#Prototype Pattern Groups

1 messages · Page 17 of 1

ashen crown
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Would adding a 1/scene limit on Reactor Stabilizer ruin the fun?

vagrant grotto
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I don’t think it’s worth 1/scene

ashen crown
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W/o 1 stress for all it would inherently require you to burn repairs on stress, tru

vagrant grotto
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Like I’m not convinced it’s a problem

ashen crown
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Yeah fair fair

vagrant grotto
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It just reduces risk, it doesn’t give extra action economy like the rest of Sherman’s license

ashen crown
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W/ Valk house rules stuff like Overcharge got knocked down sufficient enough pegs to keep it from getting broken, and w/o Valk House Rules you’re still gonna be rolling stress checks and hemorrhaging repairs

dapper goblet
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So overkill is actually many packets of heat 1

vagrant grotto
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Not under my house rules

dapper goblet
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Ah just ctrl f-ed overkill and didn't see it

vagrant grotto
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It’s in PPG

dapper goblet
vagrant grotto
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I know there’s a weird welding here yeah sorry lol

dapper goblet
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"Theres not that many house rules"

looks inside

vagrant grotto
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Overkill is opt in and all the heat is consolidated

ashen crown
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It’s honestly probably one tier below Deep Well Heat Sink, new Reactor Stabilizer

dapper goblet
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I dunno what the end to this bit is but

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Opt in is cool but why consolidate? So resistance works?

vagrant grotto
dapper goblet
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Also any player side stuff I should push on?

vagrant grotto
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Zheng got changed

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Goblin is facing serious changes

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Uhhh not sure what else

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Jäger Kunsts

dapper goblet
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The Jagers Kunst. Its like attorneys general /s

vagrant grotto
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Maria’s GMS mods and CBs that I imported

granite saddle
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Those are funny because I went from "intrusion bad, coodination almost good" to "intrusion good, coordination pretty meh" in like 10 minutes

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I'll be honest, to me it's more a "surprised you haven't gunned for the Drill already" angle

ashen crown
umbral sluice
ashen crown
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ah okay

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I'm rusty on those I need to reread them

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... actually I don't know where to find those, I don't think I've read them before actually

umbral sluice
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(also in Valk's homebrew github thingy)

ashen crown
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Ah I was checking crisis catalog lol

ashen crown
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INtrusion is extremely good tho

granite saddle
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Hmmm.
Looking at !V!-JK1 feeling underwhelming to me with it being 2SP and 1 heat and conditional on terrain, and had this idea :
Maybe giving it some sort of terrain or climbing penalty ignore could help with the Titanfall pilot/parkour fantasy while still not being such a pain ?
I don't think it would qualify as stepping on other system's toes between its having a cost and conditional nature, bulwark and mag clamps still have a use-case even on JK1 havers.

vagrant grotto
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you want the protocol that lets you disengage as a free action to do more?

granite saddle
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Well, not all the time. If you don't start your turn next to the terrain, you still eat shit.

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Maybe skill issue, maybe a controller doing its job.

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Maybe it's fine in-game, but I wanted to get this out my brain if only to know where to find it again if I'm looking for it sometime

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Actually yeah, did the !V!Atlas you had bring this too ?

steel apex
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Once again going to suggest, from the peanut gallery, that Jaeger Kunst 1 should be an Atlas trait, not a system

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you'd get SO much more budget mileage out of that, AND a complete end-run around people dipping it

vagrant grotto
steel apex
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as much as I truly love all the Kutuzov/Jaeger Kunst 1 builds people have done, I think that does sort of exemplify the issue with it as a system

muted blaze
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Kutuzov/Jaeger Kunst 1 builds?

steel apex
muted blaze
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Colour me intrigued

steel apex
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search for that and you'll find it a bunch

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it uses Explosive Vents and JK1

granite saddle
granite saddle
# vagrant grotto they did not

Right, so neither of us know if needs buffs or if it's good.
Reactor stab Combat drill, Atlas and JK1, I'm starting to have more stuff to test than games to test them in ! That was always the case.

muted blaze
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It's nice having reactor stabiliser being actually useful

granite saddle
granite saddle
muted blaze
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I can see it being useful but it's in a HA licence and you're still vulnerable af afterwards

granite saddle
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I mean yeah, that's how it's not entirely broken

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and it also, conveniently, gives some utility to Stasis shielding.

ashen crown
muted blaze
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I think it would be ridiculously OP with reggular overchargge

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It works fine with overcharge reroll

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With regular overcharge it can make any frame suffer no consequences from OCloopingg

ashen crown
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I do think it should be considered how the JK1 rework synergizes with the revised Atlas so the frame + system should remain synergistic. The new Atlas is more Jockey focused and as such starting movements next to terrain is more unpredictable so it’s not as synergistic as it is with licenses like, idk, Kobold

muted blaze
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Now I think of it reactor stabiliser is actually really good...

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It is 3SP tho

ashen crown
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It's better w/ 1 reactor stress 4 all but still good w/o it if you can afford the repair tax + pair with Stasis Shielding

muted blaze
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It doesn't work without 1 stress for all

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Unless you're talking about the CRB version?

vagrant grotto
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the only change I made is Jager Dodge is now minimum 1 space

granite saddle
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yup saw that one

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good btw, slowed and immob (and grapples) should have Atlases run like the frail little weaklings they are.

granite saddle
ashen crown
opaque crescent
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heat isn't damage

ashen crown
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Okay so !V! Reactor Stabilizer doesn’t inherently work with CRB stress but I do think it’s easy to just reword it and have it negate overflow heat

upbeat obsidian
steel apex
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beats me, not my pig, not my farm

upbeat obsidian
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Maybe I’ll just think about it

vagrant grotto
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yeah IDK I personally just want to make JK1 a "be more slippery" tool that I'm okay with being on several builds

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I think my current Atlas Frame Rework is in a good spot to not need JK1 baked in, unless I tore out Final Hunt for it or something

upbeat obsidian
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Yeah that’s fair I’m just thinking

steel apex
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I sometimes post takes in here because this is the closest to a "talk about rebaking PC side stuff" thread

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posting stuff like that out in general chat runs the risk of getting people wanting to issue even hotter takes and it's usually not worth it

upbeat obsidian
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Valk quicklythrow me out so I can say I’m going to make my own atlas with blackjack and hookers

vagrant grotto
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and I don't have a better place for it lol

upbeat obsidian
vagrant grotto
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Loredude I exhort you to open up a new notebook page and start writing some ideas

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I have Talentless Hack but that's for a specific thing

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my personal houserules tend to bleed with PPG though

upbeat obsidian
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I shall do so

vagrant grotto
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but I have zero desire to publish my personal house rules so they don't get their own thread 🤷

upbeat obsidian
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I swore you had a thread for like something like that

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Maybe I was thinking of talentless hack thread

placid glacier
vagrant grotto
arctic bloom
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Absolutely adore your fix to Kobold Forge Clamp.

vagrant grotto
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Thank you! Hoping to push out a proper release tonight

umbral sluice
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oh new patch dropped? hell yeah

vagrant grotto
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Not yet, but soon

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And it’s for my house rules not PPG

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PPG I’m still collecting feedback before putting pen to paper

umbral sluice
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I see I see

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still, i do like what you've done with OSIRIS, can't wait to see how it plays

vagrant grotto
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Same same, same for Goblin stuff

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Still need to hammer out goblin frame changes but that may be its own beast

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I may tweak its base stats slightly to take power out of Agility and into Repair Cap, and I’m definitely changing Reactive Code + Liturgicode

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And moving some of that power into Symbiosis instead

dapper goblet
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I see why youd axe liturgicode but I actually really like rattlesnake effects like reactive code

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Sure it doesnt go off much but it looms large

granite saddle
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I'd just be careful about entirely axing both Liturgicode and reactive code, because that risks robbing the Goblin of its "absolute master of hacking" status in favor of the Chomolungma. The competition is rough is what I'm saying, it needs to still have an edge over the Chomo after this.

ashen crown
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Liturgicode feels redundant tho due to the Goblin already being the only frame w/ +2 tech attack anyway

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~~… okay hang on. This is probably a bad idea, but dumb idea: Put EPC as a Goblin hack.

Or make Goblin a Full Tech Attacker or smthn idk~~
Ignore these as I have now thought about them for more than 10 seconds

vagrant grotto
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“I’m replacing liturgicode” is not “I’m removing liturgicode and then leaving the husk”

ashen crown
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What were the current ideas for Goblin at the moment anyway?

vagrant grotto
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Legit my thoughts for Goblin are:

  • apply Lock on to hostiles who affect them with tech attacks (synergy with !V! Metahook)
  • mirror tech: when someone uses a tech action, you can copy it 1/scene for the same action cost
  • Symbiosis: I don’t know but using the host’s hardware to enhance your own hacking makes sense
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Like Liturgy can be repetitive

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So I figure “subsume their tech into the liturgy”

ashen crown
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I’d personally be a fan of leaning into the Symbiosis, especially because it gives you a way to do point 2 and perhaps 1 too

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However it could also be a case of “making the unique 1/scene less unique”, plus it has some complexity issues

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That, and Metahook becomes even less viable with the licensed frame in comparison

vagrant grotto
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For the mirror tech btw I mean “you can use Witch Blind if you see them use it”

ashen crown
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I feel like if you expanded Reactive Code to trigger off of all tech actions rather than just tech attacks it’d be fair, but that’s also a different direction of intent

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Mainly because it yet again brings up ✨microdecisions ✨

vagrant grotto
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I would have it trigger off of all tech actions in their sensors and line of sight , regardless of target

ashen crown
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The Reactive Code effect is also narrowing down in terms of its effects to be fair

vagrant grotto
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If you are tech attacking while the master is on the field, you have a target on your back

ashen crown
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Kidd being a bigger tech action punisher than Goblin is kinda sad

vagrant grotto
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The point of the Lock On is to dissuade rather than punish

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Because if you punish too hard, the enemy will overwork to avoid the punishment

ashen crown
vagrant grotto
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Yes

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I’d try to meld the two together more

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“You are now a gestalt”

ashen crown
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Would making the Liturgicode Replacement something like an adjacency bonus be something? Goblin doesn’t particularly want to be adjacent to Allies without Symbiosis (that’s why it has Metahook) but it doesn’t necessarily not want it

vagrant grotto
ashen crown
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Gotcha gotcha, was just thinking about how to incorporate the Symbiosis themes into the base frame

vagrant grotto
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I’m thinking about it

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It’s cooking

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But it’s low and slow

ashen crown
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You thinking about limiting the Mimicry to just hostile characters or Allies too?

