Elden Ring (DLC hype room)

[stone cove]

in which case it can easily produce multiple extra Impaling Thrusts

Boss fight is what...3 minutes? 4 minutes for a succsefull victory?

let's say 4.

That's a 120 fp it'll make

(Assumign it can always regenrate fp)

Imapling thrust costs 9 fp

So that's an extra 13 impaling thrusts across the fight

without having to drink

Oh, re, Blessing Boon, look up Heal from Afar in the dlc

it is hilariously broken

https://eldenring.wiki.fextralife.com/Heal+from+Afar

Heals (4.2x Faith Incantation Scaling) HP to self and heals (3.36x Faith Incantation Scaling) HP to friendly entities affected by the spell

Notably you can just.. throw it at the ground

or the wall

[paper badge]

random thing I feel like could have lore implications

[stone cove]

and it's only slightly slower than than drinking a flask

[paper badge]

that one demi human queen boss in cerulean coast

Demi-Human Queen Marigga

why is she named something so similar

[stone cove]

Demi-Human Queen Margot
Demi-Human Queen Maggie
Demi-Human Queen Gilika
Demi-Human Queen Marigga

Is the full list of demihuamn names

so... it seems more like their naming convetions favour sound stha re similar

THAT SAID< it is yet anotehr link in the "Demi-humans and Radagon (+ Marika) have werid linkages)

[paper badge]

Marigga is too close to Marika to be a coincidence imo

[left willow]

Blessing's Boon is just cause it heals over time, which is very nice, imo

[spring marlin]

despite their mistreatment by the golden order, the misbegotten seem to revere marika/radagon the most

another chain in the cycle between marika and the crucible, i suppose

though that relationship seems to be more from subjugation and fear than anything, if we take hewg's words into account

[left willow]

MISBEGOTTEN ARE SO DAMN COOL

smooth sharks

[spring marlin]

...ahh, wait, i've been conflating them and demi-humans

[left willow]

Ah, same

[spring marlin]

though it's not too far a stretch to say their circumstances are very similar

[left willow]

Little grey goobers or scalies?

[covert schooner]

Grey fellas

The ape men

Are the ones with the queens

[left willow]

Demihumans

Correct

Misbegotten are the Crucible-creature-things

[spring marlin]

my best guess with the demi-human queens is that they name themselves after the gods they hear of in legend, sort of this pale imitation

[left willow]

I very much confused them early on too, but I just did a "deep" dive on the two cause I'm about to run a ttrpg set in the Lands Between

[paper badge]

it seems like Demi-Humans get marginally more respect than Misbegotten

like, their queens are trained in sorcery and given specially-made staves

the demi-human swordsmen are no joke

[left willow]

(As deep is a relative term here)

[paper badge]

Kenneth Haight makes a big hubbub about how the golden order accepts them

in like a patronizing way

[left willow]

Demi-Humans are not explicitly apostates

[proven cloak]

elden ring likes to put npcs in places that reference other characters imo

[spring marlin]

though with game file names calling the misbegotten "children of radagon" the relationship may be more literal than just imitation, but take this side of speculation with two grains of salt

[paper badge]

but still better treatment than the misbegotten

[proven cloak]

fell twins on the road to the Morgott + Mohg tower, Crucible Knight and Misbegotten in Redmane castle,

it might just be a marker that Queen Marika is connected to that place

or maybe its just a joke on the name

(but those coffins do look like the Eternal Cities)

[paper badge]

one thing I vaguely headcanon

is that the Shaman/Numen folk came to the Land of Shadow aboard the coffin boats

[left willow]

because the Golden Order venerate Marika/the Erd Tree
And the Misbegotten venerate the Crucible.
And the Misbegotten are easier to beat down on than the Crucible Knights

[spring marlin]

besides their scraps of lore about being godfrey's followers the crucible knights are so funny because they show up just when you least expect them

[mighty warren]

Onto cycle 3

[spring marlin]

random waygate in the four belfries, behind a curved staircase in leyndell, chilling out in a plaza in cfa

and one more in the lands of shadow just to mess with you

[modest berry]

im suprised marika tolerates them considering her past honestly though they are found roaming all over the place

[obtuse halo]

"tolerates them" honestly can you picture leyndell knights or whatever trying to take them down?

[spring marlin]

marika did seem to draft the rest of the old crucible followers, the black knights, into messmer's crusade

[obtuse halo]

lol. lmao.

[spring marlin]

though i imagine the core sixteen either stuck with godfrey or scattered to the winds, only returning later

[obtuse halo]

There is one squirreled away in an Evergaol early on though

[left willow]

Crucible Knights truly be like: you cannot kill me in a way that matters

[modest berry]

at least 2 of them are ex crucible i think but yeah it might be more of a, "who gonna stop me " type thing

[obtuse halo]

also two that seem to be dead and captured by a spiritcaller snail

[modest berry]

siluria and ordovis?, who seem to be like, captains of a sort with other knights fitting into those catagories style wise

beyond devonia for obvious reasons

[spring marlin]

that knight in stormhill killed me more times than margit and godrick combined on my first playthrough

[paper badge]

imagine you trip and hit your head on a rock and die near one of them and now one of those goofy snake snails has pressed your soul into undying service

[left willow]

Damn

[left willow]

Jailbaits are generally really easy as a madoka

[modest berry]

maybe thats like the one win godrick and his armies were able to get and he has him stashed like a trophy

[obtuse halo]

...what?

[spring marlin]

what was that snail in the mountaintops cave doing with a whole godskin duo at its beck and call

what sort of events led up to that

[left willow]

The exception being women in STEM (stabbing, torture, execution, and murder)

[paper badge]

they froze to death not enough skins

[obtuse halo]

godskins are weak to frostbite, right?

maybe they got killed by the dragon outside

[left willow]

I maintain that a game where you effectively play as a spiritcaller snail would be so damn cool

[modest berry]

they are somewhat reptilian

[nova smelt]

Spoilers ||I think Melina is the daughter of both Marika and the Gloam Eyed Queen||

[left willow]

No, she's the Blade of Miquella and has never known defeat, obvs

[paper badge]

they unfortunately couldn't find enough sweet, supple godskin to insulate themselves against the cold

[left willow]

Not really

More weak to sleep, according to what I'm seeing

(And bleed)

[spring marlin]

i don't think i'll ever come to a satisfying conclusion on where GEQ fits into the family tree and that's okay

[kind garden]

||Melina is the GEQ||

[nova smelt]

I'm choosing to believe my theory

[left willow]

||Marika and GEQ being gay together is truly 10/10||

[nova smelt]

It's the only way the plot makes sense imo

And it's wonderfully tragic/fucked

||Marika conceiving a child with her would be god-consort before betraying her and stealing that godhood for herself|| is in character and fascinating

[covert schooner]

I think the GEQ’s identity

Kinda doesn’t matter

Not insofar as it’s not fun to speculate about it

[nova smelt]

It doesn't really but it does help explain who Melina is and I find that fun

[covert schooner]

But I think it’s intent is just “this world has weathered threats before”

[nova smelt]

Wait was it Maliketh that defeated the GEQ

[median rock]

damn didnt know makar had 2 different summons available

wait u can get millicent too i know that one i gotta get all 3

[obtuse halo]

Yeah there are three

Though you can still only summon two

[median rock]

ah are NPC summons blocked after the first 2? damn

[languid tiger]

what's the third?

[median rock]

boggart lol

[languid tiger]

I can only think of tragoth and millie

wild

boggoat the hero

[median rock]

i know millie and i think i knew tragoth from a while ago but never knew boggart was an option

[languid tiger]

same

[obtuse halo]

Yeah he shows up with iron fists and braggarts roar

[languid tiger]

only way to get either of those is to kill him, too

[median rock]

his quest is all wacko this ng because i bought necklace from a while ago, but never talked to him to buy crab, so he didnt die when i did the dung eater invasion

[covert schooner]

I could not figure out why you were referring to me in this message

And then I was like

“Oh wait”

[median rock]

lmao

[obtuse halo]

(Well, or let dung eater do it)

[spring marlin]

i'd say tragoth has gotta go for the bull goat set in my playthroughs but now that the verdigris set exists i can play a poise monster that isn't a fashion disaster

[languid tiger]

moral imperative to kill him instantly

[median rock]

dung eater got the puppet treatment this time around

[obtuse halo]

Solitude too 😌

I like Verdigris but solitude is damn sexy

[spring marlin]

very true

the most guts guy in a long legacy of fromsoft guts guys

[median rock]

also wow fromsoft quest dialogue is broken if you do the slightest thing out of order

i killed neil+ met millicent before gowry, so his first line was "i want you to meet millicent" and his second line was "hmmm mmmm mmm very nice craftsmanship let me have this for a bit" with zero context on what he was taking

[obtuse halo]

Lol classic

[median rock]

he also said 'mmmm' for an uncomfortably long amount of time. stop staring at the needle weirdly old man

triple summons got

boggart is staring at the rocks and punching them occasionally....

