Operation Winter Scar Questions

[barren pewter]

Basicly: The Shock Claws are way more muderous than the Empaaki's Big Fist.

[dreamy eagle]

Big Fist is for Grapples, Shock Claws are for Punch

[fair hedge]

Oh wait.

Battle Oracle: 1/round, when a hostile character misses the Amber Phantom with an
attack, it may pull a character within Sensors up to 2 spaces in any direction
If I'm not mistaken in reading this, Battle Oracle could be used to move allies as well?

[dreamy eagle]

Yes.

[chrome lagoon]

Currently yes

I had originally thought to make it hostiles only but I'd like to experiment with a more agnostic version

It won't override heavy frame so you can't use it to drag along the party Drake

[dreamy eagle]

Actually, Kai

What happens if someone's beating me up in melee (or in general) as an Amber Phantom, and then I say "no, Ronin, you are now outside of range of me"

What happens to the other 1-2 attacks

[chrome lagoon]

the same thing that would happen if you pushed them away (or moved yourself away) via any other triggered effect or interpositional reaction

[barren pewter]

They vanish into the Aether, if they can't be made. Like if you braced + ran away via a brace system.

[dreamy eagle]

Jesus Christ, that's powerful.

I like it.

Huge fan of "hey. you. operator. you failed your invis check and have been shunted behind a wall so you lose your other attacks. die."

[mighty elm]

singularity motivator can already do something fairly similar so it’s not really beyond the pale

[chrome lagoon]

I would have liked the movement to be a teleport to keep in line with things like the swallowtail's prophetic interjection but I don't think that's tenable with the Sunzi being a player option

[dreamy eagle]

Well, it's involuntary movement and thus doesn't trigger reactions, yeah? So that's at least one thing that could be problematic out.

[chrome lagoon]

also I think that a teleport version would have had to remain hostile only simply because I wasn't looking to make it a "move your heavy frame allies" thing, but as a pull I'm more comfortable exploring it as a general purpose effect

[barren pewter]

I think the concern is more:

Safe Harbor: When allied characters within Range 50 of the Sunzi teleport or are teleported, free spaces adjacent to the Sunzi are always valid end destinations.

[chrome lagoon]

the concern is actually more blink anchor

which lets you redirect HOSTILE teleports

[barren pewter]

Where it would turn into 'If anyone misses me, I can immediately recall someone back to the Sunzi'.

That's fair

[chrome lagoon]

so blipping a missed attacker over to the blink anchor

the swallowtail uses teleports as an "actually I was over HERE the whole time" thing, and it does synergize with the sunzi (your diegesis may vary on how this works) but it has the benefit of affecting allies only

[pallid girder]

I'll agree with this, i think Sunzi is already plenty strong without it

lol

[chrome lagoon]

any sort of hostile forced teleportation effect has to contend with the possibility that someone will run a sunzi and let you turn so much as a "teleport this target 1 space" into "teleport this guy across the map"

[steel hemlock]

it's more feedback than a question, but it seems you have a typo in the lycan claws in the lcp, as compared to the pdf

[barren pewter]

Oh yeah, that's a wording distinction

[chrome lagoon]

Gotcha, I'll make a note of it

In all cases consider the pdf the primary source

[steel hemlock]

i figured, but thought it useful to point at the lcp anyway

while on the topic, the kutuzov core is missing efficient on the lcp

[spiral hound]

Time To Make Dodge Tank Amber Phantom!!

[proper rose]

Really appreciate the level of detail and thought processes included in the change log, really helps understand what all is different and why. Hoping to actually convince my group to playtest a few of these next week

[fathom shard]

so with Kutozov's new core power, does it prevent automatic effects that provoke saves?

this question prompted by misremembering explosive vents as having a save, but I figure it's still worth asking just in case it comes up elsewhere

[chrome lagoon]

I'm sure there will be some sort of weird interaction I need to account for, but broadly the answer is no it doesn't. The distinction I'm drawing presently is that the core will prevent someone from, for example, tossing a grenade and forcing you to make a save (though other people in the area may be affected) and the person benefitting from the aegis walking into a mine. If they walk into a mine they don't neutralize or no-sell it assuming it's save based because it wasn't an action that someone did to them which forced a save. This is different from something like the Raleigh's Full Metal Jacket which breaks if you force any save at all, even passively

[fathom shard]

👍

[chrome lagoon]

like if the Raleigh was a more hard and fast "you CAN'T force saves" thing like it literally shut off your ability to do so, I suspect it would cause a lot of weird confusion cases, what happens to mines the raleigh had previously deployed, do they become inert, detonate without any effect, etc, I feel like it would get very strange. Since this is a more absolute shutdown type ability, I'm attempting to draw a line between someone actively doing something to someone which will force a save (an Assault's Micro-Missiles for instance) and something that just sorta happens which invokes a save

I'll revisit it if it turns out there are a bunch of equally weird edge cases to have to wade through

[mossy rain]

Question: Does the Kutuzov's new core power also prevent the selected characters from using drone attacks against each other?

[gritty crest]

If they take an action or reaction, force saves or involves the character (not the drone) attacking, they are blocked

[mossy rain]

Ye, I get that. I'm just curious if drones getting around that is an intended interaction.

[gritty crest]

It sounds like it broadly falls under the "you already placed a mine" exception that Kai mentioned earlier. Attacking with a drone is rare (ghast, ish, and assassin) but still blocked. Passive saves (e.g. tempest) are fine because they don't take actions, like someone stepping on a mine

[chrome lagoon]

If you do the thing, you actually cannot

like take the GMS Type-3 Shield which gives mutual difficulty on attacks between two people, would the Type-3 give you a difficulty penalty if you used a deployed ghast nexus to shoot someone? Yeah, so you can't use a deployed ghast nexus to skirt around this

[mossy rain]

Yeah, that makes sense.

[chrome lagoon]

Now take something like the Engineer NPC, to the best of my understanding Engineer turrets are treated as 100% their own actors, with their own attack rolls, idk maybe this has been ruled otherwise elsewhere and if so I am unaware of it, but if they are indeed as they appear to be wholly independent characters making their own attacks then the projected aegis will only interfere with said attacks if you apply it to the turret and not the engineer

[mossy rain]

I was just about to ask about that!

[chrome lagoon]

And something like a GMS turret drone, meanwhile, is neither an attack or a save

If someone wanders into a mine or a titan-snare drone or something, that's a save but it's not someone pointing a finger at a person and going "fuck you, micro-missile barrage" or "I choose you to be a part of this Logic Bomb"

[mossy rain]

That makes sense.

[chrome lagoon]

In a certain respect, it's similar to how "hostile actions" work in regard to things like breaking Hidden

not entirely similar because Hidden has a straight-up "if you force any save no matter how it happens, you aren't hidden anymore" clause so someone stepping on a mine will specifically break it for THAT reason

but, like, someone wandering over your caltrop patch despite taking damage from a thing you layed upon the ground with malice aforethought will not

[potent girder]

Re: Shock Claws, I know it can't be used to attack in the same turn as another heavy/superheavy, but can it be used to attack in the same turn as itself? (I.e., should the player be able to attack twice in the same turn with Shock Claws?)

Right now the only way to do that so far as I can tell is to asura protocol, activate core power as a full action, and then barrage as a full action, so it's a bit of a niche scenario anyways

[old nimbus]

Dumb shower thought: The new exotic that's coded in as a core bonus, why not code it in as an Indestructible 0SP system? (idk if that's much a good idea, I just kind of thought of it when looking at it earlier)

[chrome lagoon]

It's not another weapon so yes, provided you have a method for attacking twice in a turn with a superheavy weapon. Pretty much the only way to do that which immediately springs to mind- yeah

is asura

you can 100% do that

[potent girder]

neat, makes sense

[chrome lagoon]

Well, the thing is that (and I'm not trying to be glib) it's a core bonus, as in it takes one of your four

[old nimbus]

huh.

interesting...

[chrome lagoon]

it becomes an option you can choose from, but it's not a thing on top of everything else

[limber holly]

with the new Lycan, it seems as though if you start a scene at 2 or fewer structure you can immediately Go Loud with the best (Ruined, on comp/con) profile

[chrome lagoon]

so coding it as a system wouldn't make that work because it wouldn't have that restriction

[chrome lagoon]

sure

[limber holly]

of course the natural consequence of this is that you are now on 2 structure at the start of the scene

but it does seem like it might affect how lycans choose to spend their repairs

[old nimbus]

so that also means you cannot even gain access to it until LL3, no?

