Elden Ring (DLC hype room)

[frozen olive]

also prolly cause Bayle likely carved it out himself

[unreal bloom]

||the greater will being a watchmaker god that is all life in the entire universe makes the fact that it got mad at the eternal city extra funny||

||"The cosmos itself is angry at you"||

[vivid spire]

The greater will seems both petulantly horrifying and alien

[unreal bloom]

||What's funny about it is that it has no interest in whatever's going down in the lands between except the Eternal City and maybe Radahn, who fucked up the Greater Will's primeval current and got lauded by the Erdtree for it, despite the Erdtree thinking it was dedicated to the Greater WIll||

||"This one's for you, Greater Will!"||
||the greater will: "i never asked for this"||

||except it probably isn't even sentient, or if it is it's the most alien thing that can possibly count as sentience||

[real shadow]

||I like the idea that the Greater Will is a collapsed star turned black hole. It makes the unknowable alien aspect of it more horrifying--that this giant cosmic sucking hole can think, however incomprehensible that is, and has ulterior motives and can plan and sends agents to the Lands Between.||

[light bridge]

It also makes sense now that ||they built their own stars and gods, they rejected everything||

[real shadow]

||That or the GW used to be a star or cosmic body but then collapsed in on itself and that's why it seemingly "abandoned" people. Because it's gone, replaced with a black hole.||

[gray leaf]

||Abandonment and death being conflated and/or confused... it... wouldn't be the first time, I don't think.||

[vivid spire]

Lmao my friend in response to sending her the boss beaten screen

GOD SLAIN

“Whoops?”

[vivid spire]

Holy shit

||https://youtu.be/3veocwAhu9E?si=UX9Kgw-7k5OgZKcb||

Shirakko bringing out the mimic tear my god

[proven cloak]

eyyyy, like mother like son!

Godfrey also has cut dialogue about the Elden Ring commanding the stars - I think its like. probably something it can do? Thematically?

like - the stars are alive, and the Elden Ring seems to affect the flow of life and death ||(in a radius? For the lands between?)||

so

I could see it

its hard being a single mother in a post-shattering economy ok I forgive him

good find on this btw, I’m currently more of a “crucible as indefinite energy source” type but I’ll keep this in mind. I’ve been free-balling on whats going with the Crucible post-dlc.

In my playthroughs I didnt find any evidence the Hornsent had a specific Big Ass Tree (before Marika) - or at least enough to convince me it was part of their religious practices

Devonia, who went looking for the Crucibles source, is in the weird ass position of standing in Ruah and staring very intently at Enir-Illm

which means…. Something, probably

What the fuck did they mean Divine Bird Feathers as a technique resembles the Crucible - Just the color? The shape? The motion?

Does the Sun fit into it at all? If there was a proto-tree, why here - and does it have any relation to the Finger Ruins?

¯_(ツ)_/¯

I was thinking about the twinbird, spiritgraves, and how death “washes up” in the Land of Shadow the other day as potentially being Crucible related

for some reason, the force associated with mutation and vital life is strong in this location - and theres a heavy pull for the dead

Wondering if these dont spring from the same reason

a source for life and death together

[outer flint]

beat ||midra||, did some cleanup, and started ng+

[unreal bloom]

Siluria’s Tree is made to look like the Crucible, it was a tree

Also ||Scadutree spells ||are Crucible incantations

They use the same icon as aspect of the crucible spells

[unreal bloom]

The tree is in the same place as the erdtree in the lands between

The Lands of Shadow weren’t originally sectioned off, they were the heart of the Lands Between

||Marika enchanted them using the divine towers, veiling them and the scadutree from connection to the outside world||

[hybrid perch]

I’ve only cheesed nights cavalry and nial so far, oh and got help with aster bc I learned that I was horribly underlevled later on. Was this your first time trying to cheese him?

[outer flint]

oops

i forgot to do astel 2 and the duo night's cavalry

womp

[hybrid perch]

Duos night cavalry was tougher than I thought it would be

[outer flint]

:O

i look forward to em

i have been suggested swift spear as a dex weapon

[hybrid perch]

Those are the ones in consecrated snowfields right?

[outer flint]

ye

[proven cloak]

woke up to my friend doing Ymir's quest:

chat is this real?

[light bridge]

Yes

[proven cloak]

oh? The Thorn Sorcs?
I thought they were sigilless

[light bridge]

TBH, while perhaps more of the iffier side, fromsoft usually has some representation in their games

[proven cloak]

I could see a proto-Erdtree Tree, I'm not opposed to it as a theory

[light bridge]

Thorns aren't

[proven cloak]

it just needs a little more assumptions than I'm confortable with making rn, I'm gotta get like
a bunch of theories and figure out which one makes the least assumptions

the Scadutree is connected to the Crucible - the Golden Hippos always drop Scadu-fragments

but so is the Erdtree, and my reading of the Scadutree is that its a twin to the Erdtree, born at the same time

but they could have been born by splitting something - but then you'd expect Crucible Knight Devonia to be found closer to shadowkeep, or Ruah (with all its Crucible stuff) to be built around this ancient tree

It seems like the Crucible Knights might not have even been that aware of the Shadowlands, given that Devonia quested alone from Leyndell.

This makes 100% sense if you assume the Crucible was only ever the proto-Erdtree, the Erdtree as a baby - but its very clear from the Hornsent's relationship with Marika's hometown that its veneration is older than her godhood.

Not to mention the 'oldest spell (of the Erdtree' is Elden Stars - and the Elden Ring is clearly connected now to the Erdtree, and to gold - Our runes left over turn to plants too, so a giant golden plant could've sprouted from its initial impact-

idk

I'm still operating under the Golden Comet(s) as the origin of the Crucible - but Metyr as the oldest shooting star definitely makes that weird!

and despite having the plant connections, its also spoken of like water

it 'courses', it 'seethes'. It has currents and vortexes - Its not nessasarily a perfect spiral

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[atomic plinth]

This posing is fucking hilarious lmao

Me and the besties on our way to beat the fuck out of some tarnished asshole

[outer flint]

godskin apostle is me when i don't wanna be in the photo

bro looks super stiff

[hybrid perch]

Who Tf is Ymir?

Is that a dlc character?

[outer flint]

ye

[lilac condor]

I came across some IRL alchemy drawings of instruction for putting things into crucibles (i think) by a guy named Johann Daniel Mylius

I think the Crucible in Elden Ring could be more of a concept - the process of trying to make a god using the jarring process - than a single object

which would make the Crucible era the era when people were trying to make gods

[atomic marsh]

I think the Crucible was a physical thing though

used to grow the Erdtree

[lilac condor]

The game tends to be visually explicit though. We don't see a single, massive Crucible. We see factories where people are forcibly put into a bunch of small crucibles and melted together, and we're told Marika is either an escapee or a product of this process

[atomic marsh]

Also no, the Crucible is basically just "The primordial form of Order"

In Elden Ring's "growth of civilization metaphor" it's the tribal kingdoms before the rise of nation-states as represented by Marika's Order and the Erdtree

It doesn't have anything to do with godhood

[proven cloak]

I think the Divine Gate probably uses it to make someone a god

the whole thing is a "normalized Crucible current", and its holy energy is related to evolution and spiritual attunement

[light bridge]

Jumping from tribal (which itself it's a meh classification) to nation states is a bit exaggerated

[proven cloak]

I think it refers to the underlying commonality of life, and metaphorically towards a worldview where people aren't considered distinct from animals or the natural world

Life is blended together because its all 'about equal' - strength is the only thing that matters

[proven cloak]

hes a wizardpilled ||Ex-Carian Glinstone Sorcerer|| whos ||got a more than normal fixation on Fingers||

"Primordial form of the Erdtree" is really where it gets vague

[light bridge]

I meant more the terminology used

[proven cloak]

it could be

• a literal tree, or plant like structure
• the force that dictated life, death and rebirth (as the Erdtree does now)
• the metaphorical force that dictates life, what guides people
• the primordial thing that sprung from / was powered by the Elden Ring
  or any mixture

[lilac condor]

Esoteric alchemy + From software writing is hell for lore understanding

[hybrid perch]

Seems like an average wizard

[proven cloak]

he's great

some of my favorite voice acting in the dlc

"Oh.., I suppose you expect a lesson of me, do you? I know the feeling.
Those with purpose are nothing if not ravenous. For power. For truth."

[light bridge]

Tribal is a complicated definition in sociology, but it's usually considered to be rather loosely organised and fairly uncentralized, and to go from that to a nation state (and I will say I absolutely don't think Marika's kingdom is a nation state), which is extremely complex and relatively recent

I think it's a bit exaggerated

But yeah, just a terminology thing, nothing else

[proven cloak]

I think this is probably the case

but literalized

in the same way the modern form of Order is the (broken) Golden Order

it could be the Farum Azula elden ring was literally The Crucible, or something

a title for the Elden Ring

or even some intermediate stage between the Elden Beast landing and becoming the Elden Ring

the only part that hitches with that idea is how its always tied to the Erdtree more than the Elden Ring. But both are very close knit.

