#The NPC Rebake Project and NPC Tinkering Power Zone (NO MULTIATTACKERS ALLOWED)

1 messages · Page 7 of 1

brisk flax
#

what is steel jaw doing besides occasionally just pranking the party gunslinger? was that a thing that really needed to exist? why?

blissful lion
#

Yeah, my problem with them is more that they just change the numbers than shaft a weapon type. There's nothing actually happening that's visible to the PCs other than 'number go down' if it was a trade-off or the NPC got to take a reaction in response it would be more dynamic and interesting to weigh your options.

brisk flax
#

I do think that Lightning Reflexes sort of earns its keep more because, as mentioned, heavy/superheavy users do often come with backup weapons and something that is basically "worse invisibility against those weapon types specifically" is much less onerous

#

reliable still works (your cyclones, your leviathans) and even the caliban has an integrated main shotgun

#

there IS an unevenly applied dynamic in regards to heavy/superheavy and aux weapons, and it works better in that regard

#

"this guy is more dodge-y versus your HMG" COULD be a valid avenue for "maybe shoot someone else" but odds are that the HMG user will have some other tools at their disposal as well

#

the big exception is someone using superheavy mounting to put a single superheavy weapon on a frame unsuited for it that leaves them no available backup weapons and that is, imo, a self-inflicted problem

bold crystal
#

also, 'bad invisible' is a slightly different thing to 'reduced damage' as far as feel goes.

#

'oh, I missed' is not 'oh, I guess I do minimum damage every time' or 'oh guess I do half damage'

brisk flax
#

a big issue with veteran, and this is an issue with a lot of games, is that it places a lot of burden on the GM to basically do balance stuff in realtime

#

some GM relatively new to lancer gets to the veteran template and sees Hacker and thinks to themselves "oh, this would work really well on the Witch then"

#

and then they find out that a 4 heat basic invade plus a 3/4/5 heat Tear Down which pivots into more heat is actually maybe more than they wanted

#

or "the demolisher seems slow, I'll give it acrobat" and now you've invented a fast rushdown hammer guy

#

like in theory "this lets you customize NPCs" always seems cool, but it's sort of another facet of the grunt issue

bold crystal
#

yeah - it's easy to overload a Guy with stuff that ends up being just way too much in practice even if the idea seems cool, because players have very bounded health and heat values

brisk flax
#

the optionals within an NPC's own kit are build around THAT NPC in particular, and in theory anyway that means they're much more quantifiably known

#

"I know the Demolisher does X, I can build its optionals to take that into account"

#

but veteran has to apply to 30+ NPCs at once

#

you can't design a generic Veteran Hacker trait which is balanced on both the Witch and, idk, the Berserker

#

the same way that you can't make 30 different NPC classes and expect them all to work great as grunts

#

and, notably, this is why my response to both of these things (grunts, veterans) has been to bespokeify them

bold crystal
#

(it hurts everyone! that seems like a great bit of pressure! oh.)

bold crystal
brisk flax
#

I think that "this thing (grunts, veterans, etc) feels more samey" isn't something I consider a negative so much as a positive in the sense that the GM now has to do significantly less of a particularly annoying type of encounter balancing

#

"what grunts do I use?" you have five of them, they do what they say on the tin

#

"what veteran trait should I give this guy" you have six choices

#

I think at a certain level, the "customization" a GM gets to play with isn't "tinkering with one NPC," it's "building the OPFOR"

#

(and making the map etc, but that's a bit outside this project's remit)

plucky patrol
surreal zenith
#

cross-classing isn't even gone

brisk flax
bold crystal
plucky patrol
#

that ultra very quickly lost its Devastator trait, and I really cannot blame her lol

brisk flax
#

Fundamentally, I think every TRPG project exists in a realm of "the GM can hack this if they want" which means my concern is presenting something that works better/easier/smoother for the GMs that don't care to

#

(anyway I'm curious to see if the rebake Devastator manages to go the distance)

spice aspen
#

this actually happened to me more than once when I decided I wanted to try a raleigh and then got met with multiple steel jaw enemies. extremely correct decision to just throw it into tartarus

#

it's one of those things that I cannot see any kind of fun use case for. it's just uninteractive for everyone involved

brisk flax
#

I've never wanted to use steel jaw myself, and it's even worse from the perspective of "guy who sometimes writes lancer modules designed to be picked up and played by any given group"

bold crystal
#

if I was doing a version of steel jaw it'd be playing more off of the 'aux attackers have to multiattack' thing, something including, like, 'when hit by an aux attack, may move 1 directly towards the attacker'

#

outright resisting all their damage is boring. 'if you shoot me six times I am going to arrive next to you angry about it' is great.

brisk flax
#

even then it's kind of like whooooooooooooooo cares

bold crystal
#

yeah - imo it'd have to be something that actually provokes a tactical choice.

#

I solidly do not see the point of a trait that punishes having main weapons on your build though.

brisk flax
#

yeah idk man

#

feels like a case of "well we need something for main weapons now I guess, fuck it, resistance"

bold crystal
#

I hate to say it but even Steel Jaw is more interesting, in its way, than Shock Armor.

#

like, steel jaw while it doesn't deliver on the name except in the most direct way, has that appealing 'take it on the chin' vibe to it, shock armor is just. nothing.

brisk flax
#

I have often spitballed the idea of "immunity to bonus damage" as an NPC-side thing, seesawing back and forth between "this would be very funny" and "I'm not sure if it's actually a good idea or not," but I would consider that for a Steel Jaw like replacement

neon blaze
#

I actually tested that out with a homebrew NPC of mine and in the end it seemed fine, but it was specifically for a bespoke design rather than something intended to go on anything

brisk flax
#

the reason it probably wouldn't be a good idea is that it largely doesn't matter to a broad swathe of damage focused builds that maximize things like heavy weapon based action econ breakage more than "stacking bonus damage," so it would largely be punitive towards things like non-heavy-weapon bonus damage strikers and the odd gunslinger

neon blaze
#

I've also done the opposite which was "resistance to all damage not dealing bonus damage" which, well, turned out interesting also

brisk flax
#

it feels lopsided but in a very weird way where it could be "balanced" but also kind of, like, not great

neon blaze
#

as a soft-"aggro" tool that forced players to commit higher end resources to killing a specific defender target

brisk flax
#

that feels very funny

neon blaze
#

It worked the charm tbh, the idea being "either brute force this with a heavy mount or commit your bonus damage traits and stuff to killing it, or just spend limsys for grenades and such to get around it seeing it was attack only"

#

forcing a buy-in from players in terms of engagement

#

it was a grunt-tier enemy too, so its not like a heavy or grenade wouldn't kill it, but thats a heavy or grenade spend mopping up a lesser enemy vs targeting someone more important

#

so it filled a defender niche using that

#

"immunity to bonus damage though" really is just a hard damage clamp which is kind of okay, but feels bad on specific frames - Opcal + Nukcav users don't feel it as much as the Main mount striker who relies on a trait to get their extra damage out

brisk flax
neon blaze
#

but they still get the chance to make damage stick in the end, so it just prolongs and engagement more than anything, which Resistance traits can do plenty of anyway

brisk flax
#

it's hitting one particular demographic of DPSers, and not even really the ones that are generally considered "the strongest"

neon blaze
#

its why I think I treated it less as a defensive attribute and more something that could be tied to a controlling one

#

... which does remind me that I need to re-examine some of my NPCs anyway after finishing some tests, but i'm still juggling projects here and there

brisk flax
#

you could always put your squad kits up on itch, he said cajolingly

neon blaze
#

thats one of the said projects I've been juggling actually

#

I added 2 more kits because I have problems with leaving things well alone, reworked some existing stuff (both rewording and seperate repeated text into a unique tag, and actually changing some effects I didn't enjoy) and have been throwing text and formatting at it to make it more presentable

#

then its LCP wrangling time

#

i love json

brisk flax
#

also, just as a reminder: if anyone has anything of their own which is NPC related and has a thing I can link to (an itch page, DTRPG, a personal webpage, whatever) I am happy to give it a shoutout in the master document

#

I'd like to focus more on NPC/GM-side stuff rather than, like, field guides

#

given the related subject matter and all

viral wadi
#

It's the sort of thing that I feel could be interesting to have exist in, like, an XCOM sort of thing where one person is controlling a whole squad of different people, but when you have exactly one character to control, and are being told you can't use your gimmick, that doesn't feel good.

brisk flax
#

Mmhm, yeah

#

And that's probably why doing the inverse (resistance to non-bonus damage) works better

#

it's rewarding the hoop jumping and interfering with the more straightforward stuff

viral wadi
#

Yeah. It doesn't just reward the optimal gameplan more.

brisk flax
#

though I imagine it would scale weirdly given the way bonus damage tends to be sparse at the outset and much more abundant as the game goes on

#

like you couldn't really apply that to an enemy players are likely to face at, say, LL0-1

viral wadi
#

I've lost count of the number of times that I've gone "that feels like an interesting mechanic- no wait, it just incentivizes optimal gameplay again, oops" to something.

brisk flax
#

your best options at that point are cheeky talent respecs into gunslinger 3 or nuclear cavalier 2

#

and nothing to speak of at LL0

viral wadi
#

Yeeeeah. Bonus damage and crits are things that both scale really weirdly, and so are hard to balance procing off of.

bold crystal
young turtle
#

I think the issue with a lot of crb vet traits is that they are trying to be flavor (nhp copilot), solid stuff to round up a build (limitless and whatnot) AND also options to avoid players "solving" fights to quickly (steel jaw)

#

And if you ask me the problem is less them existing at all and more that they all exist on the same template without any clarification on which is which

rose hamlet
#

Categorizing them with headings in the CRB would definitely help lol

young turtle
#

I’m actually someone who appreciates steel jaw and the other "fuck this pc’s build in particular" stuff but it only really works if used carefully

#

Like as a way to force a different player to engage with a specific npc when otherwise the same player as always would

#

But that requires knowledge of the game and of your group to do that really isn’t foreshadowed by these options

indigo oasis
# young turtle And if you ask me the problem is less them existing at all and more that they al...

To be fair, Veteran is also the most basic “have more structure” template, so allowing GMs to worry less about making what’s supposed to be a slightly tankier assault too strong by putting a filler ability on it is a desire I can see existing.

However I also understand the many, many issues with that as well. Depending on the enemy, Limitless may equate to 0 extra actions, and you could give them something like Self-Repair if all you care about is making them tankier.

#

Anyway I feel like if you wanted to keep abilities like Slippery, Insulated, Steel Jaw, and Shock Armor, among other defensive ones, it’d probably be best just to make a new template (like “Prepared” or whatever) with purely those kinds of abilities that foreshadows that they have a nasty defensive trait just by existing. As a random spitballed idea- not saying it would be a good idea but that’s how I’d do it

finite egret
smoky bluff
#

God yeah

#

I always forget i can reroll my bad rolls with a commander in my sitrep

brisk flax
# young turtle But that requires knowledge of the game and of your group to do that really isn’...

yeah fundamentally I think that a certain amount of system mastery is inevitable in an option heavy tactics game, i.e. a GM needs experience to know which NPCs to use for example and it's hard to effortlessly convey that through words alone, not even taking into account how "what the players bring" or "what sitreps you use" can dramatically alter things, BUT I think a lot of the veteran stuff exists on too narrow a ledge of requiring system mastery to not feel like shit if you use it incorrectly

#

it's in the same sort of area to me as the various Ultra "immunity to X" traits

#

yes maybe there's a specific contextual argument for giving your personal Ultra for your personal group Immunity to, idk, Shredded or forced movement or something, but it's a thing that's very easy to accidentally use in ways that make the experience shittier and comes with no good way to coach someone through it, whereas (imo) if designed well an NPC unit can at least attempt more "dialogue" to speak for itself (wow this unit sure likes to hinder peoples' movement, I bet it would work really well in fights where movement is an important factor and against characters that rely on zooming around the map, etc)

young turtle
#

Yeah

#

I think there’s an argument to be made that these could work but they need to be separated from ultra and veterans and be put in it’s own thing

fringe peak
#

is the new lcp out with the changes btw?

subtle nacelle
#

working on it

brisk flax
#

considering I dropped it at 9:30 PST last night I wouldn't expect it to be

pulsar hound
fringe peak
#

Iill see if I can drop into it later tonight. Since I'm on mobile

manic sky
#

Mission 4 Combat 1 of In Golden Flame Act 1:

Sitrep: Recon, using Finaljas's Objective Forward Design modification.

PCs (all LL3):

  • Tomyris (tanky Sunzi variant from Hardvac Blues) @ LL2 + Pesilat (Suldan!) @ LL1 (plus Rented Gear for Serpent Fang)
  • Gilgamesh @ LL 2 + Mannerheim (Hardvac Blues license) @ LL1, Heavy Gunner, Op Cal Legionnaire Battle Rifle
  • Monarch w/ Op Cal Gandiva and TLALOC
  • Raleigh w/ Uncle'd & Auto-Stab'd MC-ASG (Suldan)
  • Imp (melee Goblin variant from In Golden Flame), NucCav, Hunter, Puppet Systems for overwatch on-turn plus skirmishes.

Opfor (Horror, Industrial from Dustgrave, all others Rebaked) // Elite Horror Specter (Machine Pistol, Step, Assimilation Maw), Industrial Berserker (Harpoon Cannon, Overdrive Servos, Fusion Cutter), Horror Sentinel (Punisher Ammunition, Quadruped), Horror Witch (Petrify, Terrifying), Custom Hive (Harrier Maniple, Deathcounter), Grunt Artillery x4

This fight was paused near the start of Round 3, but there were two additional enemies waiting as reserves which I won't mention here yet.

As a special note my players are animals (affectionate) and are, while not exactly "charop" sorts, still invested in playing efficiently. They tend to take powerful options and are very coordinated with one another.

Map was 35x20, players starting in the middle of the southern (long) side. Ingress points were at every angle, with a blast 2-sized LOS block right in the center of the map (a big pillar). Size 1/2 cover scattered liberally throughout, with two size 3 and one size 4 pieces.

Round 1 started with the Specter, Berserker, Sentinel, and Hive spread over the map, very distant from one another.

The Specter Step'd to be adjacent to the Monarch and the Gilgamesh, attacked the Monarch. Hive tried to deter Gilgamesh from a CZ with Razor Swarm and inflicted the poor Tomyris with a still-ongoing 2 Burn. Berserker ate shit with Uncertainty Trap from //Serpent_Fang and could only run up next to the Tomyris. The Sentinel got into position in front of another CZ and turned on Eye of Midnight to deter Raleigh.

Round 2 had Grunt Artillery x4 join the fight. I explained what they could do fully as if scanned (I'm pretty lax with my players info-wise) and was met initially with skepticism as to whether those seemed balanced.

Specter used Assimilation Maw on the Monarch and structured it. It was then banished to infinite condition hell via the Imp. The Sentinel got a single attack on the Raleigh and then the Raleigh ended its entire health bar with a single Skirmish + Uncle. The Hive was not very effective this round due to bad rolls, but moved its Razor Swarm to another CZ after the one it was guarding turned out not to be the True CZ. The Berserker was still eating shit from Uncertainty Trap, so it grappled the Tomyris and rammed it to put it in a bad spot. The Artilleries did good damage.

