#The NPC Rebake Project and NPC Tinkering Power Zone (NO MULTIATTACKERS ALLOWED)

1 messages · Page 5 of 1

brisk flax
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This is sort of where I'm at

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I obviously don't expect people to slam-pick "5 damage" every time

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my take on the selection is that options like self-damage and losing action econ exist to be situational picks that the GM may choose when they have a plan for that turn which relies on not having their accuracy fucked with, or a plan that only needs the one quick action to make use of, things like that

fringe peak
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the self damage i did find have an...interesting utilty

brisk flax
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Also: certain ultras may not care about Impaired period, if you make an Ultra Support with purely passive/non attack-save stuff, it could be perma-Impaired forever and it wouldn't really matter

fringe peak
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berserker ultra i did on a test game used the self damage to proc aggression

indigo oasis
fringe peak
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it's an interesting combo

neon blaze
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Ultra RPV is an outlier and should not have been counted

brisk flax
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but in that case, the "worst case scenario" is that ultra fundamentally isn't much different from a CRB ultra

indigo oasis
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That, and Superior Construction still prompts multiple costs, so in that case it won’t never not come up

indigo oasis
brisk flax
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I think that without Impaired being one of the choices that debuff clearing WOULD be much more prone to "death spiraling" the ultra out

vale crescent
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My not having yet played with playtests yet so take it with a grain of salt opinion of ultras, I won't be surprised if ultras are slightly less potent than before which TBH is fine and can be made up with the rest of the enemy composition. And probably mostly will struggle in preset/pre-written encounters. Where if you're using a homebrew variant you could just juice the opfor up a tad

brisk flax
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likewise, I didn't want to make heat a baseline choice for that because I feel like it would result in a lot more heatgunning focus

brisk flax
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like

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a lot of the revised ultra is objectively a downgrade in terms of raw power

fringe peak
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i kinda might suggest wanting the ultra unable to choose the impaired option if they're like...iperma impaired as with RPV's but I don't think it's a huge deal.

brisk flax
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going from free condition clear to condition clear as a cost, losing access to immunities, specific tweaks like short-cycle lance, etc

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all of that stuff is fundamentally and inescapably a downgrade in terms of "power"

arctic stag
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its less powerful but also less swingy imo

vale crescent
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It's less BS most importantly

brisk flax
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I should note that my intent isn't really "ultras need a nerf!" so much as "this stuff is not interesting"

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but making things more interesting in this way does often mean you don't get to have that level of flat, raw power anymore

vale crescent
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Make it less BS

arctic stag
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theres more interaction yeah

brisk flax
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also fundamentally, the purpose of an NPC in a tactical game is to get killed

indigo oasis
brisk flax
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as long as revised ultras aren't folding like cheap paper I'm okay with it, and especially because Ultras are not meant to be raid bosses, which I mention in the designer notes

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that hasn't changed, ultras still need support to be part of an effective comp

indigo oasis
fringe peak
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I do like that this makes ultra support class npcs have a little more punch

bold crystal
arctic stag
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i feel like ultras are less centralizing now but i still feel like they can be A LOT of features, idk if that was something u cared about a lot or not tho

brisk flax
arctic stag
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fair enough

indigo oasis
brisk flax
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maybe there is, but I think "this NPC is quasi on par with PCs and has to carry that much weight" inevitably means you have to have a lot of shit crammed into them

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stress, structure, rules to not get hard CC'd to oblivion, action econ, etc

arctic stag
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its just a lot of mini things ime

brisk flax
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my take on NPC complexity is the same as it is for PC complexity (i.e. this Hydra has a million moving parts) which is "you made the sandwich"

arctic stag
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like sure +3 structure, juggernaut

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but the +1d6 on crits has always felt like "blegh"

indigo oasis
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That’s something I hadn’t thought about keeping an eye on, but now that you mention it I agree- that’s probably worth keeping track of and seeing if it should stay. In general- base or optional

brisk flax
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So I considered making Deadly an optional, but I decided not to simply for the reason of "I didn't want it to cost an Ultra optional pick"

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I didn't want to cut it, either

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Without Extra Deadly, multi-attacks, etc all floating around, I think that having it as a default trait shouldn't push things too far out of bounds, and that being said I think it's fine for it to remain a default trait

indigo oasis
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If I manage to play with a Rebake Ultra before publication (so… two missions from now), I’m still gonna keep an eye on that, see and ask how it feels

bold crystal
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compressing how much damage Deadly adds(1d3 or 1d3+1) could also help if it needed a touch.

brisk flax
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I'm not a fan of d3 stuff for bonus damage tbh

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I use it sparingly

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and for the rebake stuff, I tend to just default to 1d6 for bonus damage values across the board (see Retribution)

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the one place I really break from this is with the grunts where I use a much more bounded flat value for the striker-type

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and artillery-type

vale crescent
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I do find it odd how the GM NPC running side says "Don't roll damage for NPCs, it's fixed values" and then see abilities to ask to roll for damage

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I dunno how much of a difference said abilities would be if it was fixed damage values like 3/4/5, but TBH I think it makes such a small difference anyway

brisk flax
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The lessened predictability is, imo, a deliberate element of that

vale crescent
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Understandable

indigo oasis
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Ultras are player analogs, which means they ignore the rules sometimes (comedy)

vale crescent
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Ronins have been breaking the rules since release

brisk flax
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I look at it less as "this is to show them breaking the rules" and more for it to be a thing that players can't simply rely on mathing out as cleanly

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the bonus damage is dangerous in that it's less of a given, set value

indigo oasis
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It’s meant to scare Pegasus players (joke)

vale crescent
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Nothing is as terrifying as a Ronin that deals 12 damage out of nowhere, but also struggles with a mere 7

indigo oasis
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I mean that’s why Deadly is kinda just there rather than giving a lot of power

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Even with the CRB Ultra, Deadly wasn’t really a massive part of its power budget

brisk flax
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yeah basically

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and with the shaving down of a lot of other random variance spikes (multi-attacks mainly, Extra Deadly, etc, clarifying that "deals double damage" won't double bonus damage, etc) I feel like Deadly is fine to just be a default ultra trait

indigo oasis
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You could argue that the intent of the rebake Ultra template is to be compatible with the CRB and Rebake NPCs, but that feels like being pedantic at that point

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Base Ultra still has Deadly after all

brisk flax
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oh, and the other thing to test would obviously be the new additions, if anyone is interested

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like the new ultra weapons, systems, etc

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"does this suck or not"

indigo oasis
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Hm, small curiosity: any reason behind the removal of High Impact Rounds on Assault? I personally liked the ability to turn the HMG into a loading weapon due to how rare loading is for NPCs, and with the changes to the Assault’s HMG the benefits of the Feature seemed more fair

brisk flax
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like yeah the dynamic is somewhat of an interesting one turning a repeatable attack into a loading attack, BUT also it's part and parcel of the CRB assault being just sort of There design-wise

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of the generic optionals, I feel Rank Discipline is the better pick

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nothing about a cover check NPC feels like it needs or wants a "turn this gun into a loading weapon" optional

indigo oasis
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Imo it gives the Assault a better way to “exploit opportunities”. It won’t always have targets out of cover each turn, so stabilize off turns to reposition (especially after using Hunker Down) plus the ability to make a single shot count when it does have an open shot feels like an interesting dynamic that works better with the rebake than the CRB Assault .

But those could easily be argued to be too potent/too much too, or not really working in practice

haughty venture
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As someone who hasn't even run a game of lancer, just looked at the books, this talk is fascinating.

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I dunno, I always find discussions of game mechanics very interesting so thank you for making it public.

fringe peak
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lancers balacning imo works best when npcs create sorta...combat puzzle boxes if that makes sense?

smoky bluff
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Yeah I get you, it's like when there are specific ways you can make use of mechanics to get a result of what you want

So you need to kill a target, but a bastion friendly interdiction them, so you need to separate them with a tool that isn't damage

Many ways to go about this

Paracausal damage, knockback, hor_us_1 are just the most common ways to do it

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Hell, just having another person do the attacking works too

eternal jasper
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Ultra Fight was fast - so fast that I gotta run another in the near future to give it another go, but wanted to document for posterity ... Budgeted on the low end I think; party stomped it between lower power, smart objective plays (sent the high-speed Blackbeard and tanky White Witch after objectives), and wickedly Stormtrooper-level Attack + Recharge rolls on my end; lesson learned to be meaner next time, hahaha

Overall, I'm a fan of the changes; Bastion feels much more supportive of and reliant on its allies, Support's speed let it pull off supporting much easier, Assassins worked better with Supports as a tag-team, Sniper felt less violently oppressive, and Ultra, while it lost power, feels more engaging to run and fight against. Juggernaut and Auto-Repair costs seem fine - they're a noticeable nerf, especially with me losing the Sniper's weapon twice, but my party opted for heatgunning to take advantage of Auto-Repair's costs. It's also less immediate overhead, which is always welcome.

The Deets:
Custom sitrep [QA while adjacent to a 3x3 control zone without baddies to clear it, 5 zones]. LL3 players, all good on repairs/HP/structure/stress, casual-ish skill level / very beer-and-pretzels folks:

  • Mimic gun/smartgun/integrated nexus/ushabti Pegasus
  • TCB/Charged Blade White Witch
  • Auxoholic/Hand Cannon Raleigh
  • Aux spam/Charged Blade Amber Phantom
  • Nanocarbon/double Chain Axe Blackbeard

Opfor:

  • Ultra Sniper – Defensive Grapple, Orbital Eye, Shift Sights
  • Size 3 Veteran Hive – Flier, Abrade [size 3/Flier for narrative reasons]
  • 3 Bastions – Stack Up, Fearless Defender
  • 2 Assassins – Spinning Kick
  • 2 Supports – Desant Hardpoints
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ULTRA: Auto-Repair came in clutch because my poor Sniper lost his weapon twice 😭 Picked Heat both times since I thought I could get away with it (no hackers), but two high rolls spelled doom; with my Structure roll luck (or lack thereof) and a Pankrati charge right next to the Sniper, really felt the loss of free Juggernaut / Auto-Repair. Not in a bad way, though; meant I had to get more creative with positioning to keep dodging potshots. Forgot to use Deadly on two crits, which hurts in retrospect.

SNIPER: Grapple got 1 use thanks to low Recharge rolls, but still helped a ton. Gun and Mark changes were very noticeable - had to rely on Orbital Eye's / Support's Lock-On much more. Encouraged more teamwork between Sniper and its allies; good change! In hindsight, woulda used Moving Target for Assasins

BASTION: Stack Up feels great, as does ally-loaded Launcher. More team-focused! Ferrying buddies around came in clutch, whether they were slower Supports en route to an objective or Assassins chasing players around. Party focused down the Bastions instead of their wards, so no Fearless Defender use 😔

SUPPORT: Did not get to ferry my poor sniper around with Desant Hardpoints, but the additional speed point's a good change; much easier to reposition. Carrying allies made it easier to Ram a player Prone and immediately sicc an Assassin on them

ASSASSIN: So many missed hits, even with Prone and Lock-On. But! With how easy Prone came this fight, the Assassin relied on its buddies to set up combos, rather than purely lone wolfing it.

HIVE: Low rolls, smart PC movement, and a near-immediate Limitless Overcharge -> Exposed -> 34 Kinetic of TCB gave the Hive a short lifespan, but in that lifespan, having one mobile swarm made objective control much easier. Losing a space off Drone Barrage made it less oppressive; players willingly opted for 4 spaces of movement, rather than defaulting to Immobilized like normal [Assassin presence may have had a hand in this choice].

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If I've got the time / can strongarm some pals into it, I'd like to run the fight again with meaner optionals on the Sniper (Moving Target and Nova Missiles on the Sniper come to mind, since I spent at least one turn a round Stabilizing when I had that damn Rifle) and see if it changes much -- but, there's the cliffnotes on how tonight's first attempt went

brisk flax
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Thanks, I appreciate the writeup and the details

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That's a very interesting note re: Drone Barrage and the movement reduction, which I did mainly for parity with Driving Swarm (one being 5 spaces, the other being 4 feels like a thing designed to make GMs forget which is which)

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one point of movement making that much of a difference in the PC calculus on whether to take it or not is something I wouldn't necessarily have assumed would be the case

eternal jasper
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For sure, parity is always welcome — Half of the choice was because Assassins on the field made the PCs wary of Immobilized, due a Bastion or Support ferrying a Heated Blade directly to any Immobilized players, and half because that party’s a buncha devious speed freaks

brisk flax
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I also think it's very funny how many people are going "oooh, veterans get limitless" and immediately turning their NPCs into a nuclear football

eternal jasper
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Guilty as charged lmfao, “just one more tech” calls to me like the green goblin mask

fathom root
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@brisk flax
been testing out the new npc rebakes, using a pyro, hive, witch, and operator. All vets and spec ops, with the operator being a commander. There was another spec op vet and ultra, homebrew classes but rebaked templates. MAp was a corridor-room type place with floor to ceiling walls, so big line of sight cutoffs.

