#The NPC Rebake Project and NPC Tinkering Power Zone (NO MULTIATTACKERS ALLOWED)

1 messages · Page 10 of 1

brisk flax
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Also to be blunt, Shrike Code is barely a hindrance compared to multi-attack scaling, I seriously do not consider it a significant element of counterplay

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If something is independently deployed (like mines, areas, etc) and doesn't say it vanishes on the deploying unit's death, it does not

smoky bluff
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isn't shrike code every attack roll made?

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i've seen some versions where that is the case

brisk flax
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So it works against AoE stuff, rainmaker attacks, etc

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The argument has come up before that removing tier-scaling multiattacks removes some of the value of it because it now no longer gets multiple procs off of those, and I want to stress that I'm not saying this in an aggressive fashion towards those who have raised this point, but: I do not care even a little bit

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If the worst byblow of removing multiattacks-by-tier is that shrike code gets worse, I will throw a party on its grave

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Sorry buddy, omelettes and eggs

indigo oasis
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Ya know with all this talk about “I love the Support Desant Hardpoints is great” with very little praise going to any other part of the support, I’m starting to wonder if it should just be a base feature. I’m like. Half joking here :P

rose hamlet
indigo oasis
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Yeah that is a valid point- could just be a sample size issue

rose hamlet
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I will always encourage folks to try different parts of the kit on different goes

smoky bluff
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It gives the Support something to be useful with while waiting to put another restock drone

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and allied characters want to be adjacent to the support anyways thanks to nanocloud

indigo oasis
rose hamlet
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If folks feel like one feature is dominating their “optional budget” then that’s something I take into account for my own stuff

smoky bluff
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Yeah then i got to wait for a 5 or 6 on the recharge

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I can only sealant gun my players for so long

indigo oasis
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One of the recharge abilities (probably remote cloud) being Recharge 4 rather than 5 would probably help a little with making to more consistent, but I guess first you’d need to test remote cloud to see how good it is and therefore if it could get away with that

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Cause not a single one of the Support’s actions apart from Sealant Gun is a recharge lower than 5

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So every support, at all times, has a 1/3 chance of not having anything unique to do apart from Sealant Gun

smoky bluff
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Remote cloud is relatively useful but i don't think it deserves a recharge at all. I used it once, got Accuracy for a hull save against a Caliban's Slam once and that was about it

indigo oasis
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Ya know I’m probably gonna replace Latch Drone with Remote Cloud on the support I’m about to run, see what happens

indigo oasis
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It’ll be a holdout so that should help

smoky bluff
indigo oasis
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Then it’ll be a good stress test

smoky bluff
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maybe extremely? but i'm not exactly sure how +1 Accuracy compares to roll twice on all saves and mech skill checks
and choosing the higher result.

indigo oasis
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There’s also Burn in play due to Walking Armory so that’ll be something

smoky bluff
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Sealant gun time

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I think this should be a good player composition for the support to go up against, burn focused players, save focused players, and skill checks players

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that is if it doesn't die first

brisk flax
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Probably I will just decouple recharge from remote cloud entirely

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like whatever

indigo oasis
smoky bluff
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I think even if you are smaller, you can force a check with a quick action?

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its just not a free action

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If both parties are the same SIZE,
either can make contested HULL checks at the
start of their turn

A GRAPPLE ends when:
• either character breaks adjacency, such as if they
are knocked back by another effect;
• the attacker chooses to end the grapple as a free
action;
• The defender breaks free by succeeding on a
contested HULL check as a quick action.

indigo oasis
# brisk flax Probably I will just decouple recharge from remote cloud entirely

It is range 5 and its effects are basically just another version of Nano-Repair Cloud. What you get out of it the turn you use it is equivalent to just boosting- the main appeal is being able to decouple the benefits from the Support’s Position or Stack the effects, which means placing another one and losing the old one feels like punishment enough to me

indigo oasis
smoky bluff
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yeah it expands up on the support's area of effect even if its not the same

indigo oasis
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But in terms of the specific benefit incurred, it doesn’t give anything being adjacent to the support already gives

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I don’t plan on testing it with the removed recharge as of yet but we’ll see

smoky bluff
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Technically you can combine the effects together but if players are forcing saves against that idk what they are thinking

indigo oasis
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I will be the designated Desant Hardpoint Hater for Data Collection ✊ 😔

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(Joke)

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(I do wanna use it at some point- it’d be pretty good on a Holdout but thaaaats risky)

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(What with all the extra optionals I’ve put)

smoky bluff
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out of all the optionals, 2 uses full actions and 1 uses quick, I can see why support isn't well used, its hard to make it work from time to time

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all uses recharge

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(at least, for now)

indigo oasis
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Shame that Latch Drone is the objectively strongest optional lol

smoky bluff
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mine always get shot off by AoE attacks

rose hamlet
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Hi risk hi return

smoky bluff
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I always just seem to have one that does bonus damage and I always conveniently forget that bonus damage is halved

smoky bluff
brisk flax
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remote cloud also isn't high risk

smoky bluff
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yeah

smoky bluff
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Y'know this talk reminds me of that one time i slapped the "Pause" Engine on my Support instead of Bastion for the recreation of meet the medic

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With desant hardpoints i think I should do that shit again

heavy pebble
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Ran a nasty boss battle at LL8/T3 with some rebaked NPCs. Findings:

  • Players had fun playing around Cataphract's updated Capacitor Discharge using Jammed
  • Electrified Lasso applying 4 heat felt extremely strong and worth spamming every turn regardless of positioning
  • By comparison, Impale felt weak and not worth using. Didn't feel much different than just boost+grapple.
  • Assaults were straightforward and consistently threatening to players on the wide-open control point. Had a fun combo where a Breacher destroyed an exposed player's cover so an assault could follow up.
  • Big Breacher was scary. Got good use out of Ram Plating while jammed. First breacher died quick but was extremely disruptive. Second Breacher was stranded in a corner by unhinged chronology/puppet systems but an allied cataphract was able to drag the artillery player to it.
  • Mirage was pretty much the same as CRB, just applied a lot of heat and teleports. Didn't miss Reality Flicker much. Players chose not to bring a counter for invis and suffered for it.
brisk flax
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The thing about Impale, among other things, is it doesn't care about size

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not until the effect itself ends

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boost + grapple doesn't let you pull bigger targets

finite egret
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I was curious based on Kukris feedback about Operators feeling like they were needing to use all their actions getting around/surviving so was curious if that helped

brisk flax
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gotcha

finite egret
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That's fine, not suggesting you do so

brisk flax
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I've discussed it previous in regards to operator tweaks: between range and speed, I prefer the increased range for the reason that I do not really want to increase the difficulty in map-presence engagement on the operator

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that is to say, I don't want to to be physically harder to close the distance

finite egret
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It was just relaying feedback that came back. I recognise that removing multiattack is a major part of this project so there's a snowball's chance in hell that that would be changed 😆

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It would be much easier to change shrike code at this point if anything actually needed changing

finite egret
finite egret
brisk flax
finite egret
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Haha fair enough! 😆

brisk flax
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overheating is also less "interruptive" to NPCs compared to damage

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taking damage risks things like System Trauma, stunned, things that can actually interrupt an NPC's ability to act, while overheating causing Exposed isn't a non-factor it still basically puts the onus on PCs to capitalize on it

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and even melting down has a time delay factor associated with it

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like I'm not saying "6 heat does nothing" because it does, but specifically as a sort of bulwark against multi-attack scaling strikers, I don't personally see it being that valuable of a tradeoff

finite egret
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On normal NPCs, for sure. For multi stress ones, it can be a significant chunk of their health bar, and that frequently doesn't scale much or at all NPCs, so it has proved a deterrent at our table

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But definitely you can just go YOLO and run them suicidally where they just shoot as much as they can and then use the meltdown to try to call even more damage to the PCs. Or anywhere in between. Not a cut and dry binary

errant needle
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Now picturing an Ultra Veteran Commander Operator with Limitless and no self preservation

indigo oasis
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Recent Combat with the Rebakes- combat was not resolved however a notable amount of progress was made.

PC's (LL3):

  • CPR NucCav Pegasus w/ Sisyphus equipped. It is noteworthy that this player's HASE is 0005, much against the advice of everyone else. He paid for it.
  • Grappler Zheng
  • Drone Focused Kidd, had a Sentinel Drone as Exotic Gear
  • Spotter-Orator Swallowtail

OpFor (Sitrep was Finjalis' Objective Forward Recon- major difference was no points would be scored if the true OZ wasn't found- once found, it needs to be held by exlusively the PC's for 2 rounds before ending combat):

  • Horror Elite Lurker (Superfluous Extremities, Abhorrent Redundancies, Consume Shroud, Devouring Shard)
  • Horror Rebake Witch (Terrifying, Petrify) [note- Terrifying should've come into play more often, but it was forgotten about and often would not have made a difference regardless]
  • Horror Rebake Hive (Quadraped)
  • Industrial Rebake Sentinel (Wrecker, Wrath Lock, Impaler) [Impaler was forgotten about after the most significant overwatch of the sitrep, that was a mistake]
  • Industrial Rebake Berserker (Industrial Clamps, Harpoon Gun)
  • Exotic Rebake Scourer (Regenerator, Supercharged)
  • Exotic Rebake Veteran (Unofficial) Rebake Avenger (Living Weaponry, Judgement Shotgun, Cycle of Violence)

(continuing to next message)

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Thoughts:

  • Witch: I like the clarity of the new Petrify, it definitely functions a lot better. Blur has been so close to being relevant but not quite been applicable just yet. Predatory Logic being a Quick Action also feels good. Have not felt incentivized to use Blind however, despite how helpful it would be.
  • Hive: The integration of Motile Swarm into the base kit and the removal of the need to recharge made it feel easier to use. Overall not playing different from the CRB so far. It allowed the Hive to move a Razor Swarm into the Zheng and have its Drone Barrage encourage them to move out of the True Objective Zone, allowing the (thus far severely damaged) hive to move into a safer position and ensure that if the Avenger or Hive were to be harmed, he would need to pass through the Razor Swarm first.
  • Sentinel: The size increase made the Wrecker way more dangerous on it than I first anticipated. Not only that, but being able to peek over size 2 cover makes its Combat Shotgun range more constant and able to keep up its threat. It was able to do a lot of hurt, and while I do love it, I may have overtuned it. That's a personal use issue. Wrath Lock is also very fun to use, the Boost and Lock On set up for a really potent Combat Shotgun attack along with making me feel safe to turn on Eye of Midnight. Moreover, the Eye of Midnight changes didn't literally come into play, but I was encouraged to use it before the Pegasus used Jager Rounds on it to great effect, forcing the sentinel to spend its entire turn disabling Eye of Midnight only to move into Athena's Simulacrum. Still a potent threat.
    I will say the Combat Shotgun damage felt really high, almost to an unfair degree, but this was on the Pegasus- he invested in no hull, he's an outlier and should not be counted.
  • Berserker: It died too fast to do anything unique, plus it's a berserker, there's not much different :/
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  • Scourer: Has not done anything noteworthy yet
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  • Veteran: Limitless being a base trait really made the Veteran feel more capable and actionable while also not overwhelming the action economy. At most I used Limitless to make up for a missed attack- it's pretty great!
  • Avenger: The reorganization of traits so that first time players can learn about what Revenge does at the periphery before seeing the actual text is really fun- I like the choice here. Moreover, Vanguard Armor feels really usable- I've never ran a regular Avenger so idk how Assault Armor would feel, but I can say for certain the one time it was attacked, Vanguard ARmor triggered when Assault Armor wouldn't have. It further reinforced wanting to keep the Avenger buddied up with others.
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So far we're on Round 3 and only 2 player turns in and 1 NPC turn, and unfortunately my players rolled really shit on the True Control ZOne rolls, designating the very last zone they checked the true one, so that sunk some actions out of them

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also I know this is an overtuned encounter, but my rolls were crazy good this session

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So that played a definite part in the difficulty spike- my players were having a lot of trouble effectively damaging the enemies despite being pretty well equipped to handle it

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In terms of things to try and trigger, the new Impaler, Cycle of Violence and Blind are on my mind- I'll see if there's a good opportunity to use them at some point soon

brisk flax
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Just a note, Predatory Logic is a quick action in the CRB as well

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that isn't changed

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re: the sentinel, unfortunately I'm not as familiar with the Industrial template, so I'll have to take your word for it regarding Wrecker and interactions thereof

indigo oasis
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Like I said, that was a me thing, not really a rebake thing

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Essentially it's a threat 3 Heavy w/ baked in difficutly that attacks all characters within threat when used

indigo oasis
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IN essence, so far into combat, the changes have effected the board very indirectly- in that even if it wasn't used, my choices as a GM were influened to playing more into locking on, being by teammates to support, and playing more defensively while also trying to put more effort into setting up

brisk flax
indigo oasis
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The combo was intentional, but I really expected it to miss more :|

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I'm just very used to the pegasus one shotting my major NPCs that I kinda tuned most of them up with that expectation, along with Jolly Rodger destroying controllers + the Zheng attack comboing enemies to death one at a time. Now that that's not really happening I'm a little worried

smoky bluff
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Eh it happens, enough bad rolls and you'll be feeling the hurt even if your encounters are usually suppose to go better, I should know from the first 2 times I used the rebake npcs, alot of my players rolled bad and because of that, game plans that should've worked don't and the npcs punish this violently, especially when players take the overcharge to try again and eat enough heat to become exposed

indigo oasis
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I was so tempted to Invade the Pegasus and expose him, but he was already on 2 structure and with no Hull investment there's no universe where that would've ended well

smoky bluff
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Wouldn't be a problem for my GOAT, the minotaur. Internal Metafold, stay winning

indigo oasis
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Wait I'm confused how does Internal Metafold help?

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Nevermind I get it

carmine idol
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So this is kinda something out to the playtest community here - other GM I swap with and I have noticed that playtesting the Operator is kinda difficult right now. Most groups that will playtest the Rebake are likely to be groups that have also faced the wrath of an Operator in the past and therefore, will absolutely gun it as a top priority target above all else.

With the rebake bringing the unit more in line with the rest of the damage-dealing cast, I'm thinking of creating a "Noperator" of sorts in the LCP - happy for suggestions on the name, something fitting like "Skirmisher" or whatever would be great, might just use that - point being that the intention is just say the players "this is a new class introduced by the Rebake" and playtest from there.

