#Prototype Pattern Groups

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granite saddle
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If so, it's basically the same, but just different enough that it's slightly better. I don't feel particularly strongly about it, but it is an improvement.

vagrant grotto
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Okay that’s a Unicode thing, it was supposed to be Range

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Yes still the one in the pdf

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And yeah it’s literally just slightly changing the wording so it’s clearer what’s being “deployed”

granite saddle
granite saddle
vagrant grotto
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Easy enough

static kernel
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@vagrant grotto btw, quick question -- is the soft cover zone from Flock Drones meant to be the type you can hide inside or not?

vagrant grotto
granite saddle
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Hmm.
So I know what kind of sitrep I'll need, but I have no clue what kinda OpFor I want.

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any combos or stuff like that you'd want tried out ?

vagrant grotto
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In terms of stuff I’m actively looking for feedback on:

  • Prism
  • Torrent
  • Mesmerist Narcissus Override
  • Hatchet’s “next turn Cleaving Retrieval”
granite saddle
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alright, I'll see what I can cook up

vagrant grotto
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I already know v1.1 Napalm optionals have some bugs I’m fixing in v1.2, so I’m actively not looking for feedback there

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Vulture and Occultist also have refinements made that I’ll release in 1.2; Prism and Torrent are thus my highest priorities

granite saddle
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yeah and both of those are fairly potent in the context of "moving an objective" based sitreps, so why not ?

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I think I'll try multi-torrent + big Prism

granite saddle
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I want to use all the cool shit, but fear for my life !

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what veteran trait will be the answer to my problems I wonder...

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Also : I dont see Drown in nanites being very useful, and as such want to use it to see for myself. Would you encourage that, or do you prefer I take something more oppressive like Roil to stress-test what multiple Torrents at the same time is like ?

vagrant grotto
granite saddle
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nice

vagrant grotto
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Ideally every optional would get tested on all my NPCs but sometimes folks just don’t pick em

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Ozymandias Protocol for Mesmerist was one of those so it got the axe

granite saddle
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When it moves with its weapons, does the torrent need to be entirely in the template or only partially ?

vagrant grotto
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Partially

granite saddle
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nice

vagrant grotto
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However warp grenade works

granite saddle
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I see

vagrant grotto
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Cone 3 and burst 1 are too hard for size 2 to fit completely in anyway

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Esp in Squareland

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Smh at T shaped cone 3s in square, in my day 15’ cones covered 7 squares

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But yes, Drown in Nanites is something I think is questionable on the Torrent when it thrives on moving enemies and itself around

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There’s some deliberate antisynergy and I’m not sure i wanna keep it

granite saddle
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Re: big prism; Veteran commander or Elite veteran ? or Elite commander ?

vagrant grotto
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Your call

granite saddle
granite saddle
placid glacier
vagrant grotto
placid glacier
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cool I'll say how it goes 👍

vagrant grotto
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Veteran and commander are Fine, it’s the Extra Turns that I’m worried about

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Either letting next turn stuff proc too soon or end too early, that’s my concern

granite saddle
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mhm, on it

vagrant grotto
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Like Hatchet cleaving retrieval or Prism’s glitter field optional (respectively)

granite saddle
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oh, so you'd like to see that one ?

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went with the uninspired choice of the double projection, so this works

vagrant grotto
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Again ill take whatever

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Double projection has been concerning for me for “is this too much overhead and/or too vulnerable”

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But also, I have zero playtesting whatsoever with prism and torrent base kits

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So like, yeah. Gimme anything

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My bar is at the floor right now

granite saddle
placid glacier
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I just realized that I have been using an older version of Prototype Pattern Groups for a while- I've picked up the most recent now but just to check it's this version of cleaving you want to check right?

image.png
granite saddle
vagrant grotto
placid glacier
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👍

vagrant grotto
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@granite saddle Ah, another litmus test for me is “is the base kit ‘complete’” as well as “do players feel obligated to prioritize this NPC or like they can outright ignore it? If no to both, test passes”

granite saddle
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For both of these, everything I take feels like extra shit I'm putting on

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It's not a "I need to take this or this NPC is worthless" situation.

vagrant grotto
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Good

granite saddle
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And I feel like with how annoying the torrent is and the los limitations of the prism, they're not gonna be in "ignore" territory either, but that remains to be seen.

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Annoying in the same way as the hornet I should add, ie "it's the point"

vagrant grotto
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If I end up with an Avenger situation (must die first or we lose), I’ve fucked up

If I end up with a Bastion situation (not a threat worth respecting), I’ve also fucked up

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Defenders aren’t doing their job if everyone is focusing them first without regards to the rest of the board, because half of being a defender is being an innately undesirable target

granite saddle
vagrant grotto
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(I single out defenders here because some folks will claim that drawing that universally attention is meeting criteria for defense. I throughly disagree with that assertion)

vagrant grotto
granite saddle
vagrant grotto
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It must be threatening but not overwhelmingly so

granite saddle
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Oh yeah I see

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Right yes. Words. Use 'em. Love 'em.

vagrant grotto
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This is best delivered with Taunts

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Or tauntlike effects

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Memetic magnetism, compelled duel

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I’ll be real, I do worry that anchor and Prism go too hard on the “can’t be targeted” benefits

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But mostly because I wanted to start with a hard taunt and see what happened

granite saddle
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If it's too much, I'll see that quite easily

summer jay
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I've not tested the change for the tokugawa but I would like to point out something:

I see that it could make melee build more interesting in comparaison to artillery build however, I don't see how it will help more focussed CQB build (half of the weapon of this licence are after all) to be more viable because it will be as much nerfed. CQB build put themself at the same distance than melee one (even more because they don't gain the increase threat and vanguard ask to be very close to see benefit) and don't have the bonus damage for it despite the risk being taken. CQB tokugawa will most likely overshadow by artillery tokugawa (safer) and melee tokugawa (more effectiv)

I suggest that the bonus damage should take effect if the target is withing range 5 to take bonus damage from the talent. Artillery would not get this bonus unless if it is in danger and melee and CQB will have a more "reliable" damage bonus.

vagrant grotto
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Okay, though I think the benefit in the CQB case is being able to use them at ranges they weren’t intended to be used at

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If you wanna try what you proposed though I’d be happy to hear the results

summer jay
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CQB intended range is 5 so my suggestion could work

granite saddle
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Oh, btw, she's probably gonna be one of my players, so you tell me what you want tested

vagrant grotto
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My little houserule repo is very informal, and I encourage folks to hack their own stuff too

summer jay
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and it will put this category in sort of middle ground, can shoot from a confortable distance but have to be close to be effective

vagrant grotto
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Ah okay. I’d prefer to hear how it plays then first before making changes

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RA knows I’ve changed enough around heat already

summer jay
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I have an old build idea with tokugawa and thermal pistols, sad it will get a bit less edge in this situation but i can test it on the eventual session. It depend also what will play other player

granite saddle
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Thermal pistol on toku is just sad in general tbh, no range increase bc template + halved bonus damage...

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Ehh

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I'll see, won't I ?

summer jay
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yeah i know but having a aux who can target multiple target and who don't need to be reloaded was something i wanted to try

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and having 3d6 burn seems too funny

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I am also curious about what can be done with the retake on the death head and I have also a gorgon build I want to try (iconoclast with noah and scilla)

granite saddle
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Good thing I'm running two games then. In the meantime though, I think that's enough here; Wouldn't want to get even more off-topic.

summer jay
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yep, that all for me, just tell me if one of the three mentionned need more testing than the other

vagrant grotto
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Haven’t heard any playtesting on any of those so happy to hear whatever

summer jay
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Will do (this time I swear)

vagrant grotto
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There’s always the possibility I kneejerked on the player stuff tbqh, so feedback on how it feels is valuable.

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Not necessarily looking for design ideas, just knowing if the current iteration feels good or not is all I want

summer jay
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Understood

muted blaze
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Reading the kai rebakes. I've got a question about recharge heat for homebrew npcs: if an npc has a recharge X ability and a heat X ability, how much heat do they take?:

  • always heat X
  • whichever is larger and causes them to take more heat
  • both heat sources
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Im gonna be ruling ut as whichever is larger but I just wanted your opinion as its an edge case I realised could happen and self heat X + recharge heat could just be too much

vagrant grotto
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Point of recharge heat is to introduce heat where there was none before

muted blaze
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I assumed so

vagrant grotto
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Largely because if someone is purposefully adding heat already, I’ll trust their judgment more than my blanket rule

muted blaze
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Rather than having a blanket all "this is how recharge X and self heat X" in the rules just have a "i'll trust the GM here"

vagrant grotto
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The author yeah

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I’ll trust they know what their doing until I have playtest evidence to the contrary

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That may be a little harsh, point being “try it before you tweak it”

muted blaze
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Instructions unclear. Your rules are breaking my game... I have a heat cap 6, self heat 4 recharge 6 ability and it causes my boss to keep exploding

vagrant grotto
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Just do what I do and stop following the rules that break your games thinkaboutit

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On the topic of self heat, I’m planning to reduce the Heat cost of an ally using Ghost’s Quantum Bond from 2 to 1

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Finding that a little less heat may be a bit better for some effects

muted blaze
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Ghost quantum bond?

vagrant grotto
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Ghost also takes the heat, and any conditions, and it has a heatcap of 4/6/8 so yeah

muted blaze
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Oh your NPCs

vagrant grotto
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Yes

muted blaze
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Mb

granite saddle
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Oh yeah on that subject !

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Sorry boss, but the math ain't mathin'

Screenshot_20250227_184806_Drive.jpg
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I think you forgot to change it to "X-2" when you changed it, is that right ?

vagrant grotto
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Ah heck

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I mistyped

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Should be X - 3

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Math is hard

granite saddle
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Ooo yeah -3

granite saddle
granite saddle
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Alright, team selected, and I even got my two overcharge freaks(affectionate) on board !

granite saddle
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So, I've got a player interested in running a Death's Head with your reworked CP; Do you want to try and make it compatible with Sheavies to test how it feels with them, see if excluding them from it is necessary ? Or do I once again run with just how it's written and that's it ?

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They haven't made their build yet, so we can do either

vagrant grotto
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Legitimately I don’t remember how it goes

granite saddle
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RAW, can't do it with Sheavies currently

vagrant grotto
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Oh because of superheavy rule bullshit yah

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Yeah no allow it

granite saddle
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nice

vagrant grotto
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It should work with a superheavy

granite saddle
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and like that we see if it needs a downside with them or no

granite saddle
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spreading the good news the best way I know how

vagrant grotto
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Lol

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Lemme know how it goes and I’ll reconsider the wording appropriately

granite saddle
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yep

granite saddle
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I'm gonna bring mostly PPG NPCs, and All The Taunts.

vagrant grotto
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Very well; hope it works

granite saddle
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You're interested in seeing how bad it is when multiple of any given class are in paly at the same time, so I raise you : interplay between your taunt-er NPCs !