[chrome lagoon]

if you're willing to roll the dice on going into a fight at 2 structure (or otherwise have no alternative) then I am for now willing to say go for it

[chrome lagoon]

I can't really stop GMs if they want to award it earlier and bend the rules, I mean that's up to them

[old nimbus]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

fair enough

[chrome lagoon]

but notably it's a thing you get in a module that runs from LL2-4

[old nimbus]

I was just a bit curious about it

[chrome lagoon]

even if it was a non-exotic core bonus, the same would be true

which is one of the big reasons why I didn't put any core bonus stuff in Solstice Rain as some people wondered about/suggested

[potent girder]

if you're starting a fight at 2 structure and immediately choose to go loud, you are stripped of your armor and resistances for the duration of the whole scene, which personally speaking would terrify me if i only had two structure to work with :p

[chrome lagoon]

"be at 2 structure" is not really an active game plan for this iteration of the lycan, it is essentially a quit clause/consolation effect in case of catastrophe which does not result in you getting the snake eyes roll

[potent girder]

nothing wrong with getting spicy if you're willing to blow up for it

[chrome lagoon]

like yeah I guess you could smash your face against the Smite brick wall enough times to try and make it happen, but beyond just "hey look at the damage/attack stacking stuff" the thing which was coming out from the last round of playtesting was an emerging dynamic of "the GM just sort of declines to engage the lycan because doing so powers it up," which while kind of funny in a sense is also not really a great outcome

hence what I'm trying is something a little more based around things like allies taking hits instead

meanwhile, the lycan CAN get powered up if it takes sufficient damage, but the amount required there is more of a risky/undesirable ask

there's some incentive for the GM to apply force to the lycan because 2 structure down is bad for anybody, that's "could get stunned, could get destroyed" territory

Do they decide to focus on the Lycan to go for that? Well that's attacks that aren't going elsewhere. Do they take clean shots at other people? If the Lycan is in position that could potentially dial the claws up, but would it really be worth avoiding putting a structure on someone just because of that? Etc

How well in practice this plays out remains to be seen given this has been live for the better part of 12 hours, but those are the thoughts behind the changes

[limber holly]

doing comparative research on the Lycan's claws has really brought into focus how pushed the funny d/d's statline is

slowed really is that bad huh

[chrome lagoon]

I know it's pretty common practice with Avenger NPCs to simply have the optimal strategy be "just kill the Avenger first 4head" but I think the dynamic is a little different when it's a full fledged PC mech versus an average 1 structure NPC

(and a further reason why there's an "if you happen to stay standing at 2 structure you can just get all the prizes" clause)

[limber holly]

of the five melee superheavies, d/d does by far the most damage - all the others are floating around roughly 14ish, meanwhile the D/D is out here at 22

[chrome lagoon]

The D/D288's statline is more a product of the fact that it has an enforced quick action charging time, heat costs, AND slowed

[limber holly]

oh right yeah the enforced quick action

if you have a heavy mount a quick is worth about 7 damage, methinks

which brings all of the superheavy melees approximately in line with each other

[chrome lagoon]

like you can build up an OC loop with the 288 by "attack, overcharge to charge it for next round", but that incurs a lot of heat

[limber holly]

the two outliers being the colossal termo-unguis (below the line even if you treat Heat as damage, but it has threat FOUR) and the lycan claws

[chrome lagoon]

I will not say I built like

spreadsheets and solved universal equations, but I did some basic back of the napkin damage mathing

[potent girder]

well, combat drill can be an outlier if stress is a resource to you

[limber holly]

claws also have overkill

making them effectively strictly better combat drill, even with no upgrades

wait.

[chrome lagoon]

well the drill can continue to proc packets of damage

overkill DOES raise average damage

but when used correctly the drill GAINS additional damage

and is famous for sometimes just popping off and one shotting an ultra or something

[limber holly]

maximizing a die is not technically a straight upgrade because it has overkill

...somehow i forgot combat drill's primary trait of "delete enemy with conditions"

[chrome lagoon]

you don't take the drill just because it's 4d6 damage with overkill, you take the drill because it's one of the few things in lancer that has an exploding dice equivalent

[limber holly]

is the only thing really all that comparable to the lycan claws just the TCB, then?

3d6+4, so 14.5 avg damage (vs 16.5)

also has AP, but has +1 Threat and Knockback 2 instead of Accurate and Overkill

[chrome lagoon]

the claws do more damage on average than things like the combat drill or tempest charged blade but not, to my eyes by an excessive degree, and for that you get to ditch your armor and your resistance trait

the big thing is that you get Accurate which doesn't appear pretty much anywhere in heavy/superheavy melees because of Executioner being incredibly synergistic with it, but if you do so while it's only Threat 1 then that value goes way down

because Executioner really wants extended threat

[limber holly]

the other consideration is that this is your core active and you don't get a second one (this scene)

[chrome lagoon]

NPCs being conveniently clumped up so you can cleave into another with a Threat 1 weapon is a lot less likely to occur than with a Threat 2 weapon

[limber holly]

everest with initiative popped can have an accurate tcb because they have accurate everything

[chrome lagoon]

now the claws can BE threat 2 but you don't start there and someone is gonna have to take a structure on the chin

(meanwhile the claws do have the secondary arc effect to spread some more damage out regardless)

[limber holly]

actually i think the lycan would get a lot of use out of a combat drill

it can just mount it as a normal weapon and then decide between it and the claws each turn once it goes loud

the self heat from Overkill can help make sure you trigger power flux while there's enemies in range

[chrome lagoon]

You max the claws out and you hit like a paracausal truck but my guess is doing so will probably not be a thing you can regularly plan around so much as a thing which may happen and create a moment

[limber holly]

a thought

starting a scene with only 2 structure on purpose is basically the lycan's castigate

[chrome lagoon]

could look at it that way

Not really a deliberate parallel in the sense of "yeah I did this on purpose for that" but I'm sure someone will get clever and try it and discover it's not that great of an idea, but who knows

[slim plover]

i am very excited to try these changes out, especially into the kutuzov update! thanks for putting in the work kai

also echoing appreciation for the changelog, if for no other reason than its really really interesting to see the logic behind each decision

as someone interested in game design principles in general

[potent girder]

for the Shock Claws: assuming you activated your core after multiple allies have gotten structured, is the secondary d6 deterministic damage also non-reducible? or is it just the primary damage

for that matter: does overkill apply to the secondary damage?

[dreamy eagle]

I assume the Genghis Fire rule applies, which is that the d6 of damage is disconnected from the weapon itself and doesn't inherit its tags

[trail knoll]

Considering trying to sketch up the Gilgamesh, is there any art references of it or similar “look” to go off of? Recalled the anime Obsolete and some of the mech designs from it to reference the type of replaceable exoskeleton.

[chrome lagoon]

I'm a big obsolete fan to be sure

though I can't say it's like a direct inspiration for anything Gilgamesh related

right now my tentative ideas for what the winter scar mechs might look like are a bunch of vague ideas and visual concepts stuffed into a moodboard folder, and something I will need to discuss with the artist(s) when the time comes

with certain mechs (like the lycan) I have some pretty clear elements that I want to see incorporated, with others it's currently a bit more vague and vibes based

I want each of the frames to clearly evoke the shared visual design elements of their respective manufacturers so I would expect the Gilgamesh to follow suit, it'll be an HA mech at a glance with the usual hard angled surfaces and geometric brutalist elements, etc

[barren pewter]

Yeah so even if it's a 'put together/pull apart' mech, it's likely to not look ramshackle

As that's more IPS-N's 'We made it in a garage' theming.

[dreamy eagle]

For what it's worth, especially with the big old kinetic battle rifle, my conception of the Gilgamesh looked like #1 there (also a big Obsolete fan) with the characteristic polyfaceted HA cockpit above the current main body + some tactical webbing and extra stowage

[chrome lagoon]

The Obsolete US marine mech is in the inspo folder somewhere

idk if I'm going to go with Big SCAR-L for the battle rifle, there's some Front Mission stuff in there too

etc

[dreamy eagle]

Makes sense

When I was doing some preliminary description work for my new AMT character's mech, since he runs a Gilgamesh, what I ended up with was what could probably be best described as a cross between an Iskander and one of those mine-protected vehicles the US used in the Middle East - ERA, extra plating bolted on, auxiliary gear for accompanying infantry, extra cameras for situational awareness, etc

[barren pewter]

Makes sense. with the theming, it being more of a hand-held gun makes sense.

[chrome lagoon]

I would say one of the key elements that I am going to be exploring is, basically, something that evokes load-bearing backpack systems

The Gundam Silver Bullet Suppressor is also something I'm taking some notes on as it's a Gundam that literally has a bunch of spare arms it needs to use because one of its weapons is so powerful it destroys its arm each time it fires

[round gorge]

It would be very funny if the Amber Phantom weren't amber.

[trail knoll]

Very nice, will try and take a swing at it with these in mind.

[whole vessel]

Just a heads up, I'm not sure if it's been mentioned already but Winter Scar exotics appear to be showing in CompCon without the option selected to reveal them in the latest .lcp

[chrome lagoon]

I'm not experiencing that issue

This is before and after I toggle exotics on, the electrohydraulic claw, fusion torch, and shrapnel cannon are all showing up only after I do so

and I just checked systems, same thing

[whole vessel]

For me it occurs in the Hangar

[dreamy eagle]

Only happens to me with the BOUNDER when going to select mods for a weapon

Everything else is correctly filtered

(also, for reference, there's a typo in its effects)

[chrome lagoon]

Dunno then, they're all being appropriately exotic filtered in the compendium, and a glance through the code shows that they have the exotic tag

[dreamy eagle]

Order of Leander can't be filtered

if you're having a problem with BOUNDER showing up for some reason, so am I

[whole vessel]

yep

[chrome lagoon]

yeah there is no way for me to tag a core bonus with Exotic

I tried and it crashed

Hence "This core bonus counts as a piece of Exotic Gear."

maybe there's a super special hack or something but Comp/Con, as far as I can tell, does not let you create "unaffiliated" core bonuses the way exotic gear is unaffiliated with a particular manufacturer

[limber holly]

i'm also having bounder show up

when it shouldn't

[chrome lagoon]

okay I'll ask and see what's up, best I can do

[verbal garnet]

Afaik it isn't a thing which can really be fixed. I will double check but I think all my exotic mods do this too

[chrome lagoon]

I was wondering if it might be a weird intersection of weapon mods and the exotic tag

If it is I'll make a note of it going forward

[chrome lagoon]

#new-content-resources message Okay it appears that comp/con simply doesn't filter for exotic weapon mods the same way as it does other gear, until someone shows me a clever trick that puts a lie to this, for now I'm operating on the assumption that this is a comp/con issue which means there's nothing I can really do about it

[gritty crest]

It'd be a really, really stupid hack, but could you make a fake Exotic manufacturer with a fake Exotic license? That'd at least stop them from showing up as GMS

[chrome lagoon]

I'll be honest, I'm kind of not going to go out of my way to worry about this stuff

"making an all I's dotted all T's crossed lcp" isn't actually a thing that's really my ultimate responsibility when it comes to this stuff, my job is to make the module, having a functional lcp is valuable for testing purposes but full-on comp/con compatibility stuff is someone else's job

so for now my advice is yeah the bounder comp/con may show up unprompted, if so just ignore it if you aren't using it

I recall some of the dustgrave stuff similarly being wonky until it got hammered out on the back end as well

[stable ice]

i'm sure the functionality will be added later anyway, likely won't be the first time an exotic core bonus is added to a supplement

[chrome lagoon]

Yeah I'll talk to beeftime about it later I'm sure

[shrewd stratus]

Does the Accuracy of the hydraulic claw Exotic weapon (forgot the name) stack with itself

[chrome lagoon]

If you mean the accuracy to various utility tasks, it doesn't and shouldn't

[shrewd stratus]

The ripping open ship hulls n all that

The narrative rolls for those

[chrome lagoon]

Yeah, it's one +1 Accuracy regardless of how many you have equipped

[shrewd stratus]

Gotcha gotcha

Thanks

[chrome lagoon]

It WILL stack with Personalizations if you happen to have some that overlap with it

[shrewd stratus]

Might need the same text then as the Vishpala Augmetics then?

