Prototype Pattern Groups

[tame wharf]

These are all extremally useful tips Valk, thank you

[vagrant grotto]

Lastly: Read this: https://pestopublications.itch.io/pestos-guide-to-testing

There are productive ways to test and constructive ways to offer feedback, and this helps with those

People giving feedback can’t control what you make; disregard them when you think it’ll compromise your vision

[tame wharf]

Cheers, I'll give it a read

[muted blaze]

This has been a godsend for my stuff

I do find it somewhat funny that I already knew a decent amount of the knowledge but having the clarifications is good. And the resources it provides and how it spells it out is very useful. It changed how I tackled dealing with my projects testing and has also influenced how I try to give data to Valk for PPG stuff

[silent wedge]

I'd been doing casual bug logs but nothing that comprehensive and that should help tighten it up a bit

[vagrant grotto]

from the playtest today, one note amongst many positive notes: Ire's Ruinous Reactor never came up! None of them became Exposed. I suppose that's fine and emphasizes how it's a bit of a "Ribbon" or low-likelihood event anyway

[vagrant grotto]

Bedevil + Excruciating Transposition Thoughts:

• Gaining Overshield from Bedevil only to lose it after using ExTrans is two fiddly steps that wind up largely counteracting each other, which is irritating
• I could say "Can't use ExTrans if you have Overshield" or "You lose all OS after using ExTrans" but that means that the Ire is vulnerable when it needs its defenses the most
• I don't want it to simply be nothing but damage seems awkwardly unsynergistic
• I'm considering adding a Self-Shred instead until the start of Ire's next turn, since it isn't an Armor Girly (despite me constantly thinking of it as clad in ebon, chitinous armor)

that way the "self-damage" vibe of Manticore is still present but less fiddly

Also as a note for the playtesters: Abhorrent Obelisk circa v1.22 technically is Burst 3, but I decided ahead of the combat that Burst 2 was healthier, and v1.23 will reflect that

[ashen crown]

either that or the Ire needs more abilities to gain self-heat

[vagrant grotto]

oh, I did consider changing Excruciating Transposition from Recharge 5+ to Self Heat 2, tbh

[ashen crown]

Unfortunate the self damage eating into Overshield didn’t end up working out- I was hoping it would

[vagrant grotto]

I did too, but it just doesn't make a lot of sense

it means that I adjust its HP twice for zero gain

[ashen crown]

At the very least Self-Shred would make ExTrans after Overheating way more risky

Which is a positive imo- otherwise that Self-Destruct becomes pretty dangerous

[vagrant grotto]

exactly yeah, though tbf the real drawback will be that buddy Supports can't protect them as much

Priest's Dispersal Shield in particular would anti-synergize

[ashen crown]

I mean it’s a support in and of itself, is that such a bad thing?

[vagrant grotto]

Today, it would've made them slightly less resilient while adjacent to my !V! Bastion [K] friendly interdiction

[ashen crown]

If you want a penalty that seems pretty significant

[vagrant grotto]

not really IMO, I'm just noting it

like, I want it to be a little vulnerable

I want to emphasize that this is a reckless motherfucker

in any case: I'm glad that the Bad Rock elicited the reaction it did

Oh also! The Lock On on Ire’s Flail miss was well received. It was a consolation prize that provided psychological pressure: “okay it missed this round, but it’s more likely to hit next one!”

One playtester described it as falling in a similar vein to Scourer, which I can see

Frankly, a Vanguard-coded NPC applying psychological pressure to players is working exactly as intended

[silent wedge]

With ruinous reactor, does it even need the exposed condition do you think? Maybe it could be the next round instead in exchange for more payoff and not requiring exposed? Because for me the death explosion is the most evocative part of Manticore's vibe

For an NPC whose entire gameplan is to suicidally rush in and do as much damage as it possibly can before the enemy brings it down, always having that one final ace up the sleeve seems like a good thing for it to have

A big scary damage area is also very psychologically affecting even if there's basically no chance the players get caught in it.

[vagrant grotto]

I want it to be a sometimes food

[ashen crown]

Technically that’s not entirely true. An alive NPC is often more valuable than a dead one no matter how good the effect is. Its goal is moreso “be as near enemies as possible”.

[vagrant grotto]

Thinking about a new base feature for the Boombox

Acoustic Levitation
Trait
The Boombox ignores difficult terrain while it isn’t Prone. However, any push, pull, or knockback it receives is increased by 1.

[muted blaze]

Highly chuckable NPC

Wait knights can throw them further 🤣

[vagrant grotto]

Spotlight
System, Arcing, Recharge 5+, Quick Tech
The Boombox creates a Burst 2 area 10 spaces high in SENSORS until the end of the its next turn. It may extend the duration until the end of its next turn as a quick action. Upon creating or extending the area, hostile characters in the area must pass an ENGINEERING save or gain LOCK ON and become SHREDDED until they end their turn outside the area. 

Back on my Spotlight bullshit, now with 99% more Sustain

[dapper goblet]

Going to be running a nexus defense (for balance purposes, roughly a holdout) as the climactic non-boss battle for a campaign. Amounts of each are still in a bit of flux but:

• Anomaly Torrent (no formal optionals, but im stapling on a preview of a boss mechanic that creates orbs players have to intercept)
• Commander Ire (Legion of the Damned)
• Veteran Bombard (Feign Death, Hades Missiles)
• Exotic Leech (Realspace Extrusion, Sybiotic Doctrine Upgrade III, Chronotorus)
• Horror Zealot (Martyrdom, Superfluous Extremities)

I post here to ask if you need zealot or ire optionals tested in this sort of "I am going to bumrush the players" environment.

[vagrant grotto]

hmmm okay lemme think

[dapper goblet]

(or torrent i suppose but I'm kind of hacking open the torrent and using it in weird ways here)

[vagrant grotto]

Ire's been in flux so anything on it would be good

Legion of the Damned is good to test; I was gonna suggest the full action version of Rally the Righteous on Zealot but it may be overkill

that said, Rally is 100% bumrush

[dapper goblet]

I'll do it

I'm in full on ballbreaker mode at this point, I want to force out a couple of core powers and put them on the backfoot for the final boss

probably will cut Horror from the zealot accordingly

The commander Ires taking a bunch of damage from bombards and shrugging it off with leech/zealot overshields is going to be nasty

Ires are going to SLIGHTLY underperform in this fight because this team has weirdly absurdly good e-def across the board but it should be ok. Might chuck an extra +1 to hit on Legion (seriously outside of Toku the lowest e-def is THIRTEEN)

[vagrant grotto]

Legion is improved now though, the "bumrush" half is now deterministic

[dapper goblet]

Ah true

I think there's an issue with the Ire's lcp

[vagrant grotto]

ah fuck

[vagrant grotto]

oh yeah that

saw that yesterday

thanks for the reminder!

it should be 18

[umbral sluice]

oh THATS why I saw 28 health on the playtest yesterday lmao

[dapper goblet]

yea just cross-checked the PDF

[vagrant grotto]

I had to spot-fix that during the playtest yesterday

[dapper goblet]

Oh man

using the ire as a leech delivery system with excruciating

Putting that one in the file for another day.

ok, combat's tuesday. Will provide report on how Ire and Zealots perform in bumrush comps once available!

[vagrant grotto]

Hold on I may be cooking

Spotlight
System, Arcing, Quick Tech, 1/scene
The Boombox creates a Blast 2 area 10 spaces high in SENSORS. It may move the area up to 5 spaces as a quick action. Upon creating or moving the area, hostile characters in the area gain LOCK ON and must pass an ENGINEERING save or become SHREDDED until they end their turn outside the area.

The Boombox creates a Blast 2 area 10 spaces high in SENSORS that lasts until the Boombox is destroyed. It may move the area up to 5 spaces as a quick action. Upon creating or moving the area, hostile characters in the area gain LOCK ON and must pass an ENGINEERING save or be SHREDDED until they end their turn outside the area.

Okay this is feeling better. Pseudo deployable that lasts until the Boombox is destroyed, constrains the save effects to happen whenever the Boombox actually takes a quick action

[muted blaze]

It's kinda similar to skyhammer salvo

[vagrant grotto]

sort of, but not quite the same

[muted blaze]

Yee

Just an observation

[vagrant grotto]

you know

Imma make another tweak

[muted blaze]

I don't

That would have been funnier if I answered before you said you'd make another tweak

[vagrant grotto]

Create a Blast 2 area 10 spaces high in SENSORS that lasts until the Boombox is destroyed. It may move the area up to 5 spaces as a QUICK TECH action. Upon creating or moving the area, hostile characters must pass an ENGINEERING save or lose INVISIBLE and HIDDEN and gain SHREDDED. These effects last until they end their turn outside the area.

(minor readability edits)

We already have lots of Lock On in the kit, I don't think we need more

[muted blaze]

So anti hide and anti dodge

Sick

[vagrant grotto]

on top of shredded yeah

[muted blaze]

I meant to say anti armour

[vagrant grotto]

but it needs to PF2E Sustain™ the area in order to force another save

this is something I've noticed with zones, in that it's a lot more convenient to force the saves all at once

[muted blaze]

Yep

Oh wait

So there's no threat to moving through it

But it's basically saying "if you're here next turn you'll get blasted again"

Wait no...

Because you can still lose it by simply leaving the area

[vagrant grotto]

leaving the area and ending turn yes

the area exists as a "leave this area or suffer" to folks who fail their saves, but if you pass you're fine

[muted blaze]

Id like to test this at some point

[ashen crown]

Okay, that’s pretty sick tbh

[vagrant grotto]

Keep reading, I've rapidly iterated on it

[ashen crown]

Still keeps the general concept of “quick action to maintain.”

Do you think you might need to add an FAQ that the Spotlight can be moved “0 spaces”? Also, do characters in the Spotlights initial or final position make the save?

[vagrant grotto]

"moved 0 spaces" is fine

and noted, changed the wording from "Upon" to "After"

[vagrant grotto]

HIGH VOLTAGE (VETERAN)    Trait, 1/round

When an ally benefitting from POWER SURGE makes a weapon attack, all hostile characters in Burst 2 of the ally take 2/3/4 Energy AP damage.

taking what I've learned and applying it lol

the other "starts turn in area" effect is MOLOCH Drone and I think that's enough of a memorable threat on its own

[muted blaze]

Is this just Emperor core

I'm dumb

Sleep deprivation and heat stroke is real

[vagrant grotto]

Not quite?? I’m just moving triggers around

Please get rest and lots of water

That shits dangerous

[vagrant grotto]

@dapper goblet BTW If you run Ire soon before I release v1.23, try these changes:

• T2 Ire HP should be 18 (lol)
• Excruciating Transposition Shreds the Ire until the start of its next turn instead of dealing self-damage
• Add Overshield tag to Bedevil (if it matters)
• Abhorrent Obelisk HP changed to 5/8/10 and burst reduced to 2

[umbral sluice]

...does the overshield tag on NPCs even do anything? or is it just kind of there

[vagrant grotto]

It's one of those "futureproofing" things

[umbral sluice]

yeah that makes sense

[vagrant grotto]

if a homebrew says "things with Overshield Tag make you dance the chicken dance" yeah I wanna support that

[sudden cosmos]

Positively tilted the party TCB enjoyer with Forced Obsolescence today

And can confirm a spite with Memento Culpa is incredibly funny

Had players BCLing each other to get them adjacent to the spite

[dapper goblet]

Noted - I'll make the tweaks

[ashen crown]

Question: what PPG NPCs make the best NPC allies in y’all’s opinions?

Imo NPCs with too many “marker” gimmicks or heat output are probably not good, so unfortunately Mesmerist and Napalm aren’t good in my opinion. Kensei and Hatchet have setup but with the right loadouts there’s not a lot to track. And NPCs like Torrent and… no just Torrent actually, it has very little lingering effects so it’s a good one

[vagrant grotto]

literally all the supports

[dapper goblet]

Zealot would rip

[silent wedge]

Yeah, Zealot is great in general but in particular it's a good addition to a sitrep with a lot of invisible enemies

[vagrant grotto]

Besides the Supports:

1. Anchor is probably fine?
2. Knight is simple and clean
3. Howler's real easy to run, basically a melee sentinel
4. Torrent's probably fine but it moves around a lot

[viscid ingot]

New team up.