Round 3 saw the Witch join the fight, though it hasn't acted yet.

The Specter died before it could do anything else. The players are now down to the last CZ (bad rolls on the 1d4 to find the true CZ). Berserker rushed the Imp and Monarch and mulched the Imp a little. The Hive Drone Barrage'd the Gilgamesh into a corner. The Witch and the Artilleries have yet to act. We had to cut short.

#

Artillery Grunts -- Many things in the game simply ignore LoS and Cover. These grunts make it matter again and in an interesting way. The initial impression was "what? they can Lock-On before using their ordnance weapon??" and scoffed at it, but they still can't move before they use the weapon. So pretty quickly we figured out that even if the grunts can hit you without LoS, if they don't have that LoS, they can't Lock-On, and without that Lock-On they become significantly less of a problem. I actually quite liked them. I think my players enjoyed the idea, too, once they figured out the way to handle them.

Specter -- My players have no means to counteract Invisible, which is their fault, but they also were completely (very hard stress: completely) unwilling to bother with the Full Action to take its Invisibility away. The action cost was too much for them, particularly when they could fail and be punished for it. I stress the "completely" because it felt like it wasn't attractive in the slightest, and that risking the 50/50 was a better option. This was compacted somewhat however with the Specter being an Elite and therefore the invis drop wouldn't last long, but even so, I don't think that was the only reason they found it unappealing, just made that more pronounced.

As an aside, I lament the "double efficacy of armor" on Monowire Sword but I only say this because all 5 PCs have at least 1 armor; it's a Me Problem.

Hive -- I've run a lot of Hives before and the thing I always did with them, despite being 20 HP, was find a big piece of terrain to LoS block them and just kind of dip in and out to drop Razor Swarms every round. Dropping the Hive to one Razor Swarm made it feel like it could--should--go out and do more to contribute to the fight. Because every round it won't be setting out a new zone, probably, suddenly Drone Barrage and even its Nexus feel useful and good. It made me want to actually be more aggressive with the Hive. I was briefly annoyed with Sensors 10 but I think that also nudged my brain into revising my view of Hives as needing to be more aggressive.

Berserker -- I love the Berserker. Even Jammed for two rounds the players never felt safe about it and it's still in their faces doing shit. No notes.

Sentinel -- I love the Sentinel's revised Eye of Midnight. I've played with newbie GMs who have used the core version thinking it does what the Rebake version does and my heart is filled with sadness when I have to tell them, no ma'am. The Sentinel kind of ate shit in a single round but it's a Raleigh with a Mc-Ass shotgun so I'm unsure how it reasonably could've survived.

#

@brisk flax

#

I write too much.

languid juniper
#

Rebake Hive is a very very VERY nasty facehugger of an NPC with the right Optionals

manic sky
#

It felt like a "mid-range controller" and that was kind of cool honestly.

languid juniper
#

An Elite Hive in the finale of OSR managed to hold down three players at once for most of three rounds

#

Although that was more on their really terrible rolls keeping them from just dropping it

indigo oasis
manic sky
# indigo oasis Out of curiosity what is the the Objective Forward Design Modification?

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YzfBwjXsQOMuL34L9a74SQZP5Sx_cOsnOpgyVH76_f4/edit?tab=t.0

Google Docs
FINALJAS90’s Sitreps

FINALJAS90’s Sitreps and Objective Forward Design Foreword Sitreps in Lancer are wonderful. They push combat forward and provide a tactical context for mech combat that does not end on “just fight all these dudes”. Unfortunately, due to the design of some sitreps, they can sometimes end up with ...

brisk flax
#

in that regard

#

you can take electro-nanite cloud and seeker cloud and basically turn the hive into a slant DPS

#

people have often ruminated "what's the best NPC to use to make a Manticore with" and a lot of people go for Operators (self destruct) and maybe Berserker or Scourer, but I think the Hive is actually the one

#

re: the monowire sword and double armor, 1 point of armor actually illustrates an interesting bit of math, because against 1 armor the sword is effectively reduced by 2, which means post-doubling it deals 8/10/12 damage (down from 10/12/14) which still puts it on the higher end of melee strikers (the Ronin, for example, deals baseline 6/8/10 with a bonus damage potential against certain targets)

#

against 0-1 armor targets, the specter still punches pretty hard

#

once you get into 2+ armor is where it starts to fall off more

plucky robin
#

Happy Drake Sounds

fringe peak
#

a thought as someone whose recently used an operator. how do people feel about singularity grenade becoming recharge 6?

#

btw did a quick once over the lcp and all the changes and it seems good!

#

no breakages or strange alterations

indigo oasis
#

Can’t really put it on Ultras but that’s not that big a deal imo

brisk flax
#

Singularity Grenade is basically an NPC-style Warp Grenade with additional functionality, for a single quick action it's incredibly juiced

#

I know some people were skeptical of me turning the Breacher's Thermal Charge into a recharge ability and giving it some extra stuff (save vs shredded, movement), but I think the disruptive elements of that system are still overall lower than the Singularity Grenade

#

also the thing is, I don't want the rebake specter to have too many easy outs

#

hot recharge dice on singularity grenade would turn into that, I think

daring surge
#

Had a fight with a Veteran Assassin rebake today. Our whole group all had flight systems, so we were acting all smug until the Shroud Projector came out

#

Would it be right to say the shroud goes away immediately upon the Assassin's death?

fringe peak
#

I did notice a slight vtt issue with owlbeae with fire break shield showing up as an unknown system? Idk why it's like that tbh

pulsar hound
#

Easiest fix is to remake the NPC or re-add Firebreak manually (if that's possible on Owlbear - I'm a foundry boy, alas)

rose hamlet
#

It would be through Witchdice on Owlbear but yeah

brisk flax
# daring surge Would it be right to say the shroud goes away immediately upon the Assassin's de...

How it tends to break down is the following:
1). If something lasts until the end of the NPC's next turn, say, and that NPC dies, the effect ends (because there's no way for a dead character to have a next turn)
2). If something lasts an indeterminate amount of time (mines, a Priest's Dispersal Shield which gives resistance to the next X attacks, etc) then that sticks around even after the NPC dies
3). Stuff like "this NPC hits you with a debuff that lasts until the end of your next turn" continues to last until it expires as normal (because its expiration isn't tied to the NPC, but to the target)

#

Things that are more permanent that are intended to go away with the NPC's death will generally say so, like Engineer Turrets or Hive Razor Swarms

oak acorn
#

Ok yeah I was about to ask regarding a round of questions/feedback after two scenes of playtesting, about the controller grunts' "rest of the scene" shrouds and if they last beyond death, given they'd reference the save target of a dead character, but I guess that answers it

brisk flax
#

Yeah, referencing a save target doesn't factor into the equation, mines do that too and those don't go away when a seeder is taken off the board

#

Or PC mechs for that matter

#

If your Iskander bites it, their deployed mines stick around

oak acorn
#

ence's NPC Rebake playtest

LL6, Four/three players

  • CQB Gilgamesh w/ Krak
  • Railgun Death's Head w/ EoH, Smartgun
  • Reactions Georg Gorgon w/ Concs/AssCan
  • Melee Kutuzov w/ Jager I, Terashima

Scene 1

Recon, vs Vet Specters (Silent Stalker), Hornets (System Spike), Commander Sniper (Quick March, Defensive Grapple), Sentinel (Punisher Ammo), Ultra Hornet (Hex Missiles, Legion, Sidereal Realignment)
Sniper was destroyed before doing much but apply Sniper's Mark, even through Sentinel Guardian. Lower left CZ was determined to be correct, and Sentinel overwatch was never triggered.
Specters were found to be considerably less threatening compared to before, but I found them still fine compared to other strikers (esp given that's after doubling their damage).
The Hornets' System Spike never got to go off.
Defender grunts were helpful; their opportunities to actually Defend were limited, perhaps thanks to the opfor's high mobility. This was before their sacrifice reaction. Also, the overshield gave them a good amount of staying power without making them seem less grunt-y.
Ultra Hornet was pulled in when initial forces and reinforces proved insufficient. Hellfire Projector and Hex Missiles wreaked havoc in the players, causing considerable damage among PCs. It was brought in late enough to not be easily destroyed in time for the end of the sitrep, so the match was conceded in their favor.

#

Scene 2

Gorgon was absent for this scene.
Gauntlet (using Finaljas' variant: while no NPCs are in the zone at the end of a round, players get one point for every two PCs in it; they win if they then have 4+ points)
vs Pyros, Marine Assaults (Portable Barricade), Ship Bombard (Bunker Buster), Commander Seeder (Press On!, Last Line), Grunt Supports and Grunt Controllers.
Pyros were destroyed with great prejudice, and firebreak shield was never used.
My intent with Bunker Buster was to clear cover for the Assaults, but the players were always spread out until they were in the zone, and I didn't want to spend a turn reloading. Otherwise, normal bombard business.
A couple points about the seeder. Its mines working like PC mines in terms of visibility and trigger distance is great. They actually get triggered with some frequency, and I could set up tricks and forced movement to get people into them. On that note, do Seeder mines arm immediately, or at end of turn? I ran it as the former, and though I don't think I ever pulled it off, push 1 and immobilize seems like a powerful control combo. Last Line, the optional I used for it, was noted as a potential feelsbad moment, with working like corebook Seeder mines, sort of. Jumpscaring an unsuspecting PC with a mine that very likely shuts down their turn could be unfortunate.

#

A player mentioned NPCs feeling weak, and I'm kind of inclined to agree. I did more stress than structure, and then mostly because of opportunistic invades after the players heated themselves up to near cap. I dealt no structure damage in the final scene.
I get the impression that's not too different from base Lancer, but the NPCs died pretty quickly too. I wonder how much of that could be attributed to my players' optimization skills, though.
Lastly, the controller and support grunts felt really fun to use. Though still easy to deal with, having four of them never feels overwhelming either. Their abilities are unique and interesting, but not uncharacteristically oppressive.

brittle cipher
#

I think Last Line being a jumpscare is fine - its a single use emergency defense that players can circumvent by either not walking directly into John Landmines or by scanning

brisk flax
#

if this was regarding NPCs which had things like resistance shuffled into HP or similar I might be more inclined to consider things like fragility a concern, but none of these guys got toughness downgrades

oak acorn
#

Guess that's a lack of familiarity with the NPCs on my part then

brisk flax
#

As far as structure damage goes, I suspect the biggest issue to look at within tiers 2 and 3 is the inability for, say, the Specter to deal a surprise 20+ damage to someone in a single round

#

I am now at work and away from my desk, I'll look back with some unpacked thoughts later

fringe peak
#

My problem is I always forget last line exists

#

We did have a fun moment where a smart player scanned to discover last line and then disarmed it

pulsar hound
#

Hey folks, pleased to say we have another release up and ready for you to test.

Please submit issues here if you can - we're not always around to comb this chat!

GitHub
Release 1.17.2 Master Document 1.2 Parity (Bugfix) · Shteb/Kais-NPC...

What's Changed

Updated all tech attacks to specify 'a character' rather than 'a target'
Added Ace Lock On clause
Added 1/round to Blinding Shells text (tag remains)
Bombard She...

indigo oasis
#

You mean Nova Missiles?

oak acorn
#

I made a corebook Hornet by accident

#

At least I used the rebake template, but

indigo oasis
#

Oops lol

brisk flax
#

Re: NPCs dying more easily, NPC toughness isn't really something that the rebake touches on overmuch except in a few specific areas. There are a number of minor incidental changes here and there which could be said to account for this or that NPC being more fragile...for example, the Assassin no longer gains 1 point of armor at T2/T3, and various NPCs with weird jumps in evasion or e-defense at higher tiers have had those progressions smoothed out, but by and large there hasn't been a concerted effort to make NPCs physically frailer, HP values largely remain the same, defense values, saves, etc.

#

There are three major exceptions to this I can think off offhand, which are the Barricade, the Demolisher, and the Goliath. In all three cases, some sort of resistance trait was removed from them. The Barricade lost kinetic resistance, the Demolisher lost Dig In, and the Goliath lost Siege Armor

#

Both the Barricade and Demolisher received HP bumps to account for this, the Goliath did not as I'm not yet convinced it merits one (I think giving it +5 HP baseline might be a bit too much beef to chew through, especially when multiple structure starts coming into play)

#

In these OPFOR loadouts, I don't see any of those specific NPCs

#

All of which is to say that while I'm willing to keep an open mind, I don't see anything there that immediately makes me go "oh yeah I can see why these NPCs would die easier because of changes I made"

#

in terms of, like, raw tanking ability

#

re: NPCs not dealing as much structure damage, this is something the rebake COULD theoretically be responsible for in the sense that the rebake does two broad structural changes across the NPC catalogue:
1). a lot of extraneous accuracy has been pared down, i.e. the Sniper no longer has +2 baseline Accuracy but +1.
2). tier-scaling multiattacks no longer exist

#

In regards to point 1). a lot of NPCs have had more lock on synergies and abilities spread throughout their kits to encourage cooperation, and the idea is that through these various methods you can give NPCs more accuracy if need be, but it does mean that at a baseline things like evasion, impaired, and cover will (ideally) be more impactful factors, that is if you slap someone with impaired they can't simply go "I don't care, my gun shoots at baseline +2 accuracy anyway"

#

a 1.5). addendum is that reliable damage has been shuffled around and is no longer found on the Assault or Rainmaker, common OPFOR picks

#

looking at the OPFORs here, the NPCs I see that might be affected the most by point 1). are the Sniper (lost +1 base accuracy) and the Assaults (lost Reliable, slightly lower to-hit against targets in cover) but otherwise I think things should still mostly be in line with CRB expectations (that is, I didn't adjust the to-hit of the sentinel or the pyro etc)

#

In regards to point 2). the biggest swing I see in this OPFOR is the Specters

#

At Tier 2, a Specter that gets an isolated target they can proc hunt off of can, with two quick actions, do two monowire sword swings for 10 damage each and then follow up with a ram (if they're close enough) for an additional 5 damage

#

so potentially 25 damage in a single "barrage" equivalent

#

compared to the rebake specter which at Tier 2 can make one monowire sword swing for 12 damage

#

against which armor is doubled

#

That is a big difference!

#

That is a VERY big difference!

