#Prototype Pattern Groups

1 messages · Page 22 of 1

steel apex
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A zippy high speed flying frame gets stuff that wants it to be close to enemies like Stuncrown, a small frame gets things based on size like Oasis Wall, it has two weapons in license and can't use both at once, etc

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And all told, I think this actually makes Dusk Wing alt frames surprisingly hard to design because there really isn't a coherent "there" there

ashen crown
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I will say that if StunCrown and Oasis Wall were offered on licenses for frames that were inherently larger than size 1/2 that would cause problems- a Paracausal Mod situation if you will

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Otherwise you could easily Fomorian Frame/size up into some very potent control tools

steel apex
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Back during Winter Scar playtesting days, someone asked "hey why are you making the Amber Phantom a Metalmark alt instead of making a cool controller Dusk Wing alt" and, beyond the very obvious answer of "because if I wanted to make a Dusk Wing alt I would make one, instead I want to make a Metalmark alt," the other part of this answer is because there's nothing cohesive or coherent to build a dusk wing alt around in the first place

steel apex
ashen crown
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Ohhh good point

steel apex
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there's already zero gateway to that

ashen crown
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I didn't consider that

steel apex
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StunCrown IS very good, undeniably so

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and yeah being on a bigger frame might make it even more powerful, but the issue with StunCrown on the Dusk Wing isn't really size related, that's more an Oasis Wall thing

ashen crown
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I do think Flicker Field does have synergy with the license, but in a very "it's so all roundedly good it'd have syngery with anything" kinda way

steel apex
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StunCrown is weird because everything about the Dusk Wing says "be zippy and fly a lot and stay away from people" and StunCrown says "move into the middle of the enemy forces"

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Veil Rifle is a Line 10 weapon in a game where, even if Tom may personally not like it, verticality exists

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so you're measuring lines from the air

ashen crown
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Like yeah the movement naturally ties into the playstyle Oasis Wall and StunCrown encourage but not really anything else. Hell when it comes to Overwatch + Reaction Fire Flicker Field is actually worse on Dusk Wing since Harlequin Cloak stacks on it meaning Flicker Field will get consumed for no reason

steel apex
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Flicker Field actually works weird with the Dusk Wing because, like, it already gets on-turn invisibility to begin with

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you can bank Flicker Field, but it's still one of those slightly awkward "this kind of has redundancy" things

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the broader point is, all of this stuff put into one license and attached to the Dusk Wing feels like it's basically a clearinghouse for leftover parts

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and then the core power is just also kind of "and now there's this"

ashen crown
# steel apex Veil Rifle is a Line 10 weapon in a game where, even if Tom may personally not l...

Lines and Cones are weird to me since I heard somewhere that when it comes to measuring LoS and cover you don't measure from the point of origin but rather the user, so a size 3 character could shoot a line through a size 3 object and so long as it can peek over it hit everyone on the other side. In hindsight this doesn't entirely make sense so I should probably double check that rule

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But if you ruled it like that Veil Rifle should be able to hit everything below a Dusk Wing's line so long as the Dusk Wing can see them

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Again I need to double check if that's actually the case because that doesn't sound right

steel apex
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if I fire a railgun down at someone from an extreme high angle, I don't get to attack someone "below the AoE"

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Lines are 1 space wide

mild trail
steel apex
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"well verticality is bad and dumb and flight should just be a status so none of this ever has to come up" is a point one could argue and tom is doing exactly that in icon, but lancer has a Z-axis

mild trail
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You draw your line of spaces, if you have LOS to the stuff in those spaces you target them

You don't target stuff that's not in the line of spaces

steel apex
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anyway the reason I even bring this up is just to note, since this thread is sometimes used as a clearinghouse for valk to spitball hacking PC-side mechs, that I actually think doing Dusk Wing stuff is probably one of the harder things in lancer

dapper goblet
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Actually a funny question that doesnt come up much - what "height" on a size 2+ character does a line originate from? I assume dealers choice.

ashen crown
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It’s weird how verticality does and doesn’t exist in Lancer because in the rules for flight as a separate thing, it says flying characters can ignore obstructions while moving separately from being able to move in Verticality Space. This isn’t meant to be a derision of flight in Lancer it’s just weird

steel apex
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"can I get the benefit of Solar Backdrop by being a Barbarossa and shooting a size 1 mech" has been definitively ruled as "no"

dapper goblet
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Oh no not like that

ashen crown
mild trail
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Solar backdrop is measured from the feet, but you can have a line come out of your face instead of your legs

dapper goblet
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Like if a barb is firing a veil rifle at something hovering at height 3 next to it, does that start at the top of its head for calculating the line

mild trail
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Very useful if you want to not railgun a friend in the face

dapper goblet
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Yeah thats the question - the Solar backdrop bit I know

steel apex
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Yeah I think my point is those are going to get the same answer

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"if I'm taller can I shoot taller to hit a guy flying" is also going to likely be ruled as "no"

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or to avoid friendly fire, same thing, I don't think there's secret hidden "danger close railgun tech" for being bigger than your friends

dapper goblet
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That feels weird though because you can calculate range/threat from any of your horizontal squares, and, theoretically, lancer doesn't parse the z axis differently for those calculations

I dunno, ive played a fair bit of lancer and this has never once come up so 🤷

vagrant grotto
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The idea that Veil Rifle could “fall” from the line like an actual veil sounds like a neat concept

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But yeah legit Dusk Wing is kinda all over the place, except for a major through line: Make Team Harder To Hit

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4 and 2 halves of the license options lean into that (the two halves being Neurospike: Mirage and the Impair half of StunCrown)

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Which is to say, every piece of gear has something to do with either granting Impair to enemies or Cover/Invisible to allies

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This is why I started touching Neurospike: Mirage to make it an “all or one” invis effect, as an aggro modifier

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And yeah having used Flicker Field on a Dusk Wing it’s like 90% redundant with Harlequin Cloak (boy I love losing Flicker Field to Overwatches, he said through gritted teeth)

ashen crown
vagrant grotto
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But yeah, if I had to design a Dusk Wing Alt by tomorrow it would be a Size 1 Mesmerist style frame

vagrant grotto
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Stuff that makes it incrementally harder to attack (instead of outright preventing it)

ashen crown
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Yeah the entire kit is a little defender oriented

vagrant grotto
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So yeah I would lean hard into tanking/control more so than support

vagrant grotto
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Now I’m envisioning where I’d put a Death By Glamour type effect

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On a frame, or modifying flicker field

ashen crown
vagrant grotto
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Yeah Shrike Armor too, though Death By Glamour would key off misses

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I’d probably put it in place of Harlequin Cloak

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“Attacks that miss the Dusk Wing inflict 1 Heat on the attacker.”

ashen crown
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Tbh NPCs do take heat a lot less than PCs too so maybe it's one of those "they deserve it" kinda moments

vagrant grotto
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That’s also my thought. Fewer attacks per unit too

ashen crown
vagrant grotto
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Or a flower

ashen crown
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If it's Karrakin yes

vagrant grotto
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Or make up my own RKF thing

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Or just make it !V! Dusk Wing

ashen crown
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Hecatonchieres saw the flower and AD&D Monster motifs and threw them both out the window

vagrant grotto
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Details shmetails

ashen crown
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And Vlad is... vlad

umbral sluice
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the ipsn naming scheme is Wet after all

vagrant grotto
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Hecatonchieres was in AD&D no?

ashen crown
# vagrant grotto Or just make it !V! Dusk Wing

Eh, it's different enough that calling it that feels incorrect. I'm assuming that in making this alt frame the flight isn't going to be the focus anymore so idk why it would still be there

ashen crown
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And also not in the monster manual, I think it was in an expansion

vagrant grotto
vagrant grotto
ashen crown
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Feels more worth it to make an alt, it looks like you have more ideas for it than "just swap the core power" and it'd be a shame to constrain them

vagrant grotto
ashen crown
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Ah gotcha

vagrant grotto
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So I’m debating things

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Also: Making Alt frames is a slippery slope to madness

ashen crown
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That is also true, I have made 0 progress on my Barbarossa alt for months and it haunts me

vagrant grotto
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The design space for a bona fide alt frame is also different

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I have to commit to CRB Dusk Wing’s licensed tools

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Like Kai said, that’s gonna be hard to design

ashen crown
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I personally don't see it that way because Mesmerist lays a lot of good foundations for the concepts but that's just me :P

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Also Prism to a degree has elements you can steal

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Plus the fact that you'd wanna design it to be a dodge tank invites trying to add an element of "Orchis Perfect Parry but not exactly" as a trait to make the strategy viable

vagrant grotto
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I legit don’t want to commit to crb dusk wings tools

ashen crown
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Valid

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An idea for a different license

vagrant grotto
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And also how maybe I should’ve just stolen Veil Rifle for Prism lol

ashen crown
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In what way?

vagrant grotto
ashen crown
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It's not too late to do that

dapper goblet
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Dusk wing license is kind of slippery in its own way. I do think it is cohesive in an overall vibe (make your enemy miss/dissuade/prevent them from making attacks) but the dusk wing itself does not actually feed that goal

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I've said this many, many times before but I think if you posted a lot of the CRB licenses as homebrew in the channel you'd get told they were not well designed. I don't know what that says about whom but I think there is a lot of hard won experience reflected in the more focused nature of post-release licenses (including even the long rim, which is like 5 minutes post release)

vagrant grotto
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Yeah no, Lancer CRB was the first for Massif

dapper goblet
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There's a real question as to whether the license should be "a toolkit that is appealing to the frame it is based off of" (see, sherman) or "a taste of that frame you can bring to other chassis" (see, pegasus)

tame wharf
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god i hate pegi's liscence

vagrant grotto
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Though if my homebrew takes are anything to go off of, it’s that I think Long Rim may have more focused design niches, but… a LOT of decision points

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I’m not here to hate on licenses/crb stuff

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Let’s keep it constructive

tame wharf
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i mean its fucking good but its also a pain in the ass to alt

vagrant grotto
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Ah context understood

tame wharf
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its not hatred (general) its hatred (how do i make a frame designed around using these)

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my Alicorn is cool but it isn't good

ashen crown
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Stellar Codex's solution was "give more mounts but you can turn them off" and even then one of the traits is anti-synergetic with Autogun

tame wharf
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mhm

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pain in the ass to alt, good as fucking lisence

ashen crown
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IT's pretty good tho, and that trait is not too important to the overall frame gimmick

vagrant grotto
tame wharf
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this is a fair point

ashen crown
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Right this is getting off topic fair point

tame wharf
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i say, having made like 12

dapper goblet
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sigh

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alt frames

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anyway

tame wharf
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yea

vagrant grotto
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I’m eagerly awaiting any feedback about my reworked Ghost Paradox State

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And its HP bump

dapper goblet
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oh the ghost?

tame wharf
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where is this?

ashen crown
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If I lacked honor you'd be getting it tomorrow, but we're already 5 rounds into that combat

vagrant grotto
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Long story short: it’s no longer a coin toss

tame wharf
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lets crack this open

tame wharf
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QA

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idk why i keep saying QC

vagrant grotto
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Quick action yes

dapper goblet
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Yeah was just looking at it

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i like that change a lot - lets players still play keepaway with the hatchet but it can feasibly actually trigger once people know how it works

tame wharf
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when it says 'be intangible during that action' i assume they just become tangible the moment the action finishes resolving?

vagrant grotto
tame wharf
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okay so its something the PCs have to trick out then if they wanna deal something Big to the ghost

vagrant grotto
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If you lock on to them, they interrupt by becoming intangible and the action is lost

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Yes exactly

tame wharf
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either that or catch 22 it

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i like it!