Knight with Throw + Boombox = Fastball Special

[south cypress]

Ire imo, especially with Legion of the Damned

[ashen crown]

I know I can’t replace a Zealot with a Legion of the Damned Ire, they occupy very different niches, especially when supporting a Demolisher and I’m already having the Zealot replace a Mirage… but I’m very tempted

[dapper goblet]

Scheduling got moved around but got through a big chunk of the combat yesterday. Ire, zealot, torrent is an excellent combo with a lot of dogpiling into an objective.

Initial read on ire is that I think its sensor range is a bit small or its speed a bit low. Transposition still does come with a cost and having it be so limited does make it feel a tad clunky for something that needs to get in and stay in melee range, and is the rare npc that has two good quicks it can take. I wonder if speed 3 sensors 8 would feel more interesting and a bit less clunky without increasing the power too much? Players were terrified when I said it had a EMR signature that was parallel to the teams lycan so make of that what you will.

Zealots work as advertised. Zeal is strong in practice but feels like a bunch of semi-disparate effects so it doesn’t read as quite as impressive as it plays as.

General thought: PPG plays with OS a lot more than base game NPCs. Querey how that interacts with shred vs self damage on ire’s teleport, particularly if you make the change I mention above wrt move speed and sensors.

I’ll collate more formal thoughts and an overall performance report next week when the combats over

[ashen crown]

Question: if one wanted to use the PPG sitreps- or if that’s not appropriate their philosophy- to weave a skill challenge about Talking Down the opposition (with skill checks and everything) into combat as an alternative win condition, how would you recommend approaching that?

[vagrant grotto]

Thanks for the feedback! I definitely was thinking about whether Ire should have Speed 5 base or not, yeah

[vagrant grotto]

I mean first things first, ask what the situation is and what the stakes are

[ashen crown]

Situation varies, I’m asking more in general tbh, but in terms of stakes winning via combat means the party you’re trying to persuade dies and you’ll move forward without their assistance (but possibly also without their interference), meanwhile winning via persuasion means potentially obtaining their aid later.

I’m just not entire sure which sitrep would work as a base for this.

[vagrant grotto]

I’m just lost on the fictional scenario here

Because the specifics are essential

Otherwise my answer is “yeah, probably”

[vagrant grotto]

But yeah if anything I’d use “Quell (Pankration)” with modifications that you’re trying to diplomacy the opponent while fighting them

Or layer diplomacy on top of combat I don’t know

Basically make diplomacy an alternative win condition

Dunno how you plan to do that since negotiations usually have broken down once bullets start flying, but yeah

But yeah you have to consider if having a full on tactical fight is actually necessary

Lot of it is judgment calls

[vagrant grotto]

Considering running another playtest this weekend

[serene tangle]

I'm interested. If you do, are you looking for anything specific to be tested?

[vagrant grotto]

Probably my Sunzi house rules

[serene tangle]

So, question about art of war. It says

"As a reaction at the start or end of any hostile or allied character’s turn within SENSORS and line of sight, expend a charge to teleport them up to 3 spaces in any direction, as long as they end in a free space in which they can stand."

It's referring to blink anchor charges, right?

[vagrant grotto]

Yes

Hang on

[vagrant grotto]

Okay it doesn’t expend any charges, that was a copy paste error

It would just expend the core power

[serene tangle]

Got it

Not sure what the issue is, but I made an LL2 sunzi real quick, and for some reason it says your variant of the frame is missing a required license to pilot it at both LL2 and LL3 of the sunzi license. (Official sunzi doesn't have the error when I checked, not sure if it's on my end or not)

[vagrant grotto]

Might be a v3 issue

[serene tangle]

Got it, I'll just ignore the error then

[vagrant grotto]

Aight my weekend has properly freed up, anyone available for a playtest on either <t:1777744800:F> or <t:1777831200:F>? I have Quothe so far

[umbral sluice]

I'm good for Sunday

[void wave]

free on Sunday, but not Saturday

[vagrant grotto]

@serene tangle you good for Sunday?

[tame wharf]

I'd be good for Saturday but it looks like everyone is doing it on Sunday 😢

[serene tangle]

Yeah Sunday works for me

Actually either day works for me tbh

[vagrant grotto]

Three players is quorum, I’ll make a thread soon

[vagrant grotto]

Will happily take a 4th volunteer of course

[sudden cosmos]

Hello

Wait Sunday

Uh... Should work? May not.

An hour later would be much safer

But I won't ask for people to stall on my behalf

[vagrant grotto]

@umbral sluice @serene tangle @void wave are you all okay starting with an hour later, or would you all prefer to start at the normal time, and maybe have @sudden cosmos join partway into the session?

[void wave]

hour later is ok with me

[vagrant grotto]

And Isa would you be okay hopping in late in the latter case?

I can make either case work just need folks’ thumbs up

[umbral sluice]

I'm good to start an hour later

provided it doesnt go on for like 5 hours which I doubt it will

but yeah thats good by me

[vagrant grotto]

Just need verification from Quothe then

[serene tangle]

I'm free all day, so I'm good for whatever time

[vagrant grotto]

Great, then @sudden cosmos we’ll start an hour later than I listed, on Sunday

[umbral sluice]

so to be certain, it's <t:1777575600:t> ?

[vagrant grotto]

Correct

Uhhh let’s say LL2

[ashen crown]

Out of curiosity Valk, do you happen to have any Nelson houserules? It seems to come with the same micro movement issues you have with Caliban, Zheng, and JK 1, so I’m curious what your take on it is

[vagrant grotto]

No, Nelson is fine mostly in my books

[ashen crown]

Curious, how come?

[vagrant grotto]

Its movement is usually small and tied to an existing action for action compression

[ashen crown]

Mm, makes sense

JK 1 is compounding movement and Zheng is its own thing, and Caliban is much bigger steps of movement

[vagrant grotto]

Like if anything I’d reduce it to 1/round if needed

[silent wedge]

It's also moving a max of like 10 times

[ashen crown]

I mean that's still a lot

[vagrant grotto]

Either 1/round or tied to skirmish directly

[ashen crown]

You could say the same thing about Long Rim Zheng

[silent wedge]

That is but that's also not most turns

That wasn't what I meant to reply to

[vagrant grotto]

I think with Nelson my bigger concern is ram chaining, but that’s not Nelson’s fault as much as it’s everything else that grants free action rams

I don’t know, if someone plays a Nelson and pisses me off by taking too long on their turns I’ll consider it

[ashen crown]

Yeah the only reason that'd happen is if they had a bunch of attacks and your overcharge rules already nipped that in the bud

[vagrant grotto]

I mean it’s still possible to be a PITA, Nelson has a Main/Aux and a Flex after all. Barrage once and Step 4 times

To say nothing of weaving in two free rams from Titanomachy and Duelist 3

[ashen crown]

Yeah but Overcharge provided a really easy way to multiply that, and Rams require being adjacent anyway, which is difficult if every attack moves you

[vagrant grotto]

Not if you’re trying to stay close in the first place

I don’t know, you raise a good point. It’s very easy to fall into a Ramchain optimization trap when building Nelson

[ashen crown]

The option that would be best compromise imo would be "1/firing of mount" but there's not really a clean way to put that into Lancer, so the next best thing is "2/turn"

[vagrant grotto]

I mean I’d make it 1/turn and 2 spaces if anything

[ashen crown]

That also works

[vagrant grotto]

Lockbreaker mirroring

[ashen crown]

It already has a boost trait and 5 speed so not like it's losing too too much

The big appeal of Nelson Skirmisher is less the movement and more the Micromanaging. Before Caliban existed this is how you'd follow up knockback melee attacks to sort of Knockback Juggle I presume?

And that's the sort of thing you wanna crack down in your house rules I think

[silent wedge]

It's also a way to move while grappling

which is very nice

[vagrant grotto]

If that’s desirable, maybe Ram should naturally work like that like in pathfinder 2e

Mm. Grapples are something I gripe about too

[ashen crown]

Skirmisher requires you Skirmish and has to take place outside the action, Nelson Skirmisher letting you interrupt the action to move is already strong enough that you can probably make it 1/turn

[vagrant grotto]

Yeah precisely

Anyway

There’s your answer

[ashen crown]

And I assume core power is unchanged

[umbral sluice]

make the move to follow your target an integrated part of the action à la Shove?

[muted blaze]

Well the Nelson has like a perpetual momentum engine in it or something so like, skirmisher should be when the Nelson moves it keeps moving that direction

Fixed the problem, simple as

[vagrant grotto]

I just realized something neat: with my combined Allied Arcing and Soft Seeking changes, it’s possible to run a Fog of War combat without further nerfing players

[umbral sluice]

I have a sneaking suspicion about an upcoming playtest...

[vagrant grotto]

I don’t have the time to set up LOS and walls lol

[sudden cosmos]

Has a thread been made for the Sunday test for coordination and such?

[vagrant grotto]

it's a WIP

[viscid ingot]

What is this Allied Arcing and Soft Seeking changes leading into Fog of War?

What is your vision oh great one?

[vagrant grotto]

so an issue folks have with Fog of War is Arcing and Seeking exist and by denying "assumed positions" to players, those two tags lead to players trying to ask the GM "Hey is this here?" or getting denied and getting "nerfed"

[viscid ingot]

Ok, I'm following so far.

[vagrant grotto]

So because my updated tags outright require you to have Line of Sight in some way, the “GM may I” aspect is removed, and the “nerfed” aspect is redundant (since they’re already nerfed)

There may be other gripes about fog of war, but yeah

I address “Sensors 3” with Sensible Sensors bumping to 5 minimum

As for “the GM knows where we are though!!” I will always point out that GM can and should roleplay the knowledge enemies have

And like, sensors alleviates this issue on both sides anyway

[ashen crown]

If you have the right group and VTT setup technically the GM doesn’t have to know that either lol

[vagrant grotto]

exactly (though it's hard when the VTT actively refuses to let GMs not know things)

Lotta VTTs are incredibly GM centric and have very little player trust

It's telling that Foundry has two settings for players: "Player" and "Trusted Player", and yet still doesn't allow Trusted Players to do certain things

[viscid ingot]

That may because that the GM managed side things of Foundry can be a bit fragile when touched. So it may be they're expecting the GM to clean up and fix things first before running the game.

Which is oof for the GM, but hopefully not as oof in the long run.

[ashen crown]

Ya know I was thinking about Valk’s recategorization of roles (iirc it’s “Objective Taker, Damage Dealer, Ally Defender, Objective Defender, Support, and Controller”- this could be an outdated categorization in addition to an inaccurate one because I feel like I’m missing a Striker/Artillery subcategory), and I feel like you could divide Support and Controller into subcategories too.

Support into “Damage Multiplier vs Defense Multiplier” (Knight’s brand of support falls into the former whereas Ghost’s brand of support falls into the latter), and Controller into “Action Manipulation vs Mobility Manipulation” (Mesmerist’s control falls into the former whereas Anchor’s control falls into the latter despite how Lodestone redirects attacks).

I’ve been thinking a lot about PPG defenders lately tbh. I also can’t help but feel like this has been discussed before but I’m not certain enough to stop myself from bringing this topic up.

And I’ve very much been thinking a lot about “NPC substitution”, which is very difficult to do in Lancer considering how specialized NPCs tend to be.

And Mirage falls into a weird category of “Movement Multiplier” that Zealot also falls into which isn’t a role that exists in core lancer among the NPC roster outside a small few optionals and the Mirage

[viscid ingot]

Knight could count as a movement multiplier with throw but one that is a recharge and two that is a one-way trip in more ways than one.

