#Elden Ring (DLC hype room)

1 messages · Page 72 of 1

proven cloak
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I mean glintstone as a terrestial study, rather than the stars themselves

unreal bloom
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ah yeh

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she's older than that for sure

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she predates all non-finger life

proven cloak
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shes so old

unreal bloom
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Metyr, Old Lady

proven cloak
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and yeah, I think the idea she predates the crucible is a pretty solid speculation

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seems right enough

unreal bloom
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I'm pretty sure the Crucible is the Panspermia explosion from the dust of the Elden Beast

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Elden Beast and Metyr, spiraling to earth trailing stardust in the form of runes, sprouting into life

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As depicted in Elden Stars and described by Ymir

proven cloak
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I have been bouncing around the idea that the Elden Beast came after Ruah built the divine towers, and those summoned it

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but pretty much any evidence for that could just as easily be exalting the (even older) landing of the EB, so its impossible to tell either way

unreal bloom
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My timeline is as such

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Life originates in Metyr and Elden Beast, fragments of stardust giving birth to life in the form of the Crucible of Life, evolving in different directions

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They are abandoned, the Greater Will gives no advice, so Metyr chooses a path of active control and chooses those she deems worthy of divinity, while Elden Beast simply finds the strongest lords and follows with them until they fail or are deemed unworthy

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Both are expressions of the mandate of heaven, the divine right of kings, because they're drawn to power or bestow it upon chosen candidates

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Placidusax was once chosen, and for a time was king of the world, ruling from the skies alongside the Elden Beast, in the era of the Crucible

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Then Bayle was like "AAAAAAAAAA" and beat Placidusax up and Elden Beast was like "you lost, turn in your gun and crown" and moseyed to find a stronger god

proven cloak
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I didn't hear no bell

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on a long enough timescale Placi got the dub for sure with the drake-knight scheme

unreal bloom
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It's true but in the meantime his kingdom collapsed into civil war

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and he was brutally dismembered, a husk of his former self

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which left a power vacuum for the mandate of heaven, a path for a new god-king to rise

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Metyr picked a bunch of dorks to be gods in this time, sending them off to the gate of divinity

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but then Marika showed up and Metyr was like "oh shit babe you can make it to the top, you got this honey, don't let anyone tell you what you can and can't do (except me)" and Marika ascended but then was like "AND ANOTHER THING I'M THE LAST ONE BUCKO" and broke the crucible and named herself the only true god, and the Elden Beast was like 👀 "ooh what's goin on over here"

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so there's basically three eras

proven cloak
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yeah broadly where I'm at

unreal bloom
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  1. Earliest life, society begins, life spreads, fingers all over the damn place
  2. Placidusax, Age of Dragons and Crucible, lotsa gods but one head honcho god-king in the sky
  3. Woman Literally Too Angry To Be Put Into Jar, Declares Herself The One True God, More At 11
proven cloak
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Ruah (and Ancient Dynasty too, I guess) and all that would be around the very oldest?

unreal bloom
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Somewhere between 1 and 2

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and then there's era 4. Shit's broke and you gotta fix it

proven cloak
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dungs broke and you gotta eat it

unreal bloom
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The only real hint we have for Rauh is that it's implied to be the era of the Giants

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Before they all got cursed by the Fell God anyway

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The Old Gods of the Hornsent are described as bigtime giants, hosts to all of the crucible's blessings, and several giant corpses are found in the specimen storage chamber

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The giants invented blacksmithing and were heavily associated with fire, and anvils were their altars

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The Forge of the Giants has the same architecture as Rauh

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The Eternal Cities were ruled by giants, as well

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The corpses of giants are all over the place, too, they're everywhere

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In the Lands Between, especially, particularly in the Forbidden Lands and Caelid

signal harness
outer flint
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💀

proven cloak
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^ Old Gods* be like

atomic marsh
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and it fits perfect

real shadow
lilac condor
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I'm reminded of how everything in LoL is coded as a minion

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I wonder if it's an industry standard practice and we just never notice it in most games because it works 99% of the time

unreal bloom
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can confirm

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it's mostly about colliders and how you program targeting for events or effects

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it's way easier to just use an invisible dummy character for a lot of things

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unrelated: Metyr kinda looks like the central pillar of the Elden Ring

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pretty neat

proven cloak
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for sure the tail and the top (life?) rune / Marika's rune are similar

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not sure what to take from that though, tbh

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esp when Metyr predates the Elden Ring

unreal bloom
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I think probably the main takeaway is just the high crux of the Elden Ring being aligned with connection to the divine

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The Hornsent created the Divine Gateway using hexing sorcery based on the Elden Ring, with the gateway placed at the top and enshrined in the Elden Ring
Metyr forms the same crux to summon the microcosm of the Greater Will
Marika made it her symbol and the symbol of her empire after ascending to godhood, and eventually was crucified by the source of her divinity when she tried to escape it

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In all cases it's the rune of divine ascension or communication

unreal bloom
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oh also a fun bit

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Jori proves that Hornsent have horns all over, not just on their heads

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i want their clothes...

proven cloak
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could represent bounty, or receiving the divine as well

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though both reads still work with it as a 'rune of life'

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esp with how the same shape crops up with the Bird Warriors + their spell, the Hornsent's golden arcs, and (kind of) Siluria's tree

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I've thought about the shape of Marika's rune a bit because its not as easy to understand why its shaped like that compared to Radagon's

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his is a trellis, its a needlework stitch, it crosses borders and binds things together - he's a champion of the 'refined' Golden Order and the Elden Lord who united Liurnia with Leyndell, and then worked the firsts ideas into the second. Its hard to notice because its 'less important' than the other runes, but its an omnipresent background element.

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He's literally what holds the fractured pieces of Marika together by the end, and worked (to little affect) to keep the Elden Ring locked in place

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solid, pretty easy read

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why is the symbol for life (or blessings, or communication with the divine) a stick with an arc

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🤷

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'just because' is totally valid too, it could just be this is a shape representative of divinity, but I want to consider the options

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spiral sigil equates it to hands reaching upwards, could be a basin ||or crucible|| like the Shadowtree Challice tower's design, could represent something with the sun or the earth (big circles in space, with energy coming off / hitting them?)

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could be a radar dish

lilac condor
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I like the "blessing being poured from the POV of the person receiving the blessing" interpretation

proven cloak
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its what the shadow trailer did with it

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with the Scadutree dripping it over the purge

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which is also a hard as fuck way to indicate Marika as the reason the purge is happening in the first place

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I think 'collected blessings' is my read too

lilac condor
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the various great runes could then be interpreted as spiral currents as they move towards/away from you

proven cloak
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which would work very well with the Elden Beasts own innards, which literally flow

unreal bloom
proven cloak
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well yeah thats also true

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I think theres probably a bit of Odin hanging himself on Yggdrasil there too, but only the bare minimum

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games actually not that norse in its mythos

unreal bloom
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Oh, there's one other place it shows up in that demonstrates it's the rune of communication with the divine

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The dragon priestess wears it

proven cloak
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thats interesting

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I didnt notice that

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imo, the long hornsent face shawl on the inquistors is also supposed to evoke it

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with their horns mostly flaring to the sides and up from their heads

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theres other horns creeping around, but this is the main shape

lilac condor
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that implies hornsent barbers

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manicurists?

unreal bloom
lilac condor
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what do you call someone who trims horns for a living?

languid tiger
proven cloak
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Omenkillers

proven cloak
lilac condor
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idk the game just doesn't give us much outside of fighting our way to the next boss

languid tiger
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it's not like they were a civilization made entirely of mindless killer robo-racists

proven cloak
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pre-dlc, I never connected his head shape with Marika's rune

unreal bloom
lilac condor
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when it's such a fascinating world to play around in

unreal bloom
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I can't find any screenshots of the dragon priestess that are from the back, so here's the best I could find which is quite funny in that it's apparently a woodcarving pattern someone made of her

proven cloak
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it does end up funny that 80% of the lands between by landmass is just gravesites though

unreal bloom
proven cloak
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and honestly, thematically appropriate!

proven cloak
unreal bloom
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Makes sense given that Placidusax was the god-king of the era who ruled alongside an unknown deity (probably the Elden Beast) in the age of the Crucible

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And clearly used the power of the Elden Ring

proven cloak
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and ofc is making the same sort of spiral pose in his cutscene

unreal bloom
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Notably, Placidusax is almost certainly a Divine Beast of the Hornsent and it makes sense he would be seen as a god to them

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He is literally the heart of the storm

proven cloak
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thinking I've been a tutelary diety myself lately.... the way I'm going Beast Mode 😎 😎 🥶

unreal bloom
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me when I am spiralin

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Similarly, he's trying to contact his god

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So he mimics the spiral topped by an arc

signal harness
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I’m doubtful that the dragons were affiliated with the hornsent but there’s definitely some common stuff going on there symbolically

unreal bloom
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Placidusax was the God-King during the age of the Hornsent but they weren't particularly attached to him outside of probably worshipping him as a divine beast

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The one point of connection is that their society is known for doing lion dances, and a common accompaniment to the lion dance irl is the dragon dance

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And you can only become a true dragon in the lands of the Hornsent

proven cloak
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hard to tell how old Farum is, or how long Placi's been waiting

lilac condor
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I'm not sure that's right. The hornsent just don't have any dragon iconography associated with them. Or use of gravel stone

proven cloak
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it could be the Hornsent rose up in the aftermath of his god 'fleeing', and a time with no (singular?) god of the Elden Ring