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Superimpose Firmament
System, Recharge 6+, Quick Action
The Ghost imposes the Firmament upon a  2
area. Characters, objects, terrain, zones, and
sitrep objectives are INTANGIBLE while within the
area (so only INTANGIBLE characters can interact
with zones and sitrep objectives within). The area
lasts until the end of the Ghost’s next turn.

vagrant grotto
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Thank you! I had it as a 50-50 chance of losing the action before but folks just tended to lock on or scan it first anyway

tame wharf
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reading through other Ghost stuff: where is the Burst placed?

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does it originate from itself?

vagrant grotto
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Burst 2 is always implied to be around itself unless stated otherwise

tame wharf
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ahh, okay

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the amusing this is a Calendula being on the field actually makes the Ghost worse off

vagrant grotto
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Ghost just wants its buddy to live

tame wharf
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its a really cool idea for a support

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I do like that Paradox State isnt a reaction

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The Ghost has to spend a QA that they could spend doing something else turning it on

vagrant grotto
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Yeah! Granted it doesn’t have much else it can do, but yeah!

tame wharf
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by default, anyway

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oh yeah it has no gun

ashen crown
vagrant grotto
# ashen crown Bolster

Yes thank you for making my point lol

I literally had to give it Bolster+ so it had a better default turn lol

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Because yeah, not much else to do besides throw a lock on or an invade here or there

ashen crown
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The Bolster is pretty fantastic too

vagrant grotto
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I guess it can technically Ram

ashen crown
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Ram is also pretty fantastic

tame wharf
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ELEVATOR CLIP Trait
The Anomaly cannot leave the ground. It instantly
climbs to the top of objects or terrain without
expending movement, and immediately descends
to the ground without taking damage when falling.

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i hate/love this template

ashen crown
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That one's been there for a while

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IT's fun

tame wharf
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ive not fully read most of this tbqh

ashen crown
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Glad you're getting into it :D

tame wharf
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the Anomaly feels hombrewy in a way ive not seen other things

ashen crown
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It's power budget is definied by being unpredictable is how I put it

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Which means it's a bit swingy but that's part of the charm

vagrant grotto
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And adding some puzzles here and there

tame wharf
vagrant grotto
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Brigand does

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Occultist too

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Anomaly doesn’t though iirc

ashen crown
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Brigand also attacks some weird parts of the character sheet tbh

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Do you think the Prototype should have a Displacer Equivalent?

umbral sluice
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as in like massive damage but huge heat cost? idk

ashen crown
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No just in terms of aesthetic not necessarily mechanics

umbral sluice
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ah i see

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yeah aesthetically i love the idea

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mechanically is an entirely different story haha

ashen crown
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Like if they had it you'd be able to say "yeah that's a displacer I'm pretty sure"

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Btw Valk I love the name "Rebaked Bioplating" it's so clever

muted blaze
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Displacer for enemies, they fire it they become exposed and stunned

ashen crown
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I was thinking just exposed but stunned also works lol

vagrant grotto
muted blaze
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Oh ffs

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I had to spell it out in my head

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😅

umbral sluice
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oh goddamn it

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i was like "wait did kai bioplating get change in reba- KAI"

placid glacier
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On the earlier note I do have a Calendula in that party soooo. It's kinda a "feeding cats to coyotes" encounter but-

sudden cosmos
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I can confirm that a ghost on the table when you're a calendula is an enriching experience

placid glacier
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... planning my line ups and I really do not field strikers all that often I'm realizing

umbral sluice
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Veteran Ghost nuked in one turn lmao

vagrant grotto
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I do wonder how much would actually change if the Ghost granted Invisible alongside intangible

ashen crown
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If an effect such as Chains of Prometheus, Shrike Code, Clamp Bombs, or Flaw_PLUS/MINUS were applied to a Prism through the projector, would the damage/heat they deal be halved because it was applied through the projector or full because it’s on the prism and not the projector?

vagrant grotto
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Intent is to deflect attacks and instantaneous effects

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Hm

ashen crown
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I know stuff like Hyperdense affects… effects like that

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But that‘s from the user not the Prism

vagrant grotto
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Yeah I’m trying to think of the implications here

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It means it’s easier to kill a Prism with indirect control effects like FLAW and Banish and stuff, or just, clamp bombs lol

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I think I’m okay with this??

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Like my mind is like “this is related to arguing CRB Brace resists the second half of Tear Down”

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I think I’d let the after effect ignore the Resistance

ashen crown
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I think it’s okay, I’m just not sure if RAW agrees with me on that or not

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Plus when it comes to avoiding effects like that the Projection works just as well as the prism, so if you wanna adhere to Chains just put the Projection next to the user

vagrant grotto
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Yeah exactly

ashen crown
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Stuff like Flaw_MINUS and Banish are harder to avoid, and Shrike Code doesn’t care, but eh doesn’t matter much

sudden cosmos
vagrant grotto
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Yeah exactly, most times it won’t matter except for direct intangible since usually folks indirectly affect the ghost

opaque crescent
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I personally don't think it's an issue that PCs with access to intangible can mess with Ghosts so well

vagrant grotto
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Yeah I’m not convinced it’s needed either tbf, but it’s a thought that crossed my mind

umbral sluice
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having been on the receiving end of it it's honestly fine

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it doesnt feel any different to having a monarch come up to your deathcounter bastion and nuke it

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or a nanocomp HMG vs your hornet

vagrant grotto
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It’s mostly that intangible is such a niche thing with niche counters to the point that someone using that niche counter on a regular basis may make Ghosts unappetizing?

vagrant grotto
umbral sluice
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i do agree but i think my point still stands roughly

tame wharf
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Valk putting Nanocomp and Paracaul on his hit list

ashen crown
umbral sluice
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nanocomp already got the nerf hammer (good)

ashen crown
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Same with FADE Cloak

umbral sluice
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if you've ever witnessed nanocomp tachyon lance you'll want to kill it with hammers too

ashen crown
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The Calendula still needs to go intangible to chase after the Ghost, so when it does so it’s conceding that it’s not interacting with any other characters apart from the Ghost for a turn while leaving itself vulnerable to the Ghost Host if it survives, meaning the Ghost is still doing it’s job as a defender

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Imo it’s not as perfect a counter as it seems

vagrant grotto
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Störtebeker thoughts:

replacing the existing traits and core power/passive:

Truesilver
Protocol, 1/scene
During this turn, your weapons without Reliable gain Reliable 1 (Auxiliary), 2 (Main), 3 (Heavy), or 4 (Superheavy). Your weapons that previously had Reliable instead gain AP.

Hopkins Doctrine
Quick Action
If you took the Skirmish action this turn, reload all of your weapons not used to attack this turn.

Truesilver Arsenal
Active (1 CP), Protocol
Truesilver lasts until the end of the scene.

These aren’t gonna be actualized anytime soon they’re just on my mind

umbral sluice
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i do like how these look atm, but i'm curious as to why you're going about changing storte? not in a judgemental way mind, i have my own gripes with storte and am curious to hear if you align with me

vagrant grotto
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There’s too much shit going on and they’re all nickels and dimes

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That and I don’t think that Combined Arms 3 should be encouraged (personal design opinion)

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And it’s just all amounting to critfishing

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I want to cut out any “okay since I crit I’m now going to react to that by using Hopkins Doctrine” or what have you

ashen crown
vagrant grotto
ashen crown
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It’d be pretty different but warranted tbh

vagrant grotto
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It has its fun game breaking by getting AP Reliable and Reload on a quick action

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Instead of dancing around the edge of propriety with a bunch of edge cases

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“Oh I get to reload, but don’t worry GM it’s only on crits with main weapons of the opposite type ;)”

Miss me with that coy nonsense, you want to be subversive then take this AP Reliable and quick action reload and have fun

umbral sluice
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personally my main grip with it is the combined arms 3 thing

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it kind of shoehorns it into one particular build it excels at and little else unless you really try

ashen crown
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I like the idea of reload on a crit, but it's mainly a thing on exotic gear for a reason

vagrant grotto
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I mean on-crit effects also scale weird late game

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Reload on crit is cute, reload on this specific crit for a specific class of weapons is too cute

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Störtebeker is the mythical 6 trait homebrew frame

muted blaze
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Crit fishing was absolutely bashing my head against the wall when designing Centimane rework

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I can't comment on Storte changes because I've never seen one in play

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And when I think about playing one my mind kinda just bluescreens

placid glacier
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I have only been witness to stort nonsense in one shot skirmish games so I don't have too good a frame of reference

vagrant grotto
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I've seen Störtebeker used and it's just a lot of overhead for minimal gain

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you get 2 nickels and 4 dimes when it'd be so much nicer to just have 2 quarters

steel apex
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"what if you could do a dance tradeoff between loading ranged and melee" kinda doesn't work great when there basically AREN'T any loading melee weapons

muted blaze
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Doesn't help that if you want to use 1 of the 3 loading melees in the game, 2 are exotic and the other is half way up another licence so if you want to use loading melee you need to beg to your GM or go tortuga 2

steel apex
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yeah it's one of those premises that the game doesn't really mechanically support out of the box. It's like Iconoclast in that it's a thing you have to commit to extensive buildcraft to actually utilize versus something where you just take it and it just works

vagrant grotto
steel apex
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Also, the thing about niche stuff is if you put it in the mech, people will go "oh I should be really focusing on this"

vagrant grotto
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yup exactly exactly

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shit all looks evenly weighted

steel apex
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You can't really attach tags to a mech trait that say "oh don't worry too hard about this one"

umbral sluice
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feeling bad for the new players who saw Castigate and thought it's actually a thing they should try use

dapper goblet
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yeah i've got... significant issues with the storte in its current incarnation

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I think my consern about where you've wound up with it is its a little too close to raleigh outside of having the core up. Increased reload cadance is pretty much the best way to manuver around the raleigh license though so, maybe it just is what it is.

vagrant grotto
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Yeah I'm just recognizing that Raleigh's License is yes the "Loading license" but more even moreso it's the "Reliable license"

dapper goblet
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this is an issue i've grappled with a bit in the past trying to make a raleigh alt and the very specific thing I've noted is it is HARD to make a mech based around reliable feel good, because it necessarily gets less good (relatively) the higher you go in levels and the more grit/accuracy tricks people get.

vagrant grotto
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Raleigh's license does understand though that Reliable is a great Loading consolation prize

dapper goblet
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absolutely for sure

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and AP+reliable is very potent as a combo

sudden cosmos
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Hopefully my performance this weekend will justify thoughts that the stort should have several seats

sudden cosmos
ashen crown
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Oh speaking of PPG feedback, one thing I gotta say the ghost is missing; Quantum Bond doesn’t say where the Ghost appears should quantum bond end

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That was the only conclusion from the last 4 rounds of the playtest combat I finished today- apart from that the conceit was “Ghost is fair but needs a bulk buff”

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So the HP bonus seems warranted

sudden cosmos
ashen crown
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Maybe it can move while bonded I think? I don't exactly know

vagrant grotto
placid glacier
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On topic- I am working on a Machine ||and St. Tellus/Bicam|| Ghost token for my WF game

image.png
sudden cosmos
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I have a machine vulture that I plan on using ratJAMMIN

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Used before, but will use again

vagrant grotto
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Hell yes

opaque crescent
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For those using it, I've pushed an update to the PPG Structure/Stress Foundry module, fixes issue where other tokens would sometimes be targeted during overheat damage, and handles pre-exposing enemies if an attack would deal heat over their heatcap (so exposed will properly apply for any physical damage that same attack deals)

fathom fable
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Am I reading it correctly that Napalm itself doesnt need LoS to the starting point of its attack, and the line attack itself also has arcing, meaning it can snipe around chunks of cover without penalty if I pick the starting point behind the cover?

