#Prototype Pattern Groups

1 messages · Page 9 of 1

ancient solar
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But it also doesn't spend the quick action. I think it's about the same.

inland pilot
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which is why It evokes a lot of "defender" blood in my eyes - its all about forcing hard decisions, none of which are ever going to be good for you, but you gotta make the call

vagrant grotto
ancient solar
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I guess the double damage slash is better if it doesn't have other stuff to spend actions on.

inland pilot
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do you shoot them to force them to drop the stance, but for reduced damage? do you move and bait the Overwatch, and take some damage? or do you just hold your ground and pray it doesn't instantly kill you?

ashen crown
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Maybe toss in a condition or rider effect to the Unsheath Slash? If it's playing Defender some KNockback could be good

inland pilot
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theres good texture here because of that

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in what is otherwise such a simplistic package

inland pilot
ashen crown
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Fair enough

vagrant grotto
inland pilot
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the slash can't be too good or it kinda defeats the other options existing

ancient solar
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I'd expect the move-away-or-die enemy to be using a superheavy melee

inland pilot
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is how I look at it

ashen crown
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Might serve as a good optional then

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The Knockback idea I mean

vagrant grotto
ashen crown
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You could really do a lot with the optionals tbh

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Either leaning into the parry, the Sheath attack, or just regular attacking

vagrant grotto
inland pilot
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yeah I feel Demolisher is very good at that niche as is

vagrant grotto
inland pilot
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this feels like its trying to be more dynamic in how it can respond in lieu of brute force

ashen crown
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Demolisher is a walking "eff you," this reads more like a mobile striker whose threats are more telegraphed+counterable but also much harder to walk past without consequences

vagrant grotto
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This guy’s wind slash energy

ashen crown
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Maybe something wind related for the Class Name?

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Or steal from elden ring/general japanese culture and call it the Waterfowl

inland pilot
ancient solar
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There's the Kensei

vagrant grotto
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Mmmm there is that

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Yeah that might be the name to use, thanks _rng for the reminder it exists

ancient solar
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As well as Iaijutsu as an ability name

ashen crown
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tbh out of all the PPG gimmicks this one seems the most... "standard." I say that to not elevate it above the others or below them, but more as a statement of just saying it's not as funky with the mechanics while still bearing a fun amount of depth, making it easier to cold read

inland pilot
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but yeah thinking on the Saber I'm kinda like, unsure how to square the circle well of how to make it work out
obviously you want:

  • it to be the first action taken, no moving. i get why that is for obvious reasons
  • has to be a skirmish, to prevent skirmish -> skirmish plays and thus allowing it to really spike its damage output in an unfair fashion
  • preferably is an action so its not really getting free action econ (though this wouldn't be too bad to leave out, though it depends on how you feel about slash -> lock-on -> sheathe or w/e. it already spent a QA for it, so ...)
vagrant grotto
placid glacier
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could just be extra on the nose and go with "Jetstream" /j

vagrant grotto
inland pilot
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thats what i was kinda thinking too, yeah

placid glacier
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also: this is 100% the kind of enemy that would get my players going neuron activation

vagrant grotto
ashen crown
inland pilot
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thats the catch, yeah

vagrant grotto
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Ordnance really is about 4 negative tags in one, huh

inland pilot
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for real

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i do enjoy what Ordnance does but there are days where I'm like "it could of been cooler if it was two seperate tags"

ancient solar
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You could do something weird like "on attack: take heat equal to spaces moved this turn"?

inland pilot
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split the "must be first action" and "can't use in engagement or overwatch" into seperate things

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give more levers to pull for individual weapons

vagrant grotto
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“Unwieldy”: can’t attack adjacents
“Heavy”: can’t use with Overwatch
“Stable”: must be used first during a turn

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(Thinking about 3rd edition DnD reach weapons that were bad vs adjacents)

vagrant grotto
inland pilot
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i think it'd be a baller veteran optional tbh

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just "nah i can shuffle still, bitch" feels unique enough that it'd raise a brow

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i think as a regular optional it might feel a bit too much like a "gimme" by comparison

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kinda like deathcounter is to bastion

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even moving 1 space for 1 heat could make all the difference

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depends on its heatcap in the end

ancient solar
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I meant that the NPC would suffer heat if they moved before attacking

inland pilot
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but yeah - this means the best way to go about it is probably A: what you have now or B: saying "has to be the first action taken" or i suppose C: restrict actions that can be taken after

part of me almost feels as though it might be easier to just make it a bespoke action/protocol rather than a functionality of the blade but unsure

vagrant grotto
inland pilot
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i wish my brain could words thats for certain

vagrant grotto
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I get the concept

ashen crown
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Ya know, if we're in the realm of bespoke actions- can Short Cycle Lance target adjacent characters?

empty arrow
placid glacier
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Maybe something like it forces brace rules? (Only one quick action next turn?)

ashen crown
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Because if it can, then making it it's own System/Trait is a way to make it get around all that other muddy water with Ordnance

vagrant grotto
ancient solar
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You could have the sheathing action expend overwatch

inland pilot
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its more the scope of the hard decisions that reminds me yeah

vagrant grotto
inland pilot
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hahahaha

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to be fair i was thinking about that

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suffer brace downside could be funny

vagrant grotto
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I’ll be real I’ve been trying to keep Dazed and Overheated out of my NPCs so they’re loosely coupled

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But this may be appropriate

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“I swore never to unsheathe this sword…” energy rn

empty arrow
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Idk how you’d ever invoke overheated in another context but dazed has loads of applications as being less brutal than stun

vagrant grotto
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Overheated just boils down to “can’t use heat stuff” anyway

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You could slap it on a Pyro flamethrower

placid glacier
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Smth smth "this isn't my sword"

inland pilot
empty arrow
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Huh I’ll look can’t say I’ve combed through all the brigand stuff

vagrant grotto
inland pilot
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codifying a movement into the protocol means it gets its "standard move" still in a roundabout manner but one thats still restrained in a sense

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can't stutterstep it between actions, has to make it in one go

vagrant grotto
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Sure yeah… but now we’re hitting Weird Exception Land again

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“It’s this except it’s not for xyz reasons”

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I will stew on all this though

inland pilot
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fair enough

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its got good bones though thats for sure

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it really is just a matter of wording everything cleanly

vagrant grotto
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Thank you!

inland pilot
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but the playstyle? yeah, its already there and works beautifully

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i'd love to use one of these

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makes me want to make more npcs myself but unfortunately still juggling Price of War NPC updates and trying to finish the Apex

vagrant grotto
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And yeah. I will say I do want to avoid a 4th base feature unless it’s basic AF. May need to move the parry to an optional even

inland pilot
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i like the parry as a base kit thing but i also understand

vagrant grotto
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And yeah no I promised myself I wouldn’t make another NPC and yet here I am

inland pilot
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we have to tell lies to ourselves now and then tbh

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i told myself i wasn't gonna make more squad kits

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then i took 60 optionals to 66

vagrant grotto
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Worst part about adding another NPC is it’s gonna fuck with my layout……. 😒

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I lucked out with my Late Four in that they were alphabetically adjacent and thus didn’t fuck with the layout of the rest

placid glacier
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Squad kit?

vagrant grotto
inland pilot
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for all your "turn infantry into bigger bastards" needs

placid glacier
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Huh- Def will check that out later (my compcon will be screaming in pain but... I did want to use more infantry in Wallflower)

inland pilot
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slightly off topic but: i do like how Squad Kits really is "heres stuff to make infantry cooler, more engaging, and powerful to a degree" and all the fluff i wrote for it is "there is true tragedy in the fact that we continue to send men and women to die on foot"

inland pilot
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theres some optionals in there that work well for Wallflower Spoilers: ||the large roaming subaltern hordes, both the armed and unarmed ones||

empty arrow
inland pilot
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its definitely something i didn't want to shy away from, especially seeing - in my personal opinion - there is little difference between killing someone in a mech and killing someone outside of one: Why is the warrior on foot any different to the warrior in their angel of iron?

there is a human cost to warfare either way, and one has to remember it

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BUT i also know thats a deeper cut than some people really want in their lancer games? and i respect that. Lancer 100% gives you the tools to reconcile with that cost, but also you should 100% do what you're comfortable with first and foremost

placid glacier
empty arrow
inland pilot
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absolutely yeah

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different campaigns have different stakes for certain

granite saddle
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With how Lancers always survive their mechs getting wrecked, that's the standard I usually assume. Wether it actually applies or not though, yeah that's a Tone thing for sure.
It's just that no matter the Tone you're trying to set, there is no amount of Cope that can justify a squad not being dead when it is, so it can bring some tone-clash when you don't excpect it yeah.
I'd have more thoughts on this, but given how off-topic we already are, I'll refrain.

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More on-topic : the [placeholdername] looks really cool already.
I also thought about maybe allowing the parry to stop involuntary movement maybe (and/or, you decide), to give controllers a way to force it to drop the charge; so it has both "damage on me vs. damage on them" and "positioning vs. damage on them" as accessible trade-offs.
I'm not sure about it, but figured I'd say it anyways just in case. Might also even have an idea for an Ultra trait, but I'm gonna wait until the class is a bit more defined before thinking on it some more.

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Might wanna look at the terashima for inspiration btw, if you're not already doing that, could be interesting.

vagrant grotto
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I did think about adding a “reduce involuntary movement by 1” rider on Sheathe but yeah

granite saddle
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Like, this whole guy's deal being "fuck me up or I fuck you up" is really cool if you end up deciding to lean into it

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But the more you lean into it, the more the striker/defender ratio leans towards defender; the less, the more it leans towards striker

vagrant grotto
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Heavy Melee, +2/+4/+6
[Threat 2][5/7/9 Kinetic]
If the Kensei starts its turn with weapons sheathed, its first attack with this weapon on its turn deals double damage (ignoring bonus damage) and gains AP. Its weapons then become unsheathed.```
```Explosive Sheathe
System, Quick Action
The Kensei sheathes its weapons, assuming a defensive stance. While its weapons remain sheathed, the Kensei is SLOWED and reduces all hostile involuntary movement by 1 space. It automatically unsheathes its weapons after it uses a reaction or moves voluntarily.```
```Deft Parry
Trait, Reaction, 1/round
Trigger: The Kensei takes damage while its weapon is sheathed.
Effect: The Kensei first unsheathes its weapon and gains OVERSHIELD 5/7/9.```
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okay, revised a bit

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feedback welcomed for edge cases, I have a feeling I might've missed something somewhere

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I feel like I've missed something because hot damn this is a lot more succinct than I was expecting

ashen crown
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Any reason the resistance got replaced with Overshield?

vagrant grotto
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oh, it should say "first unsheathes its weapon and gains Overshield", it's intended to be an interrupt, I will edit that in

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so, voluntary movement and reactions break the stance, and the empowered attack has to be the first attack on its turn

vagrant grotto
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Doing another edit, adding requirement that it's gotta start turn with weapons sheathed before doing a heavy slash

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terms of base stats... this is feeling like a Size 2

granite saddle
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Does it have to be though ?

vagrant grotto
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nothing ever has to be

granite saddle
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I just don't see it fantasy-wise personally, maybe that's just me.

ashen crown
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Mechanically it makes sense but vibes wise it doesn’t exactly resonate

vagrant grotto
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I've been playing Elden Ring and Sekiro so I've been fighting a lot of big guys with swords

granite saddle
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Hell, experimental for experimental, might as well make it a "size 1 or size 2". We already have "1 or 1/2" so

granite saddle
granite saddle
ashen crown
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Agreed

vagrant grotto
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I dislike the "size list" tbh so I'd rather do one or the other

granite saddle
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Fair

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Still find that to be the best option imo, but it is your supplement, so don't let that stop you.

vagrant grotto
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I am not going to design/balance an NPC around two size categories

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esp when they're both not "variant of Size 1"

ashen crown
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Fair nuff

vagrant grotto
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WINDSTORM
Trait
After attacking with the HF KINETIC SABER using the EXPLOSIVE SLASH profile, draw a Line 5 area from the Kensei that includes the target. All characters in the area take 5 Kinetic AP and are knocked back 2 spaces.```

