#The NPC Rebake Project and NPC Tinkering Power Zone (NO MULTIATTACKERS ALLOWED)

1 messages · Page 3 of 1

blissful lion
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and sometimes it just ends up being consuming the lock on and applying it again on their turn

indigo oasis
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That might be your luck, for me my luck is all over the place ._.

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At the end of the day it does ultimately come down to luck, and Lock On simply nudges things in a particular favor

indigo oasis
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Ya know a Bastion and Goliath would field interestingly together. This applies in base game but compounds itself in the rebakes (Goliath doesn’t have mid range weapon -> can spend QAs reloading for Bastion, Bastion can Friendly Interdict a Crush Targeted character, the Bastion can actually hide behind the Goliath for cover

opal folio
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stupid question, but i just want to make sure i'm not missing anything: the rebaked seeder mines are not hidden, correct?

blissful lion
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I believe not, since it activates when you're adjacent, not directly over it.

brisk flax
indigo oasis
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Question about the Specter rebake direction: was keeping Prowl as a base feature an easy or difficult decision?

Having run specters before, Prowl always seemed like… too much action efficiency. Specters are already permanently invisible, so with prowl added the specter almost becomes immune to overwatch and turns its invis from a defensive measure to just flat immunity to most things. Prowl feels like it makes a good thing too good, if that makes sense, when Hide and Boost would be fine individual quick actions for the specter to take

I feel like I must be missing something- is Prowl not really as big a problem as it feels to me in play, or are the changes made to specter intended to be significant enough to offset the power of Prowl?

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Unrelated- but small note about the Aegis, in the LCP it’s registered as size 1 instead of size 2

rose hamlet
brisk flax
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Prowl is good, but prowl on, idk, a hornet isn't really going to hit the same

indigo oasis
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Prowl on anything else becomes pretty map dependent, yeah

brisk flax
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Perma invisible and easy hiding aren't nothing, but players have access to some very cheap and effective anti invisible tech, but more to that I feel like the rebake specter reins in what I would identify more strongly as the rougher bits

indigo oasis
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Makes sense makes sense

brisk flax
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also the tactical cloak in this version even comes with a built-in way to break it if players are stubborn and refuse to invest in a lotus pod

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so all in all, I think prowl may be (and this is me speculating, playtest data is thin on the ground still) more vital to the specter's survival than previously

rose hamlet
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doing this mostly because I've been trying to do this for the official LCP stuff, but the PR for decapitalizing the core NPCs is currently awaiting review

arctic stag
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lol valk since ur here

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so im combining the rebakes with ur houserules

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how....would the witch's immoate interact with ur brace change

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i know this is kinda courting death by combining homebrew

brisk flax
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what is the brace change and which way would it interact

rose hamlet
# arctic stag how....would the witch's immoate interact with ur brace change

For Kai: Brace change is:

BRACE
Reaction, 1/scene
Trigger: You take damage, burn, or heat from a source other than yourself.
Effect: You gain RESISTANCE to all damage, burn, and heat from the triggering source.
end of statblock

So like, it would interact the exact same way as current Brace, except you could actually resist the Heat on the Miss effect (since my change doesn't require a Hit)

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you brace the Immolate attack, take half damage/heat/burn from it, and then carry on

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(in the future it's likely best to just ping me directly or hmu in #1254229800952922193 rather than drag my homebrew into Kai's thread)

brisk flax
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yeah that seems reasonably straightforward an interaction

arctic stag
carmine idol
rose hamlet
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oh shit I goofed on the whitespace, lemme fix that

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actually nvm I think it's fine

young swan
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Trying to compare and read and I feel like I keep missing

Of the 33 that are gonna be covered here (30 + Grunt + Veteran + Ultra) - i think im seeing 28 files in the google drive? Which 5 are missing currently?

brisk flax
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right now what's missing is the veteran and ultra templates, and of the core NPCs it's the rainmaker, mirage, and priest

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what I plan to do when I've finished all the NPCs is compiling them into a single unified document

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I'm doing them individually at the moment just because it's easier that way than constantly doing the "update this document" thing in gdrive each time I add one

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so there's that plus some miscelany

young swan
brisk flax
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nah that's fine

young swan
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Makes total sense, really excited to dig into these at some point

brisk flax
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it's those three and the templates

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and I'm also probably going to be tinkering in general as feedback comes back in

brisk flax
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all right, after banging my head against this wall for a few days, I think I'm ready to call this one done

📎 Rainmaker_Rebake.pdf
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notes: after tinkering with, and discarding, a number of concepts, I decided to see what happened if I leaned into the book's proposal that the rainmaker was meant to be a slant-controller, and I decided I liked it enough to continue working in that direction

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javelin rockets still get the fuck out, as I'm uninterested in perpetuating that combo, likewise with the reliable (for reasons I have expounded upon numerously)

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I decided to try an experiment where I'm keeping the knockback specifically to play more with the establishment of numerous hostile lingering/area type effects, like Skyhammer Salvo, Atlas Missiles, Hound Missiles, etc

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There's nothing in the Rainmaker's kit that allows it to put a thing down and then knock you into it for automatic extra damage though

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rangewise, things have largely been consolidated into Range 15, an overall shortening of the average range of effect for the rainmaker that previously existed within a weird band of like range 20-30

rose hamlet
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Rainmaker at Range 15 feels right

brisk flax
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It also, and this is purely my personal foible, puts the artillery NPCs at a set of staggered range bands

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Operators at 10, Rainmakers at 15, Snipers at 20, and Bombards at 25

rose hamlet
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Yeah no that’s satisfying imo

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I think overall this rebake leans into the fun missile-lobbing archetype of the rainmaker, which I’m here for

I do wonder if there’s a more elegant way to handle/workaround the forced movement of hound missiles

plucky patrol
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There not being any range 15 artillery NPCs in core has been a minor gripe of mine for a while, so I see this as an absolute win lol

rose hamlet
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I like that huntsman needs to eat the lock on in order to benefit from AP

brisk flax
rose hamlet
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Feels like this iteration of rainmaker also moonlights as a support with all the lock on it can provide

rose hamlet
brisk flax
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the most straightforward approach would be "movement immunity" but that just turns the missile into a damage check

rose hamlet
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Yeah no I’m not espousing that either; I’m just wondering what would happen if it’s base speed was increased instead

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Though now that there’s so much lock on in the base kit, maybe it’ll have higher uptime on the doubled speed

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In effect: “you can use forced movement or shoot it but you have less time to do so, so hurry up”

brisk flax
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Plus, and this is a slightly orthogonal thing, the fact that it has to be deployed no further than range 15 also adds to that

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I think a big factor in the hound/wolfhound getting cheesed out is people deploying them from like range 20-30 which provides ample time to deal with it or just ignore it

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deploying closer accelerates that pressure from the outset

rose hamlet
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That’s true! I’ll reserve further judgment until after some testing then

indigo oasis
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Skyhammer is a rework of Javelin Rockets I honestly quite like. It’s very flavorful too, and does a lot while still needing a lot of help to do all it wants to do. Plus, giving the Rainmaker more access to Lock On is always great. Good job there- can’t have been easy to puzzle out I imagine

manic sky
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Skyhammer can be placed in non-free spaces, is that right? So assuming no friendly off-turn movement, things inside that area will basically just take Lock On?

indigo oasis
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Without help yeah- to be fair that‘s not an unheard of effect.

manic sky
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I was just making sure I had it right. I don't disagree with it or anything, I wanna test it first.

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I will say I like the Hound Missile design of "you can still puppet missile it back into the Rainmaker but it might not go as planned"

indigo oasis
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I will say the replacement of Heat with Knockback on Hades Missiles makes complete sense, I don’t know why they applied heat in the first place, but I will miss the surprise Heatgunning it could do

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(As I’m anticipating an LCP update with the rainmaker now being established, @carmine idol idk if it’s already on your list, but just wanna let you know that the LCP has the Aegis as size 1 instead of size 2)

rose hamlet
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But PUPPETMASTER and Ferrous Lash work

brittle cipher
manic sky
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oh right right. I'm remembering my first first ever attempt at using it

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and I was so new to Lancer I didn't realize

rose hamlet
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The disconnect for me tbh is having to roll a systems check to knock back a missile I threw a War Pike at

manic sky
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It haunts me still...

indigo oasis
# indigo oasis Skyhammer is a rework of Javelin Rockets I honestly quite like. It’s very flavor...

To harp on this a bit more, I was actually kind of skeptical about whether I’d wanna run the rebaked Rainmaker when hearing about the removal of Knockback, Javelins, and Reliable. Sure they were maybe not the best to all have in a single NPC, but it took a lot of the teeth from the rainmaker and I wasn’t sure how it could conserve its identity while compensating for the power redistribution.

The Lock On alone from Skyhammmer instantly made me fall in love with this rainmaker and erased my (admittedly very surface level) doubts- it’s an extremely elegant design decision that does a lot by doing very little, it’s great!

brisk flax
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that is, if you're using Skyhammer Salvo as a way to action econ out 2+ lock ons by slapping it onto a PC deathball, the Rainmaker itself isn't able to benefit from those lock ons immediately

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so it isn't that it's not powerful per se (anything that can theoretically gain you multiple actions' worth of benefit for one action is strong), but it isn't something I would look at as a direct linear power boost to the Rainmaker's own output, if that makes sense

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and if used against a single person, well, you could also just have Locked On to them

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the effect of the zone itself is also a consideration in the power equation of it all, but as a means to just go "I put this down to guarantee lock on happens" I think it's not a straightforward no-brainer

opal folio
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making it a lock on focused class is very interesting! gives it kind of a hybrid artillery/support role since it can either buff itself or let other characters use the lock on

brisk flax
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I've been doing a lot of lock on focused stuff here and there given the general accuracy shaving-down throughout

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the Ace gets some stuff like that too, the Specter slaps you with lock on if you fail the baked in check to break its invisibility, etc

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the fact that Lock On doesn't stack makes it, I think, good currency to play around with more liberally

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"is lock on a support effect or a controller effect, the greatest thread in the history of forums" etc

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oh yeah the rainmaker is in the gdrive folder, just to clarify

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anyway

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that means I'm down to two NPCs remaining, the priest and mirage

# 
Reaction, System, 1/round, Recharge 6+
Trigger: A character linked by Investiture takes damage.
Effect: The triggering character must choose one; the damage from the triggering effect is reduced to 0 and this reaction automatically recharges, or the triggering character becomes Stunned until the end of their next turn.``` things are going great
brittle cipher
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10/10, no notes

brisk flax
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fractal assault currently exists in a space of extreme feast or famine, where a recharge 5+ reaction can either have no effect OR one of the harshest effects in the game, and go on cooldown either way

brittle cipher
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"my buddy has slightly worse deathcounter or you get stunned" is a fun design space

brisk flax
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it's one of those things where I couldn't actually tell you whether it's powerful or not except to say that it's sometimes very powerful and then sometimes it isn't, and it has extremely restricted use-targeting on top of that

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the priest is kind of a weird one in general, it's awkwardly split between "buffing one guy" and "idk, protecting whoever I guess" with the merest splash of tech attack on top just to say it has one offensive action it can do more than the Support

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also "1d3 resistance procs" is so weird

indigo oasis
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I like the mechanic of giving resistance against x number of attacks, it’s inspired my players into doing some fun weird workarounds, but 1d3 number of attacks is odd… also the exclusivity of “attacks that hit”, meaning if the target is unarmored and you have a reliable weapon you may be better off missing

plucky patrol
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I legitimately think empowered shield should just be what dispersal shield does at base

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Overshield is an underused mechanic, and it's easier to track and more consistent

brisk flax
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well,

# 
System, Quick Action, Recharge 5+
The Priest releases a cloud of miniature drones that cluster around a nearby mech, providing protection. The Priest or an allied character within Sensors gains 5/6/7 Overshield and Resistance to damage and heat from the next attack that hits. This effect does not stack.```
manic sky
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Kai, what's your take on Fractal Assault being able to protect the Priest itself while linked? Should it be only the target of Investiture, or can both benefit?

brisk flax
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it's already generous that Dispersal Shield can benefit the priest themselves

manic sky
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I haven't ever used Fractal Assault before so I hadn't really studied it before, is all. That definitely makes sense.

brisk flax
indigo oasis
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That was fast

brisk flax
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I've been working on the last three piecemeal

indigo oasis
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Grateful for the clarification on Abjure. It wasn’t clear in Shrike Code or Abjure so having it say “attack roll” helps

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I can’t believe it just occurred to me that Priest’s Sanctuary is pretty much one-to-one stolen from D&D

indigo oasis
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I do like how empowered investiture takes a few leaves from Empath 3, makes it feel more meaningful than “passive resistance buff that’s sorta redundant if you’re using dispersal shield.”