Thoughts?

rose hamlet
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If you go ahead anyway: I would not say to put it in the lcp for general use, but for personal use that sounds fine

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Some of this involves re-education of how classes work

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Players trained to kill the Witch first out of fear may do that

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Alternatively, get some defensive buddies for the Operator. It sounds like Bastion and Goliath have done strong work for it from prior playtesting

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But I think outright telling the players “hey, have you fought operators before? This one is toned down, it’s not gonna wreck your face if you let it live for a round or two”

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Is important

old ridge
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yeah maybe give them a free scan on it so they can see you're telling the truth

rose hamlet
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Pair it with an alternative threat and it should help imo

“Now, Breacher Bob over here is gonna ruin your day”

brisk flax
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I think the thing about NPCs in general is that a lot of them are going to fold pretty quickly if the players decide "fuck that guy in particular"

indigo oasis
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My players have kinda steamrolled Operators before, so I’m gonna look for a place to just throw it in

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See what happens

brisk flax
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there are some exceptions, like it's hard to immediately burst a goliath down, but I have actually gotten a lot of playtest reports so far where this or that non-Operator unit played no factor in the fight because it just got destroyed

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lot of "the sniper didn't do anything because it immediately died"

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or "yeah the ronin/berserker just got killed" etc

rose hamlet
brisk flax
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I'm not saying you SHOULDN'T try some new stuff, and I do agree with Valk that one thing that may be different with the rebake version in a positive fashion is it's now less punitive to run multiple operators at once, etc

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or using them as reinforcements could also work

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instead of having them in the baseline opfor

brisk flax
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from a general tactics perspective, I think the new operator wants to be more of a team player than "the guy 20 spaces thataway"

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I'm not sure how to "undo" learned target prioritization beyond just applying lots of pressure elsewhere, "kill the striker/artillery" isn't bad strategy on the face of it

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but if renaming them to something else does the trick then placebo away

carmine idol
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Ty for thoughts 😎👌 May end up renaming for our group, but seeing a lot of angles here - initial thought largely stems from the fact that CRB Operator was so difficult to kill that it had to be done opportunistically - players have generally been happy to take damage from other sources if it means removing the Operator from the board, as future chances to do so aren't guaranteed. Ergo, as the Rebake Operator rocks up into Range 15>, players go rabid due to the feeling of "OH SHIT THE OPERATOR IS OUT OF POSITION GET EM BEFORE THEY GET AWAY" 😅

Once again, ty for feedback on ideas and other ways to remedy C: ❤️

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Thinking about it a lot of this is Alecto trauma lol

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Our group got kited out and failed that one xD

tulip hawk
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"may end up renaming it for our group" is hilarious, please just put an Operator down on the map and label it as "Scout" and see what happens 🙏

indigo oasis
indigo oasis
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Nor is it something that’s gonna apply very consistently- it’s good to keep in mind that Pilot.net regulars are not the most average representation of an average lancer player so this issue may be less prominent in less experienced circles, aka the likely majority

rose hamlet
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Ngl I do wonder if scrambling class names helps break preconceptions

trail pivot
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what do you mean?

subtle nacelle
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lie about npc classes to avoid preconceptions of the corebook npcs affecting playtest

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"This NPC is the obliterator support"

valid plaza
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that's one way to get your players to scan stuff

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scramble all the names up

trail pivot
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ohhh

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no i dont really do that, but i also play in R20 where the display name is whatever default I've come up with,

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and then you have to hover over to determine what their class and templates are

brisk flax
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yeah I think the specific intersection that this lies in comes down to the operator being subject to more substantial changes in mechanical identity compared to, idk, a Barricade, so this is a case where you COULD call it a different Class name and it wouldn't necessarily feel as "deceptive"

keen topaz
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has anyone done much with MBTs and the rebaked ultra template? nothing in there (that isnt optional) that would make it insane? been planning to throw one at my players

wanton maple
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Having finished up my first Rebake combat, including a veteran operatior, (full Thoughts when I have my notes and am off work).

On of the big ones is should the Operator is being pulled in two directions.

Does it want to be a fast hit and striker, or maybe pivot into a stealth focused artillery piece?

Like, I used a veteran operator as a hit and run striker to great effect

carmine idol
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My understanding is that the intention is to be a hit and run striker - though Kai'd have to elaborate on the stealth bit

wanton maple
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Ah, my mistake. I was referring to the core Operator trying to do both at once

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The Rebake is clearly a hit and fade striker

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But still says artillery on the box

rose hamlet
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"Striker" is a vague role anyway IMO. If this was 4E, Rebake Operator would may be called a "Skirmisher". Regardless, Artillery is still a useful label since it indicates

  1. Operator operates at mid-to-long range, away from Overwatches, CQB weapons, and Melee weapons
  2. Operator is frail and will fold if engaged directly
  3. Operator is not innately capable of holding ground. It can hang out outside arm's reach, sure, but again, it'll fold if engaged directly and has few (if any) "do not enter" tools
neon blaze
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bring several, not just to see how they pace even if one explodes but also how they pace together

pulsar hound
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LCP Update

We have a new release ready, this time featuring a finished deployables LCP ! We're looking for feedback on this format - currently, every Deployable has a set of Base traits, and Optional traits in-line with their NPC counterparts, which will let you see what each one does at a glance.

Also included in the main LCP are a handful of bugfixes and a dependency change: As a heads up, all future releases will require the Lancer CORE NPCs LCP to be installed.

Please submit any issues or bugs here - we're much more likely to see them!

GitHub
Release 1.18.0 - Deployables & Bugfixes · Shteb/Kais-NPC-Rebake-LCP

This release heralds a finished Deployables LCP, bringing drones for all your VTT needs! Tagging along is a small round of bugfixes - once again, huge thanks to everyone for submitting issues.
All ...

brisk flax
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I agree with one of the metrics valk is noting here which is "artillery shouldn't be able to hold a point"

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I don't think artillery has to necessarily be "fragile" per se, but when dived upon it shouldn't really be swimming in options the way a striker can have Hunker Down or Barrel Roll

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The operator rebake is aiming for a more mobile and proactive skirmisher artillery as opposed to the other artillery NPCs which are all fairly slow, static, and bogged down by things like ordnance

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This will sort of by necessity require a different playstyle, and I think the range adjustment to 12 will help, but I do expect this means that the operator will be distinct in one other respect which is related to valk's breakdown, which is "artillery is often autonomous"

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Nobody is hanging out with the bombard at range 25, they have other shit to do

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So artillery units are often left to their own devices somewhere to just shoot people

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Snipers get Scout spotters but that's basically about it

rose hamlet
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Tangentially, I do think about how dnd4e really did have about 5 different NPC roles for Guy Who Does Damage But In Different Ways (Brute, Soldier, Lurker, Skirmisher, Artillery) and then Controller and the “sub role” of Leader that got appended to another role

bold crystal
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artillery generally goes 'aw damn' the second someone gets next to it and grapples it(if doing so is actually necessary)

brisk flax
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The Operator meanwhile is going to benefit hugely from playing with the team: getting Priest buffs, soft cover, etc

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I don't think I would necessarily say you need to play it like you would an Assault, but I do think that looking for ways to play in and around the rest of the team will make a big difference

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"An operator on their own" will, ideally, not be a non-threat, but I think treating them to supporting elements will enhance their presence in ways that, say, rainmakers generally do not get or care about

indigo oasis
brisk flax
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That's not a bad way to frame it. I don't think PC side artillery really cares as much about it, but it does make sense, and it reaffirms my decision to give the operator reliable damage

rose hamlet
smoky bluff
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Makes sense, Strikers have to risk themselves under mutiple lines of fire, meaning they will be taking more damage, so they need to match the damage they take with what they put out, artillery will always have their choice of target to shoot as long as they are in range, allowing them to pick off the weakest link without difficulty

blissful lion
# carmine idol So this is kinda something out to the playtest community here - other GM I swap ...

I was thinking of rewriting operator to be more like the spectre in a sense. It doesn't want to take on the whole team, and just wants to single out those who are alone - maybe something like reliable damage if a character is not adjacent to another ally - or perhaps the distance matters. Reliable 2 if they're within range 3/5, reliable 4 if there isn't an ally for 8/10 range or more. So it wants to be on the flank, dodging in and out of cover, etc.
But at that point it's mostly just a striker I feel. But then again, fuzzy line to begin with.

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But in a combat coming up I'm planning on having the operator + other mobility units move around with a bastion and aegis, which might give it some safe havens to avoid being focused and gunned down immediately.

indigo oasis
blissful lion
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Hence I'm not making it a standard NPC that everyone needs to use?

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I don't design with the serious intention that it will become the new norm used by the lowest common denominator

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At a certain point it hinders the ability to write interesting abilities. And I mean there are a litany of abilities that already exist that are very hard to keep track of. I don't know if "check the range between allies" is really such a massive step away from others

smoky bluff
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Time to make the immortal snail npc, it can only kill the pilot so it'll be great deterrent for blackthumb rodeo pilots

brisk flax
solid pilot
smoky bluff
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So far, with the upcoming buffs on my operators, they still seem to be a bit inconsistent for me. Mainly because they just get nuked from orbit by my artillery or striker players if I don't put a multi-structure Defender chew toy for them to put their damage numbers on and play the hiding game with them due to the past stigma of the CRB operator. But they are in a better space than before and are capable of being threatening if the situation is right, with that situation being exposed player mechs and being more than 12 spaces away from any strikers after ending their turn. Any less and they are easy kills for players, meaning with commander and quick march, they need a big enough map to go around the player's space of influences instead of approaching it directly.

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They don't work very well in small maps, they isn't enough space for them to run away

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Unless that map has enough clutter that going through it starts counting as difficult terrain, in which it regains the movement advantage

brisk flax
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I mean yeah I wouldn't put them in small maps for similar reasons to, say, witches

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which is you can just kill it

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fundamentally it IS an artillery unit and artillery likes space

smoky bluff
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Its certainly is a weird one, it's game plan loop is almost akin to the sniper in which it spends their turn doing another action instead of just slinging out damage but for the operator, it's due to its fragility and not it's limitations like loading

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Well, health is still a resource so it is still a limitation

blissful lion
smoky bluff
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But it isn't as obvious as sniper's game plan loop of "I am aiming first turn, firing second turn, loading third turn". There are alot more hurdles and variables that could change the operation of the operator

brisk flax
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So something like "if the operator is shooting at someone who isn't adjacent to anyone else, they gain X" or "if they're at range Y, they gain Z"

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the Strider's long rifle is a good example

smoky bluff
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When i run another operator again, I'm giving him an upgraded hide action for shits and giggles

indigo oasis
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Try running it as a SpecOps or something if you wanna make the Operator more Capable and better at hiding+surviving I guess- the crit damage is a concern but I think the SpecOps template handles it better than Pirate imo

smoky bluff
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True, specs ops operator works better but I'll be damn if you see me trying to rely on that recharge for the invisibility

brisk flax
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so there's a brute force operator adjustment that I haven't messed with because I've wanted to see exactly how things shake out, but one potential lever is to simply increase Strike and Fade's bonuses from +1 to +2 on both ends

smoky bluff
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Oh shit, hard cover for tech attacks, range and melee if i fire and run away?

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Now that's certainly something

brisk flax
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In terms of various metrics, I'm not really interested in increasing speed or (if possible) HP, and I don't really feel like adjusting baseline Evasion/E-Def though that's ALSO a possibility I have considered

smoky bluff
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And with a 10/12/14 for both eva and E-Defense that's pretty good

#

It would be very appealing to use against Nanocomposite players

#

Its probably operator's greatest strength as an artillery

brisk flax
#

An Evasion/E-Def increase would be more consistent and interact less with Accuracy (that is, it wouldn't nullify additional accuracy) and might be the "safer" adjustment if I decided to do that

smoky bluff
#

With how many of my players take autostab, I always appreciate every +2 Difficulty i get tbh

#

Effectively, with the +2 Difficulty, this gives the operator "invisibility" without the actual invisibility. And they can technically get more invisibility

brisk flax
#

"lack of interactability" is probably the CRB operator's defining sin

indigo oasis
smoky bluff
#

Right it's limited

indigo oasis
#

Good if you plan on running multiple operators perhaps, or just plan on giving multiple enemies the template in general

smoky bluff
#

True

indigo oasis
#

Lasts a while too- protocol to last until the end of its next turn, and if you give it to multiple enemies an emergency action you can toss its way just in case

#

I like SpecOps- could be a fun way to test how the Operator interacts with core templates too

#

Which isn’t even a small concern with rebake testing to be fair

#

But it’s something

#

Wrecker Sentinel my beloved <3

smoky bluff
#

From playtesting in tier 2, funnily enough, 14 Evasion/E-Defense thanks to the bug for the operator felt decently evasive enough for me to to work with the operator, i had npcs with slightly lower who were still hard to hit as long as difficulty was in play

#

So maybe a 12/14/16 evasion/E-Defense profile could work

#

I guess it makes a bit of sense, at LL6, 14 Evasion with no accuracy is a 50% chance of hitting or missing

indigo oasis
#

And it makes Strike and Fade’s difficulty more impactful, making Player Accuracy stacking less excessive and more genuinely helpful against the Operator

smoky bluff
#

If consistency is needed, a 11/14/17 Evasion/E-Defense profile to keep it for 50% chance to hit an operator without any accuracy in all tiers could be good

#

That way, accuracy against a Operator is still great since its technically not invisible, but if there is even +1 Difficulty, ouch

brisk flax
#

Invisibility math is worse than "50%" is the thing because it's a 50% miss gate, THEN you have the probability of missing on the actual attack if you pass the invis check

smoky bluff
#

True

brisk flax
#

I am not up on my "cumulative probability" maths, if someone knows the formula to break that down I'd love to see it

heavy pebble
#

If you had a 60% chance to hit before, it's halved to 30% with invisibility added in.

plucky patrol
#

It's pretty simple for two independent events like that, you just multiply the two probabilities together... yeah, that

brisk flax
#

awesome

#

thank you both

#

I don't think I'll be futzing with the operator's defenses or with strike and fade for this go-round simply because A). I want to see how the proposed changes work without too many variables changing all at once, and B). I feel like it's a fine line to ride in terms of tipping things back over into "this fucking sucks to fight" territory

#

defensive strike and fade means the operator is already capable of having roughly 13 in both defenses at tier 1

#

and that's without taking things like cover into account

#

"the operator wants to take cover" is, imo, not an undesirable outcome

smoky bluff
#

Fair enough, I'll run another Veteran Operator with the proposed changes with Commander Hornet and Goliath and see what happens

brisk flax
#

There's one other change that I am going to make, wrapped into the bunch

# 
-Operator Raptor Plasma Rifle range increased from 10 to 12, damage increased to 7/9/11, Reliable increased to 3/4/5
-Operator Trace Drive no longer disables upon breaking heat cap
-Operator Overload Shot adjusted, now a trait rather than a System which reads as the following: "When the Operator attacks with the Raptor Plasma Rifle, they may take 4 heat to treat its Range as Line 12."```
#

which is that the "stops working" clause on Trace Drive is going away

#

As the Operator has several self-heat optionals, I'm going to remove that clause since the overall range reduction is already serving to let people engage with it more regularly

#

and this allows it to more freely leverage things like Fade Generator or Overload Shot

fierce night
#

Is there likely to be an update pushed this week? I'll be running this weekend (game postponed last week)- I'd like to offer feedback so if theres a drop imminent I'll hold off on prep

subtle nacelle
#

Hey Kai, ever though about including the AMR/CPR balance edits you talk about in some of our LCPs?

