#The NPC Rebake Project and NPC Tinkering Power Zone (NO MULTIATTACKERS ALLOWED)

1 messages · Page 6 of 1

brisk flax
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The thing too is the Goliath rebake isn't faster, but they do have an easier time moving around the map

brisk flax
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I do want to try 2+ versus 3+

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for the auto-reload

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I think it's somewhat fairer for GMs looking at smaller play groups, even though it does count drones as valid for proccing as well (also not a thing you can rely on)

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I'm also more willing to consider Goliaths getting a Sensor range buff back to 10 over something like siege armor

orchid ledge
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both of those sound like good adjustments to me

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next time i run this bombard im going to lean into proccing the triple hit off of my own units to see how badly i can abuse 2+ until my players cry foul

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well

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double hit in this case

brisk flax
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I might also do this

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System
When attacking with the Bombard Cannon, the Bombard may fire a special high-impact shell. On hit, characters are knocked back 2 spaces either directly away from the Bombard or away from the center of the Blast, +1 space for each targeted character beyond the first, up to a maximum of 5 spaces. The Bombard Cannon must then be reloaded before it can be used again (as though it was Loading) unless three or more characters were targeted by this attack. Only one type of special shell can be fired at a time.```
orchid ledge
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sick.

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thats far more enticing

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though with a double hit bonus it sorta kinda shapes up to the same thing haha

brisk flax
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yeah, it's "same as before if you do it with 2, then increasing knockback as it gets higher"

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starting at a base 3 feels questionable for scaling, idk

orchid ledge
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its a fun texture

vale crescent
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Oh that's fun

brisk flax
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The bigger and more specific change I do want to look at is if shifting the auto-reload down to 2+ characters affects the dynamic in a meaningfully positive or negative sense

orchid ledge
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the whole thing with its value changing depending on party size is going to be unavoidable

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on the other hand i played with 5 players last night and i still had a hard time getting 3 people in the same blast template

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so im optimistic about lowering the threshold to 2+

vale crescent
orchid ledge
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they were indeed

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if a party plays poorly after seeing what the bombard cannon does then they deserve to be knocked back 5 spaces

young turtle
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Its just generally more common for two pc to be next to one another than it is for 3 of them to be close

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imo

orchid ledge
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it also makes the solution, player-side, more direct

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and opens up more avenues for solving it

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if the problem is that youre adjacent to two people, then your only option is to just move out of the way

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but if the problem is that youre adjacent to one person then you can move away, you can puppet systems, you can do all sorts of things to widen the gap

rose hamlet
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True to real life: the 2-body problem is easier to solve than the 3-body problem

young turtle
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I think this also means you'll feel less bad using it on drones

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either the bombard's drone or the player's drones

orchid ledge
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(mine, what the fuck is this thing)

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also i think its worth stressing that these effects were uh free before the rebake

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high impact shells literally just happened every time

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so even lowering the target threshold to 2+ is still a nerf (said with approval)

brisk flax
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yeah that's sort of how I'm looking at it

fringe peak
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I guess being able to end turn within obstructions does help a ton

neon blaze
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tbh my take with 2+ targets is that honestly drones aren't a guarantee and typically party sizes are gonna be at the 4-ish range anyway

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so yeah, lowering the threshold makes sense

fringe peak
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Ye, especially with go vastly different the ranges can be on PC mechs it can be hard to get them to clump together with John specter running around

opal folio
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Ran an encounter with: Sentinels, Specters, Operator (Elite), Seeders, Sniper, Scouts. I'll only focus on the bits where the experience differed from running them baseline:

2x Sentinels: These guys kick ass. Making them size 2 and buffing EoM lets them a massive presence on the battlefield. I adore Wrath Lock, it really gives them a tangible 'mode shift' between zipping around the map and then turning into a massive turret with EoM.
2x Specters: I ran 2, and my players only took the counter-invis check once and failed, which I could tell was discouraging for them. Overall these guys were extremely oppressive the whole combat. I'm not sure if this was a mindset thing with my table or if the check is potentially too punishing.
2x Seeders: These guys got dunked on by a Covering Fire Death's Head before doing anything useful. Not much to say
2x Scouts: The shredded change is actually a buff in the sense that you can get multiple attacks off before it expires, but it doesn't reward ignoring lock-on. Expose weakness is tons of fun and lets you fuck with your players in novel ways. Not much else to say about them
Sniper: This guy just ended up sitting in the corner and not taking any shots all game. My poor play as a GM.

brisk flax
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re: the specter, the thing is the CRB specter is just "permanently invisible, period, bring a lotus projector or learn to love the 50% check"

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having any baseline way to get around the invisibility at all is a step up from that

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the check isn't really meant to be a super casual easy way to clear invisibility off them because if it was it would basically make them too easily dealt with

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I'll make a note of this and see if it comes up more, my concern is a quick action check would render it a little too easy to break the invisibility and also devalue actual anti-invis tech, sort of the same way that quick action Improvised Attacks would stack up awkwardly next to a lot of melee weapons

neon blaze
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it might genuinely just be a case of "theres a explicit button here to push so it feels like the correct thing to do is at least try to push the button"

i did agree with the perma-invisible having a way to circumvent it but i wonder if the fact that doing so in an action codified into the NPC itself might be what ends up tripping people up in terms of how much value it has

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i guess to put it another way, "would it actually feel different if players just had a innate remove invisibility as a bad full action in lieu of the NPC offering an explicit remove invisibility as a bad full action"

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it may just be a "tactile" feedback thing in the end

brisk flax
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There's a case to be made for rules acting as a guidepost whether you want them to or not, but the flipside is I can't really make someone be better aware of action tradeoffs and potential points of failure

neon blaze
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right

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this is mainly just me thinking in terms of the framework and player expectations from it which in terms of balancing is kind of moot but is a perspective to keep in mind

opal folio
neon blaze
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i do otherwise agree that reducing from a FA to a QA would definitely skew it too much in the player's favor probably, unless there was some other consideration/conditional component to that

opal folio
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i think the combination of the FA and the failure malus might make it a bit discouraging to attempt

neon blaze
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its not a free get out of jail card after all, its a "press this if you somehow brought no tools to otherwise deal with this"

young turtle
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Yeah that feels like it would be too easy, I def think this is a case of "oh this is OBVIOUSLY the way to counter it, its even spelled out in there"

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I have another proposal here actually

neon blaze
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thats kinda my gut feeling too tbh

brisk flax
young turtle
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If it comes up a bunch, how about actually buffing options you'd otherwise already use against them?
Something like "they take more damage from reliable" or something

brisk flax
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I will say, I do think "two specters" is probably always going to be a tough row to hoe, in a way I'm not sure I think can really be mitigated without a pretty drastic overhaul of the NPC

opal folio
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yeeeeah they were the only strikers in the opfor so i chanced it but even by themselves they can kinda run rampant

brisk flax
# 
Trait
The Specter is permanently Invisible. As a full action, a character can engage in a contested Systems check with the Specter to attempt to disable their cloak; all characters are aware of this. The Specter must be within their Sensors for them to attempt this check. If they succeed, the Specter takes 4 heat and this trait is disabled until the end of their next turn. If they fail, that character gains Lock On, and the next character to attempt this check gains +1 Accuracy on the attempt until it succeeds. This Accuracy can be gained multiple times, and stacks.``` I might try something like this
neon blaze
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hmmn

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on paper it seems fine but i'm also worried about it becoming a weird spiral game

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seeing it explicitly encourages someone else to sink that full action to try and do the same because they have a bonus to it

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which can then be counterceded by using Impaired and stuff and what not and suddenly its a minigame in of itself - "how many full actions can this one NPC eat"

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just the immediate potential of moving pieces has me unsure about it

opal folio
neon blaze
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the problem is more so what do players do if they don't bring anti-invis tools, somehow

young turtle
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Which would switch it to "oh obviously the counter to this is to use what's in the statblock itself" to "oh this is the counter to it and i'm encouraged to have one in there".

Its not too different from how CRB Bombards don't have armor but the only way to deal with them in an actual timely manner is to get in close, even if you just have low speed.
I get that invisibility is a different case, but i think there's something worth saying here that maybe the problem isn't exactly "what do you do if you have no options" because imo this is kinda broadly true of a lot of other npcs already

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Like high armor if you don't have AP or shred

neon blaze
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honestly, ticking a bit on it

young turtle
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But Invisible is a lot more all or nothing

neon blaze
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that does make me think about how a lot of NPC Resistance traits are typically conditional

armor is def harder to play around but also is kind of a lot more compressed in terms of how much presence it can actually have

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and a heavy mount can still punch through 4 armor, in the end. i guess the same argument can be made that a battery of Aux mounts can chew through Invisible given time but its much more a game of chance

young turtle
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I think the problem with the trait is that by virtue of wanting to keep other options competitive, the full action you're given by it kinda has to "suck" in a "its less optimal than other stuff" way

neon blaze
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which is just harder to account for i suppose

young turtle
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Its hard to make something that's less strong than a dedicated option but have it still be "useful"

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This is a dumb idea and maybe this would make stuff too strong but what if aux weapons ignored the Specter Invisibility?

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Something like that

neon blaze
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the more i think on it the more that maybe the bespoke full action just feels a bit like a trap and the problem is more the "perma-" component of the Invisible

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and maybe it does need to just be pseudo-conditional like much of the resistance traits

young turtle
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Like a conditional invisibility

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yeah

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same thought lmao

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Actually my mind is going to the Scourer now

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and how it clears heat if it doesn't move

neon blaze
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Dataveil is also permanent but frankly hasn't ever been as problematic because on the Mirage itself its more so a nuisance seeing it isn't anywhere near as offensively leaning, and if it grants it to another ally then the conditional is "blow up the Mirage"

brisk flax
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I think ultimately, "this NPC is permanently invisible" is the Specter's thing and moving it away from that is more reinvention than I really care to give it

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Most other cases of "I took this defense away from an NPC/made it more conditional/lessened it in some capacity" is because that was ancillary to the NPCs purpose, like removing Siege Armor from the Goliath

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but the Specter is "the Invisible NPC that is Invisible"

neon blaze
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unrelatedly related but god i love Dataveil demolishers

neon blaze
indigo oasis
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It’s something that exists in the current version too, but here the accuracy stacking may make it feel like the “investment” was wasted

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This is me speaking in Hypotheticals tho

opal folio
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yeah i don't love the stacking acc thing but it might be the best solution given the nature of the npc? The problem is that the most readily accessible way to make someone fail a check (fragsig) itself relies on an attack getting through invis

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although now it occurs to me that the lycan player never bothered hitting the specter with the free impair they get, so again, poor play is definitely a part of this

brisk flax
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(it's a contested check)

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(you don't have to impair the specter, you can just buff the person attempting the check)

indigo oasis
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Bolster really does get some love in these rebakes huh

rose hamlet
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It’s accounted for in their stat block, and players just have to roll with it

brisk flax
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yeah, and lancer does basically have a number of tools for addressing invisibility, reliable damage, save-or stuff, and actual anti-invis tech

rose hamlet
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Yeah so as long as the Invis is accounted for in the stat line, I think it’s fine

plucky patrol
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and even just brute forcing through it isn't all that different from say resistance

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mathematically at least

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though for me the most 'problematic' part of specter's invis has always been the incredibly easy access to Hiding

young turtle
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I think the only problem with this comes from the fact that if a Specter gets more health it can get difficult

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imo

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Through structures I mean

plucky patrol
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personally I would want to see some extra counterplay to hidden added in any future changes to the rebake, even if only letting people attempt to turn off the cloak even if the specter is hidden

young turtle
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But the fact it has invisibility imo is just kinda a fact of life anyway, it sucks but its also a part of the game and you have options to deal with it, as much as I sympathize with giving an action to deal with it that's not as good as having reliable or save stuff, I'd worry it would give people the wrong idea more than it would give them an option

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Damn I need to test these npcs lmao I can't just wait

indigo oasis
brisk flax
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I mean among other things, hiding IS already a quick action, prowl doesn't do anything for the specter it can't already do

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all you're really getting out of prowl is a boost/disengage equivalent on a quick action

rose hamlet
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Prowl is just action compression for specter really, it’s fine imo

neon blaze
blissful lion
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What if you can try and search for the spectre as a QA or FA, but the QA has difficulty and consequence for failing, whereas the FA is less risky and easier?

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Or maybe you need to be very close to use the quick action search

trail pivot
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when i tackled specter alternative (iirc) i tied the invisibility to something positional, i think

rose hamlet
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"Invisible to hostile characters outside Range 3" is something I've thought about for invis stuff

blissful lion
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Cataphract style would make sense for the spectre who wants to attack solo characters. If there are two characters equal distance then the invis flickers or breaks?

