#Winter Scar Combat 1 LL6 Playtest

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hazy bloom
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I wanted data on the map and the encounter, so I decided to run through it, with the decision to run it at LL6 to see more combos with some of the playtest frames.

So the main thing that's worth noting is, outside of adding optionals on npcs and making them tier 2, i didn't add templates or npcs to this encounter, I probably should have and that was def on me, as players ran through this pretty well, as a result it was a bit less challenging than it probably should have been, but I think it still yielded interesting data, I also asked players to play like they had other fights after this one.

Map wise, players mentioned it being alright, there was some talk about the cover being hard to use on the beach but I think that's probably a good way to make sure players have to move up and also avoid it, as it serves as a way to divide lanes on the map a bit more.

Frames is where as a GM, I have a fair bit more to say, this playtest featured only 2 frames in playtesting: Lycan and Gilgamesh

I wanna start with Lycan first

Lycan

So, in this encounter, the Lycan never got to use their integrated Sheavy and core power, nor a lot of its traits, this was mostly due to me controlling it with bombard shots and Seeder mines, this lead to them managing to kill a weakened goliath.
I think, while this wasn't necessarily a best showcase of the Lycan at its peak, this was a good way to see how it performs on maps and compositions that can somewhat control it, grand scheme of things I don't know if we saw anything downright problematic with it today as much as we witnessed a core weakness of the frame come into focus more, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it bears reiterating: the Lycan def struggles against control and when it lacks movement options.

Gilgamesh

So I think with this fight, we had the opposite of the Lycan, the Gilgamesh absolutely thrived at picking off foes, Ash and Gold decided to go for a crackshot build with the Legionnaire.
Something that came up was that Gilgamesh was maybe a bit too good at having redundancies to be reliable, namely it was the combination of having the core passive and the possibility to use the core active if that wasn't enough later in a fight, even if it comes at the cost of a core power, if I had to point to any specific one, I would say that funnily enough it would probably be the condition clear that's the most impactful rather than the health or the weapon/system destruction, as it allows the Gilgamesh to essentially no sell a condition meant to impair it and force to play slightly differently.
Here it was impaired, as I attempted to hinder its plans of crackshotting, but I think it could easily be too much with other conditions, as a lot of the nastier ones are often gated behind a save or some tough to land attack, I think at the very least having conditon clear on both the core power and the free action is what is proving to be too much.
Beyond this, the Legionnaire Battle Rifle came into focus, it was quite strong and I think what made it shine was it combined with the condition clear, meaning there was reasonably nothing that could be done against the Gilgamesh that decided to have a big turn deleting things, it was going to happen regardless.
I think the rifle is part of that equation, I don't know if it is the whole picture, I think my main feeling on it probably has more to do with its interaction with Crackshot, as it is a natural combo, I think every time i've seen it used in this playtest it was for accuracy and denying cover, which also worked well with the Loadout die.
I think broadly, that would probably be the main angle to look at it from, as especially on a gilgamesh, it had a few charges left even after a first fight where stuff was used relatively freely

lyric crag
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Okay, this is some interesting feedback, thanks

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The bit about the Gilgamesh and conditions is a particularly interesting one, and one that hasn't come up as frequently compared to things like shrugging off damage

hazy bloom
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way I see it, shrugging off damage isn't really all that different from allowing a Balor to say, take 2 turns

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But condition clear is def where a lot of the meanness of some lancer npcs lies

lyric crag
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Yeah that's a very pertinent observation

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I think if it's an issue somewhere I would probably zero in on the core passive rather than the core active

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imo a 1/mission core active is the realm of "it's okay for this to be a little wild"

ornate oracle
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The way I put it in post-game feedback is that no matter what Eld did - reposition me, impair me, etc. - I was playing to my tempo, not the GM's

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The Gilgamesh puts a big array of tools in front of you and says "that game-making play? You will make it"

lyric crag
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If making it more vulnerable to the application of conditions is an element of that then it's one I can look at

ornate oracle
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Potentially, but I also think that's its identity

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The Everest does More Everything, the Gilgamesh does Everything - if that makes any sense

lyric crag
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It doesn't, sorry

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Eld's issue as noted is that he found it hard to apply control effects to the Gilgamesh and I'm going to look at some adjustments in that regard

ornate oracle
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The Everest throws more actions at a problem, the Gilgamesh takes an action that you want to do and makes sure it happens

lyric crag
ornate oracle
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Yeah, I'm just trying to explain where some of the distinctness in how I perceive its identity comes from - I agree it needs changes

lyric crag
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Okay, and as I said, I'm going to look at making some

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Eld's feedback on this is fairly specific and I can see the issues he's outlining and where certain elements of the gilgamesh are contributing to that, so that's where I'm going to look at making adjustments

ornate oracle
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Fair enough. I don't think you and I are actually disagreeing at all, to be clear.

hazy bloom
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I do think if it keeps it on the core power, that would still be part of the identity somewhat

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I think "conditions don't matter on me once every fight" is probably what may push into being too reliable to ever really counter

lyric crag
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impairs, slows, immobilizes, etc

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so if the crux of the matter lies with, essentially, that element feeling as though it's being too easily stifled for too little cost, then that's a helpful and specific avenue for me to drill down into

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I don't think we're really disagreeing either tbh

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I'm just sort of explaining that, like, this feels like a very specifically and clearly outlined issue and one I can address in a targeted fashion

ornate oracle
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Alright, good to know.

weak moth
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Hey, just to specify because I feel like I've had relevant experience here, I'm adding in that I also had the same experience with the Legionnaire Battle rifle, but on a different frame.