[ashen crown]

If you start to factor in optionals things get muddy fast tbh

I feel like it’s easier to consider Movement Multiplier as just not a thing. Like Mirage is primarily a Defensive Multiplier thanks to the way it moves allies- doing so from a range, supplementing its evasion boosting abilities, and with a reaction like Blip. It’s still got an offensive multiplier element because movement can do that but it’s mainly focusing on getting Allies out of danger

[viscid ingot]

True but there us also an offensive factor with say moving a Pyro and a Berserker duo right into the player's faces.

[ashen crown]

Meanwhile, Zealot is all in on being an Offensive Multiplier with its mobility, mandating being close to Allies to trigger it, moving with them, and giving buffs that help most when in the middle of the fray

[vagrant grotto]

I wouldn’t break down controller or support any further tbh

One is a force divider and the other a force multiplier

The reason I broke down vanguard and rearguard was because they often have goals that are counterproductive to sheer damage or tanking

[ashen crown]

Fair, I was just thinking about the ways they do that and wondering if there were any common trends.

[ashen crown]

Vanguard and Rearguard- those were the ones I was forgetting about

[ashen crown]

And there is potentially a utility in this. A Ronin and a Berserker are going to be 2 fairly different vanguards but ultimately they’ll both be Vanguards. A Support and a Scout are going to be doing very different things from one another however- the support will give more staying power but that’s not gonna help a frail roster, and the Scout will give big offensive boosts but that won’t help a roster already glut with high damage too much… tho both never hurt in either scenario so I see the point

[vagrant grotto]

I now have a solid three dozen sitreps in Prototype Pattern Groups 🥳

updated my blogpost ahead of time:

Analyze

There is no hidden objective for which the PCs must Search. Instead, secretly mark one or more NPCs as carrying hidden information. PCs must acquire this hidden information by using the Scan quick tech action (Lancer, p. 70) on the chosen NPC(s) and selecting the “hidden information” option. Once the PCs Scan all NPCs carrying hidden information, the sitrep proceeds as normal.

Faraday Countermeasures modification:

Faraday Countermeasures
System, Shield, Recharge 5+, Reaction
Trigger: The Prototype or an ally in Range 3 would be affected by a tech action and is not EXPOSED.
Effect: Instead of receiving the tech action effect, the triggering character may take 2 Heat and become IMPAIRED until the end of their next turn.

unsure of this

bumped the recharge to 6 and sending it

[viscid ingot]

Recharge 6 feels fair, especially since not many things can deal Exposed on demand.

[ashen crown]

I don’t see what Exposed has to do with it tbh

It sounds like a sort of “future proof” kinda thing to prevent characters from benefitting from it after exceeding their heat cap with One Stress For All

[vagrant grotto]

This was the intent yes

[viscid ingot]

Actually wait the intent of my sentence was wrong. Fuck.

Excuse my tomfoolery, for I have just recently woken up.

[vagrant grotto]

This is the result of me fucking around with Affinity Publisher 2 for the past couple hours, seeing what the lift would be to redo Prototype Pattern Groups in Affinity Publisher 2

In short: It'll be a hefty lift, but not impossible. Lotta tedium though

but I've got the nifty feature headers, and the text is much more tightly constrained, so there's actually a decent amount of space reclaimed

though I might make slight adjustments to the body text so it's not quite so compressed

Overall, though, I'm satisfied with these preliminary results

[ashen crown]

Question Valk- is the fact no NPCs are recommended for Quells an oudated thing or is it on purpose?

[ashen crown]

The difference isn't too obvious to me but I presume the backend is more precise now

[vagrant grotto]

Open up current PPG to the Anchor and compare/contrast to this sample and you’ll see some significant shifts

But yes ultimately it’s not supposed to be a big change

[ashen crown]

I forgot I haven't updated my PDF again -_-

[vagrant grotto]

What are you talking about?

[ashen crown]

I'm updating my PDF rn so I could be wrong, but doing a search of the NPC's and their recommended useage none are outright recommended for Quells. I understand Quells are designed to be a Deathmatch Update so specific NPCs may not be specifically better or worse than each other in Quells but it felt worth asking I suppose

[vagrant grotto]

1. It's likely an outdated thing
2. Also, Quell is super basic, literally anything could do alright on Quell

like sure okay, if you want to optimize it pick stuff that hits good

or pick stuff that prevents the opponent from hitting good

but this basically boils down to "make a team comp based on roles"

[ashen crown]

Was just making sure, yeah, appreciate the answer

[ashen crown]

It just hit me- Hydra is somehow inadvertently really weak to Occultist and Mesmerist’s “take heat if you take a hostile action” effect because their base kit utilizes a reaction that is hostile and has no round limit and does not depend on the Hydra’s positioning meaning it’s likely gonna trigger often

That’s rad.

[vagrant grotto]

Don’t forget stuff like Hive’s grind maniple

[ashen crown]

That too ofc but that’s just any action, which has a much broader portfolio

Not a lot of reactions are hostile & not attacks & have no round limit

And these are base kits not optional stuff

To clarify I find this really interesting and fun, especially for Mesmerist because it’s a Defender/Controller, and not a lot of “aggro draw” effects in Lancer could affect a Hydra like that

Gonna love using it against my Hydra player >:)

[dapper goblet]

< wearing his #1 mesmerist fan shirt

i love mesmerist raaah

[round patrol]

hai

are we having any sessions soon

[vagrant grotto]

I’m running one today! Seats are full though

[round patrol]

oh :(

[vagrant grotto]

They happen every week or so depending on my availability

[round patrol]

well i have finals

oh!

great

do they use your hb rebalance

[next jewel]

Hello yall! Reading through house rules document rn

What is the mechanic difference between pursue prey+slam and follow through?

[vagrant grotto]

Usually yes

[vagrant grotto]

My change makes the Caliban follow through 1/round instead of infinite per round

Lot of my HB changes are targeted at reducing number of decision points each turn (player or GM)

[next jewel]

Oh yeah right forgot abt that

So you don't double shotgun quite as often

The zheng changes feel... 4 speed isn't a lot if it wants to do the grappling plan that TSS2 wants

Tbf D/D288 doesn't synergize with the base zheng itself so idk

[vagrant grotto]

Having seen !V! Zheng in action I think 4 speed works fine, and 2 AGI investment does wonders too

But if you run a playtest lemme know how it feels

[next jewel]

Is it a necessary sacrifice that heavy charged blade becomes obsolete with the heavy melee weapon buff?

[vagrant grotto]

Is it really obsolete given that it has AP?

Like that’s a stretch imo

In any case I haven’t seen much heavy melee or heavy charged blades period

So maybe it could use a damage bump

Dunno! Feel free to tweak and lemme know how it goes

The key thing to understand about my homebrew tweaks is that if something seems off, I probably either missed something, or I’m aware of the issue and haven’t gotten to it yet

Like, I’m not purposefully trying to destroy everything heavy charged blade stands for here

The tweaks are the start of a conversation between GM and players, not an ultimatum

So please don’t ascribe malicious intent to my tweaks unless like, I’ve made that explicit

[next jewel]

Yeah just a tip. Heavy melee weapon is an average of 1,5 more damage which is the upper emd of the estimate of average AP benefit

[vagrant grotto]

Noted then

[next jewel]

Yo base speed 5 balor🤯

[vagrant grotto]

Gotta earn that Striker tag

[next jewel]

I mean I'm not saying it's mecessarily inherently op (haven't had time to think abt it) just so different from the fantasy it has painted

[vagrant grotto]

Strikers in football gotta get aggressive

My fantasy of Balor is this

[next jewel]

https://youtu.be/C0t4bY4kkmQ?is=bCi5YNvnNX_Idm44

And well, what fantasy this beautiful video painted

[vagrant grotto]

https://tenor.com/view/lord-of-the-rings-gandalf-balrog-bring-it-on-ready-gif-23030080

And big is not slow

If it was slow, the fellowship would’ve walked across the bridge instead of run

The vibe mistake I think a lot of CRB mechs make is that bigger is slower, when really bigger just looks slower because it’s moving the same distance, but that distance is smaller relative to their size

[next jewel]

True, Barbarossa gotta look really funny when walking

[vagrant grotto]

So from a distance, a 4 speed Gorgon looks like it moved half the distance as a 4 speed Everest

Barb is the biggest offender yeah

I buff it to 3 speed minimum

Undocumented but yeah

[next jewel]

Dew it

[vagrant grotto]

I mean I do, I have a rule for it in PPG

[next jewel]

Also watch this if u didn't it's like a minute and so peak

[vagrant grotto]

I’ve seen it no worries

[round patrol]

@vagrant grotto what are the "striker" CBs now that opcal and autostab are dead? (rejoice!)

[round patrol]

They forgot the part where the witch glances at them and then the Balor violently combusts

[round patrol]

honestly I might run caliban

now

that its not so plarizing

[next jewel]

-# shhhh, that part doesn't exist!

i mean GLORY TO RA

[round patrol]

But now with Valk's rebalance

I can finally

Be the Balor

RA wanted me to be

[next jewel]

True

[round patrol]

a genuine striker defender

now give it 14 hp 6 eva trust

with the power of ssc

i have become

um

i can finally use my massive hp to defend allies via camus razor and sympathetic shield

but tbh I might just become a striker hacker with gobbo invades

and support my team through that

[next jewel]

Asura feels kinda weak now when it's so ridiculously nerfed but then you realise it really isn't it was just insane before

[round patrol]

1/scene quick action is still cracked my guy

I do wish it just want usable to skirmish but oculd do anything else rather than being a few actions

Also no heat cost

It's just not ultra broken

[next jewel]

Doesn't say that nowhere?

[round patrol]

Oh rly

oh dear

ok

[vagrant grotto]

The striker CBs are the SSC ones that improve mobility, Titanomachy that facilitates Ram, Heatfall which benefits overcharging, and Thinking Tomorrow’s Thought

That and the Extra Mount stuff from GMS

[vagrant grotto]

I believe I kept the heat cost yeah

But yes extra actions are always huge and should never be underestimated

[ashen crown]

Monarch is an exception and should not be counted

[next jewel]

White witch especially

[ashen crown]

Valk said CRB White Witch is expansion content

[next jewel]

Ohh CRB means core rulebook that makes sense

[serene tangle]

It's a lot more powerful when you consider overcharging is just a reroll, not another action imo

And that most sources of extra quicks have been removed

[next jewel]

I do like your sunzi nerfs but maybe it swung around just a little especially by massacreing the core passive and active. I think as a bit of a compromise blink anchor could have 5 charges but cannot get more from limited system bonus. Sunzi doesn't really heatgame too much so having to invest a bunch of engi just to get any use of the core power seems annoying

Everything else is good, but 3 ally teleports in the entire mission or 3 enemy teleports that can all fail is a little ouch

[vagrant grotto]

We’re gonna find out today! It’s gonna be a transport-like playtest with a !V! Sunzi

And remember that Blink Anchor can perform a cross map teleportation

[ashen crown]

Question about Zeal: if an ally targets another ally, ex a Zealed Berserker using aggression against another Zealed ally, does the attack benefit from Zeal?

