glance comes from action variety with spites with multiple activations. If edict doesnt stack and imprison remains best if unmoved

brisk flax
#

stat shuffling: heat cap is standardized at 6, on the lower end, and its e-def has been lowered as well, also I lowered its Systems because here's the funny part: the spite never actually makes attacks in its kit, which means the one attack it has at its disposal is Generic Invades, and I think that as a Range 20 guy it doesn't need as much to-hit there, especially from the angle of "Imprison and then repeatedly spam invades against the infected guy"

rose hamlet
#

Third turn is a bit anemic but eh it’s got a lot of passive power

smoky bluff
#

Huh, I should put that in the avenger lcp down the line

vale crescent
#

I say that but a 20 sensors and no other actions can make this thing a fucking gnarly invade + lock on machine

brisk flax
#

an Elite Spite, let's say, might want to take an early turn, then a much later turn to see "should I move Imprison or not"

vale crescent
#

I also rescind my statement after I realised it has range 20 lock ons and invades

brisk flax
#

I even note this in the OPFOR section, yes Imprison now has a cumulative heat bleed effect, but I think that you should be willing to change its target based on circumstances

vale crescent
#

Slap it on the ghengis with a weak computer and is about to proc autocooler last minute

brisk flax
#

it IS kind of a "passive player" still, admittedly, like I said it's hard to get away from the "stage hazard" feel without a bigger overhaul

smoky bluff
#

So it is impactful against those who might want to build heat and stay there but you can only have 1 imprisioned target unless you have 2 spites

rose hamlet
#

Mm, I’m not personally sold on the incentives to shuffle Imprison vs Not Shuffle, but that’s something for playtesting.

vale crescent
#

Also excoriate is very funny and much better than entrenched

brisk flax
#

"multiple spites at once" is probably a big stress test

bold crystal
vale crescent
#

"Lol nah, I can't be moved. Nice try idiot"
Vs
"Go ahead, knockback 8 me"

smoky bluff
vale crescent
#

-# (Edit, deleting a gif because its flashing too much)

brisk flax
smoky bluff
#

This is going to be fun

bold crystal
#

I think this is a much more interactive version of the spite. and especially it doesn't get to do damage without the player doing anything about it

brisk flax
#

my initial thought is that with heat caps being fairly "dynamic" in the course of a fight, along with the addition of Edict, that "who to stick with Imprison" has the potential to be a more variable decision than "just smear the Sherman"

bold crystal
#

also just a better defender

#

rather than being immobile with an adjacency-range defensive effect.

vale crescent
#

Personally, from a glance. Having a climbing heat amount with no upper limit removes the incentive to swap imprison

smoky bluff
#

thats what edict is for

rose hamlet
#

Unless I’ve misread here and Edict lasts even if Spite moves Imprison. In which case it’s just the heat stacking

vale crescent
#

If the heat stayed at a solid 1, then I think it incentivises moving the target AND makes elites/multi activation spites capable of giga brain moves such as getting 2 effective imprisons off in turn order

brisk flax
#

I think the range 20 also plays a factor in moving Imprison

#

in that it gives you more time and leeway to do so

vale crescent
smoky bluff
#

also gives you the opportunities to hack your artillery

brisk flax
vale crescent
brisk flax
#

imprison is impactful BUT you CAN also just sort of be like "okay I'll play like a normal guy for a while instead of a super asura OC looping whatever"

#

and that's not nothing, but it also doesn't really force the issue

bold crystal
#

this does also just shoot a lot of the spite's major issues as a NPC - scaling 2/3/4 armor(extremely annoying), being save-based with good systems so it can invade to make its saves better(no longer true), staggering edef so you can't take advantage of its bad heatcap(still high, not as high)

vale crescent
#

Hit the nuc cav striker with the imprison and they were complaining until it died

brisk flax
#

I think a 1 heat trickle, over average lancer combat durations, might not add up to much

vale crescent
rose hamlet
#

Mm. Invade as the spare quick action sounds better and better here for that heat trickle too

bold crystal
brisk flax
#

lmao yeah the spite statblock is weird

bold crystal
#

the spite statblock is like literally half of its issues. frankly.

brisk flax
#

"imprison + invade" is a pretty basic and obvious combo, but it's also sort of frictionless as well

bold crystal
#

also the 10/14/16 edef. really baffling scaling.

rose hamlet
#

Yeah. It just makes sense as a supporting action with its off-imprison-turn rotation

brisk flax
#

+1/2/3 is the "nominal NPC to-hit" scaling

vale crescent
#

Another totally hypothetical bad but funny case is having a super tanky multi structure spite and just deleting a guys reactor because they can't clear imprison in time. But like that ain't a problem because ultra assassins can also just delete someone hypothetically

rose hamlet
#

Yeah overall I’m jiving with this

vale crescent
#

thisfucks/10

#

Also, can edict remain in a character:

  • if the spite is dead
  • if the character no longer has imprison
rose hamlet
#

Same question with Enthrone

vale crescent
#

Also, with PPG heat recharge rules, it will no longer delete itself with its 5 heat cap and lots of recharge abilities

bold crystal
#

oh right it might be a good idea to add a 'non-adjacent' to applying imprison

vale crescent
#

"You fool, you are in my threat!"
doesnt attack because they have no weapons

bold crystal
#

I suppose it's not super meaningful yeah

brisk flax
#

wallflower itself is pretty silent on the matter of "what happens when you infect someone adjacent to the spite" though strictly RAW it works and doesn't break until they MOVE adjacent to you

brittle cipher
vale crescent
#

The power move of simply not engaging either of the defenders on the backline because the front line are dead because none of the defenders are there

brisk flax
vale crescent
#

Ah shucks, so if a target is imprisoned. Next turn they protocol to edict, the edict will be removed if imprison is shifted again. I think this plays into what valk said earlier about not incentivising moving imprison. Alas, I shall test it in 2 combats time

#

When does condemnation expire?

brisk flax
vale crescent
#

Ok, because I read edict as permenant (until imprison is gone). And a condemned character isn't imprisoned so wasn't sure of the duration

brisk flax
#

I'm not sure I see a good way for Edict to persist (ignoring condemnation for the moment) separately from the virus in a way that isn't going to feel like a weird bit of jank or a gotcha

#

"this thing works by making the virus in you worse, but it lasts even when the virus is gone" is, imo, not a very intuitive setup

vale crescent
#

Honestly fair, I saw it as "it leaves a lingering effect"

#

And yeah, it can lead to a bit of a struggle of book keeping of "you're imprisoned, but you're edicted because you were imprisoned before"

