The NPC Rebake Project and NPC Tinkering Power Zone (NO MULTIATTACKERS ALLOWED)

[indigo oasis]

I have seen other homebrew that does “Limitless but to with an extra point”, so if removing redundancies was an idea perhaps renaming the feature and adding a Danger Zone bonus could be interesting

Fair- Ultras are “centerpieces” though, so they’re hard to keep out of mind.

[blissful lion]

yea

[indigo oasis]

Something like “The Ultra can Overcharge. [insert text for that]. Additionally, while in the Danger Zone the Ultra gains accuracy on all attacks, checks, and saves.”

[vale crescent]

I wouldn't call Argus armour a defender trait. It's a defensive ability. Surprisingly there's a difference. Defender traits orient around stopping their allies from dying or contesting points. Defensive traits orient around stopping themself from dying

[indigo oasis]

As a random spitballed example

[vale crescent]

No please, no NucCav NPC 😩

[indigo oasis]

Tru, it was just a general framework to work within for coming up with stuff

[indigo oasis]

Ideally that wouldn’t be the bonus as that is extremely potent

[vale crescent]

(If a player spend a lot of resources doing an all out attack and one shotting a defender. Then that defender did its job))

[indigo oasis]

Might be better if I do this brainstorming elsewhere actually, this is getting off topic

[brisk flax]

So I think my take on NPC danger zone stuff is thus: PC side danger zone builds are oriented around getting in the danger zone but also STAYING there, using a variety of components like Mathur Stop, the fuel rod gun, specific heat tax curation to keep your heat gauge managed. NPCs lack those tools, and thus the issue with keying things to the Danger Zone is it's simply too swingy. Once an Ultra is in the DZ, for example, they really don't have any way to CURATE their heat unless I also invent those tools to give it, and the result is that DZ-linked effects pop off and on as the Ultra's heat gauge gets blown apart by stress

the Danger Zone doesn't really work well as a "bloodied" type state, because in 4E you don't have wraparound HP bars

once you're at the halfway point, you are probably stuck there

[indigo oasis]

Danger Zone is definitely a different design space

[brisk flax]

heat cap is a carousel

[neon blaze]

i think my take on NPC danger zone mechanics is thats its ultimately a framework that works much better for bespoke NPCs than it does for a template that can be thrown on to anything

[brisk flax]

UNLESS you have ways to keep it more locked in place

[indigo oasis]

More reasons for an NPC to stabilize is something I’m in favor of however

[brisk flax]

yeah

if I was going to do this, I would do it in the form of "here is an NPC that has its own Mathur Stop alike ability baked in"

[neon blaze]

as Kai points out you kind of need a bunch of tools to make danger zone play work out, you can't just throw one thing on and call it a day

the Elemental (mine, not Kai's) literally does just have Mathur Stop 1:1 to allow it to keep deathballing the way it does

I could also maybe argue that a bespoke template akin to Spacer and such could work (Castor & Pollux does just that I believe) seeing you can curate the base options a bit better, but i've not tried that myself

[indigo oasis]

A point could be argued those tools aren’t entirely necessary, due to them being somewhat limited in terms of access even on the player side. However I will not argue that rn

[blissful lion]

Also if the PCs clue into 'they take a lot of heat sometimes' they might just coordinate hacks and drop tons of heat on them (though don't do that against PCs or they get pissy 👀)

especially for a boss, that could be tough

A danger zone template would be interesting though

[indigo oasis]

Tbh I don’t think that’s a bad thing, but that is a fair concern

[vale crescent]

Sounds like counterplay

[blissful lion]

I'm just not sure if it's interesting counterplay that makes the combat better

[young swan]

backreading a lot @rose hamlet where would i find any NPCs you did takes on?

[brittle cipher]

Valk's stuff can be found in #1254229800952922193 i believe

[young swan]

ty!

[arctic stag]

ran a combat yesterday:

• mirage: good shit, no notes, didnt get a lot of chances to use their reactions tho due to paracausal dmg being utilized in my party's attacks or sight lines being restricted
• aegis: i havent seen the heat gain aspect of defense net being proc'd at all due to attacks hitting or due to players just not attacking. i have ring of fire as an optional but maybe this aspect might see more play with other optionals? idk
• pyro: i like the range on firebreak a lot, which is the most notable change. having explosive jet be auto-recharge is interesting but the map i had didnt allow me to utilize it well. also had a lancaster which meant my pyro was useless against them

how much work has been done on the ultra template? im gonna be running an ultra fight and would love to test out whatever changes are being made

[surreal zenith]

It's up

[arctic stag]

hell yeah

what about veteran

[brisk flax]

also done

[arctic stag]

i havent tested those out im so sad

😔

[arctic stag]

oh that would explain it

i can test those next week

any thoughts on the feedback kai?

[brisk flax]

kinda doesn't sound like much happened of note, like it seems that things are generally working okay without any major standouts

which hey, great, I'll take it

[arctic stag]

mainly re: defense net

its not a major issue i think but maybe its something just due to optimized play (people getting the accuracy bonuses and such)

[brisk flax]

yeah, I don't expect it to necessarily be, like, a thing that occurs on a constant basis so much as a thing that adds a potential layer of engagement

IF the aegis is causing lots of attacks to miss, then the heat starts to ramp up and can potentially serve as a means to disable it

if it's not causing attacks to miss, then you don't really need that

[arctic stag]

okay gotcha

i suppose i was sorta expecting that to be A Thing

[indigo oasis]

Oh I forgot about the Aegis heat mechanic- I am quite curious about testing that now, it seems like a fun gimmick

As a small streamlining suggestion for Aegis, perhaps "all ranged, melee, and tech attacks" could be reduced to "all attacks," ala Nuc Cav 1. However I understand the choice to keep it if clarity is a higher priority

[brisk flax]

I did notice that and will probably go back and hit it

I think there's some value in it in the sense of people probably aren't expecting it to affect tech stuff

[indigo oasis]

Yeah, same reason people can be surprised NucCav 1 includes tech attacks

[brisk flax]

like the player-facing enclave shield is ranged and melee only

[indigo oasis]

It's a small thing ultimately

[indigo oasis]

(if it were up to me it'd be all attacks)

[arctic stag]

question about SCL

does it require 2 full actions?

one to activate, one to fire?

[indigo oasis]

Not from the way I'm reading it. What makes it look like it requires 2 Full Actions? (genuine question)

[arctic stag]

it has the full action tag

This powerful lance weapon begins charging during the Ultra's turn
which implies to me it only starts charging with a full action

[indigo oasis]

Ah yeah, the repetition probably is just there to clarify what actions it uses to fire- like with player side equipment having tags like "Protocol" and "Full Action" while detailing how those two specifically interact with the system, like Hardlight Shield

For stuff like "at a glance analysis"

[arctic stag]

thanks

[indigo oasis]

I understand that rebaking the non-core NPCs is absolutely beyond the scope (and copyright) of this project- but out of curiosity and potentially wanting to do my own home fixes, are there any aspects of the non-core NPCs y'all think could use rebaking? From my knowledge they appear to not fall into the same pitfalls as the core NPCs that prompted this project, but I could've easily missed something

[arctic stag]

has a rebake of other templates been discussed at all?

[surreal zenith]

iirc Kai acknowledged the possibility but isn't super interested in it

so i wouldn't expect them

[arctic stag]

gotcha, thanks

[brisk flax]

nope, it charges, then you use a full action to actually activate it

formatting-wise, things get the action tag that is required to use them regardless of when or how that action cost arises

[arctic stag]

many thanks

[wheat mortar]

Used the rebaked: Assassin, Hive, Rainmaker, Sentinel, and Support. Along with the Veteran rebake.

The overcharge on veteran is awesome and really makes the players go whaaat?!

Assassin was taken out really quickly but also isn't changed too much.

Hive range increase is fantastic and got alot of use, the seeker cloud rebake is really nice gives the players clear choice with regard to forcing the hive to move. On the GM side I liked that I could choose to use the quick action to redeploy it or the protocol to scoot it while making full use of the actions. Command override is really cool and felt like an epic power when I was able to use it on 3 drones (2 PC gun turrets and the NPC support restock drone) was really fun using the burn on the gun turret that i knocked the other into as well as inflicting the burn on the PC i moved the restock next to and then moved the hive into adjacency to consume it.

Rainmaker was interesting, I didn't miss the reliable on the missiles and felt like it tuned it down and the Skyhammer is really neat for being able to get the lock-on for huntsman and be a bit more usable than the javelins. The combo of the Skyhammer and Razer Swarms was really fun to lock down the movement lanes. Sadly a quick structure damage on the veteran lost the hades missiles before I could get a good shot, the players also did great at spreading out.

Sentinel rebake is also great, really makes it feel like a defender, it locked down two players it got near for half the combat as the reliable damage was punishing on-top of the punisher ammo/impale. Sadly the assassin died too quick to make full use of the status inflictions but I was surprised at how much space the Sentinel was able to control with it's very presence.

I was using the empowered cloud on the support which was really flavourful as it took on heat to help it's allies, the speed increase was also quite helpful as it was able to get into range for a clutch sealent gun.

[carmine idol]

We should be done with it by Tuesday or Wednesday, it's chunky

[brisk flax]

yeah I figured it'd take some work

[brisk flax]

also thanks for the feedback, this is some of the most extensive rebake hive feedback I've gotten and I'm glad to know it's working well

[daring surge]

Hi Kai, I tried asking in the rules question but didn't get a conclusive answer. I saw that you mentioned the Titansnare Drone releases its effect in pulses.

Does that mean on my turn, I can be inflicted by the immobilisation and then purge it via BT2, or am I "snared" by the drone indefinitely like a grapple?

[brisk flax]

Nothing in the Titan-Snare Drone's wording indicates that it can't be cleared by things like Stabilize, Black Thumb, etc

[daring surge]

Thank you, was wondering if it's like a Hornet's stake

[brisk flax]

if you continue to hang around in the area then you may end up getting Immobilized again, but it's different from the lock/hold javelins, yeah

the "released in pulses" thing was more me responding to someone asking if it, like, fired harpoons into people

narratively it appears to just be like a sort of EMP thing

[daring surge]

I'm currently staring one in the optical ports right now, with multiple enemy units group hugging me. It's good to know I can attempt to valiantly run away.

[vale crescent]

Sooo uuh, for the LCP... Is the newest one the full caps or the lower case one?

I assume this is a, it was changed in a commit so now I have both because the old wasn't overwritten

[subtle nacelle]

the not capslock one is the newest

[twilit coral]

Apologies since this has probably been asked in here before but discord search is awful for forums: Were these rebakes made with the usual 0-2 optional features in mind or a more specific number (e.g. 1 per tier)?

[carmine idol]

I was under the impression the standard 0-2 is used, at least that's how I applied them 🤔

[twilit coral]

Yeah idk maybe I should've just inferred that

[carmine idol]

Nw, Kai will prolly have a reply later - I'm just muddying the waters by adding "i have no idea" xD

[twilit coral]

I guess what I really want to know is kai's philosophy of assigning optional features to NPCs, but especially in the context of the rebake.

[wheat mortar]

the average number of optionals available for the rebaked NPCs is lower than in the core

[rose hamlet]

Is it? To my knowledge they all have 5 optionals in both cases. Core books would just sometimes list two blocks for an action + reaction that were still part of a single feature (and unfortunately the compcon data separates them into two features, which may cause a bloated number)

[orchid ledge]

all core book NPCs and wallflower NPCs have 5 optionals

as valk said, comp/con can be deceiving because of reactions that might be tied to a trait

leeches and the two "setpiece" NPCs are the only ones with more

[rose hamlet]

Archer reactions my beloathed

[orchid ledge]

(i know this because when i dont know what optional to go with ill often roll 1D6, reroll on 6)

[rose hamlet]

Still mad at myself for missing the Got Your Back reaction 2 years ago when combing through the reactions (an issue that has plagued folks since)

[orchid ledge]

even thinking about vanilla archer's optionals makes me frustrated lmao

[vale crescent]

Hey look

It isn't as bad as striders on comp/con

[vale crescent]

I was gonna say, "Wait... Is the acrobat hornet trait good? It doesn't ignore engagement and reactions!" so I was gonna ask what the point was until I realised "wait, first reaction is a miss" so uuuh... that actually works real well so 10/10 no complaints

[wheat mortar]

thank you for the correction

[brisk flax]

None of that has changed or is intended to

[brisk flax]

Also the thing is, the hornet is flying and probably at range 5, the number of reaction attacks it's likely facing from PCs are fairly thin on the ground

[vale crescent]

I think I'm just worried about if it gets stuck in at melee, and yes... I know it should be flying at range 5 but that didn't stop my player from doing a 25 range charge

I have an unhealthy perception of melee mechs since they either struggle to move travel 30 tiles without thought

[rose hamlet]

When it’s a choice between “doing the thing you wanted to do” and “not being able to do the thing at all” I’m not surprised at the level of movement tech commitment

[brisk flax]

okay but also, like

you can't charge straight upward

maybe I'm missing something but being five spaces vertical to anyone and everyone is a pretty effective defense against weapons that tend to cap out at an effective range of 3

if a hornet is in melee range, it has done something extremely wrong

[indigo oasis]

It depends on how you rule 3 dimensional range and AOE patterns

Ex- If you’re size 1 emitting a burst 2 and are 1 space above the ground, characters on the ground 2 spaces away aren’t in the area because your burst pattern is a sphere, and therefore they’d be outside the radius

Which is a weird thing to visualize but I can attest that it’s how I, when I was a newbie GM, used to run stuff like that. It’s also a big reason to keep hornets lower to the ground- if it’s 5 spaces up its effects only target the space immediately below it for grounded targets

[vale crescent]

It's deffo how hornets should be played. I'm just biased, the times I've played hornets must be just i haven't cracked it yet so doesn't really reflect hornets much at all because they seem to be outliers to the data set. I've tried having hornets high up but then they get sniped due to lack of cover. But recently I try having them low to use cover but then they're in range. The most recent 2 cases I remember: elite hornets was in 0g so that's an outlier, most recent hornets encounter. It was in cover on ground level because of cover because it was hiding and not expected to get a flight cross the map charge from 25 tiles away then barraged

And good rolls

[vale crescent]

Wait so do you do diagonals as 2 hexes?