#

"Kai's weapon rebake"

rose hamlet
#

Sounds like a can of worms waiting to happen

fluid zodiac
#

And a much harder sell to players

brisk flax
carmine idol
#

At what point is a "Player Side Rebake" better off just being additional options with their own names? 🤔

#

Though I suppose if the idea is to nerf things then I guess it kinda has to replace core stuff

surreal zenith
#

it is yes

#

not just nerf, but

errant needle
#

I mean, with concepts discussed here that are out of scope, you're two steps into a Lancer 2nd edition which is WAY out of scope for the purposes of this project. lol

rose hamlet
#

Or just a personal set of house rules

#

I’ve done it, other folks have done it, yeah. But I don’t begrudge Kai for constraining scope, and think that’s healthy for this project

brisk flax
# surreal zenith not just nerf, but

yeah sort of like how with this project being "take existing stuff and refactor it," my ruminations on things like player-side content are coming at it from a similar angle

#

if someone has issues with the Anti-Materiel Rifle, making "AMR 2.0" is not really the solve for that

#

but I'm not really interested in doing a "here is my comprehensive Lancer 2.0 remake"

#

personal house rules are a great place to slot stuff like this into, as noted, and I do know a lot of people have made their own "well here's how I would do X weapon/mech/whatever" type stuff (there are like a million Barbarossa/Atlas 2.0 homebrews out there)

wise creek
#

Ran Shadow of the Wolf's first combat last night using the rebake and figured I'd give some feedback. Just as a note, I'm running the module at LL2 since my group is familiar with Lancer now after our Wallflower campaign, so the balance might be a bit off.

Party Composition:

  • Bonded/House Guard, Enclave/Flash Anchor Saladin
  • Juggernaut/Pankrati, all GMS system Caliban with the Hammer U-RPL
  • Sysop/Exemplar/Combined Arms Balor with Swarm Body/Hive Drone
  • The most vanilla Viceroy with Vanguard 3/Stormbringer 2, Gandiva/Sharanga/Missile Racks, Javelin Rockets

Feedback

Overall Combat Feel
Honestly this one came down to "GM rolls like shit and the players roll hot". A lot of times I'd try to use some CC ability that would end up getting Flash Anchored, which is expected, but then my players would just roll way above the ST for subsequent saves anyway. Despite this, I think Veterans just having Limitless to start with did a lot to make them more threatening, at least psychologically. Even though they only failed a couple times, the Assassin using Spinning Kick, Overcharge, Spinning Kick was like one of the highlights of the session for my players. Me personally, I never really put Limitless on Core Veterans and that led to them feeling very underwhelming in combats, so I think this was a good change in terms of overall feel for the template. Overall, I knocked off like 2 structure and got 3/4 Overcharges, so in terms of attrition I'm pretty satisfied.

NPC Specific

  • Veteran Elite Goliath: It kind of got pinballed around, but that's what Caliban is good at so I didn't mind it too much. Otherwise, despite what I said above the Goliath feels really good. It's definitely a brick shithouse and was effective at eating hits for it's allies. Power Knuckle (when it hits) is great, the damage and knockback are strong but they don't feel oppressive. Speaking of which, I didn't really use Oppression this combat aside from one instance, but in that instance the Sal player ended up using a Full Tech on their turn to use Lock On, so it had a tangible affect on the battle. Overall, the Goliath performed it's role fairly well in my opinion.
  • Veteran Elite Assassin: So my players have made "interesting" choices with their builds. The Sal and Balor only have 1 point in Hull and the Caliban has 4 in Agility (for a total of 9HP). Which is to say, I was apprehensive about who to apply Assassin's Mark on. I settled on marking the Sal and instead decided to use the Assassin for CC purposes. Leap never recharged and it got saved against so not much to say about that. Spinning Kick was the real star of the show, despite it only working like once in the entire combat. Again, the psychological effect on my players of succeeding against a Spinning Kick, then having to do another it again cannot be understated. I only used Shroud Projector once and by then it was too late for it to really have any tangible effect, so no comment. Overall, I should've cleaved more to the Assassin's role as a striker rather than using it for CC, but it still felt good. None of my frustrations came from the actual effects of its systems feeling underwhelming, which I think is a good thing.
  • Mirage: Not much to say about this one. It functions pretty similarly to the Core one and did its job well. Multiplicity helped the Goliath getting onto the OZ and Dataveil had good synergy with Crush Targeting and Pin. Dataveil also indirectly aids the Goliath in their role of "taking hits for the team" since applying it to the Assassin meant that my players were dissuaded from even attempting to hit them, choosing instead to attack the Goliath. Warp Targeting also felt good to use with Crush Targeting just for Difficulty stacking. Overall it felt good to use.
  • Hornet: Got blown away in like the second round by the Viceroy, so not much to say here unfortunately.
brisk flax
brisk flax
#

big stuff here, and by big I mean "it's mostly shit that's already been talked about"

indigo oasis
#

Oh shit I literally just mentioned that Assassin’s Mark change in a different channel asking if it was a good idea lmao

bold crystal
#

ooh hive buff.

#

oh that makes abrade a lot stronger as a general support thing, I like that

brisk flax
#

and I may change it back

indigo oasis
#

Any reason you chose to go for that over a Save Target buff?

#

As is the Save Target is the minimum/average

rose hamlet
#

I like it from a single target control standpoint

#

It makes thematic sense

fierce night
#

Ohoo

indigo oasis
#

I’m a bit surprised at the Wraith Nexus change- from the feedback I recall passing on (aka the only Wraith Nexus feedback I recall seeing over the past month), it dealing burn and having its baseline accuracy be 0 was fine. I’m not complaining I just wasn’t expecting it

brisk flax
brisk flax
#

is what it comes down to

indigo oasis
#

Gotcha gotcha gotcha

brisk flax
#

anyway re: the assassin, the thing about it is that it is the Mark A Guy striker, so playing within that area is something I'd prefer to explore over a more generally applicable buff, part of assassin play is "you need to pick the guy and then focus on them and play around that," so deciding who among the table is going to be the one you spinning kick a lot should be an important choice there

brisk flax
#

"I'm going to mark a target for CC purposes" isn't even, I would argue, BAD Assassin gameplay, it has some strong controller elements

#

but if the control doesn't work, then there's not much you can do about it

#

yes, teamwork is important, an ally can impair someone, but I don't think that "this save heavy unit has low save target" is, like, "great teamwork facilitation" if that makes sense

#

and tying it to the mark means you, the GM, still have to make A Choice rather than "I am 5% better at doing debuffs"

bold crystal
#

1 difficulty is a pretty big impact on saves, which means it has to focus more on that character generally

brisk flax
#

like in general tom's overall philosophy for "giving a PC mech better than average ST" is just "well does it have a lot of saves y/n"

#

it's not a factor that comes with a huge amount of calculus

#

and yeah, +1 Difficulty is objectively a lot more potent than a simple adjustment of the baseline ST would be

#

I'm not discounting the prospect of simply going and being like "okay whatever, 11/13/15 for you"

bold crystal
#

on average it's +3.5 save target, which would be a lot.

brisk flax
#

but I would like to try the more interesting version first

#

like the mark in general is "fuck this guy in particular"

#

resistance to all damage + paracausal, it's already a clear sign of "this is a big problem"

#

Don't like it? Better kill that guy

#

or, hey, did you know Bolster exists?

vale crescent
brisk flax
#

"but I don't wanna" then perish

#

similarly, blind now hits people in the DZ with difficulty on the save to resist it

#

what else, couple of specter tweaks, the change from the sword to threat 2 down from threat 3 has had literally ZERO fucking impact on anything, it is a virtual non-factor, and since it has resulted in NOTHING then I am just going to rescind it, I hate "a change that does nothing" so fuck it, fuck you

indigo oasis
brisk flax
#

barricade can't hurt itself with its own spike barrier anymore, but its allies still can, this is because barricades do not actually understand the concept of friendship or valuing others

#

probably the biggest change outside of Operator mania is that Greater Investiture is now a protocol because I hate prepared actions and would rather carve my own heart out with a knife than ever have to consider how prepared actions interact with anything for a single moment

indigo oasis
#

Plus Specter hasn’t gotten the most amount of feedback compared to other units

#

I think

brisk flax
indigo oasis
#

Ok I was wrong about that then

rose hamlet
#

Specter back with the dnd3.5e whip

indigo oasis
brisk flax
#

mainly the sword reach being a factor has rarely come up, one person said "idk it seems slower?" and otherwise largely it has not proven to be nearly as substantial a factor as things like the change to its damage and how that works re: doubling, interactions with armor, etc

#

lots of feedback on those elements, lots of feedback on the tactical cloak, etc

indigo oasis
#

Any reason the change is being dialed back rather than being doubled down, eg making the Monowire Sword Threat 1?

brisk flax
#

I don't want it to be threat 1

indigo oasis
#

Valid

brisk flax
#

and all things being equal, "this is in line with the CRB" is one less mental overhead transition a GM will need to make

#

I wanted to see "does shortening this have a meaningful impact on gameplay" and the feedback I have colated so far indicates "not really, dipshit"

wise creek
brisk flax
#

there are stat tweaks and things that I don't expect to come up much because it's more "under the hood," like did you know the Hive has less e-defense in the rebake than the CRB?

#

but "this has less e-defense at tiers 2 and 3" is not something that I expect to have as immediate a tangible impact as directly adjusting things that impact an NPC's turn to turn combat performance

#

a lot of the rebake adjustments to weapons have been remarked upon, the monowire sword getting less threat just kinda wasn't

#

it's true that this could be a sample size thing, but I gotta work with what I've been given, and I feel like the amount of specter feedback I've had has been decently thorough enough for me to note, say, if any irregularities in its damage were cropping up, to note issues with the tactical cloak breaking ability not performing where I want it to, etc

heavy pebble
#

Cataphract lasso/impale balance seems more reasonable. I recall now that when using Lasso, I wasn't able to deal trample damage and that made me sad. Consider letting lasso trample if you want it boosted a little more.

#

Might not be needed though. Can still skirmish.

#

Would be funny to force the target to trample allies it moves through

brisk flax
#

trample damage is, in my estimation, more of a minor side benefit of the Cataphract than a thing you really strive for

pulsar hound
#

LCP Update

Heyo folks, we have an up-to-date LCP version for you here !

If you find any problems, please submit them to our issues page for easier tracking.

GitHub
Release 1.18.1 - Master Document 1.3 · Shteb/Kais-NPC-Rebake-LCP

Hello! Less than a day after our last update, we have the changes for 1.3 up and ready for testing. Please refer to Kai's April changelog for detailed information.
Bugfixes

Barricade: Added mi...

#

we had just enough juice left for this one after all the drones

carmine idol
#

And in pretty good time - 80 minutes total is swell doing 😎

indigo oasis
#

Jesus Christo o_o

neon blaze
#

Spoilered in some odd case one of my players stumbles in here and finds out what I have planned for the next encounter but, gosh, I love 2x budget encounters
Winter Scar Spoilers: ||Special Delivery is going to be an absolute mess, actually glad everyone can fly for once||

SPOILER_86033f58a6185170efa5d8698bbca089.png
tulip hawk
neon blaze
#

here

#

oh, wait, the tokens

#

I can't pull up any direct links because it was a twitter link (and some searching doesn't drag any others up unfortunately), but its@unreal light's work, she posted a bunch of tokens for Winter Scar stuff

brittle cipher
#

Think they're in that pack

neon blaze
#

oh yep thats the lot

fringe peak
#

so recenlty ran an ultra hive

#

the synergy with wolf hound missiles is fucking hillarious

#

also the ability to just daisy chain people for like miles with the burn fields and the driving swarm

#

into mrage false idols

smoky bluff
#

Huh, did wraith nexus get a accuracy buff? That's pretty good

#

Changed to Energy though

indigo oasis
#

I asked earlier, Kai said it was to differentiate it from Hunter-Killer nexus

bold crystal
#

also, as a weapon without ally support it makes the 'shredded' effect on wraith nexus more meaningful

twin reef
#

Does Explosive Vent not clear Exposed?

indigo oasis
#

Nope!

#

Gives the pyro a reason to stabilize, and incurs a greater benefit to overheating/exposing a pyro- eats into actions

brisk flax
#

Your options are:
1). Clear heat + Exposed via stabilize
2). Clear heat + weaponize it via Explosive Vents

twin reef
#

Also, Suppression Salvo needs to say "instead".

bold crystal
#

it does?

brisk flax
twin reef
#

Oh, instead is at the end. :V

simple juniper
#

Yes, instead of putting "instead" at the beginning of the sentence, instead you can put it in the middle, or you can also put it in the end, instead.

smoky bluff
#

With the support changes, now you have 2 support builds, the helper support who sits in the 5 spaces behind the backline, and the mobile descant harness fortress

smoky bluff
#

I wonder if the Scourer could use resistance against burn too with ablative plating

#

Might be much though

#

With how much bonus energy is now burn moments i have, I'd think it might be helpful

#

Especially since burn is AP and scourer is well armored for a Striker

smoky bluff
#

Just did an Enhanced Combat Breach and Clear at LL6, All Core Power

Vijaya Gunslinger Vicroy (Used Core)
Charged Stake Orator Chomolungma
Mule Harness/ Prototype Weapon Taraxacum
Displacer Enkidu

Enemy Opfor
Archer
Scourer
Support
Commander Hornet
Veteran Goliath
Veteren Merc Sentinel
Ultra Operator

The players just need to pass the finish line to win, and they did this with a Prowl + Pankrati Talent Chomolungma to straight up walk through the Goliath.