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the trailer pretty directly equates whatever Marika did at the Divine Gate to the Elden Beast

unreal bloom
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me and the gang on my way to perform dragon communion

c1_3885287.png
proven cloak
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could've been the whole thing was an attempt to recall the ring after it was lost

unreal bloom
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I wonder if they were going to give the hornsent a dragon dance and decided against it

proven cloak
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the chained lions in the base game make me think it was always gonna be beasts

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esp with that cut arena fight with the snake guys versus the horned lions

unreal bloom
proven cloak
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the spiral is shared with both, and theres a lot of beast-y stuff

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both very golden

unreal bloom
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Dragon scales are also equated to horns pretty often

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They're implied to be quite Crucible-powered

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Actually, outright stated by direct implication

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Placidusax was powered by the Elden Ring, which in that era was based in the Crucible, at least

lilac condor
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A thought I had while fighting Godfrey earlier tonight; he only has the front half of a lion gnawing on him. Serosh just ends at his ribcage. Which would fit with Godfrey being a former lion dancer, and specifically the front half of the pair

signal harness
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What evidence is there that Placidusax ruled when the hornsent were a thing?

unreal bloom
signal harness
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And the Erdtree didn’t predate Marika, ok that tracks

proven cloak
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nothing concrete that he was still active when they were doing their thing, but they were also trying to reach 'the heavens'

unreal bloom
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It's also likely that he lost the mandate of heaven when he didn't win against Bayle

proven cloak
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and revered the messengers of the storm, the divine beasts

unreal bloom
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Which left a power vacuum that Marika lucked into

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I consider it pretty much a done deal that the god of the dragons was the Elden Beast

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also called the Nebula Dragon in game files

proven cloak
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definitely the strongest pick if its a character we see, imo

unreal bloom
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yeh

proven cloak
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I think it might just be a empty space used to kind of underline the same story as Marika - god leaving and throwing the society into ruin

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but thats just cause I find it hard to think of the EB as having wants or fleeing in the same way as a person

unreal bloom
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Other indications of the connection between the dragons and the crucible are what their hearts look like, and that one of the Aspects Of The Crucible is Flame Breath

proven cloak
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the red + gold nature of lightning

lilac condor
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society in ruins and the lorediggers in shambles lolsadcowboy

proven cloak
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the other aspects being "horns" and "wings" and "feathers", which the dragons have*
(*ok only the newer dragons have feathers but they're even more crucible-y)

lilac condor
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It's like they were messing with anyone trying to reconstruct a timeline by placing an entire civilization outside of time

unreal bloom
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naw we got a very solid timeline

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Beasts and Dragon era -> Dragon civil war, Hornsent times -> Marika got the aux and she's not giving it back

signal harness
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Yeah the timeline is pretty good but there’s some hard to place stuff

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Like the death bird civilization

unreal bloom
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Hornsent era almost certainly

proven cloak
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I think they were actually coterminus with the hornsent

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yeah

unreal bloom
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In fact I'll say definitively

proven cloak
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given the deathbird golems

unreal bloom
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The Hornsent are specifically described as hexers as well

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And their tools use Rancor

proven cloak
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they've got the same sort of sacrificial theming

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Cerulean Coast + Charo being blue + red coastline

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only place a deathbird shows up in the dlc, only place tibia mariners do

unreal bloom
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They're also spirit-worshippers, and horns are described as Envoy's Wings, relating to the Deathbirds who are stated to be Envoys of the Outer God of Death

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They also worship evolution and the spiral of life and death

proven cloak
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the Outer God bits makes me want to tie them to Ruah, with its (implied?) rot worship

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and the fact their tech built the golems

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so maybe slightly older than hornsent but existing alongside them

unreal bloom
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yeh

proven cloak
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post Ruah?

unreal bloom
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Hornsent were slightly post-Rauh

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Rauh was their archeological site

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but was so close to them in time and was so closely connected to the crucible that they had settlements and churches there

proven cloak
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I think there was enough of a gap for at least part of Ruah to splinter into the Fire Giants

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my read is that Ruah existed at the same time as the old forge dungeons

unreal bloom
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The giants were the oldest civilization known

proven cloak
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and then left behind traces like the divine towers

unreal bloom
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They were so old they invented blacksmithing

lilac condor
proven cloak
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I don't think all the giant civs were specifically the fire giants, though

unreal bloom
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Naw, there are lots of giants

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or there were

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not many left after the golden order swept through

lilac condor
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I also like the interpretation of them as a meteorite cult, forging the iron/other metals they found in them

unreal bloom
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I think we know what happened to the Fire Giants, because we see it happening to the Fire Monks

proven cloak
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obsessed with the flame

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talisman text that they loved to reshape the terrain with roars + the fact the hornsent feared their god

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definitely seems like they used the fire too

signal harness
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Hawk Ruah forge on that no

lilac condor
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I'm not sure there was a specific giant civilization. Just successive splinter groups that worshipped the Fell God

proven cloak
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I think the different groups in ER are a lot muddier, spieces-wise, than they often get treated

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like I think the giants are just Big People, in the same way the hornsent are People, with Horns

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the divine towers definitely dont seem to have been built for giants to use as buildings

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at least none the size of the fire giants

lilac condor
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not much architecture that's built for giants anywhere in game

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just the forge of the giants I guess

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TLB need some serious work to become ADA compliant

proven cloak
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Ruahs got some pretty high ceilings, I could see troll-sized people living there

unreal bloom
# proven cloak obsessed with the flame

A giant mass of intermingling Crucible attributes. Rumored to have sprouted upon giants and is known as the "mother of Crucibles" in ancient tower lore.

The art of smithing is said to have originated among the giants.

Mining tool of stonedigger trolls used to crack bedrock. Trolls are descended from the giants, and these were supposedly once used as ceremonial smithing tools. In the distant past, smithing was considered divine.

In ancient times, smithing was a divine act, and blacksmiths interpreted the script they perceived in the wrinkles of molten steel to imbue weapons with souls.

Fire beguiles those who gaze into it. And so the guardians of the flame are also its worshippers.

Releases a ball of raging fire said to be inhabited by a fell god.

The ice dragons were once lords of the mountaintops long ago, until they were defeated by the Fire Giants and chased from the peak.

The Fire Giants borrowed from the power of a fell god, and still they were defeated. Yet their failure released them from their solitary curse: to serve as keepers of the Flame for eternity.

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They made blacksmithing into a religion, where they stared deep into the heart of molten steel and flame, and eventually they became entranced by an evil god living inside flames. The giants migrated to the mountaintops, dethroned the dragons who ruled there, and created a forge made of their god's fire, which could never die, but would instead burn eternally. The flame of ruin.

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And they became possessed and enslaved by that divinity and its flames

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one consistent thread is that the dragons are basically the dinosaurs of elden ring

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they're the oldest known beings and are always stated to be the original rulers of stuff

frail sky
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Placidusaurus saxx

proven cloak
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and how golden meteorite ore is used to improve weapons by a (misbegotten, crucible-connected) smith

lilac condor
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Hadn’t noticed the script before

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Guess it’s in the name lol

proven cloak
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and that misbegotten are found near the forges

lilac condor
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Has anyone managed to compare it to the two finger’s language of light on the coded sword? That would let us place the forges as pre- or post-metyr’s landing

proven cloak
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its similar, but in the same way that its similar to the EB's attacks

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the Elden Ring itself is made of runic script

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though the ERs is a little rougher than the cipers, which are almost like cursive

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let me see if I can get images

proven cloak
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they also made the multiplayer items

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and she being the first 'falling star' to land

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special shout out to the coffin-text too

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which also looks the same

lilac condor
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Oh yeah that’s true she is the first

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Thanks for digging those up

unreal bloom
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they all have the little swirl of a spiral and the circle of runes at the outside

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and the fingercreeper ashes cast a healing spell that's just those effects

proven cloak
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but for the couple minutes it took to check I was going crazy about it

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they are edited a little bit, Lord's Heal as the spiral even more pronounced, so its probably intentional + just shows the devs were intentional in re-using their old motifs, like with the stone dragons.

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or how the ER version adds more + spikier clusters of light, like trails of stars

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and obv the two fingers sigil on the ground

real shadow
outer flint
vivid spire
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Amazing

unreal bloom
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oh yeh I forgot the hard confirm that the Hornsent were behind all those who live in death that aren't caused by deathroot, and were the ones behind the gravebirds

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The ancient death hex is definitely their deal, they're the ghostflame folks from before the age of the erdtree

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The Gravebirds are all over Enir-Ilim and use spiral magic and you find the Gravebird helm on an altar there, with the Gravebirds having been made to support the Deathbirds, who are stated to have offered priests of old eventual resurrection after death in exchange for being their guardians

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The grave keepers are stated to be ancient guardians who keep watch over the dead in the land of shadow, and gained the power to raise the dead

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So yeh the Hornsent are the source of most of the death sorceries and all the rancor items
It actually neatly wraps up pretty much all the death lore, aside from the outer god of death who is largely unimportant

old brook
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The Outer Gods seem largely uninterested 'cept for ol' Chaos Flame

proven cloak
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it was already implied horns had spiritual potency in the base game, and the dlc furthered that

gray leaf
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miquela is just so well-written...

old brook
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Every bit of dialog in the DLC rules

frozen olive
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sure is one hell of a fucking motivator too

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||"Lord Mohg will have his dignity"||

proven cloak
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huh, I never noticed until today that the Fine Feather talisman has insect wings, and not just bird down feathers

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that the crucible used to manifest insect bits on people - especially butterfly wings - feels kind of important

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(Deathroot, Formless Mother, and esp Rot all have heavy bug motifs.)

old brook
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The fly people don't seem stoked about it

proven cloak
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well, uh.....

