#Prototype Pattern Groups

1 messages · Page 2 of 1

vagrant grotto
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(I agree that Elite Cataphract sounds like an optimal use case for Tempered yeah)

muted blaze
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Veteran crusader: Similar situation... An enemy which was both a BIG problem, and also a trivial pushover simultaneously. I believe this is probs because between 2 homebrew sets of rules (PPG and L:EC) there is a clash in design ideology. The crusader has CRAZY stats, At T1, 20 hp 2 armour! With an optional weapon to boost that to 3 armour and give guardian! The Crusaders main thing is "everyone in this bubble of 3 gets buffed and enemies get pain" It boasts a terrible heat cap (5) as its main vulnerability and a lot of its buff abilities rely on being recharge 6. So an idea world I imagine a crusader will sit in the middle of a bunch of enemies and go "Quick action buff, quick action recharge 6 second buff" then next activation they pop a different recharge 6 buff. But after popping 1 ability this IMMEDIATELY pushes them into danger zone, even with tempered which they need with these rules as they will struggle with their job for longer than 2 activations if they need to stabilise after each of them, popping 2 recharge 6 abilities with tempered WILL still cause them to pop a stress.

Alas, this is not core rulebook so I doubt you need to fully care about it :P

How I feel about it, I assume this optional will synergise very well with 1 stress rule as it punishes the enemies if the players keep up the pressure but doesn't instantly shut them down. With basic self destruct rules it feels like it can make a heatgunner player thrive, and kill enemies as pushovers with trivial effort (But despite this they were killing the enemies at a good pace anyway). It can really well balance some enemies with decent heat caps and low recharge abilities but suffers at the extremes of low heat cap, high recharges and heatgunner player builds. It overall "nerfs" the enemies which incentivizes me to implement potentially more to patch the hole but that would make the situation worse?

vagrant grotto
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Crusader sounds like it has an absolutely reasonable stat line (I adopt a similar stat line for a few of my NPCs)

muted blaze
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Fair

vagrant grotto
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The double recharge 6+ is definitely something to consider though, esp on stuff like Witch

muted blaze
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I'm comparing it to the other 2, 3 armour NPC's bastions and pyros but they can also kinda be pushovers as well if you have AP lol

vagrant grotto
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I personally find Bastions to be pushovers period, and aim to make bulkier NPCs than them

muted blaze
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Totally valid

vagrant grotto
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I could share my math on Effective HP vs Grit at some point

muted blaze
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I've had newer players struggle with pyros and bastions due to not knowing how to deal with armour

vagrant grotto
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But yeah also, depending on design the Crusader could benefit from double tempered

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I made Tempered and Recharge heat with CRB in mind, not Wallflower philosophy NPCs in mind (aka lower base heat caps)

muted blaze
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I have more opinions but I don't know how to phrase them, but overall it's positive. Like I said I have just figured out the trickiest spot is the extreme cases of enemies. I think a bright side of low heat cap, high recharge/heat abilities does lead to enemies which are on the board are allowed to do their cool things but the more they exist (if I don't deal with the heat) does allow the players to push them over their limits and capitilise on it, which gives a cool counterplay. The problem is I don't think the players know that this counter play is happening... A player (melee) went "I guess I'll invade the crusader" and was a bit surprised when the first invade popped their stress

Alas, in the future I'll experiment with more tempered templates... This IS my first combat with it after all with this so would be a tad skewed

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Excited to see more of what happens :D

vagrant grotto
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Thank you for the feedback and happy to hear more when/if you have it! Good food for thought

muted blaze
vagrant grotto
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True, though in context of the optional rule, they would have high heat abilities akin to Scourer which leaves them vulnerable to popping

muted blaze
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tru tru

vagrant grotto
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Regardless I do think you have a point

muted blaze
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TBH, I think I found a real rare edge case... Looking at the wallfower NPCs, If they were all vet/commander/elites, etc I think they could live without tempered... Avenger has no recharge abilities, lurker has 1 recharge 4 which is a moderate amount, Strider has 1 recharge 4 reaction. Spite would be hit the hardest, with 2 recharge 4's and a recharge 6. But it isn't a major part of the kit and I think the spite doesn't suffer as much from relatively frequent stabilisation

vagrant grotto
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Well, Cataphract and Witch are valid cases for this too

muted blaze
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yes yes

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Hornets I can also see having problems

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Eeeh, less so

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But 5 heat cap and a single recharge 5 ability

vagrant grotto
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Yeah hm. I’m kinda ok with that though since Impale Systems hits like a truck sometimes

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Big hmmm though

muted blaze
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Little flying flee deserves to explode 😤

vagrant grotto
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Yeah part of my philosophy on Recharge heat for normals is that I don’t expect them to last longer than 3 rounds

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And that’s being generous

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Granted I guess there’s target prioritization in play here but yeah if you’re gonna bite it in 2 rounds I don’t care as much if the Recharge 5/6 ability fills over half their heat bar

muted blaze
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Yeah I see that, I kinda figured when it says tempered only works if you have more than 1 stress/structure. I think it suffered being a double budget sitrep, + The controllers were doinng a very good job controlling the players so the DPS's of the party couldn't through combination of jammed from sapper kit, hives immobilising, the cataphract FILTHILY STEALING the artillery from under the drakes grasp, there was a LOT. Player target priority they were saying to me and each other was "everyone"

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Oh and witch shutting down the drake with blind

vagrant grotto
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Just had a wacky idea for an Artillery/Defender NPC:

MIRROR
Artillery/Defender

Base Features:

Reflector Drone: Can use to extend range by “bouncing” bullets and hold territory. However, shooting the drone can damage the MIRROR (it reflects back). 

Mirror Shot: Line 10, can extend again if it hits a Mirror Drone

Crush Targeting - As-is except Reflector drones count as targeting the MIRROR.```
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The Reflector Drones are how I reconcile the contradiction between the goals of Artillery and Defender: They both serve as “safety”/range extension but also allow the Mirror to hold territory and draw aggro despite not being in the frontline

Objective Defender wants to hold a point, Damage Management Defender wants to direct damage towards itself, and Artillery wants to kill anything on the point (but not typically hold said point)

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Suji has informed me that this exists in Beacon and I think I may crib notes from it haha

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I thin this’ll round out the “next 4” I wanna make for this project

granite saddle
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It also seems kinda similar to realspace breach, if we're talking about "still in the lancer system" so might want to look at it just in case

vagrant grotto
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Yup yup that’s on my mind

sullen grotto
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I had a moment to try the capacitor in a combat. Ive been doing this Tourney arc in my campaign, so even when Ive been using some of the PPG npcs, they have been pretty off base.
however, the Capacitor was pretty on model, and I got to see how its systems interplayed.

Overall, I like the Capacitor a lot. I love the optional that lets allies cleanse on shield, as its something that allows some enemies out of the hard counter jam (Suldan Jumper getting Vlad Nailgunned to the floor) without neutralizing player interaction or introducing an ultra.
I also like that the Capacitor can play to the state of battle, and is easy to kill by the players.

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Its movement meant that it had what it needed to reposition, and the shielding it gives isnt too much. So its annoying enough to prioritize, but not overbearing.

vagrant grotto
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Okay then that sounds perfect imo, it’s a delicate needle to thread

sullen grotto
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Exactly. It also was faced up against an emporer. So it was Bow V Bow across a valley.

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I also got use out of Arc Feedback several times, and I think it and Marathon as base equipment is a perfect pairing.
Quickening bolt actully didnt get used as much, but that points to something that could possibly be missing.

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Always defering to expertise of course, I noticed several times there was at most a posibility to place either 3-4 overshield on an enemy.
When I got a good shot off and got my most abused NPC covered, there wasnt a reason to use quickening because giving them one more point wasnt really worth it.

What might make it usefull is two options in my mind:
1: Quickening bolt specifically gets an option that when used on someone who is already shielded, that unit gains a lesser bonus that adds to what they already have (like instead +2 when used on someone who already has shield)

2: Another optional system that allows some form of shield stacking in a balanced way. A reason to use shielding on people who already have shielding. (seems possibly hard to balance.)

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To be clear, the issue is there was easily situations where already shielded allies essentially became targets that "werent worth" covering

vagrant grotto
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I'd sooner just make Quickening Bolt a little more good on its own, I think, but that's good to note on the "too much overshield" front

sullen grotto
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honestly a side fix would be "when you apply shields X happens" system. Then youd have reason to reshield people. Like arc of damage similar to the emp's bonus damage systems

vagrant grotto
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mm sure makes sense

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it's something I'd need to put as a base feature, because making it an Optional wouldn't solve the problem with Quickening bolt

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I'll consider this feedback though

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I do worry about things getting a little too fiddly

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I'll mull it over, and maybe test it out later

sullen grotto
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It does make me understand why the emp has so many extra effects to what its doing. It needs other reasons to keep doing what its doing, because its having the same issues as the capacitor here: Not enough targets to have bare bodies in need of shields.

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so it needs bonus incentives

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or just things to be doing

vagrant grotto
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Posting this here to gauge interest before I try to fill from recruiting. Currently have 3 seats filled, 1 seat remaining

granite saddle
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Gotta say, I don't fully agree with some of your houserules, but all the rest are just so dang good that it doesn't really matter actually. Might have a few thoughts/questions on some too, but I'll say that later.
As for the game, as long as we can stick to the 4h/4h30 duration, I'm good to go. I'm fine with being a backup though (as in, fill the spot first, and only if you need/want 1 more guy then you tell me).

vagrant grotto
granite saddle
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was actually writing said feedback here rn

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Still PMs or here is fine ?

vagrant grotto
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Pms please, I’d like to keep this channel focused on my NPC homebrew

granite saddle
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on it, boss

muted blaze
vagrant grotto
muted blaze
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Ooooh fair

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Cool cool

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I'll keep it here then... when next relevant

vagrant grotto
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Much appreciated! 😄

muted blaze
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when next session occurs 😭

vagrant grotto
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I generally prefer keeping it on a server I just didn’t have a good place for the house rule feedback yet

muted blaze
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Where are your house rules that aren't here?

inland pilot
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hope the testing goes smooth either way, the NPCs especially - those can be a pain to get proper testing with sometimes lmao

vagrant grotto
vagrant grotto
inland pilot
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absolutely - i've found that sometimes an NPC can fail spectacularly, and that can be* a good and intended result

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it means its weaknesses are functioning as expected

vagrant grotto
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that's very true; I think my weathervane metrics are primarily gonna be:

  • How threatening do the PCs think the thing is/is such a response appropriate
  • If I have 2 of these on a map at the same time, how oppressive is it
  • If it gets 1 unimpeded turn, can it do its job in a satisfactory way
inland pilot
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yeah, that looks good

clever wind
vagrant grotto
clever wind
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mark me down for (1) PPG playtest ticket please

vagrant grotto
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@granite saddle I’ll keep you updated if anyone drops

granite saddle
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Or if you decide "fuck it. 5 players time." I don't judge.

vagrant grotto
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Keeping it to 4 for now but if I change my mind you’ll be the first to know haha

granite saddle
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ofc ofc, mainly joking.
That said, someone running a 5 PCs playtest at some point could be useful, don't know how many of those you've had feedback from already.

vagrant grotto
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Don’t recall, would need to check my test logs

clever wind
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was extremely tempted to go Amber Phantom but you don't need to deal with that AP's nonsense while playtesting

sullen grotto
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BTW, in the LCP for PPG Cyclic Discharg doesnt specify the damage type of the bonus damage ( I am assuming energy)

vagrant grotto
sullen grotto
vagrant grotto
# sullen grotto

IDK if it matters much, I could make it explicit, but it just means it could default to Kinetic or one of the types it deals by rules of Bonus Damage

sullen grotto
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oh yeah, i was more just bringing it up to your attention in case it was an error