#

Rather than just dropping them on one persons's lap and saying "lmao suffer"

brisk flax
smoky bluff
#

aw man i just finished the spite lcp

brisk flax
#

well hold on because I'm about to make a fourth change

#

@vale crescent okay here we go, I've had a milisecond of genius

# 
Trait, Protocol
The Spite adjusts the parameters of Imprison's virus on the fly, causing further instability by choosing one of the following effects either as a protocol or whenever they use Imprison, which lasts until the end of the target's next turn; infected characters are aware of this effect when it is chosen.```
bold crystal
#

oh there we go that's fun

brisk flax
#

there you go, I fixed it now

#

you get a freebie whenever you use Imprison

smoky bluff
#

even if you aren't exactly making a new rebake for NRFaWF you already rebaked 2 of the npcs

brisk flax
#

there are weeks where nothing happens and there are days where I go "oh okay I've got an idea"

smoky bluff
#

ain't that real

brittle cipher
#

that's how this whole project started, if I recall

smoky bluff
#

whoops i guess i didn't proof read hard enough

#

hang on

vale crescent
smoky bluff
#

at this point, we just need to wait till you are bored enough to rebake the other 2 and we have ourselves another full rebake project

indigo oasis
#

(Genuine relief)

smoky bluff
#

thinking is hard

#

i am thinking now

#

dammit I really need something more to read

vale crescent
#

What's the veteran trait

smoky bluff
#

both avenger and spite don't really have any veteran traits so just go with a general for now i guess

manic sky
#

I very much enjoy Valk's avenger veteran suggestion

smoky bluff
#

that being?

manic sky
#

This'n

smoky bluff
#

that is very funny

#

i'll see if i can add that into the lcp

indigo oasis
# smoky bluff

Oh do you have it setup that Wallflower is a prereq to downloading that LCP?

smoky bluff
indigo oasis
#

Just checking ^^

smoky bluff
#

i just copied the code from the rebake and its requirement details but set it for wallflower

indigo oasis
#

Question about Edict: what’s the difference between the Spite changing Edict as a Protocol vs Using Imprison?

#

The way it reads to me is when the Spite uses Imprison it immediately uses Edict

#

Even if it’s its first turn in a combat and no one is imprisoned

#

Also I do like how Seize is an optional now and the change to Condemnation- multi imprison always felt weird to me

#

I know it’s low priority but I’m definitely gonna get use out of this rebake soon and will report back- it’ll be a Gauntlet (a Sitrep where a Spite normally performs the worst) so that’ll be fun and hopefully provide good input

bold crystal
#

seize being an optional seems like a good idea, especially with the prone edict

#

it's a nasty combo.

indigo oasis
#

I’m gonna have fun using the Size 1 object option on my Zheng 😈

#

Tho the most likely target is gonna be the Pegasus all things considered

smoky bluff
#

Ok i struggled to add the veteran feature

#

and so i'll just leave it as be for now

indigo oasis
# indigo oasis Question about Edict: what’s the difference between the Spite changing Edict as ...

Ok reading it again, this is how it reads to me:

  • The spite uses Imprison, immediately triggering Edict on the Imprisoned target
  • The target, on their next turn, needs to obey it or take damage
    IF the target goes twice before the Spite takes its next turn:
  • The target doesn’t have to worry about Edict on their next turn
    ELSE IF the Spite takes its turn again before the Infected character takes their turn:
  • The Spite may use a Protocol to change what the Edict is

Is that the right order of operations?

smoky bluff
# 
This effect immediately ends when the infection ends, and characters can only be affected by one such effect at a time; if they are already affected by one, the Spite chooses which one takes precedence.```
# 
The Spite adjusts the parameters of Imprison's virus on the fly, causing further instability by choosing one of the following effects either as a protocol or whenever they use Imprison, which lasts until the end of the target's next turn```
indigo oasis
#

I was just wondering why it was usable on both a protocol and upon using Imprison- the order of operations didn’t entirely make sense to me immediately but now they do

smoky bluff
#

its basically an effect that doesn't really go well with elite somewhat

brisk flax
#

think of it as akin to the Sniper getting to shift its mark when it reloads

indigo oasis
#

But if the Spite is doing the first imprison of the combat, does that benefit from edict?

brisk flax
#

Yes because it says so

#

or whenever they use Imprison

indigo oasis
#

Ok cool just checking thanks

#

Edict should basically almost always be active

brisk flax
#

The Spite can start the ball rolling right off the bat when they Imprison someone and continue to hand down edicts as a protocol if they keep the infection locked on someone, or they can continue to cycle Imprison around without a "lag" in uptime

#

it makes multi-action Spites like Elites and Ultras a bit less "stuttery" in terms of their action

indigo oasis
#

Yeah I was initially reading it as “the spite Imprisons, then come their next turn they can get the Edict ball rolling” but this makes more sense

bold crystal
#

at this point it might be clearer to just have it be like, 'start of turn select an effect, imprisoned characters have to obey the edict or take damage EoT' rather than selecting whenever you imprison? the wording made more sense when Imprison didn't also let you apply an edict on the spot

brisk flax
indigo oasis
#

Ye being able to instantly deploy edict makes it better at being a defender imo

brisk flax
indigo oasis
#

I can vouch for that I was considering asking that

bold crystal
#

that's true but I feel like that's easier to solve with (you can select a different Edict even if no characters are Imprisoned) or the like

indigo oasis
#

There is “when a character is Imprisoned or as a Protocol-“ perhaps but imo the current wording is ok

#

I can see it being confusing on read but in play becoming immediately obvious

bold crystal
indigo oasis
#

Also knowing the Edict before you start your turn is important when determining activation order

bold crystal
#

I don't think that changes if it's a persistant 'stance' the spite is in vs this?

indigo oasis
#

If you know what the Spite is asking you to do, it makes decision making faster than “well I woudl take my turn but idk if the spite’s gonna as me to go prone or not be by cover”

bold crystal
#

like, it can already swap it when it takes its turn

indigo oasis
#

Oh wait I misinterpreted

#

I thought you meant “start of the Imprisoned targets turn”

bold crystal
#

oh no yeah that would be

brisk flax
#

The Spite adjusts the parameters of Imprison's virus on the fly, causing further instability. They choose one of the following effects as a protocol, as well as automatically choosing one whenever they use Imprison, which lasts until the end of the target's next turn; infected characters are aware of this effect when it is chosen.

bold crystal
#

bad

indigo oasis
bold crystal
smoky bluff
#

Ah I should update the lcp then

indigo oasis
#

Minutes without an LCP Update: 23 0

smoky bluff
opal folio
# brisk flax hey I'm bored

new enthrone is very cool. this guy would be really oppressive when combined with a 'don't-go-there' npc like a sentinel or goliath

#

because i'm fielding a spite right now, and yeah they do suffer from the defender's curse where they're too slow to actually maintain adjacency to the squishy targets they want to protect

brisk flax
#

I think the issue is more that the spite is pulled in two directions; 20 sensors wants them to be a long range distraction/aggro draw, while enthrone is a close-in "huddle up next to me" thing, and while it's not that you couldn't say oh well he's supposed to be flexible, I don't think those two elements are super complimentary

#

like at BEST you could say "well enthrone is for when someone gets next to the spite to shed the virus" or something but ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

bold crystal
#

I will say ramping heat is a little concerning combined with 20 sensors now that it's not also immobilized the entire time.
but that also is a great reason to interact with it.