POSTURE BREAK
Trait
Targets hit with the HF KINETIC SABER using the EXPLOSIVE SLASH profile must make a HULL save or become DAZED (CONDITIONS & STATUSES, APPENDIX A) until the end of their next turn.```

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Optional ideas

ashen crown
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Ooh those look fun- I'm assuming Posture Break says Targets b/c some optionals may give AOE options?

vagrant grotto
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yeah it's futureproofing

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consider also: Volley Module

ashen crown
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I hadn't- good shout

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Though, since Explosive Slash only applies to the first attack made with the weapon idk if it could apply to multiple targets

vagrant grotto
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attack, not attack roll

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though I see your point

ashen crown
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Yeah I was gonna comment on how I wasn't sure how to distinguish here

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But it does follow Lancer's general principles

vagrant grotto
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Oh, forgot this:

Backup Pistol
Auxiliary CQB, +1/+2/+3
[Range 5][Threat 3][4/6/8 Kinetic]
Attacks with this weapon do not cause the Kensei to unsheathe its weapons.
mild trail
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Glock Saint Isshin

ashen crown
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I presume overwatching with the Pistol still unsheaths however, since Unsheath ends whenever an attack or reaction is made

vagrant grotto
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I'm stealth-editing some things at the moment

ashen crown
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Oh wait only voluntary movement or reactions end Unsheath

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Wait if Voluntary Movement ends unsheath what purpose does slowing the Kensei serve?

vagrant grotto
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right now Sheathe ends by default if it attacks or moves voluntarily. Deft Parry also explicitly unsheathes

vagrant grotto
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though I see your point

ashen crown
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Well if it standard moves Unsheath and thereby slow ends anyway

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It locks it into ending Unsheath via standard move rather than giving the choice to end it with any other move

vagrant grotto
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yeah, the Slowed may be superfluous

vagrant grotto
# 
HF Kinetic Saber
Heavy Melee, +2/+4/+6
Normal: [Threat 2][5/7/9 Kinetic]
Sheathed: AP, +1 Accuracy [Threat 3][10/14/18 Kinetic]
If the Kensei starts its turn with its weapon sheathed, its first attack with this weapon on its turn uses the SHEATHED profile. Otherwise, this weapon uses the NORMAL profile.

Regardless, after attacking with this weapon, it becomes unsheathed.

Explosive Sheathe
System, Quick Action
The Kensei sheathes its HF KINETIC SABER, assuming a defensive stance. While its weapon remains sheathed, its voluntary movement counts as moving in difficult terrain, and it reduces any push, pull, or knockback from hostile sources by 1 space. The Kensei may unsheathe its weapon as a free action.

Deft Parry
Trait, Overshield, Reaction, 1/round
Trigger: The Kensei takes damage while its weapon is sheathed.
Effect: The Kensei first unsheathes its weapon and gains OVERSHIELD 5/7/9.
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current iteration

ashen crown
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what does HF mean?

mild trail
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High Frequency

ashen crown
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neat

mild trail
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Blade vibrates veryveryvery fast to cut through stuff

ashen crown
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if Deft Parry is intended to be an interrupt, could be good to add "before damage is applied" to Deft Parry

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Since reactions only resolve once the trigger is fully resolved

vagrant grotto
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that's what "first" means yes

ashen crown
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Ah nevermind then

mild trail
# vagrant grotto ``` HF Kinetic Saber Heavy Melee, +2/+4/+6 Normal: [Threat 2][5/7/9 Kinetic] She...

Thought on the HF blade's wording:

The condition for SHEATHED profile is starting the turn with it sheathed (presumably to prevent just going sheathe > skirmish every turn, which is smart), but it doesn't actually need the weapon to be sheathed at the time of attack

So a Kensei could start its turn with the sword sheathed, use Deft Parry (say it moves and gets overwatched), and still be able use the SHEATHED profile. Not sure if that's intended or not.

vagrant grotto
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revising the pistol to compensate:

40mm Hand Cannon
Auxiliary CQB, Loading, +1/+2/+3
[Range 5][Threat 3][4/6/8 Kinetic]
Activating EXPLOSIVE SHEATHE reloads this weapon.
vagrant grotto
mild trail
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o7

vagrant grotto
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it shouldn't get the best of both worlds so yeah

mild trail
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had a feeling there wasn't meant to be secret tech to let the kensei double dip on its sheathe payoffs

vagrant grotto
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better?

ashen crown
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How about "At the start of the Kensei's turn when this weapon is Sheathed, it uses the Sheathed profile until unsheathed"

granite saddle
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that's a rough one to read.
Maybe something more like "If the Kesei starts its turn with its weapons sheathed, it may unsheathe it to attack with the SHEATHED profile." ?

vagrant grotto
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"Sheathed" is losing all meaning to me

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my brain is melting

mild trail
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yeah semantic satiation is hitting like a truck

vagrant grotto
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For the sake of my sanity I'm renaming "sheathed" profile to "empowered"

vagrant grotto
# granite saddle that's a rough one to read. Maybe something more like "If the Kesei starts its t...

Re: this: it depends on when the "unsheathe" is performed. Probably needs delineated as like, "a protocol" or "as part of the attack".

issue is that if it's "as part of the attack", it has the same issue as before of "lose stance, regain stance, pummel"

with a Protocol it works a little better, but there's still the issue of "now it can just fully move first before attacking" which is against the spirit of this

# 
If this weapon is sheathed when it attacks, if it had been sheathed since the start of the Kensei’s turn, it uses the EMPOWERED profile. Otherwise, this weapon uses the NORMAL profile.

Regardless, after attacking with this weapon, it becomes unsheathed.
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this reads better with EMPOWERED

ashen crown
vagrant grotto
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  1. Protocol: Unsheathe weapon to make next attack Empowered
  2. Move full speed towards target
  3. Bonk
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I can try to tie the attack directly to the protocol, and/or tax a quick action as part of it, but it doesn't feel elegant

vagrant grotto
ashen crown
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You could also bring back the "unsheath if voluntary moves" aspect

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Not saying you should but it would fix the "move before attacking" aspect

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oh wait the issue is- nevermind

vagrant grotto
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there was concern from someone in #homebrew-design that someone would just Skirmisher 2 just out of range, and that Threat 2 wouldn't be enough "objective control"

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so I allowed for "slow movement"

ashen crown
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Fair nuff

vagrant grotto
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more Kensei tech:

Palm Strike
Auxiliary Melee, +1/+2/+3
[Threat 1][3/4/5 Explosive]
On Attack: The Kensei may move up to its SPEED directly towards its target before the attack.

On Hit: The target is IMPAIRED until the end of their next turn.
ashen crown
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Hm. It's a cool optional but I feel like compared to others it probably won't stick around purely to keep it to 5 optionals

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Plus the Kensei having more weapons feels contrary to it's gimmick, with the exception of the 50mm hand cannon

static kernel
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if you want it to retain 'slow movement'' you could, idk, give it a quick action that let it move while empowered?

vagrant grotto
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Yeah….. hm

static kernel
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  • the kensei can move with its sword attack while empowered before attacking (losing immobilised first)
  • sheathe is a QA that lets the user move their speed and then become immobilised. the kensei can ignore immobilised with this movement if it's already empowered.
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this does give the kensei a double boost, idk how you feel about that

vagrant grotto
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I don't like double boost tbqh

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trying my best here to avoid "redpenning" existing mechanics

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but like, is what I presented unclear

static kernel
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it sounds like you were displeased with it? i think it's alright even if the wording is pretty clunky atm

vagrant grotto
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yeah there's definitely some clunk still, but I'm feeling it's in a better place now

static kernel
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the general intention, just to make sure i'm reading this correctly, is meant to be kind of a ronin by way of a sentinel, right?

vagrant grotto
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yeah basically

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or Ronin by way of Demolisher

muted blaze
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Also posture break is gnarly

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(Not a bad thing)

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Its also for some reason giving me vibes of those samurai dudes from hi fi rush lol

vagrant grotto
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I'd have to double check that lol

vagrant grotto
muted blaze
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Is the 40mm pistol another weapon or is it a renamed backup pistol?

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Also

vagrant grotto
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it's renamed

muted blaze
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40mm PISTOL!?!?

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😩

vagrant grotto
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yes that's what I was hoping you'd do lol

muted blaze
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Haha

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Its just making me think of the tone from titanfall because the tones gun is 40mm and thats like a mech DMR

vagrant grotto
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i looked up 40mm and found artillery pieces, and thought "yeah that feels like the correct scale"

muted blaze
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It works lol

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Especially if its loading

inland pilot
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think how 7.62mm and 5.56mm are go to for full and intermediate cartridge and then you look at pistols and you're suddenly at 9mm and 11.43mm as the standard

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they tend to be fat things

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so its not that unreasonable to have a large-bore pistol comparative to what you'd expect of a rifle equivalent

vagrant grotto
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I just knew I needed to be a smaller caliber than the Cannibal and I'd be okay lol

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just big enough to remind folks this is a mech-scale weapon haha

inland pilot
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i still wish the cannibal art had the actual 155mm instead of the super shotty

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over the shoulder recoilless or something

placid glacier
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a halo SPNKr

inland pilot
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all said and done though: HAH. you actually did give 'em a pistol

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thats great

vagrant grotto
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I wasn't going to until I realized it was actually a great idea lol

inland pilot
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yeah you made it click well with the NPC as a whole

vagrant grotto
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give it an overwatch weapon that isn't the sword yeah

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last 2 optionals are still up in the air; I deffo want the Wind slash effect, the pistol, and Posture Break feels like a slam dunk (for me)

inland pilot
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definitely feel that yeah

vagrant grotto
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It's the one time I'll break my self-imposed rule haha

inland pilot
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at the very least, those three do narrow down your choices at least

vagrant grotto
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yeah; I want something to key off of Parry, I think

inland pilot
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three optionals all hooking into Explosive Slash probably means "something that isn't keyed into Explosive Slash"

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would be a natural venture

vagrant grotto
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Palm Strike seemed like it had potential

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but idk

inland pilot
vagrant grotto
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so what I was workshopping was "deal damage to a damage source equal to overshield depleted/remaining"

inland pilot
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hmmmmnnmnm

vagrant grotto
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but it wasn't quite... meshing

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plus the wording was proving to be a nightmare

inland pilot
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i do like that effect but i'm also unsure with the HF Saber as it is

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because it feels like that defeats the point of Explosive Slash

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using Parry should not turn back into doing more damage, when what it gave up was the chance to do more damage

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y'cypher?

vagrant grotto
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yayaya

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"if the Kensei still has overshield leftover, it kicks you"

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"if you come at the king, best not miss" energy

inland pilot
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that could be interesting tbh, especially if angled as a sort of future set up for another slash or just a default skirmish

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even something as simple as knock prone complicates career ambitions

vagrant grotto
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yeah, like a "step forward" sort of thing, knock prone was on my mind yeah

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I think I'm gonna add an Ultra trait called Mortal Draw for the Empowered slash to attack in a burst 2

placid glacier
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no reference to zandatsu? shame /j

vagrant grotto
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mmmmmmmmm I'll be real it's been a minute since I've played MGR:R

vagrant grotto
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@dapper goblet I fixed the Capacitor Reciprocity typo you mentioned the other day

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released on itch now, patch 1.6.1

dapper goblet
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yippee

sudden cosmos
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Used an anchor anomaly today. I'm surprised it has the ability to get yeeted by a sunzi but not everything else around it when lodestone is up

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I figured it'd be less prone to getting teleported, but it was nice to mess with the sunzi right back for once

sudden cosmos
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I don't think my players figured out they should dive on the anchor to bully it to death or heat it up, but the one time someone tried ended poorly with them eating a rebake atlas missile because the anchor pushed it into the zone, sooooooo

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Spent most of the fight Immobilized from heavy gunner or in an enkidu's fancy threat, so it didn't quite serve its purpose, but that ended up making the team more the lethal, so bogotterShrug

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tl;dr- keeping it locked down/moving it away from the OZ meant it could just keep all its artillery buddies inside lodestone safe and have them plink away

vagrant grotto
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Unrelated: I think I wanna use a Disarm optional on the Kensei? I saw someone recently have a Disarm effect akin to “treat this as if it had Thrown” but I can’t remember the source and I’m a little worried of using the mechanic as a result… but game mechanics are game mechanics end of the day

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I don’t think I’d be out of line using such a mechanic?

