aaaaand for some reason he dresses up as a cop
#Deadlock
jaunty garden
Just off vibes he seems very goofish Good Omens "I hate magic. Wait, what do you mean magic is real??"
Also a British cop I think?
Despite being in New York?
rich grove
yeah specifically british bobby types
despite being in new york
in fairness his parents could be british, it's totally unspecified, whatever
finite patrol
in conclusion we are very annoyed by this
rich grove
it's genuinely just this one weird aesthetic hangup for me because otherwise everything about him works for me
I would love to play trevor edward belmont elric carrying around a stupid autocannon
rich grove
I'm in a similar boat with yamato except it's explicitly a carryover from her old neon prime design
back when she was a sectoid weeb and not just "a japanese person"
rich grove
before they set this game in 20s new york they wanted to make it cyberpunk
finite patrol
the game deadlock was
rich grove
that previous version was called neon prime
and I am so fucking thankful they didn't go with that LMAO
magic summit
Yamato now is at a weird point where they changed the voice but now it really doesn't seem like it matches the model
Wondering if they decided on which design to go with yet
rich grove
in that version of the game yamato is an alien who is also a massive weeb more or less, which is why she looks so uh
š½
jaunty garden
Huh
rich grove
and she has the giant 849128490128490128head
rich grove
I don't know? it might be?
magic summit
I don't know how you would get that it's a mask
jaunty garden
Because it doesn't look like a real human face
rich grove
if you don't know anything about the backstory like I did, she just looks like FANG from street fighter
where it's like
finite patrol
its not a real human face its a real alien face!
jaunty garden
IDK but AKI is great
rich grove
oh yeah AKI is great
this dude just looks demented
with yamato it's also kind of worse because of the 60 degree slant eyes which uhhhhhhhh I probably don't need to explain that
lavish grove
Clearly yamato needs to stay flying by flapping her arms while dropping bombs
jaunty garden
IDK this just looks very much like a mask to me
Like I thought it was a white mask
Since I never looked at her that close up before
jaunty garden
And like the black weird eyes were holes in the mask
rich grove
she does kinda look like the hollow knight characters
lavish grove
I thought she was just a weird fantasy creature when I first saw her
Itās not like I actually know her backstory
rich grove
like if hornet was wearing a wig to cover up her horns or something
jaunty garden
But yeah her head is REALLY TALL when I look at it
lavish grove
Honestly kinda wondering if her redesign will be a sorta buff
rich grove
it's pretty crazy that she's got a unity collider object for a head
lavish grove
With her head becoming normal sized
rich grove
I'm curious what the new yamato concept art looks like
jaunty garden
Oh that first one is so cool
I like #1 and #3 the most
These two
The second onefeels very yakuza
lavish grove
I really love 4 personally
jaunty garden
#2 total feels very yandere school girl?
rich grove
she kinda looks like Da Jokah Baby in some of these
lavish grove
Iād be happy with any of them besides 2 tbh
jaunty garden
I don't mind #4, but I'm not sure I like the heavier design for her character, she feels very floaty to me
lavish grove
I donāt really like the whole, crazy school girl vibe
rich grove
I don't mind #4, but I'm not sure I like the heavier design for her character, s...
dang, what is it, the braid
it might also feel a little too similar to wraith's do
lavish grove
For reference this is 2
Also wait I didnāt realize her uniform is for a college and not a highschool
jaunty garden
I don't think you can do Iaijutsu with a saber?
rich grove
oh she does iaijutsu!
jaunty garden
Which feels like a major part of her animation set
lavish grove
I mean I feel like you can, itād be untraditional but itās not like anything is stopping you from really quickly unsheathing a saber
jaunty garden
Yes sorry specifically thinking of the heavier weapon
rich grove
jaunty garden
LMAO
rich grove
they lean into her having a giant headbox by giving her a massive hat
see
it's genius
jaunty garden
I mean I feel like you can, itād be untraditional but itās not like anything is ...
I don't know too much about sword martial arts to be fair, but I'd think the highly different curve of the weapon would change how you can draw it and strike in one motion pretty significantly?
lavish grove
Also either way I feel like for Yamato honestly what her redesign maybe most needs is a like, calm, cool and collected design
To contrast for when she pops ult
lavish grove
I don't know too much about sword martial arts to be fair, but I'd think the hig...
Yah thatās fair, I think I just like sabers tbh
jaunty garden
But yeah other than that I do like #4.
lavish grove
Also really thick hair
jaunty garden
The one arm under a covering to conceal movements is a pretty traditional gunslinger thing
Which is neat
rich grove
I love her hair acting as her poncho for that purpose
jaunty garden
? #4 seems to just... Have the poncho?
jaunty garden
rich grove
in number 3?
lavish grove
I always thought of poncho as covering your entire front and back
jaunty garden
I think of cloaks as often doing that too tbh
lavish grove
Guess we just have different ideas
jaunty garden
I just say poncho because clasically it's a poncho for gunslingers
lavish grove
Yah fair enough
jaunty garden
It's not something I think of in detail tbh
rich grove
"the flappydoo"
jaunty garden
Clothing drape over arm to conceal movement because conceal movement good
Clothing nice drape good
rich grove
also you can use it for movement lines
and emphasize or exaggerate motion by having it flap
its peam
lavish grove
Also I know this is just concept art and isnāt indicative of the final design but man I hope eventually all the characters in this game look this detailed in game
jaunty garden
They won't, but they'll probably look a lot more than they are in game atm
rich grove
I think part of it is just that they're trying to make silhouettes distinct
then greeble on top
lavish grove
Yah definitely
jaunty garden
Yeah gotta make good silhouettes before you can sell skins
lavish grove
Do we know if this game will even have skins?
shy quiver
hmm
jaunty garden
No
shy quiver
Pocket skin where they get a good cut
jaunty garden
But we have no idea what their monetization model is IIRC
rich grove
Wraith's big flappy braid and hat
Warden being shaped like a barrel
Abrams' coat
Dynamo, who is a perfect circle
Haze's inexplicably snatched waist
lavish grove
Speaking of Warden man I really wanna see a version of his gun that actually looks cool
shy quiver
š¤ hopefully the cosmetic system will be something like Dota's
rich grove
his gun is weird
jaunty garden
That seems very likely, yeah.