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(and also a fuckton of torrents. Drown the planet.)

vagrant grotto
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yeah no I did not balance for multiple different types of taunters on the field at the same time

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much like how Crush Targeting likely wasn't balanced for multiple Goliaths at the same time

granite saddle
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Knight is fine probably

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Right ?

vagrant grotto
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Mesmerist and Knight are probably in a fine place yeah

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I think Knight can't overlap duels EDIT: I am correct

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Anchor might be iffy but the fact that it's region-based is more palatable IMO

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Prism though... only drawing LOS to Prism after getting hit with Diffraction Beam is gonna be a painpoint to test

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in general I leaned hard on the "prevent targeting" side of things for these NPCs

granite saddle
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Yea

vagrant grotto
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i'm floating some extra optional repair rules

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not sure if they're necessary together or not but figured I'd put them to paper

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EXTRA REPAIRS
For Lancer tables that struggle with REPAIRS (or just filled with frames with low REPAIR CAPS), consider permanently granting an EXTRA REPAIRS reserve (Lancer, p. 51). This can grant some extra breathing room to frames with otherwise poor longevity, such as the ATLAS, KOBOLD, and DEATH’S HEAD.

FORGIVING REPAIRS
This rule is intended to be used alongside SYSTEM TRAUMA STRUCTURE DAMAGE, ONE REACTOR STRESS FOR ALL, and OVERCHARGE REROLLS, but can be used standalone. It’s intended to simplify repairing multi-weapon mounts, reduce REPAIR pressure on frames with low REPAIR CAPS, and grant more cushion after suffering System Trauma.

Under REPAIRS AND REST (Lancer, p. 82), adjust the REPAIRS costs as follows:

• 1 REPAIR: Restore full HP, restore 1 STRUCTURE or 1 STRESS, reset the OVERCHARGE counter, repair a destroyed system, repair all destroyed weapons and any mods on a single mount, or repair a single SUPERHEAVY weapon and its mod (if any).
• 4 REPAIRS: Repair a destroyed mech (see next column).

In addition, make the following change to any mech with the REPLACEABLE PARTS trait:

REPLACEABLE PARTS    
While resting, when this mech spends a REPAIR, they may also regain full HP without spending an additional REPAIR.
granite saddle
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I mean, 1 stress for all really eases up on the repairs so eh

vagrant grotto
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I introduce it back with Overcharge resets

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Plus System Trauma costs reps

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That said this may be overcooked

granite saddle
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But repairing mods is just clarifying RAW, which is never bad, and I've always run 1 repair for the whole mount because that's the way this should have been from the start

vagrant grotto
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Yeah exactly on both counts

granite saddle
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The only problem I'd see with those is replaceable parts stepping on Balor's toes a bit

vagrant grotto
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I care a lot less about toe stepping than other folks

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Balor still doesn’t need to spend any repairs if it doesn’t want to, and still get back HP

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That said I could always dial it back to what I originally had and make it “if you restore structure you restore HP too” so it’s more restrictive

granite saddle
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I guess testing is in order then, see what's best

vagrant grotto
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Yeah, when I think of the Balor’s core identity, the “by the way it gets hp back for free during a rest” is just an extension of the much more evocative Regenerator

granite saddle
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The main problem is that I have no idea how the power budget works in Lancer, and I don't want these buffs to negatively impact the balor by making one of its traits potentially lose value

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So I'll just let you decide

vagrant grotto
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Balor’s Self-perpetuating is practically a ribbon saying “hey don’t extend the combat just so you regen your hp back”

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All of Balor’s power budget is in regenerator, to the detriment of literally all its other stats lol

granite saddle
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That low speed + low sensors combo is honestly horrible to play with

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Not personal experience, but I've been a witness to it

vagrant grotto
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Listen, a houserule I’ve been meaning to add is bumping Balor speed to at least 4 if not 5

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It’s a striker after all

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I like some of LitD’s changes like improving Swarm Body but worry about importing it wholesale to my house rules

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Lighthearted: A house rule I'm considering but would likely never put into a publication is:

Talentless Hacks
Remove all pilot Talents from the game.

But I'd bet folks would revolt over that

granite saddle
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So, current encounter plan :
||Escort, maybe Extraction if you want.
Elite Commander Prism; Veteran Knight, 4xTorrent (only 2 at a time); 2xHatchet||
Any changes you want ? I'm kinda rusty on my encounter balance too, might wanna add ||a mesmerist with narcissus override for maximum targetting hell, or just a support because.|| You tell me.

granite saddle
vagrant grotto
granite saddle
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4 players is the plan

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||I'll throw in 2 more Hatchets too||

vagrant grotto
# granite saddle ... You mean remove talents from the game ? But why ?

Because:

  1. They're the most common source of easy accuracy stacking
  2. They're the most common source of easy mobility stacking
  3. They're also the most common source of Bonus Damage stacking
  4. They're infinitely more fiddly than just building/playing my mech, both in terms of building and gameplay
  5. They don't feel like Pilot Talents, they feel like Mech Tweaks

I will happily, joyously point out that this is very much just my personal opinion and you should take it with as much salt as you can muster. I just find Talents as-is to be dissatsifying to build around as a player, play with as a player, and a contributor to systemic balance issues as a GM.

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one of the most enjoyable times I've had playing Lancer was a LL0 Sagarmatha on Control with a bunch of adjacent/nearby ally-oriented talents. I wound up isolated from the rest of my team trying to drive 2 mooks and a Veteran off the control zone. I tied up 2.5 points of NPC structure/3 NPC turns off on my lonesome, with no added support from my talents. And it was magnificent.

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but I'm probably not putting that in PPG ever, and if I did, it would obviously just be optional like everything else

granite saddle
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I mean yeah sure but then you need to give weapon types a reason to exist and/or remove them too.

vagrant grotto
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Frames are more than capable of giving them reasons to exist, from what I see

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and even if not, NPCs are doing fine without it mattering

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so IMO, I don't need to do anything in that category

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want? maybe!

granite saddle
vagrant grotto
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Monarch

granite saddle
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True.

vagrant grotto
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Weapon Mods

granite saddle
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I entirely forgot about those tbh. Yeah ok you're right.

vagrant grotto
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and even if they didn't, funny labels are fine by me

granite saddle
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Oh ofc

vagrant grotto
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damage types are already practically an afterthought

granite saddle
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Yup. Sad too, but yup.

vagrant grotto
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but yeah, in an ideal world such a change would be accompanied by other changes, like:

  • streamlined, pilot-forward talents a la Salvage Union
  • converting some talents into mech equipment, either in licenses or simply GMS. Like a "GMS Taunt Module" to get Exemplar, or "GMS Hacking Suite" for Hacker or "GMS Infil Suite" for Infiltrator stuff
  • frame and equipment tweaks to account for balancing around talents that no longer exist (all Rifles, Sherman, etc)
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which is why I'm unlikely to follow through on this threat lol 😛

granite saddle
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Yeah

vagrant grotto
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Thinking more about how I’ve setup the Prism’s features and optionals, and I think that I’ve actually made it a primary defender secondary artillery haha

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Meanwhile, I think the Engineer (especially Kai’s rebake) is actually the poster child for an Artillery/Defender hybrid, with its focus on sheer damage at Range 10 (my borderline for Artillery ranges) but concentrated in a single defensive area

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So I might reverse the Prism’s roles in the future

granite saddle
granite saddle
granite saddle
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Oh ! also, when you're overheated+exposed, and you take heat that is then converted into damage because you're at heat cap, is the energy damage doubled by exposed ?

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currently, by RAW it's yes so it's what I'll run, but if that's not intended you tell me.

vagrant grotto
granite saddle
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ohohohoo

vagrant grotto
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The energy damage can’t be reduced, but the original Heat can (e.g. by resistance, Smokestack, etc)

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Basically the heat goes through the “damage” process twice: once as heat and once as energy

granite saddle
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ye

granite saddle
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Game's done, we'll sleep on it and give feedback tomorrow. I can at least give you some good news already : Almost none of the problems we had were with your stuff.

vagrant grotto
granite saddle
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You'll be able to see in #1323256473350045716

vagrant grotto
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Oh

granite saddle
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(this was that game, not the one I'm using your npcs for)

granite saddle
vagrant grotto
# granite saddle (for that second game I still have that question hanging)

oh mb, was running a game earlier and didn’t get a chance to answer. ||yeah feel free to give Ghost a try. If you want, reduce the heat on Quantum Bond to 1 heat; I felt like that was more appropriate than 2. As for projections: ghost occupies a space of the bonded target. I think they should only occupy the bonded target’s main space in this case, and not the projector’s space||

granite saddle
vagrant grotto
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||weighing whether I should have a forced movement clause on the projector that allows the projector to be moved instead of the Prism, at attacker’s choice||

granite saddle
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||idk, both are pretty useful : moving the prism from far away can allow you to move it to a more vulnerable position to get around the resistance, while moving the projector itself allows you to in a way force the Prism to redeploy it, thus risking heating it up. I fear allowing both could make it very very vulnerable to control. I am biased though, simply because I find punting an NPC from 15 spaces away absurdly funny.||

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Want me to test that in a given way, or just current version ?

vagrant grotto
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Current version

clever condor
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oh yeah

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running a prism to replace pilgrim's mirage in shadow of the wolf

it works well, and a PC has made it their life's choice to beat the shit out of pilgrim for tha bullshit holograms it deployed (it destroyed pilgrim's weapons)

summer jay
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So, yesterday night I had a boss battle with a iconoclast gorgon (scilla + noah) build, I have few point to aboard:

Gorgon: The new core power is strong but I never want to use it in my build because it don't trigger any system of the licence nor noah so it feels like it work against the scilla as licence. Maybe make it so the fail system save count as a failed attack for system, talent and other purpose but the attacker still keep the atacker can still try to target someone who isn't in range 3 of the gorgon.
Hunter killer nexus: The accuracy is a pretty good addition and save some some miss so it's pretty nice, would have like to see crit with it but no luck on this part.
Overcharge: Even if my build don't have my build don't benefit so much with raw overcharge, the new one don't feel worse it to use for the cost. I don't roll anything on my turn, attack with my reaction aren't decisive enough to justify heating myself more and with technophile (wasn't using it on this battle but a version of my build use it) give me a security with check and save already.
Brace: pretty usefull, if I played it better I would have saved a structure
Alternative structure and dazzed: Less rng is better to me so it's a thumbs up, dazzed feel a lot better than a stun.

I didn't cascade so I didn't hade the occasion to battle my NHP against themself

warm cedar
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Hiii, it's been a while since a I didn't give feedback here.

So it's about Water's game last night. We opt for all optional rules and here's how I feel as a player (for once lol)

Context : I played a Sysop Defender Support Kutuzov with high heat cap. Never stressed or structured.

Optional Condition Dazed : Never got it, but it sounds like a good and fair alternative to being stunned, while giving Brace a 1/Scene which sounds very interesting. While I don't know much about dazed, I really like the new Brace rule, it gives more viability on the battle and more option to players, which is always nice.

Optional Status Overheated : Also never got it in game, but I like how it forces players to stabilize, it encourages more tactical play and reward survivability.

Optional Rule, stress at Max Heat Cap : mixed feelings about this : essentially, it just makes everyone at -1 Heat Cap, and encourages players to put more point in ENGI. It's just a overall malus for everyone and I don't see much interest in the rule.µ

Optional Rule Recharge Heat : the NPC was a boss that didn't have a single Recharge X+ trait, blame Water (don't).