#

Apparently, Prowl just allowed that as long as you went to get more movement after being engaged.

#

Ultra Operator: this was a short sitrep and so i didn't used the SCL and its a pretty small map, but with Supreme Mobility, a Commander Hornet and Trace drive, it has unparralled speed if i can find a good map down the line.

Miniaturized Railgun was very good synergy with an Ultra Operator with Overload shot, it barraged and got 2 crits and hit on the players with deadly while the Overload attack tagged all players with reliable, causing the players to fall into incredibly low health where the other npcs like the scourer and goliath took to structure 2 players.

#

Strike and Fade could've saved the Operator from taking 13 Energy damage from a displacer attack but the field analyst reaction from the Taraxacum allowed the attack to hit it. Very nice.

#

Commander Hornet with Bolster Network was a good combo with the Ultra Operator, It allowed the Operator to dodge 1 tech attack with lock on thanks to the combined effort of strike and fade and bolster network.

#

Priest with empowered investigure was used in the sitrep. But in my panic, I didn't activate it as a Protocol and so i didn't test it. But it would have been useful to save the operator from the Chomolungma who impaired it with orator, who had made their sworn duty to impale the guy on a charged stake. His whole build was around impaling him on the charged stake. He had asura and 2 charged stake systems. Insanity.

#

He popped asura, used brilliance to scan and lock-on the operator, triggering orator 1, and ran towards him. He used overcharge to try and land a disable life support tech attack but missed. Next, he used both full actions from asura to use the charged stakes, the first passed, but the second. The operator failed, even with hornet commander reaction.

#

If it wasn't for strike and fade and Bolster network, the operator would've been hit with a disable life support tech attack

#

Support with the new Remote Cloud. Could've been helpful, but a size 3 taraxacum sat its fat ass in the doorway and prevented the support from coming to assist.

#

Had to move carefully, else it gets engaged and loses all movement

#

I did use a scourer, but nothing of note. He landed a hit, which was nice but nothing else interesting happened

oak acorn
twilit coral
#

ik you said you aren't really interested in feedback that's just like "I think x is too weak/strong and should buff/nerf it. no i haven't used it." which makes a lot of sense. I don't want to do that but there's some optionals I'm afraid to use on my players because, I mean as the document says, getting Stunned and told to skip your turn is rough. This in turn obviously limits feedback. So maybe don't even look at this as feedback but more like a question.

While you've made a lot of the stuns interactable, I'm worried about some encouraged uses of them. I know systems/optionals have been changed because you dislike that they encourage a strategy that is either overly hostile or kinda nonsensical (ace seeking launcher to just hide out of los and not fly around, Scout shredded lock-on and just not using lock-on, avenger being encouraged to off one of their own guys). The encouraged behavior I'm worried about is timing the interactable Stuns such that nobody can actually interact. For example, Spectre using Drain Systems on the last player in the turn order, Transfix in the same vein. The end effect here ends up being very similar to the effect that the rebake was shifting away from. While I'm aware that drain systems hasn't changed, Transfix actually ends up having even more potential for skipped turns.

So while I don't want to say "transfix bad pls fix" or anything like that, I'm interested in your design philosophy for stuff like this. How much should GMs be strategizing, especially with stuff like Stunned? What's the point where stuff like this becomes problematic?

brisk flax
#

My take is that I'm not going to care until it comes up in practice and proves itself to be a huge issue

twilit coral
#

I'll try running a one-shot or smth and splash in some stun systems to get more actionable feedback, but I'm asking for your design philosophy because the behavior of the NPCs will greatly colour the feedback. The experience will be a lot different if I use transfix on the first npc turn and give the players a couple turns to deal w/ it vs. the strategy above

brisk flax
#

My design philosophy with Drain Systems is "it's literally identical to the CRB version"

#

More specifically, turn order stuff like this is a part of lancer and can be done on both sides of the equation, and it's just how the game works

#

"You can make some things stronger by waiting around longer to snipe with them" comes with the expense of "you have to wait around to do it" which means the specter that's deferring their turn to try and ambush the last player to go is a specter that also isn't going and hitting someone with their sword

#

I don't really see it being vastly different than if the stun was EoNT and the specter waited until the last player in line so nobody could go and Stabilize it off of them

#

There's no real way to address this short of mandating "if the specter uses this ability they MUST be the first NPC to go" or something, and I'm not really interested in doing that

bitter lava
#

End of the day, some of those things are things that the GM running the table has to be judicious and make the final call on, rather than the designer
some groups are perfectly fine with dealing with very aggressive, no-holds-barred/no punches pulled play from their GM/DM, some will absolutely despise their PCs getting a single stun or a few structure off of their mech from bad luck

#

For example, if your group is generally very unhappy with an NPC possibly being able to Stun a PC... you can opt to not use that Stun optional?
You'll always know your table best, and end-of-day Kai does pretty damned good on designing stuff to be more than reasonably balanced

twilit coral
bitter lava
#

Also, having seen the proposed Operator tweaks a bit earlier in here, I've adjusted the one I'm going to run in my next combat in my game accordingly; hoping I can provide some good testing points-of-reference

#

(would've run 'em sooner but scheduling is as it is)

manic sky
#

Yeah, I need to edit mine too.

twilit coral
brisk flax
#

Turn order and debuffs is just kind of one of those elements to Lancer, it can apply to more than just Stunned though that's obviously a very standout one, and I don't think there's really anything that can be done about it short of enforcing specific turn order per ability or removing Stunned (which then becomes "well do you also remove Jammed etc")

brittle cipher
#

If I did anything to change turn-order-based effect duration manipulation I think my Sagarmatha player would (rightly) yeet me out a window

blissful lion
#

I'm not sure that "know your table" is as strong a justification for abilities as it is in other games, given that a lot of Lancer is often not a GM and static group of players. The first thing new players are told when they come into the server is to join something like interpoint, and a vast majority of the Lancer I have been a PC in has been pick up games, quite often with new GMs who will do things like javelin rockets + knockback every turn for 7+ damage, despite the fact that you're "not meant to" do that.

vale crescent
#

Pulling punches is a bizarre topic when it comes to balance in that sense. In an optimal sense why wouldn't a rainmaker do that do get the highest possible DPS per turn?

#

And in a system like Lancer I see it as an issue if I should pull punches, say spamming stun mines or not using javelin+KB combo

brisk flax
#

I'm going to come out and say that the issue here that will never actually be solved without removing Stunned entirely is "nobody actually likes Stunned" which is cool and a lot of people have made alt-stunned rules but I will not be doing that

#

I have curated the amount of Stunned in this supplement to what I feel is a "fairer" amount and added more ways to interact with the stuff that exists, but outside of that I'm not interested in doing a "Dazed" type conversion, and I don't think there's any other way that will make people not have this issue

#

I will also say, orthogonally to anything, that I will never give westmarch style games any consideration when it comes to designing stuff unless said stuff is meant with westmarches in mind first and foremost

#

I am actually very doubtful that the majority of lancer being played is via discord server pickup games

indigo oasis
#

Yeah I haven’t seen the itch sales on Lancer’s core book, but if I had to hazard a guess I would presume it outnumbers the population of Pilot.net

brisk flax
#

insofar as I do agree with the top down ethos that GMs should have to do as little amateur game designing as possible to effectively run a game (see: D&D 5E's CR system and how bad it is), "know your table" is unfortunately always going to be a factor in a game with as many moving pieces as Lancer because you cannot design a game like this which works agnostically both for the party comprised of 5 hyperoptimized damage dealers and the party comprised of a minotaur, a lancaster, and a napoleon

indigo oasis
#

And only GMs need to buy the book

brisk flax
#

I guess I'm not convinced there's an enormous weighty calculus being levied on "when do I use Drain Systems" that doesn't exist elsewhere. Like, I also can't stop a GM from focus-firing one specific PC mech down with every unit on the board either

#

"what if I wait to use this debuff to make it more impactful" kinda feels like every other lancer decision to me, tbh

trail pivot
#

i personally don't view things like stunned or jammed themselves as inherently an issue, so much as like the way in which it was applied, which is i moved the inflicting of Stunned as a condition to be more like the CRB Specters Drain systems as a kind of baseline, in that its application is itself already highly conditional (requiring adjacent and a full action tech attack) as well as requiring the specter to keep you isolated while also next to you.

Is it scary as hell? Yes.
Is it something you cna very much play around and receive help with? Also yes.

im perfectly fine with "the victim can't do anything" as a baseline in that sort of scenario since the counterplay to that scenario is very much in line with general specter counterplay

brisk flax
#

which, to be clear, my stance on this is essentially "this isn't much different from someone getting hit with a nasty debuff after they've acted that round so they have to suck it up until their next turn comes around," things like Drain Systems and Transfix bring a somewhat different dimension to it being perpetual-until-fixed but this still basically requires the GM to specifically be doing this with their Specter or Assassin rather than anything else in the turn.

#

like I would say that's actually a pretty big dynamic in lancer that often just sort of passes by a lot of the time which is "should I wait to debuff this guy until after they've acted y/n" because one of those can stretch out a debuff way longer than the other

bold crystal
#

technically you can prepared action cheese transfix, but I don't think the conditions to successfully do that are actually practical.

trail pivot
#

yeah

wanton maple
#

So quick question.

How exactly is the Chaff Launcher optional for the Ronin is supposed to work.

Trait
Ranged attacks against the Ronin while Engaged receive +2 Difficulty instead of +1 Difficulty, and
the Ronin gains soft cover until the start of their next turn whenever they Boost.```

This feels really awkwardly worded. I assume that this mean that Ranged attacks made by people engaged by the ronin, targeting the ronin, get the +2 difficulty.
brisk flax
#

If you are Engaged, with anyone, all of your Ranged Attacks get +1 Difficulty period, regardless of who they're aimed at

#

If a Ronin rebake has Chaff Launchers, attacks made against them by anyone who is Engaged, regardless of who they're Engaged with, receive +2 Difficulty instead of +1

wanton maple
#

Ah Ok, that make sense

indigo oasis
twin reef
#

So a character with CA2 doesn't take any difficulty even when this Ronin is in their face?

valid plaza
#

huh, good question. not sure if it's supposed to be a separate instance of +1 Difficulty or if it's modifying the existing instance of +1 Difficulty that you get from being engaged

twin reef
#

Yeah, it says instead, so if you don't have the penalty in the first place, it can't be replaced.

indigo oasis
#

Ya know, it occurred to me- “what NPCs would wanna use the Loading part of restock drone? There’s only, counting exclusively the rebakes including Avenger, 7 NPCs in the entire roster with Loading weapons, and 3 of them have alt loading methods baked in with one more having an optional for it, and only 3 of them have it part of the base kit.” And then I remembered one of those NPCs was a Sniper and the other was a Bombard and stopped asking this question

#

That would be an interesting thing to trial- pair a Sniper or Bombard with a Support and see what happens

#

Set it up before they fire, let them unload their weapon, and then they move into it and are immediately primed for their next turn

rose hamlet
orchid ledge
#

im stunned pilled. frankly not enough stun in this game

#

people live in fear of stun but how many of them actually fuck with it, build strategies around it?

indigo oasis
indigo oasis
orchid ledge
#

im not saying stun isnt annoying to deal with but the game has built in measures around it

rose hamlet
#

my tolerance of Stun is inversely correlated with the length of time between player turns

surreal zenith
rose hamlet
#

but I can get on board with the Rebake's takes on Stun

fierce night
indigo oasis
tulip hawk
#

I have a six man party and if anyone is stunned they have just signed away 45 minutes of their life to nothing at all

orchid ledge
#

how often do your non-stunned players stabilize to clear it?

indigo oasis
#

Mostly because spacing and being overwhelmed mandates that if they try and do that, they’ve pretty much resigned themselves to lose

vale crescent
surreal zenith
indigo oasis
#

That I don’t disagree with- fair point

vale crescent
#

I can't see a support camping with a sniper though due to inconsistency of recharge rolls for their main drone

indigo oasis
orchid ledge
#

the way i see stunned is that it forces a player to say "please sacrifice your turn so that i can have mine," which is a hard pill for some teams to swallow

#

but even then, i personally dont see it as much of a sacrifice since overcharge still exists

#

its not like theyre giving the whole thing up

vale crescent
orchid ledge
#

i think it makes certain demands of a team's capacity to work together and think ahead; if someone is a stun-risk (like already having HP and structure damage) then they need to be more mindful of where they position relative to the team, and where they go in initiative

indigo oasis
#

I suppose it depends on how you build the support

#

And the Sitrep in general

orchid ledge
#

if their divers just go off to fuck up the backline while theyre at risk of stun then IMO its kind of on the team for playing in a self interested manner

rose hamlet
#

the value of leaving a Restock snack IMO is "shoot, move back 1 space into drone for reload, then move back"

young turtle
#

If i personally had to put one thing that i think makes stun truly suck

rose hamlet
#

then repeat next round

young turtle
#

And hear me out here it’s not actually the lack of turn

#

It’s the autofail on checks and saves for agi and hull

#

Because it means it’s 100% possible to just die

small hamlet
#

I mean for me it's both

#

It's a very "lose-more" condition

orchid ledge
#

yeah stun will fuck you up

young turtle
#

Yeah that’s a pretty common criticism but I’m personally of the opinion that the specific "it opens you to just die" is to me the part that’s actually a problem design wise

orchid ledge
#

if more than a single enemy turn goes by without an ally clearing it then youre in bad shape

rose hamlet
young turtle
#

The few times I’ve had stun click when i ran games was when players cleared it for others

#

Because that’s when it felt like an actual status with purpose

#

The other times it just ends up feeling bad for everyone

#

Gm included

smoky bluff
#

Maybe if the restock drone allowed for heat clear and reload like player restock drone

#

But the npc still needs to choose if they go for HP or reload

orchid ledge
young turtle
#

It’s not always possible

smoky bluff
#

Cuz I've run many operators. Hot Reactors

young turtle
#

And i think framing it as bad play is a bit unfair

#

This is a game which encourages big maps, objectives and splitting up

small hamlet
#

You know I feel ike if there were more ways to clear Stun than another player having to give up their whole ass turn

vale crescent
#

One of the odd things about stun I find, most the time I think it's fine albiet a bit shit. But normally when it comes out it's choreographed and warned... Structure stun is just BS tho...

small hamlet
#

Like if you could still use a Restock Drone even if Stunned.

young turtle
#

And let me tell you the secret ingredient that did end up making stun clear by stabilize to feel possible: having 5 players

rose hamlet
#

yeah. I adapted an Aid action from @stark mulch to try to alleviate the action restrictions (basically, you spend a quick to give an ally a quick-action discount on Stabilize)

orchid ledge
#

i think where im having a problem with that line of thought is that lancer is also a game that encourages defeat as a real possibility, to the point where published modules go out of their way to put loss conditions after each and every combat

vale crescent
#

Aid action is fun

smoky bluff
small hamlet
#

Just add a special clause to it

smoky bluff
#

Tbh which is worst? Actively bracing to prevent stun or stun

young turtle
#

You can lose without being stunned

vale crescent
smoky bluff
#

Ah, that'll do it ig

vale crescent
#

I cleared a stun off an ally last combat i played with Orator 2... Orator 2 is pretty goated...

