#Prototype Pattern Groups

1 messages · Page 15 of 1

vagrant grotto
#

Regarding Caliban: Yeah okay, I get I may be a bit reductive here. If this change makes Caliban too fucky I’ll revert it and/or revise

#

But overall I maintain a dim view of spammable movement options

ashen crown
#

Pursue Prey still in essence goes against trying to reduce so many micro decisions per turn. I don’t think the change you made was considering the literal balance of Pursue Prey or anything

vagrant grotto
#

Yeah no absolutely I don’t have any issues with the balance

#

I have every problem with how it adds a yes/no question to answer after every instance of knockback (which itself is a yes/no question)

ashen crown
#

Kai was talking on points regarding overcoming weaknesses and the balance letting the frame have a stronger identity with a focused playstyle, and while that is true and I agree with it it’s not really addressing the core reason the change exists, even if it does address a small aspect contributing to its existence

umbral sluice
#

Maybe it will feel like shit! I can't know without trying it

#

Cali is my favourite frame so I did want to try this version out

vagrant grotto
#

Yeah, my change is gonna change Caliban from a “I use knockback to move and also damage boost” to just “I use knockback to damage boost” and cut out the piecemeal knockback pathing puzzle

#

WRT this: I can absolutely appreciate that these tools encourage specific execution while also saying “okay, this is a bit much for me”

It’s tactical (nice!) but requires high execution (not so nice!) and high execution in TTRPGs tends to lead to analysis paralysis for most folks. I’m balancing for the casuals over the pros here

#

Join meeeeeeeeeeee (in the rules-user sense at least)

muted blaze
#

WRT?

vagrant grotto
#

With Regards To

muted blaze
#

I think unfortunately

#

The types of peeps to use these rules are:

  • Pro GMs on newer groups
  • Not casuals
vagrant grotto
#

Also for more reading regarding finding optimal paths: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Travelling_salesman_problem

Travelling salesman problem

In the theory of computational complexity, the travelling salesman problem (TSP) asks the following question: "Given a list of cities and the distances between each pair of cities, what is the shortest possible route that visits each city exactly once and returns to the origin city?" It is an NP-hard problem in combinatorial optimization, import...

muted blaze
#

I refuse to use TSP on my TTRPG

vagrant grotto
muted blaze
#

No 😔

vagrant grotto
muted blaze
#

The most optimal path is "fuck it we ball"

vagrant grotto
#

That’s what I’m here for: reducing the steps between “fuck it” and “we ball”

muted blaze
#

"Fuck ball"

vagrant grotto
#

But you know my take

umbral sluice
#

the most optimal route is the one i decide on arbitrarily because i'm just that good

muted blaze
umbral sluice
vagrant grotto
vagrant grotto
#

But yeah like, I’ll freely admit that I have not played lancer as much as some people may think I have. Some of my takes may be off-base and/or incongruous with your lived experiences, and you should take all my takes with a healthy dose of salt

But I’ve played enough to recognize design patterns that affect the pacing and player behavior of my games in ways I don’t prefer

vagrant grotto
#

Been thinking about Goblin design now

ashen crown
#

VALKYRION! KILL THE GOBLIN’S LITURGICODE TRAIT, AND MY LIFE IS YOURS! (joke)

vagrant grotto
#

Thinking about how I’d combine it with reactive code

ashen crown
#

Yeah as the only frame with base +2 tech attack having Litirgicode as another piece of floating accuracy is just unnecessary

ashen crown
#

I think as a stat stick but just for hacking, Goblin doesn’t need a lot of good or frequently relevant traits, but it needs like. One. And Liturgicode ain’t it

vagrant grotto
#

I think it should be less of a Stat stick tbf

ashen crown
vagrant grotto
#

Nah that’s fine

ashen crown
#

Glad to hear that’s too iconic imo

vagrant grotto
#

It’s the deaths head of hacking

ashen crown
#

Even still Death’s Head’s traits are still a little more proactive + require decisionmaking

#

Same w/ Tortuga

vagrant grotto
#

My thing I’m thinking about is

Reactive Code
When the Goblin is targeted by a Tech Attack, the attacker gains Lock On.
#

Or some kind of hacking mark

ashen crown
#

Oh that’s a pretty big departure

#

What about expanding Reactive Code to trigger off any tech action rather than just tech attacks, if you’re planning to cut down on the effect?

vagrant grotto
#

Maybe

ashen crown
#

Most other anti-tech stuff does that anyway so the standardization would be nice

vagrant grotto
#

Aren’t many of those tbf but sure

umbral sluice
#

Out of curiosity, not judgement: Why do you think Reactive Code needs to get the wrench?

vagrant grotto
#

I’d also use this as an excuse to buff Symbiosis

ashen crown
#

Tbh, Reactive Code is a pretty niche trigger for a pretty strong effect. I don’t think it contributes enough to power budget to need cutting down to buff Symbiosis. Vs Liturgicode which is the only actual positive trait Goblin has (and it’s boring)

#

I’ve never played with a Goblin, so as a genuine question when was the last time you saw a Goblin tech attacked?

#

I’m assuming it wouldn’t happen often even despite it’s low heat cap

#

Wait hang on I actually see the vision now

#

If you let Reactive Code trigger off of Allies benefitting from Symbiosis it triggers more often thereby prompting a nerf- that makes sense

vagrant grotto
ashen crown
#

… I’m getting ahead of things sorry

ashen crown
vagrant grotto
umbral sluice
#

Eh I'm not sure I agree with it slowing down play any more than say a Vorpal Gun, but the second point I 100% can get behind

vagrant grotto
umbral sluice
#

Like the only time you'd want to tech attack a goblin is when there's no one else, it's just not a good idea so reactive code feels bad when it just sits there collecting dust

umbral sluice
vagrant grotto
#

Yeah so I figure Lock On is a small enough slap that also synergizes with autopod and Hacker as a talent

#

Also also: Vorpal Gun can’t Jam someone off turn from Range 20

vagrant grotto
umbral sluice
#

You make a point there

vagrant grotto
#

Like, don’t tempt me

ashen crown
#

I can’t begin to imagine how you’d rework Gorgon but I’m optimistic that you’ll figure something out

umbral sluice
#

Inherently anything that uses a large amount of reactions will slow things down a lot and that's a lancer thing rather than a Gorgon thing

#

Like I suppose you could cut Gaze entirely but how would the frame feel unique at that point

vagrant grotto
#

Besides the double reactions I’d likely leverage some of my defender design

#

Gaze is easy: Fascinate

#

Like, there’s ways to evoke the Gorgon-like sight and cognitohazard stuff

#

I do that with Mesmerist

ashen crown
#

Will Metastatic Paralysis be cut/changed? I’m hoping no

vagrant grotto
#

What’s that one again, the stun on a bad roll?

ashen crown
#

Ye

umbral sluice
#

The stun yes

vagrant grotto
#

I’d definitely cut it sorry

#

Or change it

ashen crown
#

Eh fair

vagrant grotto
#

Probably change it to a fascinate or something

umbral sluice
#

I don't think it's that oppressive but personally I'd like to see it not be a 2 turn stun effectively

ashen crown
#

As soon as the reason gets explained I tend to realize “yeah absolutely fair that makes sense”

vagrant grotto
#

If I didn’t overhaul the reaction system, I’d probably limit Gaze to 1/round you get 2 reactions

umbral sluice
#

End of next turn effects that happen on your turn just feel kind of shit, saying as someone who got structure stunned by a Hive swarm last game as a player

vagrant grotto
#

But yeah I’m sure you all know my stance on lancer’s reaction system at the moment

#

(If not: I think it should be 1/round like every other self respecting modern tactical rpg)

umbral sluice
#

Even if I don't think I've seen you say it before I've gathered that you're more a fan of Pathfinder 2e's reaction system

vagrant grotto
#

And 5e’s, and 4e’s

#

Like, yeah I know plenty of Lancer players love that

#

But popular vote does not inherently mean “healthy for gameplay”

#

And I don’t think it’s healthy for my tables at least

#

“Valk why don’t you play a different game”

That’s the thing folks: I already am, and I’m doing it with duct tape and paper clips

#

Every GM is, in some way

#

Some just more than others

umbral sluice
#

I will also agree with the players on generally liking lancer's reactions more, but simultaneously your point about it being not as healthy for the game is completely understood

vagrant grotto
#

It’s the same reason I cut Overcharge = extra action

umbral sluice
#

I can anecdotally speak that my pathfinder games where everyone has a single reaction (except me the fighter) moved a lot faster

#

Also not everyone having Reactive Strike (or overwatch in lancer context) is a big deal

vagrant grotto
#

I’m okay with exceptions in PF2E; guardian’s free reactions feel appropriate

#

4e also had that in epic tier

umbral sluice
#

Yeah extra reactions are all class limited and a feat cost, high level, or both

#

And maybe this is just my bias showing but that second reactive strike on fighter feels like a hell of a lot after running with just one up until then

#

Like it feels like more of a power bump if you get it

vagrant grotto
#

The major takeaway I have playing both Lancer and Pathfinder 2e is that players are ravenous for action economy… but that doesn’t mean you should feed them

steel apex
#

Do More Stuff is always gonna be attractive

#

I will say, I think 1/round reactions is actually pretty restrictive in a game that has as many reactions as lancer does

vagrant grotto
#

I honestly think many of Lancer's reactions could've been something else

steel apex
#

Even having to go "do I overwatch OR brace" with zero other reactions in existence feels like a rough choice

ashen crown
#

(point taken tho)

vagrant grotto
#

I mean, I see that in PF2e all the time. "Do I reactive strike or do I shield block" and tbh it works fine

steel apex
#

Sure but that's still a case where what you're doing in the specific order matters rather than "overwatch means I can get punked later"

vagrant grotto
#

I get the gist

#

but yeah no I've written some notes about a Reaction Hack

#

Overwatch is basically the gold standard reaction in my books

#

my other takeaway was "drones that trigger as reactions should just have their own reactions"