Optional Rule Contested Cascade : No one has cascaded in the team so no feedback on it

Optional Rule Overcharge Rerolls : I actually really liked this change ! As a Tokugawa main and GM, I always fell like NuCav players are always kind of braindead gameplay with little heat management (or not at all for me). So of course, it changes completely the game as we'll never make a additional Quick Action (exception for Everest and Asura) but it makes the game so much less frustrating for missing an attack : the Heat sounds like a good drawback for trying again to hit. It makes NuCav players more tactical but also every other build, as anyone benefit from this change. I also like the Heat applied after the action because it makes the choice of overcharging easier.

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Optional Rule Structure Table : I've already run somes games with the alternate structure and stress table from GMS CCC so my thought will be the same : it feels more fair for everyone.

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Optional Rule One Reactor Stress for all : Never got it, I don't know how to think about that. I just think it pull off the fun in catastrophically exploding your mech but that's all.

Optional Rule Overkill : Never used an Overkill weapon in this game, but I guessed it makes sense with the new Overcharge change.

vagrant grotto
vagrant grotto
summer jay
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No problem.

vagrant grotto
# warm cedar Hiii, it's been a while since a I didn't give feedback here. So it's about Wat...

I appreciate the feedback! Noted on Stress at Max Heat Cap. Might just revert that portion.

Regarding Reactor Stress and exploding mechs: yeah I get it. But there’s times where it became a meme for veteran NPCs and more times where if it happened it resulted in No Mech for the player for the rest of the mission. Fun factor may be gone but I think it’s a net gain overall.

Glad most everything else went over well. Brace changes getting use make me happy; I should put them directly into Prototype Pattern Groups tbh. I’m still on the fence about the overkill change being opt in, but I definitely think the heat should be a lump total at minimum.

granite saddle
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On the opt-in overkill, the thing is it's occasionally used as a downside, and by occasionally I of course mean the shock claws in particular. Agreed on the single lump though.

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And also the end of exploding isn't actually there, it's just an illusion. The only reason you don't see it anymore is because you're too much of a coward to self-destruct yourself.
(Also to me the added bonus of it being impossible for fusion reactors to explode accidentally, you know, like it works irl, is worth it)

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Oh also the TacLance Death's Head didn't break anything with the Core power.

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Maybe not the best way to test it, but still.

granite saddle
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Hmm

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now that game day is upon us, I wonder

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||I am correct in thinking the Torrent's self-push is involuntary movement and as such stops Quantums Bonds ? Also, how mean do you want me to be ? (this is mainly about "dropping a knight right next to the objective when they get to it and make it challenge the designated Objective Carrier)"||

#

also, I am suddenly way less concerned about the combat accidentally being way too hard and now very very concerned on "how the fuck am I gonna challenge them at all"

#

Gotta love the ways of the players I guess

vagrant grotto
#

Like do you mean ||you are next to the extraction objective but now you can’t run away with it because you’re Compelled to Duel?||

granite saddle
#

||yes||

vagrant grotto
#

Yeah do it

granite saddle
#

ohoho

vagrant grotto
#

Need to know if it’s unreasonable for an NPC to do this

granite saddle
#

||If you allow me to, I am thinking of allowing a few more optionals, just in case : Hatchets are gonna be Marine with deck anchors, Ghosts have spectral flight and now also wavefunction collapse just in case, and (this is the one I really wanna ask you about) Torrents are exotics with Living weaponry and also crashing tsunami, in addition of drown in nanites||
||Problem is I fear adding all of these at the same time might be a bit too much||

vagrant grotto
#

||torrent id like you to keep close to base +0-1 optionals as possible||

#

||I don’t know what deck anchors does, would it make it easier to use the new Cleaving Retrieval? If so maybe omit it. Do whatever on the Ghost||

granite saddle
#

||Deck anchors is "prevent involuntary movement 1/round as a reaction", so you tell me. And noted on the Torrent.||

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||As much as I want to test Drown in nanites to give feedback on it, I also fear it really wont be enough to let me pose a real challenge. You would rather see untemplated Torrents right ? because if so that at least stops me from being conflicted||

vagrant grotto
vagrant grotto
#

||use a different optional if you have to use one, then imo? But I’d love to see how just the base kit handles||

granite saddle
#

||Yeah then I'll stick with just drown in the back pocket||

granite saddle
granite saddle
#

||Oh also I put Tempered on the Prism. Felt appropriate.||

granite saddle
#

Does refracting armor protect the prism itself ?

vagrant grotto
#

Only burst attacks don’t affect the emanating source unless specified

#

Goal is to prevent the Prism and its allies from getting chumped by Seeking. You’re likely gonna be shooting the more prominent hologram, and need to work to reach the genuine article

granite saddle
#

Went well !

granite saddle
#

Got a ton of feedback too

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not a lot of good on the alt rules, but everyone liked the NPCs !

#

I'll write it sometime soon, I'll be real busy in the near future though

granite saddle
#

got some personal stakes in the thing, y'know ?

granite saddle
#

(also putting those here to save them just in case)

vagrant grotto
#

people hate it when they think stuff is being taken from them, which is why I'm not surprised when folks are upset about the Overcharge changes

#

very happy to hear that they liked the NPCs though, they're the lifeblood of this project after all

granite saddle
vagrant grotto
#

I hope they're not arguing mid-fight lol

granite saddle
#

No actually, which is why it hit me so hard at the end of the session when the Bad came in

#

Really had no clue

vagrant grotto
#

at least they were considerate during the session 😌

granite saddle
#

Why do you think I care so much about them liking these as much as I do ? Amazing players this bunch.

#

Two of them are part of my go-to-s, and it's no wonder why

granite saddle
#

Alright, while I have a little bit of time :
Torrent : base kit is good, and surprisingly still works with the Ghost somewhat, as long as you use the burst attack, it's harder with the cone. Drown is entirely useless though. Full action and save and only slowed with the only overwatch options working against keeping the target close while also not having anything to keep them close ? Never worth it above attacking and another quick. (Managed to grab the objective with one too !)
Prism : while the paracausal nanocarb Empaakai might have skewed the results, I can say with absolute certainty, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that this thing needs more bulk. Otherwise the aggro mechanic is a straight downside and it doesn't get to be a proper defender. Resistance might seem good yeah, but it ain't enough here. Also I'd consider making the beam accurate, 'cause I hit with it once, maybe twice. Lower the damage if you need to, but this thing needs to be able to hit.

#

Hatchet : got hardcountered by a HG3 gandiva play, which is fair. Otherwise managed to deal respectable damage, especially with the plasma knife giving AP to cleaving retrival. Wasn't too bad having to wait, made me think about my dropped weapon placement instead of just going "I pick the closest spaces" every time.

#

Might consider giving them something to do when they have nothing in sensors and all their weapons thrown out without being able to retrieve them. A ranged retrieve action/FA that doesn't trigger retrieval ? Need more testing before anything though.

#

Knight unfortunately got melted before having the chance to use second wind and/or the veteran repair (by the Empaakai, xho would have guessed), but the players didn't get annoyed at the mechanic when it spawned next to the objective carrier, but that one got rightfully scared of the duel and liked it.

vagrant grotto
# granite saddle Alright, while I have a little bit of time : Torrent : base kit is good, and su...

Excellent, thank you for all this!

  • Noted on Drown, it’ll need reworked. Glad that Torrent otherwise performed well! I hope it was challenging but not frustrating?
  • Prism: Yeah no now that I realize how hard I went on Defender I think shifting more bulk into it would be wise. Did players grok the Projector mechanics? I’ll double check the gun accuracy bonuses and see if I can make something reasonable.
  • Glad the hatchet still felt good with the “next turn” clause in play. Noted on dead turns when nothing is in range. Makes me realize there’s a reason so many Pathfinder and DnD immobilizing spells have some sort of means of escape, even if it’s subpar action Econ. I’m kinda okay with Immobilize as Counter for it though.
  • Also glad the knight put the fear of RA into someone, even if the Knight got dunked on. Paracausal hurts bad it seems lol. I do wonder if Templar’s Shield would be well-served with Overshield instead of resistance, if Self Heat regulates it? Unsure
#

Happy to hear any constructive feedback about the optional rules too. Just leave out any expletives lol

vagrant grotto
#

Oh by the way @granite saddle what LL was this again?

granite saddle
#

LL6

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Oh btw the knight's challenge wasn't with the paracausal gal

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She was just there to be a problem and succeeded at that

#

Now hold on a minute whil I look at what expletive means

vagrant grotto
#

No angry/curses lol

#

Like if they were fucking pissed and just dunking on it, spare me that lol

granite saddle
#

Yeah yea

#

Dw

#

Got (almost) none of that anyways so

granite saddle
granite saddle
#

Maybe it'd benefit from OS, but given it has second wind as an optional, eh, idk

vagrant grotto
#

Valid, was mostly musing on it

granite saddle
#

I just should have taken a turn with it sooner, but I had so many things needing activating that someone would have died either way

#

Oh ! Makes me think :
Was making the Ghosts fall into the Lich stereotype of "give me the first turn or I instantly disintegrate" intentional or ?

#

Because either way they fall into it

#

Not that that's necessarily a problem, but it is the case so I figured I'd say it just in case

#

Making them spawn already bonded would be way too much anyways, so nothing to do about it

vagrant grotto
#

Putting it in the tracker

granite saddle
vagrant grotto
#

And a relative lack of “escape mechanics” on some immobilized effects.

#

Stabilize removing conditions honestly does a lot of work for players looking to eke out some action economy; if the option is do nothing this turn vs stabilize and standard move, that’s something

#

@granite saddle I think I may rework Drown to be an Engulf/Whelm effect like a Water Elemental or Ooze. I was hesitant on adding a legit abduction ability but it may be fine for an optional

# 
Drown in Nanites: Trait, Full Action
Target character makes an Agility save. On a success, they are Slowed and Impaired until the end of their next turn. On a failure, they are engulfed. While engulfed:
- They are immobilized and jammed
- they share a space with the Torrent and move with all of its movement
- They take half of the damage the Torrent receives before exposed, armor, and resistance

The target ceases to be engulfed if they stop sharing a space with the Torrent, pass a contested Hull check as a full action, if the Torrent is Jammed, Stunned, overheated, or destroyed, or if the Torrent uses this action again
vagrant grotto
#

@granite saddle And revising Ghost’s Phase Shift:

PHASE SHIFT
Trait
This character is INTANGIBLE. While INTANGIBLE, they can target and affect tangible characters and objects, but only deal half damage, heat, and burn. If this character is Stunned, Jammed, or overheated, this trait is disabled until the end of its next turn.
#

Runs a bit afoul if someone just gives this dumb intangible thing a gun though

#

Probably need to stick with a “this is intangible until the start of its first turn in combat, and only on its turns afterwards”

granite saddle
#

Yeah I was about to suggest exactly that

#

A bit busy today, so yeah, but yeah

vagrant grotto
#

Oooor I could do something elegant like “this character is intangible. Yadda yadda targeting and damage. If the Ghost takes any actions on its turn, this trait is disabled until the end of its next turn.”