[vagrant grotto]

https://tenor.com/view/i-guess-memes-meme-gif-17950413

[ashen crown]

Oh that’s delightful

[vagrant grotto]

at least it's just AP I guess lol

[next jewel]

I like the eject power cores alternative but do think generally effects that can only be used on each character once or pnce per scene or whatever should get to either retry if they fail or get some compensation, same as your argument with full techs

[vagrant grotto]

good news: you don't pick the Invade option until you hit

[next jewel]

Like if you miss with Network binding against a character, you already lost a quick action that feels like pubishment enough

[next jewel]

Oh shi damn didn't know that

Oki ur good:)

[ashen crown]

The Knockback can be there if the ally wants it to be

[vagrant grotto]

@round patrol this is last minute, but I had a player drop for my playtest today at <t:1777834800:F>

Are you interested in playing an LL2 playtest for 4-5 hours? if not no worries, I'll run with 3

asking since you showed interest earlier

[next jewel]

The scorpion seems very mid rn compared to like stasis bolt. You spend a quick action, the opponent has to miss (npc tech attackers are generally very accurate) and then they have to fail a save

[vagrant grotto]

Scorpion needs work yes

I'll be totally honest there's a pile of stuff I have feedback on that hasn't been implemented yet

[next jewel]

Yeah dw I'll make a list of stuff that I'll change myself from your thing for my next mini campaign I'm planning on holding

Like I don't have to follow your ideas to the word ofc

I almost agree with everything though

[round patrol]

oh in gms

[round patrol]

no sorry :(

[vagrant grotto]

all good

[opaque crescent]

i can fill if there's no one else stepping up to the plate

[vagrant grotto]

sure, you're in

[next jewel]

Dangit dinner is already done I though this would take much longer, I could've nabbed the slot first💔

Would be peak

[next jewel]

Realised I missed the reactor stabilizer. It feels very mid for 3sp. Could possibly be 1sp but since it's LL1 and widely applicable for heat mechs it feels safe to make it 2sp

The one kinda crazy abuser of reactor stabilizer is displacer

[opaque crescent]

or just to defend against enemy heatgunners

speccing into it by picking up things like Stasis Shielding core bonus also help amp it

it's 3sp to ignore a burst of damage when you overheat, which is pretty strong

[vagrant grotto]

yup, someone ran Reactor Stabilizer + Adaptive Reactor + Displacer Swallowtail and it was suprisingly Fine™

or rather stasis shielding

it's one of those things hard to gauge on paper

[next jewel]

I mean most enemy heatgunners do so through several instances of heat. Sure you can block up to 3 heat from a witch but that's if you're one step from overheating and really not significant

[vagrant grotto]

if you run a playtest I'm happy to hear how it plays

like, I'm glad you're largely liking what you're reading, but I'll say that generally playtest feedback is more helpful and desirable to me than cold reads

[next jewel]

As someone who's been able to have 3 proper combats in my campaign that started last september me being asked to rather do playtest feedback is a crazy concept to me😭 scheduling hell is real💔

(Also partially my fault since my gm style involves quite a bit of rp and exploration, like I feel like with a focused party half of our time spent during missions would still be that but with my hella slow and easily distracted party it's more like 2/3rds)

[ashen crown]

Me: “Oh I can’t wait to run Mesmerists soon!”
Module: “Hey isn’t this the mission where the cold weather makes everyone resistant to Heat?”
Me: “… fuck (I’ll just focus on keeping the Shredder characters alive)”

[silent wedge]

It never occurred to me that Shredded would stop environmental effects like extreme cold.

[ashen crown]

Resistance is Resistance no matter where it comes from

[silent wedge]

Oh yeah, I just hadn't considered it.

I recently ran an Extreme Cold fight but it had no Shredded

[ashen crown]

There’s also a lot less Shred in PPG than I expected and remember there being. I know a good bit of it got swapped out and it’s not a bad thing but it’s something that piqued my interest

Another thing that occurs to me: Grease Monkey 2 users get to grin stupidly at Bottom of the Well the same way Superior by Design users grin stupidly at Doomscroll

[vagrant grotto]

Major findings today:

• Prone + Objectives That Slow You is fucking rough
• Torrent needs some work, especially putting the saves vs prone back into the kit (instead of being deterministic on collision) but also Tsunami and Storm Surge getting work
• Howler is a menace while Elite, and likely should lose its armor and/or some Howl OS, and perhaps also actually reduce its threat to 1???? Fucking wild
• ire has some weird Overheated interactions but it’s not out of line; 5 speed does it good

[silent wedge]

It got replaced with Stunned until start of turn, which jumpscared me on multiple occasions.

[vagrant grotto]

Knight was a big source of it, but no more

[silent wedge]

I remember seeing Power Chord for the first time and going "what the hell is Valk cooking?"

[vagrant grotto]

lol yeah

It used to Shred! Because it was a Guitar!

But now it doesn’t and I think it’s better for it (the shred never got tested)

[silent wedge]

I need to throw more "Jammed/Stunned until start of turn" effects into my NPC abilities.

[vagrant grotto]

Honestly I think I should do the same with Jammed in some cases

Maybe bring it back to Mesmerist lol

But the recharge tool is good

[ashen crown]

Jammed until start of next turn is basically just taking away reactions but it can be interacted with

[vagrant grotto]

The Sunzi today got Transposed a few times so the stun on Ire got mileage

[ashen crown]

How were the Sunzi changes by the way?… you do have Sunzi changes right? Or am I making stuff up?

[vagrant grotto]

I do wonder if I should put a microstun on Kensei’s Posture Break instead of Dazed…

[ashen crown]

Man all the cool broken stuff is getting replaced before I even get to use it v_v

But since base Minuano already applies a defensive debuff in Shred, I feel like having Posture break add another defensive debuff is less than pleasant

And I think Daze is cool

Not enough Daze

[ashen crown]

Since Mesmerist’s pressure application depends very heavily on its ability to apply heat with effects like Memetic Magnetism, would a character resisting Heat significantly reduce it’s effectiveness?

Asking because the mission I’m gonna run is gonna be in Cold Weather meaning all characters have heat resistance, and while there are ways to shut that down it’s going to be the less common scenario

The mission is at the start of tier 2, so Memetic Magnetism will only be dealing tier 1 heat instead of tier 2 heat and it’s Rapier + Standard invade will deal less heat, so I suppose it’s effectively downtiered in one sense, but I suppose it just needs to be selective in its targeting?

[ashen crown]

Was reading through the suggested pairings, and while I find most all of them quite fantastic, I will say Sword & Sorcery (Knight + Witch) and No Visual (Mesmerist + Operator) are a bit below the standard set by the other pairings.

Typically, the effects of the pairing are either stated to directly tie into or complement one another in a unique way. With these two however, the only combo is “the defender locks down targets for a long range unit,” something that is not unique to either unit.

It just seemed worth mentioning specifically because the other pairings are so much more detailed and thoughtful- even if the NPC pairings don’t change I feel the benefits of the pairing could be highlighted better, perhaps with the assistance of an optional or two.

(Ex- highlighting how the Knight + Witch’s choice of target would be a character weak in systems that will be easy to bully, or recommending the use of Chain on the Witch to really lock down a target when combined with the duel. Or for No Visual recommending the use of Telefrag so the Mesmerist can draw attention away from the Operator while it puts itself in a vulnerable position in the middle of the fray)

For Witch + Knight specifically and only with base traits it feels like a somewhat poor combo due to how Witch is one of the few NPCs that gains almost no utility from stun on an offensive front

(Nothing but hacks, no saves that are hull or agility, usually size 1/2 so struggles to ram or grapple, and 20 sensors so it’s at too long a range to even do that)

[next jewel]

Lots of them ye, wondering too

(Granted maybe a oneshot isn't the best testing space to see if a limited 3 feature needs more limited uses)

[vagrant grotto]

This is a bit of a victim of the Greatsword changes from Lockon + shred to Stun Start of Turn

I need to reread Mesmerist + Operator and reassess

In any case they can’t all be winners

[vagrant grotto]

Blink anchor never got dropped, the Efficient core got a prone Caliban out of danger, Sunzi go jostled around by a Torrent and proned as a result of collisions, and other parts of the kit paled in comparison to Prospector due to how the fight was going

Safe Harbor never got used because I never hit with Metafold Shove

It was a clusterfuck of a combat scene to try to get everyone from one side to the other with the objective

I never deployed my reinforcements

Gilgamesh sincerely blew all its limited weapon charges just to put a dent in some of the opponents

[next jewel]

With your homerules, you don't have to use the new results when overcharging right?

[vagrant grotto]

You do

No overcharging for crit fishing

Unless you wanna risk a miss on something that would otherwise hit

[next jewel]

I mean with the pretty significant overcharge nerf overcharge critfishing feels like a fair option... I would love to playtest with my harrison stan bestie but she is not happy with the action economy loss and stress changes (she has a pretty skewed view on what amount of coddling harrison mechs need to be good)

[vagrant grotto]

Playtest it first for sure

Rerolls have been great and enjoyed for my tables

I get why an action economy fiend may hate it, but at the end of the day I’m not making house rules for them

If you want to turn them onto this, tell them how it makes Limited, Self Heat, Loading, and Superheavy weapons much more reliable and less costly and maybe they’ll bite

It’s also good for contested checks, which I use liberally in my modular objectives

[vagrant grotto]

Hell, I have a blog explaining my thought process: https://trainlightning.com/overcharge-overhaul/

[ashen crown]

It’s not like the pairings are objectively losers tbh, I just feel like the strengths of the pairings haven’t been sufficiently highlighted when compared to other PPG pairings

[vagrant grotto]

Aight, noted

[next jewel]

Do you have a similar one for the stress change? While my friend was initially taken aback by the overcharge she took more lasting problem with that one

The fact that your danger zone traits and stuff just will never work for the rest of the combat and your siege cannon now kills you

[vagrant grotto]

https://trainlightning.com/house-rules-structure-overheating/

[vagrant grotto]

This sounds like an overreaction

I’m gonna ask that you refrain from further speculation and let me know if you use it at your tables and how it goes

I have been using these rules for a while now and they have worked well and been generally well-received by my players

Like, “danger zone traits won’t work for rest of combat” is outright false, it’s a matter of simply stabilizing to clear heat, exposed, and overheated

Tokugawa’s exposed from overclock doesn’t apply overheated either, it’s just exposed

I’ll say that I’m not surprised that a player who actively leverages these subsystems would balk at changes to them, but I’ve found these changes to be healthy for my games

In any case, if you or your player have actionable playtest feedback on these rules, I’ll hear it out. Otherwise I’m not accepting cold, drive-by-reading feedback on my Overcharge, Structure, and Overheating rules at this time

Use it if you like it and ditch it if you don’t

[next jewel]

Her words not mine, I just told her about the changes

Just clarification on what part she took problem with. So if you didn't have a blog post and didn't mind, you could answer those points here directly so I could convince her (you obviously justify your own changes better than I do)

[next jewel]

Overall the things I say here aren't actually to critizise your work but rather just root around to get a better understanding of your changes since you have the playtest knowledge to back your opinion up. As said, I don't really have the ability to hold frequent combats to playtest. Like to me it seems like it should be fair to critfish with overcharge and since you didn't make that change, I'm obviously missing something

And then sometimes one of the things I say do be a fair point (like heavy charged blade being left behind when HMW is buffed, this obviously isn't a big problem but still worth considering) but I don't expect all my opinions to be the correct ones

[next jewel]

But you can't be in the danger zone if all heat you take is transformed to energy? Wait am I missing something...

[ashen crown]

How is that the case?

Oh wait that’s answered oops

[ashen crown]

You stabilize to clear all heat + exposed + overheated.

Like a normal person (exaggeration) (bit)

[next jewel]

Didn't all heat turn into energy after you take stress?

Like independently from conditions

[ashen crown]

No?

What do you think Stabilize does?

[umbral sluice]

while Overheated, all Heat becomes energy

[ashen crown]

The rules state that all heat you take past your heat cap turns into Energy

[umbral sluice]

if you arent Overheated, heat just works as normal

[ashen crown]

I thought it was just tied to heat cap and is independent of Overheated (for the purposes of traits like the one Brigand has)

[umbral sluice]

oh right I may be misremembering

good point

[ashen crown]

If you clear all your heat, you don’t have that problem anymore

[next jewel]

Oh... it wasn't attached to the overheated condition part of the document but rather the stress one itself

Like this just read to me as if you're stressed this is just it until you repair said stress

[sudden cosmos]

Thinking about Disarming Parry Kensei Grunts for an upcoming combat

[next jewel]

Wait so once you take the stress and stabilize what happens?