#

Most NPC reactions are pretty potent on their own that they'd be decent competition for Overwatch in terms of opportunity costs, so yeah

#

but yeah, just like the Talentless Hack, it's a dialogue instead of an ultimatum

#

"I'm limiting Reactions to 1/round. How would you need [X reaction] to change in order to keep it worthwhile to you?"

ashen crown
#

It does feel like at this point you’re making a Lancing in the Dark scale hack of Lancer rather than just making alt rules

vagrant grotto
#

listen that's only if I go through with Reactions

#

I'm not

ashen crown
#

Fair enough lol

vagrant grotto
#

that'd be its own thing

ashen crown
#

Still feels like the projects altogether are still grazing the concept. Not a bad thing just an observation

vagrant grotto
#

yeah, I'm trying to restrain myself from going off the deep(er) end

ashen crown
#

If I had free time I’d be so off the deep end I’d be exploring the bottom of the Mariana Trench

#

So I know the feeling lol

#

now that I have Vex’s permission I’m already working on a Slinger Alt

placid glacier
#

👀

ashen crown
# placid glacier 👀

Spoiler- I have several updates I’ve been wanting to push after the initial “idea onto paper” drafting that I haven’t gotten a chance to implement, so right now it’s Okay At Best™

#

I’d expound + link but this is kinda the wrong thread for it so if you want me to share so you can comment on it I can DM

placid glacier
#

I mean- I'd def be interested in having a look but dunno how much feedback I could give

ashen crown
steel apex
#

I would be a stone cold hypocrite to be like "nah these personal adjustments you're making based on your own design preferences are wrong, actually"

#

same with the caliban pursue prey thing

#

In the abstract I can see how reaction heavy builds stand to slow gameplay down

#

I mean not abstract, but from a big picture perspective, I KNOW it can happen

#

I suppose I'm not quite sure how I feel about it on a personal level, I know I think it's neat that you can have a reaction-based build and I do think to refigure how it works currently would be a pretty big undertaking, as simply going "1 reaction/round done" is going to have a devastating effect on a number of systems

#

I will say, that insofar as I think "drone based reactions should belong to the drone" isn't actually a terrible idea (though it would have some knock-on effects to be mindful of, such as those reactions no longer breaking Hidden if they don't come FROM the Hidden mech, etc), it doesn't feel like it would do much to address the principal issue of "lots of reactions gumming up the works"

#

that is, if a hydra player with 6 reactions per round is a problem, a Hydra with 1 reaction per round and 5 drones with 1 reaction per round each isn't much of a solution

muted blaze
#

@vagrant grotto hey valk, would it be cool if I posted recruitment for a playtest one shot thing here or would you rather I used the recruitment/lfg channels?

#

Just cos I'm only looking for 2 people and also recruitment channel scary

vagrant grotto
muted blaze
#

Asking to see if I can steal your cool playtest people

vagrant grotto
# steel apex that is, if a hydra player with 6 reactions per round is a problem, a Hydra with...

And yeah no I get you. One reason I haven’t seriously knuckled down on reactions is because it would mostly only handle a few builds that load up on them.

The other, obviously, being labor of going through the reactions and saying which is

  • worth a reaction
  • worth a 1/round passive
  • worth converting into a proactive Quick Action

I’ll say that this reaction hack does have some roots on the GM side, but it’s mostly from my personal experience playing Reaction-heavy builds. I personally don’t like how they need to be “always on” over the course of a round when the rounds are as long as Lancer’s, and I need a literal spreadsheet/notepad to keep track of which ones I’ve used and which I haven’t every round. It’s tiring and easy to miss an opportunity, which of course means there’s still a level of “reaction FOMO” even with Lancers more frequent reactions.

Regardless, yeah, there’s heavy nuance to it all, enough to deter me from seriously tackling a conversion

vagrant grotto
muted blaze
#

I'll slap a message in that forum you sent at some point

#

(but if anyone's interested before I formulate that message LMK)

umbral sluice
#

Is this more PPG playtesting?

#

I'd probably be interested depending on time and date

muted blaze
#

<t:1760896800:F>

muted blaze
vagrant grotto
#

Sometimes you’ve gotta eat your own dog food

umbral sluice
#

I'm usually free in that slot

muted blaze
#

Well if you and Valk are free at that time then I've got a full game

ashen crown
# vagrant grotto And yeah no I get you. One reason I haven’t seriously knuckled down on reactions...

I feel like the “having roots on the player side” is probably something that should be considered a build preference thing rather than a system preference thing. I love reaction heavy builds because it’s always on and when rounds are as long as Lancer, you wanna maximize the amount of game you can play between turns. Considering it from a GM + table brevity perspective seems like a wiser move because that affects everyone regardless of build. If it’s just for you the player you can always like. Not play a reaction build. Some players dislike certain playstyles, that’s not really an inherent system flaw.

#

Or maybe I’m missing something

muted blaze
#

Pros of reaction heavy: When rounds are long you have a way to remain interactive whilst waiting for your turn
Cons if reaction heavy: When rounds are long you have a way to remain interactive whilst waiting for your turn

vagrant grotto
#

When I’m a GM, I don’t want that to happen at my tables (as often)

#

I’m also mindful of how my reaction builds can gum up the game for other players

muted blaze
#

Would paraphrasing it to: "if someone really knows what they're doing, it's fine. If someone doesn't know what they're doing it's disastrous" be accurate?

umbral sluice
vagrant grotto
umbral sluice
vagrant grotto
#

Most people aren’t at that level of execution though, even if they think they are

ashen crown
vagrant grotto
#

If you’re a blitz chess grandmaster sure go off

#

I’m not expecting that at my tables though, which is why I try to rein some options in

muted blaze
#

Last time I went a reaction heavy build, I think I would have done it well but I spent too much of the game melting and on fire

ashen crown
muted blaze
#

And taking 28 damage from a kensei

umbral sluice
#

I doubt the intersection of the Lancer player and Blitz Chess Grandmaster Venn diagrams is particularly huge

vagrant grotto
muted blaze
#

Valk, DW I bring it up because I find it hilarious not because I'm salty

vagrant grotto
#

Alternatively, evil mode: “nice, nipped the reaction build in the bud”

muted blaze
#

As I deserved

ashen crown
#

I also feel like in my experience the Venn diagram between skill required for a reaction heavy build and the skill required running pseudo complex combats is nearly a circle, but that’s more a personal brain chemistry thing than anything

muted blaze
#

If you want me to stop bringing it up because it feels like I'm having a go at you begrudgingly pls say and I'll stop, but I just find that scenario very funny in retrospect

umbral sluice
vagrant grotto
vagrant grotto
umbral sluice
#

Valkfinder 2e remaster

vagrant grotto
#

I would need a fucking team for that let’s be real

#

Or more time on my hands than I’m willing to devote lol

ashen crown
umbral sluice
#

Hey you're already making Lancer: Valk Edition slowly

#

And I'm all here for it

vagrant grotto
#

Tbf, on some level, I think I’m making stuff that is slowly making the combat portion of the game more tolerable for me personally so that eventually I can feel comfortable running something long form without burning out

#

I’ve had game structures on my backburner for a while

muted blaze
#

The playtests are actually lancer Darwinian character creation

sudden cosmos
#

The apex of evolution is monaPanic for me in that case

granite saddle
# muted blaze <t:1760896800:F>

Can't do make it that day.
I know you've probably got your two players already, but just in case I'd rather you know to not count on me

vagrant grotto
#

Reminder I’m still looking for a couple folks: #1254229800952922193 message

granite saddle
#

I imagine you saw my application ?

#

If not well here it is

vagrant grotto
#

Yeah that means I have 2 per day right now

#
  • sat: Waterdragon, Smallest (not preferred)
  • Sun: Isa, Smallest (preferred)
granite saddle
#

Probs gonna be Maleghastin' it if I'm not taken so don't feel too bad if you only find enough people for sunday

ashen crown
#

Do you think Realm Shift could convincingly emulate a Calendula’s ability to deploy Void Husks?

muted blaze
#

Also valk did you check your calender?

vagrant grotto
vagrant grotto
#

But yeah @muted blaze hit me with the LL and allowed content and what have you

muted blaze
#

I'll make a channel for it when I get home

granite saddle
#

Well, you know (at least one of) them but I don't know how often they check in here so.
(I am talking about Tonysan and Xtra)

#

I also now know exactly what I'm bringing if I end up being chosen, unless some stuff has changed since it's been made.

twin escarp
#

If you have them they are like, the thing you use your reaction for

#

While Brace is an emergency button and overwatch is overall far less threatening than a reactive strike

#

And I think offensive reactions speed up fights more than they slow them down, rounds are slower but more things happen in them that advance the fight yknow

#

At least that's how it feels in my experience

#

Course that only applies if the party wins decisively enough that I don't play out till the very end of the sitrep and have the stragglers retreat

sudden cosmos
#

@vagrant grotto my party's down a person on Sunday (morning) so I can run a test combat with something else from PPG. Anything you want tested in a T2 environment?