#

So then you’re encouraged to bond immediately

granite saddle
#

Could work, yeah, as long as it's clear the intangible from being bonded doesn't follow that same restriction

vagrant grotto
#

Right, that’s why I refer to “this trait”

granite saddle
#

Problem with that is that, then, the trait is also what allows it to interact with not-intangivle things while intangible

vagrant grotto
#

Ah fuck

granite saddle
#

Yeah

vagrant grotto
#

Ugh

#

Playing with fucking Truth Tables here

granite saddle
#

(or is this a fools rarely differ situation ?)

vagrant grotto
#

Nah I thought of it too

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I don’t think a passive “jam field” is great though

#

I guess you can just walk out

granite saddle
#

Yea, though on the torrent it's better than most because yeah you can just walk out

#

Even its own overwatch forces it to move around so maybe it won't even want to do it to you if you walk out

vagrant grotto
#

Yeah I don’t know, it’s still on demand jam

#

Walk on top of someone and turn off their reactions and allied tech

granite saddle
#

Yeah

#

This version is better I agree

vagrant grotto
#

I like the engulf mechanic, so I wanna try it

#

Feels like a water elemental

granite saddle
#

Though some clarifying : -maybe add a smaller or same size requirement
-It takes half of the torrznt's damage, but does the torrent itself only take the other half or the full damage ?

#

Also maybe the engulfed should also have soft cover as a silver lining, but only if it wouldn't make it even worse actually

vagrant grotto
#

Same size or smaller is a good call

granite saddle
#

Reading it does convey that idea, but I wouldn't even wait to put that one in the faq

vagrant grotto
granite saddle
#

Yeah

vagrant grotto
#

That way it still does something but it’s still a FA for impaired + slowed

granite saddle
#

Yeah, good call, like that idea

#

The Barb does need the wins (I had one and it really enjoyed being immune to torrent shenanigans, even has explosive resistance !)

#

Really invoked the spirit of Pacific Rim's opening lines

vagrant grotto
granite saddle
#

Really like the boost², that is also compatible with normal boost and normal move.

#

I have more thoughts hang on

#

Okay so

#

Beforehand, tangeant on the "objectives are just objects" rule :
Nobody mentionned it in the feedback time, so with the context of the game itself, it feels to me like it's in the "feels so natural we don't even think about it passively" sweet spot

vagrant grotto
#

Perfect

granite saddle
#

Now onto Storm Surge :
I really enjoyed it as a "get in quick" tool, and it's very powerful as a control ability, but since I needed to use it to get in range enough to do anything, I was never in a position to really use it to its full extent, especially as a recharge 6+ like damn

#

Especially since most everyone succeeded the saves, even when it would have been like two spaces at most

#

So either raise the save target or lower the recharge value I'd say. Especially targetting hull, you'll be hard-pressed to find someone that bad at those.

#

Also I totally forgot recharge heat on this ability, but 3 heat on an opener on a 6 HC frame is crazy (not the good kind)

vagrant grotto
granite saddle
#

Np

#

That's kinda the entire point of those, so...

vagrant grotto
#

Right right. The unspoken part was “instead of letting you get into the optional rules feedback” lol

granite saddle
#

Yea

#

Like I said, those kinda bum me out too, so I'm not in that much of a hurry either

#

But yeah, Prism got melted, one player said they liked the threat factor of the Knight and the general vibe of the Torrent, the cleaving retrival worked well enough, and the Ghost

#

Oh, actually I have more to say hang on

#

First, just so you get how crushed I got, none of the ghosts ever took a turn while still combined, so really glad I saw that coming and put wavefunction collapse on 'em

#

But now for the actually important stuff :

#

Hatchet base kit feels really empty right now

#

Like, now that I think about it, if I already felt somewhat limited while having an optionnal weapon, the thought of ever running an optional-less hatchet is awful

#

Like, flip kick is nice, but situational and a recharge ability, and other than that all it's got in its kit is one singular weapon, so one action (skirmish)

#

Thinking back to every time I've seen them in Tony's game, he never ever put less than two optionals on them, and at least one was always a weapon

#

And honestly ? I get it.

#

See what I'm on about ?

vagrant grotto
#

Got it

granite saddle
#

Alright, perfect then.

vagrant grotto
#

So maybe flip kick has lost out due to the cleaving retrieval change?

#

Since the original action loop was “throw axe, run up, retrieve, flip kick back”

granite saddle
#

Yeah kinda

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It's more a disengage tool for after the cleaving retival now

vagrant grotto
#

That’s what I said

granite saddle
#

Like the next turn I mean

vagrant grotto
#

Yeah fair

granite saddle
#

You set up your quasi-mines on one turn, then get in, retrival, melee skirmish, and filp kick across two turns

vagrant grotto
#

Wondering if I should’ve stuck to my guns then

granite saddle
granite saddle
#

The damage on succesful save is still nice for that kinda setup

#

And having slow on it too led me to try and throw them out in the open when I had no one in range, to try and exert that fear factor

#

Previous version was, I want to say "brainless" but that's kinda mean, but you see what I'm trying to say

#

While this had both counterplay and encouraged me to actually use my brain, just a little bit. Which is nice I enjoy that.

#

So I'll let you decide what you want, but that's my take/feelings on both versions if it helps (for context on my earlier statements, Tony only ever used the old version, never the new quasi-mine version)

vagrant grotto
#

Or just “magnet hands: quick action retrieve all thrown weapons, no retrieval bonus”

granite saddle
#

Does the first one also not trigger retrieval ?

vagrant grotto
#

Neither do

granite saddle
#

Yup, good

vagrant grotto
#

Point is that you give up and reset

granite saddle
#

Yeah, and that'd give more validity to the "attack the air as a dissuasion tactic" use of cleaving retrieval

#

Cause if it works, just magnet hands and do it again

#

(or go in manually anyways)

vagrant grotto
#

Thinking about how requiring a next turn retrieval fucks with Overwatch though

#

Dunno how I feel about that

#

Eh it’s fine

granite saddle
#

Hatchet doesn't thrive on overwatch anyways yeah

vagrant grotto
#

It’s a pseudo-CQB user

#

I felt weird Overwatching and point blank throwing

#

I guess that’s still a tactic though

#

Grapple + point blank throw

granite saddle
vagrant grotto
granite saddle
#

It feels weird when you put it that way but I absolutely get it. (It's just that without the threat icon anywhere I kept instinctually doing my ranged attack routine instead of going straight to melee-ing)

vagrant grotto
granite saddle
#

Ye ye of course

vagrant grotto
granite saddle
vagrant grotto
#

Where no throw meant leaving damage on the table

granite saddle
granite saddle
vagrant grotto
#

I mean all weapons have threat 1 tbf

granite saddle
#

Yes, but if you don't show it people will just apply that rule like it should work instead of maybe going "so does that mean I can start the cone anywhere in threat like if it had range", like I did for the Mythos boss a while ago.
Of course, the answer is "that interaction only exists with range and not threat, so no" but if you don't show it people won't even think to think about it.

#

Like, current version works, I'm just a dumbass

#

Very situationally a dumbass, sure, but a dumbass nonetheless

vagrant grotto
#

Be kind to yourself

#

But aight got more feedback than expected on hatchet, I’ll have to chew on that

granite saddle
vagrant grotto
#

@granite saddle I’ll likely be making updates to PPG today; if you send over the optional rule feedback I may be able to incorporate some of it? Otherwise, it can wait until the next release

granite saddle
#

Short version, skipping some of the opinions I don't feel matter enough for now (kinda busy) :

  • Overcharge rerolls are fine enough as a concept, but they still benefit damage dealers more than support builds, and restrict the already tight action economy for them that way. (Not my take)
  • Stressing at HC instead of over changes nothing except reducing all heatcaps by 1, and this hits already low HC disproportionately, further incentivizing Engi investment even though it's already the second most valuable stat to invest in. (I agree with that one)
  • 1 stress for all makes self-heat builds incredibly rough to play, and also has the side effect of once again incentivizing Engi investment and heat-clear methods (somewhat no matter who you are) because you can no longer use "intentionally" stressing yourself as a way to lower your heat, even though that was already a gamble. (Not my take either, but I see their point)
#

For that last one, maybe having a universal option to "roll over heat as usual and don't become overheated, but become perma-drained and impaired until you [stabilise to clear heat+exposed] that can't be cleared any other way" or something (on top of regular exposed ofc)

#

All of that is the short version, and only of the points I feel are the most valid, but for now it'll have to do

#

Oh also feel free to add the aid action if you want. Someone used it and it didn't break anything, it's solid.

vagrant grotto
granite saddle
#

I expected that, but yeah

vagrant grotto
#

I am more willing to encourage heat fiends to invest for their toys yeah

#

Because not everyone is gonna be a heat fiend!

granite saddle
vagrant grotto
#

On Overcharge not being great for folks that don’t make attacks: I see you, I get it

vagrant grotto
granite saddle
vagrant grotto
#

Yeah…. I feel like I use a fair amount of them on my npcs but they’re not the CRB

#

Ideas I want to mull over then:

  1. Allowing OC to be used for minor quick actions like Lock On, Bolster, and Aid (pulling from finaljas90’s tweaks)
  2. Using OC to force enemy rerolls
  3. I don’t know, however PF2E and Salvage Union do it
#

SU gets away with it more since everything is a unified 1d20 dice roll mechanic, so your weird hack for information rolls 1d20 that you can reroll to get a better result

#

PF2E, I see the same thing happen for my save-oriented support spellcaster

#

The bonus there is that I can freely burn it on skill checks and important saves, but there’s deffo sessions where I don’t touch my Hero Points

granite saddle
#

I did thinl of point 1 too btw, so yeah worth thinking about

vagrant grotto
#

Even if it doesn’t tone down Striker Heat Gameplay, it should at least make their turns less complicated

granite saddle
#

Lock on might be a bad idea though, still benefits strikers somewhat

vagrant grotto
#

Eh, I’ll take a Lock On over a Second Attack any day

#

At that point they’re burning heat for 1 accuracy when they could be burning heat for a reroll

#

They can burn heat for both but then they’re burning a LOT of heat

granite saddle
#

Yeah

#

Might want to look at a "on your turn, either rerolls or the extra limited quick" if need be

vagrant grotto
#

Anyway, “restricting the tight action economy” is working as intended

granite saddle
vagrant grotto
#

I do think Lancers in the Dark is onto something by splitting Overcharge away from Heat and into Pilot Stress

#

Like, there’s times where I feel like I’m doing half-measures when I should really go all the way

granite saddle
#

only question then is what happens when you break during a combat scene

vagrant grotto
#

Lose a turn

#

also I'd straight up replace the heat with pilot stress

#

but I'm not doing that right now

granite saddle
#

oh no I'm doing both

#

these fuckers wanna gamble ? I'll give 'em Gambling

granite saddle
granite saddle
vagrant grotto
# 
Drown in Nanites
Trait, Full Action
An adjacent character makes an AGILITY save; larger targets always pass. On a success, they are SLOWED and IMPAIRED until the end of their next turn. On a failure, the target is engulfed. While engulfed, they are JAMMED and IMMOBILIZED, share a space with the Torrent, and move when it moves.

The target ceases to be engulfed if they leave the Torrent’s space, pass a HULL save as a full action, if the Torrent is JAMMED, STUNNED, overheated, or destroyed, or if the Torrent uses this action again.
#

we are STRAPPED for space, but here we go

granite saddle
#

"I paid for the whole page so I'm gonna use the whole page !"

vagrant grotto
#

I am literally introducing a dog-ear to Drown in Nanites just to squeeze this puppy in

granite saddle
# vagrant grotto ``` Drown in Nanites Trait, Full Action An adjacent character makes an AGILITY s... 
Trait, Full Action
An adjacent character must succeed on an Agility save or be engulfed; larger targets always succeed. On a success, they are SLOWED and IMPAIRED until the end of their next turn. While engulfed, they are JAMMED and IMMOBILIZED, share a space with the Torrent, and move when it moves.