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(Either way Rebake Mirages are gonna sweat when a goblin is on the field)

vagrant grotto
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Allies seems fine I guess

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Show me where it becomes obscene and ill think again

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Mind goes to Tesseract

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Actually wait

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Symbiosis

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Goblin can use your systems

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And vice versa

umbral sluice
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allies is less egregious than enemies if anything

vagrant grotto
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You take 2 turns per round but can use anything between the two of them

umbral sluice
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like sure there's some powerful tech to copy but nothing you can't do with enough LL already

vagrant grotto
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Enemies worst case is like, Petrify

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Or Blind or Impale Systems

ashen crown
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When it comes to hostiles I’m thinking of weird tech actions, particularly PPG ones like “Paradox State”, where how it interacts with a player frame becomes very questionable

vagrant grotto
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Paradox state straight up doesn’t work

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You need a bond

umbral sluice
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yeah Blind, especially non rebake would be insanely strong imo

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rebake blind is strong but it's still a full tech + save so

ashen crown
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Fair- I guess if you limited the Mimicry to Symbiosis tho it wouldn’t matter

vagrant grotto
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Before the gob can

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And they may hold back!

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It’s a dilemma

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Use the toy and risk it reflected

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Or don’t use it and be neutered

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Dilemma!

ashen crown
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If you tied it together with Reactive Code I’m assuming you store the last Tech Action you Reactive Code-ed until you use the reaction again

vagrant grotto
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Play the mind game vs the goblin

ashen crown
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That’s the easiest way to go about it in my mind

vagrant grotto
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Maybe!

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I like the idea of goblin wanting to get info from watching though

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Hence metahook

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Spread the vision

ashen crown
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Making it separate would start making tracking a bit confusing since now you have 2 separate reactions to an enemies Tech Action as opposed to just one

vagrant grotto
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Neither are reactions

ashen crown
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Oh it just happens okay

opaque crescent
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These ideas do all sound really cool btw, interesting to see if any of it would be ridiculous

placid glacier
muted blaze
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I haven't fully read everything mentioned about the goblin

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But I thought, what if the goblin could do a watered down symbiosis, then core power is buff it's symbiosis

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Like... It just can share a targets space and gain hard cover. Give them systems and sensors. Then core power you share turns whilst mounted and maybe something else?

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Like... Sharing sensors isn't too bad... Taraxacum can just do that

ashen crown
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To be fair the difference between 15 and 20 sensors is somewhat significant

vagrant grotto
# 
    • Goblin Frame
        ○ Reduce Speed from 5 to 4
        ○ Reduce Evasion from 10 to 8
        ○ Increase repair cap from 2 to 4
        ○ Replace Liturgicode with:
            § Liturgicode - Reaction, 1/scene
            § Trigger: A hostile character in line of sight uses a Tech Action.
            § Effect: On your next turn, you may perform the same Tech Action, using the same actions and paying the same costs.
        ○ Replace Reactive Code with:
            § When the Goblin is affected by a hostile character’s tech action, that character gains Lock On.
        ○ Replace Symbiosis with:
You meld with an adjacent allied mech. While melded, you can only move with the melded ally and are otherwise immune to involuntary movement, gain hard cover, and gain Accuracy on all tech attacks as you leverage their systems. Both you and the allied character may Activate each other’s systems and Tech Actions, but the original owner is treated as taking the action. Both of you may use the other’s Sensors, Systems, Tech Attack, Save Target, and E-Defense or their own, whichever is higher. When one of you is affected by a tech action, the other receives the same effect. This melding lasts until the end of the scene or until you end it and move to an adjacent space as a quick action.
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Rough chicken scratch thoughts

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Basically going off my base stats spreadsheet, Goblin actually is in good shape on average. Of course, the average of 0 and 100 is 50, which is the actual issue with the Goblin’s base stats

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So I lean into “this is just a guy in a suit” and dock the Agility stats to Human and Everest average, in return for a base 4 repair cap

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The lock on response serves as a replacement for the innate tech accuracy and keys into Autopod + Hacker 1

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And I’m enamored with the idea of “I can reverse engineer your tech” so that’s what Liturgicode is now

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Symbiosis is up in the air

vagrant grotto
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Another idea is doing a “counterspell capture” where you make a tech attack against the target’s tech attack and if you win their hack fizzles and you get to use it on your next turn

ashen crown
vagrant grotto
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Good for them then lol

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I can simply not use it then

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(Mind games!)

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It’s like counterspell baiting in MTG

ashen crown
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Goblin stealing Follower Count to make one specific guy’s life living hell

vagrant grotto
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you wanna counter the good thing so I run you over with the not so good things until you cave and then I use the good thing

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“Tapped out, blue player? Tsk tsk.”

ashen crown
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Impale Systems also now replaces EPC in a very roundabout not actually replacing EPC kinda way

vagrant grotto
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Yup yup

muted blaze
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I think it's funn because like... It's only as OP as the enemies you face

vagrant grotto
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You, you get it

muted blaze
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Also like, if you get a rebake ultra with one of their cool tech actions you can just do it as well

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Throw out a quick tech blast 2 jam on sys save/impaired on success

vagrant grotto
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Legit the scariest thing I can imagine at the moment is grabbing a brigand or anomaly ability

muted blaze
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😩

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Yeah but that can be funny

vagrant grotto
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Absolutely

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And it’s 1/scene and you gotta commit to it

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Or you lose it

umbral sluice
vagrant grotto
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So a lot of brigand and anomaly stuff actually only really works if you have PC stats anyway

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Reducing SP, having licenses, etc

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That said: Bottom of the Well

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And Blinkspace Expulsion

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Maybe the overcharge one vs a cheeky vet

ashen crown
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Dang none of the funny narrative ones are techs :/

muted blaze
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Hostile sync from grunt controller

umbral sluice
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steal Destabilise from a grunt controller

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we have Balance Control Lockout at home

vagrant grotto
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Commandeer: steal your drone back

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Lockout works

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As does forced obsolescence

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Ooo

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You could Reap the Chaff

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If you’re a drone gobbo

umbral sluice
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that breaks your drones right?

vagrant grotto
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Yup

umbral sluice
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world's most expensive jam

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but it is aoe jam

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i can see something really funny with Utility Drones from Gilgamesh since you can deploy multiple at once

vagrant grotto
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It also depends on like, knowing who you’re fighting ahead of time

umbral sluice
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so... another reason to use faction rosters?

ashen crown
muted blaze
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Use it on follower count

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An anggry goblin is approaching your location

granite saddle
# vagrant grotto ``` • Goblin Frame ○ Reduce Speed from 5 to 4 ○ Reduce Evasi...

This. I like this.
Only two questions :

  • In symbiosis, you take your turns seperately now, right ? Also means you can't move during your turn, which kinda sucks hard, but at least it's got power behind it to make it worth it now.
  • Is it still strong enough that it needs Fragile ? Not saying it isn't, just asking if you took that into account (for the stats or generally the thing's power budget).
vagrant grotto
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Mostly hedging bets on free reactive lock ons and 1/scene tech copy

granite saddle
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Really like how you can justify the "copying" aspect with the flavor of "this thing makes you percieve hacking as a physical assault with swords and shit (instead of the code that it is)" : just copy their moves, dumbass

  • "Oh guys look at me ! When I swing my sword-code like this it does that !"
  • "Bet ?"
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Also just thought of a false idol goblin copying memetic magnetism. Heinous.

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NARCISSUS too ig, could get mean with it

vagrant grotto
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And then cast it from a metahook

granite saddle
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Oh true !

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You don't even have to get in there yourself

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Actually, can you copy a tech through a metahook ?

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God actually considering metahook feels so weird

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Also, mind adding a way to turn it off while you're making changes ?

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Other than having to break LoS to your ally I mean

vagrant grotto
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Yeah maybe I could

vagrant grotto
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tweaked Kobold Terraform a bit:

Your mech extrudes a massive amount of polymer, creating up to 10 SIZE 1 cubes in free spaces within Range 5. The cubes can be stacked up to 5 spaces high, but each cube must share a face with another cube, forming a contiguous surface that grants hard cover and blocks line of sight. Each cube has Evasion 5 and 20 HP.
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I reduce the flexibility of Terraform but allow it to immediately harden to 20 HP and Hard Cover

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make your wall of stone, but make it a wall instead of several rocks

muted blaze
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The hardening part and increasing health just sounds like a hassle NGL

vagrant grotto
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exactly

muted blaze
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Same for kidd subaltern squad

vagrant grotto
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plus like, who is really gonna bum rush the soft wall

muted blaze
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Me

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Breacher

vagrant grotto
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that's 1 dude

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and at T2 it can blow it up anyway

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(or all the time, if using Kai's rebake)

muted blaze
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Uuuuh, bunker buster bombard

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Breacher again with a thermal charge this time

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Your teammate with siege specialist 1

vagrant grotto
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aight, it gets HP 10 then

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but the Hard Cover part stays

muted blaze
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Oh no I wasn't arguing to decrease the HP

vagrant grotto
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too late

muted blaze
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I was arguing that increasing HP over time is silly

vagrant grotto
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yeah no I agree with that

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I'd rather keep it static and immediately grant Hard Cover benefits

muted blaze
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20 off the bat is probably fine, especially as a 1/mission core power

vagrant grotto
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I mean you've pointed out how it's weirdly inconsistent tbh

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it's great T1 but falls off T2

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I'd rather it be consistent

muted blaze
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Well terrain destruction either sends it to the moon or does nothing lmao

vagrant grotto
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plus almost everything else in the game is Size 1 = 10 HP

muted blaze
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Well if the entire space is sharing walls, what if the whole construction has a singular pool of like, 50 or 100

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In my mind that's just so it doesn't get trivialised by a breacher

vagrant grotto
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each section is 10 hp

vagrant grotto
# muted blaze In my mind that's just so it doesn't get trivialised by a breacher 
Your mech extrudes a massive amount of polymer, creating up to 5 SIZE 2 cubes in free spaces within Range 5. The cubes can be stacked up to 5 spaces high, but each cube must be placed adjacent to another cube, forming a contiguous surface that grants hard cover and blocks line of sight. Each cube has Evasion 5 and 20 HP.
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okay hol up

