#Prototype Pattern Groups

1 messages · Page 14 of 1

vagrant grotto
#

Or like, let it trip as part of becoming unhidden

ashen crown
#

Is grappling something worth keeping in the kit or no? The fantasy of an Atlas grappling and riding a larger foe as it takes it down is very at odds with the reality of Grappling nerfing it

vagrant grotto
#

“If you hit with grapple, you may instead jockey the mech as if you were a pilot. You may choose a jockey action 1/round as a free action”

ashen crown
#

I think making the... ability to occupy hostile character spaces could be modded to give a little more melee benefits, but that risks going mega overboard in terms of benefits

vagrant grotto
#

You keep your reaction and keep occupying enemy space and are constantly ripping it

ashen crown
#

Could also give Jager Dodge a "this may be used while in a grapple" exception, like with ARmor Lock Plating

vagrant grotto
#

Yeah that too sure

ashen crown
#

Depends on what you wanna lean into- adding Jockeying to mechs sounds complicated and like a "being able to Fight during Black Thumb" scenario, except if you're in a mech the Jockey Options are kinda not worth it

#

But if you wanna put in the work it has the potential to be very very fun

vagrant grotto
#

It replaces Giantkiller

#

Instead while jockeying you can do one of

  • deterministically impair band slow
  • deal 2 heat
  • deal 4 kinetic damage
    As a free action instead of the typical full
ashen crown
#

Yeah those sound like good changes

vagrant grotto
#

Like this is if you go the “grappling” route

ashen crown
#

Would you be removing the contested check element of Jockey in this case?

vagrant grotto
#

Shinobi route is gonna be hella different

ashen crown
#

Do you wanna reference Demon Slayer or Attack on Titan? (bit)

dapper goblet
#

So very insane but useful point of reference - I made a blackbeard alt that allowed Jockeying (ok, the actual mechanics are way more cursed than that), and it turns out Jockeying is actually really good as a free action

vagrant grotto
vagrant grotto
dapper goblet
#

Borderline

vagrant grotto
#

I’m good with borderline

dapper goblet
#

Its your choice of:
Free 1d6 damage trait
Dealers choice of half a fragsig

ashen crown
dapper goblet
#

Those are both within band for mech traits but either is good, and its a healthy dose more power than it seems with the flexibility

umbral sluice
dapper goblet
#

Shit smallest found me talking about the blackbeard alt again

#

SCATTER BOYS

vagrant grotto
#

Tbf I think the only reason Grapple is mentioned in Giantkiller is because of this one gif

umbral sluice
#

to be fair: this is sick and awesome

dapper goblet
#

YES SPLIT IT WIDE OPEN

vagrant grotto
#

The thing is: this mechanically isn’t a grapple

#

It’s more like a ram

#

Forced movement (if you share its space it can be any direction) plus prone (it’s vulnerable to being split wide open)

#

Also: Fatal Clash covers this

#

So yeah, in Atlas there are two wolves:

  • The stealthy, hide-oriented Hunter style
  • the ballsy, “Wir sind der Jäger” style
#

And the question is how to reconcile them

#

It’s like fuckin Kayn from league of legends

umbral sluice
#

i think current atlas leans to the former imo

vagrant grotto
umbral sluice
#

but the vibes definitely are in between

vagrant grotto
umbral sluice
#

i have no clue!

#

i'd love to know but truly we can't

vagrant grotto
#

But conversely: if the ballsy MGR style gameplay is intended, do we actually care about developer intent?

#

And is there a way to have the cake and eat it too?

umbral sluice
#

make a second cake (i dont know what this implies in lancer)

vagrant grotto
#

Atlas alt frame

#

So here’s my take

#

Atlas the frame has some hide related benefits but only really enhances hide on its core power

#

All of its other licensed gear is overt and direct and focused on avoiding risk/overwatch while rapidly approaching the opponent

#

It could skirmisher around (yes I mean in the Lockbreaker sense) to engage/attack/disengage sure

ashen crown
#

We also already have a few stealth focused frames, 1 or 2 of which are size 1/2

#

It could still fill that niche but it doesn't really need or want to IMO

vagrant grotto
#

Yeah exactly my thought

#

You could build infiltrator on it for sure but it doesn’t necessitate it

#

Though I definitely am now thinking of a frame trait that lets you hide while jockeying

ashen crown
#

Hecatonchieres

#

But also that doesn't sound the most fun to interact with in practice

#

Feels more like a custom Pilot rule tbh

vagrant grotto
#

Or a core power thing maybe

But maybe the opponent can still shake you off even if hidden

ashen crown
#

tru

velvet cairn
#

Do you think Core Operator is one of the most egregious NPCs in 1st party content in terms of how polarising it can be?

Or does that title go to Core Avenger?

umbral sluice
#

personally i've lived it more with Operator, Scout and Rainmaker (specifically in the context of the 1 turn true combo) more than avenger

vagrant grotto
#

Operator just happens to be carrying it

velvet cairn
#

I presume Carbon fiber sword and the monofilament blade (the other 3x multiattack T3 weapons) dodge the flak by virtue of being melee?

umbral sluice
#

i personally think Ronin and Spectre have more identity to their gameplay than Operator tbh

#

like they all have specific things they want to do, positions that they want to take, and intuitive ways to counter them

#

operator shoots people

#

and explodes when it dies

velvet cairn
#

His statblock is just

#

idk how to say it

#

Op, counting conditionals

#

just feels like a much better and souped up Assault

#

Also comes with somewhat decent EWAR capabilities to spam SigFrag

vagrant grotto
#

Yeah, so I’m happy to utilize Kai’s rebaked operator instead

twin escarp
#

Without the extra overshield from arc feedback my capacitor would've been one-tapped by my Lancaster player's plasma thrower

#

And I'm glad that didn't happen cause it lived till the end of the fight and had a really memorable story with the Lancaster (after losing the plasma thrower to a system trauma) running onto a control point held only by the capacitor and grappling it just outside the area

#

Which was especially notable because the capacitor npc was narratively that player's old emperor pc

vagrant grotto
#

Unrelated, Atlas thoughts

    • Atlas Frame
        ○ Base Stats
            § Increase HP from 6 to 7
            § Increase repair cap from 2 to 4
            § Increase SP from 5 to 7
            § Increase HC from 4 to 5
        ○ Jäger Dodge becomes “move up to”
        ○ Replace Finishing Blow with Competitive Edge:
            § The Atlas has +1 Accuracy on Contested Checks.
        ○ Giantkiller becomes:
            §  The Atlas counts as Size 1 for Ram. It may use the Jockey action (Lancer, p. 75) as a Quick Action against mechs larger than itself. While jockeying, the Atlas has soft cover and can end the jockey with any of its voluntary movement. On subsequent turns, 1/round it may choose another jockey option as a Free Action instead of a Full Action.
        ○ Final Hunt:
Keep the same except it can also hide while Engaged if it’s Jockeying. (It can still be shaken off while Hidden.)

Basically I plugged Atlas’s base stats into a spreadsheet that calculates effective HASE (which I still wanna refine) and found that it has a worse stat spread than any CRB frame (Balor is the worst CRB spread but has Regenerator to “compensate”). This doesn’t even consider Exposed Reactor! So I bumped some of its stats to put it just barely below Everest’s total point value.

Then I proceeded to follow through on the “contested check expertise” and Giantkiller Jockey. Anything not mentioned is unchanged

#

I break the “size ½ always has 6 hp” convention but I find that arbitrary anyway

#

Besides that, Jäger Künst thoughts:

    • Jäger Künst I:
        ○ 2 SP, Unique, 1 Heat (Self), Reaction, 1/round
        ○ Trigger: You start any movement adjacent to an object or free-standing piece of terrain larger than you. 
        ○ Effect: You kick flip off of the object or terrain; your resultant momentum allows your movement to ignore engagement and avoid provoking reactions.
    • Jäger Künst II:
        ○ 3 SP, Unique, Limited 3, Reaction, 1/round
        ○ Trigger: You deal damage to or take damage from a hostile character with a melee attack. 
        ○ Effect: After damage has been resolved, you inflict 2 Kinetic AP damage to the hostile character unless they choose to make a constructed Hull or Agility save against you (each participant’s choice). The loser takes 1d6 Kinetic AP damage and is knocked prone. On a tie, nothing happens.
#

This is more in line with my stated desire to reduce the number of decision points in Long Rim player content

muted blaze
#

Jaeger kunst heavy super duper nerf

#

2 specifically

#

How dare my anime clashes be less stupid

vagrant grotto
#

JK1 modified to enhance normal movement to make the character more slippery (EDIT: without adding extra decision points), and JK2 modified to be instant extra damage unless the enemy wants to push their luck (and Atlas has a Competitive Edge)

vagrant grotto
umbral sluice
#

maybe JK1 can let you do that 2 space move as part of this reaction, but only 1/round still?

vagrant grotto
#

So like if you have a suggestion to amp the power but keep the decision points low then sure

vagrant grotto
#

I’m okay with it enhancing an existing move

#

But too much micro movement slows the game down

#

Atlas already has Jäger Dodge anyway

umbral sluice
#

oh yeah i get the intent behind it for sure

#

i just think this version of JK1 needs a tiny bit of oomph tbh

#

doesnt do much more than like skirmisher 2 i think

#

unless i'm not seeing something

vagrant grotto
#

No commitment to skirmish

umbral sluice
#

hmm i forgot disengage

#

yeah i think i'd like to see how this plays out in testing really

vagrant grotto
#

But yeah like, that can be useful on Jockey Atlas who needs to fuck off of someone

#

Honestly I might just reword it to “take 1 heat. If you’re next to larger terrain, You Disengage as a free action” (or quick action, I don’t know)

#

Imo the point of JK1 is to get in and out of places with impunity, as long as you’re next to cover

#

Or “any time you start movement this turn adjacent to a unique piece of terrain, you ignore engagement and reactions for that movement”

#

I don’t know, something that lets it disengage but reduces fiddliness

vagrant grotto
#

Decided to add the supplemental PCs to my spreadsheet and found that Caliban actually has a remarkably low stat total

ashen crown
#

IS that something you plan to change or keep? I think you wanted to raise Caliban's base speed to compensate for at will Pursue Prey so that contributes to a degree

ashen crown
#

I highly doubt lore is gonna have a say in the rebalancing of this stuff

placid glacier
#

idk its SSC probably some weird biomod fuckery going into it at least

ashen crown
#

Also, when you say "any of it's voluntary movement," do you mean "it's free to move but if it does the Jockey ends," "it expends the entire move action in question to end the Jockey," or "it may spend a space of any voluntary movement to end the jockey"?

vagrant grotto
#

Which means you can’t Jäger Dodge off and out of danger

#

It’s so Atlas can detach and use escape tools when it’s not its turn

vagrant grotto
#

Hp is only an abstraction

#

And like, number diegesis is not one of Lancer’s selling points

umbral sluice
ashen crown
#

Like I said, it's a lore violation but like who cares about those

#

I brought it up in case it mattered but I don't really care if it does or not when it comes to other people's work. It's something I'd care about for stuff I design but would never dare force on anyone else because it's arbitrary at the end of the day

vagrant grotto
#

The interesting thing about starting to standardize PC frames is that it may be possible to expand that to NPCs eventually. Like once you figure out decent stat weightings

granite saddle
# vagrant grotto Besides that, Jäger Künst thoughts: ``` • Jäger Künst I: ○ 2 SP, Uni...