[light bridge]

My understanding of the crucible is that it was the origin of all earthly life, the great separation that the flame of frenzy seems to hate so much

[proven cloak]

My half-baked theory is that all earthly life originated in the same way as Onyx Lords - as stone brought to life from the vital energy of meteors

the ancient dragons and oldest giants seem to have started stone-y and gotten fleshier over time

if there was a single event that brought the golden crucible energy to the planet, it’d have to be Elden Stars, right?

It could also be the innate life of the lands between- which is also(?) a celestial body(?) and so might possess life leftover as it was formed from cosmic debris

or it could involve the sun - which is definitely connected to Enir-Illm and the Erdtree

and fits with ERs magical fantasy science - the Sun as the source of life-energy as a literalization of its energy powering earths ecosystem

like how fire and water and cure magical rot

or it could be like. Big Root System

[real shadow]

https://fixupx.com/hadrimouto/status/1827378569812512958

[vivid spire]

Yes

[hybrid perch]

then why'd you cheese?

doesn't that take away fun?

[vivid spire]

I died 30 times

The fun was already gone

[unreal bloom]

Not the thorns, the incantations

Land of Shadow and Wrath From Afar

[warm wharf]

Augh it’s been a few days and ||Bayle|| was such a fun fight. Definitely a bit weird, since every run I either died instantly or didn’t take any meaningful damage until I died, and I didn’t have to use a single red flask the time I won, but so absolutely flashy and in my opinion the most genuinely fun ||dragon|| fight I’ve had in a Fromsoft game.

[hybrid perch]

"Curse you ||bayle!||"

[unreal bloom]

"THERE IS LIFE IN ME YET!!!!"

[real shadow]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGs_mv5ShVY

[proper vortex]

i glade that zullie decided to continue making thos interesting vids

[mighty warren]

i just had
the hypest moment while fighting gaius with a friend

so i knew i was gonna get hit by a knock up attack
so i fired off a heal from afar specifically at gaius himself, it goes off above me, i get knocked to literally 1 hp (possibly fuckin 0 depending on how this works) get knocked into the HFR and lived

[atomic plinth]

That is incredibly hype

[outer flint]

i kneel

[unreal bloom]

it's a tree

the Hornsent use weapons modeled on it as well

[obtuse halo]

Merry Crucimas

[unreal bloom]

it was in fact far more of a tree than the erdtree

largely defined by its massive explosion of layered root-like branches at the top, referred to as the torrent of life

[frozen olive]

you can see it in-game a bit

[unreal bloom]

yeh

[frozen olive]

it tree

[grave plinth]

honestly it looks a bit like veins

like the pre-Erdtree people saw this and rationalized it as a tree

[vivid spire]

Gives me scarlet rot vibes from the coloration

[outer flint]

i really need to snag heal from afar, it'd be amazing for co-op and even for single player

and the knight's lightning would be cool

[obtuse halo]

Heal from Afar is a banger

I've never been a big fan of healing spells (though I'll use blessing's boon between fights for cheap recovery in a dungeon) but Heal from Afar is just real good

[outer flint]

yeah i love bestial vitality for heal over time, and I'll do a great heal here and there in a dungeon

but it is so hard to line up a heal when the host is on 20% and still has the boss on em

[unreal bloom]

Erdtree Heal near-singlehandedly got me my first victory against the DLC final boss

I love it so

||https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6BbEg3lfRc || the proof

[proven cloak]

The Erdtree is still an actual tree though - regardless of the seperation of its unwanted parts into the Scadutree.
(I can't buy mirage-tree theory, best I'll do is meet you halfway at Spirit-Tree.)

my first read of Marika's great betrayal, the one I had while going through the dlc the first time, was something about her 'stealing' the crucible power from the Land of Shadow and leaving the Scadutree behind.

so having the Scadutree as a twin-corpse of some prior tree both it and the Erdtree were born of would fit

Its rememberance does shout it's lack of Order - the Elden Ring - as what causes it to be misshapen and weak

was watching my friend going through Ruah, though, and I'm still willing to entertain the connection to the sun

especially on the concept art for the tree set - thats some strong solar (or just star) imagery

which is something already connected to the Erdtree - and definitely to the primal Erdtree / Crucible sigil

[proven cloak]

with this same sort of reddish-gold coloration prominently appearing in Ruah from sunlight!

its also just got so much sunlight - and is one of the places the crucible is strongest

(sorry hes a Great Star user, forgive him)

[outer flint]

is great star good?

[proven cloak]

to add this this one, dlc added bird feathers

[outer flint]

dang that is really sunny

[proven cloak]

very much

[outer flint]

p

o*

[proven cloak]

the bleed damage and good scaling

wew

from the Incantation for divine bird feathers, it's said:

The divine bird warriors, and indeed this technique, are said to bear resemblance to the golden Crucible.

and I've been thinking about the latter part as refering to the wings

which spread out chaotically in an arc

which makes me sense to me than it referencing the actual projectiles

though the resemblance could just be the spells chaotic and uncontrolled aiming, or even just the color

[proven cloak]

not to mention the constant mention of the sun as faded (Seat of the Sun), or Tarnished (rock heart), or afflicted in some way (The eclipse being 'drained' of color - drained of gold, of life)

and if the shapes on Siluria's Tree (and the Inquisitor Greatstaff, if thats modelled on the same thing), are related to the Elden Beast's design

with its root-like tail looking closer to Silurias tree than most, and the central 'flowing' lines in its body fanning out like the barbs. ||(Assuming it doesn't look like this only because of the Erdtree, and its primal crucible energy.)||

and the Farum Elden ring having the Hornsent's spiral icon within it. ||Perhaps, focusing only on the spiral and pruning the chaos is why its a 'normalized' crucible current, as per Spira?||

complete with the central line

[outer flint]

holy moly...

[proven cloak]

so perhaps these wings bear resemblance to the Golden Crucible meaning the Farum Ring's root system? A large arc and a cascade of chaotic growth?

and Crucible was the name of the previous configuration of the Elden Ring?

which might of also been a giant tree - because we do know of at least one giant tree the Elden Ring grew, lmao

personally I've always thought the spell icon for Elden Stars looked a little bit like an impact at the bottom

a side view of a 'torrent' of life?

a stellar impact that spread life from a central point?

this is the 'most ancient' spell of those deriving from the Erdtree - the ones with the Ancient Erdtree / Crucible sigil probably not excepted

and from Bloom being 'discovered' by the Hornsent in Ruah, this would make Elden Stars old

with evidence that it was earlier than the Ruah civilization / Divine towers and the Ancient Dragons, one of the oldest things in setting.

but
not before Metyr

which is where I run into a bit of a loss

and every mending rune ending involves a sun - Goldmask is self-explanatory, Fia's mending rune looks like the eclipse, Dung Eater's armor calls his sun medallion a reference to the ring.
Ranni's ending, about keeping Order hidden / distant, involves a moon that reflects no light - absolutely no sunlight reflected.

Enir-Illm and Farum, two places with heavy connection to the Elden Ring, ||(either a place that had their own in the past or the place Marika (seemingly) did something with her rune or the Elden Beast in the story trailer)||, are also two places with eternal sunlight, no matter the time.

as ||Miquella ascends in the PCR fight, the skybox even changes to a bright blue hole with his same sort of white-golden sunlight filtering through the cloud layer around the arena.||

so theres repeated connection between the Elden Ring, the Crucible / Erdtree, and the Sun

[unreal bloom]

The sun is only really associated with Godwyn

It’s why his symbology is focused on the eclipse, his former castle was called Castle Sol (the seat of the sun), his lightning is a Gwyn-like gold, and why the design of the duskborn rune is a twisted centipede sun

The role of the sun in the world is largely replaced by the Erdtree, with the sun hardly even visible most of the time

[grave plinth]

its also debatable if Godwyn was sun-associated before he died

he's also associated with the Ancient Dragons, who lack solar motifs

Like there's a pre-Erdtree Death Culture that Godwyn's "followers" seem to have rediscovered and its not entirely sure how much of what's going on with them now is a product of that versus a product of living Godwyn's associations

[unreal bloom]

i’m pretty sure he always was, his castle was called Castle Sol and the seat of the sun and is referenced as being long past its glory

[grave plinth]

Is it truly his seat or just where his followers ended up

Godrick, for example, is associated heavily with storms because he's squatting in Stormveil but Godfrey, the ancestor he's nominally attempting to emulate, is not whatsoever

[unreal bloom]

Godfrey is associated with stormveil because he beat up Evil King Bird

[grave plinth]

We don't actually know that

[unreal bloom]

We do!

[grave plinth]

like Limgrave in general is the hinterland of the Lands Between

its the ass end of nowhere populated by fringefolk and penal legions

when Godfrey himself actually shows up, to the extent that he has any elemental associations, its with the earth itself

and even then its only because he's so strong he can cause localized earthquakes by pushing really hard

like, Godfrey's "element" is being able to punch you really hard

[unreal bloom]

Stormveil lore time

Divine beasts are messengers of the heavens, and their rage mirrors the tumult of the skies, of which storms are the pinnacle.

