#The NPC Rebake Project and NPC Tinkering Power Zone (NO MULTIATTACKERS ALLOWED)

1 messages · Page 2 of 1

trail pivot
#

plus i didnt like having to keep track of javelins for every rainmaker

brisk flax
#

"this artillery creates its own defense" wrong, go to jail

indigo oasis
#

Welp never mind then

rose hamlet
#

Tbh this is an example of how it feels like Lancer was playtested in dungeons more than open fields?

brisk flax
#

that is what other units are for

trail pivot
#

yeah i think of all the mechs that need defensive tools, the range 20 reliable arcing guy leads them the least

brisk flax
#

if you want your rainmaker to not die like a bastard, use other bodies

indigo oasis
#

Goodbye javelins, you probably won’t be missed

hollow steppe
#

As long as the Rainmaker can make it rain we'll be happy

orchid ledge
#

i say all this as a Combo© enjoyer, its fun, but it def flattens rainmaker's playstyle

brisk flax
#

speaking of other bodies that make life awful for the PCs

rose hamlet
#

I feel like making javelin into a single blast 1 would be more tenable than 3 individual spaces to get that “area denial” fantasy, aka mini atlas

brisk flax
orchid ledge
#

stinger range nerf right out the gate

indigo oasis
#

God the fact that Hornet at tier 1 has Evasion 16 still jars me.

#

It’s a base game thing I know. Just consistently catches me off guard

brisk flax
#

for me, part of the hornet should be "you have to get kinda close"

#

long range flying guy already exists in the ace

#

that's its whole deal

orchid ledge
#

woah umbral interdiction

#

interesting...

brisk flax
#

I get customization, but at a certain point I think there are good and bad ways to broaden an NPC's portfolio

rose hamlet
#

Base kit unchanged otherwise! I think that’s fair

brisk flax
#

range 5 hard cap means GMS pistols can't be kited

#

and yeah the base hornet kit is pretty good for what it does

#

I also didn't really change its stats, generally I tend to look askance at certain stats that never increase over time and HP is one of them, but I think the Hornet is one where I will make an exception because "doing the math on reliable damage it takes to kill these things" is, I feel, part of the package

indigo oasis
#

Supersonic’s new impair seems fun, tho the instant recharge is something I’m curious to play around with

orchid ledge
#

system spike is the best thing here

brisk flax
#

it's just "full action, teleport 50, no questions"

orchid ledge
#

thats gonna be nasty

rose hamlet
#

I like the risk/reward and extra impaired brought from the optionals, drives home that this thing lives to frustrate you to death

indigo oasis
brisk flax
#

yeah

#

so this version is basically driving towards the "get close to people" playstyle I want to encourage, sweetening the deal with a free Impair

indigo oasis
#

Ok well never mind then good change

brisk flax
#

you CAN just teleport 50 anywhere, but that's a more thoughtful decision

indigo oasis
#

Is Umbral Interdiction intended to trigger before the attack?

brisk flax
#

the trigger is "attempts an attack"

rose hamlet
#

I think the question to answer may be “okay what does this thing do when everyone is impaired” but I think Umbral answers it

brisk flax
orchid ledge
#

having something worsen impair by proximity is a very cool gimmick. im super into that one

brisk flax
#

your choices are "focus on making one person miserable" or "make a lot of people extra miserable"

indigo oasis
#

Good call to remove “Adapt/Evade/Disengage,” that one always felt redundant

orchid ledge
rose hamlet
orchid ledge
#

heat gun

rose hamlet
orchid ledge
#

yeah lmao

rose hamlet
#

Lockons

#

There we go

indigo oasis
#

When everyone is impaired I think Lock On and Hide are the things to do tbh

brisk flax
#

Slingshot exists to add some heat back into its optionals without HEX Missiles, and also to basically to make people very mad on objective maps

indigo oasis
#

Forced movement is always fun

brisk flax
#

It's not just forced movement is the key, you move them and then use their position as the axis for your own reposition

#

and it's ANY space within range 5 of them

#

so you can drag someone off a point, then swing around to being on the point yourself

indigo oasis
#

Fun!

#

oh I forgot Hornet’s speed scales with tier

rose hamlet
brisk flax
#

mmhm

rose hamlet
#

Hornet’s speed scaling makes sense; fast to faster to fastest

#

Unlike core Breacher of slow to neutral to brisk

indigo oasis
#

This hornet seems like as big of a bastard (positive) as the old one, but it’s a little more fair about how acts as one

rose hamlet
#

I’m here for it

brisk flax
#

umbral interdiction has always been a weird optional to me because it's a very powerful effect that's set as a check not a save in what I can only assume is an attempt at balancing out the effect by making the TN not scale, but that feels like a weird approach to me. "This thing is powerful but as you go up in tier/level you ignore it more" is a weird drop-off that I don't like, but also pinning it to the Hornet's save target feels like it would make it too good at just being a counterspell

#

hence why I reworked it the way I did

#

it's a little more gated in terms of "what can this do to just anyone"

orchid ledge
#

clever work around tbph

#

looks good, glad that not a whole lot changed other than a couple options

indigo oasis
#

I like how some of the optionals allow it to act as a more passive threat, emphasis the fact that Stinger Pistol has a threat range, while the rest focus on being an active threat. Makes it possible to build two different hornets both of which are very annoying, all while having a spectrum between

#

Tho I guess that’s just general hornet love.

#

I’d have to compare the CRD and rebake more closely

brisk flax
#

the stinger having threat has always been very funny to me, like

#

why are you putting your hornet into threat 3 of anyone, first of all

#

I kept it because why not, but I don't think I've ever had a stinger overwatch shot

indigo oasis
#

IMO you seem a lot more likely to trigger it with this rebake

rose hamlet
#

I’ve done it once! Or at least tried to

indigo oasis
#

Old Hornet never wanted to stay within range 5, this one does

orchid ledge
#

im just glad that you kept some heat gunning optionals

#

i got two superior by design players so i need that shit

brisk flax
#

yeah my dislike of hex missiles is less "I don't like heat on the hornet" and more "I think hex missiles are kind of a blunt way to do it"

#

just "oh yeah now this does AoE heat bombs every turn"

rose hamlet
#

Now, Hex Missiles on the Ace, on the other hand— gets shoved into bag

indigo oasis
indigo oasis
brisk flax
#

superior by design was a consideration when I was making this rebake, but my stance on it is A). it's unlikely everyone in the party will have it, and B). at the point SbD becomes extremely common in that regard, that's when you shift to things like Impale Systems, Lock/Hold Javelins, and Slingshot

indigo oasis
#

Yeah SBD is a good problem to have imo. It’s a core bonus, countering a decent portion of the Hornet’s kit is a good reward for it

#

And like you said, it can do other things regardless

rose hamlet
indigo oasis
#

Lancer in general is pretty good at being like “there’s a lot of counters, and not a lot of counters to counters, and that’s fine”

#

Your counter to Heavy Frame isn’t always gonna be “oh but I have something that bypasses it,” it’s often gonna be “well, time to do something else”

#

Which is good, counters should be rewarded, not trivialized

orchid ledge
#

agreed, counters should counter

pulsar hound
#

Just noticed Supersonic and System Spike affect all characters, not hostile characters - is that intended?

rose hamlet
#

Probably not but easily remedied at least

pulsar hound
#

The hornet being so annoying it impairs its own team is entirely on brand but thought I'd check

brisk flax
#

using allies as a fast travel point using supersonic will impair them, it's a tradeoff

indigo oasis
#

Hm, if that’s the case, one thing I’d keep an eye on during playtest is if range 5 is too big a range band. Sounds awkward to play around in theory, but since it’s a numbers thing you’d need to play and see

pulsar hound
#

Ah yeah it might be an idea to specify if it's a single target or not - going off wording I'd think it is but I might be wrong.

indigo oasis
#

I’m not gonna get a chance to run any hornets anytime soon tho so idk

pulsar hound
#

Still impairing allies is a decent cost for 50 movement

brisk flax
#

Ah, for supersonic?

pulsar hound
#

Yeah mb, I think it's one target in range 5 right?

brisk flax
#

Yeah it should be

indigo oasis
#

Ah I thought it was all characters

pulsar hound
#

Blast (11?) AOE impair good lord

indigo oasis
pulsar hound
#

Yeah that's a better way to put it.

indigo oasis
#

I’d probably add wording to describe how it resolves picking targets when there are multiple characters within range 5, remove confusion

#

Tbh idk how you’d resolve it as is, it’s a tad confusing

brisk flax
#

The Hornet flies to a space in line of sight and Range 50 so impossibly fast that it counts as teleportation. If they end this movement within Range 5 of another character, that character becomes Impaired until the end of their next turn and this ability automatically recharges; if multiple characters are within Range 5, the Hornet chooses one of them.

indigo oasis
# brisk flax I mean that's not too hard

Should’ve been specific, meant to say “reading the ability rn, if I ran it I’d be confused about how to resolve it.” Fixing it in the PDF is probably easy.

brisk flax
#

yeah that's a reasonable clarification point

#

system spike being as big as it is, though, is 100% intended, it's a large footprint, you wanna kill that guy

indigo oasis
#

Yeah everything else being a range 5 footprint is great

#

I just thought Supersonic hit all characters within range 5, which for no save is… a bit much

#

Only one tho? That’s innocent enough

rose hamlet
#

Yeah getting one guaranteed Impair plus some safe movement is fine on a Full Action

manic sky
#

Hornet's looking sick, hell yeah

brisk flax
#

okay the version with some clarifications is in the drive, so as usual that's the source to pull from

errant needle
# indigo oasis Burst 5 but yeah

Given the Hornet's design identity as "annoying", I just have the image of doing a one-off Hornet that actually uses this and his squadmates hate him.

#

"Bad news: all PCs in close proximity are impaired. Good news: all enemy NPCs are ALSO impaired, except for That Guy™️ "

indigo oasis
rose hamlet
#

Sonic booming right up to your eardrums

#

Alternatively: Surprise Zubat Encounter

prime urchin
#

To give my feedback before I look at the hornet, I was there for that once and I loved it ! The Combo is heinous, so getting rid of it is already very nice, but also, with the fairly small map we had and very cramped Point (two narrow corridors wer the only access points) allowed for the javelins to actually be fair, interesting and meaningful !

#

Axing them might still be the better choice, but I still wanted to get that out there

#

Hmm. Good stuff.
Especially like how the impaired on Supersonic gives a downside to Sunzi shenanigans

#

"Gonna stop me from escaping ? Get impaired about it. Idiot."

#

(Of course, that's only if you allowed a sunzi kidnapping Supersonic to work in the first place, but it's RAW so)

brisk flax
#

Yeah it would apply to the sunzi, they're a character, the movement ends within range 5

#

anyway this now puts me at five NPCs remaining

valid plaza
#

what's left?

brisk flax
#

Engineer, Mirage, Priest, Rainmaker, and Witch

manic sky
#

for reasons (pushing rz into a closet so they can't hear) I'd love to see a Witch

valid plaza
#

rude!

manic sky
#

lol

mighty granite
#

suldan VALKYRIE rebake to remove multiattack when /j

manic sky
#

I did at least see your fiddling with Petrify, Kai, it looked good

brisk flax
rose hamlet
#

oh huh that's 3 of the prominent tech attackers still to revisit

#

I don't envy you on the Mirage, that's for sure, but I'll look forward to seeing it since my god it cramps my brain to use them

brisk flax
#

I'm gonna be honest, Petrify might be one of the most weirdly and counterintuitively worded abilities in the entire NPC catalogue

#

like, you read it and think you know how it works, but it actually works not like how you would expect due to the weirdness of the timing on all of its stuff

rose hamlet
#

yeah, it slows them immediately, but then when they take their next turn they're Immobilized. And stabilizing it off doesn't stop the Stunned

brisk flax
#

and the stunned is also a "for that turn only" thing which, I mean, it's still a stun but it's very weird when stacked against other stuff like Sap or Stun Mines

#

just a real brain burner

# 
Petrify
System, Full Tech
+2/4/6
The Witch makes a tech attack against a character within Sensors. On a success, the target becomes Slowed until the end of their next turn. When Slowed expires, they then become Immobilized until the end of their next turn. When Immobilized expires, they then become Stunned until the end of their next turn. Clearing any of these conditions (e.g. with Stabilize) prevents further conditions from occurring on subsequent turns. 

This system can't be used again while it is currently in the process of affecting a character, and it can only be used 1/scene on each character.``` The version I'm working with currently looks like this
rose hamlet
#

so it's effectively "immobilize (in all but name) on hit, and then be stunned on the 2nd turn"

#

yeah no this looks completely reasonable

brisk flax
#

this is less about "oh I think this ability needs a change for gameplay reasons" and, like, 70% "this needs to be clearer to parse"

rose hamlet
#

this looks like how someone would expect it to look like (coming from D&D 4e for instance)

brisk flax
#

the witch is a weird one in general because it occupies a space as "the generic controller" of sorts which means it kind of gets a grab bag of stuff (predatory logic, blind, tear down, etc) just labeled "idk, Controller stuff"

#

broadly it has two primary uses, one is a harsh condition applier and the other is The Heatgunner

manic sky
#

I feel like if they came out in the same book, Witch would have a clearer identity versus Spite.