(though I haven't seen the full text for those since I'm on mobile)

[jaunty condor]

Sorry if this has been asked but I want to ask a question about the design of the MBT. I love the look of the MBT and really want to run it but I'm curious about its interaction with templates that resize it such as giving it the ship template and its directional armour. When resized should it always only take up a line 2 segment? Or is it a case of if you resize it "figure out how large you want the line to be"

[chrome lagoon]

So on that subject, the MBT is actually a Vehicle and not a mech, and the Ship and Vehicle templates specifically state they can only be applied to Mech NPCs

lose the Mech tag and become a Ship instead.```

So rules as written, this is something that falls under the purview of "conveniently not my problem"

[jaunty condor]

Oh fair enough

[chrome lagoon]

I would say that if you want to upsize the MBT that I would have the protected facing size scale accordingly with the token footprint's size

i.e. a size 3 MBT would still have a protected facing running the full length of one of its sides

[jaunty condor]

Basically just "draw a line equal the size of the MBT"

[chrome lagoon]

yeah I'm sure it might get wonky at some point with how hex tokens scale up compared to squares etc

[shrewd stratus]

Or just pick a side, that should work unless you're using oddly shaped minis

[jaunty condor]

I didn't notice that interaction though with the ship and MBT so raw that interaction isn't possible... Best way to do it is "you're the GM you upscaled it, your job to figure it out" works very easily 😛

[chrome lagoon]

this is just one of those cases where I checked the most obvious "official" vector of sizing an NPC up and by the rules there's no way to take it, so I didn't really bother to sit down and go "okay does this get funky at any sizes above 2"

I know that a lot of GMs will ignore that stuff and fair play to them, in which case yeah, it basically comes down to "pick one side, it's armored"

Making it too much bigger will probably make it easier overall to flank, I would wager

[inland tree]

Ah damn, my first thought was using the Ship template to make a flying tank

[fathom shard]

I feel like flying has its own set of problems

because then you have to decide whether the bottom is its own facing

[analog silo]

Things can already impact the mbt from "above" but I would simply ignore elevation in these things and if an attack is originating from the "same coordinates" as the npc it probably isn't hitting the armour

[noble onyx]

Is my math right in assuming that if you have maxed out limited charges on the legion nexus you can do 9d6+18 in a turn with the drones alone assuming they all hit the target

[dreamy eagle]

You have the old LCP

[proper rose]

Legion Nexus got drastically changed, the drones don't attack on their own anymore

And only buff the base damage up to a max of 3d6+6

[noble onyx]

ahh okay thank you guys, i downloaded the lcp last night but i guess i still got the old one

is 1.2 the right one?

[proper rose]

I believe so

[noble onyx]

ah okay i see the changes now, thank you guys

[round gorge]

Small fluff question, but is the "Campbell" of the would-be BOUNDER license meant to be a specific naval figure?

[shrewd stratus]

IIRC it is, Kai made a Campbell frame once I'm pretty sure

Before the Caliban was made

Don't know which specific person it references though

[peak lynx]

Per Kai: #lancer-general message

[silver quiver]

Can the Amber Phantom pull itself with it's Battle Oracle trait?

[proper rose]

No, characters can't target themselves unless it's directly specified

[shrewd stratus]

How does Bounder work with Arc Projector? Can you apply the reroll/rebound effects to the secondary attacks or only the primary one?

[hasty pollen]

the effect is 1/round but I see no reason it wouldn't apply to the secondary attacks - it would probably also work with the annihilator's secondary attacks, too.

[cold badger]

oh wow

if that's true, it's super good

[gritty crest]

if an enemy starts their turn in the inner burst 1 ring of a loitering payload, moves 1 space to the outer burst 2 ring, then 1 more space outside of the burst, do they set off the payload?

[analog silo]

Yes, they voluntarily moved more than one space while within its area

[gritty crest]

that's fair. I was overthinking things, worrying about them ending up outside the burst

[analog silo]

as with overwatch "starting to move" counts as voluntarily moving

[vital grotto]

Just had a player question come up about the interaction of Demolitionist 3's grenade effect:

When you throw a Grenade, up to three characters within Range 3 of the targeted space take 2 explosive damage and are knocked back 1 space in a direction of your choice by explosive shrapnel.
and whether it applies to the Gilgamesh's Spear Charges, specifically the Anti-Armor Rocket action. The system has the grenade tag so it's definitely valid as a grenade, but it explicitly targets a single character rather than a space.

Personally as a GM I'd just say 'yeah that still works' since it seems like a bit of a fiddly wording-legalism thing and it's still obvious what location is being targeted. But figured I'd still ask - is that ability intended to interact with Demo 3?

[mighty elm]

aiui that does still work; demo3 is worded that way specifically so that it works for single target grenades as well

[vital grotto]

danke

[silver hill]

How does that work if the target is Size 2 or larger? Do you have to pick one of their spaces to check Range 3 from or can you target characters who are within Range 3 of any part of the target?

[gritty crest]

It's a weird case for sure. But it's not unique to Spear Charges, since several core grenades are single target (Mesmer, grounding), and roller grenades don't target a space. Let me see if I can dig up any discussion on Mesmer or ground charges and demo3, but roller is one case where demo3 officially doesn't work

[chrome lagoon]

Demolitionist 3 is intended to work with "target a single character" grenades like Mesmer Charges and SPEAR Charges, you can consider it a wording discrepancy but ultimately that's the intent. For consistency with things like MULE Harness and how characters don't ever occupy specific spaces of a larger actor but are simply subsumed into the whole of their footprint, the way to handle larger characters would be that you check for Range 3 from the target's own footprint

Roller Grenades are a very weird exception to grenades in general and have their own specific circumstances as outlined in the FAQ

if it comes to it I'll append further clarification to the FAQ later in regards to this, but for now, that's how it works

[gritty crest]

I always appreciate having a FAQ entry to point at in rules-questions, but I don't know how much work it is to add one

[finite cypress]

I got to play a Gilgamesh now, and I liked it. Though I never got to play with its first design with the really strong "ignore overcharge cost" version, I think the current version works well.

It stands in my head as the definitive Harrison workhorse frame now, 'cause it's more general in use than the Sherman.

It felt like I was playing a Harrison Everest, with the Core Passive and Active, in a way.

[pure willow]

Gilg!!!!

[chrome lagoon]

that was definitely the intent

[pure willow]

Gilg is neat in that it... isn't really a heat criminal?

[chrome lagoon]

I see the Sherman as still being the more "definitive" HA frame with a broader market, while the Gilgamesh sees a lot more use internally with HA forces

[pure willow]

By HA standards, at least

[dense temple]

It focuses on the Limited Systems part of the Engineering manufacturer more

[chrome lagoon]

The Gilgamesh is part of HA's attempts to further and further divest themselves from needing to rely on Union, the sort of thing that sees them messing around with stolen Voldaor blink tech and eventually developing things like the Michel Ney

[mystic magnet]

gilgamesh my beloved

[chrome lagoon]

and also yeah, HA is largely seen as "the heat manufacturer" but they're also the one with Integrated Ammo Feeds, the Iskander, etc

[mystic magnet]

I'm the rare guy in my social group who loves vancian casting so Limited as a mechanic speaks to me, I love that resource management shit, and gilgamesh tickles my brain in a very particular way (the same way the iskander does, spekaing of my Favorite Frame In Core)

the rifle in particular I've had a lot of brain worms about lately

[pure willow]

I just like Turret Drones, so anything that gives me an excuse to use them sounds pretty damn good

[mystic magnet]

turret drones are so good

[dreamy eagle]

🤝

we love the LBR in this household

[hasty pollen]

I wish the LBR was still range 15 honestly, though that's still probably too much. it gave the death's head the possibility of matching rifle ranges at range 15...

[finite cypress]

I think I wouldn't want it less than 12, but 12 is a good range for it with its utility with its limited effect.

[lime wedge]

(wrong thread. apologies.)

[hasty pollen]

as worded, it doesn't, but it feels like the Kutzhov's core power should count as a 'shield system' for its own traits. this might be unnecessary, it's not based on play data, it just feels odd that it doesn't.