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they're buggin?

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I think its another little point towards the Outer Gods as forces removed, or at least once functioning within, the crucible

proven cloak
old brook
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That damn old man had me from line one of the trailer

real shadow
gray leaf
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...for bonus points: the original grafting was intended to bring about moral gain, as twisted as it was. Godrick's grafting is solely in service of power.

proven cloak
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'lost' power, too

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that he's trying to capture Godfrey's strength

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through the same sort of things that led Marika to establish the GO

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fun stuff

proven cloak
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^ Marika

unreal bloom
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The real wacky implication of the grafting lore is Rykard

old brook
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The rare Self-Graft

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Internal style

unreal bloom
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More than that

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His plan was to literally graft the entire planet together into one organism

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The grafting revelation turns him from a pure evil freakazoid into just a freakazoid

old brook
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I'd love to hear what his plans were after that

unreal bloom
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I think that was his main plan really

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When you look at it it isn't even that bad a plan relative to the others, it's just completely warped

old brook
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It's why his men turned on him, went from ambition to wanton gluttony

unreal bloom
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Rykard actually is a good ending but only from a crazy point of view

lilac condor
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graft the planet

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is anyone else now imagining a l33t rykard?

old brook
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The flailing blood arms don't seem like it's a super fun afterlife

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Also he does have the beard of someone that could code in the 90s so hackerman Rykard tracks

lilac condor
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70637H4444 W3 5H411 D3V0U4HHHH 7H3 V3rY 60D5555

unreal bloom
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Under the golden order, every member of Marika's family is immortal

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Sacred sword of Rykard, Lord of Blasphemy.
Remains of the countless heroes he has devoured writhe upon the surface of this blade.
Now they share the same blood, bound together as family.

old brook
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At least some of em die enough to become ghosts

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But that's probably all the magma

proven cloak
unreal bloom
proven cloak
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I think he's still the worst of all the demigods. Except maybe Messmer.

unreal bloom
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Naw, he's better than Messmer by far

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Rykard is in many ways one of the nicer and more heroic demigods which really does say a lot about the demigods

proven cloak
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yeah but I dont want ops for coming at Messmer

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I think its almost, hmm

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worse that Rykard was heroic

lilac condor
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Before he became the snake, he was the golden order's professional torturer

proven cloak
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he fell a lot further than like, Mohg

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also yeah

lilac condor
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there's no part of that that's heroic

unreal bloom
proven cloak
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he did try to awake to the cruelties of the Golden Order

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its just his main criticism was

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"I should be on top"

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its not like he stopped the torture at volcano manor lmao

unreal bloom
obtuse halo
proven cloak
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Messmer is also real bad

old brook
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Rykard owns a bridge specially for lowering live people into a volcano

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None of these demigod dipshits are good

unreal bloom
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"The Tarnished were forced to scavenge, squabbling for crumbs. Like the shardbearers, vying for power in the wake of the Shattering. Our Lord, indignant, has refused. To scurry about, fighting over what miserly scraps they allow us. If the Erdtree, and indeed the very gods, would debase us so, then we are willing to raise the banner of resistance, even if it means heresy."

old brook
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The war on the mountain was so bad both sides started going Mad and some eating eachother

proven cloak
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yeah but I think Taker's Cameo is pretty damning

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"When Rykard turned to heresy, taking by force became the rule. The gods themselves were no different, after all."

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He lost faith in the GO

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but didn't strive to be better than it

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merely enrich his own personal power

old brook
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The whole of the manor is to trick strong people into being devoured by a snake

proven cloak
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(the snake-mixing might've had something to do with this, and his 'degeneration into mere greed.')

unreal bloom
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She's honest to a fault really

old brook
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Withholds Truth

proven cloak
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those principles are a little abhorent imo

unreal bloom
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oh yeh for sure

proven cloak
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The strong take

unreal bloom
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sith shit

proven cloak
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I dont think shes lying

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but its a pretty rough worldview

unreal bloom
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It's pretty funny that Ranni trusted Rykard and loved him enough as a brother that her plan if she failed or died was to let him run wild in her place

proven cloak
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I do love that Bernhal doesnt hold you killing Rykard against you though

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for the same reason

old brook
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"Mask forced on a victim's head to lend torture an extra degree of cruelty.
It magnifies one's fears and makes them acutely aware of all forms of pain.

Raises attack power when the wearer suffers from madness.

When the Black Dumpling goes on, the torturer no longer seeks answers; only to inflict suffering without hope of relief."

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Rykard was Never Righteous

unreal bloom
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On the night of the dire plot, Ranni rewarded Praetor Rykard with these traces. Should the coming trespass one day transpire, they would serve as a last-resort foil, allowing Rykard to challenge Maliketh the Black Blade, the black beast of Destined Death.

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I find it so funny that lorewise everyone really liked Rykard except Morgott

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and he was apparently extremely kind to his family and those close to him

old brook
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God Malekith would have slapped the hell out of Rykard that's a fight I'd like seeing

proven cloak
unreal bloom
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but in-game he's just like TOGETHAAAAA

proven cloak
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he's like a dark mirror to Godfrey + the Tarnished in general

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ideologies that venerate strength and survival, the blending of flesh into one mass, sheer ambition and taking through killing

unreal bloom
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One thing that's interesting is that Rykard was almost certainly inspired to feed himself to the snake, and engage in rebellion against the Erdtree, by Messmer

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Not by Messmer telling him to do so, but by seeing Messmer, who he was, and what happened to him

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They were apparently part of the same force originally, you can find symbols of messmer all over volcano manor

lilac condor
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IIRC Rykard's boss room also has the Belurat spiral columns in it

unreal bloom
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The statues of winged serpents are extremely prominent

unreal bloom
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The thing about Rykard is that, for all of his evil and all of his plans being "get eaten and then live forever as part of me," his plan genuinely does mark an extremely different future that deviates from everything before it aside maybe from the earliest era of the Crucible

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Much like the Dung Eater he offers a true paradigm shift

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It just sucks

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Speaking of the Godskin and Belurat, the connections there are pretty fascinating in general

#

My theory about the Gloam-Eyed Queen is that she was Melina, because that makes the most sense and has the most evidence for it throughout the game in my view, but I think an equally viable theory is that the GEQ was the Empyrean of the Hornsent

#

Their equipment and iconography is entirely based in Enir-Ilim and the Divine Gateway

lilac condor
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Tbh I don't see much connection between the hornsent and the godskins. I'm not even sure that there are any items in SotE that reference the GEQ

unreal bloom
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Their sacred seal also appears to depict the divine gateway, and their spell sigil depicts it inverted

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The process by which they subsume divine flesh is also referenced as resembling the Crucible

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Nobles are the most ancient apostles who are said to have assimilated inhuman physiology. Not unlike the crucible, the Erdtree in its primordial form.

lilac condor
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You're saying the seal looks like the PCR divine gate?

unreal bloom
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yeh

lilac condor
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how?

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sorry I'm not seeing it

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unless you mean just the two little prongs at the end of the seal?

unreal bloom
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Two central pillars atop a spiral forming a triangular gateway

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yeh

lilac condor
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I feel like that's a stretch. It's not something that happens in iconography much

unreal bloom
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what doesn't

lilac condor
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If the seal is meant to represent the gate, then everything besides those two prongs is detracting from its purpose/distancing it from the gate imagery. It's no longer gate like

unreal bloom
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I think that combined with the spiral imagery of the Godslayer Greatsword and references to the Crucible it's a reasonable assessment but it is dubious yeh

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There's also the fact that Hornsent uses blackflame which is pretty mysterious

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and I feel like is probably a glitch

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My personal overall theory for the GEQ is still that it was Melina, and that she hunted the Hornsent gods for Marika alongside Messmer before betraying her mother and trying to seize the throne with her army of experienced godslayers

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Possibly due to being one of the group that was so impressed by the divine tower that they formed a secret faith venerating it within the invasion force

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Possibly due to the realization that to eliminate the spiral of life and death would require the elimination of death and thus her power

proven cloak
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idk about the seal

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but the godskins are directly equated to the Crucible, yeah

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its also notable that the sky in Enir Illm is always golden sunshine now

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but in Marika's ascension trailer, it was a deep twilighty purple

unreal bloom
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My true meta theory is just that the GEQ was Friede but FromSoft didn't have enough time to go into it in DS3 or didn't have enough time to finish what they wanted to do, so they just took all the unfinished ideas and used them for ER

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Given just ingame info and the awareness that there's no planned future Elden Ring stuff, Melina makes the most sense imo

unreal bloom
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Some fun stuff about Melina btw:
Her armor contains design elements only seen in one other set, the Confessor Set, who were assassins sent out by the Two Fingers and utilized magic and tools that revolved around darkness and shadows. Her dagger is found in a hidden office near the Erdtree, alongside robes that reference magisterial officials who engage in executions, surveillance, and gruesome rituals. Her hood design is also exclusive to her, the Confessors, and the Godskin folks

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Based on this, it can be assumed that her role at some point before being burned to death was that of a hidden assassin for Marika and/or the Two Fingers

obtuse halo
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She also just happens to use a weapon that shares a moveset with the Black Knife, also irrevocably associated with Assassins

unreal bloom
#

Some of the strongest evidence of her being the GEQ is also that she was born with divine kindling inside of her like her older brother, and it seems to be a prophecy of some sort that "The one who walks alongside flame shall one day meet the road of Destined Death."