JKII : An NPC that chooses to contest can and will (eventually, and it'll suck on a limited 3 ability) actually still take less damage on a fail if it rolls a 1 on the d6. Consider doing 1d6+1 or 1d6+2 instead ? I'll let you see.
JKI : 2SP and 1 heat (technically and your reaction on your turn, which isn't a lot but still JKII anti-synergy) is harsh for such a low/medium power effect. You already talked about the FA disengage angle and that one's at least a bit better imo, if only for the elimination of anti-synergy.

vagrant grotto
granite saddle
#

alright, those a the main things I noticed.

vagrant grotto
#

Yeah no I’m with you

granite saddle
#

still think that effect for that cost might be a bit underwhelming for JK1, but that can be arranged.

#

While (somewhat) on the subject : does your calculator thingy for HASE take difficulty traits into account ?

vagrant grotto
#

Nope not yet and not sure if it will

#

If it did, Caliban and Atlas would be underground

#

I’ll share the sheet soonish

granite saddle
#

'cause those are harsh I realized after playing with frames that had those (needing 6 points to guarantee at worse +0 sucks).

vagrant grotto
#

Yeah I’m certain the malus traits were purely vibes based

#

Well… nah I’m being uncharitable

#

In CRB they make a bit of sense, offsetting Dusk Wing hover and Goblin’s reign of technical terror

#

Though frankly wouldn’t bat an eye at dropping goblin’s Tech accuracy if it meant also dropping Fragile

#

Don’t let your wizards get better spell efficacy just because they took the Brittle Bone Disease flaw

granite saddle
#

in that same vein, I think the Barb having both 5 base SP and slow is very sad, especially with how much fucking room there is supposed to be in one ("made to carry the heaviest of weapons and equipment" my ass, you can barely fit EAF in there without running out of versatility)

#

sure it's not as bad with 3 base speed but still

vagrant grotto
#

Yeah, Barb is low on the points too iirc

#

My initial spreadsheet was based off of one someone else shared a while ago, and I do plan to tweak the equations

#

But it’s helpful for a ballpark view

granite saddle
#

it's not even like your CP ate all the power budget, 'cause it's very situational and requires a lot of setup

vagrant grotto
#

Yeah no in my design eyes, base stats should be balanced against base stats, and traits against traits

#

Because otherwise things get vibey and some stuff becomes heavily deficient in certain parts of the game

granite saddle
#

I'd leave room for some exceptions myself, but exceptions should be, y'know, exceptions

#

not "every frame*"

vagrant grotto
#

Yeah exactly

#

Like, Salvage Union in comparison has a whole stat-range calculation for its mechs and roughly balances the frame “core powers” against each other

#

Like they have an equation they used and published to their blog so other folks can make similar mechs

granite saddle
granite saddle
vagrant grotto
#

Right? The SU scene is smaller than Lancer for sure but I dare say the barrier to creative entry is lower (though it’s also a MUCH less crunchy game tbf)

#

Also, for your cursed consideration: How many Mech Skill points is a weapon mount worth? Think it over

umbral sluice
#

is that even a quantifiable thing? i think it's kind of apples to oranges

vagrant grotto
#

It has to be in some way, in order to get an equation out of this

#

My current conversion rate is involving Core Bonuses for HASE stats vs the GMS mount CBs

ashen crown
# vagrant grotto In CRB they make a bit of sense, offsetting Dusk Wing hover and Goblin’s reign o...

The Malus traits outside of Long Rim make sense, including Blackbeard which kinda deserved to take a hit for how good it’s traits are (if it’s gonna charge in, being Vulnerable to dangerous terrain and burn makes sense as a downside particularly considering how good of bulk it has). Same with the few other frames with Malus Traits. Even Zheng and Caliban kinda earned it (their weaknesses are computers, and since they’re kinda speedy and very tanky being tech vulnerable tracks).

It’s Atlas and Kobold that caught strays because of it

granite saddle
#

Where in the barb's everything does it need a diff to agi on top of 2 speed on top of 5 SP

vagrant grotto
granite saddle
ashen crown
#

I think on the specific frames I did and didn’t name it’s subjective which ones did and did not earn Malus Traits, but it’s still something that belongs in the game as a balancing tool imo

vagrant grotto
#

Altogether this is just me saying “it’s been 5 years, we’ve grown, I think we can reflect on the designs”

#

Though I do think NPCs are less fraught for discussion, as fewer players get Very Attached to NPCs

granite saddle
granite saddle
ashen crown
#

It is noteworthy that both the frames with Heavy Frame also have Slow so while it is probably safe to say the pairing was a choice of flavor it’s harder for me to say if it still holds a meaningful design impact

granite saddle
#

You just made me remember the Drake is a frame that exists. Yikes.

#

Love the license, frame looks rough

ashen crown
#

I mean Drake is still a pretty good frame but it holds a lot of mechanical similarities to Barbarossa that earn Barby criticism

#

Hence why I’m thinking about it but unable to really come to a conclusion

umbral sluice
granite saddle
ashen crown
#

Like Drake has the same mounts, practically the same traits sans the resistance trait, same evasions, same SP, same repairs, same sensors, same save target,

The main stat line differences are size (-1), speed (+1), heat cap (-3), and the HP + Armor are slightly different (-2 HP for +1 armor). Also it has +2 Tech Attack on the Barby for some reason (for a total of +0 tech attack). And ofc the core power is different.

#

So if Barby doesn’t deserve slow you could argue Drake doesn’t either

granite saddle
# umbral sluice does it? what are your gripes with it?

Unfortunately, Burn and AP happens. My experience is probably quite skewed on that, I'll acknowledge it, but I'm not sure I'd risk a Drake at my usual tables, unless I knew I'd get some great use out of fortress protocol (holding a position sitrep).

ashen crown
#

To be fair, compared to Barbarossa at least, -2 HP isn’t too too much in long term progression, especially if you’re also getting +1 speed out of the deal

#

I should stop comparing them at this point the longer this conversation goes on the more it’s gonna be like comparing apples to potatoes

granite saddle
# ashen crown So if Barby doesn’t deserve slow you could argue Drake doesn’t either

I probably would, but that's also me not liking difficulty traits on stuff that aren't as cracked as like, the goblin at tech attacking or the Dusk Wing at flying. Barb and Drake are much less specialized (or more accurately, not specialized in something as universally useful as "Tech attacks" or "flight" or "melee combat" or "knockback controller")

ashen crown
#

I mean they’re the most specialized in… not moving, but in Lancer the strategy comes with enough penalties as is

granite saddle
#

What I meant, yeah

granite saddle
ashen crown
#

Plus if a core bonus can confer similar benefits (Fomorian Frame) then it probably it’s not a specialty worth penalizing so heavily

vagrant grotto
granite saddle
ashen crown
#

I think Barbarossa and Drake are solid frames as is tho, they’re still pretty good stat sticks. It’s just a matter of “they’re not so strong that they earned a Malus trait,” unlike Blackbeard and Zheng and the like

#

Being a stat stick tends to net you traits like Superior Reactor in fact

granite saddle
ashen crown
#

A thing to note about Malus Traits is that in play they won’t come up nearly as often as every other component of the frame, as they tend to naturally lean away from things the frame wants to avoid

granite saddle
#

Can't avoid burn when it's half the OpFor, can't avoid base game structure hull checks if you still use that terrifying thing

ashen crown
#

That is also fair

granite saddle
#

True for the other two though, yeah

ashen crown
#

Fragile and Exposed Reactor will definitely come up a lot more often than Weak Computer and Slow

granite saddle
ashen crown
#

Going off of basic actions actually, I think the only thing that would really trigger Slow would be checks to escape Grapples, and if you’re in a Drake or Barbarossa you don’t really have to worry about that

#

Actual NPC traits or environmental effects are a different beast entirely, but at the very least if you ignore things that are Sitrep dependent it should come up the least often

umbral sluice
#

isnt grapple a hull check to escape

vagrant grotto
granite saddle
vagrant grotto
ashen crown
#

To contest, Hull only

ashen crown
#

sorry about the ping my finger slipped

#

To prevent escape, also Hull only if you’re the grappler

umbral sluice
#

am i missing something? i see nothing on agility here

image.png
granite saddle
ashen crown
umbral sluice
#

maybe? could maybe be a carry over from other games where there is a choice in it

granite saddle
#

probs mixing it up with JK2 where that is the case

ashen crown
#

No I was probably mixing it with D&D 5E rules at the time and the mistake was never corrected

#

But anyway unless you’re doing some weird PaaC to jump further or smthn, taking Stress or Structure while flying is the only scenario that would trigger Slow regardless of Sitrep

#

NPCs still have plenty of ways to trigger agility checks and saves, but those tend to key directly into stuff Heavy Frame negates

#

… actually looking through NPC stats, that kinda stuff actually keys more off of hull than agility

#

Agility tends to be moreso about avoiding damage from AoEs

granite saddle
#

most AgGIs are mostly damage first control second yeah, but that's what armor is for

ashen crown
#

And they have resistance traits that tend to trigger off those things, Barby and Drake respectively

granite saddle
#

ye

ashen crown
#

I think this discussion has made me realize that Malus trait impacts are ultimately defined by the prompts to trigger them put in place by the System

#

Do Barbarossa and Drake necessarily deserve Slow? Not particularly, but their playstyle and traits make them predisposed to resists things that Slow would key off of.

Does Blackbeard necessarily deserve exposed reactor? Yes, because its traits make it very good at getting into and out of situations that would prompt it to trigger, and also it has very good stats and traits. It wants to be encouraged to actually get out of those situations rather than roughing it out- something it would be capable of doing had it not had Exposed Reactor.