#

However, I also think the current implementation of the Tier 2 Specter is maladjusted, to use my diplomatic words

#

the CRB version, that is

#

I do not think that an NPC at Tier 2 should suddenly double their base damage potential from 10 to 20, nor do I think Hunt needs to buff ram/grapple/etc

#

So the rebake specter is UNQUESTIONABLY "weaker" than the CRB version, as is the Ronin and the Operator

#

This is because tier-scaling multiattackers suddenly scale in ways that a lot of people over the years have noted as turning higher tiers of lancer into rocket tag

#

Now to be blunt, I do not want to incorporate that sort of scaling

#

I am also aware that I am 7+ years downstream of people running lancer using NPCs that sometimes do multiple attacks all over the place

#

I am skeptical that higher tier lancer is actually balanced around the existence of tier-scaling multiattackers serving as some sort of necessary predator in the ecosystem, though

#

like, I don't think that multiattacking specters and operators are the only thing keeping the PCs honest because while PCs can continue to slather on the HP up to a point, player side HP/armor gains are not paced according to 7-10 point jumps in NPC damage

#

outside of the specter, none of the other NPCs in the listed OPFOR loadouts have had their damage messed with, i.e. the sniper, the assault, the bombard, the pyro, etc

#

are all dealing their usual amounts of damage

#

so there is a third element to this which isn't really a unified structural element, but there ARE a number of changes here and there which could, in this or that combo, account for NPCs feeling "weaker"

#

For instance, the Assault's Hunker Down now applies a self-slow. Could that account for Assault dealing less damage? Sure, if the inability to boost prevents them from hitting a target they otherwise might have been able to

#

The Bombard is now a Size 2 unit. Could that make it weaker? Sure, in the sense that it's now less able to hide behind LoS obscuring terrain and fire unimpeded (though as the GM you are capable of making the rocks on the map bigger)

#

etc

fringe peak
#

In going to be trying out the new NPCs wifh my spec ops squad op fors. So we'll see how this goes

brisk flax
#

Broadly and fundamentally, I expect that the rebake NPCs probably have less of a "high ceiling" in terms of the amount of consistent hurt they can deal, though I don't think the elements that were shaved down have been applied universally, that is to say MOST NPCs have not had major damage or accuracy changes, but on the whole I can potentially see how an accumulation of changes may, in concert, lead to NPCs being less randomly murderous

indigo oasis
#

It is also worth noting that Specter’s damage now scales more in line with the other damage doubling striker NPC, the Assassin, whose weapon has lower to hit, baseline accuracy, lower base damage, and more importantly somewhat stricter damage doubling prereqs.

One thing I respect for this rebake is making it so that enemies of the same role tend to be more on par with each other rather than “this Striker is far deadlier than this other striker”, and with the Specter changes it’s not really operating leagues outside its colleagues

brisk flax
#

THAT SAID, looking over the OPFORs in question, I can't really point to a particular element that would make me go "ah, this is why they didn't do structure damage" or "this is why they died so quickly"

brisk flax
#

Anyway, I appreciate the feedback, but for the moment I can't see anything that would account for a dramatically weaker performance on either the offensive output side (beyond the specter) or the resilience side

#

This may simply be a case of "the PCs kicked ass," that happens

#

For example, I have had a number of playtest reports where someone brought a sniper and their feedback was "the sniper didn't get to do much before it died," but the rebake sniper has the same HP and evasion and e-defense as the CRB version

#

Is that happening because something the rebake did has made the sniper much more vulnerable? Or are players simply expressing positive target prioritization?

#

The Sniper's range DID get cut by 5, from 25 down to 20, it's POSSIBLE that this range decrease has made it "more vulnerable"

#

It also lost Shroud Charge out of its optionals and maybe people have been leaning hard on that as a defensive tool

#

to the latter, my take is that if you want the equivalent of a Shroud Charge what you want is "an allied mirage to share Dataveil, or a Scout buddy to use Cloaking Field" etc

#

i.e. this is part of that whole inter-NPC cooperation thing

#

the range decrease COULD be a roundabout vulnerability, but it's unclear so far because if the PCs focus-fire a CRB sniper then there's nothing in particular there different from the rebake in a way that would prevent it from eating the exact same amount of shit

#

On the whole, so far I haven't had a lot of feedback reports that indicate the NPCs are performing consistently "weaker"

#

It's actually something I've been mindful/concerned about given that I know I'm shaving down a lot of bits of accuracy here and there, multi-attacks are gone, the last thing I want is to suddenly find out that at Tiers 2 and 3 the PCs are simply no-selling everything and stomping every fight

heavy pebble
#

Ran a fairly weird scenario with only veterans, deliberately mediocre enemy synergy, and a fixed enemy turn order. 5 players at LL8, who performed very well.

  • Specter was successful at scaring players to group up into a death ball. Was Slowed most of the time and couldn't reach the back line.
  • Sniper was not able to use Sniper's Mark against players out in the open due to House Guard+Mule Harness. Should soft cover stop it?
  • Sniper Veteran didn't have much it could do with Overcharge besides Lock-On/Invade.
  • Hive did not get any critical hits with Abrade. Party was too fast and map was too open to use Razor Swarm very well. Which is fine, that's my doing. Was annoying but mostly ignored.
  • Witch was hunted down immediately, but still survived a while due to managing Blur. Was terrifying to the nuclear cavaliers.
  • Bastion was far easier to manage using Stack Up, which felt great. Ended up using overcharge-looping to reload the grenade launcher.
    Overall, we liked how it felt players were pushed harder to adapt their tactics against each enemy. Sitrep was too weird for more detailed feedback to be helpful.
brisk flax
#

this is one of those "broad consensus" things but treat it like Hiding

#

could you use the cover you are benefiting from to Hide normally (ignore weirdos like the Atlas)? if so, then it interferes with Sniper's Mark

#

if not, you can't

#

likewise, "being in cover" doesn't require the person BENEFIT from the cover, if that makes sense

#

i.e. if you somehow gave the sniper's rifle Seeking, someone who was behind a rock would still be "in cover" for the purpose of Sniper's Mark interaction

indigo oasis
#

That’s not how I’d read it personally?

brisk flax
#

okay well this is how lots of people do it, and in particular this is how it works with the Death's Head's core power which has similar "in cover" wording and is why you can't slap nanocomp on your death's head's weapon and ignore all the targeting requirements

plucky patrol
brisk flax
#

this is one of those things where I'm not going to go at someone if they "do it wrong" because your next statement is "yeah but it's ambiguous" and I agree it is, nonetheless if I am personally asked "how does this work" then that's the answer I'm gonna give

indigo oasis
brisk flax
#

running it the other way (any source of cover works) is going to make Sniper's Mark noticeably weaker because there is a lot of incidental soft cover gains you can get on the PC side, MULE harness among them

brisk flax
#

you can't Hide in a MULE Harness

#

even if arguably that is turning the Lancaster into a "zone of cover" if you squint etc

#

fundamentally the distinction exists because, as noted, if it didn't then Marked For Death would be extremely stupidly easy to get rid of every necessary targeting requirement with a Nanocomposite Mod tax

ebon trenchBOT
#

There comes a point where you are just chasing rules loopholes if you rule 'in cover' as anything but 'behind a rock or in smoke'

indigo oasis
#

Yeah there is a difference between being “in cover” and “benefitting from cover”, but I thought the distinction when it comes to affects that reference them was worded like that- seems I was mistaken

brisk flax
#

this is, again, ambiguous

#

I'm not sure if there is a "I have a screencap from tom in 2019 who said so"

#

HOWEVER if I am asked to give my intended take on the matter in terms of "how does this work," that's going to be my answer both for the Sniper and the Death's Head

#

the alternative (any cover, including talents etc works) makes things wonkier coming and going, imo

#

it makes marked for death easy to no-brainer cheese, it makes sniper's mark significantly easier to ignore

indigo oasis
#

Oh wait- now that I’m re-reading the original wording, it seems my interpretation was correct, I was just misrecalling the Sniper’s Mark text lmao

#

Brain autocorrected lol- it’s definitely one of those weird things that’s easy to forget

ebon trenchBOT
#

Happens to the best

brisk flax
brisk flax
#

on the subject of specters: it's come up fairly consistently across various tests that nobody is interested in the built-in disabling check with the Tactical Cloak. When I get consistent feedback that's usually when I know something is actually standing out, so I'm probably going to be changing it in the next draft, what I currently have cooked up is this:

Trait
The Specter is permanently Invisible. As a quick action 1/round, a character can engage in a contested Systems check with the Specter to attempt to disable their cloak; all characters are aware of this. The Specter must be within their Sensors for them to attempt this check, and it may be attempted even if the Specter is Hidden. If they succeed, this trait is disabled until the end of their next turn. If they fail, the Specter may teleport their Speed.```
surreal zenith
#

thank u eld

indigo oasis
indigo oasis
heavy pebble
#

Might be more enticing if it lasted for the rest of the round instead of until the specter's next turn (which it will probably take immediately).

brisk flax
#

so I'm experimenting with something that gives the specter potentially a bit of mobility

brisk flax
#

"let me use a quick action and maybe someone can bolster me and in exchange I will turn the specter into a 10 HP melee unit with no other defenses"

#

this will last the whole round

indigo oasis
#

Reducing it to a quick action means you can immediately act on the removal of Invisibility rather than requiring someone else follow up

brisk flax
#

like frankly I would rather simply go back to "tactical cloak has no breakage, bring a fuckin lotus projector or roll better"

indigo oasis
#

That- and it bypasses needing to Search if the specter is Hidden (I think), so it’s objectively better than Searching

brisk flax
#

also, if you want the effect to last longer, simply wait until the specter has acted and then have someone try to break it

heavy pebble
#

Oh I missed the "can do it if hidden" part, that's much better.

brisk flax
#

yeah

#

this is EFFECTIVELY a pseudo "alternate search"

indigo oasis
#

The disability of Invis baked in is meant to be a “break in case of emergency” feature, not a “press this button to win” feature

brisk flax
#

odds are the specter will lose hiding if it also loses invisibility

indigo oasis
brisk flax
#

it's also better in the sense that search is contested systems vs. agility and the specter's agility is WAY better than its systems

#

it still has a positive systems score, but it's the difference between +1 and +3 at tier 1

#

anyway yeah, the bigger deal is the action compression, it's now a quick action rather than a full

#

you no longer get a big chunk of heat applied to the specter if you win, but that's because it's not a full action anymore

indigo oasis
#

Yeah the difference between a quick and fully action is Bulky and that’s by design

opal folio
brisk flax
#

yes

#

any character can attempt it but only 1/round for each of them, no "I'll overcharge to try again"

plucky patrol
manic sky
#

Does the Specter's revised cloak need LoS? And also, the use of "they" twice in the "disabled until the end of their next turn" sentence suggests it's the person who makes this action's end next, not the Specter's end next. Or at least, introduces ambiguity enough.

neon blaze
#

not that an NPC failing can't be a good source of data though - I was very pleased with my Bloodhound testing not just because it managed to put in good work, but because the players realized and then sent someone to fight it that was punished far less - but sometimes NPCs don't even get the chance to fail depending on how the encounter maps out, and what gets judged as a priority or not. it took me like 3 tries to actually see the Martialist in action because the first two times the players just mopped up the opposite side of the map and fulfilled objectives

oak acorn
rose hamlet
#

The ambiguous “their” is a good point imo, good to catch that early (though tbf I don’t think we should expect perfect editing when throwing drafts on discord)

brisk flax
#

basically, if it deliberately targets a thing, LoS should be assumed as a requirement

wheat mortar
#

Used a Veteran Ultra Operator with the Tele-frag, SCL, Volley Module, and Spec-Ops optionals

The interactiveness was clear compared to non-baked with regard to the SCL, I also really loved using Volley Module and then Tele-frag to position to hit as many as possible with the Raptor Plasma Rifle as a great way to be a larger threat while the SCL ticked down.

The downsides of Juggernaut and Self-repair are a great addition but I accidentally realized that having the Spec-Ops allowed me to kinda cheese the 1st choice of Juggernaut downside. That being said the fact that I was able to recover getting the weapon mount destroyed the first structure loss was really appretiated and the fact that the Operator was jammed and took heat made it feel a bit more fair. It was also fun seeing the players realize they could abuse the increased heat generation from the elite veteran operator overcharging + using auto-repair to force more stress checks which ended up helping alot as they got a couple powerful exposed + high damage skirmishes

#

Unsure if the Volley Modules -> Overcharge for Tele-frag was intended as the Volley module says "adopts a stable stance" but its a protocol on next turn

#

I also happened to roll amazing for the operator's recharge and got to tele-frag like 4 times in the 6 round combat

#

Used SCL twice and Volley module 3x

#

Mostly because the players have developed a strong hatred of rebaked Hive and it's ability to burn + force movement as well as scourers that can sit and focus down a lancer burned by a hive.

I do regret choosing near-threat denial on the bastion instead of deathcounter but the players were smart and shredded it, seeker's lock-on and cyclone pulse rifle which critted

brisk flax
#

Can you overcharge to do things like telefrag on the same turn you use the Volley Module full action? Yes, nothing about Volley Module prevents you from doing anything else after you spend the full action. You could Volley Module, then standard move for example

#

volley module + overcharge is a perfectly valid turn

wheat mortar
#

I wasn't sure if you could move between the full action for volley module and the protocol activation the following turn

#

i felt like i was ok but the wording of "adopts a stable stance" made me rethink it when i was reviewing my adjucation of the combat afterwards

#

the players had a great time, a player shouting to the others on his turn "get down before it volleys" and me having Kiros quip "Kneel before Vesten superiority" was alot of fun

brisk flax
#

How did the revised SCL feel in practice. It went off twice, you said?

wheat mortar
#

yea, it was great felt the apocalypse rail style count down was such that the players started splitting up when the number got closer to 1, i never rolled above a 4 on that but the number reducing on stress/structure helped make up for that

#

maybe i rolled a 5 once on it as it went off first turn of round 3 and 2nd turn of round 5

#

the minotaur did use his Maze when the ultra was at 2 on the SCL dice specifically to delay it for players to move which was really cool

#

compared to its old version where I get a recharge and can just blast em

#

the fight was right off a full repair and 3 CPs were used (Maze, Powerup, Apocalypse rail) the fight did 5 structure of damage (would've been 6 but the player got a 6 on the custom paint job, and 1 stress from the amount of overcharges used.

Opfor was Veteran Ultra Operator, Elite Hive, Commander Bastion, Scourer against 4 players

indigo oasis
wheat mortar
#

wouldn't objects that block LoS also block sonar pulses?

indigo oasis
wheat mortar
#

lol i mean i took sensors to be a full suite IR, Radio, Sonar, etc.