[atomic plinth]

Bro's shadowboxing

[median rock]

i will also add he turned around and walked into the wall to punch it, that's not his just default spawn spot

and now not did i reject tragoths offer, i have turned around and killed him (i'm only here for patches questline tbh)

[left willow]

What a weird lil guy

[stone cove]

Fun thing is they're all named after peroids of biological history

[modest berry]

yep

[stone cove]

Devonian, Silurian and Ordovician Periods

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordovician#/media/File:460_Ma_paleoglobe.png

See the earth just refusing to cmmit to this thing called land

[obtuse halo]

fits nicely with the Crucible seemingly representing evolution itself

I didn't actually make that connection but yep I sure do know about those periods

I wrote a couple of papers on the Silurian even

so if we meet another unique Crucible Knight they'll probably be named Carbonifera 😛

[modest berry]

cambria

[left willow]

Dino Knights, Dino Knights, Dino Knights

[modest berry]

knights of the soup

[obtuse halo]

Well, first we'd have to get Crucible Knight Permia and that guy just scours the whole goddamn lands between

[stone cove]

The mass extinctions are wild

[obtuse halo]

Crucible Knight Permia is the one that fell to the Frenzied Flame probably

[stone cove]

If you want a good look at this stuff, i no joke no irony reocmmend Science of Discworld for a breezy but excellent broad level look at this

(Teh first book, the later books are good but more psecific and complicaited)

but the first book is an excellent look at "How the earth well, happened" and life developing

[obtuse halo]

I, uh, am just autistic and had a particular interest in geology as a kid

[stone cove]

as well as the sheer insanity of just how many mass extinctions kept happening

[obtuse halo]

so I did. a lot of reading

[stone cove]

@obtuse halo Also autistic, but it was dinosaurs

[obtuse halo]

fair

[stone cove]

Which when your parents are also like not quite conersative baptist hcristan but also kinda

bit of a trip

I have had Some Arguments with my dad re evoloutioon and shit, and ugggh, i do not like remerbing what a dumbass young and still very fiathful penguin was

[obtuse halo]

oh dear yeah I can see that being a little surreal

my parents are a little prone to magical thinking but were never like. not like that

[stone cove]

(eventual grown up (as much as like 18-19 is) basically went full agnostic after dealign with a church sermon shitting on buddhists and other religons)

and going "Ya know, teh buddhist i know is fucking lovely and one of the kinder humans, so you can take this shit and shove it"

[left willow]

Mood, but little hades

[proven cloak]

I like how the dlc took this, which was already established in the base game

and expanded on what a society that fully worships this force as evolution would be like - chasing the divine

when the Spira incantation calls the spiral a normalized Crucible current, its saying its a directed form of evolution

a thrust upwards, towards the gods

||and making people into 'higher' / blessed life is exactly what the Divine Gate ends up doing||

[left willow]

As long as they're on top, I'll thrust whatever direction they want 😏

Penguin hitting me with a newspaper in... 3

[modest berry]

i actually dig that, one that sees the flame as another incarnation of the crucible, everything returned to singular melted primordial oneness

[atomic plinth]

Seems nobody's using the old Raya Lucaria Front Gate area for fight clubbing anymore

What a shame

[stone cove]

Intercontential decaption newspaper strike

[atomic plinth]

https://tenor.com/view/newspaper-gif-18150652

[left willow]

Literally my daily goals

[median rock]

it's actually pretty fun to go around following npcs to wherever you're allowed to summon them

for example, millicent is REALLY bad at fighting the black blade kindred right before the rold lift

considering it has resistance to slash (which i think she deals) and just spins around dumpstering her with destined death

but it's fun to watch them go

[obtuse halo]

Millicent is the most summonable npc in the game and conspicuously not amazing at half the fights you can summon her for lol

she's pretty useless against Makar too

She really is Elden Ring's Lucatiel

[median rock]

she's doing her best 😌

[gray leaf]

Random late-night interjecting thought: do you think there’s any sort of name connection between ||Metyr and Metatron||?

[median rock]

like to be fair i think any melee npcs would suck balls against both makar and black blade kindred

they suck balls at dealing with attacks where you need to not approach for a sec (destined death spinny, lava on ground)

[gray leaf]

This doesn’t mean anything either way and I don’t particularly have more to say about it, but I just wanted to toss that out there.

[median rock]

its like Ds brother and valiant gargs, he'll just stand in the stupid poison breath and die

[obtuse halo]

Tragoth does pretty well against Makar but he's also a poise monster with the giant crusher

[median rock]

i tried him a while ago and i seem to recall him getting run over repeatedly, like myself

[obtuse halo]

he's not summonable for BBK though I suspect he'd get melted

[median rock]

but maybe he's better if he's in an animation though

[left willow]

idk, doesn't one want to expand the decepticons and establish an autocratic state on cybertron?

[median rock]

with active poise

[left willow]

||And the other is just... a bunch of fingies?||

[obtuse halo]

i'm unsure if you're joking or if you've actually mixed up Metatron and Megatron 😛

hard to be sure without tone

[left willow]

No no, that was a joke, sorry

[obtuse halo]

aha

anyway millicent does well in the other fight's she's summonable for at least. Does good vs Godskin Apostle and Draconic Tree Sentinel

If you fight her sisters she also kicks so much ass in that fight oh my god

if you can keep her from getting gangstabbed by all four of them at once I've watched her slaughter all of them no problem

Gowry really wasn't kidding about her being the best of her sisters

[left willow]

[more comments that will get me walloped by newspapers]

[atomic plinth]

Y'all think Melina could be part of Ranni, somehow?

[left willow]

I could see it

[proven cloak]

I think its prob more from the proto-europian root for mother

[atomic plinth]

She mentions something about being burned and bodiless, and Ranni's body looks pretty crispy

[proven cloak]

but she's def doing the same thing

[atomic plinth]

Not to mention her closed eye and Ranni's are on opposite sides

[median rock]

i don't think so, mostly because we have a pretty clear picture of what happened to both ranni's body and ranni's soul

[atomic plinth]

Meaning that weird little shadow girl face could be Melina's

[median rock]

and no real reason to believe that ranni is more fractured than that

[gray leaf]

||Messmer’s Ember|| or whatever it’s called implies otherwise?

[left willow]

Oh, I misunderstood

[proven cloak]

Shes also compared to fire, and Ranni's cold

[left willow]

I thought you meant "connected" not literally "split from"

[median rock]

i'm very willing to believe they're both marika's kids

[left willow]

I could see Ranni having been the "conceiver" in some manner

[left willow]

Or a sibling, yeah

[median rock]

er i meant like

siblings. to each other, they are both marika's children

[gray leaf]

There’s such a proliferation of lore videos and theories, I can’t watch most of them, let alone understand them… but there’s that thing about Melina not being born from a mother… I need to think and talk about this more tomorrow when I’m on my computer.

[median rock]

i think theres no way theyre marika's siblings or something. too young

well melina at least

not counting DLC lore

[obtuse halo]

Melina was probably born from the Erdtree.

[median rock]

i think melina's dialogue is pretty clear that marika is her mother at least and technically speaking so is ranni but via radagon

[left willow]

Is Marika capable of parthenogenesis?

[median rock]

idk she split in half at some point what more do youneed

[left willow]

Was Radagon a different person and then possessed by Marika or was Radagon always Marika?

[median rock]

nobody knows for sure but i think the fact that radagon is said to "always have sought completness" or something implies the latter

i personally think he was marika trying to seek a little independence from her newly-taken-up duties, since radagon is said to have been learning spells via raya lucaria & incantations via the golden order to find "completion"

[proven cloak]

I mean, Malenia is

[median rock]

so possibly also trying to find a way to break free from the greater will, or something, it's not clear

[proven cloak]

and Marika seems to be a goddess of Life, directly connected to the Erdtree (which births people anew)

@left willow Millicent's quest! The 'daughters' of rot that bloomed in Aeonia

afaik they're like 'buds' off Malenia

[left willow]

Oh, oh, that was straight up

[proven cloak]

I dont think they were born of a father

[left willow]

Neat, I get it now

[proven cloak]

it might just be an Empyrean thing

||Or a shaman thing? or both?||

[left willow]

I thought they were... metaphorically daughters of Mal

Not... literally

[proven cloak]

Thats kind of how I see Melina's relationship to Marika

she has that dialogue of being unsure about how 'being born from a mother' means you should act

[obtuse halo]

Millicent states directly that she's sure she's somehow of Malenia's blood, though doesn't quite understand how.