#

Spite is very much "oh you rely on heat build? well here's some heat also you can't clear it"

rose hamlet
#

tbh yeah I think my 2 "advanced paradigms" for Witch were literally "hard control" and "heat gun"

prime urchin
brisk flax
#

Spite is a heat-focused mech but it does so in a very particular way, which I think works well for an NPC to focus on, mainly interfering with the ability to comfortably rely on heat mechanics, while the witch is simply "fuck you, Dark Cloud"

#

that said, I do think the core roster having one mech that has at least a partial focus in heatgunning is fine, as no other mech really focuses on that much

#

I do think I plan to build a bit more into hooking into Tear Down specifically along that route because I think that's a good, telegraphed ability

rose hamlet
#

... you know, I feel like there's a hidden niche for Witch (or NPCs in general) that's a little unexplored, seen in Spread Suffering: being able to do AoE control effects?

#

like, as the shtick

#

I think hooking into Tear Down is a neat approach though

#

"heat for each condition on the target" just entered my mind

brisk flax
#

Dark Cloud already works like a Tear Down augment which I think is a good approach

indigo oasis
trail pivot
carmine idol
indigo oasis
brisk flax
# 
System, Quick Tech, Recharge 6+ 
+2/4/6
The Witch makes a tech attack against a character within Sensors. On a success, the target immediately uses a non-Superheavy weapon chosen by the Witch to attack a character within Range also chosen by the Witch as a reaction. If the target takes the Brace reaction in response to this tech attack, they ignore the effect of this system; characters in the Danger Zone can't take the Brace reaction against this attack.```
supple leaf
#

Oh interesting

brittle cipher
#

ooo, formalizing the "brace the pred logic" tech, and giving inherent self-synergy with heatgunning by disabling that if the target's heated.

#

dope

smoky bluff
#

That's cool

surreal zenith
#

and a little less ambiguity about superheavies iirc

brisk flax
#

yeah lmao like 90% of this is "clarifying what already exists"

#

but also: better watch that heat cap, buddy

indigo oasis
#

It codifies it so it can counter it- interesting

brisk flax
#

Predatory Logic is a very weird Witch system in a number of respects. It's baseline part of its kit, but it has essentially nothing to do with any other element of the Witch's stuff, no hard control, no heat, it exists as a weird outlying surprise "fuck you" that also happens to have a counter that is both relatively easy for everyone to access and also simultaneously something you probably need to be told about because while rules-legal it isn't intuitive

#

And yet for all of that, it's maybe one of the most iconic abilities it has

#

"one time I used predatory logic to make someone shoot their team with a displacer" is like 90% of positive GM-side Witch memories

#

Personally I think the dynamic of its existing counterplay is...I dunno how to frame it, but it's a case of "I accept that bracing the predatory logic is probably balanced given how punitive bracing is most of the time, however I feel like it results in an anti-climatic resolution of Nothing Happens on a recharge 6+ ability" that renders things often unsatisfying

#

"if players don't want to take Predatory Logic on the chin, they never have to" makes it feel more like a brace bait-out that occasionally you slip past and get to do the fun thing

echo wolf
#

It also "resolves" one of the few system-level knowledge checks that exists in Lancer, because of why the Brace stopping the attack works, because until reading the carveout I literally didn't know that bracing stopped you from losing to Predatory Logic

brisk flax
#

yeah

#

sometimes I think it's fine to be like "the answer to the question is to follow the A to B logic of the game systems" BUT nobody fuckin gets this one on the first try

rose hamlet
#

Yeah no one ever thinks to Brace tech actions. Another weird Brace interaction is Brace’s “resistance to heat for that attack” apparently applies to both instances of heat for Tear Down since they’re both effects from the “same attack”

prime urchin
#

Maybe the witch's real niche was "tech attacker you brace against" all along ?

plucky robin
#

The witch imo suffers a bit from being The Tech Attacker NPC.

#

It would be like if sniper was the only Ranged Attacker NPC

#

There are some other NPCs that do tech attacks but in the corebook, it's the one where tech attacks are the primary plan.

#

So it's got to do All The Things A Tech Attacker Would Do.

smoky bluff
#

Well it doesn't help the next heat Gunner, priest doesn't apply heat from using abjure

rose hamlet
#

Yup that’s partly why “brace the tech attack” is such an obscure bit of “system mastery”

brisk flax
rose hamlet
#

Ralf apparently thought Tom thought so, according to this old post: #rules-questions message

#

But I’m having trouble finding the WOT ruling

brisk flax
#

Yeah because I'm unsure brace affects later implementations of damage or heat that don't occur immediately, and I don't remember Tom ever saying so

trail pivot
#

ive generally ruled it as brace only working on the triggering damage/etc so like

#

if it happens after the brace resolves then it is what it is, you take the full

brisk flax
#

same here

rose hamlet
#

Yeah no that’s fine by me, it was an unintuitive interaction/interpretation

brisk flax
#

To be clear, this isn't me picking some sort of remote fight with anyone who rules it the other way, merely that if it IS meant to work that way I'd need to see an actual cite on it

#

neither way really informs how I plan to approach Tear Down (it'll remain pretty unchanged I think)

wanton maple
#

The only issue I've seen with Tear down is with Elite and Ultra Witches gowing twice in a row to spike a players heat without the player having a chance to do anything about it

brisk flax
#

the witch is interesting in that a lot of its more potent effects work on a time delay, they're looming threats

# 
System, Quick Tech
+2/4/6
The Witch makes a tech attack against a character within Sensors. On a success, the target takes 1/2/3 heat immediately, and then a further 4 heat at the start of the Witch’s next turn. If an affected target or an adjacent hostile character takes the Stabilize action, they can choose to end the effect of this system in place of cooling their mech.```
#

I don't really want to make the witch a "choose your poison" type controller because I feel that's more outside the bounds of what you could consider its identity to be, but much like with Petrify I think it's fine to look at elements of its kit and work in some counterplay elements to them

wanton maple
# brisk flax ```Tear Down System, Quick Tech +2/4/6 The Witch makes a tech attack against a c...

See, my take would be something a little simpler.

System, Quick Tech
+2/4/6
The Witch makes a tech attack against a character within Sensors. On a success, the target takes 1/2/3 heat immediately, and then a further 4 heat at the end of the Target’s next turn.```

Simple, thematically appropriate (You've been cursed by the Witch), and an impending threat that's going to happen, but can be played around.

But there's probably some critical flaw with this that I'm not seeing
trail pivot
#

maybe im mis reading but that is literally just what tear down does already

brisk flax
trail pivot
#

oh targets, right

brisk flax
#

Their version is at the end of the target's turn

trail pivot
#

brain misfire

brisk flax
#

my take is that condenses it too much to really be useful as anything other than "spend your turn stabilizing or not"

#

Tear Down as it exists allows you to spend your turn stabilizing/doing some other heat clear stuff, or alternately you can kill the witch and at that point it also doesn't go off (no witch to take a turn means no further proc)

#

I'm more interested in playing within that delay framework, and by giving it an additional method of interaction (letting allies also help stabilize a Tear Down target out of the successive heat effect) approaching the issue of "but what if a multi-action witch just focuses one guy down" that way

#

and also because I'm not sure how "the target takes all the heat during their own turn" really mitigates that dynamic either

#

"EoNT" puts more of a delay on it but I'm not sure that does much for me either

#

the value IS consistent in that it's similar to how other conditions work, but it still feels less interactable

#

As a simplification it's not bad, but I think the witch's issue is weirdly split between "this is a little too simple" and "this is weirdly complex" between a few angles

#

stuff like Petrify is too complex (in a bad way), I think Tear Down is a little too simplified already

wanton maple
#

Maybe let the Witch do the extra heat as a reaction at EoNT?

You then have the solution of "Put the Witch in a situation where it can't take reactions, or deal with the heat. It prevents stacking tear down on a single target as well

brisk flax
#

Making things into reactions, solely in my own personal opinion, adds a bit of bookkeeping I find gets overlooked a lot

#

Also, I think my thing is that I'm not really sure I feel "stacking tear down" is a big issue I have with the Witch

#

The simpler and easier way of handline that, if I decide to do it, would just be to say "this effect doesn't stack"

#

or reframe the wording akin to the Spite's virus where it's a binary state of "you are/aren't infected"

#

etc

#

right now the things I'm focusing on with the witch are trying to thread the needle of "this needs some actual concrete gameplay loops/mechanical identities" with what ikiryo correctly noted as "the witch is the Primary Tech Attacker NPC, so it gets All The Tech Attacks" issue

trail pivot
#

my personal view on tear down was a thing of maknig it both a full action to use but also making it a permanent end of turn check. does nothing but apply "Tear down" on hit, and then youre making the save at the end of each turn to see if you either clear it or take the heat, with the added conditon of giving the player the option to stabilize

brisk flax
#

more immediately, an issue I have with the witch is that it's another NPC whose starting kit is "one always there thing, then two recharge abilities"

trail pivot
#

yeah

brisk flax
#

what does a CRB witch do when its stuff is on cooldown, largely turns into "tear down + invade" or something

trail pivot
#

turned blind and predatory into loading things on my end,"

brisk flax
#

I'll be real, there's like a 30% part of me that thinks if Predatory Logic wasn't as memetically iconic as it was, I'd consider cutting it

trail pivot
#

one of the things i did think aobut was kind of viewing the scope of witch tech attacks to be "things that make it harder to pilot via affecting or hijacking controls"

brisk flax
#

but if I went down that route, I'm not sure where I'd really stop

trail pivot
#

i debated cutting it but i was fine with it, in favor of making ti a full action and also giving it utility outside of weapon stealing

#

made it also have the target consider everyone hostile

brisk flax
#

because the witch is such a broad brush thing, you could go "well maybe THIS doesn't make sense either"

trail pivot
#

so bnow predatory doesnt just only steal your weapon once it also makes you think your friends are hostile so they stop benefiting from your cover or things like that, set up in such a way that the witch very much does just only spam Tear down, but now it has less overall tech attacks, and it has a few small little bonus tools"

#

i meant to go handle hive a while ago but never quite got around to it

brisk flax
#

"you don't count as an ally" is pretty interesting, it's a subtle sort of effect but potentially very mean

trail pivot
#

yeah, i had the idea from how often i would get in a position to have predatory logic around and then its just "well everyone is out of position or there's multiple powerful support effects on going"

#

I honestly thought about just using it more often in general since it does just seem like a great "Free real-estate" effect

errant needle
#

Not a mechanical bit of feedback, but I will note I had to re-read this section a couple times

If an affected target or an adjacent hostile character takes the Stabilize action

Before I realized that meant "hostile to the Witch"

#

I was briefly trying to consider how you'd end up adjacent to an enemy NPC as it stabilized which would clear the Tear Down

brisk flax
#

yeah, NPC language is supposed to be "allies = other NPCs, hostile = PCs"

errant needle
#

Yeah, after I realized it, it clicked, just that was a very odd image for a second.

brisk flax
#

sometimes you get the occasional "or characters allied to [a hostile character]" but by and large the standardization is supposed to be that

errant needle
#

Just gotta heatgun another NPC so he stabilizes and clears the Witch's curse for you

#

Though that briefly gives me the image of some kind of "infectious" debilitator that could jump sides via specific actions, but that's probably not useful for the Witch's space

brisk flax
#

It's not entirely outside of it, given that Pain Transference exists

#

also here's something that's fucked up: the witch has incredibly high save target scaling, and zero forced saves anywhere in its kit

errant needle
#

Made me legitimately pull up the book and yeah, that's weird

#

Also, Save Target is like, the only stat where that kind of uselessness can happen

trail pivot
#

yeah i noticed that too

#

i went and added a bunch in tear down and the optionals

#

thing has a million tech attacks but not evne the actions to use them all

brisk flax
#

It's an interesting thing to consider because on the one hand, adding saves to make that save target matter is a decision that makes sense, but the flipside is that adding more saves (that aren't contingent on a successful tech attack) means that the Witch becomes better against countermeasures such as Invisibility and/or bracing (if applicable)

trail pivot
#

yeah.. in my bcase i tied all the saves to be ways of either clearing the effect of a tech attack, or having it be tied to an onhit as an optional

prime urchin
#

In much the same way that the witch is The Tech Attack NPC™️ , I find that the Spite is The Tech Save NPC™️ , so I wouldnnt want the witch to get saves in a way that would step on the Spite's shoes

indigo oasis
#

Ya know what’s a “””fun””” blasphemy to commit? Running the Rebake NPCs and using some of mutually exclusive CRB optionals as extra optionals

brisk flax
prime urchin
#

!!!

rose hamlet
#

tactics rundown looking good; noticing that some base stats got a cut: EDIT: Evade to 8/10/12 from 10/12/14*, EDef to 12/16/20 (only T1 change), Speed to 5, ST to 12/14/16 (reasonable), and T3 Sensors down to 15. These all look reasonable tbh. Moving on to the features

brisk flax
#

yeah I massaged the stats a lot because witch stats are very weird

#

huge ST spike, wonky defense scaling, also I never have known why they're speed 6 exactly

#

also to clarify, their evasion is even lower: it's 8/10/12

#

this is because of some changes to how Blur functions

rose hamlet
#

whoops mistyped, yeah

#

Blur is fuckin sweet

#

Danger Zone Matters is a good theme IMO

#

the Blind changes are interesting; loses power in action economy and requiring 2 D20 rolls to actually blind, but gains on flat accuracy, guaranteed heat, and a consolation impaired on a successful save

#

Predatory Logic on a Quick is terrifying, love it. All the FAQ clarification is good too

#

Limiting Pain Transference to just Tear Down seems healthy. saves on the action economy too

brisk flax
#

blind is (and was) a very weird one in that it's meant to be a core part of the witch's kit, and every other NPC side blind effect is linked to "attack, then save" like the archer's blinding shells or the veteran's headshot trait, so for the witch to get it simply on attack is clearly meant to be more of a powerful iteration for it, but it gets put on a 4+ recharge which is basically a coinflip of "can the witch spam this or does it use it once and then run dry"

rose hamlet
#

Petrify is looking preem, no notes. Even has innate "don't spam this", which is frankly fine by me.

