#Prototype Pattern Groups

1 messages · Page 7 of 1

placid glacier
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maybe like how the tangler cannon from suldan's retiarius works?

image.png
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conditional immobilize?

vagrant grotto
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I still consider Rocket Bola to be a weapon that needs to "hit twice" in order to get its full effect

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I'll consider the adjacency thing

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if it's really that terrifying, I can slap Ordnance on it

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then the Overwatch and Adjacency fears can be put to rest lol

granite saddle
vagrant grotto
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happy to see more playtest data on Rocket Bola in its current state

granite saddle
vagrant grotto
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It also ensures that you can only ever do it every other round

granite saddle
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Rough for the "I am mobile" guy, but now that I think about it some more it could definitely lead to engaging tactical consideration.

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The more I think avout it the more I like it actually

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Just give it a little boost to something to compensate and I'll gladly try it out tbh

granite saddle
vagrant grotto
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the concern was that it was oppressive in its current state, so Ordnance is the de-oppressor

granite saddle
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It would feel unfair to change that mid-combat, unfortunately (not flashbang. I'm incorporating that one.)

vagrant grotto
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aight, then lemme know how existing rocket bola plays out

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especially how the players feel about it

granite saddle
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(don't have it this encounter)
(I took the Normal Knife)

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Otherwise I'd have considered it

vagrant grotto
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ah yes, the Normal™️ laser knife

vagrant grotto
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I meant next time you start a fight with Hatchets, try the new tags

granite saddle
granite saddle
placid glacier
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I need to run more Extrude Knife Ogres- the last one I ran was funny

ashen crown
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Brigand gets difficulty on Hull checks right? Isn’t that a little contradictory to some of its traits like Boarding Leash?

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Was that intentional?

vagrant grotto
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Damn, the flavor flaw is biting me in the ass

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Not really intentional no

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Maybe I replace it with “this always suffers system trauma” or something

ashen crown
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You cpuld make it a different HASE stat, or something like Reverse Veterancy

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“Jury Rigged” really doesn’t suggest any specific HASE stat to hinder so it feels like dealers choice to me

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Systems could be funny- hurts a lot with its systems saves but is vulnerable to the same thing

vagrant grotto
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I also have reached the point where I strongly dislike tracking HASE boosts/flaws

ashen crown
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Valid

vagrant grotto
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So, “maybe” on the variety/reverse veterancy

granite saddle
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Ooh ! Ooh !
Maybe you could make 4 "reverse veterancy" traits (one for each HASE) and have jury rigged be "you must take one of them for each optional you take from this template". Gives you more power for more pain (while also being a good enough trade that you actually want to take the template).

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Or something like that, you see my point.

vagrant grotto
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Oh good, more bookkeeping 😛

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I see what you mean but also

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I’d rather just give them flat difficulty on all HASE

granite saddle
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That'd be a lot

vagrant grotto
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Correct

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And I’d rather NOT do that

granite saddle
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I mean, when you look at industrial for comparison...
Ehh. If you do, definitely give them a freebie trait like exotic does.
Also, perfectly reasonable to not want to look at dustgrave for balance references actually.
I trust you'll figure it out in time yourself, so do as you will.

vagrant grotto
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Industrial’s trades are sensible

But also, this is not a trade I want to make

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I will continue to rotate the trait in my mind

muted blaze
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Why does brigand have jury rigged?

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Honestly it's a trait which makes me less likely to select it as a template

vagrant grotto
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I’ll document the misgivings and grievances

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Point is to emphasize these things are weaker, thrown together, and have to fight dirty to get an edge

muted blaze
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Fair

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I assume it's a case where I look at regular templates which can be broken into multiple categories

Chaff:

  • grunt

Sidegrades:

  • vehicle, etc

Upgrades:

  • Spacer
  • mercenary
  • pirate

Massive upgrades

  • veteran
  • elite
  • ultra
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Where new content comes out, I assume new templates go into thr "upgrades" category depending on severity

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It's much nicer to spam spacers than mercs, and much nicer to spam mercs than pirates

When new content comes out I assume they go in upgrades unless stated otherwise like industrial which by design is meant to be a side grade

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Putting nerfs onto the brigand IMO, makes it feel like it should go in side grade yet it's optionals allow it to be a power boost to regular upgrade

vagrant grotto
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I mostly view brigand as a side grade

muted blaze
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I want to use it on bespoke enemies, but I don't want to weaken them

vagrant grotto
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Same with anomaly, merc, and spacer

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Like they get a minor “upgrade” sure

muted blaze
vagrant grotto
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But I wasn’t designing Brigand like it’s a purposeful leg up. Just a different set of options available

muted blaze
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"I could spam this" upgrade vs "I shouldn't spam this" upgrade

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I think just because of the optionals I couldn't see brigand as a side grade. I wouldn't make everyone in a combat a brigand

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These are atleast my opinions and why I still use pirate despite having access to brigand :P

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These are personal and i have ran brigands a couple times but unfortunately don't have any feedback on it because I ran them a while back. So I could just be wrong and this feedback could be too vibes based to be concrete

vagrant grotto
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Yeah you’re entitled to your take, all good

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But that’s certainly disheartening, since I made the Brigand to be a more spammable pirate

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Considering ditching the trip on Crit for just “Pankrati 1” on all attacks

granite saddle
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Trip on crit+save is always more spamable (and fair imo) than "pirate scout/sniper/operator/ronin/cataphract" because frankly, fuck the deadly trait.

muted blaze
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Honestly I assume it's just im not used to it being spammable and I'm so weary on spamming pirates that I see brigand as not spammable by proxy

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But "cascades your NHPs" "removes your SP" "pulls you out your cockpit" "coreworms" as optional abilities don't feel like spammable abilities

granite saddle
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SP is anomaly shit. Brigands take away yoir license rank(s)

muted blaze
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That

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Mb

granite saddle
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Also note how two of four examples you just gave are from pirate, and not Brigand specifically.

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Like yes they're part of it too

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But still

muted blaze
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4 examples

granite saddle
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Very correct : assuming I can count is not a good bet most of the time.

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There, better.

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I still stand by my point though.

muted blaze
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Honestly I won't be surprised if I'm also talking out my arse

granite saddle
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Good excuse to spam Brigands then, isn't it ?

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"sorry guys, Valk made me do it (lying)"

vagrant grotto
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Guess it’s a question of “is limited 1 prying claws comparable to giving a berserker a Nailgun”

muted blaze
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It can lead to anything from a player spending a 1 quick action tax, to a player not using their mech all combat to player death

vagrant grotto
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But! It’s 1 save and a full action. How is that compared to Nailgun Overwatch

muted blaze
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Or nothing happens as a full

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Player characters death*

vagrant grotto
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I caught your meaning

muted blaze
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The player dying in my game was not linked and the court cannot get me to admit otherwise

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Nailgun, is a thing a berserker has... I guess just in my view I see prying claws as a setpiece ability, it either does nothing/little or the entire scene hinges around it

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Nailgun IG you could say the same in some situations

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Like, it misses or the entire sitrep gets held down and permenantly immobilised by a lucky berserker

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Honestly the more I think about it I think I've just been using brigands wrong

vagrant grotto
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I mean now I’m wondering if I’ve designed brigands wrong so

muted blaze
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And I think a lot of pirate/brigand traits are like that

vagrant grotto
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Yeah it’s the classic question of variance vs consistency

muted blaze
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I can see finishing blow or vandalize spammed. Surge killer has the option to be infuriating as a player if spammed. In comparison to other "spammable template" optionals of spacer which imo is the perfect spammable template where the optionals are just good movement tools. But then again a hard to manage sidegrade template of industrials exists

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Like, honestly a lot of the traits probably aren't as bad as spammed without moderation industrials

ashen crown
muted blaze
ashen crown
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Imo it falls under a different niche- you can’t really spam it the same way you do Vehicle

muted blaze
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Just industrial is much more extreme than vehicle

ashen crown
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Valid

granite saddle
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Should be finishing the game tonight; I'm replacing the previois version with this then, or do you have an even newer one ?

vagrant grotto
granite saddle
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Alright
Good thing they didn't scan, I get to say "it always worked like this what do you mean ?"(/humor)

vagrant grotto
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Brigand's "jury-rigged" is now anti-veterancy, news at 11

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considering making my Dirty Fighting -> Pankrati 1 change too

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depends on how irritating folks find Prone on Crit to track/remember/roll

ashen crown
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Hm. Idk about that- you gotten a lot of test data on the current Dirty Fighting?

vagrant grotto
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not really no

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but I know conceptually I get annoyed with save-on-hit/crit effects at times

ashen crown
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Tru tru

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Makes it harder to deploy en-masse

vagrant grotto
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eh, Prone doesn't stack at least

granite saddle
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Yeah, but accuracy does. So the pank 1 change would make pre-exiting crit effects more accessible for those who have them

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Not as big a problem with the Kai rebakes, I guess

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I as a player, I'd feel worse about "this guy gets More Accuracy and there is Little you can do about it" than about "on crit save or prone", even though prone is a position that sucks to be in.

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While it's mostly just feels I still very much have faced a few Brigands here and there so I'm not talking completely out of my ass.

vagrant grotto
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your personal play perspective is appreciated though, thank you

potent violet
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I'm cracking open OWS on Tuesday, though the first sesh might be narrative. For the first combat, there's a pretty big separation from the high and low ground so I think swapping the Bombard with the Prism would be an easy enough swap especially in conjunction with the Seeder. Just wondering what optional I may toss on 'em.

vagrant grotto
potent violet
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I honestly am fine with dialing the damage back a bit, they lost in their finale for OSR so I want a guaranteed win for their first combat back. I was thinking OMNIglass but with the map's already existing chokepoint I feel like that truly could be an absolute bastard to navigate which honestly may make my players have to think a bit better

granite saddle
# granite saddle Should be finishing the game tonight; I'm replacing the previois version with th...

Alright so, game end (PC victory, as expected) :
won at the scoring step at the end of Round 5, with like, most of the OpFor still alive (they won by actually playing the objective is what I'm highlighting here)
Forces deployed were 3x Exotic torrents, 2x hatchets, 2x Brigand ghosts, 1 Elite vet Knight and 1 Ultra prism, with only one casualty per NPC class, minus the Prism that made it to the end.

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The Ultra Prism's bulk was plenty enough (so base should be fine for smaller threats probably), though players exclusively focused the projectors this time. Turns out, playing the prism as a hidey little bitch works. Who'd have guessed.

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The better flashbang projector saw a use, and made me wish I could have used it more if it wasn't on recharge. Used it like intended, to get out of a sticky situation (2 tempest drones next to the projector). Didn't last long though, because as soon as it put down a new projector, it got into an even worse one, and made me wish I could use it again :

image.png
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"I don't see what you're talking about"
- Xtra, 2025 colorized

vagrant grotto
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Hydra pls

granite saddle
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the targeting restriction makes it feel not litterally free too, as it made me unable to land a cheeky burst 2 when I used it.

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so good, but not too much.

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maybe tweaking some little things could benefit it, but this version is already miles ahead of the previous one.

vagrant grotto
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Yeah, should be able to just shoot the gun normally at least

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But ideally the burst catches some folks yeah

granite saddle
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the gun did catch someone. (on an Autopod attack, too. wouldn't have caught the initial attack, so that one came at the right time)

ashen crown
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Huh, weird Prism Thing I just realized

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You could in theory grapple the projector and immobilize the prism

vagrant grotto
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Correct

ashen crown
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Neat

vagrant grotto
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It’s a Weird Interaction but yeah

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Forces it to set another projector to escape easily

ashen crown
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The projector is meant to be both a strength and weakness after all

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Oh wait the Projector is untraceable

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*untargetable

vagrant grotto
ashen crown
granite saddle
vagrant grotto
granite saddle
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but the heatcap change is so necessary, like, damn

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took two stress almost entirely by itself.