Doing diagonals as 1:1:1 makes thing easier, especially on hexes where it's basically impossible to do diagonals unless flying so it just simplifies flight

[subtle nacelle]

yea spherical patterns in lancer are more like cubes or pillars than spheres

pi = 4 if you will

[indigo oasis]

Not anymore lol

Nowadays whichever distance is longer (horizontal or vertical) is the diagonal distance with the way I run things

But I can see people making Minecraft spheres out of it, like so

Probably not the intent behind… anything but it’s a point of confusion I can see coming up in general

[brisk flax]

yeah you don't do that, burst 2 is burst 2

[minor tundra]

Ooh, I’ll have to sink my teeth into this project when I get the chance 👁️ It looks interesting

[brisk flax]

hey @carmine idol so I have some bad news, in the sense that I've got a changelog ready to go

I know you guys are still working on the Ultra template, would you prefer that I hold off until that's done

[carmine idol]

Nah no worries, drop away 😎👌

We're done with Ultra template anyways, just going through review rn

[brisk flax]

All right, here is the changelog for February 2025

[brisk flax]

And with THAT posted, there's actually one more thing to post as well

This is the compiled project, all elements in one pdf, including designer notes

[carmine idol]

While we get onto the changelog: behold, bosses

[rose hamlet]

It’s a good day for lovers of NPC-flavored confections

[subtle nacelle]

Thank you! changelogs are a gift most pure

[carmine idol]

Wait did we still not fix the barricade size? 👁️👄👁️

[wise creek]

as a perma gm for lancer, npcs are how i get my homebrew fix the same way other people do for frames/licenses

[brisk flax]

I added that a while back, maybe you did

This has been a thing I've been keeping tabs on for a while so I just tossed it in there as I went

[brittle cipher]

REAL

[brisk flax]

so some of these may already be changed/updated, and if so you can ignore them

[indigo oasis]

I Think you did actually

[midnight hazel]

raises hand

Lord Tave, have you removed Juggernaut from the ultra template?

because that shit is irritating as a player and as a GM alike

[wise creek]

bad news

[midnight hazel]

nah yknow what I'll accept that

it means ultras can't just "nuh uh" conditions or the consequences of structure and stress for free

[rose hamlet]

Absolute 113 page monster of rebake and dev commentary, damn Kai you went hard hahaha

[thorn mural]

Oh, sort of like the Paragon Monster thing

I'm not sure I like that honestly

Becoming Impaired seems like the best option to take from that list, universally

[carmine idol]

If possible would like to request the master doc get the names of each class as headings so it's browsable through table of contents 👀

[thorn mural]

"Downgrade any condition to Impaired" doesn't actually address the issues of the Ultra condition clear

[carmine idol]

It goes a long way as base accuracy has been removed from most rebaked attacks, ergo the difficulty actually does something

or at least feels better

[midnight hazel]

it's christmas

[brisk flax]

There's a whole lot of stuff regarding Juggernaut actually

[young turtle]

Impaired also opens them up to more save systems working on them

[midnight hazel]

although I feel like the heat cost should be higher and/or more consistent

[brisk flax]

counterpoint: it does because I say it does

"Actually this thing you did doesn't address the problem" but have you considered that maybe it does actually

[carmine idol]

We love practical playtesting

[brisk flax]

I will also note that, as mentioned, while the components of this project are modular, a big element of the overall design going into NPC rebakes is shaving down rampant accuracy in the NPC roster

[midnight hazel]

you ought to be sainted for this

[brisk flax]

if you find that Impaired, as a debuff, isn't accomplishing much, I think that a big reason why is that NPCs have a lot more blanket accuracy than they should

and this is something that a lot of individual adjustments have been made for

[rose hamlet]

Tbf the impaired from juggernaut is only current turn (so it doesn’t like, make it easier for a save inflicter after this turn) but I do think it’s more potent than some folks think

[brisk flax]

also yes, this is something I would greatly consider practical playtest feedback more than gut impressions on, sorry but I am extremely not interested in "I read this for 30 seconds and I have some feedback" type feedback

[orchid ledge]

kai a few months ago: might mess around with ronin a little or w/e

kai now: time to make a fuckin paycheck

[young turtle]

I highly appreciate the designer notes btw kai

these are cool

[midnight hazel]

bf and I are making strides in our supplement, we'll more than likely try out these here rebakes during Hypernova playtesting

[brisk flax]

Designer notes for this felt mandatory given the breadth of changes taking place

like, if I didn't actually talk about what I was changing where, I think a lot of it might have been confusing or perhaps overlooked

[thorn mural]

Oops, didn’t realize this wasn’t lancer general

[brisk flax]

It's also worth noting that "stack debuffs on the ultra" remains viable, and even moreso given this version has virtually no blanket immunities, so "become impaired instead" works wonders if the PC party has daintily applied a single condition to the ultra at a time, but turning the usual "which of these three debuffs will you deal with" into "Impaired and two others, pick" is still not leaving them in great shape

[solid pilot]

My next encounter is pretty much all rebaked npcs save for a Prototype Pattern Groups Hatchet (misremembered it as Crisis Core) so I hope I will be able to contribute to the feedback

[midnight hazel]

CRISIS CATALOGUE MENTIONED 🔥 🔥 🔥

[orchid ledge]

oh wow yeah i didnt expect to se the template rebakes here, too

i love the grunt rebake

[solid pilot]

I misremembered where Hatchet was from but I did slap Bruiser and Flyer on a rebaked Archer

[brisk flax]

So this is a good time to mention that there's something in this document which reads
In fact, here are some other NPC-related projects for Lancer that you can check out[...]

and this is being saved for future inclusion of links to other NPC related projects

I don't know what the best way to put out a call for this is, BUT what I will say is that I am opening up the floor for people who have written NPC and adjacent oriented supplements and would like to be mentioned and linked in this project

I have a couple of caveats to this:
1). The particular supplement should be relatively "complete," doesn't have to be "I will never touch this again," but I'm looking for more stuff that's in the realm of "this is 90-100% done" than "I have an idea for a supplement and have written two pages"
2). It should have somewhere I can link to it. Itch works, your own page works, but something that lives exclusively on discord doesn't

If this is something you would be interested in being given a shout out too, please let me know

[midnight hazel]

lancer 3rd party is ETERNAL, baby!

[surreal zenith]

I appreciate this

[indigo oasis]

I do love designer notes- seeing the reasoning behind design is an easy way to sell me on the design. I presume it’s planned to be kept around for the final version?

[brisk flax]

I know speaking purely for myself I would love to give a shout out to @neon blaze and their Squad stuff, though I don't know if it's linked anywhere outside of discord

[brisk flax]

yes

what you're reading is, barring editing, the actual thing

[young turtle]

So if i made a pdf for my Trickster npc would that count as something you'd link to?

(and an itch page)

[midnight hazel]

one day I'll finish and official-ize my Brimstone NPCs

[brisk flax]

Sure

[midnight hazel]

cause I'm proud of those weird bastards

[solid pilot]

oh wait shit the veteran and ultra changes dropped- I mean I should have guessed but like

[brisk flax]

Size of the supplement doesn't really matter so much as it being "complete" and something I can give a link to (as opposed to "idk rummage around on a discord server")

I will also probably cut off the number of shout outs I give at a certain point but that doesn't need to be a consideration for the moment

[solid pilot]

I guess I'm losing even more time to fuck with my end of Mission Boss (Pequod Trio with the serial numbers filed off)

[orchid ledge]

i hadnt seen these new ultra optionals before but this is the kinda shit i meant when i lamented the lack of cool toys

these are some cool fuckin toys

even new guns!

[brisk flax]

And speaking of playtesting, if you're gonna do that my advice is try to do it soon, I would like to consider moving towards publishing this thing sometime this year if possible rather than the usual cycle of "idk, 1-2 years"

[orchid ledge]

i already got some notes piling up on bombard, goliath, and witch

pending encounter end

[brisk flax]

oh hell yeah

[orchid ledge]

i slotted mag gauntlet in so fast my mouse cracked in half

[trail pivot]

Oh hey nice, congrats!

[brisk flax]

anyway everyone needs to run five Ultra fights within the next few months or so, thanks

[brittle cipher]

On it boss

[orchid ledge]

my players are going to hunt me and my family for sport but it should be worth it

[rose hamlet]

If you’re offering… I’ll link Prototype Pattern Groups for consideration. It’s something I actively tweak, but relatively stable. No worries if it doesn’t meet criteria though, this is your project doc, not mine haha

[orchid ledge]

PPG mechs absolutely fuck

[brittle cipher]

I expect my OSR players to reach Kiros soon-ish (month or so), so I'll drop my thoughts on that in here once I've run it.

[brisk flax]

Nope, this works fine and I would be happy to do so

[brittle cipher]

Or maybe they reach him on Friday if they decide to hit up the hall before the harbor, who knows lmao

[brisk flax]

Let me know by the way how you would like to be credited, is Valkyrion it or something else?

[rose hamlet]

Valkyrion is fine for this purpose

I appreciate it! 😄

[brisk flax]

the funny thing is you can recreate Kiros more or less 1-1 in terms of options taken

all of those systems, traits, etc still exist in terms of the rebake

Nova Missiles are now an ultra weapon specifically, everything else is where it used to be

a lot of it works differently now, but the build is 100% still there

[eternal jasper]

Hell yeah, grats on the doc release! My goon platoon’s got an Ultra on the docket for this Sunday, so I’ll be taking some Rebake editions out for a spin

[carmine idol]

@brisk flax Just double checking, this is Orbital Strike?

[brisk flax]

oh yeah

Orbital Strike is the name, just a typo

[carmine idol]

Superb 😎👌 wasn't sure whether to change the name of the system

[eternal jasper]

Any particular NPCs and/or templates that you would like to see feedback on, Kai, or are they all free game?

[brisk flax]

Everything would be appreciated, though unironically I do think the Ultra template is something I could use a good clip of feedback on

I understand that's a tall order, it's a lot of moving parts, but that's sort of why

But I will take whatever I can get

[indigo oasis]

I am tempted to use it soon, but the next Ultra my players are encountering is a 3rd party NPC, and considering it’s a weird one I’d rather not stack more new gimmicks on it T-T

[brisk flax]

very understandable

playtesting should never feel like an onus or obligation or anything, if you can't or don't feel like it then don't worry about it

[carmine idol]

took us 44 minutes 😎

doing checks now lol

[ancient forge]

I am very tempted to use some of these in my wallflower game

[solid pilot]

is there anyway to overwrite the old version of the rebake with the new version or will I just have to manually redo NPCs made between versions if I don't want to have duplicated NPC options?

[orchid ledge]

my ultra schedule is also booked until the end of the campaign unfortunately lol

my next 4 bossees are all raid style because im diseased

but i might be able to convince my players to run a scrim or two with the template, theyve been GMing more for their own shit

[carmine idol]

I'm suprised the versioning isn't working for you - we're on 1.15.0 now and it should be prompting to just replace it? 🤔

For example, I notice you've got the default 1.5.1 old versioning for some reason

[brisk flax]

Something I could always do with this, looping back to an earlier convo, is have the Juggernaut Impaired be a "start of next turn" thing to open up more save stuff

[solid pilot]

yeah I tried deleting the new rebake with the ultra and trying to redownload it but

[carmine idol]

I can't say I'm sure, just to double check you're downloading the lcp from the release section?

[rose hamlet]

Might be worth discussing in #comp-con too

[solid pilot]

I'm downloading from the main branch so- pretty sure?

unless I'm dumb

[rose hamlet]

Also unrelated but @carmine idol if this eventually becomes an itchio project, there’s some github actions that can be configured for deploying a release to itchio via Butler

[carmine idol]

Oooo thank you for this, noted and will keep in mind, will likely need a hand from you and Eleonor come then ~u~

[carmine idol]

dm'd yah

[indigo oasis]

On paper I’m personally not a fan, but “on paper” don’t mean much

[brisk flax]

I guess I'm unsure why you would be not a fan either tbh

[pulsar hound]

All checks done, here's your changelog update

[rose hamlet]

Example here from the massif press org workflows: https://github.com/massif-press/.github/blob/master/.github/workflows/butler-publish.yml

[subtle nacelle]

the release page has the latest lcp, not the code or branch itself

[solid pilot]

yeah I did figure that out

[brisk flax]

Anyway I won't be making any changed to Juggernaut until I get some actual actionable feedback, this is all still fairly fresh out of the oven

[eternal jasper]

Kickass, sounds good! Sunday's boss is shaping up to be an Ultra Sniper, I'll see what other beastlings get tossed in - Support with the clown car optional (Desant Hardpoints) and Pyro look hella fun so I wonder if I can shove them in too

[vale crescent]

Juggernaut should be rebalanced I think juggernaut should just be immune to everything on paper 😠 /j

[carmine idol]

Support carrying ultra sniper around sounds veritably evil

[brisk flax]

anyway everyone thank @young turtle for this one

[young turtle]

I'm just that good man

[carmine idol]

Thanks eld :D

[young turtle]

this bookmark shit is easy

[eternal jasper]

I operate on a simple philosophy for boss fights… /s

They’ll be fine, they got plenty of resources even after the first fights. I’ll try and strongarm ‘em into handing over feedback too

[ancient forge]

Oh wait, the name of this project is specifically a nod to the Gusion Rebake? If that was already known I totally missed it

That's one of my favorites

[young turtle]

Gusion Rebake the GOAT

Space Guts may only know suffering but at least he suffered in style

this fucking rules dude

[brisk flax]

Ace with Feign Death

make the most unkillable bastard known to man

[echo wolf]

hey, I recognize this (XCOM)
real talk though, incredibly good optional to give to the archer to promote team play

[brisk flax]

pair that with the Assault for a fun time

[ebon crow]

how/what do i download for the lcp?