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Or maybe just 2 characters within range 3

opal folio
rose hamlet
blissful lion
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would be spooky if they were always invisible and you never saw them until they stabbed you right in the mecha-guts

brisk flax
rose hamlet
brisk flax
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The problem is prowl becomes a much less useful escape tool when walking next to someone makes them no longer invisible which then makes them no longer hidden

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like moreso than anything else, "walk up next to the specter and auto-unhide them from you" is pretty much a massive nail in their coffin

vale crescent
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There's only so much patching you can do to an invisible striker before they turn from a force to be reckoned with to tissue paper

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Any form of anti invisibility option, including reliable, grenades, etc should be better then the default option

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Being within range 3 removes the specters defensive option IMO sounds better than swallowtail drones in a lot of situations

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Well, depending on who's asking, a striker or artillery

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But from experience strikers within range 3 seem to be the relatively common

simple juniper
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maybe that's the approach
make it actual tissue paper
designed to wipe the floors

WIPE THE FLOOR
Trait
Quick Action, Recharge 5+
The Specter chooses a point within Sensors and LOS.
A burst 1 area emerges from that point, that removes all other AoE effects, difficult terrain and hazardous terrain.
If any trait or system would create a new AoE effect, difficult terrain, or hazardous terrain in an area that was cleaned with this trait, the originator must make a Systems check. On a success, the effect takes places and the Specter takes 20 AP damage out of sheer frustration, as it complains about these damn kids sullying'em fine floors.
vale crescent
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Fucking double structures itself because it got pissed

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I could see the full action remove invisible from specter losing the on fail gain lock on, it feels enough like a failure state if you spent a full action and nothingg happens imo. But otherwise from a glance and having never ran a rebaked specter it looks fine, better than before

indigo oasis
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I do wish there were one or two more “bonus razor swarm” Hive Rebake features (not a critique) (or a request) (the base options are enough) (thought into the void) (note to homebrew it myself)

fathom root
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simply have more hive opfor shall be my solution

indigo oasis
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Yeah I get that, the rebake design notes just made me realize that making different razor swarms rather than more is genius and I’m thinking about how to get weird with it

vale crescent
indigo oasis
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But for a basic NPC? 2 optionals is enough- deploy more if you want more

indigo oasis
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Alternative Razor Swarm Deployments, just like Harrier Maniple or the Aura of Burn

vale crescent
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So a not a razor swarm drone adjacent thing

indigo oasis
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This is definitely some divergence from the rebake tangent kinda thing tbh

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Like “hey I wanna give this Hive a Bespoke Razor Swarm”

last blade
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hello, just wanted to point out some minor errors I noticed in the current master doc:

  • above the goliath's stat block, it's listed as a bastion
  • the sniper's sharpshooter optional has a repeated 'must' in its target hardpoints option ("must must pass")
  • the witch's stat block has its size listed as "1-1/2" instead of "1/2-1"
  • ultra's greater sight has a missing 'and' ("gains Lock On [and] becomes Impaired")
young turtle
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I think it makes sense for the hive to only have one swarm

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tbh

indigo oasis
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Again I’m not disagreeing with that, I’m just paraphrasing the design doc notes

young turtle
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Right now the biggest hurdle to having more than one hive on the board is that it sucks to figure out which swarm belongs to which hive

indigo oasis
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Harrier Maniple and Solipsis Swarm are described as “additional razor swarms” in the design notes- I think that’s a clever approach and was musing on ways to do more of that

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Which should not be in the rebake, but would be a fun bespoke Ultra feature in a home game or smthn

rose hamlet
keen topaz
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i could just be being dense and missing something, but what is the point of auto repair functions on ultras if the new structure/stress system doesnt allow for NPCs to have their weapons/systems destroyed? or is that still in place you want to use the rebake without the new table

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i also wonder if ive missed something that excludes ultras from weapon destruction, as ive only been skimming the pdf so far

fringe peak
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Ultras don't use the new tables

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It says so on the tables

keen topaz
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ah yep, my bad

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thank you

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otherwise just wanna show my support. loving the ultra stuff, i mostly asked that question because auto-repair and juggernaut are great gameplay-story integration for how i flavor ultras in my campaign so i didnt want to accidentally not get to use it

brisk flax
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"you have one swarm, you can move it around the board as a protocol and/or quick action, any other coverage you want to do needs to come as a result of good positioning and using other abilities" is the idea

fringe peak
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also real talk, i've always found hives tech attacks and nexus so much mroe itneresting

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it's one of the few smart/seeking weapons on an npc and it makes very specfiic

young turtle
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Nah the swarm is good personally i think its criminally easy to not use them well

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I've rarely seen people use the swarms to make spots to hide in for other npcs

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But then again people underestimate Hide

indigo oasis
brisk flax
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The swarm is obviously an integral component of the hive and one of its more distinguishing features, but that's sort of why I think it should be pared down to one per hive

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"you need to be more thoughtful and tactical with how you use this"

fringe peak
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ye, i don't see it bad or anything of course, but the swamr to me is always more interesting when it's used on conjuction with the complex movement controlling tools hive has

trim field
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Not serious feedback, but I realized something interesting to me.

I used rebake's version of the seeder mine to block the shortest route into a control zone.
If it's an original seeder mine (invisible, but only detonates when stepped on directly), based on my players' personalities, I'm 70% sure they'll "just run in and bet their luck they won't step on it", with a 20% chance they'll "just run in and forget there's a mine in there at all".

However, since I deploy visible mine this time, the player's behavior became much more conservative than I expected.

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I think the rebake version of seeder would be much more effective on my desk than the original in terms of area denial.

rose hamlet
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Regular mines also cover bigger ground, so it’s easier to play the odds you avoid the one space with a boomboom

opal folio
full tide
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really loving the NPC Rebakes so far, but a bit of a thing that's probably been brought up before: is it possible to put the unique veteran talents on the NPC pages themselves? feels awkward to look at one and get a vibe and have to go to a completely different thing to see a feature.

brisk flax
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Given that Veteran is an optional template, I think that layoutwise it would be significantly more confusing to do it that way, and at odds with how Lancer handles templates

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so I won't be doing that, sorry

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For a version of lancer that handled NPC/template integration differently that wouldn't necessarily be a bad layout decision to bake stuff into the classes directly, but given what actually exists and how it operates, I'm going to stick with the default layout parameters

blissful lion
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Would be interesting if there was an optional for the hive's drone barrage that had to do with hitting their allies with it, which is probably how I try to use it 50% of the time.

full tide
fickle ruin
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this project is cool!!

sorry if thas been brought up before, but has anyone talked abt the operator's hase here? i noticed it wasnt changed in the 1.0 doc and ive always thought it was a bit silly-lookin

bold crystal
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it's slightly tweaked from the official

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-1 HP at tier 3, -1 heat all tiers, +1 ST all tiers

fierce night
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Fix and flank says its an overwatch attack. But Overwatch attacks by my rememberings are specifically based on a weapons threat range - the teeming of the ability makes me think that's not the intent and it should be the assault rifles normal range?

bold crystal
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it's overwatch's trigger that limits it to threat range.

fierce night
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Ah ok

fickle ruin
bold crystal
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actually not unique to it - the assault and sentinel also have that, if not as extreme.

last blade
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hmm, is there a particular reason why the rebaked (wolf)hound missiles have immunity to immobilised but not slowed?

ebon trenchBOT
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Probably because slowed doesnt even really do anything to them

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They just move

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They dont boost or anything

last blade
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does it not? did find some talk in the rules channel about how it would stop it from moving, since the missile doesn't technically have a standard move

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(which links back up to the technicality of how puppet systems wouldn't work on it)

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oh wait I'm mistaken, the rebake version clarifies it's a "standard move"

valid plaza
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yeah the language on that used to be annoyingly fuzzy

last blade
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nice to clarify that, then

blissful lion
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The missile moves involuntarily, so the conditions don’t have an effect. But I’m not sure how rhe rebake does it

last blade
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the rebake specifies "the missile makes its own standard move", which would mean slowed doesn't work on it but immobilised could (hence the immunity)

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though, the wolfhound's movement in response to a failed player attempt to move it, happening off-turn, might be affected by slowed?

blissful lion
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Yeah

trail pivot
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its why i just made mine immune to conditions

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most of them dont matter anyway,

last blade
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yea, fair

brisk flax
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Technically this does mean the wolfhound has a use-case for being slowed, as it has off-turn movement

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I've not yet gotten sufficient feedback on the matter to determine if I should leave it that way or no

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It could make the wolfhound too easy to negate, given everyone has access to fragment signal

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Immunity to Conditions Period would cover a lot of use cases but I don't know that I want to block off, say, people using Lock On on them

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Immunity to Slowed and Immobilized might be the most straightforward

ebon trenchBOT
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Could just say all conditions other than lockon in that case

brisk flax
last blade
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would like to try it out soon though

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on another note, is it intended that a jammed engineer could take their turn, clear the condition at the end of their turn, and then have their turrets fire?

rose hamlet
brisk flax
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Yeah otherwise that clause would be pretty pointless

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I'm not sure there's a better wording to cover "conditions of potentially variable durations" along with "you can't declare these at the end of your turn even if there's a hostile inhibiting condition which clears just ahead of it"

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The Balor's Regeneration trait has a similar sort of clause

rose hamlet
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This is very much a system issue tbf. “Can Raleigh fire the Mjolnir after Jammed wears off” is something that comes up in #rules-questions too iirc

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Or ordering of rolling to clear Burn vs end of turn Condition/effect clear

plucky patrol
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I think in general the sanest interpretation of the rules is effects with "end of x turn" durations fall off after characters get priority at their end of turn step

rose hamlet
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I’d say in general “conditions clear after everything else is done”

last blade
brisk flax
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Normally stuff like that tends to be fine, and especially when it comes to "impaired and burn" that answer has always been "both are probably hostile effects, so the GM can decide what order to do it in"

plucky patrol
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"beginning of the end step" vs "cleanup phase" to fully borrow terminology from MtG

brisk flax
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that particular interaction being a point of confusion has always been a little weird to me

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other stuff (jammed vs. mjolnir) is more understandable

rose hamlet
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(I guess not Jammed vs mjolnir because Raleigh shielded magazines but the end-of-turn attack issue still stands for stuff like Autogun)

plucky patrol
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Also unrelated, but firing a mjolnir while jammed is a very ironic --

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Yeah lol

rose hamlet
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It’s late, I’m tired, y’all got the gist

plucky patrol
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The other popular Raleigh end of turn shenanigan

brisk flax
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you could of course make an argument that the operator could have a lower hull score and higher agility etc, but I think it's basically meant to be a deliberate implementation of "this NPC is generally good versus saves in general"

bold crystal
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the operator is the number one 'kinda good at everything defensively' npc - good saves, good speed, good evade/edef... not so good on health, but.

plucky robin
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Just don't get hit, easy!

simple juniper
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How I was convinced that One Swarm Per Hive Is A Good Idea:

I once had an OPFOR with 8 Grunt Hives. I had only 2-3 in the field at any time, and played them like sneaky fucking bastards.

I had REALLY GOOD RECHARGE ROLLS.

My players HATED it (too much swarm!!!)
I, myself, HATED it (who owns which swarm?!?!)
Even the opfor itself HATED IT (stop hiding so much we need to deploy non-grunts ffs)

spice aspen
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is feedback/input desired here, or nah? I ask cause one of my GMs announced they were gonna start trying out the rebakes going forwards (replacing some of the combats in dustgrave, which we're playing through) and I wasn't sure if it'd be helpful of me to share experiences as I went, but I also didn't wanna be overbearing or pushy or anything

rose hamlet
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like, folks are openly sharing feedback if you scroll up haha

subtle nacelle
spice aspen
brisk flax
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Pretty much the one thing I ask is "please do not be weird about it"

subtle nacelle
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Kai, is the master doc only available here in the pins? No g-drive?

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making sure i have the latest version is all (feb 26)

spice aspen
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I like to think I'm not weird about things at least! I'll certainly try my best. we'll be probably using these rebakes for this whole mission so I'll take notes on the enemy comps and how playing them goes -- maybe poke the GM herself too after the combats and ask for her own thoughts too

rose hamlet
#

looking forward to how the Rebakes play with Dustgrave!

spice aspen
#

me too. first time through the module so it'll all be new to me but I imagine for folks who have seen it play out a lot of specific ways, it could be helpful to compare to

#

oh- we do have someone using a third-party frame, from ilean modern industrial. if that means that the feedback wouldn't be super useful here that's comfy with me

indigo oasis
subtle nacelle
#

I keep meaning to make a cheatsheet regarding Mina's colors.. I just don't know right now. But it's not marked as a Trait?

rose hamlet
# 
    "tech_type": "Full",
#

that's what you need to make something look like a tech

subtle nacelle
#

So based on this, colors don't care about system vs trait, but they do care about QA vs Quick Tech and FA vs Full Tech

rose hamlet
#

CompCon and Foundry don't follow Mina's current approach

#

so Mina's approach is best used for the PDFs, but compcon/foundry need a different touch

indigo oasis
#

Techs are still different colors regardless of use case tho

subtle nacelle
#

right, which means Coercive Force is a Full Tech System, not a trait. I'll make sure it has the right bells and whistles for tech info

#

referencing mina's colors for when i read the master doc

indigo oasis
#

It is ultimately a minor thing lol, but thank you <3

brisk flax
subtle nacelle
#

working on this goliath feature and im ready to release the grunt fixes valk made last week

brisk flax
#

if you think the PC stuff might influence things you can just say how and why

spice aspen
#

alrighty. good to know

#

it's a pretty bog-standard big artillery frame insofar as typical output and unique gimmicks though; its turns should largely be what you'd expect from someone packing a CPR and an autoloader

#

I'll mention if it ends up causing specific noteworthy things though

brittle cipher
#

Alright, OSRebake party has finished Leviathan and I've got some feedback!

Sniper: As mentioned last week, big fan of the changes. PCs were respectful of snipers mark and moving target, but I didn't feel like it was overly oppressive (like old MT) or underwhelming. Good stuff.

Scourer: Nothing to say here, he didn't get to do much. Got CC'd and missed some attacks, then died.

Scout: Rifle Shred being EoNT meant I didn't have to feel like I was sandbagging by consuming lockons, Orbital Strike made a good tool to force people to move in the face of MT Sniper + Drag Down.

Hornet: Didn't get to do a whole bunch, he spent a good chunk of the fight being extremely respectful of the chomolungma player. Impale systems felt good, landed it on the sharanga/howitzer everest and delayed the demise of my other units. Unfortunately the hornet had to get within LoS/Sensors of the chomolungma to do that. RIP my boy frfr (eject power cores -> system crusher -> i fail the burn check). I love hornets so much.

image.png
#

Pyro: Pyro [K] continues to feel pretty damn good. This one had lingering flames + explosive jet, and lingering flames was very fun to work with. He landed one flamethrower shot before losing it to a structure, but still mattered despite not having any weapons. Range 3 firebreak meant I could position the wall a lot more effectively to cover allies, as well as resulting in one of the funnier "i have no gun and I must dps" situations I've played before - Grappling players and dragging them into Lingering Flames, dropping the grapple and prepping a ram, then slamming Firebreak directly behind them.