#

Ah yes it was Reconus’s Martialist

#

Hmm

#

Reason I feel it would fit well is that if Kensei can chuck someone’s weapon away, it leans well into the fantasy of “soft threat” and encouraging moving away from the Kensei and the objective

#

@inland pilot would you mind too terribly if I potentially adapted a similar mechanic to the Kensei, with attribution to you?

inland pilot
#

sure, go ahead

#

but yeah its the Martialist you're thinking of

# 
Chamber
Reaction, Recharge 4+
Trigger: A hostile character within RANGE 3 makes an attack with a non-integrated weapon.
Effect: The Martialist fends the weapon to a free space within RANGE 3 and line of sight as though it were a resting thrown weapon. The weapon can not be retrieved until the start of the target’s next turn, and only while they are adjacent to it.
#

its definitely interesting, in practice, now i've gotten hands on with it a bit more

#

it being a reaction especially means that while its a good tool to "disable" a weapon, the Martialist can't actually punish the character on the turn it Chambered if they decide to, say, just use their movement to go for it

#

its a big reason why the Martialist counts as Size 3 for Engagement (though i might steal Minotaur wording tbh) - you can't walk through it without significant investment, or have to awkwardly swerve wide. it gets to play goalie, essentially

#

if you have an ally around though like a Sentinel, then it suddenly gets scarier as you can overlap (which is part of the design - Martialist works well with allies, and is vulnerable without them otherwise)

#

(this is mainly me going through the interaction space and how it feels in this one instance, in case its any help in defining some similar play space for your NPC and how it could key into it)

#

one thing i could soundly say is, for this reason, disarming as an action would feel VERY different than disarming as a reaction and enforce a different style of pressure

ashen crown
#

just finished running a modified control (using Valk's rules + my own) w/ a Vet Commander Zealot, first loss of the campaign, and a few thoughts:

  1. My modifications were a bad idea, and 3 control points would've been a lot more fairly in the player's favor
  2. Even including that however, fanatical charge if allowing benefitting allies to fly is way too much freedom of movement. That, and the Veteran Feature was not well recieved when in conjunction with Martyrdom, which like... I thought it'd be interesting but turns out it was just mean.
  3. Zeal psychologically is extremely threatening- in particular, the knocback gain + immunity to forced movement. It made my player's feel like they couldn't push the objective until the zealot died, something I didn't entirely agree with but they did feel strongly on.
  4. I will separately re-emphasize that the Veteran trait for Zealot was heavily disliked.

The way I ran it I was trying to be cheeky by having Fanatical charge allow the NPCs to all benefit from Zeal out the gate and get to the objectives by the end of round 1, and that strategy was... not enjoyed. Not to say there's something wrong with that strategy, but either Fanatical Charge as is makes that too easy, or the Control sitrep as I ran it made that too impossible to overcome. Moreso the latter is true based on what my player's said, and the 3 control points are much better

#

Also, Surgekiller on the Cataphract never came up, which was a shame

#

Still the reaction to the Zealot was heavily negative- however I do plan on using 2 more untemplated Zealots soon so they should get a second experience with them

#

The zealot also had anomaly which, again, wasn't really relevant

ashen crown
#

There were absolutely parts of this where I messed up as a GM, however I do not think the Zealot is without flaws here

#

It felt like a priority not purely because it was a threat, but no matter how you interacted with it it was a losing game

dapper goblet
#

Oh unrelated but I feel like the torrent needs a survivability buff. I found it just got kinda munched extremely fast. Mayyybe like 5 more hp. I might run some that way and report back

vagrant grotto
vagrant grotto
# ashen crown just finished running a modified control (using Valk's rules + my own) w/ a Vet ...

Thank you for the thorough feedback! Lemme go down the line here:

  1. What again were your modifications? 4 vs 3 control zones shouldn’t be insurmountable on its own, I would think
  2. This was in Low Gravity, treating FanCharge as a boost right?
  3. I thought I sacked immunity to forced movement? Is this using latest? That part is not present in v1.6
  4. Notes on combination of Martyrdom and Fervent Retribution. What tier was this specifically? Want to know if a flat 1 burn would be better, or if I should limit the burn to 1 turn per character or something. In addition I may dial Martyrdom’s burn back now that Zeal is bigger.
#

I do wonder how the players would fare vs a Kai Rebake Near Threat Denial Bastion in similar circumstances

vagrant grotto
#

Potential ideas for revising Fervent Retribution:

  • have attacks vs allies raise burn without causing damage
  • Change to simply be Save Vs 1/2/3 Burn at end of turn while within Zeal
#

I’m actually vibing more with that second one because it’s that kind of Soft Threat I’ve been mulling over with Kensei

#

“Continue to stand near the Zealot (which is near the objective) and suffer”

dapper goblet
vagrant grotto
dapper goblet
#

T1

#

LL4 though, so top end of it which may contribute to the issue

vagrant grotto
#

Good to know, thanks

sudden cosmos
#

It kept lodestone up for as long as possible, including a bit of a cheeky last NPC activation to first activation stabilize to maintain uptime. It kept pressure and disruption off the rainmaker as it hammered the party.

#

I could see a situation where it scoots long with melee strikers and serves a similar process. Doesn't suit multiple activations well but it works out with one and some commander reactions

#

I don't think players clocked that they could hit it through lodestone apart from the incidental sunzi-yeeting

#

Could be my description of how it seemed to work though

#

They didn't scan so bogotterShrug

ashen crown
vagrant grotto
#

Thinking more about Kensei, and about tweaking the flavor from a "gunpowder sheathe" to a "coilgun sheathe"

#

And about an optional that lets it move past a bunch of enemies, deal damage to them, and then sheathe

ashen crown
#

As an additional note that I was mulling over whether it'd be worth including about the Modified Control (I don't agree with it but one of my players thought it): The urgency of the ticking clock + how quick it would be to get to the end of combat was not liked, since it made combat shorter and my players love the combat. Nevermind how by the time combat ended we had already gone slightly overtime

#

It made combat feel like something to be "rushed past" rather than something to be engaged with

#

I don't personally agree with it but the player's input matters when it comes to this kind of stuff

vagrant grotto
ashen crown
#

And it was likely more due to my modification of making 4 control points instead of 3

vagrant grotto
#

I'd suggest "make the clock bigger" but it sounds like your combat was long enough as is

#

so this sounds like a psychological pressure thing

ashen crown
#

Additionally, the outweighted action economy of Players vs NPCs made it, to them, feel impossible to outpace how fast they were gaining points, and using a quick action to gain points was severely unappealing as a consequence

ashen crown
vagrant grotto
ashen crown
#

Absolutely, but the NPCs can always try again if they fail, and unlike the players they have many more opportunities to do so

vagrant grotto
#

so like, NPCs could only score a max of 4 points

#

and stuff like Impairing the NPCs or forcing them away from the zones wasn't working enough?

ashen crown
#

If I can be honest despite their negative feedback they appeared to be playing a lot worse than they normally do

#

They did 0 forced movement, didn't use their cores, and focused way too much on the Zealot

vagrant grotto
#

duly noted

#

I'll take it all with a pound of salt

ashen crown
#

And we had a ZHeng, Kidd, Swallowtail, and Pegasus

ashen crown
vagrant grotto
#

one negative aspect of a fight can sour the whole thing, I'm well aware from my PF2e play

ashen crown
#

They just kinda got really psyched out, opting for a retreat pretty quickly

#

I as a GM had no trouble gaining points, only encountering some trouble with a few contested checks which I could force past with more actions, and with a Kai Elite Cataphract I could move people off points and take them with ease. among other things

#

Which I suppose could be something?

vagrant grotto
#

Yeah no Zealot seemed oppressive here

ashen crown
#

They had no problem on literally any of the other NPCs apart from the Zealot is the thing, and I asked them explicitly. Even the Barricade harassing the Zheng felt fine to the Zheng player

#

So that's definitely a sign

#

And the Zealot died first (not quickly mind you just first)

vagrant grotto
#

yeah... as an Ultra it should definitely Cause Problems but I'm not as enthused about the catch-22

#

you were using an older version, right? so "Gain Overshield on Zeal" wasn't included in this test?

ashen crown
#

No I was using hte most recent version (sofar as I knew)

#

It was gaining overshield on zeal

#

I was most likely just thinking of the older text when it came to the forced movement

#

Yeah I was just imagining forced movement immunity

#

But yeah definitely gaining Overshield upon using Zeal

vagrant grotto
ashen crown
#

It felt fine to me, but to be fair I forgot to add it up come the second turn- it's really easy for me to forget Zeal is a protocol rather than just an always active passive

#

The Zealot still died fairly fast but with the Overshield it's at least not a piece of wet tissue

#

To me it was warranted

vagrant grotto
#

okay, that's good then. so it sounds like they just grit their teeth through Martyrdom

ashen crown
#

Martyrdom + Fervent Retribution specifically

#

The latter moreso

vagrant grotto
#

yeah it sounds like they focused down the Zealot to stop Retribution

ashen crown
#

I think Martyrdom they didn't have too big an issue with

vagrant grotto
#

they were okay with taking 2 burn every structure damage dealt to the Zealot?

ashen crown
#

It felt more in their control, and to be honest at least with that there's a much lower cap on how much of that you can take

#

Meanwhile with Retribution you could theoretically take way more burn

vagrant grotto
#

got it. I think I'm gonna tweak/replace Retribution to just be a "burn area" to encourage folks to GTFO of Zeal instead of a pseudo-defender trait

# 
FIRE AND BRIMSTONE (Veteran)
Trait
Hostile characters that end their turn within ZEAL’s area must make a SYSTEMS save or take 2/3/4 Burn (after making any ENGINEERING checks for BURN).
ashen crown
#

Hm, idk about forcing another save for it considering how big the AOE is. Would you be against "If they have burn at the end of their turn, it increases by 2/3/4"? Narrow in on the Zealot's theme

vagrant grotto
#

honestly that was also on my mind

ashen crown
#

Oh I was worried for a sec lol

vagrant grotto
#

like as an intensifier instead

ashen crown
#

I was just thinking about it from a "how much more bookkeeping would this reqiure" perspective, plus the Zealot's big deal with Zeal is about making having burn while near it bad

#

So a Burn Intensifier feels more in character so to speak

granite saddle
#

On one side yeah, on another it also inventivises "shitton of burn" OpFors as a consequence, if you really want to take advantage of it (more than the base kit).
Maybe that's not so bad, it's probably just that I've had a very bad experience with one of those before.

#

As long as that's not an actual concern, the burn amplifier does sound pretty interesting yeah ! Just need to make sure it's clear enough what that means.

ashen crown
#

Veteran Traits don't always need to be super relevant is the thing, and those kinds of OpFors are already incentivized with base Zealot

vagrant grotto
#

maybe I'll make it a flat 2 burn intensifier instead of scaling then

ashen crown
#

Makes sense

granite saddle
#

But yeah like I said I may just be biased so pay me no mind

#

"Burn amplifier" really does feel like a cool concept at least

ashen crown
#

I will say gambling on targets failing their Burn check is uh... not the most reliable gameplan, without Impair at least

#

Which isn't a bad thing, it's just worth noting

vagrant grotto
#

I want to try Fire and Brimstone as an intensifier, as I have decided I don't like Fervent Retribution

#

if it sucks, I'll replace it with something else

ashen crown
#

I used to like it, but this combat changed my mind

vagrant grotto
#

I have never used it and have decided I would never want to

sudden cosmos
#

Looking to wheel out a support oriented elite capacitor to do funny things with grunts next combat.

vagrant grotto
#

looking forward to hearing the results!

sudden cosmos
#

Maybe they won't be grunts though. Unsure.