#

It'll be facing a stort, an atlas, a white witch, and a toku.

muted blaze
#

Valk being bombarded with a bunch of random playtests over a 7 week span lmao

vagrant grotto
vagrant grotto
#

At least at the moment

#

Besides that, the other supports would love some feedback (zealot, ghost, capacitor)

#

I also crave Anchor feedback because I feel like there’s something not quite right with it yet and I don’t know what

sudden cosmos
#

I'll slap an anchor on the table and see what happens

ashen crown
#

I hope to get proven wrong about the anchor being very easy to “”use wrong””

sudden cosmos
#

Anchor in a gauntlet where it's got artillery vibing with it and some folks running interference

granite saddle
sudden cosmos
#

let's take tectonic wave for a spin

sudden cosmos
ashen crown
vagrant grotto
ashen crown
# vagrant grotto I do wonder what would’ve happened with an Aegis in the same situation

Good point- it was a control with a lot of size 1 and 2 terrain, so the Aegis would likely have had a slightly easier time navigating while also being able to permanently set up camp in a CZ rather than temporarily deploying lodestone now and then. The constant of having it always up could potentially have caused it to be relevant at times when Lodestone didn’t have the chance to.

However it would’ve had a much harder time actually removing characters from the Control Zone and would’ve likely reached a sort of “now what?” style action Econ when camped. In theory.

It could’ve definitely panned out much the same indicating a user error rather than a design error (which would be good, you always have outliers in data), but there’s several factors that could’ve prompted things to be very different.

vagrant grotto
#

Yeah tbf Lodestone can be used even while up, so it can maintain uptime as long as it has heat

#

And the quick action to spare

ashen crown
#

Moreso about “does it have the actions for the upkeep or does it wanna use null grav + gun”

#

Which again, was probably user error

vagrant grotto
#

Ah got it

#

Makes sense to judge it round by round

ashen crown
#

They were untemplated too as well as having one of them as a reinforcement which means they had to do the “run to combat” run twice collectively, which was also probably contributing to user error

#

Anchor in general looks like they like boost tho

vagrant grotto
#

That’s map dependency yeah

sudden cosmos
#

So far I've got an ultra anchor and a bombard in a gauntlet sitrep

#

I think it'll ultimately be funny

ashen crown
#

Yeah the anchor definitely sounds like they’re in a better position to be used effectively

vagrant grotto
#

@umbral sluice @granite saddle I have one other taker for Saturday; that day still good for you both?

umbral sluice
#

all good for me

#

I'll get the share code in a bit I'm going to eat now

vagrant grotto
#

Great!

@sudden cosmos letting you know I’m going for Saturday over Sunday, so thank you for expressing interest but we’ll play together again some other time

umbral sluice
#

also @vagrant grotto do you want me to see about getting someone I know into the game? not sure if we have a 4th yet

granite saddle
#

It's in #1278064902958747699 now anyways so it's basically public applications

vagrant grotto
vagrant grotto
#

Okay! Key takeaways from today’s playtest:

  • “Fascinated” (only draw line of sight to source) is fucking rough with an artillery-ranged character.
    • Prism shot the Emp with lock in and then dipped behind an obstruction
    • thinking of either allowing vision to adjacent spaces, or only applying this magnetic effect while the prism is in line of sight?
  • Prism doesn’t need burst 2 on its gun, and maybe not even AP
  • Tracking projections was hard in Foundry
  • Elite/Ultra Occultist is a menace with the extra turn
    • Emp needed to delete the drones with AOE every chance they could
    • either I should reduce the Jammed effect or I should limit it to grunts and drones deployed on a previous turn
  • Hatchet is solid
    • there’s a question over whether Cleaving Retrieval should trigger around the weapon or the Hatchet; the latter means the “safe distance” from Hatchet is actually beyond a Blast 2 area around the weapon instead of Blast 1. On one hand it would make the Weapon a “mine” easy to track, but on the other it may leave the hatchet range hurting
  • Ghost Paradox state is neat quick action baiting and I’m okay with that
#

Moloch drone has some weird interactions with grapple that I think I’m ultimately okay with (namely contested hull being +0 for it but it’s okay it’s still an action sink to escape)

#

Occultist’s range is actually pretty short because of the darts but I think that’s also okay

#

After the one flock drone exploded for jammed no other drone survived (I probably should’ve played one defensively for Overshield and condition clear tbh)

steel apex
#

it strikes me as a very clear play/counterplay dynamic

vagrant grotto
#

Yes absolutely agreed

#

It will probably osmose over to NARCISSUS override too

vagrant grotto
#

Also @muted blaze relevant for next week:

  • Reactor Stabilizer protecting from overheat damage was useful for a 0 ENG Displacer swallowtail with Adaptive Reactor, but it was living on the knife’s edge. One enemy with Shredded would’ve left them wide open
  • A basic “by the books” Caliban didn’t notice the loss of Pursue Prey but did notice the speed bump and the lower pressure to pad HP with stuff like Reinforced Frame CB
granite saddle
#

What can I say, I like living life on the edge... (I don't actually, I was so very relieved to see no major heatgunners or shred-capable NPCs in the OpFor)

vagrant grotto
# 
Diffraction Beam
Tags: Heavy Rifle
Weapon Stats: +1/+2/+3, +1 Accuracy, Range 10 or Burst 1, 5/7/9 Energy
On Hit: If the Prism consumed LOCK ON against the target, while the Prism is within their line of sight, they can only draw line of sight to the Prism’s spaces. This lasts until the end of their next turn.

This weapon does not affect allies.

Revisions for Diffraction Beam. Removed AP clause, added a "if Prism is in LOS, you can only see the Prism" effect. Wording is new for this effect, so suggestions to tighten the wording are welcome

vagrant grotto
# 
Diffraction Beam
Tags: Heavy Rifle
Weapon Stats: +1/+2/+3, +1 Accuracy, Range 10 or Burst 1, 5/7/9 Energy
On Hit: If the Prism consumed LOCK ON against the target, while the Prism is within the target’s line of sight, they may only draw line of sight to the Prism’s spaces until the end of their next turn.

This weapon does not affect allies.

Slightly changed the wording

#

applied the same wording template to NARCISSUS Override

#

Overall feeling pretty good with the playtests and changes I'm making today. I think the next few NPCs on my testing block are Anchor and revised Capacitor.

ashen crown
#

If it’s main gimmick is consuming Lock On as part of the attack, is the inherent accuracy necessary? The damage when in single target mode is subpar for artillery i suppose

vagrant grotto
#
  1. It's a primary Defender
  2. Artillery should sacrifice damage for their range
ashen crown
#

Fair enough

#

I was comparing to the Operator is all, but compared to, say, a Rainmaker or Bombard it’s in line

#

I was citing the damage as a reason it was able to “earn” the inherent accuracy

vagrant grotto
#

I could maybe see 6/8/10 now that AP is off the table

ashen crown
#

Actually I’m realizing I still don’t quite get why it has inherent accuracy if it wants to be consuming Lock On as much as possible

vagrant grotto
#

holdover

ashen crown
#

Gotcha- think you’ll keep it around until further notice or cut it?

vagrant grotto
#

I can tweak it to 6/8/10 and cut the accuracy

ashen crown
#

That sounds good to me if you wanna reduce the amount of floating accuracy in the roster

vagrant grotto
#

it just makes sense given that it wants to eat lock ons

#

maybe shuffle the accuracy to Shardsplitter?

ashen crown
#

it also outranges a rebake operator handily, but it can’t multiattack as freely as a Bombard and Rainmaker can, so the +1 damage to sit between the two damage bands also tracks

vagrant grotto
#

shardsplitter was fine for damage today

#

Tentatively adding 2 Heat (Self) to Occultist's Flock Drones

#

basically introducing this to slow its roll a bit; may decide to use 1 Heat (Self) instead given its low heat cap of 6

ashen crown
#

If it happened with Magpie then I wouldn’t be surprised if it happened with something the Cultist can do

#

On that topic- Should Fan Charge have self heat? Could make overheating the zealot more accessible while preventing the zealot from purely spamming Fan Charge. Or would that just make the Zealot’s heat runaway be too intense?

vagrant grotto
#

nah fan charge is fine, it requires Zeal to work

ashen crown
#

Ah right, good point

vagrant grotto
#

if Mirage can Glitch Scanners 2 folks for 0 heat, Zealot can do it too

ashen crown
#

How come it’s the flock drones getting heat rather than Reap the Chaff btw?

ashen crown
#

Having another NPC with a base kit movement multiplier is pretty warranted anyway, from 1st party all there is is Mirage and Leech

vagrant grotto
ashen crown
#

That makes a lot of sense yeah

vagrant grotto
#

the Emperor felt hella pressure to get these AOE jamming pylons off the board, and with 2 turns/round the Occultist was just churning them out

#

So heat feels correct, as well as adding the clause of "not deployed this round" to Reap

ashen crown
#

sounds like a more elegant solution than like. 1/round or something. I might take a leaf out of that book for the Slinger Alt I’m designing

vagrant grotto
#

Thinking of replacing Anchor's Siege Armor with this:

PONDEROUS
Trait
The Anchor receives only half of incoming push, pull, or knockback from hostile sources.
#

for one, it's the last "Lancer Core Book" holdover trait

#

for two, I think that the Anchor doesn't actually need Siege Armor

#

for three, it's been noted that it feels weird how the Anchor doesn't have Heavy Frame or the like, but I don't want to include Yet Another Heavy Frame mech

ashen crown
ashen crown
vagrant grotto
#

correct

#

There’s a lot of times where I find Heavy Frame frustratingly uninteractive, especially for size 3 characters

#

So I’d rather deter involuntary movement than quash it outright

#

In other news, now that I’ve removed Siege Armor, I’m thinking of reducing Lodestone to Burst 2

vagrant grotto
#

But yeah, every playtest this project is feeling better and better

dapper goblet
#

Glad you came to a similar conclusion on the occultist and im not nuts

muted blaze
#

Valk, LMK if you have any new balance patches you'd wanna introduce before my game

#

No rush ofc

vagrant grotto
granite saddle
vagrant grotto
granite saddle
#

Sure, we'll see about adjustments when we get there, for now that probably works

sudden cosmos
#

Anchor playtest canceled due to Thanksgiving PensiveBread

#

But should be on for next week

vagrant grotto
#

So, after considering the Occultist yesterday, I was looking at some of the optionals and how they may be intense. Jealous Flock is a powerful one, and Harvest Pyres makes me sweat on a second read

#

I may reduce the burn on Harvest pyres to match Napalm's 2/3/4 on its optionals? and I may restrict Harvest Pyres to Reap the Chaff only

#

but then again, I did dial back the Occultist's potential by nerfing FLOCK and Reap

vagrant grotto
#

I'm adding the 1/round tag to Harvest instead

ashen crown
#

I will note that Jealous Flock giving Heat resistance is a potential point of contention due to the fact it’s all Heat, including self heat. And compared to something like Greater Investiture (from the Rebake) the investment to get it is pretty trivial in comparison

#

Then again, NPC heat math and budget is pretty different than players

vagrant grotto
#

Does Greater Investiture end if you shoot the Priest with Ushabti

ashen crown
#

Nope, it ends when the target ends a turn or the priest dies.