#

"or else"

opal folio
#

i always saw them as a 'tech sniper' but yeah they drastically outrange most of the units they want to protect

brisk flax
#

yeah the cumulative heat ramp is something that needs testing

#

it could scale too hard or be too easy to kite and draw out

indigo oasis
#

At the end of the day it's not gonna be published and I'm gonna be running it regardless lol. Tbh with Imprison being "one target only" and a full action I can see a use case for the Spite using Invade way more

#

Which does sort of have a heat ramping effect?

opal folio
brisk flax
indigo oasis
#

You right

#

Both spites have a reason to invade but they're very different reasons now

brisk flax
#

Imprison is a save in the published version versus deterministic in this rebake so that slants it a bit, but nothing stops the spite as published from spamming Imprison + Invade every turn

indigo oasis
#

It sounds optimal to Invade first constantly tbh to increase Imprison odds. One of them is bound to go through and if both do it's all the more devestating

smoky bluff
#

The Veteran trait could be if you are Impaired at the end of your turn you take even more heat (evil)

indigo oasis
#

I don't think the Spite needs more reasons to Invade tbh

smoky bluff
#

Luckily we haven't reached the point to add more veteran traits

indigo oasis
#

Veteran Trait could just be an extra Edict option

#

Or perhaps giving an extra bonus to swapping Imprison targets? That one doesn't sound too fun tho

#

Like "If the Spite swaps Imprison targets they take the Heat they would've taken if they ended their turn Imprisoned-" that's a mess actually

brisk flax
#

The veteran trait would need to be something that doesn't hook into new abilities, remember

indigo oasis
#

Oh right yeah

brisk flax
#

the point of the veteran template is it can be used with rebake NPCs or normal ones

indigo oasis
#

I forgor

#

Maybe something to do with extending Enthrone's range but again, doesn't seem fun

bold crystal
#

it could be the aegis-like 'slowed while enthrone instead of immobilized' but that's boring(and doesn't really work with core spite)

indigo oasis
#

It'd have to be something new or hook into Enthrone because Imprison is too different and they don't share Seize

smoky bluff
#

Fuck it, give it siege armor veteran trait

#

Resistance to imprison target is nice

indigo oasis
#

Oh yeah that's an idea

smoky bluff
#

Obviously a guy being imprison would want a spite dead asap

indigo oasis
#

FUnctions very different between spites however

bold crystal
indigo oasis
#

For Kai Spite it's a guarantee limited to one character- for Wallflower Spite it's not guaranteed but it can extend to an entire team possibly

smoky bluff
#

You could treat it as different siege armor

#

So it turns off when you are really close

#

But the spite does need to imprison people with it

indigo oasis
#

Isn't that just turning off Imprison?

#

If you're really close you're gonna turn off Imprison anyway

smoky bluff
#

Doesn't have to be the same as siege armor itself

#

Or we could always specify its only 1 imprisoned target

opal folio
#

random thought, what about an NPC version of HG2? Grants soft cover to all allies in burst 2 in addition to guardian

smoky bluff
#

That'll be cool, but you can do that with a marine spite

manic sky
#

I abruptly remembered that I have the very old version of Kai's Veteran rebake, which includes Avenger, Lurker, Spite, and Strider. These I'm pretty sure were done prior to rebaking any of the classes, it was just Veteran rebaked on its own. Avenger's Veteran thing in this was actually taken for an Optional (Determination) for the class rebake. Spite's Veteran option is uh... it'd be spicy.

brisk flax
#

Yeah that version is pretty old in general

manic sky
#

It is! Like half of these were taken as optionals I think.

vale crescent
#

Vet trait idea, when the spite uses imprison, it may effect 2 characters

#

Mmmm. That's a lot :P

#

Is it?

#

Then maybe something like, one of those characters is only effected for a turn or smthn

rose hamlet
#

I freely admit I fell down the “just make it target two guys instead” design hole for some of my PPG vet traits

#

Survey’s still out on them and their quality though lol

prime urchin
#

I mean, if the "shoot me please x2" worked for the Knight, why wouldn't it for the Spite ? (Because they are absolutely not the same.)

rose hamlet
#

Is there a condition that Spite doesn’t already inflict? I’m thinking “zap someone for Shredded” , though I admit that it’s not much of a Controller or Defender trait (I clock Shredded as almost purely a support condition)

#

But something named the Spite strikes me as a Condition Inflicter

vale crescent
rose hamlet
#

“Stop moving or become shredded” sort of thing

vale crescent
#

Ya

#

Id also argue shredded is akin to a striker/dps tool if say, given by a weapon attack such as a chain axe. I wouldn't call a chain axe a support ability 😛

#

That's just a testament to what cool things and variance you can get from conditions IG

rose hamlet
smoky bluff
#

When the Spite Imprision someone, they can choose one character within sensor to have resistance to the imprisioned target

vale crescent
#

Oooh

#

I like that

prime urchin
#

Gets anoying to track for base Spite but yea (carceri sweating )

blissful lion
#

Is aegis immune to getting impaired from structure damage table? Or is that like self inflicted so it still counts?

rose hamlet
#

That may be worth checking #rules-questions ? Since it shows up in CRB for both default Aegis and for anyone with Superior By Design?

vale crescent
indigo oasis
#

Out of curiosity- what’s the reasoning behind the Spite’s Edict not having its damage be reducible? I presume it’s to deal with weird cases like “well would Hyperdense Armor resist it?” but it is an unfortunate case against Napoleon and Manticore/Lycan’s traits

#

Among others

bold crystal
#

this is a spitball but I think the spite's Imprison should also end when it Stabilizes.
this is purely because I want to see a minotaur bully it with law of blades.

vale crescent
#

My guess is that irreducable damage in this case just that irriducable damage isn't meant to care what damage type it is, just that the HP goes down by this much and always that much

#

It doesnt want people to go "aha, your punishment means nothing because I can resist it!" And ignore it because its a tank... rather than... if its just a hp tank like a balor lol

smoky bluff
#

I just thought it's Irreducible because the damage is coming from your mechs innards

#

Compared to most other bullets which most resistances would resist because of it

brisk flax
#

The thing about letting Edict be resisted is it really pulls the teeth out of it

#

Another example of a "guy that damages you as punishment for disobeying it" is the Archer, but the thing about the Archer is that it can shoot you with its gun AND then suppress you

#

In terms of a stick to hit people with, the rebake Spite really only has Edict. Being able to go "lmao 2 damage" means there's very little reason to care about it, and beyond manticores/lycans and napoleons (all mechs I would argue are the sorts of things the Spite is designed to challenge) Hardpoint Reinforcement off the Caliban isn't super hard to get access to