Players were LL7 and all enemies T2. here's impressions from both me and PCs so far:

VETERAN

  • HAving innate overcharge is a nobrainer and almost every players find it fitting to be a typical veteran loadout. I find it to be fitting as well.
  • For both me and players, not having Acrobat as an option Vet is a big dealbreaker because acrobat does change up a lot and make slower enemies more threatening, which is useful in actually making vets threatening

ULTRA

  • HAving the ultra be more punished for weapon breaking is seen as a positive for me and players, as it gives players more survivability rather than just having the Ultra tank every hit
  • All found the heavy blade optional overtuned, especially when combined with supreme melee as it means the ultra cna grapple someone, and on the next turn pretty much guarantee a structure via protocol immobilise. I myself found the damage potential at T2 enough of a threat without having to double the damage. Suggestions was to reduce the damage potential (double hit on crit was fine), perhaps protocol to make it a double hit

PYRO

  • Pyro having the firebreak shield having some actual fire damage is fun and players find it to make sense as well. They were either risking going through it to get the pyro, or shoving other NPCs into the flames. Overall ran pretty well.
  • Some find the change from napalm bomb as a reload weapon to save recharge disappointing since it puts the usage to chance rather than forcing a stabilise on the Pyro, which meant it would have to clear heat and make the heat dump less dangerous

HIVE

  • Having the swarm move innately is seen as a no-brainer and expected. the fact the one drone movement optional with the move save is seen as 50/50, as it does give more utility to make hives more menacing but gave grief to the Kidd
  • Both players and me disappointed with inability to have more than one razor swarm, with me and players wanting more swarms to be on the field. Players suggested having 2 razors be at least a vet optional as it allows hive to be threatening rather than an easily avoidable mech
  • the difficulty on checks by receiving burn, players view it should clear upon clearing burn rather than end of turn, as it feels like something being applied via the burn.

WITCH

  • Having the brace clarification was well-received as people oft forget about it, and players found the Danger Zone clause to be a good exception for both it and blur
  • Immolate was a 50/50 as some find it unfitting for the witch either due to it being burn rather than heat. Some find the danger zone clause on it to be acceptable
  • it's a witch, they targetted it first and it was first to die, as expected

OPERATOR

  • Telefrag being a quick means more usage, and the damage boost via shredding is appreciated, as well as the 5 space teleport afterwards
  • Players and me find the accuracy/difficulty via teleporting to be fitting
  • With lowered sensors and lowered raptor range, players find it to be too much of a striker rather than a mobile artillery, and would prefer it to have a longer range even if with the reduced damage to make it still be an artillery
  • really, my main problem is that with the lower ranges, it feels far more striker than artillery. both players and me prefer it to be more artillery than striker in loadout (longer range, sensors)
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tldr: Operator feels too much like a striker, Hyperdense Blade is too much damage potential even for high HP armoured players, Hive needs more than one swarm, and Acrobat is reallllly wanted

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oh, pyro 2 heat vet skill is fine

brisk flax
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so a few things off the bat:
1). Acrobat won't be returning, ever, period. That one's just not gonna happen, I dislike it immensely and have consigned it to the trashbin for that reason
2). Similarly, I will not be up-ranging the Operator. Artillery is largely an arbitrary designation in lancer anyway. Why is the Sherman artillery? Because it has one long range gun in its license? "What role is this NPC" when it comes to artillery versus striker is frankly a pretty meaningless distinction, and the explanation resides within the designer notes for it. "It works fine but it's the wrong role" is not something I'm going to be really concerned with. Longer range artillery is the province of other units
3). I'm also not going to give the Hive more razor swarms, again for reasons outlined in the notes

fathom root
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oh, interactions with spec-ops template:

  • overall alright, it's spec ops, and players brought things against invis so they can deal with it well enough
fathom root
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oh well

brisk flax
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I mean I've been pretty up front about things like Acrobat

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I'm similarly not going to be moved by "I think the Assault should get its reliable damage back" for the same reason

indigo oasis
# fathom root 1. Shame 2. Shame 3. Shame

You can always use the non-rebaked versions, they still exist and the rebakes are designed to co-exist with them. Maybe even cross class here and there for your own personal usage

brisk flax
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also the rebake NPCs have more allied movement facilitation splashed throughout the roster and many of the slower NPCs have movement stuff in their kits now

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Demolishers get one, Pyros get a way to auto-recharge explosive jets, goliaths can overlap terrain, bastions have stack up, scouts have pathfinger, ultras have sidereal realignment, there's probably other stuff I'm missing

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Acrobat is frankly dumb

plucky robin
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Part of the issue with Acrobat was always that it was too easy a default. It took no special actions, it took no investment. It was just 'Congrats, your NPC has gone from Very Slow to Decently Fast'

brisk flax
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"this trait gives you up to 6 extra no-cost movement per turn, plus more on off-turn boosts" is massively flattening

indigo oasis
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There’s also Overcharge Boost from Veteran- it sinks actions but that’s what that’s there for

brisk flax
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Re: the hyperdense blade, that's something worth noting and I'll look at that. I am admittedly to hear that "7 damage on this attack at Tier 2 is sufficiently threatening on its own," though I suppose that's taking the barrage into account. If I do remove the double damage clause, I'm not sure I'll lower the damage on top of that, but that's good feedback in general w/r/t supreme melee

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re: Electro-Nanite Payloads (as I assume this is what's being referred to in regards to difficulty via receiving burn) I'm probably going to leave it as is mainly for standardization, changing it to being linked to The Clearing Of Burn is one additional thing for GMs to have to carve an exception for versus lancer's two typical end of/start of turn temporary state timings, when there are exceptions to this sort of thing I feel it should be significantly more impactful than Electro-Nanite Payloads (such as Lock/Hold Javelins or Break Armor etc)

indigo oasis
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Is it a safe guess to say that an avoided fix will be making any of the Ultra weapons superheavies?

fathom root
brisk flax
fathom root
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I feel the double damage is unnecessary

brisk flax
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their particular note involves two turns of actions anyway

indigo oasis
brisk flax
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I think if I felt there was a compelling reason for it I might

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arguably, making the blade superheavy could theoretically trade off the double damage by making it a "barrage with two weapons equivalent"

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was the ultra double-weapon barraging?

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that is, was it doing the sword on top of another weapon?

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the issue though is it makes swinging the single-damage version of the sword sort of unappealing

fathom root
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since while the superheavy could structure one person, the heavy could structure two

Since both need a setup of being close to the enemy

brisk flax
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re: napalm bomb becoming a system, I actually sort of did that on purpose because if I'm being honest, I have very rarely ever found Explosive Vent to be that big of a gamechanger on the Pyro to begin with, and Napalm Bomb being a reload weapon which mandatorially forces the Pyro to clear heat to reload it has further devalued that ability

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it's not, imo, an interesting enough choice dynamic for me to really be concerned about keeping it

indigo oasis
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Yeah I was of the same mind at first, but then I realized how not-synergetic it was in the first place for a Pyro with a Heat Clear Full Action to have a Loading Weapon

fathom root
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i think with pyro being a vet, it is easy enough to run over to someone who was flamed +2 heat before and dump its heat on it

indigo oasis
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(Tho I am normally in favor of more Loading on NPCs)

brisk flax
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I mean it's easier NOW yeah given the radius on Explosive Vent is expanded

indigo oasis
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Kind of a case of compounding buffs

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Don’t Need to Stabilize for Napalm Re-Use + Explosive Vent Buff + All Vets Having Limitless = Napalm OC Loop

Whether that’s a problem remains to be seen but all those buffs do compound on each other

fathom root
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mhm

indigo oasis
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However- 2 aspects of those are optional

brisk flax
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In general pyros have, in my experience, struggled to leverage explosive vent to do much unless the GM is really determined to make that their goal, and doing so is rarely ever as worthwhile as just flamethrowering people more

indigo oasis
indigo oasis
brisk flax
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also fundamentally: this is another good reason to bin Acrobat

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"this super slow NPC is dangerous if it gets close to you" does not need "and here's a super easy way to make that happen in self-contained fashion"

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re: the witch and immolate, what can I say, it's Last Argument of Kings

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"hacks that can cause you burn" are a thing that's been in the game for a while

fathom root
brisk flax
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so it goes

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The big takeaway here (in terms of stuff I feel like I'm going to want to dig down into) is the hyperdense blade, I appreciate the feedback and thanks for putting that through its paces

indigo oasis
fathom root
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ahhhh, players and a hatred of scanning, name a better duo

brisk flax
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lots of people don't find lots of things fun

fathom root
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i do enjoy the witch being a danger-zone specific controller

brisk flax
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"this thing overperformed" imo budges the needle more

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and if immolate wasn't doing that then I'm inclined to chalk it up to taste

fathom root
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since it gives some of the nuccav guys pause

brisk flax
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yeah that was part of it

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the witch has always ostensibly been "anti nuclear cavalier" as part of its remit

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the rebake just formalizes it some

indigo oasis
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Big fan of that btw. It’s an opinion I’ve heard before that “being in Danger Zone is punishment enough, adding ways to punish it is excessive”, which is something that gave me a lot of pause first time I heard it. Having the rebake show there are tasteful ways to do it gives me some hope for my own ideas

brisk flax
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I'm not sure I would agree being in the danger zone is punishment much of the time

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like yeah it means "you're closer to overheating" BUT mechs that put themselves in the DZ are generally doing so in controlled fashion with tools to curate it

brittle cipher
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anyone who's ending up in the DZ is doing so for payoff

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95% of the time

brisk flax
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I don't think it needs to be punished exactly but, like

brittle cipher
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the other 5% the GM is spamming basic invade

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but most of the time its people doing OC/Nuccav/Toku shit

brisk flax
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"this mech has some nasty tricks against the nukecav OC loopers of the world" isn't, I think, more punitive than "this mech is good against Invisible enemies" or "this guy is really good against armored targets"

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Dark Cloud aside, the thing is that the punishment of the rebake witch isn't "just slather more heat onto them"

brittle cipher
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I think that sometimes Icarus deserves to experience the unmatched power of the sun

brisk flax
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I think "punish DZ guys by cranking up the heat" would be less well received

plucky robin
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hides the NPCs I made that are Actively Designed to Eat Nuke Cav Players

brisk flax
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also part of it is that for a long time the witch has been characterized as "the guy to punish low heat cap blackbeards" and such

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without much else in the catalogue to address "high heat cap OC" type guys until the Spite came along, which does so in a more roundabout fashion

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the rebake witch is obviously still a threat to low heat cap units but I wanted to broaden its remit out beyond preying on the "weaker" targets

plucky robin
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I like that as I feel like the witch was often just a 'Heat Cap Check'. As so many of its things read: 'On Hit: The Blackbeard loses a stress.' XD

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Which it's not not now

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But it's not just that.

bold crystal
# plucky robin Part of the issue with Acrobat was always that it was *too* easy a default. It t...

(yeah, if it was something like 'full action take some heat you get to go extra fast for a bit' it would be a lot more of a choice... but the rebake gives the demolisher an optional that kind of just does that, and, to be honest, veteran acrobat demolisher is practically a meme on account of how many get fielded - it's not used for nearly as many other NPCs, ime.)
(so it's not necessary to keep acrobat specifically.)

plucky robin
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'Welcome to demolisher training. We are going to teach you how to do a cartwheel, like every other demolisher pilot'

brisk flax
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like from a design intent perspective, I think it can be taken as a given that if a certain veteran trait isn't present in the revised template, one of the primary reasons among anything else is "I, the designer, personally do not like it"

ebon trenchBOT
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< - #1 Acrobat hater

brisk flax
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Heavy Melee
Knockback 2, Reliable 2/3/4
+2/4/6
Threat 2
6/7/8 kinetic damage
On Critical Hit: The target is knocked Prone, and the Ultra can make another attack against a different target within range. Only one additional attack can be made this way per turn.

If the Ultra adopts a stabilized stance as a protocol and becomes Immobilized until the start of their next turn, attacks with this weapon gain +1 Accuracy and deal double Knockback on hit.``` hmm
blissful lion
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the 'another attack' on crit - is that only with the blade? or with any weapon they have?

brisk flax
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with the sword

low barn
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This all looks great im gonna run a game using this and see how my groups likes the new rulesets and enemies

vale crescent
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Oh has the double damage been cut?

indigo oasis
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Looks like it

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Replaced with Double Knockback and Reliable, which tbh sounds a lot more interesting

blissful lion
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Stablised stance to attack as burst 2 intensifeyes

indigo oasis
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Since an Avenger rebake was released, what would y’all make the Avenger Veteran Trait be?

