#Prototype Pattern Groups

1 messages · Page 19 of 1

vagrant grotto
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so maybe you could shoot something in Range 10 only if you have direct line of sight (as per normal), but the Arcing tag means you could shoot something beyond Range 10 with no line of sight (if an ally is close enough to spot for you)

umbral sluice
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pf2e volley trait comes to mind also

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-2 feels a little too granular for lancer though

vagrant grotto
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+2 difficulty within a certain range

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or just +1 difficulty I suppose

umbral sluice
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i like the idea but i'd be a little concerned due to the frequency of the Innacurate tag on Arcing weapons

vagrant grotto
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yeah exactly, many Arcing weapons already have Accurate/Inaccurate

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so like, would need to fiddle with weapons on a case-by-case as a result, maybe. Which I'm not in the mood for tbh

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so i'd rather just gate the arcing behind a range

ashen crown
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I assume this would involve overhauling Ordnance since it kinda does this but to a degree that’s more inconvenient for game design than not due to also having the more significant and also appealing for melee weapon design drawback of “have to make it your first action to use it”

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And adjacent is too short a range prolly

vagrant grotto
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I mean I wouldn't have to overhaul ordnance but that's also a thought, moving the Ordnance range restriction to arcing instead

ashen crown
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Yeah that exactly

vagrant grotto
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there's several blindspots though, which is making me think Volley really should be a tag lol

  • AMR
  • Hurricane Cluster Projector
  • Rocket-Propelled Grenade
  • Railgun
  • Tachyon Lance

honestly there's only 2 ordnance PC weapons that also have the Arcing tag, and they're Howitzer and Siege Cannon

ashen crown
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To be fair the “can’t attack adjacent characters” restriction doesn’t feel meaningful for most of those weapons listed

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And the HCP is seeking anyway so same diff

vagrant grotto
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so no, not same diff lol

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but yeah honestly most Ordnance weapons feel like they should've had a longer range restriction if that was the goal... something more granular maybe

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idk, just thinking about this stuff. If I added a range restriction on Arcing I'd likely leave Ordnance alone anyway

ashen crown
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Fair

granite saddle
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Hammer-URPL stocks falling 😔
jk, they were already at rock bottom

muted blaze
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Not rock bottom

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Viceroy exists

granite saddle
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Too busy putting 5 morbillion Vijayas on it, sorry

warm cedar
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POV : You're making a gunslinger Viceroy

granite saddle
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Hey look, if that's what it takes to take down the Argus armor Ultra Rainmaker ¯_(ツ)_/¯

muted blaze
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No damage, no damage! No damage! DIE!!!

granite saddle
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Half the battle was me plinking shots off his armor to build up gunslinger yeah, which was the most damage anyone in the team could deal to it at first.

muted blaze
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@vagrant grotto

House rules:

HOROS_1

ReCaste ggave feedback previousl on it but reiterates points, Still has what eject power cores does and but is better than "just jam you", better and gives better counterplay. Might have been better on a mech with greater than 5 sensors

Arcing and seeking

John: Simulacrum good, bypassed the thing main thing of Arcing. Originally wanted seeking, changes makes sense but felt a bit bad. Because if
there's something that wants seeking it's the type of thing that wants to hide, but a long range weapon relies on your allies doing something about it. And by the time that something has lots of heat it's probably dead soon (Al's comments, playing with how rebake and PPG recharge heat rules, there's much more heat gain across the opfor. But does have a point). Being able to pressure something the moment it enters dangerzone is neat but can't too easily be built around. (Was originally thinking of using bolt nexus tokugawa) - John was playing Oracle Tokugawa and could never be targetted the whole fight.

Me: Simulacrum feels like a weird way to bypass arcing and I'm unnsure if I'm happy with using simulacrum for drawing LOS. Seems like it just ignores the house rules as long as you just slap a blast 3 Athena bubble as a QA then play with regular arcing, but I'm conflicted because it requires an AI system, a bunch of system points and 3LLs investment to do so.

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Atlas:

Cat: Jockeying allies is based and cool and good especially on the sitrep we played where defending a character. It feels weird in concept but does play out well. If Cat had known or realised the demolisher had knockback, Cat would have used flash anchor to hold on. The fact it can be a defensive tool is good design and a testament to Lancers mech design, showing how it was built for one thing but can be used for another role. Jaeger dodge, now it's shut down by no speed, not used much.

(Knockback and push do can turn it off and it is good to see counter play to the Atlas)

Also now it's a possible interaction if you become immune to involuntary movement such as via flash anchor... Are you immunne to the movement of the person you're rodeoing?

Kobold:

  • Does revamp kobold Terraform's ability to engulf an enemy lead to them gaining hard cover in all directions? (Valk response: yes)

Snistle: Changes to terraform are very cool for giving it another use, but it can be VERY STRONG. It has the potential to throw out LOTS of immobilise on agility save. It is FA and a core power however. However we only realised afterwards that it could be cleared by a QA on a check. It has a lot of utility by blocking a lot of the map (especially on a defensive map) AND the utility of immobilising. (Me: Without captain Morgan it can be very painful on higher size targets and the counterplay that can be enacted from the NPC comp is bizarre because enemies either demolish all terrain and will remove all the cover (Breacher, Bombard, Demolisher) or struggle and cann't do much at all.

Shifting around the system licences for Kobold felt good.

Party had anti-synergy with hardlight and long range invades. Misplay on team comp. (I disagree, they made an area that can't be shot into and can hardly be entered. It was tricky as fuck)

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Tokugawa

John: Never needed bonus damage on range. It is NOT unplayable and anyone who does think it's unplayable is probably sad about OClooping.

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PPG NPCs

Knight

Was a fun kit to play througgh but unfortunately was misplayed. I think to play the knight well it requires familiarity and revision as Compelled duel has a lot to remember. As the systems saves were frequently forgotten and the Player under the effect of the duel forgot they were undner it so simply moved away voluntarily which WOULD have affected the sitrep A LOT considering this player made a lot of vanguard off turn attacks. I also forgot it applies lock on on hit.

The most effective part of the kit I found was mighty throw which felt good, potent but justified on a recharge 5+. Making a good tool for getting allies forwards and relocating and isolating PCs away from the party. One thing I fucked up about again mighty throw was that I assumed it was flying not pushinng purely from the flavour text. After the game I realised I made 2 impossible moves throwing characters over terrain and not into it. I blame the slopfest tbh

Cat and Snistle: Think the throw was very cool, throwing a demolisher was very funny but doesn't make much sense. But Recaste thinks it needs a size limitation, a knight can throw a throw a ship and other players agreed. (Me: As much as the realism of being able to throw a demolisher felt off I don't see any reason why it shouldn't be able to throw equal size targets to be honest, it's a size 2 character with invol movement tools, just like everything else it makes sense to limit it to its own size or lower. So I personnally disagree that it should not be able to throw a demolisher. I do however think throwingg larger targets is weird)

John: It's whole gimmick means it's somewhat less effective against targets it's not duelling. (Seems intended)

Was inneffective, due to misplays, map size and messing up rules. Also due to size and at long ranges, somewhat lacked things to do when out of sensors 10. May just be a skill issue tbh

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Hatchet

-Hatchet: Cleaving Retrieval, can it be retrieved without line of sight OR through a blink shield, hardlight and such?

Players believed return to sender is cool but never triggered.

Introduced late into sitrep, didn't have too much presence. :( I wanted to use it more.

AOE line prone is quite neat but didn't really happen.

Lots of neat things in concept, but due to unfamiliarity with the NPC class it was misplayed. Inconclusive data :(

Brisk:

GAME BREAKING WORDING!?!?!?!?!!!!111!!1!!
The you're too slow trait (And tempered) states "This template" whereas every other NPC template states "The Template"

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So in terms of the PPG NPCs, unfortunately more GM homework and familiarity is required with the NPCs and the sitrep was very fucked that the data was inconclusive

vagrant grotto
# muted blaze <@151414024003649537> ## House rules: ### HOROS_1 ReCaste ggave feedback previo...

Thank you for all the feedback, this is all great haha

  • horos1: excellent
  • Arcing + Seeking: Good point on Athena, glad it was tested, I may be okay with the investment because it’s Arcing instead of Seeking? Basically means it was Arcing As Normal and I have less beef with Arcing than Seeking. Seeking will benefit from more team synergy I think (or building some hacks on the artillery)
  • Atlas: fuck yeah glad to hear this. I don’t know about Flash Anchor, I’d have to read it, but I think that’s a question for #rules-questions . I wanna say it doesn’t affect Jockey and Grapple movement since it’s none of those explicit things listed in Flash
  • Kobold: Noted on Core. Glad it’s impactful, the real question is “is this now Gorgon level” because if so it’ll need reined in
  • Tokugawa: May be a testament to Oracle LMGs but glad to hear it was spitting fire even with the targeted nerfs
muted blaze
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Probs not Gorgon level

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On the point of Arcing + Athena. Arcing + athena is basically seeking

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Due to the ignore cover

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Alas, SP and LL investmennt

vagrant grotto
# muted blaze ## PPG NPCs ### Knight Was a fun kit to play througgh but unfortunately was misp...
  • Knight: Noted. Maybe I can word it so that the effect is always present unless the player passes the save at start of turn (so the assumption is it’s always on). You’re originally correct about Mighty Throw though, it says it ignores terrain and obstructions so it’s basically “flying” without being flying. I’m not fussed enough about size to limit it; if something can’t be force moved by smaller folks, it’ll say so. Sensors 10 is plenty I think though?
  • Hatchet: I can word it so it needs LOS on its weapons to retrieve
  • Brisk/Tempered: Noted, will check wording
vagrant grotto
muted blaze
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Sensors 10 is finen

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The lack of things to do at range 10 is somewhat a deploymentn annd skill issue

vagrant grotto
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Still, no different from Core I guess

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It happens sometimes

muted blaze
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Like, Unfortunately It happened twice where it ended its move and boost at range 11 from the person I wantned to get

vagrant grotto
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Wondering if I should add a thing allowing duel reuse in case of emergency but overall happy with the counterplay

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It’s hard because there’s a lotta words already

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But maybe I can edit more

muted blaze
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Like... The duel reuse thing... It makes sennse. An NPC fucking up is not as harsh as a PC fucking up

vagrant grotto
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Highly amused by Knights + Demos

muted blaze
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Surprisingly decent combo

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I'm sad I didn't get to duel the tokugawa

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That would have channged things A LOT

umbral sluice
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I would also like to ask, is Jockey intended to be able to be used while Immobilised? I believe it should but since you are moving a little I wonder is there an argument that its blocked

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not usually a big things but it was pretty relevant for Hardlight Atlas

muted blaze
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Crack shot too

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Because Mule harness also throws people off if dropped prone or immoblised

umbral sluice
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specifically can you start jockeying while immobilised is the question, really

umbral sluice
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that's why the defender atlas jockeying came to mind, because its not like mule

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I do also think using Mighty Throw to pull me off was a good idea and I'm quite happy that it's an option to get an atlas off someone

muted blaze
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Throwing a rock at you too

umbral sluice
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the demo:

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I am also curious about the Hatchet and Pull the Snare, the idea behind it is that it's supposed to choose either Pull the Snare or Cleaving Retrieval, and it being nearly impossible to hit both on the same target? It reads to me as that but I just want to make sure that's the intent @vagrant grotto

muted blaze
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Cleaving retrieval to me now I have used it is "Pop this whilst anywhere to just get your weapon back. OR pop this whilst adjacent to your weapon you choose this insntead of the free actionn pick up to throw off some damage annd control effects"

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And pull the snare grants extra utility if using the "pop this whilst anywhere" option

vagrant grotto
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Al’s got it

vagrant grotto
umbral sluice
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i'll shoot it over there and see what happens

vagrant grotto
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Same with the other jockey questions, though I’m sure they don’t come up often

umbral sluice
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"it cannot be overstated how foolhardy and dangerous this is"

muted blaze
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I think unfortunately, the jockey rules are somewhat of an afterthought

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So giving access to the atlas is super cool in concept but breaks a decent amount under uncertainty and rules because Jockey was not intended to be used frequenntly

umbral sluice
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okay so my move was legal

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good to know!