This priest rebake definitely feels like it took the berserker route of “mostly fine, just needed some adjustment here and there”

brisk flax
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One thing I wanted to lean into with it more is the Anti-Tech angle, which is teased a bit through Hardened Target and Fortress but those are, in the CRB, just sort of jammed in there because ????????????

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also nobody ever remembers that Investiture targets can benefit from the Priest's systems score

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so that's one area I decided to carve out a facet

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then obviously I wanted to add some focus to Investiture itself, but I frankly don't like Greater Investiture that much

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it's a little too "everyone gets rooted in a localized area" plus "this one guy becomes tanky and that's it"

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the rest is just "general protective stuff" between Sanctuary and Dispersal Shield

arctic stag
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just finished a combat this week, with rebake pyros, aegises, scourers, and seeders

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main notes are about seeders, which i have fielded over three different combats. very nice and i like the new interactions with the grav launcher and mine laying

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very fun to play around and visibly made my speedy players move AROUND them for fear of triggering them

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lotta fun

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aegises didnt get many explosive turns but my pegasus player said the threat of their defense net was invisible but very present, which was very welcome

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i still felt like the pyros felt like they had little movement but this might just be cuz it was a recon. will need to test on more sitreps to see

brisk flax
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Pyros will, I think, still be sort of "static area" defenders like Demolishers

plucky robin
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'I defend by telling you to stay off the objective or die'

brisk flax
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the rebake is more about expanding their reach more than giving them more mobility

arctic stag
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thats fair

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just something i felt like "oh well i should just make them all vets with acrobat"

brisk flax
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I'm glad the seeder seems to be working out favorably

arctic stag
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but i know ur changing that

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seeder was a highlight for my group

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"annoying but fun" was a note from a couple of my players

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there has been no negative responses to any of the rebakes

rose hamlet
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Otherwise I like how the Priest looks; hooking hardened target to investiture just makes innate sense

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Feedback trait is also fun

brisk flax
# 
Sanctuary
Trait, Full Tech
The Priest chooses an allied character in range 10. Any other character that wishes to attack the
chosen ally must first pass a systems save. On a failed save, the protected ally is no longer a
valid target for that character until the start of that character’s next turn.``` this is the text in the PRv2
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I think that makes it pretty clear

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And the rebake version should be even more explicit in this regard

rose hamlet
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Got it, yeah no I just remember the interpretation I mentioned coming up in #rules-questions or #gm-corner and me going “that seems wrong but okay I guess 🤷 ”

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Priest rebake is looking nice and refined though

brisk flax
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let's just finish it out

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notes: the mirage's stuff remains largely the same, though I ditched Reality Flicker as I feel it overlaps a bit with the Operator and the Mirage already has Dataveil as a self-protective trait. The Mirage has a lot of soft cover in its kit, which is neat and all but means a lot of it is weirdly redundant with itself, hence the changes to Warp Targeting

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The biggest changes are probably to Metafold Shove and Multiplicity

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Metafold Shove, I have always felt, exists in a bit of a weird area being a tech attack that doesn't key off Sensors in any capacity, strictly for balance reasons (because imagine if the Mirage could grab someone at range 15 and then swap them with someone else in LoS) but I've never been a massive fan of that, plus it still lends itself to big displacement given you're swapping the target with an ally within "range infinite"

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I dunno, it's a weird one

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this version is an attempt to have more intuitive targeting while still preserving some sensible restrictions on how it can be used

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it's something I think I'd like to see get tested in the wild

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as for Multiplicity, it's just a really incredibly strong defensive reaction, a 1/round reactive counterspell

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stuff like Barrel Roll exists on a recharge 5+, meanwhile the mirage can just use Multiplicity 1/round and the only gate is a systems save or else the attack is totally no-sold and the target gets to move, like Fractal Assault it's very all-or-nothing, and hell, even fractal assault is on a 5+ recharge, soooo

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rather than giving it a recharge of its own, I'm instead giving it the swallowtail treatment, where a failed save gives the target resistance, a successful one gives them the teleport

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"you actually shot an illusion" is like, I get the fantasy, but implementation-wise I feel that Multiplicity is weirdly very strong for what it does

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this does mean multiplicity goes from granting Immunity (one of the few things that does) to Resistance, which can therefore be bypassed with shredded, paracausal mod, fabi, etc, so it's less powerful in that regard, but I'm not convinced it needs to be as strong as it currently is

errant needle
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I do like the Warp Targeting change. I used that one recently with a Mirage and found that like, soft cover wasn't quite enough to make me want to place my guys out in the open free of any cover, but if they used the terrain at all, it became irrelevant.

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It also kinda devalued Warp Sensors

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because it just became a heatgun since everything already had soft cover from Warp Targeting.

brisk flax
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right, exactly

errant needle
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And yeah, Multiplicity definitely deserved a nerf.

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I also used that and it was by far the single most feelsbad moment of that combat

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What with having the target be Marklight marked and being targeted by a NucCav Cyclone Pulse Rifle in the Danger Zone... that one reaction basically ate a ton of the PC's actions.

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I really like how it actually gives both sides sort of a concession for "losing" the check

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If you stack up some wombo combo, you might get your damage halved, but it still does damage. Meanwhile if the NPC loses, they still get some survival options because odds are you're using this to try to avoid somebody's huge hit and will need to retreat if the damage goes through.

indigo oasis
errant needle
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It is the exact same in the rebake, yes.

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Warp Targeting got changed so that the two can stack

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Otherwise if you take Warp Targeting, the Mirage just gives everyone Soft Cover passively, so the "enemy treats next attack as if in soft cover" clause of Warp Sensors is pointless

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Whereas Rebake Mirage's Warp Targeting gives additional soft cover that would stack with the Warp Sensors debuff.

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Your Everest that gets hit with Warp Sensors shooting a guy standing in an empty field is running against a +2 difficulty due to the +1 from Warp Targeting (passive, overlaying the entire map mostly) and the +1 from the tech attack hit.

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Whereas RAW, he'd only be against +1 since the two don't stack.

indigo oasis
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Ah I missed that

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I like how Metafold Shove made the folks who swap places have to be within range 5 of each other, rather than the Mirage needing to be within range 5 of the target and that being it

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Also, on an overall rebake view, I like the change on NPCs where the die roll from reactions and the like determines what effect occurs rather than if the effect occurs at all

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But yeah, the Mirage definitely feels like one of those “mostly fine sans a few points” NPC classes, so this version is a fun one to see.

Although, I’ve always been confused as to why Illusory Subsystems and Glitch Scanners are two separate traits when Illusory Subsystems is pretty much just a better version of Glitch Scanners. I really expected that to be changed, but maybe I’m missing something lol.

brisk flax
# 
System, Quick Tech, +2/+4/+6
The Mirage makes a tech attack against a target within Sensors. On a success, the target treats all characters allied to the Mirage as Invisible until the start of the Mirage's next turn.

Glitch Scanners
System, Quick Tech
The Mirage’s advanced electronic countermeasures play havoc with enemy systems, causing them to register false positives on the battlefield. They may teleport up to two allied characters within Sensors, moving them 5 spaces in any direction – revealing their “true” locations. ```
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these two things aren't remotely similar

indigo oasis
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... oops

indigo oasis
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Accidentally got names mixed up

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Again- it is very probable that I'm just missing something lol

brisk flax
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Setting aside that Warp Sensors deals heat, I view them as being similar-ish but they're countered by different things, anti-invis doesn't work against Warp Sensors, seeking/cover-denial doesn't work against Illusory Subroutines

indigo oasis
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Valid

brisk flax
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Also Warp Sensors benefits the Mirage

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and Illusory Subroutines doesn't

indigo oasis
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OH! I never noticed that

brisk flax
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the Mirage does have Dataveil to fall back on, but it's a quick action to shift that back and forth

manic sky
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Do my eyes fail me or has Blip been uncoupled from Glitch Scanners?

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Oh I see. They weren't coupled... technically... in the first place. Just written kind of confusingly.

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So I didn't commit a horrible error on that one map that nearly actually made my players lose.

brisk flax
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so

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back in the PRv2, glitch scanners and blip were sort of conjoined

# 
Trait, Quick Action, Reaction
Up to two allies of the Mirage’s choice in its sensor range can immediately teleport up to 5 spa-
ces in any direction to their ‘real’ location. This movement does not provoke reactions and ig-
nores engagement.

The Mirage can use this system as a reaction to any other action or movement it can see 1/
round, but can only teleport one ally if used this way.```
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the CRB decoupled this into two different blocks, which makes sense, but decided that the mirage "gained" blip by having glitch scanners, which doesn't because glitch scanners isn't optional in the first place

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so there's no reason to not just make them two separate abilities and be done with it

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It would make more sense to do it as "the mirage also gains blip" if it was an optional like the Archer's covering fire or something

brittle cipher
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it'd make a bit of sense if glitch scanners was a system cause then blip'd get destroyed with it but CRB glitch scanners is a trait so

brisk flax
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the rebake version does make Glitch Scanners a system but to be frank I think system trauma isn't great in the first place and I'm uninterested in "what if system trauma could give you a twofer"

brittle cipher
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nah that's super fair

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"system trauma: your NPC is now blank" sucks ass

indigo oasis
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Personally I'd prefer it if it weren't conjoined

brisk flax
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I see no real compelling reason to have them linked like that, as far as I know it's just a holdover from the weirdly written PRv2 implementation

rose hamlet
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Yeah no, frankly I’m surprised Blip isn’t an optional on its own tbh

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Manifest False Idols looks untouched? Which yeah is fine, I just realized that it’s one of my least favorite Mirage optionals because of all the shit it does lol

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The optional most in need of some paragraph breaks lol

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Regardless, reducing Mirage down to 4 base traits from 5 is good imo

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CRB Warp Sensors is a weird tech action imo because like, it’s very similar to NPC Invade. Except it also stacks with the Invade and can be used alongside it in a full tech

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But like T1 if you’re looking to only use 1 Quick Tech and Glitch Scanners, Warp Sensors feels a bit worse to use than default invade? I don’t know, it’s competing weirdly

brisk flax
rose hamlet
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Sure yeah; stand on the idol to prevent repositioning yeah

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It’s a weird tech Javelin Missiles in some ways

brisk flax
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I look at Manifest False Idols as, in large part, setting up teleport spots you can use alongside Glitch Scanners that you could also use as ways to Jam people with forced movement if you feel like it

manic sky
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A player of mine asked if you can deliberately fail saves and I did not know you could. That's because I think in nearly any instance it comes up failing is distinctly a worse outcome. Making Multiplicity the first thing, that I've seen anyway, where you might want to fail.