#

She is also a singularly driven individual who advocates for Destined Death not just because you need it to burn the tree, but actively seeks to revive Destined Death out of personal principle and ideology

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and Destined Death only affects the gods, the demigods, and their kin

frail sky
#

Where is that said?

unreal bloom
#

Miyazaki: "The Demigods' immortality stems from having their fated deaths removed from the Elden Ring."

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Interestingly, the Tarnished's immortality is not rooted in Destined Death or its removal from the Elden Ring

proven cloak
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I'm still in the camp that the respawn mechanic is only dubiously canon past the first

unreal bloom
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Naw it's canon

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One of the earlier characters even comments on it like "wait what I thought you died"

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Also you literally have to die repeatedly for one of the DLC quests, and there are items whose effects are directly stated to last until death

proven cloak
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yeah but the flasks also make a point that you 'surely would have perished' if not for the healing they provide, and unlike most of the other games it cuts to black when you lose to the Grafted Scion before you reach a 'you died' screen

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Im also not sure any other Tarnished ever get more than the intro respawn, and theres not as direct a reason why they wouldn't as Dark Souls provides

dusty kraken
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Well to be fair: Do we meet any other tarnished who still have Grace?

frail sky
proven cloak
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well, the Question would be why they wouldn't have it anymore

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you think our character just wins because we have Marika's Blessing more than anyone else?

frail sky
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I think the only one we see that might still have it is Godfrey?

proven cloak
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is it an internal motivation thing - did Gideon have grace for most of the game until the end? He certainly wanted to be Elden Lord

unreal bloom
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We actually know what causes someone to lose the guidance of grace, thanks to Corhyn

proven cloak
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plus we might not meet many Tarnished with grace

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but what of the other inhabitants of the Lands Between?

dusty kraken
#

Oh, Nepheli Loux still has grace!

unreal bloom
#

You lose the guidance of grace if you lose your resolve

dusty kraken
#

But she also is one of the only tarnished who doesn't really...die. She either gets Worse Than Death or ends the game alive.

unreal bloom
#

If you fail to follow through on the quest, you lose your grace

frail sky
#

Side note, I do appreciate we finally have a reason for why the “undead” npcs don’t respawn, in dark souls it was always kinda weird when you killed someone and they just stayed dead forever

proven cloak
#

the quest as in specifically the seeking of Lordship?

unreal bloom
#

Yes

proven cloak
#

Godfrey didn't really give up on that

unreal bloom
#

Corhyn gained the guidance of grace by refusing to recant prophecies of the Erdtree's destruction, then lost his grace by being a loser who was too faithful in the Erdtree to stand against it or follow the path

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Even after exile, Corhyn refused to recant his prophecies. And for this, he was blessed with the guidance of grace. Since then, the cart wheel draped on his neck has served as a reminder. That true guidance awaits those with iron wills. Those with unwavering faith.

frail sky
#

And also destined death was unsealed by that point

unreal bloom
#

Yeah, and his immortality was twofold

#

he got the tarnished immortality and the demigod immortality

proven cloak
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yeah but Destined Death doesn't have much to do with the Tarnished Immortality by the quote above

unreal bloom
#

So Destined Death being unbound would affect him, and losing his willpower in the face of you beating his ass would also cause him to lose his guidance

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Similarly, Gideon loses his immortality because he gives up

#

There's also one other demigod who persists beyond death thanks to the guidance of grace - Morgott, who lives even after you kill him, and only truly dies when Godfrey shows up

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He's unusual for this, too, to the point of it being his epithet, "Morgott the Grace-Given"

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The only demigod that dies outright is Godrick, and it's hard to tell if it's because you were just that tough or that he's still alive but is so pathetic he can't do anything but get the shit kicked out of him by Gostoc forever

proven cloak
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Radahn dies, given the dlc

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at least his soul moves on

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which is the same thing

unreal bloom
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yeah but we had to kill him twice and at that point he'd become something beside what he started as

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some sorta freakazoid

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so his demigod immortality might not have been in play anymore

kind garden
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the Rot seems to trump immortality by making you Something Else

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which makes sense in a weird way

unreal bloom
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Also Miquella might've fucked Radahn over by making him a Hornsent, causing his soul to feed the Scadutree instead of the Erdtree

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And the Scadutree offers no promise of revival

proven cloak
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I just think the Demigod Immortality is more a force of life extention than keeping them alive through any danger

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which, admittedly

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is weird with Godwyn

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idk maybe the shattering broke their immortality all around

unreal bloom
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Nah, Godwyn is the ultimate expression of it

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He cannot die, yet he is dead

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So he effectively has become a divine cancer

proven cloak
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yeah but its like
If we can cause demigods to turn into "dead yet still living chunks of meat" through violence, like how you suggest Rykard lives on

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why did Ranni do all that

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why not just shank him with normal knives

kind garden
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this is explained pretty thoroughly in the plot actually, she killed Godwyn and herself in an elaborate ritual to cause the Cursemark of Death to fragment so that she and Godwyn would both only half-die

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Ranni in body and Godwyn in spirit

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this is why you reclaim the Cursemark from her corpse so that it can be reunited with Godwyn's to grant him a true, total death and therefore revival

unreal bloom
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You can't kill the demigods properly without Destined Death being unbound, because removing Destined Death basically established the divine law of physics that is "Marika and her kin cannot die"
Godwyn only half-died, but his body lives on forever thanks to this rule. They tried to bury him at the base of the Erdtree to revive him, but that just caused him to grow mindlessly into the Erdtree's roots, spreading his state of mindless immortality throughout the land, affecting corpses all over

proven cloak
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Yeah but do you think it would've been possible to 'kill' Godwyn without the rune of death?

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at least to whatever extent we kill Radahn in the base game?

unreal bloom
kind garden
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to be fair, even with Destined Death bound, they can still kinda-sorta die, they just return to the Erdtree temporarily to be reincarnated iirc

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so I guess Miquella did something to interrupt that with Radahn and Mohg?

unreal bloom
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Hornsent/Omen souls don't return to the Erdtree, they presumably go to the Scadutree

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Miquella yoinked Radahn's soul en route to the Erdtree

proven cloak
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and Miquella grabbing Radahns soul is probably what happened there too

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but in that case we still cause bodily death

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while Godwyn's issue is that his body isnt dead

unreal bloom
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He lives

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in death

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A living body without a soul or a mind

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A cancerous lump, replicating pointlessly everywhere that the roots he's connected to touch

proven cloak
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rip to him but I'm different

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its at least the case by the time the Tarnished arrives that the demigods don't have an unkillable bodily vitality

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cause we kill them

unreal bloom
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Rogier mentions that Those Who live In Death didn't arise from heresy or whatever, but actually came from a flaw in the Golden Order: namely, that Godwyn wasn't allowed to die and that caused the rest of it

proven cloak
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(except Morgott, maybe, like you said)

real shadow
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Ranni's stack overflow any% speedrunning glitch basically keeps him from reincarnating.

unreal bloom
kind garden
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yeah

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Ranni exploited the code of reality to basically prevent the function that vanishes dead peoples' bodies from activating on Godwyn

unreal bloom
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Malenia lives on after you kill her, Miquella basically killed himself, Radahn's soul was on its way to be revived when it got yoinked, Rykard is snakin' all day and laughs about how you can't kill him, Morgott survives but you beat his ass so hard all his horns fall out and then he dies properly once you unbind Destined Death

#

Melina and Ranni can't entirely die even though they're dead, though Melina ends up finding a way

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The only ones we definitively kill are Godrick and Messmer

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Godrick wasn't a proper demigod anyway, though

real shadow
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Eeeeeh the game counts him as a demigod and you get a great rune, he was just a punk-ass bitch.

unreal bloom
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And Messmer had some kinda double jeopardy divine influence going on

unreal bloom
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and a weak and pathetic one at that

real shadow
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He's very much of Marika's bloodline but he's, idk 10 times removed or some shit, to where the blood is thin. Enough to be a demigod but an incredibly weak one.

proven cloak
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Mohg's body gets yoinked

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but the soul seems to leave once we kill him(?)

unreal bloom
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Omen/Hornsent souls don't go to the Erdtree

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Horns interfere with the Erdtree, or are banned from it on purpose out of spite

proven cloak
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tbh Rykard's survival I take as more the snake part than the other part

unreal bloom
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yeh

real shadow
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Rykard and the snake are one and are, by all practical measures, impossible to kill for good; they'll eventually regenerate, even if it takes years and years.

unreal bloom
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i do not like this precedent for lore

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here's the description of what the Elden Ring is

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Miyazaki: "Elden Ring is the name given to a mysterious concept that defines the world itself."[...] "The rings that you’re looking at in the logo are not so much a representation of those factions, as you put it, but more a representation of the law of the world, the rules and the order. This Golden Order is something that the Elden Ring may have once represented, but not directly. It’s more about how you apply those rules and how you enforce them on the physical world and what effects they have on it. So it’s more the influence of these demigods that existed a long time before and how they applied these concepts of order and discipline. That’s what’s being represented by the Elden ring and these overlapping intersecting rings."

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This is why the Spiral used to be part of the Elden Ring in the era of the Hornsent but isn't anymore

proven cloak
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closest you get is how its refered to as "The Order" or the "Concept of Order"

unreal bloom
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The part of the Elden Ring that once represented the Omen/Hornsent also got entirely removed, which is probably why they're banned from the tree

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They appear to be tied to the roots shown in the original Elden Ring from before the Erdtree

#

this is a unique sigil used only for the Omen Shackles

kind garden
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Neat

unreal bloom
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The modern Erdtree symbology has no roots whatsoever

#

Marika ditched a LOT of the ring just to oust the Hornsent and their Order

proven cloak
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the shadowtree itself is the leftover cuttings ripped out of the Erdtree

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(and speculatively, Radagon too)

unreal bloom
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Oh, unrelated, but some fun stuff btw, the Hornsent are referred to as 'Elders' in the base game and show up a couple of times as early-bird cameos

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Head covering made from the largely unaltered head of an impish golem. Resembling an elder, it holds trace amounts of arcane knowledge.