[ashen crown]

It’s “1 stress for all” for a reason. You don’t clear all heat when you overheat and you don’t lose stress or make a stress check

[next jewel]

Ohhhh

I thought it just removed the stress check

And gave you a stress stat of 1 that can be reduced to 0

[ashen crown]

No it removes stress

And makes all characters function like a 1 stress NPC

[next jewel]

Ok this is so much more forgiving lmao

[ashen crown]

In some respects yes

But if you get lucky with stress rolls typically it isn’t, and if you’re using this system you can’t just keep giving yourself heat after overheating

Also Heat almost never turns into damage against you- these rules make that not a thing anymore

[next jewel]

My understanding was literally just how it works except the heat to energy damage is permament until you repair the stress during rest

[sudden cosmos]

One Stress, if you don't have the action economy to stabilize, can brutalize a party by not giving them the time to get rid of the exposed

But otherwise is more forgiving, yeah

[ashen crown]

This is why I love the Kutuzov build I made where stabilize was the gameplan - always have time to stabilize if you were gonna do it anyway

[vagrant grotto]

Right, I’m still not interested in cold read feedback, so I’m asking that you please refrain from relaying such from her to me

[next jewel]

So like I'm super happy that I brought this up because if I'd just blindly trusted my your stuff because its playtested, I might make insane misconceptions like these or just not understand the value of certain actions you've changed and for example not use them

[ashen crown]

Maybe instead of phrasing it as “I think something is wrong” you should phrase it as “I think we’re missing something” when it comes to specific mechanics if you don’t have playtest feedback, treating these inquiries more like rules questions than change requests

[next jewel]

Yeah that's fair, I'll keep that in mind

[vagrant grotto]

What ASquared said, yeah. I’m happy to clear up confusion as it arises

[ashen crown]

Giving everything a reread- Threshing Advance (Occultist + Robin) also strikes me as a potentially a weakly described pairing, but I feel like the justification that the combo encourages opponents to fall back is sufficient enough as an addition as it’s more about the combined effect of the units rather than them fulfilling independent roles. It reminds me of Abjuration (Mesmerist + Priest) where both NPCs have a similar ability that compounds on itself dangerously when the two work in conjunction. I think Sword & Sorcery could take inspiration from this pairing’s description (as well as Abjuration’s) (I really like Abjuration).

As another bit of Pairing description feedback, Roving Marauders (Hatchet + Sentinel (Bodyguard)) is a fine combo and description, but Bodyguard isn’t in the description of the pairing so idk if the Sentinel needs it as a recommended optional.

[south cypress]

Do a Brigand Engineer's turrets benefit from Dirty Fighting?

[vagrant grotto]

No, they’re their own characters

[south cypress]

Alright cool

[ashen crown]

I think however it works for Engineers + Deadly is how it works for Dirty Fighting, which is apparently “it does not work”

[vagrant grotto]

Roving Marauders might’ve been expecting Rapid Response instead, dunno

I’ll revisit it

[ashen crown]

Regardless, no sentinel optionals are mentioned in the description, so if an Optional isn’t a part of the explicit pairing gameplan I don’t think there needs to be one highlighted

[next jewel]

Again a similar thing as with the heavy melee weapons except now it's a tiny bit more relevant since it's license gear. With the hunter-killer buff, I struggle to see ghoul nexus ever getting picked (I'm guessing it was already struggling with double light nexus just being better thanks to critfish). Worth considering

[vagrant grotto]

Dunno, Ghoul Nexus is great for positioning

And yeah you’ve hit upon the innate problem with Centimane that I’d likely fix by just allowing Lock On to sub as an on-crit trigger

[next jewel]

Positioning?

[vagrant grotto]

Oh wait you said ghoul not ghast

[next jewel]

Yeah ghast is silly but ghoul is normally just tiny bit better hunter killer

[vagrant grotto]

Ghoul needs love period I think

Gut reaction is “make the Smart optional” to emphasize its role as a can opener

Exploiting weaknesses etc etc

“If you use Ghoul, it’ll hit the worst defense and avoid resistances” would be the selling point

[next jewel]

That is an option. Only like 2 npc's have higher edef than evasion tho right?

[vagrant grotto]

I don’t have the stats memorized off the top of my head

I know my personal NPCs have more variation

[next jewel]

I remember some discussion abt that in the homebrew channel

[vagrant grotto]

Higher EDEF is also a good Seeking defense since most of those are Smart (Maria of #1062222891342647366 Pointed that out to me)

Anyway yeah nexuses in general need Centimane to be more consistent

I’d exploit Lock On consumption for that

[next jewel]

Nvm this is very untrue lol

[next jewel]

Ok yeah this is pretty cool

[ashen crown]

Well, damage type resistances. Core only has 2 of those + Regenerator and those odd Monstrosity + Ultra optionals, and PPG just has the Boombox and Prototype’s Lightning Rod optional. And the rebakes remove one of those (Barricade’s Kinetic Resistance).

So in terms of “ignoring resistances,” unless you wanna make Ghoul Nexus borderline Paracausal (a thing I doubt anyone wants), I feel like the problem isn’t with Ghoul Nexus but rather the lack of damage type interaction on a defensive front in NPCs

Now being able to choose between Smart or Not IS a pretty significant bonus however

[vagrant grotto]

Let me be clear: This would be a weapon to reward Knowledge

[next jewel]

Also only one of those npc's has kinetic resistance so the type that the gms nexi are

So you only gain from that against barricades

[ashen crown]

Ultimately I don’t think Variable damage is something Lancer wants to make a big deal, and considering Ghoul Nexus is an LL1 main nexus with a comparable range and slightly more reliable damage than its GMS counterpart, it really doesn’t need a lot even if it really needs a little. The “always target the lower defense” idea is likely exactly enough for it

Maybe it could be AP too since there are no AP nexi- idk

[vagrant grotto]

Annihilation Nexus would like to know your location

[ashen crown]

Oh right

[vagrant grotto]

Anyway 3-5 damage is a nice constrained value for a main

[ashen crown]

Statement retracted about the AP

[vagrant grotto]

Also don’t forget Swarm/Hive, how could you

[ashen crown]

Swarm/Hive’s burn does not count, 2 armor makes it deal almost half damage

[vagrant grotto]

Ignores Armor higher than 2!

Bastion stocks are crumbling

[ashen crown]

Not to mention bonus damage being reduced past that

[vagrant grotto]

Aight fine, have it your way

[next jewel]

I think this is a fine enough compromise? Like it's not gonna add more average hit chance overall than the hunter killer with accuracy and accuracy on it does also get it closer to triggering centimane. But it is good to be cautious, a buff is a buff

[vagrant grotto]

Again any changes I’d make to Nexi are gonna be paired with Centimane buffs

[ashen crown]

Plus as you go up in tiers, even with the houserules doing away with some accuracy sources, eventually accuracy is just going to become more common and accurate weapons are going to be slightly less valuable. Meanwhile Ghoul nexus is only going to go up in value against most enemies since most enemies have only one defense scale (or at least their other defense scales very slowly, like oh no the Anchor’s evasion went from 6 to 8 over 2 tiers how terrible)

It’d also be interesting to maybe have Ghoul nexus be range 12 or 15. Not a lot of long range Nexuses, apart from Ghast Nexus and it’s very gimmicky in its range. Same with Annihilation Nexus

[next jewel]

I ❤️ annihilation nexus. I'd love for it to be able to ignore allies since it is intelligent drones attacking but that'd probably be too powerful and I don't think it needs a buff (I do have a bit of experience with it actually, in lancer tactics)

Fun theoretical still

[ashen crown]

Oh btw I asked this earlier but any advice?

[next jewel]

15 on it as a main with no self heat or other negative is kinda too long? There are sharanja missiles I suppose. I could see 12 range tho

[vagrant grotto]

My advice is to lean on something else than the heat tbh

[ashen crown]

Ah yeah good point- leave it for another weapon lol

[steel apex]

My thought on the ghoul nexus has been to bake in its own miniature walking armory function

I do think, even taking a sort of game meta-knowledge conceit into account, weapon damage types in lancer simply aren't that valuable a lever to pull

[next jewel]

(Not saying 15 can't work, just that for a main that kinda warrants being a bit more central rather than slapped on and for the striker that is hydra it doesn't really make sense as a buff)

[steel apex]

I think you could keep "choose your damage type" as a fun little extra, but overall I think what the weapon actually needs is, like, something that actually does a thing

"Choose explosive damage, and it also gains knockback"

[vagrant grotto]

Absolutely, agreed. Hence why I think toggleable smart could be good

I could see mini WA but I also dislike too many mini decisions

[steel apex]

make it a bit of a one-stop multitool

[vagrant grotto]

But I could see that

Could be neat

[ashen crown]

Mind elaborating? Are you recommending lean into a different control part of their kit with optionals or just don’t use Mesmerists?

[vagrant grotto]

I think my pushback would be

• WA already applies to Ghoul
• Centimane also stacks effects

[vagrant grotto]

Give em a recharge optional that fucks around with opponent so Codespike gets value

[next jewel]

Oh yeah centimane with even more effects feels a bit messy

[muted blaze]

Nexus's need love period

In my talent rework the unfortunate truth I came across of "how do I make centimane good" and the answer is "make nexuses good"

[next jewel]

Is centimane not atleast decent? I suppose not early game but once you get a little bit of grit, a lock on hit means you're pretty likely to get shred + completely lock down ranged npc's with blind or severely nerf melee with fragsig.

My only nexus experience is LL6 lancer tactics annihilation hydra with an open door ally so obviously not the most representative so do correct me

[ashen crown]

Another thing I realized about my Mesmerist deployments:

my party is like. Really dangerous to Mesmerists.

The only target weak to Mesmerist attacks is our Zheng, and a Zheng is one of the most dangerous things a Mesmerist could draw the aggro of. Then we have a Pegasus, Hydra, and Swallowtail, all of whom have good E-Defense. So uh. Oops.

I’m still gonna use ‘em tho

[next jewel]

I am curious about these npc's but my credit card doesn't work with a lot of online purchases for some reason so I can't get it💔

[muted blaze]

The NPCs are rad

[muted blaze]

Like, compared to other weapon talents like vanguard (busted), crack shot (peak weapon talent) and Stormbringer (pretty good) centimane kinda exists, and it relies on crit fishing, saves and lock ons

Jumping through a bunch of hoops to get ok to decent results

[silent wedge]

It's also secretly more of an aux talent because of said crit fishing. And a lot of nexi are mains or higher

[vagrant grotto]

I’ll double check my payment processor settings

[ashen crown]

Crack Shot circumvents falling into that trap imo due to having a built in way to get accuracy (and having that be a prereq to its other ranks) + having it’s 2nd rank be premeditated rather than reactionary. So it really goes all in on a “one shot one opportunity” kinda playstyle

[next jewel]

It's not just an itch thing I can't buy stuff on google play either

[vagrant grotto]

Hm I’ve got PayPal and Stripe configured but I don’t see other options

Dang, well, if you bum it off a friend I won’t tell

[next jewel]

I don't have paypal, we use swish here in sweden🫠

[vagrant grotto]

Yeah I’d likely do what Maria does, if not more: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ModxKO46FcsswE3ZNie_jTSewhlfD5DGZZhaRsfITp8/edit?tab=t.0#heading=h.vq8i8gzatxqf

[silent wedge]

If valk's cool with it i can send you the lcp

[vagrant grotto]

I saw nothing

Must be the wind

[next jewel]

Wait cyclone pulse rifle is too strong? Ur obviously not maria but if someone here agrees with her on that one can they explain to me why you should remove the accurate from the superheavy loading weapon?