[pine epoch]

does dark cloud trigger if the target is in the danger zone at the time of tear down or if they're in the danger zone when the follow up goes off?

[indigo oasis]

Personally I think the “Condition downgrading” works well as is. If the Impair lasted longer, It’d be very easy to trap an Ultra in a perma-impair death spiral as a not-insignificant number of save effects apply conditions.

Apply conditions -> The ultra turns them into impair -> They’re vulnerable to more conditions and are now suddenly stuck with nearly every one in the game.

It makes it easier to toss an ultra into a death spiral, the very thing Juggernaut is designed to mitigate… on paper. Which again, doesn’t mean much.

With or without the accuracy trimming, downgrading one, maybe 2 conditions to an impair seems fine enough to me. It affects checks for the purposes of grapple contests, any effects that require a check or save on the Ultra’s turn, and attacks too- which with all the guns ultras get feels like plenty.

Again, this is all on paper, so I’m also waiting to hear and hopefully see how the current version works in practice before I make any of these opinions more concrete

[brisk flax]

the latter

that's how it works in the CRB and this version is unchanged, Dark Cloud is making the looming threat even bigger

[brisk flax]

gotcha, and I am sort of mindful of that, so I'm not leaping to make the change

[subtle nacelle]

We have a github for the LCP. Im linking to the release page where you can download the latest one
https://github.com/Shteb/Kais-NPC-Rebake-LCP/releases/

[solid pilot]

reading the design notes behind the engineer is making me realize that I can probably make the engineer ship I kinda dropped from my earlier campaign encounters feel a lot less bad for my players

[young turtle]

Okay i've finished reading some npcs but I read the most important one

you have my seal of approval for the new Hive

[bold crystal]

reading through the design notes and, preliminarily, feeling quite positive about this.
(at one point, my GM ran an ultra operator with halved range+a more limited multiattack and it was still absolutely vicious, so anything that makes it less stupid is very good in my eyes)

[neon blaze]

not yet: I have plans to throw it on Itch but I'm kind of cleaning the document so it PDFs well and changing some stuff up (while sliding in additional content) first. formatting is a bitch, as is LCP editing

[orchid ledge]

additional content

[brisk flax]

damn, this is how you know you hit it big

[brisk flax]

Gotcha, well let me know if you do put it up there, because I would love to give it a mention

[bold crystal]

also explicitly noting that some of the weapons that do conditional double damage don't double bonus damage is quite good because it's one of the other ways for enemy damage to get wildly out of hand

[neon blaze]

I will keep that in mind, sure

[brisk flax]

YEP

I realized that on the back end like "wait a second, this fucking sucks"

[pine epoch]

i used to pray for NPCs like these

[brisk flax]

yeah man lemme make an extra deadly assassin and accidentally roll +24 bonus damage

[solid pilot]

I think my players did not appreciate the system with base game Hornets- but that's probably more because I had multiple of them with the system lmao

[spice aspen]

hi I'm my GM

this is the first time I'm hearing of this! these are very interesting changes

How many times have your Elite Demolishers lost their hammer?
as a funny anecdote, this has happened frequently enough in my groups that I have a sticker for it showing the token art I change to whenever it happens

this all seems very coherently put together so far and I'm quite excited to read through it

[brisk flax]

I learned that Demolisher lesson hard

[bold crystal]

it happens literally so often so seeing a second weapon in the demo statblock was very satisfying.

[brisk flax]

yeah that covers all your bases even if you aren't using the alternate structure table

[spice aspen]

at one point I made an elite veteran demolisher with acrobat and a second hammer, and named them Punished Demo, just so that it wouldn't happen again

[bold crystal]

oh thank god barricade cube isn't recharge

[trim field]

In the battle earlier tonight, I had a rebake engineer with six turrets belonging to it on the field, posing a threat to the striker of our team.
So my chomolungma player used a wide area code pulse in order to clear the turrets.

I'm pretty sure she wouldn't have done that if the turret wasn't only hp1, hp1 turrets make clearing the turret a possible option.
But she also felt remorse after the Engineer continued to deploy new turrets, saying things like “I guess I had to get rid of the Engineer first”.

I think the turret HP change makes direct turret removal a more attractive option, but it's a little hard to tell if it's tactically effective.

[brisk flax]

Well going from 6 turrets to no turrets to 2 turrets is still a pretty big swing, is how I would look at it

You're always going to have to kill the Engineer, no two ways about it, but being able to do things like lob a grenade and kill some turrets or plink them away with paired aux pistols or something means being able to suppress exactly how much damage the Engineer can bring to bear at any given moment

this becomes especially relevant taking optionals like Deployable Fortifications or Repurpose into account

[bold crystal]

on repeater cannon, I will also note that it doesn't do its job, as written, because it's an ordnance weapon and thus cannot actually get a striker off the bombard. it's just useless, and the bombard doesn't have any quick actions of note that make it better than just trying to hit them with the bombard cannon.

[brisk flax]

I mean I figure the intent is for the bombard to use the repeater cannon against people who are close but not necessarily within direct engagement but yeah idk it's a bad weapon and I don't care about it

[trim field]

I've left out a few details, but actually wcp destroyed three turrets (the other three didn't hit), and two more teammates destroyed one turret each.
So the numbers fluctuate from 6>3>2>1>3.

... My players really spent a lot of action on the turrets

But yes, I just thought about it.

The Engineer's position makes me pretty sure that my players will have a hard time eliminating him in one round, so if they choose to deal with the Engineer and don't succeed, then the surviving turrets will have a chance to take out their striker's structure twice

From this point of view, they made the right decision to deal with the turret first.
Otherwise, there is a high chance that they would have lost one of their strikers.

and if the turrets' hp had stayed the same, this option (reducing the turrets first) would have been completely out of the question.🤔

[brisk flax]

yeah, you CAN eliminate engineer turrets in the CRB version but it's usually more of an incidental byproduct of AoE damage

like a plasma thrower can probably do a good job at clearing them, but it's not a thing you'll be looking to do deliberately

[young turtle]

Way I see it, they're like this here because it makes destroying an actual viable choice rather than a non choice for most groups compared to just shooting the engineer

[brisk flax]

pretty much

[young turtle]

Like the goal is always going to be to take the npc itself out, but now there's more ways to impede their plans

[brisk flax]

and it's worth keeping in mind that 1 HP turrets don't have the "no damage on a failed save" clause the grunt template does

just drop a frag grenade and you can instant wipe out a bunch

the engineer can space them out, but the targeting restrictions on them make that a balancing act

[pine epoch]

i feel like this is a cool idea but might also be a bit annoying to keep track of in terms of overhead?

[brisk flax]

Possibly, but I feel like that's a case where the GM can say "hey, keep track of this yourself"

[fringe peak]

i very muchenjoy rebaked specter. it seems very interesting and fun

[ancient forge]

This was actually the decisive moment in a recent combat I ran. My players likely would have lost the object if the demolisher hadn't dropped its hammer. Curious how that encounter would've gone with the rebaked demolisher though, cause it was a special objective that involved protecting a stationary object, and the automatic 10 damage to an object in range 2 could've been ... trouble

Might've needed to put more space between the enemy deployment zone and the objective

[wise creek]

idk if you mentioned it already kai, but do you plan on tackling the wallflower npcs?

[brisk flax]

so I originally hinted at doing it when I was just messing around, but with this shaping up to be a thing I look at actual publication for, I think I'm probably going to not do so

[wise creek]

ah understood. regardless, do you think the wallflower npcs are in a better spot than the core ones, or is just more of the same issues cropping up

[brisk flax]

I think their accuracy baseline is in a better spot, maybe even a scooch too low in places (a lot of flat +0, I do think NPC accuracy needs to scale even if only slightly)

I prefer +0/1/2 as a scaling dynamic for cases like that, for example, or +0, +1 Accuracy

I think there are probably areas where they could be shored up or changed around

like if I had it my way I would specify that the Avenger can't kill one of their own guys to trigger their deal, for example, and I'd probably look at some other stuff on the side

[neon blaze]

yeah +0 isn't bad on its own but does not hold up in the longer term, so gaining Accuracy as scaling has been something I kinda wanted to explore myself

[fathom root]

the rebaked scout is missing something

[brisk flax]

Probably has to do with the fact that one of the optionals got yanked and replaced

used to be Scout Drone, now it's Sensor Link

so my guess is somewhere in the update, something got knocked out of alignment

[subtle nacelle]

this is an ID mismatch, i'll log it as a bug

[carmine idol]

oops

[wheat mortar]

amazing work, thank you so much

i thought the delta green community was amazing but the lancer community has taken it to another level with regard to third party documents, first party participation, and all the amazing art-work and pure passion

[carmine idol]

unhealthy 🤖 obsession 👁️👄👁️

for real tho these people are fkin awesome

[indigo oasis]

If a character with Sniper’s Mark is in cover and triggers the Moving Target reaction, is the intent that the sniper unable to attack them despite already having the mark because they’re benefitting from cover and therefore ignoring the effects, or..? realized that having the mark and ignoring its effects are two different things, nevermind

[young turtle]

@brisk flax page 22 designer notes say "in the case of the Bastion" when it should say "in the case of the Barricade"

[bold crystal]

love the demolisher tweaks overall - and I very much agree that Acrobat is often very uninteresting - it basically turns a demolisher into a weird bespoke ronin-style striker rather than 'don't come over here or I'll bonk you into next week' like it seems to have generally been intended to be.

very much appreciate the change to make engineer turrets only ever shoot at EoT; the question 'do engineer turrets shoot the turn they're deployed' comes up a lot

it might be good to have a little 'this impaired applies to that attack' on Umbral Interdiction(or some similar wording), just so it's absolutely clear that it's supposed to make that attack more difficult.(which is implied in the design notes but not necessarily clear)

[zealous saddle]

this is so interesting 👀 definitely following this to try for some of my games

-# reading through the document rn, i'll likely figure this out soon so this is more a stupid question but is there a meaning to the colors on the traits? e.g. green = something new, teal = edited from a previous trait, red = ??

[bold crystal]

it's just ability coloring; traits are red reactions are pink etc

[neon blaze]

they mirror the colour coding of systems in the core book

[bold crystal]

same as the book basically

I love the additional line of text on the Hound missile. it's otherwise the same, but the added texture of 'if you try to move it it might target you so good luck with that' adds a lot. like grappling with a wild dog, which feels appropriate.

love the seeder rework; the general play for seeders on digital tables, if you were obeying the 'mines are not visible to players' thing, was 'okay, mark a burst 3 area around the seeder. don't go into there because there could be a mine anywhere in it', which is functional as a gameplay thing but is annoying for both the players and GM. just having them be normal visible mines is a lot easier.

also, Last Line is just great. fun and interesting in multiple ways.

...I have legitimately forgotten, often, that Moving Target is not a default Sniper feature. it's probably for the best that it loses the automatic reload just so that the Sniper's absolutely miserable action economy gets more of a spotlight.

[young turtle]

Its one of those things that sees disproportionately more use than it realistically was intended to because a lot of GMs don't want to both with spending a turn reloading or doing other things lol

not a knock on them, to be clear

[bold crystal]

yeah, exactly. but the sniper is also balanced around having half its turns be gigantic 'do nothing' full actions

[young turtle]

But that new version looks a lot more like people won't feel like its a "must have optional" imo

[bold crystal]

the bespoke grunts are great, and I especially like the controller and defender grunts getting 'ignore one hit of heat' and 'an overshield' respectively - they're still tiny and fragile but it's good for texture. I'm not sure the Defender-type has quite enough going for it otherwise but that'd have to shake out in playtests.

[hollow steppe]

To be fair Defender & No Health is a hard sell no matter how you swing it

[bold crystal]

the bespoke per-class veteran optionals are neat, and baking limitless directly into it makes the 'why put this template on something' a lot more clear - you want it to just do more stuff, but not too much more stuff.

also very in favor of ultras not having their condition clear/weapon repair be free - even when the players are, strictly, winning the fight on attrition and etc, 'ha ha! I've gotten Immobilized/Stunned/Jammed onto the ultra so it can't do things I don't want!' [it starts its turn and does things with no penalty] is just a bad-feeling interaction.

[fathom root]

superhot on Pyro doesn't list the trigger for the reaction

and appears as a system rather than a reaction on compcon

[bold crystal]

love all the ultra optionals - especially the support/mobility options and the additional weapon choices.

[fathom root]

@brisk flax for the monowire sword, does it mean "pc has 2 armor, when hit by sword it's as if they had 4"?

[zealous saddle]

gotcha, thank you!

[surreal zenith]

yep

[neon hemlock]

@brisk flax providing feedback.

Operator Rebaked

• My players liked the changes applied on the rebaked version of the Operator, the removal of the multiattack to its Raptor Plasma Rifle is heavily praised (plus not to mention its reduced Range as well).

*as quoted *
"Now its a fair fight since the thing (Operator) only gets to shoot twice instead of three times, even if it had Limitless."

Seeder Rebaked

• Really loved the new Speed Deployer, now being able to just deploy 3 mines in one go, really gives the Seeder more time to do other things besides from staring at the ground and manifesting destiny to setup mines.

Ace Rebaked

• Emergency Jettison, is such a funny trait my players where suprised when the Ace laded on the ground instead of dying (since my players always focus fire an Ace when its enters a scene)

Class Grunts

• Is also something my playes noted that made them go "Wow, thats a new one, no more boring same NPC grunts" since it gave more flavor to the Grunts itself. Honorable mention on Electro-Chaff!

Overall this is a really good experience looking forward to this being published fully.

[subtle nacelle]

The Engineer's Auto-Tracking reaction costs the engineer's reaction right? like GMS Turret Drones??