Mask with long, hideously twisted horns worn by the Omenkillers.
Increases strength. Bears the smirking face of an elder, twisted in wicked delight. This visage is carved in the image of the evil spirits that haunt the Omen in their nightmares.

proven cloak
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neat

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I caught the omenkiller one, but never noticed the Imp mask

unreal bloom
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I caught the imp mask but didn't catch the omenkiller using the same term

#

We actually know why they're referred to that way, too

#

Said to be a budding horn. The ancestral followers believed that the horns of a long-lived beast continue to bud like antlers, over and over again, until the beast one day becomes an ancestral spirit.

Only the repeated sprouting of fresh horns can create a tangled horn, which is viewed as an irrefutable symbol of primacy.

#

Horns grow with age

#

similarly, the horned lion enemies are referred to as Elder Lions or Old Lions by official sources

#

and then you got Jori, Elder Inquisitor, and the ancient horned creatures in Rauh that are absolutely exploding with horns

proven cloak
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Its not hard to imagine their investigations of godhood + Euporia as them collecting lifeforce, then

#

esp when they led to 'The Eternal'

unreal bloom
#

They did build a divine tower out of mashing people together

#

Something quite interesting about the Hornsent and Ancestral Followers is that they don't seem to distinguish between the dead and the living like other groups do

#

They stand side by side with their dead neighbors

#

And there seems to be no divide between ghosts and the living

#

Most of the Hornsent and Ancestral Followers you run into are spirits, and when the Hornsent Grandam gives you a guardian spirit, she refers to it as her son accompanying you to war, presenting the idea that they don't really see much of a difference between living people and spirits

#

There are places where Curseblades and Horned Warriors will beat your ass for messing with Hornsent spirits, too

proven cloak
#

Unless ripping it out of Maliketh zooped it over to the Elden Ring. I've heard some people offer that as an explanation for the red spear piercing Marika when you first see her.

unreal bloom
#

Like the Spiral is still so powerful that it can raise people to godhood, despite having been removed from the ring

#

Rune Arcs are just broken fragments of the ring, but can give you power, and Great Runes similarly grant their wielders extreme power

#

So the real thing about the rune of death is just that it needs to be locked away to prevent it from being an influence on the world

#

Removing it wasn’t enough

proven cloak
#

Cut content shows pretty clearly at one point the Shardbearers runes had specific meanings, which might still be the case

#

Godrick with the Rune of Grafting, the Twinblade of Abundance made of the runes of Abundance and Decay

#

Great Rune of the Unborn still follows that naming scheme

proven cloak
#

The twins runes specifically are interesting because it implies their curses come from the Elden Ring - Malenia is rotted because of a close connection to a ‘Rune of Rot’?

#

at least to me

#

considering their parent(s) are the Elden Ring, it makes sense

#

”hmm I wonder why all my kids keep being born with strong connections to random natural forces” <- woman who merged with the local concept of physics, bodily

#

also worth noting how despite the ER being the “rules of the world” each explicitly named Rune is connected mostly to how life functions

#

same with most / all the mending runes

#

no specific rune of Gravity, or rune of Thermal Exchange, or whatever

#

rotting, death, the unborn / rebirth, grace as granting life

unreal bloom
#

Just like the stars as a whole

proven cloak
#

I think theres probably some relation to regression and causality, and gravity weapons often do have specks of gold

#

but its true it might not be something controlled by the Elden Ring specifically, which is my point

#

its not so much the rules of the world as the rules of the functioning of life

#

runes and life are things caused by the Greater Will or its vassals

fleet bronze
#

I think there's a big question about whether the stars/the outer gods exist within the laws or not

proven cloak
#

🤷

#

though I lean away from the Outer Gods as stars specifically, given the couple of stars we meet aren't really associated with named Outer Gods

#

and most Outer Gods aren't particularly related to space-stuff (maybe the Blood Star, maybe the eclipse, nothing really for Rot)

#

could be, though!

#

I think they've each got a stronger association with death and rebirth, maybe with the flame (if it is an Outer God) as the exception

unreal bloom
#

The Ur-Rot was found in a Crucible bud

glossy delta
#

If that's what you mean, I understand that to be a fairly common interpretation that's cut off by the differently phrased japanese versions of the relevant lore passages

unreal bloom
#

It's just the earliest known incidence of the Scarlet Rot and the Spider-Scorpions appear to be kin of the Rot God and originate in the church of the bud

#

The bud itself is pretty much entirely indicated to be a bud of the Crucible and isn't indicated to be anything else

#

Helm worn by Devonia, longest-serving of the Crucible Knights. Holds the power of the crucible of life, the primordial form of the Erdtree. Strengthens Aspects of the Crucible incantations. It is said Devonia quested in search of the Crucible's origin, and departed from the lands of the Erdtree alone.

Aspect of the Crucible discovered in the ancient ruins. Creates a miranda flower on one's chest before calling down a rain of light. Charging increases potency. In an age long past, before this land was enshrouded in shadow, the vitality of the Crucible flourished.

A large, rotten bud that will never come into bloom. Material used for crafting items. Grows in lands blighted by the scarlet rot. There was a time when these buds were not touched by the scarlet rot's blight—when they were the symbol of the small church deep in the ancient ruins of Rauh.

#

A more accurate japanese translated description of Romina:

In the church consumed by flames,
Romina discovered a grotesque divinity.
She clung to the ominous Scarlet Rot,
so that she could bloom again among the burnt ruins.

proven cloak
#

Rot seems native to the planet, and representative of earthly life

proven cloak
#

my read is that all the Outer Gods might just be divine elements (either derived from the Elden Ring or the Fingers) that have malformed

#

Blood and lineages, both associated with the formless mother, definitely tie crucible-concepts

unreal bloom
#

yeh

unreal bloom
#

The Bloodfiends got their connection from the bleeding corpse of their Crucible-touched ancestor, Mohg got his from his own Crucible-touched blood, all of Mohg's troops are either Hornsent/Omen themselves or use Mohg's magic or blood, and Morgott similarly got his connection from his own blood even though he didn't want it

#

There's only one oddball outer god that disrupts the malformed divinity theory, and that's the Frenzied Flame, which seems to be a being on the level of the Greater Will

proven cloak
#

mhm

#

well

#

I think the Frenzied Flame itself is a byproduct of whatever happened to the fingers to make them 'broken'

#

which is why its symbols are so similar to the GW's symbols, but 'gone wrong'

#

eyeballs, but melted. A lightless abyss ringed in light, but a supernova instead of the universe.

unreal bloom
#

yeh, they're inversions of each other

#

The Greater Will is the darkness of space, the force that created the stars, the universe ringed by a boundary of light
The Frenzied Flame is the boundary of light at the edges of the universe, a misshapen broken exploding boundary of nothingness occluding a dark center with no stars

#

It's interesting and seems to be a consistent thread from the Dark Souls games that the Greater Will is a lightless abyss from which all life flows in the form of stars

#

Almost like a mirror universe where the Darksign/Abyss had never been sealed and became the source of holiness instead

proven cloak
#

yeah

#

its similar to the first flame as well

#

in being the force responsible for disparity

#

(and thus life + time)

#

Fits the themes of the game for darkness and light to be from a singular unifed source, and its really just the limited perspectives of people squabbling over doctrine that seperates them

#

the sword of Light and the sword of Darkness both do Holy damage.

#

The gold of the Scadutree Avatar is accompanied by shadow

#

That, and the focus on the movement of energy (Currents and channels and flowing water) feels very Taoist

frozen olive
#

||https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7NCXZKDfdY||

YouTube
옹발이 ONGBAL
Elden Ring - Inner Consort Radahn Is Insane (Inner Consort Hitless)

Great mod. I just wish there is more consistency in the meteor bombing and p3. There are many attack patterns not shown here, so maybe I'll try more later when the mod is more polished.

Inner Consort mod
https://www.nexusmods.com/eldenring/mods/6533

Mod Creator 👍
https://www.youtube.com/@UCQL-ce8cvX3MFIA8jFJoAAQ

00:00 Phase1
01:43 Phase2
02:...

▶ Play video
#

actual bruh moment

unreal bloom
#

There's a passage from the Tao Te Ching where I swapped out "The Way" for "The Greater Will" and it fit perfectly

# 
There was something formless and perfect before the universe was born. It is serene. Empty. Solitary. Unchanging. Infinite. Eternally present. It is the mother of the universe. For lack of a better name, I call it the Greater Will. It flows through all things, inside and outside, and returns to the origin of all things.

The Greater Will is great. The universe is great. Earth is great. Man is great. These are the four great powers.

Man follows the earth. Earth follows the universe. The universe follows the Greater Will. The Greater Will follows only itself.
#

Everything to do with the Elden Ring is deeply rooted in Taoism

#

Even Marika's empire and the Golden Order hark back to the original, more cosmic Taoism getting distorted by Confucius and later turned into a religious justification for a divinely-mandated central state ruling through force

#

Consider the origins of the Mandate of Heaven

In 1059 BCE, two unusual celestial phenomena took place: in May, the densest clustering in five hundred years' time of the five planets visible to the naked eye could be seen in the constellation of Cancer, and a few seasons later Comet Halley appeared. One or more of these was interpreted by the powerful Lord of Zhou as a visible sign indicating supernatural approval. Early records, such as the inscription on the Da Yu ding, employ language more descriptive than theoretical: "the great command in the sky" (天有大令).

