The NPC Rebake Project and NPC Tinkering Power Zone (NO MULTIATTACKERS ALLOWED)

[brisk flax]

there are some exceptions, the bombard's flare drone has high HP because it's designed to be shot at by the bombard

but basically the titan-snare drone is functionally unchanged from the CRB except for being more physically fragile

[heavy pebble]

Might just be really effective against this melee-focused comp

[small hamlet]

Trying to work out Veteran traits for my IGF NPCs

[rose hamlet]

You’ve caught the bug too?

I went an extra 9 yards and did Ultra traits

it was an excuse to give my Knight a reasonable Shadow Duel feature

[smoky bluff]

It does feel like a good feature to have

tbh it gives me excuses to make more optionals for my npcs too

[young laurel]

Specialised Veteran and Ultra traits are pretty funky and nice

[blissful lion]

I was experimenting with it a bit, but lost steam pretty quickly

[young laurel]

Is kinda hard making unique ones tbh

[blissful lion]

I made like 3 per class

And when you made them an ultra you’d pick if they upgraded their weapon, system, or gained something new like a trait

[rose hamlet]

All I know is that I made a Mordekaiser/Elden Ring ultimate ability for my Knight and had nowhere to put it, so I made a place lol

[indigo oasis]

Honestly as cool as that sounds, considering all the other ultra traits that exist that feels unnecessary

[blissful lion]

I was enjoying myself ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[rose hamlet]

Don’t yuck the yums lol

There’s always room for more cool designs

[indigo oasis]

Fair enough

My b

[brisk flax]

I will say that bespoke ultra stuff is absolutely an idea I briefly spitballed but I do think the amount of work it would entail would be much more substantial than the "one veteran trait per customer" thing

I also think, personally, that the Ultra template benefits from being "broader" and less class specific simply because it's the one thing I feel deserves the whole "big box of customizability" angle

Like maybe I want to give the Ultra Demolisher support tools or an Ultra Assault some hacking stuff or Ontolotactical Array or whatever

I like it for the Ultra to do that more than I've found Veteran's 20 traits appealing in that regard

[vale crescent]

An ultra support can be a lock on buff master, reload and heal extraordinaire or an argus armour hyperdense blade melee brawler because of how diverse the ultra kits are

I guess a class based ultra trait kinda shoves the "all ultra X npcs do Y"

And if you want that, nothings stopping you from just doing that and making up rules

I had an idea for a bombard with high angle fire using a full action with limited 1 once the ultra reaches 2 or less structure, shooting out like 10 high angle fire shots at once just because cool setpiece boss ability

I can just do that 😛

[brisk flax]

Yeah none of this is me going "you shouldn't do this" just more me explaining why I personally didn't

[twin reef]

Yeah, the Ultra is like the player characters, in that you might see a Blackbeard that's a TTT Scanner Swarm Puppetwatch build.

They mix and match shit.

A Veteran is just someone who knows how to get more out of a stock frame.

[bold crystal]

minor text issue:
harbinger rockets in the doc just says '6+' instead of 'Recharge 6+'; it's implemented correctly in the lcp

[brisk flax]

Gotcha, good catch

[carmine pendant]

howdy, quick question on the NPC rebakes,
so i share a foundry with my friend, he likes the core npcs more and wants to keep them on his foundry.

I assume the rebakes just adds the new npcs instead of replacing the core ones but i wanted to double check, if that's ok?

[rose hamlet]

Yeah the Rebakes are all marked with a [K] after their name; they don't overwrite existing NPC classes

[young turtle]

I tried my hand at this type of template a while back myself

if folks are curious

https://docs.google.com/document/d/11u4lrtVTFgLOwZbzOy0-UrT3l0fS6tJZRVrpapIsaH0/edit?usp=sharing

[subtle nacelle]

LCPs in general cant overwrite other content

[young turtle]

This doesn't reflect my design principles much nowaday and a lot of this is untested

but I made a template which was basically a super special ultra

[indigo oasis]

There was some homebrew template called the Zenith or something that gave NPCs Core Powers, focusing specifically on NPC role, I think that really goes for the theme well

Apex may have been the name actors

*actually

[twilit coral]

do y'all not have seperate worlds?

[carmine pendant]

No, we share one

(We've done some co-gming so we share a world)

[neon blaze]

It's the Apex yeah - less was, more "kinda is"

[rose hamlet]

They do if they share the same IDs

I actually rely upon that overwrite when I'm applying my houserule stuff

[subtle nacelle]

oh funky, but doesn't that rely on load order more than anything?

[rose hamlet]

this is on Foundry specifically

[subtle nacelle]

i guess you could force the ordering with lcp dependencies?

[rose hamlet]

on foundry, they just get (over)written

the most recently installed is the one you get

[twin reef]

I assumed that, when you're fighting NPCs, they've popped their cores. After all, this is the only fight you'll see them in.

[indigo oasis]

NO the way it works is that the NPC has a passive ability, and then builds up charge to get the core power. Once the charge is full (and I believe only after they've taken at least 1 structure), they're able to pop the Core Power

[neon blaze]

It depends from Core to Core how they precisely function

if you wanna see more you can go find out in #1270398746508660900 where I have the mechanics

[wise creek]

Did SotW combat 2 last night and am continuing to use the rebakes. Spoilered the combat details just in case.

Party Composition:

• Bonded/House Guard, Enclave/Flash Anchor Saladin
• Juggernaut/Pankrati, all GMS system Caliban with the Hammer U-RPL
• Sysop/Exemplar/Combined Arms Balor with Swarm Body/Hive Drone
• The most vanilla Viceroy with Vanguard 3/Stormbringer 2, Gandiva/Sharanga/Missile Racks, Javelin Rockets

Combat Details

||- Sitrep: Control

• Commander Support (Latch Drone, Quick March)
• Elite Cataphract (Electrified Lasso, Electromagnetic Bola)
• Exotic Sentinel x2 (Wrath-Lock, Hardened Target)
• Elite Veteran Sniper (Sharpshooter, Moving Target, Blinding Laser)

Feedback

Overall Combat Feel
Rebakes felt really good in this one. I think the biggest thing I appreciated was the revised Structure table. There were a couple instances of enemies rolling a value that would've destroyed their only weapon on the core table, but didn't with this new one so their gameplan wasn't completely fucked. A couple cases of players rolling hot and GM rolling like shit, but the combat was ultimately down to the wire, with the players clutching it out in the final round, but not before eating through a ton of stress and OC.

NPC Specific

• Commander Support: Not really much to say about this one. Restock Drone + Sniper is a very potent combo, but not oppressively so. It kind of just sat on one of the OZs and made sure to slap its drones on the Cataphract and Sniper. Electrified
• Elite Cataphract: Dope, loved this one. The Ram Cannon is a much more interesting weapon and felt more flexible now that the Knockback was only tied to the melee attack. I do think Recharge 6+ on Impale is a little harsh even with the crit effect and innate accuracy on the Ram Cannon, might just be a consequence of the aforementioned "GM rolling like shit" phenomena.
• Exotic Sentinel: Eye of Midnight change makes it feel way more threatening and helps secure the Sentinel's "I'm going to sit here and be a problem" identity. Wrath-Lock's Lock-On effect is a nice bonus and makes it a much more threatening ability when paired with the Eye of Midnight change.
• Elite Veteran Sniper: Probably the biggest threat on the map aside from the Cataphract. Not having the auto reload on Moving Target is a little rough, but despite that, only being able to reload on the Sniper's turn did make me think of when to use Moving Target and when to attack in general, which I think is a worthwhile effect since I'm actually having to engage more rather than just autopiloting their turn. As mentioned before, having the Restock Drone on alleviated this anyway which makes NPC combos more important to consider.||

[smoky bluff]

How does flush out work against a slowed character?

[brisk flax]

The same way as Drone Barrage from the Hive does

both instances are involuntary movement

[smoky bluff]

But the archer's can trigger reactions

[brisk flax]

It cannot, no

like, very explicitly it can't

[smoky bluff]

Oh shit, I misread that

[brisk flax]

This has come up before: if involuntary movement can trigger reactions, it's going to have to explicitly say so

and in any case, flush out explicitly says "doesn't proc engagement or reactions"

flush out triggering reactions would be too much of a brainless self-combo

[young laurel]

Dunno how my Ronin+ will do, might run a game later if I finish it later today. The last two Storied Pasts are all that is left to finish.

Ronin's Storied Pasts (Each one swaps its weapon and unique trait)

• Retainer - The standard Ronin, a blademaster capable of pulling off feats with their hypercarbon blade that leave adversaries wondering how the hell did they do that.
• Guard - A very defensive Ronin, capable of performing as a Defender if needed. But is still more than capable of holding its own in fight with its trusty guardian spear.
• Dancer - A risky Ronin, very much preferring to stay in the thick of battle. Being a hard to ignore nuisance capable of disrupting their opponents if not careful using their monofilament ribbons.
• Duelist - A single minded Ronin, focused purely on acquiring that one good battle. Armed with its neosteel sword, it will attempt to force a 1v1 with their chosen Rival, intending on having that legendary battle.
• Smith - An insane forgemaster who has made the very Ronin frame they pilot. Often using their experimental weapon and other various gizmos along with their natural skill to savage opponents.
• Warrior - A veteran in all but name, these Ronins can come from all walks of life. The only thing comparable between two Warrior archetype Ronins is that they are each unique in their own way. (Warriors can take any choice from other Storied Pasts + their own Unique Trait)

Probably complicating the Ronin's simple deal of "I have sword. I sword good." but I came this far now.

[brisk flax]

I can respect the unaccountable urge to take a single thing and massively complicate it

[young laurel]

The urge, it is too great.

My hope is that my Ronin+ will be an interesting enemy to come across and not overtuned/overpowered

When I saw the Ronin's description of how they are usually made and used in Lancer lore. My brain immediately went.

"Hey, let's see how far we can roll with that."

Then it spiraled into this. Paine.

[errant needle]

So random thing that came up as an interaction that my players ended up bypassing but was one I wasn't sure of. If Ferrous Lash flings an ally out of the FASCAM minefield, does that trigger the explosion per the "attempt to move while within it" clause? Or does Ferrous Lash's "does not trigger engagement or reactions" clause supersede that?

[brisk flax]

engagement and/or reactions have nothing to do with fascam any more than they do with flames left on the ground by a plasma thrower

it's not engagement based, nor is it a reaction

I can adjust the wording slightly to be more like the iskander's deathcloud which uses "make any movement," but ultimately being made to move within a fascam field, voluntarily or involuntarily, will proc it

though it can only proc for any given character 1/round (the first time etc)

[errant needle]

Mm-hmm. I was thinking that was the case since it's not cited as a reaction in the text, but figured since it came up as a discussion point with my group, it might be useful to mention. No description is going to be 100% clear to 100% of players ever, but it's the first major confusion point that's come up with our group using the rebakes. Which I will absolutely attribute to it being everyone's first game with Lancer in general.

[brisk flax]

Basically it's the same as with mines

they don't care how you get into the triggering area, just that you do

"involuntary movement into a thing that hurts you" is a cornerstone of the seeder

[errant needle]

I will note the Rebake Seeder is feeling a lot more fun to use than the corebook one felt like for reasons mentioned in the design notes of making them an active combatant vs. "sit at the back playing minecraft", so positive outcome on that.

[young laurel]

So far. Retainer is quite fierce, doesn't feel too oppressive but it is a clear danger. Dancer there still isn't a whole lot of info on that one yet.

Gonna probably test Guard and Duelist next tbh.

[carmine idol]

out of curiosity, have you fielded opfors entirely made of various ronins yet? xD

[young laurel]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm. Very interesting suggestion.

All six Pasts fight very differently.

Retainer is standard Ronin "I sword good. Everyone gets it."

Guard is "This is my Lord. Attack them while I am near at your own peril.

Dancer is "I'll be with your team messing with your positioning."

Duelist is "You. Yes you. I only want you. Our battle will be legendary!"

Smith is "Hey want to see a magic trick?" Straps IED to weapon and swings it at air to detonate it.

Warrior is the only one that won't fit since that Past can just mix and match weapons and traits/systems from the other Pasts.

I shall make a Super Sentai Team of Ronins in the future. :p

[indigo oasis]

is there a place where we can see their stats?

[young laurel]

I'll post them later.

[blissful lion]

Aegis heat gain on misses has been a little bit tough to remember to mark sometimes, but has been good fun for the hacker to deal a ton of heat pressure. Skyhammer on SR combat 3 was nice, much prefer it to the javelins. It doesn’t need to be deployed in a free space, right? If so I might have ran it wrong, but it was good to place on the sentinel with melee PCs on them to force movement and proc overwatch (that missed ;-; )

[brisk flax]

It doesn't need to be deployed in free spaces no

The timing on it is such that doing so will lock on to characters but won't damage them unless they don't leave

So it's a roundabout lock on method with some additional threat, is how I look at it

Combining it with a sentinel like that is 200% intended play

You can even have the sentinel eat the lock if you want

(and hey, missing with a sentinel just means it's reliable damage time, look at that)

[blissful lion]

Oh, I forgot about the reliable! Would have done tons more damage to the PCs, maybe just as well, it was a tough fight already

The sentinel doesn’t eat lock on tho since it says hostile, right?

Oh, as in consume when attacking

[brisk flax]

Remember the ABCs of rebake NPCs:
Always
Be
Consuming Lock On

[wanton maple]

"If the NPCs are putting Lock-on on us, they must have some really nasty abilites based off it."