#

i actually had a similar discussion with my playgroup about sensors and LoS

#

we also initially tried using how you described but i was feeling that spending movement to explore map's verticality was harmed by that change

#

that keeping RAW line of sight rules makes the movement investment to take the high ground worth it

young turtle
#

I mean Hide doesn't break LOS

brisk flax
#

yeah that's the thing

#

hiding =/= breaking LoS

young turtle
#

Hide means you cannot be directly targeted by stuff

#

also I mean even if it did

#

Would you really think the action specificaly made to look for hidden characters doesn't work on them?

brisk flax
#

you can be hiding in smoke clouds, you can hide because you're invisible, which is KIND of a big component of the specter specifically

spice aspen
#

so maybe a weird place to ask this, but uh- I am planning on starting a new campaign soon with some new players involved. would it be helpful to have insights from people who haven't played the system before, or should it be avoided? I do plan on explaining the situation in full to them and giving them a choice of it, obviously, but

brisk flax
#

or is this related to the rebake project in some way

#

sorry maybe I'm not understanding the question correctly

ebon trenchBOT
#

I think she means the players are new to lancer but using the rebakes so the feedback may not come with the context of knowing the crb npcs

brisk flax
#

ohhhhh

spice aspen
#

yeah that!

brisk flax
#

Gotcha okay, I was reading it VERY poorly, my bad

spice aspen
#

jkdsgjkdsg nah it's okay

#

I probably should have made it more clear bleh

brisk flax
#

That's an interesting question certainly

ebon trenchBOT
#

At least on the gm side cere will know the crb npcs but her players wont

brisk flax
#

They won't have any point of comparison, BUT I think that even new players should be able to give their impressions and a "fresh perspective" could have interesting insights, though I think the thing is that without the inherent prompting of "these NPCs are remixes of classic ones" they might not be primed to GIVE those insights, if that makes sense

#

like someone who is already familiar with the CRB assault who faces the rebake version will probably be inclined to go "oh this is different" and take some mental notes on it

#

I think if you want to gather feedback from brand new players that you might need to inform them of such, if that makes sense

#

of course you'll also have your own insights to give as the GM, i.e. "the players struggled to figure out how to handle X NPC"

spice aspen
#

for sure, yeah

keen topaz
#

I'm on mobile and tracking down the specific message might be a pain but I do appreciate the effort to minimize the whole "rocket tag" gameplay as someone who wants to run a campaign up to LL12 and was always hesitant to start bringing in Tier 2s due to the inconsistent jumps in lethality. No notes, just a thank you for addressing that problem

fringe peak
#

MIssion: Infiltration
Players: nelson, Sherman, Enkidu, Gunslinger Dusk wing, Melee tokugawa (tier 1)

ultra scout
veteran hornet
veteran Rainmaker
Demolisher
Assasin
Ace
Seeder
Engineer

The scout with volley module was very funny cause it was able to apply scouts makr to every enemy on the map if players were not careful Ade would then follow up with a strafing run. The hornet was infuraiation for players in a fun way cause it would use super sonic and umbral interdiction to traverse the battlefield.

Demolisher would often use jet propulsion to do some funny stuff but it led to a couple stresses from nuc cav hits. Engineer felt pretty fun as well but it got deployed in the op for and din't really get a chance to shine. Feedback from players was positive

opal folio
spice aspen
#

I think I'll probably explain the differences between the two and see what the players wanna do

brisk flax
#

"So would you rather fight the Operator with 20 range and innate +2 accuracy or"

ebon trenchBOT
#

Yeah i agree ive always thought that higher tiers of lancer would just turn into rocket tag and not be particularly fun

Radio_Radium (any) ↩️

[Reply to:](#1334655875679260692 message) I'm on mobile and tracking down the specific message might be a pain but I do appreciate the effort …

fringe peak
#

this might be a hot take but I do kinda feel like current demolisher is too mobile? the 6 space burst movement is often enough I don't have to pair it up with an ally like mirage or scout to get around that anymore

#

i'd rather do that than acrobat tbf, i hate acrobat, especaially since you can swing against the air in order to get more than a boost would get you.

the heat gain is pretty signifcant though so you often can't use it more than once...but I haven't really gotten a chance to use the burst movement more than once? once it gets in it doesn't really often ned to go further? But i've also been stressed cause of it? So like it could just be a me thing

spice aspen
bold crystal
brisk flax
#

Re: Jet Propulsion, it DOES work to make the Demolisher more independent which is something that seems like it stands a bit at odds with the rebake's overall focus on encouraging more cooperation and synergy, but I think the thing is that the specific sort of synergy the demolisher wants (allied mobility) is pretty thin on the ground, which is why you basically see the Mirage/Acrobat combo come up so often (because honestly, what else is there to use?)

#

the rebake does try to sprinkle more of this around, the Scout gets Pathfinder, you can use Coercive Force to drag people, etc, but it's still primarily the case that the main allied movement facilitator guy is the Mirage

#

the Pyro, another member of the Speed 2 club, has Explosive Jet as a way they can give themselves some additional mobility, and I want to do something similar for the Demolisher simply so it isn't as inherently joined at the hip with some other NPC

#

with the cost, of course, being that it's a good way to get overheated

fringe peak
#

That's very fair. I didn't know if 3 instead of 4 would be better mainly just cause of how crushing the hammer is?

It's probably fine though

fading flume
#

after reading through the document (and some of this channel) i'm: 1. really loving all of this and probably going to use this at some point 2. really considering throwing these guys at my players going through shadow of the wolf, putting them in at ||the exam|| seems fine enough?

raw prairie
#

very hawk tuah

#

is there an LCP or is it just locked to lcp files rn

blissful lion
#

Ran a holdout as a sort of one shot, 3 PCs LL1 with bastion, assault, support, hive
Reinforcements scout, scourer, pyro, ronin

The PCs kinda got bodied hard, but that's because they come from a simpler 5e game and had a few misplays (running right at the clump of 4 enemies and stabilise + overcharge looping) + some unlucky hits/misses and a lot of overcharging stressed themselves. It felt pretty similar to base NPCs and my only real feedback is corroborating that the assault really did feel stronger closer up since they could counteract engagement difficulty way easier and barrage with little to no downside. Plus I got confused because the statblock for goliath is named bastion, but that's neither here nor there.

subtle nacelle
raw prairie
#

chat. i meant to say if there was an lcp or if its just locked to a pdf rn.

#

im stupuid?

subtle nacelle
#

there's a github page in the pins that i maintain along with a couple of others here where we wrote an LCP for this

fringe peak
#

players said and i quote "THE SENITNEL FUCKING DOES SOMETHING"

subtle nacelle
raw prairie
#

you are my goat.

subtle nacelle
#

we also included an optional lcp for deployables, right now only engi turret, but more coming soon

raw prairie
#

ur like. the lebron james of. lancer lcps.

raw prairie
#

i looked at lcp editor. it doesnt work.

#

for npcs aywayg.

subtle nacelle
#

how so?

brittle cipher
#

an LCP is secretly just a ZIP full of json files

subtle nacelle
#

ah, then yea. boot up your favorite json editor (i use VScode) and get cracking.

raw prairie
#

trenchcoat pilled.

#

and stuff.

subtle nacelle
raw prairie
#

you may aswell be speaking latin. or typing latin. in this scenario.

subtle nacelle
#

ah then yeah, npc may be too hard to work with. Try reading the way this rebake lcp is organized

#

everything inside the "NPC Rebake/" folder in github

raw prairie
#

thank you. Eleonor | Owlbear.Rodeo enjoyer of pilot.net.

brisk flax
#

the feedback on the assault being stronger when point-blank is making me think two things:
1). I wonder how many GMs have stayed away from barraging with Assaults at point blank before simply because Engagement penalties made them go "mm, better not," because I suspect it's still probably pretty strong even in the CRB version
2). This is a really good time for players to learn that Combined Arms 1 exists

fringe peak
#

Ye lol

#

But in all honesty I didn't end up doing combined arms assault too much because In a bit fan of double assault rank discipline with lock into shoot combo

#

Which is still really strong

rose hamlet
young turtle
#

It’s actually quite rare in my experience that corebook assaults ever go up close on purpose

#

I dont think the rebakes are stronger up close than the core book assault but there’s def something to be said about the rifle looking like it "encourages" that more

wise creek
young turtle
#

Usually i dont barrage with the knife with assaults and instead when I’m up close i tend to skirmish or ram

#

Then move out

#

Use a boost to put some distance also

#

And if an overwatch happens just use hunker down

wise creek
#

yeah same, it honestly (for me at least) have to do with the "fantasy" of "guy with rifle"

#

like the knife is just there as a fallback, but the main job is to just pepper people from a distance

young turtle
#

That assault has gotta be in the trenches!

#

It just feels normal yeah

wise creek
#

if the knife was named like "bayonet" i think my brain would be encouraged more to do that

young turtle
#

It’s got the energy of a firing line generally

wise creek
#

pretty much yeah

#

1 armor and 15 hp is definitely "get in there" levels of survivability

raw prairie
#

napoleonic war type beat?

brisk flax
#

you can run out in the open with assaults and shrug off a hit and just keep going

brisk flax
#

My take is that this isn't even necessarily "wrong," but I think this might be a product of psychology more than mechanics

#

that is, I have a feeling that using CRB assaults for barrages might surprise people at how useful and effective it is

surreal zenith
#

Assault Barrage: it's fast, it's easy, and its free

brisk flax
#

you don't get the accuracy offsetting the engagement BUT you do get reliable to make missing with the rifle less onerous, and then you get the knife

wise creek
#

yeah if anything this conversation made me realize how good barraging is with the assault. it is not something that would've crossed my mind before hand

plucky patrol
#

honestly I quite like the increased focuse/usecases the rebake gives the knife

brisk flax
#

probably the biggest argument against it is simply that charging in makes the assault likely to get focus fired more than if it's standing at a distance behind some cover of its own

#

but that applies to both versions equally

young turtle
#

Oh it’s 100% psychology partly, i will say this ends up being encouraged less with some optionals however

plucky patrol
#

it helps it feel like an actual cohesive piece of the kit and not a weird backup weapon to toss when your veteran system traumas

young turtle
#

You get less out of your grenade launcher because of engagement, but also because you can catch yourself in it more easily

brisk flax
#

yeah the grenade launcher to me signals a different gameplan in mind

young turtle
#

And rank discipline is harder to maintain ime with melee

#

Since those have an easier time displacing/preventing movement generally

#

To me the knife is always caught in a bit of an odd spot because if i plan on using it for a barrage enough to make it a gameplan, I’m better served by sentinels

#

(Which always struck me as the real "generic npc" ironically compared to assaults)

blissful lion
#

Yeah, I don’t know what the knife is really for other than barraging, because as it is, unless you’re in the very specific case of someone with CA1, (or the less specific case of general soft cover) it’s kinda worse to overwatch with, which is one of melee’s main things. The only thing it has going for it is a bonus to hit, +10% or so for a -33% to damage.

#

Maybe it’s meant to be for those edge cases to give them more versatility but I’m not sure if that decision is very commonly made or if it’s even that interesting/gameable

brisk flax
#

The knife is there for vibes

#

like being honest that is probably a good bit of it

#

I do think "the assault can get in your face and bayonet shoot you" is an overlooked element of its kit and more GMs should endeavor to teach their players not to get gap-closed by assaults

neon blaze
#

you gotta get in there

#

its in the name

#

i've honestly always been kinda ruthless with assaults and sentinels whenever i get the chance and barraged with them, its good

bold crystal
#

the knife says 'watch out, this guy can hit you really hard if you let it'.

neon blaze
#

oh that reminds me: I did actually get to use a Veteran Assault last saturday for my Winter Scar game (thanks Vasil) and yeah Commando is everything I dreamed it could be, which makes it the first Veteran I actually got to see the Veteran trait trigger from (besides custom ones I made too)

#

my only thoughts though, outside of flavour being on point and otherwise a fun ability to engage with, is that the combination of Thrown 5 with a NPC-ified Hunter 1 means it has a surprising amount of reach with its "Barrage" equivalent

#

maybe thats fine truth be told - it is a Veteran after all - but going from Range 1 to technically Range 7 with its Barrage was a very noticeable leap

#

I don't even think it would of been that different with a Rebake Assault either aside from being slightly worse - -1 to Hit on the rifle and -1 damage on the knife would of been the most changes

indigo oasis
neon blaze
#

Hop 2, Thrown 5

indigo oasis
#

Oh right

spice aspen
#

i've used assault barrages! they're really useful. it's fun when a striker gets cocky like "oh I should get near to them so they're not effective at range" and then the assault just is like yeah okay i'm down and starts stabbing. I agree that not enough people recognize their utility kitteehee

neon blaze
# neon blaze I don't even think it would of been that different with a Rebake Assault either ...

but yeah, dunno. its a weird case of "I love this optional and it works exactly how I thought and was fun to use" but also "there is a nagging party of my brain that says its kind of extremely passive in how it resolves and increases the Assault's attacking profile" - especially if you compare it to stuff like Rock and Roll or Rending Cleave or even Leadwall which get their "extra" attacks through strict conditionals (Archer can't move, Berserker requires really tight crowds, and Breacher needs to be a Breacher and miss every shot)

#

but I've obviously not tried those optionals out yet so couldn't say on a direct comparison

bold crystal
#

I feel like the issue there might be the 'the knife returns automatically' but I'm kind of loathe to suggest removing it because then you have to track that.

#

(like, if it is an issue.)

neon blaze
#

thats my gut feeling too in truth - without the return it would force an Assault to commit, but it'd also mean you get to see the hop a lot less. again, not sure how that'd feel or if that even fixes anything, or if there is something to be fixed. I'm just forwarding my thoughts after performance

#

Kai can do whatever with it

indigo oasis
#

Also to be fair, it is just making barrage more accessible- technically it’s not adding more actions or attacks

brisk flax
#

Yeah, tracking thrown melee weapons is kind of a pain I don't particularly care a lot for

#

I think this is one of those "notice how anyone who really wants to lean into this element of the game immediately beelines for the thing that lets them ignore that" things via Hunter 2

#

nobody is making a shock knife thrown weapon master and going "NO, I will NOT automatically retrieve my weapons, I will walk over and pick them up as god intended"

indigo oasis
#

Exotic gear is probably one of the exceptions simply because they’re allowed to get freaky with those mechanics

bold crystal
#

I definitely agree that it's a type of friction that players... frankly don't want to interact with. it might be a little more important as a balance lever for the trait(if that's at all necessary) but I'm frankly more opposed to 'another thing the GM has to track' than the potential benefit

brisk flax
bold crystal
#

yeah absolutely

#

at least players don't have to think about 'whose thrown weapons are these' - imagine two commando assaults.

brisk flax
#

yeah

blissful lion
#

I honestly feel like it should be more of a limited system type deal, no self-respecting knife thrower (mech or otherwise) just walks around with just the two knives

brisk flax
#

in terms of friction and payoff, things like the Archer's Rock and Roll does incur more opportunity cost, but it's also worth noting that the Archer can skirmish with their LMG, then Suppress 2 targets for potentially three attacks

#

Leadwall is likewise "if you totally beef two entire to-hit rolls, you get to try a third time"

#

Leadwall might be a little on the undertuned end because it's more of a consolation than an active consideration, it exists because I know a lot of people have lamented that their Breachers whiff a lot of shots and so it exists in the same vein as the Pegasus giving damage averaging to people who hate rolling low on their attacks

bold crystal
#

(aside: leadwall is very funny to me, given how many times it has been asked if the cannibal can be fired with a total of three barrels.)

neon blaze
#

maybe, I think Leadwall is fine on paper ultimately

young turtle
#

Clearly the solution is to make it so the assault gets to throw the knife or move 2 with it always (no vet trait needed)

#

Obviously

brisk flax
# neon blaze maybe, I think Leadwall is fine on paper ultimately

I do too, I simply know that some people find "lose less" type abilities unsatisfying (this was critique I saw leveled at the Gilgamesh at certain points, that a lot of stuff like its core passive weren't enticing to the critiquer because it wasn't something that gave them active leverage but was simply a "make the suck less" option)

#

The flipside is I also know some people really value that sort of thing

neon blaze
#

hell, I even think Commando is fine on paper, just during actual play it activated a part of my brain that just said "is this too easy to actually use"

young turtle
#

I think lose less is fine because it’s easy to track

trail pivot
#

i am kind of a lose less enjoyer but mainly because i can choose to deliberately play recklessly and thus leverage that lose less into an active benefit

#

"drive it like you stole it" as it were

young turtle
#

A problem with a lot of vets in crb and ultras also is like

#

There’s too much to track

#

It’s fine if there is less to track imo

young turtle
neon blaze
#

I don't even think throwing an extra 5 or 6 damage at range is the end of the world in the end

#

just my gut instinct is something that does allow that often is gated a bit more heavily with NPCs

#

as pointed also it is a Barrage vs a single quick on most of the other things so yeah

young turtle
#

Oh actually kai i had a question about the rebakes

neon blaze
#

that does amount to something

young turtle
#

Do you plan on doing the other templates?

trail pivot
#

when i got around to my assault alternatve revision I did end up givin gthe knife thrown, but also gave it a bit extended cqc utlity by letting eh sassualt combo with it if it was adjacent to the target the knife got hit with, so it had a reason to consider throwing the knife beyond "more range.