The golden-hued divine birds are known to be cruel, never taking to human companionship. Those who invoked their divinity were few and far between.

Spirit of a fierce hawk that faithfully rendered lifelong service to the old king of Stormveil long ago, when the true storm raged. Its cries embolden its fellows in battle, and the tempestuous winds that encircle it shred through foes.

Ashes of a hawk revered by all others as sovereign back in the days when Stormveil's winds still raged like no other. This ancient monarch is proud however, refusing to answer anyone's summons.

The age of the Erdtree began amongst conflict, when Godfrey was lord of the battlefield. He led the War against the Giants. Faced the Storm Lord, alone. And then, there came a moment. When his last worthy enemy fell. And it was then, as the story is told, that the hue of Lord Godfrey's eyes faded.

Spirit of a Stormveil warhawk, the talons of which have been sliced off so that razor-fine swords could be grafted in their place. With its lord vanquished, and its wings wounded, the hawk perished as it solemnly gazed at its former home. The storm is a warhawk's cradle.

[grave plinth]

Yeah Godfrey beat up the Storm Lord but that's the extent of it

he didn't claim the mantle just like he didn't claim the flame of the giants

[unreal bloom]

the storm lord of stormveil is Evil King Bird

[grave plinth]

There's no real confirmation that the Divine Birds worshipped by the Hornsent and the Stormhawk King are necessarily the same. The Stormhawk King notably lacks crucible horns and the Divine Bird Warriors use neither lightning nor stormcaller skills

[unreal bloom]

The horned warriors use both lightning and stormcaller skills and boost stormveil skills

[grave plinth]

Yeah, the Divine Beast Warriors do

because they're channelling those horned lions

but the divine bird warriors, the ones who actually have bird motifs, interestingly do not

[unreal bloom]

he has crucible horns

[grave plinth]

i scan those as a feather crest

[unreal bloom]

ok so where do you think the divine birds are

[grave plinth]

Where or what?

I think the Divine Birds are busy chilling in the stratosphere being solitary and remote

[old brook]

It could just be something the Hornsent emulate like with the dancers

Conceptual godbird

[grave plinth]

like there's also the Twinbird, which seems to be completely apart from the stormhawk king and the divine birds

[unreal bloom]

Why are the stormveil birds crazy magic storm birds then

[grave plinth]

The current stormveil birds are just like really big, aggressive hawks with their legs cut off

[unreal bloom]

why is their magic boosted by divine beast equipment

[grave plinth]

Because Storms

[old brook]

The twinbird is so curious there was so clearly a death worshipping culture but where the hell are they

[grave plinth]

like the only extant stormhawk who actually displays magic is the spirit Deenh

who is dead

the rest appear to have lost their divine spark

[unreal bloom]

yeah because the erdtree folks killed every divine beast they found

[grave plinth]

the divine beast equipment boost any storm skill and spell

this includes the Zamor Ice Storm

[unreal bloom]

I guess for me it's like

[old brook]

Writing "Zamor are birds" in bold lore notes

[grave plinth]

The beat up lions you find across the Lands Between might be the descendants of the Divine Beasts

[unreal bloom]

Zamor were wandering merchants which is the funniest of all

[grave plinth]

but only two really display anything truly supernatural

[unreal bloom]

because they got no relation

you can tell why they cut that bit

[unreal bloom]

yeah they do ice storm breath

[old brook]

The lions continually have me very "yeah sure" about the Kindness and Goodness of Radahn and any other Erd folks

[grave plinth]

the horns on all the lions have notably been cut off, like most Omens

so its possible that the power really does reside in the horns and the hornsent aren't just making things up to aggrandize their own traits

[unreal bloom]

I do not like this idea because it would mean that everything to do with stormveil is completely disconnected from the divine beasts despite it being the most divine beast area ever, it is literally exploding with storms due specifically to beasts

there are even wolves that descend from on high with magic storm powers

[old brook]

The most baffling enemy ambush in game for sure

[grave plinth]

like i'm using "beast" here in the classical sense that refers to four legged animals

[unreal bloom]

A feather from a hawk that lived as one
with the storms. Material used for crafting items.

These feathers, enveloped in swirling winds, are often used for arrow fletching.

Arrow whittled from animal bones fletched with stormhawk feathers. Craftable item. Flies enshrouded in storm winds, breaking enemy stances and guards with ease.

[old brook]

Storm veil hawks might be like.. what Drakes are to dragons

[grave plinth]

there's like a cruel tranquility to the Divine Bird Warriors. They're not found in stormy areas they're found mostly in the extremely placid Ruins of Rauh

[old brook]

Distant childrens

[grave plinth]

but circling back to Godfrey, none of his items or skills actually comment on him having storm powers

[unreal bloom]

no he just killed the storm king and stole his house

[grave plinth]

the closest we get is Serosh, and we barely know what Serosh is

[unreal bloom]

Serosh was lord of the beasts of Farum Azula

[grave plinth]

See maybe

But he notably is not of the same type of beast that the beastmen are

like if you look closely at the beastmen they don't really resemble any extant animal

[unreal bloom]

beasts are a broad category in elden ring

[grave plinth]

from a distance they look like wolfmen, but if you zoom in they actually look almost lizard like

they're something ancient, pre-human

[unreal bloom]

Maliketh is objectively a high-ranking Farum Azula clergyman who also does not resemble the beastmen

[grave plinth]

Maliketh is Marika's pet dog masquerading as a Beastman

[unreal bloom]

No, he's a Farum Azula clergyman

[grave plinth]

he knows the stone spells but he's the only beast who actually uses them

[unreal bloom]

Short sword given to high ranking clergymen of Farum Azula. Raises potency of bestial incantations. The design celebrates a beast's five fingers, symbolic of the intelligence once granted upon their kind.

[grave plinth]

the actual beastmen themselves exclusively use dragon magic

yeah but Maliketh is not from Farum Azula

[unreal bloom]

yes he is oh my god

you literally fight him there

[grave plinth]

he's a shadowbound beast that the Two Fingers made

[unreal bloom]

There's no indication that they make them

[grave plinth]

he lives in Farum Azula but he's not a native

Iji says as much

[unreal bloom]

but it literally says he is a high-ranking clergyman of farum azula

[grave plinth]

yeah, because he moved there later

but he is not, notably, A Beastman of the type that's dominant there

[unreal bloom]

If we're directly ignoring game text then all lore is meaningless

no discussion can be had

[grave plinth]

Maliketh is a shadowbound beast, quite visibly a wolf, and textually Marika's "brother" in the sense that Blaidd is Ranni's "brother"

only in his guise as Gurranq does he play at being a Farum Azula native, and he notably doesn't use any Dragon Cult incantations unlike the rest of the beast clergymen

[unreal bloom]

I am not entertaining the concept of fake lore that is blatant lies

he is simply both a farum azula clergyman and a shadowbound beast

[grave plinth]

Maliketh was a shadowbound beast given to his Empyrean.
Marika's sole need of her shadow was a vessel to lock away Destined Death.
Even then, she betrayed him.

Maliketh, Queen Marika's loyal half-brother,
bore a blade imbued with Destined Death,
and there was not one demigod who did not fear him.

[unreal bloom]

mistranslated, he's not actually her brother

[grave plinth]

I presume you've spoken with Blaidd? Very well. There is something you should know. The Two Fingers gave Blaidd to Lady Ranni, as a faithful follower. Her very shadow, incapable of treachery. But if Lady Ranni, as an Empyrean, reists being an instrument of the Two Fingers, the shadow will go mad, transforming from a follower into a horrid curse. But such is his destiny. In such matters, Blaidd's own thoughts hold no weight. It pains me so, but he must be neutralised. For Lady Ranni's sake.

[unreal bloom]

Doesn't say they made him

just that they gave him

[grave plinth]

yeah but both he and Maliketh are clearly wolves

and the Beastmen of Farum Azula visibly aren't

[unreal bloom]

the beasty boys

[mighty warren]

Can we kindly mellow out?
Idiom, if it's mistranslated can you please find the original text?

[unreal bloom]

"黒鉄を金で装飾した獣の兜 黒き剣のマリケスの装備 女王マリカの忠実な義弟にして その剣に運命の死を宿したマリケスは すべてのデミゴッドの、怖れであった 怖れを知るからこそ 彼らは英雄だった"

This in English, that bit about their relationship, is: "He is the faithful brother-in-law of Queen Marika, and carries the fate of death in his sword."