[echo wolf]

It's a reaction system, isn't it?

It should say what action is used to activate it in the second line, right under the name

[neon hemlock]

Nova Missile is now Kinetic damage on the Rebake LCP? (was tinkering around to find where the Operators Nova Missile went)

[subtle nacelle]

it is a reaction. the wording almost made it seem like it was an automatic effect, rather than a Reaction™️

[indigo oasis]

Oh those should be energy.

@carmine idol Hope it’s not already in the change log but found Nova Missile’s dealing Kinetic instead of Energy

[subtle nacelle]

I got it, ty ty

[unreal light]

Oh wow cool to see them altogether now. Really liking the look of the hornet - inflicting it on my impaired hating players will be a lot of fun

[brisk flax]

Hokay, back at my desk, time to ping a bunch of people in no particular order

[brisk flax]

Yes, this is correct

[brisk flax]

Gotcha, good catch, thanks

[brisk flax]

So to clarify on this, because it's been asked before and because some of the stuff here differs from the core rulebook layout, I'm using what Mina has informed me is a new Lancer standard layout going forward, which was used in Winter Scar and possibly others, though I haven't checked

Specifically, here is how it breaks down now:
1). Red is used for purely passive things, whether they're systems or traits
2). Green is used for anything with a Quick or Full Action cost, regardless of whether it's a system or trait
3). Purple is used for Quick and Full Tech actions
4). Orange is used for Protocols
5). Teal/Cyan is used for Reactions
6). Black is used for weapons

so there will be some differences between this and the core rulebook, for example the Ace's flight system in the CRB is green while here it's red

the CRB was using green for Systems specifically, regardless of action cost, while now the color labeling is used to more clearly specify if something has an action cost or not, and if it doesn't it gets done in red, such as the MBT's Secondary Gunner system

[brisk flax]

Yes, that's correct. The Specter is encouraged to hunt squishy targets

[fathom root]

ah, like let's say, players on foot

[brisk flax]

Thank you for the feedback! I appreciate it, and I'm glad to hear it worked out well for you

[fathom root]

[brisk flax]

Well, more just "the goblin hiding in the back" versus "the drake at the front"

but sure

Even going after someone with 1 armor isn't a huge deal if you proc Hunt

[brittle cipher]

if they got out of the mech next to the specter that's their own fault

[blissful lion]

Is the new lancer standard layout described anywhere?

[brisk flax]

double damage minus 2 is still coming out ahead of most other melee strikers save maybe an Assassin who nails an opportunistic target

[brisk flax]

yes, in the post you just quoted

[blissful lion]

I mean in a published document rather than a text channel, but I'll keep it in mind

[brisk flax]

There isn't, as far as I know, a...idk, layout repo for lancer

Mina explained to me that this was what she was using when I was in the middle of Winter Scar layouts

[neon hemlock]

Am looking forward to run the rebaked version of the Ultra template this weekend so I should be able to give you more feedback

Overall this is really a great retake on the NPC system.

[blissful lion]

I remember there was that homebrew layout guide somewhere, but good to know.

[brisk flax]

I asked because I got the MBT back and noted that several things were labaled as what I assumed were non-standard, like the MBT's passive systems getting red

mostly it was a convo in DMs and I don't want to screencap/share stuff without permission

Someone could probably check copies of Dustgrave and SSMR, which have NPC content, to see if she started using this in those ones or not

I THINK it might even have been Wallflower

lemme see

Yeah she started using it as early as Wallflower

[blissful lion]

Yeah, I'm wondering how or if I'd change the WS ||final combat, ultra cataphract. Because technically the pilot is like a ronin/breacher pilot but I'm just using the cataphract laid out in the book for now. But I still have like 2 more combats to get through before that with my own combat 4.5 in the mission||

[brisk flax]

check out the Lurker

Three traits with quick actions, all in green

the Strider has some passive systems in red, etc

so basically it's been everything forward of the CRB

[subtle nacelle]

Im interested to know if foundry adheres to this

[brisk flax]

beats me

I don't even know if comp/con does

[subtle nacelle]

yea i doubt it

[bold crystal]

it doesn't, yeah

[brisk flax]

same, that was made way back when and I don't see beef doing an overhaul

[fringe peak]

so im going to be running a module soon and im possibly going to try this out... grunts are going to take a little wrapping around

[brisk flax]

FUNDAMENTALLY it doesn't matter because Mina also does colorblind iconography

and, yknow, the words are there

[fringe peak]

so question about this as an lcp... will this double the number of npcs i have lol

[brisk flax]

I believe so yes

[fringe peak]

i didnt want to install it yet just in case

OH

[neon hemlock]

Yes it does

[fringe peak]

OH BOY

[brisk flax]

it'll be Assault and Assault [Rebake] or something

[neon hemlock]

plus 35 outright and lots of opts

[fringe peak]

im running t2 sotw so ill know you know how it goes

[subtle nacelle]

Assault [K]

[errant needle]

So second half of combat. The Rebake Witch got exactly one turn in the aforementioned Predatory Logicking a Sherman. It got no other actions before the PCs pounded it into paste, which I feel is a mission accomplished.

The second Engineer was the star of the show, keeping up six turrets most of the fight and managing to get at least three more structures before it was taken out.

Part of it was the PCs being kinda inexperienced (they missed a couple AoE chances to swat a chunk of the turret nest) and focusing objectives over the Engineer.

And the Tortuga getting unlucky and having its sole weapon structured off early, while the Sherman as the other heavy hitter was sluggish to catch up.

[brisk flax]

Witches love making everyone mad, it's like enrichment

[errant needle]

I got to shoot one of the PCs with another PC. That was worth it even if it ate shit immediately after.

The Barricade didn't get a lot of effort out, but it took a Daisy Cutter to the face and then a salvo from the Sherman.

Also, I fielded probably about twenty grunts over the course of the map from the Rebake grunts

Treated them as roughly half a structure for budget

They still kinda got wasted, though the Marksman Grunts were by far the nastiest of the set.

the DMR plus Lock On and AP let them get some serious damage out

One Striker Grunt with the sword managed to make an impression by charging headlong into the teeth of the PCs, but he got basically one attack and then died.

The Defender Grunts didn't seem to accomplish much, but that may be because even hard cover against AoE attacks doesn't do much to prevent fellow Grunts from getting AOE splattered.

I pretty much had four separate spots funneling four more grunts in every other round and they didn't make as much of an impact as the basic NPCs

I probably could've aggressively swarmed more and not made it too much pressure, I think

Though if they can't be swept quickly, that might run into activation overload

It's a balancing act.

Overall, I think the DMR Artillery Grunts were probably the most successful at being essentially budget snipers without as oppressive of presence.

Hilariously, one poor Striker Grunt kept assault rifling the Swallowtail and having the worst luck

Rolled consistently 17+ on his To Hit rolls

lost every coin flip against invisibility

including on a case where he rolled a nat 20

[fluid zodiac]

I think the only feedback I have from my players that's actionable is they dislike Hornet's Hold/Lock and how it plays with System Spike, but Hold/Lock is a vanilla system so

[finite egret]

Is rebound scan on the scout supposed to be only characters? Or is it supposed to be any target?

[vale crescent]

That rock... I declare it can't take cover...

No clue if its intentional but it's a cool interaction... that hidden enemy out of LOS, ping the rock to ping them

[young turtle]

Speaking of Rebound Scan, it should probably have a clause that makes it only recharge if it did hit an ally with it, otherwise a GM can just go "and I declare this automatically hits any ally in the zone" to get the reload for free even if that doesn't strike me as the intent

[fringe peak]

Veteran not scaling with tier will be interesting. Mainly cause it means veterans will have less traits to choose from as well with only 4 and thief class option available

[finite egret]

I think the only thing that can automatically "hit" is the actual tech attack. The rest of it is a triggered AoE but there's no attacks so nothing can hit. It's like Minotaur Logic Bomb or Manticore Summon. Once you've hit the original target (or automatically affected them if they're an ally) the rest of the invade effect just happens. You can't be Invisible against the Logic Bomb systems save

[dawn nova]

Oh this is perfect. I was just wondering if there were any expanded NPC options...

[next hedge]

I'll be running an ultra with this, this sat, I'll give my feedback once the sesh wraps

[young turtle]

OOOOH okay that makes sense, I was having trouble understanding it

I get it now

I got thrown off because I already have internalized the rules for techs attacks automatically hitting allies

lol

[vale crescent]

So can a Scout just use rebound scan on a point on the floor or an object then?

If so, edef 5 is much easier to hit than most characters... or is default edef of a rock of the floor like... 8 or 10?

[wanton maple]

Ended of an unlisted object is 8 for Smart Weapons. Not sure about tech attacks

[vale crescent]

I'm dumb

A rock is immune to tech actions so it just can't be targetted

I was thinking of it like an attack or regular system then I went "wait it's a tech action"

[young turtle]

I would assume the scout has to attack someone

I don't think this version is intended to have a special trick if you're clever where instead of hacking the goblin you attack the group under them cause its easier

[finite egret]

Default e-def is 8 according the smart tag.
Rocks are not inherrently immune to tech attacks. Some tech attacks, notably invades, specify characters but not all. Osiris notably specifies "targets" and rocks are targets

Reality deleting Osiris deletes reality

[finite egret]

I would agree that this is most likely and you're not supposed to be able to ping a size 7 building to dehide the person on the other side of it, but there's weirder shit in Lancer than that hence my checking!

[fringe peak]

Hmm Goliath losing retribution was interesting. (Not bad at all though). Same with vet changes. So I gotta take some time to see how it effects my SOTW game. I wanna try it out at least for the first couple sitreps. If it feels good, I'm gonna keep it

[hot summit]

Talking of the Goliath, Rebake says it’s got a “blanket HP buff” to make up for losing Siege Armor, but its HP seems to be the same as the core book.

[brisk flax]

Was it? Hmm, I might have been on the fence about that one and not committed yet, let me backscroll

[brittle shore]

Just wanted to hop in and say that I'm really enjoying the concepts here! Basically every aspect of this is incredibly solid stuff

really enjoying the stuff for the Ultra template, a lot of the abilities feel a lot less bullshit to throw at players, reworked juggernaut is so good

like if you're gonna let a boss say "Nuh uh" to a status condition/effect, it should cost something

[brisk flax]

yeah I've been split on the decision, because 30 HP at tier 1 is a lot, but I also know I've had to buff HP in other cases to compensate, so you're correct that I haven't, but I'm waiting to see if I should

so that's me getting ahead of myself

it remains to be seen if 30 HP at tier 1 is worthwhile or not

re: retribution, the dynamic makes sense (the goliath wants to be shot, retribution buffs someone for being shot) but I'm not interested in that particular dynamic for what's basically supposed to be a defender/controller type NPC

[languid juniper]

Charged Slash for Ronin feels very underwhelming. Recharge 6 Full Action for... impaired, plus frequently worse damage than a basic attack, at worse range(adjacent vs Threat 2 Sword). On a mech that relies on Boost to close distance.

Or Jammed, which most players would probably avoid unless their build can ignore it

[brisk flax]

Have you used it?

[languid juniper]

Not yet

[brisk flax]

Okay then I'm going to refer to this from the opening posts in the channel

Yes I am! However, I would like to state up front that what I am most interested in is playtest feedback. I am generally not very interested in feedback that starts from a position of "I read this and I have some thoughts/concerns/ideas," and if that's what your feedback is based on I'm going to warn you that I will probably not give it much consideration. Questions are fine, discussions are fine, but I would like to keep the amount of "gut feeling" feedback to a bare minimum if that.```

I am 100% open to "I used this in a game and it was [X]"

[languid juniper]

Planning to try it this weekend though

[brisk flax]

however I am not really looking for "I read this and it looks like it's bad"

[brisk flax]

So, the wording on NPC tech attacks is inconsistent in the CRB, a lot of them use "character," some use "target," and it's not really apparent that there's a reason for why one gets one and not the other (that is, stuff that gets "target" isn't doing so for clever reasons, Warp Targeting doesn't have any special trick to it if you use it on something that never cares about having attacks get hit with soft cover)

For the purposes of this document, and I will do a find/replace, take it as a given that tech attacks need to target characters

[fringe peak]

if it helps ill be using goliath veteran elites soon. So ill let you know how the difference in losing siege armour feels.

I do kinda wanna suggest adding back legendaries on vets cause it can help stop feels bad mans on miniboss enemies, but that's just imo

ill hold off till making any firm judgemtns until i try it

getting free limitless is a good enough compensation tbh so it should be fien

[brisk flax]

So a number of rebake NPCs (though not comprehensively) have had adjustments made even in the case of using the original system/stress tables

[fringe peak]

nods nods

[brisk flax]

Engineers have a second base system, Demolishers have a second base weapon, like I said it's not comprehensive but it's there

[fringe peak]

ye, i did notice that

[brisk flax]

in certain cases, I don't think it matters as much if someone loses their weapon, like a goliath that loses its gun does kinda suck but the goliath can still crush targeting people

or whatever other optionals they've got

[fringe peak]

ye, and even if ronin loses it's sword it can still rebound people

[brisk flax]

and also: if you dislike vets/elites losing shit, consider using the new tables

"I hate it when my elite guy loses their stuff on a bad roll" is exactly why I made those

[fringe peak]

oh holup was i goofy and just glazed over that

i might have been

ah it's in the master doc, that's a mb dog

hurls self into duat

oh holup i really like this table

cause it simplifies multiple ones for npcs, still provides meaningful ways for npcs to get fucked but these checks but also keeps them form being made absoluetly useless. It also gives more importance to support npcs since they can help cleanse it off this. This is great

[brisk flax]

The intent IS that you can use these elements modularly, so you can use the standard tables with the rebake NPCs, and in that context I suppose losing legendary off of veterans might be kind of a pain in some cases, but tbh I sort of think that's a symptom of "these tables suck for NPCs, actually"

[fringe peak]

nods

[brisk flax]

when you need to lean on a trait that makes rolling on the damage table suck less, I feel the issue is foundational

[fringe peak]

i also very much enjoy making the defensive net more costly for defensive measures while still keeping it's isnane utility for rpv comps

also i assume whnever we get to my son the avenger, he'll lose the abilityt o fucking execute an NPC to get revenge

[indigo oasis]

Yeah it only recently occurred to me than any basic NPC rolling on those tables only has a 1/3 chance of not being supremely fucked over

I do like System Trauma on the rebaked NPCs tho, since they now have a greater degree of defense against it

[fringe peak]

it also leans into my thing i like about lance rbalancing with npc comps being puzzles and giving npcs more pronounced and specialized strengths and weaknesses leans much more into the puzzle and building.

also the changes to sentinel are fucking awesome. I love leaning more into it's niche of the mobile defender whilst making eye of midnight both more costly and more rewarding for using smartly.