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@muted blaze think of it this way: 10 HP = Seismic Ripper combo

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also I may add a little benefit of the extrusion landing on a character

# 
Your mech extrudes a massive amount of polymer, creating up to 10 SIZE 1 cubes in spaces within Range 5. The cubes can be stacked up to 5 spaces high, but each cube must share a face with another cube, forming a contiguous surface that grants hard cover and blocks line of sight. Each cube has Evasion 5 and 10 HP. If a character occupies a space in which a cube is placed, they must make an Agility save or become trapped in the polymer, becoming Immobilized until they escape with a Hull check as a quick action.
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this might be cooking

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Gets some FLAW_minus value too

ashen crown
ashen crown
vagrant grotto
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you got your foot out, you didn't knock down the rest of it

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that's my vision at least

ashen crown
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Okay so then stating where the enemy goes because as is if you, say, fill all an enemy's spaces with cube they kinda just don't go anywhere and aren't immobilized but still trapped in cube. Saying they get placed in the nearest unoccupied space would probably be handy for less "now what?" kinda scenarios

vagrant grotto
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"or until they escape to the nearest free space with a Hull check as a quick action. "

ashen crown
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I guess that's the best way to go about it yeah

vagrant grotto
muted blaze
granite saddle
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Oh wow, just, straight-up removing the range on Exemplar, damn.
I was thinking you were just gonna go
" 'when [an enemy character] attacks [an allied character] [within range 3]...' is correct as opposed to 'when [a hostile] attacks [an ally within range 3]' ",
this is even stronger

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Also WACP being a single invade is such a logical/lore-accurate way to gently nerf the Chomo I'm almost mad I never thought of it.

vagrant grotto
vagrant grotto
granite saddle
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Only thing it really changes is now you can fall back a space or two if needed (let's be real, you don't have much more than 5 range on an exemplar build)

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Hm. So reactive code is just everyone all the time bit only on tech attacks and not just actions ?

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Eh. Fair I guess.

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Just, no sensors restriction ? The LoS one is implicit at least.

vagrant grotto
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Must’ve missed sensors

granite saddle
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Ah, I see.

vagrant grotto
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I was running fast and loose on this

granite saddle
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Also, liturgicode interrupts too now ? Interesting, does mean your steal has a chance to fail though.

vagrant grotto
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Tired last night lol

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Guess the Goblin should invest in Systems or something

granite saddle
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Or you could just steal a berserker's lock on to be extra spiteful.

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Just, really fuck that guy in particular.

vagrant grotto
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Yeah there’s cases where nobody on the opposing team has dedicated tech actions

granite saddle
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And then at least it's still an interrupt

vagrant grotto
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That’s why I added the utility of countering

granite saddle
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Yeah that

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Everything else looks good yeah

vagrant grotto
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I’m sure I missed something on Symbiosis so be gentle with it lol

granite saddle
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Hold Goblin gentle like hamborger

vagrant grotto
granite saddle
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It's just two turns now so if you want your buddy to move to get you los to some fuck, either they go first or puppet systems puppet systems puppet systems

vagrant grotto
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I think I successfully avoided a “your Monarch can barrage twice per round” situation at least

granite saddle
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Ig instead it's "your Chomo can full tech twice per round" but you're a goblin already so

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That doesn't change much, you probably already have half your systems in common

vagrant grotto
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If the current form proves too dumb I’ll just pull in the metahook changes and add tech accuracy to default Symbiosis

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Sometimes the simple buffs are the best

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I need to ask Reconus about the Balor in her games at some point, I wanna pick her brain about how to rein in the Regen while giving some HASE back to compensate

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My current thought is “Gain Overshield equal to 1+Grit at the start of each turn” but I don’t know

granite saddle
#

Eh
I kinda like having a frame that actually can regen hp. It's a very different feel from just OS somehow.

#

Ig making it conditional is the only way in that case though, so ¯_(ツ)_/¯

vagrant grotto
#

Was thinking about lowering it but adding in-combat scaling to it

#

Tying to Hull was a thought, but what just came to me was “regain hit points equal to Grit each turn, +1 for each missing structure you have”

granite saddle
#

Huh

#

Seems kinda low to me but it depends on the rest of the changes too so I can't really say

#

Maybe it triggers an extra time if you destroy an enemy as you Consume ?

vagrant grotto
#

If there’s one thing I learned from spammable Overshield

#

It’s that “lancer is a small numbers game”

vagrant grotto
granite saddle
#

True...

vagrant grotto
#

But I could see regen only working with the swarm….

#

You’re onto something

granite saddle
#

?
I don't know if I'm onto it as much as you think 'cause I have no clue what you mean by that

#

But sure I'll take credit anyways

vagrant grotto
#

Regain HP equal to damage dealt by Scouring Swarm

granite saddle
#

Oh yeah

vagrant grotto
#

As a quick action, destroy a wreck to regain HP

#

Then you aren’t beholden to “kill the guy”

granite saddle
#

As long as the other stats are properly adjusted, that could work maybe yeah

vagrant grotto
#

This would be justification for bumping its Agility stats, maybe Heat Cap

#

Bring Evasion to at least 8, speed to at least 4 if not 5

granite saddle
#

I think the people would collectively forgive you for the Talentless Hack in exchange for the 4 speed Balor

vagrant grotto
#

I’d give it at least 4 speed regardless let’s be real

#

Love the Balor

#

Like, conceptually

granite saddle
#

That's pretty obvious I'd say, you made a whole NPC about it /j

vagrant grotto
#

Tbf I don’t view the Torrent as a Balor

#

It’s its own fork of the PG if anything

granite saddle
#

I do think bumping speed to 4/5 means it doesn't need the added "consume wrecks for heals" thing, with how much extra speed already helps having multiple folks next to you for scouring

vagrant grotto
#

“The Balor can use a quick action to destroy an adjacent wreckage and immediately Stabilize”

granite saddle
vagrant grotto
#

Okay I feel like the Regen off Swarm was discussed at some point in the past but I like it because it encourages Striker gameplay and dissuades Artillery gameplay

granite saddle
granite saddle
vagrant grotto
#

Balor 2/tortuga 2 for Catalytic Hammer

vagrant grotto
#

The base regen of Balor is 3 per turn when you get it, and it scales with half your Hull

granite saddle
#

But do you store the heals until your turn or just "fuck it, heal on ennemies' turns"

vagrant grotto
#

Naturally turns off when stunned or braced

#

Add a clause that you can’t use it if you’re exposed

granite saddle
#

So just changing scouring swarm itself huh ?

vagrant grotto
#

Yup

#

Merge the two into “Regenerating Swarm”

granite saddle
#

Ig then you really do need extra stabilizes...

vagrant grotto
#

You bring up a good point about reloading though; would it make Cannibal Balor (great unintended pun) obscene

granite saddle
#

Maybe just having it be "clear heat or spend 1 repair and heal to full" is the play then

vagrant grotto
#

Yeah

#

Even “a stabilize” that can’t reload would be interesting

granite saddle
#

It's not a gilg, saying no to conditions is already taken

vagrant grotto
#

Pffft

granite saddle
#

/j but also kinda not

vagrant grotto
#

Pffffffft

#

“Emperor has Overshield, therefore nothing else can” energy

#

Everyone knows that they should’ve stopped with Blackbeard

granite saddle
#

The perfect frame. Who needs more ?

#

But yeah I think saying "stabilize but no reloads" id probably annoying as hell to word. Or just. Super long.

#

You do you, whatever. At the end of the day, I'm not the one making the lcp.

ashen crown
muted blaze
#

The balor "melt your own drones for HP" build

#

I think, in practice the balor is one of the frames for having to balance HASE. It wants hull because that makes it heal more, it wants agility so it can move faster, it wants systems because it's good at tech attacks and can improve that and it wants engineering so it can heal that. Unfortunately I think the balor is a bit on the extreme side however and it's stats could do with a bit of a bump but my mind is a bit worried about bumping them up too much that it can just throw everything into hull without much thought

#

Swarm based regen seems like cool vibes to me, protocol damage everyone then regen that HP. Free stabilises could work but IMO one of the appeals of balor is healing without repcap cost

#

And healing off wrecks I'm not a fan... It's very cool in concept but in play it functions like a vulture... Accept you don't know the opfor, it'll lead to the balor having incredibly swinginess depending on enemy comp. Being ridiculously good against grunts and double budget sitreps for 5 players, and struggling Vs an ultra in a single budget sitreps Vs 3 players

vagrant grotto
#

Different performance based on enemy comp is part and parcel with the game imo

#

but I get it

muted blaze
vagrant grotto
#

yeah no I do get it

#

it was just an idea

muted blaze
#

Yee, no harm in having those

vagrant grotto
#

I just liked it more than the "on kill" idea

#

or "on death"

muted blaze
#

I have ideas a lot and I normally preface them with "dumb idea but"

#

My brain thinks "makes sense to lock regen to fighting peeps in CQB" but also says "yeah but how's it gonna be durable when on approach"

#

But I think you fixed that with "just be faster lol"

vagrant grotto
#

like, lemme show you real quick

muted blaze
#

A simple method could simply be "whilst engaged, you regen"

ashen crown
vagrant grotto
#

these are my HASE calculations relative to Everest

#

negative means "below Everest" and positive means "above everest"

muted blaze
#

Atleast it has positive systems 😩

vagrant grotto
#

the last column is the total across columns S to X

#

I'm not sold on my Mount and Sensors evaluation but I'm pretty okay with my HASE eval

muted blaze
#

What frame has the highest implied points?

vagrant grotto
#

Lancaster

#

followed by Taraxacum

muted blaze
#

Is that because it has 12 billion +hull and everything else is average?