--My Players while I was testing the Rebakes

[brisk flax]

I've touched on this obliquely with the the various accuracy adjustments across the board, but one of my goals with the rebake on a broad structural level was to break the dynamic of "skirmish + invade" being the best default NPC turn because Lock On is often superfluous with that much floating accuracy

Now you have to decide more between "do I want to do the skirmish + invade thing" or "do I want to use lock on to buff my buddy's chance to-hit/proc some sweet ability"

There's always been a lot of talk about what to do with generic NPC invades, are they too prevalent, is it too strong or just fine, should only certain NPCs get it, etc

Without wanting to change the rules for basic NPC actions, my approach to this is essentially to refactor NPC to-hit averages and build in more lock on synergies

[indigo oasis]

I wonder if the "skirmish + invade" issue is more prevalant at higher tiers, because at lower tiers with the To Hit values I normally sport I need every bonus I can get

[brisk flax]

I don't know if there's any sort of statistical breakdown of it, but my take is that even at Tier 1 a lot of NPCs have pretty good to-hit values and also pretty decent to average systems scores and so the impetus to use lock on is less in general

it's not that I think lock on in CRB NPC land is worthless, but I do think there's not a ton of push to go for it over something like an invade (or boosting if you need to)

there probably IS a degree of perceptual bias from GMs that are hard in the paint for that sort of skirmish+invade thing being "the best," but I don't think it's one that people have necessarily arrived at dishonestly

[indigo oasis]

If the logic behind "invade is better because most attacks come with high/scaling accuracy", then I think scaling would affect the Invade vs Lock On ratio because, again, accuracy scaling is slightly common in the CRB

DIsregard that I'm pretty sure it's just the cataphract

[brisk flax]

I mean, to-hit scaling is very common in the CRB but I confess I'm still unclear about the point being made

and in general, NPCs have a pretty generous baseline to-hit on average per tier

like, tom himself has noted that this is perhaps excessive

there's a reason wallflower NPCs have substantially lower average to-hit values

[indigo oasis]

It's more just wondering about the... thing, there's no good word for it, because outside of this thread I don't hear a lot about "Invade + Skirmish", and I presume that's because a lot of GMs tend to play in tier 1

[brisk flax]

I mean I'm not hooked up to The Pulse of Lancer but this was very very common stuff being talked about in the GM channel et al for a while

"am I being an asshole by constantly using generic invades, there's no reason for me NOT to do it"

[indigo oasis]

Reasoning behind the issue popping up there it is

[brisk flax]

and lots of arguments about "well if I choose not to do it, aren't I sandbagging?" etc

[indigo oasis]

Nah yeah I don't disagree it's a problem- I'm simply presuming that if I haven't heard much about it then there must be something abnormal about my own experiences, hence why I was thinking about it

[brisk flax]

idk about abnormal

[indigo oasis]

Like slightly abnormal

Nothing major

[brisk flax]

I think it's something that probably varies, and I would guess a good number of lancer GMs don't do it BUT I would also assume a lot of those GMs aren't doing it because they simply aren't thinking in terms of like "NPC action optimization"

I don't want to sound like I'm being disparaging, but I think a lot of people do not engage with games as deeply as people who spent, say, a lot of time on a discord server talking about said game

[indigo oasis]

I do spend a lot of time on the Discord server talking about said game tho but I understand

[brisk flax]

and so it's up in their air if they abstain from such because they feel it somehow isn't an optimal use of their turns, or if they aren't doing it because they simply aren't thinking about "oh yeah the assault can hack guys can't they"

[indigo oasis]

And yeah, even if the effects are fundamentally different (damage vs control), 2 attacks is better than 1 now that I think about it

[brisk flax]

it's also just that even limited to 2 heat per hack, with EVERY NPC contributing and a lot of PC heat caps having greater variance than NPC heat caps, it's not hard to start blowing someone's reactor out

like sure, they're shitty little invades, but NPCs outnumber PCs on average and so you can (if you're inclined) just bury them beneath the weight of 2 heat packets

[indigo oasis]

My thought process behind action efficiency has been "the enemies greatest power against the players is action quantity, and that can be removed- maximize attrition by dealing as much damage as possible and focusing on action quality over quantity, because they'll die soon so every action could be their last."

But also. Invade is a defensive tool if it hits (+1 difficulty to all attacks = less likely to get hit). So like... yeah why haven't I been doing that?

[brisk flax]

On a broader fundamental "if I ran the circus" level, I'm not sure I think "generic invade" should be a thing open to all NPCs forever

I like ram, I like grapple, but invade in the current dynamic is something I think suffers from being universalized in a way that forces GMs to have to make weird cutting-the-baby-in-half decisions

[indigo oasis]

Worldbuilding wise it's nice the NPCs can mirror the players in as many ways as they can

Mechanics wise yeah it can get messy

[indigo oasis]

Tbh I often use my spare actions on neither Lock On nor Invade- mainly just boosting, ramming, and hiding. That could be my problem for why my NPCs keep dying so fast

[blissful lion]

Maybe certain NPCs need to consume lock on to invade 🤔

[indigo oasis]

You could probably rework a lot of Lancer by requiring all tech attacks consume Lock On

I’m not saying it’d be good but you could probably do it

[brisk flax]

I think that, on the PC end, the ubiquity and ease of invades is a good thing

I think that it's fundamentally a strength of the game that players have the breadth of actions available to them that they do

NPCs live in a different world and aren't subject to the same dynamics, though even there I think I would myself simply go "some of these guys don't get generic invades, only certain NPCs do"

[plucky patrol]

I'm not sure the ubiquity of invades for PCs is particularly healthy for the game either actually, but for a very different reason

the more I've thought about it the more I think each invade should just be a bespoke quick tech with their own extra benefits instead of literally all of them dealing 2 Heat at base

[blissful lion]

I think it works from an ease of use and rule efficiency point of view, but I see your point.

[brisk flax]

That's a bit of an orthogonal level to things I think, the dynamics of "offensive heat" and whether that's something worth preserving

I think, to me, it's valuable that everyone in lancer from LL0 with zero necessary investment can cast Fragment Signal

you do not have to spend a resource to do it or take a feat or spec into Hacker Guy, everybody can do this thing

[plucky patrol]

oh I def think that should be preserved, I'm more thinking about this in terms of like

do either of the Horos1 options need to be dealing heat on top of what they already do?

I think decoupling invades from the current framework would be much better for hacking diversity

[brisk flax]

like I said, that's a different sort of thing that I'm talking about, which was in response to the idea of "what if making a tech attack required consuming lock on"

and I think that would be bad for the game

[plucky patrol]

oh I missed that context yeah

I just saw

I think that, on the PC end, the ubiquity and ease of invades is a good thing
and it triggered my neurons lol

[brisk flax]

I think that hacking is both A). point and click and B). everyone, even the newest of new characters, can do so, is a big strength of lancer, but I also (to loop it back to this channel's raison d'etre) think that this is LESS necessary on the NPC end

that is, I think it's good that PCs have a robust suite of actions available to them

I do not think NPCs need that same degree of breadth

and in fact, I think it would probably be better if NPCs were even more condensed, pared down, etc, in some places

[blissful lion]

multi-attack invade, I see where this is going, mhm.

[bold crystal]

I think the thing that stands out the most to me is NPCs with negative system scores still being able to invade - they're clearly not supposed to, since NPC invades scale with systems, but -1 doesn't really actually do anything to discourage that.

[blissful lion]

I used invades a lot when my NPCs missed their shots, so they wanted to change their strategy. Players didn't really like it and said that I need to 'shoot monks' more because they were playing nelsons and IPS-N stuff. To me it made logical sense that if they've been missing their shotguns for the past 2-3 rounds they'd try and fuck the PCs over in different ways, but I did get into a bit of an invade + skirmish rhythm there.

Now I'm a little terrified to invade PCs and after being a player more... yeah it's not really as fun I guess. Lock on is less hassle and quicker anyway

[brisk flax]

the rebake admittedly doesn't directly address this dynamic because I'm not really looking to touch on things like the NPC available actions pool

so you can still spam invades all day long and nothing really stops you

the nudge, so to speak, is that lock on is now more rewarding or, depending on how you look at it, more necessary

if you want to shoot a sniper's AMR at +2 accuracy without a mark ahead of time then someone needs to toss you a lock or an equivalent thereof

[neon blaze]

thats kind of been my thought in the end as well, yeah, especially after running some of Sxoa's unique NPC invades - Invade should probably be treated much the same way as "this NPC has a sword" or "this NPC helps its allies" and delegated more as a role thing

and honestly, i've been kind of running Invade recently under that assumption - that one or two NPCs in the encounter are the fuckers who found the Invade button on their terminal

it both helps the heat pacing better but also means players can kind of catch on to going ons and go "this fucker uses tech and that could be a problem"

rather than Berserker Guy being able to just pocket sand whenever it feels like it

NPCs already are very contained, internalized kits, and i don't think going one step further with that is a bad thing

[brisk flax]

yeah

like if I wanted to save layout/pagespace then rather than make "Hacker" a trait or whatever, I would do it like "any NPC that has an asterisk next to their Systems stat can use the Generic Invade Action on page XX"

and then give that to, idk, 5-10 NPCs maybe

[neon blaze]

right - i've leaned towards not just the tech-savvy NPCs like Mirage and Hornet but also typical controllers like Seeder being good candidates for that

[brisk flax]

Seeder's a good one yeah

[neon blaze]

i could make some arguments for some of the damage dealers like, i dunno, Operator maybe seeing dickery is in their ballpark anyway, but i'm not so drawn towards the larger striker roster ultimately

[brisk flax]

the Seeder in Winter Scar's opening fight is set up to work like that for a reason

[neon blaze]

i could maybe argue Assassin could be a good one seeing it does have an innate save in its kit

but otherwise the other strikers feel more contain to wanting to shoot/stab things than trying to be fancy

even Spectre is very straight forward

[twin reef]

There's only one reason why I want the Operator to have invades.

[prime urchin]

Can Juggernaut clear a condition by giving you impaired if you're already impaired ? RAW yes but I'd rather know intent just in case.

[indigo oasis]

yes, in fact it's intended

[prime urchin]

oo nice

[indigo oasis]

An ultra with impair either gets a free condition clear or has to suffer a different effect to get rid of impaired

If you build for attack rolls Impair w/ the rebaked NPCs can be dangerous

An Aegis or a more save based NPC won't care tho

[trail pivot]

on the topic of invades, I ran the treatment of if the npc doesn't have the controller type then it can't benefit from a positive systems score when invading, the best it can hope for is 0, as my own take on the subject of npc invades and also giving npcs things to do ™️

[young laurel]

Interesting take on it really. I might just adopt that myself really.

However due to certain systems and tech attacks being part of other NPCs not a controller, I might have to hold on that thought for another time. Especially since I'm also joining the bandwagon of Core NPC modification.

Of which both Maria's Alternative and Kai's Rebake have a lot of interesting ideas that I'm definitely either yoinking or taking inspiration from.

Aegis is next and I have weirder ideas for that boyo.

[prime urchin]

In the middle of a combat using Valk's NPCs and the rebaked Ultra and Veteran.
Not much to say on the Veteran that hasn't already been said (good shit), but the Ultra. Oh man the Ultra. Love it.
New Juggernaut is great at making Ultra susceptible to control effects, so much so I ended up being better off stabilizing an exposed despite having Superior reactor, and I love that for my players. Also, Superior reactor is great, and the Hyperdense Blade is amazing. Hot damn does it do work. Granted, I did put it on a class that can take full advantage of it, sure, but still. Great having knockback, love the threat 2, and the damage seems both significant and fair.
I'm never going back to CRB Ultra, not after tasting this (except maybe some optionals, but even then...). Amazing work on it.

[young laurel]

Probably will post the shenanigans I did with the Ronin here later. (Probably will have to make a Notepad file for it)

[brisk flax]

I'm curious to know the build

Hyperdense blade hasn't come up much since the last pass on it

[rose hamlet]

Prism is a Defender/Artillery that places a marker that lets it occupy the marker's space for holding objectives/etc. It has resistance against attacks made through the Marker. Overall the marker has (unintentional, convergent design) Suldan Ibeji energy.

Otherwise, it has a gun that pseudo-blinds enemies it hits (can only draw LOS to the Prism until end of its next turn).

Frankly I'm surprised hyperdense blade worked well on it since I intended it to be an off-artillery...

[plucky patrol]

can it make attacks thru the Marker?

[rose hamlet]

yes

hang on

[plucky patrol]

if I had to guess thats probably why, being able to attack from two positions seems like it'd make double damage mode extra spicy

[rose hamlet]

PDF's free in #1254229800952922193 if you want an easier read

[plucky patrol]

ok yeah I feel like in this case it probably has less to do with the Prism's normal rangeband than it does the ability to functionally attack from 15 spaces away while in HB's double damage stance

(with the caveat of course that I was not in this playtest so my analysis may be totally off base lol)

[brisk flax]

everybody loves being in two places at once

[indigo oasis]

me looking at the IGF Parallel
me looking at the Enhanced Combat Legionnaire
me looking at the Frontline NPC Pack Platoon
me looking at the Suldan Conscripts
me looking at the Mirage
me looking-

[bold crystal]

everyone loves it. two places at the same time

[rose hamlet]

Sometimes it can be three places, as a treat

[young laurel]

Perhaps even four, if you are daring.

[rose hamlet]

Prism progresses only to three, as ordained by Monty Python

[simple juniper]

But can it be two permanently? Or can it only be two when progressing to three?