#

having the knife embed itself on the target and letting the assault rip the knife out as a quick action for basically a damaging super ram

brisk flax
#

"I have a safety net, this means I can be this much more of a jackass" IS proactive empowerment

brisk flax
#

like, I have feelings about the Pirate template and Exotic template, but nothing that has coalesced into a pearl of inspiration

#

"I think these are kind of mid" well okay

#

same with, like, RPV, I think it's kind of whatever but also I don't know that I have especially strong feelings about it enough to make me go "and here's how I would change it"

#

the thing I flirted with for a second was turning monstrosity from an NPC class of its own into a template, because frankly I think that makes significantly more sense, just reskin an NPC mech into a monster...what is an assassin but some sort of leaping predator, what is a goliath but a big ol kaiju, etc...but the actual stuff in the class is SUCH a grab bag and most of it is basically "here's a build a striker kit" that I feel like I would essentially be creating a bespoke thing from the ground up

trail pivot
#

i'd had ideas about a few of the templates but non of them are quite as big due to the degree of "how much i use these" when compared to the commander, elite, veteran, and ultra templates.

brisk flax
#

yeah

#

Elite I am basically Okay with

#

it does exactly what it says on the tin

#

I thought about looking at Commander, but when I sat down to really evaluate it, my takeaway was "actually Commander is pretty decent"

#

it does basically most of the things I think I would look at in a Commander template, memes of "it's just +stress/structure" aside

#

you can give rerolls, you get teamwork attacks, you can clear debuffs, you can give movement, etc

#

and it has its own little built-in counterplay of "jam this guy to turn their stuff off"

trail pivot
#

yeah. commander to me fit the base line of "i am fine with giving any of these particular optionals to npc's and none of it seems weirdly "too much:" (like spilinter rounds on the pirate template,)

brisk flax
#

I think there's an argument you could make that maybe you could flesh it out more or give it bigger more flashy optionals, but as a thing that lets you slap it on a guy and go, I think it's honestly pretty well set to cover most of the bases you'd want

#

Pirate imo suffers from the very obvious issue of "this doesn't need all this fuckin bonus damage"

trail pivot
#

the most i've ever wanted or considered for commander was like, just tying number of commander optionals to fight difficulty

brisk flax
#

also things like prying claws are weird

#

pirate feels like it has a weird angle of "things to fuck with the pilot directly/encourage people to get out of the mech" via prying claws, coreworm rockets, etc, and idk how I feel about that

#

but it largely comes down to "not super enthused"

trail pivot
#

prying claws and the rockets yeah but i think prying claws s definetly the biggest "well that's strange" optional up there in like, effect and practice.

brisk flax
#

I do LIKE coreworms as a funky little countdown, but ehhhh

trail pivot
#

i think that core worms (like the og melt down timer) does have a bit of a "if you roll high enough this penalty doesn't matter deal going on with it

brisk flax
#

Mercenary is a case of the template largely being just sort of a weird grab bag...it has a flare drone, it has an orbital strike, this is stuff you could have just cross-classed...but I think there's an interesting foundational idea of "this template has singled out ONE GUY and will make that person's life hell"

#

but that's hard to design around without feeling super punitive, is my concern

bold crystal
#

a lot of template optionals really come down to 'why would you do that to a player' and pirate is kind of the obvious example

trail pivot
#

i think the biggest thing i've taken mercenary for was just the base "accuracy against guys engaged with your allies" baseline

brisk flax
#

I did something with suldan's Champion template where one of the options you can pick is Nemesis which essentially says "the Champion singles out one PC and gets additional bonuses against that character only, AND that character gets bonuses against the Nemesis right back"

trail pivot
#

i do think mercenary as a template is like, one of the few templates im okay with slapping onto every single npc in an encounter, which is kind of rare,

brisk flax
#

Mercenary, to me, feels like Tom was having nascent brain signals of what might eventually have become some of the NPC "faction" ideas in ICON where some NPC factions impose, like, weird minigames into combat, like collecting gold pieces

trail pivot
#

like I could give nearly every npc's mercenary and it wouldn't be nearly as "why tho" as say, an all pirate or all RPV opfor would be

brisk flax
#

Yeah agreed

#

it's pretty "safe" in that regard

#

I think the issue I have with it is mainly that it lacks a strong identity and a lot of its stuff is just sort of curated cross-class pilferings from other NPCs

trail pivot
#

yeah

brisk flax
#

but I see areas where it COULD be pretty strong, focused on the bounty hunting, ganging up on weaker targets type of stuff

trail pivot
#

yeah, def. it's one of those "could use some focuse."

space is a template ive looked at a few times despite it being fairly safe, if only because iv'e felt that like "its optionals don't feel quite as competitive" and its baseline trait is like, something i feel i could just handwave in to an opfor, something i already do for players if i know im sending them into permanent 0-g environments.

brisk flax
#

I would almost be tempted to give the Mercenary template some sort of baked in reverse Orator where PCs can attempt to try and sway them to fuck off or turn on their allies with potential costs and consequences, but that's one of those ideas that sounds a lot easier said than done in terms of clean implementation

#

Re: Spacer, it does feel a little threadbare, and I won't lie that "this feels a little threadbare" is part of why I decided to put the Marine template together

#

I think Spacer suffers simply from not having a lot going on

#

give it a full complement of stuff and make it a weird engineer/controller template

trail pivot
#

yeah

#

gravity rifle being an on hit + save reliant with no other effect was always like

#

"why is it both of these"

brisk flax
#

the gravity rifle and concussion gun are fine-ish (agreed on the gravity rifle, I think it's a consequence of the displacement being SO huge, but I would give it a consolation then)

#

the sealant mine is eh whatever, also limited 1

#

it needs like 2-3 other things

trail pivot
#

yeah i was either thinking of a consolation or just, making it not require both and maknig the displacmeent much less

#

huh you know i just noticed, i need to go verify ithis in the book but does spacer realyl only have 4 optionals

#

it does,in fact, only have 4

brisk flax
#

yeah, two are limited 1 and two are guns

#

I would, given my druthers, probably do some weird shit like ditch the thumper grenade and turn it into some reusable system akin to the cables in Just Cause that let you rubber band people to objects, lean into the forced movement element

indigo oasis
brisk flax
#

"a less shitty stun" is fine, my issue is the particular implementation thereof

bold crystal
#

being a pilot in mech combat is bad for your bones.

trail pivot
#

i think on the player end pryin claws is still kind of weirdly jank and expensive, and on the gm side its like "this is a full action limited 1 that requires me to be adjacent and its also kind of jank"

bold crystal
brisk flax
#

there's a reason that my PC-ified version (the hydroelectric claw) is basically a grapple + shred

trail pivot
#

like as a gm i dont use it 10% because of dismounting, 10% because of how the players might not like it, and like 80% because "why would i do this instead of using my useful NPC Kit"

brisk flax
#

and not weirder stuff to try and replicate the system more faithfully

bold crystal
trail pivot
#

like strikers tend to have mid save targets and great things to do while adjacent (hit you with a chain axe)

#

so like

#

what npc has the save target and the complete lack of useful npc actiosn to make prying claws worth it

#

outside of a personal vendetta i have against the player

#

the cataphract has the speed and save to use it but why would they when they can just shoot the player and ram them or something

indigo oasis
#

With coordinated carnage specifically

#

The templates definitely suffer from the fact that they were seemingly designed for flavor first mechanics second.

Spacer feels like the most mechanically cohesive of the CRB templates, where it’s all based around Knockback and movement manipulation, but like mentioned some of the design choices + being threadbare definitely hurts it. Yet it’s mechanical cohesion is part of why people love Spacer so much

#

More modern templates definitely circumvent this issue, but it’s not a consistent case- horror for example is a cool template I like a lot, however the fact the number of optionals it provides scale really compounds the fact there’s not a lot of thematic or mechanical synergy with the template. It’s a grab bag in a similar way to Exotic because it’s another template trying to fill a niche that’s literally just “etc”, which is an uphill battle to fight

#

Anyway, a flavor first design philosophy when it comes to templates is more harmful than helpful, as it makes it so that you can narrow into on the flavor of the OpFor you’re designing, but it also makes potentially interesting mechanics force the narrative to be subservient to the mechanics at play

#

And it also makes the mechanics shallower which… yeah that’s probably more important lol

#

This discussion actually makes me realize just how good a lot of homebrew templates are for sticking to a theme- it’s definitely not an easy thing to do, especially if the goal is to stick to a mechanic that hasn’t been claimed by another NPC

fringe peak
#

tried out the npcs with my specops comp. overall seemed pretty good!

indigo oasis
#

Btw @trail pivot you mentioned trying to take a stab at rebaking the Lurker at some point- did you manage to make some leeway on that out of curiosity?

trail pivot
#

still working on the optionals, haven't decided if i wanted to make it a little bulkier or faster in its baseline profile yet

indigo oasis
#

Ye with the discussion from… a while back it would be a trick to figure out how to balance bulk vs speed

trail pivot
#

it was less a balance thing and mostly a "what the fuck do i even do after gutting these optionals"

#

but i also have lik a billion other things to do and i get paid for almost none of them so in my top priority list of things im thinking aboutlurker is kinda low up there

indigo oasis
#

Which ones did you gut?

indigo oasis
#

Or a Spite one but I haven’t actually ran a Spite so that one’d be worse

trail pivot
#

i made a change to empowering shroud and moved that into base kit, turned umbral into an optional, changed it a little bit, and gutted the rest

#

i just tossed out consume, devouring, defensive and ripper claws really

indigo oasis
#

Tbh I feel like you could combine Consume and Defensive to make it a “brace only if you consume the shroud”, since I presume you’d be ditching the invis EDIT: why did I type invis? I meant resistance

trail pivot
#

partly because "i don't like these" partly because "im going to make this guy maybe give a shit about being in the stink cloud or not and give it shit to do wwhen its not

#

i actually made the lurker only invis while it is outside of the stink cloud

#

and i also removed shred from teh cloud

#

i got rid of consume an defensive not for balance reasons and most fot "it already has enough reason to camp the cloud and im not as interested fully in a full perma clamp scenario"

indigo oasis
#

Full perma clamp?

trail pivot
#

but for reference,

System, Quick Action
At the start of any combat, when they arrive as reinforcements, or as a quick action, the Lurker can create a rippling storm of nanites – a SHROUD ZONE – in a free Blast 1 area within Range 5. SHROUD ZONES provide soft cover. Additionally, while inside a SHROUD ZONE:
Lurkers (including this one) gain RESISTANCE to all damage and heat.
Hostile characters are IMPAIRED.
Shroud Zones can only be targeted by tech attacks and weapons that target E-DEFENSE (e.g., smart weapons). They have E-DEFENSE 10/12/14 and disperse upon any successful attack. There is no limit to the number of SHROUD ZONES that can exist, and they persist until destroyed, or until the end of the Scene. SHROUD ZONES can overlap each other, but their effects do not stack.``````Hellswarm Haze
System
The Lurker is Invisible when it is not in a SHROUD ZONE. ``` this is my current version (hellswarm haze is new)
#

i also nerfed the shroud e defense a little bit

indigo oasis
#

Hm- yeah so combining Consume and Defensive wouldn’t work here

trail pivot
#

and decided i would remove the limit on shrouds

indigo oasis
#

If it’s invisible outside the shroud, I’d 100% make it so that it’s more mobile outside the shroud

trail pivot
#

but beyone thatr, theose tow do not fit my future vision, i dont like either of them and i don't really think they're interesting or necessary

#

but yes beyond that im not thinking about stats right now,

indigo oasis
#

It has a defense regardless of where it is, and now it’s more encouraged to move between shrouds

trail pivot
#

i am developing optionals checks watch whenever i can be bothered to do so in between making breacher, my three campaign things, and a bunch of other writing

indigo oasis
#

And since it’s encouraged to move between shrouds it maybe doesn’t need Umbral, tho keeping it an optional sounds good

#

If I could make a suggestion, the hive’s optionals, both rebake and CRB, tend to focus on upping the lethality and control capabilities of the Razor Swarms. Perhaps Lurker can focus more on the support angle, specifically comboing with allies?

optionals that remove shrouds should probably be plural if there’s no shroud cap, so one could be if an ally would be attacked in a shroud, the Lurker can teleport in, take the attack, and then delete the shroud?

#

Or something along those lines

#

Anyway yeah, I getcha on having higher priorities

trail pivot
#

im not really taking suggestions rn

indigo oasis
#

Fair- nevermind then

plucky patrol
#

You know I was working on a rebaked/alt pirate template a while back, I might pick that back up and maybe broaden my horizons to some of the other weirder templates

#

Actually, I'm getting some pretty fun ideas for a monstrosity template

#

That'll probably be my next project

indigo oasis
#

Tho I do find it a tad bare bones in its current state

plucky patrol
#

I'm not familiar with PPG unfortunately

#

I stay away from most 3rd party content at this point to avoid idea contamination

indigo oasis
#

Fair ‘nuff

trail pivot
#

same

rose hamlet
#

I had a couple other optionals ideas for it but nothing materialized yet

plucky patrol
#

Oh yeah my take on alt pirate is pretty much the exact opposite

rose hamlet
#

Nice, opposite design spaces

#

It’s good when it feels like you’re not just retreading someone else’s footsteps

plucky patrol
#

Mine is more "I like the lethal striker vibes, what are these wonky control optionals doing here"

#

Though I did take out deadly as a base trait too

rose hamlet
#

Yeah for me I basically went “this is dirty fighting: the template”, gave it an on-crit prone passive, changed Splinter Rounds to be bonus damage vs prone, and added two tech abilities (“steal your drone” and “cascade your NHPs”). Happy to talk more about it in #1254229800952922193

#

I’m also biased in favor of the CRB Pirate optionals because they feel like cool horror abilities. Not the weird horror of Horror™️ template but a more grounded kind. I featured them prominently in a fight in #1057797886156476489.