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(granted, I did do The Funny™️ of repairing a weapon for heat instead of Jammed until SoNT for one of those, but still.)

vagrant grotto
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I currently have v1.5 opened up on my laptop so deffo hit me with any other feedback

granite saddle
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though that did lead to the session highlight of Tactical Genius by Me.
Used a storm surge to get all the drones outta here, and a ghost's bolster to stop the meltdown it got itself into.

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Hatchets were good, no notes.

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(I mean, except the previous one of sensor range, yaddi yadda)

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Torrent's Living weaponry+Tsunami combo triggered a grand total of

ONCE

In the last turn of the last round, just to show my players that they had it from the start. (Torrents were either full health when it would trigger, or dead before their next turn.)

vagrant grotto
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Huh, fascinating. How did players feel about Torrents in general? The forced movement, the soft cover, etc

granite saddle
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Still on board with keeping Torrent and wavebreaker as opposite smart/dumb though.

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Same as last time "these guys are gonna be a problem, deal with them [insert player here]"

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They are still very fast though, and with the turning off of reactions on storm surge, that could be a lot. Not here, sure, but I'd advise to keep an eye on it.

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Knight was already dead, so same as last time.

vagrant grotto
granite saddle
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Got some stuff to say on the ghost too, though.

vagrant grotto
granite saddle
granite saddle
vagrant grotto
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Sensible, then

granite saddle
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not any more than it needed, just some hacks etc, and the occasional "power-word-Gun" across the map from the Tagetes.

granite saddle
vagrant grotto
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Brigand controls it but the Hydra still owns it

granite saddle
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Huh. Good to know, because I didn't rule it like that. oops.

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that's what the FaQ is for, I guess.

vagrant grotto
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Indeed

granite saddle
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for point 2 I mean. Point 1 was a given because I don't have the weapon on-hand so I just asked the Hydra to roll the attack himself.

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Secondly : Pardox state in its current form is a lot, and that's the players and me saying that. Since its Better-In-Every-Way Invisibility (no bypass with anti-invis tools, no reliable, on a whole action [fucks over barrages and full techs should they happen]), on demand, infinitely renewable, at no cost except opportunity cost (which is very low because this is The Best Action it could do).
As long as you're lucky and win your coin flips, it's a major action waster.
Turning it off (by killing the Ghost) is easy, sure, once the ghost is out, but Paradox State applies on effects that would break the Bond too, so even that's hard.

Point is : if you change nothing else, at least let people re-target as normal. If you don't want to do that, something needs to happen here.

vagrant grotto
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Noted

granite saddle
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This might have been influenced by the fact that I succeeded on every 4+ check I made except one (a ram, which went through and let the following Skirmish kill the gost), but that is still a possibility that should be accounted for.

vagrant grotto
granite saddle
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at least one

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don't remember though, that was like 18 hours ago.

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Don't think that's where you should be focusing on though, personally.

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I mean

vagrant grotto
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It’s the quickest and easiest so naturally it comes to mind first

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Anyway

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Considering options

granite saddle
granite saddle
vagrant grotto
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I’m not adding recharge to it, that’s for sure

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Maybe I’ll bump the Ghost’s base HC and give it self-heat 1

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Then it heats up the ghost and its buddy

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Though tbf that may make it forbidding for the buddy

granite saddle
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Don't know. The heat dimension of the ability wasn't explored much this time, because they went on the hatchets (no Self heat) and the players never targeted those with heat generating abilities, so...

vagrant grotto
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Quantum bond also adds heat so

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But yeah

granite saddle
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I'll be honest, never felt the need to use it.

granite saddle
vagrant grotto
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I do wonder if the strat for dealing with Paradox State is Quick Tech Invade > Skirmish

granite saddle
vagrant grotto
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I will note that Full Tech and Barrage do allow for dynamic targeting mid-action

granite saddle
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sure, it only eats one part of it, yes.
Except on the Full Tech Options.
Except on Super Heavies.
Except if they're the only target in range for the weapon(s) that wasn't just wasted.

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that last one is on the player for sure, yes, but still.

vagrant grotto
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Okay on those first 2, it’s no different from invisible. Not swayed on those

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It’s like, Invisible+ in that situation sure

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In any case, noted

granite saddle
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Full tech though, yeah.

vagrant grotto
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In any case, noted

granite saddle
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aight.

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not much else then. Sitrep good, map good, NPCs as a whole pretty good.

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Oh, just one last thing. Ghost can't just end a bond by stepping out of its ally, or in any way if another ally isn't nearby. Intentional ?

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I don't feel any particular way towards that fact, just found it weird in the moment.

vagrant grotto
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How bulky did the Torrents feel?

vagrant grotto
granite saddle
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Speed 6 intangible gives me Unwise Thoughts when objectives/prime Bolster targets are on the map

vagrant grotto
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I guess I can remove the “only”

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Not much difference other than simple flexibility

granite saddle
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Depends on if you want to allow that kind of flexibility then, see what you want to do.

granite saddle
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health and evasion scaling + perma soft cover might be a lot at some LLs, but right here right now they felt good.

vagrant grotto
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Remind me of the LL?

granite saddle
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LL6.

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Can get you the PC builds if you want them, since you already have the NPC builds.

vagrant grotto
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Please and thank you

granite saddle
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In short in the meantime, 3x tempest drone Hydra, Bolt thrower Tagetes, Nelson but with Vanguard 3 DSAS as an off-weapon (MVP), Shenanigans Lycan.

vagrant grotto
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So 3 DPS and a Controller-DPS?

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Unless Lycan was leaning hard into defender

vagrant grotto
granite saddle
# vagrant grotto Please and thank you 
[ LICENSES ]
  HORUS Manticore 2, HORUS Goblin 1, IPS-N Nelson 1, HORUS Gorgon 2
[ CORE BONUSES ]
  The Lesson of the Open Door, Overpower Caliber
[ TALENTS ]
  LEGIONNAIRE 3, Hacker 2, Pankrati 2, Vanguard 1, House Guard 1
[ STATS ]
  HULL:2 AGI:0 SYS:2 ENGI:2
  STRUCTURE:4 HP:17 ARMOR:2
  STRESS:4 HEATCAP:8 REPAIR:4
  TECH ATK:+3 LIMITED:+1
  SPD:3 EVA:6 EDEF:12 SENSE:8 SAVE:15
[ WEAPONS ]
  Integrated: Shock Claws
  Integrated: Data Dart
  FLEX MOUNT: Autopod // Overpower Caliber
  HEAVY MOUNT: Arc Projector
[ SYSTEMS ]
  H0R_OS System Upgrade I, Smite, Bulwark Mods, Personalizations, //SCORPION V70.1```

```-- HORUS Hydra @ LL6 --
[ LICENSES ]
  HORUS Hydra 3, HORUS Gorgon 1, HORUS Goblin 1, HORUS Balor 1
[ CORE BONUSES ]
  The Lesson of the Held Image, Overpower Caliber
[ TALENTS ]
  Technophile 3, Black Thumb 2, Drone Commander 2, Spotter 2
[ STATS ]
  HULL:4 AGI:0 SYS:4 ENGI:0
  STRUCTURE:4 HP:19 ARMOR:1
  STRESS:4 HEATCAP:5 REPAIR:6
  TECH ATK:+5 LIMITED:+0
  SPD:5 EVA:7 EDEF:14 SENSE:10 SAVE:13
[ WEAPONS ]
  MAIN MOUNT: Autopod // Overpower Caliber
  HEAVY MOUNT: Ghast Nexus
[ SYSTEMS ]
  Enlightenment-Class NHP, PUPPETMASTER, Assassin Drone, Tempest Drone, Tempest Drone, Tempest Drone, Turret Drones x3```

```-- HA Tagetes @ LL6 --
[ LICENSES ]
  HA Sherman 2, HA Barbarossa 1, HA Iskander 1, IPS-N Raleigh 2
[ CORE BONUSES ]
  Auto-Stabilizing Hardpoints, Overpower Caliber
[ TALENTS ]
  Crack Shot 3, Tactician 3, Nuclear Cavalier 2, House Guard 1
[ STATS ]
  HULL:4 AGI:0 SYS:0 ENGI:4
  STRUCTURE:4 HP:21 ARMOR:1
  STRESS:4 HEATCAP:12 REPAIR:6
  TECH ATK:-1 LIMITED:+2
  SPD:3 EVA:7 EDEF:8 SENSE:8 SAVE:13
[ WEAPONS ]
  FLEX MOUNT: Stub Cannon / Stub Cannon
  MAIN MOUNT: SOL-Pattern Laser Rifle
  HEAVY MOUNT: Bolt Thrower // Overpower Caliber, Auto-Stabilizing Hardpoints
[ SYSTEMS ]
  Redundant Systems Upgrade x3, “Roland” Chamber, Siege Stabilizers, Personalizations```

And that's all I have for the Nelson right now.
image.png
granite saddle
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You do you ofc, but saying that just in case.

vagrant grotto
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@granite saddle thank you again for the playtest report, this is helpful

granite saddle
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No problem

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And besides, I'm the one having fun here, so I should be thanking you.

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Getting to be a part of this project, even somewhat, is an honor, and all the thanks I need.

vagrant grotto
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Update 1.5.0 is live!

itch.io
Update to 1.5.0!

1.5.0 NPC Classes BREAKING CHANGE : All Veteran and Ultra features have had their IDs changed. This will break any NPCs on CompCon that currently use those features. Please remove them before updating...

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there's a few things on my bug tracker that I'm gonna monitor (i.e. does Rocket Bola need Ordnance now and should I remove the Save vs Prone on Crits for Brigands) but I'm gonna let playtest feedback guide my pen on those

tame siren
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so, quick question.

For the Arc Feedback, when it says

A hostile character that causes the target to lose this OVERSHIELD must pass an ENGINEERING save or become SHREDDED until the end of their next turn and take 2/4/6.