Barricade: Drag down as base kit was such a good call - lets it put those sensors to work. Graviton Lance remains a good harassment tool. Spike Barrier was pretty solid, it let the cube be more than just a roadblock, though I did find it somewhat inconvenient to work around myself - there were a couple instances where the damage/engage got in my own way. On the subject of the cube, 1 cube at a time on a QA is really fun - the positioning is a lot more flexible, resulting in some fun plays such as dropping a cube behind itself to prevent getting puppet systems'd into lingering flames, then on its next turn redeploying that cube elsewhere. The size increase felt good as well, and resulted in a very fun exchange with the sagarmatha player grappling/ramming each other into Lingering Flames and strategically positioned Firebreaks.

subtle nacelle
#

https://github.com/Shteb/Kais-NPC-Rebake-LCP/releases/tag/1.16.0
⚠️ BREAKING CHANGE for Grunts!! ⚠️
Best to remake them from scratch as certain features were deleted and stats were moved around significantly.
Also, I'd like to thank @rose hamlet for all their work for this release!

GitHub
Release 1.16.0 - Grunt stats reworked! · Shteb/Kais-NPC-Rebake-LCP

What's Changed

fix(Bastion): correct save target by @msprijatelj in #61
feat(demolisher): remove redundant text from drag cables, fix breaks by @msprijatelj in #63
fix(Veteran): fix Commando f...

subtle nacelle
#

I think that's like.. 99.999% of the rebake done. I wanna do the deployables LCP now as an optional addition. Right now the one included in the releases has the engi turret i believe.

fringe peak
#

@brisk flax
Shadow of the wolf spoilers for combat 1

||
Players: Lll5

  • Annihlation nexus heca
  • Gilgamesh with spear charges, walking amroury and engineer (all arrounder)
  • Gorgon defender
  • Black witch support/controller with orator
  • Monarch with gandiva

enemies:
Elite veteran golliath
Elite Veteran Assasin
2 horents
1 assasin
1 mirage

So the new mirage mulitplicty starting off feels so much better. As it's more reactive on behalf the part of the players, same with umbral interdiction (it is a little sad it gets shut off by superior however.

Goliath got to really shine as once it got to the point it spent most turns combining opression, mag guauntlet and power knuckle to just knock people around keep them off the point. it was durable but not to the point where it felt like bs.
Assassin with shroud projector felt amazing, on both ends because the players often were able to use shround projector against the assasins team mates in ways to avoid gettng crush targets or mag gauntleted.

The hornets did thier job, locked down key targets as they came in around the flank with lock hold havelins. Spinning kick also felt really nice and so did the knives. Allowing the assasins to use thier assasins' marks defensively in order to resist damage and lay down serious hurt. The players were ultimately able to punish overcharges with the enemies heat caps and stress them, which eld to a powerful shot from the nuc cav gorgon. All in all The players had alot of fun and enemies that would normally feel super bs felt just fine to fight against. It has the sasquatch seal of approval... well there is one slight thing.

it did feel like the goliath really needs a way toe ither incenvtice people to come to it's optimum range. Cause it gets pounded down by artillery fast sinc they can sit well outside it's optimum range. It's definitly a weakness of the frame tbf, but it does feel the goliath really needs to be in a situation where the enemies have to come to it to be effective||

brisk flax
#

Outside of that, I think that artillery being a Goliath weak point is probably "okay" for the moment

#

I want to try the sensor boost and see if that meaningfully changes things, if not I'll look at it some more

fringe peak
brisk flax
#

From a certain perspective, "the Goliath is drawing all the artillery fire" is itself a form of aggro

brisk flax
#

And of course, thank you for the feedback

brisk flax
# brittle cipher Pyro: Pyro [K] continues to feel pretty damn good. This one had lingering flames...

same here, thanks for everything, I'm glad to hear it was largely successful. On the subject of Spike Barrier, there ARE some things like that in the rebake NPCs, things which aren't ally-friendly, and this can be exploited by players. The Pyro has some stuff like this, and there are other elements as well. If one of these ends up proving to be too detrimental to really be of use, be sure to let me know

indigo oasis
#

God I can't wait to use my Command Override Holdout Hives with a Support, it will be such a cruel (positive) combo

brisk flax
#

Fun with an engineer too

#

Hello, my name is Bob Ultra Hive, and this is my son the Wolfhound Missile

indigo oasis
#

That sounds like such a PoS sitrep (affectionate)- just every possible NPC with a drone and an Ultra hive with Command Override

brisk flax
#

there's a reason command override is on a recharge 5+

indigo oasis
#

I was extremely tempted to pair it with Phase-Shift generator from Horror to just be cruel and unusual but decided not to

fringe peak
#

I'll be doing the next sitrep of

  • sentinels
  • veteran elite sniper.
  • Veteran barricade
  • commander support
  • veteran Cataphract
#

Also this is an aside..I'm not a huge fan of Lassi in general

fluid zodiac
#

Having put out the +2HP operators now a couple times, I can say that it increases their odds of getting away successfully a little bit. The team has two 5 speed players who were able to just run it down and swat it though.

#

In hindsight, I think it just requires a different kind of movement/attack pattern than I'm used to with NPCs where you've gotta use some form of movement to get into position first, skirmish, then fall back

#

And decide if you're gonna boost/skirm/move or move/skirm/boost depending on which side of strike and fade you want

#

(this only occured to me in hindsight)

indigo oasis
rose hamlet
#

Guessing they meant Lasso

simple juniper
#

Or the plural of "Lassus", which in Latin means "tired, languid".
Which you know, fair, some people are not big fans of languid OPFORs

brisk flax
fluid zodiac
#

It still feels better with the marginal HP bump though. Keeps it from getting instantly obliterated a except for by some spicy highrolls

brisk flax
#

Yeah I think I'll probably keep that, it feels like a reasonable application given the range reduction

feral oracle
#

I'm still reading through it but I wanna share that I love reading your notes and thought processes for each NPC rebake, Kai. This is the kind of stuff that really makes it easy to understand the intentions of those changes. 🙂

#

I feel like those notes also serve pretty well for newbies on how to use a NPC.

brisk flax
#

That's definitely an element of it yeah

errant needle
#

So I've shown the adjusted NPC structure tables in three separate spaces, with nothing other than the section explaining why the decision was made, and pretty much universally have gotten the responses of "Yeah, that makes a lot of sense" and "why do we have System Trauma?", completely isolated from the rest of the Rebake project. I think that one was a solid hit out of the park. 😄 I am meanwhile devouring these meaty design notes. Definitely glad to have those as it's useful for both how to use the rebaked NPCs, and also to know why they're engineered the way they are if a GM chooses to modify them further.

brisk flax
#

System Trauma is one of those things that sounds amazing in the abstract, and then all the actual practical outcomes of it suck shit

errant needle
#

It's, I think, a kind of "video-gamey" aspect that I've noticed across a few TTRPGs. Namely, setting up a broken build with no real counterplay is fine in a video game because the game is, fundamentally, kind of a puzzle to be solved. Whereas in a TTRPG, the GM has to be on the other side as an actual person dealing with the absolute misery of having that inflicted on them. Hence "what if you could blow a mech's weapon off?" is a cool fantasy, but only if you don't aren't thinking of what it's like for the GM that's running said NPCs.

feral oracle
errant needle
#

And it's just as miserable for players when it happens to them, so nobody likes it. 😄

brisk flax
#

Even on the flipside, System Trauma doesn't really do a lot of interest for players, it's basically "does my build care about losing the gun, if so then take Armament Redundancy, if not then whatever"

errant needle
#

Yeah, like you said, if you're willing to take a SP tax to avoid dealing with a mechanic, it's probably a bad mechanic

blissful lion
#

I think the fantasy is good and can be fun during the game, but the fact that its a random occurrence doesn't let it have a lot of dramatic weight or decision making behind it.

brisk flax
#

There are ways and means to make locational damage more of an interesting factor, Battletech for example has a combat system that's built around things like taking damage to different segments, losing guns, etc, and it's a cornerstone of combat, but lancer just isn't really built to explore it in any interesting fashion, and NPCs are even less designed for it

errant needle
#

By contrast, Invisibility is sort of a SP or even deeper investment to negate it still makes that a determined tactical consideration

#

you know a mech that's invisible forces the 50/50 if you don't have something to counter it

#

so that's "do I feel lucky with my coinflips, or do I take something (which often has other tactical benefits) to not have to?"

#

Rather than Armament Redundancy either being critical or, well, redundant

vale crescent
#

I like system trauma. As a player and a GM

#

Gm I understand the use of an alternate table for it. As a player I like it. It adds unreliability that players need to think about and an extra tax for attrition with repair cap

#

It means a player has risk that they need to build additional build plans for the risk that their one trick they pull every turn can be pulled from them. Then later risk during repairs: do I repair this system so if I structure again I have redundancy at the cost of 1 Repair... or do I risk not repairing it yet risk a part of my build failing me

brisk flax
#

the additional plan is "pay 1 SP for Armament Redundancy" or "I have three mounts so I don't care," is the thing

#

like you could just cut out the middleman and have System Trauma be "lose 1 Repair" if the point of it is to be a attritional cost

#

I think lancer's attritional structure already forces a pretty good set of costs in regards to the decision to shore up structure or stress, having a random additional cost pop up on top of that is something I very much don't care for because it's essentially a punitive cost that arises wholly divorced of any tactical decision or consequence

#

if a Witch blows my reactor out because I decided to play fast and loose with overcharging, okay cool, that's on me. If I get chunked because I thought I could be god's specialest Blackbeard and solo the Assassin only to catch a Devil's Cough Shotgun in the face, that is again on me, I pushed the button, I decided to take those chances

#

"because of this random table roll you now might have to pay an extra repair during downtime (or two if you're an aux weapon user, get fucked)" is not a good example of meaningful, robust consequences that tie to active decisions, and if I'm being perfectly honest, if I was in charge of some hypothetical lancer revised edition, I would yank system trauma out wholesale on both sides of the screen and never look back

#

4E D&D didn't have rules for disarming/weapon sundering for a reason

subtle nacelle
#

quick question, are engi's turrets supposed to have a heatcap?

rose hamlet
#

Maybe it’s because I played a support, but I liked the choice I had to make for System trauma when picking systems to destroy? In any case I get why folks don’t like it. But for me, it’s the only reason I don’t completely throw Structure damage tables out the window

rose hamlet
brisk flax
#

("them" being engineer turrets specifically)

subtle nacelle
#

perfect. i've already made some new issues regarding our turret lcp. thank you plenty

brisk flax
#

it probably does suck to have a very important system get dinged but every support in lancer out of the box is capable of packing a Smartgun or a Nailgun or some other reasonably punchy main weapon and pivoting into a different role, while weapon focused builds are much more centralizing (you have significant core bonus and talent investment going into them, etc)

#

if my build is focused around being a tempest charged blade dealer of death, then odds are I do not have a backup pivot point to the same degree if that weapon suddenly goes away

rose hamlet
#

That’s valid; lancer has an obscene amount of all-eggs-in-basket specialization

brisk flax
#

of course then you have mechs with three mounts where you can go "well I will employ my sacrifical assault rifle to take the blow for me" which sort of loops me back to "the two consequences of System Trauma largely boil down to I Take Armament Redundancy or I Don't Care Actually"

#

I would also argue (because I love arguing) that the in-fight consequences of System Trauma existing alongside the attritional consequences are an example of something crossing the streams in an unnecessary way

bold crystal
#

and it's much easier to have backup systems than backup weapons, in general - you can always sacrifice the personalizations, if you gotta.

brisk flax
#

if the idea is "system trauma creates interesting tactical wrinkles in the moment" (I don't think this but for the sake of argument) then the repair cost to fix the broken kit is unnecessary

bold crystal
#

(though that's another... problem system, really)

brisk flax
#

if the idea is that the attritional cost is the interesting part, then you could just make it "lose 1 repair" and be done with it

#

mushing the two together into a single result isn't good imo

rose hamlet
#

That’s fair too; “leave all repairs to fixing structure” is a valid take

brisk flax
#

If lancer formally played more with things like "gaining resources during a mission" then maybe I could see the argument for something like gear breakage being a factor, but it doesn't and repairs are already a thing that a lot of players find themselves running low on earlier than they expect

rose hamlet
#

Yeah, absolutely. I’ve started eyeing house rules to make repairs a little more forgiving/give more repairs baseline

opal folio
#

yeah i've been moving towards thinking of repairs as a resource that players can stake inbetween combats as well as something they can regain.

rose hamlet
#

Because like, 2-3 repairs baseline is criminal. The one pc class in 4e that had 2 baseline healing surges was the universally-panned Vampire

opal folio
#

if i ever move into act 2 of wallflower i think i'll have another level of abstraction and have like, a 'materiel' clock that they can burn for mid-mission repair regain or something

rose hamlet
#

Everyone else got at least like, 4

rose hamlet
brisk flax
#

that is to say, the GM could much more readily just go "yeah okay, we'll call this a day here" without necessarily interrupting the flow of what was essentially a contiguous narrative arc the way a Mission is typically framed as

#

which, to be clear, I actually do think that's a bit of an issue

#

"when do we full rest/repair" imo needs to be a decision that carries some weight to it or else it becomes "well why aren't we just doing this after every fight?"

plucky robin
#

It's also one that's harder to just go 'Oh sure, we'll do this' in-universe if the PCs are having a bad time.