[pure willow]

Might give it a needed boost, ngl. I haven't played it yet, but reading through recent playtests it does seem like it could use some sort of incentive for use

And that sort of mechanic exists elsewhere in the book (see: Gilgamesh)

[pallid girder]

These aren't really questions these are just wishes for what you'd like to see, which isn't really the purpose of this place here

[chrome lagoon]

As worded it is

It's a system and it has the shield tag

[hasty pollen]

oh this is my fault for looking at it on comp/con, oop

[chrome lagoon]

Also going to reiterate that "I haven't played it but" is never going to be a thing I am interested in, and the most recent playtest didn't even say "yeah this sucks and needs incentives" anyway, so

[hasty pollen]

I don't really mind if my feedback is ignored due to that, that's why I said I hadn't played it yet

[chrome lagoon]

That was more aimed at the literal "I haven't played it yet, but"

[hasty pollen]

oh right fair double sorry

[chrome lagoon]

The last iteration of the Kutuzov's core power wasn't working very well in terms of usefulness but so far the new version hasn't seen a lot of feedback in general which means it's kind of early for me to tell one way or another

[old nimbus]

Weird rules quirk: due to the wording of this, the character being attacked can be hit with this effect. I am unsure if this is the intent, but it does increase the damage of the Lycan's Shock Claws a great deal.

[chrome lagoon]

per the pdf:
On Attack: You may deal 1d6 AP energy damage to a different character of your choice within Range 3 of the target.
you may deal 1d6 AP energy damage to up to two different characters within Range 3 of the target.

"Different character" being the operative term"

[old nimbus]

That is... not the most clear.

[chrome lagoon]

actually that's also in the lcp as well

so I'm not sure where your first screenshot is from, possibly an outdated version

[old nimbus]

I do, it is 0.1.0

[chrome lagoon]

Regardless, "different character" means exactly that

[old nimbus]

Just installed the new one, says the same thing on my comp/con.

LCP 1.2 enters comp/con as 0.1.0

[chrome lagoon]

yes I'm aware of that discrepancy, it'll be corrected when I put out the next version

[old nimbus]

Alright.

[old nimbus]

I still think there's a bit of a clarity issue. "Character other than the target", despite the extra words, would be much clearer as to who can be damaged by the effect.

[chrome lagoon]

"Different character within range X of the target" seems pretty explanatory

"can it be the same character even though it says different character?" is a question with an answer that also seems pretty explanatory

So far I haven't had a lot of people expressing confusion over this so for now I think I'm going to leave it be

[shrewd stratus]

Also wait the Core Active is supposed to trigger Parallel Projectors?

[chrome lagoon]

Yes, hence why it has the shield tag

otherwise I wouldn't bother

[shrewd stratus]

LCP doesn't seem to have it

[chrome lagoon]

I'm aware of that too, and as always in cases like this, please refer to the pdf as a primary source over the lcp

[shrewd stratus]

Right, just making sure discrepancies have been caught

[noble onyx]

many things in lancer us "different target" to mean exactly that, a target that is different than the current target

[chrome lagoon]

@shrewd stratus @hasty pollen and for the benefit of anyone else, I suspected this might be the case but I've confirmed that compcon doesn't allow you to put tags on core systems, which means there's no way for me to add a shield tag to the kutuzov's core system

I can make a note of it in the text, but that's the best I'll be able to do unless beeftime changes compcon accordingly

[shrewd stratus]

Gotcha chief

[high stone]

Might be something to give him a poke about if its gonna be a part of a first party product?

[languid anchor]

More a lore question than anything else

So at the halfway point it says Union reinforcements are 30 months out because the nearest blinkgate is that far away from Cressidium. So did the PCs take that same amount of time to reach Cressidium during OSR? OSR mentions it's a remote world, but doesn't say anything like "oh by the way the party will have known each other for two and a half years by the time this starts"

[dreamy eagle]

1: 3 months subjective experience for shipboard personnel, with 10:1 time dilation
2: they won't even have been awake for that entire period, since nonessential personnel being up from stasis just consume resources

[languid anchor]

Where can I find this info, so I can read it myself to get a full understanding? Is it just a result of near-light travel?

[dreamy eagle]

Correct.

https://www.britannica.com/science/time-dilation

Union's most common nearlight drive speed produces an approximately 10:1 realtime:subjective dilation factor.

(this is covered in more depth in Lancer: Battlegroup to some extent)

[chrome lagoon]

Yep, due to the theory of relativity and time dilation, the closer you get to lightspeed the more your personal frame of chronological reference separates from the "objective" timeline, or to put it in other words while traveling at near-lightspeed everything outside of your ship is advancing in time much faster than it is for you aboard the ship

the commonly held nearlight point of reference for drives in lancer gets you up to a speed of around 0.995c, which makes for a nice and simple 1:10 ratio of perceived time to actual time

[languid anchor]

Didn't consider that, makes total sense, thanks!

[chrome lagoon]

blinkgate travel is instantaneous from gate to gate, but to travel anywhere else means that you have to go the "slow" way, and this incurs time dilation, which does mean that union personnel who spend a lot of time aboard a ship traveling from place to place like this will experience a lot of time dilation in that regard, it's not really a thing you do a five year tour on and then go back home and nothing's changed, so to be a spacer in Lancer's setting means a certain amount of commitment

that said, even if you assume nobody is going to be in stasis for the travel duration, the perceived time aboard a ship traveling from wherever to Cressidium is only going to be around 3-ish months or so, not a QUICK trip by most peoples' standards but also not 30 months (to them)

honestly, if I wanted to I probably could have shoved cressidium somewhere even more remote, by lancer standards a 30 month objective trip might not even be considered that far, but I wanted to give a timeline that didn't blindside people with a feeling of inexorable isolation

[languid anchor]

Yeah I getcha. It's long enough that reinforcements are years away, but not so long as to be odd for the PCs

[chrome lagoon]

yep, basically why I settled on that

2+ years of Sovereignty tyranny is absolutely an undesired state of affairs, but it also isn't a situation where even in the worst case scenario there's no way forward

[languid anchor]

Makes sense. After all, guerilla warfare is less about winning and more about not losing (generally)

[cold badger]

So is this the place for narrative questions too ?

[chrome lagoon]

If you want though I'd ask people to be mindful of spoilers

[cold badger]

Ok, i'll take care to add those

I'll start with the non spoiler stuff :
Do you have plans for anything more on cressidium ? As in, is there anything you've already planned for after OWS ?
And also, do you have a name or title for that narrative arc ? Official or not, I just don't know if there's a shorter way to refer to that story arc without having to say "OSR and OWS"

[chrome lagoon]

1). nope
2). also no

[cold badger]

Good to know

[dense temple]

the cressiduo

[silver hill]

Cressidiad

[cold badger]

I do very much like the Cressiduo

Now, spoilers for both OSR and OWR :
||About the option of Col. Kiros having survived after OSR, i don't see how not to have him die. Other than the PCs failing at the end of OSR, since that's not guaranteed, I don't see a way to have him survive. Did you have anything particular in mind, or was that just to leave the choice up to the GM ?||
||(If so, do you have a particular stance on the Sovereignty using clones for SOU33 members ? That could also be a fun way to mess with Gerou, now that I think about it...)||

[chrome lagoon]

1). ||Yeah he can survive if you fail the mission, that's not a guaranteed victory. Some GMs arbitrarily have him survive anyway, but the most straightforward way for him to reappear is if you failed the final mission in solstice rain.||
2). ||It's not something I have strong takes on one way or another, I haven't particularly envisioned the Sovereignty as having a thing for cloning but it's also not something I think is an issue if GMs want to add it in as an extra detail either.||

[cold badger]

Nice

||It could be a good way to introduce and explore that part of the LANCER setting, along with the unethical and horrible ways of SecComm||

[potent girder]

How does the deterministic secondary damage of Lycan's shock claws interact with backswing cut and no escape? does it trigger in both cases?

e.g. say a lycan barrages with the shock claws, triggering the deterministic secondary damage, and misses. it then uses no escape to attack a different target, and hits. does it trigger the secondary damage again? and if hitting that target allows you to make a backswing cut, would that mean triggering the secondary damage a third time?

[chrome lagoon]

1). Backswing Cut yes
2). No Escape no

[potent girder]

mm, because no escape counts as a reroll rather than a new attack?

[chrome lagoon]

No Escape is not making another attack, it's rerolling an attack

Also note that Backswing Cut specifically has to be made against a different character

You can't Backswing Cut against an empty space

[potent girder]

dang, closed that loophole before i even spotted it 😔

should the secondary damage with backswing cut be halved, or would it be the full d6?

[chrome lagoon]

I THINK for the purpose of backswing cut it wouldn't be halved, backswing cut is a little weird because it refers to "if the attack is successful it deals half damage" and the On Attack effect is completely divorced from success or failure

[potent girder]

makes sense :0

[livid cargo]

Hey on page 25 of the module PDF, I think a bit of text is cut out. Specifically when describing the MBT accompaniments. Like right here

Has this already been brought up? And if not is this the right place to bring it up?

This is in v1.2 btw

[chrome lagoon]

ah yeah, looks like something cut clipped during editing, I'll go back and hit that

[cold badger]

makes me think about something else too : during the "Roll the clock forward" section of downtime : six months later, especially on page 34, obtaining Exotic gear is mentionned. Just to be sure we don't have a repeat of OSR, are reserves and skill challenges the only intended/suggested ways to acquire Exotic gear during this downtime ?

[chrome lagoon]

Yeah there's no free lunch this time, it's solely a matter of reserves and skill challenges

[cold badger]

Got it, thanks !

[livid cargo]

Just an issue I noticed as a new GM, and I'd like to preface that this is from the perspective of a GM simply drafting the Sitreps in Comp/Con for later use and a GM with no actual play experience, so my feedback should be taken with a palm of salt:

In preparing for Solstice Rain and anticipating running winter scar, I noticed that the sheer enemy variety alone was very overwhelming to myself as an inexperienced GM, especially one who plans to run a physical game.