[ashen crown]

It’s a rifle so it has easy accuracy access, it already has Reliable 5, it’s already one the hardest hitting single target target weapons in the game while being a GMS weapon and not having Ordnance, it crowds out AMR

[vagrant grotto]

I don’t know, I’m not really here to discuss Maria’s stuff in general either tbf

But crack shot sounds like the culprit (though Maria does have a crack shot change too)

But usually CPR is pretty dang good

[next jewel]

Yeah I don't think it's underpowered by any means just not too powerful either (I have had a player use this one and it felt fair)

[steel apex]

Because it doesn't need it. It's already juiced to hell for a starter superheavy, it has range 15 and no ordnance and reliable 5 and hits like a truck. By cramming every positive quality imaginable onto it, it exacerbates issues with things like the AMR, it's closest neighbor and competitor, being devalued, and also accuracy and reliable are at odds in terms of what they do

As mentioned, if you want accuracy on the cyclone, crack shot 1 is right there for anyone to take

I don't think it's OP either, BUT if you want a diverse ecosystem of choices, sometimes that involves looking at a thing and going "okay but does it NEED this?," and tbh I don't think removing accuracy really hurts it as much as removing reliable would, for example, even if the reliable might be the statistically more negligible trait

The reliable makes it, well, reliable, it's a great trait for a LL0 superheavy with loading to make missing feel less bad, accuracy is just gilding the lily

[next jewel]

Looking at the occultist rn and I see one main possible issue. Lead astray being recharge 5+ means 2 self heat with your rules, right? The effect looks decent for a recharge but 2 self heat with 6 heat cap and your main thing of spawning drones also taking 2 self heat feels like a very very easily disturbed mech (esp when it's even more forced to stabilize with your stress rules). Lmk how this has gone in testing

[vagrant grotto]

It’s 1 self heat, GitHub is out of date

Disturbing the Occultist is well and good

[next jewel]

ah I see, yeah that seems more bearable😅

the recharge trait or both it and the drones?

[vagrant grotto]

Recharge

If you run a playtest lemme know how it goes

[next jewel]

Ire has its tier 2 and 3 HP swapped atleast in the version I have, has this since been fixed in the up to date version?

[umbral sluice]

yeah thats a known issue in the LCP, its meant to be 18 at Tier 2

[next jewel]

ahh yeah that makes more sense with scaling dunno how I didn't think of that as an option

[vagrant grotto]

yeah it'll get fixed next release

[next jewel]

Excruciating transposition, rip agility builds💔

Already not great from what I've picked up on this server, now when facing an Ire that evasion swiftly dissapears🥀 (ofc not forever but damn ur vulnerable without the hull investment) (not necessarily a critique just an observation)

[vagrant grotto]

Ire is a single NPC

some NPCs will hose some PCs

https://tenor.com/view/star-trek-weakness-life-not-a-weakness-gif-5528164

[next jewel]

yeah ik, it be like that. It's just funny cuz usually stuff like save targeting damage, reliable and smart aren't particularly high so even if they partially counter high eva builds they aren't nearly as immediately threatening as "everyone can ignore all your survivability investment and practically autohit you"

again, not a critique but just an observation. It is a pretty high recharge so it atleast won't be spammed

[vagrant grotto]

it's fresh out of the homebrew mines so if you playtest it let me know how it goes

[next jewel]

Damn, power cord aswell (though that is an optional)

[next jewel]

Is gravity cannon on the anchor a choice between cone or line or is it something weirder?

[vagrant grotto]

it's a choice

same with Torrent and Prism weapons

[next jewel]

makes sense

ok just finished reading all npc's, I love them

so many such cool themes

boombox😎

only one I'm not particularly convinced on is vulture but I think that's just a personal preference. Higher tier Ire looks really scary and hard to remove but I am actually planning on testing that one relatively soon so we'll see

Wait no I'm not playing high tier it won't be very representative of what I'm scared of💔 (everything resistance 5-7 overshield per turn)

[silent wedge]

Vultures are my favorite third-party NPC. They're very useful

[next jewel]

wait I may be stupid💀 for some reason I thought ruinous reactor resistance was danger zone. What has happened to my reading comprehension last few... something?😭

[silent wedge]

Throw the recharge refresh optional on them and put some Grunts in the fight and you can cook up some nasty team comps.

[placid glacier]

I still remember my "three hound missles on the field at the same time" encounter fondly

my girlfriend less so

[next jewel]

I think I may be subconsiously unreasonably focused on trash to treasure even if it's just an optional. I'm already kinda bad at keeping track of everything going on without marking down what npc dropped what wreck

heck, I still straight up forget to pop down wrecks a lot. They're just not what's on the top of my mind ever

[silent wedge]

My experience might be colored by using FoundryVTT where the wrecks still have a character sheet attached.

[next jewel]

now that I have a Zheng player I have to lock in🙏

[next jewel]

ah fair. I play with a physical eraseable marker battlemap

[placid glacier]

oh god- I remember when I did my first skirmish oneshot because I wanted to test the (at the time) brand new Vulture and one of my players also happened to bring a zheng

ping ponged across pretty much the entire sitrep

I think I like. almost always put mag bomb on my vultures

I do really love using carcass bunker tho

[next jewel]

wait why does it say in the stats that the carcass rampart is size 4 but obv it's size 1 as the text says? Fixed oversight?

[silent wedge]

One of my favorite fight designs ever was a trash to treasure Ultra vulture with that one anomaly Trait that lets it chestburst out of an ally after it dies.

[silent wedge]

Don't have the PDF open on me right now but IIRC it's 4 contiguous height 4 spaces that all make up a single Size 4 object.

[next jewel]

holy there are a lot of anomaly features

[silent wedge]

At least by default you only get one, so that helps a lot.

[ashen crown]

This is more of a “should I” than a “can I” question:

Is having a Mesmerist use Hypnotic Attraction on a character 2 spaces away to immediately Overwatch them and then Skirmish again an unwise move? Either because it’s too action + roll intensive to be worth it or because it’s just bad manners

The logic seems sound to me personally. Yes the Mesmerist loses Overwatch as a lock down tool, but it gains a mirror image if it hits the invade, recharges Hypno or a different feature if it hits with the rapier, and can potentially get a double skirmish out of the deal. Ofc it doesn’t make a lot of use out of Hypno’s movement, but at least if you miss it you still have the freedom to follow up.

It does strike me as just a tad bad manners tho, but because PC builds in lancer are insane bad manners are a rare thing in OpFors.

[vagrant grotto]

If you’re asking me “should I” that means you think I shouldn’t have it in there

I put it there because what’s good for the goose is good for the gander, was my philosophy

So use it and let me know how it plays

[ashen crown]

I’ll give it a try then!

[sudden cosmos]

I figured this was the intended behavior loop for a mes

Instead of BM

Though speaking of BM, I'm contemplating if the Disarming Retaliation kensei grunts is going to be hilarious, useless, or rude

[vagrant grotto]

lol grunts

[sudden cosmos]

With two chomolungmas on the table, I'm leaning towards useless

But it's a particular fight in wallflower with a reactor and a demolisher. I don't want to make it unwinnable through death by dice game inconvenience

[ashen crown]

If you make ‘em a formation it’ll be less of all of those

[vagrant grotto]

I assume that Grunt was intentional

[ashen crown]

I just like formations lol- would love to use one some day v_v

[vagrant grotto]

Plus Kensei is gonna be rough as a formation since only one of them gets the sword and parry

Though it does mean that the others can overwatch while the sword stays sheathed

[ashen crown]

True, only one of them can be sheathed at a time

Or, only one of them can sheath at a time

It is hitting me how Grunts and Formations with PPG NPCs are an extra layer of funky due to how much Overshield is used as a defensive tool- I like it

Ire + Mesmerist (Mountebanks Jaunt) would make a fun NPC pairing

[vagrant grotto]

If there’s three things I hope I deliver with PPG, it’s

• Supports
• Tanks (not Rearguards)
• Vanguards (not Assailants)

[sudden cosmos]

This is why I'd go with grunts over a formation, yeah

The only issue I'm having with formations is the mobility issues they have on the kinds of maps that I use. Not necessarily huge, but spread objectives and chokes/lanes that require some finagling to get to

[vagrant grotto]

“Valk why don’t you have more artilleries”
“Because the CRB provides 8 of them already”
“But there’s only 4??”
“Look closely, and observe who wants to shoot gun away from harm, at any range, and who actually wants to ride forth to brawl on an objective”

[next jewel]

Two chomo's

https://tenor.com/view/daeth-funi-periflight-dies-from-gif-22212023

[umbral sluice]

out of curiosity, I know you consider Assault an artillery, but what else would you put in that group?

I assume many of the things CRB calls a striker

[vagrant grotto]

• Ace
• Assault
• Engineer
• Scourer

[umbral sluice]

yeah I can see those

Engineer in my experience is really good at holding a point too but terrible at getting onto one so I think Vanguard wouldnt work

[vagrant grotto]

Specter is what I’d consider a “Melee Assailant” more so than Vanguard due to how it’s hit and run and would hate to stand and fight on an objective

Assassin too, to a degree, but it has tools to fuck with positioning at least

But yeah Engineer is the OG Artillery/Rearguard

[umbral sluice]

yeah its kind of a skirmisher of a unit (yes i know, lancer word)

[vagrant grotto]

It’s solidified with Kai’s Rebake

[vagrant grotto]

It was a 4e word first

But yes

[muted blaze]

I think I can broadly agree with this with the exception of Assault [K]

[umbral sluice]

4e really was "you guys dont get it, but your kids are gonna love it" huh

[vagrant grotto]

My statement is confined to CRB; Kai’s rebake makes the assault a proper vanguard

[muted blaze]

Yeah

In which case yes

[umbral sluice]

wondering what changes in particular you'd say make it more vanguard-y compared to crb

[muted blaze]

Assault [K] does really well in engagement

[umbral sluice]

this is true

[vagrant grotto]

It wants to move up to void your cover and shoot you

It’s naturally more aggressive

The best way to void your defensive cover is to move into the objective around which the cover is arrayed

Yeah you can do other flanking too, but the easiest way to void cover is to go point blank

[umbral sluice]

yeah I can see the vision

[vagrant grotto]

Plus the gun’s accuracy bonus nullifies engagement, so it can barrage pretty well at melee range

But yeah my take is that Artillery NPCs are abundant and low in value

Which is why I created the NPCs I did

This is all retread ground though

[ashen crown]

I feel like having 3 (or was it 4?) artilleries in PPG is plenty

[ashen crown]

If you’re using the Kai rebake the Assault is more of a Striker/Artillery hybrid imo, especially if you pick the right optionals. But yeah Scourer, Ace, and Engineer absolutely fall into that category

[vagrant grotto]

Try 1

Capacitor and Prism may be off-artillery but it’s not their primary function

Napalm is the only artillery-forward NPC I have in PPG

And for Kai’s assault, sure, fine

I think you mean Vanguard | Assailant but yeah sure

Like leaning one or the other but it’s a coin toss

In any case: it’s arbitrary categories at the end of the day

[sudden cosmos]

Out of curiosity, have you tested formations that share standard movement and boosts?

I know it's clunky since it's an explicit QA carveout and has possible bug tracking issues if there's a commander on the table though

[vagrant grotto]

No, only Standard Movement

I am debating removing that too, it’s a lot of overhead

But try it with boost

[sudden cosmos]

Having uses formations a few times, it's not much overhead imo?

But I play them fast and loose. They gotta go to An Location and I don't really care how elegantly they get there.

[vagrant grotto]

It was meaningful overhead when running an Assassin Formation

And yeah that’s the way

[sudden cosmos]

I was in fact running an assassin formation

[vagrant grotto]

I’ll consider it for boost then

I have to run more of them

[sudden cosmos]

I've run archer formations and assassin formations. The assassins had boost sharing (because I didn't know they don't share boosts at the time) and apart from taking a little time to resolve all the movement, it wasn't much of an issue

I can run it back, though I will admit they're currently scheduled for the...

31st

[vagrant grotto]

It’s all good

[sudden cosmos]

So it'll be a bit

[vagrant grotto]

I need to run some more melee formations that’s all

[sudden cosmos]

I'm considering an ire or two on the 17th, but they're fighting with the kensei grunts for the melee pest role in the opfor

(Why yes I do plan my opfors like a month in advance)

The Ultra Howler+Ultra Ghost megafight is on the 31st and needs some chaff (hence asking about formations)

[dapper goblet]

Cataphract formations are incredibly fun

You get up to so much bullshit with them, highly recommend

[silent wedge]

Having used them in that role, Aces can also make great Vanguards too. They have the mobility to act as great safeties and Barrel Roll encourages players to invest more resources into knocking them off the point than they'd usually like.