merry verge
My eyes glaze over warden like he isn't here
shy quiver
instead of a single skin + chromas, like league
lavish grove
I know rn heās very unfinished because heās still using Kelvinās animations but I really donāt like his guns model
jaunty garden
I have no idea what DotA's is like tho'
jaunty garden
I like strange contraptions
merry verge
Mcginnis needs to be more contraptiony
lavish grove
Yah but I dont think itās a good looking contraption
rich grove
WARDEN WITH THE DOOHICKEY
shy quiver
it does look very thingamajigy
jaunty garden
I like it
lavish grove
More like an off contraption
jaunty garden
It looks very homemade
Lots of extra support because it blew up too many times in testing
And they just went fuckit and added too much support rather than just enough
lavish grove
Yah it also just, doesnāt fit Wardenās vibe
Like warden is intense and serious
Thatās his whole thing
But his gun looks and sounds like a doohicky that was slapped together
jaunty garden
Shrug IDK, again this might just be my Good Omens brainrot seeping through
But the Witchfinder general in there was very serious
But not very good at his job
rich grove
the gun also looks like it fires way faster than it does
jaunty garden
Although technically since he did find the last witch in England IIRC maybe he was very good at his job?
IDK
Anyway his budget was made of shoe strings
Warden also feels like they have a budget made out of his own bootstraps to me
So homemade makes sense to me
rich grove
although part of that might just be me thinking of, like, the peppermill gun from bioshock
merry verge
he and lash should probably get eyes first
rich grove
or roadhog ult
lavish grove
Probably yah
merry verge
Jacob's visage troubles me
jaunty garden
Should eyeballs be required to shoot guns?
merry verge
i mean technically no i think viscous is just pretending to have em
rich grove
just a big stupid bulletprinter that sprays metal in all directions at an rpm of pain
lavish grove
Do we know if Warden is getting a full redesign actually?
jaunty garden
Hmm, feels like it should fire SLOWER to me
lavish grove
Because heās not a neon prime character but heās his design also doesnāt super fit
jaunty garden
Like it should have a big hiss and then a THWOOM and some steam comes out
When it fires
lavish grove
Being an English Bobby in 1920-60s New York
lavish grove
I just kinda want Kelvin to look more Zombie-y
jaunty garden
Wait what
shy quiver
is he a zombie??
jaunty garden
Is he undead?
merry verge
He should skate even more whimsically
rich grove
he is undead
lavish grove
Yah dudes a snow undead
lavish grove
He died in his expedition then came back because of the relic he found
jaunty garden
I just thought he was scifi and... Scottish?
merry verge
See I took it as more like a Vandal Savage "i'm accidentally immortal' stone
rich grove
I mean I think it's funny that he's just kinda wandering around
paradox is scottish
I think she's genuinely just voiced by the horizon va doing the horizon voice with a filter
lavish grove
Kelvin is Swedish I think
rich grove
kelvin is more nordic for sure
merry verge
it's so Horizon-y
jaunty garden
I choose to believe you.
rich grove
the down in "I'll slow them down" would be read more like daen than daun
jaunty garden
I choose to not try to figure out what that means.
lavish grove
Also lost all his memory
lavish grove
Anyway, I'ma go sleep
Night
jaunty garden
"Well you're dead so we gave your money away"
lavish grove
I mean presumably he also did lose all that
Honestly Deadlock does seem like the kinda setting to deal with the issue of āwhat happens to the savingās accounts of the newly resurrected?ā
Like it seems like a setting where death is very transient
rich grove
uhhhh
I don't know if that's the case necessarily
it is notably weird Kelvin is undead and souls are used as fuel
people would probably feel some kind of way about that if resurrection was feasible
lavish grove
Arenāt ghosts stated to be kinda common?
rich grove
although "you put my husband in a diesel pump" does sound like a TF comics inciting incident
lavish grove
Or at least spirits of some sort
merry verge
McGinnis fires ghosts at people
rich grove
yeah souls are a big source of power
lavish grove
McGinnis invented the ghost missile
rich grove
but I don't think coherent undead would be common if that were the case
lavish grove
Itās kinda funny McGinnis is kinda quietly a horrible person lol
rich grove
well yes but she's cool
lavish grove
She seems normal at first but she invented a way to weaponize souls for a megacorp thatās actively hunting down Pocket
lavish grove
She talks about sleeping like a baby because of how well sheās paid for her weapons R&D
merry verge
Bebop is so enthusiastic about killing
lavish grove
tbf it was also Pocket's megacorp
Yah but at least Pocket has like, regrets
merry verge
True
lavish grove
Bebop is so enthusiastic about killing
Bebop is enthusiastic about helping his mom, the fact he enjoys fighting is totally secondary itās not
lavish grove
Girlboss medic
rich grove
Medic is already a girlboss
merry verge
Medic is doin it for the love of the game
jaunty garden
There is no ethical consumption under capitalism but maybe the literal enslavement and consumption of souls for fuel is less ethical
merry verge
I mean everyone's buying stuff with 'em
rich grove
hey they're not sentient
lavish grove
Also admittedly while I see why everyone else would make a pact with the patrons, itās kinda weird Warden is here when his whole deal is that heās trying to destroy them
rich grove
imagine if when people died they exploded in a shower of crude oil
surely you would be a fool not to use the free death oil
i can't see anything morbid in that whatsoever
merry verge
What.. what -are- the candlehead folks anyhow
jaunty garden
Sure and I'm sure that no one would decide to maybe ensure people produce their death oil on a consistent basis
merry verge
just sort of homonculus soldiers
lavish grove
imagine if when people died they exploded in a shower of crude oil
Dune/Armored Core 6
rich grove
yeah just sort of homunculi
lavish grove
I think theyāre a sorta automaton
rich grove
@frail jasper
rich grove
the cube has gotta be one of the best portal 2 skill infographics they've done
lavish grove
How much peace theyāre in
rich grove
john cena the way he's bing chilling
lavish grove
Also Iām super excited for the deadlock visual novels
Iām already super hooked for the setting and characters
rich grove
I want Meet the Haze.
lavish grove
Honestly Meet The videos would be rad
rich grove
I saw my first sf2m shitpost a couple days ago and it RULES
deadlock sfm shorts would be so fucking good
lavish grove
Theyāre apparently making cinematics for the game in it
rich grove
https://youtu.be/SuAL-Uo10zw?si=s9tKJSPzjqsNoZpB oh this is blender
still though
sick
rich grove
grass grows, birds fly, and bruv, i bash people
lavish grove
Imagine a trailer of Bebop and Lash fighting over screen time
rich grove
Bebop/Lash wrestler promo would unfortunately be peam
lavish grove
Actually, does Bebop even have any lines acknowledging Lash?