Ditching Spread Suffering was a good call tbh, just makes more irritating attacks and also relies on frustratingly-rare adjacency

#

Now Immolate, ohohoho okay now we're cookin'

#

big ol' Last Argument of Kings, with extra suffering, and a consolation prize on a miss

#

Yeah this looks like it slaps

indigo oasis
#

Blind got weakened, bout the removal of recharge makes it more usable but more punishing if it fails, which encourages smart targeting. I like!

#

The fact that Predatory Logic got almost exclusively buffed is… interesting. Not bad just interesting. I feel incredibly neutral about that, but in the way where after titration you end up with a water

brisk flax
#

there is one adjustment to it that is technically a nerf

#

it now specifies "hostile character"

#

unlike Predator/Prey Concepts, CRB Predatory Logic allows the Witch to use it on allies to shoot their guns, and the CRB tactics section even hints at this

indigo oasis
#

That’s a good specification, never been a fan of how that worked

#

Off topic, but I was thinking about the Ultra Rebake yesterday- I understand the intent is to add “more guns,” but I remember something about intending to add more “Argus Armor” style features. The exchange of passives for actives was something pretty frequently brought up iirc, but I was wondering if there were any plans for new passives that act as sort of “boss gimmicks”

brisk flax
#

yeah if I can think of stuff that fits better in those regards, mainly what I want to ditch is outright immunities etc

#

things like "the ultra can fly" are fine

indigo oasis
#

Back to witch, initially Blur’s change was a little weird, but then I thought about how it acts as a more active disengagement feature now- if the Witch wants to avoid overwatches, it needs to tech attack nearby threats to put them in danger zone first

strange rock
#

I think the Blur change is the coolest thing in this
I can't recall a time where I got value out of the crb blur, very excited to use this

brisk flax
#

CRB Blur, to me, is a weird one because it's basically just "invisibility as overwatch mitigation" on a fragile range 15 unit, you should not be in a position where you're regularly proccing overwatches

#

yeah

#

it's an ability that imo rarely actually comes up

indigo oasis
#

Yeaaahhhh, if anyone is gonna kill a witch it’s the ranged attackers

brisk flax
#

I thought about ditching it entirely for another trait, but then I realized I could just hook it into the Danger Zone thing to turn it into a more proactive form of defense

indigo oasis
#

The last witch my party faced got hit with a smartgun before being installed killed by a Shiver Timbers

brittle cipher
indigo oasis
#

Tbh this version of blur would’ve maybe saved that witch

brisk flax
#

Frankly, I would bet a lot of GMs forget blur is even a thing

indigo oasis
#

Personally, I’m a big fan of the direction of adding proactive Defensive Traits

#

Reactive ones like with strikers are good, they’re taking a lot of hits by nature, but controllers are dangerous yet vulnerable- taking active action to protect themselves perhaps at the cost of doing more control is fitting

indigo oasis
indigo oasis
#

I like Immolate too- Spread Suffering always felt like a too mean optional to me (if PCs can’t twin tech actions it seems a little unfair for NPCs to cheat the action economy the same way without a cost), and I do like limited systems like that. Plus since it probably needs building up to it makes it easier to spot with scan and counter, and if it succeeds it has a lingering impact

#

It follows the design philosophy I have around Limited NPC systems- if they only get to do it once it should require strategy to work around, both before and after use

indigo oasis
# brisk flax yeah if I can think of stuff that fits better in those regards, mainly what I wa...

One idea I came up with (tho idk if it’d be fun) would be something that makes damage types significant while not necessarily punishing one specifically nor being exactly like Aegis’ Adaptive Shielding:

Proactive Shielding
At the start of each round, the Ultra gains resistance to Kinetic, Explosive, and Energy damage. After taking damage from a type it is resistant to, it loses resistance to that damage type granted by this trait until the end of the round.

Basically shielding that needs to be stripped away like Argus armor mixed with Deathcounter. Idk if it’d be fun but it sounds interesting imo- and it rewards aux weapons since they can strip away a resistance really fast and continue to attack unpunished, as well as encourages typical non-attackers to become proactive in order to support buds and strip resistances. It does unfortunately reward homogenization, but if a team isn’t gonna build around energy damage to counter regenerator idk if this is too big a concern???

#

I’m thinking the fact it’s only 1 instance of damage per damage type could make it more interesting rather than all but one instance of damage for one damage type

indigo oasis
#

It also acts as a minor “superheavy resistance,” where in order to follow through with big attacks you likely need a bit of setup first

errant needle
#

I feel something like the one Mirage optional would also be a potentially fun space

#

the Ultra causes "effect" within its sensor range, like how the Mirage makes everyone have Soft Cover regardless of placement

#

The Mirage even has the "if it takes damage, disable this until its next turn", though given how fragile Mirages are, that tends to work out to "and then they die which turns it off permanently"

rose hamlet
#

Ran some rebakes tonight: Pyro, Assault, and Archer, alongside 2 of my own homebrew NPCs, the Napalm (burn+slow artillery/controller) and Vulture (wreck-eating support and controller??? I guess??)

Also had some house rules in effect for Overcharge, Stress, Structure, and Self Heat on Recharge abilities, but the only NPC really affected by them was the Pyro.

Sitrep was Holdout. Map size was 18x22, square grid, holdout zone in top right corner with some back padding.

With the smaller map and nearby ingress zones, the first Pyro I fielded was able to get nearby and create some pressure. FIREBREAK having range 3 was the difference between having cover and not. Explosive Vent even got used, but only after it got Exposed, and only after I used it did I realize that Clear All Heat does not clear Exposed, lol, lmao. That's on me though. The Burst 2 felt like a much more reasonable footprint given its slow speed, even on a small map. Still does nothing on a successful save though, which is a bit of a sour spot but whatever.

I used the Lingering Flames optional, which the PCs managed to abuse a bit with their allied NPC witch's predatory logic to force the Pyro to give up the preexisting flames (since they last until the flamethrower is used again). Players almost had an opportunity to knock an enemy into the flames later long after the Pyro was dead, which was neat! I like the "forced but sticky" nature of the flames.

Archer: I used the Flush Out optional. Basically, all the PCs said "so shoot me". There was a lot of soft cover around though, which meant it was relying on Reliable damage... against mechs with 1-2 armor. Just a bad situation for the Archer IMO, a Hive likely would've felt better in the comp I used. I still liked issuing the "move or get shot" order of Flush out; I'm willing to chalk up tonight as bad circumstances for the Archers

#

Assault: They had Flank and Fix but I squarely forgot to use it, lmao. I had a couple opportunities to do so, but oh well. I still really liked the base mechanic of "flank them for benefits", though the Combined Arms Stoertebeker had a field day thanks to its soft cover lol. I liked them though, felt engaging to use as a GM

#

(also remembering that I forgot Hunker Down in at least one crucial situation, forgetting NPC reactions will be the death of me)

#

Overall, the rebakes played solidly and felt like great refinements

brisk flax
#

Nice, thanks for the feedback

#

The Pyro is one I don't think I've gotten a lot of reports on so far, that I've been curious about how it's performing

rose hamlet
#

I still think it could use 1 more point of speed lol, but that may just be my own tweak to add

#

The cramped holdout map let it shine, briefly as it was

#

oh, for reference, this was the map. Platform in top right was the objective zone. My pyros entered on the bottom right ramp, but struggled to get over the Size 1 small rock cover lol

image.png
brisk flax
#

ah, yeah, that'll do it

brisk flax
#

so anyway, on to thoughts about the next one up on the block, with one of the great philisophical questions of our time: is it ever actually worth it to kill the engineer's turrets, and if not, should it be

#

Engineer turrets, per the corebook, have what I consider the "ideal" HP progression for NPC drones (a thing that is wildly nonstandardized all over the fucking place), sitting at 5/8/10 across three tiers

#

I have made a few exceptions for this, the big one being the bombard's flare drone which gets inflated HP to account for the fact that its job is to be shot at by a gun, but on the whole, where I can, I have taken it upon myself to reign things in to this level

#

however, the thing about NPC drones is they usually come out in, like, singles and not "up to six at a time"

#

this leads to the pretty normal strategy of "don't waste time shooting drones, just kill the engineer"

#

a nice, sensible set of tactics, which raises the question: why do these things even have HP then?

rose hamlet
#

I think that there tends to be an under-valuation of AoE weapons on the Player's side of things, which are actually pretty great at killing drones

You're driving at what I was thinking as soon as you asked the initial question, though: "Grunt" Drones

brisk flax
#

I guess they might die due to incidental AoEs, a lot of them probably die to Displacers or Plasma Throwers, but deliberately attacking the drones seems like a sucker's game (and I have been informed has been the bane of more than one new player confronted with an Engineer in Solstice Rain's second combat)

#

and yes

#

what if

#

the engineer's drones instead had 1 HP

#

Up to two of these self-constructing turrets can be deployed to any free, adjacent spaces. On the Engineer’s turn, deployed turrets attack the nearest hostile character within Range 10. They attack at +1/+2/+3 and deal 4/5/6 kinetic damage. The Engineer may have six turrets deployed at one time, all of which are disabled if the Engineer is destroyed. If the Engineer becomes Jammed or Stunned, their turrets are also disabled for the duration of those conditions.

rose hamlet
#

"up to two" yeah we're on the same wavelength here

brisk flax
#

Power Deployer sucks and is a trap option imo, so: make it baseline and get it the fuck outta here

plucky robin
#

So you are never worse than not having the optional

brisk flax
#

Yeah something like that would be substantially better

#

this is potentially a pretty big swing in terms of NPC dynamics, because it now means that turret drones can be VERY easily dispatched, anyone packing GMS pistols can kill a couple with a Skirmish, and so I am very unsure exactly how this will affect the Engineer, it could be massively for the worse if it makes it too easy to simply prune its turrets, but the fact that they can attack the same turn they deploy means that it shouldn't be completely neutered

rose hamlet
#

Attacking same turn I think keeps them competitive, especially since the Engineer still has a gun

brisk flax
#

yeah, and baseline double deploy means you're essentially looking at an NPC that can consistently "triple attack"

#

even if the attacks are modest in terms of damage

rose hamlet
#

exactly. 3 + 4 + 4 Tier 1 is respectable

#

even with inconsistent target acquisition

brisk flax
#

what if the squad was a mech

rose hamlet
#

like, what if Engineer was just a Size 3/4 drone swarm?

brisk flax
#

well I was thinking more in terms of "this NPC makes, baseline, three attacks"

#

the squad getting to double-tap with its rifles and then shoot the anti-armor weapon

rose hamlet
#

Mm okay, and then damage to the whole reduces the damage output

#

So you get a front loaded striker instead of a backloaded one (over the course of a fight)

#

I think it there’s a space for the concept (that isn’t the Squad class), but it sounds like a marked departure from OG Engineer

plucky robin
#

If the drake can beeline up in front of the turrets he can go 'Hahahah, puny engineer'

rose hamlet
#

Having a hard time imagining Drakes beelining (I know they can do it with investment, it’s just hard) but now I’m thinking of Vlad waltzing up to the 1 hp Eng drones and laughing as they pop themselves

plucky robin
#

Fair, though there are options for 'fast' + 'armoured'

rose hamlet
#

Of course, my brain went to Vlad as one of them and then thought about Shrike Armor making mincemetal out of the turrets

brisk flax
#

part of my thoughts on this matter is that "getting to stomp a bunch of turrets feels like a thing I bet players would enjoy doing"

rose hamlet
#

Agreed, tbh; I was only making an observation (I was honestly ambivalent)

brisk flax
#

yeah, I mean I'm a little ambivalent myself because this could be a big departure from the Engineer in terms of effective performance, BUT I think if something is too much of a waste of time to bother shooting, then it having stats is largely performative

#

it's like one of those JRPG boss fights where focusing on the adds is a waste of time and you should really be focusing on the core

errant needle
#

I do think there might be a room for an optional that kinda changes around the dynamic.

plucky robin
#

It does sorta help with one of the weirder engineer options.