Although both the Shang and Zhou claimed divine ancestry, the Zhou were the first to use the concept of the Mandate of Heaven to explain their right to assume rule and presumed that the only way to hold the mandate was to rule well in the eyes of Heaven.

#

The way that the position of Elden Lord functions and the way Marika and the Two Fingers designed her empire is that whoever can claim the throne and hold it through force is considered to be the rightful ruler in the eyes of the Greater Will, and if the throne holder can't defend that power then they're considered to have never deserved it, which is just the Mandate of Heaven

#

Meanwhile the actual Greater Will doesn't give even a single shit, because it's the original Taoist conception of a primeval force from which all things flow, a cosmic entity of debatable sentience and no real affiliation

#

The ones who actually care about the Mandate of Heaven are Metyr, Elden Beast, and the Fingers

kind garden
#

well

#

and the Frenzied Flame

#

but for different reasons

frozen olive
#

The mandate of heaven is mine, time to establish an eternal empire

unreal bloom
frozen olive
#

you know normally they would be in luck

#

cause i am absolutely the kinda person to do that shit, i have more than enough hubris to spare

#

unfortunately, blue wife

unreal bloom
#

hilariously their ideal god would probably be Miquella

#

Based on what little information we have on the Finger & Beast Crew, they're focused entirely on self-preservation, power, and control, and want an eternal and all-encompassing Order

#

Ironically, Miquella, despite wanting to escape the whole dynamic and create a kind world, actually became the epitome of everything the old order wanted

frozen olive
#

it is a sort of delicious irony

#

made ||killing him and Radahn|| feel quite good

unreal bloom
#

Also some fun translation stuff is that Miquella actually seems to have been a divine mirror of Ranni, in that he also rejected the Fingers and the entire dynamic there, and wanted to create a kind world that rejected everything Metyr set in motion - it's just his methods that diverged

frozen olive
#

yeaaaaah

#

mfw he tried to break the cycle of destruction but ended up being a victim and perpetrator anyway

unreal bloom
#

Some of the most interesting mistranslations is that the Law of Causality refers to karma

frozen olive
#

bro did not comprehend that when people talked about Marikas tainted bloodline they did not mean it literally but in fact metaphorically

#

which is why him discarding his flesh didn't help because it was a deeper set effect of what she had done than simply skin deep

obtuse halo
#

He refers to a thousand year voyage just like Ranni does, even

#

And seeks to escape his flesh

unreal bloom
#

Karma

#

For Miquella, in the original Japanese, the original sin he wanted to ditch was Karma, the Law of Causality set in motion by Metyr and Marika

obtuse halo
#

Oh yeah the original sin thing is definitely some goofy translation

#

Very funny with Messmer’s snakeism though

unreal bloom
# 
Miquella headed towards the tower concealed in the Shadow,
forsaking everything: his golden body, his power and his fate.
To become a new god who would embrace everything,
beyond the causality that has persisted since the beginning.
frozen olive
#

Miquella tries to escape the taint of Marikas curse by discarding his flesh but it doesn't work that way and things do not go well for him

#

it's also eternally funny to me that Miq said "fuck Marika she a bitch" and then went to the place where Marika became a god to become a god himself

unreal bloom
#

"To every living soul and every living being,
herein comes the Age of Paradise.
The Law of Kindness, a thousand year voyage.
From now on, only love shall come for you.
Nothing and no one will be condemned or rejected."
this is a more accurate translation of his cut speech

#

A rejection of all karma

#

Everyone is welcome, everyone is loved

#

An order without sin

frozen olive
#

we shall welcome the LOATHSOME DUNG EATER with open arms

#

surely this will have no negative consequences whatsoever

unreal bloom
#

Unironically it wouldn't

#

with the small caveat that no one is allowed to be not charmed

frozen olive
#

he'd be too brainwashed to torture people to death

#

and ruin their souls forever

unreal bloom
#

Gee I wonder if Miquella's ever done that to someone

frozen olive
#

what, torture someone to death?

unreal bloom
#

brainwash them to keep them from obsessively murdering people

frozen olive
#

surely not

#

that doesn't sound like him at all

#

also since you seem to know so much about the japanese translations for stuff

#

does the japanese consort armor also imply that ||Miq sent Malenia after Radahn||

unreal bloom
#

pretty sure yeh

#

but lemme check

#

I'll have to google translate that one, it hasn't been translated by a speaker yet

frozen olive
#

ic ic

unreal bloom
#

I can't find the Japanese text offhand... 😦

frozen olive
#

fair enough

unreal bloom
#

WAIT I got it

#

google translate time

frozen olive
#

the english version does very much imply that ||Miq sent Malenia after Radahn||(i am willing to die on this hill) so even if it was inadvertent, someone at least got tortured for an extended period leading to their death by him

unreal bloom
#

This google translate is jank but it looks the same aside from the typical translation thing where Lord/Consort is a translation of King/Monarch

frozen olive
#

mhm

unreal bloom
#

||Young Radahn's Golden Corselet. A lion's equipment, wearing the hero's red. Miquella's Blade, Malenia, at the time when corruption bloomed in Aeonia, she whispered in Radahn's ear: "Miquella is waiting, oh promised king."||

#

Cleaned up a bit

frozen olive
#

yeah that seems to imply the same thing

unreal bloom
#

The title of Elden Lord is a funny mistranslation too, maybe a better translation though

#

Every incidence of Lord is actually just gender-neutral King in the original Japanese

frozen olive
#

makes sense

unreal bloom
#

Rykard, King of Blasphemy
King of the Frenzied Flame (and your crown is.... flames!)
||Radahn, Miquella's King||
Godfrey, the First King of Old
The Night King
I AM THE KING OF ALL THAT IS GOLDEN
etc

frozen olive
#

First King of Old goes kinda fucking hard ngl

unreal bloom
#

Oh there is one other mistranslation

#

But it’s more a vibe mistranslation

#

The description of Miquella’s remembrance implies that Miquella ||genuinely, kindly, and innocently asked Radahn to please be his king.||

#

Which does somewhat support the idea that ||Radahn wasn’t brainwashed|| which is also stated by some official materials

#

The term used in the original description, 純真 (junshin), can be translated as “pure”, “innocent”, “naive”, and “unspoilt”, an adjective that underscores how his request was not only sincere but also derived from a purity and naivety that only a child could possess. A child whose intentions were good in principle, as evidenced by the original description of his Great Rune

#

While the English dubbing makes him say that he wishes to make the world “a gentler place,” his Japanese subtitles make him state he wants “to make the world kind”, as if the world has never been kind since the beginning.
Miquella wants to make a world that shall be kind to him, to his sister, and to anyone else, living outside the pain and sins inside life itself.

#

Also, the mysterious vow mentioned at the end is clarified in the original japanese

#

||”Lord brother…
I will not fail, I will become a god. So, if we keep our promise, Please, become my king.||
I want to make the world kind…”

frozen olive
#

i still maintain that that man was brainwashed

proven cloak
#

never thought about the irl development of the mandate of heaven as a possible direct inspiration

#

(instead of just the concept)

proven cloak
#

IE the fact that people keep seeking vengeance for past slights in an unending chain

#

but it does lose the causality connection in english, unfortunately

#

also means a lot of interpretations focusing on a specific hypothetical sin Marika must have done

proven cloak
#

so it more directly makes them mirror each other

#

I've wondered before if the "Night King" stuff was another GRRM reference from the devs

#

like the Grafted Greatsword

#

think zullie had a video on how the Tibia Mariner's are called "Night King's ___" in the code

#

so some sort of cold and undeath related 'Night King'... I could see it.

proven cloak
#

this is nearly identical to the cut 'Age of Abundance' ending's message lmao

#

"Let all things flourish, whether graceful or malign."

frail sky
frozen olive
#

yeah

#

people are weird about cut content sometimes

old brook
#

I'm still kind of foggy on how he even manages Godhood, seems like Marika had to physically pull it from the last one or something

unreal bloom
old brook
#

Strange that it follows the rule as The Frenzy

#

Divest yourself of everything.