#

Repair Bays don't tend to just spring out of the aether

brisk flax
#

lancer typically stating that missions carry significant narrative consequences, though it's admittedly more tacit than a formalized framework, is better for addressing why you need to engage in the attritional structure

indigo oasis
#

I feel like if there was more input from the aggressor when it comes to System Trauma, it'd be more interesting imo- just as a vibes based thing

opal folio
indigo oasis
#

Probably not that that

opal folio
#

i get the idea but that seems like it would make the problem worse tbh

indigo oasis
#

Yeah you right

opal folio
#

like i as the GM would definitely prefer to destroy the HMG asuraverest's weapon over the system

surreal zenith
indigo oasis
#

You right

brisk flax
indigo oasis
#

Yeaaah point rescinded

brisk flax
#

and I would say the fact that the system has to take pains to make that not happen is more evidence for it not being great in the first place

#

because yeah people love "called shot" type systems in games too, BUUUUT

indigo oasis
#

Idk, for my group System Trauma has rarely been un-impactful- in a Long Rim setting, a tax for a flight system is already being paid, and one of our DPS is a superheavy artillery build who only has so much trauma cushioning, while our Swallowtail has exclusively critical systems equipped. So each system trauma is a genuinely meaningful decision 80% of the time.

brisk flax
#

a lot of games with those end up with the "headshot problem"

surreal zenith
#

"we had a tool for that it's called Crack Shot"

young turtle
#

I like system trauma for one reason: I think its a bit funny when players have a VIP in their expanded compartment and that gets destroyed so they need someone else to carry the VIP

brisk flax
#

I also think it's worth noting, and I don't say this in a "your personal experiences are wrong" sense, that a thing can be impactful in ways that are both good and bad

young turtle
#

My serious take on system trauma is that I actually think it would be fine if mechs had more SP overall

brisk flax
#

"you end up losing more repair" IS impactful as an outcome, but I do not value it as a good form of outcome

young turtle
#

But that's an important part of mech balance

indigo oasis
#

Losing 1 repair and becoming Jammed for a turn could be an interesting replacement for System Trauma

brisk flax
#

I mean

plucky robin
#

Ponderings how to tinker with systems and traits that directly interact with System Trauma, in a world where system trauma is gone

brisk flax
#

at the risk of self-aggrandizing, there's a reason the alternate structure table in this document is just "system trauma is now jammed EoNT"

indigo oasis
brisk flax
#

the interesting bit of system trauma is "your game plan temporarily has to change" and that is functionally what Jammed does

young turtle
#

When it comes to player mechs, I think System Traum is kinda stuck in this weird spot where it both needs to be a choice on the player's part on what gets destroyed, and that this makes it easy to either "game" it and not care for it much beyond repairs, but making it truly random (as in, players don't get a choice) would really be hard to figure out and I think would feel pretty bad

indigo oasis
#

"System Trauma" is a good bit more permanent than Jammed to be fair

brisk flax
opal folio
#

or, idk, you can temporarily jury-rig broken systems with a Stabilize, but you then have to pay the repair afterwards to make them combat-effective again

brisk flax
#

I don't think lancer combats last long enough for the permanence to earn its keep, and I dislike the attritional tax levied on it

young turtle
#

In the abstract its one of those things that I think would be cool if it actually did encourage/promote people to think about it meaningfully in their options they've taken and have plans in case they don't get to do something, but in practice that's basically never the actual result of System Trauma

rose hamlet
#

At the risk of my own self-aggrandizement, I wanna test my new approach to structure damage more where the victim needs to pick between Bracedownside and system trauma

brisk flax
#

I think "getting jammed for a round" is going to cover a significant fraction of a fight on its own

indigo oasis
young turtle
#

I think jammed is a good fix but part of me can't help but feel like it doesn't quite carry the same "tone" as "your mech got a bit shot off" and that's hard for me to reconcile

#

even if i'll admit the current way structure only does that somewhat

brisk flax
plucky robin
brisk flax
#

lancer doesn't really do much with it beyond "sucks to suck"

indigo oasis
brisk flax
plucky patrol
indigo oasis
#

Double negatives are confusing

brisk flax
#

like from a top down perspective, my issue with System Trauma is it's a thing that exists entirely within the context of itself and nothing else in lancer cares about it

plucky patrol
#

Oh

plucky robin
opal folio
#

'my goblin got shot and now 1/3rd of my OS hacking suite is disabled' ok cool

brisk flax
#

IF lancer was a game where mech dismemberment mattered more then yes, system trauma would probably fit in better, which is I guess tautalogical but there we are

plucky robin
brisk flax
#

it feels like an element that was added...I don't want to say as an afterthought, but that isn't very well integrated into the rest of the game that exists

plucky patrol
young turtle
opal folio
# plucky robin I mean, it's pretty easy to put a bullet through a hard drive. XD

https://youtu.be/rSvBFm_MuXw?si=GLqGXojFr3dfFPgi

YouTube
Bosnian Ape Society
How to Protect Your Computer from Getting Shot by an MBT

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/bosnianapesociety/

Do you hate it when your computer gets destroyed by a main battle tank? Do not worry anymore. This tutorial will inform you of the risks involved with main battle tanks near your computer and show you how to improve your computer rig to resist any type of ammunition shot at it. With this t...

▶ Play video
#

(sorry, i'll stop shitposting)

plucky robin
#

I think one of the tricky things with any attempt to do mech dismemberment is that Lancer tends to go 'Sure, your mech can be whatever shape you want' but allowing that also makes Precise Locations much trickier.

#

So there isn't really the narrative framework for doing Battletech-style 'The arm bone's connected to the Railgun~'

young turtle
#

Jammed just doesn't carry the same tone

#

to me

brisk flax
#

If I was going to try some wacky shit with "how to integrate losing things into a lancer like game structure" then rather than random rolls on a table and "get fucked, buddy" outcomes, my initial thought would be something like "every point of Structure on your mech has to be associated with one weapon and/or system, and when THAT structure point is taken out, so is that weapon and/or system" and then build additional frameworks/effects around that

opal folio
#

yeah lancer is pretty unconcerned with the actual physicality of the mech and this pervades everything from 'idk just print another one' to 'i have an extra compartment in my hardsuit' type stuff

brisk flax
#

So your first structure point will probably be something less important or whatever

indigo oasis
brisk flax
#

but as you dig deeper into the mech, more critical stuff has to take the hit

young turtle
#

The other bit is that attrition wise I think that system and weapon trauma kinda make sense but only when they start to matter and you have to pick between HP, structure and getting a weapon back, imo

brisk flax
#

this is something I would probably pair with tom's idea of "system mounts" rather than SP

opal folio
brisk flax
#

and then from there you could play with things like "this system has different effects/bonuses depending on which Structure it's tied to"

brisk flax
young turtle
#

Cause I think making the calculus less complicated between fights could easily lead to people just going "well get more hull idiot" more than they already do, imo

indigo oasis
plucky robin
#

Silly pondering: If you set that up, you could give bonuses or reduced costs for stuff that's on earlier layers. So there is a reason not to make every layer 'Well, there goes my 1 SP system I don't care about', as risking your big toys makes them happier.

brisk flax
#

a game where "systems and weapons are tied to specific structure in meaningful ways" is one where I would not incorporate shitty little ablative systems and weapons

opal folio
#

yeah 'narrative mech systems' like manips or expanded compartment definitely feel like they're weird holdovers

indigo oasis
young turtle
#

See what we need to do instead is have a System Redundancy Cap which isn't Repairs and you can only use on weapons and system, you get it up with putting points into systems, easy/s

indigo oasis
#

The other 1 SP ablative systems at least have "meaningful" mechanical uses (Custom Paint Job is rough to have, and EVA module demands... it just demands, idk what else to say there... Expanded Compartment shares a space with Manipulators too now that I thinkg about it)

brisk flax
#

like to be clear when I spitball an idea like this the tacit assumption should be "this is something that would exist in a game whose framework supported it from the ground up" and not "this is a quick hack I would jam into lancer as it exists"

young turtle
#

Manipulators and Expanded Compartment exist in a world where GM give very specific briefing about the mission circumstances I think

#

they're not all that different from the 0G system

#

they don't work if your GM doesn't tell you they will matter

opal folio
#

i've found ways to make manipulators useful in the past but you really have to go out of your way to do so

plucky robin
# brisk flax functionally I wouldn't make manipulators a system

I feel like there's a big distinction between like 'Hey, I can go into Stealth Mode' and 'This is my Super Fancy Hacking Toy', yeah, which SP doesn't cover super well.

My big thought is that I'd give systems sizes, not just slots. You want HORUS 1? That's a Heavy System because handing out Jammed is huge.

brisk flax
#

but if the idea is "I want the visceral feeling of mech destruction in a way that isn't random bullshit BUT I also don't want to use some sort of grid-based sort of system" then the idea of building your mech with "layers" on it and getting structured blows one of those off makes it a more meaningful decision in terms of build, and also opens up the possibility of playing with "gear as it relates to structural association"

#

like to give a quick and dirty example, a system like External Batteries could have a proviso of "this system HAS to be placed in your Outermost Structure"

plucky robin
#

With some mechs having multi-purpose slots. Like HORUS mechs would have a lot of 'This can be a Main System or Main Weapon'

brisk flax
#

so it always ends up blowing up first

opal folio
brisk flax
#

meanwhile you could have systems or weapons which have variable effects depending on which structure they're anchored to

#

etc

opal folio
#

implicitly, i suppose this is also moving away from stress being a 'second healthbar' at all?

brisk flax
plucky robin
brisk flax
#

it would be "structure works similarly to how it does now in terms of rolling damage over, but each time you lose a structure you also lose the weapon and/or system tied to that particular structure"

#

I have 12 HP and my outermost structure system is the Lotus Projector because it gets benefits/it has to go there/I chose it to protect other stuff deeper, when I take 12 damage I lose that structure, Lotus Projector is also taken offline, and now I'm on structure 2 of 4, which has something else associated with it

young turtle
#

Okay this is a dumb idea

#

you know how the structure table gives you a hull check or you're stunned or destroyed

#

I'm thinking about System Trauma working the same way

#

Not with Hull, obviously

brisk flax
young turtle
#

That gives you a little bit more room to actually have a plan for it

brisk flax
#

like my assumption is that his nascent ideas for systems in lancer 2.0 is they'd work on a mount type system

#

so there would be Main Systems and Heavy Systems (or whatever) etc

indigo oasis
young turtle
#

It sounds like Beacon

#

a bit

brisk flax
#

which frankly works better as a means of establishing opportunity costs than SP, imo

#

mounts are more limited real estate, and it's easier to carve out strong exceptions in a way that "3 SP vs 2 SP" doesn't

plucky robin
#

I think there's still room for SP stuff still but it would be for more situational things. Like I'd use it for Disposable Toys and Situational Bonuses. Stuff like 'Hey, I can run through difficult terrain without penalty'

#

Stuff that's Not Worth A Full Mount/doesn't take an action in and of itself

bold crystal
#

as-is there's really no mech that can't mount a 4 SP system if it desperately wants to

opal folio
plucky robin
opal folio
#

yeah i'd just worry about there being too many layered systems i guess

plucky robin
#

I think 'Weapon Mounts', 'System Mounts' (Both of which can be blown off) and 'Additional Mods' (Which can't, they're not worth a structure layer) would be an acceptable amount of stuff.

But that's just my vague ponderings.

#

This also runs into a minor issue I have with the SP system.

#

It tricks new players a lot. A good way to use SP is '1-2 big active things, lots of more passive/reactive things' but a new player is going to shove like 6 actions into 8 SP and go 'most of this never gets used'.

#

While with weapon mounts, even if you didn't use your main mount, it wasn't 'lost resources' because you can't use it for more passive effects.

bold crystal
#

which is admittedly partly a 'hase is not balanced and it's easy to fuck up' problem but 'ooh, I want more SP for my stuff' is a common shape for that trap to take

blissful lion
#

Would be interesting if there were more talents for 1 SP stuff like the eva module. I need a rank 3 in Paint Job for my Nelson painted like sonic the hedgehog

plucky robin
#

I made a joke Core Bonus once called 'Masterwork Paint Job'. XD

indigo oasis
blissful lion
#

It's not hypothetical, it's real to me balancecat

finite egret
indigo oasis
vale crescent
#

NGGL Wouldn't be surprised if grit was aso dropped

opal folio
brisk flax
#

Pilot Archetypes, essentially

vale tide
fringe peak
#

Something I wanted to work on potentially is a more specialized stat line for NPC veterans with jockey etc

simple juniper
#

i might have made my next planned combat using only rebakes... Will report how it goes...

fluid zodiac
#

I did a fight with some rebake NPCs and I may do a full report later if I can think if anything actionable, but at the moment all I can say is the rebake hive is delightfully rude

#

It messed with the kidd's drones and suddenly they became top of the priority list

opal folio
#

speaking of the hive, i kind of feel like electro-nanite payload would work better as its veteran trait than abrade tbh

#

since the former upgrades a huge part of its kit including several options, while the latter is relatively niche

indigo oasis
#

The Veteran traits are designed to be pretty niche tho, and Electro Nanite Payload was a CRB optional too

buoyant mortar
#

question about the Ace, it mentioend on the missile launcher that lock'd on targets ignore cover; isnt that largely a non issue when it has blast?

#

is it mostly to ignore effects from thinkgs like House Guard?

#

i know it doesn't have arcing anymore, but blast usually still lets you circumvent a lot of cover anyway

rose hamlet
#

It matters for smokescreens

buoyant mortar
#

ah I suppose that's fair yeah

ashen galleon
#

👁️

interesting

indigo oasis
#

Do y’all think it’d be easier to run to make the Die Roll for SCL’s charge die just be the same as the Recharge Roll? It’s not RAW but idk, feels tedious to roll 2 die per start of turn if the Ultra has SCL and Recharge abilities

rose hamlet
#

Seems fine to collapse the two together like that

indigo oasis
#

It would affect the math slightly, as either SCL & Recharges charge at the same time, or they charge independently (so SCL could be full but the ultra could lack recharges), and which direction it falls would have an impact on game balance

rose hamlet
#

It’s not much of a math change, it just changes what is available at a time

#

I think it’s fine to roll them together, because SCL is an ordnance full action anyway

indigo oasis
#

Fair

rose hamlet
#

Like sure overcharge exists but like, eh

#

Test it and see what happens

dapper plover
#

Rephrasing that.