[median rock]

idk they do look almost identical to her and each other

and they are called buds....

mini-me it is

[proven cloak]

but also was born, left bodiless, and given purpose 'at the foot of the Erdtree' / 'by her mother [in] the Erdtree'

could totally be some cast off spirit

[left willow]

It makes sense, I just... missed every clue out there

[obtuse halo]

Millicent is basically as close as you get to hanging out with Malenia and you know what? She's great, in my unbiased lesbian opinion

[proven cloak]

I was thinking about how Elden Ring's themes on motherhood kind of continue what bloodbourne was poking at, but in the opposite direction

BB was about pregnancy and losing children, the hardships of having children / not being able to have children

[left willow]

For someone who hasn't played Bloodborne do you mind explaining?

[median rock]

mothers are based actually instead of mothers arent real they leave before you're born?

[proven cloak]

Elden Ring is very into absent parents

its like yearning for a kid versus yearning for a parent (and for ER, a mother specifically)

[proven cloak]

would you believe I also haven't played BB

surely one day it'll get a PC port...!

|| ||

[left willow]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[proven cloak]

but as I understand it, its got a lot of imagery and themes about childbirth

all the Eldritch Great Ones seek children of their own

either their own, or something they can 'parent'

[atomic plinth]

One of the main plot beats is eldritch gods being unable to have children yet desperately wanting to

You literally eat three umbilical cords of outer gods to get the secret ending

[proven cloak]

The final bosses of the game are "Mergo's Wet Nurse" for ending 1 and "Orphan of Kos" for dlc

[median rock]

and then turn into a small squid baby

so its implied u ate their being-an-outer-god-ness and turned into one

[median rock]

some say kosm...

[atomic plinth]

Grant us eyes, grant us eyesssssssssssssss

[proven cloak]

and you often find these on human women who've had.... complications, with childbirth

[left willow]

I think I need to watch a "story" play through of BB

[atomic plinth]

Should get a PS4 for it, they're pretty cheap these days

[left willow]

Honestly, could probably just steal it from a buddy

[median rock]

to be fair you often find umbilical cords on human women after they have normal childbirths

[left willow]

depends

[median rock]

i would probably say around 99% of the time, in fact

[proven cloak]

yeah but they dont tend to look this, uh

[atomic plinth]

Not often you find the umbilical cords of eldritch beings beyond the ken of mortal comprehension on em though

[proven cloak]

eye(?) covered

[median rock]

no yeah the eyes are new

[median rock]

oh yeah one of those umbilical cords is from mary magdalene: the npc, giving virgin birth in a hospital thats been taken over by a weird cultist alien too <3

[proven cloak]

I liked TBSkyen's blind playthrough, had segments dedicated to analyzing levels and bosses after each episode, and was pretty perceptive
and LastProtagonist did some great stuff with looking at Japanese translations to expand on the story.

[atomic plinth]

Who also killed and replaced the real doctor who was running the hospital

[proven cloak]

she was-

yeah lol

she was the cultist

[median rock]

who, iosefka?

no imposter iosefka killed the real one

[left willow]

Oh boy, this should be really rough. Let's hope I really did process these emotions

[median rock]

id also personally recommend, if you are playing through bloodborne, its worth paying for a month or two of PS plus for the chalice dungeons. i dont believe you can do them w/o online capabilities

theyre not story required but they're proc generated dungeons with loot you can only find in there, including higher tier upgrade materials (not the +x weapon upgrades but like, more akin to damage up talismans)

[left willow]

I mean, I can probably also just... steal that from my buddy

[median rock]

yeah just a heads up if theyre not currently paying for onlien

anyway re elden ring

my kingdom for the ability to turn off the fucking fog in snowfields

[atomic plinth]

Fucking agreed

[left willow]

I understand why it's there. But truly. After the first time navigating through it, it becomes truly tiresome

[median rock]

instead of the directionally challenged mimic tear or somethign give us mini borealis

or in that one catacomb thats on the right side of the snowfields if you hug the wall after entering, instead of whoever is in there (duelist iirc?)

[proven cloak]

(ER relevant, his translations of 'Blood Echoes' as being closer to 'wills of the dead' - and the fact that same "Ishi" appears in the name of the Greater Will - is one of the things that made me look harder at if its a force of law or a force of life)

[left willow]

Especially cause there's enemies with cool stuff in there

[stone cove]

Yeah, i don't like visiblity crumpers

because it mostly turns into "navigate by map"

[median rock]

and unfortunately even on replays

its a white featureless field with some elevation changets

i cant navigate for shit im just pointing myself at ordina and calling it good lol

[atomic plinth]

And Anastasia

For some reason

God she's persistent

[median rock]

no shes the elden ring naked woman with a cleaver

i respect her hustle

though i think she is clothed now

[left willow]

Those wolf archers have cool stuff!

[atomic plinth]

Why'd she have an ancient somber smithing stone too???

[atomic plinth]

Agreed, the chestpiece is peak drip

[left willow]

And I've also literally never seen the dude in the snow that becomes a BEAR

[atomic plinth]

You gotta smack him, then he transforms into a bear

[median rock]

yeah hes great i always want more larval tears

[left willow]

Literally never seen the dude

Cause the snowstorm is so bad and I can't find SHIT in there

[mighty warren]

there's a few mimic enemies actually

[median rock]

damn. ng+4 rykard got fucking hands

[atomic plinth]

And feet

A face too

hehehuehehuehuehueheheeheehuehe

[left willow]

MIYAZAKI!!

[stone cove]

There's a ton ofm imic enemies throughout the game

There's one who turns into a bloody Grafted Scion, to memory

[left willow]

cringe

[mighty warren]

god i fucking love fire knight hilde as a summon

they actively use the fire knight parry sometimes and its so cool to watch some enemies just get fucked because of it

[stone cove]

...Firek nights have a parry?

My mimic needs to learn to fucking parry

side note, i managed to get the timing on thed Horned Greatswrod Warrior's dragging charge attack

and it felt awesome

[mighty warren]

They do! its not a traditional parry, they just raise their sword and block but it will (from what i can tell) always recoil a humanoid enemy (larger ones included) and follow up with a fire attack

it doesnt put them in a critical hit state

er, i should clarify, when i say larger i mean reasonably large

they arent gonna be parrying || radahn||

[stone cove]

Huh, interesting!

[mighty warren]

it will also always recoil you when used on you
it should be noted only the GS variety have said parry

[left willow]

#problemsmagicusersskip

[mighty warren]

I do both so i always win

their parry also isnt a true fuck you, you can trigger it and still have enough time to dodge the followup

The largest ive seen them reliably parry is crucible knights

and watching a cruci knight get stuffed by a parry like this is hilarious

[stone cove]

https://old.reddit.com/r/EldenRingLoreTalk/comments/1ebglyv/melina_is_the_geq_and_the_dlc_further_confirms/

Fun theory stuff!

[warped quest]

i pretty much thought this the moment i saw the frenzied cutscene

[proven cloak]

I've been revisting some of the older theories I made note of to see how they've held up

https://www.tumblr.com/yournextflame

^ this person was cooking

was definitely on some of the right tracks, given the dlc

in particular, real great sigil post (https://www.tumblr.com/yournextflame/691494799908405248/elden-ring-sigils-and-color-theory?source=share) and some buried takes on the demigods writing that imo nailed Miquella / Ranni's characters

[icy creek]

Saw this on the elden ring subreddit. Much as I love the game, this is the last game I would tell people to: "Just play"

[proven cloak]

real and cosigned

[icy creek]

Like, you can, probably will, miss out on literally every questline this way.

[proven cloak]

also real and cosigned

[icy creek]

I would, at the very least, link them to the questlines. You genuinely might not know they're there if you don't read guides.

[proven cloak]

I'd point them in a direction if its a build they want

wouldn't let a wizard leave limgrave without hinting at sellen,

but I think the exploration part of ER is the reason you'd play it over other fromsoft stuff, wouldn't want to take that from my friends

[icy creek]

I genuinely played two thirds of Sekiro not even knowing there were quests. I only found out when I googled: "Sekiro no quests" and found that there were quests you could miss out on.

I wouldn't give them every dungeon but like... at the very least I'd be like: "Look at the quests on a guide and see if any interest you."

[proven cloak]

Its honestly because the quests are so relatively short I guess I don't value them as high as the feeling of finding it for yourself

I missed Boc entirely on my first playthrough, and even then

didn't miss much tbh

[warped quest]

eh some of the quest rewards can be brutal to miss

[icy creek]

I can honestly say I only found out about one questline that I didn't find first on a wiki. Milicent.

[warped quest]

missing out on crab sucks if you lack any sort of magic stat with buffs

[icy creek]

Like, the thought of missing out on the Ranni storyline... damn...