#

Oh wait it's speed

vagrant grotto
#

mostly because Lanny has 10 repcap to the point that 4 of that repcap is basically a "frame trait"

muted blaze
vagrant grotto
#

and also speed yes

muted blaze
#

Does hull calc account for armour?

vagrant grotto
#

yes

#

1 Armor counts as 2 HP

#

following homebrew guidelines

muted blaze
#

Top 3 are the "these 4 legged IPSN frames are ridiculously fast and also just IPSN frames so eat their vegetables too"

vagrant grotto
#

yes, exactly. They have high speed and rep cap which are weighted higher in HASE calcs

#

so, on the other end of things, Balor has low speed and low(er) rep cap

#

and while I get the idea of healing HP without spending repcap impacting the repcap bottom line, my counterargument is: The 4e Vampire Class existed. It did not go over well.

muted blaze
#

Repcap to me makes sense cos regen pays off much more... It basically can get a free 1 repcap per rest...

vagrant grotto
#

but yeah no in that case I would factor it into Trait Power instead of Stat Power

muted blaze
#

But... Then agi and eng

vagrant grotto
#

that's the big thing to take away from this

#

White Witch is "below Everest" in stats but its traits are jacked for Armor. That's the case for a lot of mechs viewed as "solid"

#

the thing is that it's a lot harder to balance traits when you're also bringing stats into the mix

#

like you could make a frame with horrendous HASE but bonkers traits and it would "average out"

muted blaze
#

Everest is 10hp right?

vagrant grotto
#

yes

muted blaze
#

Huh... So 12HP is still only 1 hull

#

:/

vagrant grotto
#

so the reason I'm trying to separate the budget into HASE budget and Trait budget is so there's restraints on how busted one can be at the cost of the other

#

its forcing them to be married, filing (taxes) separately, so to speak

#

The most egregious case of "married, filing jointly" IMO is the Balor, where it's simultaneously incredibly hard to kill but also incredibly vulnerable until it shores up the weaknesses

#

but after it shores up the weaknesses, the strength remains

#

See also: Deck Sweeper Automatic Shotgun, Heavy Machine Gun

muted blaze
#

Balor is weird...

vagrant grotto
#

so if so much of Balor's stat budget went into its HP regen, I wanna dial back the regen to give it some HASE back

muted blaze
#

Narrow the gap

vagrant grotto
#

so, according to my calculations, if you treat Self Perpetuating as a bare minimum of saving 2 Repairs (1 for each rest in between 3 combats in a mission), Balor is still at -2

muted blaze
#

From when I've seen the balor in play it's seemed "balanced"... This is because I've seen it pop off and be impenetrable as much as I've seen it crumple and doom spiral

#

T1

vagrant grotto
#

feast or famine is not a great gameplay setup imo

muted blaze
#

Yeah

vagrant grotto
#

you see it with CRB Demolisher

muted blaze
#

Shutting it off on structure is odd. Made to tank damage, but too much damage and you doom spiral

vagrant grotto
#

Scouring Swarm is the one trait it has that doesn't key into HASE stuff

#

and then it has CP

muted blaze
#

Just realising why the balor doom spirals so frequently when it's regen shuts off. It's crutch is gone and it's only being held up by it's hase budget

vagrant grotto
#

which, as we've established, is hella below average

#

so yeah

#

here, have the link

#

things with "HB" are homebrew

#

Revised Relative HASE is the one I've shared above

muted blaze
#

To me, the core identity of balor is:

  • slow inevitable advance, strike terror into foes with not much they can do type vibes (least important)
  • heal without using repair cap (more important)

I'd honestly be sad to see "free heals on rest" gone as I love the flavour... The regen could do with a nerf I agree with in favour for a hase stat buff

#

"average inevitable advance, strike fear into foes with average amount of what they can do" wouldn't upset me however

vagrant grotto
#

for the "slow" part, imo the reason big things feel slow is because they're bigger

#

if the Balor moves 4 spaces, it's only moved twice its width compared to an Everest

#

like, it only looks slow

#

I think that's the big mistake a lot of Size 2 Speed 3s make

muted blaze
#

Idk if that's it or if I see it as "I see speed as how close you were compared to how close you are"...

#

But idk because I double check because I'm too busy going "haha you're big and slow, only traversing twice your width"

granite saddle
#

So yeah, protocol swarm heal feels good to me (even makes the whip somewhat do something, though I'd still like someone to show me what makes it worth LL3+2SP), but I do concur on the wreck thing feeling... weird somewhat.

vagrant grotto
#

Me, taking the knife to Balor while listening to DOROTHY's "Gun In My Hand" is a mood

muted blaze
#

Damaging enemies in range 3 with smart weapons gives health/overshield...

#

¯_(ツ)_/¯

#

Make the main nexus it gets good... Especially since burn can do more healing

#

I think it makes it unfortunately balor kinda bad until LL3

vagrant grotto
#

Making Nanocomp make sense, hm

#

well fun fact

muted blaze
#

If it gets it's whip and nanocomp at that level

vagrant grotto
#

I move Swarm/Hive to LL1

#

I could add Smart tag to the Scouring Swarm core passive if I wanted to go this way

#

but I think that I'd rather not marry Balor to Smart

muted blaze
#

Pull a tagetes and make it able to make any melee smart? Removes point in nanocomp tho

muted blaze
ashen crown
ashen crown
vagrant grotto
# 
• Balor Frame
    ○ Increase Repair Cap from 4 to 5
    ○ Increase Evasion from 6 to 7
    ○ Increase Speed from 3 to 5
    ○ Increase Heat Cap from 4 to 5
• Regenerator: Remove.
• Scouring Swarm: Revise and change to Core Passive:
    ○ Scouring Swarm - Protocol
    ○ Balor deals 2 Kinetic AP damage to all hostile characters grappled by or adjacent to it, then regains HP equal to half the damage dealt. This action cannot be performed if the Balor is Exposed.
• Hive Frenzy: Keep the same, except:
    ○ remove regeneration
    ○ Double new Scouring Swarm to 4 Kinetic AP
    ○ Adjacent hostiles are Shredded
muted blaze
#

Looks good

#

Time for the ✨ vibes ✨ based review

#

I feel like from gameplay, a melee properly stuck in enemy, especially with size 2 is gonna be adjacent to about 1-2 people... Then again speed is increased and it actively wants engagement rather than just being in threat

#

I feel being engaged to 3 targets is gonna be quite rare... But not too uncommon. Which makes me think the average healing will be about 1-3 HP that feels quite low and potentially negligible

#

I won't be surprised if "you heal the same amount as the damage dealt" would be fine rather than half the damage

#

But then 2-6 feels like it could be too much...

#

Eh nah, that's less than a balor regens anyway I'm p sure...

vagrant grotto
#

Alright let's go through some benchmarks here

muted blaze
#

Wiser than my ✨ vibes ✨ based review probably

vagrant grotto
#

Balor LL3 can get max 24 HP without IPSN CB and Persos

#

LL12 can get max 30

#

LL6 gets 27

#

1/4 HP in each case is:

  • LL3: 6
  • LL6: 6.75 (round up to 7)
  • LL12: 7.5 (round up to 8)
ashen crown
#

I do think because this regen is tactics based and happens at the start of the Balor’s turn rather than the start of adjacent character’s turns (giving a lot of leeway to escape) I think trending towards the higher regen values isn’t that bad personally. Emperor can outpace that easily but I almost think Emperor is on the list of frames to change even if it’s really low on the list

vagrant grotto
#

Emperor may make it onto the list at some point yeah

muted blaze
#

All doubled on core... So the regen is based on how tactically the balor plays rather than how much forfeited the rest of their stats at char creation 😛

vagrant grotto
#

anyway right now the general vibe is looking like "Standard Hullmaxed balor gets around 5 + Tier HP from regen"

ashen crown
#

Having GMed against a grappler Zheng obsessed with forming grapple balls it feels weirdly trivial to just not be adjacent to threatening characters when they start their turn- it’s staying away that’s difficult but that doesn’t help this version of regen

muted blaze
#

And is turned off on stress or structure... Whereas the new one is turned off on enemies not being close

vagrant grotto
#

and Exposed

#

and Stunned/Dazed

ashen crown
#

I almost feel like the exposed shut down is unnecessary

muted blaze
#

I guess a stunned balor still regens...

vagrant grotto
#

Stun usually comes from Structure damage in CRB

muted blaze
#

But that's like... "Oh no, the doom spiral condition doom spirals, call me shocked" in that regard lmao

vagrant grotto
#

so I view them as roughly overlapping in that context

muted blaze
#

Yeah

vagrant grotto
#

Note: I'm also buffing the kinetic damage to AP so

muted blaze
#

In which case, the healing probably could be upped to full damage... IMO. Especially since it no longer scales based on tier or your build

#

Which makes it have less of a reliance on hull which is also cool

vagrant grotto
#

I was considering whether I should scale damage with Grit

ashen crown
#

That I don’t know about

vagrant grotto
#

at max it's 6 damage/3 HP per target

#

going off the above, that actually matches the LL12 case pretty well

#

3 targets to beat the 8 regen

muted blaze
#

I say no purely because nothing else damage related does... Besides overshield application...

#

But overshield application IS based on basically healing so... It might work???

#

12 AP kinetic on core tho 💀

vagrant grotto
#

double the healing, not the damage

muted blaze
#

Ooooh is see

#

So grit AP damage, half into healing. Core makes it becomes full damage into healing

vagrant grotto
#

yup

muted blaze
#

Unfortunately the core is less useful at LL2z and scales to be much better at higher tiers

vagrant grotto
#

hey look I added Shredded as a consolation prize

ashen crown
#

It certainly has a much harder time triggering now- the ratio of TSS 2 triggers I’ve seen over the amount of combats it’s been equipped in is like 0.25

muted blaze
vagrant grotto
#

LL3: 2 grit, 1 healing per target, need 6 targets to break even (extremely difficult)
LL6: 3 grit, 2 healing per target, need 3.5 targets to break even (still difficult)
LL12: 6 grit, 3 healing per target, need 3 targets to break even (still difficult)

ashen crown
vagrant grotto
#

lemme check 1+grit

muted blaze
#

Hmm, cringe /j

ashen crown
muted blaze
#

Idea, keep damage at 2AP and just have healing equal to grit rather than half damage?