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Not saying this is a bad thing, just noting it.

brisk flax
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I think the calculus on "would I rather have my attack blunted or let someone get some free movement" is going to land on the side of not picking the option that does less damage 99% of the time

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and if someone is bringing a paracausal modded gun to a multiplicity fight and going "I will simply deliberately fail the save and do full damage anyway," the GM can simply not use multiplicity against the guy with the paracausal HMG

heavy pebble
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Tried out some of the rebake classes; worked great. Only weirdness was with the barricade's Titan-Snare Drone (which I think was also a problem in the original, but I might as well report it anyway). I was able to snare someone, then place a wall to block off the drone in a hallway so they couldn't attack it. They got rescued but it could have been really awful. I was tempted to grapple my own snare drone and run away with it so they could never remove immobilized. Maybe it's okay since I think they can stabilize as a failsafe, but we found some weird interactions.

Other than that, I can report that new sentinel was more effective at holding people still. The PCs focused them down very fast, but remarked that they felt tough and at size 2 now have slightly higher than expected evasion.

Also used a rebake Ultra Operator. Was afraid to do so with the original. The players struggled to get clear shots on it without putting themselves in danger, which I liked. Last time I ran a regular elite Operator the players gave up all hope of reaching it and just died.

vale crescent
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It feels a bit strange because it can potentially get worse on elite/ultra mirages whereas reap potent on a mirage that activates first one round then last next round

brisk flax
vale crescent
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Fair

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Aight

brisk flax
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My assumption is it exists that way to stymie off-turn attackers as well as on-turn ones

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that is, it works that way so someone who's leaning hard into Vanguard 3 reaction attack stuff can't just shrug it off

vale crescent
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I just haven't read Illusory subroutines in the core book I guess, It's basically the same 🙃

brisk flax
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re: titan-snare drone, that's basically an existing issue with it as well

rose hamlet
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TSD definitely runs into some nasty scenarios yeah; maybe a QOL buff would be an Escape Check like how Lock/hold has?

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I’d have to reread it to check for feasibility

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That or like, an ongoing start-of turn check/save since it triggers at start of turn

heavy pebble
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I guess the drone could move into the victim's space and clamp on to them, so they can't lose line of sight to it.

vale crescent
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That would be good, however the drone remains active

#

Multiple peeps can be snared byy the same drone

heavy pebble
#

Yeah. It was funny to watch it completely ruin the players using mule harness.

#

But I think clamping on to the target would fix most of the issues, and so would be worth it.

brisk flax
heavy pebble
#

Yeah, makes sense

vale crescent
#

wait, just clocked... That's all NPCs typpes accounted for 😎

#

Hell yeah

#

Human rebake when? /j

blissful lion
#

I wonder if you could just refund the limited system if they take a full action/turn to break out

vale crescent
#

Make it like pinningg spire on white witch after it toggles?

rose hamlet
#

I mean Titan Snare is an AOE isn’t it

vale crescent
#

"Aoe", as in "Triggers on targets in range" rather than "Burst 3"

rose hamlet
#

Right exactly

#

Like this is a tarpit trap meant to catch multiple mechs so it’s a little weird if it refunded on an escape

blissful lion
#

true

brisk flax
#

So my take on the titan-snare drone is that since it's something that isn't really markedly different from the core rulebook version and I'm unaware of it being some real serious issue until itself, it's not something I'm super interested in changing

#

If there's an emergent issue with it, I suspect it may have less to do with the drone itself and more to do with the increased flexibility with which the rebake barricade can deploy obstructing terrain in ways it otherwise couldn't before

#

All of which is to say that if people want to test that sort of interaction I'd be happy to get the feedback on it, idk about "someone could grapple-nap the drone" as that's already a thing someone could do and I'm not sure I view it as a major issue unless I've missed a lot of discourse on the subject

rose hamlet
#

The “grapple-nap” was proposed as a means of pulling punches for their players above and didn’t sound like an issue on its own

#

I think the most prominent “issue” I know with CRB Titan-Snare is if someone happens to also use a Strider Jamming Pylon in the same area, it becomes incredibly difficult to destroy the drone to escape without outside help

Which like, obviously that’s a hyper specific combo and not particularly easy to ensnare someone, but the “wall off” placement mentioned earlier kinda reminded me of that interaction. Maybe warrants more testing, but yeah the potentiality of the “can’t get to the drone” scenario is why I suggested a “save ends” effect as a bone to throw to a victim

indigo oasis
#

But also there is just Stabilizing

#

So like.. if you can’t reach the drone, Stabilizing doesn’t feel like too big a cost to clear the immobilize at that point. Plus there’s always arcing/seeking to hit the drone, or general ranged attacks for Grapple Napping

heavy pebble
#

The most likely situation is that the Barricade prints a wall between the drone and the victim to block line of sight. To me it seemed like a weird and unintended strategy. It was possible before, but it is easier with the Range 3 printing. If it hasn't come up before then it's probably not a big deal. In my game they just got a friend to shoot it.

brisk flax
#

I think the issue is, if it's a thing, more predicated on that than the drone itself, if that makes sense

#

"get a friend to shoot the drone" as an outcome feels pretty okay to me

heavy pebble
#

It's not that it's unbeatable, the tactic just felt wrong and weird to us.

rose hamlet
#

The whole imagining that “the drone is an anchor point which maintains the Immobilized” is honestly what I think is making the Cube-drone interaction weird, too: There’s maybe an underlying expectation that the drone is literally tethering the affected character and that it would need special measures to clear (that aren’t just stabilizing)

#

But I guess stuff like Lock/Hold and Charged Stake set the example of “this is what a system looks like when you can’t escape it except with special actions”

brisk flax
#

Titan-Snare Drone works via "pulse" of some sort

trail pivot
#

yeah, its kind of like how the breacher shredd lasts "until stabilize" but other things can clear it

#

the way we tend to read it is to compare it to the Slowed from Prone or the Imobilized from being smaller in the grapple: the text doesnt say you are Slowed/immobilized until you clear the prone/grapple, it says "a fact of being prone or grappled is that you are Slowed/immobilized"

rose hamlet
#

Dunno how I’ve played Lancer this long only to realize the distinction between Lock Hold’s immobilize and Titan Snare’s immobilize until now

#

Yeah no that makes sense

#

There’s no comparable wording that they’re “snared” by the titan snare drone and immobilized while snared, with circumstances for escaping the snare

carmine idol
#

Took a lil longer but the Priest and Mirage are here! :>

indigo oasis
carmine idol
#

Ah!

rose hamlet
carmine idol
#

You mentioned this a while back, I forgot to reply - I think Kai mentioned it's a typo on the sheet?

carmine idol
#

Nope never mind, soon indeed I think! xP

indigo oasis
rose hamlet
carmine idol
#

Ah - I'm reading back through the chatlogs, it was Barricade that was a typo

#

Yup @indigo oasis good spot, that's on me!

indigo oasis
#

No problem!

carmine idol
#

Thanks @rose hamlet for the reminder that the Rainmaker was out, I'd completely missed it 😅

That said, with this I believe all NPC's are done! :D

GitHub
Release 1.12.0 Rainmaker Release (Mirage and Priest are here too) ·...

Technically the Rainmaker release, but the previous release was so short it feels worth mentioning that the Mirage and Priest are here too. Have fun!
Also thanks to asquared79 on Pilot.net for spot...

#

Got a lovely individual who's done the Grunt stuff too so that'll be along in a future release soon prolly

vale crescent
#

Oooh, Mirages just don't teleport with standard move anymore

#

Interesting...

brisk flax
vale crescent
#

Yeah

#

Like... I thought of it

#

They don't need it

#

It just means, they're a bit easier to fuckingg GET with overwatch and such

indigo oasis
#

The Mirage and Priest and Rainmaker are gonna be very immediately relevant and I am excited :D

#

The Lock On from the Rainmaker is what I’m most excited about- that additional support element during a Holdout is gonna be devious and useful

vale crescent
#

Rainmakers gettingg fucking nerfed like they deserve

indigo oasis
#

Tbh it doesn’t feel like that much of a nerf

#

They lose the Reliable damage and some range, sure, and Hunstman’s AP only triggers when the Lock On is consumed, but I’d argue the Skyhammer Salvo is more of a side grade, able to be placed in non-free spaces and add in large swaths of lock on as well as indefinitely making an area a “no fly” zone

vale crescent
#

It just did too much

#

Too much damage (missile salvo + javelin)

Too much multi target (3 attacks)

Too anti armour (huntsman)

Too anti agility (reliable)

I had a gripe with huntsman too, losing lock on was much harder to do than for it to be inflicted. AP only on consume is nice

#

As sad as I am to see Javelins go, skyhammer salvo is a sidegrade that achieves what Javelins should have achieved but better

#

Skyhammer as a glimpse looks better at area Denial and locking application whereas Javelins was boring control method of "take damage idiot"

#

Tbh idk how skyhammer will play until I play it

indigo oasis
#

Skyhammer is also better telegraphed due to the immediate effect beign Lock On as opposed to damage- that way getting knocked back into it from Missile Pods sets up more for combos rather than just being the whole combo

arctic stag
#

how does one import the grunt rebake into foundry?

indigo oasis
arctic stag
#

theres a gitup repo tho, i just cant figure out how to import it into foundry

indigo oasis
#

If it's just artillery however- what you wanna do is, according to the instructions in the github, download the contents as a zip file (the contents not the folder they're contained in)

#

Then you wanna change the file type from .zip to .lcp- you'll wanna do this manually

#

You can do this by renaming the file - if the file type isn't an option to be changed when doing so, it's likely turned off on your computer, and you're gonna have to hunt around to figure out how to turn it on

#

I'd explain how I did it for windows but I cannot remember

arctic stag
#

yeah im using windows

arctic stag
indigo oasis
brittle cipher
indigo oasis
#

Thank you I had completely forgotten

arctic stag
#

yeah its not working for me

indigo oasis
#

Oof, which part?

arctic stag
#
  1. selected both npc_classes.json and npc_features.json in the grunt rebake pack folder
  2. compressed them into a singular .zip file
  3. changed the file extension from .zip to .lcp
  4. selected the file from foundry to import it via the lancer compendium manager
  5. no option to "import lcp" appeared
indigo oasis
#

Hm. You may wanna ask #lancer-vtt or #lcp-tech-support about this, idk how this works tbh

arctic stag
#

kk

last blade
last blade
arctic stag
#

whats that

#

theres no lcp manifest in the folder

last blade
#

yeah the grunt rebake doesn't have one yet; you could steal the one from the NPC rebake and it'd work just as fine (though the in-app name and description of the LCP will have it appear as the NPC rebake)

arctic stag
#

thank you!

carmine idol
#

Now we await kai's inevitable change doc :^D

rose hamlet
#

Hey at least it all exists now with version control 😄

carmine idol
#

Was definitely worth going through the process lol

#

Thanks for your help on this too btw 🥰

rose hamlet
#

Hey happy to help haha

#

I’m just glad that there’s now an easy-to-access LCP for this, so much more convenient

vale crescent
#

Wanna double check impending threat on the archer:

  • Target becomes impaired as suppressed
  • Target shoots ally of the archer
  • Archer shoots
  • Hit or miss doesn't matter, damage is dealt
  • Target loses impaired and can shoot ally of archer without difficulty
carmine idol
#

So my understanding is that damage is only dealt if the attack from the Archer actually hits, but beyond that I think your sequence lines up all good 🤔

rose hamlet
#

Reliable deals damage hit or miss

carmine idol
#

oh i missed the reliable tag

#

But yah I'd imagine given the Archers attack resolves before the triggering attack, the triggering character would thereby no longer be under suppress and therefore not be impaired

rose hamlet
#

Ironic lol

vale crescent
#

Yeah lol

supple leaf
indigo oasis
indigo oasis
vale crescent
#

Me seeingg an NPC come out and then going "ok a new NPC released" then after the session I run on the same day see said NPC has been updated on to the git a couple hours back

carmine idol
#

the doc has diagnosed me terminally lancer-coded, it has it's boons 💀

#

Huge props out to the others working on this @pulsar hound and @subtle nacelle too, the lancer-pill is a burden best shared 😎

indigo oasis
subtle nacelle
#

certifiably, i work very slowly

indigo oasis
rose hamlet
#

IME it’s small but often comes back later

indigo oasis
#

I haven’t been spending any downtimes trying to reduce mine ._.

vale crescent
#

Invokes "Lancer pilled" burden during a date to inflict +1 DIFF on the roll

errant needle
#

Doing a combat with a Rebake Barricade, Witch, and two Engineers. The first engineer got quite a bit out of the turrets even with a couple getting swatted regularly. They did manage to structure the Lancaster though, even with a Swallowtail using Prophetic Scanners. Also did next to nothing to the Tortuga, which is working as intended.