#

But the capacitor is definitely in the opfor

#

The ultimate comedy would be giving the capacitor soul split and use it on a rebake lurker with with umbral clone

#

Build your own grunt deployment

muted blaze
# ashen crown If I can be honest despite their negative feedback they appeared to be playing a...

So i won't be surprised, if. I tend to find combat and sitreps are a balance. Regular sitreps work best if the opfor is oppressive and/or does their job. The basic sitreps means players need to think about it, unless the players can just wipe the board. If the players can wipe thr board then its better to do that. I think that making taxes and costs to sitreps using these rules makes it so sitreps dont need to be carried by a hard opfor. They can't be brushed to the side and NEED to be dealt with which allows regular NPCs to do stuff to prevent it as players need to be more active and can't just spend active time killing everything. From the sounds of it, you increased sitrep difficulty and opfor difficulty which tipped and seemed like too much for the players.

Also wanna state, this is totally speculative. I have no clue if this is the case or not and I also wanna state this isn't me saying you've done something wrong

ashen crown
#

This is my first time using these types of sitreps so I thought I could just sorta translate it wholesale and was very wrong

#

When it comes to the Zone Based sitreps all actions made towards claiming them, at the end of the day, are directed towards the enemy. Here you need to take additional actions directed towards the actual objectives.

#

WHich is something I didn't expect tbh, I expected the action dedication from the NPCs to cause the sitrep to generally have the same difficulty level as normal sitreps

placid glacier
#

just to double check- is opportunistic salvage supposed to proc on mines?

vagrant grotto
#

Mines are not deployables but their own thing

#

Compcon labels them like that for convenience

placid glacier
#

Thought so but also wanted to check

dapper goblet
#

Demonic idea: field one non-anomaly elite rainmaker or whatever, then 5 anomalies (making a normal opfor) with doppelganger

#

So your players

  1. think you've lost your fucking mind
  2. are very confused about target priority
placid glacier
#

For my players at least it would be a hornet

muted blaze
#

12 Elite hornets

vagrant grotto
ashen crown
dapper goblet
#

GOOD point

static kernel
#

or - give the anomalies + the rainmaker spec ops so that they get one extra turn

#

and use it on a different character every time

dapper goblet
#

Give only the anomalies spec ops JUST to fuck with em

#

(Or just em coordinated carnage)

dapper goblet
vagrant grotto
#

Pegasus player: "I ping them for 1 with omnigun"
GM: "okay great, anything else?"
Peg: "Aren't they dead?"
GM: "Not yet"
Peg: "but they're grunts!"
GM: "Are you sure about that?"

dapper goblet
#

Make players scan: the sitrep

empty arrow
#

10 actual grunts and one secret veteran enemy

#

[wallflower]||abyssal: the sitrep||

granite saddle
#

10 grunt scouts and 1 anomaly ultra CRB Ronin

#

A very big dagger under that cloak

muted blaze
dapper goblet
#

Yep, the whole concept here is to say, and make the players say, incomprehensible sentences

#

"The hornet is going to grapple you, its larger so it will drag you off"

muted blaze
#

I think its worse if you say the hornet has heavy frame and is immune

#

Hmmm

#

Or 5 fucking ultras

dapper goblet
#

I'm trying to decide if its funnier all mimicking a grunt or all mimicking ultras

#

and I genuintely cant figure out which is better. I think grunt is going to have smoother execution because the extra turns wont be on the initiative list.

muted blaze
#

"Why's that grunt got 3 activations?"

"Dw about it"

ashen crown
#

I think at one point I suggested a reading of Doppelganger as "If you doppelganger a doppelganger you reflect it's true form rather than what it's pretending to be" so you can have players go "wait then where the fuck is the real ronin?" so now I'm imagining a sitrep with """4 Veteran Operator""" and some grunts, but no one can find the actual Veteran Operator

#

I do find it funny how folk's fantasies for the Anomaly template have mainly been "Doppelganger- The Template" as of late

#

Because the template quite literally cannot do anything else for an NPC if it takes Doppelganger- it replaces the one base trait the template has while also taking up the optional budget

dapper goblet
#

I think its literally just a demon i released

ashen crown
#

Don't worry the demon was sealed earlier so this isn't unprecedented, you more just re-released it

muted blaze
#

So if an NPC had a hard limit on 1 optional, if it was anomaly it can still take another optional whereas a spacer for example it says "may choose these optionals instead"

#

also doppelganger allows changing of expectations and can probably score as well as another optional by allowing a gotcha moment to happen

ashen crown
muted blaze
#

Fair

#

Anomalies are wild anyway

ashen crown
#

Like "yeah each anomaly can do one special thing- let's let all of them do the exact same gimmick and confuse the fuck out of the players"

muted blaze
#

Like, pretending to be someone else is not as potent as becoming a decaying star

ashen crown
#

It can be if you play your cards right

muted blaze
#

But it doesn't matter, it's a wildcard template

#

YOU FOOL! YOU THOUGHT I WAS A DECAYING STAR! BUT I ACTUALLY WAS A GGRUNT HORNET!

ashen crown
#

A Grunt Hornet Anomaly copying another Grunt Hornet Anomaly with the only difference being one of them has Heliocide instead of Doppelganger

#

... actually that sounds fire hol up

#

The world's silliest game of russian roulette- 5 Anomaly Hornets but only one of them actually has Heliocide + is a Grunt, the rest are just Doppelgangering that one

#

The issue would be telegraphing to your players that one of them has Heliocide but you could always go above table and decalre it, or have a previous sitrep preview a Grunt Hornet with Heliocide to make them scared when you suddenly deploy 5 of them

#

Ya know out of curiosity, do y'all ever worry about whether it's narratively appropriate to deploy an Anomaly or not, or do you just think "that optional's funny, throw it into the sitrep"?

#

Because there's so many good ones I don't know how you could ever touch all of them in one lifetime

dapper goblet
#

honestly as GM you can staple whatever you want on any NPC and nobody can stop you

#

I read the "choose 1" as a very, very soft guideline

ashen crown
#

tru but I like adhering to some semblance of rules as a GM

dapper goblet
#

That's fair, but even the core book encourages you to crossclass, and way, way lowaballs encounter budgeting

vagrant grotto
#

@ashen crown @muted blaze @granite saddle and anyone else in here: interested in a playtest on <t:1750528839:F>?

muted blaze
#

Sounds good

#

FEEEEEDBACK... Just finished a combat... Anomaly's are very interesting, players liked them. Worst part was their name Not appearing in foundry due to them being secrets. This is not an anomaly issue and a foundry issue of how to hide it.

None of the abilities actually came up in play. The hades 1 ability sounded cool but never happened. Momento Capula was probably very mean to put into an elite spite... whoopsie good thing that didn't happen. Hunger made a player scared of the name but it missed. In concept they liked the sound of it

#

Vulture happened for like 2 rounds. Players liked the sound of it

#

Condition clear scared them and felt a tad BS. until I told them multiple NPCs can do it so honestly skill issue

vagrant grotto
dapper goblet
#

Momento culpa is, weirdly, a really good counter to stupid mobility stuff

#

So I appreciated that when I used it (ok maybe not that weirdly)

ashen crown
muted blaze
#

Ive reached the point of summer where quite the opposite

ashen crown
#

Good luck and have fun to the rest of y'all tho!

muted blaze
#

Until free time goes because my free time is free so I filled my free with not

muted blaze
vagrant grotto
muted blaze
#

guh

empty arrow
placid glacier
#

oh foundry?

granite saddle
granite saddle
#

Assuming it happens at all with your power problems and all that, ofc.

vagrant grotto
muted blaze
#

Terminally unemployed

sudden cosmos
muted blaze
#

If power issues resolve and player count is still low I can see if I have a friend who'd be willing to join

sudden cosmos
#

Trying to organize an evening activity with someone

vagrant grotto
#

It’ll only be 1 fight for sure

sudden cosmos
#

So ~3 hours or so?

vagrant grotto
#

Prepare for 4 imo

#

@granite saddle when you say push 1-2 hours do you mean earlier or later

vagrant grotto
sudden cosmos
#

What LL

vagrant grotto
#

6

sudden cosmos
#

(or is that- eyesShake)

vagrant grotto
#

Basically the second sitrep I planned for this

muted blaze
#

This is important because my friend will not join if it's spoilers because she's a player in my game lmao

sudden cosmos
#

Part of me wants to give my calendula a second chance given how poorly she rolled the last time I used her on a playtest, but I don't get many opportunities to play at LL6, so thonkspin

muted blaze
#

I'm giving heatgunner Gilgamesh a shot

#

I wanna see how potent 1 stress for all is

sudden cosmos
#

I'm thinking lycan

vagrant grotto
#

@empty arrow @sudden cosmos @muted blaze okay there’s currently no estimate as to when I get power back. We’ll take a rain check on this

#

Apologies

sudden cosmos
#

Hopefully you won't be out for 24 hours dogepray

#

Far less than that

vagrant grotto
#

I won’t be out 24 hours

I’ll be out for at least 48 lol

#

But yeah, back to work for me, I just wanted to let you all know NOW before plans were solidified

sudden cosmos
#

Oh jeez. I haven't had a power outage that long since the 90s.

muted blaze
#

Damn...

granite saddle
#

Shit sucks, hope you get your power back soon

vagrant grotto
#

Power came back 🥳
Still gonna take a rain check on that game for now though

muted blaze
#

Queeeeestion on 1 stress for all

#

If it is possible to clear exposed without clearing heat (Gilgamesh core power)

#

Do you stay at that amount of heat and just take heat as energy at 1 heat : 1 energy

placid glacier
#

... man it feels wrong just tossing a knight in as a supportive unit and not building around it but

#

like it feels like it won't work but I guess I'll have to run it to see

vagrant grotto
muted blaze
#

Yeah, ofc... I meant because its possible to clear exposed and not your heat

#

Now come think of it, with stuff like autocooler you can do the same thing

#

Just with having no heat but having exposed

vagrant grotto
#

Oh I misread, I’m sorry

vagrant grotto
ashen crown
#

I assume you wouldn't change Gilgamesh core power to clear Overheated, thereby making Stabilizing to clear all that nonsense still required if you wanna use Self-Heat stuff

vagrant grotto
#

The intent is for Overheated to apply whenever you’re going over your heatcap so yeah

#

It’s an anti heatcap abuse thing

twin escarp
#

I draw silly little sprites for all my enemy designs instead of using the retrograde mini ones. Here's my vulture and occultist I'm fielding together (the vultures are grunts with trash to treasure and oppsalv while the occultists are -engineering brigands with lead astray call from below and jailbreak)

image.png image.png
vagrant grotto
#

hell yeah

twin escarp
#

I believe you were there when I was talking about how I was doing a sicknasty 3 way fight with two opposing opforces, with one coming in halfway through

vagrant grotto
#

yeah! this'll be interesting to see then

twin escarp
#

so when I saw t2t I was like oh i need to put these vultures in here to just swoop through the carnage picking up random bullshit

vagrant grotto
#

I have yet to see OppSal Vulture + Occultist cooperating, I think it'll be "fine" but please report back any findings

twin escarp
#

I have a pegasus and an enkidu so I'm prepared to go ham on grunts

#

tbh i think the real combo here isn't even opsalv it's refresh limited systems on call from below -> summon a moloch drone using the vulture that just fed me it's wing

twin escarp
#

The full unabridged, incredibly overcomplicated opforce (which lacks total numbers because I plan on just reinforcing the whole extraction mission) I'm looking at is
Enemy force 1:
Squad
Hornet Vehicle (transport)
Barricade Industrial (clamps, extrudite)
Engineer Industrial (rivet cannon, sheperd field)
Archer ship (impending threat)
x1 Support Veteran (+systems, Empowered Cloud, Defensive Pulse, Limitless, Self-Repair) [Named character, defects to the party after the 2nd army shows up, with a replacement mech if the party blew her up]