Or is the rivalry just completely one sided?
finite patrol
Nah Bebop hates Lash but he's more interested in killing people
"They took out lash, maybe they're not all bad after all!"
warden is here to cure me of my losing streak š
16 minute inhibitor baby lets go
magic summit
I think the match making has finally put me back into the people I was playing with before it was public
I am suddenly recognizing these people from months ago
rich grove
anyone up deadin they lock
rocky cobalt
I just checked it, according to the text it seems to donate health to allies
rocky cobalt
anyone up deadin they lock
Anyway I'm down but it seems like you just got a match also 
rocky cobalt
Europe (despite the best efforts of the Tory party)
rich grove
using leap to jump people with ult is kind of crazy
it's so fucking cheap
you hop in, ult while you're flying through the air, and then when you land you're annihilating people with the death cone
you use 1 and 3 to pin people in awful no-win situations where they're trapped and given the succ, then use 2, fleetfoot and divine barrier to get out of almost any situation scot-free
gets online as soon as you get leap
look up the hydration build, those looking for exact itemization
agile void
- Bebop: Sticky Bomb growth increased from 2.5% to 4% per stack
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO - Bebop: Sticky Bomb now loses 2 stacks on death
AHAHHAHAHAHAH FUCK YOU BEBOP
rocky cobalt
Neither of that matters anymore because he has a teeny tiny stack cap now
agile void
its still 60+% with the adjustments to the stack buff
cloud shuttle
Tbf bebop had some rediculous stomp capability.
frail jasper
While it doesn't scale infinitely anymore, it does scale quicker so if you start winning lane with it you'll keep winning lane harder and you can use that to snowball into the rest of the game.
warped ridge
Hard counter to haze is hard cc
Since it just cancels her ult and it takes her a long time to build her fixation stats
jaunty garden
Yeah, but there's not a lot of instant hard CC in the game
warped ridge
Ye, Haze is probably gonna start dying to ability creep if they release more heroes that are CC heavy
Tbf tho not sure how much that'll happen in lane since Haze usually isn't a kill lane anyways
Well
On the flipside with the way souls work, Haze does have a slight moment like Riven ult where they probably lose most of the time and the moment they hit their ult they have a window to try to get their one kill
Pocket is also funneh cause they can just briefcase the entire ult
warm sonnet
These would better than the current ones imo
They are all very small and same-shaped
quaint kernel
Welp bebop un-nerfed
jaunty garden
?
quaint kernel
Stack cap was removed, scaling increased overall, and minions no longer die immediately so Bebop can still bomb them
+uppercut buffs from the other patch
jaunty garden
I dislike infinite scaling as a mechanic.
rich grove
he loses stacks on death so it's a lot less linear
quaint kernel
Bomb build is honestly not the problem, his gun build is way way more powerful
jaunty garden
I agree but that doesn't mean I like the design space it inhabits.
wintry arrow
quaint kernel
He's probably stronger now
Honestly
But yeah I play the gun build I hook enemies to just melt them rather than bomb them
So I'm very happy with the new changes to uppercut
edgy fog
I gave the Mirage spirit stack build on a bot game or two
it's interesting, but it's pretty slow to ramp up and takes a while to really have the chance to chunk folk
finite patrol
love to press 3 for a double kill
buoyant plank
I still don't like how his hook gets blocked by creeps now but eh
it shoulda been something they added later, when they've made the ability work well
jaunty garden
I think it should also get blocked by towers
Hooking people through a tower is dumb
buoyant plank
towers I'd be fine with but the hit detection on creeps is annoying
magic summit
Tbh I do think that maybe towers and walkers should block more things
magic summit
Is this why they nerfed Paradox https://fixupx.com/IntelDeadlock/status/1845124991827787933
rich grove
who up deading they lock
finite patrol
if this queue ever pops
edgy fog
Kissin it out
finite patrol
went 6-1-13 in a 5 v 6 cus our seven was leading and teammates asked him to stop then he afked and quit šŖ
mirage too hard to kill
rich grove
I'M FUCKING BALLING
finite patrol
how's the 1.9x scaling splatter
rich grove
in a word: whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy did they buff it
I can lob basketballs from across the map and still hit people for 400, +200 from reverb
this is without even getting to the fact that ivy giving out escalating exposure to people like it's candy is uhh
pretty good
and then god forbid you have echo shard as well, you just turn people into paste
jaunty garden
...Or into goo?
finite patrol
in a word: whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy did they buff it
that's 5 words but yr not wrong
rich grove
popping people up with puddle and backhanding them with gooball has gotta be one of the most obnoxious things you can hit someone with in this game
finite patrol
a good viscous is completely obnoxious to play against yes
getting punches multiple times and then if you were gonna kill them no you weren't they are leaving
rich grove
"i got a license here that says 'nuh uh'"
buoyant plank
Viscous do be ballin
rich grove
I GOT A GLOCK IN MY RARI
buoyant plank
I can lob basketballs from across the map and still hit people for 400, +200 fro...
You have no idea how close I was to posting that video when you said this
rich grove
yeah that's literally how it feels playing this character
frail jasper
Remember to shout KOBE when you lob Splatter into the sky and catch a fleeing enemy at their base with it.
twilit roost
How I feel when I solo Ult someone as Haze
edgy fog
I want to try something but I don't know if it will work
the horrible terrible very bad thing known as "duraction extended M&K disarm"
near current
has anyone done a formal paper on why this game is so peak yet
lavish grove
Man I really wanna see that cowboy character some more
We donāt really have a proper revolver character
All the characters with revolvers have revolver shotguns
warped ridge
has anyone done a formal paper on why this game is so peak yet
valve design
moba from dotaisms
attractive characters
goofy abilities
parkour
Deadlock
rich grove
All the characters with revolvers have revolver shotguns
geist
finite patrol
Mirage?
a character with an actual 6 shot clip would be interesting
probably busted with scavenger though
jaunty garden
Yeah no it's almost a sniper rifle revolver instead
She's probably my best character alongside seven
lavish grove
Do you ever really build gun items?