[prime urchin]

Y'all got it, it works great with the projector. Also, threat 2 combos well with the burst 2 prifile of the diffraction beam, so that's not nothing.

[prime urchin]

Also, the stance doesn't double damage does it ? I only see +1acc and double knockback personally.

[plucky patrol]

this is what the PDF in the google folder has

[prime urchin]

Huh

Not the one I had when I parsed this thread trying to find something.

Also, not the one in my lcp

Hold on, searching it up

[bold crystal]

double damage(and the google drive in general) is outdated

[prime urchin]

I'm on version 1.4 and it looks like this, and same thing in my C/C using version 1.18.2. of the lcp

[prime urchin]

that'd do it

[plucky patrol]

I see

[carmine pendant]

i don't know if someone has asked this before but are we going to get rebakes of the wallflower npcs?

[rose hamlet]

Not in the cards, save for the off-the-cuff Avenger rebake waaaaaaay upthread

[smoky bluff]

Somebody should make a lcp out of that

Hm

[smoky bluff]

there we go, it has the dependandies like the rebake core npcs so you will need the NRFaWF lcp to load it

[indigo oasis]

Thank you <3

[smoky bluff]

wait there is a bit of an error

[smoky bluff]

yeah i can't believe i let so many errors in

there shouldn't be anymore errors but hey, if you do spot one, feel free to tell me about it

[wanton maple]

Is firebreak shield's "when an attack is made against a character benefiting from this cover, roll 1d6. On a 4+, that attack misses." ability apply to tech attacks as well?

[bold crystal]

tech attacks ignore cover and thus characters cannot 'benefit from this cover' against them; no.

[brisk flax]

correct

[young laurel]

Probably going to be illegible to read like this but screw it. Made it a Json file so you don't have to download it and just read it here.

Also yeet

[smoky bluff]

played a game of Lancer Commander with the Rebake

3 veteran rainmaker was a huge pain in the ass

It hurts because my opponet was rolling so well on his overcharge shots too

while the Operator rolled a 5 while doing an overload shot and fucking died after being exposed

[young laurel]

Rough

[smoky bluff]

blackwall too so line of sight was block as my npcs had to make through the combat zone to engage, but my forces were built to fight close range so we definitely could've turned the tides if things were different

got my operator and Cataphract to flank on round 3 but both of us lost track on who went first. I could've saved the operator dammit

[oak acorn]

While Lance Commander is obviously not normal gameplay, I feel it's worth mentioning that when teambuilding, all the usual suspects for nasty combos I tend to go for when building teams like this, are gone. I won here, but then mostly just because of the oppressiveness of an artillery-heavy comp with LoS-blocking tools

[smoky bluff]

if there was an objective to focus on i could possibly cinch a win but in terms of absolute killing power, artillery is king

[rose hamlet]

There’s a quote from Stars Without Number: Starvation Cheap:

If you want to make an enemy run, you use infantry. If you want to make them hide, you use armor. If you want to make them paranoid, you use air strikes. And if you want to make them dead, you use artillery.

I think that fight illustrates just how strong Arcing can be, though, at a systemic level

[oak acorn]

For sure, as soon as Kukri got in range their units were sitting ducks until they got behind the shield

[rose hamlet]

unrelated to the rebakes, it's just kinda vindication for my Arcing houserule (i.e., you only get the benefit of arcing if you have an ally who has line of sight of your target)

[bold crystal]

...I think the restriction on the seeder's Speed Deployers works kind of weirdly

like, if you deploy three mines and one blows up, you get the ability to deploy three again and replace the old ones

and if you deploy three, then on a later turn lay mines and replace one of the existing ones, you also get the ability to deploy three again(because Lay Mines says when you do that the one you're replacing 'disarms' which is the trigger for Speed Deployers to reactivate)

to be clear I don't think it should be unrestricted but I feel the current restriction works in an odd way when it could be as simple as 'you can't use this two turns/rounds in a row' or something

[brisk flax]

I think what the actual solution here is is to remove "disarmed" from the recharge trigger condition of speed deployer

that's not an intended interaction

or, alternately, "disarmed by a hostile character"

[bold crystal]

yeah that's fair

it could also be something like 'you can't use this feature if you have three mines deployed' which makes deploying two mines with it a little more appealing, but idk if it actually needs that - the condition just struck me as weird once I thought about it

[brisk flax]

basically the condition is "you don't get this back until someone fucks with one of your mines"

[bright crown]

Elite extrudite barricade on a map with narrow corridors

Fortnite

I had a lot of fun running them, the printing not being a protocol makes me so happy

Operator having to expose itself meaningfully to attack is also nice

The reliable being very sparse makes the op unique in a way

[supple leaf]

Likely planning to run SOTW with Rebake NPCs (+ some of the other recommended NPC supplements like Reconus Squads), though I'm wondering:

1. does anyone know of any GMS flavored player supplements? the module comes with LL0-LL1, which is what I myself would prefer to run as a first time GM, but my players have expressed a desire to start at LL2, so I'm looking to maybe offer to add new things to keep a LL0 run fresh for those that want it.
2. would that playtest data still be valuable, or would it be less so if I'm mixing supplements? Usable playtest data is probably something I'll prioritize overall

[sour mist]

1. I think the Lost Catalogue is generally neat amd has a bunch of cool GMS options in it, although I will say that if I were to offer it to my players I wouldn't let them have the Heavy Shotgun (too good) and or the Rune Suite (too... weird for a GMS system).

[brisk flax]

So the Field Guide to Suldan has some GMS stuff, in the form of a suite of additional weapons and three core bonuses. Maria's GMS Crisis Catalogue also has some weapons as well as systems and a new GMS frame, the Denali, which is support focused

I think that playtest feedback using some homebrew player side stuff is fine since the streams don't cross as much, though of course it may alter certain things (i.e. there might be some homebrew gear that makes this or that NPC play out differently in response, but it should be easy enough to figure out what might be causing any discrepancies

[supple leaf]

alright, thank you!

The only other supplement I'd plan to use is Reconus Squads, for only one combat anyways

[indigo oasis]

Crisis Catalog is the most well know GMS supplement i think

[ebon trench]

Production Group 4 iirc

Dawnmon (NukeCav <3) ↩️

[Reply to:](#1334655875679260692 message) Likely planning to run SOTW with Rebake NPCs (+ some of the other recommended NPC supplements like R…

Big gms heavy supplement that also has its own new tags for some weapons and systems

[sharp mirage]

Reading the Seeder and I think the omnidirectional push is kind of weird, because seeders already simulate that in a way with blast weapons causing knockback from the center of the blast

I think PCs should be rewarded if they know a seeders range and intentionally hang out around the edge of it so they can’t be pushed into a mine by clever attack positioning, making the seeder come to them in a way

I think this makes it too free

[vale crescent]

Now mines are visible, a player should not stand next to an environmental or proximity effect or mine within range of a seeder. Like that's on them... additionally having it shove Any way rather than knockback due to the nature of blasts is effectively a range increase of 2 against a single target. Considering a seeders proximity based nature that's about a range band it won't operate at anyway. What IMo is more important is the knock in any direction is much better at CC multiple targets, for example it could launch 2 characters into the blast into the same danger

I like the omnidirectional push

[sharp mirage]

Then we disagree

Also surprised that Chain didn’t receive an end condition like when you target another character with it because multiple chains on the field can be so crippling to any PC comp without a support with PEBCAC, especially because it seems like one of the goals of this rework is to make intentional unoptimized play less common

This is also more feasible with any Veteran Witch now that they all have Limitless built in

Bespoke grunts are cool

[rose hamlet]

I don’t know, every time I’ve used Chain using CRB Witch, my players do their cool thing and then play the objective

[sharp mirage]

My final note: I’m kind of sad that Shepard Field is gone off of Engineers, it’s an interesting combo piece paired with barricades (and the new Demolisher earthshatter) and with the turret changes I understand why it’s gone, I am still saddened it wasn’t reworked in some way

[delicate dawn]

i ran all rebake NPCs for an encounter recently, and my takeaways are thus;

• the ace still feels like it doesn't do anything, particularly at tier 1; the minor nerf to its base weapon, while cool, feels undeserved, and being able to survive what usually amounts to 1 big hit per combat doesn't really make it scary. i will appreciate that running it into a comp of 3 players with 2, 2, and 1 armor might not be playing to its strengths but it just feels so pathetic for a striker.
• the breacher was pleasantly scary. i always thought the base game breacher was kind of a do-nothing enemy and reading the pdfs i thought it would be even worse but this had me re-evaluating how scary even the base game breacher was. as for rebake specifics i like the new painmaker, not having to deal with strange initiative tracking is nice
• god bless this new operator 0 notes i can finally feel good about running operators
• demolisher drag cables are very fun. they amounted to absolutely nothing in the scene but they were scary and that is enough. i didn't actually get to play with any of the other new demolisher toys so i will be coming back to it
• the hornet just died, i made it an elite and it died in the first round, thank you nanocomp HMG (new umbral interdiction was cool utility, adding the extra layer of impairment deterministically is fun)

[orchid ledge]

rebake breacher gang

what a mech!

[delicate dawn]

i also straight up did not use the breacher to do any breacher things because my blackbeard got in there frame 1 and it was just a better use of time to shoot him forever

that guy got double structured and got so close to eating a scout's orbital bombardment too, good times

[rose hamlet]

Having used a rebake Breacher: love the breach ram. Great for punching holes, did that on a holdout

[smoky bluff]

What exactly about the operator was so good about it?

[prime urchin]

You can send more than one/templated ones without instantly killing everyone.

[smoky bluff]

Lol that is very true

[prime urchin]

Also there is actual and meaningful counterplay against them now

[rose hamlet]

Knowing mekaloton’s perspective would be useful as I attempt to setup another Operator playtest on a map that isn’t ass

[smoky bluff]

What counter-play exactly?

Is it just beating it up?

[prime urchin]

Running, cover

It's got reliable, sure, but a miss is still less damage

With less range and no 2 flat accuracy, those things matter now

And also just beating it up yes, because now it has to get (somewhat) close to attack

[smoky bluff]

Has to do what exactly?

Get close?

[prime urchin]

Yes, closer than before at least

(I re-read my message and it was very unclear, should be better now)

[brisk flax]

The Ace is an AoE striker, not a single target striker, and its base damage is calculated accordingly as lancer gives AoE weapons comparatively lower damage versus single target attacks, to account for multiple targets being hit. This is just as true in the CRB version as the rebake. So yes, running against an armored comp will have more of an effect against it. The rebake Ace has two damage dealing optionals if you want it to have more offensive punch, though again, everyone having armor is going to blunt this

[rose hamlet]

Armor is also most potent at T1 where 1 armor = 25% damage reduction on an Ace, compared to T2 where it’s only ~16.7% damage reduction

But armor’s (lack of) scaling is a dead horse

[young laurel]

Piloting thicc lads (Armor bois) is still a good bit of damage cut off. Even if just a tad bit.

[subtle nacelle]

did base archer have so much reliable? went up against a vet and a reg archer yesterday and it felt great getting wacked around. The counterplay was just "kill that guy" and the Reliable 3 eventually took off like 3 structures total. Pretty cool stuff

i was a player for that

[young laurel]

Always had that.

Also I am very much contemplating on renaming Assassin's Heated Blade to "London Bin Knife"

[brisk flax]

Yep, archer reliable has always been that way

[subtle nacelle]

t'was a cool fight

[bitter lava]

Yeah, Archers are generally the masters of Reliable damage

[vale crescent]

I endorse this

[sharp mirage]

On page 9 I think

"and so I think Seeking is
redundant and encourages a playstyle, which is why I removed it. I don't particularly favor for the Ace."
Should instead read
"and so I think Seeking is
redundant and encourages a playstyle, which I don't particularly favor for the Ace. So I removed it."

[brisk flax]

I think I already caught that in the current draft, the sentence got dragged out of alignment during a pass

(the draft I am working on, not the current public draft)

[sharp mirage]

Gotcha!

I can very easily see how that happened

(I did search to make sure this didn't get brought up before I'm glad I didn't miss it)

I also think on page 28 when discussing Deathcounter it should read (Though this one is far less pressing)

"assuming that it only breaks if the Bastion
would take damage, instead of simply being hit with an attack"
Should read
"assuming that it only breaks if the Bastion
would take damage, instead of simply being hit with a ranged or melee attack"

Because the former reads like you can tech attack to get rid of Deathcounter, but also its simple enough to just, check the real rules text so this one is kind of preference on my part

[delicate dawn]

it just feels much nicer to run this enemy against the players without its weapon dealing 7 damage with infinite range and infinite accuracy at the starting tier of the game, and i'm sure it will feel even nicer to do so at higher tiers knowing i'm not multiplying its damage

with its range nerf the operator now actually has to get in the game to access its extremely privileged weapon, and reliable is a nice thing to throw in for its new troubles (theoretically anyways because my guy did not miss)

[subtle nacelle]

I want you to know i think about this message at least once a week

[raw prairie]

This is how I think about you

[subtle nacelle]

I love this wtf

[solid pilot]

JOVIAL MERRYMENT

[indigo oasis]

If I gave a rebake ultra a homebrew template + optional that incurred Danger Zone benefits and separately incurred Exposed benefits (granting the ability to Expose itself as a protocol when in the danger zone) but if it has both then there’s even more benefits, what would be funnier:

1. Superior Reactor to instant clear the Exposed and heat off turn
2. Superior Frame to start of turn take enough heat to enter the Danger Zone

For the sake of not making things too stupid (and optional trait budgets), only one is allowed

[raw prairie]

Danger zone I’d say

[indigo oasis]

So Superior Frame?