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on my end i just ran it as energy under the assumption it inherits weapon base damage

muted blaze
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RAW: Bonus damage cannot be burn or heat unless specified otherwise, otherwise you can choose any of the original damage types for it to be. If there are none applicable it defautls to kinetic

vagrant grotto
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Oh @muted blaze by the way unrelated to my NPCs but you know how we had the same ideas for Operator changes? Well I ran a normal Operator on Saturday, with this version of the Raptor:

Raptor Plasma Rifle
Heavy Rifle, +2/+4/+6
[Line 10][5/7/9 energy]

Honestly? It was great. I lined up an initial shot for 2 with Step but they had some Omnidirectional Soft Cover due to a smoke grenade (good for them!) then I Trace Drived the operator to safe high ground

Second turn with them, I had them teleport down, boost across the field, and teleport on another higher ground to fire a shot that caught 3 PCs in a row. It earned some defensive resources, laid down some pressure, but ultimately didn’t feel oppressive. Folks mentioned it could’ve possibly dealt more damage, but I would only give it 1 more if pressed. Played the role of Skirmisher very well

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Players ended the combat before it could act again but I was happy with it

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The System Trauma Structure and 1 Stress changes also went over well, players liked that the NPCs had to make hard choices with their Daze and heat

muted blaze
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So assume with those changes it basically isn't an artillery anymore lol

vagrant grotto
muted blaze
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Fair, I just viewed it as "range 10" is around striker distance

vagrant grotto
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I personally rate range 10 as a “flex range” for both strikers and artillery

clever wind
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general notes (we went over these but leaving em here for record)

  • zealot feels like it could do more; especially since without its optionals it has kinda limited range. that said brand the heretic is very fun optional
  • I still think the hatchet attack pattern is a little busy, but not unmanagable. the larger problem is that it doesn't feel like there's any real counterplay to cleaving retrieval; it might as well just be a 1/round free action.
  • no real complaints about the anchor, I like where it is, maybe you should be able to shut down the lodestone by overheating? or not, just wondering
vagrant grotto
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Appreciate it! 😄

vagrant grotto
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Rewording Zeal to add an Involuntary Movement immunity:

Zeal
Trait, 2 Heat (Self), Protocol
The Zealot emanates a Burst 3 area of fervent energy. While within the area, characters gain the following:

• Allied characters gain IMMUNITY to hostile involuntary movement, and their attacks gain AP against targets within the Zealot’s SENSORS.
• Hostile characters that have any Burn lose INVISIBLE and HIDDEN and can’t regain either status until they leave the area.

This area lasts until the start of the Zealot’s first turn each round or until the Zealot is STUNNED, JAMMED, overheated, or destroyed.
vagrant grotto
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Hatchet is getting tweaks too, in addition to lowering its E-Def from 8/8/8 to 7/7/7:

Cleaving Retrieval
Tags: Trait, 1/round
Effect: When the Hatchet retrieves a THROWN weapon not used to attack this turn, all hostile characters adjacent to the Hatchet must pass an AGILITY save or take 4/5/6 Kinetic damage and become SLOWED until the end of their next turn.

Flip Kick
Tags: Trait, Recharge 5+, Quick Action
Effect: One adjacent character must pass a HULL save or be pushed 2 spaces away from the Hatchet and knocked PRONE. Regardless of the result, the target cannot take reactions until the end of this turn, and the Hatchet flies 2 spaces away from the target.
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Cleaving Retrieval nets 1 more point of damage but requires a turn of setup first, akin to Scourer (but different since an Elite could technically use it the same round, but only once/round).

I justify this damage bump due to loss of control over when it's beneficial to pick up the weapon; melee characters deserve higher potency for the risk and lack of target flexibility

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The nice thing to consider, too, is that the dropped thrown weapon is now its own "soft control" zone, which plays into the off-controller aspect of the NPC class

granite saddle
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a mine but it's just someone dropping a knife

vagrant grotto
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Also changed Lodestone to immediately drop when the Anchor's Stunned, overheated, or destroyed

granite saddle
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might even warrant more damage on cleaving retrieval if it ends up not being easy enough to use every round
That's playtest considerations though

vagrant grotto
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yup, I'm tempering it because it's technically AoE

granite saddle
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we'll see

clever wind
vagrant grotto
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trying to hammer out my Controller/Striker concept, and I think I may need to try a playtest of the base kit to see what happens

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TORRENT - Controller/Striker
Tactics: Knock enemies out of position.

BASE SYSTEMS

AMORPHOUS    Trait
The Torrent has RESISTANCE to all damage originating within Range 3.

ROILING FORM    Trait
The Torrent ignores difficult terrain and engagement. It can move through and end its turn in spaces occupied by smaller characters and objects.

Wavebreaker
Main Melee, Knockback 3, +2/+4/+6
[Burst 1 or Cone 3][4/6/8 Kinetic]
On Hit: The target cannot take reactions until the end of their next turn. If this attack inflicts KNOCKBACK upon a target, the Torrent may move an equal number of spaces directly towards the same target.

Storm Surge
System, Recharge 6+, Quick Action
The Torrent moves 8 spaces in a straight line, ignoring engagement and obstructing characters. Hostile characters that the Torrent passes through or that are adjacent to its path must make a HULL save or be pushed to a space adjacent to the Torrent at the end of its movement.
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I feel like I want it to knock Prone somewhere in the base kit? There's also the issue of "I want this to be good at driving enemies off a point, but not so good at holding the point." I don't want it to be a better Cataphract or a Caliban and pursue enemies to the end of the earth, but I want it to "flow like water/crash like a wave" and feel like its moving around instead of standing still, if that makes sense?

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The "Assault Armor" in Amorphous, I'm considering changing to something else. It's anti-synergistic with Wavebreaker's knockback

granite saddle
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Like "If it would be [involuntarily moved without telporting] less than 3 spaces by a hostile character, it instead moves 3 spaces" or something like that

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Or just +2 to all hostile non-teleport involuntary movement iunno

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You get what I mean, something to make even base ram effective at getting it to Screw Off The Point

granite saddle
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Or an easy terrain-agnostic way for it to gain soft cover

vagrant grotto
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That makes sense

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It’s like a more swarmy Balor

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Like, in that it’s got a central chassis but it’s moving around with a tide of grey wash

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Like a water elemental but with a central core

granite saddle
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Kinda like that one homebrew Horus Blackbeard alt ?

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In vibes I mean

vagrant grotto
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I don’t know it

granite saddle
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Keep forgetting the name, but it doesn't matter that much

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It's very chill for greywash, though, if that's what it does

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Nice to see greywash finally went to therapy

muted blaze
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Make it size 1/2 so everyone can move it?

vagrant grotto
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That’s the thing, I don’t think I want folks to move it more than normal, I want it to kinda be its own little force of nature?

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I don’t know

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I’m simultaneously thinking of Water Elementals and Winston’s ultimate ability in Overwatch

granite saddle
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Well then you have to re-think how you make something good at getting the point but not at staying in it

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I (ironically) don't know much about water elementals, but if an ulted winston was standing on a point I needed to get to I'd reconsider, honestly

vagrant grotto
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I do also wanna clarify that “holding” the point is different than just “staying” on the point, too

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I think I should consider looking at Pf2e’s Monk design…

granite saddle
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Oh !

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Instead of following targets it knocks back, what if it could just move that many spaces, but also had to

vagrant grotto
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That’s honestly that I was leaning towards

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Must knock back and must move that many spaces

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Glad that we’re on the same page haha

granite saddle
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What do you mean bu that "must knock back" bit ?

vagrant grotto
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Knockback is an optional tag

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So instead I’d make it so Knockback is never optional

granite saddle
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Oh right

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Yeh

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At this point, make it just a "on hit : push target [distance]" and "after attacking with this weapon, the [thing] is pushed [distance] in a direction of its choice"

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Or something

vagrant grotto
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Inflicting forced movement on itself is actually a weirdly elegant way to avoid having to write “this ignores engagement and reactions” all the time

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As well as letting it easily get out of grapples

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Honestly, genius, thanks for suggesting that!!

granite saddle
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I was gonna say the movement it had in that first message needed that bit anyways

vagrant grotto
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With that in mind, here's a bit of a revision:

AMORPHOUS    Trait
The Torrent always has soft cover, and it ignores difficult terrain and engagement. Other characters can move through and end their turns in the Torrent's spaces, and long as it occupies at least 1 free space, it can end its turn overlapping obstructions, cover, or other characters.

ROILING FORM    Trait
Involuntary movement caused by the Torrent ignores difficult terrain. Hostile characters moved by the Torrent must pass a Hull save or be IMPAIRED until the end of their next turn.

Wavebreaker
Main Melee, Knockback 3, +2/+4/+6
[Burst 1 or Cone 3][4/6/8 Kinetic]
This weapon always inflicts KNOCKBACK. The Torrent pushes itself 3 spaces towards one target of the attack.

Storm Surge
System, Recharge 6+, Quick Action
The Torrent moves 10 spaces, ignoring engagement and obstructing characters. Hostile characters that the Torrent passes through at least once must make HULL save or be pushed to a space adjacent to the Torrent at the end of its movement.
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Storm Surge still feels like it needs work, and the IMPAIRED part of Roiling Form may be better as an Optional trait

placid glacier
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Question: What retrograde mini could you use to represent a hatchet?

vagrant grotto
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basically anything with something approximating an Axe and a somewhat-lithe profile

vagrant grotto
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Thinking about my Artillery/Defender NPC:

Reflection
System, Quick Tech
The Mirror places a reflection within SENSORS. The Mirror is treated as occupying the same space as the reflection for all purposes, including RANGE, THREAT, SENSORS, adjacency, engagement, targeting, and line of sight. The Mirror has RESISTANCE to all damage, Heat, and Burn inflicted through its reflection.

Reflecting Shot
Heavy Rifle, +2/+4/+6
[Line 15][5/7/9 Energy]
If this line would pass through a reflection, it instead stops. The remaining length of the line then continues in any direction from the reflection.

Crush Targeting
System, Recharge 4+, Quick Tech
A character within SENSORS and line of sight gains +3 DIFFICULTY to attack any character other than the Mirror until the start of the Mirror’s next turn.
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plus this optional:

NARCISSUS Override
System, Recharge 4+, Full Tech, +2/+4/+6
The Mirror makes a tech attack against a target within SENSORS. On a success, the target can only draw line of sight to the Mirror until they end their turn adjacent to it.
granite saddle
vagrant grotto
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like, every attack it makes is commital

granite saddle
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Maybe give it an extra little bonus for reflecting ?

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Nothing much, but still some incentive

vagrant grotto
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yeah, I was imagining that it could cover unique ground/shapes by bouncing off its reflection

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probably minor gain, though

granite saddle
placid glacier
granite saddle
vagrant grotto
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yeah, thinking like +2 damage or something on the back half

vagrant grotto
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The wacky Artillery/Defender has arrived lol

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One change made so far: Adding Ordnance to the base gun, mostly for GM overhead purposes

warm cedar
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@vagrant grotto
Spoiler for my french players.
||Hi, the Mesmerist template from 0.0.8 seems to be outdated on the lcp, it still displays the old Rapier that jam on crit and has only 1d3 Mirror Images.||

SPOILER_image.png
vagrant grotto
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Preexisting npcs may not reflect the changes

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Especially double check the ||rapier, || I think Foundry did an item merge instead of an overwrite and that may cause it to have both On Hit and Effect boxes instead of just one

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So you may need to manually edit or delete and re import that one

warm cedar
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I'll try that.

vagrant grotto
warm cedar
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Yes.

vagrant grotto
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I have the basic stuff setup for the Occultist and the Mirror now, but I feel like I should rename half the systems on the Mirror lol

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Hell, even calling it “Mirror” feels a lil weak

granite saddle
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I occasionally come up with good names.
Where do I find the most up-to date version of both ?