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Further, do allied Drones count as "controlled" for Occultists purposes, or would it have to use Lead Astray for it?

muted blaze
fathom fable
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Gotcha, thank you, Al!

vagrant grotto
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Yeah if it was simply Allied Drone then I would’ve said Allied instead of Controlled

fathom fable
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I figured as much, also figured double checking wouldnt hurt

ashen crown
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Since it’s not in the text yet, if Quantum Bond ends early due to overheating, stun, etc, where is the ghost moved to? Since it would be off of its turn it wouldn’t be intangible, and it’d be occupying the space of a character/object that it isn’t bonded to meaning it cannot share a space

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Is it the nearest unoccupied space?

vagrant grotto
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like what makes the most sense

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do that

ashen crown
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Gotcha- could be something “not worth putting in the rules” but it is something that came up during play and confused us for a solid second

vagrant grotto
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yeah I'll note it in the bug tracker

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it may need to be a FAQ entry

muted blaze
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Hey @vagrant grotto found a weird case with Omninet grounding anchors and wandering nightmare.

If a mech with Wandering nightmare is outside of the Lodestone and has wandering nightmare what happens?

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Is only the anchor effected? Or is it that ONLY the anchors spaces can be targetted then it functions as normal?

vagrant grotto
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Because it doesn’t target

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Current wording says “allies are not valid targets”

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But Wandering Nightmare doesn’t target anything

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It’s just a zone

muted blaze
#

So wandering nightmare can be slapped anywhere in the zone then it functions as normal

vagrant grotto
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Yeah, though I admit I’m not sure I intended that

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If I was cleaner with my wording I’d probably just say allies Immune to Tech Actions made from outside the area but that again doesn’t handle WN placed within the area

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I need to think about the intent there

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Thanks for bringing it up

muted blaze
#

NP

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We have a party member with wandering nightmare and it should have come up

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Sorry, not anchor... ENEMY UNKNOWN

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A large UNKNOWN size 3 enemy if you catch my drift

vagrant grotto
#

never heard of such a thing

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😉

muted blaze
#

Also got jump scared cos all the enemies have the LEGIOn template and I'm not the GM

placid glacier
#

still debating if I wanna have the head on or not

umbral sluice
#

@vagrant grotto just out of curiosity, why does Gaussian Blur make the Kensei move it's whole speed and not up to? I ran one today and I found it kind of awkward if I wanted to sheathe and run through a guy for the damage without going too far (in this case the Kensei was adjacent to the player), is that the intent behind it, to be unable to stay close if you want to hit them with the damage?

vagrant grotto
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Also probably was just thinking of all the samurai guys with fixed distance dash slices

umbral sluice
#

ahhh that makes sense

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yeah that would be my feeling on it after running one today, Kensei as a whole feels very nice with 5 speed, and a real tangible threat on extraction, but Blur could stand to be "up to" instead of fixed really

muted blaze
#

Feedback written up

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20,000 characters

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233 lines

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Oops

vagrant grotto
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Will read this later tonight, thank you!

muted blaze
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This is tired post session writeup... Didn't want to have the wake up and forgor feedback

vagrant grotto
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I appreciate it and will keep that in mind while reading

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Please get some good rest, I appreciate the write up

tame wharf
#

@muted blaze its funny how badly you mispelled my name

muted blaze
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Sorry 😭

tame wharf
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Ariane

muted blaze
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1am moment

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ANOTHER THING I FORGOT TO ADD

Allied arcing:

  • Blind totally negates allied arcing
  • Thistle found this quite fun to shut down a napalm with a inifltrator 3
  • I personally like arcing as a counter to blind because otherwise it has no to very little counterplay as a "secret third thing that applies over time". This making blind a hard counter to arcing again just makes blind stronger than it already is
tame wharf
#

I will say: there was nothing on any statblock I was like 'oh thats bullshit'. I think the main problem I had was just how many actions would need to be consumed to clear Novel Technology on everything if everything had it.

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If it was harder to clear and was only on 1-2 enemies, like say the Ultra, I think that'

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that would feel better

muted blaze
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Like mentioned, "it should not be spammed" was a general concensuous lmao

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Also, if I had 1 pound for every Ultra support that would be the second NPC that died in a PPG playtest. I would have 2 pounds

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Which isn't much but strange it's happened twice

tame wharf
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Ultras are scary

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They need to be shot 16 times in the chest

umbral sluice
placid glacier
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finished up the MACHINE anchor for my WF game

machine-anchor.png
placid glacier
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and also the Ghost

machine-ghost-mirage.png
sudden cosmos
#

My review of antigrav uppercut sounds so angry in text

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It was more bewilderment

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the amount of curses leveled towards auntie was both deserved and an accurate representation of how I feel though.

ashen crown
# muted blaze

You know one thing that occurred to me about the Sitrep feedback- I think RAW, the Valk sitreps don’t have round limits. If I’m remembering correctly.

I don’t necessarily agree with this I think round limits are healthy for sitreps even when they’re more action hungry. But that perhaps dictates why the design is the way it is and how combats with the Valk sitreps keep going down to the wire.

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I could also be completely wrong about this I haven’t cross referenced the documentation

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I checked the documentation I am confusing this with Finaljas' sitreps and am a fool

vagrant grotto
vagrant grotto
ashen crown
vagrant grotto
#

Regular Storte:

  • !V! changes please
    Okay good opening lol
placid glacier
#

quick question idk if I'm ruling this correctly but can characters freely enter and exit the superimpose firmament zone?

ashen crown
vagrant grotto
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Auntie augmented minigun

  • "Why is it smart?"
  • "Why is it seeking?"
  • "Why is it 12 Kinetic?"
  • "Why does it grant an additional action"

Answer: Because it is fueled by a COMPCON that hates you

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Its a sort of reverse UNCLE in that you can shoot with it but use a specific approved action afterwards

vagrant grotto
#

Okay that’s a lot of questions I need to answer in the morning

ashen crown
#

To clarify the Doomscroll typo: it says you make checks to clear the impair, but you take heat on failed saves, so there's a bit of inconsistency there

vagrant grotto
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That’s a typo

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It’s meant to be checks completely now

ashen crown
#

Ye Al said in the notes there was a typo but I wanted to clarify what specifically was the typo

vagrant grotto
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Yup and clarify is what I have done

ashen crown
#

Also to clarify my notes on the Firefly drone: If the Firefly drone was a limited 1/scene system, I think it's balanced perfectly as is. Its effects are debilitating, it takes significant fire redirection to remove, it's a strong control tool, unlike Flare Drone it allows the Napalm to not lose out on damage despite spending a quick action on its turn [edit: and get more immediate effects- you can point to the Invis + Hidden counter but the Bombard doesn't get to profit from its Flare Drone til its next turn. Meanwhile Napalm benefits from its Firefly immediately], but it's definitely worth it once. It was only ever deployed once, and if that was the last time it was deployed I would've thought it was perfect.

vagrant grotto
#

@muted blaze @sudden cosmos As for the Immobilize on Antigrav uppercut: Please refer to Iskander 3, Tesseract: Pinpoint Focus for where I was coming from

ashen crown
#

I referenced that and the response there was "but that's a player ability", and yeah I kinda agree there in terms of power budget. Still I understand why it's there right now

vagrant grotto
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I mean I could always hand it Sap instead if that’s preferred /sarcasm

ashen crown
#

You know fair point on Sap that did not occur to me

vagrant grotto
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Sap is BS tbf

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But there’s enough limited use QA NPC immobilize effects out there that I don’t feel out of line

ashen crown
#

I think the problem is with Sap allies can at least move adjacent and stabilize it away. Meanwhile with uppercut your buddy is 5 spaces in the air and probably slowed too

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I have a feeling the crux is less the immobilize and more the 5 spaces in the air + the immobilize

vagrant grotto
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Aight it’s late

ashen crown
#

Fair fair, hope this was useful!

vagrant grotto
#

One thing though about firefly drone:

“Line doesn’t vanish when drone is killed”
It disappears at the start of the Napalm’s turn, so that’s kinda moot

ashen crown
#

So here's why that's important

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  1. Napalm starts turn with firefly deployed. Napalm moves Firefly to make fire line
  2. Napalm redeploys firefly drone to make new line, destroying the last drone but not it's line
  3. There are now 2 fire lines on the field
vagrant grotto
#

Aight that’s helpful

ashen crown
# vagrant grotto But there’s enough limited use QA NPC immobilize effects out there that I don’t ...

We were actually running down the list- there’s Grappling (comes with downsides and restrictions) and Drone Barrage (comes with a choice), so they all come with “Immobilize*” rather than “Immobilize+”

However I also just remembered Electromagnetic Bola exists and- yeah that’s straight up just QA Immobilize + Fall + Forced Pull. There’s also Seeder Mines but they’re Seeder Mines they come with a caveat.

But yeah, when it comes to Immobilize or Stun Effects, typically (but not always) they either come with a prereq, caveat, or cost a full action.

vagrant grotto
#

Berserker Harpoon also exists, on an Overwatch

ashen crown
#

In that respect Uppercut is probably fine and we just got hit hard by it

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I’m personally still of the opinion that the ability to force move someone straight up is fairly significant but that doesn’t necessarily need to be factored in

ashen crown
vagrant grotto
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I mean that Berserker can immobilize on a weapon attack, with a follow up save, off-turn

ashen crown
#

Ah fair- so does Sentinel’s Impaler

vagrant grotto
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So like

Pro: Off turn immobilize on weapon attack

Con: Needs a second d20 to confirm

ashen crown
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But I left Overwatch out since that follows under the prereq thing I mentioned

vagrant grotto
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Overwatch isnt a prereq, its a bonus

ashen crown
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Actually fair

vagrant grotto
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You can shoot the harpoon gun on your turn

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In addition, you can shoot it off turn

ashen crown
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Maybe Uppercut just needs some more playtesting- perhaps in a Sitrep with zones

vagrant grotto
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Probably

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Though tbf depending on zone interpretation it might kick you out of the zone too

ashen crown
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Sending someone “up” as opposed to “sideways” removes a lot of the positioning nuances NPCs would normally need to concern themselves with with Knockback, at least that’s my takeaway from it

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And Tesseract is quite literally both one of a kind and also 3 LLs deep into Iskander

vagrant grotto
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Yeah, that’s why it’s on Prototype

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It’s 1/scene per target and recharge 5+

ashen crown
#

I did make a point about how “prototype traits are rarer and therefore deserve to be somewhat stronger,” so that is a fair point.

vagrant grotto
#

In any case, noted

placid glacier
#

I do actually have some feedback, not playerside reactions yet as my players are tired, but I will follow up in the morning

placid glacier
#

Recon sitrep, party comprised of a Hacktuga, Calendula, Battlebus Lanny, and Nexus Pegasus, played with Maria Lopez's house rules.