[mighty warren]

Cool, mild jagged peak spoilers?

[proven cloak]

Ranni's def well signposted

most popular ending on launch (probably still tbh)

lots of other quests feed into hers

[icy creek]

Absolutely not lol. You can miss it really easily if you're not an experienced souls-er

[proven cloak]

I might just be used to the other games lol

compared to some of the stuff in ds its so much easier to stumble into npc quests

I did miss out on quite a lot of dlc dialogue the first time

[icy creek]

ITs the easiest questline to find but even then it has like... 15 different failpoints.

[proven cloak]

accidentally walked ||too close to the shadowkeep, past Ymir, and had the charm break real early||

Never hard locks you out though afaik

Most quests give you until Maliketh to actually break

[icy creek]

I decided to do the "I'll just explore the DLC and see what happens" route, knowing all I do about Elden Ring, and even then I still got locked out of most of the questlines.

[mighty warren]

Ill be honest i have no issues suggesting friends to use a guide, or just pester me a fuck ton, for their first run or two, i personally prefer the second cause i can still guide without them getting just spoiled

Even if i find elden ring the most approachable of the souls games, its still not exaclty upfront
granted i still personally think theres no harm in just having a run where you miss shit, ng+ and making multiple characters have to exist for some reason

(beyond challenges i suppose)

Still, better to help than not

Wow i
fucking love this spell

i got to try ancient dragon lightning strike for the first time

Huh, neat description

[warped quest]

the lightning bolt spells are pretty bad for whatever reason

[mighty warren]

Still gonna use it cause i like it.

[mighty warren]

wait hold on does
does this do what i think it does?

[warped quest]

it adds a quick block mechnic yes

[mighty warren]

https://tenor.com/view/wow-meme-gif-25742319

Just when i thought i stopped using shields they pulled me back in

[warped quest]

its strong enough that even on a decent twohander its noticable

what weapo nare you using?

[mighty warren]

Got a few im using, but i typically one hand cause i wanna cast incantations, regardless, fire knight greatsword, milady (granted ill likely swing off of using that a bit) the longhaft death knight axe and ive been contemplating picking up freya's greatsword so i can have another option with flame skewer if i do drop milady

[warped quest]

the longhaft is iextremely fun

[mighty warren]

Oh it 100% is

I also like the actual blinkbolt ash of war, just kinda wish it like
infused the weapon with lightning? something maybe iunno, i know it cant be special attacks for all of em but just something small like that

[warped quest]

the fireknight has wierdly low block stats for a colossal

[mighty warren]

To be fair its generally just super light for a colossal

[warped quest]

ah

[mighty warren]

And a dex focused one

lemme get an image if you havent seen it

[warped quest]

the greatsword in the masalem has inasne block states for a greatsword

its better than the beastman cleaver

[mighty warren]

Solitude, right? yeah i have it
not against it but something about its AOW doesnt click right

[warped quest]

which was noteworthy for being a weapon with good blockstats

[mighty warren]

Also ah thats a shame, freya's cant put on skewer, doesnt have anything thrusting attacks

One day ill find the perfect weapon for me

Mild aside, shoutout to the blacksteel greathammer for having a unique guard counter

[warped quest]

yeah sadly its holy elden ring loves to make the hardest things in the game resistant to it

[mighty warren]

...i feel like i should just stop talking about stuff i find cool

[warped quest]

sorry

[mighty warren]

Its fine, it just

can come across a little overbearing

[warped quest]

I think its neat too just more annoyed at fromsoft is like "here is this cool thing" "now lets make the game resist this cool thing at all times"

[mighty warren]

Ive not actually tried much in the way of curved greatswords, hm.

[warped quest]

i used morgots until i got to the dlc

[kind garden]

they have a really good guard counter animation

that's kind of the standout thing about CGS

otherwise, they're slower than standard greatswords but with a wider-covering moveset

[warped quest]

ive heard the horned one is really good

[kind garden]

I vaguely recall them also having a good Barbaric Roar strong attack combo

[warped quest]

ive heard the magma wyrm one is good

and with the new talisman its even better

[kind garden]

The horned warrior CGS is nuts actually but mostly for having a truly belligerent, fucked up Skill

It’s got similar properties to Storm Caller, which is already a fantastic skill in pvp, but it’s WAY bigger

[warped quest]

and since it has storm its also boosted

[mighty warren]

considering most of my main weapons are colossals i can deal with a slower swing

[warped quest]

by a talisman

[kind garden]

Yeah I did a storm build with Horned Warrior GS as my main weapon and it does not disappoint in terms of ability to engage gank squads in invasions

That and Divine Beast Tornado, which also spanks ganks real good

[mighty warren]

Hm
looking more for pve, i dont like touching pvp
Just really trying to find that just right weapon type at this point

[warped quest]

the great katana is kinda fun

[mighty warren]

Light greatswords felt too well
light for my tastes, was a fun brief stint though
colossal is nice but i find myself being caugt too often due to the slower speed, cept FKGS that thing is nice like that

normal greatswords are
a lil dull at this point

[kind garden]

If you like big weapon but don’t want to go super slow, I recommend Great Piercing Swords

[mighty warren]

thrusting you mean?

[kind garden]

That yes

[mighty warren]

Not a bad suggestion but very ehhh
samey? per swing

mind you the main one i tried was sword lance

[kind garden]

The trick is that they’re REALLY good for fencing with

Like you can just completely dominate most melee combat situations by having a longer reaching weapon and using back steps to control the spacing

I actually don’t recommend Sword Lance because it has a worse moveset than the Great Epee and the Bloody Helice

It’s very specifically a horseback combat weapon

[mighty warren]

I had gotten it with hopes that the greatsword half would actually be used

[kind garden]

Godskin Stitcher also has the good moveset

[mighty warren]

I think ill just try curved greatswords

[mighty warren]

Wait you can put flame skewer on the great katana?
shit man im down

[kind garden]

yea

[mighty warren]

This will do

[warped quest]

the fire knight armor peirces boost flame skewer i think

[mighty warren]

While fair i uh
i prefer my current look through and through

Fashion souls n all that

[warped quest]

yeah thats pretty good

[mighty warren]

Wait thats fucked up and i only now noticed it
its not major bleed build up but this thing still builds up bleed even when i have it alight

[kind garden]

sure does

[mighty warren]

Thats fuckin hilarious

[kind garden]

in general, infusable weapons with built-in bleed can get mad smelly, there's a bunch of gimmicks you can do

the classic is infusing to Occult with an Ash of War that adds a bleed skill

[mighty warren]

This is my first time with it, i think ill stick with flame skewer though

[warped quest]

yeah occult boosts bleed on inate weapons too

[kind garden]

any time a weapon has Arcane scaling, the status buildup it causes will be scaled by that Arcane scaling

There's a whole art to gaming this in order to scale status damage that isn't supposed to be scaled up

[nova smelt]

wait the godslayer greatsword (a weapon heavily associated with the GEQ) is a spiral

oh shit

[kind garden]

The Godslayer seal also depicts the Gate of Divinity

And Godskin apostles have assimilated inhuman physiology in a way that resembles the Crucible

[languid tiger]

oh shit

it does

[kind garden]

wait did I not post about this here

I sometimes forget which chats I've posted lore theory/discussion in

[glossy delta]

(except rot I believe)

[kind garden]

except Rot yes

[languid tiger]

sleep ripple blade moment

[kind garden]

[grave plinth]

I just realized Torrent’s horns might originate from the Crucible

[frozen olive]

well

yeah

most likely

horned animals are crucible shit

[warped quest]

i always thought he was an ox

[frozen olive]

it's mentioned in at least one item

creacher

[grave plinth]

Torrent might actually be some sort of divine beast now that i think about it

[frozen olive]

could be

sorta mid honse, very cute though

[atomic plinth]

This is a pretty funny line when you're a 72 INT, 42 FAI hybrid caster build

"You are a tadpole when it comes to magic" girl I am harnessing cosmic forces and the magics of outer gods

[frozen olive]

fr fr

i have 80 int and 50 fai on my main char

so that is extremely comical to me

not much of a Sellen fan personally

[obtuse halo]

I mean, simply put the game's dialogue isn't tuned for NG+. The dialogue is operating on the fairly safe assumption you're earlygame 😛

but yes it is funny

I am absolutely a Sellen fan

but then again my favorite DLC npc is Leda, so.

[frozen olive]

she bullied Moon Mom so i am obligated to dislike her on principle

Royal Carian simp that i am

[atomic plinth]

We the player bully Moon Mom

Kinda wish some of the dialogue was tuned for NG+ iterations

[golden pond]

walk into ranni's tower with dmgs
"how dost thee have that, the fuck"

[atomic plinth]

Walk in after doing her ending, "Oh hi honey, good to see you again, you wanna help me out one more time?"