[raw prairie]

Allows for heat gunners some exclusive power against this interpretation

So frame yeah

[indigo oasis]

That’s what I thought, reactor seemed too mean

Plus as a Supreme Melee Berserker it’s gonna output and take like… a lot of damage in very little time

The idea is “it dies very fast. It also kills just as fast”

[raw prairie]

Burn twice as bright yeah

[indigo oasis]

(The template is HA from this pack btw, in case folks are curious. Spark Munitions and Limit Breaker are the planned optionals for this Tokugawa sim: https://cornylius.itch.io/manufacturer-templates)

Putting Superior Reactor on that kind of monster would just be cruel tbh

Although it does make exposed a lot easier to reach. Without it it’d take 2 turns w/ 2 QA’s (w/o limitless) of building heat to reach that explosive level.

[raw prairie]

Fascinating stuff

[indigo oasis]

If it ever starts its turn prone or grappled, it can use Juggernaut to try and clear the condition, take 4 heat, and while the condition is reapplied the Ultra is now in Danger Zone at the start of its turn

Allowing it to immediately use nonsense protocols

It’s immensely high risk but immensely high reward

[young laurel]

Funni Assassin trait brain wants

[brisk flax]

anyway those of you who've backed Lancer Tactics probably already know this, but the designers reached out and asked if they could use elements of the rebake project for their own game

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/wickworks/lancer-tactics/posts/4379409

They'll be using, specifically, the rebake NPCs, the veteran template, and the ultra template (they may make some adjustments to these as needed), but not alternate structure/stress rules or bespoke grunts

[surreal zenith]

oh shoot

very exciting

[supple leaf]

oh wow

[smoky bluff]

wow indeed

tbh the veteran and Ultra templates do add so much for both templates

[brisk flax]

olive seems very positively inclined about them

she may also draw on some other outside/third-party elements such as some stuff enhanced combat does to more formalize the nature of objectives like escort payloads etc

[young laurel]

Naisu

[chilly rock]

Can a Sentinel with Eye of the Storm use its sword against a target other than the character who triggered Overwatch?

[brisk flax]

Following the PC rules for overwatch and multiple weapons (i.e. skirmishing with an Aux/Aux or Main/Aux setup) seems most sensible, which means the answer would be yes

You MUST attack the target with the weapon overwatch was procced with, any additional weapons which happen to follow from that do not have to be directed at the overwatch-ee

[errant needle]

I saw that and it makes a lot of sense especially since a game AI is a merciless machine that will kill us all with scaling multi attacks. 😄

[twilit coral]

3x multi attack and +10 to hit ronin:

[bold crystal]

oooooo

[surreal zenith]

yooooo

[young laurel]

NPC Art? Ah hell yeah

[brisk flax]

It is specifically the cover

As I'm paying out of pocket for this one, I'm looking to keep expenses fairly constrained, and with NPCs there's always a temptation to go all-out with art, but frankly I can't afford to do so

Peyton will be illustrating the cover and I'm going to look into having it laid out, but beyond that I don't expect there to be additional art

(art also takes time and I dislike putting strict deadlines on artists when possible, but I don't want this to be stuck in limbo)

(also, it would be VERY unrealistic to have even a half dozen out of 30 NPCs illustrated to this spec)

For the cover I opted for the noble Assault since it's their fault this whole thing happened in the first place

[potent jasper]

the classic of assuming assault is just "the basic guy". very glad to see the rebakes and how its been coming along

[brisk flax]

Peyton and I did a lot of Gundam inspired work for solstice rain and winter scar, the G-Type Everest is a clear homage to Jesta/Jegan designs, and the iconic Bullfrog nee C-66 Kompra has a lot of the Dom in it among other things, so this time we wanted to look elsewhere for visual references, and we settled on something more reminiscent of Shoji Kawamori's work on Armored Core

This was actually one of the references I sent to Peyton, it's an artbook that came with the soundtrack to Armored Core 3: Silent Line

I also would have accepted some Shinji Aramaki in the form of Gasaraki's designs, which I've always quite enjoyed

His stuff is good but Peyton successfully argued that a lot of Aramaki's mech work tends to exist in a realm where when it's not in motion it might seem a bit indistinguishable from power armor, so the more exaggerated Kawamori style designs (smaller torso and longer legs) help sell "this is a MECH" more

That said, the Raiden (the one above) has been a long-time go to for my personal "what does an Everest look like" files

Peyton also knows what people like, which is 80s military system ads

[simple juniper]

the last one with the rainbow goes HARD

[smoky bluff]

bruh why this assault looking all epic like

[brisk flax]

You're only as cool as your opposition

[young laurel]

Harlequin SSC Opfor theme when?

[indigo oasis]

Just ran some stuff w/ rebakes, gonna make some small comments:

• Ronin: Good, I should’ve never doubted it. Only triggered antiprojectile once from the Swallowtail, yet did 20 damage in one hit thanks to it being exposed. Chaff Launchers was a consistent threat too
• Goliath: Coercive Force was great, helped the Ultra get out of a grapple and bring allies closer to the frontline
• Mirage: the inability to teleport really hurt but it’s definitely a deserved drawback
• Hive: Made the mistake when using I believe Grind Maniple? The give someone a razor swarm around them one. Anyway it went away the immediate next turn due to messing up timing. Still, was scary before the realization
• Priest: the Dispersal Shield change was fantastic, no notes
• Ultra: Only differences were from Auto-Repair and Juggernaut, which were used once each. Juggernaut cleared impair for -1 QA, so that was fun, and Auto-Repair rolled max on heat and caused a stress I had to stabilize the expose off of. Had an impact, but I wouldn’t say it made the Ultra more or less deadly by a big margin.
• Veteran: Ronin’s vet trait didn’t come up, but Limitless made everyone so much less deadly. The Ronin was a powerhouse and the Goliath could OC loop and wreck

[brisk flax]

I think the Hive optional you're referring to is Harrier Maniple, but I get you

Grind Maniple is the one that got parted out to the ultra

[indigo oasis]

Yeah it was Harrier Maniple

[errant needle]

After action on a full Rebake "merc crew" OpFor.

NPCs: Veteran Pirate Mirage, Veteran Pirate Demolisher, Veteran Pirate Operator, Veteran Pirate Seeder, Veteran Pirate Deluge (3rd party), Elite Veteran Pilot Goliath

PCs: LL3 Sherman, Black Witch, Tortuga, Lancaster, Swallowtail

Veteran: Beyond the durability increase, Overcharge led to some fun bits of the party kind of cringing every time "OVERCHARGE" showed up in the action log in Foundry. The Deluge ironically had it worst from this as it managed to flub a shot, Overcharge, and flub a second shot, exposing itself for the PCs to wreck shortly after. Rolling a full 6 on heat does that. Fun risk vs. reward when you just want that one more action.

Mirage: Virtual Cover made the entire squad significantly more durable, and made the "can't benefit from soft cover" part of Markerlight on the Swallowtail a lot more noticeable than it normally is compared to "guaranteed crit".

Seeder: One of the standouts, as FASCAM left a field that was a factor going both ways for the entire fight, while the Speed Deployer mines managed to double structure the Tortuga when the Demo KB'd them across all three in a line.

Demolisher: Jet Propulsion allowed for some scary lunges for players, and while neither actually made contact, Drag Cables and Earthshatter both spooked the Swallowtail player that thought they were out of range. They would've eaten a full superheavy hit if not for the Black Witch's deployed plate stopping them cold when they failed the save. Ironically last man standing due to the 2 armor protecting him from a lot of the lighter arms fire while the heavy guns targeted other folks.

Operator: Did pretty good, overall. Got use out of the Line trait to nail both the Tort and the Sherman, and used the Goliath for mobile cover a lot. This did not save it from getting Sherman Core Laser'd because it was between the Sherman and the Mirage. Ironically, the Mirage just Invisible dodged the shot but the Operator got wiped out as it'd eaten a Deck Sweeper earlier to structure it once. Size 4 cover definitely made it harder to pin down when not using the weapon accuracy.

Goliath: Some of my players actually commented on the fact that the higher HP pool made the Goliath beefier in this fight. They had AP and Shred a plenty, but that doesn't actually mean a damn when the Goliath is big ole slab with three structure as an Elite Veteran. Concentrated fire from the whole team brought it down eventually, but it took a Tachyon Lance and a fully 6d6 saturated Black Witch core power to do so.

[valid plaza]

it can't keep getting away with it!!!

[wild quartz]

Question about Ace. Emergency Jettison states that the Aces systems and traits are disabled. Does that include the Missile Swarm since it's sitting under the header of 'Optional Systems' or is it a weapon that survives Jettison?

[brisk flax]

System and Trait are specific game terms

as is Weapon

things that are listed, specifically, in their statblocks as Systems or Traits are disabled

[wild quartz]

thank you.

[brisk flax]

"Optional Systems" isn't using game terminology, it's just "this is what it's called I guess"

[wild quartz]

it's been a while since I played lancer, and wasn't sure. Been playing a lot of 'natural language' stuff.

"It's both I guess!" yay 40 minute interpretations mid session.

[brisk flax]

I think...

yeah emergency jettison even parenthetically specifies (not weapons)

[wild quartz]

is there an updated document? i'm reading right off the google drive

[brisk flax]

check the pins

you want Master Document 1.4 and also there's an lcp github repository

[wild quartz]

noice. Edit: Turbo Noice.

[orchid ledge]

badass

[brisk flax]

Pretty small update, mostly some wording adjustments

[carmine idol]

As ever, thanks for compiling a changelist (❁´◡`❁)

[brisk flax]

I can't imagine not compiling a changelog, I gotta keep track of this stuff too

people who run updates without a changelog are wild (derogatory)

[neon blaze]

yeah i'm unironically glad i started one myself like way way past rather than leaving it until like, now

its just a lot to keep track of

[oak heron]

git commit -m "changed stuff"

[crude trail]

found out about this just this week - i am intrigued and do like a lot of it, but i especially like the design notes and often wish "official" books did more/any of that

cutting out multi-attacks is definitely a very good idea; i've had a certain ultra ronin (ultra veteran champion ronin, actually) sitting about waiting for the end of a wallflower act-2 run, and it scares me a little, enough that i have considered making that a time-bending-fakeout phase

[smoky bluff]

i mean muti attacks isn't exactly bad, it just usually comes at a cost, for the Veterans, to attack again is to overcharge and the breacher is the breacher

[crude trail]

the breacher is a good exception, but the multiattacks don't increase with tier so it's got the same damage scaling as most things (unlike ronins and specters)

and overcharge doesn't count 🙂

[smoky bluff]

idk veteran operators at tier 2 are sort of close to their CRB, except they heat up like crazy now and they don't have the same CRB craziness of attack a total of 4 times with limitless

[crude trail]

are we having a disagreement? i'm not sure i understand lol

[brisk flax]

I mean, with respect, "they only make 2 attacks with overcharging instead of 4" isn't "sort of close"

[smoky bluff]

well i do mean without limitless

[mighty granite]

Has testing seen the rainmaker rebake through?
It just seems a lot more vulnerable (can’t break Los to compensate

I like how it looks I’m just concerned it might die too easily?

Maybe it’s fine

[smoky bluff]

a veteran operator without limitless in the CRB is sort of close to the rebake's operator

[mighty granite]

I wouldn’t know

[brisk flax]

1). Yes
2). I'm not sure what your concern is re: breaking LoS

[smoky bluff]

the trick with the rainmaker is you put it behind a large wall where the players cannot pass through very easily

also cool trick i've come to learn, prepare the skyhammer salvo

use the prepare action with skyhammer salvo for the free damage

[brisk flax]

Missile Pods still have Arcing, Huntsman still gives Seeking, and Hades Missiles still ignore LoS requirements

[smoky bluff]

you won't get the lock on

[mighty granite]

I guess I’m just.. confused on skyhammer needing LOS just because the rainmaker is so fragile

[brisk flax]

Javelin Rockets also need LoS

the rebake Rainmaker lost no "ignore LoS" capability that the CRB version has

[mighty granite]

….. oh I may be stupid

[brisk flax]

everything it had in the CRB that ignores LoS, the rebake version retains

[mighty granite]

Alright that’s my mistake

[smoky bluff]

it just now got less range which is probably why it feels different

losing range hurts

[brisk flax]

broadly, I don't think anyone's returned any rainmaker feedback that's said it's having problems

[smoky bluff]

tbh i do want to try more with the rainmaker now that i've learnt some tricks

[mighty granite]

To be fair I haven’t ran a lot of rainmakers in my life
Only so much lancer to go around

[blissful lion]

Are you trying the rainmaker rn? ;3

[smoky bluff]

yes

[crude trail]

if i use the rebake rainmaker it'll probably just be to steal the skyhammer because javelin rockets rarely accomplish much unless i'm exploiting involuntary movement (which i don't do much, because i don't use their weapon often - i seem to prefer using them as continuous hazard dispensers)

[brisk flax]

yeah javelins exist in a space where as a control hazard they're pretty easy to avoid, as a combo with the missile pods they're a bit thoughtless

[crude trail]

i ... was just comparing the ranges on the rainmaker (both crb and rebake versions) to the monarch and was jumpscared by the monarch-license's own javelin-rockets system; i had completely forgotten this existed

it is amusingly shorter range than the rainmaker one (also much less damage)

if i had someone running a monarch in my party i'd be tempted shorten all the rainmaker ranges to 15 too (except maybe atlas and hound missiles), but just because the discrepancy would irk me were i in the player's shoes

[manic sky]

I ran a rebake Rainmaker and what I learned was "holy shit the Rainmaker has 1 armor?"

and did even in CRB?

like in at least two battles I used CRB Rainmakers in they just left the fight when they couldn't do much else to win the fight

15 range makes them more interactable imo, and if I need longer range there's the Bombard

That's just my imo though.