#

As a fucking free action

#

Supports stay winning

small hamlet
smoky bluff
#

"Can't be Stunned if you are already stunned" plasma gauntlets ftw

orchid ledge
#

it expects a certain level of eating shit

#

im not saying it has to feel good, but it should be something tables normalize

young turtle
#

"This status is rough and unfun for you" =/= "failure is supposed to be a possibility"

vale crescent
smoky bluff
#

I still appreciate a status effects that is just as effective if not more so than jammed

young turtle
#

The problem comes from friction

#

And if the friction feels meaningful

#

In the case of stun I’d argue it doesn’t feel that way

smoky bluff
#

I mean, it's meaningful when the players does it to my npcs

young turtle
#

Jammed you can still do things, it puts an interesting limit on what you can do and asks you to think with that limit

#

Stun asks nothing of you

orchid ledge
#

i just dont agree with that

young turtle
#

Yes, stun tends to be fine when done on npcs because the npcs are all an extension of the GM presence

vale crescent
# rose hamlet my tolerance of Stun is inversely correlated with the length of time between pla...

Reviving this because I had a thought... A bit conflicting

Stun VS low player counts, is much more "fun" because the time between turns is smaller HOWEVER is much less "fun" because a stunned character is much more of the party action economy. A stunned character in a 3 player game is 1/3rd of the party actions, reducing full actions from 3 to 2 is substantial...

Stun vs high player counts is much less "fun" because time between turns is larger HOWEVER is much more "fun" because a stunned character is NOT as much a majority of the player action economy, losing 1 action of 5 is no way near as deadly...

young turtle
#

You’re still giving the gm a meaningful choice and that’s "what will you activate next"

rose hamlet
#

NPCs also outnumber PCs 9 times out of 10 so yeah there's that

young turtle
#

A gm is engaged and asked to make choices far more often than players

orchid ledge
#

stun on NPCs is completely fine yeah

vale crescent
#

Disagree, I need to win /j

#

It's not fun let me use my toys, such as checks notes sap

smoky bluff
#

lancer is a wargame and the GM brought his warband

rose hamlet
smoky bluff
#

Yeah, not playing is not fun

young turtle
#

The "meaningful choice" with stun is straight up "do you give up a turn or does someone else basically give up their turn"

#

Where is the texture

orchid ledge
#

i think that basically is holding a lot of weight

young turtle
#

What choice is being made

orchid ledge
#

theres a lot more a player clearing stun can do than a player who is stunned

young turtle
#

Sorry yeah i guess they can use their standard move

#

What a riot of a turn

orchid ledge
#

and overcharge, and protocols, and free actions

vale crescent
#

Aid action stays winning

smoky bluff
#

Its good when I need to deal with a mech in particular i mean if you can't take your amber phantom turn that your players set, its going to be impactful

rose hamlet
#

yeah, it's still net value to stabilize off the stun but it certainly "locks in" that value

orchid ledge
#

if we're saying using stabilize to clear stun is unfun then we're saying stabilize in general is unfun, which i guess is fair but thats expanding the conversation

young turtle
#

That’s different

#

Deciding when to stabilize is part of the fun

#

That’s a choice

vale crescent
#

I think the definition for fun is a bit wack

young turtle
#

Sorry yeah I’m assuming that people understand I’m being subjective

#

It’s implied

orchid ledge
#

sure i figured that lol

#

same for me, ftr

vale crescent
#

Some peoples fun is "I want to shoot my gun now, I don't care if I'm on 2 HP", some peoples fun is "I want to stabilise now, so I can shoot my gun better without a system trauma"

But then the first player has less fun becaus ethey get structured immediately after and now their gun is broken. At what point is a player not having fun their own consequences?

#

(This is me being devils advocate)

smoky bluff
#

My players (in low player counts) can work around Stunned, because their turns are impactful in small numbers and ever turn matters.

Larger groups don't have that luxury where people might take redundant systems and it's longer too, leading to less fun

young turtle
#

Yes i get it some people enjoy it some don’t but that’s kinda the death of every single argument ever

vale crescent
#

Fair

orchid ledge
#

my only point is that i think stun has been built up as this insurmountably unfun, game killing mechanic and i (me, personally) just think thats an unfortunate exaggeration

vale crescent
#

Yeah...

young turtle
orchid ledge
#

especially when a lot of the times i hear horror stories about it, it turns out the person who is complaining about stun boost+move+initiative'd to the enemy backline and ate shit as they so justifiably deserved

smoky bluff
#

Yeah, it's bad but it's not as bad as losing a npc or your entire mech. Death is the strongest status condition and all that

orchid ledge
#

like im not gonna start redesigning my game because of that

#

and sure there are plenty of situations where a player gets stunned and theres nobody in arms reach to help them--control and recon sitreps, specifically

#

those situations are unfortunate but i dont think theyre all that much in the majority

young turtle
#

I mean I’m also not a fan of painting people who don’t like stun as being "people who played badly" frankly

smoky bluff
#

A lot is usually attributed to bad rolls

orchid ledge
#

and even if they are, the game needs consequences that suck because thats kinda the foundation of games

vale crescent
#

A condition will always be good based on what it does, but also will be good based on how it is implemented. Stun is a godly effect yet is only as good as what gives stun. I heard a lot of "stun is unfun" in my games but I have not really felt or heard that as much after swapping to Maria's Structure/Stress tables

young turtle
#

It’s literally a random chance

#

You can take a shot from a sniper turn one and be stunned if you’re unlucky

smoky bluff
#

Yeah, it's random chance and players love to gamble, so how can people be surprise that there are times you have low rolls

fierce night
#

I dunno, I've just had a bad reaction every time it's happened. I toned down stun a bit, I have never looked back and my players still dread it, so it's still a threat

orchid ledge
#

thats why we're all playing

smoky bluff
#

Stunned is effectively the same as mech destruction for a turn rn

#

Which is why it probably feels extremely bad

young turtle
#

Okay so you recognize that it is NOT just because people play bad tho right? That’s my point

orchid ledge
#

i fully dont expect every team to be tactical masterminds at LL0

young turtle
#

Like broadly

vale crescent
#

I honestly just think the worse part of stun is the base structure damage table

orchid ledge
#

no i dont think that

#

but i do think people should try to play with the mechanic on its own merits before they try to house rule it into oblivion

fierce night
#

games put rails on random though. It isn't just calvinball out there, if something is frustrating players outside of good player friction I think it warrants revisited.

orchid ledge
#

just because they had a couple bad experiences

young turtle
#

Plenty of people don’t like stun and a lot of them aren’t just people who "rushed out of position and exaggerated how bad it felt"

fierce night
#

if lancer played as fast as strike this would be kind of moot, but it doesn't.

rose hamlet
#

I... do kinda think we're going in circles here

young turtle
#

I agree

vale crescent
#

I think we need to rebalance Stun by adding Paralyze as a new condition that inflicts stun BUT you auto fail ALL checks and saves and all attacks against you are guaranteed crits. Then people will stop complaining about stun because Paralyse is mUCH FUCKING WORSE /j

smoky bluff
#

I guess from this conversation, we just need more conditions

vale crescent
#

Bamboozled

rose hamlet
#

I'm down for more conditions and statuses, and stacking conditions and statuses

orchid ledge
#

i thought lancer had too many conditions

vale crescent
#

Gobsmacked, Combobulated, Bamboozled as new conditions

#

Every tech attack should be a condition /j

orchid ledge
#

we need to just brace ourselves for keyword: the game once 2E is released

smoky bluff
#

Now lancer has the Dazed condition (braced downsides without benefits), the Shell-shocked condition (auto-fail all hull and agility checks), and the terrify condition

orchid ledge
#

and i for one am looking forward to it

rose hamlet
#

Tech Attack causes "Hacked" condition; while "Hacked", X is in effect

smoky bluff
#

+2 Heat

vale crescent
#

One of my players had an argument that they'd like a glossary of effects that can be inflicted on your character or that could be taken. And I basically said "hell no" because it would just cause massive amounts of bloat and such

valid plaza
#

like they wanted everything keyworded?

vale crescent
#

Basically

valid plaza
#

that'd certainly be an undertaking

vale crescent
#

My player likes game design and frequently grabs the lancer core rulebook and breaks it on his knee

#

he also likes complaining

valid plaza
#

sounds like a magic the gathering player to me

vale crescent
#

But he's an amazing person and I'm sad he can't attend todays session 😭

valid plaza
#

<- mtg player

orchid ledge
#

i admit that next campaign i run im going to preemptively put a glossary of terms in the player journals before anyone even sits down to play

rose hamlet
vale crescent
#

I don't want javelin missiles X being an effect that is only referenced twice

vale crescent
orchid ledge
vale crescent
#

I avoided that because I don't want to spend 20 hours searching for impaired

rose hamlet
#

I'm with you that each of these things shouldn't be in the book, codified

vale crescent
#

I do kinda just have... "Spare condition 1, spare conditio 2, etc"

orchid ledge
#

i think its reasonable to have an easy to access button on a VTT

#

just to save a headache

rose hamlet
vale crescent
#

There are macros that do that but then I break the macros and I can't be bothered to fix them

smoky bluff
vale crescent
#

Also I have all my conditions apply funky VFX and play sounds and macros tend to break those

#

I have priorities where I really shouldn't but now if someone has a condition and doesn't look like a christmas tree I cry a bit

orchid ledge
#

cant you tie FX to macros?

#

i ask that as someone who has no idea how either works

vale crescent
#

I love it whe nshit like this happens every fucking combat

orchid ledge
#

my foundry is basically a sheet of paper and a marker for all the special tools i use lmao

vale crescent
valid plaza
vale crescent
#

Correct

orchid ledge
vale crescent
#

It basically doesn't work when something that isn't me applies/removes a condition... Alas this is going into foundryvtt talk so I'll shutup now... If you want to ask more about it ping me in that channe;

orchid ledge
#

oh yeah tru lol

brisk flax
#

At the risk of resurrecting this argument, I have held and continue to hold that 90% of the problem people have with stun comes from it being a structure damage result. If stun was purely a thing that was the result of specific abilities or systems, I think it would be much less remarked upon in general

#

Is stunned, the condition, harsh? Yeah, I don't even disagree that it has a lot of weird extras I don't think are needed like the lowering of evasion and the check/save fails, "you lose your turn" is pretty strong enough. But most of the "I fucking hate this" stories come from someone getting stunned as a result of taking damage, and in that regard you really can't argue it's "their fault" or a bad gameplay decision or whatever because everyone's gonna get shot, it's a shooting game

#

I have talked about system trauma before and how I don't think it's very well implemented, I'll go a step further and say: I think structure damage tables in general are kind of questionable

orchid ledge
#

i dont blame anyone for getting shot in a shooting game. i just think players should plan more around getting shot than they are naturally inclined to do

#

its natural for people to play assuming that all will go according to plan, and theyre understandably frustrated when it doesnt

#

but it will anyway, and a habit i try to pass on to my players is to expect that

#

everyone fucks up and makes bad plays, in fact i have made that the entire foundation of my identity as a tapletop gamer, but its a consequence you gotta be aware of and keep in your mental calculus

#

assuming you play RAW, which i mostly do

brisk flax
#

I think having to plan around a stun spiral randomly happening kind of sucks to the point that I think lancer would be a better game if it didn't exist frankly. The consequence of being shot is "you have to spend repairs and are X steps closer to being destroyed"

#

Death spirals are usually a thing a lot of designers either try to avoid or are very, very specifically leaning into for a reason (like Red Markets)

#

"The Specter used a spooky system on me and now I'm Stunned" is imo significantly better of an implementation because it's tied to certain abilities and it has more texture to it than "well you got randomly unlucky"

orchid ledge
#

i agree with that

brisk flax
#

As dull as it sounds, I think "getting structured impairs you EoNT" would be good enough as a "consequence" if you really needed one, and then you just go "last structure destroys you, the end"

#

There's a tension in the structure damage table being a random factor and therefore damage being less "predictable," but "my mech randomly died mid mission what do I do" is such a commonplace complaint/question that I have personally designed multiple things specifically to address that or soften that blow

#

And I think at a certain point, I have to step back and go "maybe the problem is this just kind of sucks"

orchid ledge
#

i respect that, my table just embraces the element of bad luck and its impact on the game

#

i do think thats just part of the hobby, quality of game's mechanics nonewithstanding

#

mid combat death is rarely a welcome element in any game but its something that kinda has to be there for the tension you described

#

though im not gonna sit here and argue that the structure table is perfect, it aint

#

but its the structure table i use

brisk flax
#

I think that the bad luck element is fine, but it's more like that already exists in the NPCs themselves, getting hit by a Demolisher hammer etc

#

I go back to 4E which didn't have a structure equivalent but you still had a lot of "ow oof my luck" moments if you got snagged by some nasty effect, or an NPC rolled hot on recharge stuff, etc

orchid ledge
#

yeah i mean listen if people want to ditch the vanilla structure chart for somethin else then im not gonna sit in judgment. but i dont think even damage-based stun is as unsolvable a problem as its reputation has suggested

#

but thats me, i like engaging with vanilla rules as a matter of habit and trying to make them work

#

even if they suck

#

i got dunked on in GM chat a while go cause i dont mod skyrim

#

like i needed that in my life

rose hamlet
orchid ledge
#

yet another trait i share with christ

bold crystal
indigo oasis
indigo oasis
#

Imo, if you wanna put a band-aid on it while also trying to imagine something that satisfies all groups equally… you gotta prompt Power at a Cost. It’s not a perfect or codified by rules fix, but it is a fix that can be adapted to the situation as the context sees fit. It’s at least something- it’s not easy to find a fix out there you might like. This is GM dependent unfortunately, so uh, who knows how. Also I am realizing this advice is pretty much “just don’t run it like that” but Stun seems to be something that’s easy to have a unique opinion on and the consequences of which depend on the group, so uh. Yeah.