#

Where Grunt Engineers make turrets that are better than they are.

errant needle
#

Something like "instead of being able to deploy multiple turrets, you get one and it's a bit of a monster."

plucky robin
#

And can get a bit oppressive

errant needle
#

I figure that priority wise for the base, though, you'd want like, three major points.
1: The Turrets can't be TOO durable that just shooting the Engineer is faster.
2: The Turrets also can't be so easy to kill that the Engineer is burning Quick Actions constantly replacing them without them getting some value out of it (aside from action sinks to keep the players from shooting the Engineer, causing sort of a stalemate)
3: The turrets can't be so easy to spawn that we wrap back around to Point 1 in that the only way to stop the unending tide of turrets is killing the Engineer.

#

I have to wonder if like, there'd be space for maybe, like, the Engineer can't deploy turrets if Jammed or something

#

a status lockdown that gives the players an opening to move in and kill the Engineer

rose hamlet
#

There’s an easy one, and it’s “deploying turrets costs heat”

#

Plus the jammed clause Kai had earlier

brisk flax
#

Well, looking at the baseline of how it works: deployed turrets can always attack the turn they come in, so there's never really a point where 2). is a case of not getting value out of it

#

you can look at the worst of the dynamic being "the engineer is always making two turrets that die, then spending a QA to make two more turrets which die," but fundamentally what else is the engineer doing with those actions anyway

#

Engineer's Mark is literally the only other action-costing thing in its CRB kit

#

everything else is traits

#

(WHICH IS WEIRD BUT WHATEVER)

errant needle
#

Yeah, that is a thing. For some reason, I thought their Mobile Turret thing was a quick action

#

but I think I was thinking of the Hydra system

brisk flax
#

now admittedly, "the engineer's gameplan is always QA Deploy Two Turrets, QA Flak Cannon, essentially barraging" does potentially turn into a very boring sort of base gameplay loop, similar to how the Squad is also kind of boring, but my counter to that would be: is the CRB Engineer, in its baseline form, actually more engaging?

errant needle
#

I admit, Engineer's Mark being an "AI tweak" almost feels kinda like wasted space?

#

Like everything else in the game just lets the GM target what they want to target

#

I can't think if anything else runs on "AI" like the turrets do

brisk flax
#

I do like the concept of "the Engineer can give their turrets orders" but the Mark itself feels kind of perfunctory, as far as "the turrets run on AI," my take is that this is intended to be a sort of counterplay angle

errant needle
#

Maybe Berserkers berserkering

brisk flax
#

that is, if you run a heavy armor guy near the engineer's turret nest, the turrets spend their time plinking at that guy and not focusing a less resilient teammate

#

it's similar to things like the Cataphract's point-defense shield which exists to make the cataphract good at the 1v1s it creates by dragging people away from their friends, but which can be negated by clever positioning tricks

errant needle
#

Mm-hmm. Similar to deliberately provoking the Berserker near his buddies

#

It does provide a solid option of "use this Quick to avoid your turrets wasting shots", though on a Recharge 6+ I wonder if that feels a little underwhelming for, as you've put it, "you may only get to use this once the entire fight"

brisk flax
#

Yeah, the big issue more than the action cost is that it's on a recharge that's "the most potentially You're Not Getting This Back" a recharge can be

plucky patrol
#

I definitely agree about the turret's targeting restrictions being important counterplay. If Engineers get enough turrets they very quickly become the highest DPR NPC in the game, in a way that becomes super oppressive if they can always target 'optimally'

brisk flax
#

I think the Mark is costed the way it is (recharge 6+) because turrets are frankly so not worth your time to kill that if it was freely usable it would be too powerful

#

yeah

#

Engineer's Mark is a Big Problem is you consider "this is 6 turrets gunning down one guy"

#

and since killing turrets is often a waste of time outside of doing a lot of big AoEs, you can get a lot more turrets out on the field more reliably

errant needle
#

Yeah, and anything that buffs the marked attack is gonna scale hard

plucky patrol
#

last time I ran an engineer one survived until round 8 of an escort, and the only reason it didn't destroy multiple players is because they had a 3 armor frontliner to stick in front of it

#

this was the first combat of the mission too, so its not like they went in at half structure from the get-go too

brisk flax
#

I mentioned it in passing, but a lot of newer players who show up for Solstice Rain combat 2 (the escort mission) get confronted with an Engineer and fail to abide by proper targeting discipline and it starts to be a bit of a spiraling problem

errant needle
#

And like, if you give it a buff on top of "intelligent" targeting, that makes it even more dangerous

#

I wonder if you could theoretically just remove the intelligent targeting but make it a recharge that makes it a little spicier for the armor dude bodyblocking

plucky patrol
#

these players were also shooting the turrets alot too, since I was playtesting some hombrew including an artillery frame whose shtick is giant AoEs, and this one engineer still caused all these problems in spite of that

brisk flax
# 
Trait, Quick Action
Until the end of the Engineer’s next turn, up to two of the Engineer’s Deployable Turrets will attack a target of their choice (within Range) instead of attacking the nearest hostile character.```
#

offhand, this is like a 3 second potential adjustment

#

which is basically "just cap how many turrets you can point at a guy"

errant needle
#

Mmm, that does prevent the theoretical "six turrets ignore the tank and vaporize the backline controller"

#

Only other thing I could think of is if the "smart" turrets can all target, but have a restriction on attacking the same target outside of their normal priority

#

Similar to how Hellfire Projector gives multi attacks but the AoEs can't overlap, thus preventing double tapping.

#

Though limiting the smart turret numbers is probably better

#

just because it keeps more of them focused on the tank

#

rather than turning range 10 around the turrets into a "will they/won't they shoot us anyway?" zone.

plucky patrol
brisk flax
#

I'm not even sure what way I really want to run with the engineer on a fully solidified level (i.e. am I going to keep the mark, what I'm gonna do with its optionals) but I do think I'm intrigued by the potential of 1 HP "grunt" turrets that I want to give that a spin precisely so it makes the avenues of counterplay more than just "shoot the engineer, ignore the rest"

errant needle
#

I can see maybe an optional of grunt turrets with like, 1 armor, which makes them more resilient against basic reliable, but not so much so that most guns won't delete them anyway

#

Though that could end up penalizing Aux weapons that tend to have pretty low damage dice

plucky patrol
#

oh that does remind me actually of a bit of feedback I had from fielding some rebaked grunts

#

I don't have much feedback on them, they didn't really do too much overall, but one thing I did notice was that I felt like none of the grunt types having any armor removed a a good bit of texture I'd come to expect from normal grunts, and it made the strikers I was using feel very fragile

brisk flax
#

To an extent, I'm not actually a big fan of the things like "3 armor bastion/pyro grunts" because I don't really view that as something I want out of grunts, mechanically

#

defender-type grunts DO get an approximation of this in that they get a dose of overshield

#

so you can't just Reliable 1 them out of existence

plucky patrol
#

I think thats a fair point about the 3 armor NPCs, but like, if I run em again I plan on giving at least the strikers just 1 armor

brisk flax
#

The strikers getting 1 armor is something I could maybe see doing

#

just as an experiment

#

but tbh I'm unclear how much difference that will actually make

#

like yeah it saves them from 1 non-AP pings

#

but I'm not sure how much that happens in a meaningful sense beyond the world's unluckiest auxslinger

plucky patrol
#

something so they can't be plinked down by an errant GMS pistol in a main aux, and so theres more consideration in what weapons you do point at them

#

I think the feeling I felt was missing the most was my players deliberating on which weapon to shoot them with, lest they risk rolling minimum damage and not actually killing them

brisk flax
#

if you try them with 1 armor let me know, it's something I'd only really give the striker-types if I did it

plucky patrol
#

will do! I'm definitely trying it on the strikers when I next field them, and I've been debating playing with the overshield amount on the defenders to give them some too

#

I won't be giving any to the others though

brisk flax
#

armor + OS is something I'd be careful of due to how it ends up resulting in a compounding effect

plucky patrol
#

makes sense

#

I might just strip the OS entirely and give them 2 armor, see how that plays

#

But then again idk, I only used the striker-types so far, so I don't know how the defenders feel with the OS

errant needle
#

Randomly, having messed about with the Artillery and Support grunts recently, I did run into a bit where I had to be very precise with the Artillery grunt positioning, because they absolutely can get free Lock Ons, but only by exposing themselves since the Ordinance tag keeps them from hiding behind walls until they're ready, and Lock On needs LOS, which leaves them wide open to being splatted before they're ready. It's an interesting tactical wrinkle to using them.

#

Kind of reminds me of similar things to the Sniper Rebake where they might rely more on frontal spotters for Lock Ons rather than their own innate kit.

brisk flax
#

yeah

#

it's a case where it's less "this is a self-contained loop" and more "you can do a couple things with these guys"

smoky bluff
#

True, having a system that other npcs can bounce off from makes for crazy combos, that's why the Rainmaker scout is goated

#

Also makes it so that every death of a npc is so much more significant

brisk flax
#

My hope with the grunt rebake is that they're also more bounded and less "grunt Assault" in nature such that you can maybe get away with using them a bit more freely

#

maybe that's not the case, idk

#

I'm not sure what the "ideal ratio" of these guys to normal NPCs is yet, and I'm not sure I'll ever really be able to zero it in

smoky bluff
#

Lol, I just take the subordinate route from another homebrew and homebrewed my own grunt classes

errant needle
#

Well, I'll definitely be putting them to use going forward. They came out about the time I was setting up an arc with a faction that uses "cheap is more" design philosophies

smoky bluff
#

URAHHH

#

The swarm approaches

plucky robin
#

Vague Pondering Kai: If you rebake squad, maybe rather than just 'guys with guns', it gets a rebake more as like 'This is for Dangerous Swarms, regardless of nature'. So it could be infantry with Demo charges they're gunna shove on your mech's legs or it could be a rolling nanite swarm or Many Zerglings.

#

play into the thing that makes squads unique: Being that flowing mass rather than a single hard model

brisk flax
#

So I've mentioned it in passing, maybe in the gm corner before I moved it here, but I don't think I'm going to touch squads because I feel like that's ground that's been covered pretty well by other people like reconus with their squad kits

#

"bespoke squads" is a really cool idea but also the sort of thing I think you would want to do more extensively than a single-point revision

plucky robin
#

That's very fair.

#

I might play about with that idea some time.

brisk flax
#

the fantasy people have with squads is I think something that really calls for more than you can do with a few bits of base kit and five optionals

plucky robin
#

Give it more of an identity as 'a horrible ripping swarm that's going to take your legs out from under you' rather than 'what if...I dunno. Every Human Unit Possible?'

brisk flax
#

it was called The Swarm and it was cut for being pretty similar to the squad and also extremely potentially very deadly with the right combination of optionals

plucky robin
#

Oh yeah, I remember it. It just never quite got fleshed out/was autobiological iirc

indigo oasis
#

So quickly touching on the engineer discussion: I’ve run a not small number of engineers, and they’ve always felt… very awkward.

They have a weird anti-flight niche with Flak Cannon that seems a bit too niche to really be worth using, especially with its low damage. The playstyle I tend to go for is “the engineer spends one action placing a turret, and the rest either finding a good place to put it, hiding, or locking on.” The whole “the engineer can effectively always barrage playstyle” almost never comes up because Flak Cannon isn’t really worth using.

Moreover, I’ve never to date used Engineer’s Mark. Even if 4 turrets are on the field, they often rarely all have line of sight to the same target, making it rarely worth it to use.

Perhaps I try to spread out the turrets too much, that could be an issue, but I often feel restricted by the “can only place in adjacent spaces” aspect of the engineer. It makes covering more ground harder and being without a target much easier.

Overall, I’ve found engineers have rarely been actual threats to my players and have been awkward to use. Idk if my playstyle is the issue or the engineer, but I wanted to share this experience to see if it provided… something when it comes to the rebake.

brisk flax
#

Flak Cannon is kind of a whatever-tier weapon but it's better damage than a squad's primary weapon at longer range, it's not nothing

#

like, I agree that it's hardly inspiring, but I think you can't really make it a much better weapon or else you run into problems with the NPC that has scaling numbers of attacks

indigo oasis
#

I’m not saying Flak Cannon needs a buff to be fair

brisk flax
#

yeah

indigo oasis
#

But the idea that some of the optionals even enforce an “anti flight” niche feels out of place

#

Out of all the NPCs to be anti flight (a niche I don’t think needs to really exist in Lancer, being able to immobilize is enough imo), engineer is not my first pick

carmine idol
brisk flax
#

real witching hours itt

carmine idol
#

If two witches were watching two white witches, which witch would watch which white witch?

blissful lion
brisk flax
# blissful lion I felt that too, like the only time it’s come up is zero-g, and I think they mis... 
Trait, Quick Action, Recharge 6+
The Engineer chooses a character within line of sight and Sensors; they gain Lock On. At the end of the Engineer's turn, up to two of their Deployable Turrets will attack that target (if it is within Range) instead of attacking the nearest hostile character. This trait automatically recharges whenever two or more Deployable Turrets are destroyed by hostile characters before the start of the Engineer's next turn.```
blissful lion
#

What if the engineer needs to sacrifice a turret after the attack or something?