#

(Advanced form)

unreal bloom
#

Nah it doesn’t follow that rule Miquella just a freak

#

Well maybe it follows that rule idk

#

But it’s framed as though he didn’t need to do it at all

#

Ymir calls it a tragedy

#

He says Miquella abandoned everything not because he had to but because he couldn’t handle his heritage and the destiny he was born into

#

Also Marika’s ascension appears to be based in using the gift of the Finger Maidens - namely, a little thing called the Strength of Runes

old brook
#

Also does still seem to have most of the bits given up

unreal bloom
#

My hypothesis is that we see her do in her ascension is tear runes from corpses and then level up one million times at the gate of divinity

#

Because her path to ascension was guided by the Fingers, and the Finger Maidens and Melina are the only known folks who know how to work the strength of runes

old brook
#

Finger Maidens also still a big ??? but Miyazaki cannot resist A Weird Crone

unreal bloom
#

Naw I mean the dead ones we find around

#

Not the finger readers

#

The Finger Maidens are, according to Varre, supposed to give their assigned Tarnished the strength of runes

#

It’a why being maidenless is viewed as such a barrier to progress

#

The Finger Maidens are servants of the Two Fingers who use their magic

#

Presumably, the strength of runes is also Finger Magic

#

And thus Marika would’ve been given access to it

#

In the era before the Erdtree, those closest to the source of runes, the Crucible, would’ve been the ones bursting with runes, and that happened to be the Hornsent… so she got into their tower and started ripping them to pieces

#

And then she took those runes to the gate of divinity and used their power to ascend to godhood

#

Pictured: Marika leveling to 999

#

The thing about runes is that they’re the energy of life itself, fragments of the Elden Ring, so she basically just ate their souls to ascend to godhood

proven cloak
#

he wants to make himself divested from the problems of the world, literally above it, so that he can embrace everything

#

(because Marika remained human enough to do things like say "fuck those Hornsent")

proven cloak
#

because if Marika did meld with the Ring at the gate versus 'just' becoming a god and forging her own rune, means different things

signal harness
real shadow
signal harness
#

huh interesting

proven cloak
#

I'm on camp Rot God

#

(for the origin of Verdigris)

#

the eight sided pattern shows up a few other times, like the shape of the divine towers or Ruah's 8-sided architecture in general

#

I think the Fell God's eye is from the Ruah symbols, rather than the source of it

#

and its not like Ruah lacks in rot connections either, with the church of the bud + the mushroom cap talking about how in 'an age long past great lords served the Scarlet Rot' or whatever

#

its also possible Florissax killed the big dragon

old brook
#

I always wonder how the Age of Compassion is meant to solve Rot God and stuff like that

proven cloak
#

when she was a big(?) dragon herself

proven cloak
#

Remove Shadow from Gold / Refine the chaotic elements of the Crucible -> the Erdtree stops producing sap, crucible elements still crop up even more violently now (compare the average Omen to the average Hornsent.)

Crack down on the Merchants for possible ties to frenzy / Burn Midra's Manse to the ground -> Frenzy takes root even stronger in those locations.

Force St. Trina into a hole -> Her once gentle sleep steeps and festers into something death-like and poisoned.

#

its one of the most common themes in the game

#

Seal Rot beneath Liurnia?

#

now theres an entire lake of Rot. And the lakes themselves are sinking into it.

#

so I think it might work, for a while - in the same way Marika removing Destined Death worked for a while.

#

Theres even a read that Malenia's first bloom caused so much devastation because Miquella's needle was 'holding back' the Rot, like a dam about to burst.

#

Her second bloom doesn't fuck up nearly so much of the Terrain

#

even Marika with the Elden Ring + all the power of godhood was unable to snuff out the Flame of Ruin.

#

Is the concept of Rot any different? And should it be sealed away and removed at all, if Rot is just an expression of 'the cycle of death and rebirth'?

fleet bronze
#

I think Rot is something alien, at some basic level. It's not bad, or even entirely inimical, but to accept rot is to accept the destruction of normal human life as it is

dusty kraken
proven cloak
#

and imo its notable that Miquella and Malenia's runes, both of them connected to rot and budding and all the times that stuff crops up

#

is the same shape as the Rune of the Unborn, which is literally the thing that 'perfects rebirth'

#

so Scarlet Rot might be a sort of alien force, but I think at its core its a natural process

#

might just be a splinter of the process of rebirth left to seep and turn hostile, like Trina's nectar ended up becoming deadly to consume

#

idk what you'd do about it in setting. Its like a super illness that disables anyone it touches, its awful. But thematically, fighting to eradicate it by the roots probably wouldn't work to 'solve the problem'.

#

like how the Golden Order never eradicated Deathroot despite their best efforts

gray leaf
#

decay is, ultimately, an extant form of life. It's an answer to the question "what happens to the dead" (they become new life) but it's life at least as much as it is death.

proven cloak
#

and with the dlc

#

its had fruitful relationships with cultures before

#

Verdigris and... pickling. Probably most Alcohol in setting too.

#

Rot as a concept can be super helpful

#

not sure how seperable it is from 'Scarlet Rot' though

fleet bronze
#

I mean it does seem that there's a certain amount of it both needing to exist, being useful in moderation, and dangerous and awful in excess

#

Seeking to perfect the world leading to disaster is a primary theme in Elden Ring

#

And it's part of why Ranni in her ending resolves to essentially take the mantle of godhood outside of the world so people stop trying

#

Implicitly in that though is that the world will continue to suffer and struggle

#

It just won't be as cosmologically disastrous and traumatic

#

The other thing with Rot is that's an awful, gross, painful, and lethal disease for humans and the natural world that is inhabitable to them

#

But it has its own ecosystem at the same time

#

Caelid is a nightmare wasteland for us, filled with dead, but at the same time it's churning with life and growing all the time to the benefit of its own inhabitants

#

The Kindred even have intelligence of their own, it's just not human intelligence

covert schooner
#

Okay so

#

I have a weird note for this chat

#

Do yall feel like the convergence mod, and others in its vein, miss the design philosophy of from soft player options?

kind garden
#

ye

#

that's why I've never been interested in them

covert schooner
#

Stuff like this

#

https://youtu.be/h2pv826lr2I?si=BnR0Mk3o4YWvbdCJ

YouTube
Snuggly the Crow
The Convergence Mod Alpha 2.1 Update - All Weapons Showcase [Elden ...

Subscribe for more https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjsQqTWTBNS9Ys_1ur9GS1A?sub_confirmation=1

This is a showcase of all the new unique weapons that are available in the brand new Convergence mod 2.1 Update for Elden Ring. The Convergence mod is a large scale overhaul that adds a ton of new weapons and content to Elden Ring. These weapons all h...

▶ Play video
#

Always gets me cause these weapons are always like

#

“Okay and when you do a charged attack you shoot out a big laser beam, and the skill can be charged, and it has 2 different follow ups that are different between charged and uncharged”

#

And I’m like

#

I feel as though we’ve crossed over into something else

kind garden
#

I mean, I liked Bloodborne, to be clear

#

where one weapon is almost your entire moveset so they're deliberately enriched and able to do many things

#

but the majority of the souls games are pretty deliberate in that you have limited numbers of options tied to each armament and they have holes in those options on purpose

covert schooner
#

Oh yeah absolutely but it’s also part of why I consider bloodborne not part of the direct souls lineage that ER is

#

Also it’s just…

#

Like

#

It’s almost a power level thing?

#

In the sense that a single weapon having like 30 unique moves feels like

#

Outside the level that souls weapons operate on

kind garden
#

I understand the attraction to having weapon skills or movesets that do Literally Everything, but the reason you want that as a player is exactly why it wasn't given to you

#

it solves too many problems with just one build choice

covert schooner
#

Souls weapons, I feel like, usually have a bunch of generic attacks, one really cool thing they can do, and the craziest ones also have a minor gimmick like charged attacks shooting a projectile or something

#

But also yes that

kind garden
#

I also have a Take on how these mods kinda try to offer weirdly too much parity to different build branches

#

I kinda hate it?

#

Different stat combinations / build specializations are given different tools on purpose in a major way

proven cloak
#

sometimes they add too many levels for spells yeah

kind garden
#

like, I do have an issue with how Elden Ring offers a lot of main stats you can fuck with but there's a few combinations it doesn't go out of its way to support, because imo that's kinda design negative space and I would've been psyched to see INT/ARC, for example, get stuff beyond what it got

proven cloak
#

like adding one of each 'tier' for holy and fire and lightning

#

and so you just end up with spells that are 90% the same but for damage type

#

though theres also a lot of interesting designed spells in these mods

kind garden
#

tiering spells is also wack because Dark Souls designs against that pretty hard and the ones that exist for INT are there for a reason

proven cloak
#

rip Int/Arc

#

I really did think it was gonna get stuff in the dlc

kind garden
#

which is that different levels of INT investment are textured really distinctly

#

but, for example, FAI investments go towards whole sets of completely different things

#

15 FAI is enough to do like all the beast miracles I think?

covert schooner
#

We NEED lighting sorcery NOW

proven cloak
#

a catalyst for every spell type, for every stat

kind garden
#

and I mean it does bother me that INT didn't get textured like FAI did in Elden Ring

#

but again

#

this is just a minor ball drop

proven cloak
#

you will cast the Dexcantations

kind garden
#

it's funny because Elden Ring actually did delve into a minor stat niche incest moment with how Ashes of War occasionally infringe on the design-space that spells hold

#

and I got feelings about it

covert schooner
#

Oh mood

#

But it’s also fine because like

#

While the texturing is good

#

It does suck that like

languid tiger
covert schooner
#

Magic builds are the only guys who get to do cool anime shit

#

In some stuff

proven cloak
#

even INT in ER at least has the graviy stuff now

languid tiger
#

its heavies are a really fucking good weapon art

#

and then it has two more weapon arts...