I generally like stuff that attacks different angles of the character sheet, especially stuff that reminds the players that they are not their mechs, but the pilots within the mechs.

Obviously, to each their own

fluid zodiac
#

Until I realized I could fulfill a player's request to off their PC in narrative play, I was thinking about using pirate w/coreworm but reflavoring it as something like "wretched"

#

Pirate feels very much like the template you give to a guy that you want fighting against to suck more than anything else

#

The flavor is appreciated, if a bit narrow

ashen galleon
#

I utterly love them too because it allows you to make combats more team focused. So the enemy may be able to shrug off the raleigh's hand cannons, but not a siege cannon for example

errant needle
#

Ironically, Pirate has two of my favorite optionals with Boarding Leash and Slaver Signal. Boarding leash being fun for melee builds while Slaver Signal is scary sounding, but I find it funny that RAW, the CRB version has an undocumented solution case that you can shoot your ally to wake them up rather than the full action system check.

#

I never mention this to my players because I want it to be a surprise reward if one of them asks. lol

fathom root
young turtle
#

I think the real theme for the Pirate template is that they force you to be worried about things you normally wouldn't

#

Like getting your pilot out

#

or making your pilot go down

#

and I think that's an interesting angle to make them truly feel like they fight dirty

#

A lot of it is psychological

#

imo

#

So I think if a rebake of them is ever made, I think it should keep that sort of theme without neccesarily being "lol the GM can kill your pilot now"

rose hamlet
#

Prying Claws but it rips off a weapon/system instead of tearing out the pilot 🤔

fathom root
#

i think keeping the pilot tearing would be fine

#

since it would cause problems

#

but a weapon destruction system would also be pretty neat

rose hamlet
#

Yeah I agree on both counts, but was offering it up for those who are hesitant on the Claw

fathom root
#

the extra bonus damage does feel excessive though, not much uniqueness from that

vale crescent
supple leaf
#

Yeah I’m not a big fan of Coreworm or Prying

vale crescent
#

I am >:)

onyx knoll
rose hamlet
toxic stream
#

I'm going to try running these NPC with my Middle Schoolers as a sort of high impact stress test. A lot of the worries discussed in the primer mirror what's my students have said (in not so many words)

#

I should have some sort of data reasonably soon, as we play nearly every day

brisk flax
#

neat

fringe peak
#

a slight criticsm i got players recently is the overunbandce of 'marks'. they sometimes feel like it's alot to keep track of. Especially when it comes to enemies to pair well with like scout and sniper. I don't think it's a bad thing so to speakof course. Just some feedback i got

rose hamlet
#

That can be a fair criticism of the CRB too yeah

vale crescent
#

New combat just dropped. Scout with expose weakness, sniper, Sentinel with marker shells, ronin and an assassin

orchid ledge
#

finished up a combat in which i used the new operators and breachers. was excited to really break the new operator in but unfortunately all of them died on sight! never so much as fired a shot. as kai mentioned a couple days ago, this is simply a case of "players were rolling bullets" so its no big shakes, but perhaps it may still be helpful data

re: breacher, this remains my favorite rebake. i gave you my review of this before and nothing has changed. thermal charge's shmoovement feels so good and so clean, size 2 allows me to level CZs flat, and that tiny bump to save target honestly does so much work

i do miss the extra points of armor and speed. being so big and so slow hangs a big "shoot my ass off" sign from their necks, and theres not much you can do as you trundle into position for a good breach ram. thermal charge felt like a "necessary" optional just to be able to close the gap; either that, or waste breach ram simply to reach the engagement rather than scrambling it

those complaints are small potatoes, though. i fielded 3 of these things and they all performed very well for me. in the future im probably going to favor fielding this as an elite

edit: or field with the new bastion 🤔 stack up would probably be an extremely dope combo. kai rebakes lead to bastion meta????? 😱 thats my youtube thumbnail

rose hamlet
#

Looking forward to the eventual 🅱️rothers comp of 🅱️astion, 🅱️arricade, 🅱️erserker, and 🅱️reacher EDIT: and 🅱️ombard

orchid ledge
#

solomag dot emoji

rose hamlet
#

That’s a whole-ass team comp huh

orchid ledge
#

i want to field that right now god damn

rose hamlet
#

Their motto is “Where we’re going, we won’t need no cover”

orchid ledge
#

unironically the anti holdout meta

rose hamlet
#

Just blow up all the terrain (Breacher, Bombard) and bring your own (Bastion, Barricade)

orchid ledge
#

one thing ive found about the rebakes is that the various "nerfs" are easily countered with a little extra attention to team synergy

#

which was one of kai's stated goals, and in that respect i perceive it as a pretty big success so far

#

granted i havent tried out every synergy, and nobody will for a long time, but its one of those things that i think will come to light more and more over time

#

for the most part its me being like "wow this sucks now" as a petulant, knee-jerk reaction as i watched my units get vaporized. then an hour later sitting up in bed like "but what if i paired it with [insert different NPC here]"

#

then suddenly its really good

#

so like for example, the breacher is slower and takes a bit more damage now, which can be tough to utilize at tier 2 against veteran players

#

BUT kai has sprinkled in mobility options across the roster that arent just "use mirage"

#

i need to run more scrims 😩

rose hamlet
#

You and me both

#

Excited to use the rebakes, my v1.2 NPCs, my Minotaur-load of optional rules…

fluid zodiac
#

I'm using a rebake Rainmaker, Demolisher, Mirage, and Archer this weekend

#

Plus the rebake ultra+vet templates and a new NPC I'm testing

#

Argus armor I'm putting my hopes in you to keep them from getting mulched dogepray

#

I've actually switched all of my NPCs to the rebake varieties but I don't have many thoughts about them so far, save for some things that I know aren't worth bringing up

smoky bluff
#

Players love to chew on npcs with their big numbers and I've found that the rebake bastion is very resistant against most, not all that can Shred though but that's a turn off a player who wants to do big numbers off the turn order

orchid ledge
#

kukri, youre right

#

im going to field more spites 😌

#

ill tell my players to thank you

fluid zodiac
#

Always field more spites.

brisk flax
#

speedwise it's gone from 3/4/5 to 3/3/4, but it hasn't lost any armor even going up by tiers

orchid ledge
#

huh maybe i have an older LCP

#

i got 0 armor here

brisk flax
#

that shouldn't be the case and sounds like an error

orchid ledge
#

must be! damn that woulda been nice last night, but it happens

brisk flax
#

I don't think I ever had its armor lowered

orchid ledge
#

no big deal, ill be sure to edit that where i can

vale crescent
rose hamlet
orchid ledge
#

1 armor is far from the end of the world, just might have let them stumble forth an extra turn

#

ill be sure to consult the PDF in the future just in case i run into a similar error again

brisk flax
#

speed-wise my take on the breacher is that having bigger size makes for a bigger footprint and slightly better "reach" with the shotguns, and the bigger issue facing it is you need adjacency to ram, but the breacher has breach ram, thermal charge, and follower count in its own kit as movement boosters

orchid ledge
#

like i mentioned, you have added quite a few movement features in the whole roster

subtle nacelle
#

unrelated.. i just noticed casing matters...

image.png
#

actually yea, let me fix that and then yall can download it cuz it's having a chaotic effect on compcon

#

ok now yall can download

orchid ledge
#

thanks for all your hard work eleonor!!

solid pilot
#

this is 100% a flavoring thing but is this still a little balanced?

image.png
brisk flax
#

Bonus damage being burn is nominally an upgrade. It's not quite as much of one as converting the entirety of something's damage to burn, as armor will still affect the base damage, so in that regard it's not really cashing in on that element. You have the chance for successive burn on failed checks and that's the biggest change in a case like this

#

I don't think in and of itself it should cause any sort of massive swing in terms of balance

solid pilot
#

Yeah I know changing to burn is a bit of an upgrade from base but I was mainly hoping it wouldn't swing balance too badly

indigo oasis
twilit coral
#

Ran a gauntlet sitrep with fortification engis, punisher sentinels, fix and flank assaults, and impending archers.
PCs didn't have a ton of direct feedback aside from really appreciating assault having an interesting game plan beyond "sit in the back and plink you for reliable over and over." Meant they could play around it by ensuring they had at minimum soft cover. Mech wrecks being usable as cover came up a lot more here than before.

I also noticed the players grating against the engis much less than they did when I ran them in OWS. Placing two 1 hp turrets seems to have felt a lot better than the 1 giga turret that could have like, reliable. I also appreciated the engi being able to get set up quicker. Not a ton of comment on your concerns about multiplicative scaling unfortunately bc they really hard focused the engis bc of their OWS trauma. The size 1 hard cover optional was cool too. Being able to use the turrets as cover and cause engagement was great.

As a GM I love the increased size of sentinel. Makes it actually feel like a defender between the Guardian trait being much more usable and the increased Threat footprint. Also liked the new eye of midnight. Previously it was something I mostly didn't bother with.

I don't have a ton about the archer except that maybe impending threat is a bit much? Maybe it isn't but it felt like a pretty big unconditional power upgrade. I impromptu ruled that it didn't include free actions, though as written I believe it does, not sure if that's your intention. The point where it really felt overly impactful was against my melee PCs. Have a hecatonchieres that couldn't even Hide without getting shot. Having some kind of downside or extra condition on impending threat like half damage or expanding the damage taken effect to any of the target's allies maybe? This all comes with the caveat of my next point:

I think I might've overdone it with the "guy who attacks you with reliable damage if you move" this combat. I wasn't thinking too much about it when I put the enemy comp together but in retrospect it's a lot. Maybe impending threat is fine if you don't also have the Sentinel there threatening the same thing as the archer.

brisk flax
#

So there's a couple of wrinkles and nuances

#

To start with, in either case, this is triggered off just "moves or takes action," which means any action, even free ones, so yeah it does work like that

#

The CRB version is also on a separate reaction from Suppress, which means it can be used freely against anyone without expending Suppress, it doesn't have to be pre-targeted, etc

#

the flipside is that it has its own quit clause, where the targeted character can lose the triggering whatever

#

though you can't really "bait it out" given the archer is the one who decides when to use it

#

the rebake basically consolidates this into Suppress as an additional set of trigger conditionals

#

so the differences are:
1). as part of Suppress, it only applies to whoever is being Suppressed, and isn't independently targetable
2). It doesn't have its own special "avoid this" clause, instead leaning on Suppress' own set of counters (the suppress target damaging the archer, leaving LoS, the archer becoming stunned or jammed, etc)

#

but broadly, if you were to take the CRB version of Impending Threat, you would still be able to pick someone in range who "took an action" and bully them with the LMG

#

and in either case, it would come before something like a Hecatonchires attempting to hide

#

so in that regard, I don't think this is a case of the rebake doing something significantly different from the CRB

#

yeah the Hecatonchires in question could prevent a CRB impending threat attack by going "okay guess I'll lose the action" but that comes with its own tradeoffs, namely if they really want to hide now they have to overcharge to try again

#

which makes it more a case of "what are you taking on the chin, the LMG or overcharge heat?"

#

even in a case of a pure CRB Archer w/Impending Threat, someone can still be caught in a situation of
1). I want to damage the archer to break Suppress
2). my options for doing so take an action to pull off
3). the archer Impending Threats me
4). I have to either give up the triggering action or get attacked with the LMG

#

the dynamic is broadly the same in either case

twilit coral
#

Oop. I was meaning to cross reference things with the base classes but missed that one w/ impending.

#

I hadn't run vanilla impending archer (or if it was in osr/ows it didn't come up) but your changes to impending sound good

#

I think it was just a case of me having accidentally stacked too much reaction stuff on the PCs

brisk flax
#

To be clear, I don't think it's unreasonable to go "impending threat has a very broad trigger portfolio and I don't care for it," I more want to note that this isn't a case of the rebake doing something the CRB doesn't, so it's more just Impending Threat in general in either version

brisk flax
#

also, to clarify: the rebake version of Impending Threat specifically only lets the archer use it IF the action doesn't target them. So Hiding, as the Hecatonchires here did, will let them get shot, but if the Heca had first plinked at the Archer with an assault rifle, that would have broken Suppress and then let them freely Hide without risk of being shot

#

not to say they HAD an assault rifle, but I figured I would note that

#

basically, if the rebake Archer has you zeroed in, your primary means of engaging with that are "shoot them"

#

or toss a grenade, etc

twilit coral
#

The rebake also opens the possibility of allies breaking LoS for you somehow which would just get reacted to with the crb version

carmine idol
#

off topic to this project but was curious because it entered conversation with my gm - was there an OpCal and AutoStab 'rebake' floating around from a time ago? 🤔

supple leaf
#

As in making them more balanced?

rose hamlet
carmine idol
#

v interesting - not for this project sure, but I'm curious as to both of their thoughts on the matter all the same

carmine idol
# supple leaf As in making them more balanced?

yah, falls in line with the same idea as the NPC Rebakes themselves - remove floating damage and accuracy in favour of things that change gameplay and involve decision making through conditionals, etc

supple leaf
#

Aah mhm mhm mhm, yea that sounds really neat

fringe peak
#

i will say paring the rebake bombarb with some scouts felt alot of fun

brisk flax
subtle nacelle
#

Kai.. if you ever wanna do other LCP-able rebakes.. uh.. I know a gal

brisk flax
# carmine idol v interesting - not for this project sure, but I'm curious as to both of their t...

my thoughts are:
1). autostabilizing hardpoints is one of the biggest contributors to why the Inaccurate tag quickly becomes toothless, which is one reason why weapons that lean on it as a balancing factor (like the HMG or the Decksweeper), are constant go-to picks in ways that other negative tags like Ordnance or Loading aren't, yes you can build around Loading using various tools, but Autostabilizing Hardpoints is simply a frictionless low effort way to immediately pay off that dilemma
2). Overpower Caliber, meanwhile, is one of those things that I'm not sure ratchets things in as undesirable a direction for me personally, but tom has talked about how icon doesn't really have additive bonus damage for several reasons, among them the fact that it sort of warps things around stacking bonus damage regardless of how good it is or not

#

like idk if I have a "rebake project" in mind so much as my personal thought that autostabilizing hardpoints should be removed and replaced with something not it

#

when I've brought this up in various channels before, someone will usually wander by and go "but that would make those weapons that rely on it feel bad to use" and that is maybe the least sympathy-inducing argument imaginable because it basically boils down to "but I'm so used to being able to exploit the hell out of these"

#

same with things like Vanguard 1 etc, I think more than bonus damage, easy access to floating accuracy on the PC end is too cheap and readily available

indigo oasis
#

Personally I think AutoStab compounded with Vanguard 1 is too much- if you just had Vanguard 1 it wouldn’t be as big an issue. That’s just a personal opinion tho.

brisk flax
#

Vanguard 1 is why a number of CQB weapons even have Inaccurate to begin with, when a one-rank talent is deforming weapon pool design that strongly, you have created an extremely unfavorable situation