[mighty warren]

Thank you

[grave plinth]

Godfrey also seems to have had Serosh before the war with the Ancient Dragons

So that also muddies Serosh's Farum Azula connection

[unreal bloom]

Nah, Serosh was the lord of all beasts, to the point that the symbol of five fingers/claws is directly tied to him as ruler of beasts

[grave plinth]

Hoarah Loux accepts Serosh because Marika needs a champion who can play at being civilized

which implies that somehow, Marika was able to enlist him before she had Godfrey

[mighty warren]

I'm gonna tag in a stance i've had since back in my souls games days

'nine times out of ten the lore is vague enough to have several different takeaways and trying to say yours is the objectively correct one doesnt really do much but make ya come off as an asshole'

fromsoft lore is, and will always be from what i can tell, vague in some places just how they do it, i'm not saying 'don't discuss or speculate' mind you, that's the whole point of vagueness

[vivid spire]

Fuck

I beat ER 7 times

But now I have the urge to do a mage run for Ranni again

[unreal bloom]

hell yeah

[vivid spire]

And actually try using the dark moon spells

[unreal bloom]

🌝

[vivid spire]

;-; the urge is palpable oh god

I have other videogames to play

[unreal bloom]

the moon, scrble

it calls to thee

[unreal bloom]

but but someone is wrong on the internet

[mighty warren]

Are they wrong though? or is it just their own takeaway of the lore?

don't get me wrong there are actually just wrong takeaways from time to time

[unreal bloom]

i was being silly

[mighty warren]

Oh i know that's why i wasn't trying to go too hard with what i said

But yeah iunno, it's why i don't dive in from lore talks much, you can come out with such a drastically different takeaway

[unreal bloom]

godfrey is miquella confirmed

[mighty warren]

the erdtree is a parasite! /joke

[unreal bloom]

marika is the fell god

leda and melina are girlfriends

[mighty warren]

Melina is the gloam-eyed queen /also joke

[unreal bloom]

(ok but she is)

[mighty warren]

Shrug, i don't personally buy it but that goes to my whole prior thing

[unreal bloom]

I was dubious on it until DLC lore dropped

and we learned what was up with people and their wacky eyes

[light bridge]

Personally, I share my viewpoint with Ham. That Maliketh is not a beast men, but directly created and engineered by the fingers/greater will to be the perfect bodyguard. It just moved to farum azula with the rune of death to hide, since it had been stolen before, and since farum azula is very wacky with the whole non linear time thingy, it's probably the most remote place in the lands between

[unreal bloom]

I think he's a proper farum azula guy

he lives in a farum azula house with a farum azula window, and all his clothes and all his items are too, he has a dagger, and it is so farum azula

[grave plinth]

and you're free to think that but that doesn't qualify you to say that i'm making things up when i bring forth textual support and visual analysis

[vivid spire]

https://youtu.be/kNJnFkCoEGM?si=U6cWlj5JosI0VBtk

[unreal bloom]

now this is lore

[proven cloak]

I think he just sneaks it in because the Sun is associated with Dragons, Grace, and things Golden already

the pause menu screen, and vision of grace, are a picture of sunlight-on-water

and all the mending runes are called suns or deliberately evoke them

The base game said the Erdtree in history, when it was vital, was sunlike - the dlc underlined that

though, Godwyn also wears a crucible-symbol on his clothes in game and cutscenes

same as appears on the Tree Armor, the Herb-of-many-Aspects from 1.00 text

[proven cloak]

lore implications?!?

[proven cloak]

I was mostly against this until the dlc happened now Idk what to think

I change my mind everytime someone makes a good enough argument

I guess personally I think the GEQ is ||not relevant to the story ||

[proven cloak]

dlc's horn weapons + divine beast head imply its the horns that allow the spirits / horns to be made manifest, and the horned bairns ability to call forth wraiths seems related

esp the Tanglehorn Bairn in the dlc, which says Tangled horns are a symbol of spirituality, but most young born bearing the oversized horns meet a frightfully early demise.

so something about horns helps call forth spirits

[unreal bloom]

my secret super lore take is that it was intended to be Friede but got switched to Elden Ring instead

[proven cloak]

(which is probably the reason modern omen are fucked up by vengeful spirits)

I noticed she had the same blackflame after going back to ds3 yeah

just kinda forgot about that

[unreal bloom]

I like it being Melina though

I personally think it's her

[proven cloak]

I think at the very least shes got some of her essence or something

[unreal bloom]

in 1.0 her title was the Queen In Black and when melina first comes to you she wears a black cloak with a hood which droops at the sides and occludes her eyes like the godslayers and makes her look like the grim reaper

also she's the only known empyrean that's associated with fire

[proven cloak]

Melina is also mysteriously bodiless

[unreal bloom]

she got burned

rip

[proven cloak]

but still clearly Messmer's sister

and like, we see what happened to Messmer because of his vision of fire

[unreal bloom]

I also just think it makes sense with her dialogue and character

Marika commanded her kids to go out and become gods or lords and have crazy ambitions

Melina says her purpose was long ago lost

'cause she tried for the throne and got wrecked

My personal theory for her is that she switched sides during the crusade, since her sword and seal is patterned after the spiral

[proven cloak]

you think Godwyn died before the crusade, or the Godskin's didn't skin any demigods?

[unreal bloom]

I think the gods they got were the hornsent gods, or the old gods as they're called

idk what godwyn has to do with it

it's possible the godslayers skinned demigods

but they were definitely big into the spiral

[proven cloak]

first dead of the demigods

so for godskins, they either gotta be after his death - or not have targetted Marika's lineage

[hybrid perch]

The only way to save melina is to ||become the lord of frenzied flame right?|| spoiler idk this well known I think but still, spoilers for an ending

[proven cloak]

yes

"oh but you can-" nah even if ||you quell it you still gotta become and aspiring Lord of Frenzied Flame||

[hybrid perch]

So you can save her then get the unalloyed needle and do that whole thing?

[proven cloak]

yup

she'll never come back or appear again though

you did betray her pretty severely

[hybrid perch]

I have 168 hours in this game and I’m like halfway through

[hybrid perch]

She wanted to burn alive?

[old brook]

She really doesn't want you to ||\ascend to the Frenzied Lord||

[hybrid perch]

I mean I chose rani bs stars pretty n all

And magic is cool, although I’m currently running faith/arc

I really want to try out the sword you can use to cast spells

[old brook]

Faith/Arc so fun. Got everything

[hybrid perch]

I find the dragons kinda boring sometimes, I wish the blood flame stuff would be good

[old brook]

Bloodboon works, honestly some some good damage for FP cost just so awkward to use

[hybrid perch]

Which one was that?

[old brook]

AoE splash from Mohg

[hybrid perch]

The one where you yeet blood onto the floor?

[old brook]

Yer

[hybrid perch]

Ah

I love the talons though

[old brook]

Talons are usually too close to what I'm doin with a melee weapon/i get brazen and die with the cast time

[proven cloak]

unironically yes

its her 'purpose'

I'm not sure she'd choose it if there was a ready available way to get in the Erdtree besides it, thats not the Frenzied Flame

but shes accepted it long before you make it to the Capital

[proper vortex]

i have my second Milady and looking for a good ash of war for powerstance in a ice based build

[unreal bloom]

I’m so sad we don’t get ||Miquella or Midra’s|| fashion

There’s nothing even close to either in the game…

I want my gwyndolin set 2.0

[proper vortex]

gwyndolin did have a pretty dress

[unreal bloom]

An icon

[proven cloak]

Morgott but less crusty and sympathetic

[unreal bloom]

Morgott kept the shunning-grounds going even though he was king

What a loser

[proven cloak]

Gwyndolin kept the sham of Anor Londo up, purely to manipulate undead! Their ass runs the god's CIA, cutting off the ears of sinners!

I mean, icon, but

if Morgott gets the smoke for the racism you know I'm not letting gwyndolin off the hook

[unreal bloom]

Maybe don’t sin then 😏

[proven cloak]

fair

I'll just ask Velka for a list of what the gods dont allow

|| ||

[unreal bloom]

Morgott gets the smoke for being so racist against his own people that he condemns them to the same torment he grew up with and also personally buried an entire ethnic group in a nightmare basement under the sewers

And caused them so much misery that they summoned a misery god that can end the entire world

[proven cloak]

.... icon?

[unreal bloom]

GENOCIDE IS NOT ICONIC

it is like

Iconless

no icons allowed

[proven cloak]

he has good reason to be fucked up!

your two options given their childhood are Morgott internalized self hatred and

Mohg
and you HAVE to pick one

[unreal bloom]

Unironically Mohg was more ethical and kindly ||even without counting the DLC revelations||

[proven cloak]

||I actually pick both. Luv' me omens.||

My Mohg defense pre-dlc was never taken well in my friendgroup lmao

[unreal bloom]

He is doing his best

[proven cloak]

he could be worse - he could always be Rykard

[unreal bloom]

I do love the running joke of item descriptions being written either sarcastically or enthusiastically in support of Mohg

[proven cloak]

Gideon calling him a delusional squatter whos bleating like a goat about his dynasty is one of the funniest lines in the game

[unreal bloom]

Blood-slick roses that bloom in festering blood.
Particularly beloved by those who serve the Lord of Blood. Glory to his inevitable reign.