#

Oh wait I see

#

Okay fair enough

#

With the Flock Drone deployment nerf I suppose it makes sense to keep as is in that case

vagrant grotto
#

Update to 1.12!

itch.io
Update to 1.12!

What’s Changed 1.12.0 Nerf Occultist to restrict its power when Elite or Ultra. Restrict Prism and Mesmerist “fascinate”-type effects to only function while the source of the effect is within Li...

granite saddle
#

No hp boost to compensate for the loss of siege armor ?

vagrant grotto
#

nope

granite saddle
#

it does have 2 armor, yeah

vagrant grotto
#

it has the same HP/Armor/Evasion statline as Kai's demolisher

#

and Kai's Goliath seems to be doing well enough without Siege Armor

#

so I'm taking this for a spin

#

I may reduce its armor and bump its HP if things change

granite saddle
vagrant grotto
#

yes, melee resistance, and I've seen it last a decently long time vs ranged in practice

#

but yeah I just had a feeling about Anchor so I followed the feel

granite saddle
#

Fair, fair. Just keeping an eye on it should do then.

vagrant grotto
#

yeah, and we're due for playtesting on it anyway

#

One thing I didn't change yet but may in the future is the size of Prism's anti-seeking aura

muted blaze
vagrant grotto
#

Burst 2 may be fine for that instead of burst 1

#

god I keep churning them out don't I

muted blaze
#

I had these saved

#

I was waiting

vagrant grotto
#

this is why I don't send emails about it, everyone subscribed would hate me lol

muted blaze
#

I'll do it again for 1.13

vagrant grotto
#

I'm hopeful about the Prism and Mesmerist "Fascinate" changes

granite saddle
#

yeah those seem good

vagrant grotto
#

counterplay is getting out of LoS

granite saddle
#

and stops the NPC from just camping away

vagrant grotto
#

and it works for Prism since the "main body" can hide duck behind obstructions but the projector can be out in the open

granite saddle
#

Fits into both themes too, you need to be as flashy(visible on the map) as possible

vagrant grotto
#

"if you're gonna taunt someone, you gotta actually fight them afterwards" vibe

#

I know Knight's compelled duel slightly violates that but I make up for it by making the rest of its base kit get high value from interfacing with the duel target

#

oh also fun thing: Fascinate now naturally overrides old Fascinates

#

because if you can't draw line of sight to the old fascinate it stops working

#

oh also @muted blaze if you want an LCP for heat self on recharge HMU

#

who am I kidding, here it is

granite saddle
vagrant grotto
#

what happens when you get hit by the same effect twice from different folks

#

like if you get hit by Osiris 1st Gate from 2 different goblins

#

In any case, these are the outstanding "needs info/pondering" bugs:

Veteran Thunderfall    21    Long time to activate
Overcharge Rerolls    24    Save-based characters get little mileage out of OC rerolls
Vulture Gameplay    15    After 2 rounds, nothing to do
Brigand Jury-Rigged    20    Difficult to track when using different penalties for different builds across an entire opfor
Vulture Stats    16    Overshield + Armor is a potent combination
Hatchet Cleaving Retrieval    8    Should it be centered on the weapon, or centered on the Hatchet?
#

Besides looking for feedback on the recently-updated crew of

  • Anchor
  • Capacitor
  • Ghost
  • Occultist
  • Prism
#

but yeah ultimately just want some additional gamefeel reports on Vulture, too

ashen crown
#

What do the numbers mean?

vagrant grotto
#

page number

#

honestly ignore the page numbers, half of them are out of date

vagrant grotto
#

But yeah current comfy NPCs are

  • Hatchet
  • Knight
  • Mesmerist
  • Napalm
  • Torrent
  • Zealot

I think those ones are in a decent spot at the moment, unless I get egregious feedback to the contrary

ashen crown
#

It took a while for Zealot and Mesmerist to reach comfy status lol

vagrant grotto
#

Like, if I had to lock down PPG changes tomorrow, those would be the ones I would be the least worried about

#

And yeah it took a hot minute lol

#

But Zeal finally feels potent enough without being out of line, and FanCharge feels useful without being overwhelming

And Mesmerist has a stronger tech attack feedback loop now, and I’m not concerned about its optionals anymore

ashen crown
#

HOnestly after hearing the Mirage comparison I'm actually kinda excited to use a Zealot next time I get the chance- movement multiplier NPCs able to compete with Mirage are rare, so having one be a frontliner feels exciting

muted blaze
#

Hmmm

vagrant grotto
#

I’m hopeful that Capacitor is in a better spot, and just needs some number tweaks

muted blaze
#

I might overhaul my NPC roster

#

for next sun

#

eh, be reet

ashen crown
#

I'm sorry "be reet"?

muted blaze
#

English midlands slang

#

Be alright

#

Oh northern accordingg to googgle

#

Guess I'm a northerner

vagrant grotto
#

Like legit I think the ones I’m looking for feedback on are proooooobably fine? Anchor is the one I’m most concerned about at the moment, followed by Occultist and Prism due to the larger changes this patch

The Supports I think are okay; Ghost may be swingy though depending on PC builds. Capacitor needs number checks as mentioned, as does Vulture (And how it interacts with Loading)

vagrant grotto
#

Abuse case I realize I inadvertently curtailed today: on patch 1.11, it was possible for the occultist and its allies to simply shoot its drones to make them explode for Harvest Pyres

#

Now that it’s 1/round it’s still a mystery threat but not as abusable

#

Though at the moment there’s still an incentive for the Occultist and its buddies to pop a drone on their own, but that’s part of its design at least

vagrant grotto
#

Frankly at this point my best two indicators of “is this overtuned” for me are

  1. Looking at the optionals and considering them and saying “I don’t feel comfy running this”
  2. Actually running the NPC myself
#

Feeling a bit of that looking over the Anomaly bits and pieces

velvet cairn
# 
OPERATOR Anomaly, Tier 2 Mech
[ STATS ]
  H: 3 | A: 3 | S: 3 | E: 3
  STRUCT: 1/1 | ARMOR: 0 | HP: 12/12
  STRESS: 1/1 | HEATCAP: 0/8 | SPD: 5
  SAVE: 12 | EVADE: 12 | EDEF: 12
  SENS: 10 | SIZE: 1 | ACT: 1
[ FEATURES ]
  RAPTOR PLASMA RIFLE (II), TRACE DRIVE (II),
  STEP (II), SELF-ERASURE (II),
  FADE GENERATOR (II), FORTRESS (II),
  >//[ERR: DATA NOT FOUND] (II), Anomaly Systems and Traits (II),
  Doppelgänger (II)

Behold!

#

Clearly the Fade Generator is a Dataveil
and the Marker Rifle, uh
just had ten duracell batteries crammed into it to juice it up

muted blaze
#

And it's teleportation

#

It would be funny if it was a goliath

placid glacier
#

fuck- I meant to give feedback stuff for 1.11 because I did some stuff with Anomalies and double Kensei but I forgot

#

uuh fuck it

vagrant grotto
granite saddle
#

Neither of those got changed in 1.12 so they're still perfectly up to date even !

vagrant grotto
#

Kensei got a minor wording change for clarity (non functional change) and that’s it so yes still relevant

#

Gotta know how my problem child is doing

granite saddle
#

Anomaly or kensei ? /J

vagrant grotto
#

Yes

muted blaze
#

Surely Anomaly is a problem child by design

#

/j

vagrant grotto
#

A problem for players, not for me lol

#

It becomes a problem for me when players start raising pitchforks and torches lol

placid glacier
#

well I was gonna bring up how the untemplated Kensei still got focused down in less than a turn (players knowing it's a high priority target much like a Sniper/Witch/Operator/ect) but seeing how you're saying that's more by design I think it might be a moot point :P

vagrant grotto
#

That’s not necessarily design though

#

Hmmmm

#

This is the perpetual problem for lancer npc balance

placid glacier
#

mhm

vagrant grotto
#

Most normal NPCs are innately fragile enough to go down quickly (even if they’re like a Goliath or something)

#

So the real “defense” is “there are 5 other threats to deal with at the same time, choose wisely”

#

If something is 100% always public enemy number 1 then I’ve fucked up

placid glacier
#

yeah- bringing it up because both a templated goliath with 3 structure and a witch with Tear Down active were on the board, and the players still went for the anomaly Kensei duo

vagrant grotto
#

Have they fought a Kensei before, to establish a Prior?