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(And maybe other expansion NPCs)

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Rough idea, but maybe being able to Mark whichever character triggers Revenge and being able to Follower Count boost towards them, or have some sort of Rapid Response style reaction against them? Since Veteran guarantees extra structure making the Veteran Feature entirely dependent on Revenge seems fair since more durability on the Avenger = higher likelihood of outliving allies = higher odds of trigger Revenge

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Maybe Lurker can move its Umbral Shrouds as a protocol instead of placing a new one (but it’s in essence the same ability as placing one, so if it somehow takes another turn during a round it can’t place a new Shroud or move any shrouds- they share the 1/round limitation)

#

Perhaps Spite could take a leaf out of Aegis’s book and be slowed instead of immobilized when doing the no clear heat curse, but that feels unoriginal

#

And Strider could gain overshield when swapping kits perhaps?

rose hamlet
#

Give Feign Death to a buddy EDIT: this is stealable, take it if you like it

indigo oasis
#

And probably better balanced around the general veteran traits

#

Leech could perhaps upgrade its Leech cover to Hard Cover, or gain the option to redirect damage it would take to whoever they’re riding if they’re allied

vale crescent
#

Oh fuck

#

That's lethal, like optionally that's real good when riding a defender but also lethal when riding a hostile

manic sky
#

(positive)

indigo oasis
#

A sorta jump ship ability

rose hamlet
#

Weird idea is “when someone with a Leech hits with (or is hit by) a melee attack, the Leech can change who it’s grappling” but that’s niche lol

indigo oasis
#

Meanwhile the Spite or Lurker could have fun taking from Operator and getting something AI related

#

Oh that’s interesting

neon blaze
#

so its worth giving a spin

indigo oasis
neon blaze
#

I've been writing my own Vet traits for my Price of War NPCs and so far none of them have triggered (and only one of them was because i forgot to trigger it)

rose hamlet
#

Consider also: Mark 1 of the leech optionals as Veteran instead, like the “shares a turn” one. Since Leech has more than 5 optionals I mean

indigo oasis
#

Perhaps

rose hamlet
#

And the share-a-turn optional is one of the stronger ones iirc, so you don’t want it en masse. Like would you want that on 4 grunt leeches?

indigo oasis
#

Personally I’m not a fan of optionals that interact with other optionals but it’s not a bad idea in this case

#

Ya know if I had to pick another Expansion NPC to rebake in case anyone got bored, it’d be the spite, purely because it has Crush Targeting as an optional and that’s Goliath’s thing

#

That, and some of the Spite Traits like Insidious Prison and Carceri feel like they about trying to make Imprison more dangerous in not the best way. Overcharge is already punishing when you can’t clear heat so idk if I’d ever use Insidious Prison, and Carceri feels like overkill

#

Actually- Carceri is fine, it’s just Insidious Prison I raise an eyebrow at

#

That and I don’t have practical experience with Spites so ???????

vale crescent
#

Wait

#

This talking about leech's made me realise if you start movement with a leech bound it can overwatch you

#

Crazy

indigo oasis
#

Oh that’s hilarious

rose hamlet
#

Whomever asked what paired talons was for: you have your answer now

#

Meanwhile, Leech continues to fail to shake my Defender allegations

indigo oasis
indigo oasis
vale crescent
#

🤔

#

I mean defenders are just controllers

rose hamlet
vale crescent
#

Defendersa re controllers with good survivability

rose hamlet
vale crescent
#

Mostly not serious lmao

rose hamlet
#

Because I have my own definition of defenders that I will admit may not be universal

vale crescent
#

My definition of defender is "make it harder to shoot my allies" or "make it harder to capture a point I'm on"

#

I am controlling the enemies bullets to hit my face and not my friend

#

I am controlling this point because if anyone says otherwise I will smack them with this MASSIVVE hammer

rose hamlet
#

My definition of Defender (Damage) is “manage and deter incoming damage to the team” and Defender (Objective) is “hold the point and keep the opponent off”

Controller by contrast is “actively debuff/defuse enemy action economy” while support is “buff/restore the allied action economy”

#

Mind you I’m not saying Leech is Defender and not Controller/Support, I’m saying it’s also got heavy Defender tendencies on top of those tools

vale crescent
#

Yeah fair, I think the more fuzzy you make the definition the more hazy and largger the venn diagrams become

#

Every NPC is either a DPS or a controller

#

Actually no

#

Every NPC is a controller

#

DPS just control the players health

#

Everything in this game is either a controller NPC or a downtime action and you can't change my mind

#

/j

#

But I will elaborate on it if you want me to

rose hamlet
#

No thank you

#

I know exactly how to get to “everything is a downtime action” though (with horrifyingly tortured reasoning)

vale crescent
#

I want to ask but I also hope that I can trust you see my reasoning

rose hamlet
#

Ask in GM corner or a pm so we can get this thread back on track lol

vale crescent
#

Fair

rose hamlet
#

I should setup a #1278064902958747699 playtest sometime soon to test rebakes and my own stuff tbh

indigo oasis
rose hamlet
#

It’s a control tool with frequent overlap with defenders

fringe peak
#

I gotta check out seeder later. I hope it's funny

strange trellis
#

I know I'm missing something, but how do I download all the rebake content for playtesting?

surreal zenith
#

#1334655875679260692 message
pdf

lcp is... i forget

strange trellis
#

I found the readme on the github and see the files are done, but I don't have the tech literacy to know how to download from it and I wouldn't want to manually compile the files if current ones already exist

indigo oasis
strange trellis
#

Thanks! 1.15.3?

indigo oasis
#

Yep!

strange trellis
#

Nice thank you, do I need to download the source code?

subtle nacelle
#

no, that's not necessary

#

just the .lcp files

strange trellis
#

Thanks all!

subtle nacelle
#

next version, 1.16.0 should include the grunt rebake

#

been waiting for some free time to review valk's contribution there

strange trellis
#

I haven't been able to follow the development at all so I'm not abreast of any of the current feedback

last blade
#

jumping off earlier discussions about the avenger and strider, I'm curious to hear people's thoughts on the lurker. in my group's experience, especially if played smartly and/or with multiple instances, their survivability is pretty exceptional. just by entering the scene or with a protocol (so, fairly reliably) they can set up a shroud zone that grants them invisibility and resistance, and with optionals can either create them as a reaction or empower them, making it even harder for players to ever catch them out of their shroud (which in itself already has an above average e-def target)

indigo oasis
#

I’m bout to run one for the first time soon so I am looking forward to that and seeing how they play

#

On paper, and from second hand experience, they seem like a near perfect NPC to me

#

Slow to start, and if you don’t let them setup they’re pretty much helpless- but as soon as they get going they become dangerous very fast. The fact you can directly attack their Shroud Zones is also fantastic counterplay

last blade
#

the issue one of my players have fielded (which I think has some merit) is that if you don't have a smart weapon/hacker, the lurker becomes very difficult to dislodge from its shroud zone (and so makes it a very strong defender, in the 'holding a point' vein). even if you do have someone who has a smart weapon/invested into systems (which tbf, is fairly likely), the shroud zone's e-def is still respectable enough that they can quite feasibly whiff clearing the zone

#

and, having spent (probably a quick) on clearing the zone, they would under most circumstances only have another quick to dispatch the lurker, before it potentially takes its turn to instantly re-up the shroud

#

I don't think it's impossible to catch it out of their zone, but it does seem to require much more player focus/coordination than other NPCs do to counter

indigo oasis
#

You would be impaired most likely when attempting to do so however

#

The Lurker is pretty oppressive when you put it like that, I won't deny

#

But perhaps that's the point- some NPCs happen to demand more attention than others, and I think Lurker is fine to be no exception

#

All the Wallflower NPCs sans Strider seem to have a "ignore me and you die" kinda vibe to them

manic sky
#

I think you don't necessarily need to have a hacker, edef 10 isn't hard for a lot of players to hit

indigo oasis
#

Unfortunately you can't lock onto the shroud zones, so on average it's a 50% roll to those without investment, with little ways to boost it

#

Tho, most teams on average have at least 1 smart weapon or tech attacker

brisk flax
#

I think, personally, that "soft cover + invisibility + resistance" is a lot of compounding stuff going on and I don't actually think it really needs all of that, and I also don't think that I care much for the optionals

#

The Lurker in a number of respects feels like a reiteration of the Hornet conceptually, not 1-1, but "this guy has super high defenses unless you do the specific thing" has kind of already been done

trail pivot
#

i've always mentally had a shotgun pointed at the second weapon, but also as a gm for as much as i've used it, ive sat to myself and gone "you know i just kind of think these optionals are boring"

indigo oasis
#

I just noticed that their Whip does 8 damage at tier 1 too goshdang. It does lack any accuracy bonuses at base but that suprasses the Berserker, ya know the guy who can hit their own allies

brisk flax
#

Establishing zones and teleporting between them, using them as a form of ablative defense, that's pretty good and I like the broad outline, but it being in service of "this guy is made of tissue paper and you need to hack them" is kinda like eh whatever

brisk flax
#

I think there's a lot of potential interesting ground to be had playing with the shroud zones but what's there isn't very enticing imo

indigo oasis
#

If I had to guess why, it's cause the Shroud Zones themselves were too frontloaded with their abilities and so there wasn't much room to add more stuff without it getting ridiculous

trail pivot
#

i do sit there and wonder and go "damn they really do get 4 times the effective hp"

last blade
indigo oasis
#

Cause now that I'm looking at it again, yeah, invis + soft cover + resistance + shred and impair on enemies in the zones is kinda bonkers

trail pivot
#

as much as people talked of how bad specter was, at least the mf didnt scale hp or have resistance,

fathom root
#

i love lurkers, it is very much a "ok, priority target" type of mech

trail pivot
#

and you could still like, use armor to reduce what the specter had going on

#

lurker is just

#

"nah get in here and lose that armor

fathom root
#

since it's relatively short range, unless you let it set up

#

in which case it's really on the PC's end on letting it set up intact

indigo oasis
#

The resistance and shred could probably be ditched pretty safely in a rework

trail pivot
#

as a single enemy yeah but like

last blade
trail pivot
#

i've literally never fielded more than 1 at a time

#

because all the experiences i had with "there's 2" is

fathom root
trail pivot
#

"oh that sure is multiplicative movement"

#

and i know that

last blade
#

the problem I think is that they work too well if there's more than one

fathom root
#

which is their point imo

trail pivot
#

"Yeah i'd tbk them if i used these gfuys like i used berserkers"

fathom root
#

capable of kidnapping you if you let them set up

trail pivot
#

the problem is that, as a gm, my npcs are always set up, and lurkers if i used like other melee npcs, would probably tpk

last blade
#

'set up' in this case isn't very hard for them, IMO

#

all it takes is a protocol

trail pivot
#

start of combat actually

last blade
#

if they start out close to where they're defending (e.g. gauntlet) that's already all done

indigo oasis
#

I like the idea of them being able to support each other like that theoretically, but if that was the intent Lurkers should not be that potent as is- like I have not looked at Lurker's stats, really looked at them, for a while, and these rebake discussions are making me notice things I wouldn't normally have noticed- such as Lurkers being kinda good at everything, especially damage dishing

last blade
#

yeah

trail pivot
#

like i'd probably kill the shred for starters

#

i dont know why thats there

brisk flax
#

The Lurker is also weird because:
1). They're slow (Speed 3)
2). They're close-ranged (threat 3 at highest)
3). They use shrouds to teleport to augment this, but
4). Shrouds can only be dropped as a protocol

neon blaze
#

my experience with Lurkers as an NPC both on the GM and player side has largely been "jeeze thats a lot of defences, this thing is just not worth fighting" and thus mostly we just walk away from it rather than actually dispel the cloud

brisk flax
#

(or through certain optionals)

neon blaze
#

because what is it gonna do, chase us?

brisk flax
#

this is kind of the issue I think hinders them some which is Barricade Syndrome:

#

the cube being a protocol makes it hard to really leverage that as a useful tool

#

likewise, shrouds as a protocol means if you, as a lurker, want to move towards a target, you have to leave the safety of your shroud

bold crystal
#

frankly a lurker that could drop shrouds as a quick would be even more nightmarish

brisk flax
#

and you can't drop another until the start of your turn

indigo oasis
#

In theory, I think dropping as a protocol is a good way to reign in the teleportation- requires the Lurker to set up the Shroud Zone rather than move, drop the shroud, then warp to it for a free dash. It's a pretty flawed hold back now that I think about it tho

brisk flax
neon blaze
#

It's kind of like a Demolisher in that regard of it being able to hold a point or section of the map but unlike a Demolisher, if it moves away from a shroud, it just gets beaten to death because now its lost the defence

bold crystal
neon blaze
#

so the correct answer is to just not move it

brisk flax
#

everything about the lurker, mechanically and textually, informs you STAY IN THE SHROUD ZONE, NEVER GO OUTSIDE

neon blaze
#

and thus the correct answer for players, yes, is to just ignore the Lurker until there is literally no other choice

fathom root
brisk flax
#

but that's the only way for a slow melee enemy to do anything unless the idea is, yeah, it's a zone controller

indigo oasis
#

The stat block does make it read like it crawls across the map rather than sprints

bold crystal
#

from my experience with lurkers it's just really miserable to fight them even if you have something like the annihilation nexus which can swing at shrouds and the lurker at the same time

brisk flax
#

and IF it's a zone controller, what is the teleport-between-shrouds really intended for?