Enemy force 2:
Sentinel Brigand (-systems, Boarding Leash)
Occultist Brigand (-engineering, lead astray, call from below, jailbreak)
Ace Grunt (rapid response, missile swarm)
Vulture Grunt (oppsalv, t2t)
Sniper Vehicle Mercenary (flier, favors owed) damage type swapped to energy to represent the sniper merely being the spotter for an orbital cannon
x1 Inactive Priest elite commander (sanctuary, fortress, quick march) [enemy objective, only becomes active if left uncontested beside the main objective, who climbs in. basically a "you fucked up" extra boss]

#

The main win conditions for getting the objective away from the players here are the sentinel's boarding leash and the moloch drone, but side 1 can do it with the two industrial machines via rivet gun knockback or clamp grappling

#

this is an incredibly complex and loaded set of enemies given the total of 12 fucking enemy classes the vast majority of which have multiple optionals and I am taking physical notes to avoid forgetting anything

granite saddle
#

Any news on the [Jetstream Sam but mecha] ? I'm kinda out of things to rotate in my mind rn, so y'know, if that can help I'm down.
(I'm also just hyped about it in general.)

vagrant grotto
granite saddle
#

Alright, gl then, and take care !

muted blaze
#

Anomaly, Soul split

#

Gives grunt template and sets structure/stress/HP to 1

#

It does not say it overwrites templates. Does this means veteran grunts/Elite grunts/Ultra grunts are legal?

ashen crown
#

Considering how the specific of “These templates cannot overlap” exists and Soul Split has no specific statement saying it supersedes this, it likely removes incompatible templates

muted blaze
#

True, but nothing in CRB lancer gives templates to things mid fight so there's no official ruling. Anything that does so from 3rd party states the interaction. Such as Puppeteer states it overwrites all templates and the Nergal class NPC says only overwrites templates that stop grunt... So it could be interpreted as "oops there's a veteran grunt now" is a valid take IMO despite the fact the template says it's impossible

#

Considering it states it sets structure and stress to 1 rather than overwriting traits that grant additional structure/stress

#

Another valid interpretation is "it can't be used on something to soul split if they're a vet, etc" in a similar way say barrel roll can't be used when slowed

ashen crown
#

It definitely sounds unintentional so it might be legal now but it’s a grey space that probably needs to be clarified

muted blaze
#

Yep

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The important part to me is, I changed a fight

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Oops all veterans

#

So if an anomaly dupes a vet, can they still overcharge with limitless for example

vagrant grotto
#

It might need turns per round reduced to 1 as well

south cypress
#

Have people run Scapegoat Occultist with allied Operator Grunts before? If so, did it work very well?

south cypress
#

Can an Occultist use Scapegoat to redirect an attack to a target that would be invalid for the attack due to Lodestone?

#

Like, which effect "wins" in that scenario?

vagrant grotto
south cypress
#

Does that make the Scapegpat attempt fail or does it force the attacker to waste their attack?

vagrant grotto
south cypress
#

Alright, that's what I thought, but I wanted to make sure

ashen crown
#

So I re-used the Zealot, this time without templates, and it was way better recieved. Being overtuned felt fine so long as it could die easily, that way you don't need to put all your resources into killing one enemy

#

It's benefits were still potent, but without the old Veteran ability, no more flying with Fanatical Charge (which was a considered change but with old rules was possible in Low Grav environments due to boosting), it felt more fair

#

To paraphrase my players, having a guy with strong buffs but who frontlines and is really weak makes them a good NPC because killing them decreases force multiplication even if it doesn't actually damage the damage dealers

#

It really distracted them from the objective too

#

Based on this, I will say I've noticed the Zealot has experienced changes to be more tanky from much earlier versions, and with this new knowledge I think those probably were not for the best. Making it squishier so that they're easier to deploy as sort of "pseudo-grunts" and allow templating them to not be overwhelming seems like a much better call

#

Also used the Holdout rules but slightly modified (where it's one size 2 objective that is contested if an enemy is adjacent to you, and you can ring it as many times as you want)- my players enjoyed having the ability to Overcharge and ring it twice and it made the combats possible. It was a lot more fun since they could actually funnel and sacrifice resources into the objective to claim it rather than just doing it once and having little recourse to being able to do so again.

As a more wider implication note, the overwhelming amount of enemy actions has made me realize that the Valk active action sitreps do require different design compared to CRB (and Finaljas) sitreps. These ones cannot be overbudgeted- if you're running for 4 players, run the 4 player sitrep, hell consider running the 3 player sitrep. Out action-ing the players puts them at such a severe disadvantage that it should not be done- 1.5x activations goes from the minimum to the maximum with these types of sitreps

#

I had reinforcements I intended to play equal in amount to the initially deployed forces, and yet I could only deploy 2 of them without ovewhelming the players (but promising mounting pressure since the combat had no round limit) so it was really bad

#

As for Brigands, finally got to use (most) all parts of the kit (reverse Veterancy didn't come up) I gave the NPCs. Dirty Fighting was interesting and not too much of a hassle, but it did make my players kinda scowl, mostly because I was rolling hot and they weren't.

I did love using Grav Amp once though, the prone allowed multiple of my NPCs (including the ace that used it) take advantage of the prone and lay down some serious hurt

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Also Blazing Fervor was fun. Not overwhelming but not easy to discount either. Just fun. Though it did make me completely forget about Zeal's AP and Knockback.

vagrant grotto
ashen crown
#

Orator-Spotter Swallowtail, NucCav Pegasus, Brawler Zheng, and Drone Commander Kidd

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They aren't pushovers, and they've played smart a lot, but the Pegasus dropped the CRP recently and the accuracy loss + damage drop off is kinda hurting them as of late

#

They learned from last combat and pushed for the objective best they could but the SPite and Lobber hogging it were causing issues

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The fact they did well here and not on the Control is imo due to the fact the only ticking clock were the trickle of reinforcements and the fact that they could funnel their efforts into one place rather than needing to split up to 4 locations

vagrant grotto
ashen crown
#

No problem! No chance to test the napalm unfortunately, cause I never really lost access to actions, but it worked out. Zealot felt way fairer to use when it was much more frail, so maybe that’s something to take note of?

vagrant grotto
#

Yeah noted on that

#

Really surprised about the objective actions thing but I suppose I shouldn’t be

ashen crown
#

Not as a term of feedback but a realization this developed when it comes to encounter design- for sitreps where I look at them and think “well the players can just rush in and finish the Sitrep in 2 rounds easily” is that, yes, they can… but it’s surprisingly easy to get blown to smithereens in the process. Our Pegasus could barely approach and the Swallowtail and Zheng camping the objective were getting blown to smithereens, while the Swallowtail and Kidd needed to overcharge to double tap the objective and avoid getting overwhelmed by finishing the combat as soon as possible

#

When it comes to these more actionable sitreps, I’ve kinda been overestimating my players, and having more appreciation for the zone based sitreps on how- yes, they are less actionable, but the pressure they put on the players is light enough that balancing contesting the objective and actually fighting enemies is balanced more easily

#

From a “engaging with the game perspective”, it encourages more actual fighting, which is what most of the player tools supplied in Lancer support

#

Just a design consideration I kinda overlooked- rushing the objective sometimes gets you (the individual) killed

#

But my players had fun with it so for Gauntlet style sitreps I’d use this format again

#

Makes more sense diagetically too- something about rushing and sieging but then just sitting on a point for several rounds never sat quite right with me

vagrant grotto
ashen crown
#

It moreso just means I shouldn’t consider a Sitrep easier because you can rush the objective

#

Which I have been doing so far (albeit not fully consciously but it’s still a bit embarrassing)

vagrant grotto
#

Can’t just bum rush the objective and leave all the threats in the table and expect no punishment

#

Esp when obj requires action dedication that otherwise goes towards neutralizing threats

#

And you’re good

ashen crown
#

With this lesson learned I’ll probably try and drop another one of these styles of Sitrep into another mission.

#

I will say one benefit of the “one big objective” is that by condensing the area in which the objective is contested, it actually kinda punishes sitting on the objective more harshly while making it easier to walk away, making it so the battlefield isn’t so condensed to a “kill zone” so to speak

#

The Zheng and Swallowtail camping the objective got hit by Ace Missile Launcher after Assault Rotary Grenade after Lobber Mining Charge, and after a point the Zheng found it more advantageous to engage a Cataphract threatening to move the swallowtail off the point rather than camp the objective, leaving room for the Kidd to rush in and grab 2 points

#

Had the objectives been more spread out this would’ve been less of a threat

#

I guess I phrased it wrong actually

vagrant grotto
ashen crown
#

As a small note, it did get to make fun use of the “Burn disables invis” part of Zeal on the swallowtail, which was nice and made it a high priority target when that happened

vagrant grotto
#

I’m fine if it feels like an operator-ish that can survive 1 decent hit and then crumple on the second; that’s the biggest goal of the Overshield on it

#

Glad the disable invis felt good

#

How did the size of the aura feel this time around?

ashen crown
#

There were no comments from the players on it, and now that it was a less buffed up Zealot it felt more fair to have that kind of access

#

It still needed to rush to where it’s allies were but allies were typically hanging around the fringes, + never really reaching the same amount of Allies caught in the zeal it had at the start of the Sitrep

empty arrow
#

Ran some vultures in yesterdays encounter, generally unimpressed with my takeaways:

The Vulture’s stats push it to try and play like a capacitor, with it being surprisingly frail, even while refreshing overshield on itself. In order to actually leverage that however, its weapon and reliance on wrecks push it to the frontline where it just pops like a piñata. The weapon is fine, the mode for limited charges is a kind of unnecessary loop for it to maintain when it doesn’t actually have the staying power to attack more than twice (even when it’s eating a wreck every round!)

In my combat in particular, my vultures spent the first 2 rounds eating some nearby wrecks, giving out a bit of overshield to the backline. Then after that, they just ran it down and got themselves killed as a mediocre frontline unit. What else can they do when they run out of pre-placed wrecks? At closer range to a potentially soon-to-be wreck, players can always shoot the vulture first before turning its ally into a wreck. Or they can not bother, because the payoff is less impressive than a capacitor or an occultist, which both have real floors outside of their plan A.

The most compelling piece of the Vulture is the fact that it can cheat recharge costs, which is a unique and potentially very strong synergy. Your mileage for that will vary, but in my case I find that recharge usually finds itself attached to actions that can feel frustrating for the players to see used repeatedly, and letting the dice decide whether that’s possible takes away the potential for it to feel like the gm is “abusing” any particular ability. Crafting a sitrep such that a bunch of wrecks and a whole Vulture do a bunch of fiddly rules text to effectively turn off one powerful ability’s recharge strikes me as convoluted and uninteresting, but that’s more subjective than my takes on its frailty and range bands.

#

Want to note also in that that occultists are really really cool. They give out overshield in a more interesting way than the vulture, they control space in a more interesting way than the cone of flash grenade, they juggle mid-range without being a beefed up tank. Very impressed with them both in the playtest I attended and a half-combat I ran that ended up not getting finished for some narrative reasons.

static kernel
#

oh yeah, returning with my findings on a Napalm and Capacitor.

Gauntlet mission, LL4, both of them had their Drone optionals. Capacitor was a Veteran with its Vet trait.

Generally impressed with the Capacitor -- the damage output wasn't great but it squeezed an extra turn of life out of several of its units. The Napalm was a bit underwhelming -- it missed every shot except its last one.

The Napalm's drone seems kind of overtuned -- blocking LOS is generally a lot more powerful than inflicting some AOE burn (depending on the party comp i suppose) so i felt no particular desire to actually blow it up. The capacitor's drone was more reasonable -- bit boring, but it acted as a force multiplier, which seems in line with the Capacitor's general role as a unit.

empty arrow
#

Also, totally forgot to talk about it when it happened, but I also ran a couple capacitors two weeks ago. Don’t have a lot of notes about them other than that they filled their role well! They were a high priority support target that added a lot of durability to nearby allies but were themselves vulnerable.