I assume that by "lose this OVERSHIELD" its means depleting the over shield entirely, not just damaging some of it.

vagrant grotto
upbeat obsidian
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Zealot rework detected

vagrant grotto
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It’s light, so I don’t know if it’ll do the trick or not

spark fjord
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Our one comment on this is just, as someone who rotated the idea of "Enemy team controls 1 ally and ally controls 1 enemy" and got some rather good feedback, this runs into the trouble where the "optimal" way to use this is to just, overcharge in order to run up their total counter
Overcharge is a very important tactical button that rewards saving it and using it sparingly. Having an enemy that can just say "actually I can just use this on you three times in order to invalidate all of that" does make for a threatening tool, but the impact feels like it'd be negative overall.

and oh dear god we didn't read this thread for a month we're so sorry to dive this far back lmao, we didn't realize until we started scrolling,
at least that gave us the time to realize we had pings on for this reply and then realize again that you want those
...and we may have forgotten that there was an overcharge adjustment of some kind, we can't recall, anyways this message has been cooking for like 20 mintus we're gonna send it

vagrant grotto
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all good haha

vagrant grotto
spark fjord
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Gotcha

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difference to the system or to Overcharge?

vagrant grotto
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1/scene for character is a reasonable clause to add though

vagrant grotto
spark fjord
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gotch

spark fjord
static kernel
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it is, at minimum, a much nastier Predatory Logic i guess

ashen crown
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Ya know I was dwelling on it for a while, and after running combat again after a while… I think Forced Obselecense being able to affect a character multiple times isn’t a bad thing if it’s a high enough recharge

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No playtest data to back this up (yet) tho, just vibes

placid glacier
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next week I got an ultra encounter with FO (attempting to curb my CPR player a tad) so I'll say how that goes

placid glacier
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do you think it would be mean to replace the Specter in Wallflower's ||Trapdoor Spider|| with an Anomaly Ogre with Extrude Knife?

muted blaze
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It doesn't make much narrative sense why they would be an anomaly instead that fight?

placid glacier
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Yeah fair- idk weird ||Witness|| stuff

inland pilot
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yeah my take with that is thats not what ||Witness|| does in the slightest

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wallflower spoiler stuff maybe: ||Witness isn't like, "being psychic" - it doesn't have truly tangible effects on realspace in the same way more overt reality-bending shit like Firmament access or what have you. its a way of speaking and a way of thinking, it is language and emotion and thought and experience and the subjective in one. you can't use [Witness] to punch holes in metal and things. hell, even the Emperor basically implies [Witness] is used more as an IFF, and otherwise acts as an inspiration for the technological breakthroughs they researched like "superpositional defensive lensing" which actually give the shields||

vagrant grotto
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Sounds like an area of creative liberties haha

inland pilot
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a little bit, yeah

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i admit to being opinionated on that thing because i think ||actually just making it psychic shit kind of undermines a lot of the themes and stuff in regards to [witness]. its keyed hard about communication and understanding; "Do not seek to know; seek to accept."||

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||at least thats how i've always reflected on it, that seeing it as a "power", over yourself and others, is the objective mistake||

granite saddle
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||In the same way I have some gripes with how the Aun just have litteral magic, I love Witness because it isn't that. It looks like it to us, sure, but that's because we're aliens to it. Try being the first one to explain to an egregorian the experience of "not being a [sorta-hivemind]". Shit's wack; they wouldn't [believe/understand] it.||

#

No matter how you interpret witness though, one thing always stays the same :
Man, it makes you wish you had it.

ashen crown
#

Ya know on the ||topic of the Aun having literal magic… should I keep spoiler tagging that if I’m not gonna mention Egregorians?||

#

Wait this is the wrong thread for that lol

inland pilot
#

Aun + Firmament aren't really as plot related as the other things so thats fine

ashen crown
#

Yeah but it was about a different module and I forgot this isn’t the thread for that lmao

placid glacier
jovial elm
#

@vagrant grotto have you run any NPCs that daze opponents?

#

if so, how did it go?

vagrant grotto
#

Right now Daze is restricted to my alt structure rules

#

I’ve taken a lot of effort to keep my optional rules loosely coupled from the rest of PPG

#

Naturally that means I miss out on some potentially interesting design space, but overall I’m okay with it

granite saddle
#

Hey Valk, quick question for you :
Would you condone using rule of cool to allow Return To Sender to reflect a TSS1 usage, even though it's not supposed to be able to ?

#

Just for the funnies, you know how it is.

vagrant grotto
#

Though I’d likely require an extra justification

granite saddle
#

(this is one of the rare cases where the script is flipped and the best answer is technically "ask your players", lol)

vagrant grotto
#

Because there’s something funny about “okay dodge THIS” and they clock a hatchet with a rock

#

So if it’s a size 2 hatchet, yes

granite saddle
#

Yeah. I wouldn't do it if they already knew about the ability (scan, already used it...), but if I haven't (or know they didn't plan for that) it's fair game

granite saddle
slow arch
#

I've been thinking about asking you if I could steal Dazed for Brace in LT // if you had any design thoughts about it. Seems a little excessive to have a condition with exactly one source, but I think it'd give players a better reminder of why they're not getting actions that turn.

vagrant grotto
#

Consider also that as I wrote it, Dazed is a condition, that can be Stabilized off

#

Could be treated as a status instead if you wanted though

slow arch
#

I kinda like that actually.

#

Are there any lich shenanigans that enables too?

vagrant grotto
#

Then just keep the interaction with Redundant Systems Upgrade in mind I suppose

#

And yes probably with antilinear time? Maybe

slow arch
#

Interesting, both those seem fine to leave as clever workarounds. If the lich wants to stop taking reactions it's their funeral

ashen crown
#

Ya know speaking of which- should Dazed be cleared by Grease Monkey 2 or no?

#

Since that doesn’t say all conditions, just most of them

vagrant grotto
#

the fact that Grease Monkey 2 can't clear Shredded strikes me as one of those "I forgot something from the list" things, just like Spotter 2

static kernel
vagrant grotto
ashen crown
#

I understand it even tho it’s annoying

granite saddle
#

Yeah, I find that it's an important one to have, personally.
Not qualified enough to say if it's particularly well executed, though.

ashen crown
#

It’s something that keeps coming up though- when players say “I’m gonna stabilize to repair and clear the condition Exposed/Intangible” it’s easy for me to supply a reason why they can’t in just a few words

#

It just has growing pains that never quite go away

#

Also, out of curiosity Valk- do you recommend running Anomalies with just one Anomaly optional, or do you encourage using 2 or 3 Optionals on a single NPC?

#
  • nuance if you have anything specific to add
granite saddle
#

The trait does state one anomaly trait, and I think I remember seeing Valk mention that that was very deliberate

#

Not sure though, I'll search it up

ashen crown
#

I do recall that- feels reasonable but also a tad restrictive for my tastes. I guess a better question to ask is what to keep in mind if I was considering ignoring that rule?

granite saddle
#

Found it

ashen crown
#

The anomaly optionals are high power, but it’s a mixed bag (you get the exotic traits mixed in too, and some of the anomaly optionals are somewhat lower power or more subtle)

granite saddle
#

Here too

ashen crown
#

Makes sense makes sense

vagrant grotto
#

Any more and you void your warranty (more)

ashen crown
#

Gotcha

granite saddle
#

I think the biggest thing for multiple traits would be "do I pile up on one guy (so the others get off easy and can carry the other guy's weight) or do I spread the love (so one guy doesn't feel singeled out) ?"

vagrant grotto
#

It’s mostly because I think having too many weird things on one guy makes them all feel trite and boring

ashen crown
#

Fair enough- I’ll not ignore it then

#

Let’s Exotic be distinct at the very least- those optionals are still weird but are weaker

vagrant grotto
#

“I explode like the sun and also rewrite your backstory”

#

Make distinct anomalies have distinct abilities IMHO

#

Anomaly Berserker with Elevator Clip in the same fight as an Anomaly leech with Heliocide

ashen crown
#

It does make it more of a “deploy en masse” optional but that’s probably a good thing

vagrant grotto
#

Exactly

ashen crown
#

It does make me feel a little bad just giving it to one enemy but we’ll see

placid glacier
#

Gonna be running a skirmish oneshot this week- anything that needs testing this patch?

vagrant grotto
#

Other than that, probably Ghost? It got a few more tweaks to its heat and heat costs

#

Oh, and one that’ll excite you, @placid glacier : Smart Rocket Bola

#

I need to figure out how it feels in its current state

granite saddle
#

If you check out the Hatchet, I think taking a closer look at cleaving retrieval could be good too.
I just realized that I might be biased towards using the retrieval effect, and now that it's a single-target QA, instead of an aoe free action, I don't know if it's actually worth it. Especially with how hard lining up the directly away push to be useful is, it might actually need a bit more juice.

vagrant grotto
#

I think I've gotten some positive feedback on reworked Hatchet? but yeah

granite saddle
#

You did, it was from me. But as I said, I might actually have been a bit biased on that part. I didn't think to take note of it during my playtest unfortunately. Might have been because of the Nelson actually : try pushing that away from the point in a meaningful manner.

vagrant grotto
#

not just you though

#

but anyway, idk

#

try it, I suppose

placid glacier
vagrant grotto
#

I might be a little concerned about Hatchet's? dunno

placid glacier
#

👍

#

Alright I'll run a vet Hatchet to test rocket and the vet trait, and some Ultra for good measure

placid glacier
#

actually-

ok well I have settled on an Ultra Zealot since that does need testing but also I thought it would be funny

#

I'm thinking instead Vet Vulture?

#

and just some standard Hatchets with rocket bolas

vagrant grotto
#

sounds like a neat comp yeah

placid glacier
#

do I really throw together entirely new tokens just for a war game one-shot?

oh who am I kidding- I'm bored

#

anyway comp I got so far is

Ultra Zealot (Undying Faith, Rally the Righteous, Supreme Mobility, Superior Reactor)

Vet Vulture (Grapplescrapper, Opportunistic Salvage, "Carcass" bunker)

Brisk Stellarine [Crisis Core] Pyro [K] (Superhot, Camouflage Beacon)

1-2(?) Hatchets (Rocket Bola)

For 4 players so- would probably just come up with some reinforcements maybe?

vagrant grotto
#

what's the sitrep, if any

placid glacier
#

was thinking just standard combat- but hmm

#

escort maybe?

#

yeah escort actually

#

I'll lock that in

vagrant grotto
#

Escort good

#

CRB Escort, or PPG Lift/Drag Escort?

placid glacier
#

was thinking CRB but I could refresh myself on the PPG one

vagrant grotto
#

IME they're mostly the same, just PPG has more action costs involved (but also, more opportunities to wrest an objective out of enemy hands)

granite saddle
#

And also, if the enemies don't also use actions on it, they'll just straight-up lose, so it's not just an action sink for the players.

muted blaze
#

Just revealed next combat to the players for next session
"There is an industrial horror support, A horror sentinel, an elite horror specter named "Scopophobia", a veteran horror cataphract named "WH:/ERE CA/N YOU RUN!///?", a horror scourer"

"Oh there's also a mech, class and template are unknown"

Players: "Oh I don't like that!"

granite saddle
#

I will say, PPG escort/extraction are great, but the best part about those rules imo is that they're modular/general enough to allow you to "just do whatever", ie "make up sitreps as needed".
My last game was a kinda Cotrol/Holdout/Escort amalgamation that we made up in here about what, 3 hours before game time ? And it still fucked, so it's pretty freeing in the "you can improvise now" department.

vagrant grotto
#

this is so extremely validating and encouraging to hear tbh

#

esp because I hope to get some freeform sitrep stuff out there at some point, if someone doesn't beat me to it first

granite saddle
#

Even with the QA cost, most players essentially went "OK, got it" and then never mentioned it again because it just. doesn't feel out of place. It Just Works.
In my playtests at least, might not be universally applicable.

vagrant grotto
#

oh btw @muted blaze I'm prepping an Escort now

SPOILER_image.png
#

I swear I will make fetch this teamcomp happen

muted blaze
#

🫡

granite saddle
#

I knew I recognized those burst 2 size 2s.

vagrant grotto
#

basically constrained the 35x21 map to 26x15 😎

#

my small map style cannot be defeated

granite saddle
#

Breaking News : Valk first Lancer GM to make 1x1 map, somehow works out anyways. More at 11.

#

I really have enjoyed small maps now that I'm experimenting with them. Only problem is it makes just how bad I am at making maps more obvious.

#

I think I can have a big map once per mission. As a treat.

vagrant grotto
#

I'll be real, my 15x15 maps have been rough

#

I still have hope for them, but I'm liking the 22x17-ish maps more

#

I know for sure though that the LMCT isn't made with my style in mind, so I've gotta actually put in effort in sourcing and/or forging my maps lol

#

I wanted to run something this Saturday but it's late in the week already...

placid glacier
vagrant grotto
#

Hmmm

#

I can see the appeal but I don’t know what you mean by aggressive?