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crackshot Atlas is next

granite saddle
muted blaze
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Don't

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"I throw you 3 spaces into the air, it becomes legal I think because of flight"

granite saddle
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that's such an easy fix

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and it gains a whole lot in clarity imo. Enough to be worth it at least.

vagrant grotto
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I already said it ignores terrain and obstructions, it’s there

granite saddle
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yeah, but it's clearly confusing : if you're not sure you even ran it correctly when you did in fact have it correct, that's something no ?

vagrant grotto
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One misread does not necessitate a change

granite saddle
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sure, fine.

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Won't stop me from making it flight in my games but that's neither here nor there so who cares

steel apex
muted blaze
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wait a minute... Let me look at the rules for Jockey rq

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Ok good Jockeying only works on an adjacent mech

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Does somewhat invalidate what happened in my playtest but I don't care

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You cannot jockey a wolfhound

umbral sluice
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did i mess something up with the jockey?

sand mulch
muted blaze
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I said you could so you didn't do anything wrong

umbral sluice
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ohhhh i see

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ah well

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it was cool as hell so

muted blaze
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Yeha

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You could have also totally encapsulated the area in the bubble anyway so TBH I doubt much changnged

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SLOP

umbral sluice
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slop

opaque crescent
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slop ✨

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I miss it already

muted blaze
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I don't

umbral sluice
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next week, trust

sand mulch
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oh yeah i wanted to make it to that too

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slopmaxing

vagrant grotto
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Also @muted blaze regarding Execrate’s Intangible on character-like objectives: May call for a patch on Execrate that requires the target move closer to the nearest Void Husk

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Also also: Proud of you for cracking the seal on character-like objectives

muted blaze
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hehe

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Well... TBH, Ralf did it first. The demolition objectives in L:EC were characters

vagrant grotto
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Honestly to a degree I think that players burning tools to protect a character-like objective is Working As Intended

vagrant grotto
muted blaze
vagrant grotto
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Like if they’re doing their damnedest to redirect attacks/effects/shed conditions like Immobilized

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You should totally lock/hold one of those objectives by the way

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That shit’s exciting

muted blaze
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I still don't think I follow

vagrant grotto
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Maybe I don’t either lol

muted blaze
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Is this about the point I made when talking about changes I'd make to Pigsriot?

vagrant grotto
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I think so yeah

muted blaze
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So the main concern I had was after it was focused down with burn

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So it goes regular popcornn initiative, PC, NPC, PC, NPC... NPC, Hostile offensive NPC, Hostile Offensvie NPC. So those last 2 are the only ones that may harm the point. One of them was a scourer in 2 consecutive rounds and got focus down off. The scourer finished it's turn and then the objectives turn happened IMMEDIATELY after it... All the objectives turn is just rolling a burn check at +2.

  • If it succeeded: The players don't do any counter play because the burn was cleared
  • If it failed: The objective just took double burn with no method to prevent it (Outside of stopping the NPC harming it in the first place)
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It honestly could just be fixed by making it's "EOT" effects resolve when the last PC does and not EOR

vagrant grotto
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That’s a good shout

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Or giving it its own turn, as a way for players to have to play around putting the objective first at times

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It also lets it move on its own 😌

muted blaze
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The objective is immovable

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and immune to any and all movement

vagrant grotto
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Right I’m saying in cases where you want like, a vehicle to drive itself

muted blaze
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Fair

vagrant grotto
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Not your specific case

muted blaze
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Could be an optional IG

vagrant grotto
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I will admit, though, that I think a lot of “escort objective is a character” shenanigans could be alleviated with a few spot patches here and there

in particular I wanna try saying that the escort sitrep is only over once all PCs extract

umbral sluice
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oh i've done this one, and i have a gm who thought that was the default for the longest time

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big fan personally

vagrant grotto
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I wouldn’t do it on like, a massive map with a 2 speed Barbarossa, which is to say that I’d be making changes to make that not occur (smaller maps and faster Barbs)

umbral sluice
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...i did do that on a massive map with a 2 speed barb lmao

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i felt bad because i made it before knowing they were going barb

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thats the only time i felt bad about it though

vagrant grotto
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It’s deffo the absolute worst case

umbral sluice
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having everyone get to the end is i think interesting because it incentivises control and movement tools even more than normal escort

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and this is absolutely my bias showing but i kind of love that

vagrant grotto
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It could, however, make damage inadvertently more important by killing everything and thus ensuring a safe hike

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And like, I’m okay with that being One Potential Strategy

umbral sluice
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yeah i think that's fine, different strokes and all

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though i do tend to run a bunch of reinforcements, sometimes even endless, just to avoid that being the one real strategy

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the one thing that comes to mind is sunzi, however

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just one blinkspace tunneler and now it plays like normal escort except that guy has to be in the extraction zone by the end of it, so everyone can get there

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then again, that's just a sunzi moment

vagrant grotto
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Yeah no that’s another case in the other extreme, that and Prospector probably

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My Sunzi nerfs would be dropping an elbow from the top rope on those shenanigans

umbral sluice
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are there any potential prospector changes in the works or do you think it's okay as a talent?

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for the house rules ofc

vagrant grotto
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I frankly have a dim view on a lot of the non-exotic dustgrave stuff

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I haven’t taken pen to paper yet on them because I’m not really feeling motivated to do so lol

umbral sluice
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yeah no, i get that

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personally i've just axed dustgrave from my own games instead of trying to make changes because i dont trust myself to lmao

vagrant grotto
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Prospector is something I’d increase action costs for, for sure, and let it be used both ways

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Like I think most of Dustgrave is Fine™, but I always feel like “ah. We’re doing this today” every time I see a Störtebeker

umbral sluice
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i sigh whenever i see superheavy mounting but it's not a thing i can conceive of changing myself so i just find it easier not to bother tbh

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no shade to anyone who enjoys it

vagrant grotto
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SHeavy mounting is Fine, again, I just don’t think it’s worthwhile in the objective-focused games I run

muted blaze
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Sheavy mounting I sigh but like... Nothing that it can be equipped on really needs a superheavy weapon

vagrant grotto
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Yeah mostly

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Dustgrave has a lot of “cute” things

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But anyway

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Enough of that

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One day I might revise some dustgrave stuff, but for now imma let it be

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I’m thinking that once I get something like a playtest off the ground for a lancer campaign structure, I’ll probably limit to just the CRB, Chomolungma, Long Rim, and Wallflower to start, and then bring things in on a provisional basis

muted blaze
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Chomo but not the rest of the SR catalogue?

vagrant grotto
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Mostly because I have minor thoughts on SysOp and Demolitionist that I’d wanna hash out before rubber stamping

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I largely think they’re fine, I’d just be looking for ways to streamline them/make them easier to track? But I’m also open to leaving them alone if I can’t think of anything worthwhile

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It’s very much a “I haven’t thought about these yet and I don’t really want to unless I have to” for all those things

ashen crown
vagrant grotto
placid glacier
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I keep trying to sell my party on a vanguard 1 rework and it's not working- 😔

vagrant grotto
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Players hate to lose their toys, and Lancer provides a lot of them

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But that’s how it goes sometimes; maybe one day they’ll be willing to try a oneshot with alternative Vanguard 1

dapper goblet
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My issues with dustgrave alts are mostly because i think theyre kind of not... I dunno, theyre just weird. They dont feel of a peice with lancers design and they feel very branded as a particular authors vibe and hes saying something with it i dont like. Thats vauge lol

vagrant grotto
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Alright, I know it’s 6 hours later but wanted to make it clear it’s time to move on and talk about PPG stuff again lol

granite saddle
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On it !
Any news on that Prototype trmplate thing you floated around ?

vagrant grotto
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It’s still a big ol WIP

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Won’t be ready until at least December, if not later

granite saddle
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Just in time for the holidays, I see.

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No nothing to show off/get eyes on ?

vagrant grotto
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Or after

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Only what I previously posted

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The big high concept thing is “difficulty on attacks against them until someone scans them or an identical mech”

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So if someone wants to try that then be my guest

granite saddle
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Aight, too bad. But do take the time you need with it, it's got some real good ideas and I can't wait to see how it ends up !

vagrant grotto
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Besides that, yall have my express permission, nay, compulsion to cross class when using Prototype

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Thank you, we’ll see how it ends up haha

granite saddle
vagrant grotto
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I did yeah

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That’s why I’m highlighting it lol

granite saddle
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Oo fun

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Really taking advantage of those voided warranties, huh ?

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It's good this is good.

opaque crescent
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Is this still up to date?

vagrant grotto
# opaque crescent Is this still up to date?

More or less, but here:

PPG optionals to test
Anchor

  • [x] Newtonian Amplifier
  • [x] Magnetic Reversal
  • [x] Null-Grav Motivator (one big zone)
  • [x] Slingshot (vet)
  • [x] Tectonic wave (ultra)
    Capacitor
  • [x] Purifying Lightning
  • [x] High voltage (vet)
  • [ ] Thunderfall (ultra)
    Ghost
  • [ ] Superimpose Firmament
  • [ ] String Theory Marionette
  • [ ] Maxwell’s Demon (vet)
  • [ ] Coherent Entanglement (ultra)
    Hatchet
  • [ ] Rocket Bola
  • [ ] Reckless Dive (updated)
  • [ ] Return to Sender (updated)
  • [x] Pull the Snare (veteran)
  • [ ] Hurricane of steel (ultra)
    Kensei
  • [ ] Gaussian Blur
  • [x] Pommel launcher (vet)
  • [ ] Mortal draw (ultra)
    Knight
  • [ ] Hero’s Banner
  • [ ] Punishing Blow
  • [x] Mighty Throw
    Mesmerist
  • [ ] Mountebank’s Jaunt
  • [x] Hall of Mirrors (veteran)
    Napalm
  • [x] Incendiary grenade
    Occultist
  • [x] Jealous Flock
  • [x] Harvest pyres
  • [ ] Doubling season (vet)
    Prism
  • [ ] Omniglass barriers
  • [ ] Scintillating gleam
    Torrent
  • [ ] Wash away
  • [ ] Crashing tsunami
  • [ ] Primordial (vet)
  • [ ] Split the sea (ultra)
    Vulture
  • [x] Jumpstart
  • [ ] Carcass bunker
  • [ ] Rapid refabrication (ultra)
    Zealot
  • [ ] Flagellant’s Cleansing
  • [x] Rally the Righteous (reworked)
opaque crescent
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ty ty ✨

vagrant grotto
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@muted blaze did you use rocket bola

opaque crescent
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they did but iirc it missed both times it was used

muted blaze
vagrant grotto
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Balanced

muted blaze
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That was replying to ReCaste

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I'd say data for the hatchet would be inconclusive for any of the traits I used tbh

granite saddle
vagrant grotto
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If there’s an X It’s done

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It’s like a checkbox

granite saddle
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Yeah ok I had it right then
Was just midly confused as to why some would be marked when some are just. gone.
Those were probably just the "never there in the first place" ones, I imagine.

opaque crescent
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qu from while I've been pondering opfor, ||is Ghost's paradox state meant to be listed as a tech attack? As far as I can tell it doesn't target a character it just sets up the legally-not-a-reaction||

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(unsure if i'm going with this for sunday, but spoilered just in case)

vagrant grotto
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||and make sure your modules and system are up to date, first ||

opaque crescent
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||and like I have no idea why it's putting itself in the tech attacks, looking at the item structure for it it's not marked as an attack but it sorts itself into the attacks||

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weird

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it's probably just me being stupid and sleep deprived

vagrant grotto
opaque crescent
vagrant grotto
opaque crescent
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||I'm guessing all quick techs are sorted into the same tech attack tab with no distinction there||

vagrant grotto
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||but I know at one point in the past it treated all tech actions as attacks. Hence why I suggested updating the mod||

opaque crescent
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||yeah, up to date as well, the thing functions fine it's just in a tab that i'm being pedantic about||

ashen crown
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Halloween Themed OpFor:

  • Ghost
  • Specter
  • Witch
  • Hatchet
muted blaze
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So this is how it feels

ashen crown
opaque crescent
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The temptation to unspoiler the text (it pertains to a playtest they're in later this week)

ashen crown
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Weird interaction:

If a character is under the effect of Quantum Bond, can they draw LoS through tangible objects+terrain as well as ignore cover?