The Witch managed to Predatory Logic a Danger Zone Sherman which instantly made it everyone's primary target, then turned around and Tear Down'd the Tortuga, making a nasty decision for the Tort as they could move in to swat the Witch and take a guaranteed Reactor Stress or stabilize and let it get away. The Barricade dropping Drag Down on the Tortuga as well combo'd nasty.

brisk flax
#

The Witch managed to Predatory Logic a Danger Zone Sherman lol, lmao

echo wolf
errant needle
#

The Swallowtail Prophetic Scanners reaction'd that to reduce the poor Black Witch to taking resisted damage.

#

Also, the Tortuga by the end of the thing decided to roll the dice that surely one of the Engineer turrets would miss.

#

...all six of them hit.

#

and it turns out enough Turrets can structure a LL2 Tortuga.

trail pivot
#

well that's what armor is for

errant needle
#

When, y'know, six of them are out

plucky patrol
#

engineer turrets do be like that

#

consider shooting them

#

or the engineer

brisk flax
#

Something else that's noteworthy, not a condemnation but just pointing it out, is that engineer turrets don't have the same "no damage on successful saves" clause that grunts do, which means grenades can take them out fairly deterministically

plucky patrol
#

ooh, I didn't notice that

#

my demolitionist gilg player will be happy to here that lol

plucky robin
#

Always nice to throw grenades a bone.

trail pivot
#

did the engineer turret rebake damage change

#

or was the tortuga just like low on hp/scrawning or something

ancient forge
#

Damage seems the same (4) so six hits against a tortuga (2 armor) would be 12 damage. Even maxing out hp investment at ll2, that’d at least get it past halfway to structuring by itself

#

Unless I bungled something

#

But any prior damage plus that seems like it could do it

indigo oasis
#

Btw, thank you Kai for the shadow buff to Hacker 2 by making things like Glitch Scanners tech actions now

#

(Would be nice to extend it to stuff like Investiture, but a. Can’t have everything and that’s ok, and b. That kind of interaction gets kind of wonky. If you Hack./Slashed while investiture is up does it get shut down? If that’s possible RAW would keeping that combo be good? It’s a weird space)

errant needle
brisk flax
#

this is the current version of the revised veteran template, which should now be compatible with both rebaked and CRB versions of the NPCs

brittle cipher
#

huge

surreal zenith
#

this
this is beautiful

brisk flax
#

the prior version, if you had it, was something that was made before most of the rebake stuff and therefore lots of it was weirdly redundant, incompatible with one version or another, etc

surreal zenith
#

i love this

image.png
brisk flax
#

so this version is designed such that no class-specific veteran traits should have any compatibility issues regardless of which version of the NPC you choose to run it with

brittle cipher
rose hamlet
#

Priest’s Power Rerouting is great because iirc it actually has a high heatcap

vale crescent
#

Oooo

rose hamlet
#

+2 Heat on Pyro flamethrower is nice and easy

brittle cipher
#

OHOHOHOHOHO
oh I like this

image.png
#

local sentinel enjoyer (me) is very excited

rose hamlet
#

Mag mines for seeder is actually really cool

vale crescent
#

Me double checking the prepared veterans in my next combats

rose hamlet
#

Puts mines in a better position and easier to use grav grenade with then

vale crescent
#

The other vet rebake had other non-CRB NPCs in it, do you think you'll end up touchingg them up with the vet rebake Kai?

brisk flax
rose hamlet
#

Ah, the Witch trait is simple and clean (Invade also Slows)

brisk flax
#

I'm more or less centering the project at the moment on core rulebook content, mech NPCs and certain templates only

vale crescent
#

Aye fair

brisk flax
#

There's a non-zero chance I might actually look at publishing this, and if I do so I think it's going to work better as something more self-contained

vale crescent
#

The other vet one was fun seeingg the wallflower NPCs, just curious how I'd see other NPCs fare... Mostly the MBT since you actually designed that

#

But these traits are cool

opal folio
# brisk flax hi hello

how do you feel about making Feign Death an obscured trait? I guess it wouldn't work cause if there's a Veteran with a hidden trait you immediately know which one it is

#

but still, i think it's fundamentally kind of lame that you can on a meta-level foresee which enemy is going to play dead honestly

brisk flax
#

players already treat scanning the way cats treat going to the vet's office

#

I think there's a fundamentally understandable impulse that GMs have to want players to be surprised by stuff in an aspirational sense, but I think that given the absolute paucity of "players wlling to scan" in lancer, a thing that really only appears to have changed with the introduction of the chomolungma and nothing else, that you're still going to see more surprises than not simply on the back of "nobody wants to do the thing that spoils the surprise"

ancient forge
#

Learning about nasty surprises before they happen has historically been good for teaching my players that scanning is good. Both when they actually scan and when they don’t and I blindside them

brisk flax
#

you could make the "but it ruins the surprise" argument for parting gift as well, for example, which turns things into a case of "well just don't be within the burst radius" and that's that

opal folio
#

i felt the same way about NHP copilot but i really like your reinterpretation of it as 'the Operator does Operator shit so you can be open about that being their deal'

brisk flax
#

feign death still requires players A). scan to learn about it beforehand, and B). even if they know about it, they still need to deal damage to the downed vet to finish them which is one amount of damage that isn't going somewhere else

#

"1/scene when this NPC would be destroyed, they're instead reduced to 1 HP"

#

fundamentally that's what feign death is, as a trait

opal folio
#

yeah you could rework it as 'death defiance' rather than 'feign death' and have it fit better thematically i suppose. the systems check stuff feels totally pointless though cause like, you can just shoot the wreck if you know they have the trait

ancient forge
#

Even when my players are scanning, they’re usually not scanning everything

opal folio
#

this is also extremely evil given the rebaked sniper's 'move or die' optional, i love it

image.png
neon blaze
#

oh wow just in time

plucky robin
#

Oh no, the laser pointer!

neon blaze
#

i might need to swap out some of my encounter notes and use this version of Vet stuff instead

rose hamlet
#

Stebb & co. Have some work cut out for them, but luckily they’re all traits so it should be mostly copy/paste

neon blaze
#

I will say as an off-hand - glad Commando stayed, tbh

#

I think that was one of the most compelling of the original bunch too just for emphasising an aspect of the NPC that otherwise doesn't see much use outside of dire situations

brisk flax
#

like the assault rebake itself, commando is the trait that kicked off the revised veteran template project, so it felt fitting to keep it

neon blaze
#

I think ironically the only one to give me pause is the Demolisher optional - Burst 3 difficult terrain, passively, on a Size 2 character is a lot of potential area to cover. i might have to find an excuse to test that one more thoroughly

plucky robin
#

It's a lot of area but it's a very reactive sorta area due to the Demolisher's own mobility issues.

brisk flax
rose hamlet
#

I’m here for it, though it may have anti-synergy with the rebaked demo hammer knockback since apparently involuntary movement is affected by difficult terrain

brisk flax
#

but the thought in general was "this guy is slow"

#

I wouldn't mind it getting tested

neon blaze
#

yeah I think the framework of it fits really well for what the Demolisher wants and how it acts

brisk flax
#

I mean I say that, yes I want this stuff tested

plucky robin
brisk flax
#

please break my stuff

#

also of consideration is the difficult terrain isn't hostile-only

#

so you do want to be a little mindful of how you're playing around it as the GM

rose hamlet
#

(I frequently include workarounds for that in my own stuff)

plucky patrol
#

I'm liking a lot of this, but I gotta say not having a mobility option in the generic features does feel a little lame

#

I get that just slapping acrobat on anything kinda slow wasn't the most healthy

brisk flax
rose hamlet
#

I think it’s reasonable to not have a mobility patch for anyone who wants it yeah

plucky patrol
#

thats fair yeah

plucky robin
#

I think Acrobat ended up kinda just Always The Best too often.

plucky patrol
#

honestly that is something I might just patch back in when I use, though much less potent than acrobat

brisk flax
#

this was talked about in another channel and a while back so it's fair that not everyone may have been there for that, but I am very aware of acrobat and think it sucks

plucky robin
#

I think the non-action focus of Acrobat was a big thing.

plucky patrol
#

because I can certainly agree that it often does too much as is

plucky robin
#

It just kinda Makes You Passively Better.

#

I could see an active ability for mobility.

#

Something where you get like a Super Boost Jetpack or a Disposable Teleporter.

plucky patrol
#

I'm thinking I might just test acrobat but for boost only

brisk flax
#

I also think that even though the various elements of this project can be (by design) used independently, it really needs to be taken in context with the rest of the changes

plucky patrol
#

maybe tack on boost-flight to that too

#

just to see if that fills the niche I'm looking for in my own game

brisk flax
#

The rebake demolisher HAS a movement ability built into it. Pyros have expanded range on their abilities and Explosive Jets can be auto-recharged

opal folio
#

honestly you could give an npc a trait that exactly replicates the PC's jump jets and it'd be fine?

brisk flax
#

Scouts now have a movement granting ability in their optionals

#

AND an additional movement granting Veteran trait on top of that

#

Bastions have Stack Up

#

etc

plucky patrol
#

oh huh

brisk flax
#

yeah

plucky patrol
#

I'm realizing Demo's Jet Propulsion isn't a recharge

#

that does help

brisk flax
#

My thing isn't "I hate movement," my thing is "acrobat is a bad way to do it, specifically"

#

if I'm being honest, I also think that there's too much low to no cost PC-side movement facilitation as well that I wouldn't mind seeing get an axe, but that's outside the context of what I'm doing here

#

low mobility should be a thing that actually carries some tactical consequences, and while I acknowledge that NPCs can't just put more points in Agility, I don't think the solution to demolishers and pyros is to have a no-effort way to turn them into speed 5 pseudo-flying units

plucky robin
#

I do think that players should be incentivised to Put Points In Agility if they want to Get Faster.

brisk flax
#

so with killing acrobat, I tried to sprinkle some additional movement options throughout the rest of the rebaked NPCs in ways I felt were less "whatever"

plucky patrol
#

tbf I do think a lot of players severely discount just how helpful agility investment is even when other cheap mobility options exist

brisk flax
#

yeah that's why I think some PC-side stuff could stand to get dumped as well

plucky robin
#

I could see more situational movement being put in. Less 'When I skirmish, the thing I'll always do, get some movement' and more like 'Hey, I can recall back to the space I started my turn in at the end of the turn'.

brisk flax
#

NPCs don't have that sort of choice to go on, but acrobat stands out as an especially annoying trait to have in the pool especially with the way the veteran trait scales and so few other competing options exist alongside it

plucky robin
#

Or 'Hey, I can get some extra movement...if it puts me next to an ally'

brisk flax
#

by Tier 2, there's no reason to ever not have All Acrobat Demolishers whenever you include one in an opfor

plucky patrol
#

like I very frequently play builds that have boosting every turn as a core gameplan (RMJs my beloved), and I'm still slamming 2 agi minimum on every one

plucky robin
#

Stuff where the gameplan for movement can be set up and disrupted.

plucky patrol
#

but yeah, I get ya about acrobat being too good

plucky robin
#

Something that ended up really popular in my NPCs was the Wingman, who has 'good' but not 'insane' mobility by default but has an Ally-Only Teleport.