[indigo oasis]

People have their issues with System Trauma (one argument I’ve heard against it on the player side is that there’s often little in between for “only takes out ignorable equipment/Armament Redundancy” or “shuts down build completely), but imo my experience has very much felt like the ideal System Trauma circumstances, and it’s almost always felt very interesting, with NPCs still (often) being interesting and providing threat while players are forced into interesting circumstances and needing to pivot their strategy

However the one time I had a striker lose their one weapon to System Trauma made me realize there was a problem

[indigo oasis]

Oh? How was Eye of Midnight made more costly? I must’ve missed something in that case

[fringe peak]

the problem with old sentinel is you kinda just sat there. once you got into 'your spot' youw eren't really that impared by being slowed.

Howeever now with more systems that provided movmeent for great benefit. This makes eye of midnight more of an active choice

[indigo oasis]

Hm- Sentinel seems to only have 2 movement systems in the rebake- the same number as the CRD version

[vale crescent]

The movement system it has is more potent

Wrath lock that is

[indigo oasis]

Mobility Wise it’s more restrictive, but it is more potent I don’t disagree

[subtle nacelle]

I've never had any good luck with Sentinels, i must be doing something wrong..

[fluid zodiac]

I haven't either. When I saw the rebake sentinel with reliability, I decided it would be the version I use going forward.

[brisk flax]

Sentinels work good as general sort of "show up and shoot guys" bullies and they have some very potent optionals, BUT it's also true that their pitched purpose as "overwatch zone controllers" is hard to pull off at times

[indigo oasis]

Doesn’t help the Sentinel tho- giving the triggering character Lock On doesn’t help the Overwatcher much if they lost their reaction to Overwatch with. It’s either a crowd punisher or a support ability at that point

[fluid zodiac]

"NPCs with shotguns aren't real" is a joke between both my tables because my hitrate is abysmal

[subtle nacelle]

It also keeps happening that the one PC approaching the Sentinel is also the one with the bigger shotgun

[indigo oasis]

The Rebaked eye of midnight and Combat Shotgun help a lot with that tho

[brisk flax]

basically the issue with the sentinal is that mechanically it's kind of easy for the overwatch threat to not matter as much

[fringe peak]

giving setninel in build vangaurd 3, is so good

[brisk flax]

hence the adjustments to eye of midnight

[fringe peak]

like without that

[brisk flax]

like even without the reliable, that would be the key factor

[fringe peak]

i would have comitted a war crime

[subtle nacelle]

please no warcrime jokes

[fringe peak]

appologies

[brisk flax]

reliable is there in part because I "trust" sentinels with it more, and also because of the same reason archers get it: the attack being reliable means you can't go "well I'll just take the chance that this guy will miss me"

[fringe peak]

i would have gotten big angy

OMG

SHE DID IT

[fluid zodiac]

Re: Goliath rebake durability since I've actually used it a couple times.

Its probably fine? My party has largely ignored them at LL3/LL4, but they're far from getting one-shot. If some durability is needed and adding it isn't a thematic sin, it could probably be just fine with a point of armor or a slight HP bump.

[brisk flax]

I've bumped NPCs that lost some form of resistance up in HP

I actually DON'T want to give the goliath armor because I think it works best as "lots of HP, zero armor"

[fringe peak]

for doing this. I shall order you one cheese pizza form a place of your choice

[brisk flax]

so if it turns out they're dying too quick, I would just raise their HP

[fringe peak]

i cannot

articulate how much i hated that old scout would just mark people with lock on. ait would never get consumed and enemies would stay perma shredded

oop forgot to turn off @ only, mb, but this change to scout is so fucking good

[indigo oasis]

Speaking from recent experience with a Rebake Goliath that (for narrative reasons) started with 10 less HP, strikers or artillery can shave down that 25 HP really fast (my Attack Spammer Zheng and CPR Pegasus keep doing like 20 damage a turn). Being able to tank an extra hit would be nice, but also the data set I’m pulling from is fairly tainted.

[brisk flax]

yeah, as much as I appreciate the feedback, starting with 10 less HP is a massive swing

[fluid zodiac]

I figured this was the case. In my experience at the upper limit of T1, extra HP still seemed unnecessary.

Though the superheavy specialist was off in a corner dealing with a cataphract, so who's to say

I've used about half of 'em so far and the only though I have WRT durability is the operator, but I've only used it 3 times and could maybe chalk up it dying to bad luck on my part?

[brisk flax]

well I'll take it anyway if you have thoughts

[fringe peak]

Ill be running SOTW with this... if you want I can make a document with feedback sitrep to stirep to tell you how it goes?

[indigo oasis]

Oh- one thing I just realized I like about attractor field:

i’m pretty sure it was just for flavor, but since it only works on explosive or kinetic attacks, it makes damage choice from the players more meaningful than just “avoid this damage type they’re resistant”. It’s one of those fun niche things I constantly wish there was more of, ala shutting down Regenerator with energy damage

(It also makes Regenerator on a Goliath turn from a meme to an extra dimension on attack and damage choice when paired with Attractor Field)

[brisk flax]

It was taken largely from Camus' Razor, which is similarly kinetic/explosive only, but the damage type being an impactful choice is part of that

[subtle nacelle]

@indigo oasis Minor fixes including Ultra's Nova Missiles damage type.
https://github.com/Shteb/Kais-NPC-Rebake-LCP/releases/tag/1.15.2

[fluid zodiac]

Used in:

• Control, T2 (LL4), no templates. Fade Generator + Deniable Asset
• Holdout, T1 (LL3), no templates. Overload Shot. [Playing around a Sunzi]
• Escort, T1 (LL2), commander (Quick March). No optionals.

Maybe it was me having bad luck with the difficulty in strike and fade or map design, but it felt like it was a little too frail for the range. It could get in range, get a shot off, then die, or it could position itself to try and get a shot off and slip away, then die anyways. The commander proved the most effective because the LoS abilities allowed it to keep distance and provide value to the team, then hit and back off when players tried to approach it to get rid of it.

Unsolicited design suggestion: I don't think giving it more HP (like +2/tier) is the best solution since it's squishy by design, and giving it more speed could lead to it kiting the PCs like vanilla. I'd personally give it a touch more evasion at the expense of e-defense so it could be gummed up by a controller PC (or fragsig'd) and followed up on.

[subtle nacelle]

There's a new release probably dropping tomorrow fixing Ultra's Shock and Awe feature not adding additional activations

[carmine idol]

Dammit I'd have fixed that before releasing if I knew xD

[subtle nacelle]

I saw the issue immediately after we released

[carmine idol]

I'll do now and put a hotfix out, I'm playing MH Wilds from 5AM tomorrow
🔨👁️👄👁️

[brisk flax]

Hmm, 12/14/16 HP is still fairly frail, and it would be the simpler thing to try

I think my concern with adjusting the defense values is that Strike and Fade is already capable of adding essentially +3.5 average to both evasion and e-def

[fluid zodiac]

Ngl, putting the T2 against players who are still T1 felt the best HP-wise, but I wasn't sure how you'd prioritize the stats

[brisk flax]

If you do more Operator testing, try it with +2 HP/tier and see what that feels like

[carmine idol]

woopsies didn't fix anything my bad 🫠

[subtle nacelle]

hey @carmine idol i think you undid my changes

[carmine idol]

no...

How did I even manage that 🫠

[subtle nacelle]

Delete this release, we'll get it right the next time dont worry

[carmine idol]

I reverted main, fixing it :'^]

[hollow steppe]

Yall keep updating the lcp as soon as I get around to downloading the previous version. I will never be up to date

[subtle nacelle]

latest is 1.15.2

[hollow steppe]

I love the constant updates. I will simply always be late to the party

[carmine idol]

Nw, I'm just terribly overexcited to push changes out for use, resulting in some oopsies that needs more eyes to see 😅

[subtle nacelle]

yea stop merging without reviews XD

[carmine idol]

My impatience is my sin, I plead guilty 🥹🙏

[fringe peak]

rock

[hollow steppe]

Launch the updates NOW!

[carmine idol]

so be it

I merged this one before being told off so it doesn't count, I've already repented

[subtle nacelle]

I forgive you

[opal folio]

i just ran 2 rebake sentinels in a holdout, and i can confirm those guys kick faces now. i always found the vanilla one slightly underwhelming tbh

just the extra range and trigger on EoM makes such a huge difference

[carmine idol]

I imagine our GM would have loved to give some similar feedback but the Elite Sentinel deployed, then immediately got Shock Claws'd and Heavy Laser Rifle'd

[opal folio]

that's my experience this round with the seeder rebakes lol

two of them deploying close-ish to the PCs and immediately getting shut down by the death's head before placing a single mine

[carmine idol]

Traumatised players have some pretty heavy reactions to a few select NPC's deploying lol

[pulsar hound]

I mean, it got a single attack off with the new Eye of Midnight - which is a lot more than the core Sentinel would've.

[hollow steppe]

Looking forward to Rainmaker deployment for that reason

Trauma

[carmine idol]

The above fella deployed a Flying Veteran Acrobat Support with clown car carrying a Veteran Rainmaker - indeed trauma is correct
👁️👄👁️

[pulsar hound]

I need to write up my thoughts on that combat tbh

[indigo oasis]

Reading the design doc notes- mines are visible when placed? Even player mines? This is news

[brisk flax]

I mean, is the GM supposed to pretend not to see them? How would that even work

[split nebula]

after seeing the Operator Rebake, I'm very much reminded of (warning: Operation solstice rain spoilers below)

||the final boss for that module. He just kept teleporting around the map and the invisibility was extremely difficult to deal with. since we had few sources of reliable damage and the invis reset after each of the ultra operator's turns. I was testing out the Uncompahgre from my Field Guide to Jovo supplement there, where it could counter the invis when an ally consumes lock on, but it was also size 2 and i had a hard time getting positioned lmao||

Removing the Invis from the Operator and reducing its range is just so nice from a player perspective, it's already a "get back here" of an enemy and can be really annoying to fight if it has the elite or ultra action economy.

[indigo oasis]

I hadn't thought of that. I was banking on just forgetting about them :|

[surreal zenith]

imrpov a coordinates system and write the location on a note card and pass it around to the PCs but not the GM or something

[brisk flax]

this isn't really bagging on you or anything, but it's very much one of those "okay but how would this work" things, it's like lancer has no fog of war to begin with, mines not being a known quantity feels extremely unworkable

having played games with hidden board info before, your game needs to really have a robust framework in place for that, and usually it ends up being the focal point of said game

[brisk flax]

Going over some stuff:
1). @trail pivot I know you don't like to be pinged but I wanted to ask if you would like the GMS Crisis Catalog to be mentioned in this. I know it has alternate structure and stress rules that apply both to PCs and NPCs, as well as some NPC packs. If so, is there any element in particular you'd like me to mention in the summary thereof?
2). @finite smelt Any chance that your Arms Race project is going to be posted somewhere linkable outside of discord? And if so, the same questions apply to you

[finite smelt]

it would need some major rework before it's a playable state, but it's also not a priority work for me at the moment. When/if it gets done, it'll probably be put on my itch.io. Until then, I don't mind if the Google doc gets shared in other places, with some mention that it's very much not ready to be played with entirely as written.
The main thing I'd like mentioned is enemy factions progressively getting stronger over time.

but also, i haven't been following this channel too closely (there's been a lot of activity going on, which, congratulations! just too much for me atm haha)
where would this be mentioned?

[brisk flax]

I don't see this getting released for a while so it's not a huge rush in terms of like "you gotta push this out the door"

[brisk flax]

In the supplement itself

There's a section in the intro where I want to link to other third party NPC/GM related projects

[finite smelt]

oh i see 👀
very cool

[brisk flax]

The only thing is I want to be able to give people an actual link and not "go ping this person on discord," if that makes sense

[finite smelt]

right right

[brisk flax]

I know that I'll be linking Valk's Prototype Pattern Groups, I'm probably going to link https://owacsender.substack.com/p/the-gms-guide-to-building-lancer unless OWACS objects

basically what I'm looking for is:
1). The project is NPC and GM related in some capacity. Doesn't necessarily have to be entirely focused on it, but it should be more than "here's a bunch of player stuff, and two NPCs"
2). It's in a state that's more than "I've written two pages," but it doesn't have to be "1.0 release finished"
3). It has a link I can include

[trail pivot]

oh yeah that's totally fine! I guess just mentioning that it has those elements and has an associated mission adventure Gm's can use for it, as well

[brisk flax]

How would you prefer to be credited? EsbionArshadow?