Hence why Atlas and Kobold kinda suffer from exposed reactor. They’re predisposed to scenarios that put them near Burn and Dangerous Terrain, but unlike frames like Blackbeard, their playstyle does not encourage them to leave those scenarios nor enable them to very well. Atlas has a harder time dragging priority targets away from hot zones, and Kobold needs to utilize and create terrain in those hot zones to best make use of its traits

#

It’s elements of the game they don’t naturally resist nor elements they should be discouraged from engaging with

vagrant grotto
#

Alright so from my calculations of CBs and assuming that each stat in a HASE point takes up half the value (so 2 HP = 1/2 a rep cap in value) my rough calculations indicate that a CB is worth from 1-2 mech skill points

#

most stat boosters are worth 1/2 of 2 HASE points, but with a little rider on sometimes (Full Subjectivity Sync is 2 EVA, which is half of 2 agility, but Superior By Design is 2 Heat Cap and immune to Impaired aka half of 2 ENG plus an extra benefit)

#

so, I'm settling on "a CB is worth about 1.5 mech skill points, so a Flex Mount is 1.5 mech skill points"

#

leading to this

Heavy       3
Main/Aux    2.5
Flex        1.5
Aux/Aux     1
Main        1
Empty       0
#

maybe Main/Aux is closer to 2 and Heavy is closer to 2.5? it's up to debate. The main/aux replacement CB costs a Flex mount but gains you a Main/Aux so that makes sense in terms of value lost/gained (lose 1.5 points but gain 2.5 points for a net of 1, which is acceptable)

granite saddle
#

I mean, technically the main/aux replacement could also cost an aux/aux. Would bring net point gain to 1.5 like improved armaments.

ashen crown
vagrant grotto
muted blaze
#

Fss?

vagrant grotto
muted blaze
#

Ah yeah lol

vagrant grotto
#

After fucking around with equation for a few hours last night I have decided to let it rest for now

#

OG sheet and author: #mech-hangar message

#

Sheet 1 of mine is the original equation. Relative HASE is compared to Everest. Revised Relative HASE is using my revised equation factoring in Save Target, Sensors, and Mounts

#

And these all are comparing the base frame stats + mounts, NOT the traits

velvet cairn
#

Using anomaly anchor to yeet a knight banner to the front lines is funny

#

but that means the knight is severely out of position

#

and that's 4 structure worth of NPCs not doing anything to contribute to the main furball

#

i just relegated the knight to guarding the anchor

#

Operator however had a field day

upbeat obsidian
#

Knight assassin combo.. what else would go good

#

The issue is I want like, good elites or vets.. or vet commanders

#

I’m somewhat concerned about knight vets due to like, lack of dueling targets without like valor

#

Assassins would probably be fine as elites..

#

Not sure what else to run with these two

ashen crown
upbeat obsidian
#

Well it’s just uh

#

Idk less duel targets, maybe

ashen crown
#

Anyhow, I think adding another support with movement assistance would be good, like a Mirage. You could also throw an artillery in there, like a Rainmaker

upbeat obsidian
#

Although the fuel would last longer

#

Hmm

ashen crown
#

A controller would go pretty big, maybe an Archer or Hive

#

Hive would give the Assassin Hide spots

#

While Archer could be cruel when it comes to compelled duel targets

#

I think one more damage dealer would be a good idea regardless, and a controller would be good too

#

Ace (I think, at least the rebake one) + Rainmaker love Lock On so they’ll pair well with the Knight, and the compelled duel will divert healthy attention

#

Operator will also be allowed to take more risks with a Knight on the field

#

Barricade would also be fantastic for locking folks down and helping hide the Assassin

#

Lurker makes soft cover too, as does Vulture

#

Generally any cover generator or invis distributor will help the Assassin a ton

#

And something that benefits from shred or has something to gain from being out in the open will love the Knight

#

Hatchet could be fun… not for any specific reason I just think it’d be fun. As would Napalm

#

I think any artillery, particularly non-Bombards and non-Snipers, will enjoy the Knight+Assassin combo because it’ll cover all 3 grounds while playing with one another.

Assassin will be a front guard and infiltrator that knocks guys prone and takes out high priority targets. It’ll enjoy the benefits and redirection of the Knight as well.

The Knight will play a mid-guard, and against assassin’s marked targets it can ensure attacks will not harm the Assassin well, while also capitalizing on the debuffs the Assassin dishes out. It’ll also be a roadblock for anyone trying to harm the Artillery.

The Artillery will handle the back line, profiting off of Assassin debuffs (so long as they’re not a sniper) and being permitted to take more risks thanks to the Knight.

#

And controllers+supports will exacerbate the pains exerted by the trio very well

#

The big concern for the Knight is because it’ll be such a keystone, it’ll also be a high priority target and that’s liable to cause it to melt

#

Capacitors and Prisms can slow that process handily but could be considered too mean a combo

#

And they could also be considered redundant due to shred, AP, lock on application, etc

#

So in terms of additions I’d recommend: throw in a Rainmaker or Operator, then an Archer or Barricade, and then either an Ace, a Support, a Lurker, an Engineer, or a Hatchet

#

And give templates to whoever you think appropriate

#

Oh wait an Occultist would actually be fantastic too, consider that for the controller or bonus

#

Witch and Mirage would also be useful but they’re pretty loaded units, in general

#

Elite will go good on Assassin, especially because it really needs the extra actions in order to make use of GTFO actions- it does NOT like being surrounded without a plan

#

You could also consider going all in on the mark mechanic and using a Sniper as your artillery anyway- Knight objectively helps it out and while Assassin Prones do debilitate Sniper’s Mark, it still puts the PCs marked by the sniper but at risk of Assassin in a situation with few good options

upbeat obsidian
#

Hm maybe

upbeat obsidian
#

oh should i ask my players what they specifically thought about the prototype pattern group npcs?

velvet cairn
ashen crown
#

You can take cover from a sniper- you can’t take cover from a Bombard

#

And Assassins are much easier to pin down than Specters

#

It’s a more fair combo than Bombard-Specter. Also Bombard-Specter is a good combo so I’d say this is also a good combo

vagrant grotto
#

Just “how did you feel about X?”

#

Don’t ask it in a leading way, I just wanna know how they felt about it

upbeat obsidian
#

what do you mean by leading way

vagrant grotto
#

Like don’t lead them to a certain opinion

Don’t do: “did X feel good?” Or “did X feel bad?”, or “did X feel balanced/unbalanced?”

Do: “How do you feel about X?”

upbeat obsidian
#

alright

umbral sluice
#

Minor question Valk, when you use the PPG NPCs are there specific tokens you tend to use for them? I like using them as a kind of visual indicator like "oh this guy has a big hammer we should stay away" even before knowing what they do.

vagrant grotto
#

I have basic placeholders but otherwise I use existing approximations in the retrograde factions

velvet cairn
#

Project Mordekaiser as Knight

upbeat obsidian
#

i use pishly tokens, somewhat

velvet cairn
#

Players instinctively know

vagrant grotto
#

HA Arthur on retrograde for Knight for me

#

Oleander for capacitor

muted blaze
#

Not emperor?

vagrant grotto
#

MOI Nimue for Mesmerist, MOI Solomon for Zealot

vagrant grotto
muted blaze
#

Ah fair

#

Arquebus lookin' ass

S9FxR-KEoFpL6w6LL2exeDeTd5GOmCW7llT4GY9hHs4.webp
umbral sluice
#

Thank you! Also could I get you guys' thoughts on using a Kensei instead of a Demo in the classic Mirage + Demo set up? (This is for Denial Of Service for the IGF heads in here)

vagrant grotto
#

Hatchet is a double axe Blackbeard with SMN

muted blaze
vagrant grotto
#

Uhh Kensei is the MOI Amakusa iirc

#

Occultist is MOI Medea

umbral sluice
#

Hm, so a bit more aggressive than I'd really like, and the comp already has enough damage

vagrant grotto
#

Prism is DFG Wrath with a gun

#

Torrent is lurker in a pinch

umbral sluice
#

I'm just trying to sprinkle in the PPG NPC's to see how they perform in environments largely with normal NPCs

muted blaze
placid glacier
#

I know I edited up an OR🅱️ ™ version of the Torrent a while back

vagrant grotto
#

Oh: Amber Phantom with Gun is one of my Prism variants

#

Napalm was MOI Ptolemy but the MO&S Phoenix or EC Salamander also work well

#

Anchor was MO&S Rasputin but I think the DFG… mine guy? Or the HA Tcuevsky (sic) would work

muted blaze
placid glacier
vagrant grotto
#

Occultist Moloch Drone is Solomon Belial Shard drone

#

Ghost is currently “calendula with a hooded head and no weapons” and it’s frankly mid at the moment lol

vagrant grotto
muted blaze
#

OMG the MO&S Rasputin is goofy I love it

ashen crown
vagrant grotto
#

I used the turret eye on mine

#

But something from BDF may be better

muted blaze
#

A mann

vagrant grotto
#

Yup that’s it

#

To a T

muted blaze
#

I think I couldn't use it

#

Too cute

vagrant grotto
#

I forget the Vulture, wasn’t many good fits. I think I used a recent one

mild trail
vagrant grotto
#

Vulture stand in

muted blaze
#

ASV PEREGRINE?

vagrant grotto
#

Not a lot of big heavy wing options

#

Literally want The Vulture in mech form

muted blaze
#

I see

#

Anchor?

vagrant grotto
#

Sure I could see it

#

DFG Sloth is appropriate

muted blaze
#

AA ANI could also be vulture?!?!?

vagrant grotto
#

again these are placeholders for “pattern groups” aka generics

#

Many correct answers

muted blaze
#

Yee

#

One of the strengths of basic NPC PGs

#

HA Bastion for example

image.png
umbral sluice
#

Any thoughts on trading a Rebaked Rainmaker (atlas missiles) for a Napalm? I was thinking it could serve a similar artillery with a splash of controller purpose

muted blaze
#

Vulture :>

image.png
placid glacier
#

Behold! My... [searches up group name for vultures]

... Committee!

vulture.png image.png image.png
muted blaze
#

GUYS

#

THEM GUYS

umbral sluice
#

The Lads

muted blaze
#

Lads even

placid glacier
#

I kinda wanna redo the generic vulture I cooked up a while back... (the one I used for the HUC vulture with minor changes)

umbral sluice
placid glacier
#

that's the pilebunker with the ASV Peregrine

umbral sluice
#

Wow I can't believe I never looked at that one, thank you

umbral sluice
#

@vagrant grotto Sorry for the ping, but may I ask if the Hatchet's Reckless Dive can be used with Ram and Grapple? It reads to me as yes but I thought to ask just in case

vagrant grotto
#

Good catch, I’ll add that next patch

umbral sluice
#

I see I see, I was thinking that it would be somewhat harder to use if it only has the axe and threw it this turn, then I saw I could just ram with it but I was worried that may be a bit too much tbh

vagrant grotto
#

Ahhhhhhh good point

umbral sluice
#

the way I'm reading this NPC, it's that you want to Retrieval -> Throw past the second turn, but that leaves the axe out of hand

vagrant grotto
#

Yeah good catch again

#

I should have it immediately retrieve one thrown weapon too then hm

umbral sluice
#

nothing wrong with any of this btw, just thinking if the Dive would be too hard to use really, or was the less efficient rotation an intended consequence of the resistance reaction

vagrant grotto
#

Wait I could adjust the trigger

#

“Enemy adjacent to one of the Hatchet’s thrown weapons hits the hatchet with an attack”

