#The NPC Rebake Project and NPC Tinkering Power Zone (NO MULTIATTACKERS ALLOWED)

1 messages · Page 8 of 1

brisk flax
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Not sure I'm following that logic

smoky bluff
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Its hard for me to try and formulate this sorry but

Basically when I'm trying to make the most out of my teleporting movement, i only have the Base 5 movement to work with, alongside the range 10 Rifle, it's not usually enough to engage in hit and run tactics. I'd have to use 2 spaces to teleport myself to a great edge, hope that my enemies are close enough for me to fire my Rifle, then used the last 3 to safely teleport back down. Climbing down from a structure helps in that but due to the lack of easy movement to avoid difficult terrain, I sometimes wish I had a little bit more movement options

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Even the ace sort of gets around this issue due to having barrel roll

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A free 6 spaces of movement to scurry away

brisk flax
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I think the issue here, if I can be bold, is the operator isn't mean to be the "constantly split their standard move" unit

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if an Assault can be said to have effectively "14 range band" by virtue of moving and shooting, the Operator is working with range 15 for the same reason

rose hamlet
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It sounds like this Operator is trying to stay in one spot instead of moving from place to place too?

brisk flax
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you HAVE five spaces of movement to escape from, it is called boosting and/or standard moving

trail pivot
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^

brisk flax
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trying to do things like "teleport on top of a vertical structure and then teleport back down with the same movement" will be harder to accomplish, yes

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though I'll also say: if you're only teleporting to the top of something that requires 2 spaces of teleportation to get there, you COULD just walk off the edge sounds like

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I'm not trying to be dismissive of the feedback here, but it seems that the operator in this operator/assault equation is being held to a different standard of available movement

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Trace Drive is not meant to, idk, fully carry the operator's mobility on its own

smoky bluff
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I still think having a few ways to negate effects like climbing and Difficult terrain would go a long way for the operator to engage in hit and run tactics, because once it uses up that 5 teleporting movement, it comes to a crawl even when boosting in hazardous environments

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Sniper at least have climbing trait to help it move about, and it has a few mobility optionals too, alot of operators optionals are around getting close and not running away

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Doesn't help that the (i don't think i can even call it an equivalent) defensive grapple of the operator, singularity grenade is limited

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Maybe the maps I'm using aren't the best for an operator. I do feel like operators performances are greatly tied to what map they are on

fringe peak
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I will admit I was wondering if there's interest in making veteran traits for monstrosity and squad eventually

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Well not squad

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Mainly cause I like using veteran monstrosities

indigo oasis
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Monstrosity would be nice yeah- squads can’t gain structure tho so idk about that

brisk flax
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I also don't really see "verticality" as being a core component of the operator's playstyle so much as an incidental add

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The operator's speed is no less and its mobility no more restricted than its CRB counterpart so in that regard nothing about it has changed

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The crux of it is range

smoky bluff
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Is trace drive only standard movement in the Base game too? Hold on

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Oh shit, I've been playing operator wrong for a long time for longer than I think

brisk flax
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Ah

smoky bluff
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Well, that's what I get for being illiterate in times like these I guess

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Well, either way, I'll still run some test with the operators and see where to go from here with my knowledge now

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I think having them as a harrying force that doesn't play objectives is the route I can see them taking, I'll still need to figure out what's the best way to position them too

brisk flax
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I do think operators will need to mind the map more, as well as their positioning

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Part of the problem with operators as they exist in the CRB is they're largely a "braindead" unit

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you have 20 range and +2 accuracy so you can basically just brute force your way past cover and still have decent odds of hitting, and you're so far away that it's a pain to interact with them

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frankly, the CRB operator doesn't NEED a teleport

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My thoughts on the matter are this:
1). I've had a number of reports on operators feeling "off"
2). It's hard for me to dig down into precisely what the issue is between a systemic problem with the Operator or simply it being a bigger adjustment than most Rebakes (as it has had a dramatic range reduction)
3). Of the levers available for me to pull, the two that address the "skirmishness" of the operator are speed and range
4). I'm not really a fan of boosting its speed because my concern is making it faster runs the risk of making it harder to corner, which is a big complaint of the CRB version (that it can very effortlessly kite players)
5). So all things considered I would probably entertain a range increase, but not back to 20, I would (if I did it) consider range 12
6). However, this still wouldn't change any of the operator's fundamental mobility (Still speed 5, still only teleports on standard move, etc)

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so it kind of comes down to "would 2 points of range really tip the scales here"

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I do think that getting caught up trying to split up Trace Drive is perhaps not how I would focus on them, so much as deciding whether you want to Boost in and then teleport out or vice versa

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which does make their positioning more of an important factor

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like I guess something I would note is that Operators SHOULD probably be trying to make use of cover if possible and not just Strike and Fade if that

smoky bluff
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Yeah operator rebake is so different from the other operator I sort of need to be aware of good places to stay in cover

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In the last playthrough, I had to actively hunt for soft cover to hide from the sherman

heavy pebble
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Is the problem that it's too easy for melee players to catch them, or is it that it's too easy for ranged players to blow them up?

brisk flax
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It DOES seem, and this might just be perceptual bias, that operators that get templated seem to be faring better

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i.e. the ones with extra structure/stress seem to be having an easier go of it

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which, I mean, no shit

smoky bluff
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It helps since they are so close to the action

brisk flax
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but it's kind of an interesting observation

smoky bluff
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Even when running away

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Its usually not enough against dedicated artillery players or pankrati

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Maybe a health increase could be good but that also risk a high HP invisible unit

brisk flax
smoky bluff
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Yeah i guess I shouldn't consider them the standard but the outlier

brisk flax
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like the reason the operator has a reputation for being hard to interact with is that it's functionally been a non barrage, non ordnance Sniper

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Fade Generator (the CRB version) certainly doesn't help with that

heavy pebble
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If they're getting blown up through cover, add more evasion?

brisk flax
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but overall, it's a combination of excessively long range and zero drawbacks that means it can just dance around its max range, and also the CRB version has Step

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so even if it runs out of distance, it can just teleport 50 spaces

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I'll take more feedback on operators if anyone's looking to run some stuff, so far it feels like it's the one NPC that I'm getting more actionable feedback on, the rest has largely been in a holding pattern of "yeah it's working fine"

smoky bluff
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I'll run another pick up game sometimes soon and see what I can find with some points in mind

  • Operator needs to find more cover than usual (more npcs that provide that, Bastion, pyro, barricade)
  • Play more like a strider with performance issue, play around large immovable terrain size 4 or larger.
  • Operator teams are lot more effective when the players have something else to focus on bastion, demolisher, goliath, spite
  • running Operator teams are alot less mean than usual
brisk flax
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I'm going to look at making a couple of specter tweaks, nothing major, I talked about the change to its cloak's inherent "break this" earlier

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but otherwise, everything else seems to be in a decent-ish spot, or at least nobody's said otherwise yet

smoky bluff
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Yeah i think the problem with the Operator is that it just feels a bit like a worse strider

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Strider even has more movement than the operator with its optionals

brisk flax
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Worse Strider feels like exceedingly dire critique, ngl

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like that's not "well it's kinda got issues"

smoky bluff
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True, strider got its own can of worms

spice aspen
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current comp is as follows, with every enemy being at T2. I'm amenable to swapping this kinda stuff around too, I'm happy to experiment

(also hey player of mine, I know you talk in this thread, you better not spoil yourself on these!!! or else!!!!! kittyGun)
|| * Operator (Telefrag)

  • Mirage (Multiplicity)
  • Bombard (High-Impact Shells)
  • Veteran Hive (Harrier Maniple, Veteran: Abrade)
  • Ronin (Charged Slash)
  • Goliath (Mag Gauntlet, Pin)||
brisk flax
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does it die too easily by virtue of having to live in a 10 range band world, is its mobility insufficient to allow it to skirmish and move to more advantageous positions, etc

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I'll take other feedback like "I used this optional and it sucks," Fade Generator recently got an overhaul as a result of underperforming for example

spice aspen
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alright!

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I will run one and follow up with info on how it performs (along with the rest of the comp, ofc)

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looking forward to getting to run these blorbos, I've been wanting to for a bit now

solid pilot
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Lancers
5 PCs / LL2
1x Sherman
1x Minotaur
1x Amber Phantom
1x Deaths Head
1x Nelson Flight Type

Mission Type
Standard

OPFOR Start
1x Hornet - Templates: Commander (Military Discipline), Elite - (Umbral Interdiction, Lock-Hold)
1x Sentinel - Templates: Veteran [K] (Lightning Reflexes), Elite, Spacer - (Bodyguard, Marker Shells)
1x Hatchet - Templates: Champion [Suldan] (Honor Guard) Pirate - (Reckless Dive, Assault Armor)
1x Support Grunt
1x Defender Grunt

OPFOR Reinforcements
1x Defender Grunt
1x Support Grunt
2x Artillery Grunt

The Hornet got deleted very quickly by the CPR Death's Head but Lock-Hold still worked very well

Players really enjoyed playing around the threat of the Sentinel, reliable on the shotgun felt better for me the GM as well. Size 2 change works as intended with making threat and guardian easier to use so pairs well as a 'generic' guard.

Grunts didn't really get to do much but the overhead simplification was nice

indigo oasis
brisk flax
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It would obviously be nice if the Operator provided a satisfying tactical gameplay experience for the GM, but it also shouldn't necessarily be "hard mode," and also the payoff does need to be worth the effort

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it's a pretty fine line to have to walk; I do think that GMs should have to think tactically as much as players do, despite the contexts being different (players focusing primarily upon individual performance with a sideline in teamwork, the OPFOR being teamwork-oriented primarily with individual performance being limited by individual NPCs being much more limited than PC mechs), but Lancer doesn't really grade NPCs on a "difficulty rating"

manic sky
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Replacing these DMR artillery grunts with an Operator sounds appealing now...

indigo oasis
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I am curious about Overload Shot if you plan on doing that- there’s been thoughts and commentary on most all the Operator optionals with the exception of Overload Shot

smoky bluff
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Its hard to justify using it when its worst than a thermal lance with 4 heat

indigo oasis
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I imagine the Reliable + Strike and Fade makes up for it?

smoky bluff
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ah true i forgot about that reliable line is pretty decent

indigo oasis
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It still feels a bit meh for an optional- tho I guess having a low power optional has its value, like if you wanna make an Operator spicier but not too much stronger

smoky bluff
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true

indigo oasis
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Still, I think it getting more attention to see if it needs more love would be worth the time

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Eg. Is Recharge and being a Full Action necessary? Or just one or the other?

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Not saying either is necessary

brisk flax
indigo oasis
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But the fact it’s been in the background is just making me curious about it

brisk flax
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"worse than a thermal lance" is, I'm sorry, not a comparison I'm going to pay heed to

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PC and NPC side stuff isn't going to be evaluated that way

smoky bluff
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true, its not exactly the same

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micro-missile barrage from assault [k] is more comparable, but even that doesn't have a heat cost

indigo oasis
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It’s a thing I expect to be perfectly fine, but due diligence is preferred

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I may throw an operator into a random combat just cuz I wanna mess with one

rose hamlet
smoky bluff
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In the extraction mission i played, the operator struggled to go up toe to toe with the players when they were in their line of fire and always played a goose chase, forming a semi circle behind the player team as they rushed towards the objective, since the player team had no incentives to move back towards the PDZ, the operators had free reign in terrorising the backline

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If it wasn't for veterancy, they'd be dead

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Cuz the tachyon sherman always had them in range alongside the sunzi/atlas final secret

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Soft cover saved one as well

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But because of this, they always played around the maximum range band of 10, so I found little to no use to using the line optional

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I do have to say that operator [k] + veteran [k] is still just as effective as the old operator due to having overcharge

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Does a little more damage too at LL6

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If i had to give it an optional, something like lockbreaker skirmisher 2 would be amazing

brisk flax
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Let's just take it as a given that I am not going to give the operator any form of effortless additional movement

vale crescent
fringe peak
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Honestly back on the operator thing.

I think what makes it feel off is the loss of step and skirmisher. I don't want those back because they're honestly not needed at all.

I think mobility that's more costly like fade generator is the right way to go however.

Giving it something like ace afterburners would actually be kinda fun?

It would have a bigger cost as well since the heat generation will eat into your trace drive allotment and will let your u less freely use fade generator defensively

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I will say operators veteran trait is hillarious.

I usually pair it with the specialist class form maximum threat personally sometimes but the ability to use stuff like deniable asset to just have the base mech be a fucking time bomb you teleport around is really funny.

I did a comp with veteran operators and an ultra bombard and I'd use the deniable asset operators as ticking time bombs

manic sky
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For Operator with Overload Shot, it costing 4 doesn't seem excessive it's more their heat cap is 7 so using it a second time in a fight will expose it. Thinking on it though it's a recharge option so it's only likely to use it 2 maybe 3 times

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And maybe only once!

brisk flax
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It's something I'm open to tinkering with provided I get some actual playtest feedback on it. The reason it's a full action is simply that if it isn't then it becomes a thing you can combo with a normal skirmish and/or other weapons accrued from elsewhere, which is one of the primary reasons why the assault's micro-missile barrage is now a full action rather than a quick (as I've never really been a huge fan of how that translates into a big damage spike)

smoky bluff
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Running another Oneshot here are the details

Mission Sitrep: Control

Hyperdensed Levi HACDrake
NOAH NHP Black Witch
Levi Heavy AssaultCannon Rifle Tagetes
Retractable Profile Rangertail
Mourning Cloak Nelson

Enemy Opfor
2 Vet Bastion
1 Vet Demolisher
2 Operators
1 Elite Vet Support
1 Engineer
1 Hornet
1 Assassin

Tbh not my best pick up game, I forgot about the budget for the scene and accidentally deployed my whole opfor instead of holding some back in reserve so as compensation, I didn't deploy any reinforcements in this fight. It was pretty brutal sitrep and with how tough the bastions can be with veterancy and friendly interdiction.