#

Or am I confused and that was the plan

vagrant grotto
#

LL3: 3 damage, 2 healing per target, 3 to break even
LL6: 4 damage, 2 per target still, 3.5 to break even
LL12: 7 damage, 4 per target, 2 to break even

ashen crown
muted blaze
#

Fair, but scaling damage is odd

umbral sluice
ashen crown
# muted blaze Hmm, cringe /j

The D/D 288 is nice tru but I think for this player’s build he would have a miserable time with it, especially considering he has an exotic heavy that’s pretty good (you know the sourcebook Al)

muted blaze
#

(then we fly 16 tiles apart)

vagrant grotto
# 
Regenerating Swarm - Protocol
The Balor deals 2 Kinetic AP damage to all hostile characters grappled by or adjacent to it. If it damages at least one character, it regains HP equal to 1+Grit. This action cannot be performed if the Balor is Exposed.
muted blaze
#

Oh so it just needs to damage once

#

🤔

#

Yeah that reduces swinginess of enemy comp too

vagrant grotto
#

yup

umbral sluice
#

Does it really need the exposed shutoff? I can't quite see what it's doing there

vagrant grotto
#

max heal is 7 at LL12, 6 at LL9, 4 at LL6, 3 at LL3

vagrant grotto
muted blaze
vagrant grotto
#

trying to leave that level of counterplay

muted blaze
vagrant grotto
#

double regen probably there

muted blaze
#

Just thinking... Would the standard overshield amount of "4+grit" be too much... Probably

#

2+grit I could also see

vagrant grotto
#

6 regen at ll3, 8 at ll6, 14 at ll12 which is still less than half

#

the standard overshield amount is... oooof

#

a lot

muted blaze
#

I've never actually played with one so I don't know 😛

vagrant grotto
#

It's more that we gotta look at overshield like 1-time armor

#

like armor can be multiplicative sure

#

like there's a reason I nerfed Capacitor's OS

muted blaze
#

Coming to the realisation, mass application of OS on NPCs is wild

vagrant grotto
#

okay so actually Balor is a pretty great example of Armor But Not Armor

#

Because if Balor receives 1 attack per round, it's like the Regen was armor equal to that amount

muted blaze
#

Armour over multiple attacks rather than individual attacks

vagrant grotto
#

Assault hits for 6 damage, 3 gets regen'd, effectively 3 armor

#

if assault barrages, the armor is less valuable

muted blaze
#

It also doesn't care about AP

vagrant grotto
#

so we'll average it out to 1.5 armor ish

#

guessing that the Balor takes 2 attacks per round

muted blaze
#

Nothing has... Overshield penetration... That's a thing in xcom sometimes 🤔

#

Huh...

#

How have I never thought of that...

#

Unfortunately I think that's useless because OS is balanced around the concept OS penetration doesn't exist

#

Unless you count snipers mark or SCL 😛

vagrant grotto
#

though tbf I guess you could also look at the regen as just raw HP over 6 rounds. So you take the HP gained over 4-6 rounds, divide by 4 structure (since you aren't gaining HP per structure, just the 1), and get...

#

3 HP * 4 rounds /4 structure = 3 base HP ish

#

so Balor would have 15 HP base stat

#

idk I'm going in circles over this HP stuff

#

what am I driving at

#

gonna roll it back real quick

umbral sluice
#

the whip that nukes your OS

muted blaze
#

I meant like "deal 2 damage straight to HP, keep overshield"

umbral sluice
#

oh yeah, not really

#

i suppose Sniper's Mark and SCL somewhat count

muted blaze
#

Succeed SCL and kinda go "ok and" as you still have 6 OS

vagrant grotto
#

Regen at LL2 means 13 HP at least (assuming no Hull investment), divided by 4 is 4 HP (roundup)

2+Grit OS is 3 HP, 4+Grit OS is 5 HP, and we're assuming that current Regen is Too High

umbral sluice
muted blaze
#

When I said, default OS scaling. I meant it still heals HP just that overshield is standardised to 4HP + grit by default

#

What if it healed 4+grit ho not regenned 4+grit OS... Sorry if that's what I implied

vagrant grotto
#

yeah I'm saying 4 HP + Grit Overshield is too high a standard that's all

muted blaze
#

Cool ok we are on the same page 😄

vagrant grotto
#

(I think that the standard should be more like 2+grit overshield tbqh, if not 1+Grit or just pure Grit)

#

I think I'm gonna bump the healing during Core Power from 2+Grit to 4+Grit

muted blaze
#

Sounds safe

#

It also shreds and does more damage

vagrant grotto
#

ranges from 3-8 and 5-10

#

mostly because of said shredding but yes

muted blaze
#

Rather than 3-8 and 6-16

#

And like, it can now regen after tanking a structure AND it has +1 HC

#

Also wacky idea... AP kinetic is good but like... Burn 👉👈

#

(I'm being greedy)

vagrant grotto
muted blaze
#

😭

vagrant grotto
#

also feels bad to fight a Pyro

muted blaze
#

On top of having your heat sent to the moon

#

Which is probably a greater concern

#

Greywash and drones are odd how they're not that standardised between kinetic, ap kinetic and burn

#

Alas, not the balors job to standardise it

vagrant grotto
#

kinda want to revise Swarm body slightly, and Whip

#

Whip I'd just, change it from on-crit to a Save On Hit

#

or a bonus for consuming lock on

#

it's a smart whip, lock on feels right

#

Swarm Body, I kinda liked how Lancers in the Dark made it grow in size and only turn off on movement that wasn't your standard move? but like, it's going from 3-9 damage on a save here

#

I just don't like how rearguard-coded it is

#

"here's this dangerous zone but it's not going anywhere, but it'll suck if you get close. Ergo, you never wanna get close"

muted blaze
#

No movement is just so damn limiting

#

Movement is key in lancer, even if it's only 1-2 tiles

vagrant grotto
#

Since I'm pushing Balor into melee adjacency territory I may just Slow the balor and have it turn off on invol. movement

#

but reduce damage to 2/4/6

#

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

#

wait a fuck

#

Pathfinder...

#

Pathfinder 2e has a Sustain effect for certain spells where if you spend an action to sustain them, their area expands

muted blaze
#

QA, slow + activate, then QA increase size and damage?

vagrant grotto
#

yeah

muted blaze
#

Still turned off on invol?

vagrant grotto
#

I'd turn it off on overheat

muted blaze
#

Mmmmmmm

vagrant grotto
#

not sure

muted blaze
#

Considering it can go to other frames... Up to base speed. Even a burst 1 area of 2-6 damage on a speed 8 frame is kinda bonkers

vagrant grotto
#

I think I actually dislike the scaling damage

muted blaze
#

Have 2 stages, on and empowered. It turns on with activation cost (I forgot if it's QA or prote). Then slow, then empower as a same or different cost, immob until start of next turn and double the damage

#

So just make it so it scales only once

vagrant grotto
# 
Swarm Body
2 SP, Unique, Quick Action
After activating this system, you become Slowed and release a Burst 1 swarm. Characters of your choice that start their turn in the area or enter it on their turn must succeed on a Systems save or take 3 kinetic AP. As a quick action on subsequent turns, you may increase the size of the Burst by 1 (to a maximum of Burst 3).

This effect lasts until you overheat or end it as a quick action.
muted blaze
#

I had a build idea that would probably make you want to go back to working in the Talentless hack

#

It involves putting this on a balor or Pegasus with iconoclast

#

Eh, it's not guaranteed damage

#

Looks neat tho, and by removing damage scaling and having aoe scaling it makes it so you don't feel like you're missing it if you're not using your actions Econ on making the damage greater

vagrant grotto
# 
Nanobot Whip
Heavy Melee, 2 SP, Smart
[Threat 3][2d6 Kinetic]
On hit: If you consumed Lock On for this attack, pull your target to a free space adjacent to you, or as close as possible.
#

maybe add an auto-grapple on a crit

#

let's see though, compared to Kinetic Hammer (another Heavy Melee locked behind a License 3)

#

KinHam:
Heavy Melee, Reliable 4
[Threat 1][2d6+2 Kinetic]

muted blaze
#

Reliable 4...

#

Why does Raleigh get this...

ashen crown
#

For a second I thought KinHammer was getting nerfed and just kinda accepted it upfront

vagrant grotto
#

is Reliable 4 and +2 base damage worth

Smart, Threat 3, and an on-crit pull

ashen crown
vagrant grotto
#

I'm not even touching the 2 SP cost yet

#

IMO the 2 SP cost of Nanobot should probably match to the On Crit effect

ashen crown
#

I feel like you could give Nanobot Whip an on hit effect but probably best not to touch that idea

vagrant grotto
ashen crown
#

Oh no more pull?

vagrant grotto
#

yes more pull

vagrant grotto
ashen crown
#

Ah okay I misunderstood

muted blaze
#

God, last time I was playing with a balor in the party I was a swallowtail

#

So I'm loving the idea of that...

ashen crown
#

Would giving Nanobot AP put it too over the edge or no? I feel like it could get away with AP but idk how big the threat 3 plays into the power budget

vagrant grotto
#

how much damage is AP worth

muted blaze
#

Threat 3 heavy is pretty big

ashen crown
#

Like the GMS Heavy Melee does +1 damage

vagrant grotto
#

GMS Heavy Melee gets a threat buff from me at least

ashen crown
ashen crown
ashen crown
muted blaze
vagrant grotto
#

GMS Energy Melee is a little below curve IMO as well yeah

#

but I generally think that way on Melee weapons

#

that said, Executioner hangs overhead like a sword of Damocles

muted blaze
#

Yeah ap on a heavy is quite big on a large threat heavy. Because half damage Vs armour is a thing...

#

Didn't think of that

#

Low threat AP heavy "oh no, anyway"

High threat ap heavy "OH NO"

ashen crown
#

the 2 SP is basically paying for the pull, with the increase to threat coming at a minor damage cost. So with the change the SP cost probably balances out fine, but if it were kept a crit effect then it wouldn’t have balanced out appropriately

#

I’m personally of the opinion 2 SP is too much, as comparing to the “SP weapon in exchange for control effects” weapons as closest points for that, Terashima Blade is a melee that comes with a ludicrous number of admittedly kinda niche riders, and Gilgamesh’s Legion Nexus gets a whole drone system that doesn’t require continuous fire to make use of

vagrant grotto
#

okay pic 1 is KinHam vs an Ace statblock. Pic 2 is Nanobot vs Ace (smart accounted for)

image.png image.png
ashen crown
vagrant grotto
#

If I change the damage on Nanobot to 2d6+2, it hits the same average as KinHam, vs. Ace at least

ashen crown
#

So I guess it’s a matter of “would you be willing to put KinHammer level damage on a license that can actually use it?”

muted blaze
#

Ye olde classic "too much variance with damage that's only dice"

vagrant grotto
#

I'd be willing to give it 2d6+1 I think

muted blaze
#

When you attack with only damage die:
Attack 1: 11 damage on hit 🤩
Attack 2: 1 damage crit (accounting for armour) 💀

vagrant grotto
#

I'm playing a crossbow ranger so this is very real to me yeah

#

1d10+1d8 (no additional modifiers for dex)

muted blaze
#

What about accurate?

ashen crown
#

I personally don’t know if a 2 SP tax is an interesting consequence for Balor, but “buffing benefits vs reducing costs” is a matter of opinion so if the goal is to just make the 2 SP cost worth it then yeah adding +1 damage makes sense

#

AP would be neat but there’s just too much variance at that point.

vagrant grotto
#

Gonna try with 1 SP and see where that goes then

#

keeping damage 2d6

muted blaze
#

Aye fair

#

I'm trying to think of whats the difference between free guns and gandiva/smart gun...

ashen crown
#

Yeah I’d be more in favor of just keeping it as a “controller-y” weapon that’s slightly easier to use.

muted blaze
#

After seeing terrashima for the first time, terrashima basically just feels like a 2sp system on top of a sword

#

You can equip a terrashima and never use it for attacks

ashen crown
muted blaze
#

Is gandiva 1 sp?