I sought out and found a simplified versions of the encounters in Solstice Rain, but Winter Scar seems to have a similar issue with almost no repeated enemies throughout the module, not just in the same encounters but also in the same missions. Moreover, every non-grunt enemy has additional characteristics, which further increases complication. As Winter Scar is also being advertised as a beginner friendly module to players and GMs alike, I was wondering if this was an issue that is known/not actually an issue?

I understand Solstice Rain and Winter Scar are being advertised as more beginner friendly modules, but I also understand the module also needs to stay consistent with its prequel however, so simplification may not necessarily be an option.

[chrome lagoon]

It's not a thing I plan to change

Or rather, while encounters may change based on playtest feedback (as encounters in solstice rain did on multiple occasions) I'm not planning to change them without said playtest feedback

Also Winter Scar isn't really a starter module, the default assumption is you're beginning play at LL2

[livid cargo]

Fair enough

[chrome lagoon]

Also "no repeated enemies throughout the module" is, I'm sorry, not even remotely close to true

[livid cargo]

Also fair enough

That was a poor choice of words on my part

[chrome lagoon]

As far as solstice rain goes, I've heard this feedback before and I consider it valid, but I also got feedback from people who appreciated the spread of NPCs throughout, it wasn't a case of there being overwhelming feedback leaning in one direction or another

[steel hemlock]

are the exotic weapons meant to not have unique on them?

[chrome lagoon]

nope

they aren't meant to have unique

same as the ones in solstice rain

My understanding of how the exotic gear tag works is if you want to take multiple pieces of the same non-unique exotic gear you can, but you're still limited to two pieces of equipment with the exotic tag on your build period

GEAR tag at a time, but can own any number of
pieces with the tag.```

So if you want two Electrohydraulic Claws then go for it, but you can't take a third

[livid cargo]

I found a typo on page 35, highlighted in this screenshot

It appears the word “month” is missing

[opal nexus]

I noticed that you wanted to shut down a potential Go loud + Asura combo. Unfortunatly it still exists, as the actions taken are Go Loud and barrage. If you want to stop it, you need to explicitly state that you cannot barrage again.

[chrome lagoon]

I'm going to leave the wording as it is for now

I will look at adjustments later but at the moment I think the changelog explains the intent

[old nimbus]

Hey uh... the LCP still have Amber Phantom with 1 armor.

[chrome lagoon]

Okay, I'll make a note of it for the next one

[cold badger]

A few questions on the Gilgamesh license :

• With the legionnaire battle rifle, could you, if you so desired, split up the 3 charges you spend between the two effects ? For example, if I fire and choose to spend 3 charges, could I do move 2 spaces on hit with +2 reliable / move 1 space on hit +4 reliable, or would I need to do +6 reliable or 3 move on hit ? (I'm not saying it would be particularly powerful, but it's good to know at least)
• Can multiple EMRs be used on the same brace ? if me and my friend both have an EMR, and a third squadmate braces while also having an EMR, could all three of us (if adjacent) use a charge and a repair to bring them to full hp along with removing 3 dice from the structure check, guaranteeing surviving going from 2 to 1 structure ? It's a pretty specific setup, but if the combo works I think it might just be worth it for some people...
• Since you can deploy multiple utility drones with a single action, can you also redeploy up to two with a quick action, or only one ?
• The Legion drones' assault position command only happens when you activate the protocol, right ? No possibility of making it happen later in the turn/round ?
  • Also, when you use the protocol, are you forced to make the movements first and then the commands, or can you choose which to apply first ? If so, can you make that choice for each individual drone ?

Just some basic clarifications, but still

[chrome lagoon]

1). You can mix and match effects freely.
2). With the current version, the answer is yes, if somehow you have a ball of people around in the right configuration to do this you can. Each person who uses an Emergency Repair Module will have to spend the repair to use it, but presently there's no intended "this doesn't stack" clause
3). Only one can be redeployed with a quick action, as per any other drone with redeployment capabilities
4). Only during the protocol
4.5). Movement/commands can occur in any order, and you can choose per individual drone

[cold badger]

nice, thanks !

after the improbably dense ball of ronins, introducing the improbably dense ball of ERMs !

[dreamy eagle]

What's the intent on driving fire for the LBR?

Can the direction of movement be split up per charge or is it the same for all charges?

[chrome lagoon]

Same for all

I can't think of anything in the game that does individual segments of forced movement that isn't just taking over someone's own standard move or something

[hasty pollen]

two Kutuzov questions

• as a Protocol, does activating the Type-3 Projected Shield activate Parallel Projectors or Expulsion Zone?
• does the quick action benefit of Parallel Projectors apply to involuntary movement(move through but do not end turn in obstructions)?

[hasty pollen]

(related to question 1, emperor quick tech shields aren't Activate, either)

[chrome lagoon]

1). yes
2). as far as I'm aware, nothing prevents it outright, it's a "may" effect which means it's up to the beneficiary whether they choose to wallwalk or not in any given circumstance, I'm unsure if there's a particular exploitative use case for it

[hasty pollen]

okay good to know, thank you!

oh it is a may that's neat. maybe occasionally relevant if enemies have a lot of forced movement.

[chrome lagoon]

The main other example I can think of for a "you can pass through X" which isn't tied to on-turn movement is the Atlas' Giantkiller trait

ignores engagement from larger characters and
can freely move through and share the spaces
they occupy (even if they’re hostile).``` and to my knowledge, this also include if they're involuntarily moved

[cold badger]

With the lycan , can you Shock Claws then overcharge into Heavy gunner with your normal heavy mount ?

It seems like it, but maybe that's not intended

[chrome lagoon]

This weapon can't be used to attack in the same turn as another Heavy or Superheavy weapon.

[cold badger]

wait I need to double-check the exact wording on Heavy gunner

[chrome lagoon]

You can use heavy gunner (via overcharging) on the same turn as an attack with the shock claws, heavy gunner's suppression isn't an attack

[cold badger]

yeah that's what I originally thought, hence the question

[chrome lagoon]

You cannot, explicitly, attack with the shock claws and a heavy weapon on the same turn. You can't do it by attacking with the heavy weapon first before you go loud, you can't do it by overcharging, you can't do it with weird extra action stuff, even the Prepare action counts as the action you would take, so a Prepared Skirmish is functionally a Skirmish

[cold badger]

yeah

[chrome lagoon]

if it's not an attack then it's kosher

and if it's not on the same turn it's also kosher, i.e. reaction attacks

[cold badger]

For a second there I believed HG had the same restrictions as prepare for some reason, so I checked first

but no, so it's fine

good to know !

[chrome lagoon]

yeah it's pretty common to both attack and use heavy gunner on the same turn with the same gun

[hollow tundra]

so there's something i wanted to note with the gilgamesh, when i check the sheet on the gilgamesh, the tags for limited seems to only refer to 5 instead of 6 on all of them, not taking into account the gilgamesh's frame trait

im not sure if this is just me or not, but im working with the integrated ammo feeds as well as maxed out engineering

[chrome lagoon]

I believe the issue here is that comp/con can't incorporate the +limited numbers from the Load-Bearing Hardpoints trait

[hollow tundra]

yeah that's what i was thinking as well

[chrome lagoon]

similar to how the BOUNDER-Class comp/con isn't hidden even though it's exotic or the Kutuzov's core active can't have the shield tag, this is a comp/con limitation

[hollow tundra]

a entirely new thing the Gilgamesh brings to the table affecting stats is bound to come with some bugs......

thankfully the charges still seem to work, so thats good!

well except for the engi weapon, but thats determined by a dice roll sooooooo

[chrome lagoon]

When things get to the point that official actual winter scar lcp work starts getting done (to be clear, the lcp that's available is not being handled by beeftime, it's being handled by me on the side) then I'll talk to beeftime and explain to him the various limitations which have popped up as a result, though how expediently they can be addressed is something I don't know because I'm not a comp/con dev guy

[hollow tundra]

Woo!

[atomic beacon]

Not sure if there's a better place for this question but:
How useful is playtest data that invloves heavy amounts of homebrew?
My current game has us messing around with quite a bit of homebrew and if I decided to test a MBT or some of the module maps on the players I wasn't sure if the feedback would still be valuable.

[chrome lagoon]

It COULD be useful but depending on the homebrew it might be significantly less so

[gritty crest]

if you notice an interaction with homebrew that breaks something first party, that might be more actionable from the homebrew side.

[atomic beacon]

Alright cool, I figured so.
Will probably still at least post feedback whenever they get to that encounter, but I'll just focus more on general feeling than specific interactions.

[silver quiver]

bit of a specific scenario popped into mind while throwing a Lycan together.

how does tracking the Go Loud shock-claws upgrade work with something like the unicomp core bonus or the spare battery reserve? If an ally gets structured, then I pop Go Loud at Damaged, and then an another ally takes a structure and I use Go Loud again, do I get Damaged again, or does it go to Ruined?

while specific, i don't think it's too unlikely since Unicomp is pretty popular for Effiicent core power frames.

[inland tree]

I'd say just note when you identify clear instances where homebrew impacted how the Winter Scar material played out (i.e. a homebrew player mech counters the MBT in a way that's improbable or impossible to do with any first party frame alone), and if you want the best chance of being able to provide feedback, avoid things like putting homebrew NPC templates on an MBT or other such blatant stream-crossing things.

[atomic beacon]

Yeah I was gonna keep the NPC side of that combat free of homebrew for that very reason, and keep an eye out for any particulary strange interactions on the player's side

[cold badger]

About the MBT (I know, again), does the composite armor trait mean something like 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, or none of those ? (or basically does it cover 6 sides, 4sides, or two whole spaces on the unit ?)