#

Like, a prior understanding of them

placid glacier
#

yep, they do have prior understanding of Kensei, I've been using the thing a lot ^^

vagrant grotto
#

Because sometimes folks will vaporize the unknown out of fear

#

Ah okay

#

Fuck

placid glacier
#

It may not be a kensei problem specifically tho and more how my party reacts to Strikers in general

#

... Then again when I fielded that templated hatchet it was actually able to escape which is pretty rare when I field strikers against my party

placid glacier
vagrant grotto
#

Yeah no and there aren’t always strong defender/control aggro-draw effects in Lancer too

#

Wrt prioritizing strikers and how to protect them

#

Hrrrrrmmmm

#

Might bump the hp/evasion back up

#

I’m certain I don’t want to increase the Overshield on parry, because if it’s too high AND repeatable it’s unfun

placid glacier
#

continuation of this feedback and because I forgot to mention the encounter type

Encounter: Extraction (Gank Type Variant from Wallflower)

Torrent Addendum

  • Worked well when I brought it back in a later turn to disrupt player formations
  • Worked well as an aggro drawing effect when brought in as a reinforcement and players didn't find it too hard to counter

Anomaly

  • Very much more a DM sided observation but I felt like Spatial Rend wasn't doing too much to deter my party from teleporting, because the 1 ap energy and heat is not that deterring when the alternative is staying within range of an aggressive striker/defender, so my players just ate the damage and heat tax anyway
vagrant grotto
#

Even if it’s akin to Deathcounter…

#

Noted, thank you!

placid glacier
#

maybe have the ap and heat ramp with teleport distance?

#

that was my first immediate thought after the session but idk what you'd go with

vagrant grotto
#

Yeah no that’s a thought

#

I’ll write this down in the tracker

placid glacier
vagrant grotto
#

Scaling based on half the distance teleported may do the trick without going overboard…

vagrant grotto
placid glacier
#

yeah I was gonna say if by distance is too much, distance halved could also work

vagrant grotto
#

Or maybe I swallow my pride and make it resistance instead of OS

ashen crown
#

Idea: make it armor terrible idea actually I just thought about it for a sec

dapper goblet
#

i actually strongly feel that OS should be bumped from my kensei tests

vagrant grotto
ashen crown
#

Ya fair. Bumping the Overshield is probably enough if it’s not doing the Kensei much anyway

dapper goblet
#

the numbers are just pretty low - even with nerfed damage on the sheathed profile, losing the heat+action to sheath and then ALSO sacrificing the extra damage profile to make it happen

#

it just feels really hard to justify for an OS thats like barely 10% of its functional hp

#

(or, was in 1.10, dont know if it went up in 11)

placid glacier
#

I think it went down in 11 actually

vagrant grotto
#

The good thing about resistance is it’s easier scaling and more intuitive to fall off afterwards

#

I don’t know

dapper goblet
#

OS makes it absorb aux spamming a bit better which i think is notable and unique

vagrant grotto
#

I mean it has armor for that

dapper goblet
#

a lot of npcs have resistance in some form, short-form overshield a bit distinct

#

i dunno, could see it working well either way

vagrant grotto
#

And aux spamming doesn’t need a nerf

sudden cosmos
#

The only thoughts I've heard from my players about anomaly so far has been the concerning moral implications of Awakening

dapper goblet
vagrant grotto
ashen crown
sudden cosmos
#

"what do you mean by 'safely remove'" it means you get a little buddy to hang with

#

But them in your dataslate and have them become a cool friend who's fun to be with.

#

Alternatively, let your rapid burst jump jets be a guy

vagrant grotto
#

Having 3 nascent NHPs in your mech should make your life more complicated, not less

ashen crown
#

"What happens with this new guy???" well either you deal with it, find the nearest buyer/Horizon workshop, or start taking new license/talent ranks

sudden cosmos
#

Me getting hit by awakening would be a nightmare (for my GM)

dapper goblet
#

"go ahead, give me narrative implications. coward."

sudden cosmos
#

The last time I got narrative implications, my hecatoncheires pilot declared himself Tyrannocleave and The Saint of Dawn.

umbral sluice
#

oh i just read Awakening

sudden cosmos
#

I will become worse when enabled.

umbral sluice
#

huh

ashen crown
#

I will say I'm not exactly sure how to narratively run Retroactive Vendetta

umbral sluice
#

the Ramifications

ashen crown
#

The rest I can figure out tho lmao

vagrant grotto
#

Some events in the past personally wronged them

sudden cosmos
umbral sluice
#

"see that scourer there? his name is John, you despise John, and he despises you even more"

#

then narrate how you were childhood friends to enemies or something

ashen crown
#

I wanna run an all anomaly combat where as many of the NPCs as possible have "this fucks with the narrative" abilities. As a one time thing for my campaign.

#

Just a full on fictohazard zone

vagrant grotto
#

It’s juicier if you’re fighting a character you were formerly sympathetic to

ashen crown
#

Which I think would be Awakening, Mind Freak, Revisionist History, Counterfactualize, and maybe Self-Mechanization

#

Retroactive Vendetta is context dependent

vagrant grotto
#

Rusty but he learns a dark secret about you and then cannot abide you

#

Don’t change what the players did, change a consequence of the outcome

sudden cosmos
#

Gundam brained GMs using retroactive vendetta to have Quattro turn back into Char

ashen crown
#

Too bad Retroactive Vendetta can't turn NPC Allies into Enemies

dapper goblet
#

it can if you change it to

vagrant grotto
umbral sluice
ashen crown
#

I'm not actually doing it that's really feels bad

placid glacier
umbral sluice
#

you're the GM you can be evil sometimes

vagrant grotto
umbral sluice
#

i can be trusted

dapper goblet
#

some days you gotta void the voided warranty

#

...but dont make your players hate you unless its funny

umbral sluice
#

voiding the warranty so hard we're circling back around to heaven

ashen crown
#

I'm also reading Mass Inversion- how does that interact with Synthetic Muscle Netting's "always bigger/the same size and characters being grappled?"

vagrant grotto
ashen crown
#

Cool just checking if it was a case of "SMN modifies base size definition and is thust effectively shrunk" or "SMN takes effect after inversion, thereby going by the new definition of larger or same size"

vagrant grotto
#

SMN happens before

umbral sluice
#

SMN becoming anti SMN is really interesting

ashen crown
#

Yeah, because it means SMN users need to grapple larger characters to maintain control of grapples. Or grapple multiple characters.

vagrant grotto
#

Yeah

#

It’s topsy turvy town

#

But yeah if anyone wants to try Resistance Parry Kensei be my guest and lemme know how it goes

#

Resistance instead of Overshield

ashen crown
#

I personally wanna stick by the Overshield

#

... ya know when I actually get to use the Kensei -~-

vagrant grotto
#

Feel free to try a “overshield until end Of turn” or “for this attack only” clause

ashen crown
#

Would indefinite overshield be too much?

vagrant grotto
#

I mean that’s what it is right now

ashen crown
#

Ah okay

muted blaze
granite saddle
#

I once again stick to my "lower hp, higher eva, and bunch higher parry OS" idea because it makes threatening the kensei right back a viable strategy (because it's more worth it to parry now)
Also because soulslike-inspiration-wise, I find "dodging and parrying blows" more accurate than "facetank it lol"

#

100% an opinion, and mine alone at that, but by god will I die on this hill (I really won't actually, dw)

vagrant grotto
vagrant grotto
#

There’s a million ways to tweak these damn numbers

#

If you wanna try one lemme know how it goes

#

“The Kensei becomes IMMUNE to the triggering attack’s damage, but not its other effects”

#

Million ways

#

Two million ways

placid glacier
granite saddle
vagrant grotto
#

One for every parry mechanic since Sekiro

placid glacier
#

and then there is one, singular ronin

sudden cosmos
#

Having an NPC be a defender by the merits of being a dodgetank seems kinda funny

ashen crown
#

Yeah that’s the Mesmerist

#

It’s called dodgeTANK for a reason

placid glacier
#

was the Extrude Knife on Hatchet combo tested in 1.11?

placid glacier
#

Bug Report: I forgot when this change happened but the new Split the Sea still has the old 3/Scene tag which... doesn't really make sense with the new implementation

image.png
vagrant grotto
vagrant grotto
vagrant grotto
#

Looking through my NPC catalogue through the lens of a Hacker 2 user and I’m seeing quite a few cases where turning off techs is useful

placid glacier
#

after thinking on it for a while- while I love the flavor of the 40mm hand cannon I just... Haven't found a use for it every time I've tried to use the optional

#

most of the time the kensei can close distance easy enough to get a swing in and when I do engage, my players generally don't pull away

so it becomes a slugfest that the threat of the weapon can't really punish escapes with. so, when I take the optional it kinda just feels like I'm running a base Kensei

vagrant grotto
#

I make an NPC that wants to wreck your face at close range and PCs just dive headlong into it videogames

#

The “able to close distance” part is noted though

vagrant grotto
#

If that’s so then I should probably kill the shuffle and see what happens

#

I was originally warned off of a pure Immobilize but it seems like it really doesn’t need to worry about that even with threat 2

placid glacier
#

uuh I actually usually just. unsheathe first and then close whatever remaining distance I need with standard move (which. I can because of aformentioned slugfesting) then skirmish which- is probably not intentional if your mind went to the 2 space shuffle first which uh. oops.

vagrant grotto
#

Plus now “empty unsheathe” is a quick action

placid glacier
#

ah I see I may have misread how that unsheathe works then

vagrant grotto
#

Charged profile requires that you be sheathed since the start of your turn when you attack yeah

#

If you unsheathe early you lose the benefit

#

So basically, if you force the Kensei to unsheathe without attacking, you’ve “won”

placid glacier
#

that is my mistake then- oops.

I've been thinking it was

"unsheathe QA -> Skirmish with Charged Profile"

vagrant grotto
#

It’s action taxed to hell as a result

#

Oh no nope not that

#

The skirmish must be sheathed

#

After which, it unsheathes

#

Then you can activate sheathe again

placid glacier
#

my mistake oops

vagrant grotto
#

This is INCREDIBLY useful context lolololol

placid glacier
#

^^ yeah uh... that is my mistake sorry for the bungled data I've been giving

#

accidently fucking up data collection by just. being dumb and not reading the enemy correctly videogames

muted blaze
#

It happens

ashen crown
#

Which sitrep do you think a Prism would operate better in- a control or an escort?