neon blaze
#

really I feel the teleport is only there for Lurker parasitism, frankly

brisk flax
#

this thing isn't gonna be wandering between control points

brisk flax
neon blaze
#

"if you get more of this NPC suddenly they can gang up and jump you"

bold crystal
#

yup! and because of how they work multiple lurkers gets stupid fast

brisk flax
#

I think the unspoke assumption is it's PRIMARILY a multi-lurker thing

#

and I don't really care for it

bold crystal
#

line of sight teleport? oops there's three of them on top of you now

fathom root
#

i think having it be a multi lurker thing is pretty neat idea

indigo oasis
#

I can see wanting to just completely axe the paratism concept in a rebake. It's a fun concept but it doesn't seem like a good idea to have as just a standard ability/assumption

fathom root
#

since again, it's a rather easy invade to dispel a shroud, so you are incentivised to take care of those nearby

brisk flax
#

I think there's actually a pretty compelling argument that NPC parasitism is bad, there's a reason multiple snipers can't share a single sniper's mark, and I don't think it benefits the lurker to break that

neon blaze
#

its def a thing i've never tried or tested because frankly a single Lurker was oppressive enough when engaged that I had no interest in using multiple in a scene

bold crystal
#

I think one of the Lurker Issues is honestly just that the shroud zones have such relatively high edef - it's already an action tax to dispel the defense, having the chance to fail be that high makes it annoying

indigo oasis
neon blaze
#

though I just, wasn't impressed period with the Lurker, or most of the Wallflower NPCs really

indigo oasis
#

And then you can be impaired, the Lurker can easily re-up them, etc

brisk flax
#

As Reconus' experience has noted, I think a lot of the time the smart play is "just ignore the lurker tbh"

fathom root
last blade
neon blaze
#

I feel any problem that can be solved by ignoring the problem

#

is a bad problem

#

so unless you're doing Control or Gauntlet or whatever, have fun

fathom root
neon blaze
#

I mean you don't even need to hack tbh

#

just standard move away

fathom root
#

mhm

bold crystal
#

the only other good way to deal with lurkers is 'hey, save or get pushed out the zone' but they have decent hull and agility saves so, good luck with that one

fathom root
#

so, simply need to have a second lurker in a different part of the map. grapple teleports are fun for both GM and players since they oft don't expect it

indigo oasis
#

I like the bones of the concept- a Zone Based Striker that gains unique buffs and administers unique debuffs in its zone makes it feel distinct from the hive. That, and it's slow movement and setup makes it a threat that crawls across the map and gets more dangerous the longer you leave it alone.

Those are the bones. Idk how much of it translates to execution.

bold crystal
#

also straight up ripper claws don't need to exist. they do the same job as the whip except now it can barrage for a solid 18/24/28 damage

indigo oasis
brisk flax
#

Assuming I want to stick with the idea of the lurker as:
1). a baseline slow, zone controller similar to the demolisher and pyro
2). something that strongly wants to stay ensconced within a shroud
3). but can't be casually ignored
what I would probably do to begin with is look at expanding the range at which shrouds can be placed to see what that does. Range 5 isn't bad, but it does limit them to a bit of a crawl of sorts. Idk, this might be a map size thing.

#

Like with Demolishers and Pyros the idea is "okay, having a specifically gated Danger Radius is something I'm okay with, the hard intent is that these guys are specific gatekeepers"

#

but the Lurker seems to want to be more mobile

bold crystal
brisk flax
#

Like I'd even consider something like "knock the total number of deployed shrouds down to 2 at a time and up the range"

indigo oasis
#

SPeaking in terms of flavor, I like the fact it needs to crawl a bit- gives off the vibe of an encroaching cloud/guerilla warfare style attacker. Plus if its working with zones and wants to be in its zones (compared to Hive, which likes being in its zones but doesn't need to be), a crawl is probably gonna be slightly inevitable even if you up the workable range to 10

bold crystal
#

(also, shroud zone tracking is kind of fucky. max 3 per lurker? it's not a 'place new and replace one' thing? defensive shroud just places an extra?)

indigo oasis
#

Every time I think I've got a good handle on an NPC, a new discussion makes me realize "hang on that is weird" lol

bold crystal
#

(also defensive shroud reads like one of those abilities that's supposed to reduce incoming damage but it's completely unclear if it does. and, also, if it is, it shouldn't be.)

brisk flax
#

like, my big thing with the rebake is "if an NPC is meant to be slow, then okay fine, have it be slow and don't break out of that, make it slow and then give it a bigger area to fuck with or something," the lurker seems to want to play it both ways

last blade
brisk flax
#

I don't inherently mind "this guy is slow normally but they have a way to bounce between points, making it your job to cut that off" but the question is then one of implementation

neon blaze
#

"potential across map teleports" and "speed 3" will do that, yeah. or i guess speed 4 if you're tier 3

#

because of course

brisk flax
#

"slow nominally, but fast between specific designated areas that can be manipulated/shut off" is I think a workable dynamic

neon blaze
#

the idea of them being hyper mobile if they can set it up, giving them a much broader stretch of control, is definitely interesting yeah, just not facilitated at all

indigo oasis
#

The teleportation has its issues on the lurker, but on its own it's also a concept that is fairly unique and interesting for a Lancer NPC- most NPCs that focus on fortification don't really have incentive to leave their forifications or have the ability to return to them if they do. Focusing down on that eject/prospector button could be interesting

indigo oasis
bold crystal
#

honestly the lurker kind of wants its very own version of motile swarm. to an extent.

fathom root
indigo oasis
#

What if you kind of took the parisitism mechanic and expanded on it?

#

Making shrouds able to be deployed around allies or something?

#

Focusing less on using other lurkers and more just using allies regardless of class

fathom root
#

would you hit a lurker out of its zone if by hitting it it could go back to its zone further away?

bold crystal
fathom root
#

still takes damage, but def feels like this thing goes out sometimes to do setup, but it can still if needed return

neon blaze
#

I also think Shrouds themselves would need heavy adjustment also, not just the framework surrounding them - they're loaded with defensive characteristics when they really shouldn't be. just pick one and roll with it

fathom root
#

invis is pretty good

#

i'd keep that

neon blaze
#

an optimal Lurker fight (optimal for the Lurker that is) looking like +3 Difficulty, Invisible, and Resistance to all damage is

indigo oasis
#

In that case would the Soft Cover wanna stay or go?

neon blaze
#

sure

neon blaze
#

personally my take is we have Resistance galore and while Invis is annoying, this one at least has a turn off button via tech

#

so I'd go with the cover + Invis and lean into the "this thing is a bitch to hit" side of things

bold crystal
#

I think invis is the more frustrating of the mechanics and thus the one that should stay here - which is a bit of a specter-like dynamic, so they probably would have to get back a bit of health(but not much)

neon blaze
#

vs Demolisher and Pyro being more brick houses

#

Pyro does have the pseudo-invis wall mind but similarly has a way around it, so

#

but in general, the NPC roster is more resist than invis

indigo oasis
#

In terms of the Shroud Zone debuffs, perhaps keeping them purely in the optional territory would be a good idea, but I'm partially attached to having them impair as part of the base kit (not shred tho)

neon blaze
#

I think the Shred is fine, Impair is so-so. I'd either have the Impair or the cover but not both, its a bit heavy handed otherwise

indigo oasis
#

Keep it to 2 effect gotcha

neon blaze
#

it really depends on who you want to punish more

#

Impaired-if-in-zone for shutting out melee, Cover for Lurker for shutting out ranged

#

different niches

indigo oasis
#

The main thing I'm keeping in mind is "how do you keep the rebake's role distinct from the Specter?"

bold crystal
#

I would say cover, probably - if you're in melee with a lurker that produces its own problems

neon blaze
#

at the moment Lurker as is just says "fuck everyone" until someone gets the Frag Sig pocket sand out and as pointed we already kind of have that on an NPC but far less annoying because at least Hornets don't resist reliable while Lurker does, while having armor

indigo oasis
#

Specter is pretty bad against armored targets but requires little setup to reach vulnerable targets

#

Maybe doing the inverse of putting vanguard targets into bad situations with Shred would be a good idea

#

Equal and opposite role sorta thing?

#

Just shred and invis, no cover or anything else

neon blaze
#

so you'd really just want it to find which side of the fence you wanna lean onto on "who does a Lurker want to fuck over the most in a party"

#

kind of like how, as an arbitrary example, Scourers really want to go for slower, chunkier players

indigo oasis
#

The idea of the shroud zone is that it very much gives off a vibe of "penalizes those who approach recklessly"

bold crystal
#

I think some of the lurker's scary point is like, getting overwatched with the whip is terrifying. it's like a sentinel, in some ways.

indigo oasis
#

You can shut them down with actions, you can drag them out, but if you rush in you're gonna get screwed

#

And the ones who tend to rush in tend to have armor or defenses they'd much rather keep up

#

But also impair is much better if the intent is to keep them in the zone- penalizing grapple rolls and all

#

That, and impair definitely protects the lurker better.

neon blaze
#

should a Lurker be punishing big-dick swing melee by locking them in the Bad Circle or force ranged opponents to have to close in and risk being swapped

should it want to mitigate the amount of damage that can be dealt across the board, or try its luck wasting shots entirely

#

all of the above are viable angles and after a point you just kind of gotta choose

indigo oasis
#

But also- the mechanic of the Lurker doesn't sound like it'd enjoy being vulnerable to artillery

#

It's a toss up

fathom root
#

invis still up for me

neon blaze
#

if it was me personally, I'd probably do Invisible + Cover + Shredded - force enemies to get close, and then bring them in to the bad circle. Demolisher is already in the "Punish melee" camp so I'm not really convinced by wanting to push another mech into that niche

#

and Invisible I already discussed my thoughts on

indigo oasis
#

I'm personally locked into the Invis- it's called a Lurker, it's a Shroud Zone, it fits obscuring vision far better than resistiance

bold crystal
fathom root
#

or would it incentivise people to run into the shred zone thus the lurker's melee range?

neon blaze
#

nah I just mean the effects from the Umbral Shroud as they are

#

so Lurker is invis and gains soft cover, hostiles get shredded

#

toss all the other effects

fathom root
indigo oasis
#

It would probably be simpler to not do that maybe? I can imagine tracking that over the table would be annoying

neon blaze
#

this but toss the resistance

fathom root
#

hmm yeah, toss is unnecessary

#

resist i mena

fathom root
indigo oasis
#

As for the whip I'd probably reduce the damage to 6- if you're keeping Shred and when you consider the bonus shroud effects, 8 is a bit excessive

#

maaaaaybe 7

fathom root
#

6 is good combined with the pull adjacency and increased threat

bold crystal
fathom root
indigo oasis
indigo oasis
#

Tho doing the math on that, that's practically a size 3 exerting threat 3 in both zones, which is a lot

fathom root
fathom root
bold crystal
#

maybe even specifically replacing the current teleport, so the zones specifically are the problem you need to solve.

bold crystal
indigo oasis
#

(Ah gotcha, I understand now)

fathom root
#

i'd keep its increase current shroud size ability then

#

since that still takes a quick, and a good setup for the overwatches

indigo oasis
#

If the resistance is being axed, then I'd probably combine Defensive Shroud and Consume Shroud into a singular ability- a Brace that requires the lurker to be in a shroud zone and consume the shroud. Depending on the Shroud Zone reworks perhaps just getting rid of Defensive Shroud and keeping Consume Shroud is a better idea, but it sounds like a better game feel to consume the shroud off turn and leave it vulnerable for a bit in order to reduce the damage of a big hit. That, and did it really need that overshield?

#

You could probably rework Devouring Shard to be an interesting way to make a Shroud the lurker is displaced from still be something it can attack from... probably, idk. It should do more control and/or destroy the originating shroud instead of just being a big cone attack tho

fathom root
#

striker/defender is a good role for lurker

bold crystal
#

I think there's something to lean on there with the bilocation/omnipresence thing of 'yeah this thing can be in any shroud zone whenever it wants'

indigo oasis
#

A fun optional feature could be making hostile characters in Shroud Zones unable to draw LOS out of them but idk how useful that'd actually be- perhaps for the Veteran trait

fathom root
bold crystal
#

I'd actually suggest maybe something like, 'if a shroud gets popped I can teleport to where it was and attack' or similar dynamics where it loses the protection but gets to fuck someone up for it

fathom root
indigo oasis
#

All interesting approaches

fathom root
#

was thinking of the teleport as a defensive move where it can either teleport from out of shroud into shroud, or from a threatened shroud to a different one

#

ahhhh

#

biological lurkers...

bold crystal
indigo oasis
#

Do you think adding another counter to shroud zones would be a good idea?