It didn't help that the map was split into two routes with a size 5 object blocking the view between paths and both Black Witch and Drake went together in the "Not as many NPC" route vs the "Wall of Bastion and Demolisher"

The match ended in a tie which is probably what would be the best result from this fight.

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Feedback

Veteran Bastion

Tough and Supportive to the Operators that tailed behind them. Call me in love, I wish this is the base game bastion, just so much synergy and sense in it and i didn't even have to use deathcounter. 10/10 would spam again

Veteran Demolisher

Great scary NPC that made the Nelson Player nervous once it got close enough to cover their allies, tanked damage like a champ from the Tagetes, tried to jet propulsion and attack the Retractable Profile Rangertail but missed before being finished off

Elite Veteran Support / Engineer

Desant Mount + Engineer = Walking battleship that can deploy turrets around, too bad they couldn't share a turn like a goblin can, but this was for the best. Sadly, it just sort of camp the point furtest away from the enemy action. I wish to run this combo again because its very funny even if i can't put turrets on the support.

Operators

Oh boy do i have things to share about these guys. In the mission they had Singularity Grenade and Telefrag. These guys basically played as a weird strider/assault hybrid that occasionally teleported in to telefrag their hostile before returning to the bastion for safety. I didn't even find much use to make use of trace drive and since the bastion was extremely tough to get around, the Operators were able to live for the majority of the combat. The Operators didn't engage in meaningful chases, kiting or hit and run, they just sat behind their friendly interdiction bastion and fired from that angle for 90% of the mission, teleporting around the bastion for that strike and fade bonus, using singularity grenade to get players off objectives and using telefrag before immediately running back to the safety of the bastion because if it did stayed there it would have been hunted by the Nelson. I'm not sure if you can even call this an artillery, this is a Striker

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Hornet

Fun, 2 HAC though so... dead as quickly as it supersoniced

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Assassin

Great, it doesn't feel too off from the original and they did challenge the Drake and Black Witch with a Shroud Projector and Transfix definitly is a great and fun combo that I would recommend others to try but the Assassin failed a Ferrous Lash roll and got kicked out of the Transfix. It was a great moment i'm sure the player greatly enjoy

spice aspen
last blade
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is the rebaked hound missile intended to manoeuvre around characters (as it does with terrain)? and does it explode if someone is pushed into it?

bitter lava
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Ran my combats yesterday in my game with Priest and Witch rebakes and Grunt Strikers w/ the Heavy Blade

  • Priest changes were nice; made them feel a lot more consistent and the shield ability change wrt how it worked with overshield was a nice condensing of complexity
  • Witch was also nice (I ran a Veteran one); Immolate was fun to get off on a target that was committing reactor crimes.
  • the Striker Grunts were quite handy lil fellows with their boosted speed from having the blade equipped, and the Limited 1 'move your speed' protocol was nice to ensure they would have a chance of getting into the thick of it before being taken down
brisk flax
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the answer to these questions is "does the CRB version do this"

last blade
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darn

manic sky
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Following off of this, we finished the fight. The only thing I have to add is for the NPC structure damage table, actually.

The stated intent is to not have your NPC's weapon blown up, but having rolled it several times in a row, the 2-4 result puts it in effectively the same position as having the weapon blown up. Being Jammed shuts off its options in the same way, it feels like. Moreover, it actually feels worse because you could potentially have ablative weapons, or have to break a System instead of a Weapon and choose something less important. Jammed, there's nothing you can do. 2-4 is going to be the most common result, and at times it really felt like I'd rather have rolled a 1 so I could pick Impaired/Slowed instead.

indigo oasis
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Oh that’s fascinating

brisk flax
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I don't think the average CRB NPC is really going to have a fun time going through multiple system traumas either tbh

smoky bluff
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Getting hit is not fun. Shocking

brisk flax
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again, this seems to turn back to "it's fine if you have sacrificial stuff to throw at the problem, less so if you don't"

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It's worth keeping an eye on, but it's also notable that for the most part, the revised NPC structure damage table is probably going to be seeing majority use for NPCs that don't have structure damage on par with ultras

solid pilot
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The being neutered for a turn vs being neutered for the rest of the encounter thing also feels more- fine I guess, especially on an elite

indigo oasis
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Think being able to choose between Jam and something else would be good?

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Or is that too much?

smoky bluff
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On a Defender, this is an upside really

brisk flax
smoky bluff
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Unless demolisher or sentienl

indigo oasis
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A Sentinel would feel pretty bad tho

smoky bluff
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True

brisk flax
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I'm not really eager to introduce additional choices into something that's intended to be simpler than the default for several reasons

smoky bluff
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One thing I have to ask about operator's fade Cloak is if invisibility comes before or after the attack

manic sky
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I mostly bring it up as a point to watch, is all. Because to me, the players still have those ablative things they can use. The NPCs, with this table, had them taken away. The Jammed does wear off, as opposed to the weapon blowing up, true... Well, maybe it's just because my players are, again, animals (affectionate).

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5 PCs and they take off 3-4 NPC structure bars per round.

smoky bluff
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Running a support feels great when you do get Jammed though

brisk flax
smoky bluff
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Its like "Yes, Yes, Yes! My boy cam do something cool!"

brisk flax
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To put it another way, does Reactive Weave grant invisibility before or after the attack?

smoky bluff
brisk flax
smoky bluff
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Would be nice to have resistance to the fade generator I'd suppose

smoky bluff
brisk flax
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Please do not ask me to clarify things if your response is going to be "oh well that sucks"

indigo oasis
smoky bluff
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Teleport is only if the map encourages that behaviour of ducking into cover, as I stated in my playtest, the best way I can make this work in most situation is by putting a Bastion to babysit the operator

indigo oasis
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If you’re playing an Operator optimally, the Invis will only come out if the players are using seeking or arcing weapons

indigo oasis
smoky bluff
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True

brisk flax
indigo oasis
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It still makes the Operator map wary, true, but it’s not gimped because it depends on cover, it’s just leaning more heavily into the game’s presumptions of design

trail pivot
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using a defender to babysit an artillery seems like, Normal to me really

brisk flax
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I do not want to go "well you're doing it wrong," but you ARE the person responsible for things like map design, opfor deployment, etc

indigo oasis
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The base game Operator is the same thing- Step isn’t good because you can teleport out of range, but because you can teleport to a place you can’t be hit, including behind a wall in addition to out of range

smoky bluff
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True, playing a npc with certain ways is definitely great effects to how operators feel

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I guess I'm feeling this way because most of the npcs feel so similar to the base game, however I actually have to learn tactics with the operator instead of playing braindead

brisk flax
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I think it needs to be taken as a given that whatever shakes out with the rebake operator, it is not going back to something like the CRB version, because frankly I do not feel that is a thing that lancer the TRPG needs

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like, will I tweak it? sure

indigo oasis
brisk flax
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but the reason the operator is so "effective" in CRB lancer is because it has a range 20 no ordnance gun that shoots with +2 accuracy

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frankly, its positional requirements are "just have LoS"

smoky bluff
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Which it can easily achieve with trace drive

indigo oasis
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Now it’s positional requirements is “don’t stop where you can be hit”, which is completely reasonable

bold crystal
brisk flax
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I do not find it to be an especially deep or engaging unit, and I also don't find it one that really sells any sort of particular tactical identity

indigo oasis
brisk flax
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but that's, like, a thing you could do with any unit that had a baseline "teleport literally anywhere on the map"

smoky bluff
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Still the tactical identity it currently has on me is just an advanced assault which I guess if that's your intentions, I'd have to keep learn through failure how to make use of this new npc

bold crystal
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baseline step is actively a crime. an ultra operator with a bit of luck and mean positioning can solo multiple players and come out ahead.
(this is not actually an issue for the hornet, funnily enough, because it does not have... 20 range. with which to torment players with.)

indigo oasis
brisk flax
# manic sky I mostly bring it up as a point to watch, is all. Because to me, the players *st...

so I want to swing back to this:
I'll keep an eye on it and I'm glad you brought it up. This is an interesting feedback point in that it primarily only affects a certain narrow band of NPCs. Ultras don't use the new table, and 2 structure NPCs won't care because taking a second structure just means "I'm fuckin dead," so this is principally only a thing that affects 3-4 structure non-ultra NPCs

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that is to say, compounded templates

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CRB wise, that's your pick of veteran, elite, and commander

smoky bluff
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So a commander elite Veteran basically

solid pilot
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I have actually used that recently yeah- to be fair. It was a hornet- and my party has a CPR Death's head so.

indigo oasis
brisk flax
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I do think that 3 structure NPCs aren't uncommon enough that this isn't a non-issue, so it's worth keeping in the back of my mind

indigo oasis
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Jamming twice being worse than System Trauma twice doesn’t sound right to me tho, especially since elites get 2 turns and can get rid of that jam “faster”

brisk flax
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I do not think I'm likely to turn it into a choice decision. I think if I were to do anything that would potentially "mitigate" the result it would be something along the lines of a save vs jammed with some other effect on a success

brisk flax
smoky bluff
indigo oasis
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And Veterans, if you’re using the rebake, have Limitless, so Jammed turns to me seems like a time to stabilize and reset Limitless

brisk flax
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like it doesn't affect NOTHING, but it does affect a very certain and specific set of somethings

plucky patrol
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Another alternative would be to make the Jammed less common

indigo oasis
brisk flax
indigo oasis
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Moreover, Jam being sucky is class dependent- that Demolisher example about ramming and grappling to Set up for demo hammer for example

plucky patrol
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I've been playtesting my own alt structure table for NPCs for a good few months now, and I have that table set up as Impaired on 4-6 and Jammed on 2-3 only

solid pilot
plucky patrol
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its had some hiccups that I still haven't fully figured out, but I do still prefer it to 67% of the results being "this NPC gets fucked with hard CC until the end of its next turn"

indigo oasis
brisk flax
# smoky bluff Still the tactical identity it currently has on me is just an advanced assault w...

looping back to THIS, I think the aims for what I'm looking for the Operator to angle towards are fairly clear both in the mechanics and the designer notes. "Advanced Assault" is not really how I would couch it, no. It is going to be fundamentally different from a CRB operator, and that is 100% the intent, because the CRB version is basically an exercise in anti-interaction in many cases, in particular as you move out of Tier 1

plucky patrol
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and like, while the CRB table has the same odds obviously, the NPCs that do have ablatives to throw away when they get trauma'd go a long way in terms of the feel of "what happens to my NPCs when they get structured"

indigo oasis
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“Advanced Assault” I can see being something brought up due to the fact the Operator cares a lot about cover, but I wouldn’t call it that. If I were to compare it to the assault, I’d call it a “reverse assault” tbh- Reliable damage and Strike and Fade to shoot past cover penalties, plus teleporting speediness vs hunker down means it wants to hide behind cover rather than tank hits head on.

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Even then, on paper I don’t think the two classes are comparable

brisk flax
smoky bluff
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I rarely find myself finding the right moments to dart around cover or find advantageous positions because when I play a Bastion with the operator, the best position to be in was always behind the bastion

brisk flax
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so in a sense System Trauma is potentially more forgiving, but it does so in a way that's like "well this did nothing then"

indigo oasis
smoky bluff
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True, i should run one without a bastion and see what tactic i should utilise

brisk flax
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all of which is to say that my goal isn't really "this result should be more punishing," because I do think in a lot of cases "jammed EoNT" is less punishing than "you permanently lose your only defining thing"

indigo oasis
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run a deniable asset operator with an avenger, see what happens

brisk flax
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if the issue arises within the 3-4 non ultra structure demographic that the Jammed result is overselecting, it's something I'll need to keep an eye on

smoky bluff
#

I run mainly rebaked npcs for now because I am not ready to find out the consequences of those interactions

indigo oasis
plucky patrol
#

when I roll Jammed, it feels like my NPCs are getting dumpstered, even if they'll recover from that dumpstering

smoky bluff
#

Oh another problem I do have to add is that the operator usually takes some travel time before it can actually start doing its thing due to it having a shorter range, the maps I had run so far are usuay like 30 spaces in size so that would affect the operators rollout and in turn, when they can make their play

#

After all if i played them like a normal npc, they'd spend their whole movement woth boost to move towards a location, fire and then be in a space where the players could fire back, which is not what I want, I want my operator to move fire then move away

indigo oasis
plucky patrol
#

like, rolling Jammed or Stunned on a structure damage for a 2 structure NPC feels to me like that NPC is functionally dead, I am very likely to just not get to have them take another meaningful turn

indigo oasis
plucky patrol
#

and after months of playtesting this on my own, I have come to the conclusion that a 67% chance of that happening is too high

smoky bluff
#

True, but it is an thing that I notice i need to take into account when running an operator

#

Maybe if i combine the rebake homebrew with a template I'm cooking up, I could have a pretty... fun... operator

indigo oasis
smoky bluff
#

But then again, it will screw with playtesting

brisk flax
smoky bluff
#

Hmm

plucky patrol
#

I'm not saying you shouldn't, just that thats the experience that is informing my suggestion

smoky bluff
#

Should I do it though? It would be fun

brisk flax
#

I mean being perfectly blunt, I dislike system trauma and would be happy to just rip it out of consideration altogether

smoky bluff
#

I agree that system trauma is a real mix bag

#

Both player and npc side

brisk flax
#

yeah it's a mixed bag of stuff that sucks

smoky bluff
#

Make sense, getting hit should suck

brisk flax
#

Shuffling the numbers around (to 4-6 on impaired then moving other results deeper into the numbers) means you're looking at a 50% flip on the initial outset still