#

(Assuming CRB sitrep rules)

ashen crown
#

Also is Vulture + Occultist a risky combo?

vagrant grotto
vagrant grotto
ashen crown
#

Oh good point, Escort it is!

ashen crown
#

Allies in the area are not valid targets for ranged attacks made from outside the area.
Just so I’m reading this right- characters partially within the Lodestone area are still valid targets for ranged attacks so long as the spaces outside Lodestone are targeted, correct ?

#

The text differs slightly from Aegis defense net, so I’m trying to read it and see if it translates the same

#

(If it doesn’t that translates to very bad things for the Prism)

#

Terrible idea for a Sitrep: “Too Many Cooks in the Kitchen”

Use Occultists, Lurkers, Engineers, Titan-Snare Barricades, and Latch-Drone Supports

sudden cosmos
#

A humble hydra

ashen crown
#

Broke: Trying to make one NPC a Hydra equivalent
Woke: The entire OpFor is a singular Hydra

placid glacier
ashen crown
#

I know giving an Anomaly multiple Anomaly optionals is “voiding the warranty,” but I do think if you were to put a single Doppelgänger Anomaly in a Sitrep, giving it a second optional like Spacial Rend or Mass Inversion sounds fun as the players now have to figure out who on earth is causing it

dapper goblet
#

I sometimes do multi-nomalies. Just be careful with how you do it

ashen crown
#

Ofc

vagrant grotto
#

Wait

#

No

#

Incorrect

#

Aegis says if you’re in the area you get the benefit

#

Same here with Lodestone

#

Partially inside is inside

#

Why is this bad for prism

ashen crown
#

If the Projector is outside Lodestone and the Prism itself is inside Lodestone, then the Projector is intargetable

vagrant grotto
#

lol. True

ashen crown
#

That's not bad for the prism itself, just concerning for its opposition

vagrant grotto
#

Prism wording continues to plague me lol

ashen crown
#

Tho I guess a similar thing applies if the Main Prism is inside a Defense net but the projector is outside

vagrant grotto
#

Yup

ashen crown
#

It could in theory get away witihout changes, and just be a weird exploit, but that's up to you

#

Functionally any artillery could do the same, and they don't get punishment for it

#

Really just depends on "what is the cost+benefit ratio of the Prism's Projector?" and if cancelling out the "projector being a target/hard to hit" costs causes too much of a power spike

#

Since this applies to more than just Defense Net and Lodestone for example (Scout's Cloaking Field for example) so like do you really wanna concern yourself with all those combos or just consider it intentional

#

I don't know what would be best, I'm just wondering if it's actually a problem or not

vagrant grotto
#

Aegis and Crush Targeting Goliath yeah

ashen crown
#

I'm sorry Crush Targeting Goliath?

vagrant grotto
#

Put a Goliath in a defense net

ashen crown
#

Ah right

vagrant grotto
#

Have it use crush targeting on someone

#

Better yet: Crush Targeting Goliath and Bodyguard Sentinel

#

Lancer wasn’t designed with overlapping “marks” in mind

ashen crown
#

Rereading defense net, it specifically has a clause for overcoming the penalties, stating that characters need to be inside the Defense Net in order to do so. So that does confirm that "partially within" rounds up to "within."

vagrant grotto
#

Yeah and there’s ways to get past the layering

ashen crown
#

ofc

vagrant grotto
#

Also you can just melee attack the damn prism

#

Or overheat it

ashen crown
#

That too lmao

#

In all honesty there are worse combos, like Aegis and Anchor

vagrant grotto
#

“Oh no what will artillery do” shoot the Artillery Magnet or suck it up and rely on teammates

ashen crown
#

Thanks to the removal of Siege Armor Artillery is more incentivized to do that than ever

vagrant grotto
#

If the artillery gets Fascinated by the Prism while it’s in Lodestone oh well sucks to be them they should delay until someone can overheat/disable lodestone

ashen crown
#

It's a nasty combo but not necessarily a common one either, since Prisms and Anchors are both defenders they're less likely (tho not unlikely) to be paired together anyway

vagrant grotto
#

This is assuming that they didn’t take Nanocomp like they probably did

ashen crown
#

Now I'm imagining a Prism + Aegis combo tho. No literal role overlap, and because Defense Net affects all attack types if a Prism fascinates you tough shit, everyone else is in the Defense Net too lmao

vagrant grotto
#

Ironically in my books they overlap

ashen crown
#

(Shame enclave doesn't impact Tech Attacks for similar stuff)

vagrant grotto
#

Both of them are rearguards

#

Prism has some tanking/aggro draw ability in its base kit, sure, but a lot of its optionals are about playing keep out

#

Shardsplitter, Scintillating Gleam, Omniglass barriers

ashen crown
#

Support and Defender can overlap in a few ways at times

vagrant grotto
#

Aegis isn’t a support in my books

#

Support has to either clear debuffs or provide buffs

#

They’re about action economy

ashen crown
#

I mean... it clears Impaired and Slowed

vagrant grotto
#

Aight it gets that 1 thing

#

What else

ashen crown
#

If we go off CRB, then yeah nothing else

vagrant grotto
#

Exactly

#

And yet that’s usually not the reason folks field Aegis

ashen crown
#

Idk if Resistances/evasion bonuses count as a buff- Priest gives resistances and Scout + MIrage give invis

vagrant grotto
#

There’s overlap, a mechanic can fill many roles

ashen crown
#

So if you're going off of that then Defense Net gives evasion bonuses + crit immunity, and 3 optionals give evasion or resistance bonuses (guardian excluded)

#

There is overlap with Defenders like Goliath, but most defenders tend to punish spacing or targeting rather than just giving flat durability bonuses, which is where I suppose the Aegis distinction comes in

#

But I will admit it's not a strong distinction

vagrant grotto
#

I’m not calling it a defender

#

I’m calling it a rearguard

ashen crown
#

Yeah if you're doing away with the Lancer role organization it's 100% a rearguard, mainly because if enemies end up inside it's defense net it is failing at its job

#

And defenders like Goliath, Anchor, and Prism also occupy that space

#

etc etc

vagrant grotto
#

Goliath is a Tank

ashen crown
#

... actually yeah that is more accurate

vagrant grotto
#

Demolisher and Pyro are rearguard though

ashen crown
#

I think I'd call Goliath a midguard because it wants to goad people into its threat while not necessarily having the mobility to get itself to the Vanguard

vagrant grotto
#

But yes I guess I’m technically calling an Aegis a “defender” in the way that you can call a square a rectangle

vagrant grotto
#

Rearguards would never

#

They wanna keep folks out

ashen crown
#

Right, hence calling it a midguard

vagrant grotto
#

Tanks wanna keep folks in place

#

Goliath doesn’t really keep folks out

#

It has Power Knuckle, which, nice

#

But that’s it

#

It’s more of a choice peel tool

ashen crown
#

Ah okay, "guard" in the sense of "keeping people out of positions" rather than "control a space"

vagrant grotto
#

Yes

ashen crown
#

I do think the Goliath is designed to dominate the center of a battlefield, but it's moreso designed around controlling via forcing enemies to operate there rather than keep people out of it

vagrant grotto
#

Have you read my post on this topic by the way

#

For the uninitiated

ashen crown
#

I think I did like... Nearly a year ago

vagrant grotto
#

I didn’t write it a year ago so

ashen crown
#

Then I probably forgot

vagrant grotto
ashen crown
#

I feel like I did read it at some point but I've only got the headlines in my head

vagrant grotto
#

Tank wants their immediate area to be a quagmire and for everybody hostile to be stuck with them

#

For an objective-based game type that revolves around having uncontested control of an area, this is UNDESIRABLE

#

In order to hold the objective, a tank would ideally want to be right on the edge

ashen crown
#

Or not be in it at all to make allies do all the work

vagrant grotto
#

But that means that half its coverage area is contested zone

#

And yes exactly

#

Which is rough on game types that revolve around holding 4 zones when there’s only 4 players!

ashen crown
#

For something like an Escort or Extraction it'd probably perform really well, but once you get into anything Control Zone related it muddies things

vagrant grotto
#

Like you could walk up into an enemy’s zone and be a nuisance there sure, that’s valid

#

But also show me the Lancer “defender” with the inbuilt speed to do that that isn’t named White Witch

ashen crown
#

Speaking of Control- has there been any updates on your Control Rules? I heard like... A few week ago someone was running updated rules and the table was having a ton of fun with the sitrep. SOmething about "protocol claims only" or "protocol claims are always an option even when contesting"

vagrant grotto
#

Interact Action to score point
Interact is Protocol or Quick action and only 1/turn max
If enemy adjacent, need to pass a contested check

ashen crown
#

Gotcha

vagrant grotto
#

For control: 1 point per objective zone per round

ashen crown
vagrant grotto
#

That was never intended

#

It was always intended to be 1/turn

ashen crown
#

Oh really? I must've misread + internalized something a while back then

vagrant grotto
#

The benefit of being on the objective is that you get an action discount, not an action discount + bonus chance to score