#

Like “this is fighting in range of Zeal”?

#

If so I don’t expect it to live long, but go for it

vagrant grotto
#

Title: Valk's Lancer Playground - Stiff Competition
Game System: LANCER RPG
Platform: FoundryVTT
Chat: Voice through Pilot NET Discord, text through Foundry
Availability: 4/4 seats remaining
Time: <t:1747501200:F>, ~4-5 hours in length.
Tone: Fast and furious playtest skirmishes.
Hook: Get the shipment to the liftoff point! Time permitting, shut down the competition's teleportation device!
Requirements: Sign up with this Google form! Create an LL6 character using Massif-published content. Homebrew permitted on a case-by-case basis; please send me the LCP!
Applications close: <t:1747429200:F>
Details: This is a playtest for some of NPCs from #1334655875679260692, as well as my own homebrew NPCs and special house rules. Most of my houserules can be found in #1254229800952922193 and my house rule repository, but key highlights:

  • Overcharge lets you reroll an attack/check/save instead of take an extra action, and refreshes by spending a repair.
  • Aid allows an ally to split the action cost of Stabilize!
  • **Brace **is 1/scene but now has no downside.
  • NPCs with Recharge abilities also take Self Heat from those abilities.
  • Overheating can inflict Overheated, which prevents use of self-heat abilities.
  • Structure Damage is replaced with picking between being Dazed or suffering System Trauma.
  • All mechs only have 1 Stress, become Exposed & Overheated upon exceeding max heat cap, and take excess heat as irreducible Energy damage.
  • Lifting/Dragging rules are revamped to support Escort Objectives in a sensible way!

Other: I’m Valk! I’ve previously published several third-party modules for Lancer. I run brisk and fluid combats. If you have any questions about the rules I plan to include, please ask!

#

doing my usual rounds; if you want in, fill in the form

muted blaze
#

GL 🫡

placid glacier
#

just for clarification- does Undying Faith have a limit?

vagrant grotto
#

or rather, until Zeal ends

placid glacier
#

what I thought yeah

vagrant grotto
#

the big question over that right now is "how does this feel with the Range 5 Zeal"

placid glacier
#

👍

meager iron
#

Ran a combat last night with a few of the NPCs. Was fun, though a few ended up not getting as much opportunity to shine. I think if I had bothered to make a distinct map instead of reusing an old one they might have benefitted a bit more, but it is what it is.

#

In particular I used a few Anchors, Assaults, Capacitors, and a Veteran Hive. First Capacitor died before it could do anything, and the Anchors struggled a bit with speed and position (though admittedly, it was a Recon sitrep where the players found the True Control Zone very quickly, so).

vagrant grotto
meager iron
#

Ah, yeah, it looks to be an older version.

#

I'll have to go download the newer lcp.

vagrant grotto
#

All good, just makes me glad I committed to the change haha

meager iron
#

I will say this was an LL4 sitrep, so it sits in that space where the players are really strong but the NPCs are still Tier 1.

vagrant grotto
#

Yeah no completely understood

tall junco
#

We can discuss here or over there, dunno which would be appropriate

#

I already have the Nelly and it's systems in.

vagrant grotto
tall junco
#

These are all 'push/escort to the objective' missions, right?

#

No holdout, control, demolition, etc?

tall junco
vagrant grotto
#

But also, testing the worst cases is important too

muted blaze
#

How is cover calculated on the napalm's gun?

#

Is it calculated from the Napalm or the origin of the line?

tall junco
vagrant grotto
vagrant grotto
muted blaze
# vagrant grotto Origin of the line, like blasts

Cool, being pedantic... The definition for lines don't originate and draw LOS from the base of the line unlike blasts and bursts. So reading into the CRB I think it's LOS and cover drawn from the attacker?

#

IDK if it's worth adding an extra clause for that or just keep it like that

#

I asked the question before I looked at the CRB, then you answered and I checked the CRB... Don't want it to look like I'm saying "Hey how does this work? Oh well you're wrong"

vagrant grotto
#

arcing is bonkers anyway

#

It looks like I have a line or two to spare on Napalm so I can maybe work it in

#

hm. Looking at the heat on the Salamander Catapult though. Wondering if folks have tried Napalm at T2/3 and have Opinions™️ on the applied heat

muted blaze
#

From a vibes based look it looks more fine on that than say mesmerist because it's a SHEAVY

#

Actaully 4 is a lot

vagrant grotto
#

right right, but vibes can change

#

and yeah

muted blaze
#

Actually T3 is a lot

vagrant grotto
#

I might make it a flat 2/2/2. Or 2/3/3.

#

after a playtest

muted blaze
#

2/3/3 sounds good, but Long burn catalyst having 2/2/2 could also work?

#

Yeah playtest first

vagrant grotto
#

Long-Burn Catalyst T3... that's 7 heat if it hits and a buddy doesn't shove you off and you fail the save intensifeyes

muted blaze
#

L

#

TBF

vagrant grotto
#

mmmmm. I might do the flat 2 there

muted blaze
#

ALSOOOOOO I had a concern but still purely vibes based... Mesmerist Metafold riposte, Reaction 2 turn jammed sounds very potent even as a 1/scene ability. And I'm curious how shit would have gone in the playtest if they had that, since we fought like... 4 mesmerists?

#

4 1-2 round jams as a reaction sound gnarly

#

At a range 10

#

IG only against threat 2 attacks

vagrant grotto
#

yeah you'd need to be within striking distance from the buddy

#

if it proves to be an issue I can change the wording from Overwatch to Skirmish

#

because as it stands this does also eat its overwatch

muted blaze
#

I can probs slip one in next combat

#

(Me having to go to my phone because a player was watching over my shoulder)

vagrant grotto
muted blaze
#

Yeaaaah

#

And i dont really wanna throw 4 into the next combat

vagrant grotto
#

2 or 3 at minimum

muted blaze
#

But It's fighting horrible horus undead so it fits 😛

tall junco
vagrant grotto
#

I do but I've been busy, I'll read it soon

tall junco
#

DM/VC when you have the chance to discuss the details/permission, so I don't clog up your homebrew channel with chatter of my own homebrew?
I'd feel bad if I ended up flooding your channel with that

vagrant grotto
tall junco
#

Alright

vagrant grotto
#

@spark fjord @static kernel

Stolen Cycles
Trait, Loading, Quick Tech, +2/+4/+6
The Anomaly makes a tech attack against a character that can OVERCHARGE in SENSORS. On a hit, the Anomaly chooses an ally within SENSORS. 1/scene, the ally may OVERCHARGE using the target’s OVERCHARGE counter. This increases the target’s counter, but the ally takes the Heat. This may affect a character only once per FULL REPAIR.

Better?

spark fjord
#

that's probably well within balance we think

vagrant grotto
#

it's either that, or I split the heat cost between them

#

we'll see, no one's used it yet

ashen crown
muted blaze
#

You could move it, just that the size 3 speed 6 Lancaster was faster

vagrant grotto
#

it was a size 2 objective, and they were size 1/2. Under lift/drag rules it would be a no-go

#

can only lift 1 size larger

muted blaze
#

Oh

#

Huh...

vagrant grotto
#

I was okay making it size 2 since you literally had a Taraxacum and a Fomorian Lancaster

muted blaze
#

Aye fair

#

Still, idk how i would've felt personally being told "you can't interact with the objective"

granite saddle
#

Unfortunately, the only other answer is GrappleBall mechanics.

#

Which, uh
I don't blame anyone for not even trying to implement

vagrant grotto
#

Sitreps should be shaped to fit the players’ goals

#

(And other alternatives could work too, like finding equipment that can drag large stuff around)

granite saddle
#

of course, of course

placid glacier
#

threw this together to represent a vulture (uncolored cus its just for a skirmish oneshot but- I can also color it up however I want in the future anyway sniles)

wgVulture.png
vagrant grotto
#

Hell yeah

placid glacier
#

also a zealot

judge.png
granite saddle
#

Well. Too bad the game fell through, it happens, but it did make me think about the kutuzov and your optional rules : Should Aid be added to the list of actions that trigger Parallel projectors ?

#

It does feel in the spirit of things, imo.

#

Also, related somewhat on the topic of PC-side stuff :
Seeing how you fixed the issue of allied grapples (because now that usecase is covered by the handling rules), would you consider having something along the lines of "allied ramming" ? You know, to get a friend out of [a bad place to be] get-down-mister-president style when you don't have forced movement options (like at low LLs and for non-controllers). A little shove, as a treat.
Biggest problem with it currently is Prone is way too rough to ever be justified and you have to hit first too. maybe automatic kb1 but you have to hit [normal evasion/evasion 8] to have them not fall prone too ? Somewhat inspired by your latch drone changes.
Might be way too much for you, but I think I'll try it out myself anyways; in case it's any good.

vagrant grotto
#

hm. I'm just wishing Lancer had Pathfinder 2e's combat actions at this point

#

reposition, shove, grapple (in a sensible way)

placid glacier
#

Finished up my Skirmish oneshot

Party (LL4): Zheng, Caliban, Pegi, Aphrodite (Iridia)

(if a base NPC, assume it's a Kai rebake)

OPFOR
1x Ultra Zealot (Undying Faith, Rally the Righteous, Supreme Mobility, Superior Reactor)
1x Veteran Vulture (Grapplescrapper, Opportunistic Salvage, "Carcass" bunker)
1x Hatchet (Rocket Bola)
1x Brisk Stellarine Pyro (Superhot, Camouflage Beacon)
1x Pattern Group Cataphract (Dream Logic)

OPFOR Reinforcements
1x Brigand Sorcerer [Did not come into play]
1x Stellarine Archer [Did not come into play]
1x Barricade (Hunger/Pursuit, Seismic Repulsor)
2x Grunt Defenders [Did not come into play]

Ultra Zealot

  • Fanatical Charge was great for getting OPFOR into the thick of things. I wanted to use it when cornered by the Caliban to get it and its allies repositioned but didn't because of reaction fire. Maybe giving just this movement the Engagement and Reaction immunity? Probably would throw balance out of whack but just something I felt was lacking with this specifically
  • Range 5 Zeal was really helpful with playing aggressively, definitely felt the Engagement and Reaction immunity with the Cali, but I was surprised at how much the OS could really soak
  • Paired nicely with the Pyro with the caveat that I needed to play carefully to not leave it behind
  • Rally the Righteous, again, helped the Hatchet get out of a sticky spot
  • Unfortunately got focused down by both the Zheng and Caliban before Undying Faith could proc on anything :(
  • Never played with the Emberlight when it was still Burst, but I did enjoy thinking about its positioning with the cone 5

Overall: I really enjoy this iteration of the Zealot- maybe feels a bit too squishy but considering the buffs it can give- a 100% fair trade off- if I ever run an Ultra Zealot again in the future I'd prob give it Shroudfield Invis options or pair it with a mirage

Veteran Vulture

  • Wasn't able to get too much value off of magpie since my Zheng player went and ping ponged off my pre-placed mech snacks ;(
    (/j)
  • Grapplescrapper was clutch in reaching an out of position cataphract mech to give the Zealot an OS boost
  • Jumpstart... I don't want to say it feels too strong because I only got to use Magpie once but- it did feel strong basically getting a free extra bonus off Magpie (why I went with giving the Zealot an OS boost instead of spending it to only recharge Fanatical Charge- was able to recharge and give the extra boost)
  • Opportunistic Salvage unfortunately didn't get its time in the sun without a player running drones or too many deployables exploding- will have to try again with something like an engi or a seeder

Overall: Very solid support option- still has good survivability, and grapplecaster feels like a nice veteran trait to make it so it can be slightly more flexible with its positioning

Hatchet

  • Flipkick was able to get better use this time with the zealot buffs sniles sneetly :)
  • Rocket Bola did it's job to punish the overconfident Zheng who dove the backline, unfortunately got cornered by the Caliban and spent a turn getting pushed into a corner so it never found the quick action to retrieve the bola to try to see how the Cali would fare
  • Thinking about the bola- if the concern is someone would try and give the immobilized while adjacent to someone, what if it has the same clause as the throwing axe where it's bonus effect only comes into play when not engaged? idk- just my two cents on the manner- I liked the mobility and barraging to tie up (lol) two different targets with both the axe and bola

Overall: Hatchet is still my beloved <3

#

Did not notice how long the ramble was getting sorry ^^;

granite saddle
#

I don't think anyone would get mad at someone for rambling feedback of all things, so you're probably good

#

It's kind of the point

vagrant grotto
#

Regarding the Zealot’s durability: You mentioned you were surprised at how much damage the OS could soak, but that the Zealot still seemed squishy (even with Ultra buffs?). Could you elaborate a bit on those feelings? Just so I understand how they can coexist

#

Re: Fanatical Charge: Do you mean you felt that the Zealot itself needed immunity to engagement and reactions on the action? And/or that the immunity to reactions on Zeal didn’t feel as good?