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Are both the latest that appear here ?

vagrant grotto
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The current-ish Mirror is the one I linked above

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But no need tbh, I’ll figure something out

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Honestly I was just bashing my head against mechanics to start yesterday

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Felt like I was forcing the lore/names to be something mildly unique

vagrant grotto
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Okay, hear me out: I rename the Mirror to be the "Prism" instead

zenith fossil
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Reflector or Rebound are others I thought of, but I like Prism better tbh.

vagrant grotto
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Just to cover my bases: The only other instance of someone working on a "Prism" NPC is Ikiryo working on something from around 2022; hopefully they can coexist lol

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just gonna rename all the Reflection stuff to "Lens" instead (yay shorter words!)

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lol NARCISSUS Override makes less sense now, but I like the name and effect too much to drop it

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though....................... that could be an interesting transplant onto the Mesmerist instead 🤔

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I have yet to see anyone use Ozymandias Protocol

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part of the reason I didn't like "Mirror" was also because I had the Mesmerist with Mirror Image in the same collection, lol

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hmmmm okay I'm not calling it a "Lens", I'm gonna call it a "Projection"

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similar word length to "reflection" at least

muted blaze
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Also be a pain if you had a mirror and a mirage in the same combat for name alone

vagrant grotto
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yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah

granite saddle
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Right, it's the Phantasm from EC

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That's the one it made me think about

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All in all, very different concept, but still. That's the one.

vagrant grotto
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Yeah, I honestly looked at some major homebrew to make sure nobody else had the same idea of making an Artillery/Defender like the Prism. EC had some of that clone bouncing stuff but not in the same way or intent as I have for the Prism, so I felt okay moving forward with it

tepid arch
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Honestly? Even if people have the same type of idea, there's nothing wrong with putting your spin on it. Nor is there anything wrong with using a name someone else has - frankly, there's only so many pithy NPC names out there, especially for particular concepts. (Prism for bouncing lasers especially is one of those 'feels especially right' names anyways. Heck, I was working on one myself before I ended up pivoting to something different!)

vagrant grotto
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Yeah, mostly I was looking to make sure someone else hadn’t had the same idea and done it better, since then I wouldn’t have to do it hahaha

These npcs I’m making are mostly attempts for me to make neat toys that I haven’t really seen before and leverage the roles in ways satisfying to me, after all

granite saddle
#

All I ask is that you name the obligatory "swap places with the /move the/start a move from the Projection" optional something cheeky about how only elctrons are allowed to be in two places at once because they're physics' special little particle

#

Pweasee

#

Also since it's now the prism, I'd say it needs an otional that allows it to start multiple lines from the Projection when it's hit by the line, but for that to be in any way useful you'd need a range upgrade on the thing (or at least an extention on hitting the Projection)

vagrant grotto
#

Yeah I’d need to playtest it as-is first

#

I’m already leery of the line redirection as it currently stands

#

Overhead cannot be too high, it’s an NPC that can be fielded in multiples after all

granite saddle
#

Well, can Prism A's weapon bounce off Prism B's Projection ?

vagrant grotto
#

Not originally intended but could be fun

granite saddle
#

Ehh

#

Also means you can't do those fun optionnals though

vagrant grotto
#

I don’t think it’ll be particularly effective to do so

granite saddle
#

I think the only official NPC's with cross-compatible effects are Lurkers, but I don't think the comparison is applicable in this case

vagrant grotto
#

Yeah I think I’m gonna move NARCISSUS Override to Mesmerist and ditch Ozymandias Protocol

# 
NARCISSUS Override
System, Recharge 5+, Full Tech
A character within SENSORS can only draw line of sight to the Mesmerist and must make a SYSTEMS save. On a failure, this effect lasts until the target ends their turn adjacent to the Mesmerist. On a success, it lasts until the end of their next turn.
#

Okay revised NARCISSUS for the Mesmerist

vagrant grotto
#

Thinking I’ll set up another piece of LoS fuckery for the Prism, plus maybe even an optional that turns off Seeking?

granite saddle
#

"for [duration], characters may not draw line of sight or range to the Prism, except through its Projection. The Prism must have a Projection deployed to activate this [trait/system]"

vagrant grotto
#

I was thinking a kind of Hardlight barrier that blocks LoS except to the Prism

granite saddle
#

If you feel this is too strong, you can just make it also apply to the Prism itself

vagrant grotto
#

like a Shroud Charge

granite saddle
#

Of course
I just also had that idea when reading that

#

Oh !

#

My idea for splitting the line into multiple (because that's what prisms do, y'know ?) !

#

Just figured out one way to make it work

#

Optionnal weapon, range 10/15 (not line), "when you target your projection with this weapon, you may instead attack 3[?] targets in [range] of the projection, drawing range and LoS from the projection."

#

Maybe it doesn't do the same damage after/before being refracted, maybe it has the same/a different range upon refracting, but yeah

#

I think the easiest way to make a weapon multi-split is to make a new weapon specifically for it (also weapon optionnals are always good, so that gives it one)

#

As always, do what you want

vagrant grotto
#

On-hit rider of “can only draw line of sight to the Prism” would make sense

#

I actually like that a lot as a defender tool

#

I might outright replace the line weapon with that

vagrant grotto
# 
Diffraction Beam
Heavy Rifle, +2/+4/+6
[Range 10 or Burst 2][5/7/9 Energy]
On Hit: Until the end of the target’s next turn, they may only draw line of sight to the Prism.

Attacks made through a projection gain AP.
#

this is likely gonna be the new base weapon for the Prism

signal robin
#

crrrrush targeting... TWO!

#

seems sick

#

maybe a save to avoid? maybe not

vagrant grotto
#

I figured if Crush Targeting Just Worked™️, it wouldn’t hurt to have this work on a hit

#

I may drop Crush Targeting now if I keep this, though

#

Stuff I’ve been considering too:

  • Quick Tech that basically drops a Sniper Shroud Charge but still allows folks to draw LOS to the Prism
  • Preventing Seeking from working; currently has a home on a modified Refraction Barrier but also considered it as an outright trait
signal robin
#

LoS is

#

yeah that makes sense, nice

granite saddle
#

I think something similar to stuncrown or the demolisher's concussion missiles could be good for it too, as a TASTE THE RAINBOW ability

#

But also just in general

#

Maybe make it inflict blind and make characters unable to ignore LoS restrictions ? (like arcing and seeking then ?)

vagrant grotto
granite saddle
#

Well, that's the thing about being in two places at once

#

But yea, I'm mostly screwing around just because prisms are fun things and it's named after them

warm cedar
#

@vagrant grotto Does the Jam proc on Codespike Rapier cancel the current attack against it after using Metafold Riposte ?

vagrant grotto
granite saddle
#

Wait sentinels have that ?

#

Holy shit

vagrant grotto
#

Yeah Bodyguard + Punisher rounds iirc Impaler

granite saddle
#

Need to read up on my core defenders damn

vagrant grotto
#

yeah Sentinel has some juiced optionals

muted blaze
#

W u h

vagrant grotto
muted blaze
#

Just the sentinel synergy

vagrant grotto
#

yeah, I found some strong synergies when writing Advanced Paradigms

sullen grotto
#

Today the Capacitor landed the shot of a lifetime, dealt 16 damage to three players, and shielded all its allies.

zenith fossil
#

Literally got all its ducks in a row, nice

vagrant grotto
#

Holy shit

vagrant grotto
sullen grotto
#

Yesm! Was one hell of a blow lol

vagrant grotto
#

Dang, what tier??

sullen grotto
#

Thats just a tier 1. A round earlier it got its entire crew of 4 allies in one line for shielding, so it was pumped up on overshield

vagrant grotto
#

Okay, it might have had more OS than intended haha (and the bonus damage may not have been halved?) but hey, nice shot regardless

sullen grotto
#

As for the damage: in version 0.0.8 (or at least my foundry's update so possible breakpoint there) there wasnt included damage halving

image.png
sullen grotto
#

I don't think I actually put what I was saying well, sorry.
I made the mistake in that Reciprocity doesn't take all the shields generated in one action (the line attack targeting 4 allies>one action generating 4 instances of 3 shield>12 shield), but did catch that it wouldn't stack infinitely (different actions wouldn't keep adding to the total).
Now understanding shield mechanics, it makes sense and all seems fine. It doesn't help my game has an emp in it, so something in the combat is already stacking multiple shields.

vagrant grotto
#

Which is: If there’s multiple targets, Bonus Damage is halved (regardless of whether it hits those targets or not)

sullen grotto
#

Today I learned!

vagrant grotto
# sullen grotto Today I learned!

Fun fact: Bombard skirts around this by Cluster Munitions explicitly not being Bonus Damage (which was intended, and mentioned in the Lancer FAQ)

#

I’ll admit that I’d be seeing stars though if it all worked the way you ran it and I got a nutty 16 damage shot on ¾ players

#

Like that’s hype as hell

sullen grotto
#

Oh yeah! it was like "Well the rules do say I gotta shoot you in the back of the head with this shotgun." like it was an edge case reward for shielding 4 npcs the turn before.

sullen grotto
granite saddle
#

From experience : no the fuck it ain't

#

It may seem like it, but then you remember 18hp is more than most NPCs have and you get half your OpFor blown up turn (not even round !) 1

#

If you're ever wondering why the MBT can only run over people when boosting, it's because of me. (and my player with a siege cannon)

(Also, more on topic : great segue into a point I made about different GMs seeing different things when presented with the same NPCs. This was the event I was thinking of.)

vagrant grotto
#

I’ll say that the last #homebrew-design feedback I got on the Prism was a bit disheartening, looking at all the damn edge cases

#

The FAQ is only gonna go so far

vagrant grotto
#

Crossposting this here, finally got a spark of inspo for this scavenger-type Support

granite saddle
#

If this is planning for any other homebrew to be used alongside it, restoring limited charges is straight-up insane

#

Especially at range 5

#

Maybe also for official NPCs, but I'd have to check first

#

But for NPCs, you mostly see "limited 1"s, and in that context it's supposed to be "you can use this Once Ever and That's It", so allowing a recharge could have unforseen consequences.

#

Maybe if the "restore limited" was adjacent only, I'd be okay with it

clever wind
#

The specific case I'd be most terrified of from 1st party content is Spec Ops

#

"yes I would like the spec ops ronin to go invisible again and get a guaranteed critical hit" - statements made by the Utterly Deranged

granite saddle
#

Yeah okay

#

I definitely overreacted

clever wind
#

I don't think you did!

granite saddle
#

"oh you like wasting So Many Actions ? Why don't you do it... Again !"

clever wind
#

but yes NPC limiteds probably shouldn't have ways to recharge

granite saddle
#

Most base NPC limiteds are actually Fine, Really. Even the limited 1s.