#

But it’s understandable that was not how folks interpreted it

ashen crown
#

Coulda swore the intent was to encourage people to move between zones to multiply point output

vagrant grotto
#

Mostly because I’ve never codified it in anything

ashen crown
#

Anyway I might remove an OZ from the next control I run and use these rules

vagrant grotto
#

1/round per zone still stands

ashen crown
#

I did, it did not go great

vagrant grotto
#

What happened so I know

ashen crown
#

But that could've been due to other factors

vagrant grotto
#

This is important for me knowing whether it’s worth enabling such behavior

ashen crown
#

It was a while back and likely due to other factors- mainly I overbudgeted the encounter expecting the difficulty to be on par with a CRB control. That, and an old Zealot + Elite Cataphract could zoom between OZs and rack up points fast

vagrant grotto
#

IME the best way to get folks to move is to have many zones up for grabs and/or have them be 1 per combat scores

ashen crown
#

I do not remember if I actually succeeded at doing the "multiple OZs in one turn" strat, but I think I did try?

vagrant grotto
#

Also, 1-sided control helps too

#

Because then I have no reason to put my dudes on empty zones

ashen crown
vagrant grotto
#

Only 1 side is trying to score

#

Instead of both

#

See: Kill the Noise

ashen crown
#

Gotcha- imo the fun of control is the fact it's a point race, and I'd probably use rules like that for a Recon or Gauntlet, but still an interesting idea to try

vagrant grotto
#

Outnumber mechanics also encourage players and NPCs to clump up

#

Clump up to guarantee point or spread out to get more points

#

So much more dynamic than normal ass control

muted blaze
#

"Each NPC's turn ends after 1 minute" The GM Needs to play on a chess clock 😩

vagrant grotto
#

You can react to NPCs overcommitting in real time

vagrant grotto
#

Watch the GM scramble

umbral sluice
vagrant grotto
#

I mean I’m right here and I wrote this so

#

Haha

muted blaze
#

So is the hype track also IRL time limited

vagrant grotto
#

Yes

#

Basically

#

Nothing longer than 5 minutes

ashen crown
#

Hype Track: Razormind 1 Hour Extended (joke)

vagrant grotto
#

If you pick Roundabout by Yes I’m cutting it off after 5

muted blaze
#

Hype track: Long elevator by Toby fox

vagrant grotto
#

No Jupiter from Holst’s the Planets

umbral sluice
#

it's just one track come on

muted blaze
#

👁️ 👁️ The hornet waiting 20 seconds for my track to finish so it can impale my systems

ashen crown
#

Alberquerque by Weird Al

vagrant grotto
muted blaze
#

Yeah, twas a joke 😛, long story short... Don't be a dick is a good way to play and GM

umbral sluice
vagrant grotto
#

Yeah I mention that because some folks will get the adversarial mindset

#

“If I stall for time then players lose this one shot!” Very good, you fail the test

umbral sluice
#

i do need to get better at keeping the game moving though, i have realised after playing in your game Valk

vagrant grotto
vagrant grotto
#

Because on one side it’s great when folks collaborate and strategize

#

But on the other it is SOOOO fucking tedious when everybody tries to turbomax their action optimization every other turn

#

I want turns to go fast but in doing so I rob players the chance to interact with each other

umbral sluice
vagrant grotto
#

Yeah that’s the best I got at the moment

#

Make a plan and commit

umbral sluice
#

that way you have the majority of talk taken care of in advance really

vagrant grotto
#

My other ideas I wanna try soon are gonna be different initiative systems

#

I’m about to bring back group initiative

umbral sluice
#

i have started to notice players getting bogged down with "oh i need to choose who is next, uhm hey, what do you want to do?"

muted blaze
#

You can feel pressure as a player when the situation changes mid rounnd however

muted blaze
ashen crown
#

Over time I understand the "rolling for initiative" mechanic more and more, yet I still have little desire to return to it

umbral sluice
vagrant grotto
ashen crown
vagrant grotto
#

Roll Agility to see if you act first

muted blaze
#

As an XCOM player

#

No

vagrant grotto
#

Otherwise you act after enemies

vagrant grotto
umbral sluice
muted blaze
#

Wait so run through an example start of round...

umbral sluice
#

pathfinder 2e delay my beloved

vagrant grotto
# muted blaze Wait so run through an example start of round...

All player roll Agility vs the highest agility + 10 of the opposing team

Those who pass go before the NPCs, in any order (but not in a weird mishmash, one person after another but flexible order)

Then the NPCs go, same deal

Then the entire PC team goes together as initiative has become a circle

#

I need to test it

#

It’ll work better in a lightweight combat game, I know that

#

Lancer may be too far gone

muted blaze
#

eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeh...

vagrant grotto
#

But I need to try

ashen crown
#

It would make the game more "collaboratiive wargame"-y, but most tactical RPGs are already 3 steps away from being those

vagrant grotto
#

It reduces the downtime between player turns and the “oh fuck the board changed” re-litigation of who should do what next

muted blaze
#

As someone who has played a few games like warhammer, have played a lot of xcom and have played a decent amount of WH kill team... Whole team at once is very swingy

vagrant grotto
#

But Lancer may not be able to support it in its current state

#

Unless…

muted blaze
#

It would massively screw up elites and ultras, allow some PCs to immediately bomb some NPCs without retaliation then the rest can be bombed immediately... And Elites/Ultras would go crazy...

vagrant grotto
#

Player damage output is reduced… such as reducing access to accuracy and bonus damage… perhaps by the replacement of Talents with weapon mods or something… a #1423696185771954341 if you will

vagrant grotto
#

First order of business! No more extra actions for elites and ultras!

muted blaze
#

But that's what make elites and ultras cool

umbral sluice
vagrant grotto
#

Hard disagree

dapper goblet
#

Ultras just become a huge options toolkit?

ashen crown
vagrant grotto
#

Same for elites, just dialed back to the class’s optional kit

ashen crown
#

I would say Elites don't have anything unique going on beyond having extra actions. Yes they have an extra class optional and stress and structure, but that's not necessarily unique nor a very distinct power buff compared to, say, Veteran or Commander

vagrant grotto
#

Note: All this shit is my opinion so like I may be horribly wrong about how this shakes out and I’m not saying other takes aren’t possible

ashen crown
#

Ultras however have a ton going on beyond just having extra actions

muted blaze
#

Vet gives extra structure annd a trait or two... Commander gives extra structure because I forget about commander abilities

ashen crown
#

Commander also gives an extra trait

vagrant grotto
muted blaze
#

Like, as an Avid XCOM player... XCOM functions as ALL XCOM then ALL ADVENT (Then chosen, then lost...) XCOm, depite how much I love it suffers the same deal as Lancer but tenfold... The best form of controller is a striker, kill the enemies hard... It can lead to many situations where if you don't nuke the enemies before they can act they nuke you in a lethal game of rocket tag... And I'm worried if all NPCs and PCs act simultaneously it would just encourage rocket tag

umbral sluice
muted blaze
#

Also RIP amber phantom IG

ashen crown
#

The fact that the recomennded base maximum number of class optoinals for an NPC is two already is already enough grounds to, in a rebaked initiative, remove Elite

#

because 2 class optionals is surprisingly a lot of optionals

vagrant grotto
#

I think I’ve done this a bit already with my structure changes

vagrant grotto
#

There’s ways to rework it

#

But you know me

#

Big ideas

#

Lotta overhaul

#

Shelved ideas

ashen crown
#

How do these discussions always meander a mile away from the PPG content to Valk's optional rules? I say, as the one who kickstarted this (tone of genuine pondering)

vagrant grotto
#

It’s vaguely relevant lol

muted blaze
#

So long story short for me: I don't think I can ever be sold by this... I have seen too many other wargames and some games which suffer from team based activations that could be fixed or made better by alternating activations that I don't think this can work... But I've said my piece and will not want to sound like a broken record

vagrant grotto
#

Duly noted then

muted blaze
#

Yes, I've seen the problems of Lancers activation structure... But I've seen worse from the alternatives

ashen crown
#

I should play an actual wargame sometime. A skirmish wargame I don't have time for a full one

muted blaze
#

This is not saying don't prove me wrong 😛

vagrant grotto
#

I do like the adaptation that Pathfinder 2e’s initiative encourages, but it still has the trouble of long downtimes

#

I take my artillery ranger turn and pass lol

ashen crown
#

I do think changes like this are when you have to re-ask the question "do I wanna rework Lancer or do I wanna play a different RPG for a little while?"

vagrant grotto
#

But! At least I can plan

umbral sluice
#

admittedly, this is anecdotal, but i've found pf2e downtimes to be notably less long, maybe because of less moving parts? cant quite pin down why but i dont think i ever needed to wait more than like 10 minutes for a turn in that game

#

could very much just be the gm good at running things fast

ashen crown
vagrant grotto
muted blaze
#

Sometimes I want to play a wargame with the facade of an RPG

vagrant grotto
muted blaze
#

Unfortunately removing player choices makes things faster 😔

ashen crown
muted blaze
#

From what I've looked at battlegroup purely from a vibes perspective... I could never imagine playing it as a campaign or an RPG

vagrant grotto
#

I’m just constantly in the state of trying to find a tactical rpg with the smallest amount of driving me up the wall

muted blaze
#

I can't imagine playing it as a TTRPG outside of basically being cutscenes between conflicts... NOT saying I couldn't play it... In fact I'd like to

vagrant grotto
#

Oh, by the way for mech skirmish game folks: Maybe check out MAC Attack

umbral sluice
#

-# every day i regret picking a normal ass adjective for my username more

#

you know that thing that your brain does when you see someone with your same name? yeah i've started doing that with the word Smallest lmao

vagrant grotto
muted blaze
#

I did once

#

I had a blast because the best part of it was because I wasn't playing monopoly

ashen crown
vagrant grotto
#

I should be more fair to BG since I only know what people say about it, I don’t have it

ashen crown
muted blaze
#

It was a nordic larp with the premise that the GM once had a dream or memory in the past of monopoly saying it went up to 12 players so they massively expanded the rules, added factions and roles

vagrant grotto
#

Amazing

muted blaze
#

I was playing as the press, and I basically ran around interviewing random people and getting my money stolen by the thief who could literally just take peoples money

vagrant grotto
#

But yeah I guess I need to read Battlegroup before saying more

umbral sluice
muted blaze
#

The game ended when my friend forced a police coup upon London

vagrant grotto
#

Eat my humble pie

ashen crown
#

Love what you love but like come on

vagrant grotto
#

Alright back to Kensei

muted blaze
#

KENSEI

#

Back to topic

ashen crown
#

I'm debating whether to put the Kensei in the IPS-N or Union themed sitrep. Technically everything fits the Union themed sitrep but not the point

vagrant grotto
#

I need more pictures of spider man playtests of Kensei

muted blaze
#

Kensei nelson putting a massive explosive tip on their spear

ashen crown
#

Kensei does not have to be themed with a sword is something I have considered

muted blaze
#

DD288 KENSEI

umbral sluice
#

Kensei tortuga and flavour the sword as a shotgun actually?