I feel like I exclusively see spirit builds for her
lavish grove
Her 1 does so much fucking damageā¦
near current
wow playing wraith was the most boring thing in the universe
finite patrol
her whole kit does way too much damage
she's too strong rn imo
bullies in lane scales well into late game
wraith is fun imo but she is very gun centric
the teleport and cards are really fun abilities to use well
lavish grove
bullies in lane scales well into late game
It really does feel like if you ever get hit by her 3 youāre just, gonna lose the next skirmish in lane
finite patrol
she's definitely a monster rounds healing rite type lane opponent where I just huddle far back so I can dodge the bombs
I don't know if I feel confident beating a good opponent on Geist with like anyone except warden
lavish grove
Honestly how do you like, win as warden?
I always feel like if my opponent is any good warden just doesnāt work
finite patrol
his gun is nuts
lavish grove
Mostly in how his root is impossible to land so long as they have literally any stamina
finite patrol
flask removes stamina. hex+point blank slow is pretty effective at preventing them from leaving
knockdown works really well with the snare as well
lavish grove
I see
I probably should flask before cuffs tbh
I really like maxing cuffs on warden first but at least in lane yah that stamina removal is crazy
finite patrol
I max cuffs last
lavish grove
I just love the damage boost on rooted people
finite patrol
As you mentioned it can be unreliable against good players so I prefer to focus on flask ult and shield
lavish grove
It makes his solo kill potential so much stronger
Especially since I also tend to get headshot booster
finite patrol
you don't need it just shoot them
lavish grove
And like, itās obviously easy to land headshots on still people
lavish grove
you don't need it just shoot them
Guess so
finite patrol
his gun is super easy to hit close up and does ridiculous damage before any scaling
lavish grove
Any important items to rush?
rich grove
the two builds I favour as warden are veilwalker superspeed warden and majestic leap ultspam warden
you basically always want enchanter's bartier
lavish grove
Just run really fast warden?
finite patrol
slowing hex helps you kill in lane. fleet foot is crucial to his playstyle. headhunter is probably my first 3k if I'm doing well
improved burst is huge on flask
if you're stomping grab inhibitor and gg
rich grove
Just run really fast warden?
the idea is that you can stack 2 speedboost + veilwalker + fleetfoot to run everyone doqn
it's like mirage tp but you can go to anyone at any point on the map with like 20s cooldown
lavish grove
That sounds very funny tbh
finite patrol
shields are also just the most efficient ehp in early/ midgame
lavish grove
āLocal bobby runs down lane, gets a triple killā
rich grove
you have "Haze gets ricochet" level powerspikes at 3k instead of 9.2
lavish grove
Oh Jesus
rich grove
either with Veilwalker where you start dictating the terms of every engagement you find yourself in, or with Maj Leap where you jump in off the top rope, press 4 at the peak, then you're in lifestealing their entire team
lavish grove
What does Veilwalker do besides speed again?
lavish grove
Ohhh
rich grove
which is the main thing
jaunty garden
Do you ever really build gun items?
Yeah most of her good builds have a decent chunk of gun
The daggers are a universal steroid
rich grove
you also get temp invis
lavish grove
The daggers are a universal steroid
Oh shit I never knew
rich grove
The daggers are a universal steroid
I also cannot stress enough, both Warden and Geist guns do six billion damage on a headshot
lavish grove
I always just assumed it buffed abilities
This explains, so many fights Iāve had with her
finite patrol
oh yeah enduring sprint is crucial on warden too
rich grove
fluke headshotting with hs booster on warden and geist is a large amount of their respective poke earlygame
finite patrol
fluke? heh...
rich grove
I run QSR on 1 instead
part of it is that I play Warden very hit and run
so at most getting 2 mags on a fairly slowfiring gun is pretty much all I need
finite patrol
I never build active reload on anyone because if I only build it sometimes I cannot remember it
jaunty garden
I build Warden like a bruiser tank on the other hand
rich grove
active reload works better on sprayers like Haze I find
lavish grove
Alright
jaunty garden
He kinda just can be built almost any way and it's his
Good
He just has a generically useful kit
Good gun good spirit scaling good armor scaling
rich grove
he is a ball of stats with a stupid gun
jaunty garden
More like Swain imo
lavish grove
Just a stat check with his āwin every 1v1 zoneā via his root
jaunty garden
Abrams is more like trundle
Warden has a lot more flexibility
As where trundle and Abrams kinda only have one direction
rich grove
one of the most generically Good to Great heroes in the game at every stage
good in lane with sudden kill potential if someone fucks up on their dashjump out of 3
finite patrol
Love laning against Haze 1v1 and she ultimately me and I just stand there and keyboard roll 1 2 3 z 4 and then kill her
rich grove
1 is some of the cheapest poke in the game
lavish grove
Hazeās realizing they get a free heavy punch because of it has made my life noticeably worse
rich grove
people are generally smart enough to make getting out of dodge their no 1 priority if they get cursed
but also sometimes you catch them dashing forward too aggressively without extra stam
ggs shake my hand
jaunty garden
But yeah regarding geist she builds a number of 1250 gun items and often some 3k and then pivots full spirit late game
Berserker is very common
lavish grove
Makes sense
rich grove
yeah, with rank 1 on knives she has a permanent 50% wep buff
jaunty garden
Obviously so is the spirit steroid on shooting things like mystic shot
rich grove
because she can just keep punching herself
lavish grove
Does spirit shot scale with spirit?
lavish grove
Good to know
jaunty garden
The big one is the uh
Pulse damage one
They actually just nerfed it because it was scaling too hard with cdr and spirit
Also item cooldowns and duration and stuff also scale with cdr and duration
lavish grove
Mystic reverb?
jaunty garden
No the Sunfire item
magic summit
Torment pulse
rich grove
torment pulse nerf got reverted
lavish grove
Oh nice
rich grove
so back to pulsing with cdr again?
lavish grove
Abrams gaming
jaunty garden
Oh yeah torment pulse
rich grove
Viscous gamin
jaunty garden
That was the name
rich grove
it's a good item
accelerates farming, sustains the heroes that are always in face-smelling distance, procs anything that cares about spirit damage
very high value 3k
jaunty garden
But yeah my gun items on geist are mystic shot, soul shredder, berserker
And then if you get really fed you get a spiritual overflow eventually
rich grove
gotta be reverb or ee for me on geist imo
rich grove
ee with dot on her bombs is just so stupid
jaunty garden
You get spiritual overflow after those
rich grove
people be melting
jaunty garden
Also probably after leech
finite patrol
the dot on her bombs is just unnecessarily oppressive imo
why does she need that much area denial
jaunty garden
It's like a sixth 6200 tier item on her lmao
rich grove
gun geist is probably doable but why would you ever when all her abilities got buff out the wazoo
jaunty garden
Leech, inhibitor, drain bullets, reverb, ee, boundless all probably come first?
lavish grove
gun geist is probably doable but why would you ever when all her abilities got b...