#

Like it does take having wrecks on the board and the vulture next to one at the start of its turn

#

It only gets dangerous when you look at Templates and homebrew, from what I can tell

#

Otherwise the "steal weapon" optional looks really fun, but I'd make it only be able to add a weapon to itself. Revenge on a Pyro's flamethrower ? No thank you. The rainmaker's missile pods on a bombard ? Somehow even worse.

muted blaze
#

Got some write ups for the same variant rules I did previously so overheat shenanigans: What I have to say is surprisingly... Nothing notable...

vagrant grotto
#

Huh. Funky

muted blaze
#

Fight 1: Not many recharge abilities
Fight 2: Same... Recharge abilities were on an elite barricade which sucked up a I deleted the characters shucks so can't easily make an after action report a decent amount of heat on barricades which is neat

Most notable is fight 3: ULTRA TEMPERED SHIP RAINMAKER

#

All other chaff didn't exist long enough to be relevant for the sake of overheating, enemies never stressed the whole fight yet players did

#

It was interesting, it added a dynamic which meant there were "pseudo stun" rounds where the Argus armour rainmaker chose to stabilise rather than get heatblasted by the chomo's system crusher. This might have been a worse call to me than just blasting players and taking the stress... Tempered WAS balanced for it, I think the fight added quite a bit rather than its only source of heat coming from enemy invades

#

So it had wolfhound + hades missile as its heat sources... Making them heat management meant I didn't just throw them whenever available and had to consider what the status of the enemy chomo was and if I was out of range and if I could fix it easily that turn which I think was a good mind game, if it wasn't tempered the fight could have been trivial to just pop the argus armour very easily after it uses its abilites

#

HOWEVER, this meant that the "optimal turn" for the rainmaker was either: Lock on + skirmish OR Javelin + skirmish

#

Wolfhounds or hades missiles (on a size 4 ship that couldn't hide behind cover) were basically used when I felt like it rather than when they were optimal, and taking heat on abilities like that makes it much less optimal to do

#

B uuuut that's why tempered exists, to give me that breathing room

#

This is kind of more of a ramble than feedback but my mission is over. I like the rules a lot! and I will be having after session feedback with the players on their opinions on it as well as other mission things + potentially introducing more PPG variant rules

#

Now do I implement the BRigand at some point... When I have 2 NHP players...

#

I think my thoughts can be summed up on the recharge heat rules:

  • It's a really interesting balance change which adds heat management to the NPCs (which is required IMO, interesting and cool) and acts as a nerf to implement more mind games to their abilities... HOWEVER apart from implenting tempered... IT does nothing to... make up for that "nerf" they receive
vagrant grotto
#

Yup sounds like it’s working as intended

muted blaze
#

fair

muted blaze
#

Finished the mission, asked players post mission feedback and got player feedback on homebrew Rules for recharge heat

#

Not much but this is what I wrote down:

Recharge heat:
Real cool, makes heat a viable way of dealing with things without being a heatgunner. Means that not all enemies need to be dealt with as “cool need to heat with everything” (all players heatgunning)
Felt good for Hacker, wouldn’t feel bad for enemies having tempered template. Allows playing via pushing characters over heat cap in final burst rather than purposefully doing it from completion.

#

1 Stress for all was suggested to players, I wanted their thoughts. They were very against implementing it as a rule. Their first perspective was "Incentivizes heatgunning and doesn’t simultaneously"

#

So unfortunately I'm not implementing that despite wanting to

#

That is all, might pick up your new escort rules

vagrant grotto
#

But glad they liked Recharge Heat a lot

#

Lift/drag rules for Escort are nice and easy tbh

#

Forces some action commitment if you say it’s a Quick to start a drag, but it means enemies also need to commit actions to contest

muted blaze
vagrant grotto
#

All good

#

Don’t gotta use all the rules after all haha

muted blaze
#

Like, I wanted to implement because Hacking/stress is very controller based until they reach 0 then it's an effective striker tool but also isn't because they can easily go "lmao" and deal a strikers worth of damage for being close and running into you

vagrant grotto
#

Yeah I’m just mostly disinterested in Multi bar stress as a mechanic these days

#

Maria’s take on it was a breath of fresh air but still wasn’t quite what I wanted

muted blaze
#

And for the escort stuff, I never saw it as a problem across 2 playgroups. This playgroup went into an extraction and DESPISED it

vagrant grotto
#

Oh uh

muted blaze
#

which was new

vagrant grotto
#

Huh

muted blaze
#

This was RAW/Ralfs escort rules

#

Not urs

vagrant grotto
#

Ohhhh okok

muted blaze
#

Sorry 😅

#

Which is why I'm looking at yours like "This might fix their problems"

vagrant grotto
#

Extraction is a PITA tbf, but a lot of it boils down to map design too

#

Depends on their problems? What were their pain points

muted blaze
#

True, going full length ways of a map I made at LL1 (with 1 player in a drake as exotic gear) was a tad painful

#

It was a size half target and didn't interact with their expanded compartment full stop was 1 but that's also kinda on me. The only standard movement was "slow and counter-intuitive" at first

vagrant grotto
#

Yeah makes sense, inflicting slow outright on Dragging was useful for me

#

Plus a clean action hook/cost to start the drag is nice imo, but that’s just me

muted blaze
#

It took a lot to wrap their head around but they also went all in on movement speed first with very little damage dealt so the enemies could do a lot uncontested which meant they finished "quickly" but not efficiently so part of it is to player action

#

"Talked to death, Movement mechanics are weird. Feel incomplete. Expanded compartment shenanigans… Want a qualifying rule around it rather than ignoring that it exists. " is what I have written down about the RAW rules

#

So I sent them all your blog and they're saying they'll read it and give it a look/thoughts

#

THey asked for the homework, not me givingg it to them lol

vagrant grotto
#

lol gotcha

muted blaze
#

Next mission I will probs be throwing out a lot of the tempered template to see how that fares. I'll give more if there's more but TBH I covered most of the issues in my first combat and have quite good data :P

vagrant grotto
#

My rules don’t exactly handle Expanded Compartment well; thoughts I just had:

  • Limit ExComp to copilots
  • Allow it to carry size 1/2 items but it forces the carrier to act as if dragging the object.
#

I appreciate it!

muted blaze
#

np

#

Like, TBH they would have preferred that.... It's the fact it does nothing that sucks...

#

Annd in act 2 of IGF I mentioned to them as a jest "BTW there's another escort with a size 1/2 objective where it specifically has rules for expanded compartment lmao"

vagrant grotto
muted blaze
vagrant grotto
#

I’d love to hear those accommodations tbh

muted blaze
vagrant grotto
#

Yeh

muted blaze
#

It's, there's 2 human sized objectives. Quick action for an expanded compartment and they're in... No limitations

vagrant grotto
#

And also the typical thing I see when expanded compartment hits the field is “combat changes from Escort to Gauntlet”

muted blaze
#

This was specifically an extraction which makes it wack

vagrant grotto
#

Oofies

muted blaze
#

Sorry merged "escort objective" into 1 thing

vagrant grotto
#

Escort needs a “team must extract” caveat lol

muted blaze
#

At LL1, Expanded compartment feels MUCH more likely to be carried. At LL, tier 2 when it happens I feel your system points are gonna be contested af, so if you have a spare 1sp it's probs for customisations or Redundant weapons

muted blaze
#

A player was grapppled,. there was a speed 3 drake... And they just won once the objective was off the board and they said it was a weird narrative hickup

vagrant grotto
#

Yeah exactly

#

There’s a fair amount of handwaving required for combats designed sitrep-first and fuck if my arms don’t get tired after a while

muted blaze
#

It depends how it's going? Extraction is a double budget sitrep right?

vagrant grotto
#

Yeah like Escort

muted blaze
#

Like, eeeh...

#

IG it can get very bad if you take too long but then... Don't... Just go faster lol

vagrant grotto
#

Yeah exactly

#

But I’ll also stand by that Escort maps should be smaller too

muted blaze
#

I feel maybe, if it was "extract and get out" you should also reduce the budget to compensate

vagrant grotto
#

I don’t know

muted blaze
#

Me making all my maps like 35x21

vagrant grotto
#

24x18 is the same aspect ratio 😉

muted blaze
#

Requires me to change my inkarnate maps size

vagrant grotto
#

I ran a 15x15 escort and that was fun

muted blaze
#

I keep duplicating the same one

muted blaze
vagrant grotto
#

Yeah with my rules

muted blaze
#

Faaaair

#

I DO like small maps but I also don't want to invalidate long range peeps

vagrant grotto
#

Lanny grabbed the thing and ran with it

muted blaze
#

Looks like I'm getting a Monarch and a Barb in my party :P

vagrant grotto
#

Long range peeps are validated by being able to shoot anything on the map

muted blaze
#

tru

vagrant grotto
#

Do we make all maps large enough to give max return on the Spell Sniper Eldritch Blast Warlock?

#

No, and I posit it ludicrous

muted blaze
#

Yes 😎

#

I have a monarch, therefore every map should have at least a strip of 50 tiles so therefore that one guy doesn't get hit by divine punishment

vagrant grotto
#

But yeah I view range on weapons beyond a certain point to be niche

muted blaze
#

fair

#

I feel like at least 20-15 there should be a difference

#

20+ can be somewhat like... 20 is good enough

vagrant grotto
muted blaze
#

Hex or square?

vagrant grotto
#

Hex

muted blaze
#

😎

vagrant grotto
#

Square too, if you’re not afraid to do 1-2-1

#

And definitely gridless

muted blaze
#

I do worry, espoecially with 5 players of going "cool, this enemy spawns in melee range of your spawn with the small map... There is not enough all of you can do with 5 players before they gank an artillery without them taking a turn"

vagrant grotto
#

In which case it sounds like the arty should spawn further away? I don’t know

muted blaze
#

BUUUT, other side of the coin. "It's first round, what do you do" "IDK there's no where in rannge so I just boost and dance as a quick action"

#

Hard balance

#

Good thing about 35x21 map is I can do both long and close range by shifting spawns from top of map vs bottom, Left vs right, middle vs somewhere else, etc

#

So I get consistency so my players know what the max and minimum are + variety of both long and close maps

vagrant grotto
#

Yeah true, but I highly enjoy the clustering I get in going smaller

muted blaze
#

true true

vagrant grotto
#

I get a lot more adjacency and melee clumps on small maps

#

Playing on Interpoint on size 35x21, I never really saw that happen

muted blaze
#

I do sometimes... IDK If it's just my playstyle?

vagrant grotto
#

I like to see it all the time tbh

#

It means the melees and cqbs are eating well and the long rangers have a front line to snipe behind

muted blaze
#

yeah...

#

My arty did get stolen first combat of the mission by a cataphract lmao

vagrant grotto
#

I’m also pathfinder 2e brained though so take my takes with salt

muted blaze
#

But I did do a rules fuck up on that and knocked them prone mid charge but ended the charge full movement anyway

#

I did make this map, limiting it to roughly 20x20? I'm curious how it will go

M5__LIFT_THE_VEIL_pdz.jpg
#

EDZ is by the Big fire portal

#

It's not as extreme as 15x15 but it's an attempt with a smaller map that's forced

#

vs an ultra pyro

vagrant grotto
#

Ah, ||the return of Andros Capella||

muted blaze
#

yep

vagrant grotto
#

Long may his flamethrower be smashed

muted blaze
#

||I've played him twice and I think my games cursed... Has never happened||

#

Alas this is discussions for PPG, this is getting a tad off topic

clever wind
#

The downside of an expanded compartment carrying an objective is that its impossible to hand off to an ally. The question is then, okay, what about friendly forced movement? Can they Ferrous Lash + Accelerate the guy with the objective across the map? Maybe the rules for forced movement of the objective apply even when it's in the compartment ?

vagrant grotto
vagrant grotto
#

Or like, maybe size ½ objectives shouldn’t exist period

#

If it’s something you can just carry then why make it an objective whose primary struggle is dragging it around

#

Size ½ objective: can be carried without a problem, but someone can try to steal it off you

#

Unless you have ExpComp, in which case it’s safe from “disarm” attempts

muted blaze
#

Just had a quick thought on recharge heat (again). Opinion on recharge heat on enemies with no heat cap...

vagrant grotto
#

Mmm monstrosities

#

I’d probably do away with recharge heat in that case

muted blaze
#

Wise

vagrant grotto
#

That or commit to the bit

muted blaze
#

It could work if they had a bit more HP like with tempered

vagrant grotto
#

Yeah

vagrant grotto
#

The optionals are far from set in stone on this iteration, just went on vibes

foggy wadi
#

uhhhhh, that's a great one, would fit perfectly in my current campaign

foggy wadi
#

I think you should add that Oppertunistic Salvage can't trigger on its own Deployables, otherwise it could loop the Birdhouse Bunker indefinitly (which isn't a bad thing balancewise I guess, it just doesn't feel right)

vagrant grotto
#

But thank you for the feedback and I’ll keep an eye out for other loops

foggy wadi
#

Ah true, missed that

granite saddle
granite saddle
granite saddle
#

I still mostly agree with my previous points.