#

Like pattern weapons also being able to target them?

fathom root
#

not really

bold crystal
#

maybe? 'how vulnerable are shroud zones' is a thing that really has to be determined by what it actually does with them/how they're used

fathom root
#

keeping it to tech and smart weapons are already two

bold crystal
#

if they're too vulnerable the lurker could be too easily dispatched, if they're not vulnerable enough, [current lurker, or worse]

bold crystal
opal folio
#

what's the latest version for the lcp please? I have one file that's v 1.9.0 and another that's 1.15.3 and they don't seem to have the same metadata

#

which is going to make running them both in foundry a PITA...ah well

indigo oasis
#

It is 1.15.3 I believe

carmine idol
rose hamlet
# brisk flax but the Lurker seems to want to be more mobile

Thinking about how maybe Lurker should just literally be a Balor, albeit maybe with 1 more speed, no regen, and like, either resistance or invis but not both. Kill the teleport, the shroud moves with the Lurker, but the shroud can still be dispelled with a hack.

This is admittedly picking a direction to go (slow-ish melee with ablative defenses that’s weak to hacks but projects a dangerous zone around them) that blows up the “lurk and shift between fog clouds” aspect. As a result maybe it’s not the best/cleanest idea, but it sounds a bit more healthy with similar layers of counterplay?

vale crescent
#

Resistance and bumping the health up a tad would work

#

Imo, if it wants to replicate the balor

#

The Lurker both feels a lot like a balor and nothing like it because of the invis and how fragile it is with no defences

opal folio
#

tbh the lurker feels closer to the hecatoncheires imo, albeit built around invis rather than hidden

opal folio
rose hamlet
#

Then yeah lean into that then; kill the resistance to damage and increase the range it can place its shrouds

#

And yes Foundry overwrites objects with the same ID much more cleanly than CompCon does

opal folio
#

suldan's reaver is much better at simulating a balor in the sense that it's slow, impossible to kill, and projects a zone of fuck-you around it

rose hamlet
#

No need to reinvent the wheel Balor then

vale crescent
#

The plot twist when I expose to my players how busted hidden is, go ahead and hide I dare you. LITERALLY ANYONE can hide, just do it

#

It's literally only a quick action, it might as well be free

#

I have 36 hidden NPCs at home

indigo oasis
#

I ❤️ hiding

young turtle
#

Going back on Lurker talk

#

I think its weird as an NPC because it kinda does require you to play it in a specific way

#

If you dont actually play it the way it wants (as in, sit in the zones) then it becomes so easy to deal with that its a non factor

#

Its cool, conceptually, but when I want to use one, i've always had to make it so dealing with them was like, neccesary

#

So you put them in corridors, you put them in small spaces where they can slowly advance and block off exits

#

and I think that's what actually gives it a niche over Hornet, imo, because Hornet is similar but wants the opposite

#

It wants open spaces, somewhat, to move around in and out of range

#

(and so that the Impair actually matters even more by taking soft cover or even hard cover)

#

The Lurker sorta needs to play with its tools in that specific way because it won't ever have cover from the map like 90% of the time

#

To be clear i'm not disagreeing that it would benefit from a rework, just that I do think it has some quirks I don't think I saw being brought up here

#

Here's also one thing that I think always made me do a double take

#

actually

indigo oasis
#

I’m definitely in favor of making the Lurker a little overturned compared to the average NPC when inside it’s in its shroud zone- just as of now “4x effective HP among at least 4 other things” is a bit much

young turtle
#

The scouring whip

#

I, personally, don't see why it needs that critical hit clause

#

instead of, say, making the critical hit happen on a hit

#

Oh no like to be clear, I agree

indigo oasis
#

Ye that was a comment of agreement with your sentiment lol

young turtle
#

which is awkward and at that point i'd really just ask why it doesn't have more health baseline

#

and less stacking defenses

indigo oasis
#

Even 20 effective HP at tier 1 is enough

young turtle
#

But if you had to ask me

#

I think if it had to keep one thing

#

i'd say invisibility

indigo oasis
#

Cuz the Shroud Zones do more than just buff the Lurker- it protects allies, give hide areas, and debuffs enemies inside

young turtle
#

or, and that's my evil side speaking

#

Just give it more armor

indigo oasis
#

Hm, that’s an interesting one. If you’re keeping invis, then that makes it better at not being cheezed by reliable damage… which sounds a little unfun tbh

young turtle
#

Also my take on the optionals

#

is that I like this one the most thematically

young turtle
indigo oasis
young turtle
#

it just gets "armor" in shroud zones

indigo oasis
#

Mmm gotcha gotcha

young turtle
#

Or, well, Overshield

#

could also work imo

indigo oasis
#

Personally with names like “Lurker” and “Shroud Zone”, I’m personally of the opinion going for evasion due to vision obscurement cleaves closest to the flavor of the class. That’s not something that needs to have a bearing on mechanics tho

young turtle
indigo oasis
# young turtle

If you go for the direction being brainstormed earlier, Empower Shroud absolutely helps reinforce the gimmick of making Nests the Lurker can build up and return to

young turtle
#

Listen all i'm going to say is

brisk flax
young turtle
#

you make the Lurker a serial killer

#

you make him Jason

brisk flax
#

the lurker is extremely feast or famine

young turtle
#

he goes in the fog, he pops out of the fog, he grabs you

indigo oasis
brisk flax
#

it 100% wants to stay in zones, and that significantly warps its dynamic in ways I don't think are interesting

young turtle
#

and then they find you stabbed in its lair

arctic stag
#

i assume the wallflower npcs arent gonna have rebakes?

indigo oasis
#

Weird idea- Pankrati Charge style optional for Lurker (protocol move double speed, if ending next to enemy can place a Shroud Zone on its space)

brisk flax
indigo oasis
young turtle
#

Tbh if you asked me, I think you could make do with Shroud Zones just being a feature of the map right away, no need for it to deploy them close, it just doesn't get to deploy them near, say, the player zone

indigo oasis
#

Ala Rangertail?

young turtle
#

also umbral shift shouldn't really require LOS imo

arctic stag
indigo oasis
#

Ye

#

No LCPs will be made of it most likely tho

arctic stag
#

is there a pdf at least?

brittle cipher
#

.

arctic stag
#

or somewhere were i can read/see it?

#

many thanks

brittle cipher
#

o7

trail pivot
#

hmmm actually you know what, fuck it, I'll take the lurker challenge, I'm feeling it atm anyway

indigo oasis
#

(Personally I’d make either Erupting Shrapnel or Vanguard Armor Systems so that 1 system trauma doesn’t guaranteed make the base Avenger helpless)

#

(Cuz not everyone is using the rebake structure table)

#

I’d take my own stabs at rebaking the expansion NPCs, but a. No time, and b. Literally never ran any of them, so I have no idea what the issues in practice would be

#

That will change soon but alas, until then

rose hamlet
#

Shrapnel being a system sounds appropriate

indigo oasis
#

We’ve been talking a lot about Lurker rebaking- I’m curious about Spite. On paper, Spite to me looks pretty good, but there are a few points that feel redundant or overly mean, particularly in the optionals. Crush Targeting and Insidious Prison specifically, but Feedback Shield kinda harps on Priest a tad- perhaps that’s not in need of change but it sticks out to me

vale crescent
#

Spite is amazing, no notes

#

Perfect being

#

Actually, make it 6 speed

rose hamlet
#

I think Spite is cool except the “must end turn adjacent to Spite” rule usually reads as “destroy the spite” which I think is a small shame

#

But part of that is map/level design

vale crescent
#

Simply approach it

indigo oasis
#

Insidious Prison seems redundant mainly because you’re already punished for taking Heat by not being able to clear it when Imprisoned, so taking damage when you overcharge makes it feel like a filler optional

vale crescent
#

Like it's good for shutting down an artillery because the cost of losing, losing heat is probably better than becoming vulnerable to everything. Whereas a melee DZ rider should either: get someone else to kill it OR rush the spite

rose hamlet
#

What if spite had a tool to pull you closer to it while you’re imprisoned

indigo oasis
rose hamlet
#

It’s a defender that squats in the boonies and says “come get me neener neener”

indigo oasis
#

Typically the Spite is gonna be right by its allies/objectives, it’s not very mobile

#

I presume… I’m not really the best to talk about this so feel free to humble me

#

Anyway that kinda steps on rebake Goliath’s role, which with Crush Targeting as an optional probably shouldn’t be double down on

rose hamlet
#

That’s just how I’ve seen it used: force players to choose between going after their objective and suffering, or abandoning their objective and liberating themselves

indigo oasis
#

Spite also suffers from CRB Witch Syndrome, where 2/3 of its base actions are recharges

rose hamlet
#

But I get it

vale crescent
#

Spite to me, feels like a defender of "come to me or suffer" and I feel like should force that choice either by giving players the choice than literally forcing them to approach

indigo oasis
brisk flax
#

and if I was going to look at the spite with a dynamic of "making people actually consider engaging with that element," I'd consider doing so by chopping that range down

vale crescent
#

Would resistance to damage + heat from characters under the effect of imprison be too potent?

trail pivot
#

i dont really have as many "Why are you like that" with the spite compared to say, Strider or Lurker, ot to a lesser extent, Avenger.

brisk flax
#

"will I walk 20 spaces to disable this, or will I just destroy this thing"

rose hamlet
#

Right it can say “come across the map or suffer” at a long-ass range

#

That’s fair

trail pivot
#

Im on the fence about its sensors, becuce on the one hand, yeah, on the other hand, I have had a not-sinsignificant number of players actually run up to the guy to bash its skull in

rose hamlet
vale crescent
#

I do really like 20 sensors though...

#

😭

trail pivot
#

And i think between the "destroy it" or "run up next to it" the end result is that they approach the spite actually, anyway, unless the plaer happens to have long range artillery

rose hamlet
#

Noted noted

trail pivot
#

like im not saying I'd kill it, but like, i'd have to think of something i'd even bother replacing with

indigo oasis
#

It’s mainly the Spite Optionals and the double base kit recharges that give me pause on paper

trail pivot
#

but i should also note that i don't mind if the players pick "just destroy it" because the spite is also built like a beef cake

#

i think some of the optionals are kind of boring but i do like insidious prison

#

People spam their overcharges too much

vale crescent
#

Actions spent destroying it means that those are actions not spent destroying other characters which is a win in my book

trail pivot
#

and its not like destroying a spite is easy

vale crescent
#

If it takes a while... Or they abuse its small ass HC and expose it and it just gets one shot from range 10

indigo oasis
trail pivot
#

yeah

#

it is the "punish u for reckless heat gain" guy

#

its optionals should probabyl do that

indigo oasis
#

If you haven’t overcharged much, risking a low Overcharge to boost towards the spite and clear Imprison feels like something you should be rewarded for

trail pivot
#

and your reward is being closer

rose hamlet
#

Hot take: Spite should have Pain Transferrence instead of witch

indigo oasis
#

Rewording- I feel like you shouldn’t be punished more for that

trail pivot
indigo oasis
#

It’s also curious (nothing more) that Spite’s central gimmick is Imprison yet it’s only way of turning up the heat aside from Invade is Seize. Curious doesn’t mean bad, just that it’s something I wanna look more into by running it

fringe peak
#

i ran and ultra and couple others

#

ill post orpfor results in a momeng

indigo oasis
#

orpfor

vale crescent
#

I think, if spite was reworked. The damage it deals from imprison could be swapped out for something else. Some other incentive to use it agianst peeps who have already been imprisoned than more damage

indigo oasis
trail pivot
#

it dealing damage felt uncessary to me to begin with,

indigo oasis
#

You’d think that’d be something that would be emphasized more

rose hamlet
trail pivot
#

if you're imprisoned it's kind of already doing it'd job imo

indigo oasis
#

Fair

trail pivot
#

in this case, forcing you to think about your choices

#

save the "pressure" for strikers or artillery is our general philosophy

indigo oasis
#

Tru tru

fringe peak
trail pivot
#

thing is already demolisher tier bulk with 20 sensors

#

you don't really want it to have offensive capability or it becomes a boss

indigo oasis
#

Spite is sorta incentivized to re-imprison imprisoned characters, but like… I don’t see why that should be a thing

#

All in all, on paper it seems to me Spite’s base kit is super well knit, however it’s optionals and some minor points need some work. Similar to the Berserker in terms of rebaking

#

The 3 points i’m zoning in on is Crush Targeting (redundant, it already has Imprison and this is Goliath’s thing), Seize and Enthrone both being Recharges and in the base kit (this was an issue for Witch that got removed- even if the Spite is meant to be an Imprison Spammer it should have one other thing it can consistently use), and the general additional (main and optional) effects of imprison aside from shutting down Heat clear being just damage focused

#

I’m surprised none of the optionals interact with Enthrone and Seize either

fringe peak
#

@brisk flax

Opfor: Control, tier 2

Enemies
7 Striker Grunts
1 veteran demolisher
1 goliath
1 veteran seeder
1 ultra sniper
1 veteran scout
1 assasin

players:
Manticore Melee, Hacker/sniper goblin, Antimat Oleander, Shatterhead walkng armour gilgamesh

All in all, the enemies felt balanced but fun. The seeders mines becoming neutral after death made it so i had alot of difficuntly repsoitioning the grunts. The players smartly used a wolf hound issile from the ultra to take out goliath and seeder as someone hit it with a flack cannon the turn before.