What's relevant to testing was Torrents with the 'Provisional Prone without save on collision' change (Paired with Crashing Tsunami), and testing with Superimpose Firmament on a regular Ghost

(I also had some Prototype Anchors in play with Lightning Rod, but the way the encounter played out , bolt nexus was not used as much as I thought it would have so didn't really have a chance to shine)

Torrents:
On DM side, considering I haven't used this since before the Crashing Tsunami change that gave it loading, it felt pretty damn similar to then where Crashing Tsunami had consistant uptime (though to be fair, for two turns it did kinda just sit its ass on one of the false control points so it was able to get 1 turn of basically free reload off), but in the thick of things it was able to throw its weight around in a way that felt nice. Will ask my Tortuga player I repeatedly shoved into a wall with both the Torrent and Anchor how she felt about it

Ghost:
Was able to cancel out heavy gunner reaction fire from the tortuga by sending it to the ghost zone with Firmament which was fun, because the zone was in front of the true control zone, it then became a weird area for the players and myself to work around. Did have anti-synergy with Paradox State itself because while the Anchor it was attached to was in the Firmament zone, it basically did nothing with it already Intangible. Otherwise, a fun little delaying shake up for the sitrep.

vagrant grotto
#

@muted blaze @sudden cosmos apologies for getting defensive above, it was late and I should’ve slept on it first. Will review in detail on the morning. Your feedback is appreciated

muted blaze
#

It's fine, we also shoulda slept on it before posting it

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Like. A majority of the notes were written post session and was kinda just a word scramble. I should left the message unsent and sent it in the morning lmao

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Like the stuff we said probs did get too opinionated near the end

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So like if any stuff is overly critical tbh take it with a grain of salt. And auntie was checked last which was probably a bad idea considering it was probably the biggest pain point

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So to elaborate more on the "OMG IMMOB QA OP" is when looking through rebakes NPC because... Can't guarantee regulars are safe :P. I found immobilise effects to be much more situational and rare. My point does fall moot because hull cracker exists and that looks fine but there's potential that that's more balanced because it's a SHEAVY user, but a lot of things that immobilise have more nuance. My personal opinions on the anti grav uppercut are probably it just "does a lot, and immob is quite neat as well especially when PCs need to move an objective"

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And even then idk if that summary is good enough

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Sorry if the stuff did look overly critical tho :P

muted blaze
#

In retrospect I'm feeling bad yeah because some things could be inferred as overly critical. But despite the fact I'm just saying it none of the stuff I wrote was meant to be

umbral sluice
#

so we can see how that plays out

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i get the feeling uppercut will be quite nasty on a hatchet due to it removing it from engagement safely

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also decided to do Valk Recon for the sitrep so we'll how that plays out

muted blaze
#

IG It can also combo with other movement tools because now there's NO terrain blocking you. So if you're in a small box. You can be punched out of the box then knockbacked away from the box 🤔

umbral sluice
#

as for Auntie... im tempted to replace something with it just to get more playtesting data on the thing

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from the sounds of it people were not satisfied with it last night though im not sure was that 2am brain or what, i kind of want to see it for myself now

muted blaze
#

I put it on hornets who would fly 8 tiles towards you and flank. Shoot you then free action boost out of LOS

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They became mega operators

umbral sluice
#

how did you get them to 8 speed

muted blaze
#

Hornets are 8 speed t2

umbral sluice
#

oh what

muted blaze
#

6/8/10 I think

umbral sluice
#

huh i never realised they scale

muted blaze
#

So I think, disregard everything I said "personal" about the Anti grav uppercut in the massive text doc... I will try to rephrase my words now I'm less delerious

So I do somewhat stand by my immobilise on QA thing I just put too many words into that, it tends to be rare and have more caveats. Grappling can be a prime example all NPCs can do but it can be broken outside of methods of condition clear with involn movement on you or the target or simply being bigger. Other examples such as drone barrage are potent but also give you the option to not be immobilised, A prime counter example to my points are SAP (yeah I can't say anything about that) and hullcracker which is on a 2 speed demolisher with a sheavy weapon.

But also some things should stand out from the norm. Like, stuff like that can be fun and shouldn't be bludgeoned to death out of threat for being different before it has a chance to flourish...

The anti grav uppercut also does damage... But that's fine I think... It ALSO has involuntary movement which is situational as it can't move people away but it's also near guaranteed so can easily shove them out of cover and away from objectives. comparable to stuff like spinning kick OR yet again drone barrage.

So it gets Ok damage + Good movement + Great condition application

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Another thing about the anti-grav uppercut is it's versatility. It can go on ANY NPC, so a cataphract can move and boost across the map 16 tiles and uppercut someone. But a demolisher can also keep it in the back pocket so it can pull a funny combo to throw you into the air and wallop you with a hammer next turn

As for the 1/scene limitation. I understand it's coming from pinpoint focus, however that's a PC tool in an asymmetric game. A regular NPC shouldn't exist for about longer than 3 rounds before it dies. So the 1/scene limitation shouldn't matter if only one guy has it, uppercuts someone then dies shortly after. It only really matters the most on multi-structure NP{Cs (which my assassins were vets) or if multiple people have it in the same scene.

My final thoughts, It's really cool... It unfortunately felt a tad too strong which unfortunately led to me running at you with a torch and pitchfork... I desperately don't want that to be demoralising and I am deadly scared of being the loudest person in the room for something that isn't as great of a problem as it is. This goes out to the Auntie as well which I can also share similar things on the "sorry for being critical, potentially rude and delerious". I desperately don't want to be the loudest person which leads to something being nerfed to oblivion and made redundant/useless

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I love accidentally writing Essays

sudden cosmos
#

Tl;dr for my comments:

  • Antigrav uppercut could probably get reworded for brevity/clarity

  • I understand what the design intent for Auntie is as a parallel/inversion of Uncle. Maybe it was how it was used but it feels like a LOT of gun/action econ for the "cost" of an NPC taking it. Little counterplay on a high-mobility NPC and would be horrifying on a multi-activation NPC.

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My thoughts on auntie are getting less tl;dr

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I'd call it a "eye of sauron" type thing. There's circumstances where players/parties may not be able to do much about it except pray that the GM doesn't target you (but targets your teammate, which means they could eat half a structure or more of HP and that doesn't feel great either)

muted blaze
#

I think hornet is also the worst NPC for it to go on by far so that's probably diluting it a lot too lol

sudden cosmos
#

I think it'd be a lot more compelling if it dropped one of its not-reliable tags for ordinance (and maybe the ability to ignore engagement/attack adjacent hostiles?). Then, it's still a threat, but savvy players can think about how to play around its range.

umbral sluice
#

ordnance range 8 feels quite miserable i wont lie

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i agree with changing it but i dont think i agree with ordnance

sudden cosmos
#

With seeking (even Valk's seeking), that's a pretty large area you can deny with it

muted blaze
#

Agree with both points here... Also worth noting in the playtest the seeking never became relevant due to heat seeking... So it was powerful and it didn't use that tag

sudden cosmos
#

Thinking about it from a purely product-for-sale-brained standpoint too, end-users might take auntie and go "the seeking rule is listed as optional so I'll just use vanilla seeking"

muted blaze
#

Yeah deffo

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In which case

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💀

sudden cosmos
#

Yeah, my perpetual soft cover wouldn't have been a concern.

muted blaze
#

If a hornet moved behind a size 2 building range 8 away, barraged you then boosted away behind ANOTHER building without ever entering LOS

umbral sluice
sudden cosmos
#

"hello naughty player with the objective and vanilla e-defense, it's lose half a structure o'clock"

umbral sluice
#

im sure someone has mixed vultures with crb Short Cycle

tame wharf
sudden cosmos
#

So, in general, I agree with the concept of auntie, I just think it needs to be a bit less gun for for what it does, or needs a means for responsive players to make tactical decisions around it.

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Otherwise anything toting an auntie gets the "unauthorized thing" status effect

tame wharf
#

Also yeah

umbral sluice
#

the moment the players realise its an auntie anyway

tame wharf
#

I did assume it was a Sheavy considering you said Barrage and then didn't shoot me twice but

umbral sluice
#

it is yeah

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its a sheavy that lets you do some things as a free action afterwards

sudden cosmos
#

Yeah. It's uncle from the upside-down. Instead of a player getting a free but diminished QA, an NPC gets a free but limited set of QAs

umbral sluice
#

between a Hatchet, Mesmerist and Prism who do we think is the most apt to slap an Auntie onto

sudden cosmos
#

Conceptually, I like it! In execution, it currently seems a hair too easy to abuse.

tame wharf
#

I do like it but I spent the whole combat wishing I'd just Slowed all their asses

umbral sluice
#

those are the three prototypes in my next fight so im asking

tame wharf
umbral sluice
#

defender that tech attacks people to draw their attention onto them

sudden cosmos
#

My gut says prism

muted blaze
muted blaze
sudden cosmos
#

Since if I'm interpreting the prism correctly, it can fire auntie from its fragment

muted blaze
#

YEAH

umbral sluice
#

im also thinking prism bc the mesmerist is far too tied up tech attacking and the hatchet would really just rather throw the axe

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at t1 so its 6 damage quick vs 8 damage full + boost or whatever

sudden cosmos
#

Yeah. Mes and Hatchet are kinda nonbos with it.

#

Mes would rather be TAing. Hatchet would rather be yeeting weapons and doing sick flips.

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Prism meanwhile is a gigacombo with it

muted blaze
#

If a prism hides... can you reveal it from the projector? Like, if it hides and the projector is in LOS does it break hidden because you have LOS (unless the projector is in cover)

umbral sluice
#

I'm inclined to say yes but its worth seeing what Valk says

muted blaze
#

Also refracting armour does not differentiate friend, foe or even itself outside of the lock on effect. a Hive attacking an enemy ganking the prism will NOT be seeking crylaughing

sudden cosmos
#

By how it is phrased, I believe so. You'd need to have both the projector and the prism itself in means by which they could hide in order for them to hide

umbral sluice
#

going by his logic of the Prism essentially being a size 2 with a weird shape

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well not actually size 2 but you get what i mean i think

sudden cosmos
#

Thinking about the tactics of playing a hiding prism hurts my head a little

muted blaze
#

It's doubley as easy to reveal

sudden cosmos
#

Yeah. Doing it effectively seems hard.

muted blaze
#

I thinking about how good the free actions from aunti are on a prism

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IG it jjust makes it more slippery cos of the free boosts

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And with mobile projector it also grants that more movement

sudden cosmos
#

Could also use it as a way to escape a nearby threat with a ram while shooting someone from its projector

muted blaze
#

Would suffer engagement

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But like, oh well

#

Reliable IG

sudden cosmos
#

Yeah, but given the smart, a single difficulty could be a non-issue

#

Suddenly I'm thinking of overcharge-as-reroll specifically on NPCs and it kinda makes me want to take things that allow OCing on NPCs more

tame wharf
#

Also, on the OC rules:
I can see the reasoning behind wanting either or of them because there are definitely turns I would have wanted to OC in the test fight

tame wharf
muted blaze
#

It depends if "this system" is referring to that characters specific system or that system in general

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I think the latter makes more sense

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And if not I'm forming the Hornet uppercut pillar

tame wharf
#

Please don't

muted blaze
#

Get sent to height 15 idiot

tame wharf
#

I don't want to be chain Knocked Up

#

It was funny to get to use Crackshot that way though

umbral sluice
#

im guessing it would work the same was as Eject Power Cores

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where if two people have Horse 1 they can both EPC the same guy but one person cant EPC them twice

ashen crown
muted blaze
#

Ah fair

ashen crown
#

On the flip side, Electromagnetic Bola is a quick action with range and no downsides to immobilize apart from recharge 5

#

I ran through all the rebake abilities, it and Hullcracker are the two “free” QA immobilizes

muted blaze
ashen crown
#

Oh it is- okay nevermind I stand corrected

ashen crown
#

My thoughts on Auntie after sleeping on it:

so, I wanna open with my positives. As a superheavy weapon, the free actions it gets as part of its firing I think are really fun. It’s a good way of making it so that a superheavy fire is never a wasted turn because it has some sort of “reliable effect.”