#

“Hatchet interrupts, moves up, retrieves the weapon (triggering flip kick), and attacks”

#

Maybe

umbral sluice
#

So a sort of "don't attack me I'll have resistance" à la cataphract?

vagrant grotto
#

Yeah

umbral sluice
#

I think it works, it does solidify it as more of a "bullying one character in particular" with that optional along with the usual Slowing and Flip away, but I think that's kind of what the hatchet is going for already anyway? At least that's my read on it

vagrant grotto
#

All I know is that I’ve gotta rework Hatchet’s reactions a little bit

#

Reckless Dive was written with an old version of hatchet in mind

#

I think what I have to do now is have the reaction be vs taking damage, then they dive forward and use Cleaving retrieval. If the attacker fails the save, hatchet gets resistance

#

Helluva lot cleaner

#

I remember Return to Sender also drew some concern and I forgot to write it down in the tracker

umbral sluice
#

Think I'll golf pencil in this proposed version version for my upcoming game and I'll let you know how it went afterwards

vagrant grotto
#

Thank you!

umbral sluice
#

@vagrant grotto can I get a double check on this wording?

image.png
vagrant grotto
#

The gist is there even if the speed/movement language needs updated and CR targeting needs solidified

vagrant grotto
#

It begins...

image.png
steel apex
#

Oh shit, nice

vagrant grotto
#

I am going off the deep end lol

#

but I feel powerful for making Reserves that fuck around with the typical System Point and Talent Point progression on compcon

#

no talents allowed!

image.png
#

but yeah this is 90% a conversion of Talents -> Mech gear

#

I'll probably make another thread for this once I get further in

vagrant grotto
#

I get to reuse my Knight mechanics for an Exemplar 3 replacement 😌

image.png
steel apex
vagrant grotto
#

I may be putting a cart before the horse lol

but yeah I got energized when Pigsriot mentioned his table thought the idea was neat

#

I am now realizing I have NPC LCP data down pat but PC data is a new, daunting ballgame lol

vagrant grotto
# umbral sluice <@151414024003649537> can I get a double check on this wording?

This is my current writeup:

Reckless Dive
Trait, Recharge 5+, Reaction
Trigger: A hostile character adjacent to one of the Hatchet’s THROWN weapons damages the Hatchet.
Effect: The Hatchet moves up to its SPEED directly towards the attacker and then activates CLEAVING RETRIEVAL. If this forces the triggering character to make a save, the Hatchet gains RESISTANCE to all damage from the triggering attack.
#

it's much broader (any kind of damage) and only needs to force the save, not be a failing save

umbral sluice
#

I see, it looks much more consistent in application than the other version

#

it looks like you could potentially use this as a get off me tool if it moved up after throwing in melee

vagrant grotto
#

I'm also changing flip kick to 1/turn instead of 1/round, to account for this

umbral sluice
#

yeah that makes sense

#

also helps out elite ones that dont refresh 1/round effects every turn

#

(i think that's how it works anyway)

vagrant grotto
#

yeah exactly

umbral sluice
#

overall I think i like this version a lot more, thanks for the swift write up on it

vagrant grotto
#

I have yet to see someone take Whirlwind Kick on Hatchet...

#

I should do that next time I run one

ashen crown
vagrant grotto
#

Something I'm disappointed someone else hasn't come up with yet:

Calling the Hatchet a "Thrownin"

ashen crown
#

I gotta run a Hatchet at some point, in terms of flavor they’re my fav PPG NPC

#

I just gotta decide if Hatchet is more IPS-N coded or SSC coded lol

#

(It’s probably both)

vagrant grotto
#

all of the above! a hatchet with Plasma Knife is HA, Bola for IPS-N, and Dive for SSC

umbral sluice
#

I think IPSN coded tbh

vagrant grotto
umbral sluice
#

SSC seems too posh for a simple thing like an axe

vagrant grotto
#

it's all about being nimble

placid glacier
#

something something, masterwork tomahawk

vagrant grotto
#

legit I purposefully tore out references to tomahawks though I definitely had them on my mind

placid glacier
#

fair dos

granite saddle
#

Guess whose Birthday money finally came in 😎 (3 days late, but still)

image.png
ashen crown
vagrant grotto
muted blaze
#

I could see an SSC hatchet using throwing knives

ashen crown
#

Or flavor it as Sparri because they probably use axes

muted blaze
#

Yeah

#

I just had a horrid idea for a brigand optional...

vagrant grotto
muted blaze
#

Something something, when grappling an enemy. Do something like force a save and on a failure, break one of their weapons or systems

vagrant grotto
#

lol nice that's valid

#

break the thing over their knee

muted blaze
#

PC choice or brigand choice is the question

ashen crown
#

Does Kensei have something similar? I vaguely recall it having something similar

vagrant grotto
#

legit I'd replace Vandalize's effect with that

vagrant grotto
ashen crown
umbral sluice
#

whether that's a thing Valk wants is not for me to say

#

break your heavy vs break the third mount you arent firing anyways

ashen crown
#

If you really wanna steal from MGS maybe it’s a reaction that can specifically only be taken while grappling, though that’s really weird

#

But I imagine you could budget it similarly to Prying Claws- make it Limited 1 and all

muted blaze
#

Also brigands in a playtest when? 👀

ashen crown
#

No one likes Armor Lock Plating v_v

muted blaze
#

Wack idea

#

Veteran or ultra brigand traits

ashen crown
#

Ehhhhhh- I wouldn't, that feels like a bit too many layers deep into mechanics

muted blaze
#

Hence, "wack idea"

vagrant grotto
# 
Vandalize
Trait, Recharge 6+, Quick Action
The Brigand makes a contested Hull check against one character it is Grappling. If the Brigand succeeds, the Brigand chooses one of the character's weapon mounts; all weapons on that mount are destroyed. If the Brigand fails, the target chooses the mount instead.
muted blaze
#

😩

#

It's horrible

#

I love it

vagrant grotto
#

scratch that, Full Action

muted blaze
#

Yeah

umbral sluice
#

it's very mean but that's Brigand for you

ashen crown
#

COnsidering it's guaranteed to destroy something, you sure about not making this Limited 1?

umbral sluice
#

big repair sink imo

ashen crown
#

Also, should there be a clause on if there's no valid mount to destroy?

vagrant grotto
muted blaze
#

Wait a minute I need to check the wording on integrated mounts

#

Unless integrated mounts are a compconism

vagrant grotto
# 
Vandalize
Trait, Recharge 6+, Full Action
The Brigand makes a contested HULL check against one character it has grappled. The winner chooses one of the target’s intact weapon mounts; all weapons on that mount are destroyed.
#

Integrated mounts cannot be destroyed

#

see Lancer, p. 32

umbral sluice
#

what happens if they have no mounts left to destroy?

#

i assume nothing

muted blaze
#

Cool yeah

ashen crown
# vagrant grotto the Brigand must grapple them first. and maybe?

As just a "worst case scenario" kinda situation, an Elite w/ this could grapple a character, then spend 3 turns destroying all of a character's mounts if they're lucky w/ the REcharge rolls, and so long as the actions can be taken (only stunning the character or breaking the grapple can do that) the player is guaranteed to lose all their mounted weapons. It'll take fewer turns if the character has a superheavy or fewer mounts.

That is a worst case scenario, but various features in PPG and from other templates can make it more likely, such as Vulture auto recharging the trait and Ultra both potentially getting 3 turns/round as well as having Supereme Melee to grapple without using any actions.

IT's still an edge case, yes, but it's one that's still probable if Luck goes the wrong way rather than something the GM has to explicitly build for.

#

If you're okay with that then I've got 0 complaints, it's still a manageable situation for the players, has plenty of ways to be mitigated, and teamwork can solve it much more easily.

muted blaze
#

Mech wrestler, the snapper. Ultra brigand vulture

vagrant grotto
#

lemme check the Leech
+2/+4/+6 Hull
... sigh

muted blaze
ashen crown
#

Lecch's hull scales like that???

vagrant grotto
#

its agility is +3 at all tiers, in comparison

umbral sluice
#

leech got hands

muted blaze
#

What about a grapple the target CONTROLS

vagrant grotto
#

Shaka wanted the Leech to stay on

#

I may dial this back

ashen crown
vagrant grotto
#

nah controls is important

muted blaze
#

It's some counterplay

ashen crown
#

Fair nuff

vagrant grotto
#

how are you gonna break someone over your knee if you're not in control of the grapple

muted blaze
#

If you wrestle control you can stop it snapping your gun

ashen crown
#

Well I was imagining a leech crawling all over a mech and ripping apart their weapons as if they were jockeying it

muted blaze
#

Yeah that's also kinda cool...

ashen crown
#

Fun image, but probably not worth the mechanical headache

#

And while I did bring up the worst case scenario, I will say desigining around the worst case scenario isn't always necessary. Sometimes the Worst Case makes for some memorable moments, and it's not too common in the first place

vagrant grotto
#

.... ah hell. Does Grapple not explicitly say that the attacker is the "larger character" upon hitting

ashen crown
#

Nope

#

The attacker and the character in control of the grapple are explicitly 2 different things

vagrant grotto
#

okay it's in the faq

#

thank fuck

muted blaze
#

And that's CRB

ashen crown
#

Hence why Prying Claws is Limited 1 and does nothing on a successful save

#

If Vandalize were limited 1 a vulture could still cause the Worst Case scenario to occur, but it's now harder

#

With Vandalize as is, all you need to do is be lucky and control a grapple for at most 3 turns, which for a Veteran Elite or an Elite Leech or a Supreme Melee/Limitless Ultra is significantly easier. But it's still not easy

muted blaze
#

I 1/Scene per targets clause could work but that's wordy

ashen crown
#

Oh wait I have an idea!

muted blaze
#

Honestly if it fails forwards on a fail that does seem like grounds for it being limited 1 too

ashen crown
#

Using it ends the grapple

ashen crown
vagrant grotto
ashen crown
# ashen crown Using it ends the grapple

Even for the NPC kits that can grapple as a free action that still puts more rolls and checks in between the NPC and the effect, especially when it comes to using Limitless to Grapple

vagrant grotto
# 
Vandalize
Trait, Recharge 6+, Full Action
The Brigand makes a contested HULL check against a character it has grappled and is larger than for the sake of grappling. The winner chooses one of the target’s intact weapon mounts; all weapons on that mount are destroyed. The grapple then immediately ends.
ashen crown
#

There we go- puts several more steps between the uses, and ensures that a Brigand with a free action grapple has to chose between maintaining the grapple or performing Vandalize the same turn as the grapple.