#

On the Vulture, glad it felt solid! Unlucky that Zheng CP was in play, but thems the breaks I suppose lol. Glad Grapplescrapper felt flexible!

#

Glad you enjoyed the hatchet, too! I’ll consider the Axe approach for bola yeah, overall sounds like it wasn’t too out of line

placid glacier
ashen crown
placid glacier
# vagrant grotto Re: Fanatical Charge: Do you mean you felt that the Zealot itself needed immunit...

And no the immunity to reaction on zeal itself felt great- loved how it opened things up for the hatchet and Pyro-

I'm not saying that Zealot should also benefit from the immunity to engagement and reaction on zeal itself- but yes maybe having it on fanatical charge wouldn't be out of line

Again- could have just been me putting it out of position but I feel like having at least one tool in the arsenal for the zealot itself to slip out of engagement could help with its own staying power

ashen crown
placid glacier
#

oh also scaring my party with the burst 5 aura lol

vagrant grotto
#

… IF it wore off, lol, given they focused it down

placid glacier
#

I mean they focused it down because it made it so everything else could move with impunity I think lol

#

and/or "multiple structure bars- fuckin rush him"

#

but yeah it wore off when they figured out it was something that effected the opfor and not them

vagrant grotto
#

Very happy to hear that the “move with impunity” part was the right kind of mustard the Zealot needed

placid glacier
#

Very funny saying "no actually" to vanguard overwatch

#

If I did have a gripe tho it would be the effects on the players being a bit lacking? Mostly no one running invis builds but

vagrant grotto
#

That’s ok; end of the day the aura is supposed to make allied actions more potent anyway. I could have the aura apply shred or lock on but I think those would let artillery take too much benefit from the Zealot

placid glacier
#

Fair fair

#

Weird idea that probably wouldn't fit but- trait to cause lock on to reverse? (Consuming lock on inflicts difficulty instead of accuracy?)

ashen crown
vagrant grotto
#

… consuming lock-on on an ally causes difficulty? Definitely not something I’d have thought of but I don’t know if that lines up with Zealot’s ID

placid glacier
#

Yeah fair

#

Just a weird idea I had in passing-

muted blaze
#

Could work on a difficulty stacking support NPC

sudden cosmos
#

Lookin' at making a big spooky vulture for this weekend

#

and trying not to make too many Locked Tomb references along the way

vagrant grotto
#

It’s proven satisfyingly durable from my experience and playtest feedback

sudden cosmos
#

Currently thinking Elite Veteran with optionals being Trash to Treasure, Opportunistic Salvage, and Carcass Bunker

#

probably grapplescrapper for the vet optional, but I'm not sure yet

#

Also one of the BBEG lieutenant fight at the end of the campaign is currently me challenging myself to make 5 anomaly PPG NPCs for the opfor

vagrant grotto
#

So far OppSalvage seems niche and dependent on existing drones in the fight so it seems reasonable to have a couple extra features to compensate

placid glacier
#

Speaking of full anomaly enemy comps- I'll finally be running this encounter this week

#

Time to see how my party reacts to this

tame siren
#

Added a T2 Veteran Mercenary Capacitor to combat, replacing a Merc assault and a priest.

My players did not like the line 15 over shield gun, and given they were frequently bogged down with other CQB enemies, they struggled to engage it, while, due to the line 15 Arcing, it never struggle to put overshield on allies or hit multiple players.

Also, Quickening Bolt on a NPC with multiple activations is rude.

vagrant grotto
tame siren
#

They struggled to engage with the capacitor. The combination of speed, range and Arcing made stopping it giving out overshield excessively frustating

vagrant grotto
#

Okay, noted

#

How big was the map, if I may ask?

#

It’s interesting to hear this feedback since most of the critical feedback I get on the Capacitor is “it dies too quickly”

vagrant grotto
#

Sounds like “no” due to engagement issues

#

This feedback is again, fascinating, because I specifically gave Capacitor Arcing so that it could do its job even with the occasional LOS blocker, since it seemed to struggle otherwise

#

So this is something for me to chew on

sudden cosmos
#

Maybe single target and arcing? That way you get around the LOS blocking but aren't shoveling out as much overshield

#

I know it's quoting emperor but it sounds like higher tier emperors start getting problematic

tame siren
#

I'll have to double check, but I believe it was. 32x32 map, demolition sitrep. The maps was a battle inside a large mall, where one half was a large open food court with little cover, while the other half was a maze of storefronts, walkways, and maintenance tunnels.

The big issue, I think was that the group was on the clock to destroy the demolition targets, and had already bogged down fighting an elite Barricade and Elite sentinel.

vagrant grotto
#

Okay noted. I wanna keep the Line attack but may not keep the same OS values; I may nerf them to 2/3/4 since I’ve been hearing similar-ish concerns with other OS-granting abilities in PPG

#

Need to do some testing with/without arcing, I think

vagrant grotto
#

@tame siren because I forgot to say so earlier: thank you for your feedback! This was all helpful

viral bobcat
#

With the Capacitor's Reciprocity, is the OS it gains when it grants OS meant to stack? Or is it typical OS rules of take highest value?

tame siren
#

I assume it's not meant to stack

#

It would be horribly OP if it did

viral bobcat
#

That's what I would assume too, really, but I think the Emperor's stacks... but it gives a max, so.

#

In fact now that I look again at the Emperor the wording difference is pretty explicit.

ashen crown
#

Yeah the Capacitor may take a lot of inspiration from the Emperor, but it's very explicitly not an Emperor- at least not exaclty

vagrant grotto
#

Emperor explicitly says it stacks to override default Overshield behavior

south cypress
#

Are a Mesmerist's mirror images destroyed on any missed attack or just when an attack misses due to invisibility?

vagrant grotto
ashen crown
#

Hey Valk, as a Houserule, do you think it’d be worth it if Anomalies could also pick from Horror optionals, or would that be too much in your eyes?

vagrant grotto
#

Feel free to add Horror separately

#

I mostly just wanted Better Exotic

ashen crown
#

Fair, horror is just the optionals at the end of the day

vagrant grotto
#

Exactly

south cypress
#

If an Ultra Knight wins its Duel inside its Evergaol, is it just trapped there until it overheats?

vagrant grotto
#

It can probably dismiss it as a protocol

#

I should add that

south cypress
#

I'd imagine "when the duel ends" could be a good end condition rather than "when the knight is destroyed" since the latter is already a duel end condition

south cypress
#

Has anyone run a Wolfhound Missile + Opportunistic Salvage Ultra Vulture? An evil part of me likes the idea of being able to recharge and re-fire the Wolfhound the moment it detonates

placid glacier
#

lmao? no but I would need to try that

vagrant grotto
muted blaze
#

If I had an anomaly with doppelganger, doppelganging another anomaly...

#

🤔

placid glacier
#

Doppleganger + Remote Control

Mech Shellgame

vagrant grotto
#

Do that I guess

ashen crown
#

Wait misread

#

Yeah that’d get silly lol

muted blaze
#

"2 enemies appear, they look identical but you can't get their class and template"
"Yeah, they're identical as you scan. Both elite anomaly breachers."
"Lol shitass lmao you thought, this one was actually an anomaly veteran scout"

vagrant grotto
ashen crown
#

The way I’d rule it is the Doppelgänger copies the “true” form of the anomaly

#

Purely for the instance of “that ronin isn’t actually a ronin” “wait, then where’s the real ronin?”

vagrant grotto
#

Riiiiiight yeah

#

Fuck

muted blaze
#

Fun encounter idea

#

Here you're fighting 8 ronins

#

"Really Al? 8 ronins?"
"Yeah, in fact this ronin hits you with a snipers mark"

#

there are no ronins

warm cedar
ashen crown
vagrant grotto
#

When you free them they yell “they’re not me! THEYRE NOT ME”

#

And is incoherent otherwise

tame siren
#

Is that the improbably dense ball of Ronin?

potent violet
#

Half a combat down, my group may not be the best for playtesting but hey playtesting is also good for the outliers.

First combat of OWS with the Prism and so far it feels very much like a controller frame. The map has two choked points and dropping a wall on the left one and spawning a projection kinda of between the left one and my players, they have basically completely decided that route is impassable.

They also discovered round one the projection has resistance and it is now basically more of an obstacle as they have thrown damage it to the wind unless they have literally no other target.

As far as the amount of damage it’s inflicted directly, very little, but indirectly it has caused 18 damage alone with funneling with the seeder.

#

My players are also still kinda brutes so tech attacks aren’t something they do.

vagrant grotto
potent violet
#

It's definitely hard to get a good taste of testing with non-DPS guys cause their numbers don't go brrr

#

And like I said my players refuse to tech so I see you buffed the heat cap and it doesn't even matter cause the only heat it's taking is from it's weapon

vagrant grotto
potent violet
#

Not a problem

#

I mean they straight up don't use tech attacks. Like invading is out of the question

vagrant grotto
#

(Or reshared it if you did before)

potent violet
#

This is the base sitrep, the Bombard is replaced with a Prism so commander with Omniglass and Mobile.

Players are LL3 Atlas, Emperor, White Witch and Death's Head.

image.png
#

And the last status of the map, spoiler'd cause OWS

#

Actually let's try this one where I mark the prism lol

vagrant grotto
#

Hm

#

Alright, yeah then

potent violet
#

The Atlas is my more tactical player and has finally decided “alright let me go directly to this guy”

vagrant grotto
#

That sounds like the correct play for this team

#

Prism is not meant to endure a dive

potent violet
#

Oh the atlas is going to murder it and the Goliath has left I have no doubt

#

It fits that part of artillery very well

#

I almost wished it had the ability to spawn a projector and it wasn’t obviously which is the real one but it’s always pretty good at a distance, giving it a psuedo invisibility would be kinda nuts

#

I'll see how he does for the rest of combat, you mentioned some other mechs you wanna test and I can't recall

#

So

#

This'll be the next sitrep the players do

#

No full repair and they still have their core powers

#

I'll let ya swap whichever NPC with whatever you want

#

We can do up to 2 if you think certain ones really synergize

#

Not gonna post the whole map cause maybe copyright but it's OWS combat 2, pretty open area with lots of soft cover and destructible hard cover

vagrant grotto
#

Hmmm

vagrant grotto
#

If you choose Capacitor, nerf the OS granted by the Marathon Arquebus to 2/3/4

#

Ghost would be its own “latch drone”

#

Vulture could be neat if you’re willing to sacrifice systems/weapons instead of wrecks. Doesn’t look like much wreck potential this fight

potent violet
#

Vulture could be a flavorful additional. The next Beat includes a second where the players can do skill checks to ambush and salvage mechs to repair their own so having a vulture could make it seem a bit more fluid or like revenge.