Most of the optionals were fun, but I found the second systems that gave a chunk of overshield with a bonus effect to overlap pretty significantly with the base one. I ran both and felt pretty quickly that trying to track them as different effects was not ideal, and looking at them both I don’t see why it needs both. I could believe that it’s based off the emperor license getting two beefy overshield systems, but in this case I’d rather npcs have more simplified options compared to a player license. Of the two, the base one that forced a save for shredded when a player did damage felt like the weaker link, lotta edge cases that feel unintended with how loose the wording is, and it’s so much easier to forget than free boosts.

In its place, would love to see it gain access to some light controlling effect for an optional, either to play (some) keep away or to have a way to set up for its own Line attacks.

#

And there was also a hatchet in that combat, not that I have much to say about it. For all its mobility and potential to kite players, the players in this case were a 7 speed Nelson and Lycan. Used a lot of abilities to have the veteran hatchet move around but nowhere was actually safe, and the Nelson wasn’t about to fail an agility save for the veteran trait. Didn’t really see its ceiling in action, which was fine but also didn’t really provide anything to give feedback for.

static kernel
#

but yeah, general impression on the napalm is that inherent difficulty and ordnance and SHeavy and self-heat might be a bit excessive for what it is. i realise it's in line with the bombard cannon, but it's shorter range and it seems less prone to explosive damage bursts without Cluster Munitions so it might be safer to tune up a tiny bit

vagrant grotto
vagrant grotto
static kernel
#

the Napalm arcing was interesting, and I do acknowledge that part of the balance there is probably that it's easier to find an angle without cover to hit enemies from

#

with the Capacitor, after the second or so turn that enemies were in range i was basically running it primarily as support artillery and prioritising distributing overshield more than hitting enemies, so it ended up being less impactful overall

#

This was also a combat where i deliberately jammed up the board with size 2 Defender rebake grunts, so there were a few turns where the PCs were fairly boxed in and opened to fire

vagrant grotto
#

I'll be real though, I'd like it if more folks didn't preplace wrecks when running Vultures because that obscures what it can do on its own

vagrant grotto
#

noted on drones in both cases

static kernel
#

oh, on this map it definitely needed it, but i built the encounter around PCs advancing under arcing fire

empty arrow
static kernel
# vagrant grotto noted on drones in both cases

i deployed them alongside the rebake Hive optional that lets it hijack drones since i thought it would be funny; that trait ended up being less impactful than i thought it would be, but that's obviously not PPG feedback

vagrant grotto
#

I could bump it to 13/16/19 HP and it would be as bulky as a Support (the class)

static kernel
# vagrant grotto noted on drones in both cases

one thing i will say about the firefly drones is that i explicitly told my players that there's no splash damage if it's destroyed with non-burn damage, but they still ignored it, so this may well be a case of poor player prioritisation tbh

empty arrow
vagrant grotto
#

welp, rip then

#

feedback noted

empty arrow
#

I can respect it being a midground between a capacitor and an occultist, but I don’t think I would be quite this harsh about the vulture if I didn’t think you already did a great job with those two individually

#

While I’m at it for full context, may or may not be helpful:

Gauntlet, 2x each npc plus 1x each in reinforcements
LL4 Players - Nelson, Lycan, Tech MC, Iskander, Artillery Tokugawa
Opfor (rebake) - Specter, Demolisher, Seeder, T2 Vulture, T2 Veteran Rainmaker

empty arrow
#

#1334655875679260692 message ok yeah outside of the rebake thread and despite all the criticism I just posted, yes. These are absolutely good enough to be worth money once you feel ready to do so. Godspeed o7

vagrant grotto
#

issue for charging for it is I gotta check my licensing on the PPG github repo, because I'd likely have to go private

The deployment/packaging code is GPL v3 but the LCP data itself is all rights reserved, at least

#

anyway, added 16 new rows to the bug tracker, thanks for the feedback everyone. Not all of it was "stuff to change" and in fact a good chunk was "hey this worked well" but yeah a lot to chew on

#

btw weekly stats for PPG, in case folks were interested. June views+DLs bumped because that's when I asked Beef to add it to the CompCon listings, pretty huge bump

image.png
granite saddle
#

Wait 'til I get paid, and you'll see a nice 1-point bump on that Payment stat.
Assuming tomorrow goes well, I'll have a summer job, which means I get to finally pay for the thing with my fucking name on it. About time honestly.

#

I was always gonna pay for it eventually of course, but yeah

vagrant grotto
#

yeah no worries either way lol

granite saddle
#

You cannot stop me from throwing money at you

#

I just need to acquire such moneys first

dusk zodiac
vagrant grotto
muted blaze
#

Hey @vagrant grotto, let's say hypothetically for the lancer jam i wanted to use some PPG npc stuff how for/against that would you be?

vagrant grotto
# muted blaze Hey <@151414024003649537>, let's say hypothetically for the lancer jam i wanted ...

I’m fine with folks just referencing PPG’s materials (especially as like an “optional enemies” sidebar) as long as you credit+link my project, but keep in mind:

  1. I may change things without warning in the future, like adding/changing/removing features
  2. I may choose to start charging money for PPG, meaning it could be less accessible for folks in the future

If you’re willing to accept those risks then sure go for it. I just want to make it clear that I do not guarantee that what currently exists in PPG will be perfectly consistent a year down the line

#

This especially goes for all the Template features

#

Triply so for Anomaly

muted blaze
#

Cool, if there's a chance money may be charged then I'm gonna pass. I was considering brigands because pirates cool

vagrant grotto
#

I get it yeah, in all cases

muted blaze
#

(Not disrespect to asking for money for your efforts. I just dont want to charge more money for a supplement to a 1 or 2 session mission lmao)

vagrant grotto
#

Absolutely understood

muted blaze
#

Wait, Napalm's don't have insulated

#

IDK why I'm surprised. I expected them to but it makes sense why they don't have it

muted blaze
#

Wait... Zealot + 1 burn on hit in zeal + engineers 😩

#

Hmmmm

vagrant grotto
#

time to go bother #rules-questions

muted blaze
#

LMAO

#

Deployed turrets are characters, and zeal works on characters within range

#

So I'd say so

vagrant grotto
#

Went through the PDFs to see if I added a foreign concept of Weapon Attack to the game; largely, yes, except for one instance of Empakaai

muted blaze
#

Ah it states it's specifically a weapon attack

#

Ah so ram's and grapples don't trigger it, ofc

vagrant grotto
#

and tech attacks

#

I honestly sneak in several concepts into PPG that don't technically exist in the main game but hopefully are intuitive enough

#

Example: The X/scene tag

muted blaze
#

Mayeb I need to stop reading your book and finding things that it breaks

vagrant grotto
#

lol it's fine, I need the QA

sudden cosmos
#

The most risky stuff is probably all the pilot interaction anomaly abilities

#

Like turning a system into an NHP

twin escarp
#

Turning a system into an nhp is cool but probably not that weird to do compared to like, robbing the player of a license level or talent

vagrant grotto
#

It’s not “robbing”, it’s “borrowing, without asking, but with every intention of giving it back”

static kernel
#

oh yeah it just clicked with me how many of these have parallels with 'classic' d&d mechanics. xp drain, rust monsters breaking gear, etc.

#

broad parallels, but still

twin escarp
#

I just mean mechanically disrupting their build like that

vagrant grotto
#

Sure, I’m just putting it in perspective because some indignant players will earnestly frame stuff like that as an unforgivable transgression

vagrant grotto
ashen crown
placid glacier
#

I mean I have inflicted Awakening on a player it just hasn't come up yet

#

(the player also hasn't taken any actions to remove the awakening too anyway)

twin escarp
#

in 3 days time I'm going to inflict upon my players the grunts with rapid insertion -> occultist immediately taking a turn after it triggers combo sequence

#

go 5 overshield on the remaining 3 ace grunts who also have missile swarm which combos with the lock on application

#

next step is for them to spread the fuck out before the enkidu gets to that side of the map

#

i haven't even deployed the vulture grunts with opsalv yet

upbeat obsidian
#

What is kensei supposed to be when it comes out?

#

I heard a bit about it but I’m curious

vagrant grotto
upbeat obsidian
#

Thanks

#

Good to know

static kernel
#

how rude do you think it'd be to put Singularity Generator and rebake SCL on the same enemy?

vagrant grotto
#

It’s two showstopper abilities so I don’t know

ashen crown
#

So, unofficially speaking, I know Anomaly was designed with no inherent Bond interactions due to requiring 2 supplements to use… buuuuuut (unofficially) did you have any basic ideas for how that might work Valk?

vagrant grotto
ashen crown
vagrant grotto
#

Oh no I didn’t

#

I have barely read the bond rules beyond the stress and burdens

#

Like I know roughly how they work but they dont occupy mindspace for me and I didn’t design anything around it in PPG

#

Wanted to keep PPG as accessible as possible

dapper goblet
#

Fielded some capacitors and mesmerists in an otherwise gruntspam combat yesterday. It was interesting but I feel like that ease of access to overshield really flattened player options a bit. It sort of either wound up with

  1. they had enough damage to punch through anyway meaning it wasnt very interesting; or
  2. tech attack them, doofus

I dont think this is a huge flaw in the design however, more just sort of a weird oddity. Turns out when you give a grunt witch 6 overshield (or more with the drone) you just... have a witch, more or less. Their single target overshield tech was kind of funny in this context though.

Mesmerist, however, really shined. I ran it as a commander with metafold riposte and it created a lot of fun catch 22s - do you deal with a grunt and eat shit? Can you even do that with riposte? Mesmerist fills a lot of my wishlist for a defender and I will be using them again

vagrant grotto
dapper goblet
#

Yeah, the built-in burst tech sort of served as a soft-riposte anyway. Players didn't scan it so it was a little bit of a gotcha, but I want to see how the iterative mind game with riposte evolves if I use it more.

#

Hechatons going "I ignore its invis! And miss anway because of 14 e def..." is funny to me as well

#

I could see adding a line to the arc bow on capacitor that the OS cannot exceed the characters max hp, but thats probably clunky and overly targeted

ashen crown
#

I’m very tempted to throw a Mesmerist or Knight into my “random bullshit (and 2 Lurkers) GO!” Control Sitrep pickup game but I’m worried that’s going to mess with things too much to make me able to give good feedback on the Rebaked Wallflower NPCs or the PPG NPCs… and that it’ll be too overwhelming. Advice?

vagrant grotto
#

I say go for it if it pleases you

#

like what sort of interaction are you expecting between the NPCs

ashen crown
#

Gotcha! I think I’ll go for a Knight over a Mesmerist to avoid having an “oops all invis” sitrep on accident

sudden cosmos
#

What's up with a mesmerist and knight? I'm having the two of them together in a combat in a week or two

#

(probably two)

ashen crown
#

Combined with the Fact that Lurkers are Lurkers and are thus already really hard to hit

sudden cosmos
#

Frankly I'm not super worried about the mesmerist because there's a drone commander+lotus projector combo, so I'm guessing its invisibility will be made wholly irrelevant

ashen crown
#

There’s also gonna be a Hornet, which is the main concern

vagrant grotto
#

to not be heatgunned by the Mesmerist, simply do not be hostile to its allies after getting hit 😌

muted blaze
# dapper goblet Fielded some capacitors and mesmerists in an otherwise gruntspam combat yesterda...

Honestly, some of this feels more at fault of grunts than capacitors. Grunts take all stats of an NPC and turns its HP resilience stat down to as low as it can go, anything that gives overshield then ramps up their resilience.