#

Which puts it on similar toes to NPCs w/ Vandalize and w/o a way to free action grapple

velvet cairn
#

Question

image.png
#

How exactly does this work?
Do people in the Zeal Radii
just become immortal, incapable of dying until the UltraZel's first activation of the turn?

vagrant grotto
#

Yes, while Zeal is up, they cannot die

#

Find a way to work around that

umbral sluice
#

oh shit i want to run this now

#

iirc there's an ultra priest in the module i'm running so i could try replace it with an ultra zealot

ashen crown
umbral sluice
#

for some reason i read that as the first time they would be destroyed, like feign death kind of

umbral sluice
vagrant grotto
#

Solutions include:

  • forced movement
  • jam the zealot
  • overheat the zealot
  • kill the zealot
velvet cairn
#

Okay, so

you need to movement control the ultra/zealot?

#

or jam/overheat it?

ashen crown
#

Both good

vagrant grotto
#

There’s many potential solutions

umbral sluice
#

grapple the alies and drag them away from it before killing

vagrant grotto
#

Another includes putting an obstruction between the zealot and their ally

velvet cairn
#

Obstruction?

umbral sluice
#

something to break LOS would work

ashen crown
#

If you have LL2 Minotaur there are 1-2 fantastic fixes

umbral sluice
#

but that has to be a sizeable obstruction

umbral sluice
vagrant grotto
#

More stuff obstructs it than usual

umbral sluice
#

oh i know, but they can see over size 1 things (like TSS1 rock) no?

ashen crown
#

A Kobold can block it’s LoS

vagrant grotto
#

Or if their buddy is suitably tall

ashen crown
#

Though the rules for looking around the are muddy enough for size 1/2s that it depends on the GM

vagrant grotto
#

Or if they’re flying/standing on top of something

ashen crown
#

To me, “size = ability to evade and gain line of sight” in most situations so I’d rule it as “can’t look around for the most part” but it depends

umbral sluice
#

yeah that's actually cool, it being size 1/2 has a good justification other than flavour

#

(which to me kind of seems to be the case with other size 1/2 NPCs)

ashen crown
#

For Assassin it actually impacts them big time because it determines who they can and cannot ram prone

umbral sluice
#

yeah assassin i get

ashen crown
#

I think for the long range size 1/2s hitting their ability to draw LoS is pretty significant, particularly the Mirage w/ Blip- it’s hard for a Mirage to benefit from cover while also having clear LoS onto Hostiles in order to trigger Blip

#

The only ones it doesn’t really impact is Hornet and kinda Priest imo. Hornet flies so who cares about LoS and priest is close range enough and requires LoS for Investiture so it doesn’t really benefit much from cover anyhow

#

‘part from that I think Size 1/2 is generally fairly impactful on NPCs so long as LoS is ran somewhat strictly

umbral sluice
#

perhaps more than i gave it credit for, now that you say it

granite saddle
#

also ram is so fucking good, so lower sizes don't ge to use it as much

ashen crown
#

Only really impacts the Assassin because like. If any of the other size 1/2s find themselves in a situation where they can ram they’re basically 60 seconds from death

#

At least in CRB, Zealot’s different

vagrant grotto
velvet cairn
#

@vagrant grotto

If you don't mind me asking, what was the combination you used to make the Capacitor token/character in those playtests?

#

I can't seem to find it in Retrograde minis

vagrant grotto
velvet cairn
#

ah, ty

placid glacier
#

Like. Still mid encounter so the thoughts aren't fully formed- (plus like. A lot of other things happening) but I got a little bit of feedback

#

Party (LL4) -
Hacktuga
Pegasus
Lanny
Calendula

Torrent

Very simple Torrent, only had Crashing Tsunami

  • Players caught off guard by the cone 5 melee, and it threw first turn plans out of whack by knocking everyone off the Lanny- (which I'm realizing should have incurred prone but I forgot) and forced a change of plans immediately
  • Players rolled well and killed it quickly after though
  • players thought fighting around the knock back was fun
  • still need to bring another one in with the party more entrenched to see how it fares with messing up defensive posture

Anomaly

Only anomaly so far is a juiced up Goliath (Elite Commander)

  • Enemy was scanned immediately
  • Spatial Rend was taken well by the party though
#

Not fully formed thoughts like I said but. Some observations made and thoughts asked of the party

vagrant grotto
#

Nice, appreciate the report!

muted blaze
#

Is it not cone 3?

vagrant grotto
muted blaze
#

Ah mb

dapper goblet
#

Oh! I ran an ultra occultist the other day

#

(Also a zealot but it was late reinforcements and didn't do much)

#

I think occultist has a real 'multiples' problem in that its okay as one, but quickly becomes a hassle if you have multiple activations worth of occultists on the field at a time due to how freely they can just stick people with Jam

#

However, the elite upgrade was super fun. I paired it with the similar anomaly feature and flavored the guy as a drone master sticking bits and bobs on the autonomous cataphracts or whatever that composed the rest of the opfor

dapper goblet
ashen crown
#

Actually now that I’m looking at it drone destruction does a lot while requiring not a lot of investment. Did it come up a lot where a single Reap the Chaff would impact multiple characters? And were the players on top of destroying Flock Drones?

#

Looking at the math, an Occultist deploys with 2 Flock Drones and can deploy 2 more as a quick action, and Reap the Chaff can destroy only one drone at a time. Meaning unless the players are actively destroying the drones, it can pretty trivially only need to deploy flock drones every other turn (attacking with Diviner Darts or Quick Action move drones, or hell just deploy 2 more drones) while being able to Reap the Chaff every turn

#

Which in direct comparison to comparable NPC traits (Restock Drone being recharge, Dispersal Shield being recharge, Impale Systems being recharge) does look like a bit much on paper

#

Though Flock Drones deploying adjacent to the Occultist probably helps counterbalance, but I am curious about how much it counterbalanced in practice

#

Sorry about the tangent I just hadn’t taken a good gander at the Occultist before now

vagrant grotto
#

Reap the Chaff is Ordnance, so I can see how it might play with Elite/Ultra at least

dapper goblet
#

Yeah i do think this may be an elite/ultra specific problem

vagrant grotto
#

I’ve run 2x Occultist before without too much issue though

dapper goblet
#

Or rather a "multiple activations" one given reap the chaff isnt sensitive to who deploys it i think? I dunno

#

Maybe my players were just fumbling agi saves lol

#

This is a sample size of 1 combat and i did not collect hard data

vagrant grotto
#

But yeah counterplay is

  1. Hack/shoot drone
  2. Walk away from drone
  3. Kill occultist
#

Multi activation is valid feedback

dapper goblet
#

Also my players have a really bad habit of looking at ultra controller/support/defenders and saying "so we just dont wanna shoot it lol"

Shoot the drone is decent counterplay but if nobody's packing large aoe it winds up as very action negative for players

vagrant grotto
#

Hard data is fine but often not as useful as the simple “how did this feel”

dapper goblet
#

(And multi-activation means "walk away" isnt always something you'll have the chance to do)

vagrant grotto
#

Yup yup

dapper goblet
#

When talking about design I think a lot about one story from borderlands 2 development

#

They were designing one of the earlier areas in the game - skag gulley? If memory serves? Not important - and they were consistently getting feedback that the area was too large. They kept shrinking it to the point where it felt too small, and they just couldn't get it to a point where it felt "right sized"

#

Eventually they restored it to the normal size and just tripled the enemy count. No more complaints.

vagrant grotto
#

(Unrelated: Lol occultist is on page 13)

dapper goblet
#

Ominous

#

Anyway I gotta go shop for a dinner party now but yeah I think multi-activation occultist might need some more consideration. Im not sure how id fix it because making deploying/moving the drones cumbersome would feel bad. Maybe start by making jam on RTC single target? Occultist already soft-counters melee balls with the heat (which most melee strikers tend to be soft to) so just windmill slamming a multi-person jam feels rough.

twin escarp
#

It's controlled drone or allied grunt

#

You don't control your ally's drones

ashen crown
#

Does Ordnance mean the Occultist can’t use Reap the Chaff on adjacent drones or grunts?

umbral sluice
#

they still can RAW, because Ordnance cares about Engagement not adjacency

upbeat obsidian
#

It’s so joever

#

striker dpr brained players would perish

vagrant grotto
upbeat obsidian
#

Real

#

What about 5 ultra zealots in a immortal death ball

#

Think about it

vagrant grotto
#

“What about 5 ultra”
Imma stop you right there

upbeat obsidian
#

Hhahahaa

#

5 player Escort with 5 ultra zealots

#

On budget, I’ll say that

#

The lore implications of 5 ultra zealots

dapper goblet
#

Yeah but valk have you considered your homebrew breaks if i field 8 ultra strikers?! Huh?! Idiot.

vagrant grotto
#

(I did this before you posted lol)

umbral sluice
#

I do have some feedback from the session now,
From players:

  • Reckless Dive definitely caught them by surprise, they didnt expect that whatsoever
  • Felt it was actually really fair once they saw that it could do that thing, since they can just walk away from the axe that is on the ground
  • They proposed some kind of telegraph or signaling that the axe is dangerous while on the ground (due to Cleaving Retrieval) and has more interactions than just the usual picking up for thrown weapons
  • The chain of Reckless Dive -> Cleaving Retrieval -> Kick Flip was a little hard to follow what's going on
    Overall, they liked the NPC and think it was fair, and said to tell you that you did a good job
#

From myself:

  • The hatchet did miss every attack it made lmao (GMS smoke charge goated), but Cleaving Retrieval still felt like it gave it a threatening presence even if it can't roll for shit
  • The knockback that CR has would've been super helpful (control sitrep) if not for the fact the guy getting targeted by the hatchet positioned himself well to not be pushed away (good on him), so imo it's powerful but has counterplay as all knockback does
  • Felt nice and mobile so I used it to push one of the more PC sided control zones, overall I think it feels good on movement between 5 speed and Kick Flip
  • I did kind of wonder can you move the axe in some way once it's down on the floor as some sort of counterplay? Random thought that popped in my head as I was running it
  • Bit more paperwork tracking where the axe falls than most NPCs but it's honestly fine
    Overall I liked it, even if it died a bit fast, though it being targeted over the Demolisher (rebake so it's scarier than normal due to Earthshatter) meant that it clearly was perceived as a significant threat. Definitely an odd feeling throwing a new NPC at the players they dont actually know yet but it was fun. I'll probably try run a multi structure one at a later point to see how it plays with some different optionals and living a bit longer, overall I give it a Thumbs Up
#

@vagrant grotto oh also the ping, no idea if this feedback is any useful but I thought to send it over anyways

vagrant grotto
muted blaze
umbral sluice
#

Damn it why didnt I come up with that in the moment

muted blaze
#

IT CAME WITH YOUR MECH

#

YOU HAVE SCAN

umbral sluice
#

I have the lowest sensor mech known to man (they were all in Everests lmao)

muted blaze
#

IT CAME WITH YOUR DEFAULT GMS_STANDARD_SCANNING_AND_EWARFARE_SUITE

umbral sluice
#

I mean, I'm not saying I agree with their thoughts, but I did want to communicate them to Valk, because there is a point where poorly telegraphed things are annoying to deal with (looking at deathcounter) even if I personally don't think the hatchet is there

umbral sluice
muted blaze
ashen crown
#

Plus it’s negatable/ignorable, which is the reason people have issue with Deathcounter vs everything else- Deathcounter negated the entire effect- reactions don’t tend to do that

sudden cosmos
#

Gonna be fielding an elite kensei tomorrow to act as a buddy for a witch. Let's see how it goes ratJAMMIN

steel apex
#

Like I did give one to deathcounter, but should you also give one to barrel roll, because it's a similar no-sell, etc

#

part of it is, if I'm understanding the context correctly, that not a lot in lancer really primes players to be particularly wary of a thrown melee weapon lying on the ground

ashen crown
#

I suppose, though Barrel Roll has more counters, like Reliable damage, slow, or reaction shutdowns. Deathcounter cannot be prevented in any way other than burning it, and it completely shuts down whatever it blocks unless it's outright Paracausal

vagrant grotto
#

Legit it’s (edit: Reckless Dive) basically a Special Rebound

#

Does Rebound deserve a telegraph? I don’t know maybe. But not like Deathcounter

steel apex
#

The flipside to this is unless it's been updated to be way gnarlier, I'm also not sure I see Cleaving Retrieval being a huge problem personally

vagrant grotto
#

It’s an agility save vs 4 damage and knockback

steel apex
#

it's like 4 damage and some displacement

#

yeah

#

armor affects it independently, etc

#

it's not NOTHING to be sure

#

it's functionally akin to a +1d6 of bonus damage

ashen crown
#

That too, plus the Hatchet- regardless of if it has Cleaving Retrieval Reckless Dive or not- demands players not be near their thrown weapon, meaning on a second encounter it's simply further punishing what it's already demanding players not to do

steel apex
#

but in terms of things that make people go "oh fuck this," it's no deathcounter

umbral sluice
#

I generally agree with you Kai that CR isn't a big problem, I just wanted to be as honest as I can with the player's thoughts

#

Ultimately it is a subjective thing I think, and I believe a part of it at least was seeing a new NPC they didn't already have figured out (they're used to the rebake ones already)

sudden cosmos
vagrant grotto
#

Oh hey that sounds familiar

#

At least you know the matchup lol

sudden cosmos
#

The joke is on them because the actual mission has a TON of burning, but this test combat is gonna be rude as I face down a build that's 90% of my go-to LL6 build

#

Kensei shred gonna go crazy if it lands though

vagrant grotto
#

Yeah…

#

Keep me posted! Good luck have fun!

umbral sluice
#

Any thoughts on a Zealot with an Elite Vet Pyro? I'm thinking using Emberlight to apply burn to capitalise on and using Zeal to help other enemies in the encounter

#

and then the condition steal thing in case it gets CC'ed too hard or stunned by structure damage

vagrant grotto
#

Sounds fun then

sudden cosmos
#

hey valk stop me if you've heard this one before

image.png
vagrant grotto
#

“Blinded white witch locked down by a Kensei”? Welp lol

sudden cosmos
#

just off-screen

image.png
umbral sluice
main wave
sudden cosmos
#

(I explained that I've been the WW in this scenario, Valk)

vagrant grotto
#

My condolences to your reactor

sudden cosmos
#

He stabilized. It's fine.

vagrant grotto
#

At least you can see the Kensei in this case haha

sudden cosmos
#

Now the atlas in the DZ with dark cloud tear down standing right next to him on the other hand...

vagrant grotto
#

God that version of Narcissus was a mistake

sudden cosmos
#

We have disarming parry'd a shotgun into dangerous terrain

umbral sluice
vagrant grotto
#

Regarding Hatchet and Reckless dive from yesterday: As Smallest said, if players know not to stand next to the thrown weapon, it’s more telegraphed. If it’s not the first time they’ve fought a Hatchet, the Hatchet would teach that naturally by simply using Cleaving Retrieval on its turn

umbral sluice
#

I had an evil idea for my future introductions of new NPCs actually: make them all anomalies that need to be scanned to know if they have templates

#

(none will have templates I just want them to scan)

#

Tell me if this is a bad idea

granite saddle
#

Anomaly spam will lessen the impact of the template, but if you weren't planning on using it in a more plot-important wat anyways, yeah sure I guess

#

Only so many times you can see an anomaly until it becomes the norm

umbral sluice
#

Hm yeah true

#

Maybe i should come up with another incentive to scan

#

NPC wants intel on experimental new developments of the enemy mechs; willing to give some kind of reserve for every X mechs scanned

vagrant grotto
#

But having unfamiliar names does the same thing anyway

umbral sluice
#

True true

#

In any case I'll probably point out to them that "hey you should scan unfamiliar things" at least and then go from there and see

ashen crown
vagrant grotto
#

Nah I get it, “oh no another weirdo” fatigue is real

ashen crown
#

I’m not saying it’s not possible but I doubt it’s easy compared to other templates

ashen crown
# umbral sluice In any case I'll probably point out to them that "hey you should scan unfamiliar...

In my eyes, the more disadvantaged the players are when it comes to action economy, the less likely they are to scan. If they’re dealing with like 9 untemplated enemies they expect them to die before they become too big a concern so scanning won’t have long term benefits.

Meanwhile if the players are facing like 4 or 5 enemies, even if they’re templates, they’re more likely to scan because the action economy loss won’t be as penalizing and they’ll be dealing with the enemies longer

vagrant grotto
#

Thinking about how using 3-4 of the same enemy in the same fight makes scans more valuable immediately

#

The value of dnd and pathfinder’s approach with many of the same guy is less recall knowledge is necessary

ashen crown
#

I should probably reward scan more often by clarifying that if 3 guys are the same after scan, I haven’t been doing that

vagrant grotto
#

Do it before hand

#

Otherwise they don’t know the value

ashen crown
#

Fair

vagrant grotto
#

“These three fuckers look identical; you’ll get 3 enemies’ stats for the price of one scan”

sudden cosmos
#

party thoughts on the kensei:

  • they liked it
  • Is disarming retaliation being able to hit a weapon not used to attack it intentional? (I didn't do this, but it's worded where that's possible)
vagrant grotto
#

Glad they liked it!

#

If it’s abusable (like disarming a weapon not used yet in a skirmish/barrage) then I’ll reconsider

sudden cosmos
#

The concern they made was like "what if I lead with a dagger and they disarm my heavy"

#

or "what if they disarm the superheavy I didn't attack with"

umbral sluice
#

In Lancer it's a viable tactic to just shoot your HMG at the problem until it stops moving and I'm in a group that does this without fail

#

(I assume this is less prominent when you cut Autostab and Opcal as core bonuses but I dont think I'm ready to make that jump yet)

vagrant grotto
#

starting to add the Long Rim frame changes I mentioned last week to my house rule docs

placid glacier
vagrant grotto
#

Regarding Atlas's base stats: I recognized that the Atlas License is actually Save and SP heavy, so it seemed natural to buff those stats instead of doing a simple "Hull Buff"

#

So, Caliban is actually the size 1/2 mech that gets more than 6 HP, in line with the IPS-N Hull Standards

#

and everybody with less than 5 sensors gets 'em bumped to 5

umbral sluice
#

is there a readable version that isnt an LCP anywhere?

vagrant grotto
#

unfortunately all I have is my documentation

ashen crown
umbral sluice
#

5 speed caliban let's goooo

vagrant grotto
#

the docs aren't perfect, but they get the point across

umbral sluice
#

yeah pursue prey is 1/round now but i like this

vagrant grotto
#

yeah Atlas and Caliban had huge deficits (relative to Everest) in the HASE department so I felt good with giving Caliban some Blackbeard speed

umbral sluice
#

my experience with caliban is that the hard part is actually getting to the target, and this helps a lot with that i think

#

moving with them is fun but notably less important imo

vagrant grotto
#

I felt justified in giving Atlas average E-Def since several other SSC mechs have that kind of E-Def

if anyone disagrees, my argument is "it's the E-Def of a human, which is basically what Atlas is"

umbral sluice
#

12 save target atlas is very intriguing i think

#

i would be very curious to see how that plays

vagrant grotto
#

given that 4/6 of its licensed gear inflicts saves, I think it'll get some mileage

#

but yeah like, Atlas is a frame that just strikes me as "I will use tools, gear, and unconventional methods to achieve my striker goals"

#

it wants to use convert its SP into damage with Ricochet Blades and Final Clash

umbral sluice
#

i do think this version fulfils on the Attack on Titan fantasy a bit more than standard atlas

dapper goblet
#

having made and playtested a save-based atlas alt i can confirm that yeah, this jives

velvet cairn
#

Making an anchor footslog to where it needs to go

Succcccks

#

Speed 3, boost for 6

#

Then again it's probably a good thing

vagrant grotto
#

I mean if it’s too slow then that’s valid feedback

#

Big NPCs tend to be way too slow for their size in general

velvet cairn
#

Idk

Aegis has the same speed

#

But somehow I have more issues on a vibe level with anchor being slow

#

Than aegis

#

And idk why I have that vibe

#

Commentary by player on anchor from game yesterday

#

I gave it reality anchor Omninet grounding

vagrant grotto
#

I mean no wonder it feels like it’s better than aegis in that case

#

Aegis is better at keeping itself alive too though

ashen crown
#

I will say when I tried using the Anchor I learned it’s a bit of a high skill ceiling NPC- super strong but also kinda easy to play terrible

#

And also a fair note about Anchor vs Aegis- when attacking from the outside in, Anchor exhibits a stronger bonus than Aegis (negating crits and applying an accuracy penalty vs just outright denying attacks).