#

I think my feelings on that are that statistically it's "nicer," but people have a hard time finding 50% chances to be very "fair" even when they are

#

so my concern is that I could make that modification but that it would be hard to accurately evaluate whether it's having a positive effect in practice

plucky patrol
#

thats fair yeah

#

oh! entirely unrelated to the current line of discussion, but I've been wondering for a bit now if you ever interrogated why grunts don't take damage from successful saves?

brisk flax
#

and you mentioned other hiccups as well

brisk flax
#

Lancer has copious amounts of 4E DNA in it

#

minions in 4E never take damage from missed attacks

plucky patrol
#

because to me it feels kinda unnecessary in a world where reliable exists

#

yeah I kinda figured that was the answer

brisk flax
#

4E has no such thing as Lancer's "save or take damage" structure, everything is basically an attack roll

plucky patrol
#

I guess to more accurately state my question, did you ever consider removing that in the rebake?

brisk flax
#

4E also doesn't REALLY have a lot of "Reliable," though it does pop up here and there, usually in ability-specific contexts

#

so "no damage on failed saves" is basically Lancer's version of that

#

to be honest, I think that relaxing that restriction would make grunt sweeping a little too effortless

#

reliable damage already exists, deterministic damage via this or that already exists, I'm not really convinced that having save-or effects with damage consolation just automatically destroy them really adds something valuable to the game

#

GENERALLY the crux of the complaint that I see in regards to this is "it's bullshit that I can't use my Monarch core power to automatically kill all 12 of the grunts in this fight"

plucky patrol
#

I guess its a little ironic that the last time I was giving feedback about your grunts I felt like they were too easy to sweep, but with how accessible reliable and just deterministic damage is, it feels more like an arbitrary thing than an actual helpful tool for protecting them from cheap damage

#

yeah monarch core is the one thing it actually feels like a reasonable protection against to me

ancient forge
#

I have often found grunts can crumble startlingly easily if I don’t give my players a good enough distraction from them

brisk flax
# plucky patrol I guess its a little ironic that the last time I was giving feedback about your ...

there's a couple of things in the rebake grunts that add some "texture" to the proceedings, like strikers getting 1 armor, defenders having some overshield, etc, but "easy to sweep" is just sort of a consequence of how lancer is currently set up in regards to grunts, like if I wanted to be real mean I'd make them immune to damage from missed attacks AND missed saves and force people to actually confirm a hit, BUT I think I'm not really like super married to that in a way that makes me want to push it

plucky patrol
#

oh did you end up giving striker grunts 1 armor? I completely missed that lol

bold crystal
#

my general experience with the grunt save thing is it mostly comes up as a gotcha and people forget about it otherwise. "okay I'll use my anti-armor spear charge rocket to kill this grunt for sure" "nope!"

plucky patrol
#

the feedback I was talking about was before that change and was me specifically saying I missed my frontliner grunts having armor

brisk flax
#

ah yeah

#

Striker-types have a passive 1 armor trait and Controller-types ignore the first instance of heat they take

plucky patrol
#

but yeah, I'm approaching the saves thing from the perspective that it feels weird and arbitrary to me that a missed assault rifle shot can still pop a grunt, but a succesful save against a frag grenade can't

bold crystal
ancient forge
#

Oh now that you mention it, there’s a non-rebake related difference between my current party and most past encounters I’ve run with grunts that’s likely to change how squishy they feel; nearly all their aoe is save-based. I’ll have to keep that in mind

plucky patrol
#

also one of my grunts tanked a reactor meltdown explosion from a character they were grappling yesterday, and as funny as that visual is its also profoundly weird from a diagetic standpoint (not that that matters much)

bold crystal
#

instead of 'sure you can assault rifle it but your grenade has like a 40% chance to do nothing' which is weird in both directions

brisk flax
#

and the converse (no damage from missed attacks) is a thing I guarantee a lot of people would get very, very weird about in ways I frankly do not feel like dealing with

plucky patrol
#

god thats so real lol

brisk flax
#

also, STRICTLY speaking I'm not clear how much that would actually improve the quality of the grunt gameplay experience in a way that matters to me

#

would it make them harder to kill? yeah

#

would that make their contribution to the gameplay better?

#

beats me

bold crystal
#

honestly I think my issue(as much as I happen to have one here) is mostly with like grenades whiffing, more than saves in general. though demolitionist does kind of solve that anyway so. eh.

#

(just because of like the relative resource investment, basically)

plucky patrol
#

thats pretty much the same "issue" I have yeah

ancient forge
#

We had to pause the latest fight until next session but the Goliath did quickly establish itself as a problem on a modified extraction based map where everyone needs to reach the extraction zone. The one player it used the power knuckle on passed the save, but the overall group reaction was “this needs to die ASAP”

This has distracted them from attacking grunts while they were still clustered in the ingress zones, which led to the slowest mech nearly being structured in round 1, so in a way it feels like it’s working so far despite being on the cusp of imminent death

brisk flax
#

the goliath is basically what 40K players call a Distraction Carnifex

ancient forge
#

It has been a long time since I last used one but it does seem better at that than back then

#

Whole party focusing on it as a threat vs one duskwing circling it with its core power for fun while the rest of the party ignored anything it did

smoky bluff
#

Right the Archer Rebake is missing superior Sentinel in the LCP

modest forge
#

love you, babe airipero

manic sky
#

( ♥ )

trail pivot
#

i think that pondering on the missed attacks and etc for me is why i ended up making the squadron just have an actual hp stat, but really low (as in, low enough that your average hit attack or failed save kills it)

modest forge
#

igf is fucking sick btw

solid pilot
#

one day I'll run IGF... also hey wait you look familiar /j

smoky bluff
#

Mission Sitrep: Control

Players
Mourning Cloak Nelson
Flayer built Caliban
Core Powered Balor Empaakii
Prototype Smart Rifle weapon Gilgamesh

Opfor
2 Operator
Assault
Support
Vet Sentinel
Elite Hive

Reinforcements
No Reinforcements use
Elite Pyro
Assault

I had a homebrew ruling where characters on high ground have enough obscurities even though hostiles should have line of sight to it to hide. Which a player denotes was quite detrimental to the experience due to how there was little ways for them to respond to it. I also am playing with Double the structure on the field too so my habits as a Pick-up game only GM is probably showing, skewering the results once more.

We cut short but the player couldn't have won the sitrep, They were far too spread out and uncoordinated, Operators harassed them from the rooftops of Size 6 structures and Hive made their life a living hell to get across. With how I played them in this game, they do feel like artillery/strikers but again I am still of the belief that they are more striker coded.

Now with how I played Operators, I think i am on to something with taking the hidden action. More on the feedback of each npc

#

I honestly should turn back to my roots and focused on foundational levels of my npcs, since the Kai Rebake NPCs do have a lot of synergetic moving parts compared to the CRB. Leading to more lethal punchback.

#

So feedback
Operators
Ran them with Overload Shot, Fade Generator and Deniable Asset. This was using OSR escort map ||Look Both Ways|| and so the Operators used their teleporting abilities to teleport directly on top of hard to reach structures and taking the hide action to force the players to ignore them even though they wanted to address them. They were hard to engage with this whole striker party and they were possibly the largest pain point for the team. When an Operator who couldn't teleport to the next building teleported to the ground, the Nelson rushed it down and tried to take it down, but thanks to fade cloak and a 19 on hit instead of crit, the Operator lives 2d6+3 damage worth of Filament blade attack and teleport behind a size 2 truck, the Nelson was quick to follow thanks to lockbreaker and Skirmisher but the Invisiblity and an evasion of 12 was more than enough to protect it from the aux fire. Used Overload shot while on the roof to get a wombo-combo on the Nelson and Empaakii, but the LCP wasn't marked with the heat which i found strange. But with the heat and Fade Cloak, this operator was redlining that reactor.

The second operator was able to make use of hidden more effectively, waiting for the Caliban and Gilgamesh to approach and when the Caliban exposes itself trying to take down the evasive sentinel. which all attacks from the flayer missed. The Operator quickly activated and teleported to the rooftops, taking a shot against the Caliban, it was a good thing they missed because that would have been lethal.

Assault
Solid and not as of standout compared to the Operators, Did damage against those out of cover, knocked players around with Underslung Grenade and due to the players trying to deal with the Hive and Sentinel, got out of combat nearly unscratched.

Hive
What a bully, Empaakii was a scary threat, immediately dealing a structure to it with core power but the support gave it enough sustain to keep it in the fight with restock drone. It had driving swarms and that was incredibly hard for the players to fight against and against the Empaakii, who grappled it. The sawrm allowed the Hive to slip away from its grasp with a well placed ram + Drone Barrage.

#

I do have to say that I think I sort of like this NPC roster, for one, this is a lot more lethal against HPmaxxing players, the Caliban had a pretty good evasion of 12 and that saved its ass more times than the Empaakii who got focused down due to their low Evasion

#

Support
A more supportive build instead of travel, Latch drone, Restock Drone, Empowered Cloud was the main reason that allowed the Hive and Sentinel to stay in the fight longer than they should. Empowered Cloud clear Jammed on Sentinel that it got from structuring and Latch drone to heal it for it to go in for another round. Restock drone helped save the Hive and because those 2 mechs got the beating instead of it? everytime the Empaakii would close the distace, the support would move further back from the frontline and let the Sentinel and Hive take the brunt.

#

Vet Sentinel
Great frontliner, It's more evasive than what the players perceived it to be and a lot of attacks miss it even when it was out in the open. The whole opfor was very ranged focused while the players had 3 close range specialist, which means that they immediately rushed down the npcs if it wasn't for the sentinel blocking the way. It took a real heavy beating and the most attacks from the flayer shotgun which many missed to. And when it got knocked to 1 structure and Jammed, the support was there to pick it up for another go at the caliban, thanks to marker rounds, Latch drone and a Barrage, the Sentinel structured the exposed Caliban and did probably the most damage in the sitrep.

#

With how I played the operators (taking the hide action whenever i can before teleporting in and causing chaos.) I enjoyed them alot more and they felt - well; Like operators. Although again the drawbacks that they had (lack of range) still showed greatly. With having their standard movement be the only movement where they have access to their trace drives, they used their actions more to find good places to hide and wait for a moment to strike and disappear

vale crescent
smoky bluff
#

Yeah Archer doesn't have superior Sentinel too, got to put that in too

rose hamlet
tulip hawk
rose hamlet
#

Feel free to discuss there

brisk flax
#

if that makes sense

#

it's certainly not nothing

#

(also it's very NPC context dependent as well)

rose hamlet
#

Well, it’s still begging for testing

brisk flax
#

Yeah I'd be interested to see how it pans out

rose hamlet
#

I’ll keep you posted!

brisk flax
#

I have a suspicion that a certain demographic of NPCs kinda doesn't care, and another cares VERY much to the point that I wonder if it wouldn't loop back around to the issue someone noted with Jammed where it's "this feels too much like death to be a meaningful distinction"

#

but then you can choose system trauma as an out

#

does your system trauma still have the 50/50 roll?

rose hamlet
#

Yes

brisk flax
#

gotcha

rose hamlet
#

Goal is “choose between short term action quantity vs long term action quality” so I’m hopeful

brisk flax
#

lemme know if you get any feedback on it, I'd be very interested to see how it shakes out

#

The hit was sufficient to disrupt the NPC's systems, forcing them to pass a Hull save or become Jammed until the end of their next turn. On a success, they become Impaired instead. If the NPC was already Impaired, they automatically fail this save. kicking around some stuff in the notepad based on yesterday's conversation

prime urchin
# brisk flax lemme know if you get any feedback on it, I'd be very interested to see how it s...

I did run a game with that rule fairly recently. Problem is I only had two multiple sturcture NPCs, and neither lasted particularly long, but for the little hope I had to see them survive, it really was an engaging decision to have to make. Having to choose between "this is better if I get the time to use it again" or "if I'm only gonna stay alive one more turn, might as well go all in" sure is an impactful choice to make.

#

especially since both had "systems/weapons I'm willing to lose if I absolutely have to", that way there's an actual choice to be made.

prime urchin
#

oh, elite commander Prism and veteran Knight if you're wondering, both from PPG.

plucky patrol
# brisk flax ```The hit was sufficient to disrupt the NPC's systems, forcing them to pass a H...

I'm very excited to see this plays! The hiccup I mentioned when discussing my own alt structure rules last night was that Impaired feels a little unimpactful to me when it takes up half the table. However very notably I've been playtesting with CRB NPCs (except for grunts) and their juiced accuracy, so I'm very interested to see if that still feels true or not with the Rebaked ones. The autofail if already Impaired feels like a particularly fun middle ground to me

indigo oasis
indigo oasis
#

Like perhaps less so, but I can definitely name a plural number of NPCs who can go a turn without using reactions, techs, or weapons. Meanwhile all NPCs want to move and take actions

smoky bluff
#

Archer with Brace, Ouch

indigo oasis
#

The main drawback I see with brace is the removal of the standard move, above all else

#

It makes enemies more of a sitting duck

#

A Jammed Demolisher can still Ram, Grapple, and Boost to set up, a Jammed Mirage can still Dataveil and Hide, and a Jammed Sniper can still Stabilize or Mark.