#

I'm fine with Enthrone damage being blunted, I don't view it as integral to what the Spite is trying to do, which is "turning off stuff the PCs can normally do/forcing them to do things they don't want to"

indigo oasis
#

I did forget about Hardpoints- good points, thank you

opal folio
#

this is kind of a broader rule clarification, but just to confirm -- is it intended that the Scourer can melt pieces of cover next to a target with Melt to afflict them with the thermal lance effect?

vale crescent
#

Yeah

#

It says it can do that un the trait

brisk flax
#

so the thing about lurkers is that the mech itself is kind of whatever, the shroud zones are the actual threat, but the problem is the core lurker has really anemic placement range, and also I don't think the shroud zones sufficiently threaten

#

the shredded is a big part of it, but like, outside of that they're just kinda "well don't go near here I guess" in a very Demolisher-esque fashion

#

so the lurker, imo, needs more deployment range, and more ways to make shroud zones dangerous (which is partly accomplished by expanding their deployment range, partly accomplished by tying more effects to said zones)

rose hamlet
#

Yeah that works pretty well

brisk flax
#

the thing about "omg range 10 shrouds" is that the lurker, for most intents and purposes, doesn't have a standard move

rose hamlet
#

Kinetic Transference reminded me of Wraith from Evolve so that’s cool

brisk flax
#

the most you can go with a range 5 shroud, then teleporting to the furthest edge, is 6 spaces, or about a speed 3 move + boost

#

now, one could argue that maybe the lurker is meant to be more like a Demolisher/Pyro-esque threat, but I'm just not sure I see it working in quite the same way

rose hamlet
#

Yeah no i agree. It’s a striker, it should be able to engage the opponent

brisk flax
#

all their "tankiness" is crammed into "being in a shroud zone," a thing designed to be popped

#

and once outside of it, they're pretty vulnerable

#

and also yeah, it is explicitly Striker designated

#

now maybe roles are fake on the PC end, but a slow, lumbering melee striker as an NPC is one that's going to struggle to do its job

wise creek
#

Just to clarify, when an effect specifies being "within" a shroud zone, does that mean completely within or does partial count as well

bold crystal
rose hamlet
#

Altogether I like the new optionals more than the old ones. I think the Grunt Summon is actually a great Striker-as-objective-taker tool since it improves your head count

ancient forge
#

Kinetic Transference sounds like a fun optional to put on an elite or ultra; on a read it's giving an impression of a boss placing down telegraphed areas to mark where it can do a charging attack

rose hamlet
#

I have a feeling that Scouring Whip will still very often deal double damage due to “apply pull first, then apply damage” but it’ll need to make sure it’s positioned correctly to do so

bold crystal
#

but like, pushed a little further

rose hamlet
#

Making the shroud less of a Fuck You and The Horse You Rode In On tool is good too

bold crystal
#

losing resistance and the impaired on shroud zones is good. straight up they did too much stuff

rose hamlet
#

Impaired vs foe is gone, as is the resistance yeah

brisk flax
rose hamlet
#

Feels a lot less overloaded

bold crystal
#

devouring shard being able to be thrown out of any shroud zone also just makes it a more interesting optional

brisk flax
#

I would probably say "partial counts"

wise creek
bold crystal
#

absolute darkness fucks. good optional.

rose hamlet
#

Shard losing the “save for half” is also more manageable

#

Altogether I like the off-controller aspect of this a lot

brisk flax
rose hamlet
#

My true litmus test will be, of course, whether I can deploy 2 or more at once without them becoming A Problem (Negative)™️

bold crystal
#

I also see defensive shroud is baseline and has a teleport, which I think compensates for losing the outright resistance

#

since it makes it more mobile and a lot harder to isolate

bold crystal
twin reef
#

So the other Lurker gets the Grunt template despite Grunt not being a Template anymore?

bold crystal
#

strictly I don't think the rebake removes the grunt template

rose hamlet
#

Minor: I noticed the optional Size ½ stat— nice coverage of Hecatoncheires lovers

brisk flax
# twin reef So the other Lurker gets the Grunt template despite Grunt not being a Template a...

Each of these elements is designed with an eye towards modularity; you can use them together or pick individual components that you wish to use while ignoring the rest, and you can use them as a replacement for core rulebook material or alongside it. For example, you could use bespoke Grunts and also make use of the core rulebook's Grunt template, or you could choose not to use the new Structure Damage and Overheating tables if you prefer the viscerality of the default version. You can even use rebaked NPCs alongside their core rulebook versions if you want. None of these components require the use of others in order to function.

twin reef
#

Ahh.

bold crystal
#

also, goodbye ripper claws. number one optional that simply did not need to exist.

brisk flax
#

I can either repeat what the grunt template does word for word, or I can use the grunt template

rose hamlet
#

This is interesting though to think about: Lurker isn’t a Hive with a singular zone. Normally I’d think “objective taker? They don’t wanna pull an enemy next to them if they’re on the objective, that’s a Tank trick to get them off the objective”

but then I realized “huh. Wait a sec. Make a zone on the objective, then a second shroud zone off the objective, then pull the enemy off the objective and teleport ONTO the objective. Score!”

brisk flax
#

the lurker can be in potentially multiple places at once, it can (with optionals) displace people, it can create an additional body, etc

#

the shroud zones ARE the threat vector

rose hamlet
#

The displacement paired with Umbral Shift was the Striker attack vector I was missing

bold crystal
rose hamlet
#

Rebake Lurker doesn’t wanna grapple folks really (it’s less durable and grapple turns off Defensive Shroud), it doesn’t wanna be sticky, it wants to just use controller tools while walloping folks

#

So I’m down for this, aggressive shroud placement transforms this thing from a Rearguard to a Vanguard

brisk flax
#

yeah I have no idea why you would ever want to grapple with a lurker tbh

bold crystal
#

also, Umbral Shift doesn't say line of sight anymore

brisk flax
#

it's just not something it's suited for

bold crystal
#

frankly the autograpple was kind of brutal - it could umbral shift and kidnap people and it was difficult to escape due to impaired+invis+it could overwatch you again if you actually broke the grapple and tried to get away

brisk flax
#

being only size 1 and grappling feels like, to me anyway, more of a risky gameplan even with the impaired involved

#

if it works it's really strong, but if it's not then the lurker is at a pretty big danger of getting yanked out of the zone

#

to say nothing of "oh this guy is size 2"

rose hamlet
#

Gonna be interesting to see how Hide fits into its typical rotations

#

Probably used when nobody’s in reach or it doesn’t wanna Umbral Shift

dire shadow
brisk flax
# 
other characters, they never take damage when they
succeed on a save – regardless of the weapon or
system used – but otherwise take damage normally.```\
#

I very deliberately do not want a recharge 6 thing to die deterministically to a frag grenade

dire shadow
#

Ah right fair

brisk flax
#

just like I very deliberately did NOT incorporate that consideration into the engineer's turrets because it gets to spawn them infinitely

oak heron
#

What does "can act on the turn it is created" mean for the Umbral Clone? Does it take its activation to act on the Lurker's turn, or does it basically get two activations on the round it's created (Lurker's turn + its own activation)?