However, in terms of attackers coming from the inside or melee attacks, Anchor doesn’t do shit regardless of its optionals unless it’s Intangible related, and only slows enemies within. Meanwhile Aegis grants immunity to Slowed and Impaired, and with Optionals resistances, or deals Heat and Shred,

#

And Anchor requires an optional to do anything against tech, meaning against the wrong PC comp it’s going to struggle bad. Meanwhile an Aegis is rarely going to struggle based on team comp alone, with the condition immunities even shoring up against save based enemies

#

There’s also the fact the Anchor cannot benefit from Lodestone, which is noteworthy

#

Defense Net protecting the Aegis means that damage output going into the Defense Net from the outside is reduced across the board, whereas the Anchor simply redirects the damage output towards itself. Thanks to Siege Armor however which one is stronger is debatable, though it’s likely the Anchor

vagrant grotto
#

Yeah Aegis is more likely to outright prevent attacks while Anchor simply makes sure the attacks target itself, first

ashen crown
#

I think the only scenarios in which the Lodestone area would literally have no valid targets is either if the Anchor is somehow hidden or fully obscured (difficulty due to Size 3), or if the attacker couldn’t move the 3 spaces required to enter range (if that happens that’s on the player)

#

I will say Lodestone is way better against blast radii however, or just AOEs in general

sick gorge
#

So. I have a question about the Recharge Heat rule. Is the Heat (Self) X tag supposed to replace the Recharge X+ tag, or is it gained in addition to the Recharge X+ tag?

#

It was implemented into a game I was in by replacing the tag entirely (although it was an old version with the 1, 2, and 3 heat) and that genuinely worked well enough that none of us questioned it replacing the recharge tag, but when I introduced the idea of using that rule in a game I'm about to run, we all took a closer look at it and are now reading it like it's just adding a new tag and removing none

velvet cairn
muted blaze
vagrant grotto
#

None of my house rules are sacred

mild trail
ashen crown
vagrant grotto
ashen crown
#

Edited apologies

sudden cosmos
#

Thinking about fielding a Kensei tonight for party The Third

#

This time it'll be a vet

#

Or maybe an ultra thonkspin

vagrant grotto
#

Keep me posted!

sudden cosmos
#

3p- King of the Hill. Ultra Kensei with Mortal Draw is locked in. Unsure about the rest of the opfor

dapper goblet
#

faintly

Give the kensei spacer grav rifle its funny

#

Jokes aside ive found that supports, mirages, and cataphracts play nice with kensei. Anything that can move them or enemies around

umbral sluice
#

loudly
Listen to jabberwock

#

Sounds peak

sudden cosmos
#

I'm thinking it's gonna roll out with a hive and bastion buddy

#

And then more NPCs come out to maintain +1 activations on the party

#

Support might be funny though

muted blaze
#

Vaaaaaaaalk

vagrant grotto
#

What’s up

muted blaze
#

Probs wanna run a one shot with my mates and try my hand at using wacky NPCs, anything you want tried?

muted blaze
#

Bonus points if you want brigand optionals tested

vagrant grotto
#

Vulture, several normal vultures

#

Brigand stuff on non vultures is great too

#

But I need to know if Vultures still have a “what do I do with my actions” problem

#

Also if their 2 armor is still too much paired with their OS

muted blaze
#

Sounds good

ashen crown
vagrant grotto
#

Theyve gotten some feedback but I want more on general gameplay feel

muted blaze
#

Hmmmm

ashen crown
#

Specifically multiple untemplated vultures not the class in general

muted blaze
#

I might use occultists with rebake engineers...

#

Any vet traits you want tested?

vagrant grotto
#

I added reloading to vulture too so that’s major

ashen crown
#

Ah right I forgot!

vagrant grotto
ashen crown
#

Oh yeah Dandelion is extremely different now

vagrant grotto
#

Capacitor also got a facelift with lower/less overshield

#

Need to know if I need to add some back for them to have teeth

#

Occultist would be great for testing too, in all forms

ashen crown
vagrant grotto
#

Finally make something worth being a protocol

ashen crown
#

The soft cover is also quite a bit stronger too which is interesting. What was the logic behind the LoS debuff?

vagrant grotto
ashen crown
#

… shoot did I not run it like that when I ran the vultures?

twin escarp
vagrant grotto
#

Los debuff was mostly included to give some protective support/control power ish

#

I figured it was soft enough control to benefit a support without making it a support/controller

ashen crown
#

Unless you’re a sniper

muted blaze
#
  • 1× Commander brigand sniper
  • Vulture
  • Brigand Occultist
  • Brigand engineer
  • Brigand Vet mesmerist
  • Brigand elite capacitor
#

Sounds like a good roster?

twin escarp
#

The main difference i would think is you can do it once before needing to magpie but you can stabilize if you can't magpie

umbral sluice
#

i do also have a question here, does 1/2/3 OS not seem a teensy bit weak to anyone else if the trigger condition is death or structure damage? maybe i'm overlooking something here though

image.png
vagrant grotto
#

It may be!

umbral sluice
#

good point actually! i will do so

vagrant grotto
#

But I was consolidating number profiles for FanCharge and this took the hit too

vagrant grotto
umbral sluice
#

yeah i do get fanatic charge having the lower OS value when it's also a ferrous lash

vagrant grotto
#

Lotta variety but it’s got character

muted blaze
#

Wait...

#

Capacitor + two units which spam drones

#

Beware, the 2 hp turret

umbral sluice
#

holy shit

#

rebake turrets are great! my players came up with a cool idea to get them all with a howitzer, which proceeded to miss 4 attacks in the AoE on the turrets lmao

vagrant grotto
#

As always hmu with your feedback so I know where I need to apply the wrench

muted blaze
#

Would diviners darts proc overwatch?

vagrant grotto
#

Yes that was intentional now I think

muted blaze
#

Sick

vagrant grotto
#

If I bait an Overwatch with a drone that’s a win IMO

muted blaze
#

Yeah

vagrant grotto
#

Esp if it’s made while they’re in range to take 1 heat

muted blaze
#

If the threats greater than 1 then it's somewhat a win

vagrant grotto
#

I will happily tease “ha, baited your Overwatch” though

umbral sluice
#

and if it's only 1 threat it's going to be hard for them to trigger the overwatch unless the drone is already adjacent and moves again for some reason

muted blaze
#

Vanguard 3 IG

vagrant grotto
#

And then capitalize on it

muted blaze
#

Like, if you have vanguard 3 and a threat 1 cqb like the flamethrower IG

vagrant grotto
muted blaze
#

I really wanna see a kensei with posture break played at some point

sudden cosmos
#

Well I have good news about what I'm playing tonight

#

It's a Kensei with posture break!

muted blaze
#

Ah sick

granite saddle
vagrant grotto
#

Do they need to be different

#

It’s about cognitive overhead reduction

#

Kai mentioned focusing on that in Rebakes and mentioned it for some of mine and I tend to agree with the goal

#

Example of this is how I made Napalm’s optional stuff more unified in their numbers

#

Capacitor too, in terms of OS profiles

muted blaze
#

Is it the "this guy applies X burn to you... So lemme check if they deal 3 4 or 2 depending on the ability"

granite saddle
#

Yeah but I'm already reading the number each and every time

#

So I don't really see what that changes

#

Like, overhead on this is already reduced because it's written down on the ability that I'm using

#

It starts being a problem when it's something that "lives outside the sheet" if that makes sense.

#

I think even trying to memorise all the values your NPCs have is the real overhead problem, but that's probably an opinion actually so sure do what you want.

muted blaze
#

Like if someone runs into a razor swarm I go "2 burn" without checking

#

And if an elite pyro has multiple burn oriented abilities, if they all do the same amount when they just inflict damage, I'm more likely to remember it, but if someone has a lingering effect for 2 burn and one for 3 burn, I'll be more likely to double check the ability every time it becomes relevant

#

If it's flattened out to all the same value I'll be more likely to memorise it

granite saddle
#

Actually that's fair for lingering effects yeah. 'specially on the Napalm since that's kind of it's whole deal.

ashen crown
#

I will note Martyrdom has a limit on the number of times it can trigger, with the limit being the amount of structure the Zealot has. So it has more reason to have unique Overshield and Burn values than other abilities, so long as testing proves the given values are too low

#

I do agree in homogenizing numbers across a sheet however, very useful

vagrant grotto
ashen crown
#

Good call, just sort of noting that if the numbers prove too low the nature of the ability permits the numbers to differ from the rest of the sheet and be buffed

vagrant grotto
#

yup I'm keeping an eye on it

ashen crown
#

Flash of brilliance- a Zealot is really good to reflavor as a Bard of some kind

#

Another flash of brilliance (that could cause an imminent Zeal nerf)- Zeal affects drones (in v1.11 it just says allies nothing about being mech allies). Latch Drone is an allied drone. Undying faith is a thing.

Ultra Zealot w/ Undying Faith and a Latch Drone Support ally.

vagrant grotto
#

sigh it’ll get an update

ashen crown
#

Thought it would be an undesired interaction lmao

#

Probably for the best- I think Undying Faith prevents destruction via Reap the Chaff too

#

Could be wrong tho

vagrant grotto
#

Yeah it technically does

#

It’s unintended

ashen crown
#

I’d ask whether it prevents the benefits from occurring too but that’ll be a moot point since it’s getting patched out… I guess grunts would be unaffected but that’s a different ballpark

vagrant grotto
#

Grunts are affected by Undying at the moment

umbral sluice
#

I'm not sure how you could patch out grunts being affected really

#

Do you just call out Grunt specifically

vagrant grotto
#

Yup, like you would with Avenger

muted blaze
#

I love zealots and how much it keeps snagging itself on edge cases

#

"Fine, I'll patch out the 1 burn dealt on tech attacks"

vagrant grotto
#

I empathize with Tom more and more every day

muted blaze
#

Ultra zealot puppeteer

vagrant grotto
#

I’m not patching that yet

umbral sluice
#

And there's only a small number of us finding loopholes here, imagine the horrors of having hundreds trying to break your game

vagrant grotto
#

“Finally, a QA team”

muted blaze
#

HUH

#

I just noticed a WACKY WILD synergy with brigand occultist

#

Just that lol

ashen crown
# muted blaze Ultra zealot puppeteer

That’s mixing 3rd party stuff and therefore outside the warranty of this project. Normally, Grunts are not unlimited the same way Drones are, and NPCs can be disabled via heat (including the Zealot) which is different from destruction, unlike drones where those are the same thing

muted blaze
#

Yes, but if I had an encounter specifically with lots of grunts and an ultra zealot my point still stands

#

I think what is bizarre...