On Your Six
Trait, Quick Action
The Wingman chooses an allied character in line of sight and flies to a free space within Range 3 of that allied character, moving so fast it counts as teleportation. The allied character gains 2/3/4 Overshield and is treated as having Soft Cover until the end of their next turn.
plucky patrol
#

thats probably something I'll tinker with if I find the mobility enhancements you've already added lacking once I get to use more than just your grunts

plucky robin
#

Where it's not General Mobility but mobility within a specific area that players can interact with

#

I hope I'm being remotely coherant about my thoughts on mobility?

plucky patrol
#

you're making sense to me at least

brisk flax
#

like 100% the hornet gets a bunch of ways to move around the map because that is in part the hornet's thing

#

templates are general purpose and that's where part of the Acrobat issue lies

plucky robin
#

Oh yeah, 100%

plucky patrol
#

oh, on another note related to the vet rebake specifically, I feel like aces don't really have great options if none of the players are flying

brisk flax
#

the reason I don't mind and in fact encourage the Demolisher/Mirage combo, overused though it may be, is because it's a combo specifically, it has built in counterplay factors like "kill the mirage"

plucky robin
#

'What if we shoot this fucker in the face' is always a good plan

plucky patrol
#

like, as cool as it is fluffwise, air superiority only does stuff if the players brought flight with them, and I'm looking at the general traits now and I can't see I really want to put any of them on an ace

#

Lightning Reflexes would be the obvious pick, but I feel like it leans too hard into what they're already doing to the point of me just not feeling good about making players fight that

#

and the other options all don't seem like they fit all that well with the Ace gameplan for one reason or another

plucky robin
#

...I could see Air Superiority punishing not just 'flight' but 'Extra Movement'. So like, Nelson extra movement or Lockbreaker.

#

Keeps the 'I am Faster Then You' theming.

brisk flax
#

Maybe, but that's kinda "Slowed" and there's already about as much +Slowed in the template as I feel like pushing

plucky patrol
#

I don't really have a suggestion for this even, but its just something I'm noting

brisk flax
#

I'll keep an eye on it

brisk flax
# 
System, Drone, Quick Action, Recharge 6+
Wolfound Missile (Size 1/2, HP 10/12/14, Evasion 10, E-Defense 10, Tags: Drone, Immunity to Prone and Immobilized).

The Ultra deploys the Wolfound Missile in an adjacent space and picks a target in Range 30 and line of sight. At the start of the Ultra’s turns the missile makes its own standard move, flying 4 spaces towards its target, 8 if the target has Lock On. It moves directly, maneuvering around cover and terrain if needed. When it collides with a character or reaches its target, it creates a Burst 2 explosion. Characters in the affected area must pass an Agility save or take 14/20/28 explosive damage. On a success, they take half damage.

Any hostile character that attempts to move a Wolfound Missile (i.e. with Knockback, push, pull, etc) must pass a contested Systems check against the Ultra. If they fail, the movement is ignored, and the missile immediately moves another 4 spaces towards its target (or 8 if they have Lock On).``` meanwhile
trail pivot
#

yeah. question actually (i've still seen gms rule on this either way) was the missile intended to detonate when it becomes adjacent to the target or when it would move into the target's space

brisk flax
#

how I have always ruled it is "reaching the target" means just getting adjacent to it, collision requires "you try to move it into the space of that thing"

#

that is, it's more generous when it comes to the actual target itself, if you want to detonate it on a different character then you need to put some oomph into it

#

otherwise the missile could be detonated by, idk, someone just walking next to it

#

there's an argument you could make based on PRv2 language that it should be "collision" in both cases

#

where the wording was just "when the missile collides with a character"

trail pivot
#

ive generally always perosnalyl ran it as "adjacent to intended target, or collides with anyone else"

brisk flax
#

yeah same

trail pivot
#

i know formy rebake, i just spelled it out in the missile text ahead of time to keep things simple

brisk flax
#

in terms of the rebake I'm not really sure how, if anything, I want to change it, or simply leave the CRB wording as it is and leave this to be a case of "I will leave it as presently ambiguous as it is and let various tables decide as they always have" because I'm not sure it makes a ton of difference

#

I suppose I could more strictly reword it

trail pivot
#

i think either works, i'd just always had played under so many rulings that i decided i'd just pick one for the sake of it more than anything else, felt like a good thing to settle

vale crescent
#

If ace shoots a target that can fly but is not flying. DO they still need to make the agi save to see if they can't fly in the next round?

fluid zodiac
carmine idol
#

Veteran Rebake is in

This has been added as an additional lcp to 1.13.0, so no other files have changed.
Unsure about formating on this one but this seemed easiest for the GM to use in C/C and Foundry - if you've a better idea, please do shout! o7

GitHub
Release 1.13.0 Feature Complete, Grunt's & Veteran Included! · Shte...

Huzzah! With this, all the base NPC's have been rebaked and thanks to tetra__ on Pilot.net, the Grunt rebake is done too!
Additionally, we now have the Veteran rebake present - if you've an...

#

Also @rose hamlet I missed your message until just now, happy to integrate this into one lcp if that works more cleanly 🫡

rose hamlet
carmine idol
#

Shall do 🫡

rose hamlet
#

the OLD veteran was core-compatible, the NEW veteran is not EDIT: Was wrong about this, my bad

#

so like, if you had the old one, sure make the Old one a separate LCP

but the New one should bundle with the Rebakes it was designed to work with

#

at least that's my .0002 manna

carmine idol
#

Tis done, will push it out in a release prolly by tonight o7

last blade
#

#1334655875679260692 message

rose hamlet
#

I personally prefer to not have multiple LCPs if I can avoid it, but that’s just me

last blade
#

yeah, am in the same boat there too

carmine idol
#

On that note, would people prefer the grunt rebake get rolled in too?

indigo oasis
brisk flax
#

So it's not contingent on the target flying when attacked

vale crescent
#

Ok, just wanted to double check

#

That makes it much more potent cos it turns off much more like hunter and such rather than just constant flight builds which from gming seem rather niche

indigo oasis
#

I forgot about additional effects like Hunter

#

If NPCs had more features like that Flak Launcher could be a lot more potent… also if it could target non-flying characters :/… it slows too so Hunter-likes wouldn’t even trigger anyway :(

rose hamlet
indigo oasis
#

Precedent is the best reason I can think of

carmine idol
#

Only the idea that some might only want to use certain bits of the rebake lot, which in as far as that people can just not use what they don't need :>

indigo oasis
#

If people already installed the old LCP, then keeping them separate allows them to be updated

#

Whereas rolling them together could cause some weird stuff in VTT’s in particular

rose hamlet
#

Which VTTs? Foundry would simply overwrite the old stuff with the same ID

indigo oasis
#

I’m not… an LCP expert, I shouldn’t be making statements like that actually :|

rose hamlet
#

I could see Comp/Con having trouble, but foundry at least would handle it gracefully

fluid zodiac
#

I've never had foundry handle it gracefully 🙃

#

Unless the overwrite is a new feature

rose hamlet
#

It’s part of the v11 release, and on v12 too

#

Premade NPCs don’t get overwritten, but the features/classes/templates/building blocks do

fluid zodiac
#

I'll give it another shot then. The last time I tried updating, it left old versions in place and only added new IDs. I thought that was in V11 but maybe it wasn't

rose hamlet
#

well, if it had new IDs, it won't overwrite, true

subtle nacelle
#

these rebakes have different id's for everything, class, templates, features, all of it

#

the idea is to not have clashes with core

rose hamlet
#

oh I mean "overwriting itself" not "overwriting core"