#

I thought it was 2 💀

vagrant grotto
#

Gandiva should be 2 SP with its seeking tbf

muted blaze
#

I HATE SEEKING I HATE SEEKING I HATE SEEKING I HATE SEEKING

vagrant grotto
#

I'm being called out here lol

muted blaze
#

No that's me, I'm not mocking anyone here

opaque crescent
muted blaze
#

I could say why but I'm probably preaching to the qu... Quie... Quior... Crowd that sings

muted blaze
umbral sluice
opaque crescent
vagrant grotto
opaque crescent
#

silksong reference?

muted blaze
#

That's it

#

It doesn't have a q in it

vagrant grotto
#

Balor tweaks live

#

I might go back in and tweak Nanocomp to require Target be in the danger zone though

#

Like explicitly

#

Since my player side house rules lacks Heat Seeking

muted blaze
vagrant grotto
#

Which

muted blaze
#

Or is it when a character starts their turn adjacent or grappled?

vagrant grotto
#

Protocol

muted blaze
#

Ok cool, I don't think it's clear in the doc... Or I'm silly

vagrant grotto
#

I’ll check

vagrant grotto
#

I'll add it to the docs

granite saddle
#

You guys keep having interesting discussions when I'm busy, it's almost like we're on different timezones or something !

#

anyways, I generally agree with the conclusions you all came to here, I just have one little thing to add :

muted blaze
granite saddle
# vagrant grotto (I think that the standard should be more like 2+grit overshield tbqh, if not 1+...

That "standard" you are referring to, while yea pretty established, also happens to be all on limited stuff, with the exception of the WW brace, but that one comes with base game brace which is hella punishing. The two non-limited OS options that come to mind are Dominion's breadth and Invigorate, and both of those are flat values (with rider effects and all, but you get my point).
Essentially if you make the 4+grit options just +grit they all become entirely and unsalvageably worthless, might as well use Breadth or Invigorate. +3 is probably fine, maybe +2 if you really hate them that much, but lower and they'd start feeling not worth the [3SP on a limited system you'd have to use even more times now].

#

Honestly I'd rather see them go to limited 2 or 1 than lowered OS

#

1 feels really rough if they stay at 3SP, but at least it's usable.

muted blaze
#

The other thing that uses 4+grit that isn't limited is emperor base OS

granite saddle
#

Yeah but taking its hp into account it's just equivalent to a 6hp frame with extra steps

#

since it adds grit to its OS instead of hp.

muted blaze
#

"I want to play emperor"
"We have an emperor at home"
Balor with veil rifle

granite saddle
#

Finally, the balor license as a whole being interesting, worth it and not entierly game-breaking.
Puts a tear to my eye.

vagrant grotto
#

needs testing but that's the hope lol

granite saddle
#

the only thing I'm sad about is hive drone banished to rank 2 but sacrifices have to be made, it is what it is

muted blaze
#

Hive drone good

vagrant grotto
#

enjoy your Rank 1 Swarm/Hive Seeking Smart burn nexus as consolation

muted blaze
#

I love stealing my allies hive drone

granite saddle
#

to beginner me, swarm/hive was like the coolest weapon ever

muted blaze
#

Makes a good ll1 dip for a ghengis ghengis dip you care more about burn than CQBs

granite saddle
#

Swarm/Hive Toku 🤔

muted blaze
#

House ruled toku only gets damage bonuses on melee

#

Riiiight????

vagrant grotto
#

correct

muted blaze
#

Which puts annihilator in an awkward spot but hey ho

vagrant grotto
#

you get the range bonus though

muted blaze
#

Tru

vagrant grotto
#

Range 5->8 is pretty good

muted blaze
#

Small price to pay for extra range

#

(exposed)

granite saddle
#

Also Ghengises Mk1 eating good. Slap some WA2 on it and we gamin'

ashen crown
vagrant grotto
#

I did

#

just now

#

that's what Maria does and I trust Maria's experience

ashen crown
#

I was joking but like Paracausal is 4 SP so it's only fair

#

Bypassing game mechanics should be expensive

vagrant grotto
#

frankly, I think there tends to be an overemphasis on the build phase

#

splitting things up, moving things around, and making things cost more SP/mounts/etc

#

this does not help when the build is assembled and proceeding to wreck face

#

Lancer's "class levels" are very shallow, this isn't like D&D where the Wizard's 9th level spells are gated behind 17 levels

#

if you want to grab something, chances are that you can eventually

ashen crown
#

Yeah the gap between theory and practice when it comes to builds has gotten a bit narrow, mainly due to just more knowledge but also Lancer removes a few of the typical obstacles when it comes to increasing that gap

vagrant grotto
#

like, LL6 is commonly considered full build. Mostly because you can't really fit more stuff on the mech besides CBs past that point

#

if builds have basically everything they need/can fit by LL6 in a 12 LL game... yeah. Moving stuff around will only get you so far

#

that 3 SP will be affordable with 1 more point of grit

granite saddle
#

I have a fair few builds that just... don't until LL7 or 8, but yeah between LL6 and LL9 is where every build ends up being done. anything past is just stat increases basically

ashen crown
#

On the plus side you get to play the game at its ideal state in the middle of the level curve, which is pretty handy

inland pilot
#

lmao

vagrant grotto
#

listen I just remember how your Balor was causing you troubles lol

inland pilot
#

i've had a lot of encounters with balor which ended up with my having to think as a GM, yeah

though ... I will say in retrospect, that probably wasn't a bad thing. I obviously have my thoughts, but I don't think any of my struggles felt problematic so much as I felt like I was continually learning alongside said player

#

we were in an arms race and it led to a much deeper understanding of what goes into and comes out of a Balor

#

all the same though, you're more than welcome to just ping me out of nowhere and ask stuff if it comes up

#

i can share my own thoughts and experience freely

vagrant grotto
#

I eventually got carried away and made my whole revision lol

#

but legit I'd love to hear where you're currently at on Balor thoughts

inland pilot
#

to the point I imagine anything I throw at you might be very different to your ideal and vision (even if we share some potential opinions on some factors)

#

I can probably start though, funny enough, not on the Balor itself but rather what my player did with a Balor

inland pilot
# inland pilot I can probably start though, funny enough, not on the Balor itself but rather wh...

I had (outside of a oneshot, which I will also bring up) about 6 full scenes of wrangling with a Balor over two consecutive Missions at about LL6-7, so pretty far along as builds go.

The first rendition of the build was a dumb-simple Balor Sehkmet with basically very few frills. Reinforced Frame, Thinking Tomorrow's Thought, and go; The only catch, ultimately, was that the player had an Exotic which allow them to "focus" Sehkmet after the first scene, chasing down a single individual instead of the closest but being unable to change target otherwise.

This went more or less as you'd expect. Balor would launch itself into the fray using it's 4 Agility pizzazz to Speed 5 all of the place and serve well as the "battering ram" to any encounter, beelining towards whatever looked like the densest ball of enemies and fixing them in place while the allied team fell in behind. That fit largely with the objectives, all of which were offensively oriented.

In the first scene, I managed to get off a Hacker Engineer Expose which opened up a lot of punishment, because y'know, no Heat Cap. I'm certain I managed to do the same on the 3rd too, as what I was met with in the mission following was ... interesting.

inland pilot
# inland pilot I had (outside of a oneshot, which I will also bring up) about 6 full scenes of ...

What once was a "dumb as bricks" Balor had been transmuted into a "dumb as a radiator" Balor; Spaceborne 2, Open Door, Heatfall Coolant System, Swarm Body. Explosive Vents. Ferrous Lash. Flash Anchor. Magnetic Cannon and Nanobot Whip. The player looked me in the eye, saw my bullshit, and went alright. Bet. Rolled up with a 5/2/0/2 spread and we duked it out. Even without the infamous "+5 HP" from IPS-N's Reinforced Frame, I was contending with 28 HP.

At first I was just shocked. What had been given to me was basically a Balor that did not care in the slightest about most anti-Balor tech; Game plan was, quite simply, to walk up, Overcharge, Stabilize, Explosive Vent. If I hacked or engaged with Heat in any way, then they would forgo the Overcharge to just Stabilize up front. If I tried to relocate or force the Balor away to prevent Vent/Swam Body/Scouring Swarm, actually no I would just either make it move more where it wants or it just would tell me "no". If I tried to back away, it had 3 seperate Save types that could then reel me back in. First Scene, it soaked over 100 damage without Structuring /once/, without using Core.

Scene two I got more competitive, and decided to put the entire team under a lot more pressure. Using your Control rules, I did succeed that - it was a knock-down drag-out brawl and even with the extra Speed I was able to get some headway in challenging the Balor by forcing split attention and otherwise using long-range focus fire and plentiful map hazards. It was here that a forced a Core Power use, as it became clear it couldn't just sit back and camp one point because I was then thrashing the rest of the team while ignoring it, and it had to get into the fray.

#

The final scene of the mission - and module - did not have such significant highlights, seeing I got into the rhythm of how to deal with a Balor (which frankly after a point was mostly Burn, ironically) but it did once again prove it's mettle by being able to dive my Artillery and backline uncontested due to the ignorance of forced movement and otherwise Blender Things with the combination of Scouring Swarm and Explosive Vent

#

I do not think I ever expected to have to fight such a monster, but, I did. And in the end ... I don't even think it felt that oppressive which is maybe the weirdest part?