Yeehaw howdy howdy howdy build
rich grove
bullet resist shred, slowing bullets, mystic slow, headhunter, etc
jaunty garden
Yeah why I get the two spirit buffing 1250s and then berserker just because the synergy with her is nuts
finite patrol
I wonder if we'll get more 9750 items
lavish grove
Are there any already?
finite patrol
boundless spirit
rich grove
there's a shitton of wildly powerful aoes that get so big they just eat teamfights, the recent Seven buff added yet another one for no reason
lavish grove
Ohhh
I forgot how expensive that is when you havenāt built the other spirit items
jaunty garden
Yeah
rich grove
I want them to make a boundless spirit for fire rate, which I can be trusted with as I never play a character whose primary scaling comes from fire rate.
rich grove
Please do this Icefrog, I am an impartial observer who can be trusted to make good decisions.
lavish grove
I want them to make a boundless spirit for fire rate, which I can be trusted wit...
What is your opinion on Wraith and Haze Thresshette?
jaunty garden
I feel like one of the big things with spirit being so good is it has really good upgrade paths
finite patrol
"no comment"
jaunty garden
As where gun and vitality usually have to buy whole items
rich grove
What is your opinion on Wraith and Haze Thresshette?
Talk to my lawyers.
finite patrol
yeah spirit has so much going for it rn
near current
what we really need is a healing nova t4 item
rich grove
As where gun and vitality usually have to buy whole items
for some reason rapid rounds doesn't upgrade into swift striker, despite them both giving pure fire rate
lavish grove
Ok but actually there should be one for melee damage. I have no external motivations for this besides health for the game
jaunty garden
I would like to see more support items tbh
rich grove
they are literally just split into two for no good reason
finite patrol
give me more auras pls
lavish grove
for some reason rapid rounds doesn't upgrade into swift striker, despite them bo...
Thatās actually the most annoying part of this game
They really should
finite patrol
a T4 melee item would be coolio
jaunty garden
I mean no there are way more annoying things like the existence of bebop and viscous
lavish grove
what are they so scared of
They fear haze players unburned
finite patrol
also why does it give -5% bullet resist
EE should give -12% spirit resist
rich grove
so funny when HVM built into headhunter
truly the most inexplicable patch they were ever responsible for
lavish grove
Wait that was a change?
jaunty garden
Yeah the fact that the gun upgrades give minus gun resist and the only other item that gives a downside is the auto revive is very weird
near current
my entire life changed when i realized that you should be buying early game items based on what resists they give
rich grove
bullet is just inexplicably held back in a way spirit isn't
jaunty garden
I think it's because they want everyone's gun to be good
But they don't want everyone to build gun
lavish grove
Also how spirit has an item that removes spirit resist with spirit damage but gun needs an item that removes gun resist with spirit damage
rich grove
there are a bunch of insanely powerful sideboard items against bullet like Active Fire or Escalating Resilience and then spirit just dumps on it even harder
with Suppressor/Mystic Slow etc
finite patrol
Active fire?
jaunty garden
They need to be ok with some guns just being worse imo
jaunty garden
Return fire
finite patrol
it does have an active
rich grove
it does
lavish grove
They need to be ok with some guns just being worse imo
Eh, I kinda feel like they canāt do this until lanes and roles are more defined
Like atm everyone is placed randomly against everyone else
rich grove
it's already just a thing
finite patrol
don't define roles or lanes pls ty
jaunty garden
Like imo some characters should just have worse guns or better guns and that's ok
finite patrol
I like my chaos gobli ffa
jaunty garden
Just like some characters have worse spirit scaling or better spirit scaling
rich grove
Ivy, Geist, debatably Haze have pretty bad anti-creep guns early
lavish grove
And that kinda means if thereās to much of a difference of power of gun some matchups become pretty unwinnable early
jaunty garden
Nah
lavish grove
don't define roles or lanes pls ty
I mean, itās a moba
jaunty garden
You can compensate with other stats
lavish grove
If valve doesnāt, the playerbase will
finite patrol
yeah let the playerbase do it
rich grove
playing random shit in random roles is half the fun of dota
jaunty garden
Like geist even if her gun was worse would have great lane presence
rich grove
hypercarry wisp is a classic
lavish grove
Also yah I meant like, the playerbase will eventually get good enough to know what characters are good in what lanes and why
jaunty garden
Because her abilities are just cracked
finite patrol
I fucking hated playing lol and getting yelled at for doing something unconventional
lavish grove
Not valve will force all infernusās green
rich grove
also some characters are just dogshit early already
jaunty garden
You can have characters with worse guns and still have early game
Yeah mirage is just bad early for instance
lavish grove
Yah but only so much
jaunty garden
It's ok
rich grove
Mirage is absolutely crazy early I find
jaunty garden
But right now almost every gun has about the same total item scaling
near current
can they start pumping out a new character every other week im bored š
jaunty garden
I mean I play seven and geist so
My concept of what is good in lane might be warped
lavish grove
But right now almost every gun has about the same total item scaling
I mean that isnāt really true. Guns do vary a lot in power and scaleability
jaunty garden
My understanding was they pretty much all were within like 2-4% the same?
And most of the difference was in abilities
Not base gun stats
lavish grove
Iām like 90% sure guns have very different base stats
They at least feel like they do
jaunty garden
I know some have more or less damage but that's pretty much always balanced out by rof
Oh and shotguns
Shotguns are all about the same but are obviously spec'd differently
And then I think vindicta has less damage falloff?