I rolled super hot on wolfhound and was able to get massive value off of it since players prioritizes shooting enemies over shooting missiles. The veteran demolisher was able to use jetboost for great effect...but it also led to an earlier stress and it dying much sooner than if it just had acrobat. IT's ability to place terrain and inflict knocback let it hold a point very effectively. Expose weakness allowed the scout to combo very well.

ALl in all, the sitrep felt challenging but very balanced and good. I think the NPC changes were received very well. We did felt woflhound missile does possibly need a clause where only one can be on the map at a time? But other than that it felt really good.

brisk flax
#

Baseline, the CRB wolfhound does have an "only one at a time" clause, I removed it to put it more in parity with the Hound missile and because I'm not yet sure how much it's necessary

bold crystal
#

on the spite, I think the problem with the spite is it's effectively controller/artillery more than it ever is a defender. it just kinda sits there and goes 'okay I have 20 sensors and if you get within my half of the map I'm gonna hit you with some damage and the worst status effect in the game'

indigo oasis
#

I feel like making a lot of its punishments be damage isn’t the best way to go about things tbh. For Enthrone that’s a good idea, but Imprison basically attacks your heat cap and HP at the same time, which feels… incorrect, is the best way I can put it. Nothing wrong with attacking the whole character sheet, but one character should be limited in being able to do all that alone, particularly with one action

bold crystal
#

I will actually note Enthrone as a Problem ability, because it's kind of like, 'punish aoe artillery' but it just punishes you for interacting with it at all - it hits multiple attacks and melee attacks more than it hits 'fire the AMR once into the spite's center mass', and AP means close-range high-armor bruisers still can't positively interact with it.

#

hitting melee attacks specifically is an issue because that's nominally the range at which the spite should not want you to be at.

indigo oasis
#

Hmm, makes sense makes sense

#

The “adjacent allies” part should probably be further focused in a rebake. It’s also already multiattack resistant due to armor, so perhaps doing something weird with weapon sizes on Enthrone could be cool? And not working against melee is another potentially good idea

bold crystal
#

(anyway besides this the spite's HP scaling is bonkers. 18/20/22 and 2/3/4 armor? why?)

indigo oasis
#

That’s supremely tanky yeah

trail pivot
#

i don't really take umbrage with it getting so chunked out at higher tier tbh and more so things like it dealing damage

indigo oasis
#

Tru, apart from Enthrone the Spite doesn’t really have a way of shoring up its defenses

trail pivot
#

the spite,notably, doesnt have a resistance trait like the demo or bastion and doesn't have the mobility or evasion to evade fire and like, in practical experience I do think the guy designed to sit out in the open and be slow as shit should be hard to kill

bold crystal
#

oh I don't disagree, really, it's just wild that it's tankier than the demolisher who has to actually move into short range.

trail pivot
#

and its not like there arent a billion ways to blow it up in 1 or 2 hits anyway

#

The demolisher also has 2 resistance traits

#

in CRB

rose hamlet
trail pivot
#

the demolisher can survive that op cal nuke cav tach lance crit

#

the spite has good odds to drop dead from that

bold crystal
#

that is true.

rose hamlet
#

Instead of resistance, Spite relies on its 20 Sensors to stay out of range imo

trail pivot
#

hell a single boos to the dd-228 is good odds to reliably 1 shot a spite, even at t3, like 26 damage in one hit isn't that impossible

indigo oasis
#

Ya know, I’d probably be pretty happy transplanting Siege Armor to spite over Enthrone. Not saying it should be done, in fact I don’t think it should, but I’d be happy with it is all

trail pivot
#

i think giving it resistance traits is prboably not a good move because then it does just kind of become the artlliery goliath

indigo oasis
#

Yeah

#

Artillery defense should still be something to keep in mind tho

rose hamlet
#

Or lack thereof, as long as it’s intentional

indigo oasis
#

The spite should be weak in melee and strong at range- wait isn’t that reinventing the Aegis?

#

… prolly not

#

I hope

rose hamlet
#

Aegis is strong defensively, while Spite is strong Controlsively

#

I hesitate to call it “offensive” due to striker connotations, but it takes direct action vs opponents instead of setting up proactive defenses (mostly)

bold crystal
#

I mean honestly the spite is closer to artillery than defender, in its current state

rose hamlet
#

I mean I argue it’s closer to Controller but at some point this is all splitting hairs I suppose

#

I suppose I can see what you mean, if we assume Imprison is doing all the legwork

indigo oasis
#

I guess the first basic step I’d take is how do you rework the base kit so only one of the features is recharge

#

Which… is not easy but it’s a start

rose hamlet
#

Easy: Remove Recharge from Enthrone

#

Add a heat cost

bold crystal
#

enthrone is kind of NOAH already, really.

#

a heat cost would also make that low 5/6/7 heat cap shine.

indigo oasis
#

Imprison already has an alt way of being cleared so perhaps keeping Overheating out of feature interactions would be good- don’t wanna just become Rebake Aegis 2

rose hamlet
#

I don’t think that’s a concern

#

Like at all

#

Just because you have an aura that deters enemy aggression does not mean you’re an Aegis

fringe peak
indigo oasis
#

I was gonna say “overheat to clear it is though” but then I remembered rebake Operator and I believe specter and now I just feel a little silly, so taking that back

rose hamlet
#

Overheat to stop an ability is a good mechanic that should be used more often /biased

bold crystal
#

I mean, honestly, yeah

rose hamlet
#

I have done this numerous times on all my homebrew NPCs

bold crystal
#

rewards for controlling the enemy is a good thing.

#

counterhack the spite to turn off the virus before your six shermans all simultaineously detonate.

indigo oasis
#

So for the damage part of Imprison- should that be nixed?

#

Seize is also a guaranteed way for the Spite to stop itself from being approached, and one small question I have is “is that healthy game design, or does that make it too self sufficient?” I’m leaning towards a tentative “no” but idk

fringe peak
#

like i'm a big fan of imprison it makes it a good way of action denial etc... i do think adding something like involuntary movmenet can shut it off

bold crystal
indigo oasis
#

The idea is that the Spite wants to taunt people into approaching, and slowing them down isn’t helping with that

#

So, one idea could be a Mesmer Charge effect, where all voluntary movement needs to be towards the spite?

Another idea could be a blind effect, but that’s witch’s deal, so not a good call there.

One more could be leaning into the heat, maybe focusing more on Jam as a sort of “Eject Power Cores” equivalent. But then that steps on Hornet.

It’s hard to find ground that doesn’t significantly overlap with another NPC

#

What it should be, imo, is the anti-artillery defense. That seems like a fair idea for a recharge ability

#

Ok… weird one… something that force unloads all the target’s weapons (even if they’re not loading), to steal from XComm a bit? With a way to opt out of it too

#

Even that one I don’t feel great about, tho it does combo well with Imprison (need to stabilize to reload weapons most of the time, but with Imprison you can’t clear heat along with it)

#

The opt out could just be taking double heat from Seize

pastel crater
#

Could also take the adjacency disable the other way, make it into a more general requirement and a way to inconvenience ranged enemies/enable melee allies—“When an Imprisoned character moves adjacent to another character, they take X cc_damage_energy and are no longer Imprisoned,” or something like that. Maybe make it a heat hit, and/or zap both the character and the one they move adjacent to.

That makes it a hell of a lot easier to clear Imprisonment, but that opens more room for the Spite to have other tools to work with, or even to make Imprison natively hit multiple targets (I love Carceri) or to have some movement control baked in.

strange trellis
#

Is the rebake sheet for the barricade supposed to list it as Size 1

pastel crater
#

Overall, though, I think the decision to be made is what the Spite actually does. A lot of its identity/the thing players usually fear about it is Imprison, but it’s also a brick that theoretically likes to be immobile and also near to its allies, the anchor piece for a ranged enemy comp. I think it’d also be possible to lean in that direction with it.

brisk flax
pastel crater
brisk flax
#

That size discrepancy is addressed in both the lcp and the master document which is pinned here in the channel and what is being used going forward

strange trellis
#

Thanks

pastel crater
#

Aces, got it. Could you unpin the Drive folder, or update the message to say that it isn’t the one being updated/that should be relied on?

strange trellis
#

So just for clarification, should I disregard all the individual NPC docs?

rose hamlet
#

They’re outta date

young turtle
#

Also the main thing about the spite is it has this much health and armor because it doesn’t "do" a whole lot so it needs the juice somewhere imo

#

A lot of its kit is saves

#

And i think it’s fine if some tanky npcs exist cause it means it’s not a case of like, as easily opcal hmg ocing it

ancient forge
#

Neither time that I’ve used the spite have I actually gotten to use any of its save-based abilities successfully, and as a result my players just took their time smashing everything else before stomping on it

brisk flax
#

It's a big range, high toughness thing that largely just sort of sits in place and periodically hits people with the Get Owned Idiot button

#

I feel like if I was going to crack into the Spite, the biggest issue I would identify with it is it feels very uninteractive

#

this sort of ties into the "feels like a stage hazard" thing

#

you get the Suck More virus and your options are 1). walk probably 20 spaces to be next to the Spite or B). chew through 20+ HP and 2+ armor

bold crystal
#

pretty much, yeah. it sits there and if it wants to really bully one guy it just asks 'okay, save or 8 damage?' every turn, plus lock on, enthrone, and seize to taste.

young turtle
#

I do agree with that, I do personally think it being tanky is actually the "interesting" part about it imo

trail pivot
#

i had thoughts about "what if the guy was designed around actually having a movement stat.

bold crystal
#

also the spite's self-immobilize does it no favors designwise

young turtle
#

"here's a tech based thing that makes your life harder and its actually quite tanky" is like, a fun "reverse" of the witch imo

bold crystal
#

it doesn't have a short enough range for it to matter

brisk flax
#

I think "slow tanky tech guy" is fine, with an identity of "this is an angry transmission tower," but none of its stuff plays into that

young turtle
#

Yeah

#

I agree

trail pivot
#

yeah.

brisk flax
#

it doesn't have any keepaway, it's SO long ranged that "move closer" feels like a sucker's choice a lot of the time

bold crystal
#

come closer. meet the sentinel that's just sitting next to me under enthrone. etc

trail pivot
#

i had a little variety of things i considered like having imprison be shut off by any kind of involuntary movement,

#

and probably also killing the heavy frame optional

indigo oasis
indigo oasis
young turtle
#

I'm mostly wording that because I think, in my opinion, some people take the wrong thing away from the Spite's problems, the fact you can't just burst it down to deal with it is actually a feature to me because it means it occupies an interesting spot among controllers (because lets be honest it is a type of controller) that makes it not just "can you kill it as fast as possible" to deal with it

indigo oasis
#

It’s an aspect I’d prefer to be maintained tbh

bold crystal
#

also it can tech attack normally. mostly I haven't seen my GM do that, but 'hey. impair you and force a save' at range 20 is kinda frustrating 1

indigo oasis
#

The problem is it really disincentivizes you for doing the one alternative counter

bold crystal
#

I don't think it being tanky is a bad thing, but I do think it just does too much as-is for it to be as tanky as it is.

trail pivot
#

im pretty sure the wallflower book outrights states it is a controller-defender yeah

#

comp-con just doesnt do duel-roles for npc's

young turtle
#

(which is something I think these rebakes are doing well btw which is to not neccesarily make the tanky stuff less tanky for the sake of players being able to deal with them more easily)

brisk flax
# 
Imprison
System, Quick Tech
The Spite chooses a character within Sensors and infects them with a catalyzing virus. While infected with this virus, they can't clear heat by any means except for overheating. During their turn, infected characters can attempt to clear this virus by passing a Systems save as a quick action; if they fail, they take 4/5/6 energy damage (double damage if they are in the Danger Zone). Otherwise, this virus lasts until the affected character moves adjacent to the Spite, the Spite is destroyed, or until the end of the scene.``` like off the top of my head
indigo oasis
bold crystal
brisk flax
#