And all NPCs have different strengths and weaknesses. Those with low hp resilience such as witches normally have strenghts applied elsewhere. So by removing their main weakness that has been made even weaker then ypu just have witches with half health

#

But then again, invade exists lol

vagrant grotto
#

tbf I do not envy anyone trying to hack a Witch

muted blaze
#

But then again they're witches, with high e defence

#

Yeah exac6

#

I think the capacitor shouldn’t really be balanced too much around the extremes such and it should instead just be a warning at GM discretion. In a similar way to an ultra pirate ronin, industrial berserker or an rpv ship goliath

vagrant grotto
#

yeah I'm not too worried about it

muted blaze
#

Then again, an ultra Puppeteer capacitor sounds fun

#

If you want to play inti the gimmick

dapper goblet
#

Yeah like I said, I think this isnt really the issue of the capacitor, more just sort of observable oddity

#

To be entirely fair though, I think "grunts with some resilience" isnt a wildly out of phase thing like 15 templates on a ronin clearly is. The most (most) id do is a mild nerf to the arc bow mentioned above but that introduces its own problems. Its likely fine as is, just a note.

ashen crown
ashen crown
#

Like “Lancer Core doesn’t have Overshield enemies, but it does have Grunts. Be cautious combining the two.”

muted blaze
#

PPriest has overshield

ashen crown
#

What I mean is there’s no NPC with Overshield as its central gimmick- CRB priest gives Overshield as an optional trait

#

And I don’t think there’s an CRB way for multiple NPCs to gain Overshield at once, with those being relegated to Avenger’s Fervor iirc. Meanwhile PPG has a few ways to do that

vagrant grotto
ashen crown
#

Fair fair

vagrant grotto
ashen crown
#

True, on its own it’s not at risk of going overboard- it’s when it’s combined with other Heatgun NPCs that I get worried. Hornets are scary good at heatgunning

twin escarp
#

Next fight I'm running is a significantly smaller map and still has occultist + vulture so I will probably get some opsalv use

vagrant grotto
#

Thank you for the feedback! Glad they both worked well for you and I hope they continue to deliver

sudden cosmos
#

Talk about the CRT in #gm-corner reminded me

image.png
#

Prisim, Knight, Occultist, Hatchet, and Mesmerist for (sometime in the future schedules are TBD)

vagrant grotto
#

hell yeah

sudden cosmos
#

They're also anomalies equipped with elevator clip, heliocide, memento culpa, extrude knife (pika), and Bottom of the Well respectively

#

Which reminds me, is the chattering text effect on things like extrude knife and memento culpa done in the LCP or is that formatting in foundry?

vagrant grotto
#

if you're using foundry, you can remove the HTML tags if it's irritating

sudden cosmos
#

I am actually looking to do the opposite and add it to stuff

vagrant grotto
#

ah, then yes you can look at the HTML raw in Foundry and copy/paste where appropriate

#

hell yeah

granite saddle
#

Okay so I did some thinking and I think I found a way to adress my slight gripes with your modified brace. Interested in hearing about it or nah ?

vagrant grotto
granite saddle
#

aight !
I'm thinking about it because I'm in a game playing my Sag rn, so I'll write this up when I'm done

granite saddle
#

So. It still needs some workshoping, but here goes :
Essentially, it's creating a new QA that like the base post-brace effect, gives 1 difficulty on all attacks against you until the start of your next turn, and gives you an extra use of your version of Brace for that same duration. It's essentially bringing back the BraceDownside but as a preventive measure instead of a reactive one.
That's the basic part though, what I'm unsure about next is :

  • "should it also give +1 acc to saves while we're at it ?",
  • "Is it bad that it stacks with cover ? And does it disincentivize using cover too much ?", and most importantly :
  • "Should it hinder your movement in some way ? If yes (and I think it probably should), should it be quasi-ordnance ? Instantly end your turn ? Remove your standard move ?"
    Maybe even remove the "gives you one more brace" part, I don't mind it so much if that part doesn't work out.
    I also need to figure out a one-word name for it that sounds nice, since Brace is already taken.
#

I've been frustrated for a while that no real basic/universal defensive options exist, so I thought this up for that (especially since an Eidolon layer recommends "defensive measures" as a good course of action to follow, but you can't know in advance you need some). Your brace changes are great first step at that for making Brace more accessible and usable on all damage, but that's not quite enough for me (very personally). It also throws away the +1 difficulty on further attacks aspect that I quite enjoy about base brace. (and the repeatability aspect for brace-happy builds, though that's not as important to me)

#

Man I sure do talk a lot of words huh.

vagrant grotto
#

Also something I want to suggest thinking about: Look at PF2e’s shield block reaction

#

It’s a feature that can be equipped/built with, but not everyone gets it, just the ones that care. It gives some flat damage reduction thanks to Hardness

granite saddle
granite saddle
vagrant grotto
#

Was thinking about an Overshield “raise shield” reaction (if not also a quick action to prime)

#

And yeah

#

But yeah move Brace from a universal action to an equipment action

granite saddle
vagrant grotto
#

Yeah I’m picking up what you’re putting down

granite saddle
granite saddle
#

(finished checking that too, and raise a shield is a basic action. You need to have a shield yes, but even if you just pick one up from the ground it works so yeah.)
(Given the usual circumstances of Lancer combats, I find it very believable that most mechs would have the ability to do something equivalent, whether it's dodging or blocking or anything else.)

vagrant grotto
#

Quick action to impose difficulty (once?) seems cheap and clean

#

Compare/contrast to Fragsig

granite saddle
#

It's weird when you say it like that but I get what you mean yes

vagrant grotto
#

Like, you dont need a brace downside if the downside is already “you lose a quick action”

granite saddle
#

exactly

#

the downside is before not after now

#

just wondering if it should have more juice, if that extra juice should be baseline or come from gear, and if it should cost a bit more than just a QA.

#

And also whether or not to tie it back to brace or have it be independent

vagrant grotto
granite saddle
#

Fair enough, but how does that work for Frame traits that enhance Brace (yours or your allies')

vagrant grotto
#

Reactive Weave
Reaction
Trigger: you are hit by an attack while your shield is raised
Effect: You become Invisible until the start of your next turn and may Boost

#

Sagarmatha gets “you get shield block 1/scene” for example

granite saddle
#

yeah I see

#

Not sure if that's the right direction for my table, but I see it nonetheless

#

At least we both agree there's something to do there. I'll keep thinking about my version for that one table I'm bothering to rewrite half the game for, but with any luck you'll make something of it on your side.
If (and more likely when) I do some testing of it, I'll keep you posted anyways in case it helps.

#

For now though, I gotta catch some z's; I'll have something to think about at least

vagrant grotto
#

Sleep well and thanks for your thoughts!

granite saddle
#

np, it's always a pleasure to discuss this kinda thing in here

muted blaze
#

So, I think im not a fan of that :P

Would this be a 3rd option for brace? All of then being

  • RAW brace
  • 1/Scene brace with no daze
  • QA prepare to brace (but not the prepare action)
#

It feels off to me... like im thinking what situations would I want to use a QA for brace and I think just a lot of other QAs are just better

#

It fills a previous niche I think dnds dodge filled without being as big of an action. So I can imagine it being used on the approach for a striker for example

#

But when I think of brace adjacent systems, I cant think of when I'd use the brace QA instead of something else. With reactive weave I dont know why id prepare brace instead of just boosting away for example... why be resistant and invisible if I could have been out of LOS in the first place...

And armour lock Plating, why would I brace a grapple to end it if I could just boost away from the grapple ir do something else, armour lock Plating feels a bit jank when it's proactive rather than reactive

And lastly. My 1 and only thing I'm unhappy about 1/scene brace for which ive mentioned to valk... how would this interact with drakes core power... ofc it would need extra thinking but... make it a free action?

granite saddle
#

(this is why my version will probably end up being some variation of "QA for difficulty + one extra use of brace")

vagrant grotto
# muted blaze So, I think im not a fan of that :P Would this be a 3rd option for brace? All o...

legit I'm mostly musing over stuff here and how one tactical game does it vs another

good points on brace-keyed systems; my brain says for Reactive Weave the benefit is being able to delay movement until absolutely necessary (like when you wanna hold/contest an objective at round end but otherwise want to be far away from the point)

I have no defense for Armor Lock under this paradigm

For Drake Core: I'd probably say Drake is perpetually in the "Raise Shield" state and can Shield Block 1/round while in Fortress mode

#

Actually I do have a defense for Armor Lock:

  1. Raise Shield confers an extra +1 Difficulty to attacks against them
  2. They can still use Shield Block even when Grappled. If they do so, they can break the grapple

I think the grapple break is largely niche in the first place so yeah

And these are 1 SP Systems too, let's remember that

muted blaze
#

I think it might be pretty good on Gilgamesh repair node...

#

You can treat it as a QA half a delayed stabilise if you activate it when you are low HP

#

Like, QA whilst on 5 HP, get hit by an assault that does 7 halved to 4. Then use a repair to go to full

#

Or "I really cant afford a structure check rn, but cant afford a full action stabilise"

muted blaze
#

Now I spell it out like that... repair node actually ain't too bad

ashen crown
#

Managed to run a Brigand that actually got its crit effect off, and now that I'm getting it triggered consistently I'm pretty neutral on the base Crit bonus. The consistent Hull saves made my players exclaim frequently as they kept forgetting about it, but generally it wasn't too much of a hassle to roll against. Free Prone is pretty devastating, and it kept showing, so the double gating is useful.

#

But after running "reverse Veterancy" a few times I can say I'm not personally a big fan of it

#

Because Brigand is meant to be a more "balanced" template you can deploy en masse having a trait that changes between enemies feels like a hassle to track

vagrant grotto
#

mmmmmm noted

ashen crown
#

And oftentimes when I made a Veteran Brigand I would just make the two cancel out and leave it at that

#

Just cause that was easier

vagrant grotto
#

If Lancer NPCs eventually gain automation for Veterancy or Jury Rigged, yeah that would be great

#

but altogether noted on fiddliness

ashen crown
#

If you had to pick a stat to give them difficulty on I'd personally say Systems, since that doesn't interfere with their Tech Actions anyway + a good portion of Anti-Tech tools (aka stuff that Jams) targets systems anyway. But I'd also be in favor of finding a different downside altogether

#

However as long as it isn't Hull I think you could make an argument for any of the stats- Hull is important for some of the optionals unfortunately, like Boarding Leash, but I don't think any of the others care

#

I will reiterate however (if I haven't already, I think I already have) I am a big fan of Grav Amp, that's fun

sudden cosmos
#

Full PPG opfor combat should be this weekend. Unfortunately, they're going into it so beat up that it could very likely TPK them

#

I set this stretch if the mission up with the opportunity to retreat and repair if a combat was going poorly and they're going in more or less totally attrition'd out

muted blaze
#

Or was it someone else?

ashen crown
placid glacier
muted blaze
#

Hmmm

#

I'm curious how ultra brigands and ultra pirates play out, cos ultra pirates have deadly anyway, whereas ultra brigands get deadly AND the brigand prone

inland pilot
# vagrant grotto If Lancer NPCs eventually gain automation for Veterancy or Jury Rigged, yeah tha...

Extremely late, but I have noticed something in this regard: you can get it to be automated in Witchdice (including with the rebake Veteran template) I've actually found out by adding the Mech Skill (HULL, AGILITY, SYSTEMS, ENGINGEERING) as a custom syste description to the Veterancy trait so if anyone uses that it can be a big help

I imagine this might be a hard-code on Witchdice's side of thing (considering Veterancy itself has nothing in its actual JSON which actually adds anything), but still

#

It would be nice all the same though to see that, yeah

inland pilot
#

digging a bit deeper: okay yeah its definitely Witchdice, but its not based on the trait. It's just how Witchdice reads systems and traits, where it tries to intelligently read for stuff like "+1 accuracy to systems" or "+1 difficulty to agility" and then adds that to the HASE roll buttons. Probably as a way to work better with Custom content and stuff

#

so you can, like I did just now, just add "+1 difficulty to Agility" as a custom description to ANY item and it factors it.

48fc9721db131ce993ad9ee12f1e6308.png
#

very much a side tangent but I just found this really funky

vagrant grotto
inland pilot
#

it'd be cool and simple!

vagrant grotto
#

@static kernel thoughts on this iteration of Firefly Drone?

Firefly Drone
System, Drone, Limited 2, Quick Action
Firefly Drone (Size 1/2, HP 5/8/10, Evasion 10, 
E-Defense 10, Tags: Drone)

This drone can be deployed to a space within SENSORS and line of sight. While deployed, hostile characters in Burst 2 of the drone cannot draw line of sight outside of the area. If the drone is targeted by an effect that deals any Burn, it explodes and is destroyed; all characters in Burst 2 must pass an AGILITY save or take 2/3/4 Heat and 5/7/9 Burn.
#

Also, variations on Incendiary Grenade and Long-Burn Catalyst:

Incendiary Grenade
System, Grenade, Limited 1, Full Action
Two Blast 1 areas in Range 10 are set on fire and become difficult terrain until extinguished or until the end of the scene. Characters that start their turn within either area or move into one for the first time in a round must pass an ENGINEERING save or take 2 Heat and 2/3/4 Burn. 