[mighty granite]

Out of pure curiosity how much playtesting have the rebakes got?
I’d assume a good bit for various reasons

[surreal zenith]

they've been around several months now

playtested pretty actively during that time

[brisk flax]

You can go to the top of this channel and scroll down from there, if you're of a mind to

[crude trail]

having been mulling over some of that myself, I've decided i like rest of the rainmaker's rebake a little more than i thought i did (really it was just the range reduction that was off-putting, at a superficial glance)

(i was completely unbothered by the (non-range) missile pod changes to begin with, so that helped)

but you'll have to tear the seeder's unlimited hidden mines setpiece-action from my cold dead hands
-# i've used it, like, once in 2 years ...

[smoky bluff]

just have mines be part of the map design, who needs seeders?

[simple juniper]

I've run CRB seeders exactly twice, with different groups.

Nobody had fun with them. Even the group I had thrown the 12 Grunt Hornets at found the Hornets more interesting than a measly pair of CRB Seeders.

I have yet to run Rebake Seeder but it definitely looks like both groups' issue with it has been resolved.

[crude trail]

i am aware of my options, and am thus being very unserious about the matter

[errant needle]

Fight's not over yet, but I can say that already there's mostly positive feedback to my players running into an Ultra with Short Cycle Lance.

Mostly in the sense of "after the session ended, I explained how the CRB SCL worked, and their reactions were suitably horrified."

Its first shot hit three PCs (and two grunts purely to line up the shot) and left a definite psychic impression. lol

[solid pilot]

a small thing but thought I should put it out there for when next minor patch comes out- missing space in the pyro rebake

[brisk flax]

https://github.com/Shteb/Kais-NPC-Rebake-LCP/issues might be worth posting it as an issue

[thick mesa]

the CRB seeder is just so fuckin mean

[crude trail]

i haven't had enough chances to use it to confirm that assessment - but i also make sure not to use it meanly

an impenetrable wall of mines is at best a sometimes puzzle /j
-# edit: notably, a seeder starting with mines already deployed is GM-fiat / sitrep shenanigans even with the CRB version, so that's mostly a matter of not being mean on purpose to begin with

but because i've been running one long wallflower campaign for the last few years i've had zero chances to try that particular class out without homebrewing it in (which i didn't want to do quite that severely during act 1) [/slightly off-topic i guess]

[brisk flax]

The CRB seeder is "mean" but it's mean, imo, in a couple of orthogonal ways to like tactical capability, it's one part "shrugging when the players forget where you placed your hidden info mines" and one part "stun mines exist," outside of that I think the seeder performs a bit awkwardly, or rather I think that its performance is tied to things I would not typically design a tactical unit in a game like lancer to do

[bold crystal]

the seeder is honestly a little anemic in core if you let players mark the area where it placed a mine(or do so yourself) - having a visual marker for 'one of these spaces is bad' often narrows down where the mine is actually likely to be. which really hurts the crb seeder. memory games are bad to rely on for mechanical power.

[crude trail]

that's been a consideration the two times I've deployed one

a landmine deployed in combat and where the act can be seen is a lot less of a landmine in effect, in the short term

which is something i don't have much qualms with letting players get around, but letting npcs obfuscate mine laying might be contentious

it also collides a little with actual landmines being genuinely awful things

[bold crystal]

if you were marking the area the rebake seeder sort of threatens fewer spaces but it does so with a bigger mine which is easier to actually force people into. it's just weird to evaluate because crb seeder just kinda says 'lie to your players' and that sucks

[crude trail]

or else continuously remind them to (attempt to) reveal nearby mines as a quick action (could get repetitive)

[brisk flax]

Fundamentally, lancer isn't a game I think benefits from "hidden information," the gameplay purpose of mines isn't to be an unknown threat, it's to be an area denial tool and setup for things like forced movement

[crude trail]

its a valid perspective, but it just makes me wish the crb had done a better job supporting that philosophy if/where it was intended

(it's heavily obfuscated, at best)

[brisk flax]

if you mean the "no hidden info" perspective, the CRB does largely support it, the seeder is an anomaly in that regard

[crude trail]

"promoting" might have been a more appropriate word

essentially, the seeder (even with the "mines are Invisible" typo) actually dispromoted the lack of hidden information elsewhere, like with the hidden status
-# [i could explain more or better what exactly i mean here, but it's late and i also genuinely don't want to be an annoyance about it]

like, on a first-reading situation

(for clarity, i do not run Hidden as a complete lack of information, because i did come to recognize that would be very annoying regardless of my first impressions)

[bold crystal]

the most 'hidden info' the CRB gets is 'what optionals do these npcs actually have', besides the seeder - and to be frank to an extent I think that can also suck, but mostly for options that let you jumpscare your players with bullshit. steel jaw, the whole exotic template that says 'these don't get scanned' which is straight up a terrible design choice imo

[crude trail]

it can be situationally appropriate

themes are important for a good scene and they work best when the rules support them - sometimes that means making something that could otherwise be cruel or aggravating if overused

(and perhaps that's why it's good that exotic is a template and not a generic class)

like, if you had a campaign absolutely full of the fuckers, the player characters and players both would very quickly be due the respect of being allowed to effectively scan them

[bold crystal]

yeah, for sure.

[sharp mirage]

Is Harrier Maniple push then drone swarm? Or is it GMs choice?

[brisk flax]

when a thing has multiple effects on-hit, the person who did the hitting chooses which happens first, though in Harrier Maniple's case I'm not sure the order of operations matters

the pseudo-razor swarm being moved into someone isn't the same as them moving into it

[sharp mirage]

I mean if you swarm then move they’ll start their turn in it and take damage

But they can avoid damage by staying still if it’s move then swarm

Oh wait nevermind there’s no “starts their turn in” condition

[brisk flax]

Well, there is

The Hive releases a swarm of tiny drones and makes a tech attack against a hostile character within Sensors. On a success, the Hive pushes the target up to 2 spaces in a direction of their choice and the drones create a swarming Burst 2 area centered around them that lasts until the end of their next turn. All other hostile characters that start their turn at least partially within the area or move into it for the first time in a round take 2/3/4 burn.

It's just that whether you move the target, then have them emit the swarm, or have them emit the swarm and then move them, the effect is going to end up being the same

like I'm not sure what the perceived difference is in the order of operations here

[sharp mirage]

Bursts don’t affect the original target

There would be a target sized hole in the swarm, right?

[vale crescent]

No, because burst X is within range X of the character, range 0 is in range X. So if there was another character sharing the space with the character they would be effected

[sharp mirage]

I guess

[rose hamlet]

Burst affects the space of the character it’s bursting around, it just sometimes doesn’t affect the source character

[vale crescent]

Actually checking the description of burst it specifically says it occupies the space of the character it occupies

[sharp mirage]

CRB Page 104

(To be clear, I'm agreeing)

I've always just heard "Bursts don't affect the original character" and didn't realize that that was specific to attacks

[smoky bluff]

burst 2 is bigger than blast 2 correct?

or is it the same?

[vale crescent]

Yes if the character is larger than size 1

[smoky bluff]

cuz the scout's orbital strike is burst 2

[vale crescent]

Burst 2 on a point in range IG is just blast 2

[smoky bluff]

does that mean if the scout is a ship its a burst 2 + size 4

[vale crescent]

No because the point of origin isn't the scout

Also rebake says blast 2

[smoky bluff]

huh? ok hang on i need to check again

[vale crescent]

CRB is burst

[vale crescent]

CRB Is just silly like that, and I love it for it

[sharp mirage]

Yeah its, burst 2, within range 20

I think thats a typo?

[vale crescent]

Maybe, but could also not be because it's "from a point" like how all mines are burst not blast

Either way, that's not for this channel. The rebake says blast 2

[sharp mirage]

Because you're also not choosing a character within range 20, and it doesn't make sense in fiction

[sharp mirage]

True yeah

[rose hamlet]

Scout chooses a space. Burst 2 is then around that space. It works out in the end

[brisk flax]

Correct

Mines are a similar thing

You place a mine, it detonates in a burst

[wheat mortar]

loving the rebake seeder paired with hive using driving swarm it has become a small mini-game to not get force moved into the mines

same with goliath using mag gauntlet, great little combo team

[rose hamlet]

love the implicit threat of Drone Barrage + Mines too

[wheat mortar]

right! so it has set up this great choice for the players of "do I rush the objective point and engage the bombard" or "take out the pieces needed to deal with this seeder" sadly the cyclone pulse rifle user went first and just obliterated the aegis before i could set up a safe zone for the seeder to be abit more aggressive with the mine placements

rebaked hive is probably by favorite so far, really like the razor swarm change

[young turtle]

man you know what

hold on

decided working on Lancer Tactics was too much trouble without bookmarks on this again

lmao

Give me a few minutes

1.4 Rebakes with bookmarks

[rose hamlet]

I hate to tell you this but I think v1.5 dropped a few days ago

[young turtle]

Noooooooooo

he didn't pin it

Kai you monster

Uh oh

back in the mines again

not again

Alright

[crude trail]

i'm curious: what do you use for adding bookmarks to pdfs?
(i know one way to do it using LaTeX shenanigans, but i assume there are other ways that might be less janky feeling)

[subtle nacelle]

likely an adobe reader feature

[young turtle]

What I do is I use Affinity Publisher

I open the pdf in there

and then I add in the anchors

which is how you get bookmarks

1.5 Rebakes with bookmarks

[young turtle]

Taking the liberty to pin this, sorry Kai

as payment I accept human sacrifices done in my name

[crude trail]

yeah that's probably much less jank; thanks

[blissful lion]

Also I think someone did 1.4 with bookmarks before 👀

[brisk flax]

When I do bookmarks for Suldan, I use Foxit PDF reader which has a free version that enables minor pdf editing including adding bookmarks

based on what Eld has told me, Affinity is probably easier, but I don't have it/know how to use it

[rose hamlet]

You use OpenOffice yeah? I believe it's possible to just export with PDF bookmarks if you use Headings

just downloaded Apache OpenOffice to figure out how it works and managed it

[young turtle]

I legit just open your pdf in it, select the textbox which it automatically catches, select the text itself

and click on "add anchor"

there's some stuff with nested anchors

but you don't need to worry about that right now

I can go on about affinity nested bookmarks for a while

on larger files its genuinely borderline unnusable

Thankfully this is small

[brisk flax]

oh yeah by the way in case it passed by too quickly: eld is also working on lancer tactics now

[young turtle]

I can show you why hold on

[young turtle]

this is why I couldn't take not having bookmarks

lmfao

[young turtle]

spot the problem

this is after i've nested stuff

as in, dragged stuff into the right nested bookmark stuff

[brisk flax]

oof, auto alphabetization

[young turtle]

Yup

can't remove it

btw

and if you collapse these to make it easier?

they pop back up when you nest anchors

for some reason

they still appear in order tho

[brisk flax]

I love how everything is computer and it all fucking sucks to use

someone should invent a program that works

[young turtle]

the problem with most programs is they're made by programers and not users and i'm not even kidding

[brisk flax]

nodding sagely: ah yes, game design

[young turtle]

Like, I think this is the worst part

there's probably a solution somewhere

but because this program was made by a programer and not like, a casual user

its probably hidden somewhere

[vale crescent]

It's fine, sometimes I feel like there's problems with software because it's made for users and not programmers

[young turtle]

main thing is i'm not a programmer

[vale crescent]

Fair, when I say that I mean stuff like microsoft products or windows updates where they're too handholdy and assume I'm a kid who just got an ipad

(And I also wasn't mostly serious)

[austere compass]

one up hot take: the problem with most programs is that they're on a computer, which is a device invented for fighting nazis and everything that's come since has been us straying further from god (ada lovelace)

(also not serious)

[vale crescent]

Proof of straying from god:

League of legends

[ancient forge]

As a programmer who has tried to make tools for level designers to use, yes, this is a problem. We’re like genies, ya gotta know exactly what you want from us and word it carefully

That or make us use the tools too, but that only helps a little

[plucky patrol]

even then that - yeah thats no guarantee

a programmer who knows where they put everything will have a rather different experience than a user figuiring it out on their own

[subtle nacelle]

programmers designing the most obscure and obtuse CLI tool known to man because it "just works" for them

[bold crystal]

and especially descriptions of tools...

[crude trail]

i have done exactly this despite having been on the other end many times before and since (hello ffmpeg my behated)

as a user, i sure do love a good user interface
as a programmer, i sure do hate coding user interfaces, graphical ones most of all

[subtle nacelle]

yt-dlp is one of the most extensively documented cli tools ive worked with and it's still indecipherable because shell scripting is entirely stringy and god awful

[crude trail]

oof - i've never had more than simple use cases with that one, must have been lucky so far

[smoky bluff]

the barricade's cube deployable in the deployable lcp is missing a space between cube and is

[small hamlet]

So the way I read it, the new way Unstoppable works would interact with grappling in that the grappler would try to move the Ultra, the Ultra would take 1 kinetic damage to ignore the movement, the grappler would break adjacency with the Ultra and thus the grapple would immediately end, protecting the Ultra from any further damage.