#

(Or is that supposed to be the round it is created?)

brisk flax
#

Round

spice aspen
#

does this take on Umbral Shift require LoS? hopefully I'm not being pedantic by asking -- I usually assume LoS as an implicit requirement unless otherwise specified, but since the mention of line of sight was removed in the rebaked version of the feature compared to the original, I'm curious

rose hamlet
#

The thing is that Teleportation usually doesn’t require line of sight

spice aspen
#

oh yeah, right you are

rose hamlet
#

For that reason I’m inclined to interpret it as “no LOS needed to the zones”

spice aspen
#

yeah, that's a fairly good point

#

I know mirage works that way (wrt teleporting stuff through walls and the like) so it makes sense yeah. thanks

indigo oasis
indigo oasis
indigo oasis
rose hamlet
#

I’ve always had a dim view of teleport kidnaps anyway

indigo oasis
#

I like them too much

rose hamlet
#

It’s a mechanic I’d love on a dedicated NPC

bold crystal
#

telekidnapping is frankly just kind of rough for players. it's cool for players to do and very frustrating for npcs to do.

rose hamlet
#

But not as a “general cool trick”

manic sky
#

In the old doc the Veteran Lurker trait was a replacement for the grapple smuggle

indigo oasis
#

The rebake makes the Specter the only step user now so it’s generally a lot less rough with rebake NPCs imo

bold crystal
#

hornets still have it technically, but they're size 1/2

rose hamlet
#

Yeah, it makes my custom lift/drag rules (which outlaw teleport kidnapping on pain of death) much easier to implement

manic sky
# 
Lurker (NRfaW)
Abduction
Trait
When the Lurker uses Umbral Shift while inside a Shroud Zone, they may choose
a hostile character also within that Shroud Zone. That character must pass an
Agility save or be teleported along with the Lurker to a free space adjacent to them or
as close as possible.
#

(it says Umbral Shroud but I assume...)

indigo oasis
#

I’m of the opinion that there is some reasonably disliked CRB bs that I like too much, and that’s ok

#

Ooh, fun bit- the Rebake Lurker has the option to be size 1/2 now!

#

I presume this is because of the Hecatonchieres

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(If the Wallflower one had this option the whole time then whoops)

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(On Comp/Con they don’t so I think it’s all good)

#

The armor and extra HP on the lurker at the loss of resistance is also fun

bold crystal
#

it actually already had armor

indigo oasis
#

Oh worm?

bold crystal
#

(for some reason! on top of the resistance!)

indigo oasis
#

Ok for some reason jt doesn’t have armor in tier 1 tho?

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I also see the Umbral Shift into other Lurker Shroud Zones is still around- fun, I recall that not being looked upon too favorably in this chat last time it came up so glad the Range 10 deployment upgrade made keeping it around less of an issue

indigo oasis
#

That’s the Assassin

#

I was looking at the Assassin -_-

spice aspen
oak heron
indigo oasis
#

Tbh the Scouring Whip is still a lot, but at least it’s less a lot without the crit grapple. Probably shouldn’t be cut down further too, should be fine as is

spice aspen
#

otoh a telegraph might end up feeling useless, not sure

indigo oasis
spice aspen
#

could work. that would mean that things with extra activations (elite, spec op, etc) have an implicit advantage but that might not be undesirable depending on vibes

indigo oasis
#

A Protocol in particular is interesting because the NPC could lose control of the grapple and potentially not get it back

#

But there’s still desperate chance to gain back the grapple control

#

Another notice about Umbral Shroud- it’s no longer once per round, so multi-activation Lurkers can deploy multiple shroud zones in a round… it’s most likely fine but I’m looking at it with a squint =_=

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I do notice that Empowered Shrouds still require two hits to shrink rather than either taking one hit or having the first hit shrink the zone. That was a bookkeeping issue people brought up and the listed examples were considered workarounds- any reason you decided to keep Empowered Shrouds as is Kai?

#

And Kinetic Transference… omg Kinetic Transference 🤤

This is the exact kind of telefrag fantasy I’ve dreamed of and was considering making an Ultra trait for, and it has a Teleport Kidnap strat on a dedicated trait. I adore it

indigo oasis
oak heron
#

Greater Voider from Qud, whose schtick is teleporting people away to its lair to eat them

indigo oasis
#

Also, is the Hull and Agility in tier 3 supposed to be the same as it is in tier 2?

#

The HASE progression, aside from -1 to -2 Engi, appears to be the same as the Wallflower lurker, plus Kai has been explicit about wanting progress of stats across tiers to be constant, so that seems to be an error

brisk flax
#

Frankly, I think having empowered shroud be a thing that can be shrunk on hit sounds way more bookkeepy than "this now has 2 hits instead of 1"

indigo oasis
#

Really? How come?

#

The size being a “health” indicator feels, idk, intuitive to me

brisk flax
#

Having to keep changing persistent AoE sizes sounds tedious as hell

indigo oasis
#

Ah yeah that’d do it, fair enough

brisk flax
#

Doing it one way is imo enough rather than a tug of war

indigo oasis
#

Also I was thinking about it after you mentioned it- strategically it makes attacking the empowered shroud way too complicated

#

Too many moving parts at that point when trying to consider “who’s gonna be out of the shroud and who’s gonna be still in it,” “if I make this one attack should I make another”, “will reducing the shroud encourage the Lurker to make a new one and get rid of it or will it sunk cost fallacy invest in it”, etc

blissful lion
#

Enjoying having more characters give themselves heat. Feels interesting for the ace to dodge a slow but still become exposed instead of just saying “lol, you miss”

vale crescent
#

Ooh new Lurker

#

Neat, the grunt trait looks hella cool

brisk flax
last blade
#

this lurker doesn't get soft cover in its shroud zones, is the correct read?
(also, slight grammatical error in the empower shroud wording, "takes two successful attacks to disperse [the] zone instead of one.")

brisk flax
#

Shrouds aren't a drone ala razor swarms so there's no reciprocal "the hive can use it for cover because the drone is a character, and thus by Allied Characters it means allies to the drone" thing happening

last blade
#

reasoning all makes sense to me, yep

#

the thought of hiding when using lurkers hasn't occurred to me, but wow that really would just up the 'fuck you' attitude of the original NPC

bold crystal
#

(this is actually sort of a weird thing because razor swarms(on both sides) aren't characters and have the same 'allied characters in the [zone] get soft cover' wording - I'm not certain about the hive but the hecaton is definitely supposed to get soft cover from its.)