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big for snipers if true

vagrant grotto
steel apex
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My understanding of intangible is that it doesn't mean you "see through walls"

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so a tangible LoS blocker would still block LoS

vagrant grotto
#

That’s what I’m operating off of, too

ashen crown
ashen crown
vagrant grotto
#

Looks like there was only 1 response at least

muted blaze
#

Intangible says you can nmove through objects and terrain but not end turns in. Which to me implies they still exist

vagrant grotto
#

If it’s up to GM then aight, it happens

#

Sniper can enjoy forcing folks to be Prone

ashen crown
#

You can’t end your turn overlapping with anything, even when intangible

vagrant grotto
#

In any case, it’s moot for Ghost

granite saddle
muted blaze
#

When a kensei attacks with disarming retaliation, does it, attack with the charged profile or regular profile? And if it attacks with the charged profile does it shred on hit?

muted blaze
granite saddle
#

So normal profile

muted blaze
#

Ah sick

#

Mb

granite saddle
#

Np

vagrant grotto
#

Oh huh, technically you could use pommel launch profile with disarming retaliation and get knockback

#

I’m okay with this

muted blaze
#

Oh huh, yeah it's a new profile

#

Ha

#

So not only do you go flying, so does your weapon in the opposite direction

vagrant grotto
#

Yeah no I’m okay with this

ashen crown
#

I could use some advice:

testing the Brigand and some Wallflower Rebake Optionals for my 2 Regular Lurkers, 1 Elite Strider, and 1 Veteran Lurker reinforce, so I need opinions on load outs for my control.

Option 1:
Elite Strider: Surge Killer, Survival Knife, Spare Parts
Lurkers: Kinetic Transference, Empowered Shroud
Vet Lurker: Kinetic Transference, Absolute Darkness

Option 2:
Elite Strider: Survival Knife, Weathering, Siege Kit
Lurkers: Surge Killer, Empowered Shroud
Vet Lurker: Surge Killer, Absolute Darkness

Option 3: a separate combo of the listed optionals

For additional context, this is a normal control, all the enemies have Brigand, and the map comes with some difficult terrain baked in. And I wanna adhere to CRB optional maximums. Also, the Vet Lurker WILL have Seeded Shadows the Veteran Optional regardless.

Any advice what to go for to best playtest the lot?

vagrant grotto
ashen crown
#

There’s only one Strider and Multiple Lurkers so I’m leaning the Lurkers, buuut I also don’t wanna lose Kinetic Transference

ashen crown
#

GM uses Leech, Avenger, and Ghost in same encounter. Is asked to stop.

vagrant grotto
#

Fascinating

#

Intangible would fuck with the Leech at least

#

Wouldn’t be clean

#

Is this a hypothetical or did this actually happen

ashen crown
#

Actually it just occurred to me- Leech pairs terribly with Berserker, but great with Rebake Avenger.

In contrast, Ghost pairs terribly with Rebake Avenger (can’t get Vanguard Armor from an Intangible ally), but great with a Berserker

ashen crown
#

Tho now I’m wondering how you could get it to work theoretically

#

Can’t have the Leech grapple the Ghost, and the Ghost can only Quantum Bond the leech for so long without interfering

#

If they were both attached to the same NPC that also wouldn’t help because Quantum Bond would also break grapples (if an NPC used any benefits I mean)

#

Huh, I guess you accidentally prevented NPC Gundams and thereby made things more balanced. Good job Valk

vagrant grotto
#

I accidentally did that on purpose 😤

ashen crown
#

I stand corrected lol

vagrant grotto
#

Nah I joke

ashen crown
#

lol

#

It is interesting how Ghost sucks for grapplers, both allied and enemy

vagrant grotto
#

Beginners luck lol

#

And yeah

ashen crown
#

I think the best use case for a Leech + Ghost combo is the ghost bonds with an ally and a Leech bonds with an enemy and an avenger rushes into engagement

#

Which tbh is still pretty scary

vagrant grotto
#

That strikes me as efficient yeah

ashen crown
#

Kill the Avenger to get rid of the Ghost, but the Leech is making the avenger more dangerous. Kill the Leech and the avenger is pissed and is Ghost bonded. Move away from the avenger first and now it overwatches you and the leech can pull you back in. Have someone else try and shut down the avenger’s reactions and the ghost + leech make that much harder (bolster, quantum bond, etc)

vagrant grotto
#

Excellent

#

Ship it, combat that’s just 4x Leech+Ghost+Avenger

#

Combat triangles away!

ashen crown
#

And then Extrude Firmament to, yes, make the Ghost more vulnerable, but also give the perfect bait to trigger revenge + have Vanguard Armor trigger on the Avenger + let the Leech dive in to support the ghost for a bit

#

That’s probably the single best use case for Extrude Firmament I can think of

#

(There are probably still good ones but this one feels like the best)

#

Actually, I just realized a really strong positive to Superimpose Firmament- outside of range 2, characters inside just can’t be targeted by tangible characters. Huh. How did that never occur to me

#

It’s almost like super Lodestone in that sense I suppose

vagrant grotto
#

Superimpose Firmament is me reminiscing about Limbo’s Cataclysm ult from Warframe lol

ashen crown
#

then again, without Quantum Bond active the same applies for characters within

vagrant grotto
#

And it’s literally just Hardlight barrier without the damage lets be honest

ashen crown
muted blaze
#

Step 1: bring leech
Step 2: bring ghost
Step 3: ghost bonds with leech sharing leeches space
Step 4: leech grapples ghost sharing leeches space
Step 5: ???

vagrant grotto
#

The grapple ends as soon as the Leech stops being intangible

muted blaze
#

Honestly I think this doesn't even need PPg to break space time... A leech can grapple a leech and suddenly they share each others spaces and are removed from the board

vagrant grotto
#

“Removed from board” is such a misnomer on Shaka’s part, as the intent is that it’s still there and targetable

muted blaze
#

Also... Any reason why ghosts are specifically sharing a singular space of a target

#

As that differs from every effect in the game that does something similar?

vagrant grotto
#

Mostly just intended that “you don’t track this thing’s movement too hard”

vagrant grotto
muted blaze
#

Because you can knockback the target and kick the ghost off

vagrant grotto
#

Or… so I thought

muted blaze
#

Or even grapple

vagrant grotto
#

Yeah the issue is that if they share all spaces, where is the ghost in all this

muted blaze
#

Honestly that makes sense

vagrant grotto
#

I make it distinct so that question is avoided

#

If it was MULE and you knocked back the ghost it’d be easy

#

But it’s the other way around so yeah

muted blaze
#

Or mourning cloak

#

Yeah it makes sense why it's like that

vagrant grotto
#

Hm. Someone should try Goliath + Ghost (or Demolisher + Ghost) and lemme know how it goes

#

Heavy Framers and all that

ashen crown
vagrant grotto
#

There’s always Heat and always the question of “is it worth slapping a Ghost on this thing” but yeah

muted blaze
#

I was reading the ghost again to see their purpose

#

From reading, they're a slippery bastard who multiplies the slippery bastard modifier on a target

ashen crown
#

The best part is when the Goliath is destroyed, that’s where the real challenge comes in, aka the fact that no hall in the Sitrep is larger than size 3 and therefore a Goliath being destroyed indefinitely blocks a path with the wreck

muted blaze
#

If the targets a slippery bastard, they become a very slippery bastard. If they're not a slippery bastard they may be a tad slippery

#

I realised if a ghost bonds with a grunt, uses paradox state, someone hostile actions the grunt, a 4+ is rolled... The grunt dies because it takes external heat

ashen crown
#

That’s another Leech victory let’s gooooo

muted blaze
#

I don't think that's a problem, simply don't bond with the grunt

ashen crown
#

The Protocol to go intangible technically isn’t external tho

muted blaze
#

But it means you can kill a grunt with a scan

muted blaze
#

"the target takes 1 heat"

ashen crown
#

I understand I just mean a Grunt being Ghosted still has its utility

muted blaze
#

Split time stream I see would make a goliath ghost much more terrifying

ashen crown
#

Thankfully I’m not doing that lmao

#

I am using Superimpose Firmament however, which when combined with Crush Targeting + Quantum Bond is possibly worse

#

“Mother may we have Anchor?”
“We have Anchor at home darling.”
Anchor at Home:

muted blaze
#

Oh fuck

#

That's fun

ashen crown
#

If I were using Ghost + Goliath in a control or smthn this would be way worse, because stuff like H0R_OS 1 and Metafold Carver stop working so good

vagrant grotto
#

Title: Valk's Lancer Playground - Team Chaotics
Game System: LANCER RPG
Platform: FoundryVTT
Chat: Voice through Pilot NET Discord, text through Foundry
Availability: 4 seats
Time: <t:1765047600:F>, ~4-5 hours in length.
Tone: Fast and furious playtest skirmishes.
Hook: You've got a delivery to make and the Black Legion is in the way! Break their line and escape in time!
Requirements: @ me in this channel if you’re interested. If accepted, create an LL6 character using Massif-published content.
Details: This is a playtest for some of Kai's Rebakes #1334655875679260692 , my homebrew NPCs, and my special house rules. Most of my houserules can be found here, but key highlights:

  • Overcharge lets you reroll an attack/check/save instead of take an extra action, and refreshes on a rest.
  • Aid lets you split Stabilize’s action cost between players!
  • Overkill is now opt-in: Choose to activate it or don’t!
  • Brace is 1/scene but now has no downside.
  • NPCs with Recharge abilities also take Self Heat from those abilities.
  • Overheating can inflict Overheated, which prevents use of self-heat abilities.
  • Structure Damage is replaced with picking between being Dazed or suffering System Trauma.
  • All mechs only have 1 Stress, become Exposed & Overheated upon reaching max heat cap, and take excess heat as irreducible Energy damage.
  • Lifting/Dragging rules are revamped to support Escort Objectives in a sensible way!