How is the SCL Ordnance? I didn't get that from it
/genuinely curious

vale crescent
#

OLD SCL was ordnance

#

New one isn't

dapper plover
#

gotcha! thank you

rose hamlet
#

Whoops mb

brisk flax
# buoyant mortar question about the Ace, it mentioend on the missile launcher that lock'd on targ...

basically as mentioned, the "lock on to ignore cover" is a simpler formulation of the markerlight effect. I do think that a flying enemy with a blast weapon having seeking on it is redundant in that regard, if you want to get LoS then you should have to use your maneuverability, but the cover-ignoring effect of Seeking does apply to more than just "a block of cover on the map," and so as a compromise for removing the Seeking tag from the weapon, what it has now is something that lets it ignore any incidental hard cover it might have to contend with from angle limitations, but also forms of soft cover from smoke, various talents, elements on the map, etc

brisk flax
buoyant mortar
#

yeah no i like the logic, seeking is a bit too universally able to ignore a bunch of stuff when the npc itself has plenty of tools as is

brisk flax
#

the other half of which went into Solipsis Swarm

buoyant mortar
#

i think also seeking encouraged a strange playstyle of... This very fast mech wants to camp where you can't see it to shoot you where you can't shoot back, which seems at odds with its more aggressive vibe

brisk flax
#

yeah

buoyant mortar
#

not to say the wall camping bomb shooter isn't a niche, but it doesnt quite fit for an ace

brisk flax
#

my understanding is a lot of "serious" ace play involves sticking low and behing LoS blockers and then firing missiles that way

#

not a big fan

#

like I don't think Aces should HAVE to maintain a max flight ceiling at all times, BUT I also think that "camp behind cover and lob projectiles" exists in the Rainmaker and we don't need a second version of that

#

so I nixed seeking along with buffing Strafe etc

buoyant mortar
#

yeah, in like loose non mechanical terms, ace should be encouraged to move

#

rather than find a good spot and splash away

indigo oasis
#

yo. yo yo yo. Emergency Jettison Ace + Avenger

brisk flax
#

It's a trick I believe works with Feign Death too

indigo oasis
#

Yeah but Emergency Jettison moves the Ace into Revenge range and doesn't remove them from being a potential target

#

idk if triggering Feign Death or Emergency Jettison would allow Revenge to trigger

dapper plover
#

emergency jettison explicitly says "instead" regarding being destroyed, right? would that still count?

#

if nothing else it's def good on the angle that it lets them self-yeet into Revenge range at 1 HP

subtle nacelle
#

New Pyro's Firebreak should not have the shield tag, correct?

rose hamlet
#

I mean it’s still shield-like

subtle nacelle
#

Yes, it's just the master doc doesn't list that as a tag, and i wanted Word of Kai on it

brisk flax
#

correct

#

largely it doesn't matter, but it's removed because I feel that it's incongruous with the new implementation which is more explicitly "you are creating a wall of literal flame" than "this is some sort of energy shield with a funny name"

subtle nacelle
subtle nacelle
#

actually, come to think of it, what would we need to do to get this LCP in the community lcp directory??

rose hamlet
subtle nacelle
vale crescent
#

00 activations, activate when the turret does because it means multi activation engineers capitalise off it more

#

Turret activations just wouldn't be worth it and will all go at the end of the round

bold crystal
#

the turrets having their own activations would make ultra engineers dramatically weaker without certain optional choices.

rose hamlet
#

Only benefit for turrets having activations is tracking which turret already shot. But it doesn’t work well when Ultras and Elites enter the game yeah

rose hamlet
young swan
#

Okay if I may, as someone who hasn't actually gotten to read over these in too much detail yet, I know the issues that come up with some enemies getting extra attack, but what is sort of taking their place in game design?

Is it just that they're considered unnecessary because of how power scaling works from the player side as well?

neon blaze
#

It's more that extra attacks are multiplicative by design, which is a nightmare to actually balance - Operator is the most infamous example for this, who gets an extra attack every Tier. 1 at 1, 2 at 2, etc etc. The damage of the Plasma Rifle stays the same, but that still means an Operator is gaining 7 extra Energy damage in terms of scaling, vs other NPCs only really getting +2 at best, maybe +4 or 5 if it is a Superheavy.

#

Armor can obviously factor in to change the math, but ultimately where that comes up its not so impactful, and where it doesn't its just death, which makes the match up very swingy and basically rocket tag

plucky robin
#

I think multi-attacks are fine but scaling multi-attacks are not.

neon blaze
#

NPCs being able to multi-attack is fine, as you can balance around a fixed number of attacks - the problem is the multi-attack scaling

plucky robin
#

You don't want '1 shot per tier'

#

Dammit, stole my thoughts Recon!

neon blaze
#

It's a similar reason why like, "deal double damage" and stuff like that is also a nightmare. Multiplicatives are just a pain in the ass unless you have a very controlled input

#

scaling is the devil

#

or something

plucky robin
#

It's why I don't like say, the Assassin's 'Do Double Damage against X' and think it would be better phrased as 'Do X/Y/Z bonus damage'

#

Never mix operators if you can avoid it. XD

bold crystal
#

there was like one increasing multiattack that wasn't hideously strong, and it was on the goliath's drum shotgun, and that still ends up doing 15 at tier 3.

neon blaze
#

It can't gain any additional damage traditionally, and its only keyed into the Heated Blade, so it can't barrage with it or something

#

Ultra and its bonus damage crit trait obviously compounds this, which also scaled with Tier which is absurd, but the Rebake Ultra at least clamps it to just being one scale for all tiers which does control it a ton

brisk flax
brisk flax
neon blaze
#

yup

brisk flax
#

there's one way to reliably gain PC-side armor which is a single core bonus for +1 armor

neon blaze
#

It's not something you can plan for, in the end

#

it just Is™️

brisk flax
#

which means that the ostensible counterpoint to multiattack scaling rarely if ever becomes a factor

neon blaze
#

hence the swing

brisk flax
#

I can take sloped plating and turn the operator's incoming damage per attack from 7 to 6, but that still basically gives the operator multiplicative damage of 6x2/6x3

#

if armor was more of a scalable factor then maybe (in huge quotes) multiattack scaling wouldn't be as bad

plucky robin
#

While non-scaling multi-attacks are a more reasonable 'armour applies twice/thrice at all levels' instead of changing per tier.

bold crystal
#

damage scaling beyond +0/+2/+4(or the equivalent in multiattack), in practice, feels like dramatically too much damage.

brisk flax
#

I'm doubtful it would be reined in even then because now it just becomes "the operator explodes lightly armored targets"

bold crystal
brisk flax
#

There's also another factor to multiplicative attack scaling which is how it interacts with extra actions/activations

#

that is, if I have a Tier 3 Operator, that guy shoots three times per skirmish or whatever

#

if I make them an Elite, that guy is now shooting 6 times per round

bold crystal
#

'oops, the tier 3 ultra operator with three turns can put out 63 fucking damage per round'

brisk flax
#

maybe I'll give them Limitless, whoops, that's another 3 attacks per overcharge

#

etc

bold crystal
#

to an extent this is just what tier and turn scaling does, but if the jump is +7 per tier and not +2 per tier, the effect is outsized.

brisk flax
#

functionally, the way you do "I want to have this guy attack more" in the rebake is you use templates, Elite, Veteran w/Limitless, Ultra, and start from a baseline of "one attack at a time"

#

you can make a rebake Operator shoot 2x a turn, you have to make them a Veteran and take 1d6 heat for the privilege

trail pivot
#

that + like, an assault that barrages at t1 and hits both is doing 10 damage on both hits, at t1, 17 at t3 (a 70% inscrease)

the operator at base has literally a 200% damage increase from t 1 to t3 (just because)

brisk flax
#

people have remarked on Solstice Rain's boss being an ultra operator, but Tier 1 is the only time I would really feel confident making an ultra operator boss fight

trail pivot
#

^

bold crystal
#

oh absolutely.

#

and to be clear, I feel like that tier 1 operator prints complaints.
(it's the least dangerous an ultra operator ever is and it still does this.)

plucky robin
# 
Stop Doing Scaling Multi-Attacks

-Why does his gun get faster as he gets more experienced?
-Armour doesn't scale to account for it.
-You wanted to get more attacks? We had a tool for it, it was called Archers.
-"Yes, please give me extra dice rolls and multiplicative scaling." - Statements dreamed up by the utterly deranged.
brisk flax
#

anyway all the rebake multi-attack NPCs have been refactored to utilize conventional damage scaling, with the exception of the Rainmaker (which isn't "multiattacking" in this sense, it's more just an AoE) and the Breacher (which I go into detail on in the design notes for the reasoning there)

neon blaze
#

breacher my beloved

brisk flax
#

The Breacher might even still be wonky at upper levels, it's doing 9x2 damage at Tier 3 for example, but I've tried to head off a number of secondary factors that might be troublesome with that, like giving it a hard accuracy cap

#

there also aren't any more weird scaling accuracy bonus sources, things like Investiture no longer give +1/2/3 Accuracy, etc

neon blaze
#

yeah in my experience some things just don't need scaling like that

brittle cipher
#

much as it pains me to say, sometimes number doesn't need to go up

brisk flax
#

and that's part of the whole "bound NPC accuracy tighter" thing in general

#

I honestly think given how many NPCs have gained things like sidelines in Lock On that distributing additional accuracy shouldn't be THAT hard, BUT Lock On doesn't stack AND it requires you the GM to be making plays to do it rather than just "yeah my operator's gun has baseline +2 accuracy, eat shit"

trail pivot
#

nothing like just having to eat that 10 damage sniper shot because it out-accuracies hard cover

indigo oasis
young swan
fringe peak
#

about to run a gauntlet featuing ultra seeder

#

we shall see

#

what happens next

rose hamlet
#

Hell yeah

stark mulch
#

One question about the Juggernaut rework: is the intention that the Juggernaut can select "become impaired" even if they're already impaired? IE, they take a fragsig, become impaired and slowed, and at the start of their turn they remove slowed to become Impaired - which since they're already Impaired, is essentially costless?

I really like the concept of the Juggernaut rework and in my own game would probably not let Ultras do that, but as written it seems like you can?

indigo oasis
#

That’s exactly how it’s designed to work I believe

ebon trenchBOT
#

Itd be pretty shit if the players could apply impaired plus something like stunned or jammed and they just couldnt clear it via impaired

indigo oasis
#

There’s been discussion around whether or not that should be changed but Kai’s waiting on playtest data before doing anything

ebon trenchBOT
#

Imo

#

Since that just encourages condition balling the ultra, something juggernaut is explicitly designed to prevent

indigo oasis
#

To be fair that’s what the alt costs are meant for- the action cost is mean to be analog to stuff like Jammed and Stun iirc

#

If players can do stuff like Heavy Gunner + Hyperdense Armor stack because damage can’t be halved twice I think letting some NPCs utilize stacking immunity bs is fair

rose hamlet
#

Yeah the alt costs could make it tenable to forbid the Impaired option while already impaired. But as mentioned, needs some playtesting

indigo oasis
#

I can see the impair causing perverse incentives to avoid impairing the ultra potentially being an issue, but I wanna wait to actually run a Rebaked Ultra first

rose hamlet
#

I think the real stress test for rebaked Juggernaut is someone using Orator 1 on the Ultra Rebake and then having other conditions coming in

indigo oasis
#

Well that’s exactly what’s gonna happen in the final fight of my campaign’s current mission lol

#

Orator 3 Swallowtail baybee

#

Just need to get to that fight before July -_-

rose hamlet
#

I certainly hope you can finish your mission before July lol

indigo oasis
#

There are very long narrative sections and scheduling is a nightmare -3-

rose hamlet
#

At least narrative is one of the easiest times to have absent players fade to the background lol

#

Unless you’re at a “everyone must be present” table I suppose

indigo oasis
#

It’s not necessary to have everyone there, but we’d all be devastated if anyone missed a single session of it

#

Since I made adapted a survival horror map exploration with Foundry fog of war and walls and everything

#

It’s a narrative free roam which is really tough to make but very worth it

rose hamlet
#

Been there, I get it lol

tulip hawk
#

This Friday I'll be running our six-man group through combats 5 & 6 of solstice rain remix with the new rebakes, looking forward to seeing how they handle Kiros and hopefully we'll get meaningful playtest feedback on how an ultra handles (albeit with a larger party)

fringe peak
#

@brisk flax

Players: t2
2 oleanders (one scylla rain gun, other anti mat)
Homebrew mech thats bassically slow goblin
Melee saladin with TCB
Tortuga with gandiva heavy gunner

Ultra Seeder
Sentinel
Veteran Ace
Veteran Rainmaker
Priest
Grunt Supports
Pyro
Specter

Gauntlet

The seeder felt overall more balanced as in all, especally with the landmines being more ative. It was a map with a bunch of chokepoints and it was able to hold a point very well... one thing I did notice with speed deployer is that if the enemy just... doesn't engage with the landmines which happens pretty often, they just didn't matter and the seeder lost that trait since it can't replace used mines. Which is part of the balance but it does feels bad that you can get your main trait just... disabled.

FASCAM is amazing, it's able to lock down a large choke but it's massive size made it so I had to be mroe tactical. Ace, Sentinel and grunt supports felt good.

Rainmaker felt pretty good as well with it's more controller aspect and when paired with priest it was able to sit in the backline and shoot.

Something that happened is that the seeder just spammed grind maniple and was able to just shut down alot of the crackshot/core siphon snipers. Along with using grave spike all the time. It felt like there was less of a focus on the landmines and more of just tech attackers and spamming grave spike and fascam to shut down chokes. Which isn't bad per say, but it did feel bad when I wasnted 2 optionals on land mines.

A player pointed out there's like... a massive amount of lock on synergy across npcs... like ALOT. Which isn't bad and leads to more synergies overall. But it was just something I noticed. Ace also has a bit of the old rainmaker problem where it has no reason to ever consume lock on. So it was able to soften up enemies for rainmaker easily.