brisk flax
#

I mean razor swarms are drones

#

they're weird drones without a lot of the usual "HP and a body" stuff, but they do have The Drone Tag

bold crystal
#

right, but I don't know that most people are going to see that and go 'yeah that's a distinction'

brisk flax
#

the hive can get cover from razor swarms yeah

bold crystal
#

also it does introduce a bit of weirdness where if there are two lurkers they want to be in each other's zones so they get the soft cover. I don't really have an opinion on this one

smoky bluff
smoky bluff
#

Lurker birth a little baby

#

call it mechpreg

smoky bluff
#

Yeah 3 out of 4 NRFaWF rebaked already

smoky bluff
#

Damn I never updated the lcp text, oh well. Not like it needs correction anytime soon

soft ice
#

Lancer FX has been updated so this shouldn't be necessary.
Added the rebaked Wallflower NPCs to Lancer Weapon FX. ~~Until the new version is released ~~you can replace this file: modules/lancer-weapon-fx/scripts/weaponEffects.js

📎 weaponEffects.js
rose hamlet
#

Brief report from today's LL6 Escort:

Initial OPFOR:

  • 1x Brisk Veteran Demolisher (Speed 3, Hullcracker, Heavy Tread, Veterancy ENG)
  • 2x Cataphract (Lance Shot)
  • 2x Operator (Deniable Asset, Burn-on-Crit)
  • 1x Occultist [PPG] (Drone herder/sacrificer control/support)

Reinforcements:

  • 1x Operator
  • 1x Cataphract
  • 2x Demolisher
  • 1x Occultist

Demolisher

Hullcracker is great for turns where you have to move + boost. All my players had at least 4 Hull though, so it never really landed haha. Part of me felt there should be a "miss effect" but then I looked at the Quick Action and Recharge 5+ tags and thought "nah, it's fine". Heavy Tread was well received as thematic and appropriate for its role. Due to good movement control of the Demos and the nature of the sitrep (they needed to spend a Quick Action to contest the Escort objective), no hammers were swung! This isn't part of the rebake, but Speed 3 let the Demo feel more naturally proactive in establishing a foothold.

Cataphract

Lance shot felt neat to try and position. Full Action meant that as long as I wasn't slowed/proned/displaced/controlled, I could usually use it alongside my speed 8. Given I was facing a Hacktuga and an Iskander, this was not always the case lol. Hullmaxers stayed winning. Was interesting to pair with Heavy Frame Demolishers, as it could mean I could fire through the Demo with no drawback. Cool!

Operator

Deniable asset was nasty but not outta line. I used the Burn on Crit rule you floated around. It put the fear of RA in the players and I found myself exclusively using the Accuracy half of Strike and Fade to trigger things since there were very few threats able to reach my Operators. Teleport on building, shoot gun, drop off with boost was the standard rotation. Burn Crits were juicy, but no one ever failed a burn check, so they functioned practically as AP and Psychological damage. Hefty damage, but not as hefty as 2x 7 damage attacks would've been. Satisfying!

#

Players were:

  • Goblin Hacktuga
  • Iskander w/ Gilgamesh + Sunzi stuff
  • Kutuzov w/ Emperor stuff and Kai Bioplating
  • Viceroy w/ U-RPL
#

Kai Bioplating was clutch for this Escort since the Kutuzov got Rammed prone by a demo at one point; it could ignore the map's difficult terrain, the Heavy Tread difficult terrain, and the Prone difficult terrain effects thanks to Kai Bioplating.

#

Used custom stress rules that resulted in a consistent Exposed on the Viceroy. Since they were off on their own amongst the DPR NPCs, they got hit by Cataphracts and Operators all the way down to 1 Structure, but ultimately survived. There was a point where fingers were crossed for an Operator burn crit on the Exposed Viceroy, but it hit with a 19 instead videogames

#

OSIRIS continues to be a Controller powerhouse tool, Cataphracts feel nice with 7 damage hits. On-crit effect on Lance Cannon was neat but never recharged an Impale, unfortunately.

#

Operator Deniable Asset appeared to have little counterplay for close range folks, until they realized "wait, just Slow them" and then everyone was cool with it. Cataphract Lance Shot seemed like the Recharge 6+ was steep to some folks, but I was fine with it.

Altogether, Escort ended on the first turn of Round 6 after about 4 hours of play. 3 Structure damage on the Viceroy, 1 on the Iskander. Iskander had Grease Monkey so patch-ups were easy.

vale crescent
#

Hello, it is me the Iskander. So, not much to say here. Rebakes are being ingrained more and more into my mind so they feel more and more standard so it's kinda hard for me to point things out. The demolishers were A presence good for contesting and screwing us over with heavy frame and speed 3 but that is CRB and PPG so not rebake... There was a moment where a Cataphract was consuming lock on and was just powering through difficulty against me in hard cover and I kinda felt the "ok what's the point of this cover then..." Then again, action sink for lock on was happening so I was taking a minor hit for just being a presence. But due to spaceborn and SBD I kinda didn't care too much about Cataphracts, I could just take their knockback wherever and hopefully not be immobilised... Or just roll well lol

ON crit effects, I find it some very funny cruel irony that the first attack that is made against me was a Operator crit. I found it funny but I wasn't scared, I had 21 HP and +4 Eng, I didn't mind much... All it did was punch through 1 armour. On Crit Cataphract though, it did eventually flank me and hit me with either 3 accuracy or 2 I don't remember and it crit me impairing me... Superior by design I didn't really care lol but even then it was the last round so the impaired didn't effect me. Hypothetically, if I did get impaired on hit, my opinnion would just be like "Ok sure I guess", it ain't guaranteed... I might have felt it more but it kinda just happened, then again that's just crits I guess

Operator... Not much to say, they didn't annihilate us... They felt fine, I was like "Damn... What counterplay is there to these Deniable assets" and followed it with "oh, just slow them..." and then I felt foolish lol. But in terms of priority now... I kinda treat them in my mind at the same level as I would treat a CRB assault... IDK if that's a good or bad thing

rose hamlet
#

I felt completely comfortable fielding 2x Operators and 2x Cataphracts in the initial opfor, no problemo

vale crescent
#

Honestly I am quite bad with feedback for damagge numbers lol

#

I've only ever played T1... So IDK If 7 damage are a lot because I pump hull too much. And I'm used to damage numbers being dealt to my lil guys rather than being a player and taking damage

rose hamlet
#

Tbf so am I, I spend too much time on T1 testing where Armor has an outsized impact