Other: I’m Valk! I’ve previously published a third-party module for Lancer. I run brisk and fluid combats. If you have any questions about the rules I plan to include, please ask!

muted blaze
#

God damn it do I want to do another playtest a third week in a row crylaughing

vagrant grotto
#

search your feelings

muted blaze
#

I'll say, put me down but not as high priority, if you get 4 others let them in cos I've done a lot of these and a wide array of people would be better for feedback than me many times in a row

umbral sluice
#

oh saturday? unfortunately have my own lancer to run that day, most likely

#

furthermore, i do kind of share Al's sentiment in letting some new people in to get some different feedback

vagrant grotto
#

how does Sunday feel for folks then

#

I get it, but also, y'all get my drift on these

sand mulch
#

I usually have lancer on Saturdays but its on hiatus. I feel this calling my name like the green goblin mask

muted blaze
vagrant grotto
#

that shit's dope

muted blaze
#

Yeah I signed up for it yesterday when I played. I got reminded the last game was on that day and jump scared. then had a bunch of fun

muted blaze
vagrant grotto
granite saddle
#

Only if it's still on saturday though, Sundays are still off-limits for me

vagrant grotto
#

still saturday

sand mulch
vagrant grotto
#

I hope it still proves satisfying

sand mulch
#

like what i'm doing today is testing how self heat, nuke cav, and how OC work. the HA manufacturer is my baby and i think what you've cooked up teehee is a really cool alternative even if i can't OC loop and play more lancer per lancer

granite saddle
#

We've had a Sunzi once and it went pretty well, so as far as I can tell it's still really good

sand mulch
#

its hard to dethrone the king of goofy bullshit

placid glacier
sand mulch
muted blaze
#

I think I can finish my XCOM long war campaign before it releases

sand mulch
#

btw al you've inspired me to want to start another long war campaign but the risk of rain dlc happened to come out around the same time. i need to configure my mads because last time they did not agree with each other...

granite saddle
#

God so much things I want to play coming out at the same time ugh

opaque crescent
#

If there's spots then put me in, pretty please
-# either day works for me

vagrant grotto
#

That makes 4 with Al, if more folks show interest I’ll boot Al first before preparing to pull names out of a hat

sand mulch
#

idk if you already included me put me at a big maybe

vagrant grotto
ashen crown
#

Question: For Ghost's Phase Shift, dooes it permit passive LoS stuff like Commander's Bolster Network to work? SInce it goes off of the Commander's LoS to other characters rather than other character's LoS to the COmmander, and the Ghost can still draw LoS to characters while intangible, I'm guessing it still does?

vagrant grotto
#

As long as the ghost is the commander

ashen crown
#

Can a Ghast Drone inside Lodestone still attack characters inside Lodestone even if the Deployer is outside the zone?

vagrant grotto
#

Allies in the area are not valid targets for ranged attacks made from outside the area.

ashen crown
#

I have some Anchor Feedback (unfortunately no Brigand Feedback due to bad luck + bad strategy):

This was a Finaljas Control (CRB except if the Players obtain a 4+ point lead, the combat ends early), I didn't see a need to send in my reinforcement Anchor so there was one Veteran Slingshot Anchor w/ Newtonian Amplifier that lasted a very complete 2 rounds, getting 2 activations off (with lodestone being active between activations), but it died immediately at the start of its second activation due to a Tempest Drone.

So for my first point, I do think I was using the Anchor better this time, but the Anchor still feels like a High Skill Ceiling NPC. Not a bad one or hard to use one, but it's definitely stronger in the hands of an experienced GM.

My players think the Anchor was Intimidating, but generally not too harmful. It wouldn't have done a lot of damage according to their theory, but because it missed all its attacks so no way to know for sure (and it got 3 characters in an AOE so it really had a rough time). Newtonian Amplifier and Slingshot had the issue of not having a good opportunity to use them, as much as they were on my mind and I really wanted to use them. For Slingshot, I was pairing a Strider with the Anchor and was banking off of being able to fire attacks in the Marksman Kit then swap to skirmisher to fire more ranged attacks, but for several reasons that didn't pan out. As for Newtonian Amplifier, yeah getting only 1 full turn off wasn't going to do it any favors.

.. I'm also realizing something stupid. When building the encounter, I had planned to test Magnetic Reversal. Yet for some reason, I didn't, and tested Newtonian Amplifier instead. And now I'm just really mad at myself because that could've turned the encounter around completely.

Character limit, so the good in the next message

#

This Anchor properly wandered into the fray in this combat, and that's where Lodestone really shone. THe PCs were using their Core Powered Zheng (I know, but that's not the focus rn), and Lodestone really scared him because he straight up could not Xiaoli into the Anchor while lodestone was up, so the melee unit couldn't engage with the Anti-Range unit. That really saved some lives. Moreover, the Anchor was able to manage its space (thanks to a mirage) just carefully enough that it could shield allies aplenty with Lodestone, helping keep some units alive for longer. Sometimes this made the anchor a target, but other times this made invisible characters that were worse targets vulnerable, and that was fantastic.

As for its durability, it's durable yes, but it did go down faster than I would've liked. Still, it was mainly due to Swallowtail Shred and focus fire, so that's really just Lancer operating as it should.

All in all, the Base Kit really shone in this combat, and the optionals kinda... didn't. But tbh, that may just be a case of "Bad GM strategy" more than anything. So yeah.

opaque crescent
#

Playtest Feedback 30-11-25

Initial Opfor: 
    Elite Prism - Mobile Projectors, OMNIGLASS Barrier
    Veteran Vulture - "Carcass" Bunker, Lightning Reflexes
    Knight x2 - Punishing Blow, Sweeping Blows
    Operator [K] - Fade Generator
Reinforcements:
    Veteran Torrent - Primordial, Wash Away
    Hatchet - Reckless Dive
    Kensei - Gaussian Blur
    Archer [K] - Covering Fire (Undeployed)```

Kobold

  • Mimic Carapace feels better, lets player feel they're allowed to invest out of hull into other stats (here being agi). Vibe of "scrappy little guy, diving from cover to cover."
  • Quote: "Cool and Awesome."

Balor

  • Changes are "odd."
  • Protocol is neat but difficult to maintain (in theory).
  • Felt like they got smacked about a lot, but felt fine on attrition. (Note core usage and overshield gain over combat).
  • 5 Speed feels odd, feels off-brand for the hulking swarm of nanites. Seems counter to its kit with a whip to pull.
  • Balor not having terrible stats? Wonderful.
  • Nano Whip, lock on is nice. Works a lot better with stuff like Held Image. Otherwise can feel quite meh. Felt difficult to make it work despite being the capstone. 2d6 feels very swingy.
  • Not good data on swarm body, Gauntlet doesn't work well for it. (This isn't an issue, this is honestly good design). Maybe a little punishing to QA to disable. Range increment over damage increment felt good.
  • Swarm Body and Nano Whip both have action sinks while being on the same license.

Auto Coord

  • "Neat."
  • Lets Kidd tick up their die a lot more, helps to balance out the action economy loss from overcharge change.
  • Look into FORGE-2 synergy.

Overheat

  • Feels like a big buff to nuc cav to a player, being able to keep bonus after stressing (At the expense of staying exposed).

Thermal Rifle

  • Actually felt like it did something compared to old TR.
  • Feels like a viable alternative to AR now.

Prism

  • Unclear intentions on its role. Wants to flank, control, and defend with its kit, with the generalised stats not helping the clarity.
  • Mobile Projectors didn't come up too much.
  • Blind felt kinda rough when brought with Knight, difficulty to hit other things while being unable to target the only non-difficult enemy can be really rough.
  • OMNIGLASS can be really oppressive when paired with Vulture, the shapes it generates are much more flexible that Barricade's cubes and can sometimes very easily clog up a sitrep. Tech Cover is really cool though.

Vulture

  • Bunker very cool, very situational but very very strong when said situation arises. I personally enjoy the balance around requiring the sitrep to have progressed enough for wrecks to be available.
  • I enjoy the scaling size with size of wreck with the defined height 4.
  • Phosphorous Cannon LOS block is kinda strange with large characters, a Goliath sticks his pinky in the smog and becomes blind.
  • Condition clear + Overshield is good, they sacced genuinely valuable resources (yummy wreck) to protect sitrep setpiece from the Kidd Laser.
  • 2 armour maybe slightly jarring immediately, but not crazy to adjust.

Knight

  • Want to focus front or backline, and struggle against those who aren't their target. This is good.
  • No linebreak. This isn't an issue.
  • AoE knockback with Sweeping Blows felt a little scary, but not too bad. Counter to this, this works really well for it's role in locking frontline skirmishers down.

Torrent

  • This thing feels really good as a size 3.
  • Wash away didn't come up, unfortunately.
  • It does it's job really well, feeling really threatening and not unfair.
  • Very good pressure by just seeing it on the board, it feels like a genuine threat.
  • Storm Surge getting around Slow and Immobilize feels maybe slightly strong. This is countered by Storm Surge making it a horrible grappler, it wants to wash people off the point repeatedly while others do the grappling for it.
  • Storm surge maybe needs a clarification on what obstructions it ignores.
# 
- Reckless dive did not come up. My players do not want to attack this thing :sob:
- Doesn't feel great as reinforcement, more of a note to self for future opfors.
- It's loop feels good otherwise, keeping at arms length while still applying pressure.

Kensei
- Valk has all notes about Kensei already```
vagrant grotto
vagrant grotto
sudden cosmos
#

Looks like I might be able to have a test again. What's the current "test these optionals" list looking like?

vagrant grotto
#

Lemme share

#

Anchor

  • [ ] Newtonian Amplifier
  • [ ] Magnetic Reversal
    Capacitor
  • [ ] Thunderfall (ultra)
    Ghost
  • [ ] Superimpose Firmament
  • [ ] String Theory Marionette
  • [ ] Maxwell’s Demon (vet)
  • [ ] Coherent Entanglement (ultra)
    Hatchet
  • [ ] Rocket Bola
  • [ ] Reckless Dive (updated)
  • [ ] Return to Sender (updated)
  • [ ] Hurricane of steel (ultra)
    Kensei
  • [ ] Gaussian Blur
  • [ ] Mortal draw (ultra)
    Knight
  • [ ] Hero’s Banner
    Mesmerist
  • [ ] Mountebank’s Jaunt
    Napalm
  • [x] None
    Occultist
  • [ ] Doubling season (vet)
    Prism
  • [ ] Scintillating gleam
    Torrent
  • [ ] Wash away
  • [ ] Crashing tsunami
  • [ ] Split the sea (ultra)
    Vulture
  • [ ] Rapid refabrication (ultra)
    Zealot
  • [ ] Flagellant’s Cleansing
#

Realizing that I need to look at few of Anchor’s optionals a little more

#

Napalm though, that’s pretty dang solid at this point

sudden cosmos
#

Thinking I'll give thunderfall a spin

vagrant grotto
#

It’s basically been unchanged since I made it but I feel it needs more testing yeah

sudden cosmos
#

This party won't be seeing a capacitor anytime soon so it seems like a good one to try

vagrant grotto
#

Yesterday provided me with some useful Prism data too so that’s good

#

Vulture’s 2 armor continues to turn heads but overall seems manageable

sudden cosmos
#

They'll be getting threatened by a vulture soon enough, so that data is coming soon™

#

I need to finish outlining the mission first but the BBEG is a vulture

sudden cosmos
#

I'm assuming thunderfall+volley module means only one line becomes the thunderfall one

opaque crescent
#

Qu about anchor from someone who's never seen one in use, does Lodestone move with the Anchor or it essentially "deployed" on use

vagrant grotto
#

It’s like Minotaur’s interdiction field, or any other burst effect

#

Bursts RAW move with the originator unless otherwise mentioned

gaunt heron
vagrant grotto
#

Al and Meow are on waitlist; Meow will be prioritized but if unavailable the seat will fall to Al

gaunt heron
#

I'd love to get on that waitlist too if pos, my friday lancer game is looking like it wont be running and I need my fix :3

muted blaze
#

Frequent "playtests" I think I'm coming to realise are actually just a fix

#

Motivation to make my own stuff so I can run it and I can just make lancer so I can lancer

sudden cosmos
#

I won't be playtesting (player) because I will be playtesting (GM)

muted blaze
#

Having thoughts of another playtest, but then what I'd want to playtest would probably be so hectic and wild that it would be unfair to call it a prototype pattern groups playtest crylaughing

vagrant grotto
muted blaze
#

Yeah, that's my thoughts

dapper goblet
#

God I wanna run more kenseis

#

Theyre super fun but i think they've gotten hefty tweaks since I last fielded

umbral sluice
granite saddle
sand mulch
#

if i participate i'm definitely trying sunzi

vagrant grotto
dapper goblet
#

Sir yes sir

granite saddle
#

Oh back to speed 5 ?