#

Magpie is also just a pretty sick system

vagrant grotto
#

I did tweak Ghost a bit last patch (1.5) to generate a little more self heat but also handle more. If your team is having trouble with Prism, I don’t know how they’ll handle Ghost, but as long as they’re not averse to Ram and Grapple they might be ok

potent violet
#

I think in the 2 months of sessions, there has been 2 grapples and 0 rams.

vagrant grotto
#

Atlas feels like it should have a field day haha

#

Unrelated aside: I should rename Dandelion Cannon again

#

Should be Dandelion Phosphorus Cannon or something

potent violet
#

My players are big on "why would I spend PP on attack that don't do direct damage or heal" so i'm all for corrective learning. If the Ghost is best beat with CC, then it'll teach them to use the CC.

#

Phos does sounds like it would be better since it would hint more at the soft cover bit

#

When I first read flak I'd actually expect the terrain to be difficult for a turn

vagrant grotto
potent violet
#

"This time for sure" he says as he rewrites another section haha

#

Hey me too! I TELL them they should use tech attacks and non-skirmish moves but sometimes it feels like until they get hit by something that forces it they're likely to keep doing their old stuff.

#

Hell the Prism having resistance, which obviously directly counters damage, was enough for them to be like "okay we're not attacking this guy at all"

vagrant grotto
#

At the end of the day, Resistance is just double HP 🤷 if you gotta brute force it, brute force it

potent violet
#

Which is why the sitrep system is nice, double HP means eventually you'll kill them but what if it takes 4 turns and you got 3 until the rep is over?

#

Once again the Atlas is the only one who recognizes this, the seeder and scout can fall back but the prism by itself may be enough to just straight up win by holding the point if they keep avoiding it like they are

#

Also real quick, cause I may have ruled it wrong.

#

Scout applies the AOE invis and it hits the OG Prism, does the projector also get the invis

#

It doesn't double coin flip obviously but just curious if invis can be bypassed by hitting the projection

vagrant grotto
#

If yes: prism is invis overall

#

If no: prism gains no invis

#

Act like the prism is a “size 2” character, but with one of its spaces waaaaaaaay over there

potent violet
#

Looks like they have to be in the field but doesn't have anything about "at least partially"

#

So no invis sadge

vagrant grotto
#

Ask #rules-questions then I suppose

#

Couch it in “size 2” language

potent violet
#

Yeah cause I know they like to use the old "that's homebrew ask elsewhere"

vagrant grotto
#

Exactly

potent violet
vagrant grotto
#

Okay, prism is invis then

#

I don’t make the rules /joke

potent violet
#

What a nightmare hell yeah

muted blaze
# potent violet

"Partially invisible" 💀

BRB gonna toss a coin equal to the number of spaces that is inside the invisible zone. Then count the number of spaces outside the invisible zone as automatically getting tails hit. Then take the average of all the coin flips and see if the invis goes through or not

vagrant grotto
#

But lancer usually doesn’t get that granular

vagrant grotto
#

alright so, I am realizing that I actually have VERY LITTLE data on all the various Drones and Deployables in PPG

#

I know Kai has standardized some of his Rebake drones to be 5/8/10 HP, and others like Bombard's drone to have like, 10/15/20 (and Hound missiles with 10/12/14)

#

Meanwhile I'm over here in PPG with 5 HP per tier scaling wondering if I'm doing something wrong lol

#

so, if anyone has used any drone/deployable optionals I gladly welcome feedback on them

#

This includes

  • Capacitor Amplifier Drone
  • Knight Hero's Banner & Evergaol
  • Napalm's Firefly Drone
  • Occultist's Call From Below (and FLOCK Drones, sure, just HP specifically)
  • Prism Omniglass Barrier
  • Vulture Carcass Bunker
vagrant grotto
#

Right now I'm leaning towards 5/8/10 for Amp Drone and Firefly Drone, 15/20/25 for Knight's deployables and Carcass Bunker, 10/15/20 for Omniglass Barrier, and leaving Occultist as-is (5 HP Flocks, 20/25/30 HP Moloch)

hollow tangle
#

some more thoughts about overcharge as i near the end of my campaign

#

the change from shifting overcharge from a proactive to reactive mechanic is interesting, and definately encourages players to use other means to build into nuccav and other DZ-focused builds

#

but i dont think i quite enjoy the shift to a reactive mechanic, since it essentially increases the amount of reactive mechanics that you come pre-packaged with

#

generally im fine with brace being one of the big starter reactive elements of your character at LL0, since overwatch is like a "build into this if you want" sorta thing and is signposted as such

#

but overcharge creating a more prominent reactive element to gameplay invites a texture to lancer's gameplay that feels.....awkward

#

all of this is to say that i enjoy the changes to the game's design that the overcharge change does, but the way in which its executed definately left me wanting for a more robust solution

vagrant grotto
placid glacier
#

hey does forced obsolescence remove loading too? @vagrant grotto

vagrant grotto
ashen crown
#

Forced Obsolescence removes tags?

placid glacier
#

cool just checking

#

CPR player maniacally laughed after I maniacally laughed

vagrant grotto
#

lol

#

it's Anomaly's choice so yeah

placid glacier
#

@vagrant grotto does autostab get turned off by forced obselecene? sorry for all the @s

#

ok sorry yeah nevermind yeah pretty sure not-

vagrant grotto
#

No worries, you’re good

vagrant grotto
#

It’s a modification, much like how an Integrated Mount categorizes them

placid glacier
#

oh interesting- noted for next time

placid glacier
#

anyway I have feedback again :)

placid glacier
# 
OPFOR

Engineer [K] Ultra [K] Puppeteer Anomaly - (Grind Maniple, Siege Shield, Deadly Minions, Memento Culpa, Forced Obsolescence)
Hive [K] RPV Anomaly - (Command Override, Dust and Echos)
Support [K] Elite RPV Anomaly - (Realm Warp)
Bombard [K] Veteran [K] - (Self Destruct, Local Climate)

Grunt Archer
Grunt Hornet
Grunt Assassin
Grunt Pyro

Players (LL3)

Sherman
Minotaur
Flight Type Nelson
Metalmark
Raleigh```

Engineer: The setpiece of this encounter, will focus on the Anomaly stuff

- Since it was mostly a backline nuisance Memento wasn't used until the end but it *did* stop the Mino and Nelson from beating the shit out of it in the last turn :) [and also reactor stressed the Mino lol]
- Much more scene defining optional as I popped it on the CPR Raliegh very early and after the initial shock the player quickly realized- all tags meant *no loading* so there were *some* CPR crimes but ordinance sure did curtail it way more than the difficulty

Hive: This thing caused my players to think more in death than in life lmao. They were *terrified* of this thing hopping into a random body to cause problems again so locked the fuck in and destroyed all the wrecks around the ghost. They actually hard played around that thing which was very funny

Support: Was a very fun mindfuck teleporting the Metalmark across the map and the "go into the fog" button made it so that all the engineer's turrets target switched from being split between the Metalmark and Minotaur to being on *just* the Minotaur, very fun tactical considerations there 

Bombard: I have the least to say about this one- but it *did* still dissuade my close-range Nelson player from running up and shotgunning it in the face for the entire time it was on the field
vagrant grotto
# placid glacier ```a OPFOR Engineer [K] Ultra [K] Puppeteer Anomaly - (Grind Maniple, Siege Shi...

Thank you for the feedback! I have some follow up questions/comments:

  • Was there an objective/sitrep for this encounter? Or just boss fight?
  • How did players feel about Hive’s Dust and Echoes? Like in terms of how fair it felt
  • Did the Realm Warp teleport the metalmark, or just the ground they stood on? The first option is intended to only move objects and terrain. Sounds like it had some utility regardless; how did players specifically feel about it?
  • How does Realm Warp feel at its current action cost?
  • Which environmental effect did you pick for Bombard’s Local Climate?

It looks like the players were stacked with Strikers/artillery. Overall, how was the OpFor received by the players?

sudden cosmos
#

Vulture fight update: sunzi banished it 44 spaces away. became immediately irrelevant

vagrant grotto
#

Sunzi breaks everything, instance #689844

placid glacier
# vagrant grotto Thank you for the feedback! I have some follow up questions/comments: - Was ther...

Didn't get full party feedback but

  • No objective, was a straight boss fight beat down
  • Players were really engaged with playing around Dust and Echos and the wrecks scattered around to deny the hive a respawn
  • yeah realm warp moved the metalmark too- so that is my mistake in running it but the player I warped thought it was cool
  • at its current cost- feels a bit easy to toss in as a "I don't have much else to do- fuck it" button on a Support, but it would probably feel different on something with more to do with its actions like an Operator or Striker. Full action could be a change made- alternatively just dropping range on where you can place the burst down to 15?
  • the environmental effect I chose was "Extreme Heat"- why particularly effective it was to dissuade the Nelson from going in and shotgunning it

Overall- the OPFOR was received well and they enjoyed the challenge of the "final" boss fight of this chapter of my campaign

vagrant grotto
#

Great thank you!

placid glacier
#

👍 always love working with Prototype Pattern Group stuff, I'm glad I can help with playtesting!

sudden cosmos
#

I should add it didn't actually become immediately irrelevant.

vagrant grotto
#

Ah thank goodness

sudden cosmos
#

I used the vomit ability to create a soft cover field that I then used to hide so Sunzi wouldn't see it at SoT

#

But then it got hit by a warp grenade to get it out of the field, and a warp rifle to then send it 44 spaces away

#

so it hid, then got banished into being irrelevant

vagrant grotto
#

Oh joy

#

Next optional houserule in PPG will be “ban Sunzi” lol

granite saddle
#

I'm surprised you even have 44 spaces to send someone across, let alone how you manage to teleport someone that far away at once.

vagrant grotto
#

Beeg map

#

Couldn’t be me tbf

inland pilot
#

i still think it should be valid to destroy blink anchors tbh

#

that or force a hostile teleport to be a save

#

thats really just what the sunzi is lacking, counterplay

vagrant grotto
#

Oh I agree lol. Though these days I’m closer to just saying “ban the long rim licenses”

inland pilot
#

i'm definitely feeling it myself tbh

#

which i hate, to be fair, because the content in it is fun and part of my idiot brain is like "banning a frame is just admitting you're not a good enough gm to work around it" but like