#

tom had to invent Special Double Inaccurate for the Cannibal shotgun just so there was actually a form of CQB inaccurate that a talent couldn't patch over

#

like this kind of ties into, in a sense, some stuff this project is touching on from the other end: easy, effortless access to to-hit bonus stuff means less interaction with elements of the game that hinge on things related to that, if a gun exists where the intended trade-off factor is "it hits hard BUT it hits less often" and you have an effortless way to make its expected hit rate as neutral as anything else, then you have created a scenario where the latter is a non-factor

#

"I might need to use lock ons or prone to make sure I hit" wrong, just take Vanguard 1

bold crystal
brisk flax
#

Autostabilizing Hardpoints is more of an opportunity cost, BUT it's one that comes around as early as LL3 and is simply universally good if your goal is to become a consistent big-dick damage dealer, so how much opportunity are you REALLY being costed?

vale crescent
#

Decksweeper with vanguard 1... its literally impossible to use without producing vanguard unless I use some dumb systems to increase my shotgun range for some reason then please... go ham wirh your exbat siege stabilised shotgun

indigo oasis
#

You could probably tune down AutoStab a lot, like making its accuracy work exactly like Duelist 1, and it’d still be worth it

bold crystal
#

'you can't use this gun without sinking a core bonus and/or talent into it' is, perhaps, a Design Issue.

vale crescent
#

(Systems aren't dumb, they just are on a shotgun lmao)

#

Prone stays winning

indigo oasis
#

And Vanguard could probably replace Vanguard 1 with a more interesting Overwatch stuff, perhaps mandating a rearranging of levels

brisk flax
#

like I just don't

trail pivot
brisk flax
#

the decksweeper doesn't fall off a cliff in a world where vanguard 1 doesn't exist

vale crescent
#

Hmg is cracked at LL0, yeah newbies might miss a fuck ton cos they don't account for it... but when you lock on and ram HOLY HELL it's fun

bold crystal
indigo oasis
vale crescent
#

It's better but it's still overtuned

bold crystal
#

the AMR and other loading weapons might be closer to it!

brisk flax
#

lock on, prone, selectively choosing targets with lower evasion, or alternately leaning into inaccuracy having diminishing returns if the target is already stuck inside cover, but also there's the fact that as lancer currently exists Inaccurate gets slowly bought off by grit anyway

#

like at the end of the day, either Inaccurate as a tag is supposed to mean something or it isn't

vale crescent
#

Make innacurate like breacher shotguns 😎

indigo oasis
trail pivot
#

a lot of npc's dont have their npc's evasion stats scale with grit (or at all)

#

im doing a brief revision on them but largely i replace op-cal and auto stabs with support and control oriented core bonuses and turned the old op cal and auto stabs into GMS mods```Overpower Rounds:
2 SP, Mod
Choose one ranged weapon to equip this mod to. 1/scene, when you attack with that weapon, the attack gains +5 bonus damage, Knockback 2, and Reliable 3 (or increases the Reliable value by 2)

Auto-calculating Stabilizer
2 SP, Mod
Choose one weapon. When you consume Lock On to attack with that weapon, the attack gains +2 Accuracy instead of +1.```

indigo oasis
trail pivot
#

i dont know what that means tbh

vale crescent
#

< biggest AMR hater

indigo oasis
trail pivot
#

the amr was something we had a deal for in our own player side house rulings

brisk flax
#

re: the AMR, my personal take from a "minimal adjustments" standpoint, is basically to do the following:
1). remove Accurate from the Cyclone Pulse rifle, it doesn't need it and muddies the distinctions between it and the AMR. The Cyclone has big Reliable damage, you don't need both that AND Accurate
2). Adjust the AMR's damage from 2d6 to 1d6+6

trail pivot
#

i think i did the athena math and it was just yeah about roughly comparable to i think what kai proposed of "just make the damage consistent"

brisk flax
#

that's it

indigo oasis
#

We also technically already have OpCal/Autostab- it’s called Integrated Weapon/Mount Retrofitting

trail pivot
#

i think we did just use that for the house rules in game actually yeah, that + I decided to kick in hmg in the teeth

#

because it turns out with scaling grit its still kind of nuts

brisk flax
#

the AMR has Accurate and high flat damage on hit to eliminate the "snake eyes" issue in a way that doesn't lean on Reliable, because I would rather Reliable be the CPR's thing

#

the Cyclone retains its ability to move and shoot, has superheavy tier damage, and Reliable as a fallback

vale crescent
#

I was thinking, amr should be like 1d6+4 as a house rule but I'm so tempted by 1d6+6 because it makes it just so nice

trail pivot
#

opted for this for the hmg because inaccurate doesnt quite reign in it just having inbuilt Opcal by defaultHeavy Machine Gun Heavy Cannon, Inaccurate, Reliable 4 [8 Range] [2d6+1 Kinetic]

#

ive yet to have anyone use it so I'll see how it works out eventually in game whenever one of my players gets around to it

bold crystal
#

a certain amount of Big Flat Damage makes loading weapons much more enjoyable to use.

brisk flax
trail pivot
#

but none of them were quite damage goblins in the first place so it remains to be seen

vale crescent
#

Like... 1d6+6 is just so sexy on the amr due to the number of newbies put off by the AMR because of unoptimal builds resulting in not accounting for loading

brisk flax
#

there's a GMS heavy shotgun in suldan that makes peoples' eyes bug out because "oh my god, it does 1d6+7 damage??????????? that's so cracked!" and like damn wait until you see what the HMG does without Loading

bold crystal
#

if your base is 'fire this every other turn unless you overcharge a Lot or have other loading solutions' it has to have a good floor, and 2d6 is not it

vale crescent
#

We love a 2d6 finally being loaded after being empty for 3 rounds with ordnance and loading then hitting for 3 damage

brisk flax
#

1d6+6 IS a "damage buff" from 1d6+4 if you're using "averaged d6 damage dice" as a conversion formula, but it's a buff in a way that doesn't alter the max value of the weapon, it simply raises the floor, so yes your "average" is higher and poking about that of a 2d6 roll, but not in a way that makes it do more damage

bold crystal
#

I'm fond of the howitzer but it's... not a weapon that feels good to use. you could be firing the AMR through hard cover and it'd still feel better.

indigo oasis
#

It also is something, idk what, that AutoStab and OpCal make GMS’s core bonuses even more weapon focused than the other manufacturers- idk if those could have been non-weapon talents but it would’ve been nice

brisk flax
#

GMS has 5/6 core bonuses that are some variation of "shoot more guns harder better" but one core bonus that's "do the same thing for hacking" causes some people to go "woah this is bullshit!"

#

I agree that GMS' core bonus catalogue is too steeped in attack bolstering

#

I think the mount retrofitting and improved armament core bonuses are fine and arguably could even be consolidated

#

Integrated Weapon is fine

indigo oasis
brisk flax
#

as is Universal Compatibility

brisk flax
#

the tl;dr is: I don't think +SP is nearly as valuable as people imagine it to be, and Overcaliber is "cross-stream desirable" in a way a strict hacking core bonus isn't (hackers will take overcaliber, non-hackers will never take Hacking Overcaliber) so the +SP exists to give the core bonus even some narrow applicability outside of a limited demographic

#

(also if someone doesn't take another hacking system, half of the core bonus becomes pointless)

#

some people DO have strong opinions about additional means and methods of heat gen, but lancer's NPCs are all in a position where heatgunning even with additional sources thereof tends not to be casually breakable

indigo oasis
brisk flax
#

people similarly had worries about the superthermal blade during winter scar's playtest, similarly tried to break it, and my understanding is after a while everyone who tried doing so largely settled on "it's okay I guess"

indigo oasis
#

Heatgunning feels like one of those things where it’s horror stories make it seem way more impactful than it actually is

#

The way I see it, it requires a lot of investment into one specific NPC with specific actions not everyone has the investment to do effectively- before that NPC dies of course. The reward is double damage, an impactful mechanic, but you could’ve also been attacking the whole time instead

bold crystal
# brisk flax I agree that GMS' core bonus catalogue is too steeped in attack bolstering

and, I would argue, it is also simply too small an array of options for the role of GMS core bonuses in like, the core bonus ecosystem or whatever. if you have seven core bonuses, two of them are 'attack better', four of them are 'fix your mount situation(slash attack better)', and one of them is 'core power is good', that's just not enough variety especially compared to the other manufacturers' core bonus options.

wanton maple
#

My players only really break out the heatgunning when BIGHP ultras drop on the field.

Ultra Ship Rainmaker with Argus Armor, Ultra Broacher, Elite Vet Pyro who's overcharinger, ect.

And then everyone throws invades onto them

fringe peak
#

i wills ay thinking of the bombard, i'd love some kinda shell that left a brief zone of like... damaging terrain after the shot or something

blissful lion
#

bombard + ravager turret would go crazy 👀

brisk flax
rose hamlet
brisk flax
#

SP, on its own, is entirely neutral, it's an empty container you have to put stuff into, and furthermore as you note, "more systems" in lancer is not a linear increase in power, you're bounded by action constraints

#

the closest to a +SP core bonus that exists in the game is the SSC flight core bonus which is basically "you get a free +3 SP system perma-attached to your mech, but also it's a better version"

#

and I don't think you can backport that to "well the answer is +3 SP = one core bonus of power"

#

The last time I asked someone with strong feelings on this (that the core bonus was too good and the +SP was the reason why) to unpack their thoughts on it for me, they basically told me "no I'm not going to do that, you can just take my word for it," so

trail pivot
#

yeah i think the sp has to actually do something. the sp bonus i did include was only +1 and its mostly just popular because it provides anti invis/hidden utility on its own as a flat basis.

#

i dont think a +sp only core bonus could quite reach a point where its insanely broken unless its some absruudly high value ogms suddenly gets a bunch of powerful systems with no action cost

brisk flax
#

yeah +SP would arguably be okay if there were more really strong passive systems like "for 3 SP, you gain +2 Armor"

#

there USED to be stuff like this in the primordial days of early lancer and it all got parted out

#

even then, I think +SP would be very BORING and also still undertuned because you have to go fishing for systems to put IN the SP

trail pivot
#

yeah

#

in our personal view the only way one would be interesting were if it waas the secondary effect of anbonus, or it shared the spotlight, as it were

plucky robin
#

The difficulty of balancing 'passive effect' and 'takes action effects' in SP is tricky. It's why I like the idea of system slots and leaving SP purely for passive effects.

trail pivot
#

not quite so sure how i'd feel about system slots really, but i think i'd be straying a bit far from the topic

#

on a more related deal, this is also what i replaced Op cal and Autostabs with```New Core Bonuses:
Intrusion Package (Replaces Overpower Caliber):
1/round, when you target a hostile character with a single target tech action, until the end of their next turn, the target treats all characters as hostile, all characters treat them as hostile, and they are Impaired.

Autonomous Coordination (replaces Auto Stabilizing Hardpoints)
When you Stabilize or take a Full Tech action that only targets allied characters, as part of that same action, you may choose…

…Deploy or redeploy 1 drone, deployable, or mine to an adjacent space.
…Grant 1 adjacent allied character 4 Overshield.```

indigo oasis
rose hamlet
#

I’m here for it

trail pivot
#

its not really all that specific or gimmicky it just works

#

"yeah if you target someone with a tech action, they're impaired and also fuck-em if they were at all reliant on allied support effects"

#

like it automatically shuts off guardian, among other things

rose hamlet
#

It’s deterministic impaired too, so like, yeah

#

I’d snap that up

trail pivot
#

you dont even have to hit just use it

rose hamlet
#

Tell them “suffer” and they shall

trail pivot
#

the aegi's immuny to slowed and impaired effect tied to its shield gets disrupted by this, a lot of support npc's are likewise affected

#

ring of fire basically gets inverted,

#

if anything i might end up having to nerf it, but i'd have to see just because the first player to test it out only remembered it after like round 3 or something

#

The support basically turns into a brick if it doesnt have latch drone

neon blaze
#

Fairly late at this point in regards to the Opcal/bonus damage talk but I did have a thought that I rambled on about in the main homebrew-design channel about the idea of "what if Bonus damage was just a binary affair, you either had it or didn't" and how that could possible pan out in practice

Only issues really is that A: Opcal still throws a wrench in things by being conditionless vs Roland and Nuke Cav and everything else, but also B: It ironically would reward Heavy Mount mechs better than the Bonus Damage Strikers, so something would need to change to address that disparity (probably just make it the one case where it does stack)

#

but I've not really had the drive to experiment with something like that so far because frankly my table doesn't really go for the obvious Nukecav/Opcal/Asura/Everest silly plays in truth - not broke, so no fix needed

#

It's mostly mobility tech thats been driving me up the wall instead

young turtle
#

My take on opcal is it should raise the damage floor imo

#

Either by making your weapon crit on like, 18+ or something

#

or making it so you can reroll one damage die

#

something like that

young turtle
#

You keep the idea that it makes your weapon more accurate

#

and it still works fine with stuff like the HMG at lower levels because it basically enables it to crit if you roll with the difficulty at lower LL still

#

AND it occupies a niche that's not more accuracy

neon blaze
#

Yeah I could see something that

#

again I've not had the best experience with abuses surrounding them but I understand the theory that "conditionless X is super easy and accessible in the grand scheme of things"

#

hence why its all, well, conditional in not just talents but also frames and systems

#

FABI got changed more or less for a similar case of "too easily accessible" as well as the "Bonus damage keeps stacking" concern

blissful lion
#

Opcal damage is rolled separately to the regular damage and just replaces a die that rolls a lower result than it FemmeHeckYeah

neon blaze
#

finally, TF2 minicrits

blissful lion
#

Kinda messes with static damage weapons like smartgun tho

#

Tho I guess you just have a 1/3 chance to deal 5 or 6 damage instead

#

And in general is more complicated

brisk flax
#

fundamentally I don't think overpower caliber is as bad as autostabilizing hardpoints in my assessment of "things what warp lancer's gameplay strata by existing"

#

I do think there's a reason tom took icon in a very "no additive bonus damage direction" and I don't really disagree with it

neon blaze
#

to be fair though I'll admit: I'm not actually sure I'd personally ever want to replace the effect of Opcal and that is because one - and perhaps a selfish - reason for the fact Walking Armory's effect would become a lot weirder without a ready source of Bonus Damage that works on ranged

neon blaze
#

when it stacks

brisk flax
#

but on the whole, I think that "casually banishing Inaccurate from being a thing that matters" is "worse" for the game in terms of flattening texture than bonus damage

#

in terms of triage, I would ditch one over the other

#

I do think that overcaliber isn't, like, great but that's more bonus damage and its stacking in general, as noted

neon blaze
#

Accuracy does kind of polarise things more though, if the NPCs were anything to go by

brisk flax
#

Bonus damage on a core bonus resides in a space where, psychologically, players are going to be drawn towards making numbers go up, and also there's the fact that overcaliber is something that even hackers will shrug and pick to smack people with in a way that suggests it occupies a place that's a little too universally applicable

plucky robin
#

I wouldn't mind making Overpower Calibur like '+1 damage die, drop the lowest'

neon blaze
#

but my walking armory . .. ..

manic sky
#

My Raleigh player with an auto-stab Uncle'd MC-ASG Assault Shotgun, Vanguard 1, and Combined Arms 3 with a melee in the main slot, enjoying her extra free action Skirmish with +1 Acc while ignoring cover.

indigo oasis
trail pivot
#

if i were to change op cal with the damage formula, just from my own play experience, i'd probably not want to have it do any kind of die replace effects unless it just set a flor because something like "roll an extra die/reroll one die" type stuff i feel would slow the game down too much for how much of an actual impact it would have

#

feels nice on paper, but that kind of thing already seems like it's tacking on an extra minute + for just 1 damage roll when frequently players have to be reminded/prompted to roll their critical damage dice anyway

plucky robin
#

...1+ minute per roll? To roll 1 extra die and remove the lowest?

trail pivot
#

yeah!