[trail pivot]

Maria Lopez, with the EsbionArshadow is fine, it's already on the Crisis catalog

[brisk flax]

Will do

[trail pivot]

o7

[wheat mortar]

with regard to the sentinal rebake, once the players saw the reliable and knew from scanning that it had punisher/impaler they choose to spend 4-6 rounds just standing there shooting it and taking lock-on + skirmish while the rest of the op-for fought the other have of the players

100% how the defender role should be, force players to shoot a suboptimal target due to the situational effects of the defender npc, in this case reliable damage per turn overwatch + status effects

with rebake assassin and hive it was a really potent trio, i liked having the razor swarm follow the hive as it tried to apply burn to as many PCs as possible while using command override to mess with player drones and move restock drones closer to NPCs that need it

[subtle nacelle]

https://github.com/Shteb/Kais-NPC-Rebake-LCP/releases/tag/1.15.3
:))) anotha' one

[supple leaf]

Woo

[subtle nacelle]

we're done for the time being. I think now we pivot a bit to the deployables LCP and as always await bug reports and kai changelogs

[fathom root]

hmmmm, drag cables doesn't list the action in comp/con

also, since you auto fail hull saves when stunned anyway, is the clarification necessary?

[neon hemlock]

@brisk flax returning for feedback on the Ultra & Veteran Rebake template plus the Grunt NPCs.

Encounter Details
Lancers
4 x PCs / LL6

• 1 x Pegasus
• 1 x Hydra
• 1 x Swallowtail
• 1 x Everest

OpFor (Start of Round 1)

• 1 x Hive Ultra [K]
• 1 x Assault Veteran [K]
• 1 x Rainmaker Veteran [K]
• 4 x Grunt [K[ Defender-Type

Reinforcements

• 4 x Grunt [K] Striker-Type
• 4 x Grunt [K] Support-Type

Grunt [K] Defender-Type

• Is an absolute stunner specially due to how they have Overshield as, this specifically took the Pegasus player by surprise since they didn't automatically die on the first instance of Ushabti being triggered.
• This prompted an immediate reaction from the Pegasus player to immediately scan the NPC. Which in my book is an absolute win since rarely does this specific player use Scan.
• This also prompted the Swallowtail player to immediate take activation so that they can drop Athena down fast.

Assault Veteran [K] + Commando Trait

• The new Commando trait made stellar impact and impression on the table since it perfectly parallels Lockbreaker.
• It also allowed the NPC to get into close range to be able to chain its Barrage.

Rainmaker Veteran [K] + Seeker Volley Trait + Concussion Warheads Trait & Huntsman (Rebake Trait)
Huntsman Trait (Rebake)

• The Huntsman Trait now requiring consumption of Lock-On to allow Missile Pods to have AP is a good shout, the table commented on it that it made the NPC more fair since, the Core version of this Trait can just opt not to consume the Lock-On and have 3 immediate positive benefits from it.

Seeker Volley Trait + Concussion Warheads Trait

• Seeker Volley, being able to apply Lock-On is genius and ties well into a combination of Limitless, Overcharge Skirmish for the Missile Pods to consume the Lock-On and trigger Concussion Warheads on 1 target (re 1/round)
• This prompted the players to immediately beeline the Rainmaker since the moment they got a peek on its Traits they connected the dots on the combination of traits.
• Overall the players thought highly of the new rework on the Rainmaker, due to how its entire kit made fights more interesting and fair.

Question

• Skyhammer Salvo, allows the Blast 1 Area be placed on an occupied space? or a free space (unoccupied by characters)?

Hive Ultra [K] + Juggernaut (Rebake Trait) + Command Override Tech + Suppresion Pulse System + Puppet Crasher System
Juggernaut Trait

• Is probably the biggest one that was highlighted during the session. It made the Ultra more manageable compared to the original version of the template. The quote was from one of the players
  Now that feels more fair since it now looks like the NPC took the equivalent of the Brace reaction and now they too have to deal with some for of penalty in exchange of removing a condition.

Command Override Tech + Driving Swarm

• Was pretty nasty against the Hydra player that was playing Bonded with the Swallowtail player since it made them primary targets due to how reliant they where on their drones. Paired with Driving Swarm which forced the Swallowtail into the open away from its safety net hiding spot.

Suppression Pulse

• Is also a good new system, it being a Blast 2 and a Jammed is quite a sudden flow breaker for tech reliant mechs.
• It being Recharge 6+ is very good, if it was any lower it would just be pure outright unfair. Though Superior by Design does bypass the Impaired condition for it.

Puppet Crasher

• Is also one of the new system that the players pointed out was a good surprise it had the table sweating balls when the Swallowtail was consecutively dragged out of cover and into the enemy formation when they got hit with it.

Question

• Suppression Pulse doesn't require LOS, yes?

TL:DR

• Table really had fun with the new Rebake NPCs and are asking if this can now be used as our standard for the campaign moving forward.

[solid pilot]

Just checking, the Flush Out archer optional doesn't need LoS right?

[smoky bluff]

I'm assuming it does, I think it's for those who are using hard cover most of the time, but I can see there being a reason that is the case

[wicked wolf]

if/when there are more guidelines could one of you toss them my way? I'd like to get this worked in to v3

[brisk flax]

all targeted effects require LoS unless stated otherwise

[brisk flax]

ask the cable winch, whose text I took that from

[brisk flax]

And a bunch of feedback, let's crack into this

1). to answer your question Skyhammer Salvo CAN be placed overlapping characters. This is intentional. It means that if it places it overlapping hostiles, those characters will automatically get lock on. I feel this is fair action econ since it's spending a quick action for the delayed gratification of 1+ Lock Ons that the rainmaker can't use right away. It means you can put it on characters and encourage them to move or get hit with rockets

2). Superior by Design will ignore a lot of the various "Impaired" consolation prizes but them's the breaks, they did spend a core bonus for it

3). Technically Suppression Pulse would need LoS, as the point mentioned earlier still stands, things only bypass LoS requirements if they say so. The Kidd's Jolly Roger, which things like Suppression Pulse and Orbital Eye are based off of, DOES specify that they don't need LoS, but for the ultra I didn't do that because my concerns are that long-Sensors mechs with an LoS-ignoring area jam might feel substantially worse with the PC-to-NPC dynamic reversed

It's like something like a GMS RPG, which is a blast weapon but doesn't have arcing/seeking, and thus you still need LoS

I really appreciate the extensive breakdown of things, and I'm glad to hear your table enjoyed it

[brisk flax]

also I checked the document and the bit about stunned doesn't seem to be there, this may be a holdover from an earlier version that I didn't flag for rewording

[brisk flax]

I think it's basically just what I outlined, but if you have specific questions I would ask Mina

Mainly the biggest change is that instead of "Systems are green, Traits are red" it's "anything that is purely passive is red, things that have Quick Action or Full Action costs are green"

all the rest (tech actions, protcols, reactions, weapons) remain unchanged

[wicked wolf]

got it

[teal steeple]

Hi, quick clarification question:
Demolisher's Drag Cables, specifically the re-activation to force an embedded character to pass a Hull Save or be pulled adjacent, does this cost another Quick Action?
and associated with that, does this pull change the "neither the target nor the Demolisher can move more than 5 spaces away from one another"? I assume no, but was curious if I was maybe misreading it.

[brisk flax]

1). Yes, activating Drag Cables is a quick action, so activating it again will require a quick action to do so. It also can't be activated twice in the same round unless you have multiple activations or overcharge due to duplicate action restrictions
2). Being dragged adjacent doesn't clear the cables, no. That restriction is still in place. Either party could move away from the other BUT only out to range 5, until the cables break or are ended

Basically once drag cables are embedded, the other party isn't immoblized, they simply can't move beyond range 5. They can move laterally, they can move closer, they can move back and forth within that range 5 radius

[teal steeple]

That makes sense, thanks!

[brisk flax]

and then the demolisher can yank them close with a quick action if they want

[old ridge]

the LCP has bastion saves at their corebook values 8/10/12, the rebake PDF bumps them up to 10/12/14 as they richly deserve

[vale crescent]

So quick question about skyhammer salvo... javelin missiles before could strike someone who flew above the Javelins up to 10 tiles away allowing some method of anti air

Skyhammer salvo lacks this, is this intentional? And if it isn't intentional is it too niche a part of the ability where it isn't worth including anymore?

I was somewhat surprised running a rainmaker yesterday and my flying player just said "but I can just fly over it right?"

It's not that much of a problem I'm just curious

[rose hamlet]

looks like a bug report for @carmine idol ?

[rose hamlet]

This too for @carmine idol

[rose hamlet]

actually nvm I'll fix em real quick

[tall turret]

Noticed a typo with Veteran commando

[simple juniper]

Quick Q, about the Aegis rebake

Is it intentional that the new Remote Projector Trait produces a smaller Defense Net than the one made normally by the Aegis (As a by-product of it causing Burst 1 on a Size 2 mech)?

[tall turret]

Both Defense Net and Remote Projector make Burst 2 areas

[simple juniper]

Sure
But
Burst 2 out of a single Size 1 space is smaller than Burst 2 out of a Size 2 mech.

It's even on the core book as an example:

[tall turret]

Ah ok

Well it does make sense considering it's having to expend more energy to place it further away rather than just around itself

[simple juniper]

Yeah, just double-checking, 'cause I'm damn sure it's gonna come up in my tables and run with some of these optionals.

[finite egret]

In the PDF:

The Aegis spreads a powerful, shimmering repulsion shield over a Burst 2 area.

[rose hamlet]

made a PR for it

[finite egret]

If the LCP is different might be a bug?

[rose hamlet]

it's Burst 2 in pdf and LCP

[finite egret]

Oh this is remote projector

Not the defence net

[rose hamlet]

they're both burst 2 for that too

[finite egret]

Actually no... remote projector is also Burst 2 😆

[rose hamlet]

looking at the latest PDF in the pins yeah

[finite egret]

Yeah that's the one I'm using

[rose hamlet]

cool cool, mentioning that for AnatoleSerial

[finite egret]

Presumably the cost of doing it at range 5?

[simple juniper]

That's what I presume as well. Again, just double-checking.

[rose hamlet]

hm okay looks like Assault Armor needs added to the latest Striker Grunt, and the basic Grunt features need updated

[pulsar hound]

Assault Armor is already factored into its base stats, but yeah thinking about it that might get confusing

[rose hamlet]

ah I see

yeah I getcha, that makes sense, and it saves on space

(honestly I think it should be rolled into Striker-Type trait, period)

I'm combing through the grunt stuff anyway, saw some inconsistencies, but lemme know if I should add Assault Armor properly

[subtle nacelle]

we love this crowdsourced QA btw, the more bug reports the better. It's 100+ pages of statblocks we definitely weren't perfect

[hollow steppe]

What do you mean you arent a legion mind NHP able to do everything all at once

[pulsar hound]

I wish. Then I wouldn't forget Commander reactions.

[rose hamlet]

oh, same deal for Controller-Type and Defender-Type with their bumped stat traits

lemme know

[subtle nacelle]

feel free to write up github issues, and then also feel free to post a PR if you want

[rose hamlet]

I'm doing the PR as we speak

[finite egret]

Commander has reactions? I thought it just gave +1 Structure and Stress 😛

[rose hamlet]

PR for Grunts: https://github.com/Shteb/Kais-NPC-Rebake-LCP/pull/65

made like, 4 other PRs too

[subtle nacelle]

ty valk!

[rose hamlet]

feel free to hit me with feedback/requests to change, happy to acquiesce to fit the repo

[brisk flax]

Re: Remote Projector, yes the Burst 2 it generates around a point will be smaller than one generated around a Size 2 mech, that's the cost of doing business

[indigo oasis]

Question about the Seeder design process:

grav Grenade Launcher was changed from knockback to just moving targets. However, since it’s a blast weapon, wouldn’t the seeder, with the right positioning, move at least once character in any given direction? Is the intent to be able to move multiple characters in a single direction?

[brisk flax]

In general, with multiple instances of movement, my understanding is that unless something specifically states otherwise, the character doing the moving can choose independently which direction each thing goes in

i.e. with Mobile Turrets on the Engineer, you don't have to say "everyone only moves in one direction"

so if you grav-grenade 3 people, those people move in whatever direction the Seeder chooses to assign them independently of one another

Cynosure, by contrast, says "everyone affected by this has to move the same direction"

[indigo oasis]

Oh this isn’t a rules question, more a “why this change?” question. I’m just curious about the change from Knockback to a pretty much omnidirectional movement

I’m reading the design doc notes and that point stuck with me

[brisk flax]

because one is more useful for "the mine laying guy" than the other

[indigo oasis]

Since if a seeder wanted to knock someone into a mine between its target and itself, CRB seeder would center its blast behind the target for example

[brisk flax]

"move in a chosen direction" is how grav spikes work, that's not an accident for the guy who sticks things on the ground that it wants enemies to step onto

[indigo oasis]

Not disagreeing with the design, I just found blast positioning for knockback to be a neat mini-puzzle to perform as a GM with a CRB seeder, and I was slightly perplexed by the change

But I can’t disagree with “it’s just more useful”, because it literally is. I’m curious to test it out when I can, see if it’s a warranted buff

[brisk flax]

I mean it's not just easier for its own mines, it's more effective as a utility weapon in general and differentiates it from other knockback AoE stuff

[indigo oasis]

Mm, gotcha gotcha

Helps stop the seeder from just being “the mine guy”. Even the more 1-note NPCs in both CRB and the Rebakes have another gimmick on the side going on, eg Witch now having Danger Zone gimmicks in addition to being “the hacker”

[brisk flax]

I highly doubt that turning Knockback 1 into Pull Anywhere 1 on a low range low damage weapon is going to significantly budge the needle in terms of adjusting the weapon's power level

[fluid zodiac]

The LCP for just one NPC had me staring at my computer and wanting to convert to a primitivist agrarian lifestyle. I can't imagine doing the QA for thirty

[subtle nacelle]

my one complaint is needing to use json over yaml

[brisk flax]

I honestly think the biggest issue is making it in the first place

as someone who had help getting the suldan lcp off the ground, maintaining it wasn't, like, fun

but having to MAKE it probably would have been insufferable

I don't say this to downplay the work being done here btw

because they made the lcp too so, like

[fluid zodiac]

I didn't mind it until I needed to format something a specific way but couldn't get the syntax right

[trail pivot]

yeah lcp work is like 1/2 or even 2/3rd of what i do for my stuff, timewise.