However, when it comes to NPC superheavies, they don’t usually get that. Snipers have reload, Demolishers have Inaccurate and 2 range on a slow NPC, and Bombards just have Inaccurate and low damage unless they can catch enough people. A lot of them fall under save or suck, but for good reason- it’s the NPCs whole gimmick, they’re built around it, and they’re built to not be action efficient because the damage + effects are really good.

When it comes to template Superheavies, there’s also Assimilation Maw. But frankly that is scary strong so it’s extremely save or suck and has only 1 threat. NPCs aren’t built around it so that’s why it’s high risk high reward. And it scales at +2 per tier rather than Auntie’s +4 while starting at the same T1 damage despite all of that so like. Yeah that feels like a problem.

Auntie, even without the reliable, the seeking, and the smart, has the strong damage of a superheavy, while also not depriving the NPC completely of its action economy. It’s restricted heavily, yes, but that doesn’t by any means make it bad imo. It’s very good, and falls into the opposite camp of all NPC superheavies.

Now me personally, I think conceptually that’s fine. But it does end up meaning balance needs to be more careful with it as it needs to be reigned in. Imo, seeking on it makes it less interesting because the Hide element becomes more of a passive option rather than actively requiring, say, the NPC to try and acquire invisibility or soft cover. Conversely Ordnance feels like a bad call because it makes Grapple and Ram too niche. On top of that, the fact you can have a delay between “fire Auntie” and “take its free action” is weird.

steel apex
#

Being on a superheavy weapon user is part of the equation but you could always, idk, have a veteran demolisher overcharge to use hullcracker and then follow up with an attack if you were really determined

#

At the same time, you could also do that out of the CRB with Limitless and Sap

#

but by and large it's a combination of factors

vagrant grotto
vagrant grotto
#

okay I've caught up

#

@ashen crown I have no current plans to touch Kutuzov, I'm letting my Defender bias shine through here

muted blaze
#

Lmao

vagrant grotto
#

Noted on Intrusion package, I may make my own personal revision to Maria's take, it's definitely punching strong

#

@muted blaze what did you mean by it triggering off Open Door

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Balor Swarm/Hive being a nexus is Nexus problems so thanks for reminding me that I need to steal Maria's Centimane rules or bake my own

#

good to hear on Orator, Autonomous Coord, and the new GMS weapon mods

muted blaze
vagrant grotto
#

Extraction: Yes I need to write all my sitreps down in PPG instead of re-writing them every time someone asks, the madness must stop

muted blaze
#

Held image is explicitly the lock on tech action

vagrant grotto
tame wharf
umbral sluice
tame wharf
#

Literally hit every enemy and knocked them prone

muted blaze
#

Mass metal pipe

vagrant grotto
umbral sluice
#

metal pipe sound effect my beloved

tame wharf
#

I lost my shit the first time I heard that was the sound effect you have for falling prone

vagrant grotto
#

I'll consider the other stuff too, maybe saves, idk, it's not my houserule originally so I'm gonna treat it with care

#

anyway I'm moving on

#

feel free to open a "subthread" on any of these

ashen crown
vagrant grotto
#

Extraction using Size 1/2 not being able to carry Size 2:

  • On one hand, yeah I get it, that may be a GM trap
  • maybe don't do that if you're aware of it, maybe i'll codify that in Extraction/Escort
tame wharf
#

Imo it feels too simulationist to say 'no your too small you can't grab the Thing You Need To Win'

vagrant grotto
#

really depends on what's available to move shit around

#

I'll probably add something like "when moving objects that the PCs can drag around"

#

so that the Barb/SMN enjoyers can move a Size 4 object in some contexts, though those are exceptions not the rule

#

I have thoughts on it, and the point of the "simulation" aspect is to add gameable friction that fits the fiction

#

so, I'll worry about it later

#

Ultra Prototype Vulture

  • oof on prioritization, oof on Intrusion Package
  • I'm gonna scrap the extra heat cost on Aggressive Refabrication
  • Bleeding Edge not being Burn is, in fact, the point of Bleeding Edge as a weapon
  • Chain Surge: Noted on potential for AP damage, I was worried I was being "Valk the AP Pinger Enjoyer" again
tame wharf
#

Also, I gotta go back to work, but I want to know your reasoning behind the changes to Heat and Overcharging. They're really the only rules I looked at and was like 'hm :/'.

ashen crown
vagrant grotto
umbral sluice
ashen crown
vagrant grotto
# tame wharf Also, I gotta go back to work, but I want to know your reasoning behind the chan...
  1. The whole reason NPCs have huge heat caps in CRB is because Heat was treated as an alternative health bar to speedrun on multi-structure NPCs. That impulse still exists for a lot of folks
  2. Stormtalus reported using the rules I use currently for overheating and enjoying them and I figured "yeah no why not, let's try it" and then enjoying it
  3. I added Overheated and Recharge Heat to make normal NPCs play with heat more to compensate for their massive heatcaps, and add an element of control/forbiddance to reward overheating them besides making them Exposed
ashen crown
ashen crown
vagrant grotto
# tame wharf Also, I gotta go back to work, but I want to know your reasoning behind the chan...

For Overcharging:

  1. With CRB overcharging, I either ask players at the end of their turn "okay would you like to overcharge?" and get hems and haws, or I don't and they get mad at me for "skipping their turn".
  2. You can make big brained plays with it, sure, but it adds another level of combinatorics that folks try to optimize on the fly instead of doing something pre-planned. Folks are not nearly as good at on-the-fly combinatorics as they think they are. This happens in board games like Spirit Island where there's a bajillion option combinations and everyone is trying to optimize the fun out of the game
  3. ofttimes it's just used as a pseudo-rerolled attack anyway
  4. I don't care for OC Looping as an emergent mechanic
  5. Games like Salvage Union and Pathfinder 2e use limited Reroll mechanics to great effect. Salvage Union in particularly literally has "Push" which is "reroll the d20, at the cost of 2 heat" where heat is a pure resource meter instead of a health bar, too
vagrant grotto
vagrant grotto
#

like, I'm once again asking folks to not view Sitreps as a rigid scripted fight and instead as an approximate framework to frame the fictional scene

#

if you can't carry the thing, your objective is now to find something that can

#

but obviously, I have not written this down yet

#

so nobody is expecting this

#

so, let it rest for now and I'll see what I can write up

#

Prototype Knight

  • @muted blaze do you meaningfully miss Knockback on the sword or do you think it's still fine
  • Noted on folks feeling the sword does a lot
  • On "High skill ceiling": Did you mean "High skill floor" instead or do you feel the floor is approachable
  • ROKO: woops on it not working great on Knight. and yeah Gaze mark is a little wordy. mostly just meant to make it easier to track without just being outright lock on
#

Occultist

  • Hound missiles: Oh shit oh fuck
  • Lead Astray: Commandeer has language for recalling and stuff but I'm pressed for space on Occultist and will have to rethink durations accordingly
  • removing attack scaling sounds reasonable
#

IDK what to do about Hound missile other than shrug tbh

#

baking the movement into the drones themselves sounds normal but then I can't do shit with stolen drones

#

Actually for Lead Astray since Occultist can fuck with drones, I may just allow the user to recall the drone tbh

#

Quick Action for a Quick Action and all that

#

though it's a little anticlimactic

umbral sluice
vagrant grotto
#

Napalm

  • Noted on Firefly drone feelings of durability
  • If I change it from Recharge to Limited or vice versa again I will outright remove that tag and tell everyone to burn (from the drone, I mean)
umbral sluice
#

but that would mess with Lead Astray drones

vagrant grotto
umbral sluice
#

ohhhh right moloch

vagrant grotto
#

Antigrav Uppercut:

  • Everyone's concerns are noted
  • I want more playtesting anyway
#

Prototype Ghost

  • Yes it can maintain the grapple/interact as per Phase Shift
  • I'm waiting to hear more playtest feedback before touching its HP again
  • For the bolster buff: it should last only while target is Bolstered
#

Noted mismatch typo on Doomscroll

#

Prototype Hornet w/ AUNTIE

  • Feedback noted, I am considering options to rein it in
  • I will change the effect to only grant the bonus action after it Barrages, not "on same turn" timing shenanigans
#

Prototype General

  • Re: "Optionals should be limited": The Lancer CRB agrees with you, please follow its guidelines
  • Replacement features: Yeah I get it, dunno though. The features trait is mostly just encouraging folks to do what they can already do while signposting that's what's happening to the players
  • Novel Tech: It's staying baseline. I get the "spam" issue, to which I would agree with the feedback about getting scans out-of-combat, and also encourage not fielding 7 brand new unique Prototypes in a single fight
#

Arcing

  • I have a feeling that "Player liked it / GM didn't like it" would reverse as soon as a Witch Blinds an Artillery Enjoyer. No matter what, I cannot please everyone here
  • I get why folks might like Arcing as a Blind Counter. However, I do view Arcing and Seeking as interlopers in my Tactical Combat Game, and I am generally more willing to err on the side of nerfing Arcing/seeking further
  • That all said, I've had other thoughts about Arcing and requiring it to have a minimum distance to benefit from Allied line of sight
#

anyway @muted blaze questions/comments/concerns?

umbral sluice
#

elaborate on minimum distance in this case? as in your have to be >5 spaces from your target or your ally for example?

vagrant grotto
#

thinking about MAC Attack's Arcing rules where the target must be at least 12" away on the board and in Line of Sight of an ally within 6"

ashen crown
#

However for drones in general perhaps making Diviner Darts only move flock drones is an idea

#

Without templates the Occultist doesn’t have access to any other drones

vagrant grotto
#

Again, MOLOCH needs accounting for

umbral sluice
#

MOLOCH again

ashen crown
#

MOLOCH is a deployable I thought

#

Not a drone

umbral sluice
#

the crude and not nice solution is "make moloch be called a flock drone" but i dont like that

vagrant grotto
ashen crown
#

Nope nevermind I’m a fool

#

Welp. In that case I suppose nothing is to be done

vagrant grotto
#

I was not going to create a Deployable on the Drone NPC

ashen crown
#

You either hope GMs look at Wolfhound Missiles and think “maybe I shouldn’t put this on Occultist” or ask if MOLOCH should be able to be moved by Diviner Darts

#

It is size 3, maybe demanding a quick action to move from the Occultist is warranted

#

If not then yeah just leave it alone

vagrant grotto
ashen crown
#

Okay nevermind

umbral sluice
#

i think diviner's darts moving moloc- yeah that

ashen crown
#

Yeah then just leave it alone. Some template optionals are monstrous on some NPCs, that’s the case in core

vagrant grotto
#

MOLOCH is meant to be a roving mass of eldritch horror

ashen crown
#

Even in rebake look at sentinel and puppet crasher

vagrant grotto
#

like, I know Kai's rebake took aim at Bombard Cannon/cluster munitions

#

and I purposefully merged Adhesive Gel into Salamander on Napalm for the same reason

#

but this is one case where I think limiting it to the in-class items is too much

ashen crown
#

There is a potential “””plus””” in letting Moloch be a flock drone- it benefits from Jealous Flock