umbral sluice
#

oh it was really funny to hear valk's reaction when we said it felt slow now lmao

dapper goblet
#

4 to 5 is a lot! 25% boost!

vagrant grotto
vagrant grotto
vagrant grotto
#

Regarding Balor stuff: I'm revising Hellswarm so that Scouring Swarm and Regeneration exist again. Scouring Swarm keeps the AP damage, Regeneration restores 2+Grit HP as an end-of-turn free action if the Balor isn't Exposed

The reworked Hive Frenzy still Shreds, the Scouring Swarm damage is still 4 AP, and the HP from Regen is still 4+Grit

#

What I'm not changing is its speed, mostly because Speed 5 will help it lean into its primary Striker role, and because I wanted to differentiate the base stats a bit more from the Gorgon (an unnecessary choice? perhaps)

#

that said, I could entertain arguments of why Gorgon should be Speed 5 lol

muted blaze
vagrant grotto
#

not changing reworked balor speed

#

it's staying a brisk 5

#

As for nanobot whip and Lock on stuff: considering changing the on-hit effect to key off hitting someone with a tech attack earlier in the turn instead of consuming lock on

vagrant grotto
#

If the Prism consumed LOCK ON against the target, while the Prism is within the target’s line of sight, their hostile actions must include the Prism as a target until the end of their next turn.
@muted blaze @opaque crescent thoughts/feelings

muted blaze
#

That's neat

vagrant grotto
#

I'll do the same with Narcissus

muted blaze
#

It will have a different effect on supports/defenders but honestly that's nice

vagrant grotto
#

yeah, like, there's still potential for Crush Targeting layering but at least now if someone is playing pacifist or wants to use Bolster (or similar) instead, they can do so

#

Also: WRT the Omniglass Barriers being lines of Size 2, my reference point wasn't actually the Aegis, but Drake's Fortress Protocol

#

"two sections of hard cover (Line 2, Size 1)..."

#

Anyway, I opted to leave Compelled Duel alone since the bigger offender was Diffraction Beam

#

bunch of other little fixes otherwise

muted blaze
#

Yeah, like compelled duel is fine I think...

#

The knight is cool, it just needs a certain headspace for me to have a crack at it... I can see it being really good but it fell flat last time I ran it but I think that's just on me

vagrant grotto
#

have you played a 5e paladin

muted blaze
#

Yeah

#

Actually?

vagrant grotto
muted blaze
#

Divine smite with all your spell slots and then cry when you can't anymore? crylaughing

vagrant grotto
#

Stride forth and issue your challenge

#

Be bold!

#

anywho, stuff's feeling better now

#

and the optionals that have seen at least 1 combat of use are growing in number!

muted blaze
#

Every new version of PPG that releases, all numbers in the optionals increase by 1

vagrant grotto
#

the prototype template is still in my v1.14 draft.... idk if I have the energy to polish that off at this point lol

#

deffo not for Saturday

ashen crown
#

All I'll say is that it's called Prototype Pattern Groups so like... yeah

vagrant grotto
#

I meant I don’t know if I’ll work on it this week lol

placid glacier
#

What are the current additionals being considered for the Prototype template again?

umbral sluice
#

i do like it a lot

vagrant grotto
umbral sluice
#

identical character is everything exactly the same right? not just the same class or whatever

#

so you could have two different prototype ronins that would be different scans to no longer have difficulty

vagrant grotto
#

As in: If you are using a faction roster, your players will be rewarded for scanning

umbral sluice
#

i see i see, very cool idea

#

i feel like the optionals should involve lots of self heat or some other way to represent unstable and experimental tech

vagrant grotto
#

It’s had some holes poked in it previously but I wanna test it

#

The optionals are a grab bag of “higher tech” or “overengineered” stuff

#

I already have like, 15 or so lol

umbral sluice
#

oh hell yeah

granite saddle
muted blaze
#

Templates are just fun

#

After thinking about my legion template and how it references the RPV I went "but RPV is kinda ass... What if I had my own Automated template"

vagrant grotto
muted blaze
#

Oh fair enough

#

I don't think I'm familiar

#

What do you mean I can't make an NPC with 5 different "turret emplacement" templates from 5 different third party supplements

gaunt heron
#

scanner swarm felt a little out of place before but I like how this ties in tech attacks more

muted blaze
#

Despite it being what the balor can be good at and such, I'm worried about it feeling very forced into a playstyle

#

I can't imagine equipping a tech attack reliant heavy melee weapon really on any other mech outside of balor. Where before on crits at least it could be useful on idk, a Blackbeard or Emapakai

#

i desperately want it to be better than crit fishing however 😩

umbral sluice
#

i'd be more afraid of puppetwatch i think

#

wait whats the resolution on that again

#

do they get engaged and stop moving from puppet?

#

eh maybe not

#

on second thought

muted blaze
#

Oof yeah 💀

#

Puppet overwatch 💀

umbral sluice
#

puppetwatch to pull them into you + TTT followed by normal skirmish

#

though they need to already be in threat 3 when you puppet so like, whatever i guess?

#

idk

opaque crescent
#

Obv not something that is ever a first consideration because it's cross-homebrew, but the latest nano whip would work really nicely on imp

umbral sluice
#

wait imp has a heavy?

opaque crescent
#

oh it's heavy nvm

ashen crown
#

Feels like it has less License Synergy

#

But maybe that’s not a big deal

opaque crescent
#

How does Napalm's Long-Burn Catalyst interact with Appendix B: One Stress for All?

#

or is it simply meant to be slightly stronger with those rules in play

vagrant grotto
#

It’s allowed to be a lil scary

vagrant grotto
vagrant grotto
granite saddle
#

Burst 3 for 1SP is insane yeah, at least 2SP minimum imo

gaunt heron
#

for sure

#

I do like burst 3 makes it more applicable for other frames

ashen crown
#

That almost feels like Liturgicode for 2 SP for any low sensors frame is all. But eh. I do think Scanner Swarm doesn't synergize badly with balor in general, a Balor still wants to be engaged and it still has a reason to tech attack while engaged, it's really just that one Nanobot Whip change that's awkward imo

steel apex
#

Burst 3 is, imo, pretty nutso

#

even with +SP cost, I think Burst 2 might be a little more sensible

ashen crown
#

The Nanobot Whip change not pairing with Scanner Swarm feels like something that only becomes a problem if you pay attention to it too much.

#

If you just leave it be it'll probably be fine

vagrant grotto
#

Legit it’s just that scanner swarm + nanobot whip + TTT in CRB just don’t super synergize well lol

ashen crown
#

I think it's just Scanner Swarm and Nanobot Whip, TTT seems like it's done nothing wrong in this specific context

vagrant grotto
#

Like, not in a clean way

vagrant grotto
#

Can’t get adjacent unless you pull it

#

Cant get TTT on hit unless you tech attack it

ashen crown
#

Oh wait I just got it oops

#

It may just have to be one of those things you leave alone- if there was a true combo that could prove to be too much

vagrant grotto
#

Yeah, exactly

steel apex
#

something to keep in mind about +accuracy on tech stuff is that it isn't really "interactive" the way it is on ranged weapons, it just sort of happens and the only real "counter" to it is impaired

vagrant grotto
#

It boils down to “you gotta do one of these things raw first before you can start the combo”

vagrant grotto
steel apex
#

this isn't saying that expanding scanner swarm's range is bad or anything, but I think there's a reason you don't see a lot of real readily flexible +accuracy to tech stuff

#

scanner swarm does it by, essentially, being very close range

#

and most hackers aren't going to want to do that

vagrant grotto
#

Of course yeah, and yet the 1 sp still surprises me

#

So, yeah its 🤷 for me

#

Not certain I’ll touch ScanSwarm

steel apex
#

like if I'm being honest, I think the odd man out here is Thinking Tomorrow's Thoughts in the sense that the gameplay it encourages seems completely arbitrarily assigned and out of focus with basically most everything in lancer you'd expect to pair it with

#

it's like a combo piece for a deck that doesn't exist

#

most melee guys in lancer are not sidelining as hackers, most hackers aren't sidelining as melee units, there's like ONE horus frame that combines "something like a hacker if you squint" and "a melee weapon in the license" in the balor and frankly I'm not under the impression TTT was made AS a balor combo piece

ashen crown
#

I feel like the bigger appeal of TTT is the Temporary Paracausal, no?

#

(which doesn't do it any favors when it comes to redesign to be fair)

steel apex
#

sure, but my point is more that the specific way you go about it (hack someone, then melee them) feels kind of randomly applied

#

"hacker melee" is not something lancer out of the box really robustly pushes or supports in a way that makes TTT make "sense" as a core bonus

#

you can, I guess, stick a tac melee on a minotaur if you really want 1d6+2 paracausal damage, but it feels like a very weird get

ashen crown
#

Yeah, plus Scanner Swarm + Frame Stats probably give the niche Melee Hacker Role enough material to work with anyway

vagrant grotto
#

As a Swordmage enjoyer, I’m happy to have something like TTT exist, to be clear

#

But maybe not in its current form

steel apex
#

I don't DISLIKE it, but it feels like it was a thing meant to draw emergent results out of a bunch of stuff and if I'm being honest I don't think the pool of stuff lancer has really creates those emergent results

vagrant grotto
#

Like, I may sooner turn TTT into a “melee attack applies Invade effect” than do the weird paracasual stuff

steel apex
#

and since the discussion here is on combo friction between scanner swarm, nanobot whip, and TTT, I'm just offering my perspective that I think the weird one here might not be the first two so much as the third thing which feels like it doesn't really "combo" with much of anything in lancer by default

#

TTT is weird and awkward to make really good use of, and I think that's sort of its own fault

ashen crown
#

modifying either the trigger or bonus seems like it would do... something positive, at the very least. The concept of "hitting with a tech attack to empower your next non-tech attack action" seems fun, and "gain melee accuracy + temp paracausal after landing a different attack to encourage a momentum sorta thing" seem fun on their own tbh. Combining them is just kinda awkward

vagrant grotto
#

Tbf I’m also bearish on irreducible damage

ashen crown
#

Ofc, removing the Paracausal is probably inevitable

steel apex
#

my hot take is that if TTT wants to be the "hack then melee" core bonus, it should give anyone who takes it a bespoke integrated melee weapon

vagrant grotto
#

Yeah I could buy that

steel apex
#

as otherwise, horus-focused builds are basically falling back on GMS stuff

#

it's like how that one talent in Legionnaire gives you an integrated ranged weapon

ashen crown
#

I was gonna suggest something bonus damage based to parallel OpCal, but then I realized you could stack that + OpCal and that would be terrible

umbral sluice
#

i mean, if opcal is cut anyway

steel apex
#

plus approximately one trillion people have made "data knife" melee weapons since lancer's existence

vagrant grotto
steel apex
#

simply folding that into an otherwise niche core bonus strikes me as a good way to ensure it has a minimum amount of value without needing the player to jump through additional hoops to try and make a weird melee minotaur work

#

doesn't do much for the scanner swarm/nanobot whip issue

ashen crown
#

At that point TTT is trying to be its own thing and that's probably fine

vagrant grotto
# 
Daemon Shiv
Auxiliary Melee, Smart
[Threat 1][1d3 Energy]
Attacks with this weapon are treated as Tech Attacks and use your Systems instead of Grit as the attack bonus. On hit, apply one Invade effect to the target.
muted blaze
muted blaze
umbral sluice
vagrant grotto
muted blaze
#

Sick

#

It was my first thought

ashen crown
#

Since it's an integrated the size class only matters when it comes to talent integration. Hunter 3 makes it kinda strong, but Duelist and Executioner are probably more dangerous things for it to combo with

vagrant grotto
umbral sluice
#

oh i see

#

hunter 3 free throw

vagrant grotto
#

Also you can overwatch with it

ashen crown
#

Also Overwatch

#

Jinx

#

Pankrati is also an option

granite saddle
vagrant grotto
#

Listen my brain lives in NPC land 99% of the time

ashen crown
#

I forgot Tech Attack and Systems were two different numbers lol

muted blaze
#

Me with my sekhmet invade monster

#

I have my pocket assault I keep stabbing with puppet systems to guide me in a direction I want to go

ashen crown
#

Now that you mention that, Should the Knife rider be 1/round or no?

vagrant grotto
#

Though if Hunter is an issue I’ll just pull the old “can’t use talents on this” trick

ashen crown
#

That just defeats the purpose then doesn’t it?