#

Destroy a turret adjacent to another to do a bigger attack or add a weapon tag or a 1d6 on crit or I don’t know

brisk flax
#

"sacrifice turrets to do stuff" is among some of the ideas I'm vaguely spitballing but tbh I don't think that with 1 HP turrets the engineer will really need to self-mitigate in that fashion

blissful lion
#

Or you can sacrifice turrets to gain a +1 on recharge rolls either before or after you roll

indigo oasis
#

Question about the distant Ultra Rebake: in terms of big guns, are there any kinds of firing restrictions that you aim to have a reduced or increased quantity of? Stuff like Recharge or Loading- I know the former is on Ultra’s most popular big guns and the latter is completely absent

#

Personally speaking I’m a big fan of Ultra’s having loading optionals- gives them more of a reason to stabilize, and I’m always down for giving NPCs stabilize incentives.

Meanwhile Recharge is… ok, but since the Ultra gets more turns than other NPCs in some groups it makes them less predictable in terms of boss gimmicks- which isn’t something you frequently want. That, and it makes how many uses the thing has per scene dependent on luck, so you sometimes end up with 1/combat Wolfhound Missiles

#

Other restrictions include ordnance, self heat, and turn limits, among others

brisk flax
#

Dunno yet, haven't gotten there. I know I'm going to look at giving the ultra at least one melee weapon to round out its optionals a bit and then see what I feel like

#

The ravager turret and hellfire projectors exist in a space of "weapons that can threaten a lot of people at once," though I don't think that's a strict necessity to live by

#

I'd like to add stuff that isn't necessarily just "and it has a second big gun"

errant needle
#

I honestly almost feel like you could do something similar to the Veteran Rebake

#

with there being "Ultra Weapon Optional"

#

specific to given classes

brisk flax
#

I could, but I will not

errant needle
#

That would of course be a ton of work

brisk flax
#

That's way too much work on that end for me

#

Yeah

errant needle
#

That's a "in an ideal space where you're getting paid for your time" kinda design question

brisk flax
#

I'm doing veteran that way because traits are a significantly lower overhead and I hate 90% of the existing veteran template already

indigo oasis
#

Personally I think going for diversity in terms of “big guns with restrictions” would be my way to go about it. That way each optional can feel as unique as possible and interact differently with different classes

#

A Loading Optional is gonna be better on a Bastion than a Pyro for example

errant needle
#

I am kind of amused at how testing out the Rebake Goliath later will be kind of organic for the game I'm using it in, since the original time that NPC showed up, I gave it the Boarding Leash optional, which the new mag gauntlet....does very similar things for. The main difference being the Mag Gauntlet is a bit less dangerous since it only does the pull in effect, whereas the Boarding Leash Goliath critted and took 11 HP off the harpooned PC when the Pirate crit trait rolled max as well.

#

Yeah, the existing Ultra Weapons can be very different depending on what you put them on.

#

Like, say, a Hellfire Projector on an Ultra Bombard is going to be a nasty surprise

indigo oasis
#

And you may not wanna optimize certain optionally too if you wanna alter an NPCs playstyle

errant needle
#

Pure spitballing here in general NPC design space, I could see it being like, role based.

#

something that works well for a Striker Ultra vs. a Controller Ultra, etc.

#

Keeps the number of optional systems lower while also allowing you to, say, put your Controller Ultra weapon on a Striker NPC to give them some versatility.

indigo oasis
#

Perhaps. Still more work tho, and probably better to just make them general optionals rather than role specific ones

#

The Roles are just suggestions- bespoke features are meaningfully class exclusive

errant needle
#

The one I've been contemplating just for something for my own game because it sounds fun would be a system that uses allied wrecks as ammo.

indigo oasis
#

Making optional with that kinda idea in mind would be good, but that aspect of design probably shouldn’t be codified in the rules of the abilities

errant needle
#

Just sort of "destroy one mech wreck, draw a cone out to <range> and do <x> damage in the area, halved by an Agility save."

indigo oasis
#

Neat idea, but idk if it’s a great idea for Ultra. Demands a lot in terms of environment design and budgeted NPCs

errant needle
#

Oh yeah, not necessarily ultra specific

#

just got on my mind after my Black Witch player slammed a Size 2 wreck into a chokepoint with Ferrous Lash to block off pursuit in an escort

#

Like "these aren't deleted from the field, so this is a resource that can be tapped tactically still."

indigo oasis
#

You should probably look into Legionnaire’s Puppeteer Template

#

Also made by Kai

errant needle
#

Yeah, I saw that, and haven't had the right situation to use a zombie case yet, though with what's percolating for an Act 2 antagonist in my current game, I could definitely see them getting some playtime.

indigo oasis
#

Act 2 of what out of curiosity?

errant needle
#

Oh, just a personal game, no particular supplement.

indigo oasis
#

Plus it doesn’t necessarily need to be zombie flavored, it can just be… stuff

#

Like flash repairs

errant needle
#

But the secondary faction is basically a corpo-state in the making

#

and it's going to be coming out that they're built on top of a Great 10 era wreck.

#

And basically found an actual machine mind from that time period.

#

Like, standard sci-fi style AI, rather than a NHP

#

which is kind of radically rare in Lancer's setting, actually

#

And so that slipping its restraints and having frames designed to "raise" wrecked chassis would be in theme

brisk flax
#

Re: role oriented weapons for the ultra template, I'm not sure I'm going to go in that direction, but one thing I do want to try and do is look towards ultra optionals that are oriented towards roles other than "guns and defenses"

#

There's very little in the template that supports an ultra controller, for instance, or an ultra support

indigo oasis
brisk flax
#

Yeah, Legionnaire is Kat's baby

errant needle
#

Kat, Kai, easy mistake to make with the wrong font? 😆

#

This is why you cross your Ts and dot your Is.

indigo oasis
#

Oops

fluid zodiac
#

I got a chance to use the hornet rebake last night and I adore system spike. The agilitymaxxed party Lycan, conversely, did not appreciate how it interacts with hold/lock.

indigo oasis
#

Oh that reminds me- ran an encounter with a Rebake Goliath, Sniper, and Ultra Breacher (and a base game scout w/ Dataveil)

#

Tbh not enough happened to make any of them feel very different, sans the sniper- in that, it’s Allies died too fast to apply friendly lock on, so the sniper became trivially easy to difficulty stack and make helpless. The fact that all its available targets had soft cover and it was impaired just kinda made it hard to use.

That’s probably not a bad thing- the rebakes are definitely going in a direction where each NPC wants the support of others, but it was an observation. It would’ve felt better to use if it had +1 inherent accuracy since this sniper no longer has an optional with off turn attacks and made taking cover + difficulty stacking more meaningful, but I understand if that would be an undesired change too.

#

The Goliath did die fast, but a narrative reward made it start with 10 less HP, and it never took damage in a way that would have triggered Siege Armor so it’s whatever

#

The breacher did feel good with the new Painmaker tho, having no restrictions on who it targets made it way more fun to use

#

Oh right- size 2 on the breacher. Good idea, keep doing it

brisk flax
indigo oasis
#

Still, forcing the sniper to shoot flat is one hell of a debuff

#

I’d run more snipers before saying anything definitive on that tho

#

Since it was an additional NPC in an ultra fight it tracks that it didn’t get much chance to shine

#

IMO, the thing about baseline accuracy in core NPCs is to make difficulty stacking become more demanding as tiers increase as players gain greater ability to perform it with diverse tools. I agree on the point that it is pretty egregious how much accuracy is handed out, but it has its place.

surreal zenith
#

players have a bunch of tools for difficulty stacking?

indigo oasis
#

And base +2 accuracy at all tiers is too much

#

I’m prattling off an apropos to nothing, point is after testing it I’m leaning more towards giving Sniper a base +1 accuracy, but I’d want to field it more before being certain

rose hamlet
#

I don’t know, I’m hopeful that Snipers mark granting 1 acc will do the trick

brisk flax
#

I'm very aware that the sniper shift in accuracy is a big swing, and I recall bringing this up before at that time as well

indigo oasis
brisk flax
indigo oasis
#

Finding the right balance between “really wanting to profit off the mark” and “still benefiting from attacking other characters” is tough

#

But there’s another side to my experience- my players were rewarded for smart use of cover. When my sniper attacked, not a single character lacked cover from it. So the Sniper was pretty much helpless against them. That is a good place for a sniper to be game design wise- it punishes those who are out in the open

#

So perhaps the sniper not feeling good to use in the circumstances was a good thing- it rewarded smart positioning

#

You’d probably wanna get playtest data from GMs who had a chance for their snipers to attack unmarked targets outside of cover- that’ll get the best input on how much inherent accuracy impacts the Sniper’s ability to punish characters outside of cover

brisk flax
surreal zenith
#

wooooo

indigo oasis
#

I’m interested in this one- running engineers has always felt awkward to me so I’m curious to see if the rebake is more fun to handle

#

(If it isn’t then I’m probably the common denominator)

#

This one comes with color too!

#

Is “free adjacent space within range 3” intentional or typo?

brisk flax
#

typo

#

Range 3 is the correct one

indigo oasis
#

Neat. Also, how does Perimeter Defense’s Threat work if the drones don’t have weapons?

rose hamlet
indigo oasis
#

I’m a fan of getting rid of Arsenal and focusing more on individual traits that modify the turrets. Arsenal is neat, but having a bunch of different turrets became annoying to track real fast

rose hamlet
#

Leaning into the defender aspect of the engineer is good imo

brisk flax
indigo oasis
#

Do each of the Turrets get their own overwatch?

brisk flax
#

arsenal is neat in theory, but in practice a lot of the options are kind of lackluster (who is champing to turn a range 10 attack into a cone 3) except the bomb one, which just becomes a one-off because nobody shoots turrets

indigo oasis
brisk flax
indigo oasis
#

This rebake seems to be the one with the most changes from the base design on a pure on paper standpoint, but I like the changes quite a bit

brisk flax
#

that's potentially a lot of reaction overhead to track so I'm not as married to it

indigo oasis
#

You could make it so the engineer has to use the reaction overwatch rather than the turrets, but it’s still mechanically the turret attacking

#

I… dunno how you’d word that, but it’s not like the engineer is gonna overwatch much with its flak cannon anyhow

#

Auto Tracking could also theoretically be its own ability replacing Perimeter Defense, even though I like what Perimeter Defense is going for

rose hamlet
#

My brain says “turret reactions can work if you tap them like Magic Cards”

#

It’s something I’ve thought about as I’ve thought about overhauling Lancer’s reaction system

brisk flax
rose hamlet
#

Like, in practice, it shouldn’t be too hard to track reactions (like Overwatch) for turrets. It’s like a Mine but it sticks around afterwards

brisk flax
#

gotcha

rose hamlet
#

If the GM has a way to visually indicate a “used” turret, I think it can work

brisk flax
#

also my thought is that at 1 HP, a lot more turrets are going to die in general

#

I think "the engineer makes a nest of 6 turrets that last most of the fight" probably will not be happening as often

rose hamlet
#

Then you “untap” them start of Eng’s turn and they’re ready to react again

#

Of course, agreed

brisk flax
# 
Trait
Deployable Turrets gain Threat 3 and can Overwatch (1/round per turret), and the Engineer gains the Auto-Tracking reaction.``` is probably how I'll word this
#

it's in the drive now

fluid zodiac
brisk flax
#

anyway yeah, this version of the engineer does deviate in some larger ways from the base version both main kit and optionals, mainly I have found engineers sort of one-note a lot of the time

#

things like arsenal are evocative but not, imo, actually very practical or worthwhile in execution, and the rest is a grab bag of whatever, power deployer is kind of a trap choice, and I've discussed that I find turrets as drones to be only incidentally interactable much of the time (they can die to AoEs as a byproduct, but nobody is wasting a skirmish to try and kill a turret instead of focusing the engineer itself)

rose hamlet
#

Engineer is one of those weird NPCs because the tin says “striker” and it’s because it deals damage, but because it makes a “no-fly zone” (pun half intended) that’s hard to move, it actually is more of an Objective Defender (but one that defends through Damage Striking)

#

So leaning into that with Cover and Overwatch and Overshield optionals feels Right™️

fluid zodiac
#

I like that arsenal is gone since it was basically the "make strictly better turrets" optional

#

Mobile turrets does that too in a sense, but I can at least imagine situations where it's not worth taking.

indigo oasis
#

Engineers have more bulk than I remembered… 10 heat cap that scales in the original version w/o any heat related optionals is wonky tho, glad that’s gone

brisk flax
#

this may not be a universal assessment, but in no way do I think it's worth turning a 4/5/6 damage range 10 weapon into a 2/3/4 burn weapon with a cone 3 AoE

#

the self-destruct option was also largely useless in my experience

fluid zodiac
#

And primed turrets could quite literally blow up in the engineer's face

brisk flax
#

the reliable was maybe the best one of the bunch, and I'm not a fan of that from a design standpoint

fluid zodiac
#

Hunter was the one I was thinking of, yeah

#

The only time I've used primed was for the explicit purpose of getting my players to try and blow them up on the engineer for more damage

trail pivot
#

yeah my choice of optionals for turrets was always "take speed deployer and remove recharge" and then just like, that was it really,

indigo oasis
#

Off topic, but perhaps something to keep in mind for potential buffs or debuffs to rebake weapons- the only non-blast arcing weapon amongst all CRB NPCs is the Rainmaker’s Missile Pods