One thing I did notice is specter felt a little slow. It felt like it wasn't really able to do the maount of prowloer into backlines like I would have liked. ghostwalk did help.

All in all, like changes, I do feel grind manipe should be some greater cost cause it's crushing for an ultra to have and just completely shut down players

indigo oasis
#

Note on Speed Deployer- the Seeder can still redeploy mines and remove active mines with Lay Mines, only Speed Deployer is shut down until a mine is detonated

#

I think- that’s how it reads to me

fringe peak
#

if so i probably misread it

indigo oasis
#

Moreover, the Seeder- at least in my eyes- went the route of other rebakes in making NPCs “have at least 1.5 different things”. Seeders are not only about Mines now, but Gravity Manipulation. The fact that Ultra allowed it to do things other than “Lay Mines” feels like a positive from my perspective, tho focusing on that over the mines I could see feeling bad

brisk flax
# fringe peak <@184370003892502530> Players: t2 2 oleanders (one scylla rain gun, other anti...

Okay, some notes:

  1. I do think you're misreading Speed Deployer. Speed Deployer itself can't be reused again until a mine has been detonated or disarmed, not the Seeder's ability to deploy mines period. That is, once you use Speed Deployer to place three mines at once, you can't place three mines at a time again until one of those conditons has been met

2). Lock On synergy: 100% by design, I want to encourage NPCs to set up their allies more than simply going "well I'll skirmish/quick tech, and then use my other action for an Invade" or something

3). Re: the Ace specifically, I don't really mind passive Lock On benefits, my issue is a matter of what those benefits are. I don't, for example, care for the CRB scout who can stick Lock On onto someone and make them perma-debuffed until it's cleared, but something like "this attack ignores cover" on Missile Launcher or the Rainmaker's Huntsman (the non AP elements) are imo fine. I don't think I'm going to remove that from Missile Launcher, an argument could be made for adding a consmption clause to Strafe

4). Re: Grind Maniple, the thing is that Grind Maniple is literally just an existing ability shuffled to the Ultra template. You could be doing the same thing if you made a CRB Ultra Hive (which is something I recommend everyone try at least once) or cross-classed it onto something else. I wonder, and I mean this non judgmentally, if this is more a case of "realizing how good Grind Maniple is" similar to how people realized how good Hiding is when the Hecatonchires entered the mech pool, or the Daisy Cutter with the Gilgamesh, etc

4.5). And to go along with this, "the ultra used Grind Maniple a lot" isn't, imo, meaningfully different from what you could already be doing with a Ravager Turret, attacking everyone in LoS for a single quick action, or Hellfire Projectors, etc. Like yeah Grind Maniple IS good, but even the CRB Ultra can just go "I cast Gun" and do lots of extra damage

#

5). Re: the Specter feeling slow, I'm not sure anything in the rebake should be causing a noticeable difference there versus the CRB version. Both versions of the Specter have the same Speed at Tiers 1 and 2, and only one less Speed at Tier 3 (so the scaling is more intuitive), both of them have Prowl, both of them have Step in their optionals, etc. The only major distinction is the rebake Specter's Monowire Sword is Threat 2 rather than Threat 3, specifically so it has to commit itself a bit more to getting close to its target, but it's still an NPC that can, if it wants, triple move on its turn (move, boost, prowl) or teleport 50 spaces with an optional, etc

#

That is, the rebake Specter isn't meaningfully slower (through speed reductions or lack of mobility options) than the CRB version

fringe peak
# brisk flax 5). Re: the Specter feeling slow, I'm not sure anything in the rebake should be ...

I agree on grind maniple tbh, I used it a ton when I ran hives because it's a very good way to shut down reaciton mechs. I don't run ultra hives often and prefer stuff like ultra supports or demolishers alot so that might be exactly why. I think it's just it felt really opressive.

I also think it's litterally just that with the sword. I didn't take step this time around so loss of one threat really was felt. Nothing bad, just something that felt like it took some getting used to how I play with it.

#

i think it might just be a thing of didn't really like grind maniple. it felt abit of a fuck you move often, but moving it to an ultra optional made alot of sense. Side note, horus crasher is awesome

#

it did feel like seeder was able to be alot mroe flexible.. I did miss tripewires

brisk flax
#

like here's the thing about tripwires: having mines that detonate on adjacency rather than directly walking onto them is functionally just tripwires but better

indigo oasis
#

It literally is because the cross section is the same length as line 3

brisk flax
#

the left is a CRB seeder mine using Tripwires, the right is a rebake seeder mine's triggering area

New_Bitmap_Image.jpg
#

also tripwires turns lay mines into a Recharge 5+!

#

fuck off!

#

the CRB seeder is such an awkward weird NPC, mines being asymmetric in completely baffling ways, tripwires being a potential major trap choice, stun mines, there is no reason for any of this

#

oh and I went and checked to make sure but the ultra's Grind Maniple even has the accuracy shaved off of it (which the Hive normally gets)

#

so yeah idk, I don't think Grind Maniple as an Ultra option is especially punishing compared to the other extras that an Ultra can get as a quick action

vale crescent
#

I loved it when I used tripwire mines once and the seeder did jack shit all game because it was sat on a point at the back of the map on control waiting for the next mines to recharge

brisk flax
#

Ravager Turret at Tier 2 is "I get to attack everyone in Range 10 and LoS for 5 damage"

vale crescent
#

Atleast a hive that hasn't regenerated feels like it can do things

brisk flax
#

yeah burn is AP and potentially more damage if someone beefs their check but it's also affecting one person at a time and you have more control over the damage you take

#

that is, applied to someone whose turns tend to boil down to "I do one big attack," Grind Maniple isn't getting you a ton of value for the quick action, it's much more potent against specific sorts of builds (like reaction heavy ones)

fringe peak
#

but ye, grind maniples i noticed also does really well against protocol heavy builds

#

since protolc sare free actions and it lets you stack burn a ton

haughty venture
#

I like a lot of what I've read in this chat and the actual documents, but I've never actually ran Lancer before. Would people recommend I try it with the base NPCs first then try swapping to this or would it be fine to start off with the Rebake?

brisk flax
#

yeah, protocols and reactions etc will add up to a lot of grind maniple procs, but "I move and then I barrage" doesn't really care about a tech attack that makes them take 2 burn

fringe peak
#

ye

#

same with like tech attackers who only make 2 actions a round or a full action full tech

brisk flax
rose hamlet
haughty venture
#

Alright, decided I should ask in case people felt like the Rebake requires a bit of system knowledge to use. Which is something I don't really have. I've read a bit, but I could always read more.

rose hamlet
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Honestly I think the rebakes require less system knowledge since a lot of the “weird tech” of CRB has been pruned away or outright removed

fringe peak
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the rebake does alot of work to make things function more normally, alot of systems and traits pull from player talents to help as a reference

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Veteran rainmaker getting stormbringiner 1, sentinel getting vangaugrd 3 etc

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the seeders mines working like fucking miens

brisk flax
#

yeah that's a pretty fair point, there's stuff in the CRB like Seeders (to loop back to earlier ruminations) that work far less intuitively than the rebake counterparts

fringe peak
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ye

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also by allahs grace the pyros firebreak shield does burn

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and people actively cheered when sentinel had vangaurd 3

haughty venture
#

Okay, I'll keep looking at the Rebake stuff. Though I am waiting for my DnD campaign to wrap up so I might not be able to give feedback before the project is ready for a full release.

fringe peak
#

its something that has gotten good recpetion mostly. The only thing people seem to dislike are the assault changes oddly enough?

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like I like them, but players say they kinda miss assault just being shoot gun man with some cool loading optionals

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i haven't gotten extensive assault testing so I'll let you know when I get something more concret

haughty venture
#

The google doc is up to date with the latest versions right?

surreal zenith
#

use the pinned pdf in this channel

brisk flax
haughty venture
indigo oasis
rose hamlet
brisk flax
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like basically the assault changes are:
1). No reliable damage
2). Hunker Down self-slows now
3). High-Impact Rounds and Auto-Targeting are replaced

indigo oasis
#

I do miss High Impact Rounds, as I personally think it compliments the “attack people out of cover” niche well, but that’s subjective and I can always add it back in myself

rose hamlet
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I’d rather have a dedicated Loading Dps NPC than have Assault be one sometimes tbh

fringe peak
brisk flax
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point the second is a nerf, but the rest doesn't fundamentally change the Assault's playstyle or role from the CRB in any meaningful sense

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also, nobody has told ME "I don't like the assault" so, like, who are you hearing this from?

fringe peak
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Like my players felt like it was too special ig? like it has a niche now

brisk flax
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yeah that's the point

fringe peak
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Exactly! and i like that niche

indigo oasis
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If you want a generic/filler NPC pick one of the bespoke grunts

fringe peak
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thats what i said!

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i think it's cause alot of epople put alot of stake into assaults reliable damage

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which makes it as a good npc against high evasion comps and invis mechs... but like

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just use an archer or a sentinel at that point? also was it intended for punisher ammo ons enitnel to slow off reliable?

brisk flax
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operative word is "hit"

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"miss but deals reliable damage" is a miss

fringe peak
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so that's why i was little confused

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I figured it was a mistake, so I just wanted to make sure! thank you for clearing it up

brisk flax
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"characters damaged" is the wording used in the CRB

fringe peak
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ooooooooh

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wierd, cause that's what's on the tav version rn on the LCP, so i figured it was probably a porting mistake

indigo oasis
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Should probably report that then

fringe peak
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will do!

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ill open up an issue on the github when im home at the pc

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i do wanna say though in general... i love the changes for the most part, the specter change on monowire sword forced me to be more tactical with targets and caused alot of strategy with big beefy guys just grabbing and holder the specter. One game a drake just straight up grappled it and said "I have 4 armour, he'll be doing two damage to me"

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which was a really cool moment, kinda like when your napeolean player goes 'wait, ill just drag this witch into a crorner"

bold crystal
#

this is why counterplay is great, because when you have it... it makes for some incredible moments.

vale crescent
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I dislike the assault changes because I make my maps have way too dense cover therefore it's the assaults that are the problem and not me because I had a commander assault once and everyone had either soft cover or hard cover from all the terrain I made so I blame the assault and not me who made a fucking dense map /j

fringe peak
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ye, i feel assault wants to hang around rather close range, even closer than breacher sometimes

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not bad, just a funny thing, which makes it able to us eknife better

opal folio
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i've ran a rebake specter, operator and seeder but not the vanilla versions yet

brisk flax
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re: the assault, the solution to "oh no there's too much cover on the map" is "bring people who blow it up"

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or "bring people with forced movement"

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etc

vale crescent
fringe peak
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pov john demolisher

vale crescent
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The one mission I had a demolisher with the rebake I wanted to pop off with the demolisher abilities but it was a "the NPCs don't want to destroy the terrain" combat

eternal flare
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Played a first combat with the rebake

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Demolisher, Cataphracts, Assaults I think

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I really like the cataphract and Demolisher changes it makes them a lot more dynamic feeling which is nice

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The assault is fine but I was playing a Kidd so I didn’t have much exposure haha

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I think not having reliable is nice for a basic enemy and was definitely noticeable for the generally agile party

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Just less so for my 6 eva 2 armor hide haha

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The demo changes rule

young turtle
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I was playing in that one and I think the defender grunts ruled

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I think they're a good mix of low damage enemy who also have a tiny bit of health

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rather than blow up immediatelly

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It made firing "aoe" stuff (I had tiger hunter combat sheathe) feel cool because it meant the damage felt "worth it" to put on them

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I think the only thing i'd mention as a "worry" is that its actually very much possible to play the Assault as a barrage "melee enemy" if you get right next to a player and try to constantly barrage, since the accuracy gain from the lack of cover offsets the engagement difficulty penalty

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And I think that's a tiny bit of a shame since it means that, even with the lack of reliable, getting engaged to make their aim worse isn't as useful as it could be
This is very minor, and personally my take would just be to make it so the rifle doesn't get that accuracy if the assault is engaged at all, but it is also fairly low on how problematic I think this could be

rose hamlet
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I’d see “nominally ignores engaged penalty” as a perk of the Striker job tbf but I get it if others disagree

brisk flax
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That's one of those things I don't really sure I feel is super problematic overall at the moment, yeah, especially with hunker down now applying self-slow

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you can also already do that with an assault, letting reliable damage offset the penalty

brisk flax
#

also on the subject of the defender grunts, I've had them get used in a few games now and the feedback on them has generally been positive regarding their sustain, but some people have suggested they're a bit too passive (a couple passive traits and a shotgun), so I'm looking at giving them a more active ability in the next update

# 
Interpose
Trait, Reaction, Limited 1
Trigger: An allied character adjacent to the Defender-Type is hit by a non-Superheavy ranged or melee attack.
Effect: That character gains Resistance to the triggering attack. The Defender-Type is then destroyed.```
haughty venture
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Ooooo I love effects like that. Reminds me of "Look Out Sir!" from 40k.

indigo oasis
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Idk if limited 1 is necessary due to destroying the grunt but sounds fun + ideal, and a good exchange

halcyon wasp
young turtle
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Actually I did have a question about the assault, is there a specific reason that the knife was kept (mostly) as is outside of the damage change?