[vivid spire]

Now hear me out

Marika but uh

Well adjusted

[unreal bloom]

Roderika

[vivid spire]

Instead of Elden Ring we get… idk uhh

[unreal bloom]

Spirit Jellyfish

[vivid spire]

Elden Bling: Dress-Up Tarnished

[grave plinth]

Hey at least Mohg has style

[proven cloak]

MORGOTT HAS COOL INCANTATIONS

AND A COOL FIGHTING STYLE

:(

[grave plinth]

Morgott is an unoriginal poser and that’s why all of his hardlight weapons resemble stuff you can find elsewhere in the game

[proven cloak]

cranky because you can't swing the grace-hammer aren't you

[grave plinth]

I can put holy grease on the giant crusher, that’s all i need

[spring marlin]

morgott hate or not the images of mohg in a button up shirt are the best thing to come out of elden ring modding

[proven cloak]

casual fridays in the shunning grounds

[dusty kraken]

It also makes me question why his brother is naked. As that's clearly a CHOICE, not the assumption for all omens

[obtuse halo]

It makes some sense as the Fell Omen, where he wants to be seen more as a kind of wandering badass/hero killer with no history and nothing to his name but blood

It's a little weirder when he walks out openly admitting that yes, he is King Morgott, still wearing rags and only barely not giving you full frontal nudity

[covert schooner]

Makes more sense when you see him as a self-pitying, probably horribly depressed trash man who used to live in the sewer

[spring marlin]

unlike mohg morgott doesn't have the street cred to have his own personal tailor

[obtuse halo]

Morgott's missing out. He could have helped Boc instead of slapping the player around at Stormveil and gotten some sick threads

[old brook]

Morgott's threads are sick not everyone needs to be ostentatious about it

[unreal bloom]

Morgott can’t get new fashion no one knows he’s an omen

He can’t even wear his own crown

His title is “the veiled monarch” and everyone only knows him visually as Margit, That Scary Git That Beat Radahn’s Ass

Presumably he speaks to his subjects only through a door or messengers or hides behind illusions or a disguise to keep people from knowing what he is

Kinda hard to get a tailor who will make omen-fitted clothes without letting everyone in on the secret

[obtuse halo]

Yeah I actually do like the Fell Omen Cloak

I wear it on my "druid" character

the fashion is real

[proven cloak]

my horny ass could never be a public monarch of leyndell

[obtuse halo]

tbh I've never been 100% satisfied with my glove choices for that build

they're fine but I feel like I could do better

I currently run briar set because thorny feels ok here and it's fun to stagger people with rolls

[fleet bronze]

There might also be an element of Morgott internalizing his treatment as an omen and so not seeing himself as worthy/not deserving to wear really nice clothes

[proven cloak]

while his brother is very drippy

in more ways than one

[outer flint]

lmfaoo??

[outer flint]

oh this is amazing

[proven cloak]

thats real btw

its his model under the adornment

[outer flint]

crying

[covert schooner]

For what it’s worth

Take off James Bond’s jacket and he’s just a guy in a button up

[obtuse halo]

I guess I shouldn't post drip without specifying what it is. That's Shining Horned Headband, Fell Omen Robe, Fur Leggings, Traveling Perfumer Gloves/Briar Gauntlets. Weapons are Clayman's Harpoon and Albinauric Staff.

it's an Int/Arc build

[real shadow]

http://puu.sh/KdJnq/ef92f83d0a.jpg

Abigail Thorn?!

[unreal bloom]

Abigail Thornsent

[real shadow]

Ayyyy

[vivid spire]

well

(idk kpop)

[dusty kraken]

Boc only knows how to remove cloaks and that's all he's wearing.

[outer flint]

scadutree level 2 hippo

i should retire from co-op

now i've seen it all

[proper vortex]

sorry for french but what do you think of this build, i use the One winged stance ash of war on my Miladies

i'll switch the crusade emblem for something elsse for bosses maybe magic scorpion

[light bridge]

Endurance 90 feels

Too much

I'd upgrade vigor to at least 50, probably 60

[proper vortex]

but i really need that light roll tho

[light bridge]

Also, why imbue the shield?

[frozen olive]

bruh

end 90 with no damage stat at 80 is crazy to me

[proper vortex]

mainly to slap the carian parry on it

[light bridge]

Personally, I wouldn't upgrade an attribute over 72 ever

[proper vortex]

true it was for a milady/Relanna twin sword, two milady is lighter i should take it down a bit

[frozen olive]

getting damage stats to 80 is fine imo

[proper vortex]

80 is usually when the scaling get a bit wonky

[light bridge]

They stop scaling decently at 60, the strongest spells usually require 72, and past that there's usually more useful stats, like endurance or mind

[outer flint]

any suggestions for dex weapons

the damage on mine has been kinda underwhelming

(malenia mostly)

[light bridge]

Rakshasha katana from the DLC

Otherwise, the washing pole, or whatever its name is in er

[outer flint]

[light bridge]

Katanas are basically the perfect Dex weapon

Good moveset, good range, innate bleed

The long one is specially busted because it has absurd range, very good attack speed, and you can imbue it

[proper vortex]

i can drop to 86 end, and still have the lioght roll

[outer flint]

i see

when i can get waterfowl off, it does do some work

with winged sword and godskin cloth

[proper vortex]

and 84 if i switch to the buckler

[frozen olive]

do what you want tbh

[light bridge]

For the ash of war, piercing fang if PvP, otherwise anything you feel like

[frozen olive]

just crazy to me you would burn that many levels for light roll, i've only ever gotten close to that much END while using a really heavy build with mid roll

[outer flint]

might go lightning tear and gkat lightning slash spam

but will try rakshasa too

[light bridge]

It's very good in every sense, just be aware that you take iirc 5% more damage when you wield it

[outer flint]

🥶

[frozen olive]

yeah highest i've ever done is 60 endurance

splitting between 3 damage stats as well as endurance and vigor kinda does make this build slightly weakes due to more stat spread but i do enjoy playing with it

[light bridge]

Tbh

I wouldn't call anything beyond 200 a "build", at that point you could use almost anything

[frozen olive]

i mean i did very specifically allot all of my points to get everything to work properly so it's a build in that sense

[proper vortex]

okay i passed my faith to 6 and str to 12 to pass my int and dex to 70 and 60 resp

[frozen olive]

put exactly as many points as needed in each stat to get everything to work, it's less focused than some of my other builts still but it's pretty specialized to do what i want it to do

[light bridge]

Genuinely, I think with 60 vigour you'd survive easier than with light roll

[light bridge]

In cases like this I usually hard swap

[frozen olive]

like, going into menu

why?

i usually only use one weapon at a time

this build is specifically so i can have access to everything easily which is why the point distro is like that

[hybrid perch]

Yall is a death build viable? (Like the death bird stuff)

[frozen olive]

idk

try it

[hybrid perch]

I haven’t even completed a single play through

[frozen olive]

then do that i guess

[frozen olive]

love me some weapon variety lol (SOTE final boss spoilers)

[proper vortex]

that woul like something like this

[outer flint]

played pretty badly today, i think i'm just tired

died in co-op a lot

😔

....also really thirsty

stay hydrated y'all

[light bridge]

The frostfire stuff? Yeah

[real shadow]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VEYjL7vKN4

[proven cloak]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOYtBLqb1aY

yay :)

I'm still entertaining lots of ideas about life's crucible rn

with the dlc adding the bird warriors (whos stance + casting is kinda arc like) and doubling down on the spiral stuff, I keep returning to the Farum Ring

[outer flint]

O Farum Ring

this is cool stuff

[proven cloak]

Devonia's neat

I wasn't expecting another so it was a fun surprise

its real easy to mark something as Crucible-y, all it really has to do is kinda erupt chaotically

but as for what it was or is, everybodies got their own ideas

hmmm

and this shape keeps cropping up

a rigid line, a wide arc, a mass of chaotic erupting growths or energy

and if you add that to the Towerfolk's sacred seal, you get the Farum Ring

theres already some weirdness with this rune and how it ties into Marika's

her rune's very similar, but isn't on the Farum Ring - instead, it looks like the top of the Farum Ring got 'pushed down' to become the Rune Arc

(based on the size of the rings)

[frozen olive]

crucible is cool

you can find some visual stuff for it in SOTE

[proven cloak]

and its got associations with trees, and its got association with roots, and its got associations with flowers (in cut content?), and its got association with meteors (in definitely cut content)

[frozen olive]

the strongest associations are with roots and trees

[proven cloak]

chaotic growths, yeah

roots more than trees

[frozen olive]

yeah

[proven cloak]

its the difference between the ancient Erdtree Sigil and the Modern One

but if the ||Scadutree represents one half of the crucible, with the other going to the Erdtree - why is Devonia on the other side of Ruah? Why are they starting at the Divine Gate?||

not the first person to point this out

but the Scadutree also has sap flowing in the same sort of shape - in Marika's rune shape

in a.... Crucible shape?

is Marika's rune just the Crucible Rune pruned of growths?

both are related to life pretty intimately

and while Marika seemed to have made / added her rune at a later date, in the same way that Radagon's got - oh fuck

well she added it herself but it clearly predates her:

as a holy symbol

[proven cloak]

Radagon as the bits of the Crucible-rune chopped away? hence his association with red haired giants, the leonine misbegotten, thorns, and replacing the chaotic growths of the Farum Ring

with a trellis pattern?