[obtuse halo]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/594517610478174219/1266115667484999902/X5qNEuA.jpeg?ex=66a3f99a&is=66a2a81a&hm=a933140a0f924180abfa5534ada01d66a1bf1c1d920c70dad23783165286339b&

unrelated

[frail sky]

I swear, every time I use a great katana I get the urge to start doing monster hunter attack inputs
Just constantly getting the urge to triangle+circle (or I guess Y+B) to reposition and having to stop myself

[gray leaf]

...I think a lot of people are talking about stuff being sealed in the Land of Shadow, but, as I understand it at least... the two lands were originally one, but then, rather than thinking about casting off the Land of Shadow, it might arguably be more meaningful to talk about the Lands Between leaving and the Land of Shadow being what was left behind? Stuff wasn't sent from the one to the other, particularly, or at least not all of the time.

[atomic plinth]

Whu

Holy shit that's a lotta people

[languid tiger]

where's this one?

[frail sky]

Isn’t that a base game area?

[frozen olive]

big

[gray leaf]

please tell me this is real?

[atomic plinth]

Weeping Peninsula, near the merchant

[frail sky]

I believe it is yeah

[languid tiger]

huh

i never fuck around down there

[gray leaf]

He realized he liked creating poison swamps only after making Elden RIng...

[languid tiger]

since there's nothing over there

[warped quest]

i actully don't rememer any really noteable poison swamps in the dlc

[frail sky]

Oh question, does (right before shadow keep spoilers) ||breaking Miquella’s rune lock you out of anything?||

[languid tiger]

yes

||make sure to do all the forager brood before you get that||

||or, specifically, heal the injured one||

||since moore gives you a book for doing that that you can't get once the rune is broken (he disappears)||

[warped quest]

||it doesnt actully lock you out if it you just don't tell more to "Stay sad" or "get over it" saying "i don't know" keeps him from moving||

[languid tiger]

oh whoops

[frail sky]

||I’ll still go forager brood hunting, just to be on the safe side||

[atomic plinth]

There any way to get down into Leyndell from here?

[warped quest]

there is but no idea if it still works

[stone cove]

Fwiw holy is quite good in the dlc. It's not even bad in the final boss fight - the boss actually has 0 holy resist in phase 1, and in phase 2 it's 40... Just like all his other elemental resists!

[stone cove]

There used to be at least a couple of ways. One of the bigger ones is to pop taunters tongue

And get invaded

I cannot remember the other off hand, it involved weird shenanigans

[frail sky]

||Only that one matters right?||

[warped quest]

i think the othres do vanish

[languid tiger]

||i think there's also the moore & thiollier supply stuff, but i'm pretty sure no other quests have important points before then||

[frail sky]

👍

[stone cove]

Wait, what? Do you mean the seal itself, not the sigil that appears when casting? Which appears to be a thumb print identical to Metyrs face

[kind garden]

the seal itself yes

this

[gray leaf]

...speaking of which... is it just me, or is it clear that ||the "black syrup" Thiollier wanted Moore to find was opium||?

[languid tiger]

probably an equivalent, if not

[stone cove]

Well shit, it sure does. Did you see the post I shared earlier about gloam eyed queen? It went over a ton of DLC and how it links to the godskins

[obtuse halo]

this is one of those interesting connections between Those Who Live in Death and The Sea

just dozens upon dozens of zombies gazing wistfully out into the ocean

Another one I think people miss: the description of Helphen's Steeple

The lamplight is similar to grace in appearance, only it is said that it can only be seen by those who met their death in battle.```

is it just me, or does the Helphen sound suspiciously like a Lighthouse?

[atomic plinth]

Aye, that it does

...also, holy shit, the Twin Maidens keep the smithing stone bell-bearings you give them in new game cycles now???

[frail sky]

Yep!

[atomic plinth]

Oh that is such a good QoL change

[obtuse halo]

yeah I tried ng+ for the first time like two days before that patch happened lmao

felt pretty burned

[old brook]

Everyone needs to be pranked by the cosmos at least a few times

[spring marlin]

wish there was more information about the pre-erdtree death cultures

such a fascinating part of the world

[atomic plinth]

Agreed

We got more insight into the Crucible but what about the Seat of the Sun?

Or Eochaid?

[obtuse halo]

There are certainly lots of mysteries remaining

which is a good thing imo

I kind of love when settings don't tie up every loose end, even if it wars with my driving urge to know

[old brook]

The Sun thing feels almost like a DS1 ref

[spring marlin]

there are massive gaps like GEQ or the big ol' skeletons in nox cities even after the dlc, and i think that's okay

wish there were answers to everything, but i'm at peace with where it's at

can't be gideon ofnir

[atomic plinth]

...buddy, you're really fucking terrible at hiding

[obtuse halo]

meanwhile boc is actively calling out for help and people still don't find him

[modest berry]

more potential but tenuous radagon crucible connection, the horned rune bears are all red of hair

a crucible is also a cup that you burn things in, fire giants confirmed? ?? ? ( almost certainly not)

[atomic plinth]

...where the hell did all these come from, good god

[stone cove]

There's always a ton of blood stains in leyndeell on the way to the sewers

and it is never not funny as hell

[proven cloak]

I had a crack theory that Eochaid was always crucible related

the regalia is called 'copper' in english, but uses the same kanji as the Crucible Knights 'red-gold' in japanese

and both Eochaid and Crucible Knight weapon arts involve levitating the weapon and then making it spin like crazy

before the dlc I just though it was a property of primal gold, that you could move it with will

theres also whatever's going on with the Sun in Enir-Illm

[atomic plinth]

Y'all know any good rune farms that aren't at Moghwyn?

I'd just pop by there and plink at the dumbass bird but I wanna get the cool dragon communion eyes and me going there early would override that with the comparatively more boring red eyes

...unless Varre drops the thing to teleport there...

Nope

Fuck

[warped quest]

death root temple

the little guys

if you have a strong enough weapon you can kill them with a backstab or a single combo

and they are isolated enough you can tak ethem 1v1

even in early game with like +2-3 weapon you can kill them in a single combo if the weapo can poise break them

for 1k souls each

probally more in ng+

[atomic plinth]

The militiamen near Gurranq's place?

[warped quest]

yeah

[atomic plinth]

Figured they'd drop less, I'll look into it

Thanks Fox

[warped quest]

they are the best farm i know pre mohg

i guess if you have strong enough magic to oneshot them

its even better cause you can just run around on torrenet killing them

[obtuse halo]

yeah on bow-only I got a fair bit of mileage out of the "dagger is okay but only for criticals" rule backstabbing those to buy arrows in the earlygame

[modest berry]

trolls near warmaster shack are pretty easily killed and also are 1k per and early area so way less scaled

[warped quest]

trolls have more health genenally the milicha can be easily comboed into a crit

and theres about 20 of them

[obtuse halo]

yeah I just snuck up on them and oneshot them with misericorde

[atomic plinth]

Cool dragon eyes obtained baybee

[mellow silo]

There's the one ball over at Lenne's rise that nets you 2k each run, with the runs being about 30 seconds each

It's not the best, but pretty early game and easy to pull off

[atomic plinth]

You can't swap around the eye alterations, can you?

[obtuse halo]

No it’s binary and the highest priority one covers the others

On my snake cosplay invader character i ate hearts for the ophidian eyes and specifically did not do Varre’s quest

[atomic plinth]

And I assume the priority list is Dragon > Blood Knight > Frenzied Flame?

[obtuse halo]

Correct

[atomic plinth]

Ugh

So it's either I lose out on cool dragon eyes and get to the DLC reasonably early or wait until nearly the end of this playthrough to access it

...eh, granted, it prolly won't take too long to get to the Consecrated Snowfield

[stone cove]

I was gona so "So, the dlc is really good!"

then i read your post more.

[warped quest]

i noticed the dlc enemies give less than mog's domain for a good chunk of it

[atomic plinth]

If I invade someone in Liurnia or someplace, I won't be invading some low level first playthrough fella, will I?

[gray leaf]

Hey. Question: At the very start of the game (or if you return later), if you beat the Grafted Scion and go past it, there's a little ledge with some butterflies. If you walk out there, the ledge collapses, dropping you to your doom so you can get the introductory cutscene. Here's my question: what kind of butterflies were those? Do the different types have different overworld sprites?

[atomic plinth]

Look like nascent butterflies

[gray leaf]

Huh. If they were smouldering, that'd be interesting, because (as shown by Malenia) the butterflies seem to actually be directly connected to the Empyreans, drawn to their powers, and possibly at least indirectly controlled by them. But if it's nascent... then what does that mean?