And might also make it so the virus can only really affect one person at a time

young turtle
#

I think that's a good idea

brisk flax
#

then have the optionals play into viral infection more, i.e. when someone is affected by Imprison it also gives them a Crush Targeting-esque penalty on attacks

young turtle
#

Not even just from a "oh this is too strong perspective" just a "wow its a lot to keep track of"

#

perspective

bold crystal
brisk flax
#

also not having Imprison repeatedly hammer someone for damage through additional procs means the Spite needs to be doing other shit during its turn

#

instead of "I Imprison, then Imprison again times infinity"

young turtle
#

Genuinely give it a "heatgun" weapon

#

lmao

brisk flax
#

or just make Enthrone less, uh, Enthrone

bold crystal
indigo oasis
brisk flax
#

recharge defensive optional that roots you in place, get outta here

#

like I'd genuinely consider replacing Enthrone with something else

#

Seize is better

indigo oasis
#

The idea of a NOAH style NPC ability is fun in theory but not for the spite tbh

brisk flax
#

as a baseline part of its kit

young turtle
#

Honestly i'd consider giving it something beyond guardian that makes it good for allies to stick near it

brisk flax
#

still on a recharge but what are you gonna do

indigo oasis
young turtle
#

Or even make it easier for them to stick near them

indigo oasis
brisk flax
# 
Seize
System, Full Tech
A hostile character within Sensors and line of sight must pass a Systems save or take 2/3/4 heat and become Slowed until the end of their next turn. If that character is infected by Imprison, they become Immobilized instead. On a success, they become Impaired until the end of their next turn only.``` or something
indigo oasis
#

If it wants to defend Allies, the best way it can do so is not bring the enemy to them

young turtle
#

Spite False Idol?

young turtle
#

Right now it can but its like, mostly an incentive thing

brisk flax
#

lots of "the hive doesn't need to be able to spawn infinite razor swarms, seeders do not need to be able to plant infinity mines"

#

turns out that shit sucks when you're GMing a whole group of NPCs

indigo oasis
#

It’s odd how the Lurker avoided that and Spite did not

bold crystal
#

oh one mechanical thing about the lurker is empower shroud would be easier to track if the first hit just shrank the shroud back to normal size

#

not the most critical thing, but

indigo oasis
#

Also helps not make the tech attack feel wasted

trail pivot
#

Why does the lurker randomly go from 5 heat cap to 8 at tier 3 specifically

#

how was i even supposed to notice that why did you do that lurker

#

oh the avenger does it too, huh

bold crystal
#

NPC stats are a mystery.

trail pivot
#

what was it specifically that warranted them both suddenly spiking to 8 at t3 remains a mysttery to me since 99% of the most lethal heat gun combos are firmly achievable by ll4

rose hamlet
indigo oasis
#

If Spite needed a 3rd base ability to replace Enthrone, perhaps a recharge that allowed it to impair, a conditional setup that allows it to lead into its other abilities better. Recharge means it can avoid being too oppressive too. Issue is Invade exists so it’s gonna compete with that

rose hamlet
#

Like this sounds dope, slap it on an ally and have a broadcast taunt

indigo oasis
#

Perhaps the ability to do a sort of “this ally/the Imprisoned has an aura of Impair for a bit” kind thing- play off the Signal Tower aesthetic a little. If it goes away at the end of the target’s turn and it affects the Imprisoned it can even do some fun turn order nonsense with forcing them to go early to get rid of it

wheat mortar
#

off topic question Kai but someone asked what your pronouns are and I didn't want to assume

brisk flax
#

nominally he/him but I generally don't care

wheat mortar
#

thanks

#

Do you have any ideas on how to rework the PC overheat/structure damage rolls to mitigate what you wrote upon in that section of the rebake?

bold crystal
wheat mortar
#

i 100% agree with the core concept of reducing bad feels about losing an intregral aspect of an NPC in an OPFOR but also trying to maintain the spirit of symmetry between PC and NPCs

rose hamlet
#

“Become jammed OR suffer system trauma”

#

Players can then get in on that too

wheat mortar
#

oh intersting i thought you'd say pick between weapon mount or system trauma

#

just eliminate that 2nd dice roll

rose hamlet
#

Nope, because that doesn’t help the Assassin with only one weapon/system

brisk flax
#

The GMS Crisis Catalog has alternate stress/structure rules that are, I believe, intended for symmetrical use

#

the biggest set of tweaks there are meant to do away with things like Stunned spirals

rose hamlet
#

Hell I’ve done it too

brisk flax
#

like speaking personally if left to my own devices I would simply not have weapon/system destruction be a thing at all, but that's getting into more than just revised tables

trail pivot
#

yeah, they are. stunned and overheating comobrditiy of causing a player or important npc to just, suddenly and spontaneously collapse because they rolled exposed or stunned or premature dstruction

brisk flax
#

I outline my take on this in the design notes, I don't find the fantasy of "I blew up that guy's gun" to be compelling enough for the implementation thereof to earn its keep

rose hamlet
#

I literally reduced Structure table to “lost a structure? Pick between brace downside or roll System Trauma” and got rid of all the other results

trail pivot
#

i think largely speaking the only change to the alt structure-stress table as ive considered it, seeing now how fairly appropriately effectiv using conditions so heavily, is that i would probably make systyems trauma, if i kept it, be a 1 result, and not a 2-4 result.

brisk flax
#

I think that games with locational damage, called shots, etc really need to be built around that to work in ways that aren't annoying or frustrating, and System Trauma is not a thing I feel is a core element of lancer's combat engine in that regard

trail pivot
#

a redesign of it self is yeah a thing i,

#

oh, huh

#

i guess i did think of something i might consider actually,

#

yeah okay i hthink i might actually have something now for system's trauma

wheat mortar
#

makes sense I introducted the rebaked structure/stress and a player commented on the fact it removed the symmetry and that he liked "blowing off the bombard's cannon"

bold crystal
#

armament redundancy exists specifically so your one weapon superheavy build doesn't go demolisher-shaped the first time you lose structure, because it turns out that Sucks

rose hamlet
#

I like system trauma as a texture thing because it’s the one unique thing about the structure damage table

#

Otherwise I’d chuck the whole thing out the window, honestly

#

Like early on, System Trauma was what made an impression on me, and I like making the tough choice of “What am I willing to lose?

#

Hence why I just added another layer of choice to it and replaced the whole table with it

wheat mortar
#

we did agree to try out the rebaked NPC strucutre/stress for a mission and see which we liked

brisk flax
#

default NPCs don't have access to identical action pools, they don't respond to overheating the same, they're "built" on different lines, etc

#

if anything, NPCs should be even LESS symmetrical

#

there's a compelling argument that not every NPC should have access to a generic invade action, for example

#

"I love blowing up this NPCs one and only gun" I mean yeah people do like it when they score what's essentially the equivalent of a free kill

wheat mortar
#

yeah that makes sense in the aforementioned pre-rebake bombard example i just ended up lock-on + invade and it sucked for everyone for 3 rounds until it died

brisk flax
#

"I love blowing up the Bombard's cannon, but I HATE it when my own superheavy weapon is on the chopping block"

indigo oasis
#

Is it more balanced? Probably not, it’s probably less balanced

#

But I personally like it

bold crystal
wheat mortar
#

on a constructive note, my favourite support the Aegis is really cool in the rebake with the removal of the defence net recharge and addition of heat interaction with the players per playtest

#

and gives me something to do while def.net is up rather than lock-on/skirmish with light laser

#

which is awesome combo with scourer per Valk's remix of OSR

fringe peak
#

So an idea I had for a potential strider rebake is a little...odd.

Strider to me had a niche if being a mid like striker/artillery with high mobility.

Thing is that's kinda operators thing right now. Sniper is about anti armour, bombard is aoe and rain maker is the controller.

What if we honed on the making strider a little more aggressive then? maybe gear it to it's more ranger esque abilities

#

Maybe put an emphasis on giving it trying to flank players and give it like... A semi tactician 3?

brittle cipher
#

Rebake HAR gains Acc against targets out of cover, Fix and Flank is word-for-word Tactician 3

fringe peak
#

Fuck

neon hemlock
fringe peak
#

The hive seems rather interesting I'm ngl. I gotta see if I can make a sitrep based around it cause it feels like it's got serious legs

#

Mainly as a set up for tech attackers. You do like, hive, witch, maybe a pyro and a mirage?

neon hemlock
#

The Hive (K) works really well with setup NPCs.

Mainly due to its force save then movement traits (re take burn from Razor Swarm).

Gets really silly since it potentially can drag out a PC out from their cover or defensive posture.

brisk flax
#

Most of that stuff is in the base hive too, so the dynamic isn't radically different

#

razor swarm into driving swarm is like hive 101

brittle cipher
brisk flax
#

hives have a lot of potential in terms of forced movement and mobility lockdown between drone barrage and driving swarm, they're very flexible positional controllers

brittle cipher
#

"if you approach us you will get shotgunned and also burnt from a razor swarm and also you will be forced to un-approach us" is a good time

neon hemlock
fringe peak
#

i plan to run a pair of sentinel ks ina s itrep soon

#

gonna see how that goes

orchid ledge
#

Wall of text incoming

#

Bombard

Good experience across the board, with a caveat or two. Played as a tier 2 elite with counter battery suite and high impact shells

Broad strokes: more dependent on allied composition for special ammo combos. Size increase was neat but maybe not a weakness fully exploited due to my map design

High impact shells/reload gimmick in general: mixed feelings. It worked once, but once players figured it out they split up (as they're supposed to) and ensured that if I had to use it again, I'd have to reload. But there is no way on gods earth I'm going to give up a whole turn of damage for... Knockback 3? That's just not happening. So them splitting up basically deleted this feature from my sheet (and earthshaker, which i didn't even use)

Not the end of the world. It can be offset with forced movement support (which i didn't have besides the Goliath grapple) or swarming players with my own guys to trigger the sacrificial triple hit (which i did as often as possible). This balances out to be positive; making GMs think about their synergy is good, and next time i field this I'm definitely bringing cataphracts. but i do think that going from "guaranteed 3 knockback every time you hit" to "maybe 3 knockback if you sacrifice your own front liners" is a painful nerf. Basically: you have to bring CC or else this will rarely be used. I don't hate that but it's notable given how many features in this rebake use this gimmick

Counter battery suite: great feature. Offsets the cannon's main weakness in a fun way. Disincentivizes trying to brute force siege armor at range. Since we're size 2 now that's good for business, especially since i have a lot of shred pressure at my table

Unimportant bonus thought: the bombard having such high e defense caught my players off guard given it's size and innate damage resistance. They (understandably) assumed that big guy = weak to hacks. Didn't turn out that way! Nothing that needs changing but i did think it was an amusing presumption

#

Goliath

Good shit. Fielded two of these at tier 2, one at initial deployment and the other as a mid game reinforcement. power knuckle and mag gauntlet. Note while reading this that i have very little Goliath experience before this. Like, two prior combats at most

Broad strokes: did his job as a tar pit, but high damage players kept him from shining like i wanted. First one was fragged in round 3 before he even got his turn. Siege armor woulda been reeeal nice

Gun changes: no engagement penalty is obviously good for what this guy does. The original was multi hit? What the fuck?? Like why tho? Anyway no notes, does what i wanted it to do. this guy isn't supposed to be throwing big digits anyway

Mag gauntlet: fun as hell. This ability just rips. Being able to use it on anyone in range gives it so much utility, even if they aren't pulled adjacent. Players never positioned themselves in such a way as to let me set up the bombard and the Goliath isn't fast enough to force the matter (nor did he live long enough to try), but the potential is there

I was tempted to add the Jammed back to it like you originally had but lmao no fucking way. That was the right call. Jammed is obviously really strong but the casual disruptive utility would make it Too Much©

Bonus thought: buff health. Or put siege armor back in. I know you were thinking it might be too much but for tier 2 players, 30 damage is trivial. They laughed at me, kai. They laughed!!

#

Scout

I fielded this rebake back when you first made it and so i was excited to give it a second spin. Was not disappointed. Fielded a pair of these at once, both with Pathfinder

Rebound scan: this new version is just as good as i remember. Allowed me to harass my infiltrator player with impunity. Im not kidding when i say that the vanilla rebound scan sucks huge, furious ass so it's just pleasant to have my spotter unit actually spot

Marker rifle: the last time i reviewed this scout, i bashfully admitted that i wasn't the type of GM to let lock ons linger. "I always consume!"