#

But I put that in heavy quotations for a reason

vagrant grotto
#

like, the only thing I'd consider at the moment is adding a limitation that DDarts can't be used on drones that can innately move

ashen crown
#

That’s weird but potentially able to come up with stuff like Orochi drones or Firefly Drones

vagrant grotto
#

firefly drone doesn't move on its own

ashen crown
#

Oh yeah

vagrant grotto
#

it would affect OROCHI, absolutely, but also (Wolf)hound Drones which is the real kicker

ashen crown
vagrant grotto
#

and like, DDarts isn't needed for drones that can already move

#

hang on

#

Intangible characters "don't count as adjacent to tangible characters"

ashen crown
#

Yes

vagrant grotto
#

strictly speaking RAW that doesn't include objects

ashen crown
#

Huh, you’re right

#

So they can’t grapple but can interact. That’s funky, but fair

vagrant grotto
#

they can grapple characters tbf, idk about maintaining the grapple

ashen crown
#

Wait hang on

image0.jpg
#

Shoot that was meant to be cropped

#

Meant to focus on that “ongoing interaction between two character or objects” bit

#

Oh but Phase Shift bypasses that tho

vagrant grotto
#

yeah

ashen crown
#

Okay so back at square one

vagrant grotto
#

like, all that said, I'm not opposed to blocking Ghost from interacting with adjacent objects if that's the GM's vibe

#

it's meant to be an indirect NPC sitting on a different layer on the battle

ashen crown
#

Grapples probably don’t work (I think that’s good because holy hell), but object interaction being on the table is a fair reading

#

I won’t be running it like that because if I did my players would stab me but it’s a fair reading

vagrant grotto
#

like if you forbid an object handle on the same grounds as a grapple based on Rules as Intended I think that's a fair reading

#

I'd even say that's intended, both from Tom's intent of Intangible and my intent of Ghost

#

anyway thanks all for the feedback, I have some good notes now

#

Legit I would love some more clarity on Knight feelings from folks in the playtest, specifically on the Knockback removal and "high skill ceiling" and if "floor" was meant instead

ashen crown
#

I think “floor” was intended instead, we all said the term “ceiling” and I realize in hindsight that that is not the term I meant to use

vagrant grotto
#

if Floor was intended then I'd like to know what folks perceived was the stumbling block to climb onto the floor

ashen crown
#

To me, seems like a similar boat that I’m in with the Anchor- it’d be so good if I was smarter

#

I didn’t really engage with the Knight apart from a singular Expulsion Zone so I didn’t really experience the Knockback end, but from what I heard it didn’t try raising it’s shield so it died earlier than it probably should have, and while it did redirect fire with duel it got greedy trying to attack with its sword.

That’s what I remember Al and Snistle saying but that’s my recount dunno how accurate it actually is to their current thoughts

vagrant grotto
#

If folks are suggesting it's too frail then I'll happily buff its HP

#

if it redirected fire then it did its job; I saw that it got Banished to heatcap which is also good controller play

ashen crown
#

It also never really got a chance to reach the objective to contest it but to be fair I pushed it in the opposite direction so we never got a chance to see it contest the objective

vagrant grotto
#

it also sounded like a Normal NPC instead of a Veteran or Elite

ashen crown
#

It was yeah

vagrant grotto
#

and it sounded like there was only 1 of them

ashen crown
#

There may have been a reinforcement in the wings or something

#

Actually thinking back it did get deployed but it was late enough to not matter

vagrant grotto
#

Untemplated Lancer NPCs are comparatively frail so like, if 1 guy played and didn't get a chance to do stuff I do think that's par for course

#

Even the defenders can get clowned on with enough focus fire

#

like, idk, I could be willing to bump the HP to a higher amount

ashen crown
#

From my PoV it did its job- I think the Knight not doing Knight things was more a “lack of data” explanation than a “poor performance” explanation.

vagrant grotto
#

Again though I'm trying to find the stumbling block here

#

because "high skill floor" (if that's what was meant) implies that either something in the gameplan is unclear, or it's simply ineffective at its job despite having the veneer of being useful

#

Like, @ashen crown what do you think a whiteroom Knight should do turn 1

ashen crown
#

I’m personally fixated on the “should’ve used it’s shield when it didn’t” bit

vagrant grotto
#

okay, understood

ashen crown
vagrant grotto
#

so you feel there may be opportunity for user error regarding when to use its defensive tool proactively

ashen crown
#

And it can do both of those things while a distance away in order to pull away threats to the team

#

What the Knight did instead was duel, then walk up to the Heca, and then miss with its sword

muted blaze
#

Sorry I was afk for a while, will catch up on questions asked

vagrant grotto
#

hey you're good

ashen crown
#

So only the difficulty mattered when it came to fire redirection, not Roko nor the fact it forces targets to only approach the Knight

ashen crown
#

Both these NPCs have a setup phase and a weird “approach but don’t” and “focus on me” strategy, and the way they execute those things all depends on actions rather than passives. A Goliath can use Crush Targeting and not have to worry about ordering things incorrectly because that’s their only base trait defender tool, but the Knight and Anchor have more things on their plate to worry about

muted blaze
# vagrant grotto ### Prototype Knight - <@252211017566781441> do you meaningfully miss Knockback ...
  • Knockback, No... I just didn't notice it was axed
  • Others opinions not mine so can't really comment
  • I think both... and TBH I don't really see it as a problem. I've got better at running knights the few times I've conceptualised the statblock. I think there is a common theme among PPG NPCs which unfortunately they require above average amount of revision and game knowledge which makes very cool and competent whilst not broken NPCs. I don't want them to be any easier because that can easily take away from them. With knight specifically you need to know which actions to pop and when. For example I made a sword attack towards a marked Heca when in hindsight a shield would have been better to goad attacks for longer. However I played them infinitely better than the firs time I played knights
ashen crown
#

A comparable NPC with a setup phase imo is the Sentinel. If it uses Eye of Midnight at the wrong time it’s fucked, so using a Sentinel (without optionals) hinges on timing its eye of midnight pop ons and offs correctly. If 3 people are near it, it’s not even a choice it’s just done. But what about the turn before that? The turn after? Which setup tools should it use when outside its ideal conditions?

The Knight and Anchor experience that but to a higher degree, as they have to keep maintaining those effects and the heat that comes with it rather than just treating them as toggles, while also having weapons to juggle that don’t just deal damage but contribute to their secondary roles (and are much harder to use than Sentinel because they aren’t as capable of Overwatching)

muted blaze
# vagrant grotto IDK what to do about Hound missile other than shrug tbh

You said it yourself, warranties voided. I added it as a joke and tried not to abuse it. BUT there are situations with other templates, cross classing, etc which grant access to drones where suddenly some levels of data dart can work with moving ALL types and how sometimes with napalms how their burn trait was put into the weapon, etc. Or how rebakes traits have been baked into their specific weapons etc. I'm not saying this is a problem, it's something that's been pointed out and it isn't necessarily a bad thing until proven otherwise (in a less extreme example of a hound missile... Than say a WOLFHOUND on an Ultra occultist) whether this is an interaction that is cool or unintended

muted blaze
ashen crown
muted blaze
muted blaze
ashen crown
muted blaze
ashen crown
#

Specifically I think you Al pointed out “the GM doesn’t have to take 2 Prototype optionals” and my response to that was “I don’t think the GM should even get a choice”

#

To me, Prototype optionals are defined as [edit: should add the word major] playstyle augments, stuff that fundamentally changes NPC behavior. That’s good, but becomes messy as soon as you have more than one of them.

muted blaze
#

I'm back

muted blaze
muted blaze
muted blaze
#

Like, you can get eager with a demo, pyro or bastion and move to worse positioning to threaten players when in truth the best action available at the time is to NOT attack and do "NOTHING" because it fucks with the players more than just dealing damage

vagrant grotto
#

I don't have a great answer for how to teach folks this beyond taking a stronger stance in the tactics

muted blaze
muted blaze
vagrant grotto
muted blaze
#

Like how a spacer shouldn't need spacer optionals

#

It's fine as is with an EVA. Especially for space combat

vagrant grotto
#

yeah, exactly the same concept for Prototype

#

if you made a Prototype with no optionals and just used Novel Tech I think that's fine tbh

#

unexpected, but fine

#

(it could just be an unfamiliar Assault pattern, for example)

#

(once you scan it you get a better idea of the pattern group it matches)

muted blaze
#

I think that plays into the peeps saying "Shouldn't spam prototypes" (I can't comment, I wasn't playing so I don't know how it felt) and the fact... There's unfortunately 23 cool optionals that if feels like if I don't take it I'm missing out

ashen crown
# muted blaze Like, you can get eager with a demo, pyro or bastion and move to worse positioni...

I disagree. The Goliath, Bastion, Demo, and Pyro have fairly simple action loops, even when factoring in stuff like grapple and ram. They all have 1 base trait that makes them defend (Demolisher excepted), and they all just wanna press that button as often as possible, with the only decision being “who/where do I use this?”

Sentinel is the only one that gets close because it’s defender tool, Eye of Midnight, comes with a significant action demand and downsides, meaning it has to be strategic in when is uses it in addition to where. Anchor and Knight have similar demands,

#

If a Goliath has Crush Targeting, it will use Crush Targeting. If a Bastion has Friendly Interdiction, it will use Friendly Interdiction. If a Demo has an enemy 4 spaces away, it’s gonna swing its hammer. And if a Pyro has a clear line, it will use firebreak.

Meanwhile, if a Sentinel has a spare action and a nearby enemy, it may still not use Eye of Midnight because it needs to think through the long term consequences of doing that- how the slow will affect its next turn, its reactions, and how removing the slow might set it back a full turn just so it can reposition.

#

The other defenders can afford to be impulsive in a way the Sentinel, Knight, and Anchor can’t be

muted blaze
#

I have seen bastions/pyros/demos try to push when in retrospect their job is better to defend. I've seen bastions/pyros/demos hold back and absolutely rip... Like, most effective I've seen a bastion was a guy who stood still next to a zealot in a Valk ran playtest just to NEVER MOVE and ALWAYS BE A COVER PROBLEM

ashen crown
#

Absolutely fair, they aren’t NPCs you can run recklessly or thoughtlessly. But they’re still effective when they are because their core gimmicks allow them to be.

#

They don’t have anything to lose from spamming their gimmick

muted blaze
ashen crown
#

Plus 2 of those gimmicks are free actions

vagrant grotto
# ashen crown I disagree. The Goliath, Bastion, Demo, and Pyro have fairly simple action loops...

I see where you're coming from but I also want to point out some observations here:

  • Demolisher's default turn is Move + Barrage, or Move + Boost + Cope (quick action)
  • Pyro's default turn is Move + Boost + Skirmish
  • Bastion's Default Turn is Friendly Interdiction + Move + Shoot (or cope)

There's a fair amount of "using the default actions" on CRB defenders. And I will say that I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing, leaning on the default actions. It keeps the kits simpler. But there's often homebrew schools of thought that disagree with me, that the NPC should have enough stuff in its base kit to give it something bespoke to do with both its quick actions

I tended to lean into this secondary, homebrew community school of thought, even if I don't think it holds true in all cases. But here we see that adding those options seems to, in fact, make the NPCs' turns more complicated instead of rote

#

like if I made Templar's Shield a Protocol would that solve the "Skill Floor" issue?