#

you would be surprised

carmine idol
# trail pivot i did mne already

just found your doc and read through the discussion - very cool all round, only question I really had was whether the hacking core bonus is intended to effectively be "The target cannot be targeted by or benefit from allies actions, nor can they provide do the same to allies"? Initial reading made me thing of OSIRIS Gate 4 which would have been wild
(⁠ ⁠╹⁠▽⁠╹⁠ ⁠)

trail pivot
#

its not just actions, but benefits like guardian also would not work

#

if you used osiris gate 4, as i didnt make any special clause for it, it would still treat you as hostile,

#

and while i would probably rule that gate 4 just flat out does not work,

using the effect of the core bonus is optional, anyway.

finite egret
#

So that it would still work with walking armory

rose hamlet
finite egret
rose hamlet
#

I’ll say at this point I’m much more turned on to Maria’s takes; making opcal and autostab mods just makes sense in my head, and non-gun focused GMS CBs feels right

finite egret
#

Haven't seen them, but yeah that could also work

rose hamlet
#

Should be upthread

subtle nacelle
#

make autostab an ssc core bonus instead

fringe peak
#

Tried out the operator again today... Hmm. I do feel like it lacks the true mobility to kinda do it's thing. I often find myself when fielding it going "I could just bring specter with step/prowl to get a similiar skirmisher vibe"

Or funnily enough sniper does this very well cause of defensive relocation.

It's probably not a huge deal, but it's something that stuck out me

#

Could also be I'm not used to it

finite egret
#

Because that's where the teleport is going to shine. Bamf through the wall, shoot, and then bamf back again

vale crescent
rose hamlet
#

With 5 speed they can bamf through a 1-space thick wall, shoot, and bamf back

vale crescent
#

Yeah depends on layout

fluid zodiac
#

Also you gotta think a little sideways with them now

#

Since Strike and Fade (idr the name) has different effects based on when you teleport relative to attacking

#

So you can boost before attacking to get one effect, or teleport before attacking to get another

#

Giving it any more speed just gets it back to where it is in vanilla where it can just kite most players forever

finite egret
blissful lion
#

I wonder if opcal and autostab should just be on every manufacturer core bonus list, but just have different conditions to gain it depending on the general playstyle of that manufacturer

#

anyway, too much PC chat in the NPC chat!

rose hamlet
#

like, assuming a size 2 wall of uniform thickness

finite egret
finite egret
vale crescent
twin reef
#

It's a shame you aren't rebaking the Avenger. I'd love if someone could do something about the "*shoots ally* Why would the enemy do this?" meme.

rose hamlet
#

it's just not part of the larger doc

twin reef
#

Discord didn't show me when I searched. :V

rose hamlet
#

#1334655875679260692 message

twin reef
brisk flax
#

re: the operator, I need more feedback beyond "the vibes feel kinda off" before I commit to things like a range or speed increase

#

I don't mean to be dismissive, but there's not really a lot I can work with there

#

Yes, the rebake operator is pretty different from the CRB version, that is very deliberate

#

"It's dying too quickly" is workable, "this optional isn't proving very valuable" is also workable, and have gotten adjustments

indigo oasis
#

Tbh I’m reading it more as “it feels too slow to do its job” rather than “it’s vibes feel off”- in terms of what the feedback is saying

smoky bluff
#

I mean range 10 is still quite short for an artillery mech, even if the Operator's main goal is to shoot then teleport away where people can't get it, maybe thats why its "vibes feels off", I do get the feeling its a weird blend of striker and artillery, is it not possible to make the Raptor Plasma Rifle Range 12? akin to the Sherman's Andromeda

#

A few investment in AGI and poor positioning on the GM's part could easily lead to the Players quickly covering the gap, specially for a blackbeard

rose hamlet
#

I think part of the Operator rebake is challenging the established idea of Artillery range bands tbh

smoky bluff
#

true

rose hamlet
#

and thinking of movement as that range extension

brisk flax
brisk flax
#

is it not possible? yes it's possible, an infinite array of changes are possible

#

I would like to have a more solid idea of whether these changes are the right ones before I start pulling the trigger on them

smoky bluff
#

Yeah, guess we just need to keep running tests since this is probably the biggest change so far being the range band

brisk flax
#

literally the two biggest gripes with the operator have historically been:
1). the gun is too much
2). it can infinitely kite people

#

pushing its range or speed up is going to push it closer to point the second, and I would like to have more specific substantial feedback before I start doing that

smoky bluff
#

hm, i should run a test with the operator and see what I can bring for feedback too

brisk flax
#

I don't want to DISMISS feedback either, but "it felt like I could use another unit but also maybe I'm not used to it" is not really firm ground, because arguably yeah this one requires some getting used to

smoky bluff
#

Maybe if i build a poke op-for set-up the Operator could shine a lot more

indigo oasis
#

Maybe you could add a bullet point to the documents operator advice more explicitly saying “ideally it should attack targets on the very edge of its range before going even further away from them”

#

Not modify its stats but rather be more explicit about how its playstyle is intended to work

fringe peak
#

since it's standard movement only

finite egret
#

So teleport 2 spaces, shoot, then teleport 3 spaces

fringe peak
#

thats fair

#

i genuinly never thoguht abotu that

brisk flax
#

That's why there is specifically a movement splitting clause in the trait

#

as well as to address "well how does that work"

#

like I'll be honest: I think movement splitting being a thing that exists in lancer is dumb and annoying, but it's a thing that does exist

hollow steppe
#

Operater is the No Scope King running around the call of Duty map shooting people with a sniper rifle at close range and we love them for it. Big fan of your rework

finite egret
#

Don't like being able to run in and out of cover without needing to boost?

brisk flax
rose hamlet
brisk flax
#

I do think doing the "shuffle from behind LoS obstruction and shoot and shuffle back all in one go" thing isn't something the game really benefits from having in a way that makes the texture of the game deeper or richer for its inclusion, and I also think it would be of great benefit to nail down movement specifically as an A to B thing

#

there was a lot of weird debates/arguments when lancer was newer regarding "well can I shuffle back and forth between these two squares for my entire movement" as a means to bypass/trigger certain movement-activated thresholds, splitting movement has led to tons of confusion regarding the interaction between doing so and various "must move in straight line" or "this triggers on individual instances of movement" things etc

#

Jager Kunst 1, Ramjet/non-hover flight, etc

#

and a lot of that goes away if you say "movement is picking a destination point within your Speed/whatever and going there, you don't get to break it up, if you want to move again afterwards that's what Boost is for"

#

regardless, since I can't simply wave a magic wand and make this nonexistent, Strike and Fade does touch on this

# 
Trait
Whenever the Operator teleports during their turn before making any attacks, they gain +1 Accuracy on all attacks with the Raptor Plasma Rifle until the end of their turn. Whenever the Operator teleports during their turn after making any attacks, all attacks against them receive +1 Difficulty until the end of their next turn. If the Operator splits their movement with an attack, they may only choose one of these effects.```
finite egret
brisk flax
#

yeah that was just to make it clear that it's something outside the scope of this project

#

and also to note that, explicitly, "break up your teleport standard move and shoot in between bits of it" is a thing that Strike and Fade supports, though you don't get to double dip with it

finite egret
#

I do like the idea of not breaking up movement a lot. Would have very interesting impacts on the game, especially around cover.
I feel like if you did nail it down to A to B you might need to carve out an exception for like superheavies? Just because they're already pretty inflexible and so you wouldn't want to punish them further 🤔

rose hamlet
#

since the dawn of Lancer, players have wanted to use the Big Gun without any of the drawbacks of using the Big Gun

brisk flax
#

yeah I'm not sure what "carving out an exception for superheavies" means here

#

because they can't move and barrage and then boost?

#

how is that different from any other full action?

finite egret
finite egret
finite egret
brisk flax
#

"I want to do a full action but also have the benefits of not committing to the full action" is a position I am pretty unsympathetic to

finite egret
#

But maybe it's fine? Maybe it's "superheavies are good enough that they can take the asymmetric nerf" 😆

brisk flax
#

I mean it isn't just "superheavy weapons" but "any full action," including non-superheavy barraging, full techs, etc, they aren't being uniquely singled out

finite egret
#

Yeah full techs too I might include? The difference to non-superheavy barrage is that you can just skirmish

brisk flax
#

most people backing a superheavy will also have a mount they can skirmish with

#

"I put myself in a position where all I have to engage with is a superheavy weapon" is the sort of thing that requires some pretty deliberate decision making to get there

finite egret
#

I see plenty of two mounters with superheavies but also that's drawback of two mounts 😆

bold crystal
bitter lava
#

trialling a few of the rebakes today in some combat

#

also my first time trying out the reworked grunts (strikers, specifically)

#

set 'em up as melee rushers

indigo oasis
bold crystal
#

god I wish

indigo oasis
#

Oh it doesn’t

#

Huh

brisk flax
#

the hydra got its superheavy weapon added very late in the game's dev cycle

ancient forge
#

You can get an extra with a core bonus

#

I was planning on adding an extra combat to the upcoming wallflower mission I’m running, might be a chance to work in an operator test since it sounds like it needs more data than others

brisk flax
bold crystal
#

I mean, yeah.

brisk flax
#

"I have only two mounts, I'm going to occupy both of them with a superheavy weapon" that is a you decision

indigo oasis
#

“Let people suffer the consequences of their actions” is a surprisingly hard idea to wrap one’s head around when it comes to RPGs, particularly with… myself. on my players

bold crystal
finite egret
tulip hawk
#

@brisk flax Tagging you since I think it's relevant to prior discussions, we ran Wake The Furies with the rebake, give it a read, hope it's helpful, lmk if you have any questions

#

Oh, I should mention, everyone went in with full structure/stress except the Sherman who had 3 Structure left, and at the end of the combat, 2 characters (Nelson, Raleigh) went from 4 to 0 structure, Tortuga went from 4 to 2, AmberP and Monarch went from 4 to 3 and the Sherman lost 1 Structure (if this helps visualize resource drain or anything)

manic sky
#

damn I gotta use something with an SCL I guess.

brisk flax
#

I think the SCL going off three times in a fight is fine in terms of average values, the bigger issue under a binary recharge system is that it can go off back to back (to back) which makes reacting to it less feasible

#

and also the fact that the CRB version lets you fire it immediately means you can start that train rolling early

#

charges accumulating when the ultra gets damaged IS generous, but in a way where it's like, that's pushing the ultra closer to being removed from the fight

tulip hawk
brisk flax
#

yeah you start with the SCL primed to fire in the fight, narrative stuff isn't game stuff

indigo oasis
# tulip hawk

I will note the Rebake NPC structure table is not meant to be used on Ultras; Ultras are supposed to use the regular table and be able to suffer System Trauma to make Auto-Repair Functions relevant

tulip hawk
#

It's so over

#

Well, he's the only ultra in this entire campaign so I'll have to remember for winter scar haha

smoky bluff
#

Just went through a Playtest with the Rebake NPCs and here's what I got to say

Mission Obj: Extraction
Secondary Obj: Escort box to Obj
Players

  • Sunzi/Atlas Prospector 3 LL6
  • Formodian Lycan/Goblin/Tortuga LL6
  • Autostab OPcal Tachyon Lance Sherman LL6
  • Asura Tokugawa LL6

Opfor
Veteran Archer (Rock and Roll, Flush Out, Fire and Maneuver) [k]
Aegis (Ring of fire, Focused Shielding) [k]
Veteran Pyro (lesser sight, lingering flame, unshielded reactor) [k]
Barricade (Extrudite, Spike Barrier) [k]
2x Veteran Operator [k] (Spec Ops, Deniable Asset)
Engineer (Mobile Turrets) [k]
Berserker (Overdrive Servos, Headhunter)[k]

Player Victory by Turn 4

Slightly overbudget as I have a bad habit of making my pick-up games a little harder. So results are definitely skewed

Feedback

smoky bluff
#

Veteran Archer:

performed fairly well as both striker and Controller, forcing movement on the lycan into the fire of the pyro and dealing the most sustained damage against the lycan as he went to wreck the formation of the aegis, pyro and archer. When the Lycan went loud and exposed itself, it was the Archer that finished the lycan, although that was more of luck on the Archer's part due to the Lycan's tech attacks against it to move it towards it being ineffective. If it wasn't for such bad rolls, the Archer might not have gotten the opportunity to wreck house

Veteran Pyro:

Lycan ran after the Pyro, Pyro had Unshielded Reactor and sort of shot itself in the foot, it could hold the Lycan back with Unshielded reactor to keep it from passing burn checks, but the Lycan reached 2 structure and the Pyro got stressed from overcharge, Flamethrower and Lycan Nuke-cav Power Cores. Lycan was at 7 heat, had thinking tomorrow's thought, rolled a 19 +1 from field analysis from Sherman and the Pyro was never seen again.

Aegis:

Was tokugawa food after the lycan teleported it out of position, ring of fire did affected the mech but they did not last long

Barricade:

Did the most at slowing down the Atlas Player but the atlas player simply prospector enough times to make all his sandcastle efforts worthless. Drag Down was the only thing that greatly forced the atlas player to play slower but thats like trying to stop a race car with nails on the road, it does some damage but that usually never stops it.

Veteran Operator:

They work better as a harrier force when the players are not running towards them due to the amount of space that they can run away to when they boost, since their boost does not teleport them with trace drive. However they feel like they usually have too short of a range against real artillery units that probably still have bad memories of the old Operators and are more than happy to barrage them to kill them on sight. I have trouble trying to get my operators away from safety probably due to this muscle memory as well, teleporting my operators on tall structures and being unable to get down from there as easily as i went up there. A movement optional to solve this issue might be better than the current optional

Berserker:

Went out in a blaze of glory through the fires of the Veteran Pyro, feels just like the vanilla version with some fun optionals like the ram, which was useful at times.

Engineer:

Didn't do anything, was too slow to respond to the fast nature of extraction

#

Currently, I feel like operators problem is that their burst of incredible mobility is only limited to 5 spaces. Which sort of makes the weapons effective range about 12-13 range instead of the bigger 14 range band that would be possible with assaults after they movee