carmine idol
subtle nacelle
brisk flax
# 
Template Feature
At the start of the Ultra’s turn, they may clear one condition. If they do, they choose one; become Impaired until the end of their turn, take 5 energy damage that can't be reduced in any way, or instead of two quick actions or a full action during their turn, they may only take one quick action.```
```Superior Construction
Trait
When using Juggernaut, the Ultra may clear two conditions at a time instead of one. Different costs must be chosen for each condition cleared this way.

Superior Frame
Trait
When using Juggernaut, the Ultra may clear either Slowed or Immobilized by taking 4 heat instead of the usual costs.

Superior Reactor
Trait
While the Ultra is Exposed, all attacks against them are made with +1 Difficulty. Whenever the Ultra takes kinetic, explosive, or energy damage while Exposed, they clear Exposed immediately afterward and clear all heat.

Unstoppable 
Trait
The Ultra gains Immunity to Prone, and may ignore involuntary movement (Knockback, push, pull, etc) by taking 1 kinetic damage per point of movement ignored; this damage can't be reduced in any way.```
#

Presently, I'm looking at the Ultra template with regards to the various "immunity to [condition]" traits and working on a replacement framework for that stuff, as mentioned earlier

indigo oasis
#

Oh I love Superior Reactor <3

brisk flax
#

Given that this new version of Juggernaut already offers a variety of options for clearing conditions, something I'm starting to feel is that each condition/set of related conditions may not really need a "unique clear" associated trait. For instance, "Superior [whatever]" for Jammed, something I was playing with, feels a bit unnecessary if you can already do something like "turn jammed into impaired"

carmine idol
brisk flax
#

likewise, "turn stunned into lose-a-quick-action" is already a pretty good deal

#

Slowed/Immobilized and Forced Movement are things I think can merit their own unique carve-outs given lancer's emphasis on mobility and positioning

#

and then Superior Construction letting you clear two conditions at once serves as a catch-all for "but what if I want my ultra to be especially condition-proofed"

rose hamlet
#

yeah okay these slap

#

give me, the GM, my choice of poison

brisk flax
#

With self-damage serving as more of a spendable resource, I'm ACTUALLY debating whether I should have Resilient give more than +5 HP

indigo oasis
#

Idk if it’d be worth doing anything for Shred since most sources of shred are circumstance based (so clearing it would just reapply it), or ends at the end of the Juggernaut turn

subtle nacelle
#

finally, a counter to 3x Chomolungmas BCL'ing the ultra /jest

brisk flax
#

yeah the one immunity I'm okay with is prone immunity

indigo oasis
#

OOH- maybe for shred you could have something that allows Juggernaut to be used as a reaction to it?

#

… that doesn’t sound good actually

brisk flax
#

I think "immune to prone" isn't something that radically infringes upon too many playstyles

brisk flax
neon blaze
#

Atlas is sad but thats about as bad as it gets

indigo oasis
neon blaze
#

not really table-flipping

brisk flax
#

that at a certain point, if you already have a good spread of "pick your clear costs" that giving bespoke stuff for shredded etc kind of doesn't make a lot of sense

indigo oasis
#

Yeah Slow and Immobilize are probably the only ones that need alt cost features

neon blaze
#

I do have a question with Juggernaut on whether or not the intent is meant to be if the Ultra is already Impaired they can just choose to be Impaired again (mainly in regards to stuff like Frag Sig, being able to crunch Slowed and Impaired into Just Impaired for a longer duration)

brisk flax
neon blaze
#

gotchya

brisk flax
#

if someone has fragment signaled an ultra, they could already ditch slowed and just keep impaired

indigo oasis
brisk flax
#

and yeah

#

the self-impair off juggernaut lasts until the end of that turn, presumably the same duration as fragment signal's impair would last

indigo oasis
#

Impair seems to be the “easy fix” cost

neon blaze
#

oh, I did miss the exact wording there

#

but either way yeah, that makes sense to me

#

just wanted to double check in the end

indigo oasis
#

If it was longer than that you could easily impair an ultra for an entire combat… or force it to constantly brace/blow itself up

brisk flax
#

impair is the "easy cost" patch, though with accuracy being slightly downtuned in the rebake my hope is that it stands as a more impactful debuff

neon blaze
#

yeah on paper it seems like the obvious answer but in practice I imagine Impaired might hurt in a way that going "ah, fuck it" and taking 5 HP off is a compelling decision

#

just power through it

brisk flax
#

I expect the 5 damage and "one quick action" choices to be more situational, yeah

#

when you go "I want this turn to count"

neon blaze
#

it also depends on class heavily, I imagine

#

Goliath is taking the 5 HP rather readily compared to say, an Operator

#

so it covers a broad case of things

indigo oasis
#

And an Ultra support doesn’t care

neon blaze
#

the "weight" of each option, ultimately, changes depending on who the Ultra is

#

so yeah, maths out

vale crescent
#

Wait, how will ultras repair destroyed things now?

indigo oasis
brisk flax
#

Yeah I'm looking at how I want to handle that element of things

#

Either a separate trait, condensing some other stuff, etc

vale crescent
#

Probably a bad idea but I'm curious what Ultra class specific options would look like, like the veteran ones

opal folio
#

i do feel like ultras auto-repairing things and auto-curing statuses does incentivise cheesing turn orders a bit -- adding some cost to that is definitely warranted

errant needle
trail pivot
#

I had some for berserker

errant needle
#

I've contemplated poking at it, but I'm settling on just completing my first Lancer game to completion before I get ambitious. 😄

trail pivot
#

yeah first game is probably wise!

errant needle
#

But from a philosophical standpoint, if I was doing it, it'd be very much sort of a weird mirror to Kai's Rebake in the sense of "this guy is going to have a big boss fight target on his chest. What makes him more able to handle his class's typical weaknesses?"

brisk flax
#

I think "class specific ultra kit" is a perfectly fine and reasonable thing to try and do, but it would 100% be a lot of work and way more than I care to try and do

#

I think if you were going to do the Ultra in that fashion that it would, if anything, require even more work than the Veteran template because I'd think you'd need more extensive upgrades beyond "a new trait"

errant needle
#

Yeah, I was thinking more of a system or weapon kind of thing

#

and those are going to be much bigger balancing impact

brisk flax
#

like, part of the ultra template, rightly or wrongly, is creating notable "boss" type enemies

errant needle
#

One bit I've contemplated, which ironically the Rebake Engineer may play into

#

was cross-classing their turrets and mobile turrets function into a beefier body

#

for the "Gundam with remote bits" fantasy

#

Just off the core book options, I feel the Hellfire Projector on an Ultra Bombard is kinda in the same space

#

the typical response for a Bombard is run into its face and stab it

#

except mr. Ultra Bombard proceeds to refer you to his flamethrower.

#

It's not completely invalidating "run up and stab him" as a strategy to deal with him

#

but it is going to make it spicier and more memorable

#

To a degree, I feel like "boss fight" Ultras may not be necessarily any more difficult, beyond typical Ultra longevity

#

but you'd want something that makes them memorable outside the norm.

#

Ironically, I think Kiros in Solstice Dawn is actually a really good example, even if he can be trivialized if you have the right options

#

But players are going to remember the first time that short-cycle lance goes off for a long time

#

I was actually just discussing the Ultra template bit above with the Ultra Exposed status auto-clearing after the first time you get a hit on it being really similar, with that feeling of "okay, the boss's defenses are lowered, hit him for the big damage!"

#

And then going back into the loop to weakn him again (or just mulch him)

trim field
#

1111111111111133............0..

#

.

#

..0..

brisk flax
#

same

subtle nacelle
#

finally, someone said it

trim field
#

I'm very sorry, while I was preparing lunch, my daughter seemed to have touched my keyboard

surreal zenith
#

she speaks truth and wisdom

trim field
#

I really wish I had that kind of wisdom😭

opal folio
#

The rebaked sentinels are absolute rockstars. On knife-fight sitreps like holdout two of them can control half the map

opal folio
#

btw, for Sniper's Mark, am I correct in thinking that 'in cover' refers to either 'adjacent to hard cover' or 'inside a zone of soft cover' only?

#

or does it require a completely free shot to benefit from the 1 structure shot?

carmine idol
#

I believe in cover refers to "the shots final accuracy is affected by either soft or hard cover penalties", not nessecarily just zone of soft/adjacent to object it terrain.

#

Bear in mind a unit is treated as having soft cover when firing over terrain/object of equal height to both itself and it's target, that the target isn't next to.

wheat mortar
#

I scrolled through and did not see the question answered, for those that have used the rebakes would you say that they are more challenging for players new to the system? Or do the fact that their focused concept enables the players to better react once they understand?

rose hamlet
#

The rebake Assault feels like a much better “new player teaching tool” with its emphasis on cover

wheat mortar
#

the Assault, Bastion, and Grunt rebakes really interest me but will use the rainmaker, hive, sentinal, support, and assassin tomorrow

#

this discord takes some time to actually understand what all is here, it is massive

rose hamlet
#

Rainmaker also got simplified with only One Zone instead of Three Spots

#

Assassin basically was unchanged in base kit, because assassin is just so damn solid

#

Hive’s base kit was also mostly unchanged iirc? Just matching some weapon/sensor ranges. Maybe razor swarms got tweaked slightly

#

Sentinel is much less of a pushover now, which honestly I think is good. It teaches “Overwatch can hurt you if you aren’t careful”

wheat mortar
#

Yea I'm really excited to use Assassin and Sentinel, the Assassin is one of my favorite NPCs i just love the jumping and ability to easily interact with verticality

rose hamlet
#

My advice is to pick up the LCPs or PDFs for the rebakes and compare/contrast

wheat mortar
#

yep doing the .pdf analysis now. thanks!

vale crescent
#

It's not recharge, automatically has motile swarm but can only have 1 at a time

#

Otherwise it's similar

#

My friend who has started running the rebaked NPCs with her campaign that we're in session 3 of I think is having a good time. Against new players too

#

I will try and ask her to do a write up here

wheat mortar
#

thank you

#

i assume that a tighter core identity and focus on interactiveness will always be positive for new players but I know some of these threads emphasis challenge/complexity so wanted to be sure. Don't want to all of a sudden ramp up difficulty

vale crescent
#

My "Playtest" """feedback""":

  • Assaults feel like they have an identity outside of "I miss and you die"
  • Rainmakers deserved to eat shit (Not actually played with them yet... I just wanted to say this)
  • Hives are no longer as funny but that's probably for the best
  • Sentinels are scary
  • Breachers feel like they have more of a presence. I was actually surprised when they had no armour. A Striker with no armour, not many defensive options outside of "being a problem" and being a relatively good hitpoint sack is kinda nice... It's good for a lot of attacks to not be wasted to nothing because 1 pip of armour said so
  • Ronins don't feel either trivial or super deadly with no inbetween and actually feel good untemplated at T1
  • Demolishers are scary with the big boost attack
  • Supports Mule harness is fun and really useful. Especially in combination with a demolisher with the big boost attack
wheat mortar
#

The first time my players encounter breachers my rolls were so lucky that they are absolutely terrified of them

vale crescent
#

Yeah

#

We had a breacher double tap evasion 8 with 4 difficulty

wheat mortar
#

The Desant Hardpoints?

vale crescent
#

Yes

#

I forgor the name and it's basically mule harness so I called it mule harness

#

OH

wheat mortar
#

I was just like "pog i can put the rainmaker on that"

vale crescent
#

SUPPORTS AS 5 SPEED

#

HARDLY NOTICE AT FIRST BUT REAL FUCKING GOOD

wheat mortar
#

true a 1 point increase is huge

vale crescent
#

Especially on a healer

wheat mortar
#

can keep pace with some of the other 5 speeds like the aforementioned Sentinel

rose hamlet
#

Its biggest for speed 3 and 4, as 33% and 25% increases respectively (turning those gains into action economy)

vale crescent
#

Gets wack with elites mounted on regular supports tho

#

Encounter idea:
Ultra support:

  • Lead the charge
  • Desant hardpoints
  • Argus armour
  • Immovable or superior frame or something I forgor the name

The rest of the sitrep is just regular demolishers

#

Spends the entire time just running back and forth piggy backingg demolishers to the players

brittle cipher
carmine idol
#

On the note of supports, last session @pulsar hound put us against a vet flier support with mule harness carrying a vet rainmaker around the map

#

that was a... unique kind of hell

brisk flax
#

That is to say, this isn't really "new NPCs 2.0, now for Iron Man Hardcore players"