#

or like, made Compelled Duel a Protocol, of all things

ashen crown
#

I say these things not to make a claim that the PPG NPCs should be changed

#

I simply say them to back up the fact that the difference in skill floor is a real thing

vagrant grotto
#

here's the issue though: I want my NPCs to be approachable

ashen crown
#

And not just “GMs being striker brained”

vagrant grotto
#

I don't want GMs to bounce off them because of a "skill issue"

ashen crown
#

There’s a balance to strike for sure

muted blaze
ashen crown
#

Weird idea- could make the shield a reaction.

vagrant grotto
#

if like, that's the only way you'd know

muted blaze
#

It can easily be fixed without changing rules

ashen crown
muted blaze
#

I think, a comprehensive write up on design ideology and tactics potentially per NPC could help

vagrant grotto
#

like I cannot stress how bad an Ivory Tower designer is here

muted blaze
#

More than the one paragraph in a similar way that rebakes do...

ashen crown
#

My first time using the Ghost, I think I was using it phenomenally. When I used the Occultist for the first time, all the theory I had in my head went out the window and I still used it well. Anchor… well okay I still play it not great but I was still not thinking about any Valk advice. Etc

vagrant grotto
#

I'm willing to accept Anchor was weird tbf, its optionals and base kit have been in flux

south cypress
#

Anchor is weird in a good way imo

ashen crown
#

The only NPCs I’ve had rough times using in terms of “what do I do” have had big overhauls since then

tame wharf
# vagrant grotto For Overcharging: 1. With CRB overcharging, I either ask players at the end of t...

1: Thank you for fully laying out your thoughts on both of these in an easy to read manner, I genuinely appreciate it.
2: I'm torn on how I feel about the OCing changes. On one hand, it feels really bad to try to go for a Crit and instead just getting a miss and also getting heat dealt to yourself. On the other hand, it can produce hype moments and aura with getting a success out of a failure BUT
3: It feels swingy. That probably isn't how it maths out numbers wise but it feels swingy.
4: Something that was pointed out to me is that while this does make OC looping not a thing, my GM pointed out the potential of folks just going for Asura since that's now the only way that they can squeeze extra actions out of the stone that is their build, and it might incentivise an unwanted play style.

muted blaze
#

I am also uncertain how much of it is "I never know how to play the NPCs" is but it helps to be able to ask. Like... I asked how to play knight and you said "just play dnd paladin lol" and my dnd paladin brain is "DIVINE SMITE DIVINE SMITE DIVINE SMITE!". I didn't play it like divine smite I played it using its base actions and trying to be sensible and I did a good job.

Stuff like the prism I remember asking "who is this guy? What are they doing? Hey valk what actually is this guy? Oh ok cool that fixes a lot of my problems to how I understood it"

Unfortunately however, this fundamental question I am coming to realise I just don't think I personally can answer? I've been using PPG NPCs for long enough that I CANNOT express what it is like to use PPG NPcs for the first time

ashen crown
south cypress
#

Thinking of placing an Anchor alongside a Sanctuary Priest soon. Are there any Anchor optionals that need testing?

ashen crown
#

The Knight rings to me like it doesn’t wanna end its first turn with an enemy in threat because that means it approached the player and didn’t meaningfully draw them away from their team/the objective. It contests objectives and protects Allies by explicitly being somewhat far away from them, like a Spite

muted blaze
#

Anchor is also an NPC which I used the first time which IDK if I have asked Valk for to iron out tactics as much as solidly. I used it for the first time and went "yeah a goliath would have been better in this situation... BUT an anchor can pop off in these others"... IG maybe it takes me one test run to use an NPC to understand how to use it... In a similar way that you might with any other CRB NPC

ashen crown
#

To me, Knight is a back liner, and Anchor is a Vanguard. Anchor wants enemies to both be close and far away from it, and make them have to flip flop to mix them up. In that sense, it wants to engage and make you feel bad about both engaging and also being far away

vagrant grotto
# tame wharf 1: Thank you for fully laying out your thoughts on both of these in an easy to r...

Point 2: If you're Overcharging to crit fish instead of accepting a simple hit, I can't help you lol. That's the risk to take
Point 3: It's like Spotter, Exemplar, and Death's Head getting a reroll. It's definitely adding hit consistency
Point 4: Folks have always been going for ASURA. Players long to break the shackles of action economy, irrespective of system. The one thing ASURA has going for it is blocking duplicate actions. Personally, I've had my eye on paring back ASURA too

ashen crown
#

I had the most effectiveness with an Anchor when it was actively engaging the PCs and pushing them around with their Cannon and slowing them with Lodestone, rather than just redirecting fire

#

And the reason the Knight died so fast in Al’s playtest was because it tried to be a frontliner and got its ass beat

vagrant grotto
muted blaze
#

I think the Asura comparison is unfair because... Yeah you pick up Asura but like... that's 3 LL's, 4 system points and an AI

ashen crown
#

From my perspective at least- the anchor playtest was a while ago and I was not at all involved in the Knight’s shenanigans as a player

muted blaze
#

Whereas you can just overcharge

ashen crown
tame wharf
ashen crown
#

Also 1/scene

muted blaze
#

Yeah,knew the 1/scene but missed the SP

vagrant grotto
tame wharf
#

I do wanna say though, I really enjoyed the structure table changes.

muted blaze
#

Yeah I disagree with that lmao... I personally am under the impression the vanguard sits somewhere NEAR ALLIES that it doesn't want people near and desperately hopes people don't get near

vagrant grotto
tame wharf
#

I don't know if I have an opinion yet on the stress table being reworked

#

I'd need to play with it more

muted blaze
# muted blaze I think the Asura comparison is unfair because... Yeah you pick up Asura but lik...

But like... You reach LL3. Just cos overcharge is gone, I have only seen asura in a playtest ONCE? and that was me because I wanted to be a striker who could heatgun blast a fucker. Peeps aren't gonna line up at LL3 as Everest variants 3 levels into sherman onnly for asura... Peeps want cool tools, and if they want to be a HMG everest optimiser, sorry these rules probs aint for you on purpose

vagrant grotto
#

I'll say that my OC, Structure, and Stress rules are pretty much staying as they are

ashen crown
south cypress
vagrant grotto
#

I'm happy with them and do not anticipate changing them

tame wharf
#

I need to re-read the Stress rules mainly because I don't think I fully understood them

ashen crown
muted blaze
#

Some peeps in the biz call this stockholme syndrome

vagrant grotto
#

It's just an acquired taste

muted blaze
#

I've been converted against my will (by me)

vagrant grotto
#

If ASURA is legitimately a concern then aight, lemme know how this affects your tables in practice

ashen crown
# vagrant grotto wait what the Speed 3 Slow Attack Denier is a Vanguard?

See what makes Lodestone a threat was partially the attack redirection, but it didn’t have any true attack denial, just attack redirection. The real threat it had was its slow, which inherently denied approach and caught PCs in an uncomfortable catch 22. Furthermore by being in the frontline, it could more actively catch targets in its Magnetic Cannon, all the while Allies can dance around the Anchor to benefit from lodestone while also retaliating much more easily, making it a lot more than an Artillery Buddy.

vagrant grotto
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I have no doubt that rules changes bring about "new metas" but I also will push back against pure whiterooming

muted blaze
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Every time i ask about overcharge rules I fairly sure I always get the same pipeline:

  • This isn't good, I want to crash the action economy!
  • Ok, I used it and it's not as bad as I thought... Superheavies get a boost I guess
  • These aint too bad... Now I actually have to think about my actions and turns are much faster!
  • I'LL NEVER GO BACK!
vagrant grotto
ashen crown
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Fair, it did have a mirage

muted blaze
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Put an anchor into a ship

vagrant grotto
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but otherwise yes, I see your point, as Rearguard and Vanguard have very similar tools for very different purposes

ashen crown
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Cause like what else do you change?

vagrant grotto
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some folks have allowed "support moves" or "non-attack moves" to be legal actions for Overcharge under Overcharge rerolls. Finaljas for example

ashen crown
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How does that work?

vagrant grotto
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you can Overcharge to reroll, or you can use it to Boost or Lock on or Hide as a free action

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basically: Limit what Overcharge can do but still let it lightly break the action economy

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Personally, I'm a hardliner for my change and wouldn't do that

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but some folks have tried it and enjoyed it

ashen crown
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Eh, feels weirdly asymmetrical. And as someone who was making 0 rolls for 90% of the combat, overcharge mattered for me and was fun

vagrant grotto
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Yeah, it's less intuitive/more cases to remember

umbral sluice
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i get the feeling if i want my players to join the side of no action economy OC then i'd go about doing it that way

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its like, i dont hate base OC conceptually

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i just dislike how it gets to be used for skirmish and only skirmish near exclusively ime

ashen crown
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IMO the most you could probably do for overcharge is like. Use it to clear a condition maybe? To give a tool for clearing stun and not having a dead turn among other things? If the goal was “action quality vs action quantity”, but that doesn’t feel worth it to implement me thinks

vagrant grotto
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This may be a little uncharitable, but Overcharge on my read is "I really liked Action Points from D&D4e, but I don't like how I only get them every 2 encounters. I should get them on-demand, albeit with a rising cost"

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There's a lot of things in Lancer that I tend to read as a player's response to reading/playing D&D4e, instead of a GM's response to running D&D4e

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1/turn Reactions being another one of those things

ashen crown
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Listen as much as the !V! Overcharge has grown on me, as a GM I don’t have the heart to take it away from my players, especially as I start to sprinkle !V! Sitreps into things

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Maybe it started as “here’s my take on action points” but I do believe it has earnestly evolved a little beyond that

vagrant grotto
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I think as I've grown older, I've also soured on Action Points

umbral sluice
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can i get a quick tldr of what action points are?

vagrant grotto
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but yeah, tbf I don't have a regular Lancer table

umbral sluice
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i kind of dont want to go buy 4e

ashen crown
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Idk, as a GM nothing is sweeter than whispering “why don’t you overcharge” in a player’s ear, and CRB Overcharge is a lot more at will and impactful when it comes to whispering that, especially when only one of their Heat caps is at 10

vagrant grotto
umbral sluice
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CRB overcharge is a tool that exists to skirmish again, stress yourself and miss /j

vagrant grotto
umbral sluice
vagrant grotto
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it also was from a system that assumed 6-8 encounters per adventuring day

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contrast Lancer, which expects half that

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I could honestly see another OC change where it was simply 1/scene, you can take an extra action

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but right now it's mostly just used for Action Economy Breakers

ashen crown
vagrant grotto
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I don't understand if I don't have a regular table lol

ashen crown
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The type of table where these OC rules are more productive I mean

umbral sluice
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like if you're a "standard" 6 heatcap tier 1 build you cant really afford to OC more than 1/scene anyway

ashen crown
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However my table only has one PC with a heat cap of 10, everyone else is lower, and everyone is terrified of overcharging

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And skirmishing with overcharge is the last thing they wanna do half the time

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So ya know, different strokes for different folks

vagrant grotto
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in any case though, yes there's probably ways to fuck around with Overcharge rules in a different way

I'm not interested in exploring those, really, but will happily encourage other folks to explore and report back

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every house rule I make for Lancer is intended to make running the game smoother for myself, so I can even fathom running something long-term without groaning constantly

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I just have a lot of personal friction with base Lancer, hence my riffing on the rules

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more power to everyone who is satisfied with base Lancer, I'm happy for them

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So anyway. If folks like what I’m cooking, feel free to take some. If not, it’s optional, just leave it on the table