A Braced Demolisher can move at most 2 spaces into position or perhaps Earthshatter/Tech, a Braced Mirage may be able to do some tech support but is a sitting duck for whoever just structured it, and a Braced Sniper is helpless

#

Brace penalties are the most punishing to any unit that is desperate to reposition or set up, while Jam is worst for units who want to play offensively

#

Overall I’d call Brace more universally punishing than Jam

smoky bluff
#

And it's easier to clear Jam if you have a support in your team

#

Can't clear Brace with that

rose hamlet
#

But yeah happy to discuss playtest feedback on it over in PPG

carmine idol
#

So current player here that's done GMing, just off the heels of a Demolition combat with the following, all tier 2:

  • Commander Goliath
  • 2x Berserker
  • Support
  • Veteran Engineer
  • Spectre
  • Other units that increased too late to interact with

Goliath

This fella was great, held a choke/objective area and slowed us down with it's various control options plus the threat of being shotgun'd. Lack of resistance/armour paired with massive health pool made for a great different angle on tankyness.

Berserker

Loved the threat the Harpoon Gun put us under. Chain Axe and Aggression were appropriately threatening still which was superb. Not sure how it's stat spread compares to default but felt it's edef, evasion etc were well placed.

Veteran Engineer

Between the double turret placing and overcharge access, was able to make a superb crawling base of turrets, surprisingly quickly too. Didn't get to use Turret Nest as we never shot it or it's turrets.

Support

Not sure what it has in standard rules but it's NPC-PEBCAC and sealant spray we're fun aspects to play around, especially with the range limitations appearing to force it into the fray.

Spectre

Damage on the Monowire was perfectly conditional enough to play around and had very clear target priority based on it's interaction with armour. Led to a great and immediate reaction to pairing up from us players. Step felt like a well placed tool in it's kit without feeling unfair. Worth noting that we're running Tracking Bug as ignoring invisible and so after 3 rounds and some 20 damage, it got blasted.

Overall felt great, everything the npcs were doing felt strong within expected margins, their stats felt like they left clear and exploitable weakness and they appeared to play into their roles effectively from the GMs side.

#

@pulsar hound might have GM side feedback in time 😎👌

opal folio
#

has anyone had the chance to try Empowered Investiture yet? My gut sense is that stunning the priest pretty much condemns it to death, and that it doesn't seem worth it, but i'm curious what people's experiences have been

brisk flax
#

What this means is the priest can adopt a safer posture, then their buddy can wander elsewhere

#

Now whether this will pan out well in practice is what testing is for, but that's part of the idea

indigo oasis
#

In theory the priest could hide before using it

brisk flax
#

They could

#

If it DEFAULTS to having to hide before using it, that's indicative that it might be a bit rough

smoky bluff
#

Does it have to last until the end of its next turn? Looks like it could be until the start of the priest's next turn

brisk flax
smoky bluff
#

Where can I find that?

brisk flax
#

Empowered investiture?

#

Priest optionals

smoky bluff
#

No, the notes on testing

indigo oasis
#

It's pinned I think

brisk flax
#

That note

indigo oasis
#

The thing about ending at the end of its next turn almost makes hiding slightly worse, considering that if it ends up being hidden in a bad position it can't really do... anything before the stun sets in

brisk flax
#

This is my way of saying "I would like practical playtest feedback before I start making changes in the blind"

indigo oasis
#

But that just means its allies will have to play into the positioning/support for the priest to make it work

#

All of this in theory- now that this is brought up the practice of Empowered Investiture has piqued my interest

brisk flax
#

The priest hasn't gotten a ton of testing so far, I think

#

To me it's always been an NPC I've felt sort of unenthused by, it's felt kind of muddled and diffuse unless you're in it to just make one big guy more annoyingly unkillable

indigo oasis
#

A friend of mine used it, but he was a new GM, and also the priest only really Shielded itself and missed a tech attack before the combat ended. So not a good sample there

brisk flax
#

I think this version is still a little "bit of whatever" but I think that's a bit unavoidable

opal folio
#

i'm gonna be testing pyro and priest, both as vet elites, on an escort. one interesting thing about that setup is that the priest's veteran trait ends up being pretty underwhelming with that particular setup, so i gave it lightning reflexes instead

brisk flax
#

My guess is that sharing hardened target is going to be very contextually dependent on how useful it turns out

opal folio
#

Anyway, escort being a player-driven sitrep and the pyro being slow as hell mean that i immediately see empowered investiture as a weakness in this sitrep, so I'll have to try that one later

smoky bluff
#

I rarely run Priest since i find positioning of the priest to be quite difficult

#

For almost little to no benefit other than Accuracy and a bit of resistance

#

Since the Accuracy of most npcs got stripped I'll have to see for myself

brisk flax
#

so even a veteran can get SOME value out of it

opal folio
#

i'll hopefully be able to provide actual feedback on uh, Feedback and Fractal Assault this weekend

brisk flax
#

but it's true that you might also find it redundant

opal folio
brisk flax
#

so I do think that the positional and range limit on the priest re: investiture is kind of a big hangup of it as a unit

#

I strongly debated something similar to stack up or whatever that leech trait is that lets them move in parity with someone else, but I felt that was a little TOO frictionless

#

in the end, I elected to experiment with empowered investiture temporarily removing the link range limit and letting the priest keep its other abilities rather than hard focusing on investiture; it can hand out overshield and resistance, utilize things like fractal assault or sanctuary, etc

#

so my approach to this is basically letting the priest keep some of its "grab bag support" nature and letting the GM decide which of those tools works best with their comp

#

Investiture IS nerfed from the CRB version which offered stacking accuracy, which is a thing I frankly feel is a little excessive

#

broadly speaking, anything that did that (beyond the cataphract's base to-hit scaling) no longer does

#

so idk, maybe +1 accuracy at all tiers plus hardened target might prove a bit lackluster

#

oh but I did remove sharing impaired

#

that felt unnecessary

opal folio
#

i'll look for an opportunity to try empowered in a future combat but my instinct is that Jammed might be rough enough for what it confers.

smoky bluff
#

Yeah Jammed being a condition that the npc would get when structure is something you'll need to consider

#

Maybe when the new structure table comes out there will be a difference

#

Hmm, Empowered Priest would go crazy with a speedy assassin

#

Or any speedy unit in general

#

Combined that with Veteran and you got yourself a unit who isn't afraid to overcharge

brisk flax
#

I added Stack Up to the Bastion specifically because I feel that its CRB implementation makes it a little TOO static a defender

#

and also because I wanted to spread some additional movement around the catalogue

smoky bluff
#

Oh shit, Cataphract with Capacitor Discharge and Priest would go crazy

#

Eat your heat and expose it too

#

Abjure and Capacitor discharge are some great heat options to fight against heat buildup

#

Put a spite into the mix and you got yourself the HA fighters

brisk flax
#

coming back to empowered investiture and stun timing, the thing about flipping the stun until the start of the priest's turn is that things are a little weird with how the timing shakes out. See, with something like the Plasma Gauntlet, the stun timing (until the start of your next turn) makes sense: you do a thing, then you lose the ability to act afterward until your next turn, so it's largely about lowering your evasion, nullifying reactions, etc

#

The trick is, Empowered Investiture is used by the Priest, but doesn't expire and trigger the backlash until the ALLY'S turn ends

#

If it was "the priest gets stunned until the start of their next turn," it would be much easier to arrange it so the priest powers up the link, then the round rolls around and the empowered ally acts, then the priest goes again and basically suffers no real consequence

#

and you can't just have the priest immediately take the stun SoNT after using Empowered Investiture, because Investiture causes both parties to share Stunned, see

#

("well you could make Empowered Investiture ignore that part" it's already a pretty clause-heavy ability)

indigo oasis
#

I thought it was the end of the priest’s turn

#

Yeah if that’s the case, then objectively the Priest Hiding the same turn it uses Empowered Investiture is the on average optimal strat

#

And also the ability seems a lot more fun

brisk flax
#

Empowered Investiture is basically an ubercharge you throw on your ally

#

they get a turn to act fully powered up, then when it ends the link expires and the priest gets a stunned turn (the link expiring is to prevent the stun from propagating as well)

indigo oasis
#

Nah yeah I agree 100%, the actual version is way better

#

Ya know, using Empowered Investiture on a Pyro or Veteran (perhaps both) is pretty fantastic considering the target resists all heat, regardless of source

#

Same with a Telefrag Operator

#

Or an Ultra using Juggernaut/Auto-Repair

#

Ok not Juggernaut but yes Auto-Repair

#

A leech in particular would love it, even tho that’s expansion content and it would be a huge ask to consider that too heavily when it comes to rebakes balancing

#

But also potentially 5 Talon Attacks for 10/18/24 AP kinetic damage (depending on tier), with a higher chance to hit thanks to Investiture adding accuracy

#

… which isn’t that bad so 👍

#

(But I am absolutely gonna do that combo for my Ultra Leech fight down the road, and Deadly is gonna make that... well, deadly. That's a potential 3 Accuracy per attack if you throw Supreme Melee on there, and a Commander to keep the attack chain rolling)

indigo oasis
#

Alternatively, an Overcharging Pyro can fire their Flamethrower Twice and immediately reap the rewards of dealing burn the previous time, and not have to worry at all about overheating

#

Which, a high enough tier pyro can do anyway :P

#

The Heat resistance is by far the most entertaining part of Empowered Investiture

#

Ooh, Empowered Investiture on an Aegis, aka "The Doing Nothing Brothers"

#

Aegis goes first and sets up shield, Priest goes next and sets up empowered investiture, then they wait til the end of the next round before going while tanking all the Heat taken from missed shots

carmine idol
bold crystal
#

yes, but prepared action cheese to extend durations, while technically legal, is... not a trick to use or allow lightly, if at all.

#

there are many, many cases where 'prepare an arbitrary quick action' does something obscene.

smoky bluff
#

Yeah if you do that, prepare for your players to prepare their hacks to do the same from now on

carmine idol
#

Players already do, and it can be generally played around at least o7

smoky bluff
#

Its just unsportsmanlike, legal but it sure is annoying keeping track of 8 reactions

#

Tbh I'd just make it illegal for "at the start of a characters" turn to be the trigger

carmine idol
#

Start of character turn is illegal, its not an action

#

Nothing about it is unsportsmanlike at the table though, the games written this way - it will be played this way

oak acorn
young turtle
#

The thing with prepared actions is they're a lot more restrictive than you think, and a lot of people forget reactions always resolve AFTER their trigger has resolved

#

If you prepare Investiture for movement, it has to happen with a trigger of Standard Movement, meaning it will only resolve when the person is done with it, so its not like you can have the priest prepare it and have a character zip past the priest to get the investiture on the way

#

it would need to stop next to it

carmine idol
#

As a result, forced movement and other ways of breaking LoS can be used to make PCs or NPCs waste said prepared actions as they lose their shot to trigger entirely

smoky bluff
#

True, unless there is a system that does it before the triggering action, you will always apply the Prepare after. I should keep note of this

carmine idol
#

It works out fairly well that there is reasonable risk to setting up these double-turn buffs & debuffs, in that both characters either have to position defensively to set it up, or risk losing a whole bunch of turn to the ether.

smoky bluff
#

Although I do have moments when a mech prepares hor_us1 and right after I finish moving, i get moved back as a reaction

carmine idol
#

Such is the point of controllers I suppose ¯(°_o)/¯

rose hamlet
#

For basically that reason

vale crescent
#

Tortuga is also wack, a tortuga can just say "I prepare to shoot X enemy with my HMG after ANY character acts" is legal

#

Then they get +1 accuracy on it as a reaction

carmine idol
rose hamlet
vale crescent
#

Tbf I just play pretending prepare doesn't exist, to my players I've said "prepare exists. I will use it as much as my players do"

rose hamlet
#

Reminded of how PF2E does prepared actions, and it’s “use 2 of your 3 actions to prepare something that only costs 1 action”

vale crescent
#

Because enemy prepared actions can be as gnarly or potentially worse. Like drag down working over 2 turns or such

#

Fill action prepare?

rose hamlet
#

Yeah

#

Not as hot with Lancer since your “third action” is locked to standard move

#

As always: Overcharge noted

opal folio
#

is the grunt controller's Electro-Chaff supposed to last beyond its destruction btw?

vale crescent
#

Yeah

#

It lasts until end of scene

indigo oasis
#

It’s not perfect, hell it’s not even great, but it’s counterable

smoky bluff
#

Disengage when your players take the Prepare action? Right there was that method too

indigo oasis
smoky bluff
#

True but if that guy disengages then it's possible to at least get somewhere without intereference

#

Which is what most players would react to

indigo oasis
#

Which is the issue being brought up- the Tortuga can have the prepared action be triggered by someone, and that action can target someone entirely unrelated

indigo oasis
brisk flax
#

Hi, since this has now come up: if someone says "I don't have the paid lancer lcp for the NPCs, what do I do?" do not tell them "oh just use the rebake lcp." That is not what it's for!

#

This project is not "hi here's a substitute for using the paid lancer rules"

#

Do not even imply that it is

indigo oasis
#

I’m assuming that being an issue is a big reason why there’s a push to get this project published?

brisk flax
#

I mean the reason I want to get it published is that I want to get it published, but I also do not want people spreading the idea that this project is some clever way of me giving people a way to bypass buying lancer or whatever

#

Do not fucking do that

#

If someone doesn't own the game this won't give them the rules they need to do so anyway, but regardless

carmine idol
#

iirc even the lcp repo being made public was done under the expectation of that general goodwill tom is in fact just super cool and based, still don't actively suggest people avoid paying for paywalled content

brisk flax
# 
Hey Tom, I have a question for you:

A bunch of people have been fiddling around with hacking and revising the lancer core rulebook NPCs, that is to say "here is what my version of an Assault/Breacher/Hive/etc would look like" and people are wondering what your stance on this in in regards to things, because the NPCs in lancer are paywalled content, and a lot of these hacks while transformative are still often pretty clearly representative of the NPC they're based on to some degree.