The target ceases to be engulfed if they pass a HULL save as a full action, stop sharing the Torrent’s spaces, if the Torrent is JAMMED, STUNNED, overheated, or destroyed, or if it uses this action again.```

Try this on for size, saves you 11 characters
#

maybe put the "on a success" bit after the decription of what engulfed is, if you feel like that's better

#

(also love the fact you can just. Ram the Torrent while engulfed to make it move in any direction you want, and as such move yourself one in any direction. Very funny; debatably useful.)

granite saddle
#

It's probably the PF2e that does that to you

vagrant grotto
#

Okay, if I ditch the newline it fits without weird dogear tricks

#

it's an ugly blob of text but oh well

granite saddle
#

the newline ?

#

oh the
"sdaisbdiab

idabzidhbaizdb"
is that what that is ?

#

yeah, wall of text, but if it's needed...

vagrant grotto
# 
An adjacent character must make an AGILITY save; larger targets always succeed. On a success, they are SLOWED and IMPAIRED until the end of their next turn. On a failure, they are engulfed until they pass a HULL save as a full action, they stop sharing the Torrent’s space, the Torrent is JAMMED, STUNNED, overheated, or destroyed, or the Torrent uses this action again. While engulfed, the target is JAMMED and IMMOBILIZED, shares a space with the Torrent, and moves when it moves.
#

hm okay I need to move "share a space" earlier

granite saddle
#

behold, from 484 to 452 characters :
An adjacent character must make an AGILITY save; larger targets always succeed. On a success, they are SLOWED and IMPAIRED until the end of their next turn. On a failure, they are engulfed, becoming JAMMED and IMMOBILIZED , occupying the Torrent’s space and moving with it, until they pass a HULL save as a full action, stop occupying the Torrent’s space, the Torrent is JAMMED, STUNNED, overheated, or destroyed, or the Torrent uses this action again.

#

take what you need

#

maybe add back the "one of" the torrent's spaces if you want

vagrant grotto
#

I'm tying the Jammed and Immobilized to Engulfed because I don't want them to Stabilize the effect off

#

they need to actually deal with Engulfed

#

it's like Grappled: not a condition or status, but while it's active the target is immobilized. Clearing immobilized with Stabilize just causes it to reapply due to Grappled

#

so my language is very intentional here

#

To make more space on the page, I'm changing Wash Away to:
Against PRONE characters, the Torrent may inflict KNOCKBACK in any direction.

granite saddle
granite saddle
vagrant grotto
#

Oh, I'm changing the Wavebreaker + Tsunami effects to:
This weapon must inflict KNOCKBACK. The Torrent may push itself to a space within the affected area. [Tsunami only] If the Torrent inflicts PRONE, reload this weapon.

#

I also got rid of some flavor on Scalding Greywash and Roil that bought some lines. Little sad about it but not much to be done

granite saddle
#

"may" ? Shouldn't it be "must" ?

#

Or just "pushes" ?

vagrant grotto
#

ehh good question

granite saddle
#

Before, the push wasn't optional

vagrant grotto
#

alright I'll adjust that yeah

granite saddle
vagrant grotto
#

I don't, no

granite saddle
#

hmm

vagrant grotto
#

I can afford to be explicit with it here

granite saddle
#

if you say so
(Also you're the native speaker here so I trust your judgement)

vagrant grotto
#

the change isn't buying me a line back, so I'm sticking with what I have

#

thank you though

granite saddle
#

don't have access to the modified doc, so yeah I can't tell that with just character count

granite saddle
vagrant grotto
#

@granite saddle btw, do you think Quantum Bond is good as a Full Action, or should it be a Quick?

#

for the Ghost

granite saddle
#

I had wavefunction collapse, so it was fine.

#

If I didn't, the ghosts would have quite honestly done no support ever

#

(all the things they bonded to died before they could ever start a turn already bonded)

#

so either add something to the ability or make it a quick yeah

#

maybe just applying the effects of Paradox state as part of the FA is good, prevents cheese

vagrant grotto
#

I think I'm gonna change Entangling Curse to allow it to Bolster instead, too

#

QA Quantum Bond is cleaner IMO

granite saddle
vagrant grotto
#

yes

#

The lock on was weird anyway

granite saddle
granite saddle
vagrant grotto
#

i'll hold onto it for now then

granite saddle
#

but it does make it a more solidly support mech so

vagrant grotto
#

lock on is support, but it's not defender support

granite saddle
#

yeah, but find me a more support ability than Bolster like c'mon

#

hmm

vagrant grotto
#

Paradox State is already pretty good

granite saddle
#

actually, it is very possible for a team to have almost no save abilities, while it's harder to not have an OpFor with attacks, so...

granite saddle
#

sure, I only got to trigger it like three times, but all three of these times it hit the 4+ and it was glorious

vagrant grotto
#

like the rotation is "Quantum Bond + Paradox State" then "Paradox State + Entangling Curse" ad infinitum

granite saddle
granite saddle
#

I like it

vagrant grotto
#

Reworded phase shift as elegantly and succinctly as possible:
This character is INTANGIBLE before its first turn and during its turns. While INTANGIBLE, they can target and affect tangible characters and objects, but only deal half damage, heat, or burn to all targets.

# 
GHASTLY VIGOR
Trait
The Ghost can use the BOLSTER quick tech action, targeting up to two characters instead of one.
#

Yeah no I like this more

granite saddle
#

alright, we'll see how it shakes out

#

less versatile, ironically

vagrant grotto
#

this feels more appropriate for this character

#

lock ons are great, sure, but like, this is a very defensive character

granite saddle
#

sure, but still, bolster might not be on NPCs for a good reason who knows (not me, that's for sure)

#

and even then it can still just lock on actually so it's probably fine

#

ooo

#

call it a banshee and put the old entangling curse back on

#

and you've got a variant frame, but NPC

vagrant grotto
#

the only other rider I can think of for Ghastly Vigor is "the target can expend the bolster to reduce hostile heat"

granite saddle
#

might be a bit too much that

#

heatgunning is hard enough as it is, no ? /gen

vagrant grotto
#

or the Sysop 2 effect

#

Tech attack difficulty

granite saddle
#

that'd be more fair yeah

#

hmm

#

yeah really don't see much else it could do

#

I mean, much else that isn't completely busted of course

vagrant grotto
#

yeah

# 
Trait
Gain BOLSTER as a QUICK TECH option. Tech attacks receive +1 Difficulty against BOLSTERED targets.
granite saddle
#

yeah, it's still got the until eont duration too, so it'll never be a total waste anyways

vagrant grotto
#

The more I look at Hatchet the more frustrated I get

#

I want this fucker to be a skirmisher but like, right now the optimal approach reads like "Turn 1: Grapple, Skirmish (thrown) > Turn 2: Retrieve, Ram, Skirmish > Repeat"

#

I envisioned this guy staying at range instead of brawling like a berserker

#

Maybe I change Monomolecular Throwing Axe to deal double damage when thrown with nobody adjacent

#

and halve its base damage

granite saddle
#

maybe make cleaving retrival itself give the "away" movement, instead of flip kick

#

and then flip kick gets to become drop, kick
The in movement

vagrant grotto
#

yeah was thinking of that too

granite saddle
#

spitballing here ofc, but I find that simpler than doulbing halved damage but sometimes only

vagrant grotto
#

the issue is that even if I do that, the Hatchet can just say "nah" unless I enforce the movement

granite saddle
#

  1. Then just do that lol

  2. Magnet hands ?

  3. If the movement is enough, people will most likely at least try to use it most of the time

#

those are all and/or

vagrant grotto
#

The issue right now is that Cleaving Retrieval is heckin' loaded already

#

yeah I could like, add some more movement on it but it doesn't feel clean

granite saddle
#

fair enough

#

problem is it has to get close to retrieve, and the targets need to also be close to the retrieved weapons

vagrant grotto
# 
Monomolecular Throwing Axe
Tags: Main Melee, Thrown 5
Weapon Stats: Attack +1/+2/+3, Threat 1, 3/4/5 Kinetic damage
If the attacker is not ENGAGED, this weapon deals double damage (excluding bonus damage).
#

first turn is still awkward, but at least Lock On + Skirmish (thrown) is workable

#

I guess the question is "is this enough to deter getting close regularly"

#

if you're grappleramming while throwing this weapon, you are more likely to get cleaving retrieval off, and it nets you 7/9/11 damage + Slowed (and in a minor AoE)

I guess if you're starting in range, you can throw, walk up, grapple? then next turn Retrieval + whatever

#

or you could... Walk up, Ram, then throw so you get the accuracy. Then next turn retrieval and repeat

#

I'll be real, I do question whether there's an actual "lack of counterplay" when the Hatchet retrieves stuff on the same turn

#

like, any moreso than "there's no counterplay to someone barraging"

#

IDK. I think I'm leaning more towards turning Cleaving Retrieval into a Quick Action that auto-retrieves a weapon, and deals damage/aoe if it was adjacent

#

@granite saddle how often did the AoE damage come up on Cleaving Retrieval

#

considering whether it's a good idea to do a full merge of Flip Kick and Cleaving Retrieval or not

granite saddle
#

it was always close, but never enough

granite saddle
#

making this comment made me realise for the first time that they are, in fact, supposed to be controllers.

#

huh

#

Hmmmm.
Flip kick could absolutely stand to lose its recharge tag if it's supposed to be that integral to its gameplan.
Wondering if the axe could get a skirmisher2/hunter1 -like ability slapped on to help the "get in" part to the "get out" offered by Flip Kick.

#

also, flip kick being mandatorily directly away from the hostile doesn't feel super great, alongside being only 2 spaces. Changing both of these at the same time would most certainly be too much, but changing one could be worth imo.

granite saddle
#

yeah just boosting flip kick could do the trick actually.