#

Granted : you need a shit ton of wrecks, so a bit more nuanced still

#

Really like the new optionnals though

#

Also think the flak gun could use 1 extra charge

vagrant grotto
# granite saddle Also think the flak gun could use 1 extra charge

I did make a few changes since I posted that last one; made Flak’s zone act like a Flash Grenade (one-way no LOS)

Also considered adding “recharge 1 thing” to the base Magpie Subroutines

Glad you like the new optionals at least; I’m still wary of the feast or famine nature but I’m not sure how to change it to preserve the ideal

#

Maybe add limited to Magpie by default and have it not eat a charge if you consume a wreck

#

And I appreciate you linking back to your prior feedback, I forgot to write down feedback last time this made the rounds 😓

#

I think the important thing I need to remember is that the Vulture is mostly going to pick over its allies’ corpses, since the Lancer expectation is for PCs to survive/win/etc

granite saddle
#

Yup

#

And since grunt wrecks are the same as any other wreck

#

Like, I know it's a major case of "immense power the GM should know better than to actually use", but still
(This class in general I mean)

#

The restoring limited charges can break some certain stuff really bad (though mostly homebrew I'll admit that)

vagrant grotto
#

Like, I’m not gonna balance against homebrew

#

(There’s also an argument to be made that many “limited 1” NPC features could instead be “1/scene”, my stuff and the CRB included)

granite saddle
#

Yup

#

The absolute WORST the CRB does in limited 1s are the pirate optionnals imo, so look at that

#

Especially since flavor-wise it fits so well, people might even pair them by coincidence

#

Then there's Spec Ops in dustgrave, but those aren't as bad, even just looking at it like that

#

The one other thing that could be an issue is the Aegis' HA blackwall. Not because it's spectacularly strong (it's nothing to sneeze at when a controller-heavy OpFor uses it well, but still), but because spamming range 5 line 10 (semi)perma walls of "Fuck You And Fuck Your Seeking" might get annoying even simply for "getting to the point" purposes

#

Nothing much else stood out to me back when I looked at all of them in my original comments iirc, so the rest is probably fine

granite saddle
#

Oh !
If you want to look at core offenders for stuff, for the weapon transfer optional :
I'd say look at the Bombard with any multi-target weapon, mainly the rainmaker's missile pods (can guarantee a 3-target bonus for (8/11/14)*3 damage) or the pyro's flamethrower (cluster munitions can deal more burn, and the damage it adds would also be doubled on pre-burned ennemies; pretty likely given there was a pyro on the field); and the Avenger with anything that targets more than one character per action for much the same reason, especially since the avenger already synergises pretty well with the vulture's whole deal[this is good] (already faced an avenger with the flamethrower thanks to a homebrew template in a One shot here, it was a menace)

#

Though I do love the idea of an Avenger gaining the anime protag power-up and then picking up his freind's weapon off thr ground

vagrant grotto
#

But yeah bombard getting rainmaker gun requires a few things:

  1. a bombard and a rainmaker must be present on the same scene
  2. they must be close enough for the Vulture to throw the gun of the destroyed one to the other one
muted blaze
#

Enemy comp:
Ultra vulture
Grunt avenger
Grunt bombard
Grunt pyro

A bunch of hives

#

This can surely go fine

#

kid named 18 burn + other 6 per character in area only hit

#

Could specters damage to alone targets or assassins double damage knives be something to be weary of?

vagrant grotto
#

At limited 1? Maybe? I don’t know, worth a playtest or 5

#

I don’t know, IMO Trash to Treasure is just Cross Class Features with several extra hoops at the end of the day

#

If the Vulture can pull it off and an NPC can use it before they’re merc’d, that’s just a Support doing a successful force multiplication

granite saddle
#

I'd say no ordnance, burn damage and the possibility of doubled burn are better than knockback 3

#

(this is mainly a joke, but also a good point of reference)

#

-------------Jokes aside------------

#

ofc ofc, these weren't a "they are bad, will be bad and something should be done about them", they were just the first and most easily exploitable things I thought of, just in case, y'know ?

#

So just keeping an eye on it for when it gets feedback is the point, that's why I mentionned them in the first place

vagrant grotto
#

Hammered out the rest of the Torrent, my Controller/Striker knockback machine

foggy wadi
#

@vagrant grotto , Clarification: its weapons state that they always inflict Knockback, but it already has the Knockback X tag. Is it intended to work even when missing, or even if the target would be immune otherwise
Suggestion: rename "Wave Pounding" to "Concussive Wave" or something
Suggestion: First sentence in 'Undertow' is redundant, Forced Movement doesn't interact with Difficult Terrain in the first place, unless specifically states that it does (e.g. Puppet System)

granite saddle
granite saddle
vagrant grotto
#

And yes, knockback is usually optional. I can reword it to make it clear that it’s “mandatory” and not “cannot be prevented”

foggy wadi
#

Wack indeed, maybe I had an outdated version but the way the part on Difficult Terrain is worded made it feel like it's only relevant if it interacts with your own Speed (rather than a set amount of forced movement from an outside source)

halfspeed.PNG
vagrant grotto
#

This is latest version off itch

foggy wadi
#

okay, I recognize I was wrong but my brain is still protesting

vagrant grotto
#

Yeah, I account for it here and on the Knight’s Mighty Throw. Because I don’t like how it makes two bread and butter control tools (forced movement and difficult terrain) inherently anti-synergistic at a systemic level

granite saddle
#

Wasn't Mighty Throw the one I suggested you make flying instead of movement ?

vagrant grotto
#

Yeah I basically did that by saying it now ignores terrain and obstructions

granite saddle
#

Why not just make it straight-up flight ? /gen

#

(also I do have feedback on the Torrent, i'll get into it when I can)

vagrant grotto
#

Torrent will likely get a few optionals swapped to new ones

#

Two ideas from conversing with SeaShells last night:

  • Scald: Cone 5 Save vs burn
  • Drown: Single Target Full Action Jam, thinking of Specter’s Drain Systems or something more committal (like “must remain adjacent” or something)
granite saddle
#

Yeah I see it.
I'd have gone with "this is involuntary movement" or "involuntarily flies" personally, but I also am not, in fact, the one making the supplement, so who cares

vagrant grotto
#

There was just also some landing language I’d need to add that I had no interest in adding

#

So this was my attempt at “just fucking yeet them, don’t overthink it”

granite saddle
#

Entirely fair

#

I know it's supposed to be flight, so I'll just run it like that's what it was

#

And it'll change right about nothing

#

Punt the Witch (affectionate)

vagrant grotto
granite saddle
# granite saddle (also I do have feedback on the Torrent, i'll get into it when I can)

Ok so. Wave pounding for mass deterministic impaired seems really strong. Like I get you still have to hit or have someone fail a save, but y'know. Not sure, but I'd keep an eye on it.
I know the point of it is "use tech to deal with it", but even exposed it's got perma soft cover, high eva and more hp than a hive (and those already have way too much hp). So even playing to its weaknesses, it's a struggle. (Also it gets to raise its hp, eva and edef every tier, and that feels unfair to the poor goliath in the corner.) The fact I felt like comparing it to a goliath should mean something I feel

#

Maybe experiment with DZ/exposed/stress taking away the soft cover ? Duration or "as long as the status lasts", idk

granite saddle
vagrant grotto
# granite saddle Ok so. Wave pounding for mass deterministic impaired seems *really* strong. Like...

I dropped the evasion by 2 across all tiers, replaced wave pounding and inexorable tide

Remember that Goliath has Siege Armor too. Its evasion is much worse, true, but resistance gives it a huge bump to survivability. That’s the case for most defenders: they have a resistance or invisibility feature that they can lean on to inflate their HP. Even the Bastion has better effective HP than the Torrent (post evasion nerf) if you treat its Armor as worth 2x HP and it has its resistance

#

Like, also compare/contrast to the Ronin, who has similar HP, Evasion, and Speed, as well as an anti-ranged feature

#

But yeah I added Scalding Greywash and Drown in Nanites

granite saddle
#

I mean, perma soft cover is also a big help

#

But yeah, 2 less eva should already be better

vagrant grotto
#

I figured it could use the cover help given that it’s also Size 2 yeah

granite saddle
#

Entirely fair

frigid kraken
#

Happy to see more NPCs! I'll be looking over these goodslater today ^_^

vagrant grotto
#

Hell yeah! The new kids still need testing but the rest are feeling pretty good. Will maybe tweak a few of the Core 8 later but I think they’re solid

#

As always my biggest target metric is “can I run two of these at a time? What about three?” So fingers crossed on the new kids

scenic slate
#

ooooo

#

new npcs

#

my fingers are wiggling about the zealot

#

even if I don't end up borrowing these NPCs directly, I might lift some of the systems

vagrant grotto
#

That’s what they’re there for! Lift away

clever condor
#

@vagrant grotto noticed one of the prism's optionals don't appear

image.png
vagrant grotto
#

Woof I’ll take a look

#

Yeah oof forgot to add Scintillating Gleam, my bad

muted blaze
#

Wdym, I thought was meant to be an optional

#

/j

vagrant grotto
#

Gonna have to fix that after work today, and maybe reconsider how I increment versions so LCP patches don’t invalidate the PDF

vagrant grotto
#

Thinking about a replacement for Explosive Vent on the Napalm:

Heat Haze - Trait
The Napalm has Soft Cover while in the Danger Zone.
granite saddle
#

Wait what's Explosive vents already ?

vagrant grotto
#

Get invis for a turn when you overheat or become stunned

granite saddle
#

Mhm

vagrant grotto
#

It was filler at the time of writing napalm

granite saddle
#

Went and downloaded the pdf on my phone, should get some milage out of that

#

Should really pay you eventually

vagrant grotto
#

When you can, all good

granite saddle
#

Oh emergency vents

vagrant grotto
#

Oh whoops wrong name

#

Maybe I’ll do the same for Mesmerist’s Step, give it a Mirror Image and reduce the range

granite saddle
#

Dont' know exactly what you mean by that

granite saddle
#

Like it's a cool ability, but soft cover doesnt stack so

vagrant grotto
#

Heat Haze is selfish

granite saddle
#

Yeah

vagrant grotto
#

And by that metric Emergency Vent is meh because it’s invisible

granite saddle
#

It's also way less reliable, mainly

#

Hmm

#

Flicker field projector but for heat instead of movement.

#

Is that anything ?

vagrant grotto
#

I don’t wanna give it Invis tbh

granite saddle
#

Fair

vagrant grotto
#

I’m happy with soft cover deterring range

granite saddle
#

And cover helps make it technically weaker to melee

vagrant grotto
#

While not deterring tech or melee

granite saddle
#

Hmm. Soft cover dz is fine yeah.

#

'specially for a size 2

vagrant grotto
#

Exactly my thoughts

granite saddle
#

Really wish we could come up with something more... unique ?