#

Idk, it’s easy for me to forget that Power at a Cost exists and is very much a codified part of the rules. Lancer is an RPG, it’s gonna have variances, but at least using Power at a Cost for mitigating consequences people don’t enjoy doesn’t stray too far from the intent and vision of the rules.

fringe peak
#

so tried out demolsiher as a big boss

#

it worked very well

#

put in a small hallway, paired it with defender and support guys and with it's short cycle lance it creating this horrifying horror monster vibe as after the players got past it. They had to desperately try and slow it down

#

and the amazing synergy beween it and barricade were fucking awesome

brisk flax
#

for the reasons I outlined earlier

#

I do not want NPCs casually clearing heat, heat taxes on the NPC end are meant to be significant costs they incur for doing a thing and I do not particularly want to open up the prospect of gaming that

bold crystal
#

does that also go for the reload? I can't imagine why it wouldn't, but.

brisk flax
# bold crystal does that also go for the reload? I can't imagine why it wouldn't, but.

Too casual reloading CAN be an issue, and I think the CRB version of Moving Target sort of exemplifies how, but as noted upthread, the NPCs that are most likely to benefit from reloading this way are the ones that generally have ordnance weapons and thus won't find it nearly as convenient to do so. A lot more NPCs in the rebake have heat stuff than in the CRB, every veteran has Limitless, Ultras have potential heat costs to repair destroyed weapons or on certain optionals, etc

#

"Someone has to move to trigger this recharge 5+ free reload" is a thing that is significantly less game warping than "someone gets to have a free overcharge" imo

bold crystal
#

actually my question is silly because I fully forgot that the support's restock drone can reload. nevermind!

brisk flax
#

yeah, I mean the rebake version can

#

it's come up before "what if the restock drone could clear heat?" and just as last time, my answer is a pretty decisive "not interested"

#

even if all of the NPC side heat tax stuff was off the table, I think that overheating NPCs is already generally an avenue that requires some real commitment to get a lot out of it, moreso than just straight up damage in some cases, and I don't think the game would benefit from a way to go "actually this guy clears 4 heat" or whatever

neon blaze
#

NPC heat caps are both rough in terms of how typically large they are for some, but also because of how break points work

#

the difference of 1 heat can mean a whole extra quick action

bold crystal
#

which is less of a problem with damage because you're(usually) rolling dice about it (ie; the 'oh this asshole is at 1 HP' is an expected outcome)

neon blaze
#

its why I've really come to appreciate Limitless recently, to the point of being overzealous with it - it breaks the break points

#

I know one of my players kind of gets frustrated with hacking because they're unable to overheat anyone, even though frankly hacking has never been about the heat really so much as an external pressure on top of the control effects that says "waste a turn stabilizing or i'm gonna boil you", but Limitless not only smoothed that but also brought a lot more interesting interaction to the board itself

#

I got an NPC meltdown! me!

#

that wasn't because a Dusk Wing decided to take a Burst Launcher and infinite Plasma Cutters!

#

so yeah, I'd probably say broadly NPCs have it good in the heat department as is (and arguably too good - I know I kind of futzed with the idea of homebrewing overheat rules for non-stress NPCs to being "meet cap" rather than "overflow cap" at least in regards to non-rebake NPCs, not actually looked close at raw stats for the rebakes) and giving them any sort of easy out for that just makes Heat basically a non-factor in any game its in

smoky bluff
#

Yeah, NPC's heat caps are insane. I'm glad that the rebake leaned in more into npcs making use of said heat cap to make it easier for hackers to get a easier meltdown

brisk flax
#

I think probably the strongest usecase for restock drone reloading is "the Assassin has a Devil's Cough Shotgun and is going to make it everyone else's problem"

smoky bluff
#

Hmm, i have an idea

orchid ledge
opal folio
#

in my last combat a vet pyro overheated itself with its attack and triggered a dual vorpal

#

1 stress and 2 structure gone in a single attack. my player appreciated that one

fringe peak
#

devil's cough shotgun is very funny

#

also i used it once mixed with the avenger

#

it was very funny

brittle cipher
#

Finished this fight!

Juggernaut and Auto-Repair both came up this time, and both felt good in play. Juggernaut I basically just picked the impaired, but Auto-Repair I did have to think about, especially in the context of "might overheat" vs "I can't fade generator".

Fade generator was solid, functioning as a very good "get me out of here" tool. Blinking behind LOS blockers after getting shot was pretty fun, and emergency invis also helped.

Nova Missiles: I actually remembered the trigger this time, and damn these are good with the SCL. SCL > EOT Nova Missile means that passing the SCL save still didn't guarantee safety from losing a structure.

SCL: With the Operator actually getting shot this session, I now have an opinion on the structure/stress spooling - namely, I think its fucking sick. It meant that, as the fight went on and the players were able to focus him more, the Operator recharged the SCL quicker, and really contributed to an escalating tension. It also combined with Limitless in a fun way, in that (as things got closer to the end), I'd overcharge in hopes of stressing myself to help charge the lance. Basically got to do the "this is the last fight of the mission so now I can ball out" thing that players do, while also selling how dedicated to killing the PCs the Operator pilot was, even before Self Erasure went off - he'll burn out his own reactor just for a fucking chance.

Finally, I leave you with the map post-SCLing. Craters are where the Lance carved through (OSR Combat 6).

SPOILER_Screenshot_2025-04-04_173026.png
fringe peak
#

SO i wanted to talk about an interesting thing that deniabl asset did on my game

#

there were operators with parting gifts and deniable assets

#

so they would self destruct, then use the deniable asset teleport with telefrag to close in as massive walking time bombs

#

it did leave to a really fun way to play operator, operators were also paired with rpv aegis buddies

#

which led to some creative mobility

#

funnily enough as well, the rpv aegis used projected shield to crate heat zones from ring of fire

bold crystal
fringe peak
#

self destruct causes you to explode destroying you

#

so since erasura sepcifies destroyed...

brisk flax
#

like, there's no wreck, nothing to repair, doesn't work that way

fringe peak
#

ah damn

#

then i rant hat wrong sadly

#

i weill say playing an rpv that doesnt' care of it survives let me be very liberal with telefrag, and i found myself getting better use out of overload as well

ancient forge
#

Alright, finally got to finish the fight started a couple weeks ago, wallflower combat 1, mission 3 gonna spoiler it and take a moment to finish the write up, I’m just barely within non-nitro word limits

#

||Modified extraction with endless reinforcements, for context. It ended up being a little odd, so I think the feedback is gonna be light this time.
Party was a Stort, Black Witch, Hydra, and Iskander.
Opposition included Demolishers, Goliaths, Breachers, and both types of Striker Grunts, all rebakes and all arriving in reinforcement waves of Demolisher, Goliath, ranged grunts, or breacher and melee grunts.
The players pretty quickly discovered the potent combination of Celestial Reordering and Iskander’s core power, which meant that past the start of the fight the grunts, through no fault of their own, had much more limited impact.

Striker Grunts: the rifle load-out was useful for putting some pressure on the PCs and punishing them for focusing so hard on the Goliath. The only attack I managed to make with a melee grunt ended up missing, unfortunately. Once the Iskander’s core activated, they were mostly used for applying lock on.

Breachers: getting to do lesser attacks with the shotgun as part of the breach ram made them feel a fair bit more menacing; Although I had pretty bad luck on the rolls, it still seemed to make the players worry about them more. Still managed to use one to structure and shred the Iskander with its normal attacks.

The Goliath did its job of drawing fire very effectively. The first one to deploy died without doing a whole lot besides that, getting focused down by the Stort, but the second managed to just get a structure damage in on the Hydra with its power knuckles. Not that those changed much that I can tell, but overall the goliaths felt impactful despite having a short time in the fight.

Demolisher: the hammer never successfully hit, but the idea that it could hit was something that left the players very cautious about it. For my end of things, it felt very good to have the Earthshatter as a secondary option, it let it effectively catch up when faster players left it behind, albeit with less impact than the hammer||

brisk flax
ancient forge
#

||They also brought a core battery, so it's likely grunts won't get to do much until next mission. But we'll see how things shake out||

bitter lava
#

Finally got to run my combat I'd been prepping for a hot minute with the rebake NPCs and it went great!

Sitrep was a modified Holdout (basically*"Objective: Survive"* with the caveat that a few NPCs had Pirate optionals to try and incapacitate and capture + extract with PC pilots)
I used the rebaked Operator, Priest, Witch, Striker and Controller Grunts, and rebaked Goliath within the comp.

  • The Operator rebake with some practice and template usage feels nimble and hyper-mobile, but also pressured to get in and brawl. I had Veteran and Ultra (both rebaked) on it among other things and the Operator optional from the former with the NHP copilot is very cool and worked out well when my players had them on their last legs.
  • Goliath works well, and is still a big mean HP-tank that is designed to soak attention and pin down a PC mech. Worked well.
  • Priest rebake feels real nice to me with its shielding ability changes and more synergistic design approach. The extra tech defenses on it also helped dissuade my resident heatgunners from going too ham on the invade spam.
  • Striker Grunts are great, love the protocol charge-in movement option and the stat shifts based on weapon equipped (I ran them as melees).
  • Controller Grunts felt like good nuisances to pad out when my Witch wasn't able to really do their thing for any reason. Not oppressive, but painful enough to demand notice.
  • The rebaked Witch is great. All-around great offensive invades unit with my enjoyment spiking on getting to say "Hey, (player)- shoot your friend for me there please ~"

All in all, the rebake changes made the fight and I think I will use them as much as possible going forward.

dire shadow
#

Hopefully I’ll have something more concrete after the current mission I’m running, but as it stands things are running very smoothly with the rebakes (current opfor veteran bombard x 2, cataphract x 2, archer x2, controller grunt x2, striker grunt x 2) and they’ve put my players on their back foot in a way opfors normally don’t

silk flicker
#

Ran a playtesting combat with the remake (really just re-running Solstice Rain stuff at Tier 2), some impressions, from the Holdout Sitrep:

Assault: The Accuracy on their rifle against targets not in cover lead to some interesting interactions: firstly, they are now very threatening in close range, as this negates the usual difficulty from ranged attacks while engaged. Secondly, Shield of Blades becomes very useful against them; the melees could be safe from the assaults by simply engaging other threats.

Hunker Down being less ‘free’ is also good. The loss of reliable does make them a bit less, well, reliable, but they definitely make the players think more about cover.

Hive: Gambling each round to see if you can fill the map with swarms was funny, but a single moving swarm is a lot more interesting, and makes them more active threats. Electro-Nanite Payloads is a pretty brutal optional, as it makes clearing the burn harder too.

Support: Not too much to add, they’re still pretty nifty. Rebake changes are good

Bastion: Allies being able to reload their grenade launcher is a fun feature, and fits with how closely they wanna bundle up with the Bastion. Deathcounter being less of a surprise is good.

Bombard: As brutal as ever - putting one of these in a Holdout is fun and very mean. The changes largely just reinforce the importance of spacing when these are on the field. Them being size 2 also makes them more able to bully bigger characters with their optional air earthshaker rounds, so that’s fun. The bigger size doesn’t make them too much easier to hit though, as they can still sit on the other end of the battlefield.

Pyro: I fucking love the new Firebreak Shield. It burns people now! It’s not an awkward adjacent line! Id forget to use it often, but I never forget with this one, as it’s actually damn good now.

Priest: Still feels like a priest, the extra bells and whistles are nice, I prefer the niche of defending against tech attacks over previous Dispersal Shield’s weird 1d3 charges. Empowered Investiture is a fun optional that bolsters their identity, and it being a Protocol to still let them do a couple more things before getting stunned is nice.

#

Whenever I’m first running Lancer for people and they see a base Pyro, they always just assume they’ll get burned by the big wall of fire, so this actually being true feels good

brisk flax
#

people see the name, expect a big wall of fire, and what they get is a forcefield

#

it also helps the Pyro zone off areas better and synergizes with the flamethrower, so there was practical consideration as well, but "why the fuck doesn't this set people on fire?" was a big part of that particular change

neon blaze
#

its like the number one thing i have to remind people about with pyros so far

#

even people who are otherwise pretty versed in the game, so yeah, its def simpler to just lean into expectations

plucky patrol
#

The Comp/Con typo definitely doesn't help

smoky bluff
#

Ran another sitrep against some players

Control

Players

Ramjet combined arms Drake
Hyperdense armor Kasai (from Vacation to DSR)
Duskwing Stuncrown Stay of execution Lich

Opfor
Support
Scourer
2 Grunt Strikers
Vet Elite Bombard
Barricade

Reinforcements
Demolisher
Operator
Scourer
Specter
Bastion

NPCs of note:
Bombard vs Operator. Having 2 tough targets with hyperdense melee mech and a Drake, the Bombard performed better by forcing them to make bunker buster saves to break through them, and when they both ended up side by side to defend a control zone, the Bombard was the one always putting in the pressure.

Operator was able to teleport around pretty quickly and fast thanks to telefrag, however, the Drake (of all things) succeeded on a telefrag roll and the operator rolled max damage on the telefrag self damage, it went to harrass the lich but then died to a crit from unraveller, which transported him to the shadow realm.

The situations was more favorable to the Bombard than the operator, the operator had to work very deep into the combat zone and didn't had any help due to the mass of mechs dedicated to stopping the other 2 mechs from scoring points. While the Bombard got to sit behind a extrudite Spike barrier barricade bodyguard who basically did nothing after building his sandcastle.

I didn't play optionally as well with the operator, rushing directly to the Lich instead of keeping my distance with the range 12 band before strike and fading away so yeah, operator is an Artillery mech that isn't as easy to use as a Bombard or sniper or Rainmaker. Where you can park in one space and leave be. You got to actively plan your engagement and to mitigate as much risk as possible and taking every advantage you can get, from the slight range, to insane burst of speeds with optionals and focus fire on weak targets that don't have armor so you gain the most value from the operator

#

Scourer: I keep forgetting to resist energy, causing one to die to unraveller but so far they are nearly no changes from Base. The optionals rarely came up even though there was rubble scattered by the demolisher and Bombard, I didn't used melt. Even though it probably would've been a good decision. I have to ask, the burst 2 area that triggers once the item from melt is hit only triggers the burn and supercharged and not as if the thermal lance attacks all targets within a Burst 2 area correct?