Is that correct?

[bold crystal]

as worded that looks correct - note that Unstoppable is optional so it doesn't have to take damage to avoid involuntary movement unless it wants to

[brisk flax]

That's how I would see it. The Ultra can be selective about how much movement it ignores for damage, and ignoring 1 space of movement is all you need when someone tries to force-grapple-move you to break the grapple

So the main change between an Ultra with Unstoppable doing this in the CRB versus the rebake is, essentially, 1 damage

[bold crystal]

that and CRB unstoppable isn't optional at all - rebake unstoppable can go 'let's see where you're going with this grapple drag' before choosing to break it

[brisk flax]

yeah, it's also helpful for ally-force-movement tricks like using Goliath stuff to drag the Ultra around

[wheat mortar]

thank you for the bookmarked .pdf

[pulsar hound]

Hey there - we've got the 1.5 changes up in a new version of the LCP.

[crude trail]

yay!

[indigo oasis]

A rebake Vet Priest with its veteran trait used as a PC ally sounds fun

[proper sand]

I've been considering using Maria's Alternative Structure/Stress tables as well as start including some NPCs from the rebake into my current game. I'm curious if anyone has used the Alternative tables along with the Rebake tables, and/or have an opinion on the pairing?

[subtle nacelle]

It Just Works™️

I've been using them ever since I started working on the LCP a few months ago

[opal folio]

they both work fine together in my experience. the only real interaction i can think of is a small number of rebake features like SCL that charge on structure loss that are slightly buffed by alternate structure

[proper sand]

Cool, thank you both!

My initial concern was around how the overheating table would make elite/veteran/commander NPCs (rebake table) much more likely to become exposed vs PCs/ultras (alternative table). But thinking on it more, the rebake table encourages trying to overheat tougher enemies while also reducing risk of NPC reactor meltdown (since it requires snake eyes), which I think is a plus

[brisk flax]

contextually, the rebake's alternate overheating table is compared to the CRB version, and the CRB overheating table pretty much only has three possible outcomes:
1). Impaired
2. Exposed
3). Meltdown

the main change in that regard is less about new results, which the revised structure table incorporates, and more simply streamlining the already existing results

you have less chance of meltdowns occurring, but exposed is sufficient to make up for that in terms of "this kills the NPC" imo

[spice aspen]

so I wasn't sure where to ask about this or if I should just DM Kai, um... I have been throwing together a personal foundry module that contains an automation implementation for the structure rules in the rebake, just since the base lancer system for foundry only uses its own rules. currently it's using the latest draft, naturally. and I had the thought to publish that module in case it seemed useful for others but I wanted to check first if that was like -- is that something I should avoid? would it be preferred that I keep this kind of thing purely for personal use? if it's kosher to publish, how should I properly attribute the rules that the implementation is based on?

I frankly have No Experience Whatsoever doing something like this, of making an implementation of a third-party thing; I'm not sure what kind of price point or license the rebake will be released under and so I figured I would just lay it all out before I do anything. I'm absolutely comfy just keeping the module for personal use if that's prefereable for any reason at all, and I'm not gonna do anything whatsoever without explicit permission so there's no time pressure on this or anything. I don't wanna be weird or unhelpful

[brisk flax]

I don't really mind if you do so

Attribution would be nice, you can attribute it to Lancer: NPCs Rebaked by Kai Tave in some capacity

[spice aspen]

nodnod. absolutely yeah, and if the final thing is published on itch or whatever then I'll link to it too

I just wanted to make sure I was like. I didn't want to be Weird and implement something from a third party source without consulting about it first and seeing what you were most comfortable with

[brisk flax]

I appreciate the consideration, broadly speaking I'm okay with stuff like that so long as it gets an attribution

[spice aspen]

alrighty. thank you very much

it'd probably be a bit before I publish anything anyway, but I wanted to check early

[errant needle]

Some feedback from the latest mission (LL3):

Boss was an Ultra Ship Titan template from Suldan, backed by five Rebake Assaults and a smattering of Legionnaires for chaff. Despite the fairly limited selection, this felt actually kinda amusingly in character, as you generally had an Assault backing up each 4some of Legionnaires, sticking to cover, and encircling the PCs. The Lancaster dropping a Reserves bubble shield that gave soft cover handily demonstrated how sharply the Assaults capitalize on exposed units and how much of a hit they take when the PCs are in cover with no way to easily flank them.

Ultra template plus 5 players meant the Titan was a bit of a beast, and the Short Cycle Lance countdown was very threatening to the PCs. I think he only got one point of charge from losing a structure before he was mission killed, but it definitely put The Fear™️ into the PCs for the possibility of them accelerating his countdown. Went for heat to clear conditions and AP damage to repair the primary battery, which seemed like a good investment until the Swallowtail Markerlighted him and the Tortuga managed to crit with twin Decksweepers, overcharge, and unload the Daisy Cutter into his face for a third crit, just after he took a Sherman core power to the face. Shredding the armor made that absolutely devastating, even if the overall OpFor managed plenty of teeth. Final score: Black Witch 4/4 structure, Sherman 3/4, Lancaster 2/4, Tortuga 2/4, Swallowtail 1/4 and the Titan rolled a nat 1 on its second to last structure roll, dying instantly rather than getting another health bar.

[smoky bluff]

Hmm, i wonder if i should give a try on a spite rebake

[indigo oasis]

I encourage it the Spite is simultaneously great and awful, the perfect design space to be for a rebake

Like the only purpose it serves afaik is Imprison and I’m not sure what else it’s trying to do

Imprison is a fantastic ability for an NPC but it’s gotta have more than that

[rose hamlet]

I feel like Spite's Enthrone should be its optional over Crush Targeting tbh, for the sake of "eliminating duplicate stuff". Plus then it'll be a 3-feature NPC

that, or Guardian and Enthrone merge together somehow

Like, Enthrone is already super similar to Near-Threat Denial on Bastion; might as well just make it a passive EDIT: or something that is enabled once the Spite is Immobilized

Something interesting to note about Spite, though: It synergizes strongly with NPC Invade. High Systems and Sensors = easy targeting (duh) but the Impair and Heat dovetail nicely into its Save-based gameplay

Like, that's a strong enough synergy that I'd expect it to be part of its standard rotation while immobilized

Seize itself feels like it could legit be a full tech due to its effect on a miss; maybe drop the Recharge and change it to Full Tech outright even

hm. I could also see Enthrone as a kind of "dig in, get more potent" effect too. "while enthroned, Spite gets X" or something

idk I might be spitballing too much here

[indigo oasis]

Nono something that allows it to gain additional benefits while immobilized feels like it’s cooking to me

I think it should really double down on the Heat or Save interactions just a bit imo

[rose hamlet]

I'm frankly not sure I like the "save vs double damage" effect on Imprison itself tbf

like, I get why, but also

Anyway, Enthrone as a self-immobilize, self-buff that requires 1 Heat upkeep each turn sounds like it could be something

Spite ultimately feels most strongly Tank coded instead of Rearguard-coded in my book so I'd try to lean more into the "Tank for allies" aspect than the "hold ground" aspect. It wants enemies to approach (though struggle while they do so), to attack it instead of buddies, and generally dampen enemy turns (off-controller threats that encourage folks to engage the Spite instead of its buddies)

What it doesn't do is repel opponents or directly wall them off objectives. Yeah it Immobilizes them but that's not the same as "keeping them off its lawn" so to speak

Abilities that make it difficult to retreat from the Spite would be fitting: “come to me to shed your Imprison, but don’t expect a hasty retreat”

“You can only move further away from the Spite while Prone” ohohohoho I think I found something

(If anyone wants to take these ideas and run with them, be my guest)

[indigo oasis]

Huh? What ability is that?

That has to be an optional

[rose hamlet]

It’s the last sentence of Imprison

[indigo oasis]

Oh huh- yeah that part is stupid

The Spite should, ideally, not be trying to Imprison already Imprisoned targets. I don't get why that's an option

[rose hamlet]

It establishes damage as a threat to respect, that can be removed if you obey the imprison

[indigo oasis]

Yeah but the threat of Imprison isn't damage, it's being unable to clear heat

[rose hamlet]

Plus it gives it something to do after everything is imprisoned

[indigo oasis]

It can just Invade or Lock ON is the thing

No shame in making standard actions reliable parts of its toolkit

[rose hamlet]

I mean I get why it might be a bit overtuned to make the “can’t clear heat tool” simultaneously a “raise your heat” tool at least. But true, Invade exists for that anyway

[smoky bluff]

Imprison
System, Quick Tech, +0/+0/+0
The Spite chooses a character within SENSORS and line of sight: they must pass a SYSTEMS save or take 4/5/6 Energy and become infected by a catalyzing virus. While affected by this virus they cannot clear any heat by any means (except for overheating). This effect lasts for the rest of the scene, until the Spite is destroyed, or until the affected character moves adjacent to the Spite. While at least one character is affected by the virus, the Spite is IMMOBILIZED.
Targets that already suffer from the virus must land if they are flying and become prone if imprisoned again.

I feel like something like this would be fine. Gives of a "You are under the authority of someone greater, kneel"

[indigo oasis]

Adding an alt clear condition to Imprison or reduing the Spite's sensor range was also an idea being floated around earlier

being able to imprison at 20 sensors is a bit stupid if it's trying to be a defender imo

[smoky bluff]

I feel like the range 20 is a core identity of the spite and is important in combating artillery though

[indigo oasis]

I do think the flying aspect is fun- becoming prone idk about.

[indigo oasis]

Ooh nevermind I didn't think of that.

[smoky bluff]

It does need to imprison the target twice

[rose hamlet]

I like it

Forcing them to crawl or kneel fits the theme hard

[smoky bluff]

We need more Base flying counters, the only one avaliable by default is the engineer and its not the best but its good enough

I've always see the spite as an evil throne sauron style mofo

[indigo oasis]

I think it shouldn't encourage allies to be near it imo. Not actively discourage but benefits it gives to nearby allies should be slim to none

[smoky bluff]

The range 20 sensors really give it that vibe

[indigo oasis]

If Imprison is it's main tool, it's form of defending should be "bringing everyone away from allies"

[smoky bluff]

Which is why i don't like feedback shield tbh

[indigo oasis]

That allows it to Tank defend by redirecting fire through zoning as well as objective defend but in reverse (drawing enemies away from the objectives rather than hold an objective really good)

[rose hamlet]

The Sensors 20 but low speed/immobilize is honestly a fascinating take on the tank defender since it turns the Tank on its head:

• normal tank wants to engage the foe and make a tarpit. Normally this requires some speed and an Overwatch tool for stickiness
• spite instead says “nah, you come to me” and uses Seize for its stickiness

[indigo oasis]

It does suffer from the fact that in a Gauntlet it is going to suffer for the first round or two

[rose hamlet]

Feedback shield but longer range and only 1 at a time is something

[indigo oasis]

Because it spawns in the objective zone and it very notably does not want to be there

But hey it does benefit from being a lure if Allies like seeders want to lay traps

[smoky bluff]

I think having some old aspects of allies staying near it could be an optional build you can make for the spite

But the main focus is to draw enemies away to deal with them immediately

[indigo oasis]

Keeping them optionals rather than ditching them is probably the best call

[rose hamlet]

Enthrone could inflict difficulty on attacks not against the Spite in Sensors + LOS, with an upkeep of heat (or self heat per attack)

[indigo oasis]

It could also directly combo with Imprison (eg Imprisoned targets suffer difficulty on attacks not against the Spite)

If you make it a full action that is. Forces any non-veteran spite to choose between Imprisoning more targets and forcing all current targets to focus it down

[rose hamlet]

Sure that too

My point is just that a Tank needs the hammer AND an anvil to put its victims between

Carrot and stick

“Come to me to free yourselves” (inefficient choice)
Vs
“Ignore me and suffer” (punishing choice)

[smoky bluff]

Valk, if you do finish your own homebrew, i would like to put it in a lcp for funsies lol

In fact I could put it in the same lcp as the avenger rebake i made

[rose hamlet]

This is why I think it could use a variant crush targeting as a base feature tbh, because Seize actively prevents the target from obeying the Imprison, which means the only other option is “disobey”/“shoot something else” (assuming you’re outta range)

Listen I’m literally just spitballing Spite and Tank concepts here, I don’t know if I’m gonna make anything outta this

Don’t let me step on anyone’s toes

[smoky bluff]

Lol, fair, I'm probably making my own rebake and see where that takes me

[rose hamlet]

I just wanted to present ideas and analyses for folks to work with

[smoky bluff]

I should be sharing these in #homebrew-design instead of here lol

[rose hamlet]

Valid

[indigo oasis]

Eh, it's rebake related, I think this is an appropriate place to discuss

[brisk flax]

here's my hot take: I think the spite's 20 sensors work too much against the concept

I think the closest analogue that might exist to the spite in the broader NPC catalogue is the Goliath, which is a "I will make you want to shoot me" bruiser type guy, but the problem with a sensor range of 20 is it serves to disincentivize a certain amount of "focus on me" by being TOO long-ranged

the goliath, notably has only 10 sensors

anyway, I think the 20 sensors forms a bit of the impression that the spite is less an NPC and more like a map hazard

and I honestly think cutting its sensor range down some might serve to make it more of a thing that can draw aggro by making drawing aggro more practically feasible, and might also open up some budget to give other elements of its kit corresponding tweaks that you can do with a bit more safety

[bold crystal]

the spite is a bunch of anti-artillery features in a trenchcoat pretending to be a defender, is my take.

it has 20 sensors so it can do imprison to your sherman who is shooting at things with the tachyon lance - but this would be better served in a different way that doesn't let it do stuff at ranges that might as well say 'yeah most of the map I guess'.

using ally npcs as relays for effects/sensor range, maybe.