So as the creator and custodian of the third-party license, what is your stance regarding projects like these?

1). Is it okay for people to compile things like pdfs or lcps of them and distribute them for free?
2). Is it okay for people to sell projects like this for money?```
```tom bloom — 1/17/2025 5:36 PM
hm, I feel like if its transformative enough its probably ok
honestly we make fucktons of money for a 2 person + contractor company its fucking bonkers I don't begrudge people making more content for the game
my attitude is generally like if i was more inclined i would just hire more people and like make more shit and then care about this but more content for the game is always a plus
let people get paid imho```
#

Here are tom's exact words on the subject

#

and also more or less his only words on it

#

Now tom is someone who has been pretty openly okay with piracy and whatever in the past, but the issue here isn't "is piracy okay," it is "what is the purpose of this project," and pitching it to people as "just use this if you don't have/want the core rulebook" is not kosher, sorry

rose hamlet
#

A weak form of deterrent could be putting an LCP dependency for the core NPC lcp, if that helps? Compcon will respect it at least, even if it’s easy to do the surgery to remove it

rose hamlet
brisk flax
#

Like COULD someone do that? I guess, it's not like there's a way to work on a project like this and stop people from trying, I'm not sure how else I would prevent that short of password locking it or something, or doing some other sort of DRM or whatever, but I think in general I would simply prefer people not go around telling someone complaining about not having the CRB files "oh just use this one"

subtle nacelle
#

yea, that's totally possible

carmine idol
#

it certainly feels actively encouraging people not to pay for paywalled content is fundamentally no different to going "here's my g-drive link to the crb lcps"

rose hamlet
brisk flax
#

sure, if some sort of LCP dependency is possible then go for it

#

my only concern would be if it makes the lcp freak out when you try to use it

#

if it doesn't then great

rose hamlet
#

It’ll just prevent an install unless the other lcp is installed first, on CompCon

#

Other third-party projects likely won’t pay attention to the field but it could at least nudge some folks to pay for the crb first

brisk flax
#

I was unaware enforcing such a dependency was possible, or I probably would have suggested it sooner

rose hamlet
#

Yeah it was introduced… not recently but like maybe a year or two ago

subtle nacelle
#

it's definitely on the softer side of enforcements, but should stop people from just plug-and-play

indigo oasis
rose hamlet
#

Useful for folks making variant frames for non CRB stuff

brisk flax
#

sure, even if it's a minor speedbump I think it'll be fine

#

yes, someone can do lcp surgery, at that point I'm in the "whatever" category

#

my issue is, again, less piracy (the server rules forbid it but I am personally a pretty big and outspoken "piracy is fine" person) and more just making it clear that the purpose of this project is not "hello, I am making Lancer: You Don't Need To Buy Lancer Edition"

rose hamlet
#

If it does come down to “this needs obfuscated more” I think there may be options for the LCP. Ugly and inconvenient options, but options nonetheless

vale crescent
#

Surely peeps can also just go back a tag in the git to get the newest LCP, but that probably falls under thr "good enough" clause of effort

brisk flax
rose hamlet
#

The recently rediscovered override field comes to my mind for stats

#

Yeah it would be a nuclear option

subtle nacelle
#

I was honestly considering deleting all previous releases of the lcp

carmine idol
rose hamlet
brisk flax
#

yeah I'd prefer not to do that if possible

#

that would make it a little too hostile for the use experience

#

and the idea IS you should be able to mix and match stuff if you want

brisk flax
#

like to be honest, people who want to use playtest lcps and documents have been able to get out of paying for lancer stuff since basically the outset

#

so fundamentally it's just sort of par for the course, I simply do not want people going "oh, here, use this as a workaround"

#

maybe I should have actively taken more preventative measures to stop that from the outset, idk

rose hamlet
# brisk flax yeah I'd prefer not to do that if possible

10000000% agreed. It’s very much a “only if necessary” option because it would be a PITA to setup the override “optional features” and then tell folks “hey to make a rebaked Assault first make a normal assault, then remove all normal features and add these other features marked as Rebake”

#

Just. Yeah.

#

Emergency sidearm option for self defense

#

It sucks and hopefully you’ll never need it

subtle nacelle
#

i dont think you should be beating yourself up for this. LCPs are really transparent data formats and your work too. people being dicks is not your fault

brisk flax
#

as far as prepared action bullshit goes, at this point I would sooner chew glass than contemplate the ins and outs of prepared actions and I will probably just make empowered investiture a protocol

indigo oasis
brisk flax
fluid zodiac
#

From my understanding of LCPs (which is admittedly limited as I've only made a few), wouldn't it be possible to not include statblocks and just have a trait that modifies the stats up/down as necessary?

#

It's a sideways method of doing it, but it would technically kinda get the job done

opal folio
brisk flax
#

you would have to essentially, yes, encode those as bespoke traits

#

and I'm not sure the traits would actually modify the stat blocks

#

that is, idk if "this trait modifies this thing up/down 1 point" would functionally do so in all cases

#

at this point I would rather simply use the "check to see if the core NPC lcp is present" thing

fluid zodiac
#

It's definitely the easier way of doing it, yeah

#

Especially since there's be a lot of weird duplication of base features, with a stat modifying trait since it would still use the base NPC type, and several of them have altered base systems already.

#

can you tell my solution to writing LCPs is usually quite brute force

subtle nacelle
#

you can't have traits that modify traits, so you'd need to remove base traits too

fluid zodiac
#

My inexperience with the format made me not realize the implications giveup

rose hamlet
brisk flax
#

right, at the end of the day I care about "does this make it suck shit to use, y/n"

#

and if it does make it suck shit, then I don't want to use it

indigo oasis
#

If the point is to make intent clear, the LCP check is probably enough

indigo oasis
brisk flax
#

Yeah I don't see why I wouldn't, it can already get that from Dispersal Shield

indigo oasis
#

Doesn’t Dispersal Shield only affect the attack that dissipates it?

#

Eg, it doesn’t affect non attacks or missed attacks, including Overcharge heat, saves, and reliable damage?

brisk flax
#

yeah but my point is more "I don't think heat resistance, even self-heat, is outside the remit of the priest to apply to itself"

#

you're going to get resistance to one veteran-side overcharge

#

two if the priest also overcharges, to do...something I guess

indigo oasis
#

Gotcha- it’s probably not broken but I was curious, considering how potent Heat resistance tends to be. But for NPCs it’s a lot less potent considering the significant lack of heat sources

brisk flax
#

well also the thing is, like, when PCs are doing heat stuff it's in the context of "yes I would like to fire this heavy weapon as often as possible" and usually not with, like, the amount of prerequisites and aftereffects

indigo oasis
#

Ah yeah that is a thing

#

Btw, I had a friend run the rebakes in his first lancer game ever. All the players were new, and the combats I was in I didn’t get much a chance to feel out the changes to the NPCs present, so most of the feedback that could be given is a bit null. But he did have this bit to say about the Wraith Nexus however, which hope will be useful:

image0.jpg
#

He didn’t use it much, but it was a Sentinel in a homebrew football Sitrep, it had more important actions

#

It was a Commander Ultra with Wrath Lock and Press the Attack too if that helps

indigo oasis
brisk flax
#

Sure, though I'm going to very strongly disagree that a secondary weapon (which most NPCs will not have access to) that gives access to three different debuffs (among them shredded and blinded) is a case of "crit not being necessary"

indigo oasis
#

Where’d it say that?

brisk flax
#

"but like, just looking at it, all three effects are situational, so crit isn't that necessary"

indigo oasis
#

Ah right

brisk flax
#

it's possible I'm misreading this

indigo oasis
#

Yeah he meant “you don’t need to get the crit effects for it to be useful”

brisk flax
#

ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh

#

okay yeah sorry that wasn't clear

indigo oasis
#

Happens to the best of us

brisk flax
#

So their feedback is, essentially, that they found the nexus useful even without the crit effect, basically?

indigo oasis
#

Essentially yes

brisk flax
#

Gotcha

#

Makes sense, sorry for the misunderstanding

indigo oasis
#

Though it does greatly benefit from allies and traits that spot

brisk flax
#

yeah

indigo oasis
#

All in all, working as intended

brisk flax
#

it's part and parcel of "encourage lock on/accuracy"

fierce night
#

very excited to test this this weekend

#

I haven't internalised every change yet, but in my skimming I think I spent the entire time nodding along

pulsar hound
# carmine idol So current player here that's done GMing, just off the heels of a Demolition com...

Okay, thoughts from the GM side of this combat. I’m kinda tired so this might get a bit rambly:

SITREP

Custom-tooled Demolition: 5 targets, destroy with a quick action, taget detonates end-of-next-round. 6 round limit.
Map was 25 x 29 tiles

PCs (LL4)

  • CQB Barbarossa (@limpid flint)
  • Controller/Support Chomolungma (@carmine idol)
  • Sniper Oleander ( @robust sage )
  • CQB Lycan ( @charred turtle )

OPFOR

  • 1x Commander Goliath (Mag Gauntlet, Bolster Network)
  • 2x Berserker (Harpoon Cannon)
  • 1x Veteran Engineer (Skyshield Protocol, Turret Nest)
  • 1x Barricade (Titan-Snare Drone)
  • 1x Support (Remote Reboot)

Reinforcements:

  • 2x Bastion (Stack Up)
  • 2x Assault (Rank Discipline)
  • 1x Specter (Step)

All units were Tier 1 except the Goliath, who was upscaled to T2.

Feedback

  • Goliath feels extremely good - once engaged in Round 2 he stayed a constant menace until finally dying in Round 6. Additional health more than makes up for Siege Armor by being completely unconditional. Used Mag Gauntlet once, and didn't get it off. Ignoring engagement with the shotgun also came in handy during the Goliath/Barbarossa kaiju battle.
  • Berserkers performed about in-line with core - one died instantly to a bonus-damage-stacked oleander shot at point-blank range during a failed abduction, while the other refused to die for 3 rounds straight while turning into a mechanized blender. Did their job remarkably.
  • Engineer was deployed in the backline, but otherwise felt very good. New Deployable Turrets lets it set up much faster, while Target Designator prevents it obliterating someone without some added setup. Turret Nest with Overcharge seems like it should be a good panic defense, but nobody actually shot this guy.
  • On Veteran - base overcharge feels extremely good, and gives my hacker something reliable to chew on. Love it.
#
  • Barricade feels great, durability feels about right with shock armor gone. Drag down being a base system gives it nice flexibility, and Mobile Printer also sees a lot more use. This man was causing problems.
  • Support Did its job, got off a clutch remote reboot on round 4. Not much feedback as this guy was basically a vanilla kit - we did have a Desant Hardpoints Vehicle last combat that I think gave my players nightmares. I’m not sure if Flying with it is legal, but it was funny.
  • Bastions are my favourite lugs, and now they’re even better. Stack Up opens very nice combos, especially with the Assault - Really loving the added movement options across the roster.
  • Assault feels lot a more focused, but I only got a round or two of testing. Mix of Stack Up/Rank Discipline made this guy competitive even when enemies had cover, but nobody really got around to breaking them up. Worked as expected, I think the Hunker Down slow is a nice touch. Kinda want to try a Veteran/Commando/Stormtrooper one of these, seems like it’d be a menace.
  • Specter, the second bane of my party’s existence. The Oleander was using a slightly tweaked tracking bug (ignores Invisibility), so there was no need to use the cloak-disabling full action. This guy got a good hit or two in before the party decided to smear him across the forest floor, and ultimately the doubled-armor passive meant he had to choose his targets a lot more carefully. Still a good damage threat, but he’s not going to structure a defender without some added work. I’d call this a success off that alone.
vale crescent
#

Wanna double check wordingg on Solipsis swarm for hives

At the start of their turn, hostile characters within Range 3 of the Hive take 2/3/4 burn. This counts as
taking burn from a razor swarm

This means that when the Hive starts their turn, they pulse and deal damage in range 3 correct? Not when a hostile starts their turn in rangge they take the burn

#

And additionally, is iceout drone immune to command override from hives as it's a tech action

#

No it isn't... Because the tech action happens and the drone just moves... Not because it's targetted... Heh

rose hamlet
#

Otherwise it would be “at the start of the hive’s turn, they take damage”

vale crescent
#

It's the ambiguity of who "they" is, being the

#

Ok that makes sennse

#

Damn Enby hives

rose hamlet
#

Reminded again why I purposefully broke ranks with the CRB and used “it” as the pronouns for the NPC owning the feature and “they” for other characters interacting with the feature

vale crescent
#

WHo out here making all their NPCs use Neopronouns for ambiguitiy

opal folio
#

Pc culture has gone too far

plucky patrol
#

imagine using them for ambiguity when you can use em for disambiguity

#

each NPC class has their own pronouns and I will only be referring to them as such

brittle cipher
brittle cipher
bold crystal
indigo oasis
smoky bluff
#

Its a tier 2 goliath so it has more health

indigo oasis
#

Mmm ok

#

Isn’t that unchanged from CRB?

vale crescent
#

Yeah, hp scaling is same in both

smoky bluff
#

He is also saying that the extra health helps the goliath without siege armor

indigo oasis
#

It just stood out because the Goliath is objectively less bulky than it is in the base game

#

The only change to make the Goliath more bulky was improving evasion and e-defense, and its main defensive trait that could double its HP in the right conditions was removed

brisk flax
#

So the Goliath essentially has a quicker "time to impact" with more of its stuff linked to Sensors and its Sensors back at 10

#

In terms of bulk yes, it remains unchanged, but my hope is to find a way to work it so I don't need to pad its HP out to the point where a tier 1 Goliath ultra might have like 40 HP/tier and be a massive sponge

#

I have concerns that at a certain point, HP per structure hits a bad point of excess

brisk flax
#

Most damaging aura/area effects tend to work on that basis

indigo oasis
#

Yeah I was moreso remarking about how odd it was for the feedback to note that as a change when there straight up wasn’t one there. Seems to me the feedback is saying there’s no need for an HP change

indigo oasis
#

A Goliath is meant to be tanky, but if you’re worried about it dying too fast… give it a template. Which seems to have been what folks are doing

brisk flax
#

I think 25 HP to chew through is pretty solid, it mainly seems to be a case of like long range artillery bursting it down, but tbh I feel like that's probably an okay win to hand the players

#

Like yeah okay if you brought the siege cannon to a goliath fight then go get'em

indigo oasis
#

“Players should never be rewarded for their choices” said some people. Probably. Who are wrong.

#

(That was a joke making fun of a strawman) (we’ve all heard horror stories about that type of person tho) (hopefully most of us haven’t met them)

brisk flax
#

Re: Desant Hardpoints and flight, my understanding is that the venerable Lancaster can't do this with MULE Harness, which is why the Taraxacum was invented

#

So all being equal, I don't believe giving a Support flight would allow it to do that either