#

But this works

vagrant grotto
#

It’s already got Salamander Thermobaric Catapult and Adhesive Gel

#

I think Napalm has done well in spite of its reused assets

granite saddle
#

Of course, and plenty of other NPCs have reused/unoriginal stuff, too

vagrant grotto
#

I like the simple elegance of “you get a defensive benefit based on your danger zone status”

granite saddle
vagrant grotto
#

Plus, as you might’ve noticed, space is at a premium

granite saddle
#

Mhm

granite saddle
#

I mean, nothing stops you from going over the 1 page per NPC limit, core does it, but as long as you stick to that yeah, it's rough

vagrant grotto
#

It gives me:

  1. concise and satisfying layout
  2. features that do not consume too much mind space
#

It is forcing me to word my shit carefully, clearly, and concisely

#

And IMO I’m making a more usable product as a result

granite saddle
#

Oh I love it don't get me wrong

#

It makes it real easy to navigate

vagrant grotto
#

Okay I think this is the cleanest approach

MOUNTEBANK’S JAUNT    Trait
When the Mesmerist uses MIRROR IMAGE, it may teleport to a free space within SENSORS.
granite saddle
#

Replacing what ?

#

Step ?

vagrant grotto
#

Step yes

granite saddle
#

I like it, but I also enjoy "Fuck It, teleport 50 spaces why don't ya. I don't care."

#

good thing I can also just. add Step back if I want to thinkaboutit

vagrant grotto
#

There’s an appeal to that for sure; however note that this isn’t restricted to line of Sight too

granite saddle
#

oh hey woah wait hold on

#

ohohoho

#

sealed box of "fuck seeking weapons" here I come !

vagrant grotto
#

@ashen crown

granite saddle
#

Pictured : me being wrong I guess

#

While I did see all your optional rules at the end of the pdf, nothing about your core NPC remakes, so if you ever put those in a format able to be observed by mortals, consider me interested

vagrant grotto
#

That and it’s technically separate from PPG, but talking NPC design shop feels appropriate here

#

I guess Brigand is technically my “pirate rebake” lol

vagrant grotto
#

Anyway also workshopping a better wording/less confusing mechanic for prismatic projection

#

Thinking “this shares HP” or “deploying this eats half the Prism’s remaining HP” or something

vagrant grotto
#

@granite saddle pinging you for wording feedback on the Prism; thinking of changing it to this:

The Prism creates a projection in a free space within SENSORS, a copy of itself with the same statistics and RESISTANCE to all damage, heat, and Burn. The Prism and its projection share the same HP, Heat, turn, pool of actions, and action usage restrictions (such as 1/round, RECHARGE, and LIMITED). The projection can cause engagement and contest objectives.

If the Prism would have more than 1 projection, it must destroy any beyond that limit. Projections last until the end of the scene, or until the Prism is STUNNED, JAMMED, overheated, or destroyed.

Thoughts? How is it to read/comprehend? better or worse than before?

vagrant grotto
#

@clever condor Thanks again for letting me know about Scintillating Gleam on the LCP; I just released a v1.1.0 that fixed the bug while also replacing a trait for the Mesmerist and Napalm (and added half damage to Cleaving Retrieval's save, shhhh shh )

clever condor
granite saddle
#

Also, because I know the current version and what you want it to be, I know how to read this so it makes sense, but I don't know if someone reading this version as their first exposure to the prism would get the right idea

#

If the aim is to change the wording but not the effect, I prefer the previous version.

#

If it does change the effect, I couldn't figure out what it does, so it's probably got a problem there.

vagrant grotto
#

The idea of this modified version is “okay the projection is their own character, and it’s like a mech and pilot splitting their actions”

#

But yeah, it’s hard to get this wording concise

frank pollen
#

What's the original wording?

vagrant grotto
#

Whatever is in the pdf right now haha

frank pollen
#

I was thinking it could be simpler to say "the mech is considered to occupy both spaces, though any movement it is granted only applies to one instance"

#

Or along those lines

vagrant grotto
#

Got it, that’s similar wording to what I have though the Projection is more of an untargetable Marker in the current case

frank pollen
#

Which, I realise, could double as a really big mech

#

With two legs

vagrant grotto
#

Basically yeah

#

Basically right now the projection just marks the spot where the prism occupies, but can’t be interacted with itself. The prism can be interacted with from that spot though

frank pollen
#

So if you KB a projection, a mech 3km away goes flying?
(Not a complaint, just asking how the mechanic works)

vagrant grotto
#

Correct

#

I address that in the FAQ

frank pollen
#

Might not have PDF in front of me atm, hence my queries

#

I would replace untargetable with indestructible, and say that any effect that would affect the projection affects the Prism instead, although damage, heat and burn are halved

muted blaze
#

Wait

#

Ok "untargetable" is massively throwing me off

#

In my eyes it's saying "you can't interact with this" and "you can interact with it" simultaneously which seems very counter intuitive

vagrant grotto
#

In v1.1.0 the projection is just a marker like Soul Vessel

#

Realizing why Kai had to make a FAQ sheet specifically for IBEJI in Suldan

#

I don’t know if I have the page real estate to get this wording right

granite saddle
#

I'd say two options : go the "mark a space. It's a projection and that means this :"/"mark a space as a projection. The Prism [...]" ; or take inspiration from like, Void husks or something.

#

Current version works fine, except for the "untargettable" bit I'd say

vagrant grotto
#

the thing is that Void Husks have a ton of verbiage to indicate they can't be targeted or destroyed, and that's just gonna be confusing when I say "okay but the Prism can be". I actually started off referencing Void Husk and then ran into that verbiage lol, then shifted to Lich's Soul Vessel instead

granite saddle
#

Yeah

#

Was on my phone, so couldn't check around to see what "like, void husks or something" actually meant

#

Also, just wondering, why spend so many characters on the description instead of just going "for all intents and purposes" ? Maybe even "for all intents and purposes, including [...]" for the more unexpected applications.

#

Actually hang on

#

A wording just popped in my head, I'll write that up for you to see what you think of it 1nd what you want to use from it

vagrant grotto
granite saddle
#

Why would it need to be treated as when it could just, y'know, be there ?

#

Take what you want, but I'd say that's already fairly shorter

vagrant grotto
#

I will say that part of the reason I was considering a “copy character” was so that forced movement could be applied to the projection, since that was a potential concern for objectives and counterplay

#

And there was a reason I used “treated as” but I can’t recall why

granite saddle
#

fair

#

so the question now becomes "do you actually want the projection to be able to be moved around or not ?"

#

argument for against : someone puppet systems the projection. what now ?

vagrant grotto
#

Indeed, that’s where I’m at right now. And if they do so they move the original prism

granite saddle
#

yep

vagrant grotto
#

They could EPJ it to make it disappear, once, and keep it from coming back for a round

granite saddle
#

makin sure

vagrant grotto
#

For now, I’m letting it ride

#

If feedback indicates that it’s untenable, I’ll readjust

granite saddle
#

I'd say it's fair for a defender to go "I'm standing on the point and you're gonna have to kill me about it". It's kind of the point of them to draw aggro

#

and of course, the very easy counterplay then becomes "alright bet"

#

especially since now they're on the point (you were already there or going to be) ripe for attacking and/or you still get to shoot the original guy

vagrant grotto
#

Yeah, same thing as a Goliath or a Demolisher I suppose

#

Though tbf SMN can deal with them

#

This is a lot more frail in comparison though

granite saddle
#

even better, if the prism contests via projection, you get to involuntarily move them where you want from where you are (to better kick the shit out of it)

granite saddle
granite saddle
vagrant grotto
granite saddle
#

Huh
Fun

#

Finally, rotating an enemy in the grapple

#

(not really)

granite saddle
#

Kinda fits with your faq answer comparing it to a discombobulated size 2

vagrant grotto
#

dunno, considered it, esp in "maybe I should make the projection a 'projector drone'" sense

#

but I think it'd run into the same issues? Willing to try writing it a bit though

granite saddle
#

Sharing a space with the mark

#

Same exact thing, more recognizable wording (ie : people already ask questions about it with mule harness and BT, so this kind of thing is known about)

#

Though that does give me an idea for an optional

#

Drone that "carries" (one of) your projections, except you get to move the drone/it gets to move itself
Upside : moving projection
Downside : the drone can be destroyed, and if it is your projection is too

#

You don't have any more space for it unfortunately, and all the other optionals look real good

vagrant grotto
#

Prism had some iffy optionals when I was writing them

granite saddle
#

Would like some clarifying on Shattered Glass though
It's a lot, so I'm not sure I get everything the way it's meant to be

vagrant grotto
#

Good thing I made it 1/scene then lol

#

But it’s very much “move Ally, take hit instead, blow up the projection”

granite saddle
#

What happens if the Prism uses it on itself then, it just gets resistance ?

vagrant grotto
#

Yeah basically

#

It swaps with the projection, gets resistance, punishes the attacker

granite saddle
#

Alright yeah ok

#

Quick sidenote, nothing to do with mechanics too so you're all good :
While it makes sense when it uses it on itself, in the narrative, I don't see how it's doing what it's doing when it uses the reaction on an ally. What do you picture happening ?

vagrant grotto
#

mirage-style

granite saddle
#

Oh wait yeah

#

And since the projection is the prism it takes damage because of it

#

Right, ok

muted blaze
#

When was recharge heat taken from recharge value-2 to -3?

vagrant grotto
muted blaze
#

Sick

vagrant grotto
#

Felt it was hitting a point where I couldn’t use my NPCs effectively

muted blaze
#

I felt similar... TBH I didn't notice too much until I saw it was updated and "Yeah that's so much better"

vagrant grotto
#

yeah, it wasn't terrible but there were times where I felt I couldn't actually do my NPC's gameplan for 2 consecutive turns. NPC should be able to do its thing for at least 2 turns in a row, if not 3, before stabilizing IMO. NPCs should target surviving for 2-3 turns, so they should be able to use their kits for at least 2-3 turns in a row IMO

#

without PC interference, obviously

#

but yeah whole point here is for controllers to have a leg up with interference, but not have the NPCs do their job for them

muted blaze
#

Yeah

#

Yeah

#

I had a support roast itself last session to exposed, then it got orchis rammed to death from full HP

#

Industrial as well so +1 armour

vagrant grotto
#

Mmm. Yeah. Dialing it back was the right choice

muted blaze
#

9 heat from restock*2 + remote cloud... Lessened to 6 which would allow be so much more fortunate

vagrant grotto
#

Oof yeah that all adds up

#

I think I incorrectly pegged Recharge 4 as the “bread and butter recharge” and thus gave it the “bread and butter heat cost” of 2

#

But like, I saw on Hornets, Witches, and Mesmerists that the heat cost for Recharge 5 and 6 was just mondo big. So we’ll see how the new setup goes

muted blaze
#

👍

#

I'll def be changing to it

vagrant grotto
#

It’s likely gonna be super pronounced on my end too since I’m now doing single stress enemies with “heatcap is overheated” (effectively lowering heatcaps by 1 across the board, ooh boy)

granite saddle
#

Yeah was meaning to ask that : Why make it so at heat cap is overheating ?

vagrant grotto
granite saddle
#

Yeah, but I remember the playtest we did where you mentionned having all your heatcaps effectively reduced by 1 was a problem

vagrant grotto
#

Eh it was probably in tandem with the higher recharge heat

#

Needs more data, I don’t have enough

upbeat obsidian
#

is reprocity on the capacitator supposed to stack? (like overshield on the emperor?)

#

like how emperor overshield stacks

#

also has there been any consideration that the anchors "lodestone" might have a weird little restriction of some sort for like
ranged (cbq) weapons while like right in the enemies face to let close range weapon users to also do a similar thing to melee mechs? its definitely possible its already been discussed

vagrant grotto
upbeat obsidian
#

yeah, thats what i figured but brain had to ask because its emperor the npc

vagrant grotto
#

the intent is that it doesn't stack on my end yeah

vagrant grotto
#

sounds like you're suggesting that ranged attacks from outside the Lodestone area are the only ones affected by Lodestone?