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@umbral sluice if you run AUNTIE, try it with Ordnance and/or innate 1 Difficulty

umbral sluice
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which would you prefer? i assume not both

vagrant grotto
umbral sluice
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mmm i'm feeling ordnance because that was the one i had more concerns with, though it being on the prism may ameliorate that? since it can fire through the projector aiui

vagrant grotto
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yeah it can

umbral sluice
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i'll let you know how it goes next weekend then, i'll do ordnance first and then circle back to trying inaccurate at another point

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i do feel inaccurate is a bit less impactful on auntie than other things due to smart, seeking, reliable, but that's just white room vibes tbh

vagrant grotto
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Inaccurate may be less impactful yes, but it's also, in a way, a compensator for Seeking like how it's compensating for Blast Arcing weapons

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blast arcing weapons basically ignore cover outright, so they're innately inaccurate a lot of the time

umbral sluice
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hmm i see the vision behind it now, thanks

vagrant grotto
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But yeah Ordnance might not be bad on top of it too, to compensate for fast NPCs with reach

muted blaze
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Yeah, aunti being a skirmisher assailant tool and having that cut feels nice

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Also realised with the free action grapple and ram + ordnance and peeps saying antisynergy

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You can have a unit blast someone, THEN move and ram... It's not immediate

vagrant grotto
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Yeah and like, I don’t know who you’re putting this on

muted blaze
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Ordnance makes it feel less skirmisher-ey like... Putting it on a hornet was GNARLY but now it feels if ordnance it could comfortably be a "I WILL SHOOT YOU WITH THIS" like a sniper and prep can be made. So an Aunti bastion sounds more sensible than a hornet and less absurd

ashen crown
vagrant grotto
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Cool, seems fine then

ashen crown
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I will say one secret benefit of Lodstone- Immunity to Pankrati 2

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Which is very entertaining

muted blaze
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Holy fuck

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Anchor is the best NPC ever!!!

ashen crown
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How are you supposed to end your movement adjacent to an enemy if the movement is stolen 2 spaces away from the enemy? Nice try liiiberallllll!!!! (using the term ironically)

umbral sluice
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Drag Down is also a pank counter if you think about it

ashen crown
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WEll it kills them so

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I suppose

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But you can clear even Drag Down and all other sources of conditions before triggering Pank 2 in various different ways- the only way to Clear Lodestone is in Death

umbral sluice
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true!

vagrant grotto
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Pankrati-ing into a slow zone just causes the charge to fizzle upon reaching the zone

ashen crown
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Well no

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The space isn't valid at all because the Pankrati can't end the movement adjacent to an enemy

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It's just not possible

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So you can't even use Pank 2 in the first place

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The movement doesn't end early, it's just not an option

placid glacier
muted blaze
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There are no official rulings on what happens if an action is interrupted VS if it runs into an ongoing effect that is or is not deterministic to cancel it

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There is no answer to what happens, can I move in a straight line into an accelerate, get shoved along the accelerate then continue the charge?

vagrant grotto
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It’s like getting nailed with Nailgun on Overwatch

ashen crown
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Oh huh, nevermidn then

vagrant grotto
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The exact scenario (Pankrati into Lodestone) occurred in an early playtest and I asked about it then

ashen crown
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Ya know that actually makes perfect sense

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The nailgun example I mean

ashen crown
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Deploying a Rebake Bastion w/ Near-Threat Denial System alongside a Knight, aka “What Two Orchis Battlebrothers Look Like”, aka “fuck this one dude in particular” duo

muted blaze
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Ooooh, I just thought of what happens if "Osiris a vulture" could be fun

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"yeah, can it break it's own system and repair my gun?"

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Can a vulture break magpie subroutines to repair something?

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Wait no magpie is a trait

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GAAAAH my brain still thinks GREEN is SYSTEM

umbral sluice
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i blame lancer NPCs that completely arbitrarily decide what a system and what a trait is more or less

muted blaze
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CRB has red as traits, green as systems, purple as reactions and tech actions and orange as... Uh I forgot

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Rebakes has red as passives, green as actions, purple as reactions and tech

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I think foundry also uses the CRB rules

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It's a hot take potentially I prefer CRB colouring and the reason before that is because I'm allergic to change. It probably SHOULD be how rebake does it how it, what I'm saying should NOT be taken as feedback

ashen crown
muted blaze
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!V! Too

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It's kinda sick tbh

steel apex
muted blaze
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Oh fair

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In which case I retract my "rebake did it" statement and replace it with "later official lancer releases" did it 😛

steel apex
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Yeah I spoke with Mina about it when Winter Scar was in layout. I thiiiiink that the transition point for things was around/after Dustgrave

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Basically the only real change in terms of what gets what color is, as you note, that the red and green headers got changed up so that Red now represents passive effects and Green represents anything (non-tech) that requires a Quick or Full Action, regardless of whether it's a system or trait

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Weapons, tech abilities, reactions, and protocols are all still the same

vagrant grotto
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Yeah I made that transition in PPG a while back for several items, and even recently transformed a couple Reds to Free Action Greens

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Mountebank’s Jaunt, for one

muted blaze
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So OWS and SOTW are the only 1st party that use them?

vagrant grotto
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SSMR too iirc

muted blaze
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Oh shit yeah that is post Dustgrave

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I think the reason why I haven't shifted and because why I'm waving my fists at a cloud is because for NPCs the CRB is the book I checked the most until the rebake came out

ashen crown
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Ya know it’s occurring to me that my ideas for a “KTB Faction Roster”, when I permit myself to use PPG, is like.. mostly Defenders

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Knight, Mesmerist, and Ghost alone are there, not even including the CRB defenders like Bastion and Sentinel

vagrant grotto
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Nice

ashen crown
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I think the PPG defenders (and defenders in general) are varied enough in their mechanics for it to not be imbalanced but it certainly enforces a certain type of vibe

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“Behold! The House of Glass Wall of Orchis’!!!”
“This is just an All Defender Sitrep my guy.”
“I don’t see how that means anything.”

vagrant grotto
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Polling interest in a playtest on <t:1768676400:F> or <t:1768762800:F>

LL6, thinking of testing a new flavor of Recon

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Regardless of which day, I am also thinking about hopping on PNet voice to hang out and step through some Union Civil War concepts, on the opposing day

tame wharf
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I can do Sunday

muted blaze
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Busy 18th, available 17th. I'll say waitlist for now I'll think on it and see if I have the energy

gaunt heron
umbral sluice
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the pain of having your own lancer being the same day as the cool playtest games

vagrant grotto
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That’s 2 names per day at this point lol, we’ll see how things shake out

opaque crescent
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Waitlist me for either day, if there's still space

vagrant grotto
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You got it

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3|3 Now

sudden cosmos
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I can do Saturday

vagrant grotto
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Looks like Saturday is the winner

tame wharf
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@vagrant grotto any bans on frames or systems or whatever

vagrant grotto
tame wharf
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oh wait saturday?

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oh no

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im dum

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nevermind im dum

vagrant grotto
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All good!

placid glacier
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nvm

vagrant grotto
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@muted blaze since you played a !V! Zheng, thoughts on replacing its “enhancer” core power with something like this?

Xiaoli’s Tenacity
Active (1 CP), Protocol
For the rest of the scene, at the start of each of your turns, you may clear up to one condition inflicted by a hostile source.
muted blaze
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It looks capital G good. It's better than Ok but not incredibly godly

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I think... It looks like it's just it can work on potentially any mech more moreso on a generalist

vagrant grotto
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I figured Juggernaut as a core power wouldn’t be too outta line, and appropriate on Xiaoli’s mech

muted blaze
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Yeah fair

vagrant grotto
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Melee strikers get dunked on by slowed and jammed and immobilized after all

muted blaze
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Mm

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So the core is going more for "cover the weakness" rather than "boost the strength"

vagrant grotto
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Yeah

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Which in turn boosts the strength by making it more consistent

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The floor at least

muted blaze
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I don't see it as a bad thing but the unfortunate thing to come from that is that it might not fit the frames vibes. I think it's a solid base and it'd be interesting if condition clear could be tied to stuff it wants to be doing anyway

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Fit being subjective from me ofc

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I say that but I also do see how it fits because... Tenacity enduring etc

vagrant grotto
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The issue is that if I tie the clear to melee weapon attacks, it’s gonna struggle to clear conditions because they’ll impede the attacks

muted blaze
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Yeah

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Tiger sheath ignores jammed 😛

vagrant grotto
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Exactly, the precedent is there

muted blaze
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But slowed and immobilised clear means nothing if no one's in range

vagrant grotto
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I’m gonna pitch it to reCaste in the playtest thread

muted blaze
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I have an idea potentially if you'd like to hear it out?

vagrant grotto
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Go on

muted blaze
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When you cause a rock to explode or be created, clear a condition. An adjacent character or effected character gets the condition until EONT. If that's too powerful add a save?

vagrant grotto
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I see the vision but that means that again the built in clear for condition is tied to the Zheng’s ability to make melee attacks

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It’ll play nice with TSS1 but that shouldn’t be mandatory to equip

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The Slag Cannon synergy is also a little odd

muted blaze
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Does your ability wording work on melee attack or melee weapon attack?

muted blaze
vagrant grotto
muted blaze
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It's melee attack, so you can create cover on ram, grapple or tiger sheathe if jammed. But it doesn't fix the issue on slowed or immob yeah

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Unless you punch a rock adjacent but then there goes your skirmish

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No it needs to be a hostile character

vagrant grotto
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Is just also odd with BB charges and Jackhammer rounds

muted blaze
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Yeah, my wording was meant to be explicitly "from destructive swings"

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The prospector condition clear

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Yeah try it as is, if you wanna give core auto to the Zheng if we have one then to test it that should be neat... Can seek more opinions and if it's good post sitrep

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Like, end of the day it should be neat

vagrant grotto
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Had Sheavy Mount CB idea

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It would invert the CB basically

muted blaze
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Remove Sheavy bracing?

vagrant grotto
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Yes

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But require the Heavy Mount all the same

muted blaze
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Hm, interesting

vagrant grotto
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It’s arguably a nonbo I guess

muted blaze
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I like it

vagrant grotto
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It benefits 3-mounters the most

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Otherwise you’d just take the extra Flex slot

muted blaze
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I'm trying to figure out what uses it has outside of being a 1 core bonus armament redundancy...

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Which is a pessimistic way to look at it

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Like, if you had a second loading weapon and then could pick up a spare non loading. Or just second loading or a spare assault rifle/charged blade to be the opposite of your build

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I think it deffo has uses. Yeah I like it

vagrant grotto
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I think if I did that, I’d actually merge Armament Redundancy into the CB outright

muted blaze
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Valid

vagrant grotto
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1/mission ignore weapon destruction

muted blaze
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  • gain if you have a Sheavy, it only takes the heavy mount?
vagrant grotto
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Yes

muted blaze
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Eh I was gonna say "eh but what if..." yeah fuck em, eat attrition nerds

vagrant grotto
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Like to be clear one of my biggest pet peeves from Dustgrave is that Armament Redundancy is now the de facto 1 sp system

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Even on frames that absolutely do not need it

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3 mounters with no superheavies packing Armament Redundancy over Personalizations of all things

muted blaze
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I'm always a personalisations goer

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My spare sp checklist is:

  • do I already have a system I don't care as much about: personalisations
  • do I have a weapon I don't care about: if not armament

Otherwise it depends how much SP spare I have

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I prefer persos much more

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But it depends how many weapon mounts and how important they are, end of day I'm not too striker pilled so I don't care about my weapons most of the time