#

You're basically running afoul of the "carrying people while flying" restrictions unless otherwise specified

indigo oasis
#

Idk if it’d be a problem tho? The only ways a Support could access flight is by being a Vehicle or an Ultra. One is super high powered and makes sense to bend those rules a little, and the other is much more restricted in what it can do (it can’t Improvised Attack or Grapple for example, two fallbacks the Support is patented for using to make up for its lack of attacks)

#

Outside of that, it’s homebrew and other 3rd party material, which is a grayspace that doesn’t need to be factored

brisk flax
#

Okay but "does this work?" is a question that I, the person making the content, am answering with "no it does not"

indigo oasis
#

Fair enough

brisk flax
#

I can't police someone's table and have no interest in doing so, but to be clear, you cannot air taxi people around via mule harness related stuff outside of things like the very restricted limits on carrying people via flight

#

if you want to break that? I'm not your dad

#

if you're asking, specifically, "is this intended to work this way," then no

indigo oasis
#

It was more musing “should Desant be allowed to be an exception officially, or is it not worth doing?”

#

And it seems like it’s probably not worth it lol

brisk flax
#

I don't really feel like having it work differently because I imagine if it did that everyone would see that and go "oh I should make a flying carrier"

#

when you carve out an exception like that, people have a tendency to fixate on it

#

beyond that, I can see it being very aggravating in certain comps and contexts to have a guy just playing flying gun platform while giving a bunch of adjacency bonuses to the passengers, especially with ways to clear debuffs etc

smoky bluff
#

True, it would be extremely funny after all to have a support with desant hard points with an engineer buddy on top, putting turrets on the guy to map a walking small landship

#

Such an idea isn't allowed but it's fun!

#

Could be for thematic reasonings too

plucky patrol
#

also like, if you really want an NPC that can carry other characters in the air, you can just give it the ship template

indigo oasis
#

Tru

smoky bluff
#

Right that template

#

Rarely seen it i wonder how a ship bastion would play

indigo oasis
#

Ship my beloved <3 Possibly the Template that fucks the most with the game mechanics

#

Yes, even more than Ultra

plucky patrol
#

combo it with Exotic to make the Ship biological

#

reject rules, embrace anarchy

indigo oasis
#

Considering that Ships are immune to stun and immobilized I won't be doing that

smoky bluff
#

Is it because it is no longer tagged as a mech but ship?

plucky patrol
#

the condition immunities? it has a trait that gives it those

smoky bluff
#

Flier I see

#

Makes sense i suppose, don't want the ship to suddenly just crash

pulsar hound
pulsar hound
#

But yeah with that in mind, I think the HP is fine as-is - this guy only got uptiered for a better save target

vale crescent
#

On the topic of a goliath HP bonus... does the goliaths HP even need ti be a multiple of 5?

#

Would it just be wonky if the t1 HP was like... 26-28 or something.

fringe peak
#

I have priest play test feedback!

#

The tldr was it was used in an altered control sitrep with an archer, 2 elite breaches and a squad.

In terms of what I felt like... Players had suitable enough weapons to shoot the priest when it took a more defensive posture after using empowered.

Empowered does kinda incentive the go first then go last mentality so you'd generally want to slap it on an enemy on with doing so?

I do wanna test this out with an elite priest with additional turns to like move a little further after applying empowered.

Operator feels a little better with fade generator but he feels a little too close range for an artillery, funnily enough I got the most use out of telefrag, deniable asset and the veteran trait than anything. Which isn't bad just really funny.

indigo oasis
fringe peak
#

Mb not elite with a priest. I mean pairing it with a specter. A concept I had was using step to reposition the priest after its turn happens to get it somewhere safer

indigo oasis
#

Like a Grapple Kidnap?

smoky bluff
#

I ran a vet priest today too, but it got nuked by siege cannon tagetes

fringe peak
#

Ye more or less

smoky bluff
#

Like it was gone, no more health

#

Yeah you feel the same way too don't you? Operator is a bit too close range and their kit wants to go close range

vale crescent
#

We love super heavy annihilating low HP fools

smoky bluff
#

I ran 3 operators today

The first was lucky to not get crit and survive the siege cannon, it fade cloaked and got out a double character overload shot, missed one of them due to guardian, stressing in the process before dying to assault rifle

The 2nd got turned into a chewtoy by a Kasai from vaction to DSR homebrew, did some damage with erasure but that was it

And the third got critted by siege cannon, and so died

vale crescent
#

Nice hitpoints veteran spec ops scout, counterpoint. My DD288 just brute forced your invis

smoky bluff
#

The operator just doesn't have enough space to move away and even if it does, it's not enough to protect itself against incoming artillery fire.

#

Although again, it's very polarising because having 3 close range specialist in the last encounter, the operators just hides away from the action, let the close range guys close the gap, then blast them before running away

#

Boost can't help it escape so hiding to hope to reach the next round is going to be the best course of action for them

#

Cuz that's how the operator who exposed himself and at 2 HP lived that long, he went to hide and was able to get that overload shot when the players came to them, then he died cuz overload shot was a full action

#

And if there are good cover around, teleporting around makes hiding a lot more viable

#

I'll write a more detailed report in round order later

#

Its pretty late for me

indigo oasis
#

I know it’s not gonna be changed, I’m not saying it should be changed because in terms of concept I really like Telefrag and (like Predatory Logic) it’s too iconic to ditch, but I kinda feel like Telefrag in general shouldn’t exist because it really clashes with the Operator’s intended playstyle

#

If Operator had a disengagement teleport in place of Telefrag as an optional, it’d give some more meaningful survival options

smoky bluff
#

What i can currently say after using most of the operator's optionals

Telefrag: Useful at denying an enemy from acting and making openings for other npcs to exploit at the cost of health. The range 15 teleport is funny to me because it's akin to a Nelson being described as an Artillery but it is the bullet. Teleporting away after taking said action is also great and it being a quick action allowed for moving up to 10 spaces of teleport and taking another action to keep safe. Like hide. But it is very striker coded

Overload shot: requires preparation and aggression, one that the operator cannot afford, the operator needs to be careful if it wants to land a Overload shot collateral. It needs to get in closer than normal without the luxury of movement abilities to get away, the best case senarios is when the players are moving towards it, it acts and hides in preparation and in the next round, the operator strikes and leaves with its Base movement speed and more if needed and if possible.

Fade Generator, Hard to use as the many situations it will be used is when Artillery players starts firing on it and it still needs to act on the attack. There are use cases against strikers but without any sort of damage negation, they are fragile enough to be left reeling from the attack that most of the time it's better to take the invisibility risk and burn your reactor to keep surviving.

Singularity Grenade: Probably the most strongest optional in the operator's kit. It can change control sitrep outcomes and it's not hard for the operator to use thanks to the free teleport movement after using said system. Unlike the others it's very dangerous when mutiple operators have it. It covers utility, offense, control and defense

Deniable assest: Useful, but with how I played my operators, they wouldn't want to be anywhere near the range it can be used.

#

Additional critique from player, and i quote "there are a lot of things in this rebake that screws with melee builds"

#

Npcs directed with this critique

  • Operator (Self-Erasure)
  • Pyro (Firebreak shield, unshielded reactor)
  • Cataphract (Capacitor Discharge)
  • Demolisher
  • Ronin
  • Berserker
indigo oasis
#

As a GM who’s melee player could’ve pretty much solo’d my last mission: good (joke) (sort of)

vale crescent
smoky bluff
#

Well tbh I was running heavy brawl beatdown npcs and operators who are good at flanking just so happen to have self-erasure so it could be a critique to my composition

vale crescent
#

Can you elaborate on the "screws with melee builds"

#

Melee builds are incredibly varied

smoky bluff
#

This is a homebrew mech to take the comment with a pinch of salt, it is also not what I would say the best melee builds as the player undermounted his heavy weapon mount with a catalytic hammer and proceeded not to use any hammers.

The Kasai is a homebrew mech from Vacation to DSR by pyromaniacpaladin that specialises in the same field as a blackbeard and they share many similarities, (boost while grappling, low heat cap, decent mobility)

The Kasai dove right into the gauntlet objective where the pyro was sitting on and tried taking it down, the pyro had unshielded reactor and so the kasai who only had 6 heat at quite a bit of heat. The pyro went in and burned the poor creature but due to it being a homebrew, it lacked the engineering difficulty, although it still failed the burn check. It had only 1 threat range and a Cataphract and Operator came in as reinforcements. The Kasai charged the operator, and turned it into its chewtoy, Self-Erasure, it's still fine however. Then it overcharges, then it attacks the Cataphract, and the Cataphract had Capacitor discharge, causing it to become exposed. And then the comment was made about melee builds

#

The kasai is alot stronger than the blackbeard when it comes to damage output from my experience when built right but it lacks the health of the blackbeard, although that weakness can be built around

indigo oasis
#

But also that sounds fairly successful on the player end

smoky bluff
#

Yeah my op for was built to punish said behaviour which it did pretty well. Even still. The Paracausal Levi HAC Saladin in the team was just in time to kill everything else that could've exploited the exposed

indigo oasis
#

Unshielded Reactor did get buffed tho, but that doesn’t seem to be too big a point in your example

smoky bluff
#

Also The Saladin had CP active so 2 veteran berserkers ended up killing themselves, absolute cinema

indigo oasis
#

I don’t see the issue here tbh

#

A melee fought a pyro and a cataphract and took a bad beating, that’s wouldn’t have gone much differently with the CRB NPCs

#

The Operator may have made things worse if it was CRB in fact, since it wouldn’t have even been close enough to hit and it’s raptor rifle would’ve been far more devastating

smoky bluff
#

True, maybe it's because it was only round 2 and they already got an exposed teammates so quickly without me throwing any tech attacks

indigo oasis
smoky bluff
#

So currently, I found operators to be great assets in close range npc composition like the one I ran just now, with so many npcs up in the faces of the players, causing engagement and all that problematic stuff, the operators would've been able to run rampant and go crazy on them, however, quick prioritisation and counter artillery efforts quickly put a stop to them before they even made a play

smoky bluff
#

But that's like saying that this artillery frame appreciates other npcs being the ones who face the enemy instead to prevent the enemy from coming over to punch them and that's what makes it different from other artillery frames

bold crystal
carmine idol
#

So my personal feelings on running Operators is that they actually have to position now and generally don't want to end turn being in LoS ever, but with foes pinned down can afford to position more aggresively for an opportunistic Line attack round. This compared to the positioning criteria being "literally wherever I want in range 24-ish".

indigo oasis
vale crescent
#

It is still base

#

I was gonna say it's good now

#

That's a lie, it's better now

#

As it deserves to be

bold crystal
indigo oasis
vale crescent
# smoky bluff Npcs directed with this critique - Operator (Self-Erasure) - Pyro (Firebreak sh...

Tbf looking at this, only 2 things are really different... pyro and capacitor discharge... but like, imo good. Some of those mechs are made to be anti close range so it sounds like they're doing their job. Self erasure IMO feels like a gimmick trait and getting caught in it... skill issue tbh. Berserkers from my playtest haven't changed tok much but I liked them before
Ronins, ngl skill issue. They're anti ranged melee attackers

indigo oasis
#

And Ronin got, on an objective tho positive level, nerfed

vale crescent
#

They can actually overwatch now (wow)

bold crystal
indigo oasis
#

Tru, but most of the rebakes tried to cleave as close to the core design while refining the concepts, so fundamental changes are a rarity- the operator appears to be the big exception

#

Earthshatter makes Demolishers able to defend better by placing cover and gives it ranged skirmish capabilities to counter its slow speed and Superheavy primary weapon, which is notable

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But I did just realize that, for this specific playtest, it simply didn’t come up and thereby wasn’t really relevant

brisk flax
#

"Demolisher, Berserker, and Ronin are strong against melee characters" wow really?

#

Three of the NPC roster's premier melee shitkickers are strong in close combat, you say

indigo oasis
#

My b

rose hamlet
brisk flax
#

yeah I mean idk man, if someone runs an All Close Range Deterrent NPC Comp I guess I can see how that might feel rough for all close-range PCs, but at the same time "these melee units are strong in melee" feels like, I'm sorry, a bit of a silly critique

carmine idol
#

I recall someone saying players should be rewarded for their decisions earlier today - I suppose the relevant opposite right now is "players deserve to be punished for their decisions"

rose hamlet
brisk flax
#

re: things like Unshielded Reactor, this is a trait that I have personally found to be highly irrelevant (in the CRB version) in most cases because a 2 speed unit that requires adjacency to proc any sort of effect is one that probably isn't going to come up a whole lot

indigo oasis
brisk flax
#

"oh wow the pyro can cause heat if someone's next to it, that's cool, I'll just wait until someone obligingly walks across the map to do so"

bold crystal
brisk flax
#

also, just to note, unshielded reactor isn't ally friendly, so players are free to take advantage of this themselves

#

that bigger radius cuts both ways

indigo oasis
#

It’s fine and necessary, they got enough HP, but it’s weird to me

bold crystal
brisk flax
#

as far as capacitor discharge goes, I'm not sure how you'd begin to evaluate a cost/tradeoff breakdown between "double resistance and AP damage while adjacent" versus "heat against melee attacks"

bold crystal
brisk flax
#

I'll be using the wording lancer uses, which is "all characters"

indigo oasis
#

How come Immobilized no longer stops Capacitor Discharge now anyhow, but slowed does?

brisk flax
#

Or what can happen to a Cataphract grappling an equal size opponent who gets control flipped?

#

Immobilized as a shutdown clause for capacitor discharge makes "sense," but the problem is that the Cataphract is someone with grappling in their base kit, and I feel like it could be weirdly awkward for it to have an optional that switches off if/when it becomes Immoblized via said grappling

#

like fundamentally I'm not resolutely opposed to the idea BUT I think it's in a place of potential anti-synergy (and I feel that way about the CRB version which does shut off via Immobilized)

#

maybe that's not a big deal, I don't know

bold crystal
# brisk flax I'll be using the wording lancer uses, which is "all characters"

I mean it's the difference between the berserker's aggression having the explicit 'hostile or allied' callout vs it not - it doesn't change the effect, but it makes people read it twice and go 'oh this does something to everyone' with less chance of it just being misread. it's not strictly necessary but I feel like it's worth being pointed out