I am no longer that GM. Several months of getting my shit pushed in by a band of rowdy murder hobos killed the naive boy in me. So! Revisiting the new marker rifle with my new outlook on life? It's perfectly fair. It's really the way it should always have been

Pathfinder: this is a funny little feature, i really like it. Riffing on rangertail is unexpected given how comparatively overlooked it is in the community. Its like mirage light. I got a ton of use out of this, especially when my Goliath suddenly closed the gap. That resulted in a lot of grumbling

Bonus thought: obvious synergy with an elite bombard. Next time i pair them I'm going to go all in on sensor link/spotter. See what kind of shit i can really get up to

indigo oasis
orchid ledge
#

Sitting in bed thinking about the bombard reload. I guess i thought I'd be more tempted to risk the reload when players split up but that just wasn't the case. Should i be tempted? Maybe not. Idk, I'm conflicted

orchid ledge
indigo oasis
#

Perhaps the potency of the different shell types could use improvement?

#

I like the idea in theory, but you're basically sacrificing a turn of firing for the effects- you'd ideally want them to be extremely potent control tools

orchid ledge
#

But then when you do catch players with their pants down it risks being overwhelming

#

It's a tricky one

indigo oasis
#

That's also true- the central gimmick of not needing to reload if it hits 3 characters is a sticking point

orchid ledge
#

Yeah i gotta use it more

#

Re: goliath health i definitely get not wanting resistance, i think id prefer just a bit more padding

indigo oasis
#

Idk about the "3 or more characters" thing on paper considering how much that can vary between play groups (more players, drones, the wrong NPC loadout adding more bodies such as an Engineer or Support). It sounds swingy

orchid ledge
#

The optimal play in all cases is the sacrifice

#

Which, honestly, i like, but i didn't build into that with this opfor

indigo oasis
#

Tru tru

orchid ledge
#

So it definitely merits another go

brisk flax
#

you're right that 3+ could probably be a bit steep

#

idk if lowering it to 2 would make it too easy, but it's something I'd rather try versus "make the shells more powerful"

indigo oasis
#

I'm not speaking from any experience when mentioning that, I would like to reiterate. But it'll probably be a good idea to keep an eye on the playtest data and see if 2+ vs 3+ is meaningfully different

brisk flax
#

Sure.

#

That's sort of the idea

indigo oasis
#

2+ would likely make scattering go from a good idea to a near necessity from the sounds of it, as it seems far easier to get only 2 enemy targets in a blast 2 than 3

indigo oasis
brisk flax
# 
On a hit, the Bombard Cannon knocks targets 3
spaces away from the Bombard.```
indigo oasis
brisk flax
#

this just always works, period

#

no scattering is possible

#

so instead of "scattering becomes necessary with 2+" I would perhaps look at it as "scattering is now possible at all"

#

the point about lower player count groups is a good one

#

re: the goliath, I'm still determining exactly what I want to do with that, and tbh I wouldn't mind getting some feedback from people who've used normal goliaths more to get more of a feel for exactly how they've been performing

#

it's not that the feedback I'm getting isn't helpful, but a lot of it is "I've never used a goliath before now"

#

and it's kind of hard to evaluate exactly how distinct the rebake is performing versus the CRB version in terms of rounds to kill etc

#

because I have a feeling that at a certain level, siege armor probably isn't keeping goliaths alive and/or effective for a massive extent longer given the existence of various PC-side paracausal-type effects, movement tech, etc

indigo oasis
#

The last combat of the mission I'm running rn is gonna have a Vet Goliath, and I made the unwise decision of literally running a regular and rebake Goliath in the same mission prior. Also ran the first combat of Winter Scar with a Goliath so that's something else too.

#

Just need to get through 2 combats and like... 4 sessions worth of non-combat stuff first

#

Tbh Siege Armor acted as a sort of twofold thing for the CRB Goliath- it did add a layer of protection that did incentivize getting close to the Goliath to bypass. We had a Monarch and a Blackbeard going at the sitrep, and while the Monarch could lock onto the Goliath it was much preferred going after the other opponents while the Blackbeard focused down the Goliath to win the Gauntlet.

HOwever, in my most recent experience with the Goliath in a control sitrep, the Goliath became... very easy to ignore. Because it's Core Rulebook Goliath it couldn't move past a Mag Wall setup, and it was incentivized to just stand on one objective zone to keep gaining points. Buuut then everyone else got killed and it couldn't really make use of Crush Targeting on anyone else. We did have an artillery that could focus it down, but because it had Siege Armor, why bother?

#

Siege Armor does make it tanky against Artillery- but that can be a bad thing because artillery stops focusing on it

#

WHich means its focusing on literally everyone else- ya know, the guys with probably less than 25 HP

#

And because the CRB Goliath finds terrain such a major impedance, it can't get close the distance to range 10 in order to Crush Target the Artillery

#

Mid range however... idk, I've never had a midrange player

#

Like ever

#

But a CRB Goliath, in my experience, can't really force artillery to focus on it, and if it wants a character to close within range 3 of it, it's gonna Crush Target someone who's effective range already lies within there (Rebake Goliath does this especially, as I can attest to recently. It did give my Ultra another turn of life)

#

Hence, Siege Armor is counterproductive- Artillery should want to shoot down the Goliath so the Goliath can do its job as a meat tank, and the Goliath can't provide any non-guardian related incentives to do so anyway because Artillery doesn't tend to operate at range 10. So, get rid of Siege Armor, and at the very least it's not in the way

#

Now to be fair, this is only 2 experiences with Goliaths. But it's something, and enough to give me a feel for it and provided some experience to say I agree with the sentiment of ditching siege armor- at the very least, if a defensive measure must be implemented, it should be something other than siege armor

brisk flax
#

@orchid ledge Re: the Bombard, I can think of two alternate implementations that might be worth investigating re: the various shell types

  1. Reducing the number of targets to proc a free reload from 3 to 2
    2). Making them into Recharge type abilities similar to the CRB Earthshaker Shells with an automatic recharge clause on targeting 2-3 targets
indigo oasis
#

Would be a shame to see another Reload feature be turned to Recharge but it's understandable.

brisk flax
#

I'm happy to give it a see at 2+ instead of 3+

#

If reloading is workable then I'd be fine to see it work that way as well

indigo oasis
#

I'll be running a bombard in... 2-3 months from now, so if the playtest is still going by then I'd be happy to test the reloading with 2+ targets

blissful lion
simple juniper
#

I haven't finished reading all the Rebakes, but...

The more I read them, the more I realize certain idiosyncrasies about the regular NPCs, and how they tie to Lancer's overall system design and inspirations, particularly D&D 4e's own mechanics. 🤔

errant needle
#

Very late to the party, but the discussion of destroying weapons being kind of unfun across the board gave me the idea of like...replacing it with weapon "stun". Most NPCs are built around a single weapon as stated. Having a whole ass turn where the mount is unavailable but the NPC gets it back might be a nice middle ground. System Trauma forcing them to hard reboot the gun (or nanocarbon sword?) so it works again.

bold crystal
#

that's basically just what Jammed is, which is why it's in the replaced structure table.

#

(more or less. jammed is a little harsher overall)

brisk flax
plucky robin
#

Jammed turning off 'Every reaction' leaves a lot of NPCs out in the cold if they've got defensive reactions, which means it's a beefier option.

brisk flax
#

that too

#

I feel the benefits are significant enough and more broadly applicable enough to outweigh the permanence of System Trauma on the timeline most NPCs live on

plucky robin
#

I also feel like it makes it more...stable.

#

The value between 'took off the Ronin's sword' and 'Took of the Engineer's gun' are not the same. XD

#

There's a lot of NPCs where that 50/50 'Weapon vs System' flip is a big deal if you get the wrong one.

fringe peak
#

I saw request of input from CRV Goliath users lol

So I've recently used two Goliaths from the rebake and I'm someone who uses them pretty often.

It's a bit of a...I wanna say a slightly drastic change but it honestly feels more focused.

The rebakes Goliath higher focus on control makes up for the loss of towering defender and retribution.

Normal Goliath kinda filled this wierd niche of a defender who could also do some damage with drum shotgun and retribution.

I find myself being much more tactical with rebake Goliaths cause CRB Goliath I often find myself having to be much more aggressive in order for it to be able to do anything.

I am definitely feeling the reduction of sensor range however. 2 reduction doesn't sound alot but it often means that due to the new lock of siege armour players aren't really incentivized to move into the Goliaths range to deal damage to it. Rebake Goliath kinda excels in sitreps where the enemies have to come to it from what I've found. And mag gauntlet is kinda what enabled so many of the new strategies that I kinda wish it was part of the base systems instead of an optional almost lol. Goliath is also really good at setting up combos for assason specifically. Between Pin, mag gauntlet and power knuckle Goliath is very good at singling out strikers, locking them down while assassin follows up with a knife into a spinning kick

orchid ledge
#

It's a shift in role and one i quite like

#

There's a reason i didn't use it that much, this rebake is just more fun to play

#

Every turn started with "whos getting magged" and that set the tempo

rose hamlet
# brisk flax because I have a feeling that at a certain level, siege armor probably isn't kee...

I think the biggest question then is how much of an action tax Siege Armor inflicts on players to circumvent it. Monarch can bypass it, if it uses an extra Quick to lock on. Melee Blackbeard can bypass it, if it uses an extra quick to boost/grapple to it. Paracausal Mod and similar passives with no action investment are the outlier in these situations, I think.

That said I totally understand the arguments that Siege Armor doesn’t actually help much on the defender plan vs Artillery (which may be intended design: crb Goliath is definitely more effective at close range than long).

I have run CRB Goliaths in a few situations and can confirm siege armor is much more viable vs a midliner compared to a close ranger though. I don’t think I’ve run them in situations where long range damagers came into question though.

orchid ledge
#

I don't mind long range characters dancing outside range, that feels good and fair to me

rose hamlet
#

I imagine that I’d need to setup like, a long Escort Map with an initial CRB Goliath deployment vs long range PCs to gauge the number of actions taken to kill it

orchid ledge
#

Yeah like i mentioned, my table has a ton of shred so would mr vanilla last all that longer? Probably not

#

But that's why my first thought was an hp bump over resistance

rose hamlet
#

Yeah but tbf Shred must be inflicted somehow

#

That lock on to proc Monarch passive is an opportunity cost

orchid ledge
#

To be clear i don't care about siege armor, what i care about is that Goliath has slightly a larger dead zone in which he can't affect players. Mag gauntlet still has to be in sensors to work

#

At speed 3, that 2 sensor reduction can result in a turn of nothing

rose hamlet
#

Hm. I do wonder, if higher scaling on HP would be tenable on rebake Goliath

#

Instead of 5 per tier, 10 per tier? I don’t know if that extra 5 would’ve saved you though, pigs haha

orchid ledge
#

Lmao no probably not

#

He was melted

rose hamlet
#

Well, maybe I’m misspeaking. I don’t know if it would’ve bought you another player action or two

#

NPCs are largely doomed when they hit the field

orchid ledge
#

I think I'd prefer the 2 bang over a recharge just because i do think it's a fun dynamic

#

But yeah ultimately as a frequent bombard enjoyer, what i found was that my abilities i could always depend on were suddenly uncertain gambles, but I'm still putting out the same amount of damage. It's a reasonable nerf to a strong unit

#

Which begs the question, would that make it easier to field 2? I'm not so sure. More than likely I'd have two bombards with the same gun but i just don't use their features as much

#

Reiterating - i don't hate this

#

Now that i understand the new flow better i want to give it another go with an opfor that's built more solidly around it

rose hamlet
orchid ledge
#

I think pursuing other options would def be more interesting

#

My admittedly cheeky comments about health aside, nu-goliath was a real fun unit to use

#

I think i prefer mag being an optional. Turning Goliath from tar pit to CC demon is cool as an optional. As base kit it's too much of an identity shift

#

It's good where it is

finite egret
rose hamlet
orchid ledge
#

Good question, I'd have to check the logs but i do think it was 2 quicks, yes

#

Fully stacked deaths head (no core power tho) shot took out half it's pool, everest took out the other

wheat mortar
#

that's a pretty big investment of systems tho

orchid ledge
#

I don't remember anyone else shooting it

#

It is!

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I don't disagree

wheat mortar
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bulletsponges are hard to design well

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its either not fitting the brief or is a slog

orchid ledge
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fwiw im polling my players now and they are expressing enthusiastic approval of the bombard special ammo changes

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so fuck me i guess

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but what do players know, theyre less than scum

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in the cold light of morning im much more forgiving of the new special ammo rules. i think theyll sing if the opfor builds into it

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and if the opfor doesnt build into it then you dont get free prone with 12 damage

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and thats, like, fair

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yknow?

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but i do think having a small party count could be a big issue

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so dropping the requirement to 2 is not out of hat

fringe peak
rose hamlet
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The classic beeg steppies

fringe peak
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yes, the big steppies

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however part of the appeal is that it is a big slow guy.