#

Of having an integrated invade weapon in the first place I mean

vagrant grotto
#

Let’s drop the topic

#

Im spitballing here

steel apex
#

I feel like I should disclaim that my ideas are not always ironclad

ashen crown
#

Is it alright if I add a thought on OG TTT?

vagrant grotto
#

All good, I liked it so I riffed on it

#

Not right now

#

Save it for later if I bring it back up

muted blaze
#

Sorry if I came across as "this is bad did you think of this"

vagrant grotto
ashen crown
#

Hm. I wonder if a Commander Ghost w/ Military Discipline would. Work. Bolster Network works because it keys off of the Ghost’s LoS but Adjacency is a different beast.

#

If it does work a Military Discipline Ghost + a Breacher would be funny

#

Perhaps with Superimpose Firmament- the fact I’m gonna be testing Superimpose Firmament soon has made me realize just how useful it is depending on the NPC it combos with

vagrant grotto
#

Thinking about Jury Rigged for brigands and wondering if I should change it to be the inverse of Prototype’s on-scan effect (so it grants accuracy if you scan it)

Depends on how Prototype’s trait goes

ashen crown
#

Flavor wise I dunno if that necessarily fits

#

Brigand is less a Scrapper template and more just an alt pirate template.

#

Genuine question- does Brigand really need a negative trait?

#

Could be an idea better suited for a different template, I just don't know if it fits Brigand

#

If you keep the idea I feel like making it like. Gaining accuracy on saves against them would be better, since the Brigand is heavily save focused and it can be flavored as "knowing about their dirty tactics ahead of time makes you primed against them"

#

But that's also harder to track so eh

vagrant grotto
#

Shock tactics that are less effective if you know they’re coming

ashen crown
#

Yeah, plus the base trait involves a save

#

Do you think including Checks in there would be a good idea? Commandeer and Rescind specifically only involve checks to remove, but apart from them (and Surgekiller + Finishing Blow), they all involve Saves.

vagrant grotto
#

maybe, idk, I don't even know if Prototype's trait is a good one

ashen crown
#

But also, checks start to broach into things such as Grappling + Searching

vagrant grotto
#

I also don't want shit to be too hard to track

#

so 🤷

ashen crown
# vagrant grotto maybe, idk, I don't even know if Prototype's trait is a good one

I think it’s cool, just means for Prototype specifically you may wanna be more sparse with using them in an OpFor than, say, Anomaly.

For Brigand, because this is exclusively detrimental to the Brigand and more specifically targets the template traits than the Class traits, it feels more appropriate and still permits en masse use of the template

#

It also puts Scan on a similar power level to Bolster vs a Brigand, vs putting Scan on a similar power level to Lock On vs a Prototype

#

At the end of the day, you’re incentivizing Scan. That’s almost never a bad idea

#

By the way, I understand for Anomaly letting stuff like Athena equate to scan essentially, but would you have that apply to the Prototype Scan Trait too?

vagrant grotto
#

probably

ashen crown
#

I personally don’t know about that but that’s just me

#

Side note- if you could somehow guarantee that GMs were using the Kai Rebakes, putting Pause Engine in the Prototype Optionals feels befitting

vagrant grotto
ashen crown
#

Oh cool!

vagrant grotto
ashen crown
#

Oh neat

muted blaze
#

Prototype rebake scourer wish flash lens crylaughing

muted blaze
vagrant grotto
muted blaze
#

Oh...

#

💀

vagrant grotto
#

Yeah

#

Me: Gets a new archer
excited about the “optional systems”
looks inside
nothing but traits

#

But yeah this is something I may revise soon

muted blaze
#

Wait

#

Archer only gets traits crylaughing

#

I think I never notice because I'm still not used to the colouring scheme rebake uses

vagrant grotto
#

I was referring to CRB but yeah that too

muted blaze
#

What do I refer to mine as...

#

I call the optional list "X Systems and traits"

#

Eh good enough

ashen crown
#

Systems tend to not directly key into traits specific to the NPC’s base class, so maybe Systems is more accurate?

vagrant grotto
#

legitimately, this stuff is radically inconsistent across the CRB

#

like, NPC classes are consistent with Base Systems and Optional Systems (for mechs)

#

but once you hit the Bios and Templates all bets are off

muted blaze
#

👏 Don't 👏 make 👏 your 👏 keywords 👏 mean 👏 multiple 👏 things 👏

vagrant grotto
#

I'm breaking the wheel

#

it's apparent it's the Template's features by context, just like the NPCs

#

also, they're no longer Systems, they're now straight up Features

muted blaze
#

That's a good word

#

I was thinking addons or additi... Actually features just sounds natural and rolls off the tonggue

vagrant grotto
#

it's literally the wording Compcon uses lol

muted blaze
#

Done

ashen crown
#

Funny Template Weapons to give the PPG Ghost:

  • Pirate Boarding Leash (the grapple doesn't pan out but the pull does)
  • Spacer Concussion Gun + Gravity Rifle
  • Ultra Hellfire Projector (ravager turret dealing 4/6/8 kinetic damage gets hit too hard by the damage halving, meanwhile the Hellfire Projector damage split = less damage halving, and burn is AP)
  • Industrial Rock Drill (for Prone Knocking + Terrain Destroying)
  • Industrial Rivet Cannon (the tier scaling attacks is pretty not kosher but the knockback + immobilize + threat is funny)
  • Industrial Wrecker (Das a lotta attacks)
  • Industrial Industrial Clamps (put the Ghost on a Berserker or Cataphract- no one said the Ghost had to be involved in the grapple for the auto-hits)
  • Spec Ops Serrated Machete (free shred)
  • Horror Assimilation Maw (auto reduce to 0 HP)
  • Horror Disruptor Whip (no damage dealt = no damage lost, also overshield removal while leaving the host free action wise)
  • Anomaly Extrude Knife (self explanatory)
  • Anomaly Memento Culpa (idk how this interacts with intangible tbh)
  • Rebake Ultra Nova Missiles + Wraith Nexus
vagrant grotto
muted blaze
#

Hey, look... The ghost rock drill

#

It's only doing 25 AP kinetic to terrain... Not the full 50

#

That's quite a significant downgrade

ashen crown
#

Unfortunately I was too scared to make any of my ghosts spec ops in my next combat

muted blaze
#

/j

ashen crown
muted blaze
#

Prototype Ghost, with Rebake demo earth shatter at t1 Does 5 AP kinetic to objects and doesn't one shot them crylaughing

ashen crown
#

Infinite Terrain Glitch

#

I like the ghost- the longer I look at it the funnier it gets

#

One thing that did occur to me about Superimpose Firmament however- if the ghost is bonded to a size 2 or 4 character the exact footprint of the burst area becomes slightly awkward. Regardless of that however, depending on why you're using Superimpose Firmament being bonded with a larger character is either better or worse.

I look forward to seeing how a Superimpose Firmament Ghost + a Goliath combo in that case

#

It also just occurred to me- Paradox state gives both the ghost and its bonded character 1 heat upon activation, and then if it rolls high enough they both gain another heat. Like NOAH

#

(which like. Makes sense that's not a big thing)

vagrant grotto
#

"However, if a hostile tech
action affects either bonded character, the other
character also suffers the action’s effects."

#

Paradox State is not hostile

ashen crown
#

Oh hostile I forgot!

vagrant grotto
#

I made sure it was hostile-only because of weird allied tech shit

ashen crown
#

Would you say giving Ghosts SpecOp w/ Serrated Machetes would detract from Playtest Data? Active Camo would only really be useful for on demand crits or when they get caught without a host, but it does give them more action econ + a chance to test out Ghost w/ Weapons

#

I might just give it to them tbh

placid glacier
#

Flavor wise would the Ghost work with the ||Bicham alliance|| from wallflower?

vagrant grotto
vagrant grotto
sudden cosmos
#

I'm incredibly stuck at the moment. Who makes for good NPC buddies for the opfor when the big bad is an ultra capacitor

vagrant grotto
#

folks who love Overshield and screening for artillery

sudden cosmos
#

My gut says berserkers but also the party has had their fill of those lately

vagrant grotto
#

break out the defenders

#

Mesmerists, Knights, Sentinels

sudden cosmos
#

I could probably swing capacitor+knight

ashen crown
#

Grunts, Engineers, and Occultists

#

Goliath would be particularly annoying (positive)

#

As would Anchor

sudden cosmos
#

Engineer is another good one

ashen crown
vagrant grotto
#

Goliath would be neat yeah

#

Engineer... the Artillery Rearguard...

ashen crown
#

Quickening Bolt also works for those speed 3’s (or speed 2’s if you’re not using Brisk)

#

Capacitor can Overshield over Barricade Cubes so Barricade is a decent option

opaque crescent
#

I'm planning to run a PPG playtest in the upcoming weeks, mainly as a excuse to try out all the new toys I've spent the last few days (and upcoming weeks) coding.

#

A surprising amount of Brigand's stuff was easy to implement

#

and then there's rescind

#

I'm not doing rescind

vagrant grotto
#

it's fine, it's just "Impaired + Slowed until you decide to drop your gear"

#

like, doesn't need fancy shmancy

opaque crescent
#

but fancy schmancy is why I exist

#

especially at 3am while I can't sleep because of a cold

#

💡

opaque crescent
#

ok that wasn't that bad actually

#

I had it in my head that it was on a save

umbral sluice
#

the reason Rescind is a full action to clear is because Union tech support puts you on hold

vagrant grotto
#

Thinking of the following adjustments to Anchor:

  1. knockback only on Gravity Cannon
  2. Newtonian amplifier changes to Burst 2 cylinder, Quick Action (still recharge 6)
  3. Magnetic Reversal applies to Melee attacks instead of ranged
#

These would solidify Anchor as a Rearguard with a bunch of “keepaway or be punished” tools

#

And like, while Attract/Repulse was cute, I don’t think it’s particularly useful

#

I think I’m finally hitting that moment of clarity I’ve been hoping to hit for Anchor

ashen crown
#
  1. That would make sense, I don’t really see why an Anchor would want people closer to it… I mean I tried to pull that last combat but it generally felt kinda awkward anyway.
  2. I was thinking about that yeah
  3. Odd but I’m curious.
#

Would Newtonian Amplifier have friendly fire?

vagrant grotto
#

Attract/repulse was some early design stuff, it seemed cool at the time™

Now I think I’ll just have it slow folks if it knocks em into stuff instead of outright proning

#

And amplifier probably shouldn’t

#

For mag reversal: It complements the catch 22

ashen crown
#

Prone seems very natural, so changing it to slow seems odd

vagrant grotto
ashen crown
#

Ohhhh it’s to remove the save

#

Okay that I can get behind

vagrant grotto
#

And because I think Torrent explores the Knockback Cone design space in a much more interesting way

ashen crown
#

I suppose it also narrows the scope of the conditions the anchor can apply at base- if an Anchor got someone in the lodestone area and knocked them prone that’d be Rough

#

Also being able to apply slow without necessarily keeping enemies in the Lodestone area is something I would’ve appreciated in my last combat

#

Prone has a comparable debuff, but it’s almost the polar opposite of slow tbh

vagrant grotto
#

Tbh maybe I’d do impaired instead…

ashen crown
#

See idk about that, it feels weird and out of the mechanical character of the Anchor

#

Impair is a very common controller condition too- not enough slow

vagrant grotto
#

Getting concussed is a very quick way to impair yourself

ashen crown
#

It’s definitely befitting in universe, look at Caliban, I just think more slow is a good thing

#

But impair probably fits better as a defender since Impair = harder time hitting people

#

As a controller I like slow better tho

vagrant grotto
#

Slow fits the Rearguard Controller theme tbf

#

Mulling it over anyway

#

All I know is Save Vs Prone is tired at this point

ashen crown
#

Being restricted to just Knockback + removing the save for the condition will certainly reduce the skill floor when it comes to anchor at least

#

Which has been my biggest issue with the class thus far

ashen crown
vagrant grotto
#

It’s still Line or Cone

ashen crown
#

Then I 100% agree with these simplifications- old Anchor required the GM to make 2 targeting decisions before even attacking and then that leads up to potentially 2 separate rolls per target. That was, for me at least, inconvenient.