#

This being T2, damage felt meaty

vale crescent
#

I had a reality check first playtest when an operator missed and I got hit with spongebob_boowomp.mp3 after taking 4 damage on a miss

rose hamlet
#

And granted I was using homebrew structure damage rules that were a lot more forgiving for the Viceroy’s part

spice aspen
#

(random question here, hopefully not interrupting, uh-- the wallflower rebakes are just a "for fun" thing and won't be included in the full rebake release, right? I seem to recall hearing that, but since I've seen LCPs of them and stuff at this point I want to be sure)

vale crescent
#

For fun I think. Don't quote me on it

rose hamlet
#

I wouldn’t plan on them making the full release, no. Kai may change his mind but I’m not betting on it (and if I’m wrong, it’ll be a welcome surprise)

spice aspen
#

alright gotcha, cool

#

is there a rebaked version of the strider? it seems Real Complicated so I don't imagine there is, atm, but I'm curious kitteehee

rose hamlet
#

Not yet to my knowledge

vale crescent
#

The only one which hasn't been rebaked

spice aspen
#

it's a giant pile of Mechanics so I don't blame kai

errant needle
#

I mean, there's always Rebaked Eidolo- <shot by a Rebaked Moving Target>

brisk flax
indigo oasis
spice aspen
ancient forge
#

Rebake striders travel between Ald'ruhn, Balmora, Seyda Neen, Suran, Gnisis, Molag Mar, Maar Gan, and North Landing near Vivec

indigo oasis
#

Because you can just bypass a good portion of its gimmicks without issue thanks to bypassing resistance and such

bold crystal
errant needle
rose hamlet
#

We have rebake strider, it’s called “Grunt Rebake” and it removes the ability to swap kits

ancient forge
#

The original version is something I’ve struggled to use effectively. It’s a lot of realizing there was a more optimal way to take its turn the moment I hand things back over to the players

indigo oasis
#

idk what y'all are talking about, of the two striders I used one was a fantastic artillery and the other died on the first turn

spice aspen
#

they're very feast or famine

#

either they terrorize the PCs for half the combat with unreducable sniper shots, or they get rushed down and shoved into a locker by the start of round 2

vale crescent
#

Or shit Jams out the arse apparently

neon blaze
#

yeah the irony of strider kits is that you don't actually want to swap kits unless its That One Optional Kit

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because by the time you get explosive rifle out you're dead

#

which does feel like a let down but I've harped on that long enough

bold crystal
#

eh, the thing is, you actually want to swap every turn. because doing that gives you unreduceable sniper shots that ignore ordnance and well, if you can, why do literally anything else?

indigo oasis
#

What the strider really needs is +5 HP

vale crescent
#

Swap benefits was a mistake

indigo oasis
#

Or something in that ballpark

indigo oasis
neon blaze
#

I mean thats largely why I don't think the Strider actually works well at being a Strider, funny enough - you want to swap every turn but by swapping you ironically then can't do anything on that turn

The theory is sound, the practice isn't

bold crystal
#

(in practice the swapping, well, isn't)

neon blaze
#

its very much been a damned if you do, damned if you don't experience

bold crystal
neon blaze
#

like ... to be blunt about it, its the wrong framework for the wrong NPC

bold crystal
#

the swap bonus isn't a weapon or system and you're only using stuff from one kit(the rifle)

indigo oasis
#

I still have hope for the strider personally

neon blaze
bold crystal
#

I'm really curious what kai is going to do with it because it's nigh nonfunctional

#

as what it's described as

indigo oasis
#

Maybe it's just the Skirmisher kit honestly because I'm hearing some appreciation (maybe not admiration but appreciation) for elements of the other 3 kits tbh

#

Like the Jam is mean but fun, the Irreducable damage is mean but fun, and in my experience the Siege Kit is very handy to fire and swap into when building a snipers perch

vale crescent
#

Like, in an ideal world. The Strider changes kit because it's better for the situation. You try to rush the strider and it actually pulls a shotgun on you, blasts you away and scampers off dodgingg your reactions just to setup to a new sniper spot

rose hamlet
bold crystal
#

skirmisher kit suffers from like, kind of being redundant. you swap to it when somebody is next to you and it uhhhhhh gives you reaction immunity, bye

#

do you even necessarily shoot them? maybe not

neon blaze
#

When I first read Strider what I expected was a hit-and-run skirmisher, swapping between two kits to keep players on edge - pressure them up close, then pull back to hammer them from afar

realistically, and what I typically hear and have been told, is what you actually want to do is use it as a mini-sniper and only swap kit if A: you're in trouble or B: you have Siege Kit

The swap bonuses I agree are a mistake but not as a fundemental concept, its just that I think swap bonuses are the wrong effect for an NPC thats meant to be a ranger with an emergency shotgun

#

if you're getting bonuses for swapping then its not an emergency effect, it should be the whole gameplay loop

#

you should be swapping every turn

indigo oasis
#

I think if you were to rebake the Strider it should still be swapping every turn rather than ditching the gameplay loop entirely

neon blaze
#

just ironically, its not at all optimal to do and often you're better just staying in Marksman kit. It's all wrong.

vale crescent
#

What if the Strider was immobilised in some of the kits

bold crystal
#

also I don't like 'you get paracausal damage for breathing'

rose hamlet
#

I’d be okay with a “quick action weapon transform” effect, maybe, but I do think that on some level Strider should’ve been an MBT style boss instead

neon blaze
#

to be fair the paracausal never bothered me

indigo oasis
#

It should be MBT style in choosing only 2 kits with none base rather than having 2 base kits and then adding more

neon blaze
#

(and besides, the anti-armor weapon being good against armor doesn't shock me)

vale crescent
bold crystal
rose hamlet
bold crystal
#

like, if it was ap > upgrade to paracausal it might not feel so weird

vale crescent
#

I think it then falters that it doesn't feel like the tempest or MBT in vibe. It's just a scrappy little guy who has 2 backup guns and swaps between them because they're indecisive in their loadout... They're not a main battletank with a variety of weapons or a massive greywash swarm

neon blaze
#

the bigger bother to me has been and always will be the fact the Strider is trying to be a multi-role NPC when its quite bluntly a single role NPC

vale crescent
#

Mmm yeah

neon blaze
#

which means it has two ways of going about this

brisk flax
#

I love when everybody already makes my points for me

vale crescent
brisk flax
#

Basically yes, Joan and and Reconus have pretty much summarized the issues

vale crescent
brisk flax
#

The strider is essentially, at its core, a funky artillery unit with an off-loading gameplan

bold crystal
#

I think the biggest issue is really that it's described as having weaknesses based on range bands and. it simply doesn't. that's not true.

indigo oasis
neon blaze
#

A: stop it with the Kits, unironically. either have only Artillery style kits and throw the Skirmisher and Sapper kits out, or just genuinely don't have a swap mechanic and instead pace it out a different way

B: actual be multi-role and make it have a reason to not only want to get close, but perform well up close without it basically just being Jamming Pylon carrying it

*i forgor to reply to myself but imagine i did

bold crystal
rose hamlet
bold crystal
#

if you're further or closer, and it has probably three or more targets to choose from here, it has something good to do

vale crescent
#

Main rifle... Bang shoot, make it want to be at a certain rangge band like before. Then like, give it a QA to basically run TF away... Make it a weakned lower range sniper that has the ability to fuck off when something tries to get it

solid pilot
#

I mean that sounds like overlap with operator

vale crescent
#

Yeah

rose hamlet
vale crescent
solid pilot
#

I mean... That idea of having it be a "sapper" so it acts like an off controller?