[mighty warren]

I believe invasions go off rune level?

could be wrong

[proven cloak]

I think Malenia's might be a special case, since butterflies are also more specifically connected to the Rot

[gray leaf]

Also true.

[proven cloak]

its why ||Romina also seems to have adopted them, post Messmer's crusade||

[gray leaf]

I just thought that the black butterflies were drawn to specifically Messmer's fire rather than just butterflies destruction (important typo fix), but I might be misremembering.

[proven cloak]

oh, they were

they're found in places scoured by his flame

[gray leaf]

...I also wonder, out of nowhere: ||does being an Empyrean actually inherently mean anything? Or is it just a synonym for "person chosen by the Two Fingers" and there isn't any inherent meaning to it?|| I kind of flip back and forth.

[proven cloak]

I lean more towards the former

||Ansbach talks about Miquella's eye as proof of his Empyrean lineage, curse-twins are both Empyreans by birthright, Ranni discarded her flesh for a reason that seems more Empyrean related than Finger related, etc||

though it could be that many born Empyreans are not recognized as such, by the fingers

[gray leaf]

I keep thinking that, but then not being 100% sure?

Here's a wild idea with no evidence which I just want to toss out: what if ||the Formless Mother dwelled within Miquella's eye||? I don't think this is at all the case, but it'd sure be interesting!

[languid tiger]

nah, not enough bluuuud

[gray leaf]

Yeah, there's many reasons it doesn't make sense!

[proven cloak]

its also the case that no matter how many runes we gather, we can't be a vessel for the Elden Ring in any ending

[gray leaf]

True! The idea of an Empyrean being a "suitable vessel" for all sorts of assorted stuff... makes sense.

[proven cloak]

while all the Empyreans seem able to ascend to legitimate godhood

I wonder what the difference between that and the shaman stuff is, or if there is any

[languid tiger]

foul tarnished

i'm fucking balling

[proven cloak]

the Numen / Shaman got a lot of spiritual connections, its not just meat-melding

[languid tiger]

it's also specifically miko, remember

with all the connotations of that

[proven cloak]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/342078637413236737/1262906034566205471/3fs8nki4txcd1.png?ex=66a429e6&is=66a2d866&hm=957ab78c6e919e566b045dd15d651447ccd714cafdb37d68673474e6d537ed2f&

fuck this is the soccer one

I mean its still a ball

[gray leaf]

Although, it's possible that "able to serve as a suitable vessel for Outer Gods" and "able to become a god" are two separate, unrelated things, and at most one of them is related to being an Empyrean. They talk about Malenia becoming a god, though, but I'm not sure if she'd become a god, or become the Scarlet Rot (which is a god)?

Though that was from before we fully understood those distinctions. I... think that being a vessel for an Outer God isn't inherently connected to Empyreans, just strongly connected. I mean, we see other vessels, though the combinations seem to be less... smooth (see the Fire Giant and ||Romina||).

[proven cloak]

tbh I think the community as a whole punts too many of the divinities into the Outer God category

[atomic plinth]

Wish I could do something with these extra seeds

At this point I have enough to start a damn arboretum

[proven cloak]

assuming Empyreans need an Outer God to ascend to godhood doesn't seem to be the case, as ||Only Malenia is connected to a force that is confirmed to be an Outer God, and it seems unlikely the Greater Will is in the same class of being||

||Miquella also embraces no divinity besides 'pure' gold||

[languid tiger]

only Outer Gods we're 100% sure on are the Rot, the Formless Mother, whichever one is related to verdigris, and uhhh

god, what's the last?

[proven cloak]

Twinbird's Mother's God

or I guess just Twinbird's God

[languid tiger]

right yeah

[proven cloak]

Frenzy is heavily implied through the needle

[languid tiger]

the mother of the deathbirds

and the frenzied flame

but frenzy isn't 100%

it's like

80%

[proven cloak]

Its like in the same ballpark but with a *

[gray leaf]

Yeah. Outer God might be a very general catch-all term, or a very specific term. Frenzy's also a bit of a weird edge case.

[languid tiger]

okay yeah 90%

[proven cloak]

the dlc seems to underline the 'twisted' nature of Outer Gods

[stone cove]

That's not really true.

Basic ghost guys give very little, but Messmer's soliders give a lot more, big ghosts give a ton, hroned warriors are 6k etc

so rapidly you get a shit ton of runes vomited on you

[proven cloak]

things created from trauma and suffering

or found in trauma and suffering

[gray leaf]

Created from, or called by, or drawn to? It's unclear if they're created from it, or, in some twisted way, sympathetic. Or even if they're only visible to those in pain, though that's the least likely interpretation, I think.

[languid tiger]

we don't know that, yeah

since the Deathbirds' god has like

0% information

[proven cloak]

there are nicer elements to some of them

The forager brood's cooking and (probably) Verdigris seem to relate to Rot

[gray leaf]

Well, those are the followers of the Rot.

[languid tiger]

verdigris might be Rot

but i don't want to say 100%

[proven cloak]

but its a healthier relationship to it

[languid tiger]

it's another heavy implication

[gray leaf]

Is the Rot itself sympathetic? For that matter, is it enough like a person that ascribing personality traits to it even makes sense?

[proven cloak]

to the second, probably not

its why I never liked the "Gods fighting over the Elden Ring" take that got popular - mostly it seems like the gods embody concepts, and their followers have the ambitions

[languid tiger]

yeah, gods seem to more like

emanate

[proven cloak]

I don't think Rot wants to rule, I think it just... Rots

[languid tiger]

and be reflected in that emanation by people that they can "be"

or by people that can make them something

[gray leaf]

What about the Formless Mother? Intuitively, having a name like that seems to imply personhood, but, honestly, I don't think there's any substantive difference from the Rot in that regard.

[languid tiger]

but that always reflects them

formless be formless

[proven cloak]

it is said the Formless Mother desires to be wounded

[languid tiger]

but the Mother of Truth seems to be like

[proven cloak]

and 'craves' wounds

[languid tiger]

more an emanation of desire

[proven cloak]

whatever that means

[languid tiger]

the desire for blood

the desire to share blood

[proven cloak]

I took it as- yeah

lineage based

[languid tiger]

the desire to take wounds

[proven cloak]

a mother's love, but a little wrong

pain bringing people together

Mohg's spear is also an instrument of communion, or in japanese, 'telecommunication' with the Formless Mother

[languid tiger]

Weapon used by the bloodfiends. Three tines of carved bone spear the victim to provoke blood loss. A ritual implement for blood offerings to the Formless Mother. At times, the bloodfiends will spill even their own blood using these forks.

Long ago, a subjugated tribe discovered a twisted deity amongst the ravages of war, and they were transformed into bloodfiends. The mother of truth was their savior.```

The blood is said to have fallen from the Formless Mother's wound. Never will it dry, never will it rot.

very interesting DLC content

"amongst the ravages of war"

and she seems to have a wound

[gray leaf]

Thus far, honestly, we could argue that all of the two confirmed outer god are in some way associated with life? It would help if we knew more about Miquella!

[languid tiger]

one, but only one, already

[proven cloak]

this was one of the levels I was at

[gray leaf]

||Is there a specific cross where he gives up his eye, and if so, where was it?||

[proven cloak]

||Scaduview, iirc||

||Its on a hill||

[gray leaf]

||No signs of anything dramatic or interesting near it, or right next to it?|| It'd be really convenient if there was...

[proven cloak]

Birth and wounds, death in some manner, decay and rebirth, flame of frenzy

[languid tiger]

oh right, the talisman
A talisman engraved with the lore of an outer god. Raises arcane. The clan, who lost everything in the great fires, peered upon the corpse of their ancestor, normally an act of sanctity, and saw in its shadow a twisted deity. The clan had suffered such torment that the horrible thing was taken as an object of worship.

[gray leaf]

Rot is decay. That's entirely and completely life. It grows from the dead, but, as the phrase goes, decay is an extant form of life.

[languid tiger]

the corpose of their ancestor

[proven cloak]

its like, right on top of Bonny Gaol, I guess?

kind of close to the fort of Reprimand?

didnt notice that in game, though

its kind of the only interesting thing up there - but there is a gorgeous view of the tree

its the highest point in the area, I think

[proven cloak]

mhm

and the formless mother is related to lineage, or 'cursed blood'

[gray leaf]

Ancestor worship seems... normal, at least relatively speaking. The outer god interceded in that. Consider ||Grandmother, in the Shaman Village... was she always a tree, actually? It's unclear, I suddenly realize... but either way, that's almost certainly ancestor worship||.

Also, isn't it interesting that the "ancestor statues" which hold Revered Spirit Ash have also all lost their heads? I understand why the Marika statues were so systematically defiled, but not why the ancestors were.