#

I suppose I liked the ranged element of Magnetic Reversal because it allowed the Anchor to extend its reach as a back liner and permit it to have some leniency with Lodestone, but I suppose Melee works better in that regard since it engages those in the middle of the map or who have infiltrated the back line vs specifically targeting artillery and CQB

vagrant grotto
#

Which made sense, it’s anti-ranged when a large area around it won’t actually receive a ranged attack

ashen crown
#

Yeah that’s fair

#

It’s a direct anti-synergy

vagrant grotto
# 
Gravity Cannon
Heavy Cannon, Arcing, Knockback 3, +1/+2/+3, +1 Accuracy [Cone 5 or Line 8][3/4/5 Explosive]
If this weapon’s KNOCKBACK causes a target to collide with an obstruction or mech, they stop moving and become IMPAIRED until the end of their next turn.
#

reworking Gravity Cannon

#

also thinking about Torrent's on-collision save vs. prone effect

#

and whether it's better to remove the save or not

#

Also, regarding Spatial Rend: I'm capping the damage to 8 and heat to 4

#

at least to start

#

don't @ me, I'm rethinking it

#

don't fucking do it

muted blaze
#

:>

#

You claim to say "Don't @ me", but you have a [ 🔔 ] in your name... Curious

vagrant grotto
#

specific beats general

muted blaze
#

So replies with notificationsa re fine

vagrant grotto
#

we're not rules-litigating my notifications

#

the fact that the Anomaly basically gets a damage boost on involuntary movement is the big issue here for Spatial Rend, to the point that I may rip out the "drag down" and just graft in Shredded and Impaired

#

like I said, I'm thinking about it

#

there's a bunch of levers I can pull and shit I can rewrite. I am not accepting suggestions at this time

muted blaze
#

If someones moved they immediately explode

#

The player, not the character

#

Target all parts of the character sheet, includinggg the person holding it

vagrant grotto
#

I'll remember this for Saturday

ashen crown
vagrant grotto
#

I'm aware, and we're not discussing Spatial Rend further

vagrant grotto
#

and how do we feel about removing the Hull Save on Undertow so it Just Works™

muted blaze
#

I'm not familiar with the Anchor so can't really comment

vagrant grotto
#

I shouldn’t be surprised, I think it’s the weakest NPC design in the project at the moment

granite saddle
#

Biggest issue I see with it is that Slowed fits better flavor-wise but Impaired fits better mechanics-wise

muted blaze
#

WHat other NPC abilities do prone on hit or prone without save?

#

I see it comparable to the grav cannon... Or similar

ashen crown
#

As a completely vibes related note I’m a little surprised the Anchor doesn’t have a jam optional since. Magnets. This isn’t a balancing thing this is just vibes.

umbral sluice
#

wait how would magnets jam

vagrant grotto
#

Players riot when there’s a Jam so I don’t know

umbral sluice
#

also true, players despise hornets

vagrant grotto
#

I’d probably do a close range EMP effect and replace Newtonian amplifier for that

granite saddle
vagrant grotto
ashen crown
#

I understand why the Anchor doesn’t jam mechanically tbh, it’d be very annoying

vagrant grotto
#

Also: See Hornet stinger

#

I’m okay with it on Tectonic Wave because it’s an Ultra of all things

ashen crown
#

There’s less overhead in the torrent’s case

granite saddle
# vagrant grotto On attack

So now Ultra Anchors have access to Deterministic Impaired you can do nothing about.
Maybe it's fine because it's an Ultra ? I'll let you decide.

vagrant grotto
granite saddle
#

Yeah, and it's very accurate

#

Not counting large aoe meaning it'll happen to at least one guy, probably

ashen crown
#

I will say giving it an AOE weapon with inherent accuracy while also making it size 3 (equaling to being able to look over terrain easily) is certainly a bit concerning, but the spiteful part of my GM brain is thinking “my anchors have never had the opportunity to attack without net totaling to at least 1 difficulty”

#

The theory and experience are conflicting basically

#

You could maybe lower the Gravity Cannon to hit scaling- +0/1/2 style or something. But that’s only if it’s a concern

muted blaze
#

" (equaling to being able to look over terrain easily)" - It's arcing so it doesn't really matter too much

ashen crown
ashen crown
vagrant grotto
#

yeah idk. I'm more okay with attack + save on Napalm's STC because it's a superheavy and a line; both its actions are spoken for when I use it

#

i think the big question for Torrent is "how often does it actually succeed in knocking things into terrain, especially en masse with Cone 3 and just Knockback 3"

#

if the answer is "often" then the save stays

#

Here's a question: If I cut a single system from Brigand, which one would be missed the least

#

Because I'm thinking of adding this:

Rending Claws
System, Recharge 6+, Full Action
The Brigand forces an adjacent character to make a HULL save. On a success, the target is Impaired until the end of their next turn. On failure, the target suffers an effect depending on its tag:
•    If the target is a mech, vehicle, or ship, on a failed save the target’s cockpit is ripped open, allowing its pilot or crew to be targeted and affected by outside sources.
•    If the target is a pilot or biological, they are GRAPPLED by the Brigand. A mounted character is forced to immediately exit their mech, vehicle, or ship as though DISMOUNTING.
ashen crown
#

Hm. There’s no end duration stated for the first part

vagrant grotto
#

"the target can seal the cockpit as a full action"

ashen crown
#

In any case i’d say Lockout- rescind is basically that but more interesting imo

#

Either that or Commandeer, because the Occultist exists

vagrant grotto
#

commandeer stays

#

Lockout is the weakest one though, I agree

ashen crown
#

I will say idk about Rending Claws- I do think Prying Claws is simpler but more grounded in Lancer’s mechanics, however it’s not my supplement lol

vagrant grotto
#

Prying claws is nice but I think it runs into the "D&D Petrification" issue where it's just a save or suck

#

I like Rending Claws because it offers a risk vs. reward choice

#

alright I rejiggered the layout so everything's staying at the moment lol

vagrant grotto
#

I think the Prototype's feature "I Know Nothing, For Your Information" is a little too cute so I'm gonna cut it

ashen crown
#

Which one was that again?

vagrant grotto
#

reverse "By the Way I Know Everything"

#

the NPC can crit and it can trade a portion of its flat damage for damage dice

ashen crown
#

Ah okay

muted blaze
#

It's fun but I don't think much is being lost from it

vagrant grotto
#

2 page spread fits

#

gotta do flavor but otherwise yeah

umbral sluice
#

xnopyt potato? is that a tom scott reference

vagrant grotto
#

yes

umbral sluice
#

awesome

#

also love doomscroll

#

finally players will suffer orator 1

muted blaze
#

As I mentioned before and I still love

#

Harrison armoury mechs are immune to propaganda

#

Superior by design

granite saddle
#

Consume smaller doses of propaganda to bulld up an immunity to larger ones

muted blaze
#

Their propaganda is wrong

#

Mine is better

vagrant grotto
#

aight Prototype is in the 1.14 branch of the LCP

#

fuck gotta do the flavor text

ashen crown
#

Isn’t that the most fun part?

vagrant grotto
#

sometimes it's hard to hit the right chord

#

but I think I found it

# 
Every pattern group was once a prototype: Untested, unproven, unpredictable. Each a survivor of a thousand-thousand iterations, budding from a single “what if?” Not every idea has merit. Countless lie stillborn on the cutting room floor. But without the courage to ask that simple question, what hope is there for changing the status quo?
#

alright, that's enough work for v1.14 for now

#

I'll have more to do after today's playtest

opaque crescent
#

"So this is it, huh? This is the Prototype Pattern Group?"

sudden cosmos
#

Volley Module Capacitor is rude

#

that's my thoughts so far

#

obviously I will give more details later

vagrant grotto
#

color me concerned lol

sudden cosmos
#

Thunderfall doesn't seem to have the non-drone clause that the regular attack has. Is that intentional?

vagrant grotto
sudden cosmos
#

Okay, good. That interaction was getting somewhat out of control.

placid glacier
vagrant grotto
placid glacier
#

👍

#

I mean in actually gonna be on the player side for once lol

#

I'm just giving the encounter to my gf for her to run

sudden cosmos
#

General thoughts on ultra capacitor:

-Thunderfall, even at 6 recharge, feels overtuned. The damage and the lock-on and the shield makes it a little too much to juggle, especially since the operator will inherently have multiple activations to get the shot at recharging it (even with the modded recharge) because using this ability means it will be an ultra

-the additional HP from being an ultra made it quite tanky. the only reason players were able to peel a structure off of it was a brutal crit dealing 22 damage, which only structured it once

General thoughts on the knight:

-players felt generally okay with it and found it interesting to work around

-both players and I are wondering why it's got the implicit lock-on for the attack AND the shredded when attacking a compelled duel target. Personally, I think the unconditional shred on an QA (though it does need to hit, to be fair) is a bit pushed

vagrant grotto
#

Scout exists with Marker rifle, so I think it's fine

sudden cosmos
#

I don't think those are comparable but I'll respond to that after finishing w/ giving combat details

#

Sitrep: Special TDM (kill the capacitor to instantly win)

PCs

  • Death's Head backline support/gunner
  • Melee Diver Lich
  • TCB forced movement Orchis

OpFor

  • Ultra Capacitor ( Deflecting Shot, Cyclic Dischgarge, Purifying Lightning + Volley Module, Thunderfall)
  • Veteran Knight (Mighty Throw, Hero's Banner (no feedback because it was irrelevant))
  • 2x Rebake Cata (Electrified Lasso, Capacitor Discharge) [both deployed as reinforcements]
  • 1x Rebake Hornet (Hold/Lock Javlins, Slingshot) [deployed as reinforcement]
  • 1x Rebake Engineer (Deployable Fortifications, Mobile Turrets) [deployed as reinforcement]
sudden cosmos
#

"hat on a hat" as one player called it.