#

that each have different, powerful aoe options

#

genuinely just ridiculous

#

on what's already the best weapon class moveset in the game

#

oh jesus the staff is also egregious

#

fucking charged and uncharged WA that can both be followed up with a heavy or another WA

covert schooner
#

Yeah

languid tiger
#

and the second WA can be followed up with a heavy too

covert schooner
#

My main thing here is mods that give you like

#

5 weapon arts

#

And then the community is always like “this mod is the greatest thing, basically Elden ring 2” and I’m over here like

#

Not gonna do the gif that I wanted to do preceding this part because of the flashing

proven cloak
#

I think they're usually fun

#

but mess up the je ne sais quoi aka having a full time professional studio doing design

covert schooner
#

I do not think my complaint here is reasonably justified by “they aren’t a full design team”

kind garden
#

Elden Ring working as a game is kind of predicated on you needing to assemble a bunch of different tools and make your build work for you

proven cloak
#

Convergence's map overhauls are both

  • really cool
    and
  • feel incredibly jank to explore
#

nah mines tangential to the player build thing

#

I dont have any more to say on that, pretty much agreed

languid tiger
#

i skipped the katana because katana

#

but there's also a great katana

proven cloak
#

new options just get people excited

languid tiger
#

so now i'm going back

#

to see if the katana is as fucked as the LGS and twinblade staff

#

the katana is also fucked, as expected

covert schooner
#

Yknow

#

I do actually think that a bloodborne “unique weapon” system but instead of trick weapons we get like

#

Turbofucked boss weapons

#

Would be cool

#

As an actual fromsoft thing

#

The LGS in the DLC made me think that fromsoft wants to do some character action shit honestly

frail sky
covert schooner
#

LMAO

old brook
#

Modded Skyrim Spells lookin

covert schooner
#

Here

#

Because I felt crazy

median rock
#

it's just straight up a wildly different idea of what a build looks like

#

ER doesn't have buffs more granular that like. the counter talisman or maybe the multihit/charged talismans

#

so 95% of the time an optimized build is just running whatever buffs or talismans they want to use rather than something that's a specific synergy with their weapon of choice and only their weapon of choice

#

I think it's just a different style, tbh. if you like the more mmo style of item upgrades thats fine but its definitely not what FS is good at doing, or something that I think works well in ER

unreal bloom
#

More genuinely: there already is a cure for the scarlet rot it just sucks and doesn’t work for Malenia

#

The Scarlet Rot simply can’t be dealt with by the Erdtree and the Golden Order because golden order fundamentalism doesn’t allow for the solutions required

#

The flame of the fell god can burn away the rot for instance

#

And the Hornsent/Ancestral Followers devised cures for it

#

Malenia’s Scarlet Rot, like Godwyn’s deathroot, is more a problem because of the Golden Order

#

Her butterflies are part of her and spread the rot far and wide, itty-bitty immortal vectors for the plague

frozen olive
#

Flame of the Fell God vs. Scarlet Rot

#

greatest pvp of the lands between

unreal bloom
#

Giantsflame always wins because Scarlet Rot can never recover from it

#

The main quality of Giantsflame is that it never goes out

frozen olive
#

good stuff tbh

#

we could make like, ever lasting torches from it

#

the strongest pizza oven of history

#

stuff like that

unreal bloom
frozen olive
#

peak fiction

unreal bloom
#

The Giant’s Forge of Mama Mia Pizza Pasta

frozen olive
#

goated behaviour from the Giants

unreal bloom
#

The Scarlet Rot can be cured by giantsflame for the same reason it can burn the Erdtree

#

The Scarlet Rot is a malformed divinity of the Crucible’s bud

#

The Erdtree, too, is a Crucible offshoot

frozen olive
#

so you're saying we should burn it all with Giantsflame

unreal bloom
#

May pizza pasta take the world

frozen olive
#

which unlike the spooky madness fire will not just fuck everything

unreal bloom
#

Well it is sentient unquenchable fire inhabited by an evil god that hypnotizes those who look into it

#

So it probably isn’t great

frozen olive
#

nah i'm sure the Fell God is goated with the sauce

#

truly no god named "The Fell God" could be evil

unreal bloom
#

Important lore consideration is that with the awareness that unquenchable fires and unkillable beings exist in this setting, Fire Punch is probably happening somewhere in the lands between

proven cloak
unreal bloom
#

I do like that the Fell God - assuming it was an Empyrean who ascended, and while it's debatable, there's very strong evidence for it - did Marika's bit better than she did, and without having to break the Elden Ring to do it, and achieved the status of an immortal god that even she couldn't kill

#

but also it's just flatly stated to be evil
which is very funny, there are extremely few things in the game that are stated to be objectively evil but the Fell God is one of them

#

like most of the time it's left up to the player's interpretation like "hey, maybe Those Who Live In Death are actually cool and hype and rad" even though literally everything to do with Those Who Live In Death screams "THIS IS NOT COOL AND HYPE AND RAD"
but then with the Fell God the game literally just states "yeah no that fucker's evil, man"

#

If the Fell God was a former Empyrean, it also outdid Miquella at his own game, because it automatically mind-controls anyone who observes it for long enough, even if they're entirely there for the dedicated purpose of not being mind-controlled by it and keeping anyone else from observing it

proven cloak
#

Tbf I dont think Marika wanted to be unkillable by the end

#

seems like her biggest issue, and what caused The Shattering

#

it was always interesting how the Fire Giants tending of the Forge is referred to as a curse

#

not the only time duty is made out to be a shackle in the narrative, but ironic given what happened to Marika

unreal bloom
#

And also implies that she may have not wanted Melina to burn

#

My read on the situation is that Marika was powerless, crucified, imprisoned, broken
and then when Melina leaves you for a while she goes to Marika and is like "hey mom can I get a reminder on what you wanted me to do again"
and then Marika just gives her the Minor Erdtree incantation, which is Marika's most secret and most kind magic, with its only functionality being to heal those she loves
when Melina next speaks to you about her mother, she says "I shall see to the kindling. I have set my heart upon the world that I would have. Regardless of my mother's designs."

unreal bloom
#

oh, random fun detail

#

Melina's ashen model is very cool-looking, but there's something funny I noticed

#

There's only one other character in the game with eyes that match her faded eye here

#

post-ascension Miquella

6bbef080a41384fd67963c455844958739101b69.png
obtuse halo
#

oh, that's fascinating

unreal bloom
#

idk what to make of it but I suppose it's yet another bit of evidence that she's an Empyrean, and presumably the GEQ

#

unrelated, extremely silly detail: Miquella pre-ascension, despite being a kiddo, was roughly the same height as the Tarnished and most other normal-sized humans

#

due to the demigods being taller than humans, and miquella being shorter than the other demigods due to being eternally a child, he is of perfectly normal height

#

oh, one idea re: Melina and Miquella's eyes both being faded: Miquella abandoned his grace, and Melina's Empyrean eye was sealed, presumably by Marika or Maliketh. The other time this happened, it was with Messmer, where Marika sealed his Empyrean eye with grace (though she also yoinked the whole eye that time so 🤷) and Ranni, who sealed her own Empyrean eye by severing her spirit from her ashes/body entirely
Miquella is stated to have abandoned his grace, which is also shown by his child model having brilliantly golden eyes. Similarly, Melina in the frenzied flame ending has either abandoned grace or grace itself has weakened with the death of the erdtree, allowing her empyrean eye to reopen so she can kick your ass with the powers of a god, but causing her graced eye to fade like Miquella's. Alternatively, grace just faded from it and the unsealing of destined death let her open her sick-ass murder eye and be like "CLOCK'S TICKING, BARBECUE-HEAD"

#

It's also possible that simply becoming a rival god to Marika strips you of grace

gray leaf
#

I'm not sure which Empyreans had one Empyrean eye, and which had both eyes special, unless that's the scar- versus soreseal at issue. I need to double-check but I think Messmer was missing both eyes? He only removed one, but I'm not sure what the other looked like, and I'm half-convinced he's blind and uses his snakes to see for him.

unreal bloom
gray leaf
#

Isn't Malenia missing both eyes, though?

unreal bloom
#

Yeah but that's 'cause she's the goddess of rot

#

her eyes rotted out

#

that may as well be her empyrean eye, and if not it's likely she removed it herself or had it yanked by Marika otherwise

gray leaf
#

I guess. I just thought that for some reason, some of them had two.

frail sky
#

It always looked more like she’d gone blind in that eye or something to me

IMG_6893.webp
unreal bloom
#

Child Miquella, oddly enough, seems to have two identical freakazoid eyes

#

but child miquella's eyes aren't visible without hacking

#

(which is extra odd because he's the one who is noted specifically by Ansbach as having a freaky Empyrean eye)

proven cloak
#

and instead submits to her brothers vision

#

so I see that as why shes missing both, bit of visual symbolism

#

and the literal 'they rotted out' reason ofc

proven cloak
#

Miquella counted enough given Trina + his design even as an adult

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but Messmer? hmm

languid tiger
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isn't it also just empyreans who can become gods?

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or am i misremembering that

proven cloak
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🤷

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depends on what you mean by god

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Empyreans can become gods and usher in a new age, idk if they're the only people who can

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probably though

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if by god you mean "Lord and God combo + can wield the entire Elden Ring"

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the spirit worshipping faiths, Serpent and Formless Mother cults, maybe Fell God, and whatever the Twinbird was show the net can be pretty wide

old brook
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Marika wasn't born of a god before she sauntered up and did it herself, the rules are foggy

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You seem to need something in your corner though, be it Frenzyflame or The Moon or The Fingers

proven cloak
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like all those ancestor statues in the Lands of Shadow, Taylew, and arguably beasts like Serosh are all gods to the hornsent

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but they aren't gods like Marika

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especially when they each touch on different parts of Empyreanhood

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like

old brook
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and purposeful holes in history

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Miq and Malenia have no mentioned shadows

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did they exist? maybe

old brook
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Their shadows are.. their.. curses. Of course. /this is nothing

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The lore being mysterious and confusing is even more fun when you consider ||Metyr just kind of freewheeling without guidance||

proven cloak
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yeah, were ||Empyreans part of the 'plan'? Or was it the fingers trying to get in contact with the GW / find a surrogate mother-figure?||

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are they born, and the Fingers just recognize them, or do the Fingers dictate whos an Empyrean?

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Is there any relevance to Metyr herself being a mother who was followed by a shadow(y) Beast, when the fingers are the ones who established this whole system?

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or are the Nox, listed as MarikaLineage in the files, more relevant? Wolves are the shadows of Empyreans, and also closely related to the Carians, who descend from the Nox.

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🤷