[smoky bluff]

Spite seems to be a mix between a Goliath and trying to act a bit like the aegis

[bold crystal]

also, I would say Imprison immobilizing the spite is kind of bad for players with it having 20 sensors. it has 2 speed. it does not need to lose the ability to move, and if anything it should have some incentives to advance, like a shorter sensor range.

maybe not the best way to phrase that whole thought.

like as-is 'I'm imprisoned by the spite' is often just 'okay I guess I can't clear heat for the rest of the scene or until somebody can chew through the spite's health pool' because moving next to it is terrifically impractical a lot of the time.

[brisk flax]

yeah this is sort of a thing you encounter with a number of the higher-health lower speed NPCs which is a lot of times it's not really wrong to just be like "I'll ignore this guy"

the spite kind of forces the issue through repeated imprison procs but that's also a little annoying in a way because your "reward" for engaging with the spite is a trek of 20 spaces or a bunch of HP to chew through

I can see the anti-artillery argument for the 20 sensors, but that being the case I think the spite needs some engagement w/r/t Imprison that isn't "move adjacent"

[bold crystal]

to be clear, 'anti-artillery' is just how I'm describing what it kind of does - and I don't think that like, it needs to be that in the way it currently does when both the aegis and the witch exist.

[manic sky]

I wonder if you could take inspiration from Kobold's Purifying Code and make it end turn next to an ally, or NOT next to any character, or something. If you specify ally that might make it so it plays with friends. Bombard on the field? You've got nice targets now.

[bold crystal]

also, the spite has access to the basic npc invade, which kind of puts the lie to its description of 'can't do much on its own' - yeah, uh, one of the highest npc save targets and it has the sensors to also basic invade first to try and impair, which means it can cook your reactor and throw out double damage imprisons at the same time.

[opal folio]

I did have an idea for an MBT veteran trait ages ago

Trait
1/Round, the MBT can trigger the Hull save on Tank Shock with normal movement. The save against Tank Shock's effect is now made with Difficulty.```

[smoky bluff]

That's cool

[sharp mirage]

Spites should have like 8/10/12 edef because right now unless you specifically have AP they're kind of a big wall, heatcap 5/6/7 suggests you want to hack and expose it so it'll go down in the next hit or two, but the fact that it has 10/14/16 edef is kind of annoying to get around for hackers that want to drag it closer (TA doesn't trigger Enthrone)

[smoky bluff]

i think another easy fix would've been to just have base system give heat

more management on the GM's part

[rose hamlet]

Legitimately though, tank defenders like the spite want to be defensive in both dimensions, or else they easily crumple in half. Part of the Tank is that attacking them is inefficient. The other half is that attacking anything else is punishing

That said, yeah, I could see the case for some “1 self heat” effects since it’s cap is so low

[spice aspen]

uweh okay, re Kai here -- I just wanted to follow up on my commenting earlier about a foundry module. I have set that up and put it out there for people the use. repo is here, if you want to look any of it over: https://github.com/Ilysen/ilysen-lancer-npc-rebake-structure

as far as attributions, I did my best to include a whole lot of them:

• I called out the rules as coming from Lancer: NPCs Rebaked, by Kai Tave
• I mentioned that they were used here with permission, and linked to this message: #1334655875679260692 message
• I linked to this thread in the description of the module
• I put a little thing in the "authors" field that links to https://kaitave.itch.io/, since I wasn't sure where else to link to -- I can change this to anything else, if desired

if any of this isn't really the right vibe or otherwise is something you want me to change, please don't hesitate to tell at me. I really wanna make sure I do this right. I promise not to fuss about this any more if it's all okay with you. and of course you've got full authority to request me to take it down at any time and I'll oblige asap. I just wanna be responsible

[brisk flax]

This all looks very fine, thank you. Linking to my itch page is also fine because at some point I imagine the published rebake will go up there as well, but even otherwise it's fine

[spice aspen]

alright! thank you for bearing with me

[fathom root]

hmmm

is it me or is grind maniple and puppet crasher not programmed as an actual tech attack with tech stats?

for the lcp

[pulsar hound]

Yup, just had a look - it's been listed as a System instead of a Tech. I'll log it and get a fix sorted.

[indigo oasis]

So just out of curiosity- are Snipers and Operators still somewhat craving feedback?

And are there any other NPCs that still desire feedback?

Planning out next mission and it’s gonna jump near straight into combat so I should have something by next week and then the rhythm should just be continuous from there for 3 combats

[smoky bluff]

I have yet to hear that much from operators from others

all i heard is "I used them, they aren't as bad as the CRB operator. So the players had fun"

still good feedback

[bold crystal]

oh is that why the attack bonus wasn't displaying right in foundry. I assumed it was an outdated lcp thing at the time

[brisk flax]

I mean I'll take feedback on whatever

[indigo oasis]

Yeye I getcha just thought I’d check if there are any other high priority NPCs

[surreal zenith]

i feel like they've gotten a ton, or maybe that's just discussion rather than play experience

[indigo oasis]

They’ve gotten more special attention but the reviews remain mixed

A lot of the negatives tend to boil down to being more fragile- also haven’t seen much on the operator since the range got increased

[subtle nacelle]

This issue is making me want to run a crowdsourced proof-reading of the LCP just to make sure everything is up to par

[indigo oasis]

I did that once for spelling mistakes + grammar but haven’t had the chance to do it again

[sharp mirage]

On page 44 in the Demolisher's Hullcracker effect text Immobilized is missing its second i

The Demolisher chooses a character within Range 2; they must pass a Hull save or be Immobilzed and Shredded until the end of their next turn.

I am on the 1.5 version

[subtle nacelle]

individually, you dont have to do all of it, but maybe picking a single class or template and doing that

[smoky bluff]

most of the discussion and biggest criticism are from me

just 1 group

[indigo oasis]

So yeah playtest variety is desired

I’ve given my thoughts on a decent few NPCs thus far and this next mission should get some good ultra testing

[smoky bluff]

the other times the operator was mention is as a side note

I still do find that the operator struggles due to not really being able to counter the mechs they are designed to fight against due to players having crazy mobility options without having to invest that much into their evasion. Allowing them to easily catch the operator

against slower players, they also struggle due to not having the same defence mitigation options as a sniper since a slower player is usually an armored player

The only upside to it as of now is that it does thing better

Better damage with 7/9/11 and reliable, better speed with teleport, better mech skills rolls than others

It does fit the dynamics of the operator so I can't say anything much about it as of now

Its best is when templated because its the artillery that can benefit more than most artilleries

[indigo oasis]

I have a Zheng and the Operators + Snipers are kept as "In case the player own the sitrep too hard" reserves to deploy, so I think the Operators will definitely be in an interesting position

[smoky bluff]

Sniper and Bombard can't make use easily of the free overcharge

Rainmaker can probably provide something similar with rocket pod spam but the operator is the best artillery to template with elite, veteran or ultra

[indigo oasis]

Hmmm. Disagree there. Sniper's consistent stabilizing means it can "OC Loop" in a way, which gives it much better mobility, Lock On Capability, and Defense (hiding) allowing it to maintain Line of Sight much more freely

[smoky bluff]

The AMR is a superheavy for the sniper

[indigo oasis]

It can't attack twice, which is the biggest Limitless use, but it's still really good

[smoky bluff]

Most of the sniper's kit are full actions

[indigo oasis]

Because Heat Clear with stabilize is already a part of the Sniper's standard action cycle, and the Sniper can't often take Quick Actions that aren't "Barrage" or "Stabilize"

[indigo oasis]

I know- but generic actions are really valuable, for the Sniper especially because it so rarely gets to use them.

[smoky bluff]

True

[indigo oasis]

Hide and Boost in particular are very good on a Sniper

[smoky bluff]

Even still operator can easily outdamage a sniper with a well place limitless overload shot

[indigo oasis]

Of course

[smoky bluff]

Sure you might get exposed in a really bad position but you are sure to guarantee value out of it either way

[vale crescent]

The most goated sniper turn:

Move -> ram -> overcharge boost

[indigo oasis]

Still, I wouldn't say sniper is bad to template by a long shot

[smoky bluff]

True

[indigo oasis]

Isn't there a spare quick action left?

[smoky bluff]

I'm saying the Operator benefits the most out of being templated compare to the other artilleries

[vale crescent]

Yeah but it just overcharged purely for the aura

[indigo oasis]

Of course, any Superheavy user is going to get somewhat more limited use out of Overcharging compared to any other NPC

[vale crescent]

It ends its turn with a spare quick

[smoky bluff]

I'm just a bit disappointed that the operator only performs its best when it is templated

Other npcs in the rebake don't really suffer the same issue

Well tbh that's a bit wrong

All npcs perform their best when templated

[neon blaze]

right, yeah

[smoky bluff]

Operator just gets the most out of it

[neon blaze]

I don't think Operator is unique in that regard having gotten experience with them

[smoky bluff]

Cuz its a real stat block

[neon blaze]

I have managed to collect some immediate Operator thoughts of my own buuuuuuuuut but I'm kind of holding onto them, at least for now

[indigo oasis]

Without a Template an Operator feels like a Grunt is the vibe I'm getting from just hearing about it

[neon blaze]

either until we finish the scene or at the least get a few more turns under our belt

[indigo oasis]

And that is something I hope to disprove when I field an Operator

Or at least find out why it feels like that

[smoky bluff]

Well more so because of CRB operator trauma, they get focused down very hard and they play much closer compared to other artillery

[rose hamlet]

I hope to test some Operator soonish

[indigo oasis]

My Players thankfully remain untraumatized by the Operator

The one player I have from a previous campaign found the Ultra Boss kinda pathetic, and the only operator I deployed this campaign got trashed hard after I hyped it up

[smoky bluff]

Operator is good in all aspects except survivability

[indigo oasis]

It does have +2 to all HASE at T1

[smoky bluff]

Yeah

[neon blaze]

ah theres your issue, you hyped 'em up. everyone knows the hyped up baddie eats dirt the fastest /j

[smoky bluff]

Like i said, its a real stat block for good stuff. The real question is how long you can keep it alive to make the most out of it

[indigo oasis]

I was young... er.

I've learned

[neon blaze]

(i say this as a joke, having hyped up two npcs now who are currently getting their ass beat. which ironically is probably why my operators are still alive. ironic, huh?)

[supple shell]

Has anyone tested the specter yet?

[indigo oasis]

You know that's a good shoutout

[smoky bluff]

Yeah, its pretty manageable, the real question is how you convince other players to take the quick action to disable the invisibility

[indigo oasis]

I also don't think Assassin with the updated Assassin's Mark has gotten a lot of attention

[smoky bluff]

Most players manage anyways

[indigo oasis]

Lots of strikers that haven't gottent attention

[smoky bluff]

I have so much fun trying to combo with the assassin that I sometimes forget about it

[supple shell]

Yeah I read the new invis counter and it seemed like an extra roll that would mostly slow gameplay (at least at my table).

[indigo oasis]

It's seen a few revisions, and last I heard of it the latest revision felt meaningful. iirc that was your table Reconus?

I could be wrong

[supple shell]

I used my own homebrew "invisibility counter" to make it more manageable by adding an exception: "always invis except when attacking."

[indigo oasis]

The name of the person who reported it was Purple I'm pretty sure

[supple shell]

I'm mostly curious how the contested systems roll plays out as an overhead issue.

[neon blaze]

I have not used a rebake Spectre so probably not me

[indigo oasis]

Dang

Then idk who reported that

[smoky bluff]

Its something

[supple shell]

Hm. I'll have to try it out. It and the Ronin are at the top of my list for testing.

[neon blaze]

I've used Support + Defender Grunts, Seeder, Engineer, Sentinel, Witch, Rainmakers, Bastions, Operator, Aegis, Archer and Pyro thus far

[smoky bluff]

Most players i playtest it by now just use a shit ton of reliable damage, aoe when it goes hidden and anti-invisibility systems they prepare

[indigo oasis]

From what I've heard the Overhead isn't the issue, but rather "how is this action worth it over doing anything else"

Which is and always will be a challenge

[smoky bluff]

Yeah its not exactly appealing when you think "i already know how to deal with this" and take that action instead

The other actions get more value other than just, make a system check against the specter

[neon blaze]

Actually, I guess I can share some tidbits - in my first few turns of Operator shenanigans I actually think their mobility and range work really well in nailing them in as Artillery, and the Reliable does make them an very present threat. they strike the hit-and-fade beat well

ironically, counter to what i've heard everyone else mention, I actually think what isn't clicking is Strike and Fade

I still want to get a few more turns out of them before I make a call, but I had a few immediate gut feelings just in the first turns between two of them

[smoky bluff]

I do think strike and fade is sort of hard to use

I find myself trying to get the difficulty more than the accuracy because I have Reliable

[neon blaze]

it isn't hard to use, so much as I think the effects are incorrect - or I guess incorrect is the wrong word. its more the Operator doesn't want certain effects, or benefits from them in the same way

[smoky bluff]

And with the difficulty for all attacks and the good E-Defense and evasion of the operator. I want the permanent soft cover to everything more than the accuracy

[neon blaze]

because this is a big component of it, yeah

[supple shell]

Strike and fade feels kinda like video game logic and, imo, introduces a button to press at an inconvenient time for cognitive load. I'd rather see it as a protocol, personally.