#

so that you can use ranged while within the radius

upbeat obsidian
#

Yeah maybe…
Because like, bristlecrown fletchettes and shotguns and stuff exist and it would be a bit sad if you were eight in the enemy face and couldn’t shoot because your shotgun didn’t count as a melee
Only thing that also does mean.. non cqb builds can just walk in too, kinda

#

Well not only thing

#

But to practically implement it means there’s a entire new thing of counter play from any Joe shmoe

#

Unless you like, had it worded to be based on weapon threat, (which might work, actually?)

vagrant grotto
#

maybe, but I haven't heard any playtest feedback about it yet

#

if someone playtests it and shares their findings, I'm all ears

upbeat obsidian
#

Completely fair

#

Consider asking one to take a shotgun or something is my only thought

vagrant grotto
#

Okay so: Did some playtesting of the Vulture tonight, along with Smolder Charges on the Napalm. Map attached:

image.png
#

Napalm could comfortably sit back on this Holdout and lob burn at the enemy. It was able to consistently get 3 targets in its line 5. However, the PCs all had decent engineering and were able to clear the burn with checks for the most part. For the cases where they couldn't, they used my homebrew Aid action (thanks Acatalepsy) to split the action cost of Stabilize between two characters

#

Realized that Smolder Charges have weird wording that imply that it confers invisible against melee attacks and Tech attacks. That's not intentional, and likely will be clarified to be ranged only like Firebreak

#

Hm. Also realizing that Smolder charges lingering could make it hard for the Napalm to hit additional targets in a criss cross.... It may get workshopped to a Trait instead

#

Looking at this map size though, I'm realizing also that Long-burn catalyst is actually really fucking wide. Like, to the point where I went "okay I can't use two of these things at once if Long Burn is covering this much ground". So that'll probably get shrunken to just the affected line again

#

Heat Haze was neat but didn't get use because it was hiding behind the rocks, lol. Chalk up a win for Big Terrain™️

#

As for the Vulture:

  • It feels heckin' chonky. 14 HP + 2 Armor may be overkill for a support.
  • Its abilities feel controller-adjacent. TBH I was getting that vibe too. I'm okay with that, it's just something I wanna be mindful of when designing
  • Magpie Subroutines were difficult to use due to the Protocol nature; not many allies were around in range 5 after they were destroyed, too. Very likely to change this to a Quick action instead, at least
  • Magnet Bombs were neat but kinda a lot to manage. Damage (including half on miss), Lock On, and No Cover, plus asking for saves is a PITA in foundry right now
  • Dandelion Flak Cannon did good work controlling space like a flash charge. Considering though that maybe the damage should be smaller for both the Dandelion and the Magnet Bomb; just seems like a lot of AOE damage potential that I'd prefer be support power (or control power, as it were)
#

fielding two Vultures at once currently sounds too daunting with its wide array of options; I may need to cut some of its base kit

#

Reducing self-heat on Recharge was fine. Most NPCs I used had either 1 Recharge 4+ ability (so the heat was a drop in the bucket) or simply outright had big Self Heat tools (Pyro, Napalm) so couldn't really say if it made much of a difference yet

#

Single Stress with Heat Damage Overflow worked well this time, though I realized that Pyro's Explosive Vent doesn't clear Exposed, lol, lmao. So it got dunked on after getting exposed and using Explosive Vent (and whiffing with it)

#

my streak of failing to inflict Structure damage continues, though, as I only structured the friendly NPC witch 😩 The Gilgamesh was an endurance monster

#

Even with an Elite Napalm raining flaming gel on 2-3 PCs at a time couldn't knock them down a peg, their Stabilize discipline was too good

#

this does make me glad though, as it means that Elite Napalm isn't like, a game ruiner on its own

#

realized I held back reinforcements for too long though, 3 of my initial 5 npcs all crumpled Round 3 and I was left flailing trying to recover

#

The Holdout itself was custom rules, 3xPC count points to win, earn points end of the round = # PCs in CZ - # NPCs in CZ

#

ended Round 5; bit long for my tastes but likely faster than normal Holdout

#

my NPCs struggled to get to and stay on the point more than 1 at a time, so maybe that's a pattern I should keep in mind for "typical holdout gameplay"

vagrant grotto
#

Oh, also of note: the Vulture in the initial deployment didn’t have a lot to do regarding Wrecks in the initial rounds, getting by with its limited gear… but by the time half its team was destroyed, it suddenly had too much to do, with no one to do it for but itself lol

vagrant grotto
#

Okay, after sleeping on it, I’m considering a few things:

  1. make Magnet Bomb an optional, or make it like a flashbang that blinds or something
  2. Put Lock On as an on-hit effect on the Dandelion
  3. Big one: Change Magpie Subroutines to a Quick action, but also let it be used by Destroying a Weapon or System on itself or an ally. Plus add the option of repairing a Weapon or System when used
vagrant grotto
# 
"Magpie" Subroutines
Trait, 2 Heat (Self), Quick Action
Destroy an adjacent wreckage or one weapon or system equipped by the Vulture or a willing allied character. The Vulture or a character in Range 5 gains one of the following effects: 
• RECHARGE one weapon or system.
• Repair one destroyed weapon or system.
• All LIMITED weapons and systems regain 1 use.
• Gain OVERSHIELD 4/6/8 and clear 1 condition.
#

Give the Vulture an extra avenue for using Magpie Subroutines, plus a way to undo the weapon/system destruction

vagrant grotto
#

Okay, I moved Magnet Bomb to the optionals and scrapped Pinion Mine; it was a little too "cute" and was altogether too wordy/complicated

#

Magnet bomb now gives Seeking to all weapon attacks against save-failers

#

Using the above rules for Magpie now to solidify its use in the main kit

granite saddle
#

That is a buff

#

Wasn't there, so it probably was needed, but as always more testing will need to be done

#

Also the part that allows you to destroy the weapon of an adjacent and willing allied character is a bit confused, I'd put that before the part that says you can break one of your own

#

I'd go with "Destroy one weapon or system equipped by a willing and adjacent allied character or the Vulture or an adjacent wreckage."

static kernel
#

Is the occultist's only option to move its drones the Diviner's Darts? Seems like it's a bit limited in terms of moving drones up to support allies

vagrant grotto
static kernel
#

ahh, that makes sense.

vagrant grotto
#

Aight so, did some thinking last night. Realized that effectively lowering HC by 1 across the board may hit PCs harder than expected, but I think the biggest culprit of that is actually the NPC invade action (which historically has been an issue, period).

Many cases of 1-turn overheats vs a no-Eng 4 HC mech will usually still happen even without the Stress change (nominally, T1 Hornet’s Impale Systems + Invade, and T1 Witch Tear down over 2 turns); notable gain is T1 Mirage Warp Sensors + Invade.

But this honestly made me think: Maybe removing the Slow from NPC Frag Sig vs PC Frag Sig isn’t enough? Maybe the Heat should be halved too, maybe even move the Impair to an “if they’re in the danger zone” clause?

#

IMO the only NPCs that should be heatgunning are the ones dedicated to it, anyway

#

So I may wind up testing an extra houserule soon too: NPC Invade deals 1 Heat and Impairs until end of next turn

I know other folks have considered simply limiting the action to Controllers/folks with positive Systems, but I think that NPC controllers are part of the problem

#

There is the consideration that overheating with the 1-stress system doesn’t eat repairs directly, and still requires further follow up on another turn (which could give a chance for the PC to Stabilize/mitigate the Exposed), which may make it naturally less punishing than the existing ruleset?

granite saddle
#

If you stop me from stressing a careless lycan with a berserker, know that I will be mad

#

/j, mostly

#

Interesting thought though

#

Main problem I see is : you can't make it scale, because HC doesn't naturally do that, but then it gets pretty useless as a punish tool vs. the ones most likely to use HC in such a way as to need that kind of punishing

vagrant grotto
#

Right, but I think the punishers should be folks intended to punish that

muted blaze
#

Heat on NPC frag sig = Tier?

#

IDK if that will fix anything, probs break higher tiers, keep low better and mid the same

#

Yeah enemy heatgunning can be lethal... I personally feel NPCs should have more heat options because heat feels like something that is relatively easy to abuse as a resource on the side of PCs that there should be more counterplay...

vagrant grotto
#

Yeah pc heat is frustrating because it has surprising variance

#

Low as 4 on frames not named Lich, as high as 18 on a Genghis with 6 Eng and SbD

#

Highest NPC HC is T3 Pyro at 16 iirc

muted blaze
#

I don't think the variance is the problem

#

I feel it's more along the lines that as a smaller value, it's harder to tweak

#

Like, if all heat cap was doubled, everything that gained heat was doubled, and you gain +2 hc from eng like you get HP from hull

#

Then it allows you to fine tune it much more

#

As an inherently lower number, it makes it more swingy and harder to balance

#

Maybe the problem is, it's both comparable to HP and not comparable simultaneously? So it is sometimes treated as a second health bar and a resource bar at the same time? IDK I could be spouting rubbish rn

#

Invade is an "Attacking the second health bar"

#

do NPCs just have inherently higher heat caps than unedited players as well?

vagrant grotto
muted blaze
#

Yet NPCs have the activations

vagrant grotto
#

That’s why I was willing to reduce NPC invade heat

muted blaze
#

Yeah

#

I'd be more willing to invade sometimes with that too

vagrant grotto
#

V1.2 will probably include my lift/drag house rules and now this variant of NPC invade

#

I do think it’s wild that even in Core, Hornet can Stress a 0Eng Balor in one turn with Impale Systems and Invade. Could even punish a Goblin with the Jammed so it can’t Reactive Code

muted blaze
#

You can say the same thing about damage, an assault can structure a 0 Hull Swallowtail, Atlas, Goblin, etc

#

Actually no they can't... because of grit to HP

#

They can with a barrage with the knife...

#

At what point is something a problem inherent to game design and what point is it a problem due to player build

vagrant grotto
#

Tbf I see PCs 1-turn NPCs with HP much more often than I see PCs 1-turn NPCs with heat

muted blaze
#

NPCs can't boost their HASE as their stats are arbitrary values, a hornet with 5 HC could be like... Started at 4 HC and put 1 into eng for example

#

If put onto a player scale

#

So it makes sense that NPCs stats are higher because they already have "optimised" their HASE stats. Like, yeah you could have a hornet with 20 evasion and 3HC at LL0 I guess

#

That also gave me a random thought, veterancy boosting stats as well as just accuracy to a skill

vagrant grotto
#

Of course, but NPCs aren’t built with HASE increases in mind either. It would be a different story if NPCs actually had a point value balance system

muted blaze
#

I think that's my point just with better wording

vagrant grotto
#

Easier to code, easier to remember

muted blaze
#

Just +2 to a skill?

vagrant grotto
#

Yes

muted blaze
#
  • tier
#

I disagree tbh

vagrant grotto
#

That’s easy to automate in the current system

#

Like if the automation existed then maybe

muted blaze
#

I think with stuff like that you need to assume all options, you're assuming a VTT is in use. I guess one hand you can just scribble over a physical char sheet with the new stat. But as the trait in foundry isn't attached to a skill, I change the name of the skill to have brackets and the skill it changes

#

Then if rolling a skill check I just double check it and go "cool it can do that" and just throw an additional d6 into my hand

vagrant grotto
#

In any case I’m longing for the theoretical Lancer 2e where player HASE is gone, reduced, or baked into the frame itself

muted blaze
#

I like HASE TBH, I say this as someone deeply allegergic to AGI and SYS

vagrant grotto
muted blaze
#

I do 😎

#

Power at a cost:

  • You remember veterancy
    Cost:
  • You forget everything commanders have
vagrant grotto
#

Power at a cost:
you get:

  • forget every NPCs’ passive abilities
    In exchange for:
  • also forgetting every NPCs’ reactions
muted blaze
#