#

"It does this. And it does this. And it does this. Also 7 damage."

vagrant grotto
#

aight yeah I see what you mean

ashen crown
#

The Greatsword also has baseline accuracy

vagrant grotto
ashen crown
#

And threat 2

#

So that’s like. 5 tags worth of things

vagrant grotto
#

Marker rifle has 15 range and +1 acc and +2/4/6 and Smart if we're bean counting here

ashen crown
#

I haven’t used it so this isn’t solid feedback I’m just counting :P

vagrant grotto
#

like I get where you're coming from on bespoke effects

ashen crown
#

The marker rifle also deals 0 damage tho

#

So if we are going purely off “bean counting” the Greatsword does have a higher budget than Marker Rifle while existing on a tankier NPC

#

Ofc nothing exists in a vacuum so like. Yeah

vagrant grotto
#

I'm budgeting more because

  1. it's a melee weapon
  2. part of it is gated on Compelled duel, restricting targeting even further
#

Like I can see moving Knockback onto Sweeping Blows even

#

or the Lock On

#

sweeping blows doesn't do much otherwise

ashen crown
#

I will say when it comes to the Scout, Marker Rifle as a part of the base kit is like most of its budget. It has rebound pulse + camo field, but the former is niche and the latter is recharge with additional drawbacks (immobilize mainly, which is significant on a fast NPC like a scout). [EDIT: Forgot about sight, it also has that, idk where that falls in the budget]

Meanwhile the Knight has Compelled Duel, which imparts no restrictions on the Knight, and Templar’s Shield, which does have a heat cost and a prerequisite but I don’t think that’s niche nor punishing imo.

sudden cosmos
#

KB on sweeping blow is flavorfully compelling

ashen crown
#

So while the Greatsword on its own is on par with Marker Rifle in terms of budget it doesn’t really account for the budget of the rest of the NPC, at least from my perspective

placid glacier
#

hm... trying to think what to pair with an ultra ghost

ashen crown
#

Goliath or Demolisher

vagrant grotto
ashen crown
#

Cause you can’t knock around the Demo/Goliath easily, and they’ll be extra tanky if you use Coherent Entanglement

placid glacier
ashen crown
#

You can probably get away with just having one of them w/o a template on the field, but that does open a risk of the Big Guy dying before the Ghost gets a turn

placid glacier
#

I'll have it templated too I think

ashen crown
#

Still, prolly a good idea to get more NPCs in the mix

placid glacier
#

cus this is gonna be an ll6 oneshot

#

and a holdout at that so I can inflate the numbers a bit

ashen crown
#

I wouldn’t have a backup Demo/Goliath tho, that sounds like a great way to make people upset in a bad way

#

Plus it could be a good opportunity to see how an Ultra Ghost performs when migrating from Host to Host

placid glacier
#

would it be too mean to give the ghost siege shield?

ashen crown
#

If this is rebake ultra it’ll lose its +5 HP, go for it

#

(Tho idk if the Ghost wanted to be tested with the +5 HP)

#

Also like. Idk what Siege Shield will really do for it exactly

placid glacier
#

I mean fair

#

I don't have a solid idea on what to do for the ultra past coherent

#

and I don't wanna overload the gm with features on this already weird npc

ashen crown
#

I’d figure out the full OpFor + Sitrep first and then start picking optionals personally

#

That way you can tailor things to the context

#

But that’s just kinda how I make encounters, some folks do things the other way around

placid glacier
#

thats fair- yeah I usually do the other way around

ashen crown
#

You said it’d be a holdout right? I’d make its big guy a Demolisher as that’ll hold the point a lot stronger, tho a Goliath is much harder to move and may be harder to kill

placid glacier
#

I was gonna go with demo yeah

ashen crown
#

I’d give it one more Ghost optional and no more if the goal is to keep things simple

#

If you wanna stress test the Demolisher part of things, Superimpose Firmament could be scary, even if it makes the Ghost more vulnerable.

Meanwhile if you wanna stress test coherent entanglement, Wavefunction Collapse could also be scary

#

Are you using rebake or core?

placid glacier
#

rebake

ashen crown
#

since the Ghost is a big complex NPC, I’d probably stick to Core Rebake NPCs in order to keep things simple

#

In terms of supporting the Ghost

placid glacier
#

yeah

ashen crown
#

I’d have Grunt Artillery pad out the reinforcements, to have a stable trickle of backliners

placid glacier
#

actually question- I'll explictly not exploit this when I'm player to stress tess this but

if the target gets frag sigged (or gets slow applied another way via tech action) would this turn off the ghost "move with the target thing" as well?

image.png
ashen crown
#

I wouldn’t say so instinctively, like how a grapple wouldn’t shut it down, but I genuinely have no idea

placid glacier
#

@vagrant grotto

ashen crown
placid glacier
#

the gm I'll be giving this encounter too is at least familiar with PPG already so simpler npcs would be on the table

#

I might give her a napalm

ashen crown
#

In terms of Strikers, Berserker, Breacher, and Engineer are good ones and will likely benefit a good amount from a Ghost if they ever end up getting bonded. A Cataphract will just end up getting its grapples broken whenever it goes intangible, so I wouldn’t recommend that.

vagrant grotto
placid glacier
#

gotcha 👍

vagrant grotto
#

the Ghost's movement isn't voluntary here

ashen crown
#

Assassin could also be fun if you give it some forced movement

placid glacier
#

A couple assassins to clear the point could work yeah

ashen crown
#

You should probably max out at 5 different NPC classes across the Sitrep as a whole, + one class of grunt as bonus reinforces to keep up the pressure

#

Ghost is Support/ally Defender and the Demo is a Point Defender, so you’re covered in terms of durability. Whatever strikers you have will either be a mobile harrier or a point holder. You’ll prolly have an artillery backliner.

All you really need now is a controller- if you wanna hit all bases, which you don’t have to

#

(I forget the Valk NPC role classifications :P)

placid glacier
#

only 3 players so I'll put most in reserve for the gm to put out at her discretion

ashen crown
#

You’ve probably hit all bases so you don’t really need an extra NPC unless you want one

#

… well actually the OpFor of Ghost, Demolisher, Napalm, and Assassins is pretty damage forward so a non-damage focused NPC would probably be good

#

Of any kind really

placid glacier
#

rethought out assassin

ashen crown
#

You also don’t technically need Artillery grunts too- any grunt will do

placid glacier
#

thinking initial deployment would be

Ultra Ghost
Vet Demo
1-2 (potentially?) Engineers

Reserve:

Grunt arty
Napalm(?)
maybe seeder?
or hives

#

(I am also realizing with me taking a hydra or drone commander gilg into this mission the board is gonna look disgusting at the end lmao)

ashen crown
#

I like the idea of Seeder, but a Hive may consolidate gimmicks if the Napalm is there + put more pressure on the OZ

ashen crown
placid glacier
#

you're so right actually

ashen crown
#

What kinda map you thinking btw?

placid glacier
#

uuh I was gonna give my gm the map that I used for Roadblock in WF

#

this bridge one I found

ashen crown
#

Is the GM gonna decide where the OZ is or do you know where it is?

placid glacier
#

I'll leave it to her later but it'll probably be on the left bridge end

ashen crown
#

I’d keep some engineers in reserves too, just in case

placid glacier
#

yeah I'll lock in hives and napalm to consolidate gimmick

ashen crown
#

If you end up giving the Hive Solipsis Swarm it’ll be a potent objective holder, so I recommend doing that. As is the only strong objective holder is the Demolisher- Engineers can fortify an objective but they’re not that strong when it comes to taking them

placid glacier
ashen crown
#

Either that or Driving Swarm/Harrier Maniple

#

That Hive will be doing a lot of work so it looks like a 2 optionals hive to me

#

The OpFor also looks pretty slow to me without any mobility boosters, and they’re gonna be walking a long distance- do you wanna consider swapping in a mobility booster NPC? Maybe pushing for an extra class to the Sitrep?

placid glacier
#

I was thinking that the opfor may be a bit slow for the map

ashen crown
#

Support Grunts woudl act as movement boosters

#

And striker grunts would advance a lot faster

#

I do think the Command Override Hive + Engineers is a funny combo but it could be worth considering swapping out the Engineers for a faster striker

placid glacier
#

could give commander to something

ashen crown
#

Or that

#

I’m a big fan of Commander Demolisher personally

placid glacier
#

Vet Commander Demo

ashen crown
#

Nevermind actually

#

With the ghost that sounds like a bad idea

placid glacier
#

was thinking Commander on an engi

ashen crown
#

That will probably be a better idea

#

Let it live longer so the Hive can come in and commander override its drones

placid glacier
#

I'll have extra engi's in reserve

ashen crown
#

And it’ll wanna stay out of the OZ so it can harry with drones and beckon PCs out

placid glacier
#

and do maybe a 2x 2x split of Arty and Support grunts

placid glacier
placid glacier
# 
Sitrep: Holdout

OPFOR:
1x Ultra Ghost [The Fifth] - Wavefunction Collapse, Coherent Entanglement, Suppression Pulse
1x Veteran Demolisher [Come And Take It] - Seismic Destroyer, Heavy Tread [Vet]
1x Commander Engineer [Frontier Justice] -  Repurpose, Quick March
1x Hive - Command Override, Harrier Maniple 

Reinforcements:
1x Hive - Command Override, Harrier Maniple
1x Engineer - Repurpose
1x Napalm - Incendiary Grenade
2x Grunt Support
2x Grunt Artillery```

GM's Eyes Only - Gameplan:

The *Ghost* should pair with the *Demolisher*, this scary combo being the point of the spear for this OpFor. 

The *Engineer* will provide midrange support with Quick March and Turret drones for the Hive to take advantage of and create areas of deterrence for the players. Should the *Demolisher* be defeated, this Engineer will be the primary fallback option for the Ghost to latch on to.

The *Hives* should follow after the *Demolisher* to flush players off the point and out of cover using their quick techs, then to potentially take and defend the holdout point.

The *Napalm* is another NPC oriented for area denial, with it's long range burning weapon. Should it be able to close the distance to the point, incendiary grenade is another incredibly potent tool to flush players out of cover.

The *Grunts* are intended for extended pressure on the players, with the *Supports* providing more off turn movement for the OpFor and the *Artillery* providing ranged fire support and lock on application.
ashen crown
# placid glacier ```War Games: Holdout 1 Sitrep: Holdout OPFOR: 1x Ultra Ghost [The Fifth] - Wav...

One thing to keep in mind about the Ghost- unless it makes itself extremely vulnerable, it cannot contest the objective zone (because it’s intangible). This means it’s number 1 priority is keep whoever it’s bonded to alive so they can contest the objective zone for it. This also means that if it’s the last round of the Sitrep and it’s still alive, it should makes its last action un-bonding so it can contribute to the Sitrep.

placid glacier
#

👍 I'll add that to the for gms eyes only section

ashen crown
#

Are there any core power restrictions out of curiosity?

placid glacier
#

prob not

#

but I do have a line up

Gilg (me)
Caliban
Pesilat

sudden cosmos
#

@vagrant grotto (this can wait for when you're done) what was your rationale for the damage Thunderfall does?

vagrant grotto
#

carve the damage down in favor of granting Overshield

ashen crown
#

Maybe making it a dedicated full action rather than a Free Action that triggers off already making an attack would be better

#

On par with Harbinger Rockets from Rebake Ultra

#

I understand maybe wanting it to be distinct, but a big line that also helps allies feels like. Pretty legally distinct

sudden cosmos
#

If I'm reading the history correctly, it looks like it used to be a full action vet ability, which solves some problems that I'm thinking of in hindsight

ashen crown
#

Atlas Missiles is a full action too- being a free action that pairs along with an attack is genuinely a bit much tbh

sudden cosmos
#

Since it's not quoting emperor core power, I think you could genuinely get away with cutting its baseline damage in half and it'd still be pretty spicy

vagrant grotto
#

aight noted

granite saddle
#

Is it that easy to get it to do its damage ? Like genuine question, I only ever got to try it in a very scuffed game so I don't really know

sudden cosmos
#

In the two instances I got with it, yes

granite saddle
#

end of next round always felt like, harsh but aight, maybe it shakes out different when it's an actual game

sudden cosmos
#

grappling and dragging a PC into it on the round it's set to pop is very easy with how much area it covers