His attempts at self-perfection / completion a form of evolution? Incorporating everything under order in a more metaphorical way than lives were blended together?

[light bridge]

Or a desire for purity

[proven cloak]

none of this gets me closer to understanding the physical crucible

grant me eyes fingers.....

[light bridge]

Rejection of the (literal) roots to move onto a more inflexible and "perfected" belief system

Usually happens with religions when they are threatened, as a reaction

[frozen olive]

Tree :)

[proven cloak]

Life "born of a great rupture across the skies"? Life and souls the fault of the GW, stars sent from the cosmos? Leyndell a large crater(?)? The Ocean in the center of the map as a crater?

[proven cloak]

a tree born of the Elden Beast's landing?

Its spell the oldest in the category of crucible spells, though "derived from the Erdtree"

it also having a prominent golden tree, root structure veins, and weird golden current vitality flowing inside of its design

and the golden circle at the top

[grave plinth]

Radagon is extremely Law coded so he may have been essentially trying to impose order on a disordered system. Its telling that his rune has no curves, only rigid intersecting lines

[proven cloak]

when Devonia and the Crucible Tree people also have a single circle ringed by an explosion of life energy

what is THIS!!!!!

impact crater? sun? Elden beast's head?

tree :) ⁉️

[grave plinth]

I see a seed

[proven cloak]

fits the plant motifs

[grave plinth]

The crucible as seen from above

The Divine Gate essentially seems to “tap” the crucible like an oil well

[proven cloak]

you think these factor in at all?

The Erdtree seed of this talisman was presumed to be an object of myth. This age-old artifact also depicts the Two Fingers, perhaps harkening back to the birth of the Erdtree.

birth of the Erdtree here meaning birth of the modern erdtree - or birth of the Erdtree in its primordial form?

[grave plinth]

Yeah my guess is that the Fingers were incorporated into the new cosmic order as “tree aspected” by Marika

[proven cloak]

But the Crucible, the Erdtree in its primordial form, clearly predates Marika

[light bridge]

Slime mold slimemolding

[proven cloak]

so are these talismans representative of the Fingers causing the Erdtree to come about, or the Fingers being - in a way - responsible for the Crucible coming about?

[grave plinth]

The Crucible seems to have been somewhat ethereal

[proven cloak]

"We" according to count ymir were born of the stars - and ||Metyr was the first to fall - did she bring or plant the Crucible? Did she call the Elden Beast who powered the Crucible?||

[grave plinth]

Like its there as a tree but its also this ineffable and insubstantial power that suffuses the world

Hornsent incantations talk about it like a “current”

[proven cloak]

this Thang

(from above)

[grave plinth]

My read on the Elden Beast is that ||it was made/summoned by Marika when she became a god or acquired the Elden Ring, using the knowledge that she gleaned from Metyr and The Fingers||

[proven cloak]

the biggest problem with that - though its possible - is we lose out on any origin for the Elden Ring, while the Elden Beast very clearly is intimately connected to the ring now

[grave plinth]

The Ring changes over time as runes are lost and incorporated

[proven cloak]

and both are heavily connected to life itself, gold, and (in Elden Beast's case) a lot of Crucible Aspects - wings, breath, tail, thorns, etc

more than any other space-based life

[light bridge]

Like the primeval current of magic, which often takes the shape of a literal current or a magical spiral. Spires all flow, in a way

[proven cloak]

but where did it come from?

[grave plinth]

Who knows

Where did quarks and bosons come frome

[proven cloak]

you could say it arose from life creating runes, same as whatever, but then life - from space - still predates it

[grave plinth]

Knowing Miyazaki’s glorantha influences the runes always were and always will be, the platonic ideals of the universe

[proven cloak]

If everything seems cosmic in origin, and we have a definite explanation for a particular time Gold came to the lands between in a great starfall, and the Divine Towers prominently feature golden meteors at the top, and Elden Stars is the most ancient spell in the category of Crucible Spells-

isn't it simpliest to assume the event which brought a great golden shower to the planet is the origin point for the golden crucible?

[frozen olive]

Tree :)

[proven cloak]

[frozen olive]

Always has been

[proven cloak]

spiralg

I think, given context, the elden beast did turn into the Elden Ring in a very literal way, and came in the ancient ancient past

pre-Dragonlord, for sure - probably in the same event that brought the divine tower meteorites.

and then idk maybe. moonlighted as a tree :) for a while. and then Marika got funky?

did her whole girlboss thing?

Erdtree and Scadutree both have their roots in the water because of some great meteoric impact in the past which caused the inner-sea? ||(that theory doesn't play nice with the Shadowlands still being there)||

Forming a basin - a crater with a an extensive root network below, the Deeproot depths? An explosion of life from a central seed?

[proven cloak]

its crazy how 5 faith and 99 faith gets you to the same place huh

[unreal bloom]

My take on it is that the Elden Ring fell to earth and trailed stars and stardust, shedding them as it fell like you see in Elden Stars and the finger sorceries

All life came from the stardust of the elden ring or was born to metyr

The elden star itself was a seed that grew a golden tree, the crucible

From which came a torrent of life

[proven cloak]

yeah, thats basically where I'm at

you'd assume a specific impact point would be easier to nail down though (or covered in Crucible stuff, in Dheo's case)

[unreal bloom]

Tree

[proven cloak]

tree.....

it doesn't escape me that Devonia's weapon art is also evocative of a meteoric impact

[unreal bloom]

so's Ordovis's

and Prayerful Strike, and Golden Land, and even the silly Erdtree Slam

[proven cloak]

and considering they literally slam the torrent of life on the ground to do that

its pretty direct

[unreal bloom]

You wanna know some funny lore I pieced together

And why the hornsent faith spells are described as "sorceries wielded in the form of incantations"

[proven cloak]

those are ||incantations the crusaders adopted from the hornsent||, yeah?

[unreal bloom]

I mean maybe

[proven cloak]

||which is why the seal buffs them?||

[unreal bloom]

but more importantly is the distinction between sorcery and incantations

[proven cloak]

I want to hear your thing this is just what I thought

[unreal bloom]

It's probably true too

The Raya Lucarian folks have little knowledge about the greater will or the elden ring, Sellen even asks if you can clear things up when you become Elden Lord

However, sorceries originate in understanding cosmic phenomena relating to life, which somehow allows you to replicate that phenomena

The first glintstone sorcery was someone glimpsing the primeval current and manifesting it in a rain of stars

Azur's Comet and Stars of Ruin work the same way

[proven cloak]

mhm

(I like how this connects to the motif of eyes, and the themes of 'envisioning' a future / purpose in the game, too)

[unreal bloom]

When you think of what cosmic phenomena the Hornsent sorceries are replicating, it's that they studied the Elden Ring, which is itself a star

[proven cloak]

that all spells are based on seeing something or replicating an event you experienced

[unreal bloom]

The Spiral is a reversal of the Elden Ring's descent

[proven cloak]

taking the primal life that coursed outwards and redirecting it?

climbing back towards the divine

[unreal bloom]

yeah uno reverse card the greater will

rather than divinity descending, ascend to divinity

[proven cloak]

I called the hornsent "fantasy transhumanists" on another server

[proven cloak]

since they seem to worship the crucible because it can evolve them

same with Elden Stars erupting outwards, and the spiral kind of pulling tighter as it rises

yeah I can see it

[unreal bloom]

Also: re the red of the crucible, there are four aspects of the crucible I've identified that were torn from it by Marika or which deviated from it

Death, fire, rot, and homeward yearning – ie, returning to the crucible's primordial gold

Notably, all of these represent natural cycles that apply to trees

Marika cut the Erdtree off from all of them because she wanted it to be eternal

And, ironically, doomed it immediately to lifelessness and stagnation

Without the natural cycles of death and rejuvenation, forests and ecosystems can't thrive properly

The Hornsent, for all their faults, understood this, which is why they worshipped the spiral/cycle of life and death

[proven cloak]

Homework yearning connected to the formless mother, and her love for the scorned and cursed?