[fluid zodiac]

Or I thought I had the syntax right and then compcon would be like "idk there's an error in there somewhere"

Hunting down a missed apostrophe for thirty minutes

[young turtle]

To go back on the seeder in the CRB, I personally think that the knockback was already kinda a "pull in any direction" because you'd often angle the AOE to make it do that

It didn't really change much

[rose hamlet]

changing the knockback to omnidirectional just means that it's less mindbending for a GM to use vs multitargets

[trail pivot]

less fiddly yeah

[indigo oasis]

Ya know, I just realized. Because of Deadly and the rebake Juggernaut making Impair far more common on Ultras, adding base accuracy on Ultra weapons is a more significant design choice than normal.

[rose hamlet]

@subtle nacelle I am boo boo the fool, and put the issue templates in the wrong place: https://github.com/Shteb/Kais-NPC-Rebake-LCP/pull/66

If you'd like, I can drop the Bug Report template?

[subtle nacelle]

im.. debating it. Cuz it's an option after all, you know? people will use the other 3 anyways

[rose hamlet]

how about this: I'll drop it for now, and if someone shows up and makes a legit Bug Report with one of the other templates, y'all can consider adding it back in

... unless, of course, you merge the PR before I can do so lol

[subtle nacelle]

aaagh

i gotta stop moving so fast some times

[rose hamlet]

I'll let you handle it now hahaha

[subtle nacelle]

ty tho

[fleet kayak]

Hey this looks based af

[brittle cipher]

Sniper (and especially Moving Target) feels a lot better now that its not hyperaccurate w/ offturn reloads.

Moving Target's "lose your move + prone or get marked" also had my players sweating on the movement side of things - multiple moments where wanting to avoid the mark caused them to not be able to position as they wanted.

[fringe peak]

im half way through a sitrep rn and the new assasin feels really nice so far. The loss of siege armour on goliath hurts a little tbh

Spolering this cause im running combat 1 of SOTW rn

||Current opfor feels really good. The parties made up of a gilgamesh, gorgon, black witch, hecha and monarch.

All in all, all the traits just feel more easy to interact with. On both Gm and player side. The goliath and assasin is able to use stuff like mag gauntlet to pull enemies in then follow up with quick one two punches. making thema potent and fun combo||

[brittle cipher]

accurate depiction of me watching my players agonizing over moving target, drag down, and a scout orbital bombardment

[manic sky]

I've got a fight tomorrow... I look forward to reporting on it

[ancient forge]

Gonna run the idea of using these in a fight or two of my ongoing campaign to my players, since these seem to be going over fairly well

[brisk flax]

As always, let me know how it goes, good or bad

[fringe peak]

something that did feel a little wierd as golaith is it really seems to want to draw people clsoe and lock them down. So it makes power knuckle a little akward at times.?

It did lead to a really fun one two combo of mag gauntlet into power knuckle

[ancient forge]

Will do; I know ultra data is especially desired but are there any other things that have stood out as needing more attention?

[brittle cipher]

power knuckle lets you yeet people off CZs/into unpleasant places

[brisk flax]

Power Knuckle is also part of the core Goliath kit and I look at it, essentially, as an optional you take for different sorts of situations and circumstances

like both Pin and Power Knuckle are CRB Goliath components, one is about locking people down close, one is about displacement, you take one over the other depending on your comp, your map, what you're angling to do

I think that it's fine for NPCs to have some variety in terms of what they do so long as it's nominally more focused than "the scourer suddenly has a Cone 5 Jam ability out of fucking nowhere"

[fringe peak]

it did feel really good with setting up fun repostion combos

mag gauntlet feels like the stand out honestly

[languid juniper]

Yeah, Flash Lens feels very out of left field

[brisk flax]

like, the Cataphract rebake is (imo) less disparate than the CRB version in terms of optionals (again, no arbitrary AoE Jammed) but it still has stuff that moves in different directions...you have immobilized, you have pulls, you have anti-flying stuff, you have an anti-melee defensive ability, etc

[fringe peak]

being able to pull people in and osilate them fits very well. Shroud projecotr and eplosive knives both felt alot better.

Mutliplicity also just felt more balanced since it let our monarch still shine

[brisk flax]

and you pick what you want to go towards

[fringe peak]

btw, loss of siege armour!

it didn't feel too bad. I spent 2 rounds of getting shot by an ssasin drone and an annilation nexus and I still didn't get structured. I don't think it needs more health but I also don't have too huge mount of super striker

[brisk flax]

yeah my concern with the goliath's survivability metrics is I feel like it's in a spot where if I do the thing I've done for other NPCs (add HP) that it will end up passing over a critical annoyance threshold

25 HP at Tier 1 is already A Lot, going to 30 HP would be "this is two Assaults' worth of HP on one NPC"

PCs can build to absurd damagemaxxing values, but I'm not sure I want the goliath to tacitly encourage that by its existence

40 HP per structure by Tier 3

feels like a lot!

make it an ultra and take the right optional and that's 50 HP/structure

not really a fan

[fringe peak]

im running at tier 2 rn, so it's like... something to consider and im playing very conservatively on them. I think the change on pin and other things helps a ton since it forces npcs to engage with them instead of ignor them.

30 feels fine atm? honestly this might be a strange thing but giving assault armour ala avenger wouldn't be the worst idea? Goliatn wants to draw people into close range where it can hold them down and operate. usng its size to clog points. Probably not needed but is a thought

[brisk flax]

I think, if at all possible, I'd like the goliath to not have a base resistance trait for a variety of reasons, among which is that it already has three traits in its kit which imo is pushing the limit of non-setpiece NPC design

[fringe peak]

nods this is fair

[brisk flax]

if I were to give the Goliath any form of resistance, and that's an "if," I would probably look to tie it into crush targeting in some capacity

[fringe peak]

goliath feels more squishy but more... mpactful ig? Like i feel like my goliath is like...doing things

it feels more like a controller than before

[brisk flax]

I'M BORED

this is not going into the main document, this does not need to be added to the lcp

[brittle cipher]

vanguard armor is wicked cool

for cycle of violence, do they boost towards the ally or the hostile? not sure who counts as the triggering character there.

wait nevermind my brain reactivated, its the hostile

[brisk flax]

correct

[brittle cipher]

Big fan of this, now to find a place in osr/ows to cram in an avenger so I can use it.

[brisk flax]

My recommendation would be a mission like Walk in the Park from Winter Scar, and it might work in Leviathan in Solstice Rain

[brittle cipher]

I'll look into walk in the park, unfortunately we're 3 rounds into leviathan right now so that ship has sailed (if you'll pardon the pun)

[ancient forge]

Hmmm. I could use this for [The Weapon]…

[errant needle]

[THE WEAPON] is probably my favorite writeup in all of Lancer just for the fact every system is a villain monologue. lol

Also, Determination just being built for a Terminator jumpscare. lol

[opal folio]

are there any particular things i would want to keep in mind if running rebake templates with the alt structure rules or would removing Legendary still generally cover it?

as far as i can tell it hsould be fine?

[brisk flax]

In what regard?

[opal folio]

are there any weird features in the rebake that interact with loss of structure/stress? I didn't see any in my read through but i figured it was worth checking before i introduce these things into my campaign

[brisk flax]

There's a couple of Ultra optionals that give charges when it loses stress/structure

the biggest change, mainly, is that the alt-structure/stress rules are simplified and there's no System Trauma

Nothing in the CRB really interacts with losing stress/structure beyond "roll on the table"

Beyond that, the change that may come up is that it's somewhat harder for NPCs using it to die outright

The 1 result on the NPC table doesn't have any way to result in destruction, for example, it's either stunned EoNT or permanently Impaired/Slowed

so Veterans and Elites, NPCs of that nature, will be mathematically less prone to random death

Same for the overheating table, a 1 result can't put an NPC into meltdown, just Exposed

If there's a potential stumbling point it may be that Elite Veteran Commander, the other way to make an NPC with 4 structure/stress, becomes harder to kill in a way that's less enjoyable because the table has no "escalating series of consequences based on remaining structure/stress" component

so you're either looking at zeroing out their stress/structure or relying on them rolling multiple 1's

the flipside is that the Elite Veteran Commander has no Juggernaut-esque elements, no ability to self-clear conditions etc, they just have to take it on the chin

also as I've been going over stuff for another changelog (no ETA, just putting stuff down as I go) I am going to be making an adjustment to the structure damage table, to wit:
The NPC chooses; either they become Stunned until the end of their next turn, or they become Impaired and Slowed for the rest of the scene. If they choose the second option, it can't be chosen again for the rest of the scene.

[indigo oasis]

Shame about the LCP v_v

Anyway I’m surprised about the non-removal of the +5 damage from Revenge, instead reworking it to a +4 at tier 1 and a +6 at tier 3, as It’s the loudest complaint I’ve heard about the Avenger. Not saying it’s a bad thing I’m just surprised.

Vanguard Armor looks more fun than Assault Armor tho, particularly on a non-melee unit

[rose hamlet]

This looks like a fair change. Assassin level damage in CQB range, and accuracy to attacks/checks/saves from revenge is potent but not overwhelming

[indigo oasis]

Actually I just noticed- is Vanguard Armor’s Revenge Damage meant to require being within range 3 of allies to trigger as well?

[indigo oasis]

Wait why Assassin Level damage in CQB range?

[rose hamlet]

Because it’s got the same damage on slug pistol as heated blade

But the pistol is ranged

[indigo oasis]

If the Avenger is required to be within range 3 of allies to trigger the double Slug Pistol damage it is quite capable of hanging around with, say, a Scourer from range 8 away and firing double damage shots

[rose hamlet]

Ah. Missed it was range 8. Point otherwise stands

[indigo oasis]

Also that’s if that’s the intent. It seems like it is, but with how I read it initially it sounds like the double damage just… happens, regardless of positioning near allies.

[rose hamlet]

If the latter is the intent (just happening) then it may be best to lump the damage bump with the Revenge trait itself

[indigo oasis]

Good point, it probably is based on the positioning then

[rose hamlet]

I don’t know the intent I’m just commenting on clarity

[indigo oasis]

Sad about the loss of the name Mimic Mesh, but I can’t disagree that Cycle of Violence is a fundamentally different reaction even in the Wallflower Avenger. the name “Mimic Mesh” kept throwing me for a loop with the effects

Oh wait I just realized- the bonus damage from Revenge is no longer universal, so things like Ram and Grapple no longer deal +5 damage. Yeah that’s probably a change for the better

[rose hamlet]

If it’s meant to be Range 3 oriented on Vanguard armor I’d probably reword the trait like a bulleted list with an “if” statement (also it lists “the assault” instead of “the avenger” in the trait, whoops):

While the Avenger is within Range 3 of an allied non-Grunt, non-Drone character:
- If Revenge hasn’t triggered, it gains Resistance to all damage. 
- If Revenge has triggered, its Slug Pistol deals double damage (bonus damage is not doubled).

[rose hamlet]

Yeah this is important for Ram + Skirmish maneuvers

[indigo oasis]

I’d probably phrase the second sentence to “After Revenge has activated, the Avenger’s Slug Pistol deals double damage (bonus damage excluded) instead of gaining Resistance.”

Adding in an “instead” in there. It is briefer, but tbh it’s not much better than the original version- I can see people like myself still getting confused on the wording

The bullet points are probably clearer

[indigo oasis]

I liked it conceptually, but yeah it was some hot bullshit, and is a fair enough change.

[brisk flax]

No or it would say so

The damage bump is what it is because it's conditional and not something you can access inmediately

In average actual playtime at the table, avengers rarely get to make as many empowered attacks as assassins can make double damage heated blade attacks, or even just assaults can shoot their gun

[indigo oasis]

Ah ok. Idk if you plan on doing more with this, but I would maybe do what Valk mentioned and put the double damage under revenge, and have Vanguard Armor simply say it’s disabled when Vengeance triggers- keeps things clearer imo, and allows GMs to just ignore that entire block of text when Vengeance is active rather than skimming it to see if they missed something. If you’re gonna update it that is

Small note too: iirc, you mentioned in the Demolisher design doc one minor goal of the rebakes is to partially give some System Trauma cushions to a few of the classes in greater need of it. In light of that, the Avenger lacks any systems in the base kit, and with the damage bonus changes becomes sorta neutered if it loses Slug Pistol, a guarantee if the base kit experiences any system trauma at all- think it would be a decent idea to make either Erupting Shrapnel and/or Vanguard Armor systems?

[fringe peak]

As john avenger ( i have used an aveger in nearly every sitrep i ever run) i lov ethis. It takes care of some of the big problems of avenger where it wants to get up close to deal damage and do stuff with assault armour but often needs to hang back for revenge procs.

I really like the new version of vangaurd armour for this as it makes the revenge trait feel less swinggy, especially when it comes to the jidgment shotgun. But also allows the avenger to stay alive and use it's revenge trait. My favourite one yet

[vale tide]

Damn I wish I was GMing lancer just so I could use Rebaked NPCs, they look so fun and I love the direction you took them in Kai

[neon blaze]

immediate comment: yeah thank god the extra damage now only applies to the pistol

that shit just straight killed my players

the optionals at a glance are also just a lot more interesting and healthy overall

[indigo oasis]

run a one-mission campaign, doooo itttt

[fringe peak]

https://tenor.com/view/disintegrate-gif-22469816

POV your avenger has jusdgment shotgun, deadly and has spotted a tier 1 PC

i also like assault armour was changed to this cause imma be real with you... if you made it an ultra and gave it siege armour it was the most unfun creature in known existence

[fringe peak]

I wonder what you'd do with stirder cause strider imo is like...the balanced frame there is. It's all about doing multiple range bands and swappin in and out of them

[indigo oasis]

Well 1st of all, no guarantees Kai is gonna cover any other expansion NPCs. The scope of this project sits firmly on the CRB NPCs- I think the Avenger is an outlier. Others might pop up but don’t hold your breath

Second, Strider may be designed to be balanced, but it really doesn’t pan out that way. It’s not working at a far enough range band to be safe being a squishy artillery, and it’s still too squishy to do its striking well. That, and the swap kit gimmick, while fun, is treated as a big part of its power budget. It’s versatility ends up making it a lot less potent than other NPCs who may choose to specialize- not a bad thing, but it would be good if that gap were a bit smaller

The first thing a rebake could probably do is buff its defensive stats. Not by much, maybe +2 or +4 HP at every tier and that may be it. But I’m no expert, that’s just my surface analysis.