#

Most of the time, my target was big enough to shoot without the use of melt, and this helps get the most damage possible thanks to supercharged shredding the target.

#

Maybe i could have given better optionals for my scourer like pulse laser and supercharger to pin down both heavyweight mechs, it's certainly feels like the scourer was better off only using melt against drone heavy teams with pulse laser to get the most value possible.

#

Feels like it situational to trigger melt burst 2 area since after hitting the target object, nothing else happens to the characters within the burst 2 until the next round, i could've just shot the guy for even more energy damage and go to hit them for 8 Energy, burn and maybe more. Its certainly an optional that seems catered to only deal with drone heavy character builds, Hopefully testing down the line would allow me to see it through.

#

Support with the new remote cloud: extremely great. It's certainly wasn't exceptional. With a Remote cloud boost and nanocloud from support, even a grunt striker couldn't succeed the system save from a wandering nightmare with a 9 and 7 and so just straight up died. The support providing so much value to the team with remote cloud, helping the scourer succeed on saves against the lich who threw stay of execution onto them but they kept succeeding against it and i felt like I'm doing a lot with just sealant gun and remote cloud. Never gotten a restock drone refresh roll though, but i'm happen enough to be succeeded saves with relative ease that my players were subjecting my npcs to while standing within remote cloud.

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Demolisher with drag cable: good but so far, but the demolisher is so slow that the only character in the sitrep getting drag cabled is the ones willing to close the gap with the demolisher and had 14 Evasion so he wasn't going to get hurt any time soon. I did forget about the latch drone on the demolisher. If it wasn't, for that. Could've hit them.

smoky bluff
#

Idk if its just me but I always seem to have a extremely high mitigation build in my games

#

which always means operator will not perform well

#

unless i build around that

rose hamlet
#

It’s very hard to go wrong with armor stacking IME as a player, yeah

rose hamlet
smoky bluff
#

Map of size 30 x 25

rose hamlet
#

Damn I like the layout

smoky bluff
#

I took it from someone somwhere in the server. I can't remember who

#

The_warlynx1 made the map

smoky bluff
#

Oh right, for the vet bombard's optional, that being danger close. If you take that option. You miss out on more damage if you make use of it more no?

#

Cuz there were moments I just went "fuck it, friendly fire time" to get even bonus damage out of my bombard

young turtle
#

Its also not impossible that the specific goal of playtesting these npcs skews what people bring

rose hamlet
#

Yeah, though ideally players will build something they would normally build as part of the playtest application requirements

blissful lion
young turtle
blissful lion
#

I wonder if the vet trait could be more to do with knockback - being able to move one character in the area a few spaces before or after the attack. Needs to be willing if it's before, needs to be hit if it's after.

dire shadow
#

Yeah I just told my players we were using the rebakes now and started with an opfor of npcs they’d already encountered in crb form + striker/controller grunts

brisk flax
#

if you want to shoot an ally you can, if you don't you don't have to

brisk flax
#

To unpack this a bit: there's definitely some encouragement to be had with "the bombard shoots its own allies," the flare drone tacitly sets it up as a baked-in combo, a lot of people understand the "shoot a berserker to make it free attack someone" combo, but I think a lot of the time the calculus between "do I want to chance dealing 9 damage to one of my own guys to deal +X damage to these other guys" isn't as clear cut

#

Danger Close is a "may" clause, it lets you decide if you want to do that or not, that's the buff

brisk flax
brisk flax
vale crescent
#

Just noticed there's no bookmarks in the newest master document

brisk flax
rose hamlet
#

I don’t know how you prep the doc but I can maybe rec some export options that prepare pdf bookmarks if you’re interested? Depends on your software

brisk flax
#

then I go "export to pdf"

vale crescent
#

Wanna check, does archers flush out trigger reactions?

#

Or more importantly... Is it involountary movement? I assume it is, but I'm curious as I know it has inspiration from XCOM and the fun part about it is stacking suppression with flush with 2 guys... But then if that's the case it's probably too easy for a sentinel to suppress and follow up immediately with flush

bold crystal
#

it's not clear if it's involuntary, but it does specifically say it doesn't trigger engagement or provoke reactions, so.

vale crescent
#

Oh I am blind

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Lmao

#

🙃

indigo oasis
# indigo oasis So far we're on Round 3 and only 2 player turns in and 1 NPC turn, and unfortuna...

The combat has finished, going to continue on this:

  • Witch: Unfortunately Blur was not relevant despite the amount of heat+attacks running amok- dunno how this was managed. However Petrify definitely held a stage presence on the Swallowtail- the ability to clear one condition caused by it to clear the whole effect never came up though, meaning it pretty much behaved like the CRB version. The witch's feel like they modify how its effects follow up rather than how they trigger, so PEBCAC being around definitely made seeing what changed a lot harder. It got focused down hard to my surprise.
  • Hive: Died after serving it's purpose. Overall, having 1 Razor Swarm definitely felt nicer to track and more fair on my end.
  • Sentinel: Once again going to mention how valuable being able to peek over larger terrain was on making the Sentinel have a greater stage presence- managed to structure the Pegasus one more time before going down. Wrath Lock with the boost also made me psychologically want to use only once, treating it more as an engagement tool rather than something to use instead of Overwatch. This is probably a good thing but thought I'd mention it. It was real scary to run from
  • Scourer: Kinda didn't do much before dying, but second last to die.
  • Avenger: The doubling of the Slug Pistol damage instead of adding damage to all attacks definitely made the damage far more reasonable while still being threatening. The guaranteed fail against Erupting Shrapnel and extra effects really forced my Zheng player into uncomfortable positions as he was bullied by the Avenger. Unfortunately Cycle of Violence never triggered as finding the right circumstances to use it was difficult, especially since turns where I would use it instead were turns I just overwatched. This is unfortunately not exclusive to this rebake, instead also inclusive of the CRB version, so not much to say. Judgement SHotgun's to-hit being 0 also felt fun to work around.
  • Veteran: Yet again, Limitless good
#

This was all on v1.17.2 of the LCP, but the next combat will be on v1.18.1, reflecting the recent main document updates

indigo oasis
smoky bluff
#

Engineering for archer

brisk flax
vale crescent
#

So if it's voluntary movement... does that mean an immobilised or slowed target can't make the movement?

fringe peak
#

i will say running the grunt controler and defender they got alot of postiive feedback

#

one of the playres actually used electro chaff to thier benefit

#

i did hvae players dislike rebound scan and i kinda just went 'you do realize it's like the equibalent of getting hti by a marker rifle right'

#

mainly they don't like the ignore cover thing but the scout lost so much defensive power it's kinda waranted

brisk flax
#

there's no form of defined involuntary movement (that is, push, pull, knockback, etc) that's "the target must move X spaces or Y," hence the additional qualifying text of "no engagement or reactions," but it's involuntary nonetheless

vale crescent
#

The only thing that was throwing me off was confusion over intent (because it was mentioned it was inspired by xcom) and flavour... which shouldn't muddle up anything st all because the rules say what the rules do

brisk flax
#

I can't remember if I ever said "yeah this is based on XCOM" so much as it being convenient convergent evolution

#

Regarding intent, I think that things which force players to potentially trigger overwatch et al involuntarily are best handled very sparingly, otherwise it essentially turns into free attacks

#

This goes doubly true in the kit of an NPC that can apply threatening reaction attacks themselves

#

Puppet Crasher on the ultra allows it because it's an ultra thing and gets to be a little more juiced, but if Flush Out worked that way it'd be pretty rough

twin reef
#

Yeah, if it provoked reactions, then it'd always be better to just take the shot.

twin reef
#

Also, bringing in a rebake Hornet against a player with Superior by Design feels like a "shoot your monks" thing.

indigo oasis
#

You gotta throw Hives and Pyros and Scourers at your Ghengis/Lancaster players in a similar vein, it’s enrichment

rose hamlet
#

or prepare the Opfor independently of the players, and if players happen to benefit (or build in reaction to the opfor) then good for them

It's the classic choice between the “Character sheet as wishlist/for GM reaction” and “character sheet as preparation/player reaction” philosophies

indigo oasis
#

Well then you gotta run a burn themed combat once in a campaign at the very least

rose hamlet
#

I'll decide my own obligations haha

indigo oasis
trail pivot
#

the only burn themed combat i ever ran (2 total) where the burn was just a method of facilitating the enemie's win condition (burning through a series of entrenched obstacles) and a fight with a hive/goliath mixture

indigo oasis
#

Ya know with the rebake I think there’s only 5 enemies in the entire roster that can deal burn, and one of the NPCs (Witch) can only do it as a Limited 1 option

#

The rest are the Pyro, Hive, Aegis, and Scourer

#

5 could be higher than the CRB but I feel like I remember the CRB having some other NPCs with burn optional

#

Yep, Berserker has Superhot and Engineer had Arsenal. So all in all that’s 1 less NPC with burn access

#

So Nothing of value was lost

#

(Arsenal was not great and Superhot is now a pyro exclusive so it still exists)

brisk flax
#

Any opfor with a Pyro in it can be a burn themed opfor if you play it right

orchid ledge
#

this is the 'burn' opfor. this is the 'reliable' opfor. this is the 'why can everyone move 8 spaces' opfor

#

it started as me gently reminding players of certain mechanics they might have forgotten ("you guys havent grappled in a while, lets fix that") and now its just kinda my baseline starting point

#

if i ran a different kind of campaign id probably do what orange often suggests and ramp it up over the course of a mission, mario style

#

introduction, test understanding, test mastery

#

but i do not run that kinda campaign so i just fire from the hip

#

fuck i love mario

#

that little shit really teaches you all you need to know about lancer if you think about it

surreal zenith
#

jump around crushing turts, as Union intended

bitter lava
#

though I've also found myself in the position of having to leverage NPCs (before rebakes and now after) with a lot more reliable damage or save-based effects because of having a couple very agile PCs

orchid ledge
#

to bring things back to the thread at hand, one of the reasons why i enjoy kai's rebakes is because the overall design philosophy seems to focus on what an NPC's schtick is and emphasize it, which makes such opfors more impactful

bitter lava
#

yeah exactly

orchid ledge
#

i think it rules that the "rebake meta" has led to an AGI buff

#

at least based on what ive heard testers here say

#

i have had so many players in the past that woulda fuckin loved that

#

fondly remembering the mourning cloak who thought he could jaeger kunst backflip boost etc. around an archer with impunity

#

prob the closest ive come to having someone rage quit

bitter lava
#

oh yeah same

#

though it was an Amber Phantom player with 18 evasion also trying to swooce on by an Archer, funny enough

orchid ledge
#

its always the archer

indigo oasis
#

Archer has not changed a lot

orchid ledge
#

ha yeah fair enough

#

but the blanket tuning of native accuracy seems to help overall

#

out of all the many changes in the rebake, thats the one i find myself commenting on most whenever i do a test

#

i think foundry's automation has blinded me to just how many rolls that accuracy has saved

#

cause i just kinda click and forget

#

it wasnt until it was taken away that i started being like 🤔

trail pivot
#

yeah ive noticed that a lot when i talk to people, how often foundry has caused them to not think about/ponder the math

#

though to be fair a lot of people don't ponder the math even when they're doing it

orchid ledge
#

it was most glaring on the sniper

#

i admit i was lowkey a little mad, i was like "what the FUCK is with my dogshit luck" and i actually started clicking on the dice results

#

i think its very healthy for the game though

trail pivot
#

yeah you really notice it when you think on how CRB sniper is basically rocking +6/8/10 to hit

brisk flax
#

gotta get a lock on buddy

orchid ledge
#

lock on goes from being something you dont remember to do until after you skirmish, to being a real play maker

small hamlet
#

If my Operator had Deniable Asset and Spec Ops, could the pilot bail out with their NHP friend before it teleports and explodes?

indigo oasis
#

It’s specifically before Self-Erasure, and because the mech is annihilated via self destruct before it can trigger, I’d say “no, but it’d make sense for you to do it anyway if you want”

bold crystal
#

deniable asset is the 'teleport before self-erasure goes off' one, not the veteran optional that lets you self destruct

indigo oasis
#

Oh wait never mind

#

Got confused- anyway since they’re both immediately before Self-Erasure you choose the order of the effects, so yes

small hamlet
#

I'm just envisioning this super cool pilot who bails out with their NHP and then teleports their mech into you

bold crystal
#

yeah personally I would say you can bail out either before or after the teleport.

vale crescent
#

TBF Nothing is stopping you from just saying they do that

#

At that point it's mostly flavour

small hamlet
#

Oh wait "immediately Eject before Self-Erasure"

indigo oasis
#

The teleport is also immediately before self erasure as well to be fair

small hamlet
#

Hmmmm

indigo oasis
#

If 2 effects have the same trigger and occur immediately, you tend to be able to reorder them as you see fit

small hamlet
#

Actually since this character is meant to be recurring, it might make more sense for them to use the teleport to get further away from the players.

indigo oasis
#

Well they could eject then teleport the mech

#

Oh wait “reaction” and “before self immolating”. The trigger for Deniable Asset is the mech destruction not Self-Erasure- meanwhile Spec Ops’ trigger is before Self-Erasure

#

So never mind, the teleport happens first

indigo oasis
#

Cross classing the rebake Eye of Midnight onto an Avenger, players everywhere proceed to throttle me IRL

vale crescent
#

EW"

indigo oasis
#

Giving an Assassin Pin to the confusion of all

brittle cipher
brisk flax
#

and when the Operator is destroyed they may immediately teleport
When the Operator is destroyed, the pilot can immediately Eject

indigo oasis
#

Huh, nevermind again, order is free!

brisk flax
#

So yeah, the ordering is free

#

You can eject before or after teleporting, and then Self-Erasure happens

#

Ejection is NOT a reaction, which means it can be done more or less "for free," Deniable Asset is as a reaction and is subject to the same restrictions as any other reaction

smoky bluff
#

Would running a double Ultra fight be productive

#

Thinking Ultra Spector and Ultra Pyro

#

Really stress test that Ultra template

indigo oasis
#

Depends on the player count and tier

brisk flax
#

"Can you run double ultras" is a question people already ask about CRB lancer

#

I don't know if it would specifically be productive OR unproductive, it's simply a thing you can do

indigo oasis
#

When it comes to any combination and number of NPCs and Templates, the answer is usually “yes but watch out”

vale crescent
#

You can run what you want. It just depends if it's a good idea or not

arctic stag
brisk flax
#

How would you prefer to be credited?