vagrant grotto
steel apex
#

I think most people have no idea how to articulate what they do or do not want out of an RPG to facilitate "roleplay"

ashen crown
#

I will say I highly doubt that Battlegroup "facilitates roleplay" any less than Lancer does

#

And I do personally believe "facilitating roleplay" is a bit of a... I can't find the words, "nonsense term"?

mild trail
steel apex
umbral sluice
steel apex
#

Battlegroup lacks a list of skill triggers in favor of more explicit "make your own" and it has Bonds

#

it has everything everybody went apeshit over going "at last, now lancer has ROLEPLAYING"

#

I gave people lists of little fiddly narrative powers which it turns out is actually what they want

ashen crown
#

Yeah I think it's more just that it's setting and framing just doesn't spark my inspiration when it comes to storytelling, which is a matter of personal taste rather than game design

muted blaze
steel apex
#

pagespace is given over to framing things troupe style

ashen crown
#

I wasn't comparing it to a wargame because of that tho, I just thought that "battlegroup allows you to command legions right?", plus the way it manages spacing/maps looks kinda wargamey. STill an RPG tho

steel apex
#

You can have your personal battlegroup commander but also other notable characters as well and you can jump perspective between them

#

like Battlestar Galactica isn't the Adama Show

vagrant grotto
#

Yeah no, I have noted my ignorance with the source material and will recuse myself

steel apex
#

this isn't how a lot of RPGs do it, lancer doesn't do it for example, but I do agree that while it may feel more constrained to always be in the role of a senior commanding officer, the game encourages you to walk in other characters' shoes

ashen crown
steel apex
#

There is a faint soupcon, probably not a huge ton but it's there, of journaling game in battlegroup's DNA

muted blaze
#

I am familiar with "you are a singular guy" and "you are telling the story of singular guy". Therefore I believe I will struggle to play something that isn't... I even find a disconnect when it comes between "you are a guy (mech pilot)" and not being able to summon the spoons to RP in my TTRPG during a session which is a combat

vagrant grotto
steel apex
#

yeah I'm not sure if I'm, like, a formal Stance Theory Advocate, but even before I knew someone had made it into a theory my personal perspective on roleplay has always been more Authorial/Directorial than immersionist

vagrant grotto
#

I’m not either tbf but it’s a useful frame to pull out sometimes

steel apex
#

"what would be a good thing for this character to do in the story" versus "what would my character, who I am embodying, do?"

muted blaze
#

Like telling your part in a story versus playing a role?

#

(Not saying they are mutually exclusive)

steel apex
#

It's the difference between "well I just wouldn't go down into the spooky basement, that's stupid, so my character won't either" versus "this moves the plot forward in a fun/interesting way, so yeah she'll go down into the spooky basement"

muted blaze
#

I love making stupid decisions for the sake of plot

ashen crown
#

There's also the fact that in discussion, due to certain precedents, it's difficult to find the vocab to continue discussion in such a way that indicates "no the combat part of the game is still RP." Like out of combat stuff is just as much RP as in combat stuff, but people don't tend to frame it that way because there's just not a good common vocabulary available to do that

steel apex
#

I think that having some detachment between player and character makes stuff like that easier, or at least I find that it functions more smoothly

#

(I also do not particularly care for the sort of "I am my character is me" vibe in general)

ashen crown
#

The human experience is vast varied and beautiful and makes TTRPG design + discussion extremely frustrating at times

muted blaze
#

It's something I've developed, actually mostly in Larps where I play probably more larps than I do TTRPGs, therefore I've made a lot of RPG characters. Where once you get more comfortable with RP it's easier to disconnenct your character from yourself

vagrant grotto
#

For further reading

muted blaze
#

Some of my favourite larp characters have been the ones most disconnected from me

#

And the ones I struggle the most with are the "me but not me" characters

#

And it easily translates to TTRPGs too

vagrant grotto
#

But basically yeah stances change and different game mechanisms can encourage different stances but not the same one all the time

umbral sluice
#

/gen

ashen crown
muted blaze
#

Yeah

ashen crown
#

Which are surprisingly easy to make on accident

umbral sluice
#

ohhh like that

#

yeah i keep accidentally doing that

#

make a character, step back and just say "this is just me again isnt it"

muted blaze
#

MFW I make a character accidentally a tranns allegory

#

Crazy that

ashen crown
#

I've gotten better at it, but I still keep going back to the strategy of "what if I took this fear I have IRL and made it the entire character?" which causes the character to eventually converge on "me but not me" over time

umbral sluice
#

totally

ashen crown
#

anyway Kensei

umbral sluice
#

Kensei!

muted blaze
#

Kensei?

ashen crown
#

What do you think Kensei would go better in: A Gauntlet or an Escort? I'm thinking Gauntlet but idk

muted blaze
#

Gauntlet

#

EEEEEH

#

Either

#

Reliant on map design

vagrant grotto
#

Kensei takes objectives and then wards them

umbral sluice
#

Gauntlet if it's the classic gauntlet map shape

vagrant grotto
#

Imo: both

ashen crown
#

The Gauntlet is (near) guaranteed to have an Elite Occultist and several Vultures, meanwhile the Escort will have a Prism. Also there will be other NPCs but don't worry about them

vagrant grotto
#

It’s the rare Vanguard/Rearguard

muted blaze
#

A kensei would work best on a map with lanes which funnel towards it

#

Also I'm staring at my opfor for next Sunday and I'm double guessinng it

vagrant grotto
muted blaze
#

Part of me is thinking "fuck it we ball fuck it we ball fuck it we ball fuck it we ball fuck it we ball", the other part

#

Ok done

#

Mostly because I made it before 1.12

ashen crown
#

I keep second guessing my ability to make cohesive OpFors purely based on the fact that the last few I've made were very not-cohesive

#

And I'm realizing my ability to make NPCs collaborate when running combats could use some work

vagrant grotto
muted blaze
#

I'd like to discuss my opfor...

vagrant grotto
#

I’m committed to my build

muted blaze
#

Yeah

vagrant grotto
#

I have thrown rock

muted blaze
#

Well, I'm pobs gonna make a second combat In case you lot roll the first

#

I just need to figure what it would be

#

I also renamed an ennemies abilities for flavour andn it got deleted by overwritinggg with 1.12 😭

vagrant grotto
#

Get Kai some Rebake Strider data

#

Or Vex some Slinger data

umbral sluice
#

oh is slinger being reworked?

ashen crown
#

Everyone in this chat is playtesting the same things (jape)

muted blaze
#

Yeah, I complained too hard

vagrant grotto
#

I’m only saying I’m locked in so Al knows they can discuss opfor in comfort with me

muted blaze
#

Nah, opfor jumpscare

vagrant grotto
#

I know how this shit goes

ashen crown
opaque crescent
ashen crown
#

Whihc shall now enter the fire pit because it has become obsolete now

umbral sluice
#

if it gives you any solace Al, i could know the exact opfor comp and still struggle to make a good counter build ngl

vagrant grotto
#

Oh the alt slinger

#

I thought you meant the alt draft (if that exists)

#

I know Vex has been stressing so yeah sending good vibes

Creating shit’s hard

ashen crown
#

I could make the Slinger an Ultra

#

hm. Captive Spike Kensei. Idea for later

muted blaze
#

Joking about the "complaining" part, I mentioned I had issues with the slinger and some more of the NPCs... I kindna did this because Vex has mentioned previously they like the fact the feedback channel can humble her... But I still feel somewhat guilty if it felt like I was responsible for bullying her into changing it... evenn if it wasn't the case

muted blaze
umbral sluice
muted blaze
#

No, pirate

umbral sluice
#

both

vagrant grotto
#

Yeah I know how it goes to be hit with the Bat of Humility

muted blaze
#

Opfor jumpscare

SPOILER_image.png
ashen crown
muted blaze
#

Unlike how I treat valk... I DM Valk with all my complaints as my morning routine

ashen crown
#

And they wouldn't have actually changed anything if there she didn't agree with the critiques to a degree anyway- at least that's what I think

vagrant grotto
muted blaze
#

Lying is free

#

Oh you want me to do that? /j

vagrant grotto
#

Only a little, it’s mostly just “I like talking about RPG design” and “I hunger for feedback”

muted blaze
#

It would just be me coping and saying "28 damage!" over and over again

steel apex
#

run 100000 strider games thanks in advance

vagrant grotto
#

Unless you wanna get hit with a Sans Undertale “get dunked on lol”

muted blaze
#

I deserve it

ashen crown
#

I wonder... if I could use your rules for Gauntlets, valk, but space the 3 objectives in a way similar to an Enhanced COmbat Breach and Clear

vagrant grotto
#

Probably

#

What’s my gauntlet rule again

#

Because I’ve had a few and some are worse than others

ashen crown
#

I think the same as control but no enemy contesting and the 3 objects are clustered near each other

#

The last ones I read at least

vagrant grotto
#

Got it