#

fuuuuuck

#

all i know for certain is once this OWS campaign is done i'm taking a long GM break

vagrant grotto
#

“I should not have to work around player choices; I should be able to simply present the challenge” is my mantra

inland pilot
#

yeah, for real

#

i already reworked JK1 after some things cropped up

#

and sunzi is next on my shit list frankly

vagrant grotto
#

I’m slowly storing the energy to take my red pen to long Rim yeah

#

Sunzi will likely be gutted, but that’s okay because it has huge redundant guts

inland pilot
#

lich might win a spot depending on how things go but i'll admit two scenes in and i'm not enjoying fighting a ace 3, flicker field, singularity motivator lich

vagrant grotto
#

I don’t know where to start with Lich but I know it makes me go “hm. Don’t like that” sometimes

inland pilot
#

out of the entire long rim roster its probably the most high-low mech

#

hell, the whole first party roster

#

on paper it works but then you do the lancer thing and add layers to it and suddenly it compounds

#

ultimately i think i'm just exhausted in general and trying not to like, i 'unno, take out that frustration needlessly on either my players nor at the game until i get a period to analyze and reset

inland pilot
vagrant grotto
#

I just know that for all the cool terrain tech in long rim there’s a lot of fiddly free action reaction action-economy-breaking stuff that I

inland pilot
#

i just wanna be able to provide a meaningful challenge without having to reach for the "explicitly counters X" buttons

#

i'm still on the fence on if i should bring a sniper next scene or not

#

simply because i cannot fight this balor

vagrant grotto
#

And damn, yeah I’m sorry

inland pilot
#

took over 100 damage in a scene and didn't structure lmao

#

without core

#

which i think is the other reason i'm anxious

#

only one player popped core in the first scene, so thats 5 core powers still waiting

#

either way i suppose we'll see

granite saddle
#

for me it's mostly Lich, and mostly the frame. Granted, never had a sunzi against me (or even much of one with). But the Lich in itself, man. Even as a player I try to sway my fellow players away from it yeah.

inland pilot
#

the thing is, i know how to counterplay lich

#

the problem is, so does the lich player

#

really all i'd need to do is grapple it but i can't really do that with invisible, which means i need to dedicate several NPC turns to pick it apart

#

so really the choice is "do that and take too much of my time doing so" or "ignore the two players i can't kill and kill the others i can instead" which feels ... off, i suppose

#

... either way, very offtopic i realise now

granite saddle
#

Yeah, even after thinking on it the Lich is the only frame to have really given me that much of an averse reaction, even counting the Calendula (sunzi excluded for lack of encountering one). Even the Empaakai is an easy fix for me, CP should just be one of iku's hand or infusors any given turn.
edit : that and fucking scorpion

granite saddle
sudden cosmos
#

I will say the "guess I gotta just ignore this PC because I can't do anything to them" design is rather tiresome to play into from a GM perspective

#

See: the 18 e defense lich equipped with scorpion

granite saddle
#

God fucking scorpion

#

no

#

just no

vagrant grotto
#

Yeah no “just ignore them” is almost never a real solution

granite saddle
vagrant grotto
#

Anyway

granite saddle
#

yeah oops

#

soz

vagrant grotto
#

All good

#

If my NPC or homebrew design takes me down those roads, send me feedback so I can address it lol

#

But yeah, I think at some point I’ll be making some Sunzi house rules, aka the Ranger of Lancer, to make it more interactive

There’s a reason I made the Reality Anchor optional target some Teleport shenanigans

tepid arch
#

Just do what I do, and try and make alt frames for all your problem licenses, so you can ban the base frame (which tends to be where the issues lie) but still have the license fully available. 😛

#

Except I haven't been able to make a satisfactory alt for the Gorgon, yet, stupid frame.

vagrant grotto
#

I basically do do that lol, I just name them “Tokugawa [Valk]” hahahaha

tepid arch
#

Hah, fair!

south cypress
vagrant grotto
south cypress
#

A Veteran Brigand should be able to cancel Jury Rigged by picking the same stat with Veterancy, right?

vagrant grotto
#

Yes

south cypress
vagrant grotto
#

Yeah probably!

#

My statement was kinda reductive, but ultimately I’d want to take aim at

  • Literally the entire Sunzi kit
  • Caliban free movement
  • Zheng’s core passive and active
  • JK1’s free movement
  • Buffing Atlas
  • Buffing Kobold
  • Swap Purifying Code and Seismic Ripper
  • I don’t know what but something to address Lich and maybe simplify the L3 tools
#

But yeah if I have ^ this ^ many problems with something, I’m more inclined to consider the nuclear ban (if it reaches the point where I won’t tolerate it anymore)

ashen crown
tame siren
vagrant grotto
# tame siren That's... a lot. Having GMed for Caliban, I don't really see the problem with ...

Again this was a really brief overview that doesn’t really catch the nuances

But to dig into Caliban, I’ve seen Calibans with ultramaxed forced movement just zoom all over the map, to the point where I gotta go “okay, that’s enough.” Perhaps it’s more an issue with free action economy options in Lancer that can enable all that movement? But mostly the goal would be to reduce a bunch of fiddly movement options down to something 1/round tops.

And as for its slow speed (and this goes for Zheng too): Slow base speed is not an excuse for spammable movement options. I’d rather they have speed 4 and a 1/round movement option than a “fake speed 3” where they zoom around doing a combo for several minutes every turn

#

But anyway, that’s not PPG and never will be

#

That’s just my house rule stuff

ashen crown
# vagrant grotto Again this was a really brief overview that doesn’t really catch the nuances Bu...

having played one of these Calibans in your playtest game, I will say that when trying to move around the map, I had to do a lot of tactical thinking and suboptimal decisions in order to move around as crazily as I did. And because Pursue Prey is always towards the force moved target it oftentimes made my movement patterns awkward and hard to handle. It was a fun challenge, but it was still a challenge. I gave up a lot of my striking in order to move to the frontline to have the opportunity to bash enemies around the way I did, and getting that bonus movement wasn't really "free" in that I had to pick less damaging or control capable options to do it.

#

To each their own but if that game helped cement that opinion I wanted to give my side of the story. If you still think Pursue Prey should be nerfed in some house rules, all the power to you.

placid glacier
#

Having been on the receiving end of it: man if I was in a worse mood Zheng core would have made me reconsider being a gm

ashen crown
placid glacier
#

I guess I can never utilize puppeters, vultures, or any hiding behind wreck shenanigans :shurg:

ashen crown
#

Tbh if the Zheng couldn't regain their Core Power Charges I think it could still be really strong

muted blaze
#

So ive only played with 2 calibans in games ive been in (one being asquared in the playtest)... it doesnt feel right to nerf a frame because some people have built it well and played it well at the top of the skill ceiling, especially since ive seen other mechs perform in similar ways

#

Also during the playtest... I'm unsure how effective the caliban would have been without a homebrew GMS item

vagrant grotto
vagrant grotto
#

Hell this all isn’t so much about nerfing as much as it’s about making a lateral change

#

Something just as potent that doesn’t require huge amounts of micromanagement

granite saddle
#

Knockback X (self)

vagrant grotto
#

I promise I’m not just knee jerking here lol

muted blaze
#

Nerfng ambitious players /j

vagrant grotto
#

I know that’s a joke but legit I want them to get similar results with less effort on the Caliban

placid glacier
#

Yeah def felt the "Holy shit how are you that fast" with the Zheng too

muted blaze
#

Counter to Zheng core and JK

#

empty map

granite saddle
#

"actually everything here is made up of individual size 1/2 segments. Die."

#

"Yes they have 40 HP each"

vagrant grotto
ashen crown
#

Remember to Slow your Zhengs

#

I know it’s not always possible but it’s good to keep in mind

placid glacier
#

fair

vagrant grotto
#

I am of the opinion that I should not have to Slow my Zhengs nor flatten the map for them to have manageable turns

ashen crown
#

This is the advice to those who don’t wanna rework the Zheng but fair

placid glacier
#

you've seen infinitely dense ball of ronins now get ready for the infinitely dense ball of slingers

ashen crown
#

A Ship Torrent would be very fun

ashen crown
#

Arbitrarily assigning PPG NPC classes to manufacturers because I like flavorful NPC comps so this is a helpful exercise to me and perhaps a good reference for y’all:
IPS-N

  • Hatchet
  • Knight
  • Occultist
  • Vulture
    SSC
  • Anchor
  • Capacitor
  • Ghost
  • Hatchet
  • Prism
    HORUS
  • Ghost
  • Mesmerist
  • Occultist
  • Torrent
  • Zealot
    HA
  • Anchor
  • Napalm
    RKF
  • Knight
  • Mesmerist
  • Zealot
  • EDIT: Ghost (I wanted to put it on but forgor)
#

that was a literal instant thumbs up goddamn

vagrant grotto
#

I get thread notifications, what of it

#

Occultist in IPS-N is a take I hadn’t considered but I can see it

ashen crown
#

It’s mainly cause of Lancaster and Kidd, specifically sacrificing drones for Overshield

ashen crown
vagrant grotto
#

Hahaha

#

Also, damn, looks like it’s obvious who my favorite faction is

ashen crown
#

HORUS and SSC are tied in terms of volume so I can only tell HA is your least favorite

vagrant grotto
#

Tbf HA has great representation in the CRB

ashen crown
#

You right

vagrant grotto
#

Pyro, Scourer, Seeder, Aegis is an easy comp

ashen crown
#

I can see an argument for Napalm for IPS-N tbh but I only put placements I have strong feelings on in the list- any manufacturer can field any NPC classes with the right context after all

vagrant grotto
#

Of course of course

placid glacier
#

honestly with anomaly- it would not be hard to justify Hatchet going into Horus too

vagrant grotto
#

RKF could potentially also field Torrents if they have nanite stuff leftover from the Balors and stuff

ashen crown
ashen crown
muted blaze
#

I could see Capacitor in RKF because the emperor came out in the RKF book 😛

static kernel
#

anyway i would put Knight under HA, just cause 'high-risk melee combatant' has historically been a HA specialty

placid glacier
#

made an HUC Vulture for my Wallflower Game

vulture.png
placid glacier
ashen crown
# muted blaze I could see Capacitor in RKF because the emperor came out in the RKF book 😛

Good point- also good point @static kernel . I was considering the latter but ultimately didn't because HA's explicit melees (aka has a Melee Weapon in the license) consist of Tokugawa and Enkidu, and technically Gilgamesh too. Didn't fit the Knight image in my head but since you bring it up I can see it.

As for Capacitor, the flavor does feel slightly off, but an Archer that gives its companions shields is a pretty RKF thing so who am I to deny?