#

What happens if an ally self destructs in sennsors of an ultra Zealot

muted blaze
# muted blaze

(I undo this somewhat because occultists can just do this on a tech attack as well... Wait but only for EONT, on recharge 5+ and on a tech attack)

ashen crown
ashen crown
sudden cosmos
#

Valk you're not gonna believe it but

image.png
ashen crown
# muted blaze What happens if an ally self destructs in sennsors of an ultra Zealot

Okay so this is me going off the Comp/CON text, but because it's just words I'm trusting it for now and will reference the rulebook if I get the chance

The explosion annihilates your mech, killing anyone inside and causing a BURST 2 explosion that deals 4d6 explosive damage. Characters caught in the explosion that succeed on an AGILITY save take half of this damage.

Keyword- "annihilates." Not destroys. Meaning, if you're being really technical about it, it gets around Undying Faith.

#

Operator's self erasure uses similar wording but because it requires the mech to be destroyed first it still benefits from Undying Faith just doesn't trigger Self-Erasure

#

Tom + Miugel really made sure that the only way to get around Self Destruct is by being a lich

sudden cosmos
vagrant grotto
#

Oh dear

vagrant grotto
#

And then however bad the Stun was, posture break would be less painful thinkaboutit

sudden cosmos
#

he passed YesYes

vagrant grotto
#

I continue to be unpunished for my design decisions PotPraise

sudden cosmos
#

The next time I use a Kensei will have it fighting against something that is guaranteed to not be a white witch because it'll be LL0

vagrant grotto
#

lol yeah no this sampling bias is relevant

#

“I know how Kensei does against (tweaked) WW but not against the rest of the cast”

sudden cosmos
#

They did seem to like it after calling it bullshit at first, but once they realized most of the bullshit was causes by it being an ultra that hard countered the comp (on accident) and that it wasn't really causing problems for them, they called it "cooler ronin"

#

I pointed out that they do different things but that me using the default ronin sprite probably didn't help

vagrant grotto
#

Sprites go a long way for this yeah

#

My placeholder for Kensei is the MOI Amakusa

sudden cosmos
#

I've switched to using the elite ronin for the base ronin and the default ronin for the kensei, but people probably don't have the context for that

vagrant grotto
sudden cosmos
#

Both of them experienced mild panic, followed by going "oh okay" when I mentioned they could just clear it through stabilize

#

They aren't the WW that I double-tapped with a breacher 3 times on a single mission so they've not experienced that yet

vagrant grotto
#

Title: Valk's Lancer Playground - Anti-Astroturfing
Game System: LANCER RPG
Platform: FoundryVTT
Chat: Voice through Pilot NET Discord, text through Foundry
Availability: 4 seats
Time: <t:1760205611:F> or <t:1760292040:F>, ~4-5 hours in length.
Tone: Fast and furious playtest skirmishes.
Hook: “Actors” (read: mercs) hired by Impact Dynamics have commandeered several broadcast antennae to play propaganda and ads on all radio channels. Kick em out!
Requirements: @ me in this channel with preferred day if you’re interested. If accepted, create an LL6 character using Massif-published content.
Details: This is a playtest for some of my homebrew NPCs and special house rules. Most of my houserules can be found here, but key highlights:

  • Overcharge lets you reroll an attack/check/save instead of take an extra action, and refreshes on a rest.
  • Aid lets you split Stabilize’s action cost between players!
  • Overkill is now opt-in: Choose to activate it or don’t!
  • Brace is 1/scene but now has no downside.
  • NPCs with Recharge abilities also take Self Heat from those abilities.
  • Overheating can inflict Overheated, which prevents use of self-heat abilities.
  • Structure Damage is replaced with picking between being Dazed or suffering System Trauma.
  • All mechs only have 1 Stress, become Exposed & Overheated upon reaching max heat cap, and take excess heat as irreducible Energy damage.
  • Lifting/Dragging rules are revamped to support Escort Objectives in a sensible way!

Other: I’m Valk! I’ve previously published a third-party module for Lancer. I run brisk and fluid combats. If you have any questions about the rules I plan to include, please ask!

sudden cosmos
#

Personally I think shredded until end of next turn might be the safer bet? It promotes the "back away" vibe because if you back away, the shred will fall off

vagrant grotto
#

(Sorry to interrupt, carry on)

sudden cosmos
#

Whereas permashred makes them back off AND stabilize, which is a bit of a stiff econ tax

#

But if they stay there and decide to 1v1 the kensei, they're gonna get slammed with charged attacks a couple times to re-up that shred and maybe have the kensei's buddies capitalize on it

vagrant grotto
#

Noted; I’m okay with stiff taxes for disregarding the Kensei tbf

#

But I’ll consider it

sudden cosmos
#

This party was a tech attack black witch (who didn't get close to the kensei), a Saladin (immune to shred), and the WW, so it's hard to measure that

umbral sluice
sudden cosmos
#

I can also do Sunday (possibly)

vagrant grotto
#

2 votes for Sunday nice

sudden cosmos
#

I've got a game Sunday morning but that team is pretty snappy, so it may wrap up before testing time

#

Saturday is probably not gonna work because that team loves their cross-talk

umbral sluice
#

Okay I am also free Saturday if need be, but still prefer Sunday

sudden cosmos
#

Also, I may switch builds? I kinda want to play emperor, but we'll see.

umbral sluice
#

I think I'll bring the Minotaur with the tech changes or the revised Caliban (assuming that's being included)

granite saddle
ashen crown
vagrant grotto
#

It’s not canon but cannons may be involved

ashen crown
#

Also I can believe this scenario very easily

umbral sluice
# 
[ LICENSES ]
  IPS-N Caliban 3, HA Sherman 3
[ CORE BONUSES ]
  Superior by Design, Sloped Plating
[ TALENTS ]
  Vanguard 3, !V! Exemplar 3, Skirmisher 2, Walking Armory 1
[ STATS ]
  HULL:4 AGI:0 SYS:0 ENGI:4
  STRUCTURE:4 HP:19 ARMOR:3
  STRESS:4 HEATCAP:11 REPAIR:7
  TECH ATK:-2 LIMITED:+2
  SPD:5 EVA:8 EDEF:8 SENSE:5 SAVE:14
[ WEAPONS ]
  Integrated: HHS-075 “Flayer” Shotgun
  HEAVY MOUNT: HHS-155 CANNIBAL (Supermassive Mod)
[ SYSTEMS ]
  ASURA-Class NHP x3, Redundant Systems Upgrade x3, Armament Redundancy```
chat is this too mean a build to bring to this game
vagrant grotto
#

I mean I’ve shifted Caliban so I’d love to see

umbral sluice
#

ASURA is just really really strong and I'd be okay if you told me no ASURA tbh

#

i will say the +2 base HP doesnt feel like much but because of it and the 5 speed I was able to take Sloped Plating instead of Reinforced Frame which is kind of the default Cali

vagrant grotto
#

Gonna make me push an ASURA patch aren’t you lol

#

Imma let it be for now

umbral sluice
vagrant grotto
#

If I did change it, it would be Maria’s

ashen crown
#

It almost feels like all your playtests are plagued by Calibans Valk

vagrant grotto
#

Nah not really

#

I’ve just seen Calibans in play (not just yours) and I’d rather shift its power

ashen crown
#

Oh I thought another playtest had a Caliban, my mistake

vagrant grotto
#

Pursue prey feels like a hack to overcome its low speed (and jk1 by extension)

#

Just like, if you want it to move fast, make it go fast 4head

ashen crown
#

And I didn’t mean it as a bad thing moreso just as a “they keep showing up” thing

umbral sluice
vagrant grotto
#

Anywho other folks feel free to post availability for the weekend, I’m running out of work screen time

dapper goblet
#

These are never when I can join videogames

steel apex
#

like on a very boiled down, stripped down level, Pursue Prey is just "this is a speed thing on a slow frame," but that it's tied to specific actions and outcomes creates a very different sort of dynamic and encouragement of action than just being natively fast, along with certain other restrictive elements that further play into this framework (i.e. you can't just decide to move + boost 12 spaces thataway, your movement is tied to knocking someone back both mechanically and directionally)

#

As a piece of frame-agnostic equipment, Jaeger Kunst 1 maybe has a harder time justifying itself because it's not frame locked and its qualifiers are a lot easier to simply use as a go-anywhere movement extension, but I think Pursue Prey is (for me) in exactly the right place for a thing that substitutes flat movement speed for a different kind of mobility

#

And if I'm being honest, I think JK1 is a thing that, if I were given to reinventing it, is something I would consider as an Atlas frame ability of some sort rather than licensed gear

ashen crown
#

Making JK 1 a frame trait is actually really interesting

#

I have doubts it would be within this project’s design intent but it is interesting overall

twin escarp
granite saddle
steel apex
#

Jaeger Dodge already has a bit of that baked in

#

it would also take it out of the license where it can't be poached and open up that spot for something else

twin escarp
muted blaze
#

I'm busy all weekend 😔

velvet cairn
muted blaze
#

I agree with Kai here

#

Like, I think it's a similar thing with Valks opinion on on talents

#

And how say accuracy can reward doing well tactically rather than in a build (but phrased better)

#

I think speed can somewhat be another thing, but most things about speed tend to be your speed comes from how you build it

#

Pursue prey (And JK1) is one of the only methods of increasing speeds that comes from playing tactically rather than from your build and is probably the strongest example of it

#

Sure, a caliban can move 12 tiles in a turn, but only 6 of those it actually controlled where the cali SPECIFICALLY wanted to go apart from "in a straight line towards the target"

#

Also different topic

#

my playtest/one shot thingg I had planned fell through to scheduling conflicts

#

I'm probs gonna run it for pilot net instead :P so hey uuuuh no confirmations but I'll probs run another playtest in a week which is basically "I kinda wanna see what valks house rules are like on the GM side"

twin escarp
vagrant grotto
# granite saddle I keep losing the link to her stuff. What's her ASURA change already ?

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ModxKO46FcsswE3ZNie_jTSewhlfD5DGZZhaRsfITp8/edit

Google Docs
Core and More Lancer revisions!

Core and More Lancer revisions, a set of personal House rules by Maria Lopez If you like these, try the Alternative Structure and Stress Rules table! PLAYER REVISIONS General: -The Prepare action can only be used to Skirmish. GMS Thermal Rifle Main Rifle, AP [8 Range] [1d3+2 Energy] Heavy...

vagrant grotto