[silver hill]

I think 2?

Maybe 1, hexes are weird

[dreamy eagle]

I believe 2

[whole sable]

my understanding is 2

the key wording here is 'one side of its token, 2 spaces long'.
1, 4, and 5 have the right number of hexes, but cover multiple sides of the token.
3 has two sides of the token and uses three hexes.
2 picks only one side of the token and uses two hexes.
I think it helped me mentally to draw a triangle over the MBT.

Each side of the triangle is a valid choice for composite armor.

[untold cradle]

I've been playing Lycan across a few sitreps now and have been really liking it, but a friend raised a question I hadn't considered and didn't have a good answer for and I was curious cause I'd reckoned this had already been thought through or explained somewhere but I didn't see it.

Is there a reason why Go Loud doesn't give an evasion bump? You trade armor and 2 traits for speed but not evasion, it hasn't been an "issue" in my test but was curious since I was asked.

[late light]

I believe it's been said that Go Loud's intent was for you to trade defensive bulk for offensive power.

[dense temple]

yeah you're meant to become extremely shootable

[untold cradle]

Ah, appriciated.

[cold badger]

holy wow

triangle strat all the way

cleared everything up right away

yeah, thanks !

[jaunty condor]

Oh that's much better than I thought... I originally thought it would have been like, a length 2 line that would essentially be treated as a cover line...

Seeing it explained above makes me think it is MUCH more effective than what I thought!

[chrome lagoon]

This is, essentially, how it's intended to work

[dreamy eagle]

might want to pin that

[chrome lagoon]

In the finished book I'll be having Mina or somebody include some tac map examples of how the MBT's facing works

similar to the core book's diagrams on unit size, cover, etc

[chrome lagoon]

Also, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on the lycan if you feel like it

[untold cradle]

I really like it, I think it's a really good platform that sometimes I want to be too good at other things like offensive tech since the build switched from a Chomolungma. The Claws are one of the most fun weapons I've used on a build. I have a lot of fun theorycrafting variants of it because I have a lot of talents or weapons that I feel are good on it without a BIS thing but so far only two have seen real fielding

[paper kettle]

Do Javelins get around the MBT directional facing? The text of Javelins say

Choose 3 free spaces within range 15 and line of sight

But then afterwards they linger similar to mines. Does the initial volley of firing the Javelin Rockets count as "drawing a line," or do they not count as drawing lines by the time they're actually triggered?

[dreamy eagle]

They are top-attack munitions, and thus I would find it very funny if they did ignore MBT armor

[paper kettle]

Diagetically it's amusing, but me and another member of a Lancer group I'm in are having a small debate

I said that they wouldn't get around because they draw lines when activated, but they think that they do get around it because the actual damage effect doesn't draw a line

[chrome lagoon]

I don't think your interpretation is a bad one to make, but to my knowledge javelins don't really maintain a perpetual "effect line"

and I think keeping track of that would probably be extremely difficult

Probably what I will do is borrow some wording from the Iskander which talks about "mines and other proximity-based systems" to tie off that particular clause

That said, something to keep in mind is that ignoring the trait doesn't mean ignoring the MBT's armor entirely, because it has a base 2 armor by default

[dreamy eagle]

Still leaves Plasma Thrower unspoken-for, I think

[chrome lagoon]

Do you mean the burning patches?

[dreamy eagle]

(and the weird edge case of "does it matter if you drive armored side-first into the fire or get knocked back into it by Supermassive Mod, where you aren't armored")

Yep

same for "is the fire/related (like the death clouds from the Fusion Torch) victim to the and Resistance to damage from Blast, Burst, Line, and Cone attacks and effects clause"

[chrome lagoon]

Frankly as far as I can tell those are just treated as a terrain feature, I'm not sure the Iskander ignores them (if you have a ruling to the contrary I'd appreciate a link) but I also would not classify them as "an attack or effect" in either sense, the MBT likewise doesn't consider composite armor for things like dangerous terrain

[dreamy eagle]

Fair enough. Might be FAQ-bait, but I doubt there's a way to elegantly reword the thing itself to fix that.

[chrome lagoon]

It's something worth keeping in mind but I think my verdict on things like caltrops, fire patches, etc, is that they don't engage with composite armor, and for the purpose of specific "things I place on a map which trigger and explode" that I'm willing to roll javelins into the clause as well, though at best you're going to be doing 1 damage a pop with them

[paper kettle]

Alright, thank you

[sand cairn]

Does Flash Anchor trigger Kutuzov's Parallel Projectors if the reaction happens on turn?

[chrome lagoon]

My understanding of reactions is that they're their own action type, and if not specifically mentioned then they don't count as, say, a free action

so even if we assume it could activate it, as it's neither a free, quick, or full action, the bonus it grants you would be nothing

[sand cairn]

cool ok, thats how I figured it'd worked

thanks!

[livid cargo]

Out of curiosity, approximately how much longer will Winter Scar remain in playtest? I’m curious because I’m running through Solstice Rain with some new players right now, and considering how Winter Scar is a sequel module to Solstice Rain I’m hoping I can submit the experiences of playing Winter Scar immediately after to get some data for a niche group in playtest but will become more common for the full release. But if I don’t finish Solstice Rain before the playtest closes then it doesn’t really matter, now does it?

[chrome lagoon]

the rough guideline estimate is that tom wants to get it out the door (in an ideal world) sometime shortly following the corebook reprint release, which I believe is slated to come out in june

so I would say that at the absolute very least it'll be open for testing for another few months or so, maybe a little more (because no schedule ever survives contact with reality), but the further along things go the less likely I'll be making sweeping changes

I will say I would definitely love to get some feedback on the actual module end of things, I know eld has been interested to see some feedback on the maps and encounters, but I wouldn't want you to push yourself to try and meet a deadline at the expense of your group's enjoyment of things

[livid cargo]

That’s alright, we’re moving through Solstice Rain pretty quickly at one combat/beat per session and 1 session per week, so we should be able to hit Winter Scar soon

[chrome lagoon]

Sure, then in that case you should have time, I don't really anticipate it getting published until somewhere in the July/August vicinity

[livid cargo]

Fair, but I assume playtesting will close well before the module’s full release due to formatting, getting the art, etc

[chrome lagoon]

Not really, the time that things close is layout

[livid cargo]

Oh huh, the more you know

[chrome lagoon]

Basically how the process works is that I'll be (ideally) getting started on commissioning the art soon which will be an ongoing process (since art takes time to make), at a certain point we'll go into copyediting/proofreading which is just text adjustments, typos, formatting, etc, and only when that stage of editing is done (and we have a 100% final text) will it go into layout which is REALLY when I have to stop changing things beyond perhaps the absolute barest minimum like "change this one number to another number"

[livid cargo]

Gotcha

[chrome lagoon]

essentially, we can't go into layout until literally everything else is ready (the complete text, all the art)

I mean we COULD do guesstimate layouts with art blocking reserved in a vacuum, but it's better for mina to know what the art we're using is, how she can fit it to the page, etc

[livid cargo]

My thought process is that if you get feedback on stuff like the maps that you might want to act on and are already commissioning art for it, the feedback would be appreciated sooner than later to avoid having to request too many edits

[chrome lagoon]

That's also a fair point, though depending on the changes it's not actually TOO hard to do, a lot of the adjustments during solstice rain were adjusting overlay stuff rather than redrawing the actual maps, if that makes sense

like making a cover zone bigger, moving deployment zones, etc

plus a lot of the map stuff involved magnus making a bucket of assets he could quickly put together like puzzle pieces rather than hand drawing everything to spec

basically, I would encourage you to give whatever feedback you feel like giving, and the worst case scenario is I may have to say "idk if we can make changes to this because of X"

[livid cargo]

Fair enough. If we manage to get to it I’ll do my best to restrain my feedback to just my thoughts and feelings on the material rather than requests for change, or at the very least keep them separate. I know for a fact I a. Do not have enough experience to give nuanced suggestions, and b. When it comes to feedback suggestions on how to change things are not really helpful compared to just feelings on what was presented. In general.

[chrome lagoon]

I think that thoughts and feelings are fine as an opening to "what could the specific issue be" which in turn is a good way to drill into "should this be changed"

it doesn't have to be like a list of "I think you should move X to Y and have 50% less Z," but "we had trouble approaching this objective point because it felt like the terrain was too crowded" is a good indicator to look at that section of a map and go "huh, is this too crowded, would it work better to remove some obstructions or maybe make an additional route of approach" etc

[livid cargo]

Good to know! Also unrelated to balance but ||I will absolutely be playing Invaders Must Die at some point during the Typhon Raid mission, any preferences for which combat?||

[chrome lagoon]

Two or three seem appropriate

[livid cargo]

Thank you!

[stone hound]

Hello everyone. Does the +3 Heat from expanding a charge of the Thermal Blade is considered as bonus damage ?

[dense temple]

Nope

[stone hound]

Thanks for the answer !

[hasty pollen]

heat isn't damage, so things that can't do bonus damage can still do bonus heat.

[chrome lagoon]

More specifically, bonus damage can only ever be kinetic, explosive, or energy damage, defaulting to kinetic if you deal unspecified bonus damage with something that has no inherent damage of its own (like a grapple)

So you can never deal bonus heat or bonus burn

[obsidian wadi]

Well, you can do bonus Burn - with the Tokugawa, which specifies that's what it does.

[chrome lagoon]

specifics override generals yes, but as a general rule you can't put overpower caliber on a flamethrower and do +1d6 bonus burn

[obsidian wadi]

Yes, this is true.