DONE

#

Wait shit

vagrant grotto
muted blaze
#

I'm getting better

vagrant grotto
#

Cannot remember passives for the life of me, nor niche reactions

muted blaze
#

I know rough vibe reactions

vagrant grotto
#

This Is Why I need it baked in

#

I freely admit it is selfish 😛

muted blaze
#

Like, if an archer exists I'll know it has reactions... I know assaults can hunker down because it's base kit

#

However throw the optional reaction on a hornet, unless I did revision before the combat I will forget

vagrant grotto
#

I forgot my archer’s reaction The other day even though it’s baseline ugh

muted blaze
#

I SAY THIS AND I SOMEHOW FORGET COMMANDER REROLLS ALL THE TIME!!! DESPITE THE FACT ALL COMMANDERS HAVE IT

#

I also like... somehow know all weapons threat by heart so know when overwatch triggers

vagrant grotto
#

This is why all my reaction abilities are optionals, subconsciously

muted blaze
#

Is it possible to get a foundry plugin to have "Reminder" menu, maybe even a macro, opens a menu that has a bunch of preset conditions

vagrant grotto
#

Overwatch is easy, I grew up on 3.5e attacks of opportunity

muted blaze
#

Archer starts supresss, start macro on target which pushes message to chat "if target moves"

vagrant grotto
#

In some cases

#

But not that one

#

Though if you wrote the macro it could hook in

muted blaze
#

"If, [enemy/character/ally] moves into range X" and all it does is post a message to chat

#

Macros are JS right?

vagrant grotto
#

Yup

muted blaze
#

I don't know the Foundry API but I could probs learn it... Problem is motivation, I can code however I struggle to outside of "work" hours

vagrant grotto
#

Valid tbf

granite saddle
#

Brain blast moment

#

Empath 2 does nothing with your alt rules

#

Similarly, there are issues with briareos, stasis shielding, adaptive reactor, (minor, but heatfall coolant system)

#

We already talked about some of those, but since they're in the pdf officially now, I'm putting them here too

vagrant grotto
#

Adaptive reactor, I’d probably expand it to let the person pick an extra option when stabilizing

#

Like Tagetes

#

Now, Reactor Stabilizer… that’s a problem

#

Maybe something like “you can still use Self-Heat abilities while overheated. You still take the damage though”

#

Feels 3SP worthy

#

Empath 2: I don’t know why does being an Empath make an allied mech more resilient to critical damage

#

How about 1/scene, as a reaction take a condition intended for someone else

#

That way you can eat the Dazed from structure damage and have more flexibility in general

granite saddle
#

all of these work yeah

#

the real question is "are they good though" now

#

mainly stasis and adaptive

vagrant grotto
#

well given that Exposed is guaranteed, Stasis Shielding still gives you a measure of safety until your turn comes back around

Adaptive with an extra option I think would be pretty good? Clear 2 conditions, or clear burn and a condition (sounds good vs. Hives?)

granite saddle
#

Yeah

#

Until you slap that on a Tagetes with RSU, then it gets silly

vagrant grotto
#

I should run some more playtests soon, I'm worried about the Prism and the Torrent (and maybe the Occultist, in 2x Occultist scenarios)

#

and maybe the Hatchet now that Cleaving Retrieval only triggers on the next turn

granite saddle
#

Still applies

#

got some of your frames and licenses to test too

granite saddle
#

Alright so. With tony's campaign now over and winter break approaching, I might try to run some stuff in the next two weeks. First on the list is running https://discord.com/channels/426286410496999425/1323256473350045716 's Bloodhound GMless with all your house rules. Given the nature of the thing though, might not be great feedback to you, so is there anything in particular you'd like to see along with your house rules if I get to run a second game ?

#

Oh, that and applying for your game if it comes up during that time ofc

vagrant grotto
#

I very much want to see how Recharge Heat, Overheated Status, and Overcharge Rerolls play with anything and everything.

The alternative Structure Damage and Overheating tables would also be great though I anticipate they’d be significantly more warping

#

Oh: if you happen to run something that tests the variant lift drag rules, that would be dope

#

I know I can tighten those up somehow, but stress testing will show where the holes are

granite saddle
#

Alright

granite saddle
granite saddle
#

Oh ! Just one last thing : what kinda LL would be interesting to you ? Not too willing to go above LL9, but anything else is fine, and I don't really have a preference.

vagrant grotto
#

I spend a lot of time testing T1

#

So yeah if you run T2 tests that’d be great

granite saddle
#

Aight, on it

#

Already probing for interest as we speak

#

Oh right I have something else to say actually :
I really want to try to run the 1 stress rule like I would (only on exceeding HC, not reaching), so would you like to see how that works out, or would you really rather run with the "on reaching" version. I'm only asking because I'm willing to do it ofc, so don't be hesistate to tell me.

vagrant grotto
#

Actually

#

Do it my way please

#

I know it works with Exceeding (Stormtalus uses it for games with success, minus the Overheating status aspect) so I just wanna see what happens

granite saddle
#

Alright

#

Saves me some explaining at least

#

"yeah do like that document except not always" ugh

vagrant grotto
#

If you want some extra safety, feel free to try the “1 heat NPC invade” I’ve been floating too

granite saddle
#

Yeah

vagrant grotto
#

I gladly await your feedback

#

Sometimes I look at my rules and wonder if I’ve gone too fucking far, and other times I think I haven’t gone far enough

granite saddle
#

Time to test it then !

#

Also, for the sake of completion : what's your current take on the resetting of overcharge costs ? How many for free, how many for what amount, ...
Just so I can tell my players how they should be acting like it works

vagrant grotto
granite saddle
#

Noted

vagrant grotto
#

1 free per rest, 1 repair to completely reset

#

If I start changing repairs stop me I’ll probably change the reset too, but that’s not until later

static kernel
#

Ran an Occultist in a Holdout sitrep today, alongside some rebakes. My player's impression (and I see where they're coming from tbh) is that you have very little incentive to actually use Reap the Chaff against your own drones, since turning off reactions is extremely powerful

#

now granted we have a Gorgon, a Lycan, and a Heavy Gunner Death's head in our group, so we're definitely fairly loaded on reactions

vagrant grotto
#

I honestly thought it was the weather half of Jammed so that’s good to know I might need to tune it down

#

Or tune Reap up?

static kernel
#

or yeah, maybe tune down the default flock drone effect and tune up Reap. A full Burst 1 jam would probably be overkill i think?

vagrant grotto
static kernel
#

true! the fact that it spawns with 2 drones also definitely helps it a lot

vagrant grotto
#

Though I just thought of a weird thing to try to dissuade Dart + Reap if it’s too strong

#

Add ordnance tag to Reap

#

Or make it a full action I suppose

#

That would justify the aoe jam for sure

static kernel
#

maybe another optional that lets reap target 2 drones?

vagrant grotto
#

Which optional would you drop for such a thing?

#

But also 2x reap doesn’t solve the issue of “reap isn’t worth it”

#

If it’s better to keep the drones in the first place

static kernel
#

i feel like slow might not be punishing enough since there are plenty of builds that don't want to move and keeping it burst 1 is not particularly painful if your goal is to move anyways

#

uhh, the player suggested that they could instead take damage/heat on reaction instead of having them turned off, like that one gorgon drone?

vagrant grotto
#

Ah like sentinel

#

Okay yeah no that makes sense

#

Completely forgot that Heat was designed for the soft control role I want these drones to fill

#

Okay this is all good feedback; feel free to leave more but I gotta get to bed for now

static kernel
#

heat would also make it like a weird spite-like, which i like

#

sure thing, thanks

vagrant grotto
#

Hopping from #1334655875679260692 , thinking about rebaking Exotic template as the “Aunic” template

#

Idea had: Attack that ejects your soul from your mech and you need to get back to it in time or bad things happen

muted blaze
#

Alls fun and games until the exotic pulls out THE UNMATCHED POWER OF THE SUN

tepid arch
#

Aunic stuff as a template is fun (I've done that), but, man, there's a lot of stuff in the old field guide that should absolutely be "DO NOT TOUCH", haha.

vagrant grotto
#

@static kernel I'm reworking Reap the Chaff, what do you think of this:

Reap the Chaff
System, Overshield, Shield, Full Tech
Target up to 2 controlled DRONES or allied GRUNTS in SENSORS. Destroy them and apply these effects:
• Allied characters adjacent to a target gain OVERSHIELD 4/6/8 and clear one condition.
• Hostile characters adjacent to a target gain LOCK-ON and must pass an AGILITY save or become JAMMED until the end of their next turn.
static kernel
#

oh, 2 drones at base? I would maybe suggest that you can't apply the same effect to both drones, and each drone needs to choose one or the other effect maybe?

vagrant grotto
#

Notable changes:

  1. Full tech instead of Quick Tech
  2. can target up to 2 drones/grunts now
  3. Applies both allied and hostile effects
  4. increased allied overshield by +2
  5. changed hostile to guaranteed Lock-on and save vs Jammed
#

I think it may be overtuned in this iteration

static kernel
vagrant grotto
#

I may just make it "pick 1 drone"

static kernel
#

cause, just thinking about my current holdout combat, that could with some bad rolls have resulted in a full team jam, which would basically be a game-ender

vagrant grotto
#

got it, I'll limit it to 1 drone or grunt

#

I also changed the FLOCK Drone adjacency effect for hostile characters to "1 heat per action while adjacent"

static kernel
#

when you say action, does that include quick, full, and reaction?

vagrant grotto
#

All of those are actions, so yes

static kernel
#

yeah no that sounds pretty fair. just in terms of language i'm wondering if things like protocols or free actions would also qualify here

vagrant grotto
#

those are also actions, so yes

static kernel
#

that's definitely punishing, but 1 heat is a cost that's easy to pay so it's probably fine

vagrant grotto
#

yup and the counterplay is "walk 1 space away"

#

disrupts protocols and ordnance at least (which I'm fine with), and combos with immobilize/overwatch buddies

static kernel
#

full action and only 1 drone on Reap definitely incentivises focusing more on either harrassing the enemy backline or supporting your own, which is an interesting choice to build around imo

vagrant grotto
#

@granite saddle When you get the chance, can you let me know how this wording sounds on "Magpie" Subroutines?

“Magpie” Subroutines
Trait, 2 Heat (Self), Quick Action

Destroy one of the following:
• An adjacent wreckage.
• A weapon or system equipped by the Vulture.
• A weapon or system equipped by a willing adjacent character.

The Vulture or a character in 5 then gains one of the following benefits:
• RECHARGE one weapon or system.
• Repair one destroyed weapon or system.
• All LIMITED weapons and systems regain 1 use.
• Gain OVERSHIELD 4/6/8 and clear 1 condition.
#

Asking since you mentioned the new wording to be awkward

vagrant grotto
#

Also, I'm floating a rewording of Prismatic Projection for the Prism, which may make it clearer what is being deployed? (a hologram projector is being deployed, and it projects the Prism in its space):

Place an untargetable holographic **projector** in a free space within SENSORS. The Prism is treated as occupying a projector’s space for RANGE, THREAT, SENSORS, line of sight, adjacency, engagement, contesting objectives, being affected by abilities, or any other purpose. The Prism has RESISTANCE to all damage, heat, and burn inflicted through a projector.

If the Prism would have more than 1 projector, it must destroy any beyond that limit. Projectors last until the end of the scene, or until the Prism is STUNNED, JAMMED, overheated, or destroyed.
#

if that actually improves comprehensibility, I'll commit to the change

granite saddle
vagrant grotto
#

Glad it’s streamlined!

granite saddle
#

Alright then, no loader buddies for the snipers I guess

#

I do wonder how you ended up with a "姄" in there though (unless that's just my phone being weird)

#

Especially since I'm almost certain I know what it means but I forgot, and now you've got me wanting to go dig my old chinese notebooks back up.

granite saddle