[smoky bluff]

If that's the case I'd use difficulty all the time

[neon blaze]

I like the video game logic component is the thing - Lancer is kind of game-y as it is, and I think codifying it as a genuine internal game loop is perfect for an NPC

[smoky bluff]

Who cares about accuracy? I'll probably only use it if my players are actually evasive enough to make it my problem

Unless i am trying for a funny overload shot maybe

Gotta maximise the casualties

[neon blaze]

Like, thats honestly the thing - Strike and Fade is not only pretty signature, but honestly? is incredibly fun to play into. It feels like how an Operator should act

I think the framework is not just compelling but optimal in creating a skirmisher-type game loop by prompting the question of how you want to spend that movement

[smoky bluff]

That extra bit of flexibility might be what the operator needs tbh

Cuz any sort of tweak anywhere else and its too good

Stat wise, its already very good

[neon blaze]

the optionals also give good opportunity to be greedy as an Operator which I appreciate

I'm personally using Singularity Grenades because frankly I am annoyed at my players for putting me through Sunzi Crime Time but Telefrag is just as viable for being able to gain both effects for Strike and Fade for a brief moment

[smoky bluff]

Huh, what do you know, I have playtested all strikers

[brisk flax]

so I'm going to be honest and I don't mean this in a negative way, but: you're really the only person who has had this brace of issues with the operator, which I think isn't invalid, but I also think that this may be a case of a specific GM/playgroup casting a particular focus on things that is not being reported on more broadly

[smoky bluff]

Yeah which is why i sort of stop commenting about it

Until it was brought up again

[brisk flax]

I want to reiterate that this isn't me going "your feedback is bad," but notably nobody else who has used the operator has had this spate of commentary regarding it

[indigo oasis]

Can’t wait to hear elaboration on that when your combat finishes because that is fascinating (positive)

[rose hamlet]

I’m planning on running some Ops with Deniable Asset this… Saturday? Finally gonna get something to stick lol

[vale crescent]

After fighting Kiros as a player all optionals Kiros has but from the rebake. I think what I figured out was, the Operator is bizarre because the new operator is a counter to the thing that counters the operator.

It's hit and run, maneuverable and speedy and use reliable against characters with high evasion... So it counters slow enemies and high evasion enemies... But the problem is because of its hit and run tactics, fragile health and high evasion, it's countered by fast enemies... Which makes me think it counters the people it counters which is bizarre...

In the game I played this was notable when the hardest hitter VS them was the high evasion high seed everest with duel DSAS' when I expected Kiros to counter them

Ah I have previously mentioned this here I think #1334655875679260692 message

[brisk flax]

I admit I don't really think of the operator, in its rebake design, as being a "counter unit"

that is, it isn't really something designed with the purpose of "this counters X"

[smoky bluff]

True, i have also thought of it for a while and all i can get from it is that its a good stat block

Other than hp and range

[indigo oasis]

Imo, the Rebake Operator feels a little like a “Player Analog”… I can’t say exactly why I think this it just feels like it

[brisk flax]

I do think that NPCs need focus and a gameplay identity, but I don't think that identity needs to involve "this specifically counters a thing"

like the bombard does that, as one very obvious example, and that's good and cool, but not every NPC really needs to be about that sort of dynamic, it's one avenue of focus, but not one I'm particularly exclusive to, if that makes sense

[vale crescent]

Fair, I think that unless in Lancer unless something is remarkable average it does by Lancers design things just naturally "counter" more than others

[smoky bluff]

Monkey brain loves to categories and put funny toys into categories yeah, we just can't stop falling for it

[vale crescent]

And that ^

[indigo oasis]

Same as with PCs and NPCs- “I counter X” cannot be your entire schtick

[vale crescent]

I assume here, Counter != is naturally effective against

[brisk flax]

I mean I also don't think the CRB operator is a "counter" unit either, but I don't think it really has much of an identity in any regard

[vale crescent]

The CRB operator counters you having hitpoints /j

[brisk flax]

I think "counter" can be broad in terms of "this has a clear goal/punitive effect against a specific thing or behavior"

arguably the rebake Assault serves something in this purpose as it punishes you for being out of cover, there's a clear "do X or Y bad thing happens"

but something like the Hive, in either iteration, is simply a controller that works via certain methods and abilities

the Hive isn't really a "counter" to anything, it's just a controller that does its job in specific ways (razor swarms, forced movement stuff, etc)

[neon blaze]

BUT: focusing on the effects of Strike and Fade, my gut feeling so far playing has been that, yes, Accuracy hasn't felt lucrative so far for the Operator, who doesn't feel like it really wants in the same way as other NPCs, especially something like the Sniper which got slammed in the Accuracy department also.

Ironically, I found this actually feels correct: Operator's being hyper mobile and shorter range kind of lends it to being a "lone wolf" more than some other Artillery which kind of appreciate more overt support (Rainmaker and Sniper want Lock-On, Bombard ... well, I haven't tested Bombard so I couldn't say) and so being less dependent on Lock On and support is a nice touch. I've mainly been holding an Aegis and Pyro in the backline to act as "anchors" for the Operators to retreat to and move out of, using them more as staging points than explicit support. So, less reliant on outside help, it can kind of just do its own thing (and Strike and Fade as it stands does mean it can source its own Accuracy that way).

But otherwise: I am having no issue hitting the Evasion 8 Balor who can't find cover with 9 damage slugs, and against the Evasion 12 + perma-soft cover Dumas (and hopefully, coming up, the Flicker Field Lich) I've been brute forcing them with a staggering Reliable 4 which is enough to cut their HP by a quarter even on a miss. Reliable obviously leans it more towards being anti-evasion but it honestly has enough straight-up damage to be anti-armor too

again, I kind of want to get a few more turns before I make the call on whether this is the actual case or whether this is just the situations as they've played out so far but thats been my immediate Operator experience

in terms of how they play though they absolutely live up to the fantasy and provide a distinct challenge

[brisk flax]

I will say, re: the accuracy and usefulness thereof, but it's been pretty consistent that the rebake's bounding of NPC to-hit rates has made a notable difference in terms of how often NPCs hit on average, which means that +1 accuracy does seem to have materially more value in terms of "getting the actual hit off"

this isn't to say "well you're just ignoring that," if it's not coming up in your games it's not coming up, but from feedback the overall consensus does seem to be that rebake NPCs on the whole find accuracy/to-hit to be more dear

which is, I mean, good job me, that's what I wanted, so there we go

[smoky bluff]

Even still, with how much the operator needs to operate close to the enemy where it can be jumped by quick players, it wants the difficulty more than the accuracy which is hard to get even for me since you have to shoot before teleporting

[brisk flax]

again, with all due respect:
1). you can move normally afterwards
2). you can use other NPCs to help

[smoky bluff]

True, commander hornets to trail the operator do work pretty ok

[brisk flax]

like, I'm going to do some armchair diagnosis and suggest that there is perhaps a component to this which is the perception that an operator having to rely on teamwork is a "failure state"

[smoky bluff]

Not to mention how elite Operator play

[bold crystal]

it's also specifically teleport so you can boost > shoot > teleport for difficulty

[neon blaze]

Oh without a doubt, yeah. I don't think I've actually felt that ironically seeing most of the NPCs I've picked have been fairly bounded in terms of accuracy, but its definitely significant

[brisk flax]

I remember there was an earlier playtest where an operator taking cover behind a bastion was framed as a sort of "bad outcome"

[vale crescent]

Lmao what

[brisk flax]

and I'm going to be honest, I don't really feel like this is the case

again, I'm trying to say this non-judgmentally

this isn't like "look at these dummies" or whatever, please do not take it as such

[smoky bluff]

Tbh I do feel like the name operator does give it that lone wolf kind of feel which cause use to play that way

[brisk flax]

but I have a suspicion that the operator may be perceived as wanting to be more "self-sufficient" but, like

it's still a normal NPC

teamwork is, and should be, a thing even for it

[smoky bluff]

"Operator" ok edgelord

[neon blaze]

It was def. what inspired my Chain and Anchor style of play currently

[brisk flax]

like "here is a hive razor swarm, it gives soft cover"

"here is a guy you can post up behind"

[spice aspen]

yeah. I have a pet theory that it's part of the learning curve of adapting to the bakes, like -- I know I've had to change my point of view a couple times with some of the new unit designs just because I was so used to the old ones

[brisk flax]

"the barricade makes a block for you"

etc

[neon blaze]

I wanted to give them support but something that didn't need to be shackled, so I decided for Pyro (which now has range! i almost forgot about this!) and Aegis w/ remote projector

[brisk flax]

this is stuff I think that CRB operators do not ever need to use

[ancient forge]

That’s kinda more the specter’s deal though right? Find lone targets to pursue while hiding alone?

[brisk flax]

because why would you, they get baseline +2 accuracy, have 20 range, have fade generator that gives them huge invisibility, etc

[bold crystal]

CRB operators can more or less literally do whatever they want. 20 range and teleporting and they have, on top of that, Step?

[brisk flax]

the CRB operator IS basically able to ignore the team because they just get so much fucking stuff it's pointless to bother

yeah you can just go "step, I'm now 50 spaces somewhere else"

[bold crystal]

rebake operators don't have the raw freedom of 'hm, guess I'll leave this bad situation forever unless you grapple me and I have 20 range so good luck getting in range to ever do that'

[smoky bluff]

God forbid you have CRB fade generator

[brisk flax]

re: accuracy, there are ways to incentivize accuracy, but tbh I'm hesitant to implement a lot of them on the operator because, well, there's a chance that pushes things in the direction of "oh this now sucks to fight again"

like the easiest way to incentivize accuracy is on-crit type stuff, ask any CRB ronin how this works

[smoky bluff]

Well tbh the time I played the operator with the bastion, I was disappointed because back then, the gun was basically Archer levels of damage and slightly worst reliable

Its better now

[neon blaze]

yeah no, thats definitely not the angle I was thinking of to be fair

[brisk flax]

I mean, it's AN angle

I think it's worth considering and noting

I am not particularly invested in the operator getting additional damage, there are other avenues (conditions) but I think it already has a good spread of such in its optionals

[neon blaze]

The issue I experienced was less "it does nothing with the accuracy" - accuracy is accuracy in the end, its nice to have - and more that the accuracy is competing with the difficulty

[brisk flax]

like I said, I suspect part of the competition may be partly (I'm not willing to stake a definitive conclusion on armchair speculation at 10:30 on a sunday) on the perception of the operator's self-reliance

if the operator running GM wants the operator to be a lone wolf then yeah I see the difficulty being more valuable on average

[smoky bluff]

Even when runned as a team sometimes, the operator want survivability more than hitting targets

[neon blaze]

I mean, kinda, but not really

[smoky bluff]

Yeah it does depend on the team composition

I could try the bastion operator strat again, would be very funny

And good now that they have the range and damage to exploit it

[brisk flax]

or hive, or barricade, etc

[smoky bluff]

Or priest

[brisk flax]

dataveil operator mirage

[neon blaze]

I'll admit I was extremely aggressive on the first turn in the hopes of scoring some early first hits but once players started making headway I started trying to be more conservative so I could contest points better

[smoky bluff]

Man yeah i haven't run a rebake mirage

[neon blaze]

like the irony is that I have been mostly going for the Accuracy, but so far it hasn't felt very validating

I'll poke at it more to see how it goes but yeah, its definitely more a interesting specific set up that has kind of shifted the value of resources around

Reliable echoes a lot of the original super-accurate multi-attack Operator but in a way that is frankly reasonably bounded and also just. a lot easier to roll for. but now that it has gained Reliable at a fairly high value, it can definitely do more with less when and if it needs to

[brisk flax]

Heavy Rifle
+1/2/3
Reliable 3/4/5
Range 12
7/9/11 energy damage
On Critical Hit: This weapon deals burn instead of energy damage.```

[smoky bluff]

God damn

That's actually

That's actually very appealing

[bold crystal]

that's horrifying!

[brisk flax]

there you go guys, I fixed it

[smoky bluff]

Way to turn things on its head kai

Accuracy for evasive targets? Nah I want to crit the tanky mofo

[vale crescent]

Fascinating

[smoky bluff]

This actually pairs so well with the Veteran trait too

You can't stop the crit machine

[brisk flax]

it's honestly not THAT much additional damage, AP averages out to a couple points maybe

burn being burn is an oft remarked upon thing in terms of how often people fail the check

[bold crystal]

tbh 'on crit, this is AP' wouldn't be bad.

[smoky bluff]

Yeah but it wouldn't be as funny

[surreal zenith]

the bit is vital

[vale crescent]

Can I suggest making it "may choose to be burn" to prevent it being a nerf against insulated targets

[brisk flax]

I suspect the impact of such a change would be more psychological than game defining, like if I wanted to be mean about it it would be something like "on crit this weapon's damage can't be reduced" but I think that veers too hard into the sniper's thing re: dealing direct structure damage

[smoky bluff]

Also Genghis and Lancaster stonks. You crit me? Lol, lmao

[bold crystal]

can't be reduced is way more frustrating as a player, tbh

[smoky bluff]

You actually did nothing

[brisk flax]

yeah, and the sniper has telegraphed stuff going for it

[bold crystal]

you can brace AP damage and burn, you can't brace 'my exotic gun does damage that can't be reduced' etc