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They always struct me as a sort of safeguard for multi structure assaults losing a weapon to structure

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but now that this isn't really possible it seems like that shifts their intent to allowing the assault a way to barrage right out of the gate right?

brisk flax
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So I could see the argument for "why not just give the assault the rifle and be done with it," and in a "if I were inventing this from first principles" sense I might be inclined to do so

I think, however, there's an argument to be made for Assaults having a melee weapon outside of improvised attacking because they're meant to provide a more "general purpose" role than other strikers who tend to be more specialized at a thing (backline assassination, anti-armor, etc), and I think even with the rebake's shift towards a more structured gameplay identity, that the Assault still remains one of the more well-rounded strikers in the bunch versus guys like the Berserker (all-in melee, super weak to tech) or the Cataphract (hyper-mobile displacement focused off-controller) etc

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I think that the knife being what it is, I'm not overly concerned about the Assault barraging with it being a thing that overtakes what else it's doing given its extremely short range and modest damage, and tbh you could even look at it as a form of "this is another thing the assault can do if it successfully catches you out of cover," but broadly speaking I think it's fine for the assault to have a knife as simply another tool in its kit, albeit a niche one

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Hunker Down now self-slowing also makes it harder for an assault to just casually walk through fire to get next to people without incident if they also want to use their survivability tool

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unless you opt for Stormtrooper in which case you're making a conscious decision to eschew that survivabilty for a greater chance of getting off a bayonet charge

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also worth noting: the things in this project ARE meant to be sort of "pick and mix" even if they've obviously been designed with interoperability in mind as well, that is to say that yeah I really like the new structure/stress rules BUT you don't HAVE to use those

indigo oasis
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Also also, Commando started this project and if it were to stay around in the finished project then the knife would have to stay too

brisk flax
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so "knife as ablative system trauma fodder" remains a consideration

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and for ultras etc

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and yeah I'm fond of Commando as a veteran trait, I could just have it give the knife back as part of it but eh

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like I think the thing with the Assault is 70% "this needs a better identity" but also 30% is "this is a STRIKER and you need to treat it like one," and "this guy can shoot and also stab you if you let it" is part of that imo

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part of giving it a better identity is to shake the assumption that the Assault is just a filler guy

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this is a DPS unit, people should consider it one when taking the opfor into account, and if "oh hey I can flank someone and shoot/stab them" makes that click, I consider that a plus

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tbh I think a lot of GMs kind of overlook the knife in general

indigo oasis
#

I think the 2 assaults I’ve ran always fled before they could use it

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Tbh the last Assault I ran was a pirate with coreworms, so he just kinda used it, swore a bunch, and then fled

young turtle
#

I think my main point of feedback then when it comes to the knife is, I think, right now its mostly a slightly more accurate but less damaging option, and I could see the argument for it being a good way to give people a more meaningful choice when it comes to getting out of engagement with the assault, but with the way the rifle works I could potentially see that as a default (slightly less accurate, but better damage at the same level of accuracy).

I don't think its a big deal if it stays in as is as just "its nice to have a knife" but I think it could be fun to give it a slightly clearer niche, my first instinct would genuinely be to give it knockback 1 so that the assault deciding to barrage with the knife and the assault rifle against a single character has an interesting dynamic.

But also this is me riffing, i don't think there's anything "wrong" with it

brisk flax
#

yeah I actually kind of like the knife as "just a knife" in the sense that it's like...it's a thing to go "well okay, you tell ME how you want to use it"

#

I gave the grenade launcher knockback explicitly so it served a clearer purpose than just as a damage tool for instance (you use it to shove people out of cover), but the knife I look at as more of a creativity exercise for the GM

#

you wanna use it as a close-in deterrent? You wanna charge someone and bayonet them? is it your emergency backup weapon?

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it won't lend itself to a particular "thing," it doesn't knockback, it has no special qualities associated with it, it's just the platonic representation of "a knife"

#

there's a world where the combat knife is an assault optional and has a slightly more specialized effect, a thing I've done with weapons like the Specter's machine pistol to give it more of a reason for existing than "idk it's funny"

#

but the knife being default kit, I kind of like that it's just sort of there

#

I realize this might seem somewhat arbitrary (hey didn't you kill off a bunch of optional weapons in other NPCs) but making stuff is sort of all about arbitrary decisions

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(and to be clear I think it's valid to look at the knife as weirdly extraneous or superfluous, I do think there's a strong argument to be made for an assault who has just the rifle)

subtle nacelle
#

https://github.com/Shteb/Kais-NPC-Rebake-LCP/releases/tag/1.17.0
Deployables!! This release has no changes for the NPCs themselves so the latest 1.16.x npcs and 1.17.0 are identical. What this release adds is the updated Engineer's turret in a dedicated "deployables" LCP. Even though these are two independent LCPs, moving forward their version numbers will be tied to each other.

GitHub
Release 1.17.0 - Deployables!! · Shteb/Kais-NPC-Rebake-LCP

New workflow and files for publishing a Deployables LCP for stuff like Engineer's turret for VTT users.
What's Changed

[Feature] Add manifest, class, and features for the deployables lcp b...

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I learned a feature that i think is undocumented for v2 npcs which is the overwrites property which i used for Fortress Turrets to bump up the size to 1. The usual way of doing bonus size +1 ended with the turret at size 1.5 :))

buoyant mortar
#

noting that the assault lost access to AP options, knife might make an interesting can opener?

#

though it generally does enough damage that it doesnt need AP really

young turtle
#

Kai mentioned it was fine as is but really my main problem with it (both in the rebake and in crb) is that I don't know if it really has much of a use not covered by the rifle

buoyant mortar
#

I dont know if I hate the assault being on the short list of npcs who can barrage personally

young turtle
#

Right but I think that's a cool aspect I think is covered in a more interesting way with the grenade launcher personally

buoyant mortar
#

yeah that's fair, its more interactive and has a more direct problem its solving

#

in that sense the knife is just there

young turtle
#

the veteran Commando trait is honestly an interesting spin on it imo

#

but the knife doesn't really cover a situation that isn't already better covered by the rifle, Overwatch for breaking adjacency is already better done with the rifle because it has more damage and similar enough odds, so the only real "use" for it is barraging someone who's next to the assault with the knife and then maybe shoot them or someone else with the rifle

brisk flax
#

I'm not going to be removing or changing the knife

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I think speculating on potential design applications of "what the knife could look like in some reimagined version" is fine, but just to lay it out there: I'm not going to be making changes to it, I like where it is, I don't think it's a problem

young turtle
#

I think you should give it range, a barrel and trigger and call it "rifleknife" or something and I think that's when this rebake will be good

#

But yeah no to be clear this is very very low stakes and ultimately not something I actually like "care" about in the grand scheme of things as a player or a GM, its fine if it stays as is

buoyant mortar
#

eld and I are going to meet at a Denny's parking lot to fight it out over the Assault's knife

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in the rain

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nonmechanically, i just kinda like the knife

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it weirdly lends some personality to the assault

orchid ledge
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im generally anti-"core kit barrage" for most NPCs but the assault is the one NPC where i think its okay

young turtle
#

I think the problem in my eyes is that if access to barrage is what the knife is a good option to have, I think it plays a bit weird with the rifle because of the range difference, unlike the grenade launcher which also adds to the barrage on top of "just more damage" with its own niche

orchid ledge
#

mmmm okay i get that

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fwiw the new cover rules for the assault rebake has led me to playing assault way more aggressively, since it effectively removes ranged difficulty from being engaged

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so im always trying to get point blank with it

brisk flax
#

as mentioned, Stormtrooper also hooks into this by inverting Hunker Down from "get resistance but become slowed" to "run forward when attacked and gain Accuracy"

fringe peak
#

a minor thing I wouldn't mind, commanda giving effective combined arms 2 to the assault. It's probably not needed cause if your in melee you're going to have +1 accuracy to set it off anyways but it's just something that came to my mind

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imma be trying out an ultra support today for a tier 1 mission. so I'm going to see how the 'more centerpiece/less raidboss' ultra feels when applied to supports as the number 1 ultra scout enjoyer

vale crescent
#

Lmao

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"You bet yo ass that's limited, there's nothing left!!!"

brittle cipher
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the mech is limited 1

indigo oasis
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“Self Erasure: Limited 1”

fringe peak
#

lol

#

i think that's a funny thing

#

tbf ig it's if you have something that can stop a grunt frm being destroyed?

#

like pause engine or somethign?

indigo oasis
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“Castigate the Enemies of the Godhead: Limited 1”

indigo oasis
errant needle
#

@brisk flax

So, ran a full rebake squad this session.

SitRep: Train Heist from Enhanced Combat

PCs: LL2 Sherman, Tortuga, Swallowtail, Lancaster, Black Witch

NPCs: Veteran Bastion, Veteran Breacher, Support, Scout, Assault x2, Ronin x2, split into two fireteams of Support/Breacher/Assault/Ronin and Bastion/Assault/Ronin/Scout

Not a LOT of feedback here as the players focused down the objective and so the enemies didn't get as much playtime, but there were some standouts.

Support: Hardpoints is so damn fun. The Breacher jumped on and it was hi-ho Silver away to ride halfway to the enemy in a fraction of the time it'd take it to do so on its own.

Breacher: Vet trait didn't trigger as it didn't miss full salvos at any point, but also about equivalent levels of misses. Standout moment was the Tortuga jumping up on some size 3 cover to Daisy Cutter the Support and the Breacher, and the Breacher proceeding to power ram through the cover to drop the Tortuga to ground level, then turn around and unload Painkiller quad combo into the Tortuga afterwards, which did manage to trigger Armor Break.

Ronin: Pretty much guy with sword, but one put up a good showing by jumping into the path of the Tortuga's Vanguard 3 Overwatch, surviving taking a shotgun to the face, and landing a full 6 damage Ronin's mark bonus swing for 12 damage before armor. I was sad that his parry didn't fire off. Reactions reacting to Reactions would be funny.

Assaults: Not flashy, but they definitely were noticing the bonus accuracy when targeting PCs standing out of cover. Both the Lancaster and Tortuga lost a structure just due to the Assaults fairly reliable (but not Reliable) damage.

Bastion and Scout didn't get to do much before the objective went up in Sherman lasers

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Quote of the night "Oh, that's why they call it a Breacher."

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Also, thought Veteran Overcharge was going to kill him faster, since he rolled a 5 on his first overcharge die to reload Painmaker menacingly after firing. lol

indigo oasis
#

Ya know what’s great about this rebake? Ultra having a couple tech attacks means stuff like Scorpion comes up more :D

fluid zodiac
#

Scorpion came up plenty for me as-is, fragsig enjoyer that I am

subtle nacelle
fringe peak
#

time for me to get my list out

fringe peak
#

I hAve big feedback list again

indigo oasis
#

Hehe- I forced my friend who wanted to GM a one-mission on a whim to try out the Rebakes, and now he’s using exclusively the rebaked versions >:)

errant needle
#

Honestly, at this point, I've basically swapped over exclusively to the Rebakes as well just due to feeling more comfortable I won't have some jumpscare damage scaling

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Or accuracy scaling, more prominently

subtle nacelle
#

Engi rebake feels goooood. It's a pervasive threat that the PCs have to deal with, but is easy to do so. if left unchecked, the potential 24 damage is vicious

keen topaz
#

a potentially odd thought, something me and one of my players have been thinking on, and have been reignited in trying after seeng the rebake, is basically "NPC war"s where we just throw two NPC OPFORs at each other to get a general feel of the gameplan. im unsure of if that data would at all be useful but i'll send it here if it might be

bold crystal
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I think if you have feedback(ie; there's notable feel differences etc) it wouldn't hurt

languid juniper
#

Operator Rebake feels like it needs to have more health if it's going to be stuck hanging out in easy damage ranges. Base 10 HP plus short range for its class means that even with an extra structure from Veteran or Elite it can be chumped incredibly easily, especially due to still being terminally weak to Slow. Ran it in the finale of Solstice Rain and it managed to be less threatening than and die significantly faster than the Elite Hive Rebake. Also struggles with terrain-heavy maps a lot more than a teleporter probably should.

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Either a little more HP or teleports that handle dense terrain better would keep it from being so easy to just instant kill

bold crystal
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I'm not sure what you mean by 'handle dense terrain better' - teleportation ignores LoS(by default), so you can just go through any obstacle smaller than size 5.

languid juniper
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If it teleports in, it's stuck in and dies instantly.

#

If it hangs out in the open so it can use teleport to move away, it dies before getting the chance

#

10 HP, zero armor, and a not especially great Evasion means if it's reachable, it dies immediately. And its range means if it wants to do anything, it has to be very reachable.

echo wolf
#

It has a defensive trait, also- have you played with it yet?

#

Sorry, phone typing

languid juniper
#

Yeah, it got one-tapped through the trait

echo wolf
#

By whom?

languid juniper
#

Melee Everest with Jump Jets

echo wolf
#

Gotcha, that is important info- TCB or heavy melee weapon?

languid juniper
#

Chainaxe and Heavy Sword

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Plus knife

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Knife lunge from pilot talent negated the reactive teleport

rose hamlet
#

It was discussed upthread at some point, I know that

languid juniper
#

12/14/16 HP would help a lot at making Veteran/Elite/Ultra Operators less papery

indigo oasis
#

Weird suggestion for improving survivability - maybe a speed upgrade? In terms of the base kit it did lose Step, so having some extra speed to both better get out of dodge and split up movement to have more freedom to use the defensive part of Strike and Fade would be nice

languid juniper
#

Even just letting Boost also be a teleport might help

brisk flax
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It will be getting a 2 HP/tier increase

#

Frankly, "the operator has to play around terrain more or it dies" strikes me as a fantastic outcome

fringe peak
#

ok so we have 2 sitreps

Holdout

2 gilgameshes
tortuga
Tokugawa
Sunzi
t1:

Ultra Commander support
Breacher
veteran Pyro
veteran Hive
veteran Assault
Operator
Witch.
Bombard
Specter

Players learned to really enjoy assault, it was able to use stormtrooper and commandoa to quickly close the distance and rush down key targets. The veteran pyro and ultra support were able to pair together and using ontological array, the support was able to make sure things like the brachers shotgun, the thermal charges and napalm bomb were able to land often.

Veteran hive was a really good combo play as it could enable burn to last longer and it let the operators get telefrag off, I slow rolled the sitrep tbh so it was able to keep them coming in piece by piece as different sets of combos.

All in all, the stirep wasll received and the bombards delayed fire move ended up getting half the npcs kileld due to a very potent sunzi activation.

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Control

Gorgon
Gilgamesh
Monarch

2 exotics sentinels
veteran barricade
Elite Cataphract
Commander support.