arctic stag
fierce night
# arctic stag just my username is fine

hey these seem really cool and interesting. Is there, by any chance, any gubat banwa in the designs? The condition stacking around the absolution tokens really reminds me of a mechanic from that game

arctic stag
fierce night
#

so you did, apologies

neon blaze
#

oh seeing i remembered this after setting up NPC stuff again but: Veteran Aegis' Mobile Emitter trait might need some clarification text that it doesn't get Immuned by Regenerative Shielding (or maybe period, in the case of overlapping Defense Nets) for both rebake and non-rebake

#

obviously this depends on intent but i kinda realized that "yeah the trait that takes it from immoblized to slowed probably isn't meant to actually secretly take it from immobilized to nothing"

fringe peak
#

ye, that's the way I've been running it at least

#

but it did give me a solid pause of "EXCUSE ME"

#

funny enough the strangest thing is that for me, aegis become size 2 was a bit of a nerf beleive it or not? i usually would haeve a more mobile ally grapple aegis and move it around, it works fantastic with operator,

#

that being said I did very much alot of the new traits, i lvoe the projected shield ability

indigo oasis
#

Has anyone tried pairing a Desant Hardpoints Support with a Veteran Aegis (w/ it’s veteran trait ofc)?

brisk flax
#

Well by default a Support is size 2 and can carry characters "whose combined size is less than its own"

#

and a rebake Aegis is also size 2

#

so you'd need to be using a mix of CRB stuff and rebake material

indigo oasis
#

Ah yeah- you’d need to make the support a ship, and at that point the defense net won’t do much

rose hamlet
#

Or manually up/downsize one or the other I suppose

fringe peak
#

dessant hardpoints i find is msot useful when paired with the scourer

#

or stuff like that

small hamlet
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This is probably a question that's been answered already

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But it's hard to search threads

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Are the speciality templates like Pirate, Exotic, Mercenary, Spacer, etc. going to get rebakes?

brisk flax
small hamlet
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Valid!

arctic stag
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on a similar note, has anyone taken their hand at spite or strider rebakes?

trail pivot
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i had a strider alternative, but its been a while since i looked at it.

rose hamlet
small hamlet
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I wasn't specifically looking

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I was just interested

rose hamlet
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All good then

smoky bluff
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Ok so despite better judgement, I ran 2 Ultras in an encounter and all i can say is that damn. A single Ultra got hands.

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The second ultra came in as reinforcements but at that point the party was severely crippled in terms of capabilities. In the end they won

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Still in playtest, I can say a few things about ultras

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Cuz i used them that's for sure

manic sky
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Question: Suppose a rebake Hive with Solipsis Swarm and Driving Swarm. On its turn it Boosts up adjacent to a PC, then drops Razor Swarm right on the other side of the PC. The PC takes their turn, suffers burn because of Solipsis Swarm. This counts as taking burn from a Razor Swarm, so Driving Swarm kicks in. The PC fails their Systems save, and the Hive makes them walk through the Razor Swarm. The PC then suffers additional burn from the Razor Swarm... right?

last blade
manic sky
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Awesome. Thank you!

smoky bluff
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There is also no limit, so they would need to make the save again or be pushed 4 more spaces

blissful lion
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Would an Ace’s Countermeasures optional work against a fluid lance attempting to impale it and give it immobilised?

smoky bluff
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Looks like it will work, Immobilized is a condition

fluid zodiac
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When I used a rebake ultra, it was threatening but noticeably weaker than a vanilla ultra

smoky bluff
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Specter and pyro

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Pyro first, round 2 specter

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I did forget about a lot of pyro's features though, because the ultra's features are powerful enough

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For 1, the Hellfire projector could technically attack the same target twice if they are big enough, size 3 enkidu got cooked real good

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Also priest with tier 3 abjure? Melted the enkidu's reactor so much it went from 4 to 1 at the end of round 3

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I should post the full rapport

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Give me a second

twin reef
smoky bluff
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Really? It does state thata it makes 2 attacks, just that the areas cannot overlap

brisk flax
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Unless something SPECIFICALLY says it can make multiple attacks against a single character, nothing in the game does this

smoky bluff
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I see, so my encounter i have ran a bit wrongly then.

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I have never used the Hellfire Projector before so that explains it

bold crystal
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to be fair, the (core) hellfire projector is worded exactly the same as, like, the breacher's shotgun minus the 'targeting the same or different characters' part, with 'this weapon can make two attacks at a time'

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vs pinaka's 'attacks with this create two blast 1 areas'

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it wouldn't hurt to reword it to the pinaka wording, because this comes up a bit in rules questions(not too often, but it does) since it's saying it's two attacks and not two cones.

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(...not that the pinakas don't either, but they've got a faq to point to.)

small hamlet
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On that subject, I had to add a specific clause to my Lobber NPC because it had a single weapon that it can barrage with

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The Lobber can use this weapon as both parts of a BARRAGE, but the target areas can’t overlap. Characters in both areas are attacked only once, but the Lobber may choose from which area.

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It was pointed out to me that those were separate attacks.

vale crescent
tame obsidian
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Had a question about this, Does this function as a typical weapon attack with an 'on hit' effect when it explodes? As in, Shredded on failed hull save and then 4 cc_damage_explosive dmg?

image.png
indigo oasis
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Did a Finaljas Holdout with the rebakes (basically score points instead of wait rounds), and… it really went stupid.

So, to preface- the holdout would have had Ingress Zones all around the PCs… however, because of their success in the preceding combat, they managed to block off all but the furthest ingress zones, with NPCs being required to waste actions to break through blocked off ingress zones.

So, a lot of NPCs had to move a great distance to even enter the holdout zone, and even then, they were getting peppered and killed before they could even enter. And the ranged units of the combat were rainmakers and hives, meaning they could never get within their ideal range bands

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I don’t think I should report on what happened that combat in detail because the map was so skewed in the PCs favor because they had the chance to reorganize the preceding map

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But I will say a few things:

  • atlas missiles has good changes that make it a fun control tool, came in clutch several times.
  • command override is alright, but the burn and lock on make it not feel worth it, as it hardly left a dent in my players even after a rainmaker followed up with a triple lock on Missile Pod attack. It’s expensive, and moving drones extra spaces don’t really feel as impactful when the Hive only has 1 razor swarm. It helps, but the fact it needs to see all the drones, take heat, have the recharge, and suffer the opportunity cost of not doing other things made me feel like it wasn’t worth the effort. If it didn’t require LOS, I think it’d be a lot more worth its costs- that way you wouldn’t have to spend so many actions repositioning and could maybe use it a bit more. It already has a save behind it after all, unlike a full on razor swarm
  • pyro’s improved Firebreak was nice- it didn’t actually do anything but it threatened my players and psyched them out when they hit it with March of ten thousand and was still able to use it (since it doesn’t use actions). This is a CRB thing but the addition of burn made it more of a tangible threat
manic sky
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Yeah I did that one recently and only let them move previous map wrecks instead of just, any object, which was a lot better. Was pretty funny with the Puppetmaster too.

indigo oasis
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Yeah I hoped redirecting so much fire to the grunts would’ve done more tbh

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Idk, doubling back to Command Override, even against drone players and with drone allies, it looks a lot better than it is

brisk flax
indigo oasis
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I managed to move a razor swarm and 2 turret drones with it, hit 3 out of 4 targets with it, and at the end of the day it was just kinda… meh? It happened, it hurt, but it didn’t really deter or impact my players in a meaningful way

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And the hive died soon afterwards because to get to all those drones and hit the objective, it had to run directly into the middle of the fray

brisk flax
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I will not be making control override LoS-less

indigo oasis
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Fair enough

brisk flax
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"make a thing not use LoS" is in most cases a non-starter with me, I'm intensely uninterested in doing so outside of occasional weapon tweaks to see if seeking is a worthwhile addition

indigo oasis
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Then maybe some other buff?

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I wouldn’t know what

brisk flax
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Maybe I won't buff it because other people have used it and said it's fine

indigo oasis
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Fair enough, this is just one data point

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It just didn’t feel or seem worth the risk and investment to make use of when I used it, and I feel like I used it in a scenario where I could get the most impact from it

brisk flax
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okay

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that's a datapoint and I'll keep it in mind, but it's not enough for me to go "oh man better buff this"

indigo oasis
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Fair fair

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Unfortunate the next hive I use will lack Command Override

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Tho I could add it on retroactively, but I wouldn’t know which optionals to swap out

brisk flax
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I mean command override is very much a sometimes food more than the other hive optionals

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I wouldn't consider bringing it as a matter of course just to bring it

indigo oasis
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Yeah the combat definitely was geared in what I thought was command overrides favor- this next one less so

fringe peak
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so command overide had a fucking hilarious sue for me recently

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wolfhound missile

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there were 3 hives and an ultra engineer

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and well

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it become fucking hillarious

indigo oasis
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I get it’s very useful in specific circumstances- forced movement often is

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Comboing it with a restock drone, razor swarm, and wolfhound missile are the best cases

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However, for that Wolfhound Missile Tech, what also works is a Scout with Pathfinder, or a mirage using Warp Sensors.

Just because there are fun specific combos does not mean the trait is suddenly elevated to being a magnitude stronger. It still needs to have “general purpose” (I say that in quotes because ideally it still needs to be deployed in a combat where drones are present on units other than the hive and that’s fine)

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It should usable more often than just being paired with one optional from a specific template

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So I don’t think a strat like that should be a massive point of consideration when it comes to the power of Command Override- still needs to be considered as an outlying circumstance for the purposes of tightening wording if necessary- but prolly not as a measure of power.

brisk flax
indigo oasis
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Nevermind to that then

simple juniper
vale crescent
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Every optional has its strengths and weaknesses. And in an optimal world they should pay off 1:1

smoky bluff
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Yeah the amount of times i had a flying player is always when I decide not to field a engineer

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When i do field one. No flying characters. When I don't suddenly, flying Everest Asura Tactician HMG and Taraxacum show up

vale crescent
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Drones aren't too common but so it makes sense for drone move system to not be too powerful because it works as a support tool for allies. And that can be used as frequently as the NPCs are equipped with it

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And it also has the ability to bully a hydra player

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As they deserve

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Bringing quite potent support and controller ability

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Is an iceout drone immune to command override?

smoky bluff
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Immunity to all tech actions so yes

smoky bluff
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Ok so I'm back to operator critiques, i have tried the sniper, bombard and rainmaker rebake so i'm back to my problems with the operator. Currently through testing, the operator can take on a large majority of targets with its extended range and mobility with little difficulty but if match with a mech with the same speed or long range, they must play extremely cautiously and aware of the player's ability at all times due to its fragility and nature to operate alone. I'm not sure how to word this but I'll try anyways. The operator is easy to use to hit a player for 7 energy damage but difficult to keep alive if played suboptimally. So as stated before, the best way to make use of the operator to outperform all other artilleries is to keep it alive as long as possible for it is, at current iteration, a very high risk, medium reward sort of artillery as of now.

Although it can challenge players who cannot respond to it's advanced mobility. I find using the operator to attack high evasion targets much more difficult, because those that invest in high evasion are also one that have incredibly high speed. Enough to catch up to the operator in a lot of situations unless terrain is favorable on the operator's side. A lot of the times, the operator i field cannot take on heavy high mitigation targets unlike the bombard, sniper and sometimes the rainmaker (although that has to do more with AP and fighting white witchs). With the help of telefrag, they can match, but that's an extremely expensive optional to use as its also one that can potentially take off a good chunk of the operator's small HP pool which it needs to manage if they also want to make use of fade generator since they have to survive an attack without any ways of mitigating the damage before teleporting. Leaving backline support units like swallowtail, goblin and other soft targets that aren't on the frontline as the main effective target that the operator hunts. It's certainly good at it, compared to the rainmaker and it's nerfed range, it can reliably force these mechs to engage when they could potentially be doing something else to support the team. But a lot of other artillery mechs can do something similar. Even the rainmaker, with its reduced range, could potentially deal with these long range support mechs with skyhammer salvo not having a stated range, just line of sight. While in comparison, the operator struggle to take on the same targets that the other artillery mechs can deal with.

I'm not sure if this is relatively good criticism or insight but that's just my 2 cents on the operator matter so far.

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I'm not exactly sure what I seem to be missing for the operator? Maybe a less risky way to deal with high mitigation enemies other than telefrag would be enough for me, like maybe overload shot could be AP as well as being a Line but that might be asking for a lot

rose hamlet
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So if I’m reading this right, it’s that you personally feel Rebake Operator

  • struggles against high evasion enemies because they’re the ones most likely to catch it out
  • struggles against slower, armored enemies who can’t catch it because of their armor
  • does best against normal speed, backline mechs who can’t chase it and can’t mitigate the damage. However, you feel it isn’t impactful enough there to carve out a niche
smoky bluff
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Yes that's exactly it

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I mainly think the last point is just not enough due to how much risk the operator has to play around with its range 12 compared to the other npcs, Bombards are quite literally park and shoot and snipers already got enough range to reach most sensor 20 mechs

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And I already stated as to how rainmaker can still fight these targets even with a nerfed range

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To be fair, the rainmaker is terrible in this regard of harassing backline units with damage due to their range but it can at least do something, and it's something that doesn't particularly risk it from any sort of response other than "get out of its skyhammer salvo"

rose hamlet
smoky bluff
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To be fair, a lot of factors such as the map can alleviate this such as more difficult terrain and large thin obstacle that the operator could safely teleport through but that feels more like a bandaid measure than a real solution.

smoky bluff
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There was also the increase the accuracy/difficulty value of strike and fade

vale crescent
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Teleportation is powerful. However it's only benefit on an open field is that it negates reactions... its powerful because it can go through cover and walls

smoky bluff
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Still i find it quite difficult to hold an operator fight in a space full of terrain and high elevations, which the operator enjoy, because it's also jager kunst heaven

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One Atlas and it's over for the operator

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The best i have gotten out of the operator is placing them on a bunch of height 6 terrain and since nobody could easily get to them, they just rained hell, but I could do the same with almost any other artillery mech as well. Although getting there would probably be the hard part for them.

vale crescent
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It might just be unfortunate that the operator you keep bringing against a party that inherently counters it

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Actually

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Yeah, i agree with that a lot