#

fundamentally my goals here are to refine the NPCs along lines I consider more focused on specific identifiable gameplay elements/loops, and this takes a variety of forms, including trading out what I consider unfitting/redundant abilities for new ones, baking in more specific sorts of focused mechanics, that sort of thing, along with other orthogonal goals like reassessing how Reliable damage is assigned among NPCs, shaving down extraneous levels of to-hit accuracy (a thing Tom has even remarked on in the past), etc

#

This is less about "these NPCs are stale and I want a new challenge" so much as "I think these NPCs could be better tuned, and in doing so be easier for GMs to assess and utilize, and I'm going to put my money where my mouth is"

#

SOME of it, like the veteran template, is me straight-up going "I think this bit sucks and I would replace it wholesale"

#

I think in certain cases, NPCs are if anything more likely to be "nerfed" rather than buffed

#

for example, and pretty notably, the Rainmaker is an NPC that I specifically revised to remove the extremely basic and perfunctory damage combo of Missile Pod knockback into Javelin Rockets that makes them such a "be careful with this guy" NPC

#

likewise, the Assault rebake directly lowers their baseline accuracy and removes Reliable from their weapon, they do get other stuff to compensate, but a CRB Assault is a much more directly straightforward and straightforwardly effective "shoot guys with a gun" unit

#

some NPCs probably did receive what work out to be buffs, like Sentinels and Breachers, but the intent there is less "I want to make these guys super powerful" and more identifying what I feel are weaknesses of the CRB implementations and shoring them up

#

even then, there are some tradeoffs...Breachers got bigger, some of their optionals (like Painmaker) got buffed, etc, but the shotguns themselves had both a slight damage nerf as well as a hard-capped "can't attack with overall Accuracy" clause

#

Sentinels might be one of the rebake's biggest overall "just kinda got buffed some" NPCs

indigo oasis
#

Pretty sure Demolishers got nothing but buffs tbh. That’s one I’d need to play around with- the damage increase on the hammer is definitely something that raises an eyebrow to me

brisk flax
#

why is the baseline demolition hammer 10/14/16, a four point jump between Tier 1 and 2 and then a two point jump between Tier 2-3

indigo oasis
#

That is pretty weird now that you point it out hm. Tangential topic but ultimately not a comment on the rebake, it’s been weird to me that the Demolition Hammer is AP

brisk flax
#

12 damage is higher than the sniper, the sniper also gets range 20 and isn't swinging with baseline difficulty at threat 2

indigo oasis
#

Tru, even if the Sniper has difficulty the accuracy makes up for it

brisk flax
#

The Demolisher also lost Dig In, a source of generalized resistance, in place of +5 HP, so it's up to you to decide if that's a sidegrade or a nerf (there are arguments to be made either way) and while it gained a new attack, it also lost things like Broad-Sweep Haft, Sap (a source of stun), and the frankly absurd Concussion Missiles optional

indigo oasis
#

Oh shock armor is just fully dead, I didn’t notice

#

Probably for the best lol

brisk flax
#

No, it has shock armor

indigo oasis
#

Oops dig in is what died, I can’t read

brisk flax
#

it lost Dig In, which is the equivalent of the Assault's Hunker Down, yeah

indigo oasis
#

Fair, reduce redundancies

#

Shock Armor could still be debated if it should go or not, but at least just having that instead of Shock armor and dig in is probably good

brisk flax
#

I like Shock Armor on the Demolisher because it provides an interesting sort of inverse Siege Armor challenge to dealing with them

indigo oasis
#

Tru tru

brisk flax
#

Demolishers are point contesters, their main attribute in a tactical sense is "sitting on a place the players want to go"

#

you can stand back and shoot them, but that's time being wasted Not Getting On The Point

#

if you DO move into the Demolisher's zone with an aim towards contesting them, like trying to keep them from scoring on control points, then Shock Armor makes it harder to handle them up close with melee attacks, something you might expect from someone willing to charge into close contact

indigo oasis
#

It also reinforces a sort of “doesn’t play fair” vibe of the Demolisher (a not fully true statement but fits the vibes imo). It’s one of the few NPCs with at will access to Stun, and unlike Witch there’s no buildup, it just needs to hit you and you need to fail a save. Being blanket resistant to main weapons further builds on that vibe

#

But as long as you don’t let it play by its rules, you’re fine

#

Stay out of melee, use heavies and the strongest auxes you can sling, hack- stuff like that

#

Wait Petrify isn’t a base Witch feature

#

Yeah I think it’s the only NPC with stun built into the base kit

#

So yeah it definitely frames the Demolisher as a “mean” NPC, even though it’s not too difficult to work around it’s threats and defenses

rose hamlet
indigo oasis
brisk flax
#

demolisher in the rebake is the one guy who gets a baseline stun

brisk flax
#

notes: it's the ultra template, it's full of stuff

#

weirdly, this didn't take me quite as long as I thought it might once I got into the swing of things, whether this means I stuck the landing remains to be seen

rose hamlet
#

bet

brisk flax
#

I've already previewed how I feel regarding the various "immunity to X" traits and that remains largely unchanged, what comes on top of this is the inclusion of a number of new systems specifically designed to give Ultras more than just guns and toughness

#

There are a number of tech systems and support oriented abilities for those that want them, as well as an expanded selection of Ultra specific weapons

vale crescent
#

OOH ULTRA SUPPORT SYSTEMS!!! 🔥

#

Aceso flock looks sick

rose hamlet
#

are you down to accept formatting/typo suggestions?

brisk flax
#

typos yes, formatting bearing in mind this is all pre-layout stuff

rose hamlet
#

yes of course

neon blaze
#

its far down the pipeline at this point but I'm definitely tempted to give the Ultra template a shot during my up and coming Hell's Heart

#

see if I can't wrangle something to test

rose hamlet
#

For Juggernaut:

  • Typo: "If they do, they choose one;" should probably have a colon instead of semicolon
  • Formatting suggestion: I think a bulleted list would be easier to read the options
brisk flax
#

might be

rose hamlet
#

otherwise, conceptually I'm digging Juggernaut and Auto-Repair

#

I am only 4 optionals in and I'm already loving it

#

feels like setpiece boss mechanics for sure, and I'm glad to see dedicated Support and Control options present

#

like, that's honestly the big issue with Bosses in TTRPGs: Better Action Quantity will only take you so far. But Action quality is an axis that tends to get overlooked in Lancer

#

so when you get stuff like H0R_OS v?? Puppet Crasher, that's the sort of loaded action quality an Ultra really needs IMHO

#

so yes, I'm 100% here for this

#

Replacing Resilient instead of modifying Reinforced for Slivershielding is good Quality of Life lol nvm was thinking Evasive, that's already in core

#

Replacing Resilient for Siege Shield is a reasonable change though

neon blaze
#

... Puppet Crasher is giving me some mean ideas, that much is certain. that and Sidereal Realignment

#

"gee i wonder what enviornmental effect would really benefit from forced movement optionals"

rose hamlet
#

Charging up the SCL seems like a healthy change too

vale crescent
#

Big attack SCL 😎

neon blaze
#

yeah that one I approve of for both A: doing something similar for my Apex template and also B: not repeating the "3 SCL's in a row" incident

ancient forge
#

Yeah on a read that has a nice feel to it, like it'd be exciting to use

wise creek
vale crescent
#

Weapon repair is nice. And I love the new optionals which fit into the controller and support stuff

rose hamlet
#

Suppression Pulse as a Quick Action is surprising, seeing as I'd expect "effect even on miss" on a Full Action, even if it's Recharge 6+. Not saying it's unreasonable, just found it unexpected

vale crescent
#

IK This is a "See it in play" but as a glimpse orbital eye looks anti-climactic compared to the other abilities

ancient forge
#

Some of these, like Ontolotactical Array, look like they'd make some classes much more viable as ultras

rose hamlet
vale crescent
#

Fair

ancient forge
#

Granted I haven't looked at all the support-role rebakes, but that one in particular seems like it'd be real good on those

indigo oasis
#

How come Siege Shield now nixes Resilient but not Argus Armor?

vale crescent
#

Ultra support NPC would be fun... With Aceso flock, Ontotactical array and supreme logistics

brisk flax
#

it's unclear to me why Siege Shield, blanket Resist All to Everything outside of range 3, didn't already nix Resilient when "gain Resistance to 1 damage type" did

indigo oasis
#

Ooh Superior Construction got bonus HP

vale crescent
#

Adding Nova missiles as an ultra weapon after axing it from operator so that Colonel Sorvan Kiros stays legal /j

brisk flax
#

siege shield, slivershielding, superior shielding, etc, is all "this stuff just generally adds a permanent survival feature to the Ultra"

#

Argus Armor sort of exists in that ballpark, but Argus Armor breaks apart

#

and you can't get it back

rose hamlet
#

Supreme Logistics is nice: shifts it from a selfish repair into a support tool

brisk flax
#

so in terms of the role they fill, I feel they're distinct enough that I don't feel Argus Armor merits the same consideration in terms of balancing it out with Resilient

#

it's also, I think, much easier to bypass argus armor

#

anything with AP does it, plus Shredded etc, while Resistance stuff is Shredded only

vale crescent
indigo oasis
#

Huh. Follower Count got removed. Why is that?

brisk flax
#

Follower Count is a breacher system

indigo oasis
#

Lead the Charge

#

Yeah I keep getting the names mixed up

brisk flax
#

Lead the Charge is now Supreme Mobility

#

it works differently because I'm sick of Rapid Response existing like four different places at once

rose hamlet
#

this may be controversial, but I think you can be meaner on damage with Hyperdense Blade. I like it otherwise though

brisk flax
#

you get less movement (1/turn boost instead of unlimited reaction boost) but it has ally-facilitating functionality now

indigo oasis
#

That’s valid- tho Lead the Charge is pretty fundamentally different being able to be used an unlimited number of times as a reaction. I can see how there could be issues with that, but I personally liked the fact it acted as a persistent wildcard to every players turn

#

Personally speaking I mean- again I see the logic and don’t disagree

vale crescent
rose hamlet
brisk flax
#

my take is if you want a reactive boosting ultra that you should make an ultra out of one of the NPCs with something like that

vale crescent
#

Especially with deadly, as deadly will be doubled too

brisk flax
#

like an Archer or Sentinel etc

vale crescent
brisk flax
#

but as a general ultra trait I found it both very boring and also "this is actually too much movement in a way I often find myself not doing anything useful with"

rose hamlet
#

Hellfire Projector is right there above it, hitting more targets for more baseline damage. So idk

vale crescent
#

Fair

rose hamlet
#

all that said, I did say my take may be controversial lol

vale crescent
#

I'm just... Curious how the doubled would go, because on a crit it's an average +7 damage

brisk flax
#

re: hyperdense blade, it's possible it could be tweaked some more, with +1d6 damage on crits, proning, and an additional attack if you crit, I erred a bit on the side of not giving it a big damage number out of the gate

vale crescent
#

Yeah

neon blaze
#

applying to the Crit bonus damage is the big thing there yeah

rose hamlet
#

I just know that it's still Melee, which makes it committal

#

threat 2 notwithstanding

neon blaze
#

but simulatenously I do agree that the default profile does feel like it could use a bit of love somehow

vale crescent
#

And the double damage + accuracy isn't too hard to trigger in the first place

neon blaze
#

maybe even if just in terms of tags

vale crescent
#

Immobilise as a protocol, if you're already in a good spot you can pop off with 10 damage skirmishes every turn (and overwatches)

#

It's almost as good damage as a demo hammer without the downsides of a Sheavy

rose hamlet
#

IMO Range tends to be underaccounted for in power budget in baseline lancer, but that's me (as in, I feel the range-to-damage tradeoff ratio should be steeper)

vale crescent
rose hamlet
#

so, anyway, that's enough feedback from me before using it

rose hamlet
ancient forge
#

New unstoppable really makes me want to fight an ultra with a d/d 288

brisk flax
vale crescent
# rose hamlet yes

eh, I already feel melee is just VERY GOOD in terms of damage compared to range options...

brisk flax
#

an assault rifle does 1d6 damage, a tac melee weapon does 1d6+2 damage, to give a very simplistic breakdown

vale crescent
#

Yeah IK, but I personally don't feel it needingg to be steeper

strange rock
#

oh supreme melee now only gives a free ram or grapple and no melee attack
thank god
and counting as 1 size larger for grapple and more knockback distance is neat

rose hamlet
ancient forge
#

Overall I'm getting a vibe that you can stick more stuff on ultras that feels like the kinda funky stuff player builds can pull off, but easier to manage

rose hamlet
#

I like the Mini Railgun's "ignore ordnance for heat" tradeoff

indigo oasis
rose hamlet
#

sees the name "Wraith Nexus" oh. ohohohohoho

indigo oasis
#

I am glad each of the weapon types got an Ultra weapon.

#

And that Nova Missiles got saved

rose hamlet
#

Okay Wraith Nexus is neat, but I think that you can actually have it work without a crit and still be reasonable

#

(this is my Centimane bias speaking though)