[unreal bloom]

idk lol

Formless Mother is implied to be some kinda fucked up star

[proven cloak]

oh I thought you were naming the four for the outer gods specifically

[unreal bloom]

Naw outer gods are too dubious

[proven cloak]

cause we got
Twinbird
Rot
Formless Mother

and then probably(?) Frenzied Flame

most likely frenzied flame

though its really just the needle

[unreal bloom]

Frenzied Flame feels like something else, it feels more primal

It's the only force on par with the greater will

[proven cloak]

mhm

especially with the depictions of the Greater Will in the dlc leaning much more towards eye-shapes

[unreal bloom]

Both the greater will and frenzied flame are depicted in almost the same way

grace in the eyes, a black hole surrounded by light, with fingers as their messengers

[proven cloak]

I seperate them too because the needle is just ambigious enough - it was crafted too ward away Outer Gods and is capable of subduing the flame of frenzy. Causes could be connected or nah

[proven cloak]

I see it a bit as... not blasphemy necessarily

but that the Frenzied Flame takes the Greater Will's stuff and makes it wrong

[unreal bloom]

We actually learned what the frenzied flame does in the DLC

It obliterates

[proven cloak]

yellow, not gold

[unreal bloom]

It is non-existence

[proven cloak]

its always destructive yeah

[unreal bloom]

The Greater Will is the source of all that is

The Frenzied Flame can obliterate all that is

[proven cloak]

its not a chaos that creates change, its the abyss

[unreal bloom]

Interesting thing I noted by the way

The room where you fight ||Midra|| is called the Discussion Chamber. Throughout the area, you can find items stating they were directly touched by the three fingers. If you look on the floor of the Discussion Chamber, you can see that a mat is laid out in front of a large burning patch of ground that is scarred and covered in Hornsent weapons stabbed into the ground at angles, like they were being used to tear something from the floor. The Three Fingers are entombed deep, deep below the earth, in ancient ruins. I think the Hornsent came to see what ||Midra|| was up to, saw him on his knees before the three fingers chatting furiously, and were like "naw, son"

and then they ripped it outta there and threw it in the deepest darkest hole they could find

[vivid spire]

Honestly sensible

[proven cloak]

you know about the ||Finger Ruin assets|| underneath the cloth in one of the rooms?

[unreal bloom]

yeah it's wacky

[light bridge]

I don't think the three fingers are a singular entity

Like the two fingers, which are several of (all descendants of ||Metyr||), the three fingers must have been normal fingers before they got taken over by the frenzy flame

[hybrid perch]

So the frenzied flame has no physical form by itself?

[light bridge]

I don't think so

At least no more than the greater will

And like it, it needs a "champion" or a lord to channel its power

[hybrid perch]

Btw what happens to those things in the rannis ending

Sorry I forgot it’s full name

[proven cloak]

which things

Outer Gods?

probably not much, unless you think they're spawned by the Elden Ring or its influence directly

even then, Ranni's more about the obscuring of Order than fully removing its influence - she wants it distant, impossible to spot

considering that a lot of the trouble comes from people interacting with these forces of their own volition, or persecuting others, they'll probably keep cropping in up in the history of the Lands Between going forward

The Bloodfiends or the Haligtree Rot Pests aren't just going to stop their faith - and Ranni's ending is about not forcing people to your ideology with god-power.

if ||Miquella got an ending, that'd be the one where they are "dealt with" most clearly - but take a look at how doubling down on removing something antithetical to your Order has gone for Marika. Unalloyed Gold might work, there might be consequences. Who knows?||

[unreal bloom]

The Greater Will embodies all existence, the Frenzied Flame embodies non-existence and is a violation of reality for the purpose of obliterating reality

A direct comparison of what each looks like demonstrates the difference: both are symbolic of the universe, but while the Greater Will is the starry expanse of the cosmos contained within a golden ring at its edges, the Frenzied Flame is the edges, wildly burning inwards and consuming the cosmos like a reality greasefire

The Greater Will

The Flame of Frenzy

Both are more primal forces than outer gods, though the Three Fingers are described as a god outright and effects that ward away outer gods can be used against it, so its true nature is wonky

While the Greater Will is more than any god could ever be

The Frenzied Flame, representing oblivion and non-existence, wishes to undo the Greater Will’s creation of stars and thus the universe, returning to the nothingness before reality

It isn’t even explicitly evil, it’s just a friggin alien freakazoid that responds to the prayers of the truly miserable and despairing who wish for oblivion, sympathetically viewing their sorrow as justification of its own goals

One element where it is somewhat correct is that the life created by the Greater Will can never truly die

Nothing else can kill spirits and spirits retain their consciousness forever. Even those graced by the Erdtree with physical immortality have largely gone completely insane as a result, wandering endlessly and pitifully scrabbling at the dirt - imagine what happens to spirits that have been around since the dawn of life

Most of the beings you find wishing for death and chaos are themselves already dead

One interesting little tangle is that the Greater Will’s plan for the universe, if it has one, is represented in the primeval current and the stars, which are confirmed to suck and be garbage

Not only are the stars horrifying alien monstrosities with little respect for earthly life, but those who truly understand the primeval current enough to know its nature and where it leads all go insane because it’s so horrible, referencing a terrifying lightless abyss and some sort of horrible ruin

[hybrid perch]

https://tenor.com/view/full-moon-bloodborne-gif-13663686

?

[unreal bloom]

Actually the moon is a cool guy in elden ring

The moon is how sorcerers redirect the stars and thus wrest control of the universe from the primeval current

[hybrid perch]

so the stars are evil?

[unreal bloom]

They’re more just horrible aliens

The nicest one is Elden Beast and it’s horrifying

[kind garden]

I mean, you know my perspective on this

it's not that the the plan sucks, it's that knowing it shatters your mind

[hybrid perch]

why do we beat the living shit out of the nicest star?

[unreal bloom]

Because even the nicest star is an asshole who crucifies people

[kind garden]

and if you follow the demihuman path then you can see that mind shattering revelation incoming well enough to do like Yosh and immediately head underground to never see the stars again

[hybrid perch]

I'll never look at the night sky the same way again

[proven cloak]

I'm a bit of a EB apologist

[unreal bloom]

There’s a reason Radahn was considered a hero for beating up the stars

[proven cloak]

Marika struck first tbf

[kind garden]

the ruin in the stars is knowing too damn much and your brain going kablooey

(turning into crystal)

[unreal bloom]

Get crystal skull’d loser

[kind garden]

there's a whole neat determinism angle in that determinism vs free will was a big religious divide back in the day

[proven cloak]

the moons are ambigiously alive

[kind garden]

moons are a celestial body and people definitely seem to think that like stars, all celestial bodies have some kind of will or life

whether or not that's true is kind of ambiguous

[hybrid perch]

so then why does Rani want to invoke the ||age of stars||

[unreal bloom]

Cause she’s using the moon on them or is just a weirdo for stars

[grave plinth]

The Star Spawn like Astel don’t really seem to have intent

[kind garden]

Ranni's age of stars is one where no stars are allowed to land on the earth

[proven cloak]

she thinks the problems of the Golden Order, and the Fingers, were their controlling nature

guidance is too immanent

[unreal bloom]

Most likely she’s just using the dark moon to stop the stars from falling anymore

[hybrid perch]

wasn't astels title voidborn?

[proven cloak]

she doesnt want people to have easy answers on what shapes the direction of peoples lives - she doesn't want faith to be so direct

[kind garden]

the Elden Ring (and Beast) is a star fallen to earth, and Ranni's take is "nah, that's stupid"

[unreal bloom]

The void is the Greater Will

[frozen olive]

Naturalborn of the void

[kind garden]

Aye, Astel is a malformed star sent from the lightless void of the Greater Will

[spring marlin]

on that note, the amber starlight is an incredibly out of the way part of the star discussion that i feel doesnt get enough attention

[proven cloak]

you can substitute "Greater Will" for "Cosmos" in the dialogue and it almost always still works

[hybrid perch]

my brain trying to comprehend er lore

https://tenor.com/view/melting-heart-gif-79316894563882572

I like it but

it melts

[proven cloak]

the interesting thing

[kind garden]

it's implied that the Microcosm is basically a mini-universe model, and the "lightless void" is quite literally just the black emptiness of space when viewed holistically

[proven cloak]

is that the Greater Will's off-handedness with its creation mirrors Ranni's solution

[spring marlin]

there are apparently specific amber stars that "command the fates of the gods". the one amber starlight in the game being below a statue of malenia & miquella might infer that's the fate he abandoned, though wouldn't it be in the lands of shadow?

[proven cloak]

It stopped responding to Metyr, it didn't give her answers or guidance anymore

[kind garden]

okay interesting note, red (amber) is the color of the Crucible and homeward yearning

[spring marlin]

though if it was as easy as doing that i don't think ranni would have done that whole elaborate plot and accidentally a godwyn

[kind garden]

that Amber Starlight may in fact not be a star from the sky, but a broken-off piece of god juice

earthbound divine starlight

[proven cloak]

yeah, Primordial Gold had a redder tint to it - amber

[unreal bloom]

The hat of Count Ymir, High Priest. The circular design at the top represents the Greater Will and its lightless abyss, imparting increased intelligence and arcane to the wearer.

One of the glintstone sorceries that manipulates gravitational forces. Fires a gravitational projectile that pulls in enemies before finally exploding. Charging extends reach of projectile and number of inward pulls. Said to have originated in the lightless dark far beyond—the home of the fallingstar beasts.

[kind garden]

we know that the Elden Beast rode a golden star to earth, but who's to say the Crucible is not stellar in nature as well?