brisk flax
#

But that was the reason behind the decision

#

Jammed also does tie in, orthogonally, to the alternate NPC structure damage tables, and there are several other rebake NPC abilities which shut down upon being Jammed

#

(it also has electrified lasso for more grappling as well etc)

indigo oasis
brisk flax
#

like I don't really have a big stock of "feedback experience" from people using cataphracts with capacitor discharge to see how often this issue comes up in practice

#

it's possible that it's not really a major deal

#

THEMATICALLY "slowed and immobilized" make sense as shutdown conditions for it

smoky bluff
#

Well tbh most of my pyros are always too out of position to actually do that and the times that it would matter are times i wouldn't always never notice, at least I have something to look out for theses kinds of things

brisk flax
#

This is also how the baseline unshielded reactor works as well: note the wording there

#

it's never been ally friendly, it's just that it's rarely something that comes up in practice much of the time

indigo oasis
#

It’s a weird trait to go to a Defender

brittle cipher
#

for an Ally Defender sure, but not for (stealing Valk's terminology) an Objective Defender

Unshielded Reactor is very much an objective defender tool - it exists to help the pyro say "Stay The Fuck Off My Point Or Die About It", its not a tool for keeping the pyro's allies safe

brisk flax
#

more or less yeah

#

the problem with it, implementation-wise, is it's extremely impractical to have come up

#

it's on a Speed 2 unit with, at most, a recharge-linked movement ability on an optional and it requires you get right into point-blank range for it to come up

#

it's basically either a Threat 1 melee/grapple deterrent or something you have to really try messing with forced movement to get any juice out of, and the payoff is frankly not that exciting for that amount of work

#

hence the area expansion

#

and yeah the pyro isn't ally friendly in general, its "set the ground on fire" stuff can also be exploited in that regard

brittle cipher
#

good times

indigo oasis
#

There’s also the fact only Control is the only Sitrep where there is outright zones to control and the Pyro doesn’t need to share the zones

#

Even if it’s defending an objective, in Holdouts, Gauntlets, Recons- it’s gonna have a tough time being in the right place to hold them

#

Not saying this needs to be fixed, and not like I have enough experience to say much about it, but it seems like an issue that would come up

brisk flax
#

anyway the broader point that sparked this being "the rebake screws melee builds" is something I am tremendously unconvinced of

#

particularly when the examples given are things like "demolishers and berserkers exist"

#

I should hope so!

smoky bluff
#

Yeah i did tell him that it might just be my opfor composition but it's a critique that stood out to me none the less

brisk flax
#

the ronin is also kind of a weird one to bring up there because arguably engaging it in melee is the significantly better option than not

smoky bluff
#

Well with what I like to believe, getting hit not nice :(

daring surge
#

Engaging the rebake ronin in melee is already a way better deal than CRB ronin

smoky bluff
#

Yeah well, the Kasai in my game decided to ignore it and go for the pyro, let him be he's having fun

daring surge
#

But out of curiosity Kai, do you think that as it is, being a melee mech in CRB means having generally a tougher time? You have to budget for bulk, mobility, and contend with traits like shock armour or point-defense shield or monstrosity's spined.

Whereas a ranged mech can just slap seeking on their weapon and ignore a lot of the issues they might face?

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That's the consensus for my group, generally speaking

smoky bluff
#

Yeah there is a meme going around that I've picked up that the best main melee weapon out there is the DSAS combined arms 2, Vanguard 3

brisk flax
#

yeah and people say "the best melee weapon is the HMG"

#

people say lots of dumb shit

#

my experience is that people get very caught up in Hot Take Based Decision Making and that I do not generally trust those sorts of takes to be an accurate assessment of things

trail pivot
#

most melee mechs in the game also have higher bulk and mobility by default

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See> any ips-n Melee frame, the HA melee frame also haveing built in range and threat extension, all the ssc melee frames being naturally fast and evasive, and the horus melee frame having regenerating HP

#

along with nearly all of them having some kind of threat extension on the license or just weapons with increased threat

#

the trade off for being melee is you kind of already have tools handed to you and also you deal more damage by default, and it just tends to be the case that a lot of players attracted to melee don't really want to think about anything other than "hit guy with sword"

brisk flax
#

also to be perfectly frank:
1). "budgeting for bulk" is a nonfactor because everyone does this, none of the "the best melee weapon is [ranged weapon]" people are also not pumping points into hull
2). mobility issues have only gotten significantly easier to mitigate in lancer as time has gone on, to the point that I frankly think it's potentially overcorrected

daring surge
#

I reckon Pankrati 2 does a lot of heavy lifting for mobility. But if damage is the only goal, DSAS or HMG objectively do a lot of damage compared to a mleee equivalent.

smoky bluff
#

Yeah mobility for players is insane

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Its hard not to stop them, so many "ignore engagement" rules that i always need to remember that usually, this situation causes engagement

brisk flax
#

I also can't help but notice that every time there's been a big melee-oriented frame first party release (Empakaai, Lycan) a bunch of people completely lose their shit about it

smoky bluff
#

Well tbh, this is critique more to the melee weapons you can mount compared to the ranged weapon. Melee mechs with integrated weapons are a different quality

daring surge
#

I think Empakaai and Lycan are good standout frames that give melee more identity. Being in the frontline means more risk of being shot at and hacked, so having a higher reward makes sense to me.

smoky bluff
#

Heck even the GMS Heavy Melee Weapon is outclassed

#

3 license level into Raleigh and you got yourself a better heavy melee weapon

surreal zenith
#

you say that like that's not a major character progression investment

smoky bluff
#

It is but people like heavy machine gun even though they are alternatives

#

Who here likes GMS heavy melee weapon

brisk flax
#

my stance on this take (melee is outclassed in lancer) is:
1). I find it dumb, reductive, and very often based on selective interpretation and cherry picking
2). I have zero interest in it taking up more real estate in this thread

daring surge
#

Well, thanks for the response nonetheless

brisk flax
#

in terms of the rebake and how it intersects with melee, for the most part I see it as being fairly value neutral. Like, I don't think I want to go line item by line item through 30 NPCs of stuff, but:
1). 3/4 artillery NPCs have had range reductions
2). Several objective defenders are now more dangerous in a wider radius
3). The Assault is a mixed bag: is +1 Accuracy against people out of cover better or worse against melee? How do you evaluate that against Reliable damage? Or the existence of Combined Arms/smoke grenades/whatever
4). A lot of "hostile area creation" NPCs have had hard limits placed on the amount of shit they can spam everywhere (hives, seeders, etc)

#

etc

#

like you can point to the goliath getting siege armor removed and go "well that's a buff to ranged guys" and sure I guess it is

#

you can also point to the ronin no longer being a multi-attack scaler who gets bonus damage off crits and say that's a buff to melee guys

#

I think if you make a comp that's "here's all the really dangerous close range guys and a bunch of melee shitkickers" that it will feel pretty brutal against melee, meanwhile you could also just make a comp that's "some Aces" and shoot people with missiles from Range 10 all day

smoky bluff
#

I think the assault forces melee players to play smarter, unless they have prankrati, making the melee player play around cover a lot more. It's more dynamic rather that "I tank ts, I'm gunning for him". Well it's not perfect, high enough speed and you'll blitz just fine. Which isn't uncommon for melee builds

#

Melee players are also some of the most active objective contesters too, which is what you kinda want if you want to win

brisk flax
#

Like I feel there's a convincing argument that the CRB assault is ruder to a lot of melee units in the sense that there are a solid number of melee/close-range oriented units in lancer that are ostensibly designed to rely upon evasion as a survivability metric and reliable damage bypasses that plus however much cover you happen to have

#

"there's no point to bothering with evasion because assaults will still just chip you down anyway" is a pretty common sentiment I have seen espoused as to why evasion isn't worth engaging with

young turtle
#

I'd say its not TOO unlikely that people don't notice it as much not for a lack of it being good against melee but that the mechs that DO stick around it to do melee tend to have armor of some kind if not some health to spare

#

Compared to mechs dealing with just evasion who will try and find ways to move away

brisk flax
#

there's tough melee and then there's like atlas/mourning cloak assassin types

young turtle
#

Yeah, those tend to try and not stick around to it or in its line of fire, generally ime

smoky bluff
#

I've seen Agility builds in my rebake game pop off and I'm happy for them. That's enough for me really

#

In a CRB, it's much harder to say

bold crystal
#

what is having a nice 14 evasion to something like the corebook operator's +2 accuracy +2/+4/+6 flat bonus, is usually the sentiment I see.

smoky bluff
#

In fact, it's alot nicer, my players are so much more happier having difficulty on enemy attacks

young turtle
#

Basically I think the assault in CRB might not be seen as especially good against melee (it is) not because mechanically it isn't capable of it, its more because it tends to deal with them from afar since they wanna stick away from it if they rely on evasion

smoky bluff
#

It actually mattered a lot more than just "it doesn't matter if he has impair, it's still going to hit"

young turtle
#

But the Rebake assault encourages people going in or actively moving more, imo

#

Since its all about denying cover and by the nature of things you can't do that easily by sitting still

brisk flax
#

gotta hustle

#

the assault rebake is one I would sort of say is a mixed bag in terms of "is this better/worse against melee now"

#

no reliable, yes to accuracy against no-cover targets, but there's stuff melee units can get which provide things like soft cover fairly effectively (combines arms, smoke, etc), slow on hunker down hinders assault mobility, etc

young turtle
#

I think its about the same

brisk flax
#

so it's hard to say "this is better or worse," it's just different shades

young turtle
#

but I think the way it is designed will make it more likely to engage melee builds

#

Hard to explain how much the accuracy pulls its weight

#

its a really good carrot

#

People might even try and go for it when they don't need it

bold crystal
indigo oasis
#

(Caliban is a CQB mech yes but they ram- it’s close enough)

indigo oasis
brisk flax
indigo oasis
#

Fair

brisk flax
#

The Atlas was largely complained about for being too weak and too much of a player trap for so long that a bunch of people had to be told to shut up about it because they would immediately use any mention of it to grind that axe to the point of insufferability

finite egret
finite egret
smoky bluff
finite egret
# smoky bluff But it's not like it's a weakness that can be overcome, DSAS is notorious for ha...

Sure, you can put OpCal or Thermal Charges on things too. "DSAS plus talent investment is better than other weapon without talent investment" is something that is generally going to be true.
DSAS with Vanguard 1 is firing flat instead of at +1 Accuracy. If they're in cover then, boom, you're back to probably not hitting compared to a weapon that is firing flat. Or compared to a melee with Duelist 1 which is still firing at +1 Accuracy against a target behind hard cover.
People scream about how OP the DSAS is, but it's not like every single build in existence is taking it. If you do even a cursory search of mech hanger you have to go back over a month to find the first build with DSAS in it

#

This to me says "DSAS is OP in a white room analysis where range and cover don't matter and I hit with every attack"

#

And not like "this is an actual problem in actual play"

rose hamlet
#

I don’t know if this is on topic anymore

smoky bluff
#

Back to rebake npcs

finite egret
orchid ledge
#

moving away from the melee discourse and into assault rebake discourse, i think the fact that its difficult to pin down whether the changes are a buff or a nerf is a pretty solid design victory

#

its just different in an interesting way, which rules

orchid ledge
#

sorry, im scrolling this morning

#

it makes sense that agility gets a back pocket buff with multi attacks removed

smoky bluff
#

Its more of a mix of reasons, Reliable is a lot more rarer and muti-attacks helps too but not having +2 Accuracy on most npcs is also a great factor

orchid ledge
#

yeah fr

vale crescent
smoky bluff
#

But man do the NPCs punch hard

#

Lycan went up against a pyro with max shock claws, got exposed and an Archer decided its time to die

orchid ledge
#

funny how just a tweak or two to weapon stats turns agility from a dump stat into "Does What You Think It Does"

smoky bluff
#

Its more of the entire roster of weapons

vale crescent
smoky bluff
#

God yeah

vale crescent
#

This isn't as much as bad thing

orchid ledge
#

i wonder what the sweet spot of evasion is in the, forgive me for saying this lord almighty, rebake meta

smoky bluff
#

From testing 14 is a good number

vale crescent
#

I'm popping blood vessels unable to damage these 9hp fools and crying when they don't pump hull but like

smoky bluff
#

10 is decent even with soft cover

vale crescent
#

If they're not getting punished it's quite valid

orchid ledge
#

so im into i t

#

but not so much investment that it dominates your build lol

smoky bluff
#

I mean i spam operators in most of my sitreps but even with the accuracy those Agility guys are just so fast

#

Doesn't help that alot of the time, I'm relying on that reliable to land good hits

orchid ledge
#

any tips for the new operator? mine are folding p quickly

smoky bluff
#

Hide action

#

Don't let the operator go in without being untargetable

#

You either wait for a good moment to teleport in or you keep out of the fight

#

Its off course a different story when Artillery strikes first though

orchid ledge
smoky bluff
#

Its already hard enough to trace drive boost with all the movement options the players have

#

You got systems that allow you to walk through walls, take the extra action to become Immune to Arcing and seeking too

orchid ledge
#

sounds simple enough

smoky bluff
#

Get hit? Fade drive, now you're invisible and can hide better

orchid ledge
#

ill see if i can sneak a couple into my next combat

#

ty for the gamer tips

rose hamlet
#

I should throw together a scrim for this weekend

smoky bluff
# orchid ledge ill see if i can sneak a couple into my next combat

Btw the operator goal isn't to pop heads or be the hammer to deal the finishing blow, they are harriers in which they are more valuable as extra numbers by being alive.

The average operator turn is just waiting and hoping the players decide it's not worth engaging them, and if they do, they run away as fast as they can to make them waste their turn.

So a lot of the operator's turn is just moving, boosting, positioning good and hiding. Every now and then, they take a pot shot, make the players think "damn we should do something about that guy"

And if they do they waste a turn not playing objective

orchid ledge
#

that is a big gameplay shift from vanilla, so its no wonder im having trouble

#

old dogs, etc.

#

im so used to slinging damage at players from complete safety

smoky bluff
#

Yeah it's less "lmao, you can't catch me" and more "I'm fucking dead if they hit me, but I can at least draw their attention away from what's really important". They will die. Alot