The extra movement on the axe doesn't work, because the Hatchet needs that movement when it doesn't have its weapons, not when it already has them.

vagrant grotto
#

Thinking something like

Vicious Retrieval
Trait, Quick Action
Retrieve an adjacent thrown weapon. An adjacent character must make a Hull save or be pushed 2 spaces and become Slowed and unable to take reactions until the end of their next turn. The Hatchet then flies 2 spaces away from the target, ignoring engagement and reactions.
#

That’s been sitting in my drafts for a couple hours so I’m just saying “fuck it” and sending it

#

Don’t pick it apart too much, it’s far from finished

placid glacier
#

A new version of the LCP?

vagrant grotto
#

Not yet, I’m working on a v1.2 though

vagrant grotto
#

What I’m thinking of doing, changing the Throwing Axe and replacing Flip Kick and Cleaving Retrieval:

- Throwing axe: Thrown 5, +1/2/3 to hit, 3/4/5 kinetic. double damage + inflict slowed when not engaged
- Vicious Retrieval: Retrieve a thrown weapon not used to attack this turn, regardless of Range. If the weapon was adjacent to the Hatchet, an adjacent character must pass an Agility save or be pushed 2 spaces away from the Hatchet take 4 kinetic damage, half on success. The Hatchet then flies 3 spaces away from the target, ignoring engagement and reactions.
granite saddle
#

what happens if the hatchet is adjacent to the weapon but there is no second character adjacent to the hatchet ?

vagrant grotto
#

Just pick it up normally

granite saddle
#

fair

#

alright, looks fair enough

#

will you be doing the halved damage thing to all its weapons ?

vagrant grotto
#

No, just the axe

#

The axe is the main deal and has the biggest chunk of damage

granite saddle
#

I'm fine with that

#

oh, sidenote

#

the bola can immobilze even when used as a normal melee weapon. Don't know if you wanna change that, but I thought I'd make you aware of it regardless

#

makes it throw out a lot of immobilize, between attacks every turn and OW (because it's already adjacent)

vagrant grotto
granite saddle
#

Oh that's an easy one

#

it's because I pretend it doesn't

#

(it also has a save target 2 lower across the board, but that doesn't make that much of a difference)

placid glacier
#

From how I've used the hatchet I wish it could keep a little bit of the slow it throws around at least

granite saddle
#

yeah, the axe does it now

#

I'd say it's even better at it now

vagrant grotto
#

It doesn’t do AOE anymore but I don’t think it got much work

placid glacier
#

Oooh I missed that line

vagrant grotto
#

Especially because the hatchet is supposed to be an off-controller

granite saddle
#

I mean sure

#

I just remembered being stuck against some very sticky bola Hatchets once in tony's games, so I figured I'd bring it up while you were on the topic of making it more of a skirmisher; Just in case

vagrant grotto
#

I think these changes to the base kit will do the job

granite saddle
vagrant grotto
#

Yes

#

Doesn’t need scaling damage when its axe scales

#

And any weapons it has

granite saddle
#

yeah so that was just a general change on top of the rework I see

vagrant grotto
#

I think I’m a little worried about Hatchet being a 2-base feature class? But those features are loaded so

#

Last 2-feature class I had was Capacitor and I needed to add Reciprocity by splitting it from the weapon

static kernel
#

are you planning any updates to the napalm or ghost btw? Gonna try to run those sometime but wanted to see if there wwere any changes coming down the pipe @vagrant grotto

vagrant grotto
#

The Napalm changes are to Smolder Charges and Long Burn Catalyst

#

Smolder charge change is just a QOL one so it doesn’t fuck with the napalm’s own shots. Long burn reduces the area to something less obscene

#

Ghost got changed too, breaking change for existing ghosts

#

I reduced the allied heat cost for Quantum Bond to 1, reduced it to a quick action, and replaced Entangling Curse with Ghastly Vigor (gain Bolster, bolster adds +1 diff to tech attacks from enemies)

placid glacier
#

just wondering when those hatchet changes are coming down the pipe too-

vagrant grotto
#

They’ll be a bit, I have a busy week

#

Wanna say next week at best

placid glacier
#

fair dos- was just curious is all since I have a hatchet boss upcoming-

vagrant grotto
#

I still think existing hatchet is serviceable, I’m just planning to refine the base kit

#

Mostly the same collection of effects, but shuffled around in a way that hopefully gets it playing keepaway more

clever wind
#

How have the Overcharge resets been working? I remember when I tried it out it felt a little too much like "first one is free"

vagrant grotto
#

Mostly because I was also writing up larger repair optional rules to reduce repair pressure a bit, thus allow some to be allocated to overcharge resets

ancient solar
#

Am looking at the Mesmerist as a base for a particularly fabulous Ultra. I saw that "Memetic Magnetism" lasts until the start of the target's next turn. Shouldn't it be the end, like the Priest's Abjure?

vagrant grotto
#

It should probably be End of Targets next turn or Start of Mesmerist’s next turn

vagrant grotto
vagrant grotto
#

Aight so planning on adding some more optional rules to this:

Arcing Spotter

Change the Arcing tag to the following:

“This weapon can be fired over obstacles, usually by lobbing a projectile in an arc. Attacks made with this weapon don’t require you to have line of sight, as long as the target is within line of sight of an allied character and it’s possible to trace a path from you to the target; however, they are still affected by cover.”

Heat Seeking

Change the Seeking tag to the following:

“This weapon has a limited form of self-guidance and internal propulsion, allowing it to follow complicated paths to targets with prominent heat signatures. As a result, this weapon ignores cover and doesn’t require line of sight as long as its target is in the Danger Zone and it’s possible to draw a path to the target.”
muted blaze
#

So, it's possible an arcing weapon can't target someone who's a valid target for seeking, or a seeking weapon targeting a valid target with arcing

vagrant grotto
#

Yes

#

I thought it over and decided I wanted the two tags to be less “arcing” and “arcing+”

#

I like the idea of having an allied character spotter for Arcing, since it plays nice with Drone play too (so those arcing artillery mechs can flex their sensors)

muted blaze
#

As much as in want to implement rules like these I hate the concept of implementing it to shit on an existing player build who hasn't really been popping off, but also not abusing seeking (somewhat hard at size 2)

vagrant grotto
#

Deffo get their consent

muted blaze
#

Yeah

vagrant grotto
#

Seeking and Arcing are definitely more of player side tools

#

I just firmly believe that Artillery needs to fight for their meals

#

If I was an archer in Pathfinder 2e or dnd5e my gms would laugh if I asked if I could get a weapon mod at level 3 that lets me ignore cover and line of sight

muted blaze
#

It leads to interesting spots where rainmakers vs lock on targets mean they gain AP and smart but not seeking

vagrant grotto
#

Like, Lancer is an outlier in Tactical RPG land with how accessible that is

vagrant grotto
#

But i think it feels right

muted blaze
#

I think from offhand looking at it before balance. Seeking changes relies too much on a controller/hacker/heatgunner

vagrant grotto
#

Good

#

Learn to hack with those 15-20 sensors or get a hacker buddy

muted blaze
#

It gives cool team comp synergy but to me doesn't scream artillery spotter synergy

vagrant grotto
#

I am coming from a background where no one should have seeking before Tier 3 or the equivalent

IMO, Getting any kind of Seeking should be a rare blessing

vagrant grotto
#

Especially with Recharge Heat in play

muted blaze
#

It to me feels like it will happen as a consequence to having an allied hacker rather than building around it

vagrant grotto
#

Great! That’s fine

muted blaze
#

Maybe disconnecting ignore cover and ignore los as different things?

vagrant grotto
#

Sure, Arcing could be ignore Los and Seeking could be ignore cover?

vagrant grotto
#

With the Danger Zone check in place, that means that artillery needs to coordinate with hacker to hit a priority target

#

They no longer have free, flexible targeting vs everyone in the map

#

The hacker can only paint so many targets in a turn

muted blaze
#

Mmm

#

If arcing was just "ignore LOS" and seeking "ignore cover" then anything that wants both could have both but allows leeway.

Because they're different and RAW, it's just arcing and arcing+. Then I think that having a flanking spotter able to make your shots round corners is cool. But turning off both cover and LOS aspect of seeking to me feels bad...

My friend had an idea, seeking ignores LOS on targets who have lock on, but only ignores cover if lock on is consumed (or on the original in danger zone)

I agree and think the ignore cover and LOS does need to be toned down but it feels like too much of a step up to turn a gandiva from a wet noodle into a god seeking weapon in 1 step if that makes sense

vagrant grotto
#

I’m just trying to keep the tags succinct tbh

muted blaze
#

Fair

vagrant grotto
#

I don’t know, at one point in my brain I had Seeking be “just arcing unless target is in danger zone, then you ignore cover” but I don’t know

muted blaze
#

Cut the flavour text

vagrant grotto
#

Never

muted blaze
#

To me, from vibes and vibes alone. DZ feels like a good way to ignore cover but not a good way to ignore LOS. And I agree with your arcing and arcing+ comment

vagrant grotto
#

Then maybe with Arcing, allow it to bypass Los with Allied LOS or consuming lock on

#

And Seeking is merely ignore cover vs Danger Zone?

#

I don’t know, it seems fiddly to have 2 tags that wanna be paired together (and arguably should ship together if I’m houseruling some seeking weapons) but want different Conditions/Statuses

muted blaze
#

I get you

#

If separated, you don't want to go "add arcing to all these items that rn only have seeking in the crb" because then it becomes way too cumbersome

vagrant grotto
#

Yup

muted blaze
#

But my suggestion is quite wordy

vagrant grotto
#

Or, if I say “fuck it”

#

And carve the Los out

#

It may change how those Seeking weapons play

#

So Smartgun could ignore cover but still need LoS (barring Walking Armory)

muted blaze
#

So that effects nanocomp (deserves it), smartgun, gandiva

#

Guh 🙃

vagrant grotto
#

There’s always the “just nerf Nanocomp” route tbf

muted blaze
#

Yeah...

vagrant grotto
#

So like, slap all these DZ rules on Nanocomp

#

But also, I’m not a fan of Monarch and Rainmaker getting a pass just like that

muted blaze
#

Like, I i wanted to play a monarch and the gandiva didn't ignore LOS then I'd just never equip it...

#

I think ignoring LOS is a more interesting mechanic than cover. Because 80% of the time a target is being targeted outside of LOS they have soft cover, 10% they have hard...

vagrant grotto
#

I mean I also think folks under value range

muted blaze
#

Because the obstructing cover, still counts as soft cover obstruction

muted blaze
#

Seeking is just very potent and IMO "ignore cover" is just boring

vagrant grotto
#

Yeah

muted blaze
#

Like

#

Tbf, if every seeking weapon became arcing I'd be happy lmao

#

I also believe arcing/seeking tech attacks could be fun in some ways

vagrant grotto
#

So like, thing about Gandivas is:

  • it’s smart (diversify targeting) and accurate for strong hit rates
  • it has the damage profile of a Heavy Charged Blade minus the AP
  • it operates at Range 15
  • AND it says fuck your cover/los

at the cost of heavy mount + 1 SP

muted blaze
#

I won't be surprised if I'm desensitisation to the damage and think it's low just because I'm too used to the broken weapons

vagrant grotto
#

I honestly think if you dropped seeking and the 1 SP cost it would still be strong AF

muted blaze
#

Yeah

#

It's also accurate

#

Wait nvm u said that

vagrant grotto
#

“Let me just reliably hit anything on the map for 6.5 average damage” is just very strong imo. And most maps aren’t that big, get to the center and you’re covered

#

Need to finish off that berserker from afar? Got it. Clean up after the melee missed a kill by a few HP? Easy

muted blaze
#

But the fact you can sit in a box in a holdout and shoot out one hole that just gets you kills without aiming...

vagrant grotto
#

Yeah no, I want my game that requires a map to support tactical positioning to have engaging tactical positioning

#

So yeah I’m with you

muted blaze
#

Even arcing imo can involve tactical positioning... because it doesn't ignore cover. I can be here but then I'm still attacking with 1 to 2 difficulty because I'm not flanking

vagrant grotto
#

Yeah

#

So, I wanna test these houserules, finally

muted blaze
#

Yeah

#

I'll suggest them, should be finishing up mission soon so can try house rule them but unfortunately my monarch player who hasn't been seeking will be the only one who suffers

#

However... they plan in swapping to Pinakas

#

Which is surprising and fun

#

What i have gathered:
How to rebalance seeking: replace every instance of seeking with arcing and remove seeking from the game /j

vagrant grotto
granite saddle
#

Arcing : ignore LoS with allied visiblity (using "visibility" for ATHENA compatibility)

Seeking : something to do with allies' sensors could be fun I think. Allies only though, yours shouldn't count.