#

All the others are blast weapons

brisk flax
#

missile pods are functionally a weird AoE anyway

indigo oasis
#

True, regardless Rainmakers are the only NPC that seems to deal with the struggle that is “arcing weapons still suffer cover penalties” which is something

#

All others completely bypass it thanks to blast radii

brisk flax
#

the workaround on the rainmaker's end is huntsman, which converts arcing to seeking

indigo oasis
#

Yeah so it basically never comes up

#

Idk if it’s an actual issue… could be interesting to make more common

rose hamlet
#

I’ve got my own ideas for arcing/seeking rebakes lol

hollow steppe
#

Might be a question already asked, but is there any plan to rebake the Suldan npcs? I notice some of them have the multi attack that you now find so taboo

subtle nacelle
#

Hey is the engi rebake's Repurpose feature supposed to be a Trait or a System? It is currently a Trait in the docs

brisk flax
brisk flax
hollow steppe
brisk flax
#

In the CRB, systems were all done in green regardless of things like active/passive use, traits all were done in red, etc same thing

#

Per Mina, based on discussion of current ongoing lancer layout, the way it's being done going forward is that NPC stuff works thusly:
1). Anything with an active action cost (quick or full action specifically) is denoted using the green box layout, whether it's a trait or system.
2). Anything that's passive and doesn't have an action cost gets done in red

rose hamlet
#

I, the layout and style guide goblin, am taking notes

brisk flax
#

Basically color/layout for NPC kit is less "what kind of thing is it" and more "what action is it taking to use this" with an exception carved out for quick/full tech stuff that gets its own thing

#

you can note this in action in Winter Scar, where the MBT has a system called Secondary Gunner that is nonetheless a passive effect, and therefore gets done in red

#

So this is a long roundabout way of saying that yes, Repurpose is a trait, one that takes a quick action to use

plucky robin
#

nods

#

Interesting, I'll have to note that down

brisk flax
#

traits taking actions to use isn't new stuff, the CRB is full of it

#

Covering Fire off the Archer, a lot of Assassin Stuff, etc

#

it's mainly an iconographic/layout adjustment

#

Comp/Con as a program may not employ this distinction

rose hamlet
#

It most certainly does not at this point, lol

brisk flax
#

which is fine, I'm not fussed

rose hamlet
#

But v3 may change things up, we’ll see!

brisk flax
#

but as I go back and add future layout color marking in these (something I plan to do for all of them), I will be sticking to Mina's current working model, which will be passive stuff in red, quick/full action stuff in green, with "system or trait" being a non-factor in those decisions

rose hamlet
#

Yeah makes perfect sense tbh

#

Wondering how much it’ll butcher my layout to change to that style on my own stuff, now

brisk flax
#

like I wouldn't spend too much time worrying about it

#

functionally what matters is the keyword info

pulsar hound
#

For VTT users we've also put together an LCP specifically for turrets - we're still looking into how exactly we're going to bundle this with future releases.

📎 kais-npc-rebakes-turret-1.0.0.lcp
rose hamlet
subtle nacelle
#

for now we can include it in the release as an additional asset

rose hamlet
#

Like Bombard’s drone

pulsar hound
#

A full drone LCP is a good shout actually

subtle nacelle
#

kais-npc-drones-and-deployables-1.99.1023.lcp

rose hamlet
#

I think Riker set one up for Core NPC stuff, which is why it was on my mind

errant needle
#

Definitely some fun things to play with here. I will note just from a "I think that's neat", the Auto Tracking being basically a NPC side version of how the PC deployable turrets work tickles my inner sense of design symmetry.

opal folio
#

what's people's experience been with the rebaked operator? halving its range seems like quite a significant nerf but i have a broad awareness that operators were considered one of the more Evil classes vanilla

rose hamlet
#

Haven’t tried it yet, but I have tried my own short-range operator and I can confirm the combination works well due to its inherent mobility with Trace Drive

#

So basically, the concept is sound IME

indigo oasis
#

Have you found it doesn’t really feel like artillery but more like a striker when made like that?

rose hamlet
#

Nope

#

Feels like a keep away shooty boi

#

Still doesn’t want to stand and fight, still paper thin, still doesn’t want to stand on the objective

blissful lion
#

It’d be interesting if arsenal was more of a limited system that the engineer can use when adjacent to one of their turrets or something

opal folio
#

with the Specter's Ghostwalk, is the bonus damage-on-crit retained until it's used, or is it only for that turn?

arctic stag
#

it has a lot better gameflow and more tactical decisions to make

arctic stag
indigo oasis
# arctic stag this reads a lot like a leading question to me

Ah no I was genuinely curious. Artillery can operate in a range 10 range- seen it a few times, with the only 1st party example being the MBT.

Plus, if the Operator shifted away from artillery, that’s not necessarily a bad thing either. Functionally, being a striker is the same thing, just operates closer to the action so is more likely to have a potent base defensive trait- albeit not guaranteed, like with the Bombard being a Siege Armor Artillery

arctic stag
#

i misread then, my bad!

indigo oasis
#

The big theme of the operator is its focus on teleportation, and with stuff like Telefrag it doesn’t necessarily shy away from close ranges. The Raptor could be changed to range 5 and I think that’d still be worth trying out to see how it pans… though admittedly I’d be pretty skeptical, however the few times I’ve played operators they’ve only really attacked from within range 5, which is a tactical blunder on my part

rose hamlet
#

It’s a role that fits the concept like a glove though

indigo oasis
#

Personally my classification of Striker vs Artillery is a high damage ceiling vs a high damage floor

#

Strikers have high highs but if circumstances don’t work out they can’t really reach them. Meanwhile Artillery is reliable and rarely has low floors…

… the concept doesn’t really shake out in practice (it might be the opposite, so I should perhaps consider swapping definitions), but when it comes to my own design it’s a philosophy I like to stick to

rose hamlet
#

I can see how that could shake out yeah. Strikers tend to be low range, high commitment, and poor target flexibility, and thus receive mundo potency to make up for it

Theoretically Artillery should be the opposite, but you’re correct that’s not always how it shakes out. I think with your metric though, range 10 operator rebake still falls in that Artillery role

#

Reliable damage does wonders for damage floor, after all

indigo oasis
#

Ye

#

Speaking of Rebake Artillery, I was thinking about how the Rebake Bespoke Features could have limitless interactions and how they had to apply to CRB NPCs and how bad it felt to miss with a Sniper recently… thoughts on this bespoke feature?

Panic Reload
If the Sniper misses with an attack using its Anti-Material Rifle, until the end of the current turn it may reload the Anti-Material Rifle using a Quick Action (such as one granted by Overcharging). It cannot shift its snipers mark until the end of its next turn if it chooses to do so, though it may still apply it if no characters have it.

#

It’s a big bonus with several downsides:

  1. it has to miss on its turn- not just miss, miss on its turn
  2. It needs to overcharge to reload rather than stabilizing. This prevents it from clearing heat or using that overcharge for anything else
  3. It loses the stabilizer turn to reposition, meaning sans optionals it only has 4 movement to position itself for its next shot
  4. If it has someone marked, it needs to commit to that target, even if they missed someone else or that marked target isn’t available.

However… 2 shots back to back

#

It gives a way for the sniper to stay in play, it incorporates Limitless, it leaves it suitably vulnerable, there’s immense risk to abuse of it, and it’s insurance that isn’t unlikely to trigger

#

The problem I see with it is that it does make the Sniper more action efficient which… yeah that’s kinda against the intent of the sniper v_v

But to me it sits in a similar camp as External Ammo Feeds: Way more expensive to use than stabilize, somewhat situational, but comes in handy

brisk flax
brisk flax
#

the nelson is another similar one, though it has the 1/round wording, however it's been noted extensively in the past that a nelson can boost and then sit on its bonus damage for, say, a reaction attack outside of its turn

#

My take on this is that I'm going to let the Specter hang on to the bonuses until used, with a note that the effect doesn't stack

#

re: the sniper, one of the things I 100% do not want to do is make it easier for the sniper to reload, because I think that's basically the easiest and most guaranteed way to deform the sniper around that ability

indigo oasis
#

Fair enough just thought it’d be a neat idea 👍

#

Speaking of bonus damage, out of curiosity how come you chose to give effects like Ronin’s Anti Ballistic Suite or Berserker’s Retribution variable damage (eg. +1d6 instead of +2/3/4)

brisk flax
#

Most sources of bonus damage in NPC catalogue corebook-wise are of the +1d6 variety, the specter has it, the ronin has it, it's how Deadly works, etc. A few other things deal more set amounts, but I've made a goal to move away from those in favor of greater standardization, hence why things like Retribution has been refigured from a stacking flat bonus you have to keep track of (which changes by tier) to "+1d6"

#

it's streamlining

indigo oasis
#

Huh, never noticed that. Good call

brisk flax
#

the one place I can remember clearly keeping the +2/3/4 is the Striker-type rifle grunt who gets that on crits and the reason I do it there is specifically to keep the bonus damage bounded and not randomly spiking for +6 damage on a grunt

#

the shoulder mortar artillery grunt just does +2 bonus damage with their special ability for similar reasons

errant needle
#

Yeah, having seen the accidental damage spike that happened from a Pirate crit, definitely a good call.

#

Boarding Leash suddenly doing 11 damage was as surprising to me the GM as it was to the player.

#

Definitely want to manage that on NPCs meant to be numerous

brisk flax
#

I'm aware the +1d6 bonus damage adds variance to the NPC damage ranges that doesn't normally exist, but my take is that if you aren't stacking pirate templates + splinter rounds on everything that the confines of a single d6 extra shouldn't prove to be too onerous, but the thing with grunts is you're probably using them, as you say, in multiples and there that's less ideal

#

Also I tend to make bonus damage a little harder to acquire in cases where it used to be easier

#

Weakness Analyzer on the Specter is a pure passive, the Ronin just gets it on crits by default, etc

errant needle
#

Yeah, Splinter Rounds is a thing where I was looking at that and kinda side-eyeing it just given the Pirate baked in Deadly

brisk flax
#

Maybe the easiest access to bonus damage is the Berserker where Retribution largely works as it always did, just set to +1d6 instead of scaling bonuses, and the Berserker is the definitive "this guy will wreck your shit in melee if you let them" NPC

errant needle
#

Yeah, the melee limitation makes them a lot easier to counterplay than "Just don't get shot" in a game built around resource attrition.

#

It's kinda funny thinking of how the Berserker is almost like the visible Seeder mines in that the perceived damage potential of letting him get in close to you is a soft control on where players will go as much as knowing "oh, the mines are here"

#

"Do not get within range of the happy fun chainsaw."

blissful lion
#

I wonder if there's a place for rainmaker to be more of a barrage artillery than a skirmish one. Obviously it all plays into the idea of javelins + knockback turn by turn, but I've never found it super duper engaging. Shifting some power away from attacking three different people anywhere in range 20 for a QA and more splitting up the targets over the actions could give the rainmaker more interesting choices, especially if they're just given two types of weapon to barrage - maybe one is more about knock back while the other targets two characters, and split up the huntsman tags between them or something.

neon blaze
#

tbh if you want an indirect barrage artillery you take the Bombard

#

switching the rainmaker to also be reliant on using barrage to get its value i think risks homogonizing the NPC classes further rather than really defining their particular niches, with the strength and weakness they entail

indigo oasis
#

plus rainmakers should have the chance to take advantage of sensors 15. Just cause they have arcing weapons doesn't mean they don't need line of sight too

blissful lion
#

I feel like they effectively already barrage most of the time with javelins, and don't move around all that much or have many other systems that take quick actions. And I'm not saying one weapon that takes a barrage, but more two weapons they can choose to skirmish with, OR barrage when the time is right - like consuming lock on or when a character is in a risky position.
I don't want an indirect barrage artillery, but to more spread the Rainmaker's artillery power and utility over a few actions you can pick between rather than just having one quite powerful skirmish that can hit a bunch of things.

#

It also feels a bit reductive to say that bombard's niche is just defined by how long it takes to shoot and whether or not its indirect. Bombard is used to split the PCs up and make the decide more carefully if they want to sit next to allies/objectives/other NPCs.
Even if the rainmaker has a superheavy, they don't really create the same sort of gameplay as a bombard in terms of the behaviour is encourages.
How the PCs interact with the NPC's kit is more important than the ways the NPC produces that effect imo.

neon blaze
#

I guess I just don't see the "they kind of already barrage using javelins" argument because I don't use Javelins to deal more direct damage, which is what giving them a second weapon would ultimately do

as for niche, its less about that (I know the Bombard and Rainmaker do very different thing) but more about an even spread of kits and pacings - there are already two Artillery NPCs which are all-in and retooling another to also be that feels like it would just flatten the gamespace more than actually expand it

indigo oasis
#

yeah there's been... a distaste for Javelins when it comes to discussing its role in the rebake.