LONG-BURN CATALYST
Trait
Characters affected by ADHESIVE GEL gain +1 Difficulty on ENGINEERING checks and saves and cannot clear HEAT except by overheating.
#

Considering a slightly different take for Long-Burn, though:

While the Napalm is in the DANGER ZONE, characters hit by the SALAMANDER THERMOBARIC CATAPULT gain +1 Difficulty on ENGINEERING checks and saves and cannot clear HEAT except by overheating. These effects last until the end of the target’s next turn.
vagrant grotto
#

Also: I'm adding the ability for Skyburner (ultra Napalm trait) to target enemies up to 10 spaces above the two lines it draws

#

Thinking of revising Arc Feedback a little bit:

Arc Feedback
System, Overshield, Shield, Recharge 4+, Quick Tech
An allied character within SENSORS gains OVERSHIELD 4/6/8. If the target is hit by a melee attack while they have this Overshield, the attacker must pass an ENGINEERING save or be pushed up to 1 space away from the target and knocked Prone.
#

thought it felt a bit more sensible for this to trigger on something close range? Not sure if I'm happy with it though

vagrant grotto
#

Working out another Kensei optional, is this anything:

Daunting Grudge
System, Recharge 4+, Quick Tech, +2/+4/+6
The Kensei makes a tech attack against a character within SENSORS. On a hit, the target is IMPAIRED and cannot voluntarily move closer to the Kensei until the end of their next turn.
#

Huh, I suppose that's just Hunter Logic Suite: Terrify, but I'm okay with that

#

Last thought for now is whether Prism's gun is too good as-is, and if I should gate the "blind" behind consuming Lock On or not

#

okay actual last one for now, finally wrote down the Disarm effect I wanted:

DISARMING RETALIATION
Trait
As part of DEFT PARRY, after the triggering attack resolves, the Kensei may move its SPEED towards the attacker and SKIRMISH against them with its HF KINETIC SABER. On a hit, the attack deals no damage; instead, the Kensei disarms one of the target’s equipped weapons, flinging it to a space in Range 5. The target cannot use the weapon until they retrieve it (as if the weapon had the THROWN tag).
ashen crown
vagrant grotto
#

The Kensei isn't using this against nearby enemies, it's using it against midrange enemies

#

its Sensors are 10

#

It's like how Mourning Cloak uses Terrify to isolate targets

mild trail
vagrant grotto
#

anyway I'm heading to bed soon so I welcome all thoughts I just likely won't get to them until the morning

#

but I've got a lot of stuff above and I'm hoping to get a vibe check on most of it

ashen crown
vagrant grotto
#

Yeah Daunting Grudge isn't Knight's Compelled Duel, it's the side-eye the Kensei gives to That Fucker Over There to say "back off" while it deals with more pressing matters

#

Looking for Zealot and Vulture feedback, esp Vulture feedback without preplaced wrecks

#

Torrent and Mesmerist also could use some additional feedback, specifically how their durability feels

ashen crown
#

I am tempted to throw a Vulture into my “fuckface control” planned pickup

#

Mainly cause a second flying enemy would be good there

cursive plover
#

Running a Mesmerist in one of my games, will report later this week

static kernel
#

Possibly prevent people in the area from benefiting from cover, something like that? Although it's questionable whether that's a nerf tbh

twin escarp
#

I feel like if you're having issues keeping track of different jury-rigged difficulties between different brigand classes you could just apply them to the same one for that oppforce in the first place

#

which is still be more variation that it just being built into a specific stat because for example the enemies I used brigand on has kind of been hacker pirates so I've generally been giving them -engineering but for a group of more generic brigands i might just default to -systems

muted blaze
# vagrant grotto <@177875531109236738> thoughts on this iteration of Firefly Drone? ``` Firefly D...

Its me, your boy, Al... here to give some ✨ vibes ✨ based feedback

So, for something so vulnerable that just pops when hit and needs a 2 turn setup, I dont see why its limited 2... mmm it does blind everything inside though... weird, idk I'm not the biggest fan of limited systems on NPCs so...

I started writing this before I noticed the area blinds, so the blinded effect feels oppressive and it makes sense why it is limited, But the explode and how vulnerable they feels like it shouldnt be limited... hmmm idk what more i can say based on ✨ vibes ✨ than that

#

Alsoooooo, they dont work with your variant arcing rules

#

They need an ally inside the area to pop it

#

Long burn catalyst i can ask if that's stepping on spites toes, but thats just clears with time not until you kill the fucker

vagrant grotto
muted blaze
#

Ah I see

#

Ok thats less oppressive

#

Well, this really is a test of my fucked up reading comprehension IG

vagrant grotto
#

I guess the Limited 2 is… optimistic though

muted blaze
#

I'm just thinking in terms if like an ultra or an elite, they throw the drones down early, they pop... then nothing...

vagrant grotto
#

So you think a Recharge would be better?

#

I am now considering it

muted blaze
#

Personally, yeah...

#

Could have it like wolfhound recharge if you have doubts too

#

Next mission im planning on having 2 napalm in a breach and clear, lots of LOS blocking terrain

#

Ill need to double check but if you have some optionals you want tested LMK

vagrant grotto
muted blaze
#

Ah, I had long burn catalyst equipped on them but thats the one thats been changed

vagrant grotto
#

Yeah Incendiary Grenade is now the sole proprietor of Lasting Burn Areas

muted blaze
#

Cool

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I chose the long fuse because it still benefits from arcing whereas the grenades don't

vagrant grotto
#

Or at least, it will be

#

Ah fuck

#

Time to slap a tag on the nades

muted blaze
#

Oh you'll make the nades arcing 👀

#

Fascinating

vagrant grotto
#

I mean it makes sense

#

They’re grenades

#

Big question is whether 2 blast 1 areas in range 10 are worth a full action… I think they are?

muted blaze
#

Id say so

#

It feels like snipers mark somewhat

#

Like, you can just shoot asap or you can spend time setting up the Battlefield

#

Like, one is comparable to a hive swarm, but it has 2

#

And theyre better because theyre limited and not recharge 4

#

So place to for a full sounds good

#

They can also be thrown onto people AND raw can they stack?

#

They cant, because it says either..
But it does mean two napalms grenades can stack

vagrant grotto
#

sigh time to word it so it’s “while in an area that’s on fire…” or something

#

Like “characters that start their turn in an area that’s on fire must…”

muted blaze
#

Replace "either area" with "an area"?

placid glacier
#

I mean if the changes are live before this Friday I could test it since I was already planning on running napalms in my next wf mission 👀

muted blaze
#

Napalms fit wf quite well from the souns of ut

minor crest
#

Can confirm

placid glacier
#

(running them in the ||HUC Siege on Evergreen||)

vagrant grotto
#

I might have something ready by then, no promises though

placid glacier
#

👍

#

Fair dos

untold vault
twin escarp
#

Vultures make great reinforcements to large scale battles where bodies are already falling

ashen crown
#

Hmm. Vulture with a Spare Parts Rebake Strider.

ashen crown
#

Magpie Subroutines can’t be used on limited equipment without charges, correct?

muted blaze
ashen crown
#

Tho Valk has been asking to get some data for Vultures without pre-placed wrecks

muted blaze
#

I used them once, it has a similar effect of them coming as reinforcements

#

Fair

#

It was cos grim mentioned

untold vault
#

Maybe I'll consider running the encounter with a bunch of grunts instead so that they get wiped out quickly and run the vultures in as reinforcement

ashen crown
#

Do you think a Mesmerist would make a convincing Calendula analog?

#

Hypnotic Attraction is Mesmer Mine but an attack, Calendula aesthetically is commonly associated with being a Gish of sorts using a Charged Blade, there’s teleportation elements in there + plenty of hacking, and the invis can be reflavored as Firmament stuff

muted blaze
#

Honestly any fucky NPC that goes in and out of states could be flavoured as a calendula

#

Like, specter feels like the closest? But that's quite distant still

#

Mesmerist does feel better even though its still quite distant

ashen crown
#

I mean if you throw on Horror for Phase Shift Generator it’s like… it’s close enough

#

Doing intangibility right is honestly just tough

#

(Also ghost is also right there how did I forget about ghost)

#

IGF spoilers ||If Vex decides to put Lucas and Elvorix in the same fight changing Elvorix to a Ghost could be really interesting and befitting for her character||

vagrant grotto
vagrant grotto
ashen crown
vagrant grotto
#

Phantom I think?

vagrant grotto
ashen crown
#

Where a 0 charge limited system is an invalid destruction target

#

Do you think it’s something worth specifying in the FAQ?

vagrant grotto
#

Only if it comes up again imo

vagrant grotto
#

I need to run some more Vultures myself I suppose

ashen crown
#

It’s ok I plan on running a couple

#

Think I should make them reinforcements or part of the main force?

vagrant grotto
vagrant grotto
untold vault
ashen crown
#

I wanna make them reinforcements because waiting for some allies to have structured first before entering the field sounds like a better way To deploy them

vagrant grotto
ashen crown
vagrant grotto
muted blaze
vagrant grotto
#

But I also intended them to do a lil bit of stuff leading up to someone biting the dirt

#

And/or sacrifice a system/weapon if necessary leading up to things

ashen crown
untold vault
#

I'm trying to think of ways you can help usher your units towards a useful death so that the vulture can do something useful in the rounds between

ashen crown
vagrant grotto
#

Legit I expect NPCs to die as a matter of course lol

vagrant grotto
ashen crown
#

No the problem is Vultures would be perfect for this Sitrep and I wanna use them

#

As would Knights

#

And I need to stop myself from adding Mesmers to the pile

vagrant grotto
#

I will take all of this as praise for my designs hahahaha

untold vault
#

What about being able to cannibalize systems in reverse. Give them some dummy systems that they can use as floating redundancies that they can use to repair npcs who lose them?

ashen crown
#

And my impulse control is, to put it politely, shite

vagrant grotto
ashen crown
#

On the plus side Knights allow me to remove Scouts from the Sitrep, which I was unsure about including in the first place

muted blaze
vagrant grotto
#

They can also eat an ally’s gear too

muted blaze
#

Damn

#

I need some expendable grunts

vagrant grotto
#

Pair them with an Assault or sentinel

#

Have them eat the knives

muted blaze
#

"Mi lord, this gun shall serve as a fine offering for you mi lord"

#

Or have a vulture with EXTRUDE KNIFE that just stabs grunts then eats them

#

The necromedic

twin escarp
#

Upcoming encounter I have has a vulture, where it's in space and the enemies all have spacer so the flight system is redundant and is free food

#

Considering taking spacer away from the vulture and ace grunts who can already fly for that reason

#

Though there's an occultist and the vulture has opsalv so it's not particularly hungry

ashen crown
twin escarp
#

Though also it's a gauntlet mission in 0g so i could just place the entire opforce around a single flock drone and give everyone overshield

ashen crown
#

I can’t read nevermind

twin escarp
#

Oh yeah and I do want to ask

#

Do systems tagged with tech count as systems

vagrant grotto
#

I think most techs are systems but a few are traits

twin escarp
#

scary

#

I'm just thinking for like, salvaging a witch and passing a one-use Tear Down to an ally using one of the vulture's optionals

vagrant grotto
#

Deffo double check the pdf then

#

IIIRC the one official NPC tech feature that has Trait instead of System is Spite’s Crush Targeting (and SPECIFICALLY Spite’s. Goliath’s is a System. Don’t ask me why)

muted blaze
#

Core books only, sap (assassin and demolisher), crush targeting (on the spite... but not the goliath), carceri (spite), sanctuary

#

Are the only trait systems

#

Honestly... id just count any tech as a system :P