Also well received, the exotics were close the distance easily and lock down thier points with the asistance of quick march and wrath lock. Using the eye of midnight they were able to lock down the zones and forces enemies to find ways to interact aorund thier optimal range, causing them absorb lots of focus fire.

The catapphract was able to dive deep into their backline, at one point they wree jammed and impaired and they were able to move down towards the support on thier first turn, got a full reboot and then used the movement to get another go a more optimnal zone it could possibly control.

Barricade had some standout moments with drag down and the spiked barrier with mobile printer. Able to seriously deny enemy movement.

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oh also, the ability clear witches effects is fucking awesome

indigo oasis
indigo oasis
fringe peak
#

Generally speaking I found that once they got into melee they could wrath lock to offset engagement penalties with a. Barrage

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Letting them output some serious damages

subtle nacelle
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ah btw sasquatch, maybe i misunderstood, but did you have issues with the LCP i may have missed?

fringe peak
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There's a couple others but I'd have to go through everything and cross reference

subtle nacelle
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awesome! could you make a github issue with these?

spice aspen
#

alright, some collated feedback from one of my groups where we recently fought some rebakes. I'm not sure how to like... lay this all out textually, so I'll just do my best. this is summarized from myself, the GM, and the other players. I'm gonna post these as images so it doesn't flood the chat

image.png image.png
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I can give elaboration or answer any kind of question if desired. I hope this is useful in its own way

indigo oasis
#

Preface- this is just me brain dumping after looking at the feedback given - there’s no actual playtest data in this text dump of mine so idk how helpful it is. I just like talking about this stuff

It’s looking like the lowered range band is what really hit the Operator’s survivability- but it’s more the fact it has to end its turn that close that seems to be hurting it the most.

I kinda feel that some kind of mobility increase would help with that- definitely not Step but something minor that allows its disengagement ability to be a little more meaningful. It’s optionals aren’t really reliable disengagement tools after all- Telefrag is almost strictly an engagement tool, Singularity Grenade is Limited 1, and Fade Generator is 2-8 spaces (which is a non-constant amount) that requires getting hit first.

None of these are bad traits, and not like the Operator needs more, but simply adding HP to the operator feels like it won’t do everything. As is, the best disengagement tool the Operator has is Trace Drive, something that, based on the given feedback, isn’t able to be enough. Increasing its speed just a little might make it be able to lean into its niche better, letting it really Strike and Fade.

Think of it like this- at 6 speed, it could boost just into range of a guy, attack with its Raptor, and then warp exactly outside of range 15 of that target, and anyone with less than a speed of 5 will need to boost to get within range 10 of the operator. Meanwhile, speed 5 suddenly puts the operator on average 1 standard move away from being targetable by a large percentage of weapons. This is… gross oversimplification, terrain plays a big role in putting something between the operator and its foes, but I hope it at least shows the number diff

Strike and Fade may give it some protection in the form of difficulty, but the Operator’s real defense has always been its ability to reposition, as difficulty is trivially easy to overcome (as has been discussed here before)

fringe peak
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As someone whose run recent operator. I do feel like it needs something to help further with positioning

An update to trace drive could work? Since operator has a lost a good portion of defensive and offensive tools. As loosing nova missiles as a barrage option, skirmisher and fade generator has given it a sierious hit.

I do think skirmisher was a little extra but something similiar to striders reposition could feel nice?

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idk, this is just me spitballing

bold crystal
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6 speed or the odd 12 range on the operator's gun might also help.

indigo oasis
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7 speed perhaps if you wanna step on cataphracts toes- which I doubt

rose hamlet
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Having run a similar kind of operator I honestly think it’s a matter of play for the most part

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I think actual playtesting will be more informative

brisk flax
#

in all the recent cases of Operator feedback that's been centered around this sort of thing, the key element has been less mobility and more survivability

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I want to see if an HP bump makes any difference

#

if not, I will look at other elements

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"teleport on boost" is objectively not in consideration, nor is any other baseline teleport, because that would make Strike and Fade largely a superfluous decision

#

so +range or +speed are potentially in the cards, but for now I want to see if just raw More HP does anything

brisk flax
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and also another bit of feedback in favor of "adjust the operator some" so yeah, it'll get some more HP and then if it still feels a bit undertuned I'll look at some other elements, but the one thing I will not be doing is giving it additional baseline ability to teleport

indigo oasis
brisk flax
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In fact, if I can get 15-20 minutes, I think I'll just post an update, I need to get my notes together

brisk flax
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basically, in my personal opinion, the Veteran template is ALREADY samey because I never want to use like 3/4ths of it, so I end up falling back on the same stuff

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limitless, legendary, parting gift, self-repair, lightning reflexes, etc

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every now and then I'll do a cheeky Hacker on something evaluated VERY carefully to ensure it doesn't go overboard with it

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but that's not a very compelling argument for "I should keep all these options" imo

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I don't care for steel jaw or shock armor, I'm sick of acrobat, viper's speed is largely useless, the NHP option IS useless, etc

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currently, Veteran has 5 general picks and 1 class specific trait: that's about as many choices as templates like Mercenary or Exotic or Pirate give

indigo oasis
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Steel Jaw and Acrobat did need to go, yeah

brisk flax
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it's kind of the same thing with grunts: I know some people love picking and choosing which of 30+ NPCs they'll gruntify, whereas I am personally disenchanted with that experience

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and here's the thing, if you like the old veteran template you CAN just use it

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this replacement isn't "old veteran was BROKEN and I am FIXING it," it's "I think old veteran stinks and I'm tired of using it"

indigo oasis
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I personally entertain the idea of using the ditched traits as optionals on the rebakes- I’ve yet to do it but I am entertaining it

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But maybe I’ll want a Support with Insulated sometime idk

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(Definitely gonna put High Impact Rounds on the rebake Assault sometime tho)

brisk flax
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anyway

indigo oasis
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The sudden all caps text made me jump not gonna lie

brisk flax
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so, probably the biggest bits of actionable feedback I have had so far have been focused on the Bombard, the Operator, and the Goliath

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The Bombard got the broadest swathe of changes: all of its special shells now auto-reload upon two characters being targeted instead of three, to be more gracious to GMs with smaller PC parties and make the dynamic a little more operable on both sides

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In exchange, because it may be easier to repeatedly proc things like Earthshaker Shells, it's been adjusted downward somewhat, now only forcing one character to make a prone save

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otherwise my concern is you could "pronelock" parties

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likewise, bunker buster shells has had its difficult terrain effect replaced with a single character forced Shredded save

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The Goliath, by contrast, has merely gotten a Sensors bump from 8 to 10

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The Operator has gotten TWO changes: the first is to its HP, going to 12/14/16, the other is to Fade Generator

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As this optional seems to be underperforming, I've adjusted its output: it now teleports the Operator's Speed (so 5) and you pay a 1d6 heat tax to become Invisible until the start of your next turn, making it a pseudo Reactive Weave

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There have also been some changes to the Grunts, among the the Defender-Type receiving a new reaction ability previewed earlier, as well as changes to the Striker-Type (rifle version) and the Support-Type

indigo oasis
brisk flax
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And on the Ultra end, the only major change is to the HyperDense Blade: this was reported as overperforming damage wise, so instead of double damage, it now has baseline knockback 2 and can stabilize for Accuracy and double knockback

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@carmine idol @subtle nacelle my notes as usual are probably a big fuckin mess, and ESPECIALLY with the Bombard changes, please check the 1.2 master document to see exactly how I wrote it down, because the patchnotes probably suck ass

brisk flax
brisk flax
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Normally I would wait a bit longer between updates: I generally aim for a month between pushing a changelog, but I sort of want to proceed a bit more briskly with this, and if I'm being honest, a lot of the feedback outside of these elements has really been "yeah this is good, worked fine, no notes"

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so far, it doesn't seem like anything's come up which is a serious issue or compounding problems cascading

subtle nacelle
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thank you kai!

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i've been staring at the empty github issues all day so im pretty stoked to dive into this xD

spice aspen
young turtle
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Does the new version have bookmarks

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?

brisk flax
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nope

young turtle
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If not I’ll try and work on those when i have the time

brisk flax
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yeah no worries

simple juniper
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Ok, will only have to adjust the Grunt Defender for tomorrow's game then, no biggie sweating

brisk flax
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the Support-Type got a more substantial overhaul

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Recon Drones is no longer just "a bunch of locks," it's a full action Lock On and then you choose an ally and move them 2 spaces, this is to diversify the unit a bit more away from being a lock on spammer

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I also made some adjustments to the rifle using Striker-Type, it's less explicitly a baby Assault now, just a guy with a gun who if they crit gets to boost (with a splast of extra damage)

plucky patrol
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Which imo is a pretty damning indictment of the state of the CRB vet template on its own

brisk flax
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yeah there's a reason the Operator veteran trait which smushes that + the rodeo master one together (and gives Impaired immunity so it actually does something) makes it cascade-immune

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hardly a novel concept but I think "this NPC has an NHP co-pilot" is territory that deserves its own template

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and if I'm being honest, you can just squint and fake it with a lot of stuff

blissful lion
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I usually use exotic for that, or some combination of that and horror

bold crystal
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slippery also, for vanguard overwatch.

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like half of the veteran optionals are 'fuck with one specific player at your table and possibly completely torpedo their build vs this enemy', and that just kinda sucks.

brisk flax
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yeah

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like idk, I think "the pyro is immune to burn" is sort of baseline telegraphed and therefore Okay

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while "this random NPC is [X] immune/close to it" just sorta stinks

bold crystal
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oh it's a pyro I can't burn it

brisk flax
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like a lot of this loops back to Deathcounter and how my big change to it was "it has a visual cue"

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I think deathcounter is if anything extremely easy to deal with, arguably it may be a BAD optional with how easy it is to work around

blissful lion
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A better telegraph system for optionals would be useful, though it can be a lot of effort for the GM already balancing a couple plates to need to describe the specifics of what a mech that has steel jaw vs shock armour looks like.

brisk flax
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but everybody hates their first time emptying a cyclone pulse rifle into a bastion and getting told "nope"

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AND it doesn't help that GMs apparently aren't telling their players what happened when that occurs

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buddy, you gotta say something!

bold crystal
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Lightning Reflexes is the only trait there that has a real place in the lineup of 'ah, fuck this guy in particular' because it's easier to work around, generally. just use a different mount.

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aux-based builds often do not have that option at all.

blissful lion
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I think it's interesting after the PCs have gotten familiar with the system because there's a risk/reward of "do I try and shoot this bastion now with the AMR or wait for my friend to shoot it with a pistol or just use a different mount to check if they have the optional?"

plucky patrol
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also I would say "I have a heavy mount" is by far the build most deserving of having an optional dedicated to countering it

solid pilot
bold crystal
plucky patrol
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Steel Jaw and Shock Armor are just kinda mean bc your punishing your players for making an already ""suboptimal"" decision because they deigned to shoot something that isn't an HMG

brisk flax
plucky patrol
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precisely yes

brisk flax
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yeah the issue is it's asymmetrical

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heavy weapon users will typically have backup mounts, it's rare someone is all in on a heavy or superheavy platform, and USUALLY if they are it's because they put themselves there

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someone who is an aux focused user will be much more all-in on aux weapons and not have a spare

bold crystal
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and especially gunslinger really encourages doing this.

brisk flax
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"this guy dodges my HMG, better switch to the assault rifle" versus "this guy turns all four of my aux weapons into 1 damage plinks"

bold crystal
plucky patrol
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and its similarly very reasonable for non-damage dealing builds to literally only have main weapons

brisk flax
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it's not even like "oh it's super armor" or something

bold crystal
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yeah! it's not even armor

brisk flax
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not a fan

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so, out it goes

bold crystal
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it's a very rude design that just like. fucks with players and the builds you can expect them to have.

plucky patrol
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I have been happy with its inclusion at my table exactly once (slapped it on a vet goliath to give it a slightly longer lifespan vs my shock knife spam metalmark player)

bold crystal
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I'll even note Lesser Sight here, which is like, theoretically 'fuck with invisible and hidden' but the range means there is an obvious and direct counterplay.

plucky patrol
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everything time I've played with it either fielding it as a GM or encountering it as a player its either been pointless or just felt awful

blissful lion
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Is the counterplay not to attack something else instead?

neon blaze
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I've said this before but if the counterplay is to "ignore the thing" then its bad counterplay

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so I'd not really say it is an acceptable outcome to interaction

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at the very least when it comes to Armor, you can try and get sources of Shred and such - options exist, if rare - while a flat reduction is a flat reduction

bold crystal
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'don't interact with this guy' gets annoying real fast, and like when you slam a hand cannon barrage against the only thing in range and end up plinking it for 1 multiple times, that's just kind of... miserable.

brisk flax
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I think there are arguments to be made about "well I'm not good against this target, I can do something else," but Steel Jaw exists in a context where it can be slapped onto any NPC, it's not "this one NPC the Anti-Gunslinger is specifically coated with Anti-Pistol Armor and that's their deal," Steel Jaw goes on anyone and the broad lattitude to fuck up a fight massively is significantly more fraught and places a serious onus on the GM to walk a tightrope in a way other stuff doesn't ask of them

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it is ALSO specifically a product of Steel Jaw's implementation: as mentioned, it's a flat reduction that applies even to things like Gunslinger 3 and has no real bypass short of, idk, a paracausal pistol

blissful lion
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fair enough

brisk flax
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Argus Armor gives some guy 6 armor, that's enough to blunt most aux weapons into uselessness, but armor has counterplay measures built into it

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also it kind of needs to be said: "fuck aux weapons specifically" is a very weird thing in general

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it doesn't really address some massive tactical discrepancy in lancer, nor does it do anything interesting

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something like the Cataphract's Point-Defense Shield which is "forever resistance against the guy closest to you" is infinitely more interesting because it has actual texture and purpose and interactability, it pushes a specific playstyle, it DOES something