The consensus is removing it (including from Kai) but idk, that's up to Kai ultimately.

neon blaze
#

I don't think it wasn't a very deliberate choice to not give NPCs two weapons (and the ones that do often have competing range bands, like a Threat 1 melee and a ranged, meaning using both on a barrage isn't really optimal) because the moment you do you basically just say "yeah always barrage until it isn't convenient" and NPCs really aren't meant to be that frontloaded nor flexible at the same time

neon blaze
#

but that feels like, well, just that, an abuse - I prefer using Javelins as an area denial tool, which is far more interesting to me than just "slap more damage on someone"

indigo oasis
#

my argument for using it as a source of defense by blocking off paths to reach the rainmaker only seemed to make the distaste for it grow

#

Even if it's used for area denial the Javelin rockets don't seem well liked

neon blaze
#

but also its not particularly grand at doing that either, just because of the restrictions

#

so damned if you do damned if you don't

#

which is why I imagine they're just being evaporated in the end

old ridge
#

it might be more interesting to swap the way they work, make it so you can only place them under a hostile character and that character takes damage at the end of their next turn if they haven't moved, or don't have cover from the rainmaker or something

blissful lion
#

I'm confused as to how it's an abuse really, blocking off paths is often highly ineffective unless the map is very tight, PCs can usually walk around without sacrificing any move, which leaves extra damage really as one of the most logical plays on the rainmaker's turn, especially 1-2 turns into the combat when no one has walked into the javelins yet.

indigo oasis
#

It's more that it makes the rainmaker too self sufficient

blissful lion
#

Like, getting 3 javelins and then 3 attacks with 1 knockback feels like a very intended feature

neon blaze
#

I mean, its a fancy landmine - that screams "area denial" to me, not "randomly do double damage on hit"

indigo oasis
#

Like how the Sniper didn't necessarily need to be more action efficient

#

It'd go against the game design and intent behind it.

#

A big portion of the rebakes intent is to increase NPC codependence so there's a greater sense of cohesion in opfors, and if the rainmaker can just sorta operate on its own then what's the point?

neon blaze
#

and honestly if it is the intended play, then Tom dropped the ball on that one and its probably good for it to go (but as the NPC tactics themselves imply, that is definitely not the case)

indigo oasis
#

It should not be capable of defending itself is the idea

neon blaze
#

ultimately though, I really don't think giving Rainmaker a second gun is going to achieve much but make it feel more like other Artillery and just run head first into the "does way more damage than it should be doing" problem again

plucky robin
#

I think a mech with a second weapon sorta needs to justify the second weapon.

#

And it's a pretty high bar

#

I have given an NPC two weapons before but it was also after a lot of pondering and going 'Is there cause for this?'

neon blaze
#

I think if you want an NPC to Barrage it should either be: 1, bad at it, or 2, extremely committal

plucky robin
#

When I did it for an NPC it was this on a Melee Defender:

Mag-Acceleration Blade
Heavy Melee, Loading, AP, +1/2/3
Threat 3
8/12/16 Kinetic Damage

Steel Fist
Auxiliary Melee, +2/4/6
Threat 2
4/5/6 Kinetic Damage

Notably...it can't Keep Barraging.

#

As one of them is Loading.

indigo oasis
#

I mean at that point you're just making the Bastion again

plucky robin
#

So it's got a Backup Weapon For Overwatch when the blade isn't available but it's got a plan that isn't just 'Start Turn, Barrage, End Turn'

neon blaze
#

Assault and Bastion I guess are kind of both in that they require melee range, and have to suffer engagement penalty (unless you get the Shield hit in first and knockback, but even then you have to content with the Loading on the Grenade Launcher)

#

Sentinel too, also

#

everyone else just goes "fuck it, Superheavy" and makes it Their Whole Deal

indigo oasis
neon blaze
#

I mentioned, aye

indigo oasis
#

oop I missed tht

#

It is very late and I have things I need to be doing that I'm not doing

neon blaze
#

but yeah, flexibility for an NPC costs, in the end

blissful lion
#

My original idea was simply breaking those 3 attacks apart, perhaps into one launcher that attacks once, and another that attacks twice, I could see loading playing into one of them, but I don't know if it fits into the rainmaker's turns and gameplay well.
Original idea was one that was more direct and could knock people back, whereas the other would be more about hitting 2 dudes and relying on lock on - perhaps it can only attack characters with lock on, or if they consume it.

#

I could do something like less accuracy, but then THAT feels kinda too close to the bombard for my liking

brisk flax
opal folio
#

i guess the other option is to reorient the rainmaker around deployables like the hound

brisk flax
#

Personally, I dislike the javelin/missile pod combo and can pretty easily identify it as a main issue with why rainmakers punch unintuitively high above their weight, and also frankly for a "combo" it's not that deep or interesting

blissful lion
#

Hound is objectively the coolest optional

opal folio
#

that'd basically make it a 'seeder but the mines move' which.....might be cool i guess?

indigo oasis
blissful lion
#

But it can be pretty crazy if you're within 3-6 of the rainmaker at the start of their turn and they use the system to blow you up at the end of their turn 👀

#

I mean the deployment limit is recharge 6

opal folio
indigo oasis
#

fair

#

But so is Wolfhound to be fair

#

.. i think

plucky robin
blissful lion
#

wolfhound can't be shot before it hits also

brisk flax
#

the corebook tries to identify the rainmaker as a combination of artillery and controller and to be honest I don't think javelins are really a great area denial tool much of the time, and the thing is I know that they don't even get used for that purpose because, again, what everyone uses them for as soon as they identify how it works is "javelin, knockback into missile pods"

blissful lion
#

or lashed into an ally lmao

plucky robin
#

Play harder into the 'making bad zones' and 'having Setup for allies to get Payoff on'

brisk flax
#

so imo it's a failure of implementation coming and going

neon blaze
#

yeah I found they're an Okay denial tool if you're dealing with Size 2's and literally don't exist otherwise

opal folio
plucky robin
#

Like I'd unironically give Javelins the Mine 'can't be triggered in the turn they're activated'

blissful lion
#

I feel like its damage is a double edged sword for the rainmaker

plucky robin
#

As they're still Mid-Launch

indigo oasis
brisk flax
#

like fundamentally I dislike the combo at all

blissful lion
#

I wonder if instead of 3 size 1's you just do a blast 1 area or something

#

much easier to track

brisk flax
#

it is maybe the least interesting form of combo, and I do not want to recreate it

indigo oasis
#

I think people have suggested that before and the problems still exist then

#

The blast 1 area thing

brisk flax
#

I mean the biggest thing frankly more than anything else is I'm not giving the missile pods knockback

plucky robin
#

Makes sense.

opal folio
brisk flax
#

the only reason they even have it is for the combo

plucky robin
#

I could see room for an NPC that does doublehard on the Ranged Knockback Asshole but that's Not Really The Rainmaker

indigo oasis
#

One of those changes that's reasonable but will still be missed

opal folio
blissful lion
#

I'm honestly not a fan of the reliable either

plucky robin
#

...a ballista-themed one would be pretty cool yeah. Line + Knockback would be fun...

opal folio
#

i think 'saturation fire' is kind of what sets the rainmaker apart from the bombard so i would try to keep that

plucky robin
#

gets pondering

blissful lion
#

I wrote a ballista at some point, but it sucks.

#

The idea being lines and punching through cover

plucky robin
brisk flax
#

Right now, the existing artillery units are:
1). The Bombard, which is AoE scaling damage within a defined area
2). The Sniper, which is high direct LoS single target damage
3). The Operator, which is striker-tier damage at average range and oblique angles

What I want the Rainmaker to be, in terms of "what this unit performs as" is a modest damage, consistent artillery unit. Not something that deals high spike damage, not something that punishes, the Rainmaker is an artillery unit that applies constant pressure. It doesn't have loading, its weapon isn't inaccurate, it's not ordnance, it's just "every turn, several people are going to take some amount of damage from this thing"

blissful lion
#

I feel like rainmaker is probably one of the better NPCs to get something like a Walking armoury/Seeder selection of their missiles at base, but maybe that's just how I imagine the NPC

neon blaze
#

the rainmaker is basically a clock

opal folio
indigo oasis
#

Yeah, I like the reliable when the rainmaker is approached through that lens

brisk flax
#

I mean yes I plan to do so

plucky robin
brisk flax
#

I will not be keeping knockback or reliable because I do not want either of those

opal folio
#

maybe, idk, change endless rain to let it barrage with the missile pods rather than the javelin missiles, but it has to pick different targets?

neon blaze
#

tbh I think Kai is stripping out all the passive effects vs Lock-On targets anyway

#

simply because, well, yeah

#

it defeats the point of Lock-On

brisk flax
#

Huntsman is, imo fine enough

#

If anything I may play up the interaction with Lock On

opal folio
#

yeah rainmaker benefiting from lock on feels like one of those things where they went 'well the monarch does it, so...'

neon blaze
#

surprising, honestly

brisk flax
#

what I'm getting rid of is A). knockback and B). reliable, and also C). the stupid combo

blissful lion
#

Monarch needs to consume tho right?

plucky robin
blissful lion
#

Slap stormbringer on there wholesale

#

job done

opal folio
indigo oasis
#

I don't agree with that sentiment about huntsman tbh- I think it's a good trait. Sure the Lock On becomes sort of passive, but the AP and seeking allows the rainmaker to be more consistent with its damage agaisnt Locked On targets. Plus the rainmaker can only lock onto so many targets on its own, so it encourages coordination between the team

neon blaze
#

I kind of personally viewed Huntsman and Marker Rifle as being in a similar bag there in terms of subverting mechanics in a way thats kind of oppressive

brisk flax
plucky robin
#

I'll admit, I really don't like the mix of 'Reliable' and 'AP' on the rainmaker right now.

neon blaze
#

and I do think its especially weird in reflection that the low-damage reliable NPC can just get easy AP that requires a whole full action to shake, more or less

plucky robin
#

It makes it feel less like It's Got A Trick

#

And more 'Well, fuck you. Take damage'

#

If that makes sense?

brisk flax
#

One of the things that I feel is an issue with the CRB NPC catalogue is that Reliable damage is loaded into three of the most commonly reached-for NPCs, the Assault, the Archer, and the Rainmaker, by virtue of them being "the normal NPCs," and this has the result of a lot of comps having Reliable damage saturation to a degree that I feel devalues (among other things) high-evasion lower armor/HP builds

#

I do not like where Reliable damage is assigned

#

Part of this project is me shuffling where Reliable goes, because my goal is not "remove it from the GM's toolkit" but "make it a more thoughtful incorporation"

indigo oasis
# neon blaze I kind of personally viewed Huntsman and Marker Rifle as being in a similar bag ...

They kinda go about it the opposite direciton is the thing. Marker rifle SRD is a debuff all NPCs can benefit from that the player has little agency in clearing. Huntsman is a buff to a single NPC that the NPC benefitting from it has agency in clearing. The agency in clearing the buff is with the attacker in both cases, but the latter case has it affect the attacker moreso than the defender.

brisk flax
#

Notably, this project started with me reworking the Assault in such a fashion that it is, if anything, anti-reliable

#

Right now, the Reliable damage NPCs in this project are the Archer (which I'm letting keep it as it's a fairly sensible platform for it), the Sentinel, and the Operator

plucky robin
#

I like it on the archer as it helps with the 'weight of fire' feel.

brisk flax
#

I do not particularly think the Rainmaker needs reliable because the Rainmaker makes three attacks per skirmish

plucky robin
#

Also means that it's reactions always feel a bit punishing

#

But they're reactions. That's Your Fault.

brisk flax
#

"Playing the odds" is the method of reliability there

neon blaze
#

yeah I can agree with that at least

opal folio
brisk flax
#

Sentinels and Operators are significantly more sometimes food units than Assaults

plucky robin
#

Attacks that might only happend 1-2 times a fight

brisk flax
#

Sentinels are short ranged and can be kited, and their main form of Overwatch augmentation self-slows them

plucky robin
#

Or that require setup

brisk flax
#

Operators are extremely fragile

plucky robin
#

The reliable is some insurance that if it happens, it will be felt.

brisk flax
#

moreso in this iteration where they lack Range 20 rifles and easy access to invisibility

blissful lion
#

This is kinda where I was going with my rework ideas - like Rainmaker has a ton of weapon tags - reliable, knockback, arcing - seeking, AP, smart - on any attack it does. You could split AP and reliable between two different attacks and force the rainmaker to choose when it wants to use its tags and on who. So maybe I'm thinking less of a double weapon thing and more something like the Cataphract changing weapon

plucky robin
#

Sorta like how Core Powers rarely have a way to entirely fail

indigo oasis
#

Archers and Sentinels also benefit from having their choice of punishment be less easily circumvented than banking on the attack missing. There are several ways to circumvent their punishers, but just dodging probably shouldn't be it

plucky robin
#

I hope I'm remotely coherant

opal folio
#

right yeah, i get where you're coming from re: rainmakers 'playing the odds' from extreme safety, that makes sense

brisk flax
#

compare this to the CRB Assault which has a Range 10 rifle with reliable and also Hunker Down and also 15 HP/1 Armor and also they get an optional that lets them ignore cover and also they can barrage with a grenade launcher and also they have a quick action damage save thing

plucky robin
#

Assaults for example are Durable, Solid Range...yeah, that

indigo oasis
brisk flax
#

and also everyone uses assaults because "it's the assault, it's the generic rifle guy, right?"