indigo oasis
#

At a glance I do think Nova Missiles could afford to be a bit more funky imo

#

But that’s just at a glance, would need to test it

rose hamlet
vale crescent
#

Nova missiles would be cracked on a bombard tho

indigo oasis
indigo oasis
vale crescent
#

tru

rose hamlet
indigo oasis
#

But Hellfire Projector kind of acts as the defacto Ultra Burn weapon, so I’m not entirely sure why Wraith Nexus is a Burn weapon. Swapping out the damage types could be a way to give the weapon some more budget

vale crescent
#

Oooh

rose hamlet
#

I mean, it's just AP damage with a chance of some extra damage

indigo oasis
#

Focus more on doing it’s one gimmick and avoiding dipping into multiple

vale crescent
#

Pyro with a wraith nexus 👀

indigo oasis
#

That’s also fair

indigo oasis
brisk flax
#

I'm not sure I really count the nexus weapon's burn as, like, a major major factor in its design in terms of budget

wheat mortar
#

Thank you for the clarification

brisk flax
#

NPC nexus weapons tend to do burn

indigo oasis
#

That makes me wonder- How many NPC nexuses are there actually?

brisk flax
#

just sort of a thing, not that it has to be cleaved to but, like, I could make it do explosive or energy damage but I don't think that really matters much

indigo oasis
rose hamlet
brisk flax
#

The MBT has a nexus secondary weapon, the Marker Nexus

vale crescent
#

Hive has both, scanning nexus and the main weapon

indigo oasis
#

At the very least the Crit Gating likely needs some testing- it’s a roadblock I doubt is necessary but would need to test to prove

rose hamlet
#

ah, so it does, my mistake

vale crescent
#

I was looking forward to looking at hive and seeing that the seeker cloud is actually straight up just a main cannon

#

Alas it is not 😔

indigo oasis
rose hamlet
#

Seeker Cloud is kinetic yes

indigo oasis
#

Yep- it’s kinetic

brisk flax
#

anyway, this is now the final part of this project

#

with the ultra template in shippable, if not final, form, this is now in the state of "I will probably not be adding more stuff"

#

If you want to playtest any of this
1). great, thank you
2). I would try to do so sooner rather than later, because now that it's done, I would like to give serious thought to publication

#

I don't plan to rush it out the door in a week or whatever, but in general I would like to not spend a year doing playtesting either as I have done for many other projects

wheat mortar
#

Is the Veteran rebake somewhere else?

brisk flax
#

but I believe it's incorporated into the lcp

wheat mortar
#

also using Ultra rebake on The Furies with Short Cycle Lance and Volley Module

#

thank you

#

also, is the rebake scourer's thermal lance intended not to generate heat on the scourer?

brisk flax
#

no it should still do 4 self heat per attack

rose hamlet
#

Might be an lcp or pdf typo if missing

wheat mortar
#

makes sense, other than the rebaked elite, veteran, and grunt the other templates remain as in the core?

#

im refering to the .pdfs for what it's worth

brisk flax
#

yeah I'm not interested in messing with other templates

#

I have thoughts on stuff like "yeah pirate is kind of jank" but not to the degree I feel like actually doing remade versions

ebon trenchBOT
#

I will probably be running these rebakes as opposed to standard npcs in our OSR/WS game

Kai Tave, Killswitch Gremlin ↩️

[Reply to:](#1334655875679260692 message) If you want to playtest any of this
1). great, thank you
2). I would try to do so sooner rather than…

brisk flax
#

if I was going to do anything it might be "turn monstrosity into a template rather than a class" but also I am very lazy

indigo oasis
ebon trenchBOT
#

Would do it in our wallflower game but we are like halfway through it so its a lil late to introduce such a drastic change

indigo oasis
brisk flax
#

exotic is another template I feel could get massively overhauled for what it's worth

viral wadi
#

Since it's essentially all optionals anyways.

neon blaze
#

I avoid Exotic like the plague because of Xenotech tbh, but the entire thing just has always felt like "gotchya, the template"

#

its very experimental and it shows

rose hamlet
#

But my bias is “I’m already making my prototype NPC stuff, by making them their own classes, the name is right there on the tin”

vale crescent
rose hamlet
vale crescent
#

Aye fair

rose hamlet
#

Like I’m talking the mechanics that have pilots lose their memories/rewrite their history

#

You could have non-Aunics do that, sure, but that sounds like an actual “exotic” thing to do

vale crescent
#

But if revamping exotic, I don't see an issue with the name exotic but I do with the name aunic. But it can be skipped by just "ignoring it". Like,

brisk flax
#

my issue with exotic more than anything is it's just boring

vale crescent
#

Real

brisk flax
#

it's a pretty small template and its pool of options is largely "whatever"

vale crescent
#

I love my:

  • Cannot be hacked
  • Deals half damage, takes half damage so it can tank more IG
  • Reroll dice when you remember it has the trait
  • Oh neat it can teleport
rose hamlet
#

Don’t forget regenerator!

#

Absolute grab bag

vale crescent
#

Oh I forgot that because my players always have an energy weapon

neon blaze
#

its a lot of bullshit the first time around and its just tiring the second and third

rose hamlet
#

Yeah. Maybe if I’m feeling inspired I’ll go read the Aunic drafts and see if I can’t synthesize something in PPG

vale crescent
#

Exotic is just... neat... Nothing more

neon blaze
vale crescent
#

Exotic feels like it should do MORE, like... The fact pirate systems do more is wack. This mech is made to be wack!

vale crescent
neon blaze
#

the line 10 "make 1d6+4 attacks" gun

vale crescent
#

Wot

rose hamlet
#

I’ll skip that one lol

vale crescent
#

HUH

neon blaze
#

the aunic field guide draft with actual NPC equipment was just wild, dunno what to say

#

we let miguel cook once and it was terrifying

vale crescent
#

Real

#

POWER WORD KILL

rose hamlet
#

Okay yeah that could be fun, gonna speculate on that in PPG in a sec

vale crescent
#

I remember readingg them and thinking

#

"HOW THE FUCK IS POWER WORD KILL THE MOST TAME!!!"

neon blaze
#

also Ultra Apex Marine Commander Cataphract welcome to the team

#

you have apparently changed a whole "not at all really"

#

unfortunately the pace my game has been going i'll be lucky to actually give them a whirl in like, a month

#

just unfortunate issues with scheduling

opal folio
brisk flax
#

like, I'm probably going to have a window for soliciting feedback that lasts a number of months

opal folio
#

'you get regenerating hp, also pseudo-intangible, also you can force rerolls, also you can teleport'

brisk flax
#

I just don't want to be like "yeah I may publish this in, idk, a year+ from now"

neon blaze
#

fair enough

brisk flax
#

I think that what's on offer here isn't so dramatically different from what exists that it should need that much of a shakedown as opposed to, like, "here's a bunch of totally brand new content"

#

"here's an entirely new game"

#

etc

#

I would absolutely love it if people put this stuff to the test, but I don't think the changes I've made are so radically transformative that it's flipped everything on its head

#

(I also have my own changelog I'm working with but I don't want to dump it on the lcp team right now, they probably have enough work ahead of them)

neon blaze
#

i'm mainly just running the Veteran stuff (which ironically hasn't changed much, for the NPCs i've got coming up so far) and then the Ultra here

#

the NPC rebakes are something i wanna futz with but not something i want to like, swap mid-campaign

#

just because that'd fuck with people i think

rose hamlet
#

Imo I’d say to run it past the players, if that’s the concern

neon blaze
#

less a concern and more a formality, especially since two of the players are relatively new

#

and thus still kinda leaning what NPCs even can and can't do

#

i've been using the alt veterans since the campaign start though so thats free game

#

and the ultra i used before was wild enough that they probably won't notice the difference too much

#

Ultra Ship Sniper x1 - Superior Maintainance, Devestator, Deadmetal Rounds, Selective Loader, Shroud Charge, Favors Owed was an event

brisk flax
#

yeah to be clear nobody should feel pressured or anything

indigo oasis
#

Just a small analysis about the rebake, not a suggestion… yet- but looking through the Big Boss Features:

there are 3 Rebake Ultra features thus far that have a big countdown mechanic: SCL, Argus Armor, and Ontolotactical Array. You could maybe argue Wolfhound Missile too but I won’t.

SCL gives artillery vibes, Argus Armor gives Defender Vibes, and Ontolotactical Array gives Support Vibes.

Would it be an interesting idea to add a fourth or fifth big countdown mechanic based around Controller and Striker?

Perhaps something similar to the Manticore Core Power of taking X hits before detonating, but perpetual- acting as a very general “you can attack this ultra but watch out.” In terms of being impactful enough to be on an Ultra but not so specific that it’s pretty much a class feature that… may just be the berserker… still, could potentially be interesting???

#

Point is those kinds of big countdown features are some of the most iconic ultra traits. We had one for “Defender” with Argus Armor, and with the rebake adjustments we have “Artillery” and “Support”. Could there potentially be more interesting mechanics that play off of that?

#

The main counter to that suggestion is that that starts stepping on other class’ toes- Petrify could easily be an Ultra Controller Countdown Feature for example

blissful lion
#

Ultra controller to me sounds very objective/sitrep dependent, so it could be a little difficult if it’s not just something simple like “take consequences if you’re in this zone”

indigo oasis
#

Yeah and Harbinger Rockets already implemented that

#

You could technically qualify that as controller

#

… what about stealing Jolly Rodger? Nope nevermind already there

blissful lion
#

That said, puppet systems 👀

indigo oasis
#

Puppet Systems isn’t something I’d classify as a countdown system personally

blissful lion
#

Oh right, just talking about control in general

#

I dunno if SCL is really a countdown one except that it has a recharge?

indigo oasis
#

Argus Armor prompts proactive players, SCL prompts player reactions, and Ontolotactical Array plays in the middle ground- there’s not really much more room to add another countdown feature that feels general enough for the Ultra

indigo oasis
blissful lion
#

Ah

indigo oasis
#

SRD Ultra just has Argus Armor in that respect

blissful lion
#

Haven’t peeped that one

neon blaze
indigo oasis
#

Tbh most of this discussion was prompted by “I love these countdown features, I wish there were more of them”

#

But yeah, there really aren’t many general niches left to build out more

neon blaze
#

could i suggest the (albeit work in progress) Apex for that

indigo oasis
#

Ye I got that one bookmarked

#

Apex is definitely a space where more niche features and gimmicks can be covered- I’m moreso just trying to math out what general niches would this rebake still want filled

#

But yeah Apex is badass, love ‘em!

neon blaze
#

one day i will knuckle down and do the remaining 5 cores but for now i've just been waiting to hear if they've broken anything yet

#

which is much the case with most of my homebrew

blissful lion
#

I wonder if you could do a countdown one where the ultra has a burst ability that grows over time, but that's kinda boring

neon blaze
#

if i havent' been yelled at yet i assume it just works

indigo oasis
#

None of these ultra features actually make the Ultra more dangerous over time, except Argus Armor when it reaches 0 armor and even that’s just consolation

#

It very much doesn’t evoke the iconic “phase 2” vibes you’d want

#

Either a feature that grows more potent the more damaged the ultra is or becomes active after reduced to 2 or less structure would be interesting

blissful lion
#

Maybe it's an energy barrier that slows people near them, but as they lose structure it also deals increasing damage as they get closer to 0

indigo oasis
#

… tho SCL and Ontolotactical do gain charges upon stress and structure

#

Tangentially- I’m surprised this Ultra has so few self heat features, no loading weapons/features, and no danger zone features

#

The base one didn’t either but they definitely would feel at home here.

I also didn’t notice Limitless was removed which… fair. Absolutely fair, I love it on Ultras but I support the decision

blissful lion
#

Limitless is the main heater-uper I believe

brisk flax
#

well wrong quote

#

but yeah

indigo oasis
#

… oops it wasn’t where I thought it was

#

I was looking under L but that was in systems

#

Nevermind

brisk flax
#

Anyway, I've done NPCs with growing aura type stuff before and it's interesting, I think there are some fun potential applications of it, but mainly the reason I add stuff is more "I have a good idea for a thing here" and less "I want to tick off boxes"

indigo oasis
#

Yeah I getcha, which is why I wanted to bring up the idea to outsource the idea coming up-ing

#

… that came out weird

brisk flax
#

well the thing about outsourcing ideas is that it's not really a thing I can do if I'm going to publish this

indigo oasis
#

You know what fair enough

#

Leave it to the realm of homebrewing on the homebrew

brisk flax
#

like there's a degree of spitballing that's fine, I don't need to be cloistered like a monk, but I can't be like "hey everybody, give me your cool ideas for a thing I will maybe charge money for"

indigo oasis
#

Still, now I’m thinking about more self heat ideas for the Ultra

#

NPCs don’t play with Danger Zone all that often

blissful lion
#

just flick everyone on pnet the royalties and she'll be right

blissful lion