#

The problem, if anything, was that it was very novel, and specifically that build forced me to reconcile the most with "what makes the Balor, Balor" by removing all the tools by which you might "cheese" out a Balor otherwise - no Heat, no forced movement, only brawl.

#

So, with that encounter in mind, my thoughts could be probably summed as such:

I think the biggest deciding factor for Balor is that Regeneration - as it is currently - is both extremely signature and extremely vital, but in terms of "frames a GM has to play in mind of" is probably one of the ones they have to shore up the most of

That isn't to say that the Balor has ever felt overbearing, or overtuned, or anything of that description: its just that how a Balor works isn't very frametypical and requires a unique pattern of attention and engagement, which, frankly, feeds into the fact it is a Defender very well

I know you had worries about Regeneration being range agnostic and how that encourages long-range Balor nonsense (and I do agree Sniper Balor is just weird) but in my experience I felt it is also a necessary component of allowing a more typical Balor wriggle room in how it contests things. If you can just eat damage from Artillery while sitting on a control point, cool, fine by the Balor.

So the most polarising thing in the end isn't 'when' or 'what' so much as 'how much' - 1/4 HP I actually think is reasonable ... if you realise how much 1/4 HP is. HP can be ticked up through so many sources (theres a System, Core Bonus, and Grit even if you ignore Hull) so getting to 30 HP is not tricky. 12 HP gives you 3 Regen up front; 30 gives you 8, which is enough to eat one NPC turn worth of Skirmish. Often this means it forces the attention of one-other NPC to challenge it ... which for a frame designed to be an attention sponge, yeah, that works wonders for the design.

The problem is that 1/2 HP on the Core Active, which throws all that out the window. Suddenly you now need 3 NPC Skirmishes to do anything, which ends up being too much. Even without being able to Brace, in most of my experiences - both these scenes and the oneshot - a Core Active Balor can soak ... apocalyptic amounts of damage and still live.

inland pilot
# vagrant grotto This is where I'm basically at atm: <https://github.com/msprijatelj/valk-lancer-...

I will otherwise say looking at the changes here, that I do see the idea behind them even if I largely do not agree with them: I think trying to smooth out the curve for Regeneration this way ( 2+Grit, funny enough, is very similar to the 3 start, 8 end point I described) is admirable even if it hurts the early game potential of a Balor more (in exchange for more stats mind, which I do think makes for a more generous overall experience, agreeably.

But I do not feel I would tie it and Scouring Swarm together even on a significantly faster mech, because Balor /isn't/ a wrecking ball. It can be one, with the right build. but it can also just as easily be a Demolisher that digs in its heels on a point and goes "come get me." This is only reinforced by, well, Swarm Body being Swarm Body, frankly and Nanobot whip being Nanobot whip; the license /itself/ implies a method of "stand still and zone the fuck out of people"

#

I think Regeneration being range-agnostic is more vital than Balor needing to cross the battlescape in two seconds, even if it is decidedly meant to be a shorter-range mech, and it was very much that second Balor design my player brought that kind of highlighted that. It is a point brawler, ward and roaming hazard, not a diver or duelist

#

buuut again, I do understand wanting to avoid the whole "nanocomp sniper Balor" because that is the biggest departure and otherwise there is very little the encourage, well, playing Balor as Balor. But I don't think dangling Regeneration is the way to achieve that

#

Either way: I think that is largely my summary on Balor. I looked at some of the license changes like Swarm Body being Slowed and think "Yeah thats fine still" but still hold my opinion otherwise on Balor being a slower-paced mech, with everything reflecting that, by design

#

If I were to try and wrangle the Balor personally, it would be one of the core elements I would strive to maintain, over just trying to turn it into (at the risk of being slightly mean, though I don't mean it that way) just another melee mech

#

(oh, last point, but I do otherwise agree with points before that HP regen being HP is both deliberate and vital for the Balor too, as a identity thing, so I'm glad that was kept over switching to OS which is a thing I see argued for a lot but usually find no basis or reason for)

vagrant grotto
muted blaze
#

Hmmm, I think the balor isn't as extreme as it... But I did think about the concern of, whilst streamlining a mech. Watering it down to a shadow of it's prior self...

#

Like, atlas... Hell naw that shit was rad as hell

ashen crown
#

Atlas got buffed watchu talkin’ about?

muted blaze
#

Yeah ik

#

I mean as in when I saw the reworked atlas it was rad as hell

#

But as I mentioned in the Caliban in my playtest... I don't recall it using much of it's Caliban abilities. It was faster but... It didn't do much Caliban ing... It never followed through and only knocked the ultra into an object once... Then again that could just be the dd288 Caliban playstyle

vagrant grotto
#

yeah no idk. I do think that Reconus's experience indicates that with the right build, Balor can be a completely acceptable monster

ashen crown
#

Emphasis on “acceptable” or “monster”?

muted blaze
#

I never doubted it couldn't. But it's a hefty investment if that's the "only" way to make it an "acceptable monster"

vagrant grotto
#

monster (appreciative)

vagrant grotto
ashen crown
#

To me it sounds like Reconus dealt with a Balor that maximized it’s traditional strengths and minimized its traditional weakness in order to force the GM to deal with its gimmick head on rather than circumvent it, and the result was “it was fun, difficult, but reasonable to push past”

vagrant grotto
#

smooth out the stats so it can threaten without having traps to avoid

muted blaze
#

"With these talents and these licences and these systems. It can finally do pretty damn well at what it was made to do" (exaggeration ofc but still)

vagrant grotto
#

Maybe I’m approaching it too much like an NPC, sure

muted blaze
#

Your balor rework makes me imagine I'm getting a monstrous unit in total war Warhammer to bumrush some shitty humans with pikes

vagrant grotto
#

When I envision Balor, I am envisioning an aggressive, resilient maelstrom of fire and hatred

umbral sluice
#

even when i have infinite pursue prey, i think i can count on one hand when i did use it

#

i just prefer knock away and then punish for getting back

muted blaze
#

I mean, I thought of it and went "wait, having your main source of knockback from a super super heavy weapon would do that"

umbral sluice
#

maybe we need another sample size because idk if that's the "correct" way to play the frame tbh

vagrant grotto
#

I 100% view Balor as wanting to be a Vanguard over a rearguard though I definitely understand that those two roles’ tools overlap based on context

#

Even if I take the tack of “okay this is Lancer it’s not supposed to be a dnd balor” and look at it more like, say, a regenerating troll, I still think it wants to get in there and cause a ruckus more so than simply hold ground

#

But, this is my role-focused design speaking

muted blaze
#

House rule, balor licence changed: change HORUS BALOR to the HORUS TROLL

#

That's all

inland pilot
vagrant grotto
#

Understood then

inland pilot
#

It's why I actually do like the idea and angle you took of divorcing the regen from scaling based on HP directly - it frees up opportunities for HASE investment that isn't just "pump Hull first, because duh"

#

because yeah, Balor is in a weird spot otherwise

vagrant grotto
#

Yeah, maybe the regen trait with modified scaling is fine on its own even

inland pilot
#

I don't think low Evasion is bad for what is a sponge but the low Heat Cap and Speed can hurt if you want to be more aggressive

#

and ultimately you end up having to pick and choose, especially early on

#

and more often than not frankly you just want Hull early because NPC damage doesn't spike until ... LL4 is it? anyway

#

so reap the reward while you can

muted blaze
#

Ll5 is tier 2, unless your GM sprinkles it in

inland pilot
#

yeah, I forget if its 4 or 5 often

#

which really reinforces the deal in the case

#

8/turn regen is something tier 2 can contend with but tier 1 will feel a lot more in terms of impact

#

If I had to pick at specifics: I think the modified scaling with maybe +1 in HC and Evasion is going to be enough to get the ball rolling maybe and "open up" Balor a lot more. Speed 5 is pushing it hard in a way I don't think is necessary, but I could see Speed 4 as an argument (vs Tortuga which, while also short range, has less "adjacency" effects than Balor)

#

its really a case of getting the base frame in at a nice point to springboard off of in terms of built potential instead of, as Valk pointed, more or less playing catch up (which frankly is an issue I find with a fair few frames at this stage, mostly the You Know Who's) with weaknesses constantly

#

but thats me rambling more into the territory of "some of the lows for mechs are way too low, in general"

#

There's "a mech can be weak in something in exchange for big gains elsewhere" and then there's Blackbeard

#

"you have no e-defence so any hack sticks. also you have 4 heat cap so if you even think about using a GMS shield then all it takes is two of them to overheat you. also you explode because your reactor sucks and you get difficulty to engineering and exposed invalidates any HP you have anyway"

#

its a runaway train of effects

#

which has fed into my thoughts of wanting to make Exposed ... less, that? but also just "yeah maybe combining the lowest E-def with the lowest Heat cap was a bit much"

#

I think if anyone made a mech with 6 HP and 6 Evasion, everyone would rightly call it out as miserable

vagrant grotto
#

Yeah absolutely

#

Low EDEF and low heat show up a bit too often together

inland pilot
#

its 100% because NPC invades just are kind of squirreled away or arbitrary sequested, I feel

#

which means that the combination feels more "acceptable" because invades are more "rare"

#

(which is a fib, but yeah)

#

that then obviously feeds into the issue of "it feels mean as a gm to throw invades out of nowhere despite the fact its literally a base skill?????"

#

its all interconnected, turns out!