blissful lion
#

I mean I run in pbp so I'm often disappointed that the NPCs aren't more tactically interesting

plucky robin
indigo oasis
plucky robin
#

'Has to pick' only becomes a downside vs 'good armour and good evasion'

brisk flax
#

meanwhile the rainmaker, a unit with even longer range and multiple attacks with arcing/seeking from the comfort of behind an LoS breaking obstruction, doesn't need to be able to effortlessly deal damage to the mourning cloaks and atlasses of the world

#

The Archer is keeping it specifically to give additional weight and threat to their reaction attacks as a coercive threat, and that's part of why the sentinel gets it too

#

the Operator is getting it because, among other things, this version of the Operator has a gun that is massively less baseline accurate and a trait that shifts either accuracy or defense around depending on how it maneuvers

neon blaze
#

I do find it funny that the standard assault has basically been inverted completely post rebake

"reliable 2 guy that can optionally see through walls who now is encouraged to mow people down taking a morning stroll between Hard Covers to get good value"

opal folio
#

i will say that 3 threat is a lot bigger on a size 2 unit than a size 1

brisk flax
# 
Trait
Whenever the Operator teleports during their turn before making any attacks, they gain +1 Accuracy on all attacks with the Raptor Plasma Rifle until the end of their turn. Whenever the Operator teleports during their turn after making any attacks, all attacks against them receive +1 Difficulty until the end of their next turn. If the Operator splits their movement with an attack, they may only choose one of these effects.```
opal folio
#

which i approve of, those things are legitimately terrifying when they pop eye of midnight now

brisk flax
#

So having Reliable on its weapon means it has a "fallback plan" for when it uses Strike and Fade for defense

blissful lion
brisk flax
#

it can still attack and deal some amount of damage, if not as much as it normally might, when it needs to commit to defense instead of offense

indigo oasis
#

Would be neat to have a Striker with Reliable in this rebake, but it wouldn't really work with the current design philosophy of the rebakes

brisk flax
#

I mean the Archer and Operator are fundamentally "strikers" in the sense that "striker" means "guy who does good damage"

indigo oasis
#

fair

blissful lion
#

Like it has FIVE [count 'em, 5!!] weapon tags vs characters with lock on.

brisk flax
#

re: huntsman, my issue with the scout's marker rifle is that the marker rifle hit characters with a set of permanent debuffs and the ONLY way to clear them is to stabilize

#

and this is tied to a long range accurate weapon on a quick action trigger

indigo oasis
#

They're also a lot more impactful than huntsman

brisk flax
#

that dynamic, in scientific terms, sucks shit

opal folio
brisk flax
#

"spend a quick action to force someone to spend a full action clearing it" is the sort of thing that if you brought it to the homebrew channel people would tell you "hey maybe don't do this"

opal folio
#

cause a scout in range 5 of an enemy is not long for this world

brisk flax
#

huntsman, imo, isn't quite the same thing

plucky robin
brisk flax
#

like yeah, inbound attacks are buffed by it, but it's not on the level of "you are locked out of taking certain possibly build-defining actions and also are permanently shredded"

indigo oasis
#

And it's just inbound attacks from specifically rainmakers too

plucky robin
#

If I locked on to you 20 mins ago, I'm not going to recall if it was Scout Lockon or not

brisk flax
#

I think an argument could be made to tie huntsman to consuming lock on less from a balance perspective, as I'm not sure I think the design is inherently bad per se (I do some stuff with "use Lock On but don't spend it" with Suldan's SSC Comet for example) but from a mental overhead standardization standpoint

opal folio
#

it still rewards using lock on without consuming it which i dislike conceptually

brisk flax
#

where "consuming lock on" is the 99% standard way you engage with that mechanic, so making additive mechanics continue to require consuming the Lock On streamlines how people approach it

#

but frankly, I don't think there's something fundamentally wrong with "this thing treats Locked On people different" and it's a pretty solid basis for support-oriented structures

#

benefitting from a lock in orthogonal ways while saving the actual lock on itself for someone else

indigo oasis
#

I personally like the minor decisionmaking prompted by effect that benefit against targets with lock on that don't need to consume it, it's prompted a lot of interesting situations for me as a GM- makes the rainmaker more engaging to run

blissful lion
#

I find it often just becomes "lock on at the start of combat and never consume it"

brisk flax
opal folio
#

i'd like it as, idk, a conditional for a tech of some kind, or a 'staged' thing like the new Moving Target

indigo oasis
blissful lion
#

Sure, I didn't mean to compare them really

brisk flax
#

my issue with the rainmaker has never been about huntsman, it's primarily focused on the javelin/missile pod combo

opal folio
#

like - if you don't have lock on, gain lock on. if you already have lock on, get impaired or something.

blissful lion
#

I'm less about if it's balanced or not, and more about whether it creates interesting decisions for the PC and GM

#

and/or if it's fun

#

which is somewhat related

#

And if playing it logically lines up with what is interesting

brisk flax
#

the CRB wants to cast the Rainmaker as a hybrid artillery controller, and in several senses I think it fails at that, firstly because I don't think its base kit controls very well if at all, secondly I don't think its optionals do either, and thirdly because the tools it does have just pushes it towards damage even harder

indigo oasis
#

Consuming Lock On has rarely not been an interesting decision for me personally, as I often find all my NPCs are really hungry for it and I need to figure out how to ration Lock Ons out

#

Huntsman adds an extra layer to it that I really enjoy, and I think narrowing in on that mechanic is a good call

blissful lion
#

Because incentives are pretty strong with how people play the game. It's weird to have something written a certain way but then only be told how to actually play it when you come on here or online or whatever

#

Yeah I'm more asking if not consuming lock on is an interesting decision

indigo oasis
#

On paper it's better to leave the Lock ON forever so Huntsman benefits last indefinitely.

In practice that Zheng is gonna get here next turn so I really need to hit so I can structure him now

#

These effects that seem like they create perverse incentives on paper can prompt more interesting decisions in practice... when done well

#

The main thing to keep in mind is that NPCs are fragile and expendable

brisk flax
#

it's also worth noting again that a bit top-down element of this project is that NPCs in general will have less to-hit numbers

indigo oasis
#

"saving Lock On for later" is a iffy strategy a lot of the time, and abilities like Huntsman only nudge the meter a little in regards to doing that- you don't know if the guy you're saving it for is gonna survive long enough to use it

brisk flax
#

so endlessly saving lock ons should be, in theory, a less "whatever" decision point

indigo oasis
#

Yeah I really need to lock on more with my NPCs instead of ramming or hiding- the allure of "multiple attacks gain accuracy" is just so strong tho

opal folio
indigo oasis
#

I almost never do that, I'm always trying to micromanage my NPC positioning and how visible they are to the players so they can stay alive long enough to do things

#

Then I spent so many actions hiding they didn't get to do anything

opal folio
#

i gotta hide more yeah

indigo oasis
#

IT's great with Hives

#

Makes Recons and Controls feel extra dangerous

#

I think the most frustration (positive) I've ever gotten out of my players with a hive is when all my opfor just hid in their razor swarms- it's annoying and is a great lack-of-aoe punisher

#

it's also how I've played my hornets to such lethal effect

trail pivot
#

yeah my rainmaker thing gutted knockback and reliable on the rainmaker and got rid of javelins because i hated basically every part of that combo.

#

"i would like to actually be able to use more than one rainmaker"

indigo oasis
#

Idk, could maybe make Hades Missiles as part of hte base kit to compensate?

#

Or Hound Missiles

#

Or maybe Rainmaker don't need it

trail pivot
#

i already moved hound to be base kit but not because i wanted a javelin replacement

#

it wa sjust because "yeah this is basically just soemthing everyone's using"

indigo oasis
#

It's cool yeah

trail pivot
#

hades and volley are both things i just like

#

killed in favor of hound missile modifications

manic sky
#

Every time I use Hound Missile it just gets shoved back into the rainmaker...

indigo oasis
#

16 damage at T1 does feel a bit much

blissful lion
#

Hades and volley seem pretty lame, yeah

trail pivot
#

i also modified hound missile so its something that has to actually be respected/thought about, in exchagne for also making it harder to deploy (consumes lock on, but now moves at end of turn, rather than start, and the rainmaker can manually detonate it)

indigo oasis
#

I like Hades personally, and Volley seems interesting as it encourages the rainmaker to come out of hiding

#

Atlas Missile seems like it's gonna get axed because we already have orbital strike

#

which. fair

blissful lion
trail pivot
#

i personally actually kep atlas, i just made it less bookkeeping

#

I did in fact accoutn for this, however

1: my version has to consume lock on to even deploy the missile
2: the rainmaker is speed 3

blissful lion
#

that said, being that close is obviously risky

trail pivot
#

it also is much less spammable than a regular

blissful lion
#

I'm just thinking when someone inevitably runs up to the rainmaker, it is quite easy to lock on, then explode them

#

which maybe is something you like

brisk flax
#

Hounds being baseline are (as maria has stated) a thing she did, I'm not sure I'm going to follow suit the same way but I am going to look at adjusting how the Hound works to make it less of a player enrichment toy and something more like an actual threat

trail pivot
#

yeah i thought about it and i decided "yeah im probably fine with that. this dude can't run anyway and hes much less overwhelming obnoxious now so you know, respect the hound"

indigo oasis
#

Making htem more distinct than Wolfhound Missiles would also probably be a good idea

blissful lion
#

All rainmakers have "BEWARE OF DOG" written on their hulls

trail pivot
#

my personal onion is that anyone who would be running up to near-melee with a rainmaker is built to handle a surprise missile to the face

brisk flax
#

I think volley is also an ability I basically never use and I never want to use because it's just "wow, people take damage at the push of a button", whooooooooooo cares

trail pivot
#

yeah volley was bornig and also a "why take this when the base gun is arcing range 20 with reliable and javelins"

#

and hades was just like

#

that but more

brisk flax
#

atlas missiles and hounds have at least a commonality in the sense that they're delayed damage threats that exist on the map

trail pivot
#

Atlas i did a simular thing with other "2 round abilities"

#

i made them something you declare at start of round (along with the action cost paid right then and there) and then they come down at thje end of that round (i also made them limited 1)

blissful lion
#

I wonder if javelins would be more of a control tool if they did less damage and more conditions

#

or just straight up knockback being on the javelin rather than the missile

trail pivot
#

possibly but "make rainmakers controllers" wasn't really something i was interested in

brisk flax
#

are player-side javelins an effective control tool, or are they a thing you lay down so someone can puppet systems someone through them?

blissful lion
#

Yeah I'm just talking generally here than to anyone's version in particular

brisk flax
#

in a sense, any sort of "damaging terrain" can be a control tool, but I don't think in their existing state they serve the role well

errant needle
#

Honestly even as a Monarch player, I always kinda found player Javelins a bit underwhelming given the action cost.

blissful lion
#

Or I wonder if they could be less of a terrain thing and more of a control ability - if anyone ever wanted to make RM a controller - where you select characters, making them take damage/consequences if they don't move from their location. What does this achieve? ... I don't know.

errant needle
#

The Pinaka looming death was generally more fun on my end.

smoky bluff
blissful lion
#

RM does feel a lot like another artillery was needed so a lot of things were just taken from monarch

opal folio
#

bit more of this basically

maxresdefault_30.png
smoky bluff
#

I mean i do want my rocket trucks to be firing missiles like they are ww2 milk trucks with rockets on their backs

blissful lion
opal folio
blissful lion
#

Maybe

#

the key would be in the counteracting

#

the deployable is cool because there are so many creative ways to counteract it

opal folio
#

yeah the obvious thing would be by moving a lot but, i feel like there are already npcs that force players to dance

blissful lion
#

my white witch caught one with their pinning spire

#

then smashed it into the ground in narrative mode after pushing the roll

opal folio
#

opposed systems check to interfere with its targeting? inflict statuses on it? idk

smoky bluff
#

Its more fun to have a physical missile most of the time I feel

blissful lion
#

Rainmaker should be entirely deployable missiles, change my mind

smoky bluff
#

They'll take to long to get to the frontline

opal folio
#

players simply have too many options to get silly with it

smoky bluff
#

Tbh this can be fixed by having any character adjacent to the missile explodes

#

Technically that's what it already does, but tbh it would be funny if the missile is always travelling after every turn

blissful lion
#

Clearly we just need more so that the PCs are forced to pick which one they want to deal with

opal folio
#

endless rain now spawns 6 hound missiles

blissful lion
#

You see the vision

indigo oasis
#

huh- just noticed that the Aegis in the LCP has been size 1 for a while now

smoky bluff
#

I can post in #homebrew-design if you are curious

rose hamlet
# indigo oasis And it's just inbound attacks from specifically rainmakers too

This isn’t @ ASquared, more just my thought on the matter: If Rainmaker can benefit from Huntsman without consuming Lock On, what does that imply for the ability to deploy 2 or more Rainmakers simultaneously? If they’re just nickel and diming to death with AP and no Javs, maybe it’s fine? Or maybe they should actually fight over their Lock Ons? I just wanted multiple deployments to be a consideration

brittle cipher
#

And for solo rainmakers, if they're sitting on a lockon to keep getting huntsman that means they're denying the rest of the opfor that accuracy

#

Which is an interesting decision point - does the rainmaker need huntsman more than the demolisher needs the acc?

blissful lion
#

I find you can hit consistently enough most of the time unless there's a particular NPC with difficulty already, yeah