[proven cloak]

Amber Star might be transferable with Golden Star

[unreal bloom]

I think the Crucible is just the result of the stardust of the elden ring

All life originated in stardust, and the Crucible was all life blended together in a golden tree

[kind garden]

you know

the Crucible could factually be the golden star that the Elden Beast rode to the Lands Between

[unreal bloom]

Sure

[kind garden]

buncha stellar life-energy just left lying around

[unreal bloom]

I don’t like that as much because the Crucible is referred to as the primordial erdtree

[kind garden]

well

knowing what we know about Marika and the Erdtree

and the Erdtree seed

[proven cloak]

the Erdtree at least does seem to spring from the Elden Ring

[hybrid perch]

I love how elden rings lore is so deep in so many aspects

[kind garden]

it tracks that you could essentially take that unrefined life and pour it into the Erdtree's seed

[proven cloak]

and the Elden Beast, though it might only be representing the current Order, does have all those tree motifs in its tail and veins

[unreal bloom]

GRRM mentioned at one point that Miyazaki had him write 5000 years of lore

[proven cloak]

none of the other star life is that plant-like, I think?

[kind garden]

it is not, no

hmm

the Elden Ring logically has to have descended long ago

[unreal bloom]

Fingers sort of are

It is the origin of all life

Well, ish

[kind garden]

the Crucible is both a process by which the innate divine characteristics of living beings are refined as well as a physical object that is a reservoir of primordial life-energy

[unreal bloom]

Yeh

[proven cloak]

Its at least older than the ancient dragons, who seem old

Borealis' spell says that the Fire Giants fought with Drakes in the mountaintops when they first arrived

so Bayle had to already have been a thing long before them

[unreal bloom]

Dragons are dinosaurs

[proven cloak]

basically yeah

literal stone age

[unreal bloom]

They’re basically the highest order of divine beasts as well

Ruling a divine kingdom suspended in the heavens by storms

[proven cloak]

my speculation is that the dragons, same as the onyx lords

literally rose from meteoric impacts

[unreal bloom]

All life did

[proven cloak]

fallingstar beasts are also very rocky

yeah but I mean very directly from them

[unreal bloom]

Except the albinaurics they on some other shit

[proven cloak]

Bayle shows how stone-life can turn into fleshy life later

the nightfolk used to bleed silver - now they dont

it seems like things can move from inorganic to organic over a long enough time

[proven cloak]

and if the Golden Comet and the Elden Beast came together,

well

its file name is nebula dragon

[unreal bloom]

I’m pretty sure gravel stones are just the dragon equivalent of crucible horns

[unreal bloom]

(One reason I think it was the god of the dragons who abandoned placidusax when he lost the mandate of heaven by getting his shit wrecked)

[proven cloak]

maybe!

one of my favorite parts of elden rings cosmic horror

[unreal bloom]

We know the one thing the Elden Beast and Metyr hate is wars from which no lord arises

[proven cloak]

is realizing that its not the Astel that looks like humans, its not that these aliens have human hands

its that humans look like aliens

that shit is older than you, you take after it

[unreal bloom]

The starfolk are big into fingers

[kind garden]

Lampreys prove the rule no?

[proven cloak]

I think of the Elden Beast as very... not mechanical, but like a guardian spirit

I dont know if want particularly factors into its actions

it is the Order, if it was alive

most of its time was spent as a ring

[unreal bloom]

I do like that Metyr and Elden Beast are just making it up as they go along and have no idea what they’re doing

[kind garden]

mostly Metyr

[proven cloak]

"Guess we makin circles now" but its Elden Beast

Metyr trying to ask her supervisor

[kind garden]

the Elden Beast is along for the ride

"Metyr what are we doing"
"Holy war, duh"
"Why?"
"Shut the fuck up. Greater Will says so, okay?"
"He didn't tell me-"
"BECAUSE YOU'RE STUPID AND DON'T KNOW ANYTHING!"

just

coping out of her fucking mind

[unreal bloom]

I do think that the Elden Beast lived with Placidusax until A WAR FROM WHICH NO LORD AROSE made EB ditch ‘em and meet up with Marika, the new hotness, and she was like “buddy you won’t believe how committed i am to this partnership i will literally stick you inside my heart”

“just one thing can we fuck up the hornsent before anything else cool thanks don’t need to know anything more”

[proven cloak]

before anything else
leads a war against the giants, two against liurnia, and has several kids
what WAS she cooking

[unreal bloom]

Gotta take over the world to impress the oldheads of the greater will

Gotta have wars from which a lord arises

Gotta snag that mandate of heaven

[proven cloak]

mfw when I stare into the Abyss and the Abyss doesn't stare back :(

[unreal bloom]

Ghosted by the Abyss

I do like how even into the greater will it’s all a thematic sequel to dark souls 3 londor ending

“What if the dark soul and the abyss was the big divinity instead of the first flame” type beat

Notably in DS3 the abyss is noted to be a terrifying font of infinite life

Represented with the imagery of a circle

[kind garden]

tbh Metyr got ghosted by her dad

that shit sucks

[unreal bloom]

Poor Metyr

[proven cloak]

its got a bit of the fire stuff too

core of Fire in dark souls 1 was Disparity, that things can be distinguished

which matches well with causality, and how the universal creation is described as a "rupture", or things being "divided, born, and given life"

[proven cloak]

when do we think this happened btw

Shattering War, Pre-Marika, Pre-pre-Marika?

[old brook]

From the sounds of things she didn't rightly have reception right on arrival

but that's also partly Ymir being flowery about it

[proven cloak]

he's biased, but he does seem to point at her losing signs at least before Marika

"defective from the start"

[unreal bloom]

I still love that the one person who may have received direct contact with the greater will is goldmask

Somehow

99 faith 99 int made contact with deist conception of god

[old brook]

Just gotta stand far enough away and squint at it

[unreal bloom]

Don’t ask how

[old brook]

I think with the Fundamentalist stuff it's more they like.. chart out the course given the 'math' behind it all

[proven cloak]

its simple you just gotta ☝️ 🌞 👉

[old brook]

Like he just. Solved it

[proven cloak]

his rune does look a lot like the Microcosm

[proven cloak]

I think the Greater Will / Order is the math behind it

[spring marlin]

T posing for so long you reach the gods

[proven cloak]

it might be an acadamic distinction

[old brook]

I do wonder how the MarikaRadagon was the final puzzle

[spring marlin]

truly brilliant behavior

[old brook]

Like what'd that sort out for ya, big guy

[spring marlin]

i do think that's more of a philosophical revelation than anything. goldmask decides after realizing the golden order was founded on marika and radagon both that marika was the problem, ergo the gods must be removed

[proven cloak]

he was operating under false pretenses, basically

the Golden Order is founded on the idea Marika is the one true god, but by investigating the fundementals long enough

Radagon being Marika is the piece that let him fully move beyond that

[unreal bloom]

A mask designed to resemble a blazing golden halo. Created and left behind by Lord Goldmask, a staunch pursuer of Golden Order fundamentalism. Strenthens Golden Order incantations. Its striking design represents both the brilliant inspiration that once shone upon him, and the vision of a ring that he will surely find at the end of his pursuit. "To you who seek to shine as I do, wear it well!"

[spring marlin]

the gods are just people in elden ring, very powerful and very flawed people

[old brook]

( Also give that spell more range, FromSoft )

[frozen olive]

THE EVER BRILLIANT GOLD MASK

[proven cloak]

I like the metaphor of it too

[spring marlin]

THE EVER BRILLIANT GOLDMASK

[old brook]

Clearly the narrator's favorite

[proven cloak]

Goldmask-
sorry

THE EVER BRILLIANT GOLDMASK's conception of Order

is all inclusive, it makes no distinction for what's outside

[unreal bloom]

The narrator is a prophet so he’s just fanboying like Corhyn

THE EVER BRILLIANT

[proven cloak]

rather, Order is creation entirely

[unreal bloom]

Naw Order is the Mandate of Heaven

Miyazaki personally confirmed this

[frozen olive]

the mandate of heaven? mine

[old brook]

And in his off-time he built the best ranged weapons around

Whadda guy

[spring marlin]

and sir gideon ofnir, the ALLLLLLLLLL KNOWING

[unreal bloom]

Order is the reigning order of reality as imposed by ruling powers

There have been previous Orders and depending on your choices there will be future Orders

But the Elden Beast and Metyr are big into the Mandate of Heaven, ie, if you keep winning you have the divine right of kings and if you ever lose you shouldn’t have had it to begin with

This bit them in the ass when A WAR FROM WHICH NO LORD AROSE happened and left them with nothing

[old brook]

I wonder how things would have turned out if Radagon wasn't also trying to repair the ring

[proven cloak]

its fundementals are mathematics though - its metaphysical physics as tangible

[old brook]

Would there have been as big a war if there weren't big ol' chunks for grabbing

[unreal bloom]

That’s cause the Elden Ring is the divine constitution of reality

It is the Backyard

[proven cloak]

perhaps she should've just cast him away in a hole somewhere beforehand

It is the Backyard, isn't it

the issue is the fundementals of reality being affected by mortal politics

[old brook]

God, I want to see how Marika managed all this

instead of just being a frenzy-tier pit of despair