[vagrant grotto]

Ace’s Vanguard-ness very much depends on if the Objective Zone goes to the sky or not

They can fly close to the ground, but it’s riskier and opens them up to melee/cqb

[harsh widget]

I used a Prism in a control sitrep last night and I'm really liking how its projection contests control points. It definitely works as a defender for drawing attention.

[vagrant grotto]

Excellent, glad it’s doing good work for you 😄

[south cypress]

Had a Formation Operator purposefully proc Shrike Armor to blow itself up on my party's Vlad last night. Rudest little guy of the night

[placid glacier]

"and we had to share the stick"

I am really excited to test out the Ire Obelisk and counter "spell of instant miyazaki swamp" my wallflower party

[vagrant grotto]

Obelisk is good fun pressure

I do have changes slated for it though

Lower hp to 5/8/10 and reduce burst to 2

[next jewel]

5 hp for a limited 1 optional deployable... instakilled most of the time by heavy weapons... Yeah that's one turn where the enemy doesn't get to kill you with their heavy weapon or damage trait so still action well spent but does it not feel a little rough to take an optional knowing it will often soak up one hit and then immediately be out of play?

I will test out the ire in my next combat but unfortunately since I am a pretty inexperienced gm who struggles to keep track of everything I tend to minimize the use of optionals

[vagrant grotto]

I had it at 12/15/18 and it was met with shock

[next jewel]

yeah that is pretty damn tough. And burst 3 is huge

[vagrant grotto]

I also had 3 Ire’s that all had one

Though I already nerfed it to burst 2

[next jewel]

Ah, I see😅 yeah I haven't had that many optional using npc's at once ever lol

[vagrant grotto]

It’s 1 quick to rob a quick, it’s a good trade

I largely design my NPCs so that they can be deployed as multiples

[next jewel]

yeah I agree, I just feel like atleast for an elite or ultra, having blown through your optional after 1 quick feels dissapointing

not power per action wise but just scale wise when it comes to the decision to equip it. What if it had one limited use per activation you have? A bit weird and probably not necessary. I'd prob do that personally tho, if u don't like it consider this message me taking notes to self lol

[vagrant grotto]

If playtesting reveals it to be too fragile at 5/8/10 I’ll change it

I have plenty of drones at that HP marker

[ashen crown]

Drones tend to be able to move is the thing

and have an evasion + e-defense higher than 5

[vagrant grotto]

Not usually! Depends

Did you playtest the Obelisk?

[ashen crown]

I'm not commentating on the Obelisk specifically just drones vs deployables in general

[vagrant grotto]

You’re commenting on the Obelisk by comparing it to Drones.

Like, let’s not mince words here

[ashen crown]

Fair- it's just worth noting that the Obelisk is a deployable and that makes it more of a sitting duck than a drone w/ weak evasions, so giving it drone bulk is not necessarily as equal a comparison

[vagrant grotto]

Maybe! Please playtest it and let me know how it goes!

With all due respect, I’m steadily losing my capacity to say that politely

[ashen crown]

Yeah after looking through the CRB roster I agree- there isn't a single NPC Deployable that's really formatted like the Obelisk (that being a Deployable with HP, Evasion, and E-Defense that does something vs the exact same thing but a drone), so it is unmarked territory

Speaking of deployables, should "Carcass" Rampart still be tagged as size 4 after being updated?

[vagrant grotto]

Without looking at the size, can you tell me how tall a rampart is?

[ashen crown]

Not really no- it's just that it no longer has specifically a size 4 footprint and more just acts like a bigger Jericho

Maybe I misread it

[vagrant grotto]

Then it needs the Size

[ashen crown]

Okay yeah the size 4 is referring to the height not the footprint, my b

[next jewel]

restock drone can't move
Latch drone is recharge 6. Can't move unless attached, does that count as can move?
Engineers drones can only move with an optional
Flare drone can't move
Titan snare drone can't move

npc drones don't

also side note flare drone holy HP scaling😰

and it's not limited in any way, quick action and another one is up. Jeez

[ashen crown]

Oh yeah- okay then I guess it's just the evasion and e-defense averaging to 10 then, and even that's not universal. SOme of the less evasive drones have 5/8/10 HP

[next jewel]

I'm not sure my party would've survived today's combat if I'd used this, 2/3 players were getting pretty pelted by the bombard and if it didn't have inaccuracy thanks to that drone they might've very well gotten into a dazed loop (they aren't very experienced so I could def see them not finding a way to salvage that)

[mild trail]

Flare drone HP does that so it can feed the Bombard's Cluster Munitions stacks

[next jewel]

yeah figured, can still probably be used to good effect without that. And if the players move in such a way that you have to hit it, hey, more damage

[next jewel]

that's the place I'm in with my players so idk if I'm the best to playtest stuff lol

[vagrant grotto]

Bombards are nasty customers, as are many CRB artilleries

There’s a reason I have a lowkey “Reheat” of them that removes Cluster Munitions and increases their base damage to 6/8/10

[next jewel]

I love the bombard, really silly

this combat had weak turrets running down conveyors and since they count as characters (drones) the bombard used them to great effect when the players were too close

[silent wedge]

Bombards really feel like a unit that had Loading or a heat cost at one point then it got removed.

No idea if that's actually the case but that's the vibe I get.

[next jewel]

Hey valk, with your house rule buffs to full tech to make them do something on miss, are you going to touch on hacker 3?

[vagrant grotto]

Dunno, but I encourage folks to do their own takes

I tend to throw up my hands when it comes to Talents

[next jewel]

Fair enough. I figured since u dealt with some other talents it was worth a shot to ask since your takes are generally viewed as more balanced I believe (unlike for example my markerlight buff)

(Tbf my markerlight buff was pretty similar to yours now that I think about it)

[vagrant grotto]

I’m not an authority, all my shit is just my take

[next jewel]

Ye ofc. Ur just a much more experienced GM and homebrewer than me

[muted blaze]

Who has the gall to try and rework the talents... Couldn't be me

[next jewel]

Ayo u got a doc?

[muted blaze]

#1433168090371461241

(Sorry For the self promotion in ur channel Valk)

[vagrant grotto]

You’re good, I’d rather discussion of your stuff happen in your thread than carry out here

[muted blaze]

Same

[vagrant grotto]

Link that shit when relevant and topical haha

[visual nest]

Reading Daggerheart there is something that I found interesting you didn't homerule. I think it's because you play on a VTT.
And it's making attacks that target multiple characters, like AoEs, only roll once to hit. Much like you would do RAW for damage.

[ashen crown]

What are you talking about?

[visual nest]

Not PPG per say but I know about Valk interest in limiting the number of actions that has to be done, so I found interesting that he didn't touch AoEa and the increase in the number of roll they lead to.
Sorry if it wasn't the place

[ashen crown]

I mean... I guess???

[vagrant grotto]

Yeah no Reazorgot is right

It’s a thing I could do

[ashen crown]

I think it'd end up being more clunky once you consider different characters in an AoE can have different accuracy/difficulty sums

[vagrant grotto]

Roll 1d20 and 6d6kh1 in order and then apply the 6d6kh1 as appropriate

[ashen crown]

It'd also make {V} Overcharge WAY better

[vagrant grotto]

Indeed, AOE stocks soaring

[ashen crown]

I don't think they were ever down

[vagrant grotto]

That could be good, or very bad

[ashen crown]

imo- very bad if you ever decide to deploy a Limitless Bombard, {V} or not

[dapper goblet]

oh! Finished my ire-forward combat. Largely positive, a few thoughts:

1. as stated before, they really need a reach buff. Sensors, speed, something.
2. ruinous reactor actually procced. They didn’t die after, but it did significantly change how players interact with them. I find it funny that because it resists all damage heat and burn, ire is actually TANKIER when exposed. Query if this interacts well with their self-shred. I think I prefer self-damage model of excruciating for this reason as a matter of fact.
3. I might just have been rolling poorly but I feel like the flail would play better if you chopped off the inaccuracy and on-miss effect. I see the vision but it just makes the whole package feel a touch slow overall.
4. I really like the overshield protocol chickanery. Wondering if the ap energy needs to scale 1/2/3, because it felt inconsequential at t2.

I ran them alongside mobility buff zealots, torrents, support leeches, and a bombard. Their mobility felt ok with all that movement and knockback support, but it would have been a bit painful otherwise.

T2 holdout-adjacent sitrep, player comp was standard issue hacker lich, reaction gunner tortuga, melee lycan, melee toku, and pacifist tarax

I’m meditating on point 4 and I might cut their health a little, buff the overshield and damage numbers a bit on bedevil, and make the protocol 2 heat. I found the ruinous reactor interaction super compelling and I would enjoy it if that was really brought to the forefront.

Plus I think it would give the Ire a really interesting “ramping threat” dynamic where they’re a bit of a problem, but if left alone too long they become much harder to take off the board safely

[next jewel]

Did you play with Valk's rules about the overheated condition?

[vagrant grotto]

Thank you for the feedback! Here’s what I have:

1. Last playtest, I buffed their speed to 5. They seemed to do alright with 5 speed + 5 sensors and I think I’ll commit to that? Did you run them with speed 4?
2. This is exciting to see haha. I managed to turn it on (but not explode it) last playtest, but Overheated made it very hard to do things as a result. I still think the self shred is my preference though
3. It varies. I rolled hot last playtest and landed the flail several times. The on-miss psychological pressure is also good to have, imo, and dovetails into what you mentioned about “kill this thing before it ramps up”
4. Noted on the damage. I was worried about AP free action damage that would stack with the flail, but maybe it’d be okay at the end of the day

[dapper goblet]

I do not, which probably changes how the ire plays pretty significantly.

I actually do think this is funny because overheated vs base rules makes them work very differently

[vagrant grotto]

I’ve got stuff I have to think about re: Ire and Overheated

[dapper goblet]

I ran them with 4 speed, 5 speed probably feels good enough yeh!

[next jewel]

Yeah, can't really keep fighting while exposed when all of its systems and weapons are self heat and overheated and exposed are so intertwined:/

[vagrant grotto]

The point was raised to me that if I just let it ignore overheated, it could just keep sustaining with Overshield at higher tiers

I don’t know if that’s a true problem but it was on my mind

I may have it ignore overheated just for consistency though

[next jewel]

Ofc it's still a good trait to not take double damage until it can take its turn to stabilize

[dapper goblet]

I think “npc sustain” is an oxymoron in lancer

[next jewel]

But a bit more anticlimactic

[muted blaze]

If needed, you could probs bake overheated into exposed as a trait

[dapper goblet]

95% of the time when an npc dies it’s overkilled by a lot, or being bursted down in one turn

[muted blaze]

Eh

I've seen NPCs be killed via attrition a decent amount

[umbral sluice]

think it depends a lot on the party comp ime

and if invis or high evasion are in play because those tend to be killed in vastly different ways to most

[muted blaze]

Killed via 12 billion procs of Reliable or 4d6 damage to their 5 hit points

[vagrant grotto]

I’m personally pretty satisfied with the Overshield at T1 and T2 from the last couple playtests

[dapper goblet]

Probably true! The threat profile of the ire is such that it’s going to be taking chunky damage anyway though

[umbral sluice]

there are exactly two ways to kill a hornet lmao

[vagrant grotto]

I don’t wanna eat into it’s HP too much because that means it’s nuke-vulnerable

[muted blaze]

Simply hit lol

It's that easy

[vagrant grotto]

Regardless noted on all counts

[umbral sluice]

my friend last session firing into a tier 2 hornet at neutral, still critting and just killing the thing

[vagrant grotto]

This is helpful

[dapper goblet]

Like hornets get attritioned out, so do specters, but ronins kinda just die or don’t lol

Happy to help. I think you’re right about the flail FWIW, you convinced me

[vagrant grotto]

I will be honest, I may reduce the threat radius on Ire in general

Realized this with Howler too

[dapper goblet]

Yeah the threat 2 does feel unneeded

[vagrant grotto]

They’re mobile enough to actually reach the opponent

[dapper goblet]

Esp with a speed buff.