[proven cloak]

||The erdtree itself seems to be a world-scale version of Shaman burial practices||

||Honored burials to merge with a tree||

[gray leaf]

||...that had literally never occurred to me but you might be right. I was thinking of the cremation + ash-raking stuff. Or as Grandmother as being enshrined rather than just buried.||

[proven cloak]

||I like it because it really underlines how Marika started out human||

[gray leaf]

||But there's also the arboreal corpse which teaches you "Oh Mother", and I think other trees have faces poking out of them?||

||What did the hornsent do with their dead, actually? ...and are the corpses hanging from the trees human, or hornsent?||

[proven cloak]

||The giant tree wasn't a cosmological truth, it wasn't a decree from distant aliens or a parasite, it was literally the culture she grew up with, mirrored to an unimaginable scale||

[proven cloak]

oh ||Enir-Illm also has a ton of golden tree people||

[gray leaf]

||It does, and a ton of people merged into the pillars that physically make it up (to say nothing of the Gates of Divinity).||

[proven cloak]

theres the deathbird golems all around

so probably deathflame?

the giant coffins on the coast are some sort of burial, theres the tree-shrines, spirit ash and ghostflame

might've just been many ways, depending on culture

[gray leaf]

I was just thinking about how... actually, no matter what you do with your dead, impalement would pretty thoroghly count as defilement. So would hanging from trees, but that might have different meanings when your burial customs have specific thoughts about trees (and, specifically, their roots).

[proven cloak]

I don't think hornsent is a different species to human, tbh

Just a quirk caused by the mutation of crucible energies

[gray leaf]

||...the tree people are saints. That's what's going on. That's the natural process of reincarnation: you become a saint when you have an admixture of different forms of life. That's why the jar saints were ever even supposed to work.||

[gray leaf]

I thought there was a quote from Leda along the lines of "Man is, by nature, a race of conquest. And in this regard the hornsent are no different." I might be misremembering, but that's why I was drawing the distinction.

[proven cloak]

I forgot that quote but even then I feel like it underlines it

Man is a creature of conquest, and the Hornsent [as man] follow suite

[gray leaf]

I thought it was "Man is a creature of conquest, and so are the Hornsent [implicitly a separate group]" but the same sentence definitely supports both readings.

When you're looking at anything so close to the Crucible, honestly, "species" is more of a political affiliation than anything else.

[proven cloak]

theres some ghost in the manse who asks the inquisitors why they're attacking with the phrase 'are we not common in our line'

so I just assumed it was like

Hornsent are the people, but horns aren't necessary

Midra doesn't seem to have them

[proven cloak]

yeah

thats why I'm like "I dont think its a hard line between hornsent and human"

now

the real lore bombshell people aren't ready for

[kind garden]

hornsent aren't a different species, lmao

they're just people born with horns

It's not even genetic, because of how the Crucible works it's just luck-based

[proven cloak]

Hornsent Grandam, Midra, Hornsent - what do all these characters have in common?

[gray leaf]

Yeah, although there's hornsent without horns, presumably? Unless they're slaves? I think they're at the very least a nationality, of both those with horns and those who don't have horns but still hold them as sacred? Unless only the first group count???

[proven cloak]

• Irish Accent
• From the Land of Shadows

wheres Marika from?

the implications are obvious.....

[kind garden]

less a nationality, more an ethnoreligious group

[gray leaf]

Speaking of which, did we ever clear up ||whether the Hornsent Grandam is an Empyrean or not||?

[proven cloak]

tbh even the idea of Elden Ring as having 'genetics' can't be taken for granted

[kind garden]

"hornsent" without a capital H refers to people who follow the religious belief that having horns makes you sacred, and we see that there are in fact plenty of hornsent who have none horns and are basically peasants

[proven cloak]

its got all sorts of twists on the cosmology, like stars as living or remnants of life

[gray leaf]

The crucible talking about "all life being one", as I understand it, talks about a time before the concept of "species" existed.

[proven cloak]

it could be that instead of DNA they have the crucible

[gray leaf]

...which, it should be noted, does have the shape of a double helix.

[kind garden]

I mean, yeah

you want to really post about double-helices

look at the Scadutree itself

it's a stalk wrapping around and choking another, straighter stalk that I posit is what "the Crucible" refers to in terms of a physical structure - the one tree that Siluria's Tree is based on

[glossy delta]

Yeah, the twisting crucible current growing and growing to a tower to the gods does read very much like fantasy DNA/evolution

[proven cloak]

the age of the Scadutree isn't as clear, but I dont think it predates Marika's ascension - or the Erdtree

[gray leaf]

I'm still not sure if the Scadutree is really both of those, or if it's secretly only one, and the other one is some newer thing.

[kind garden]

the other/newer one is the Scadutree

the original is the Crucible stalk

The primordial form of the Erdtree is close in nature to life itself, and this spear, modeled on its crucible, is imbued with ancient holy essence.

[gray leaf]

There's... also been arguments that it predates the current Erdtree but it was the original Erdtree and the current one is a fake? This is plausible, but very unclear.

[proven cloak]

I'd believe it more readily if Enir-Illm had any tree symbolism that wasn't the double-twinned ones they grow

[proven cloak]

all the Scadutree faith items we find relate to the crusaders, more than the hornsent

[trail sail]

I do think, at the very least, that it's very interesting the Scadutree has far more physicality to it than the Erdtree

[proven cloak]

though theres some evidence the Hornsent followed the Erdtree, until Marika 'betrayed' them

[proven cloak]

does it?!?

[kind garden]

I mean yeah

[trail sail]

I mean, yes

[kind garden]

we hold physical fragments of it

[proven cloak]

The Erdtree is made of wood tinged with gold

the Shadowtree has that rolling mass of shadow over it

[trail sail]

The Erdtree is visibly ethereal and otherworldly - the Scadutree clearly has more of an anchored form

[kind garden]

you can see through the golden trunk of the erdtree though

[gray leaf]

Also, the Scadutree very prominently and visibly weeps sap, and the Erdtree apparently used to do that, but doesn't anymore.

[trail sail]

There is, believably, an Actual Huge Ass Tree there

[potent perch]

I think the shadows do help to make it look more solid in form. the erdtree's golden glow makes it look like it's only half there

[kind garden]

oh also

the giant root structures in Deeproot Depths

those connect back to the Scadutree and the stalk it's wrapped around, no?

[trail sail]

In the typical presentation of shadow and light, those two aspects are reversed

[fleet bronze]

I think the Scadu and Erd trees were originally intertwined and the creation/shunting of the Land of Shadow in to it's pocket dimension split the two of them

[trail sail]

It'd be the shadow that's ghostly and ephemeral

[proven cloak]

Its branches fall onto leyndell once its burned, though

theres something up there

[kind garden]

oh there's something up there but it's like

only half-real

screwy ass illusion magic tree

[proven cloak]

about the best screenshot I had the shadowtree

but theres definitely Something Funky going on with its physicality

maybe its the way it flows, while the Erdtree stays 'solid' that tricks me

[proven cloak]

I just think those of the roots of the Erdtree, broken by the shattering

though the trees might share a root network, they seem kind of inseperable

[proven cloak]

idk they both seem very physical to me

[proven cloak]

its interesting that the Scadutree is said to be brittle and twisted because its not born of Order

[atomic marsh]

The Scadutree definitely has shadows on it

hence the name

[proven cloak]

lore implications?!?!?

[gray leaf]

There's been whole examinations and stuff about how some of it looks like solid wood, but then, further up, it looks a bit more ethereal maybe?

[proven cloak]

ehhhhhh, it just seems like a reach

real branches fall onto leyndell, the Erdtree roots Godwyn's buried in don't have its gold, the endings show a similarly solid tree as they zoom out / power climbs the trunk

(I think its honestly rendering limitations)

[proven cloak]

I've been thinking a lot about how Gold and Shadow tie together

especially with Elden Beast concept art in mind

much darker than what we got in game, with the same sort of liquid effect on top

though even in the game

its got the same shadow-effect

so, who knows

maybe Gold and Shadow were supposed to be together and Marika split them

maybe it just looks cool

[gray leaf]

TIL that ||not only is the Dancing Lion's music tied to the weather, you can actually pay attention to the music to predict a form change.||

[trail sail]

I honestly think SotE's soundtrack should take home an award of some kind

Fucking stellar all around

[gray leaf]

Honestly, it's arguably a further discussion on on ||gods dwelling within a mortal frame, willingly or not, intentionally or not. The important thing is a prepared vessel. And the Dancing Lion is a vessel made up by two people in a ritual performance, but nevertheless is a single beast in a single vessel.||

[atomic plinth]

Wish all the jellyfish looked like this ngl, this is way nicer looking than their base appearance

[gray leaf]

...have you seen the ones with golden eyes ever?