[dreamy eagle]

I don't know, I think "fight systems" is appropriate for mechs

[livid cargo]

In general yeah, in this context it would imply all mechs with fight systems can fly so I don’t think that’s right

[chrome lagoon]

the latter, the PCs as a whole salvage 2 repairs which they can distribute as they see fit among themselves

[livid cargo]

Gotcha. I felt that was a tad unclear, perhaps a couple words specifying would be helpful?

[dreamy eagle]

you should be spoiling these

[dense temple]

there is a spoiler forum too
https://discord.com/channels/426286410496999425/1196194635341639710

[chrome lagoon]

yeah I think I would prefer that myself

[livid cargo]

My bad, did not even know that forum existed either

Should I delete these? Cause idk how to edit the images to be spoilered

[chrome lagoon]

If you don't mind, sorry

[jaunty condor]

Just want a clarification, if an ultra MBT had argus armour how would it interact with composite armour.

My understanding is because the composite armour is "treat armour being 6 at the front" and argus is set armour to 6, it has 6 armour in every direction but has the benefits of 2 damage reduction in the direction it's facing. Then if it takes structure/stress the front facing armour remains 6 but everything else drops.

(As funny as it would be to have 12 armour in one direction which was my first assumption reading argus armour MBT, that's not how it works) is this the correct way to implement it or is there anything I'm missing?

[pallid girder]

I believe it is probably only meant to affect "the body" yeah

The facing would have 6 armor no matter what

[chrome lagoon]

Coming in to say you have it correct

[livid cargo]

The new O:WS playtest content is no longer available, is that intentional?

[cold badger]

What do you mean ?

I can still download it just fine

[dense temple]

What do you mean not available?
#new-content-resources message

[livid cargo]

Weird, whenever I tried to open the PDFs it always said “this content is no longer available”

Yep, and double checked, the old PDFs are downloadable for me

[chrome lagoon]

I can download every one of the links

and open them

so I don't know what to tell you here

I've had issues with downloads and discord before, I believe I fixed it by quitting out of discord and restarting it, might give that a shot

[livid cargo]

It’s probably on my end :/

[chrome lagoon]

It could be, like I said I'd give rebooting discord a try to start with and see if that doesn't fix anything

[livid cargo]

Yep, just confirmed it was

[silver quiver]

is it intended for Go Loud to proc off allied NPC mechs being destroyed? I know they're not often used. but might be a concern for GMs who like to put them in encounters or players who would take them as reserves.

[chrome lagoon]

The use of allied NPCs isn't really a thing the rules weigh in on one way or another in terms of balance, availability, etc, so Go Loud doesn't really have any sort of provision for or against it. Allied mech characters are allied mech characters

If someone's running a lycan and bringing along allied mech NPCs to feed them into a meatgrinder, for example, that seems like an issue to be addressed at the table

[cold badger]

I mean, at some point the people would just stop volunteering

[silver quiver]

mhmm fair enough. definitely something with narrative consequences at least.

[chrome lagoon]

even beyond narrative consequences, "I'm going to bring a guy along so I can kill them like a 40K commissar" is the sort of thing I think merits an out of character conversation about expectations

if that's the vibe your table is going for then I can't really stop you, but at that point no amount of rules permissiveness is really going to make a difference one way or the other

[jaunty condor]

Wait that just made me think, could you use a lich/lycan combo to detonate the lich every combat and return them back as a way to proc the lycan whenever you want?

[cold badger]

Allied mech characters are allied mech characters

but that still implies playing the entire combat at 1 stress 1 structure

as a lich

so it's risking becoming quite a squishy team

[jaunty condor]

Lycan: "lich, I need the extra fire power!!"
Lich: "On it boss!" Activates reactor meltdown

[chrome lagoon]

This is sort of my thought on the matter, broadly speaking yeah you can do this and it works, but going down to 1 stress/structure to do so is kind of a rough deal in general and I'm not sure if the tradeoff is really worthwhile, but I think that in certain moments it might be a suitably dramatic and effective play, so I'm leaving that qualifier more open-ended, thus far it doesn't really seem to have caused any serious issues in terms of people constantly self-destructing just for the full claw package

[inland tree]

People already get really antsy about being brought down to 2 structure as it is with how often we see horror stories of Direct Hit insta-KOs - I don't think you'd realistically see many people earnestly going for that kind of play

[chrome lagoon]

I can see it being a thing for some hail mary stuff which I'm okay with, I doubt it's going to become some sort of repeat strategy you use every fight

[weak vine]

in my experience people tend to prefer playing the game if possible, unless their sacrifice is either extremely funny, extremely advantageous, or some mix of both

so i cant imagine its somethin to be too worried about

[slim dove]

Briareos Frame Lich: "Allow me to introduce myself."

[potent girder]

Fortunately lich pilots are at the top of the list of people willing to sacrifice themselves for the bit

[shrewd stratus]

Can you take other protocols before Convergence Point? Specifically for choosing an ally to act now

[chrome lagoon]

It's like any other protocol, it doesn't have a particular bespoke timing

if you use it and choose an ally to act ahead of you it does immediately cut the rest of your turn off and put it into stasis until their turn is completed

so you can't use it, nominate an ally to go now, then use six more protocols

[shrewd stratus]

Ah alrighty, thank you

[chrome lagoon]

but you could use a couple other protocols, then use convergence point

[cold badger]

But could you use a protocol, then activate convergence point, have the ally complete their turn, and when it comes back to yours then use other protocols ?

It seems logical to me that you could, but I still want to make sure

[mighty elm]

by the same logic I’d assume so

[dreamy eagle]

Is an Anti-Armor Rocket (SPEAR Charges) a Ranged Attack for the purposes of the Enkidu's restrictions thereof?

Actually, just "using SPEAR Charges in general".

[gritty crest]

Nah. Attacks make attack rolls. If something just says an enemy makes a save, it's not an attack

[chrome lagoon]

It's not an attack, no, it's a grenade/mine system

[barren pewter]

It's a Really Reachy Grenade...yes, that

[chrome lagoon]

neither are frag grenades, havok charges, etc

[dreamy eagle]

🙂

[chrome lagoon]

you don't even need to go three levels into gilgamesh, roller charges off the barbarossa give you 1d6+3 damage out to an effective range 10 with a bunch of knockback as well, I feel that they're a pretty slept-on "non attack" option

[dreamy eagle]

on one hand, yes

on the other, superthermal blade is very, very good for a specific concept

behold: hell creature

[ LICENSES ]
  HA Tokugawa 3, IPS-N Tortuga 1, IPS-N CALIBAN 2, HA Gilgamesh 3
[ CORE BONUSES ]
  Superior by Design, Gyges Frame, Integrated Ammo Feeds
[ TALENTS ]
  Leader 3, Duelist 3, Hunter 3, Nuclear Cavalier 2, PANKRATI 2
[ STATS ]
  HULL:5 AGI:4 SYS:0 ENGI:2
  STRUCTURE:4 HP:25 ARMOR:1
  STRESS:4 HEATCAP:12 REPAIR:7
  TECH ATK:-2 LIMITED:+3
  SPD:5 EVA:12 EDEF:8 SENSE:5 SAVE:15
[ WEAPONS ]
  Integrated: Plasma Talons
  FLEX MOUNT: Torch
  FLEX MOUNT: Superthermal Blade
[ SYSTEMS ]
  ADJUTANT-Class Comp/Con, SPEAR Charges x5, External Batteries, HARDPOINT REINFORCEMENT```

(you can make a more normal version of this at LL6, but HELL CREATURE reaches its full potential with Threat 5 plasma talons and loitering munitions)

[pure willow]

Horrors of war lookin' ahh mech

[humble mural]

Did the Legionnaire Battle Rifle’s range get reduced to 12 again? I see a mention in the changelog that the range was increased at some point, but the v1.4 pdf says range 12.

[chrome lagoon]

probably just a dumb error on my part

[viscid mortar]

I'm not sure where else to ask this;

Is there any ETA on release / how finished is Winter Scar? Me and my friends are really chomping at the bit, and we're trying to figure out when we'll be able to dive in. If the story/narrative/encounters are finished, we might just get schmooving early.

[chrome lagoon]

Tom wants to try and have it published sometime mid to late summer

I would not expect the narrative to change a lot between now and then

[viscid mortar]

Interesting, interesting... we might just go as-is, then!

[pallid girder]

There should be everything you need for it!

The maps I did blocking for aren't fancy but they should work!

[viscid mortar]

I've managed to whip my friend group into a mech-fueled frenzy and I'm not confident I could keep the hype as high as it is now until then!

[dusk widget]

was just looking at the Kutuzov and realized that Bolster isnt an action? so its kind of ambiguous whether you can Full Tech bolster/(something else) to get the Full Action benefit from Parallel Projectors

intuitively that feels like it Should give the quick action benefit but yknow

it is not a quick action at all!

[chrome lagoon]

bolster is a quick action

like, I'm not sure what the actual point being made here is, sorry

lancer is fine subdividing the Quick Tech action into specific components for the variety of prerequisites and action triggers, hence the Spotter 2 talent specifically requiring you to use the Lock On action as opposed to just applying Lock On generically (such as via a blackspot targeting laser or something)

[dusk widget]

so what happens if you bolster twice with a full tech?