And of course we have bebop hit scan vs some of the slower projectiles
lavish grove
Iām pretty sure Vindicta actually has more falloff weirdly enough
jaunty garden
Oh yeah actually there are a couple outliers
Most characters have mid sixty base gun dpa
Dps
Dynamo has 58 at the lowest
And Warden and McGinnis have the most at almost 80
Oh and mnk also has 80
Woah no actually grey talon has the lowest
55
Did not expect that I suppose all his DPS is just in his steroids
Woahhhh Kelvin is by far the highest at 84
lavish grove
Thatās surprising
magic summit
If valve doesnāt, the playerbase will
I really doubt there is going to be anything hard defined in this like there is in dota or lol
jaunty garden
Yeah the way you get money/exp is too different tbh
finite patrol
I win a lot of lanes as mirage. I don't win a lot of lanes as mirage against Geist or Seven lol. Those characters are cracked laners
jaunty garden
There's no way for someone to "support" as in be low econ like there is in other games really
Since you just get money for being near other people getting money
jaunty garden
I win a lot of lanes as mirage. I don't win a lot of lanes as mirage against Gei...
Yeah like I said probably I'm biased lmao
finite patrol
Also there aren't really cheap high impact items that help your team and don't scale like in dota
jaunty garden
There's some mid game items that do like knockdown
magic summit
Even of the items that can be called support the most expensive one is rescue beam. Even building all healing just quickly you stop having anything else "support" to spend on
finite patrol
yeah but not enough to like build around so much
jaunty garden
Also lack of consumables
finite patrol
unless you have a kit like viscous
jaunty garden
Supports in dota and league are pretty much defined by spending so much of their money on stuff no one else does
As where like, even if you're a big DPS threat you might build a knockdown or whatever anyway
The utility active items also tend to have good stats
finite patrol
yeah.
finite patrol
@jaunty garden Can you share your Geist build with me?
rich grove
I got given the fucking business by mirage holy
this MU is 9-1 if you're haze and I can tell you that 9 is not haze
finite patrol
sleep dagger heavy punch? meet tornado scarab heavy punch
Haze is a hero I feel should always be in a duo
she's not the best laner and is easy to bully
rich grove
yeah she's pretty bad in lane
part of my melee experimentation was finding a solo Haze build that didn't feel like you were two items behind at all times
to some extent it succeeded but you were also so behind on tempo from having to sell all your relatively useless melee stuff lategame
mild flume
my laning has gone to shit tbh
maybe the matchmaker is just really balancing me up for later g ame play but I feel like I have not won a lane in a long time
finite patrol
the last several games I've played:
- I win my lane
- the rest of my team loses lane (12-0 bebop is real and he can hurt you)
- we get bullied for a while
- we turn it around and win after the enemy team loses a crucial team fight or three in a row
rich grove
mid-elo deadlock is a game of trying and failing to close the game out
mild flume
I think I'm on maybe 12-15 lanes lost in a row
rich grove
I'm not convinced anything matters while spawn timers are <60s
finite patrol
I think I'm on maybe 12-15 lanes lost in a row
oof
rich grove
at least if you're in the middle of the bell curve like I am
finite patrol
watcha playin
rich grove
in fairness I think your trios with me and my oomf have been him pulling us up into his elo bracket
he has literally 120 more hours in it than I do
mild flume
yeah lol I feel a bit bad jumping in and failing lanes with him around
rich grove
dw that's what I do too
finite patrol
Geist should definitely be easier to win lane with I feel
maybe you're just getting paired against people who are locked into laning
mild flume
thats interesting because ivy feels a bit better
geists gun feels a bit crappy and like it doesn't do much when I hit people
and sometimes if I shoot a crepe they can shoot the orb before the second bullet can come out
rich grove
geist's laning power is more from anti-players than her pretty mid securing
she really wants something like monster rounds or someone brave enough to go in and punch everything, people legit aim like they've been raised on kovaaks and gfuel from birth
you can blow up the wave with 1 but if enemy wraith just m1s all the orbs you're still losing all that money
I usually just try and harrass people out with mystic burst 1
mild flume
hmmm that makes sense
rich grove
then some combo of monster rounds, extra regen and heal rite
mild flume
yeah heal rite I always get greedy with
rich grove
it's also a lot less bad this patch to sit under your tower because of all the changes
so just letting the wave push up to you where you can punch it free isn't the worst idea either
and you can control basically all the space with 1 since it has a very dubious relationship with LOS recognition
mild flume
I find if I'm trying to last hit under tower
they push up and shoot me
esp if I fall behind on health
rich grove
it's definitely a problem vs. characters like pocket or lash who can just 100-0 you without caring about tower at all
with the +20% player dps tower's pretty spicy for less bursty characters to deal with though
buoyant plank
Got this in my reccs and was not prepared for the camera lmao https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TK3_QvI84w0
Now I'm just gonna imagine every viscous player being in a gym fuckboy shirt
jaunty garden
I mean like they just shoot me as I try and cs under tower
Until they get to a couple thousand, bomb on both those characters should kinda enforce respect and space
They do a lot of damage early
Geist gun is also really really good for pvp
You just dome people when they poke their head out
And 1 the wave
And if they trade you get the souls and if they shoot the souls you can often just drive them straight out of lane
Plus 2 forces people behind cover or you get the best trade imaginable
If anyone tanks a full 2 while you're shooting them they should pretty much die
lavish grove
Wait were the bebop nerfs reverted?
jaunty garden
Most of them yeah
jaunty garden
Yeah
lavish grove
Bebop š š
tardy sundial
icefrog game
lavish grove
Whatās icefrog?
jaunty garden
Balancer for DotA 2
lavish grove
Ohhhh
jaunty garden
He's known for waffling and also for a "everything is imba, nothing is imba" philosophy
You should expect everything to be as fucked up as possible to not break the game
And it's just is my fucked upness utilized to fuck you up more than yours is
"reasonable" is not on the menu
magic summit
Crucially his hook still hits creeps and his ult duration doesn't scale off spirit still
edgy fog
Had a thought and tested, interesting that increased range increases the distance people have to move to escape Warden's E
buoyant plank
anyone happen to have a name for a current patch viscous, bebop, and mcginnis build?
rich grove
the "concerns of the deep? i'm [x]" builds are up to date and pretty reliable for viscous
there are four for melee, cube, ball and smaller ballmaxxing
frail jasper
"livsey" has a good viscous build, as well as the Concerns set yeah
finite patrol
also wondering what a good geist build is
mild flume
Until they get to a couple thousand, bomb on both those characters should kinda ...