#

and i've had to think about it constantly for that reason!

vagrant grotto
#

I may give BB a little stat pass at some point

#

Because it’s on the low end too for what it is, from my spreadsheet

inland pilot
#

me being "mean" is what led to the evolutionary conditions that created the horrifying genghis balor to begin with so like, yeah

#

it all circles back

#

and while it WAS good to experience I do think back and go "I wish that build was something the play felt was fun to, rather than something they felt they suddenly had to do"

#

not that the player didn't have fun, they did. they took it as an ernest challenge and it caught me off guard

#

was a good arms race

#

buuuut ... yeah

vagrant grotto
#

Yeah absolutely

inland pilot
#

give players some wriggle room, pls

#

no more extremely high-low disasters waiting to happen

#

(white witch this means you too)

vagrant grotto
#

Yeah I went after its armor stacking too

inland pilot
#

its a mech I've wanted to look at for some time

#

because I do like it (admittedly, biased, I love armor as a mechanic) but god damn

vagrant grotto
#

I like Maria’s take though I haven’t tried it yet

#

But basically it uses Overshield instead of Armor, and I think it makes decent sense

inland pilot
#

It makes some, yeah, even if I'm not 100% on board with it

#

I think my preliminary thoughts were leaning more into the Armor aspect from a defender perspective, i.e, actually leveraging it as a means to reduce damage to allies rather than purely for self sustain

vagrant grotto
#

I’ll say that simply dropping the armor cap to 3 and 6 has worked very well in playtesting

inland pilot
#

I dunno if you were there for my rambles, but I played also with inbuilt "rollover" mechanic based on the core active

#

which feels more in line with stuff like Black Ice and such

#

but again, nothing serious in terms of examination

#

brain has been far too busy for that. too many other projects 😔

#

can't keep reworking existing content when I got a field guide to push out and also squad kits to ponder more on

vagrant grotto
#

Big mood yeah lol

muted blaze
#

Seeing Valk talk about the problems of the balor and going along with all of the issues and getting sweet talked over. Then hearing reconus raise valid points on why it shouldn't be pigeon holed into a specific play style then reminding me critical thinking exists and sometimes I should exercise independent thought

#

😔

vagrant grotto
#

Yeah no come to your own conclusions

#

I guarantee there will be moments I’m full of shit

#

Hold me accountable

#

I’m not a Lancer guru, just opinionated and know enough to be dangerous

granite saddle
#

I, for one, know where I agree with you, where I think you're going too far, and where I know my players won't agree enough (so I'll have to compromise)
(But I also just Turn Brain Off sometimes. Oops.)

south cypress
inland pilot
south cypress
#

(Scrolled farther up and saw 2+grit suggested but I had already typed enough out that I didn't want to stop the train of thought lmao)

inland pilot
#

doing my best to not come of as though any of my thoughts, experiences or opinions are gospel and failing

#

"scaling is the devil", etc etc

muted blaze
# vagrant grotto Yeah no come to your own conclusions

For the balor, I think my brain went "this is an improvement to what I perceived before for the reasons you stated. So I can excuse the things I'd like to criticise without because it's better than the alternative"

#

Unfortunately, I am also not a lancer guru... So therefore I feel like I might have opinions™ that might not be good ones

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Unfortunately there's a decent number of hills I won't die on

ashen crown
ashen crown
vagrant grotto
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I mean yeah I question whether WW needs Harden when it has everything else

ashen crown
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I feel like having a way to “spend armor” would be neat, which is kinda what Reconus mentioned about having the rollover mechanic always be active

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Despite how unfairly tanky White Witch is I do think 6 armor is extremely iconic+fun and could work somehow

inland pilot
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once again in the "is 6 e-def + 4 heat cap necessary" camp

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one of my initial ideas otherwise was making Harden key directly into Ferroreactive and instead give you an extra Armor pip and still applying half Armor even if you're shredded or something; Nowadays I'm more of the mind to remove Harden entirely and instead make Rooted be "resistance to Kinetic and AP damage" to bring that more to the forefront

ashen crown
inland pilot
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I'd believe that if it actually was a mech with stats, but it really isn't

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not in practice

ashen crown
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It’s RepCap and Agility are pretty good tho, and while 7 HP is a good portion below average a good portion of the White Witch gameplan is find a way to survive the couple hits it takes to build up Ferroactive Armor

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It’s Heat Cap + E-Def being low is not great tho, admittedly, and if you removed Harden I’d probably bring one of those up to average

ashen crown
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But yeah while being focused down by the likes of a Sniper or Avenger is pretty not good, Rooted does go a long way to mitigate the hurt those could lay down. Meanwhile for the likes of Pyros and Hives, I feel Drake or Tortuga would not fare much better than a White Witch in that regard and that’s okay- Defenders don’t inherently defend against everything.

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a Sitrep being pure AP is miserable, yes, but rare and White Witch isn’t the only Defender burdened with dealing with that

inland pilot
# ashen crown Actually how is WW in practice? I’m curious because that Balor report was fascin...

White Witch is a lot more simple honestly, both because I've had less raw experience than "7-8 scenes of balor madness": It's way too good. Until it isn't, in which case I genuinely felt the worst I've been in all my GM experience because it was earnestly kind of sad. The problem is the fact the entire frame is so polarizing and uncompromising, which is why it has so many layers of bullshit - if it didn't, it simply would not work. It is a frame carried through by sheer spite, and not in the good way.

It's Agility is Okay for what is otherwise a Size 1/2 pretending to be a Size 2, is my take, and otherwise having the typical weakness of "begging someone to figure out the Invade button"

otherwise though, thats kind of the problem: out the box, you're getting an Atlas-tier statline that has the ability to regain Structure during a rest at least. Otherwise, you have to rely on not one, not two, but three traits to even give it a chance at doing what it needs to be doing.

Rooted is cool, but problem: It's on a high speed mech that wants to be close to allies ... and close to enemies. Turns out, you need to move a lot, so Immobilizing as a protocol isn't something you want to do

Harden is there so that if something AP or Burn shows up, you don't die. Still explode to Heat though.

And Ferroreactive, as mentioned, has no counter besides bringing AP or something ... at which point the frame is now actually kind of undertuned, when you look at what it has to defend itself with otherwise. It's not even a problem with "the entire encounter being AP" so much as one source of AP is enough to drag a White Witch through the mud

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It is a frame my player found frustrating, and a frame that I frankly felt bad fighting

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more importantly though: it just didn't feel like a Defender, after a point. Because the defensive tools are very minimal (in the frame itself, that is). It's all selfish endurance, to the point it became a problem that had to be fixed (with the addition of Fluid Burst, which is cute, but not enough still to make me go "yeah, defender")

ashen crown
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You know I was gonna say more but no this is very reasonable

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I’m still of the opinion that Ferroactive giving 6 armor is too iconic to me to be axed, but yeah WW needs some additional protection beyond that and its baseline stats are not good

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I do think WW’s license does a lot to amend these issues- almost too much.

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The first rank gives immobilizes that can potentially last purely off your turn, the second rank redirects fire towards you so you can actually be a defender and get guarantees from Ferroactive, and the 3rd rank gives a way to punish taking damage OR mitigate it.

inland pilot
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The License is really solid, yeah, no notes. The frame itself though has always been ... awkward, cumbersome, stumbling its way forward on principles that are frankly not very sound to begin with and it shows in play

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Turns out, no, you can't balance a frame for being between 0 and 6 permanent armor without it feeling awful at one end of the scale and too much at the other. It's not like other frames that can balance around having 3 Armor out the box

ashen crown
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You mentioned keeping the “overflow armor” mechanic always active- did it do anything else beyond “maxing out armor resets the armor”?

vagrant grotto
inland pilot
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Out of every mech in the game, White Witch is the one I'd call the most binary, even more so than Atlas (which often is the one people point at)

inland pilot
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It was part of an experiment to lean more into, well, being a defender, and an armor oriented one at that

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I'm not 100% on the idea but it was something worth thinking on

vagrant grotto
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I’m feeling good about my Atlas revision; lot more stats, and jockey synergizes more with its kit than grapple ever did

inland pilot
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because I do agree the Armor is signature

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but I don't think WW uses it at all to its full potential, or even in the correct way

ashen crown
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I kinda like the idea of “at will” expending the armor like a resource, but I’m not sure there’s really an effect that would make it worth it to do

vagrant grotto
inland pilot
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but either way, yeah, thats largely my observation of White Witch in total

ashen crown
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It really seems like it’d be a potent Area or Ally defender is the weird thing too- every tool in its kit makes it seem like they’re specifically for playing a role in a defender playstyle

vagrant grotto
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WW license is like 90% tank, with the one exception being its spike barrier

ashen crown
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I fail to see how that differs from the likes of Drake to be fair

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(And Black Witch/Orchis to a lesser degree)

vagrant grotto
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Drake has Guardian and Fortress Protocol and all its defensive tools require allies to camp around it

ashen crown
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I meant the Spike Barrier specifically but yeah

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There’s a lot of other stuff going on and I’m aware of that

vagrant grotto
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WW has enough speed to get where it needs to gum up the works and start issuing catch-22s

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And Camus’s Razor has enough range for it to stay flexible

ashen crown
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And Sympathetic Shield takes range out of the equation entirely, at least after the initial activation

vagrant grotto
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But yeah at this point I’d say that white witch should be able to throw globs of armor at buddies

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Like, that’s what the Fluid Burst should be imo

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WW loses 1 armor buddy gains 1 armor

ashen crown
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Armor pack does exist tru

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But if the main issue is “swinginess” then any substantial changes would probably involve transferring trait budget to stat budget

vagrant grotto
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So one sec

inland pilot
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ultimately, yeah. White Witch is trait bloated to hell and its entirely because the fundemental of "scaling armor" is inherently flawed, frankly

vagrant grotto
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The thing is that like, when I check my spreadsheet, WW actually has just under the average of Everest’s stats

ashen crown
vagrant grotto
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Some obvious things could be pulled, like docking 1 speed to give it 2 Edef back (and maybe a Heat?)

ashen crown
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One of those should be below average but not both probably

vagrant grotto
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Trait wise I’d just start cutting and refining

ashen crown
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WW could also use 8 HP instead of 7

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It’s not much but it’s something

vagrant grotto
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HP is cheap so yeah it could get that instead of heat

ashen crown
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(Maybe 9 who knows)

inland pilot
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I am definitely - personally - at a point where I actually do not know what I'd want a WW to do, mainly because I may don't know what a WW wants to necessarily do

I would like the armor-defender to play more with, using armor. to defend. but thats about it

ashen crown
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Fluid Burst is inherently just a way to trigger HoG 3 and rack up Ferro Armor is just something worth considering- reducing damage by 1 is very trivial so it’s not an actual defensive tool, it’s a threat

vagrant grotto
inland pilot
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I mean yeah Fluid Burst was LITERALLY added because of Ferroreactive

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it originally did not have it and basically meant that "if you don't take Camus you don't exist, as a frame"

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which was even more miserable than current WW

ashen crown
inland pilot
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your mech has 4 SP base now, good luck

vagrant grotto
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I frankly do not think WW needs Rooted

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But what do I know

ashen crown
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I do think the approach of going for the inverse of its current mechanics could be something- it starts each scene with 6 Armor and in order to trigger defender effects it loses the armor

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(Or if it gets overheated or smthn)