#

Cuz thanks to reliable which is rarer now, they do consistent damage, even on misses

#

Players exposed themselves? Operator suddenly breaks hidden and now he's a problem

orchid ledge
#

an era of operator mooks

#

never thought id see the day

#

okay cool i really do appreciate these tips, ill come at them from a different angle now

smoky bluff
#

It certainly fits a theme of an operator

#

I still don't like the range because of how fast players can move to engage but it is what it is

#

Btw, here are some great moments for the operator to exploit

  • Players have exhausted their movement systems and talents
  • Players have exposed themselves
  • Players are in a weaken and low health state
  • Players are a good distance away from an objective and there is space that leads away from the objective the operator can run to
  • Players are separated and not together, the operator is in a location where they can fire without their base movement
  • Players have taken their turn taking down another npc, and the operator is in a good position to fire at them without using Base movement
  • Players already been in the spaces the operator is moving in, think of the back of the map while the escort is half-way to the objective zone or a Point in recon that the players already know is not the point they are looking for.
#

Most of these probably won't do the same effects that a sniper or bombard would do, but it does catch a player's attention very well

orchid ledge
#

it sounds like i should be playing more in the mindset of a hornet; stay on the edges, annoy them into acting dumb, etc.

#

except instead of conditions im leveraging damage

smoky bluff
#

Yeah they do play like Hornets but slightly longer range

orchid ledge
#

iiinteresting

smoky bluff
#

Operator + Hornet = a bad time

orchid ledge
#

sounds like a fun one honestly hahaha

smoky bluff
#

Put a Cataphract to drive into the player formation to draw attention and you got yourself a pretty good triad

#

Helps that both operator and hornet can jam players

#

And shred

#

Can you see an emerging theme?

#

Also good thing to note, strike and fade +1 Difficulty to hit the operator last a bit longer than it's +1 Accuracy to hit someone ( at the end of their next turn vs at the end of their turn), preferably, you should choose the +1 Difficulty on the first strike and use any action left to prevent getting focused on, like hide, or boost. Best is trace drive base movement, and if the players chase the operator, they can teleport again and choose the +1 Accuracy while still having the +1 Difficulty

#

This is because it doesn't really matter if you hit or not, Reliable is there to give you some breathing room on misses

#

If they chase, operator punish this with a more accurate shot, if they don't, they can try and gamble their luck by taking Accuracy, unless they still want to play it safe

#

But most situations, just take the Difficulty

#

The Difficulty affects all attacks. Range, melee and tech

orchid ledge
#

gotchaaaaa

#

i was def trying to score the accuracy and as a result i think i overextended without any lifeline

#

so my new gameplan is going to just

on approach: move behind cover to get in range, shoot + hide
every other turn: shoot, move behind cover for +1 difficulty, hide

finite egret
#

This is all really helpful advice Kukri, thanks

smoky bluff
#

It can change depending on the player composition but that's the game plan

smoky bluff
#

If you want to play mind games, you can boost and hide in 2 rounds

#

But yeah usually boost and hide in 1 round is enough set up

orchid ledge
#

gotcha gotcha

smoky bluff
#

I haven't even gotten over optionals but they reinforce this playstyle a lot harder

#

Only 2 exception is probably Deniable asset but overload shot is very situational and more detrimental since if you overheat you no longer can teleport

#

Full action too so cannot hide

#

Fade Generator is the asset for the most bastard version of this playstyle, most melee builds are built on multi attack, after the first blow, If you can run, fade generator and go invisible and just keep running

Singularity Grenade is just very good, honestly. You even get more teleport movement and people caught in it find it harder to hit you cuz you are invisible. It's insane but limited

Telefrag, great opener instead of the normal skirmish, move, hide, you even get 5 more teleporting movement after doing it too, Base movement+telefrag movement and you got enough space to skirmish in safety or hide again, the 1d6 damage shouldn't be a problem cuz you'll be trying to remain untargetable till the players had it with you

orchid ledge
#

this is getting me fired up

#

it really is a whole new ballgame huh

indigo oasis
smoky bluff
#

What kind of talent gives you more HP?

#

I guess drone commander in a way

indigo oasis
#

Less that and more stuff like Overshield or resistance

#

Like how Invis is a roundabout way of not needing to invest in Agility or Systems

#

For Hull it’s mostly in support systems onto allies which is good imo, but is also something that most people making builds are gonna ignore when making their own builds

#

Yeah it would be a bad idea now that I’m thinking about it

indigo oasis
young turtle
#

I honestly don't think Speed is all that trivial and can be ignored as easily as people say but then again an important part of making stuff like accelerate and pankrati interesting build decisions is that you shoudn't just include empty maps

indigo oasis
young turtle
#

Since they work on straight lines only

indigo oasis
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Eh, even the most crowded maps are gonna have several straight lines imo

young turtle
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Yes, that's not really my point haha, more that if Pankrati or Accelerate is a universal solution to a lack of speed that's kinda on the map design

finite egret
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Even in crowded maps it hasn't been issue

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In my experience anyways

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Long campaign seeing Balor player just go "nah, I'm good" 😆

young turtle
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Speed is very much an undervalued stat and I think part of it is that people aren't very willing to challenge on the lack of it

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That's my take at least

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i've seen it matter a bunch and not having Pankrati or accelerate does also free up some other stuff on your build

finite egret
young turtle
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I've talked about it before but a common piece of feedback on maps which I often disagree on is that you shouldn't make them "too big" or else the slow mechs will feel bad

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Advice that tends to be given at maps at around 25x25 or above or so

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yet people are more than happy to challenge on a "lack of engineering" with things that deal heat

indigo oasis
# orchid ledge an era of operator mooks

Yeah operator rebake definitely feels like it could be a filler unit now- in a good way. It depends on how you build and play them. If you wanna add more units to a fight but don’t wanna slog the action economy, Rebake Operators seem like good options since “filler” turns where they move, boost, then hide seem favorable and common

finite egret
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She was doing fine on a 40 x 30 map

indigo oasis
young turtle
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But i'd argue broadly people sorta see lack of speed as something you shouldn't actually challenge players on on the grounds that it feels bad for them to not have their choices validated

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My take is that the default lancer map should be 40x40

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Or hereabout

finite egret
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We'd struggle with that

indigo oasis
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Adding more difficult and dangerous terrain to maps is also prolly a good idea, considering how rare it tends to be why did I say that when Ace 2, Accelerate and Prospector are as commonly cited as Pankrati?

finite egret
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Considering the table is I think 32 wide

young turtle
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Between 35x35 to 40x40

young turtle
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Because to reward speed would be punishing those who didn't invest in it

finite egret
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The 40 is no problem, we've done even longer. But can't go much wider in the other axis

finite egret
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Maybe we just play hyper mobile teams though! 😆

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I think if everyone completely dumped speed we'd have an issue with escorts, but fortunately that's also not the case either

young turtle
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But for all of the things often brought up as ways to solve movement for low speed, i'd argue that only really skirmisher is one of those and its still somewhat conditional, the others all have a fair bit of opportunity cost and mean you are, at least early on, focusing to make sure your lack of mobility isn't a problem in some situations

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yeah that's different from Speed being a trivial to ignore stat then i'd say

finite egret
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I agree there's opportunity cost, but that's the case with any choice. Investing in Hull or Agility is also opportunity cost

finite egret
# young turtle yeah that's different from Speed being a trivial to ignore stat then i'd say

I think Speed is the easiest to ignore stat for any given individual as long as there are at least a couple non speed 3 frames that can handle escorts. If the GM isn't employing those, then even that caveat is largely removed. This has been my experience on large and small maps. Crowded ones and mostly baren ones. This might not be a universal play experience though!
And I'm not saying speed is useless. Being faster is basically always better. But it's easy to ignore Speed in a way that you can't really ignore things like e.g. HP or heat cap.

young turtle
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See my experience with speed is quite different, and I think here the crucial part of it is that some people DID either take agility or picked frames that have some movement, a which i'd argue is not really ignoring it

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you're just spreading focus on your group so that at least someone can play the objective

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Between my experience as a GM and a player, i've often found speed to be important in a lot of cases where fine-tuning is important, ironically since we talked about Pankrati, I'm currently playing a Zheng which wouldn't work nearly as well if I hadn't invested in agility early

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The free action movement is a good example of something you actually sometimes need just one space of movement to use as well as you can

indigo oasis
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4 Overshield to as many people as you can chain to as a limitless quick action is valuable at every tier tbh

young turtle
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I got speed 5, I got a threat 4 DD288, i'm basically always in range of things if I get in the thick of it

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With higher speed, I could even conceivably use grapples to abduct people even more easily

finite egret
finite egret
indigo oasis
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I think one thing that’s easy to miss when it comes to speed is the way slow exists in lancer tho- most ways to make up for a slow speed are instantly shut down by slow, but mechs with a high base speed find it rarely punishing as a contrast

young turtle
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yeah i'd disagree on that point, speed is just a good stat to have in general with a fair few things

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not just sitreps

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its important to decide where the conflict will happen

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Like on a given map

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more speed means you get to set the terms of where people will engage you

finite egret
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Again, I'm not saying speed is bad. Having more speed is better, and crucial to certain builds. But you can make builds that largely ignore it and aren't massively punished for doing so excepting two specific sitreps

young turtle
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its a lot of minor things that don't really tend to be apparent like that which make me disagree just broadly with the fact people view speed as more ignorable than other stats

finite egret
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Whereas you cannot make a build that says "I'm going to ignore HP and everything will be fine"

finite egret
finite egret
brisk flax
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re: agility, it IS obviously a positive (to me) if the rebake is allowing builds that focus more on evasion and cover to be sustainable, as that is indeed one broad element of it (making to-hit/evasion more important coming and going, including things like Impaired etc), though it does really bear noting that "number of sources of reliable damage" are still pretty consistent between the CRB and rebake. Archers remain unchanged, and two other NPCs prominently feature it

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The bigger shift is that the Sentinel has it now, a shorter ranged unit than either of the other prior holders thereof

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but ultimately I think that the tools to be like "okay I want to do guaranteed damage to this guy" still exist, it's just that you don't get them as accidentally (by reaching for the same standby NPCs in a comp)

orchid ledge
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aside from action economy, mobility is like THE most vital mechanic in most tactics games and i do think its weird that people often treat it as no big shakes in this game

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like yeah yeah pankrati, accelerate, etc. but also just being able to move where you want in short order is so strong lol

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i agree with eld that this is something that is more strongly reflected in map design

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its not something thats easy to analyze in da white room (as opposed to everything else, for which the white room is always honest and forthright and never tricks you)

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i make maps with a lot of verticality and i require my players to do a fair bit of cover-vaulting, so an extra point of speed here and there is a big deal

rose hamlet
orchid ledge
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i agree.

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thats why ive always been an AGI defender, because as weak as evasion can often be, speed is always good

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and thats half of AGI!

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the difference between speed 3 and speed 4 is crazy

rose hamlet
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Arcing and Seeking also let folks get away with murder at times, but that’s its own can of worms

trim field
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I believe another factor is that

Smaller maps are easier to make, so most people are less motivated to make them bigger than smaller ones.

rose hamlet
rose hamlet
orchid ledge
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ive played as a no AGi saladin once and i wanted to peel my face off

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how do people live like that

rose hamlet
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I do tend to think that Small map isn’t the problem, but more so “lack of density in map”