I find bomb doesn't do great damage at low low level
tbh
esp given the self damage
buoyant plank
the "concerns of the deep? i'm [x]" builds are up to date and pretty reliable fo...
which one you think is best just starting out?
rich grove
ballmaxxing requires you to know how to drive the ball effectively, and cube requires you to have teammates worth supporting, neither of which are doable at low level
I would thus recommend gooping or punchin
with the recent buffs to 1's scaling gooping is pretty crazy
jaunty garden
I find bomb doesn't do great damage at low low level
I do not find that to be a problem personally but YMMV
Maybe you're just giving free shots for the enemy?
fair dagger
Iām really bad at this game maybe
edgy fog
Same. Anything in particular you struggle with?
buoyant plank
I really wish there was a way to filter builds by current patch
really wish goo ball would cancel on melee input
doing ball stun into charge melees a bit annoying
Did find a better way to set up my abilities though
QERF
with C being melee and V being parry
finite patrol
I really need to remap.
1234
qwer
asdf
zxcv
is really not working for me
near current
do u have mouse buttons?
buoyant plank
You could also do the mezii gambit if you're absolutely insane
finite patrol
yeah only a couple
buoyant plank
foward on mouse2
finite patrol
I am not, yet
buoyant plank
I also used to play with someone that had forward/back on mouse 1 and 2
jump on a side button, space to shoot
buoyant plank
space to shoot is also more of a thing in sim stuff like arma
to keep the aim steady when sniping
finite patrol
aha
buoyant plank
and it just stayed with em from there
I really wish I could bind heavy melee to a different button than light
but I can't seem to find the binds to it
buoyant plank
and all content I can find about making custom keybinds are just people trying to do super optimal shit with it
like guaranteeing slide parry
rich grove
space to shoot?!??
space to shoot is some aim trainer shit
helps with not tensing up on the mouse, weirdly
buoyant plank
what is it I hear about shivs passive fucking him over sometimes
do they mean his 3?
magic summit
It's very funny
buoyant plank
also I found it extremely funny that I saw the talon trap wasn't invisble to enemies because that means people havej ust been walking into it
speaking of pocket, any build names I should search for
near current
crackhead
rich grove
I've walked into talon trap intentionally a good number of times just so I can get it off the field
buoyant plank
It's more seeing someone walk into it and then get melted
finite patrol
do you get ee on mcginnis turret build?
rich grove
yeah no explanation for that beyond "head hempty"
don't see any reason why you wouldn't get EE especially if people are getting shot by multiples
seems like an easy way to stack it
finite patrol
yeah I mean I usually pop them intentionally but sometimes I just think they are Geist aoe and try to hop thru em
rich grove
EE is just busto
buoyant plank
watching a replay of the zerggy build now and going infuser close quarters off the rip is disgusting lmao
rich grove
pocket just does 5839058903489108 spirit damage early for no reason
buoyant plank
almost as disgusting as that haircut
rich grove
infuser to just double that outta nowhere seems good
buoyant plank
they also take that much spirit damage
astral stone
has the game felt extremely laggy for anyone else?
rich grove
they need to take more
buoyant plank
only character that starts with negative spirit resist lol
rich grove
:V
near current
infuser is bait imo
buoyant plank
it just makes you extremely chonky
rich grove
is pocket another one of those 'mag scales with spirit' types
haze also doing the same thing is why i'm unironically buying enduring spirit/extra spirit as early 500s on her
buoyant plank
no
but yeah infuser>cloak>briefcase is such an option select that should rarely go against you if someone tries to gank you
no matter if they chase the cloak or stay they're gonna get hit by the briefcase which will heal you a bunch
would like to hear your opinion of why you don't like infuser though
mild flume
Maybe you're just giving free shots for the enemy?
I think there is a bit of that
but like also the bomb feels like it needs a bit before it does good damage still
jaunty garden
IDK it's huge and does at least twice what you pay in HP for it
rich grove
it's 100 damage, 30 self-damage base
rich grove
I think abrams is 580 now, still does about 15% of his health
jaunty garden
If it feels bad to pay HP for things you might just not want to play geist
rich grove
haze does not appreciate losing a fifth of her base health either
jaunty garden
I'm often just doing half or a third of my own HP bar
buoyant plank
lol it kept the search when I switched character
rich grove
getting the "oh shit you took a bunch of damage" ding repeatedly from this giant ass aoe is big pain
jaunty garden
Btw someone asked about geist builds next time I log in I'll try to make one for you
rich grove
nikheizen
jaunty garden
I haven't been logging in much the last couple days been watching league worlds
buoyant plank
I know there's a couple of wraith heads in here, what should I look for in a build
jaunty garden
I really like the reload item on her
rich grove
wraith kind of builds herself
active reload and qsr on card gets you most of the way to turbofarm
jaunty garden
That's the main one I don't see on a lot of the builds
rich grove
then tesla bullets as your first 3k
rich grove
quicksilver?
buoyant plank
so something like wakutas?
jaunty garden
You can shoot to make a card and then card to shoot
rich grove
yeah that's what I mean by qsr (quicksilver reload), apologies for not unabbreviating
rich grove
I think tesla should be your first 3k instead of rapid recharge
near current
would like to hear your opinion of why you don't like infuser though
i just wish i was getting an item with better stats
jaunty garden
I make Tesla instead of ricochet
near current
but ill play it a couple games, didnt try it out much tbh
rich grove
just so you can get farmed asap
but focussing extra charge instead makes some amount of sense for wraith if you're primarily focussed on split-pushing and killing whoever they send for 1v1
ult -> full auto -> throw 4 cards in a row hurts a fucking lot
near current
custom icons from ToastyGhostey :)
jaunty garden
Yeah I like cooldown in general over the slot specific one
Personally
More Ults and teleport
I play her pretty run around being obnoxious though
More than the hard split push kill
rich grove
teleport is an amazing tool and I've seen people build combat barrier on her to great effect, taking advantage of the 600-odd bullet shield you get for pressing 2 at max level
jaunty garden
Speaking of which I don't see veilguard
rich grove
veilwalker?
jaunty garden
Yeah that one
rich grove
this doesn't seem to be using barrier at all
jaunty garden
I build that on her always
buoyant plank
custom icons from ToastyGhostey :)
loving the ivy one
jaunty garden
I think that leech is probably too early too?