[atomic plinth]

Whar

They can have gold eyes?

[gray leaf]

Yes! Four of them, spaced equally around the bell. (Or possibly within, and shining through.)

Also apparently on NG+1 and higher you can run freely through liquids?

(unless that was changed)

[languid tiger]

?

"run freely through liquids"?

[gray leaf]

As in, they don't slow you down/stop you from rolling. According to an old video, at least. Also according to said video, the Wing of Astel gets stronger in certain locations, and I'm oddly curious whether any of those locations are in the DLC or not. (It also deals bonus damage to gravity enemies, meaning fallingstar beasts and Alabaster/Onyx Lords, basically.)

[languid tiger]

I don't think any of that is true

other than the gravity enemies bit

gravitic stuff being strong against itself is accurate

[gray leaf]

The wing part... apparently it actively looks and sounds different in very specific locations.

[languid tiger]

but I've heard nothing and seen nothing to indicate the player moving unimpeded in the specific Fatroll Liquids in ng+

[gray leaf]

I saw one clip of it but it might have been a bug. The Wing of Astel, though... I forgot all the locations, but there was clips of it being blue and crackly in one of the mines (I think one of the ones with an Astel in it) on the heavy attack?

[languid tiger]

the ash of war interacts physically with walls, but just as like

a physics property

I've never heard of it changing looks anywhere

[gray leaf]

https://youtu.be/vtD_fU_XN3g?t=654 this is what I'm watching

(timestamped to the relevant point)

[languid tiger]

vaati probably got it off of a 4chan modding board or something

[gray leaf]

There's footage of it, but... it's possible, yeah...

[languid tiger]

because vaati does that

he just summarizes things without fact-checking

wouldn't be shocked if it was a real thing, but in like

Convergence

and that heavy attack didn't look any different from normal

the charged r2 just has a sword beam

[gray leaf]

I didn't know it always glowed quite like that.

[languid tiger]

always

and it didn't look to be glowing except when it was mid-r2

[gray leaf]

fair. I have officially been Misled.

[languid tiger]

vaati does that often

and is well-respected in the community despite that

so listening to someone that's erroneously but widely considered an authority is understandable

[gray leaf]

Most of the listed stuff is clearly cited and sourced, though not universally.

[left willow]

[Jagged Peaks]
||Hi, mr. Bayle? Yeah, could you go fuck yourself? I just wanna be able to summon my buddy without eating a whole combo to my GORRAM FACE!!||

[gray leaf]

Hang on. This is part of the description of an actual base game item:

A ritual implement for transforming into a Deathbird, if only by imitation.
(It's the Raptor's Black Feathers chest piece.) My point is that ||tranforming into a divine figure by imitating one isn't a new thing for the Dancing Lion; that's just the most overt instance.||

The corresponding mask says that it "...relentlessly digs into the wearer's face, preserving one's human instincts while dressed in imitation of the Deathbirds." Implying such a thing is necessary.

[left willow]

||It'd also be nice if you could stop fucking off to the far side of the arena every other combo||

[languid tiger]

that's quite an interesting return, considering dlc info!

good catch

[gray leaf]

Just one of those things I randomly ran into which seems to have taken on new relevance.

...I should sleep now, though, or else I'd look for more.

[left willow]

Anything people recommend against this jerk?

[gray leaf]

...okay yeah the corresponding Raptor Claws weapon, and the Claw Talisman, don't have anything interesting to say.

[languid tiger]

sorry, no

I haven't had a ton of trouble with bayle

||with or without igon||

||obviously easier with, since he's a (near?)-immortal summon that doesn't boost the boss's stats||

but I can't really offer any useful tips for the fight

[trail sail]

The great katana you get on the way in to Jagged Peak does serious numbers against him

[left willow]

wait.... how do I get ||igon|| for the fight?

oh, apparently I got triggered new lines somewhere in here

[languid tiger]

oh, sorry, this one's breached containment super hard

thought it was mostly common knowledge now

[obtuse halo]

For that fight i kinda just melted it with shard spiral the first time and first tried it bow-only the second

For melee, uhhhh, probably try the super special dragon hunting katana?

[left willow]

I noticed he doesn't like SS, but he keeps executing a combo and then just.... leaping away, which puts him on the edge of or out of effective SS range

[languid tiger]

I just beat it to death with my greataxe

[obtuse halo]

It’s a really cool fight but not one of the ones i found brutally hard

[languid tiger]

and then second run was really smooth with ice lightning and ordovis's sword

[obtuse halo]

Oh if you’re a sorcerer try rings of spectral light

The damage is nothing to write home about but the range and tracking are incredible

[languid tiger]

only done him three times, and third I had the most trouble by trying to do him with a fire hammer

it took a while

still haven't seen what the speshul dragon katana does

[obtuse halo]

Damage

Lots of it

[languid tiger]

ah, no storm ruler stuff?

just gets ++++damage?

[obtuse halo]

It does big damage but nothing so fancy no

[left willow]

is he doing more lightning or more fire on his elemental attacks?

[languid tiger]

bit more lightning iirc

I think there are a couple pure lightning attacks

but all the flame lightning is like 50/50 afaik

[obtuse halo]

As far as i could tell it was basically equal

[atomic plinth]

Hmmmmg, wife :]

...god I forgot how much Seluvis makes me wanna Comet him in his stupid creep face

Unfortunately, I desire the Dung Eater ashes

Comet will have to wait I suppose

Speaking of NPCs related to Ranni, I wish Adula was a proper NPC and not a boss fight

Feels like it'd make sense

[stone cove]

The dragons get done very dirtyy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzgYLPeyJ08 Stream time

[median rock]

thats true for lava and iirc lava only

u really notice it in volcano manor and gelmir hero grave, both of which incentivize a dagger w quickstep or just backstepping on NG but you can just run around in fine during NG+

I believe fatroll liquids such as poison spray from enemies is unaffected, as is lava that has dmg ticks that deal poise/stagger dmg (like most enemy lava spit where it will interrupt attacks you do)

im 95% sure the astel thing is based on reality but exaggerated - but there used to be/is a bug with wing of astel where it makes a different noise on either r2 or skill or both when used inside the arena for either void astel or normal astel

i think the common guess its is loading the wrong assets or something. i think ive heard that it changed the animation too without buffing numbers but idk ive never confirmed that

[left willow]

Do status-effect greases scale with arcane?

[modest berry]

afaik yes but only on weapons with arc scaling

Shamelessly pulled from a reddit thread so take it it with a grain of salt, but For poison/bleed/sleep, the maximum scaling bonus to buildup is based on the arcane scaling of the weapon:

S = over 175% of base buildup

A = 140% - 175% base buildup

B = 90% - 140% base buildup

C = 60% - 90% of base damage

D = 25% - 60% of base buildup

E = less than 25% of base buildup

Your arcane score determines how much of this bonus you actually get:

25 arc = 10% of maximum bonus

45 arc = 75% of maximum bonus

60 arc = 90% of maximum bonus

99 arc = 100% of maximum bonus

[left willow]

thanks

[mighty warren]

ANOTHER BAYLE FIGHT TO THE PILE

GIVE IT UP FOR 22

[mighty warren]

it's all fucking bayle

[grave plinth]

CURSE YOU BAYLE!

[left willow]

I did get Bayle

Took me 4 fights (after figuring out where Igon's sign was)

But I did it

[mighty warren]

I keep getting summoned for him
i swear i'm starting to forget other bosses

[frozen olive]

We do a little bit of cursing

[frail sky]

It used to be a thing but it was patched out

[stone cove]

Amusignly, i found out another reason in the "Vaati and fextra sucks" thing, which is a: Fextra appears to be stealing builds from others, and vatti apparently has ak nown plagrisim issue (Or did)

Internetcommunites: tehey suuuuck

[mighty warren]

Mm
i wanna use the black steel twinblade but infusing it with anything but holy is annoying

[warped quest]

flame art

[mighty warren]

I mean ill use flame art but it still gets 3 way damage

[warped quest]

oh didnt notice the inate holy damage

[mighty warren]

Yeah thats why im hung up
either i go holy or im splitting my damage way too hard

[warped quest]

split damage might be fine in this case

[mighty warren]

How come?

[warped quest]

ive heard split damage isnt bad in this game, and under flame art/holy it makes ot focus on one stat more so a heavy faith build benefits more

[mighty warren]

Hm, fair
might give it a go, dunno
like said still just sorta feeling around for weapons

[warped quest]

i know sworwd of night and flame was considerd broken levels strong at release and its a split damage weapon

[mighty warren]

Ah wait dex is gonna fuck me over on this one, blegh

[warped quest]

whats your stats

[mighty warren]

Str/faith focus