[fringe peak]

ye i know, just curious

striders has always been to me kinda what assault was trying to be? A good felxible strikers unit ablle to fill a myriad of different roles. For example i often ended up using striders with siege mode and swapping betwene it and marksman to act as this mid line controling unit.

[bold crystal]

in play I have mostly found the strider extremely annoying, because it doesn't actually mind swapping its kit every turn so if it's not outright immobilized it just puts itself in whatever range band is good for it. (and its optionals that aren't more kits are just... ways for it to get into a good range band again.)

[fringe peak]

thats fair, i can defeintly see that. If i were to change anything I'd rpobably get rid of reposition so it's harder for it to swapper ranges

[brisk flax]

The Strider is a bit of a weird one because "multi-role NPC" sort of flies in the face of what a tactics game NPC should really be about imo, which is comprising a specific element of a tactical puzzleboard

"this NPC can kind of do a lot of things okay" is not, in my personal opinion, a great place for an NPC to be

I am inclined to say, as with most of my stuff, that the primary element of "how do I remake the strider" should be "pick a focus for it and build off that" and for the Strider I think it would make sense to frame it as "primarily an artillery unit" and then swap kits are a supplement to that

The other problem I have with it is that I think kits bring a lot of overhead to the table, and I'd honestly consider making kits more of a "pick one of these and that is your one alternate kit" thing baseline, and then optionals are not additional kits but ancillary traits, systems, etc

[indigo oasis]

Tbh that's a little how most GMs run striders as is- pick a kit, pick a second kit, delete what they aren't using, and then pick optionals.

Still it would be good to codify it, and it would be better to let it free up more room in the optional budget

[young turtle]

Generally i've always viewed the Strider as a mobile artillery

and every other kit for it is trying to be in service of that

[brisk flax]

yeah and I think it needs to be focused on that element

[indigo oasis]

Was trying to figure out how to submit a note on the github, but I can't find it sooo @carmine idol wanted to note that currently, the Goliath's Coercive Force is just a regular system instead of a Full Tech system. Just wanted to notify

[bold crystal]

the strider is definitely intended to be a mobile artillery, but the operator is kind of already that and they kind of overlap, except the strider has more text and less damage(than the corebook operator, at least).
they are distinct but the role is very similar.

[bold crystal]

there's also a little weirdness of like, the current strider setup is 'I have an artillery kit and a get out of dodge kit by default and then my optional kits give me another artillery kit and get out of dodge kit' - which is great if you swap kits out like this but otherwise means they're kind of one-note.
(the kits are fairly different, but it's still kind of an issue.)

[subtle nacelle]

This particular issue is a Data Error

[indigo oasis]

Gotcha, go to Data Error to submit a request. I'll submit the issue there so it's easier to find - unless it's already been noted?

[subtle nacelle]

If you don't see it in issues, we're probably not aware

you're by far our best QA

[carmine idol]

fr tho to you and others, the qa and issue spotting from everyone is incredible, tysm c: 💓

Also am currently on mhwilds vacation so do forgive my non-responsiveness 😎

[fringe peak]

honestly picking 2 out of a big list of different artillery kits with a few diverse optionals...

fuck ok lemme see if I can actually take a crack at this

[heavy pebble]

I'd prefer a strider that ALWAYS swaps its kit every turn as its gimmick, so players can predict what's coming.

[bold crystal]

the issue is they kind of already do that. like, a base strider can ordnance long rifle > swap kit > next turn swap kit again > long rifle again, and just swap for the bonus effect repeatedly until you can finally pin them down.

[brisk flax]

Yeah effectively there's not really a lot of incentive for the existing strider to not kit-swap as often as possible because swapping kits is the only way the Long Rifle gains paracausal

[fringe peak]

it's also very easily able to stay in it's range incriments as well.

[bold crystal]

plus all the non-long rifle kit swap bonuses are just kind of generally 'oh yeah, that's worth a quick action' - disengage as a quick, agility save or jammed, as a quick, difficult terrain zone and cover as a quick...

it's very low on opportunity cost.

[trail pivot]

my deal when i tackled the strider was

A) kill off the optional kits

B) give it actual reasons to not just spam swap kit,

[fringe peak]

I'd kinda do the opsoite. I'd design strider almost the same way MBT did if that makes sense?

[trail pivot]

that would be just kind of be making it extra complicated

i think there's a place for modular npcs but i probably wouldn't do it on the strider whos just supposed to be a guy, ultimately

[brisk flax]

yeah the MBT gets to be extra complex because the expectation is it's one to a customer

if the strider is meant to be a general use NPC, then that has to be taken into consideration

[arctic stag]

another combat tonight, first time with ultra - had a lot of fun with the new juggernaut trait(s)!

SCL was a blast

got it off twice and each time was a lot of fun

i sorta shot myself in the knee cuz i ran a hellfire projector with a lancaster in the party (aegis ultra)

prob couldve chosen something better

[brisk flax]

ah well

[arctic stag]

aegis allows for a cool utilization of the heat aspect of the juggernaut traits

was pretty cool

i know ive spoken about this before but i still feel aegis' are a bit funky and awkard in a way i cant really describe

i ran veteran seeders and i loved the homing mines

so much fun

cant wait to try out more of the vet optionals

[ancient forge]

Alright, got the go ahead with the group; in a few weeks I’ll be rolling out encounters with rebake npcs

[brisk flax]

nice

[ancient forge]

Looking forward to seeing how rebake avenger with a priest does

[brisk flax]

okay so did anything particularly stand out as working well or not well re: the ultra specifically, I know there's been debate regarding Juggernaut's changes

[ancient forge]

Party’s shaping up to have some fair bit of forced movement so they might be able to pull off some clever counter play

[arctic stag]

so the fight lasted until top of round 5, the ultra was an aegis with SCL + hellfire projector

the players took 2 structure off of it

first was the light laser, used juggernaut to take heat to repair it. rolled 5 heat

second was hellfire projector, didnt bother repairing it and ended the fight with it destroyed

i think both times to make it work it was fine

its effectively the cost of a limitless OC

which i think is cool

[neon blaze]

gotta say, after another session: damn I think my players are starting to get wise to the fact every Veteran has Limitless. that and maybe I'm a bit reckless with the allure of extra action economy

players managed to completely kill a veteran Berserker by depleting all of its stress, forcing a meltdown, and it definitely made the encounter very interesting for both sides when we suddenly had to treat the NPC like a nuclear football

kinda makes me wish heat gain was a more central thing to more NPCs, genuinely

[brisk flax]

That's a big part of the Limitless-as-baseline decision yeah (plus various other heat gain elements sprinkled throughout)

[neon blaze]

I unfortunately once again got 0 triggers of the unique Veteran traits (though I admit these weren't 100% legal either - I kept Feign Death, which did proc, in addition to giving the unique Vet traits because thats what the original encounter has and though it would play well with what extra adjustments i had added) but eh, it happens

just another case of the board state not falling in place for them to really shine - players were scattered across the entire map pretty much, either trying to deny enemy reinforcements or preparing for the extraction relay race, so no Cleave

all the more reason that default Limitless is just nice, frankly

[fringe peak]

I actually started to stabilize on veterans recently

On specifically QA veterans a really valid strategy I've started to do "overcharge then full action stabilize"

Cause it keeps them nice and cool

And let's me conserve for a big moment

[smoky bluff]

I love my assaults with Grenades Launchers and overcharge stabilize loop to roleplay soldier tf2

[dawn nova]

Is there a way you can get them a rocket jump

[smoky bluff]

Acrobat is the closest thing I got to

[dawn nova]

Come to think of it. An NPC that launches itself around the battlefield, using explosions that damage anyone it starts near, is an unharnessed gameplay niche

Could call it the Rocketeer

[brisk flax]

@plucky robin has made some stuff like that I'm pretty sure

also the Pyro has Explosive Jet

[plucky robin]

I have on the PC-side (The Ironleaf Foundry Lily is just 100% a TF2 Soldier joke), let me check my NPCs though...

Hmm...I've got one that turns other characters into that but not quite one that does it to itself.

[plucky robin]

The Damned can turn its enemies into that into that. Though it's less 'blowing up for mobility' and more 'I turned your friend into a bomb'.

Hellfire Seeds
Main Nexus
Smart, Seeking
+1/2/3
Line 5
2/3/4 Burn
On Hit: A hostile target hit becomes Primed until the end of the scene. An adjacent character can clear the effect passing an agility save as a quick action.

Abandon Hope
Protocol, System
The Damned causes a hostile Primed character in sensors to erupt in flame, dealing 6/8/10 AP energy damage to all hostile characters other than the Primed character in a Burst 2 area, then clearing Primed.

Where it tags people with Primed and then goes 'At the start of my turn, I can make a primed guy Fucking Explode!'

To make people go 'Oh, better go nowhere near my own allies'

(With most of the optionals designed to make 'keeping away from allies' trickier)

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1i7A669Il_u2hRLf5TEQ-L2kcLKlZShIs_hgZ4UYlMFg/edit?usp=sharing The Exorcist is a Defender with 'Focus Me Down or Run!' in the optionals.

Inverted Barrier
System, Full Action, Limited 1
The Exorcist gains 12/16/20 Overshield. At the End of the Next Round, all hostile characters that are Intangible or within Burst 3 of the Exorcist suffer Explosive Damage equal to its current overshield, then the Exorcist loses all overshield.

[dawn nova]

That one seems weirdly rude to the Calendula

[plucky robin]

To be fair, it's rude to a lot of people since it also banishes people to the shadow realm itself 😛

So it's 'People super close to me or people I am defendering against particularly hard'

[dawn nova]

Ahhh okay.

[plucky robin]

Actually, if you're cool with it not being Exploding but a similar 'Move Or I Will Fuck You Up' dynamic, the Landship might have what you want.

Coilgun Broadsides
Superheavy Cannon
+2/4/6, Knockback 2
Range 12
X Kinetic Damage 
This weapon can attack 1-2 targets at a time and has effects based on the range to the target.

-Attacks against characters entirely within range 5 have +1 Difficulty and deal 4/5/6 Kinetic Damage.
-Attacks against characters at least partially outside of Range 5 and entirely within Range 10 deal 6/8/10 Kinetic Damage
-Attacks against characters at least partially outside of Range 10 have +1 Accuracy and deal 6/8/10 Kinetic Damage + 2/3/4 Burn

The Landship's damage is very focused on being within the 10-12 range bracket, so it creates a sort of Ring of Danger, where you want to either Run Out or Run In but for god's sake not stand still. XD

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1UvPnPa0VgdLjF3Se_E8x-rsw8cM08OhFn1Cd86fysp4/edit?usp=sharing

But yeah, sadly my 'Explodes to move about, then explodes more to do damage when it moves' is on the PC-Side, not the NPC.

Sorry I didn't have anything that perfectly lines up with what you wanted.

[oak acorn]

https://tenor.com/view/thats-it-yes-thats-it-that-right-there-omg-that-thats-what-i-mean-gif-17579879

Whole thing's good stuff; great work, Kai

[rose hamlet]

With the defender-type stuff in the Engineer Rebake I keep thinking about how the Engineer is part Defender… but weirdly I think it’s the rare Artillery/Defender instead of Striker sometimes. Mostly because I tend to view Strikers as those who take the point, Defenders as those who hold the point, and Artillery that mostly just care about dealing damage at a safe distance

(My minimum range band for Artillery is also shorter than most folks, starting at range 10, so that factors into things)

Not really a comment on the rebake I guess, just thoughts on what falls under a given role label

[vale crescent]

I could see it being a damage heavy defender in a similar manner to how an archer feels like a heavy damage inflicting controller

[brittle cipher]

Tier 1 seeders can rocket jump! They've got 2 armor and the grav grenade launcher only does 2 damage at tier 1, so they can bounce themselves around with their own grenades.

They can also do this at tier 2 and 3 but will take 1-2 damage each time since the ggl's damage scales and their armor doesn't.

[brisk flax]

The rebake Engineer blurs some lines a bit, I tend to think of it as Striker/Support

"is Lock On a controller or support coded tool, the greatest thread in the history of the forums," etc

[arctic stag]

kai whats the consensus/discourse behind the new juggernaut stuff?

[brisk flax]

so far it's "not a lot of people have used it in practical scenarios enough for discourse to form"

what, is there discourse elsewhere I'm unaware of?

[arctic stag]

oh no u just mentioned it yesterday so i didnt know if there was a further convo

[brisk flax]

Not really no, there's been some gut feeling stuff but nothing concrete, and I'm discounting that

So far I've had feedback from two ultra fights, yours and YNMPylons, and neither case brought up anything specific or actionable

[arctic stag]

my players said they liked it too, if thats any help

cost benefit analysis over just "blegh u dont do anything"

[brisk flax]

Probably the big things I would check on are:
1). does using any one option over and over feel too easy an out? Some people have suggested the Impaired would be an always-pick over damage or action costs, but that's not something that's yet been born out through testing
2). does the additional cost make ultras feel too weak?

basically those would be the stress points I think would probably need to be looked at the most

[arctic stag]

okay, ill keep my eye on those next time i run an ultra

i never used the condition stuff but i never felt too weak

ill test it more

[indigo oasis]

Personally, even if Impair is an almost always easy pick, I’d consider if that’s necessarily a bad thing- when keeping an eye on the playtest data I mean