vale crescent
rose hamlet
#

Two guns, no swaps. One is range 5. The other is range 15 but can’t be used vs targets in range 5

blissful lion
#

Striders losing kits when they structure

rose hamlet
#

Love that for a System trauma result

neon blaze
#

Anyway, unrelated: I won't be continuing my session until like, the 14th? and I'm impatient, so I'm just submitting my playtest report after 4 rounds of combat - I think we've hacked each other to pieces enough to kind of get a feeling for most things

vale crescent
#

I think the strider would be PERFECT... For like... A video game

ancient forge
#

Oh god it sounds like a nightmare to code

neon blaze
#

Immediate thoughts so far though are "Operator is in a nice place now, double with the Crit effect, Bastion is much better overall, Archer could maybe be problematic, Pyro indeed is a Pyro which is everyone's problem". really the only one I didn't get chance to comment on is Aegis because literally no one has tried to even shoot it yet, so its just been a Light Laser platform

ancient forge
#

Just a big ball of rules exceptions

indigo oasis
#

Hm- I'm making some Misc Reinforcements for my next mission (basically if the Players are steamrolling a combat I have emergency reserves), and I'm throwing in the Operator- all the optionals are so fun which one should I choose? The combats will be a control, gauntlet, then deathmatch so stuff that can repel players will be good- but also I wanna pick an under-picked uptional for the data

blissful lion
#

To me they really seem like you need a good plan for them as the set piece, compared to something like an assault or hive that you can more easily slip in to an encounter

solid pilot
#

I might just turn ||Venom|| into a reflavored totally-not-a-pegasus from crisis core

vale crescent
#

Honestly, if I rerun Wallflower I would just make ||venom a sniper||

#

||Their guns a super heavy... Sting is a super heavy... but then I could replace that damn specter with other NPCs such as a regular Strider or two||

solid pilot
#

I mean idk how much it would help but I did add a Zealot to ||Trapdoor Spider||-

rose hamlet
#

It makes it easier to get the Self-Erasure Blind off too

#

(Betcha missed that one, because I sure did until today)

indigo oasis
#

I think if I wanna test the Operator Crit Burn effect, Overload Shot is the most potent option to test it with

vale crescent
#

"Hey Valk, they're operators. They explode"
"Oh yeah, They also trigger deniable asset"

God damn it

rose hamlet
#

God bless my players, keeping me honest

#

So I can blow mechs up on them 🥹

vale crescent
#

"Damn what counterplay does this have?"

The humble fragment signal

neon blaze
#

it always comes back to fragment signal

#

the easiest action

#

grunts? fragment signal
berserkers? fragment signal
hornets? aces? you better believe it when i say fragment signal
ultras? fragment signal, if you're quick

vale crescent
#

Demolisher is not on point, you'll never guess what I'll say next

neon blaze
#

execrate, obviously

#

(i say, sobbing)

blissful lion
#

Overload shot + burn on crit is pretty good, made a PC use their stabilise because they were scared of it + a bit of repair

#

my operator is at max heat tho ;-;

solid pilot
brisk flax
#

Sting is basically meant to be a PC-ified version of their gun

smoky bluff
solid pilot
#

man- now I'm rethinking my current plan for ||Trapdoor Spider||

brisk flax
#

okay so

#

now that I'm back at my desk

#

yes, I largely agree with many of the points being raised regarding the strider, in that it largely centers (imo) around kit switching solely to make the long rifle better (charging it with paracausal) rather than "I'm going to adapt to this situation," and in fact I'm gonna go one step further and say "an NPC that has a bunch of stuff so it can change what it does moment to moment" is bad design by my personal standards of tactics game NPC design

#

the entire premise of the rebake is "NPCs should be focused along a particular line of gameplay identity" and an NPC that wants to do five things at once is antithetical to that

#

if you want "oh, I could really use a hacker right about now" what you want is called "reinforcements"

bold crystal
#

(especially 'I can do five things at once' the way the strider does it is extremely close to just, 'okay, why not just give it all the options at once')

brisk flax
#

all that being said, another part of the premise of this project is cleaving as closely as possible to the original intent whenever possible rather than simply throwing it out and starting over

#

I allowed myself to do this with the operator because fundamentally I do not believe the operator had an identity to diverge from

#

"just kind of generically good" is not an identity

#

the strider, for all of its flaws, has one

#

to this end, I think one of the things that really makes the strider fairly one-note is that it has stuff that incentivizes swapping kits but not really anything to incentivize staying in a given kit

#

there is never a reason for you to want to just stay in Marksman Kit two turns in a row because frankly doing so makes the strider worse

#

so the solution I am currently exploring is "okay so give it stuff that does so"

# 
Trait, Quick Action
The Strider swaps to one of their available kits, gaining new weapons, systems, and traits. By default, they have two kits, Marksman Kit and Skirmisher Kit, and can gain more with optional systems. Each kit comes with a special Kit Bonus that activates at the start of their turn, as well as a Swap Bonus that only activates when they use this trait as a quick action; if the Strider chooses to gain the Kit Bonus, then they can't activate this trait (and thus gain the Swap Bonus) until the start of their next turn.

In any given turn, they can only use weapons, systems, and traits from one kit. When one of the Strider’s weapons or systems are destroyed, it must be chosen from their active kit.

The Strider starts combat with any kit of their choice.```
# 
Marksman Kit
Kit Bonus: At the start of their turn, the Strider may Lock On to a hostile character within Sensors and line of sight as a free action.
Swap Bonus: This turn only, the Ranger Long Rifle ignores the Ordnance tag.

Ranger Long Rifle
Heavy Rifle
Ordnance
+0/1/2
Range 15
8/10/12 kinetic damage
This weapon can't attack targets within Range 5.

On Critical Hit: This weapon's damage can't be reduced in any way.

Flash Grenade
System, Grenade, Quick Action, Recharge 6+
The Strider throws a grenade at a character within Range 5, forcing them to make an Agility save. On a failure, the target only has line of sight to adjacent spaces until the end of their next turn. On a success, they become Impaired until the end of their next turn instead. This system automatically recharges whenever the Strider uses Swap Kit.

Adaptive Camouflage
Trait
At the end of its turn, the Strider is shrouded in a camouflage field that treats all attacks originating beyond Range 5 as if it was Invisible. This lasts until it moves, takes a reaction, or swaps kits.

Skirmisher Kit
Kit Bonus: At the start of their turn, the Strider may move 2 spaces. This movement ignores engagement and doesn't provoke reactions.
Swap Bonus: The Strider makes an attack against a character within Range 5 using the Explosive Carbine as a free action.

Explosive Carbine
Main CQB
Knockback 3
+1/2/3
Range 5, Threat 3
4/5/6 explosive damage

Reposition
Trait, Reaction, 1/round
Trigger: Another character in Sensors begins their turn.
Effect: The Strider moves spaces equal to their Speed. This movement ignores engagement and doesn't provoke reactions.

Smoke Grenade
System, Grenade, Quick Action
The Strider throws a smoke grenade at a space within Range 5, creating a Blast 2 cloud of smoke. This area provides soft cover until the end of the scene, or until the Strider uses this system again.```
bold crystal
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oh, that's interesting.

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I like the swap bonus for skirmisher being a free attack.

smoky bluff
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oh i like