[vagrant grotto]

I’m usually so worried about melee being able to, you know melee

[dapper goblet]

Transposition lets you close the gap in a way that makes it irrelevant for “range” usage, so it just gives it a weirdly big overwatch presence

[vagrant grotto]

Big battlefields and all that

[muted blaze]

God forbid a mech have hobbies

[vagrant grotto]

I think threat 2 does work for Knight and Mesmerist, and I plan to keep that

But I’m looking to dump threat on Howler, Ire, and potentially Boombox (for an AOE definition of Threat)

[dapper goblet]

Agree

Maybe not for howler? I dunno, it feels important for them

[next jewel]

4. I mean yeah by the time the Ire goes up a tier the players HP is up by atleast 4 but usually more so they can probably handle it

[vagrant grotto]

It was a hella tarpit last playtest

Elite Howler was hitting left and right and stopping movement

It was honestly quite oppressive!

[dapper goblet]

I’ve only run one and it was in kind of a weird circumstance so I’ll concede this being a paper read issue

[vagrant grotto]

No absolutely, on paper it feels like something it needs

But its sheer quantity of overwatch made it dominating

[dapper goblet]

Size 2 does wind up mattering a lot in practice too

Like, weirdly more than you’d think

[vagrant grotto]

It was also Dustgrave Combat 3 map

Dark tunnels

[dapper goblet]

Yeah that’ll do it

[umbral sluice]

map was very cluttered up and I was slowed with the objective so said overwatches were a massive threat

[vagrant grotto]

The nice thing is that Howl no longer scales with enemies affected, so I can have it howl for 1 target without feeling bad about survivability

[umbral sluice]

how oppressive it felt definitely was influenced greatly by the sitrep, in that case

but I wouldnt be opposed to seeing the threat dropped imo

[vagrant grotto]

Indeed, but it lined up with other experiences too

Either it doesn’t matter or it invalidates “step” effects (like ramming them 1 space)

[umbral sluice]

yeah thats true

[vagrant grotto]

So, imma test it with 1 threat and Burst 1 howl

Also, as expected, Prone Enablers are killer with Howlers

Boombox, Torrent, yeah

Oh yeah @dapper goblet I am unfortunately adding the save back to Undertow, and probably reworking Torrent a bit

[dapper goblet]

You bastard!

Nah undertow needs the save tbh

[vagrant grotto]

Something about it just isn’t working out yeah

Anchor can get away with the Impair

[umbral sluice]

prone on no save was really scary that playtest it felt like

[vagrant grotto]

Prone is a different beast

[dapper goblet]

I think its core kit is very good, a lot of its optionals could use a hard look

[umbral sluice]

mainly due to how there are very few ways to clear prone and we needed our standard move to get the objective anywhere

[vagrant grotto]

Even AOE prone WITH a save is rough, from Boombox play

[vagrant grotto]

I was honestly gonna change Tsunami, probably change Wavebreaker/storm surge

[dapper goblet]

I actually very rarely find myself running torrent optionals on torrent because they either feel a bit too mean or a little jank

Yeah that seems right

[vagrant grotto]

Thinking this for Wavebreaker:

• targeting is “special”
• torrent moves in a line 3 and attacks everything it moves through
• anything hit is knocked 3 spaces in the direction of the Torrent’s movement

And then like. Ditch Storm Surge

[dapper goblet]

Yeah that’s kind of how I feel storm surge should have always worked

[vagrant grotto]

Hindsight and playtesting yeah

[dapper goblet]

Oh 100%. I see the attempt to diversify the threat profile but it felt a little underwhelming

[vagrant grotto]

Hm. Maybe move Undertow’s prone to a Cone 3 wallop quick action

So it rushes with Wavebreaker and then Wallops

Constrains the Prone saves

[next jewel]

Me when my white witch player uses fluid burst house guard 2😭

I know the pain...

[vagrant grotto]

Also if you have more feedback for torrent optionals please hit me up

[dapper goblet]

I’d have to parse them again, nothing off the top of my head (because I can’t recall them at the moment mostly lol)

[vagrant grotto]

All I know is I’m keeping Drown in Nanites, I worked hard to cultivate that one

And I like Engulf as a mechanic

It might get tweaked but conceptually it’s staying

[muted blaze]

Tasty mech scale snack

Nom nom

[vagrant grotto]

It’s just very Water Elemental coded, and that’s Torrent

[dapper goblet]

Engulf is very good

I don’t mean to say all the torrents optionals are bad at all, just a few feel kind of wonky. I’ll give them a closer look and see if I have anything actually useful to say later today

[vagrant grotto]

Appreciate it!

Tsunami as a weapon is definitely getting axed, likely in favor of a “high impact round” enhancement for Wavebreaker

[placid glacier]

ah, I was also gonna test it with multiple ires (just two tho)

[vagrant grotto]

If you do, please tweak it to 5/8/10 hp and burst 2

Burst 2 feels right, so I’m interested in how the reduced HP will feel

[placid glacier]

👍

my wallflower party is very control heavy anyway so we'll see how the hp threshold feels for that

they are taking the roles of the double Sentinels from Duvalasaur's combat juicing so we'll see how that effects their survivability

[vagrant grotto]

oh

That is a very different gameplay style than Sentinel hahahaha

[placid glacier]

(that sniper is also getting swapped out for a Napalm because. it both feels narratively fitting but also will still have a bit of that aoe denial from base game deadmetal rounds)

[ashen crown]

Howler makes sense because it takes a Berserker style approach to melee where it basically just attacks everyone next to it and most of its base kit just gives it more attacks, and it’s already size 2 so it’s got reach and uses it to lock people down.

Why Ire tho? Not sure where that conclusion came from in discussion

[placid glacier]

I figured but eeeh- here's hoping that the Obelisks can provide a kinda similar point of area denial

[vagrant grotto]

It had hella Overwatch potential

Not needed for what it is

Which is: A run up and smack you mech

[ashen crown]

I suppose that’s fair, though I’d argue overwatch potential is kinda important to it due to the fact that that’s how it gets its bedevil damage - I always saw it as an NPC striker that likes locking down its foes. But playtest it first and all that

S’not like Lightning Generator has range 2 anyhow

Now I wonder if “hella overwatch potential” is necessary for units like Ronin or Cataphract. Specter needs the overwatch potential to make it better at isolating targets and for ambusher tactics, but Ronin and Cataphract tend to be adjacent to their targets and are plenty capable of chasing them down if they flee

But perhaps Ire is a different beast in general thanks to Bedevil already giving it an AoE of sorts

[vagrant grotto]

It is absolutely not a lockdown mech, it’s a “get the fuck out of here, asshole” mech

[ashen crown]

Fair enough- it can sometimes be easy to confuse the two. Sentinel can be either depending on its optional kit for example

[vagrant grotto]

Yeah Sentinel is a lockdowner, absolutely

Rebake makes it a keepouter too

[ashen crown]

Vanguards trend towards Lockdown while Assailants trends towards flush out-ers, am I remembering the terminology right?

[vagrant grotto]

No

Vanguards take objectives, driving opponents off of them

Assailants just kill

[ashen crown]

I guess “tarpit/lockdown” doesn’t really fall into the role classification system

[vagrant grotto]

Tanks lock down, Rearguards lock out

[ashen crown]

Never mind

[vagrant grotto]

It absolutely does, that’s a Tank

[ashen crown]

One day I’ll remember all these roles and what they mean

[vagrant grotto]

Tanks put enemies in gay baby jail

[muted blaze]

Can this be pinned

[vagrant grotto]

By keeping them right where they want them, Tanks restrict the targeting potential of their opponents

It’s part of damage mitigation

[ashen crown]

I’m like 80% sure Valk already has a Blog Post about this I just don’t know where to find that one- nor should I be looking rn I’m really procrastinating

[muted blaze]

Yeah but this is funnier

[vagrant grotto]

See tank: https://trainlightning.com/the-six-combat-roles-of-lancer/

[ashen crown]

Bookmarking this lol

[muted blaze]

I can't find Gay baby Jail in this page

[vagrant grotto]

It’ll have to live in your heart then

[muted blaze]

🫡

[ashen crown]

You think you’ll ever make a… idk what you’d make, a blog post maybe? with a table of the role classifications of the PPG NPCs?

Similar to the one you have in the article

[vagrant grotto]

Maybe

[placid glacier]

Ditto

[placid glacier]

... actually I might finally use a Capacitor

[dapper goblet]

A few misc thoughts on torrent optionals/features:

1. Storm Surge - It feels kind of low impact given how wavebreaker already lets the torrent move around, but also really punishing for players that rely on overwatches in a way that feels a bit unnecessary. Its a bit "feast or famine", ironically, and I think this is exacerbated because most players heavily invest in hull, making Hull saves feel even more anemic. Ultimately this winds up feeling like a double boost a lot which is kind of blah. I think your rework will give it a lot more of a direction.
2. Scalding Greywash - feels a bit strange if you're reworking storm surge to be attack based. I wonder if this is more interesting as a burn-variant of Cataphract's trample - there's lots of opportunities for torrent to slide onto and through people, and good synergy with Drown in Nanites.
3. wash away - the vision here is good but without Roil it feels kind of disconnected from the rest of the kit (and the torrent doesn't feel like it has the loose actions to ram a lot of the time (presuming you're reworking Undertow). Frankly, even with undertow as-is this just feels a little funny because it necessitates some turn order shenanigins to get real value.
4. Roil - I think this is fine as is, my second favorite of the optionals by a big margin. "Making its own luck" in terms of difficult terrain is a good spot.
5. Crashing - I know you said you're reworking this so, yeah, I'll hold off
6. Drown in nanites - this is just really cool. I do wonder if there should be a "lingering end effect" as this has a fair number of counters even outside of that save and the bespoke hull save quick action - ferrous lash/HorOS1 strike again - and i do often find that this is a bit of a "win more" for the torrent anyway, so a "lose less" cushion might be welcome.

[sudden cosmos]

Tbh, I was using storm surge more as a bonus mobility tool than anything else

5 extra movement with some incidental upside

[placid glacier]

something I did notice is that the tactic section of the capacitor still refers to arc feedback in the most recent version of the pdf and lcp

[ashen crown]

Ya know speaking of capacitor, I recall Valk saying that Capacitor isn’t really a true artillery in PPG considering damage output isn’t the focus, but tbh with a line 15 arcing inherent accuracy bow with 4/6/8 damage scaling, a Capacitor is perfectly capable of out damaging a Rainmaker, all the while giving damage boosting in a way comparable to Zealot. So while some of its damage output does come from support it averages out to like. Assailant Artillery levels of damage from being on the field.

[placid glacier]

god having both High Voltage and Ires on the field might be really neat and flavorful

but also might make getting accurate testing info for the Ire tough

[vagrant grotto]

Fuck lol I’ll fix that

[vagrant grotto]

Also this is fine and good, just go for it

[placid glacier]

fair dos

time to send my players to the marv zone

https://tenor.com/view/lmao-gif-17985395765206926662

[ashen crown]

Bad Sitrep idea:
“SSC is short for Shitty Sniper Cowards”

• Capacitor
• Prism
• Sniper
• Rainmaker

Technically- it would work well. Capacitor can stand behind one of the backline Artilleries and snipe them + the Prism Projector. Prism can lock down + Lock On to keep buddies safe and help out Rainmaker. Rainmaker can harry and suppress. And Sniper can threaten anyone who wants to make a run for them.

You’ll probably want like. One non artillery character. To supplement. But it’d be funny.

[silent wedge]

No. A fifth artillery

[viscid ingot]

Witch

But it acts like artillery, just tech zapping from miles away.

[silent wedge]

I'm trying to think of what sitrep you'd even use for this one. Anything with a control point is basically out of the question.

[viscid ingot]

Extraction and/or Escort?

[muted blaze]

Holdout