#

Mainly I just want Athena to be able to spot, the thing it's supposed to do y'know ?

muted blaze
#

Real

#

Athena is my favourite nhp

#

Idk why

vagrant grotto
#

Blast 3 Area of Knowledge and Lock Ons is pretty great

#

Like that’s a huge area denial tool

granite saddle
vagrant grotto
#

“Stand here and suffer harder”

vagrant grotto
#

Ghost got some love, Hatchet got a reworked base kit, and the New Kids all got tweaks/improvements. Torrent in particular got a lot of love

#

ton of optional rules too

#

Feels good to get all this off my chest haha

static kernel
#

oh, the magpie change is very interesting. Could do something weird with a self-sacrificial support vulture now

vagrant grotto
#

Looking forward to what everyone brews up! 😄

foggy wadi
#

just in time for todays session :)

ashen crown
#

Out of curiosity- in terms of content, how “complete” is Prototype Pattern Groups in terms of what will be included? I understand things are subject to change and feedback is being sought, but I presume templates like the Brigand won’t be getting more optional features- and other such things? As is, more “stuff” won’t be added, just changed to be better balanced

granite saddle
vagrant grotto
vagrant grotto
granite saddle
#

But yeah, I'll try to test it again if I get the chance

vagrant grotto
#

Last playtest info I got on it was an Empakaai using Paracausal Mod, so like, yeah if someone invests the LLs and SP sure

#

Still a better stat line than CRB Bastion in that case

granite saddle
#

The paracausal nanocarb attacked it maybe once so that wasn't it

#

I tried to play dirty with it too, but it being on top of a height 3 raised area means a lot less when a Barb's in play, didn't even need the gandiva's seeking to see the guy

vagrant grotto
#

Sounds like it needed to be on lower ground then, at least

#

But point taken, after looking at Sentinel’s stat line and scaling

granite saddle
#

You can shred/paraco&adjacent/hit the actual guy to ignore the Prism's resist, while there are like maybe 5? effects to straight-up bypass invisibility

#

Is mainly my point

vagrant grotto
granite saddle
#

Yes, that was my point exactly : turning off seeking works less against a Barb because odds are, he just already sees you anyways

vagrant grotto
#

I mean you mentioned there being height 3 cover so I assumed “standing behind the height 3 cover” was an option here

#

I’ll keep an eye out for additional durability reports on the Prism

granite saddle
vagrant grotto
#

Got it, sounds like it needed a railing or something to crouch behind, but got it

granite saddle
#

Probably yeah

#

Mfw they didn't put railings on the cliff (this is a serious safety violation)

vagrant grotto
#

@placid glacier since you were asking after the Hatchet changes, wanted to ping you in case it was still relevant

placid glacier
#

Oh yeah I did see the update, I just haven't gotten around to grabbing the file, thanks for the ping tho!

granite saddle
#

The more I think about it the more I want to just. Do a re-run of my playtest with other players + the balance changes

#

I'll throw the map in here, you tell me if you want to adjust it a bit, and I'll try to look for an open time in my schedule.

#

I'll also get to test the exotic tsunami Torrent I wanted

vagrant grotto
#

Do as you please tbh

granite saddle
#

Also, quick note on weaker NPC invades, especially on playing with DZ : I've only ever used them against already-hot targets, to punish cocky heatgamers, so depending on what you want, it's either a sign to not do it or absolutely do it.

vagrant grotto
#

I don’t know what “sign” you’re attempting to divine here?

#

Goal of reducing the heat was so that a Hornet couldn’t just Overheat a 0-Eng Blackbeard in a single turn

#

Should still be fine opportunistically?

#

I don’t know

#

If it’s too much of a nerf I’ll consider my alternatives

#

But paired with everything else I think it’s fine

granite saddle
#

Yeah, you just mentionned thinking about DZ interactions in your update devlog, so I'd thought I'd give my thoughts on it.

vagrant grotto
#

Ah

#

Okay

#

I understand where you’re coming from now

granite saddle
#

Main thing I'd see being used for the DZ/not DZ would be splitting the heat and impared and only applying one of the two when out or in DZ

vagrant grotto
#

Maybe, I don’t know. Issue still exists where an NPC with Heat generation can push someone into DZ and then “punish” them with a heavier invade

granite saddle
#

Hmm. 2 heat + impaired but you only apply one effect vs targets in DZ is a fun concept. Neither here nor there, but I'm keeping it in my back pocket anyways.

granite saddle
vagrant grotto
#

Exactly yeah

#

Rubbing up against “lancer made some base frame stats way too low”

#

Like the repairs issue

granite saddle
#

White witch...😔
(The goblin has it better, it doesn't also have 6 e-def)

#

Main reason I suggested buffing it up a bit together with your armor nerf a while ago

granite saddle
#

Oh, about your repair rules : thoughts on allowing ejection to be repaired ?
And while on the topic of eject, thoughts on making it ignore reactions ?

vagrant grotto
#

Wasn’t on my mind but that all sounds reasonable

granite saddle
#

It's the little things. (I got ronin overwatched by ejecting in my second ever lancer session. Always remember : heavy hardsuit is your best friend.)

#

Thank Ra it was Tier 1 tbh.

vagrant grotto
#

Yeah no that’s. Oof

#

I think that’s reasonable because I’ve heard enough stories of folks killing ejecting pilots with an overwatch

#

And I’d rather not have that as an option

granite saddle
#

Right ?

vagrant grotto
#

It’s just bad mouthfeel on both sides of the screen

muted blaze
#

Half playtest data from lifting and dragging rules:
After Ll1 I implemented the rules because my players were complaining about escort objectives being the 3rd other thing (also that it was a size 1/2 objective and at the time I didn't allow them in an expanded compartment) but my players didn't have a generally good time

I added these rules and like... 2 weeks ago we used the rules for the first time but had to be reverted back.

These balances could be taken as a grain of salt because my presentation of the rules could be poor but thr reception from the players was generally confusion and annoyance. One player said that "it's good to classify an objective as something that isn't an other thing. But it now feels more limited than before because of the action cost"

The action cost didnt feel too fun, and wspecially for a width 35 map, whoch is generally medium to large width to move an objective the QA cost somewhat removes the intended ability to leapfrog without massive QA cost

#

About halfway through i relented and turned back to L:EC rules part way through. Sorry it was a poor playtest but I was playing campaign first. It was poorly communicated across but those who did get what was going on didn't like it because it felt more limiting than before because of the QA cost

#

Next mission ill slip in an end of mission feedback so I'll ask a bit more on player feedback

granite saddle
#

Hmm. Makes me think I should go into detail into my feedback on these rules. I'll write it this evening.

vagrant grotto
#

That said, it may just not be a good table fit. I run small maps so leap frogging isn’t as necessary a tactic. The issue then becomes “who has the actions to grab this” instead of setting up leaps

muted blaze
#

I think it might just be that

#

The rules are cool but differ from table playstyles

vagrant grotto
#

The ultimate goal is to have

  1. some sort of actual action, even if it’s a formality, to initiate the drag
  2. leverage existing rules for dragging to make it usable for any item
muted blaze
#

Mmm

#

That keeps it somewhat similar to vanilla which is neat

#

And also means enemies don't need to sink in as much action cost to contest

#

Unfortunately for the rest of the adventure (in the next immediate levels) there's no planned escorts lmao

vagrant grotto
#

lol, lmao

#

Yeah my OG blogpost kept the action ambiguous for this exact purpose lol

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I might add those variants as options

vagrant grotto
#

Thinking about the Anchor again… it’s one of the Core 8 that just doesn’t excite me like it used to

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Wondering if there’s something that would give it some more pizzazz, but I don’t know

vagrant grotto
#

Also dangerously close to making the Brisk template a thing

muted blaze
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Brisk templaye?

vagrant grotto
vagrant grotto
frosty mural
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LOL

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I do really like this but holy crap that's funny

vagrant grotto
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Unsure if the humor undermines some of this supplement but hey I thought it was funny haha

vagrant grotto
#

Digging some new Brigand tech out of the box:

Enforce Limiters
System, Recharge 5+, Quick Tech
The Brigand enforces reactor limiters on one hostile mech in SENSORS that can OVERCHARGE. The target must pass an ENGINEERING save or become OVERHEATED (CONDITIONS & STATUSES, APPENDIX A) until they remove the limiters with a successful ENGINEERING check as a full action.

Lockout
System, Recharge 6+, Full Tech
The Brigand forces a hostile mech within SENSORS to make a SYSTEMS or ENGINEERING save (target’s choice). On a failure, the Brigand disables 1/2/3 of the target’s systems until the end of the scene. Disabled equipment cannot be ACTIVATED, its passive effects are suppressed, and ongoing effects caused by that equipment immediately end.

The target may end this effect with a successful SYSTEMS or ENGINEERING check as a full action.
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and a new trait:

VANDALIZE
Trait, 1/scene

On a critical hit with a weapon attack against a PRONE target, the Brigand may force the target to make a HULL save. On a failure, the Brigand destroys all weapons on one of the target’s mounts.
vagrant grotto
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honestly looking for feedback on this last one, I'm not sure if I've gated the effect enough

ancient solar
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To me it seems likely to go unused and extremely random. I'd increase both the reliability and the cost to use it. Maybe something more like "As a quick action against an adjacent prone target"? or "when the brigand inflicts system trauma, it may choose which weapon or system is destroyed"?

granite saddle
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@ancient solar That last one sounds fun, especially with the system trauma/dazed optional rule

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Enforce Limiters : Spite : the game optional

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Also, on lockout :
Might want to add an "up to" to the number of systems, to avoid the "no systems lol" problem. What about mods, spent limited systems, destroyed systems, that kinda thing.
Or just a consolation prize if the target hasn't got enough systems, so it's not a complete waste.

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The brigand itself is the one to choose right ?

vagrant grotto
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yes

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That is the intent behind the wording "the Brigand disables"

granite saddle
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Right. That got through fine btw, just wanted to be sure.

static kernel
vagrant grotto
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@ancient solar @granite saddle For Vandalize: Something like this?

Vandalize
Trait

If the Brigand inflicts structure damage, it may choose for its target to suffer System Trauma instead of the result of its structure damage check. If so, the Brigand chooses if a system or weapon mount is destroyed, as well as which one.
granite saddle
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It's on the right track imo.
Especially if you get the forgiving repairs n' stuff, otherwise it could suck, unreasonably so.
Might want to dial back some of these : only choose weapon or system, not which one ? Only choose which one, but give the choosing of weapon or system back to the dice (or even the player if needs be) ?

vagrant grotto
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nah, I'm gonna let this ride

granite saddle
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Needs more evaluating to decide, but this version is a solid base to refine with feedback I'd say.

vagrant grotto
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and cool cool

granite saddle
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Uh oh

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Just thought of an SCL with this

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Awful I love it

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(awful for the players of course)

vagrant grotto
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Hey you’re right, Sniper stonks went up too

granite saddle
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Ofc, that one was obvious. It's just a lot more balanced than CRB SCL, y'know ?