I'd fill in with more 3200 gun and spirit items
rich grove
I think this build as a whole seems to be focussing on instagibbing one target in split pushes as fast as possible
jaunty garden
I like spiritual overflow more than they do too I think
Yeah I build more for overall DPS and elusiveness
rich grove
shadow weave + curse is kind of a "I want one person in particular to uninstall the game" combo
jaunty garden
I want to fight people not just kill one and run
rich grove
and I mean having fought competent yamatos: I understand
jaunty garden
Her 3 utility is really good in team fights
rich grove
but also she's wildly versatile
jaunty garden
Yeah
rich grove
even if her ult does kind of push you towards split-pushing early
jaunty garden
So I guess mostly no I don't like this one much but it's a viable style for her
buoyant plank
shadow weave + curse is kind of a "I want one person in particular to uninstall ...
but they're not playing bebop :v
jaunty garden
IDK the ult tool is also incredible for ganks
rich grove
up to you really, I think we've given some good suggestions about what to prioritize if you want to be more involved in teamfights as opposed to shitkicking the other carry
jaunty garden
I like just showing up behind people and ulting someone and pushing the lane a lot
rich grove
it's really hard to go wrong with wraith if you just buy generically good stuff
rich grove
she's like the shoto of this game
jaunty garden
Otherwise you'll do good
rich grove
basically every generic tool you need to be good
aoe harrass/poke tool for lane that can deal big chunks of burst lategame, difficult-to-stop gtfo button, team buff, ult that goes from killing your lane opponent to killing everyone in a rejuv or patron pit
buoyant plank
yeah I just prefer having like, a build though
rich grove
i'll dig up whatever i use when i get home
might be worth keeping a list of reputable builds in the back pocket
jaunty garden
Yeah sorry I mostly don't use like fixed builds at this point
So much can be relevant to buy
rich grove
all my haze builds end up being 50% sideboard tech -_-
buoyant plank
I mean like half decent builds seems to be "buy this when relevant"
rich grove
here's something that looks pretty reasonable
buoyant plank
what is it called?
rich grove
"kizzle gun build"
kind of confused why veilwalker if you're not using non-reactive barriers but whatever
the rest looks Goody Nuff
buoyant plank
getting real tired of leavers
had someone leave 150 souls in
my new keybinds are fucking me something fierce too, need time to get used to them so I don't accidentally ult when I wanna melee :v
jaunty garden
Yeah that looks fine
I don't think I agree with healbane being core in principle but in practice it probably is
This game has so much healing
rich grove
think the more practical use is just for that big chonky heal on kill
as much as it is infernus/mo/dynamo/ivy/geist/oh god that's a lot of heroes.jpg
buoyant plank
I still find the searching for match text really funny
"12+ players in queue" you don't have to be so humble
finite patrol
š
rich grove
š«”
buoyant plank
Love when I get left alone in a lane against ivy and seven 2 min in
rich grove
i fucking love getting pelted by aoes rahhhhh
buoyant plank
And then the russians get mad that for some reason I'm not doing well 2v1 against two great pushers while they're refusing to gank
Why is it always the russians, why are they always so mad
is only game
it was a vindicta too that I started lane with, motherfucker you don't even touch the ground why did you leave
finite patrol
š
the enemy lash this game after they tried to jump slam me when I got low in lane for the 2nd time "tornado hits in the air?!"
rich grove
rashidooooooooooooooo
buoyant plank
This is what one good midboss steal does
buoyant plank
love losing because the entire team doesn't farm at all, including the wraith
buoyant plank
This was an absolutely disgusting comp to play against, that kudzu+infernus on dynamo ult just killed everything
finite patrol
i fear the day i play against an ivy geist seven comp
went 7-2-11 on my first time as geist
very fun hero but good god is she ever slow
slowest hero in the game i think
magic summit
My analysis after the patch is that Jesus Christ my gun for laning as pocket is so much harder to push anything now
Every solo lane has been misery if they know to just shove me to tower and plink at me
jaunty garden
Pocket needs to use the absolute absurdity of his 1 to harass people into giving him lane control mostly in my experience
But between 1 and 3 it should be really hard to just shove you in
warped ridge
Can I have Tohu Haze build? 
jaunty garden
This is my characters basically
I'm comfortable making a full build for the ones in purple and comfortable giving advice on the ones in yellow
@rich grove Concept: Maybe we make a pinned post with a build we recommend for each character?
I feel like that would be pretty useful for newer folks
finite patrol
thank you!
rich grove
<@279334925474201600> Concept: Maybe we make a pinned post with a build we recom...
was half considering making a spreadsheet or similar
magic summit
Pocket needs to use the absolute absurdity of his 1 to harass people into giving...
They nerfed the range of it early by quite a lot in the same patch that they made the fall off on the shotgun a lot more severe, so unless I am also just laning against someone that needs to be up close it's pretty easy for them to just mag dump the wave from range
magic summit
rich grove
oh cool they added bebop
jaunty garden
?
rich grove
jaunty garden
Added mine in
finite patrol
Mirage isn't even on the list
rich grove
ngl
i was legitimately going off of the meme sly just posted
and added winston
until i realised what i was typing
jaunty garden
WAIT WINSTON IS THERE LMAO
I didn't notice lmao
Honestly I'd love if someone had a gun like Winston
XD
Fuck aiming
finite patrol
Cool I added my mirage build.
Been practicing the movement tech and oh god why didn't I start learning this sooner.
You can get so fast.
rich grove
WOOSH
jaunty garden
One of the reasons I like Geist is her movement is so bad
So I never have to worry about movement tech as much
XD
finite patrol
she's very artillery-pilled
jaunty garden
Added in my Shiv build
That's it for characters i'm confident enough to submit a build for though I thin
magic summit
Reminder for people that care the ranked queue starts up tomorrow
rich grove
or tonight for oceaniachads
magic summit
I am hoping my arm isn't fucked up tomorrow to actually make a good attempt
finite patrol
I want to get better at more than 2 characters before trying ranked
I feel like i have mirage and warden pretty zeroed in but I don't feel as confident on anyone else
rich grove
kelvin is like evil warden