#

Oh wait I forgot Ghost for RKF- OOPS

muted blaze
#

Hmmm

#

Grunt anomaly operator with telefrag and nothing else

#

They won't know what hit them

vagrant grotto
#

literally, lol

ashen crown
vagrant grotto
#

Beeftime let me add Prototype Pattern Groups to the Community LCP listing 🥳

vagrant grotto
#

Major takeaways from tonight’s game:

  • Occultist can stand to have slightly less bulk given the AOE Overshield it can provide itself
  • FLOCK Drones are surprisingly durable with 5 HP, and it may be better to give them with 1 HP instead to allow some more counterplay, akin to Kai’s Engineer rebake drones
  • overcharge changes feel pretty damn bad on Save Effect controllers… but concern over whether lancer save effects are really balanced to allow frequent rerolls in the first place
  • Lift/drag rules on a longer escort map = more quick action “taxes” over the course of the combat (I’m okay with this)
#

Unfortunately only one fight was had, so nobody got to see the fun times I had in store in the second sitrep… sadcowboy

muted blaze
#

Availability is much more prevailant now so I will probably make more cool builds and enjoy playtests >:D

#

I think next time, I have a plan... Might suck it up and go Gilgamesh striker

#

I wanna see what nuc cav + thermal blade can shit out with your exposed rules

vagrant grotto
#

Me too frankly

#

I hope you can make the next game lol, I have a feeling

muted blaze
#

Like, on an exposed target

#

What do you mean by that

#

What do you mean by that Valk

vagrant grotto
muted blaze
#

Ok, my mind went to "I hope you can make the next game" as If I could attend it in the first place

#

And like, you had some gift of prophecy that I wouldn't be able to make it

vagrant grotto
#

lol no

muted blaze
vagrant grotto
#

But I’m anticipating your reaction if you did play hehehehe

muted blaze
#

GGod damn

#

I need to make it now

#

||It's an anomaly isn't it||

vagrant grotto
#

Hehehehehehe

muted blaze
#

Alsoooooooo

vagrant grotto
muted blaze
#

Makingg all the size half terrain Difficult terrain was interesting

vagrant grotto
muted blaze
vagrant grotto
muted blaze
#

Like... 1 heat to suffer nothing from a structure check

#

Then 1d3 heat

vagrant grotto
#

Was just thinking about it for support perspectives I guess

muted blaze
#

I have 13 heatcap... I'd probably take 1d6+4 heat off the bat and call that not a downside. As you mentioned, Dazed vs System trauma is very potent of Economy now or Later economy. Heat is manageable, it's a downside when I go over the limit, but one that a stabilise when I want will solve

vagrant grotto
#

I find myself seriously considering Finaljas’s proposition of Overcharge to Lock On/Bolster/Boost alongside Rerolls

muted blaze
ashen crown
#

Hmmm.... IGF spoilers ||is there a good place in chapter 5 to put a Vulture you think?||

muted blaze
#

Make overcharge for attack roll rerolls. Not checks or saves OR like... The free action from the OSR comp con exotic

muted blaze
ashen crown
#

Thought I'd check, that's what I thought

#

||JUst Zealot it'll be for now||

muted blaze
#

||Like, combat 2 I think so. Because that's 3 lanes of approach they can jump over||

#

||Cos hover||

ashen crown
#

||No real room for Knights in this chapter due to defender and support overflow but also not really being very substitutable||

vagrant grotto
muted blaze
#

IDK

ashen crown
#

Yeah idk about that one chief

vagrant grotto
#

I mean like I’ll respect the energy

muted blaze
#

Honestly... kinda...

#

Like, taking a hull cracker and if I failed just being able to go "lol I don't care" for like, not too much heat feels too... easy

#

Comparingg it to other tools such as hero points or Dnd inspiration are designed around it AND saves can equal much gnarlier stuff than in Lancer

vagrant grotto
muted blaze
#

We both Overcharge for nothing to happen?

vagrant grotto
#

Yes

vagrant grotto
#

You don’t get Permanently Petrified in Lancer

muted blaze
#

Yeah I shouldn't compare it to DnD lol

#

I was thinkingg the same thing

ashen crown
#

See the real big challenge I see with this overcharge system is finding a way to make a reroll feel like it has as much oomf as an extra action...

muted blaze
#

Yeah that...

vagrant grotto
#

I am happy not giving it oomf

ashen crown
#

Hm, what if instead of a reroll

#

Range extension?

vagrant grotto
#

Absolutely not

ashen crown
#

Valid

vagrant grotto
#

Plus like, I have Overcharge on a more forgiving repair schedule now

#

The point was it had way too much oomf, that’s why I’m dialing it back

ashen crown
vagrant grotto
#

I will never win that fight and I accept that truth

#

Players want their extra action combo blorbos

muted blaze
#

Yeah

#

AAAAH

#

It's hard

#

I NEED MORE MINES ON THE FIELD

ashen crown
#

Fair nuff fair nuff

muted blaze
#

EVERYTHING COULD BE FIXED WITH ANOTHER LAND MINE

vagrant grotto
#

I’m willing to test “inflict disadvantage on saves with overcharge”

#

I don’t know you throw the grenade real good

muted blaze
#

Blink grenades 😞 🫸
Blink mines 😎 👉

vagrant grotto
#

You planted that mine super good

muted blaze
#

Worth givingg annother shot yea

#

One of the reasons I wanna play a striker is so that I can play the other side

vagrant grotto
#

I hate it since it corrupts the pure diegetic nature of Overcharge, but it may be worth sacrificing that for gamefeel

#

“What is an action point, 4e?” “Don’t worry about it”

#

“What is an overcharge, Lancer?” “Your mech goes into overdrive and does more shit”

muted blaze
#

I like overchargge when it's LL0-1

#

When people have 6-8 heat cap and they can't just ggo wild with overcharges

vagrant grotto
#

If overcharge was 1/scene like 4e, maybe

muted blaze
#

I was thinking the same thing

vagrant grotto
#

And tied to Not Heat

muted blaze
#

Initiative

vagrant grotto
#

Still runs the issue of “do you use your initiative this turn” until it’s used

#

But hey it solves the heatmaxxer problem

ashen crown
#

I think the way Overcharge in PPG right now is probably the best it's gonna be for all parties involved and it's simply a matter of "if you enjoy it use it, if you don't don't." I can't see much else that could be done to improve it without fundamentally changing what it's intended to be

#

There may be some extra approach to the problem but I can't see it

#

With specifically dice rolls I can't see what else you could reroll and any other bonuses or penalties are just... no. And going outside of the reroll category is likely to have very dangerous ripple effects

#

If you do plan on adding your custom sitreps to PPG, having specific overdrive interactions with them could be fun tho

#

Wait

#

No wait contested checks- nevermind I rescind

vagrant grotto
#

Honestly Overcharge rerolls play great with contested checks

ashen crown
#

Yeah that I forgot about those lol

vagrant grotto
#

Skill checks and the like that I’ve been utilizing

#

It’s chefkiss

ashen crown
#

By the way do you happen to have a consolidated doc or something with your sitrep modifications?

vagrant grotto
#

I do not, really

ashen crown
#

ctrl+F it is then

vagrant grotto
#

I have my house rules docs but ehhhhhh they’re out of date

muted blaze
#

The git?

vagrant grotto
#

Yeah

muted blaze
#

I have it open on my second monitor so I can tab to it duringg ur playtests

inland pilot
#

Oh speaking of Sitrep modifications

vagrant grotto
#

They don’t reflect my current take on sitreps

#

But they’re a little more enjoyable from a gamist perspective imo

muted blaze
#

<- (All opinions are laced with salt that a demolisher rerolled a save)

I think making it rerolls are cool... But I honestly think it shouldn't be on saves... And IDK if I Like that... I don't feel that if I failed any of those hull saves from like... The Demo or Cataphract... I feel if I failed either of those I deserve to eat the shit from them. IT feels like a get out of jail free card for a too cheap price if I just don't need rerolls

ashen crown
#

I like both yours and Finaljas' sitrep modifications- call me old fashioned but sometimes I appreciate the good old "hold down a zone" approach. I don't think I'll ever fully replace one sitrep method with another tbh, for me it always feels very narrative contextual which feels most appropriate and narrative is what I prioritize with a sitrep. That includes CRB sitreps not holding dominance though

vagrant grotto
#

Sitreps should reflect the “realities” of the game setting

#

If it actually makes sense that standing around passively increments a counter, then sure use that

ashen crown
#

One of the most iconic holdouts I've ever seen is purely based around a timer ticking down, and adding some active way to advance the timer manually would ruin it- so yeah mixing and matching tools is the best way

muted blaze
#

In fact... IDK, more I think of it... I Like the concept of overcharge rerolls if it's like. Crack shot, lock on, stunned target... Rolls a 4, sure reroll that for 1d3 heat or whatever you deserve it, but one thing I find a lot when people complain about dice luck and stuff is how are you using accuracy? Like if shooting an assassin with a higher than average evasion and miss, it feels a bit cheap to go "yeah but I want to hit"

vagrant grotto
muted blaze
#

Totally real

#

I'm just coping

vagrant grotto
#

The thing to consider too is that if it’s overheated, it can’t overcharge to reroll anymore either

muted blaze
#

Take everything I'm saying with a ggrain of salt lmao, I shouldn't be awake

vagrant grotto
#

It’s all good

#

I understand where you’re coming from

#

<- plays a PF2E save based spellcaster

muted blaze
#

In the DND campaign I'm playing. I'm a wizard, 7th level spells... Forgot the level, I just don't pick up save or suck spells

#

They're just not worth the dissapointment

#

Gimme the guaranteed outcomes

inland pilot
#

@vagrant grotto hope the ping isn't obnoxious but we've had about 4 rounds of Control using the rulings you cooked up, sitting currently at a 7 Hostile/ 5 Allied score on a first-to-12 match, so about halfway there

Its been long enough that I can probably confidently say: yeah, no, its been working out really well. It's made engaging with and contesting points a lot more interesting, both in terms of interacting with the opposition but also in working together as a team. Contested checks just work (and it made players use Bolster! imagine that!)

The slight modification I did of the Control points being a Zone vs a Object one needs to be adjacent to hasn't rocked the boat too much - it did make contesting with multiple chars easier (though not necessarily, actually contesting) with meant having more characters in one point made it easier to contest, but that didn't end up feeling too unnaturally and its not like it wasn't costing infinite actions to keep trying it anyway. It also, evidently, makes controlling the points harder too - need more knockback to push people out, so it went both ways

vagrant grotto
#

Mathfinder gives a good breakdown that AOE save spells are better than single targets

vagrant grotto
ashen crown
#

What's the advised math for the "needed points to win for Valk COntrols" again?

inland pilot
#

2xplayers

#

which so far has been also working out

#

even if "first to 12" is a treat

ashen crown
#

I plan on using 4 control objects for the one I'm running because it meshes with the map better and I like having more excuses to split the team, so I may up that to 2.5xplayers

vagrant grotto
ashen crown
#

Reminder- if one side takes a control point, does it disqualify the other side from also taking that control point in the same round or is it free game?

vagrant grotto
inland pilot
#

aye, its 1/round/objective/side

ashen crown
#

Gotcha gotcha, couldn't recall which it was so happy to know

vagrant grotto
#

If you make it only 1/time then probably halve the points to win

muted blaze
#

Vaaaalk... Random question about this stuff

#

How would you do Recon?

vagrant grotto
#

Answer: daily double

#

Recon would be spliced

#

Use a smaller Point Clock for the first half and then once it’s filled, transition to the second objective whatever it is

#

“Quick action = search a zone” is fine IMO, then just transition to the actual objective (escort, control, crank-holdout)

ashen crown
#

Make it a sitrep modifier instead of a full sitrep, understood

vagrant grotto
#

But yeah ideally Recon wouldn’t be “recon” so to speak, it would be “search” and “secondary” mini objectives spliced together

#

AnatoleSerial has been talking about flexible combats and objectives lately and I think they’re onto something

muted blaze
#

OOOH

vagrant grotto
#

They’re doing what I have been wanting to do

muted blaze
#

Recon extraction Hybrid

vagrant grotto
#

It’s good, it works, it’s thematic

empty arrow
#

I'm been putting together an Anomaly-focused opfor and after the playtest today I'm pretty sure Occultist is the missing piece I'm looking for. Going to be throwing around a bunch of grunts w/ an elite Puppeteer already, so Chaff and Scapegoat are going to be getting a lot of value.

After what we talked about, do you have any first thoughts on anything you might change about the Occultist? I'm considering dropping the hp by ~5 and the drone hp to 1 then up the overshield by 2, but if there's a range on your mind then I'm all ears for stress testing it.

(there's probably a better way to share an opfor than this screencap that i do not know)

firefox_2025-05-31_23-16-39.png