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Also, gotta love allowing the snipers to actually shoot that gun out your hands

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Or precision-target X system, works too

placid glacier
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Was able to use the updated Hatchet with Champion and Pirate

The slow application felt way more reliable with it being attached to the throwing axe and reckless dive felt better as well even though the combat was a bit short

vagrant grotto
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Alright I have added the aforementioned 3 features to brigand and made the Brisk template. They’ll likely ship in v1.3, but I don’t want to cut a release until I get some more feedback on v1.2

muted blaze
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V1.3, the template update

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Add the aunic and other ideas lol

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Dooo iiiiit

vagrant grotto
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Literally have no ideas for it yet lol

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Haven’t read the draft

muted blaze
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Come to aunic minds we have:

  • summon the sun
  • power word kill
  • power word forget everything you know
vagrant grotto
# muted blaze Come to aunic minds we have: - summon the sun - power word kill - power word for...

Thought of something:

Rewrite History
Trait
On a critical hit, the target must make a save using a Pilot Trigger of their choice. On a failure, move all ranks from that trigger to a different trigger (chosen at random), the pilot takes AP damage equal to the ranks in that trigger, and if piloting a mech, the mech takes heat equal to the ranks in that trigger. This can only affect a character 1/scene.
muted blaze
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Holy fuck what

vagrant grotto
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Hahahahahaha

muted blaze
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That's silly, but then so are all the aunic powers

vagrant grotto
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Attack every part of the character sheet!!!!

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But it’s cool because the player can choose how hard they wanna go

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Throwaway the 1-rank skill trigger, or go hard for the 3-rank skill trigger? Decisions decisions

muted blaze
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"Fuck you"
removes your charismatic talking ability and puts it into C++ knowledge

muted blaze
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I think with traits like those I'm unsure if I'd ever use them but I really like it

vagrant grotto
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Another one that sprang to mind was “Disable talent ranks as an effect” and name it “dulling of memory” or something

muted blaze
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Oooh

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That's gnarly

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I like

vagrant grotto
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Mech skill points may also be on the radar for that, but they’re wonky because they tie into mech building a lot

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Like, system points and SP

granite saddle
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That is simply too both mean and permanent for me to ever use it, but I'd be willing to if it was tied to like; a 10-segment special burden that doesn't take up the slot, and cannt be invoked for difficulty&+1exp

vagrant grotto
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Another that grants a clone quirk

vagrant grotto
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But yes burden good

granite saddle
granite saddle
vagrant grotto
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I said talent ranks and pilot skills

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And I only said pilot skills would be “long lasting” so far

granite saddle
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Wait talent ranks ?

vagrant grotto
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Don’t read into this too hard

granite saddle
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I might have misread some of that hold on

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Yeah pilot skills can't be retrained, same with HASE RAW

vagrant grotto
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Ah. Didn’t plan on it being permanent for HASE anyway

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I’ll probably say “spend a downtime action” to fix the pilot triggers maybe, or “spend a downtime action using the old trigger to get it back, success or failure”

granite saddle
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Yeah, fair

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I mean, fun concept ofc, but something that impactful is predictably gonna require a bit of thinking about yeah, no rush

granite saddle
sudden cosmos
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I used a torrent today and made a sprite for it very fast

image.png
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Players seemed to enjoy it well enough. Very tanky and speedy. Handed them a solid L as a result.

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My main thought is that Storm Surge seems like it can easily get stuffed by overwatch, not that that's difficult from other characters with movement abilities

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I think similar movements take a full action even with a recharge, and maybe my issue was using it anywhere near a white witch, but it ignoring reactions felt like it made sense

placid glacier
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hm I was planning on running a Spite Boss for the capstone encounter of my next mission but the torrent seems interesting

sudden cosmos
vagrant grotto
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Though, maybe I should go a little harder

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Instead of moving without engagement, have it push itself that distance

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I don’t know, I like Breach Ram and how it knocks folks back and prones, but didn’t want to just duplicate it on Torrent

sudden cosmos
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Honestly the idea of all of its self movement being involuntary is kinda neat

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Also allows it to move about in its cones a little more easily

vagrant grotto
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It’s definitely a cute idea haha

ancient solar
#

Ran a customized Elite Commander Mesmerist as a boss encounter and players said the theming was really cool. I made some modifications to the mechanics:

  • I has an extremely painful overwatch but nothing that helps it land. I gave it "When a hostile character within range 3 moves away from the Mesmerist, it counts as difficult terrain."
  • Since it replenishes images over time, it is vulnerable to burst damage. This doesn't feel right for a defender that wants to draw aggro. I gave it a flat 3 mirror images that only replenish on structure damage. I made the images destroy regardless of hit-or-miss to avoid weird situations where a miss would be better than a hit. I also traded some evasion for 1 armor to encourage a strategy of "small attacks against the images, then big attacks against the real one"
  • Codespike Rapier + Prepare seems broken. I refrained from using it beyond "prepare to strike when someone enters threat range" which gave it a nice fencer/defender feel, but as-is it's open to abuse.
  • I wanted to screw with support players who like to target allies, so I replaced Memetic Magnetism with "The Mesmerist makes a tech attack against a target within SENSORS. On a success, the target can only draw line of sight to adjacent spaces until the end of their next turn. The Mesmerist always counts as being in their line of sight for the same duration, regardless of obstructions."
  • I didn't change the rapier, but while playing I found that the Heat inflicted by a T3 Codespike Rapier was rather extreme. I think it scales up too much.
    But overall I liked the design quite a lot. It's a cool idea that made for a memorable boss that none of the CRB enemies would have worked for.
vagrant grotto
# ancient solar Ran a customized Elite Commander Mesmerist as a boss encounter and players said ...

Nice, thank you for the feedback!

I see what you mean about the Overwatches, but I’m not sure of a great way to “make it land” more often. First thing I think of is “change Memetic Magnetism to add an alternative Overwatch trigger” but that seems a little much. I can think about it more but I think I’m okay with where it is?

I’m a little confused on what you consider Burst Damage and would appreciate clarification on how the “math” works out with baseline Mirror Image?

Noted on Prepare synergy; it’ll shut off any other Mesmerist reactions leading up to it at least, but it does seem like it inverts the “stay here” into “keep away”. I’ll mull over restricting it to Overwatch and adjusting the reaction optional to suit.

The Memetic Magnetism change makes sense. I could see expanding the default effect to any action that doesn’t include the Mesmerist to enhance the Controller vibe? But that may be busted in an AoE. To a degree I’m okay with Supports being able to play around them. Though, isn’t the new NARCISSUS Override what you describe?

Noted on the T3 heat on Codespike, it might be overtuned. I appreciate the T3 playtest info!

ancient solar
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I am comparing the overwatchiness to Sentinel w/Impaler, which has 3 threat and Eye of Midnight to work with. Compared to that it's quite easy to escape, but if you can't it's almost never a good choice to trigger it. Doesn't make for as interesting choices.

Baseline Mesmerist wants to only be attacked while invisible. It creates about 1 image per turn on average, each of which on average dodges about one third of a successful hit. Its ideal scenario is to be attacked about 4 times every 3 rounds: more than that and the invisibility runs out, less and the extra images go unused. Players should want to focus it down quickly before it makes more images. However, it seems out of character for the Mesmerist to run away and wait for the images to regenerate. The Priest has a very similar ability but it DOES want to run and hide, so it works there.

Okay, I guess I based the tech attack on Narcissus Override and then forgot. I wanted it to be more of a core ability so I weakened it, moved it to a Quick Tech, and removed the cooldown. I also wanted a Core Ability that worked at longer range; as-is it has no way to affect distant targets or make them approach. It must go to them, which seems backwards.

It WAS nice to be able to stand on a control point and prepare a nasty attack. It felt like both an area-defender and a fencer. But on the other hand a "mesmerist" seems like it should draw players closer, not drive them away. So I dunno.

vagrant grotto
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Well there’s also Hypnotic Attraction in the optionals if that also pleases you

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I appreciate the feedback regardless

ancient solar
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I did use it, actually!

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...but it missed.

vagrant grotto
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I don’t think the “run and hide” play is that great for Mesmerist tbf, since it eats a lot of movement and such and can’t actually “hide”. I don’t know, I’ll keep an eye out for more feedback if Mirror Image is underperforming

ancient solar
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Yeah, most of them probably won't ever use it more than once or twice so it doesn't matter.

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My players used their big attacks on it while invisible and simply got lucky.

vagrant grotto
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Sounds about right for Invis Dodge tanking yeah

ancient solar
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But if you wanted to strengthen it, this problem might emerge.

vagrant grotto
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I don’t think I was planning on strengthening it

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But if I did I’d probably consider making it a “charged” Deathcounter effect maybe. Or a stacking difficulty or something.

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I’ll see how additional testing goes

ancient solar
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Oh, wait, Hypnotic Attraction didn't miss; the player in question had Spaceborne.

vagrant grotto
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Happy to reward the Spaceborn enjoyers haha

ancient solar
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Could be something like "Invisible against the first attack each turn" I guess.

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But that's just my personal preference

vagrant grotto
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Invis vs first attack doesn’t save it from bad coin flips haha

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In any case thank you again for the feedback and I will take it into consideration

rare panther
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moved to here:

On the topic of Prisms...

how does the Prism's diffraction beam work when they are like, behind cover shooting through a projection

is the diffractor target just out of luck because they can only draw line of sight to the prism but they are behind a wall so they can't shoot it, or...?

vagrant grotto
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It occupies the projector’s space as part of the effect

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So the affected target can see the Prism only, but from all spaces the Prism occupies

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Does that answer your question?

rare panther
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Yes! Thank you. <3

granite saddle
#

oh btw, too bad you're already full on Hatchet optionnals, 'cause I just had a fun idea :
an effect for characters in the line between the Hatchet and a weapon it retrieves from range

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Mind you, it's probably not a good idea

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But does it sound like a fun one ?
ohohohohohoho

vagrant grotto
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I have yet to hear anyone use return to sender so

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Noted

granite saddle
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it sounds so fun, but is soooo situational it kills me

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I want to use it but also need to get to use it

vagrant grotto
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Find a Sunzi with warp grenades

granite saddle
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(almost suggested to make it a rider-on effect for that one actually, once again thinking in a similar direction)

granite saddle
#

never thought about that one whu-

placid glacier
vagrant grotto
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yeah, it's very much a "niche optional" I included because it felt like fun flavor

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but, of course, if it's niche... when will it get used lol

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maybe I should expand it to ranged attacks too

placid glacier
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I mean. Yeah gravitated towards it cus "Oh that sounds hilarious actually" and none of my party use grenades or have speced into hunter so it's kinda a dead optional

granite saddle
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you hate arcing and seeking right ?

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make it trigger against only those for ranged attacks

vagrant grotto
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lol

granite saddle
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(flavor fits a bit better for the arcing ones than just "general ranged attacks")

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also, I'd say unrestrict the re-throw a bit at least

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I'd like for it to not be "all ranged attacks", 'cause then it just becomes "Reckless dive, but again"

vagrant grotto
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got it

granite saddle
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if somone asks "why seking too ? (in the fiction)" always remeber the answer to all of your problems :

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MAGNET HANDS

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once again, "it works because magnets" == "it works because magic"