The Frame I used was an Everest, but I've also used the LBR on a Metalmark.

What I used was GM1, to make sure that the legionnaire battle rifle always had enough repairs to be topped up (Which turned out that I actually didnt need as much, but was there). I then proceeded to find that I could, most of the time, ignore what the GM wanted to do to me with regards to accuracy and hitting due to the Reliable being saved up.

I didn't have to actually use the +Accuracy on charges as much, although it was helpful to ignore inaccuracy at times, at the most needing to use only one of the charges, which contributed to keeping enough charges to ignore the GM when wanted. In my current case, it was that the GM put me down with impaired, and engaged me as a target, giving me -2 Inaccuracy.

I proceeded to make it neutral with Crack Shot and an accuracy from the Everest's hyperspec, but I didn't need to. I could have gained an accuracy from lock on, from a leadership friend, etc. I then spent an extra charge and wiped out the first target that was engaging me, and then proceeded to wipe out the second target at neutral. When the second target didn't die, I had an extra action because the LBR is a heavy, so I overcharged, dunked reliable into it, and killed the target.

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The GM was not able to engage me for the Scene 2 again because of the other players doing other things, but it was basically like that for Scene 1 and 2 without setup where I was always able to 'make the play' with the LBR.

I've also used the LBR before at higher levels, and it got worse for the GM, because the attack bonus allowed me to hit even more, and critical hit even more frequently, allowing me use of Zero In so I could inflict statuses. If that wasn't up, allies and Lock On from Held Image also just helped. Often, I just also didn't need it for the attack bonus.

Effectively, I never found the charges to ever feel like running out in any of the games I played, and I'm consistently feeling that I'm kind of ignoring the GM a lot with just the rifle, which I think agrees with the sentiment here.

lyric crag
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I've got some ideas on the matter of the rifle that I'm going to investigate for the next update, I think this area of feedback (the "hard to effectively penalize/debuff the Gilgamesh and/or the rifle") has helped me zero in on some things

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I don't think the overall rifle stats are likely to change overly much (and in fact I may revise the range back up to its original 15), nor the reliability, the crux of it seems to be the accuracy allowing the user to mitigate things like cover, impaired, etc too readily

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So that's what I'm going to look at

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I think that if someone is using things like lock on, leader, core powers, etc, to juice up the rifle that that's just business as usual, I would argue that's how a lot of heavy weapons get used anyway, it's the fact that you can fall back on the rifle's own pool of accuracy points which appears to be causing the most "counter-counterplay" issues

weak moth
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/nodnod yeah, you can always just fall back on the rifle's charges to make up like 1 inaccuracy was my experience that really felt like I was just invalidating the GM play whenever needed, and that hardly consumes charges at all which can be refilled. It's less a problem with leadership etc because those are opportunistic, but they sometimes leave a gap, like 1 inaccuracy still left, cover, etc.

With the rifle, I could just look at all of that and go 'yeah, no', here's the shortfall, and because I spend so little charges to make up for those, I can do this repeatedly.

I basically just felt far too safe about the GM being not able to interfere with the rifle whenever I brought it, and that was consistent over multiple frames.

lyric crag
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Yeah I think this has been a very helpful deep dive into these particular issues, along with the Gilgamesh's passive clearing conditions

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so when the next draft comes (sometime this month) those are going to be things that get some tinkering in particular

ornate oracle
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Ah, shoot, forgot to post my build

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[ LICENSES ]
  HA Gilgamesh 2, HA Sherman 3, HORUS Pegasus 1
[ CORE BONUSES ]
  Overpower Caliber, Integrated Ammo Feeds
[ TALENTS ]
  Crack Shot 3, Engineer 3, Nuclear Cavalier 2, Grease Monkey 1
[ STATS ]
  HULL:2 AGI:2 SYS:0 ENGI:4
  STRUCTURE:4 HP:17 ARMOR:1
  STRESS:4 HEATCAP:11 REPAIR:5
  TECH ATK:0 LIMITED:+5
  SPD:5 EVA:10 EDEF:8 SENSE:10 SAVE:14
[ WEAPONS ]
  Integrated: Prototype Weapon III
  MAIN MOUNT: SOL-Pattern Laser Rifle
  FLEX MOUNT: Missile Rack / Missile Rack
  HEAVY MOUNT: Legionnaire Battle Rifle // Overpower Caliber
[ SYSTEMS ]
  ASURA-Class NHP x6, Redundant Systems Upgrade x6, Hunter Lock, Personalizations```