[chrome lagoon]

the question of "what bonus do you get off Parallel Projectors if you do a Full Tech action and use that to take one or two separate quick actions that could proc it, i.e. 2x Bolster or 1x Emperor Shield Quick Tech + Lock On or etc" has been raised before and my answer is that you get the Quick Action bonus, if you want the Full Action bonus you need to commit to something that takes an entire full action

[dusk widget]

neat

(also Spotter specifies Lock On Quick Tech in the one instance where it specifies an action)

[chrome lagoon]

yeah but that doesn't change the fact that the game regards Lock On as an action distinct unto itself

Bolster is in the same ballpark, hence Bolster is for all intents and purposes a quick action

same would go for Scan, etc

[dreamy eagle]

Actually, Kai, while you're here: the Kutuzov can disengage itself with respect to Ordnance weapons by using the GMS projected shield before shooting, right?

[chrome lagoon]

Do you mean via Expulsion Zone?

[dreamy eagle]

Yep.

[chrome lagoon]

Yeah that should work. It's a protocol (allowed to be done via ordnance) and it's not the Kutuzov itself moving

[dusk widget]

(core book and comp/con both label quicktech options as such and not as independent actions)

[dreamy eagle]

Good, good. The Sniper Kutuzov build gets progressively more deranged yet competent at the same time.

[chrome lagoon]

once again, the wording does not preclude the point that "bolster isn't a quick action" is not correct, thanks

that is the only point I am addressing here

[dreamy eagle]

ah, also - does a Protocol count as a Free Action for the sake of the Kutuzov core passive?

I assume no, but just checking.

[chrome lagoon]

It does count

Page 73

The most common type of free action is a PROTOCOL

[dreamy eagle]

👁️ interesting

[chrome lagoon]

like, the type-3 shield is pretty much the only protocol shield anything in the game as far as I'm aware so I went into the kutuzov knowing someone could constantly keep hitting that button, which is why the free action bonus is weighed as it is, it's a pretty free way to proc expulsion zone as well but I'm also not tremendously worried about that either given the frame isn't exactly a combat powerhouse

It's 100% a thing you can build around and there's probably some weird shit you can get up to with it but I'm uncertain there's something too abusive lurking behind that interaction

I actually think the nastier tech was what someone was talking about where you use Imperial Eye off the Emperor in conjunction with Expulsion Zone to tag an ally with the disruptive charge, then knock an enemy into proximity with that ally and immediately trigger it (because it has no "arming time")

[dreamy eagle]

You're correct insofar as that being nastier, but I've sadly got no room for Emperor shields on this build.

Paracausal sniper rifle, ENCLAVE, and NOAH already eat up damn near everything.

[chrome lagoon]

which rifle?

Vulture?

or is this a "technically the displacer is a rifle" thing

[dreamy eagle]

Dustgrave is my friend 🙂

in all seriousness, this thing -- HA Kutuzov @ LL9 -- [ LICENSES ] HA Napoleon 2, HA Saladin 3, IPS-N Raleigh 2, HA Sherman 2 [ CORE BONUSES ] Superheavy Mounting, Superior by Design, Armory-Sculpted Chassis [ TALENTS ] Crack Shot 3, Grease Monkey 3, HOUSE GUARD 3, Nuclear Cavalier 2, Skirmisher 1 [ STATS ] HULL:6 AGI:0 SYS:0 ENGI:5 STRUCTURE:4 HP:23 ARMOR:2 STRESS:4 HEATCAP:15 REPAIR:6 TECH ATK:0 LIMITED:+2 SPD:4 EVA:8 EDEF:10 SENSE:5 SAVE:16 [ WEAPONS ] SUPERHEAVY MOUNT: “Sting” Heavy Anti-Armor Rifle (Paracausal Mod) MAIN/AUX MOUNT: SUPERHEAVY WEAPON BRACING [ SYSTEMS ] ENCLAVE-Pattern Support Shield, NOAH-Class NHP, Type-3 Projected Shield, Armament Redundancy

[chrome lagoon]

ah okay

[dreamy eagle]

there's a non-exotic version that shuffles some things around to use CPR and RSU instead, but that doesn't get the funny expulsion zone interaction.

[chrome lagoon]

I was wondering if it would be a superheavy weapon deal because I was like wait, I don't remember dustgrave adding a sniper rifle

[dreamy eagle]

Yeah, the ideal case is to have Sting Kutuzov paired up with a Bonded + Spotter Swallowtail or something

Kutuzov lays down the fire and the protection, the buddy hands out the support

[spring spindle]

Hi! I recently heard about an unofficial community patch for Winter Scar. Does anyone know where to find it or who made it? I'm interested in taking a peek.

[pallid girder]

a community patch?

you don't mean the latest update right?

[round gorge]

A community patch over unreleased content is very strange, and not something I've heard of

Also not something the official creators of it are liable to give you answers on

[dreamy eagle]

I assume as in a TF Indigo uniform patch

[inland tree]

Seems weirdly early to do something like that, thing's not even out

[dreamy eagle]

in which case it's probably in the narrative/spoilers thread

[inland tree]

Like a literal patch for a character's uniform?

[dreamy eagle]

That's the interpretation that makes sense, yeah

[limber holly]

...do they mean unofficial LCP???

[inland tree]

Ahhhh

[inland tree]

If there's a mixup, then yeah, that might be it

[spring spindle]

Right, I heard that there was an unofficial LCP made to balance a few things and I thought this would be the best place to look for it.

[dreamy eagle]

that's... extremely weird

[opaque yew]

This is an in development first party project

The LCP is weird and unnecessary

[mighty elm]

yeah, if someone wanted to address the balance of it the thing to do atm would be…… giving feedback, because it’s in development

[dreamy eagle]

What "things" even need balance at the moment, other than maybe some of the Exotics?

[round gorge]

I mean I get finding something unbalanced and making homebrew hot fixes for your table, but to publish that in public and advertise it would be... unnecessary, if not a little rude

[bold yacht]

It seems directly counter to the purpose of playtesting to me

[inland tree]

It's not unheard of to share house rule tweaks for official content, people have done their fair share of that on this very server - what's weird is doing that for content that is in development and actively soliciting feedback, like if you think something needs to be tweaked, now is the time to make that heard with the people actively developing the thing

[bright cypress]

I'm assuming it's due to the weird community of haters Kai has

They're mostly in their own server though

[chrome lagoon]

Oh buddy, it's definitely more than one server

[bright cypress]

I mostly see them in the ban log and rarely on the Reddit

though I think I've seen them on the Retrograde server too

but I'd bet a lot of money they didn't playtest before publishing a "patch"

[chrome lagoon]

also to be clear, this is hopefully actually being illustrated

[chrome lagoon]

huh okay well I guess that explains the "unofficial balance patch" thing then

yknow, this seems like a pretty good time to bring something up that I have brought up before but I feel given the circumstances bears restating: taking feedback does not mean "everyone's feedback will 100% be incorporated"

I've told this before but I gave tom a lot of feedback and suggestions while lancer was in playtesting, and about 90% of it never got even close to being used, that is simply the nature of the game, and I hope that it's understood (for this module and others as well) that giving feedback is not a guarantee that changes will be made along the lines you think they should be made

I have read every bit of feedback on winter scar I have been given, and I have made a pretty good amount of changes to things based on it. I have not incorporated, nor will I incorporate, literally every piece of feedback I have been given

If people want to patch it, ban it at their tables, whatever, that's their prerogative, but I would like to clarify in case it is unclear what the nature of the playtesting/feedback giving process is, which is not "my suggestions didn't get used, time to get weird about it"

[pallid girder]

Can I add on something to this too?
While it doesn't make it a guarantee, being nice and open about feedback makes it a lot more likely that the author will be willing to hear you out.
Someone being pushy about feedback or pushing back too hard against the person that gets the feedback not agreeing right away does generally make it harder to actually want to consider that feedback.
We're people and personally i'm much more likely to listen to feedback on my end of stuff if people aren't being weird and pushy about it, that actually makes me want to listen less, while someone who stays calm and reasonable about it i'm much more likely to take seriously and actually engage with to get to the bottom of that feedback

[warm lark]

I originally made a comment for reference, but I've been asked to avoid doing so.

Persons involved don't want any drama and just want to chill, so that's what I'll respect.

[main wren]

So this is called "brigadeing" and is being an asshole

[warm lark]

I'll avoid doing so in the future. Apologies.

Going forward, I'll bring concerns directly to the administration in a more peaceable manner.

[hollow tundra]

can I ask questions about the Lycan alt frame here?

[mighty elm]

this would be the place, yeah

[hollow tundra]

so, with the themes of Lycan being used for covert operations and messing with systems in order to obscure itself, with traits like interference field and power flux, and then the notes of it switching into a more aggressive yet fragile form, why is the core power based on a integrated superheavy weapon that gets stronger with being structured or stressed or having allies be structured or stressed?

[chrome lagoon]

because that's part of the aggressive yet fragile form

I don't understand the question

the lycan is not a "stealth frame" it is a "pretend I'm not a manticore until I have an opportunity to rip someone's head off" frame

As a result, the Lycan excels at ambush and counter-ambush tactics, capable of masquerading as a more conventional chassis until the opportunity presents itself, then shedding its baffle-lined outer carapace and shifting into a hyper-aggressive close-combat mode in order to dispatch its targets.

it powers up with people taking damage A). to create a bit of a "rubber banding" effect with its use where popping the claws early is doable but waiting until the situation is a little more dire gives you more punch and B). because I think it's cool

[hollow tundra]

fair, its more disruption and guerilla tactics rather than stealth ops

[sharp lagoon]

Yeah, it's only "stealth" by virtue of not being spotted 4 morbillion miles away like the normal Manticore

[chrome lagoon]

The point of the Lycan is that Manticores are undeniably Manticores, in a world where horus mechs are non-standardized pattern-groups the Manticore is probably the one that is most immediately recognizable because it's a walking meltdown-primed reactor wreathed in dangerous electromagnetics and lightning storms

You cannot bring a Manticore on a mission and pretend "oh I'm just a normal mech"

(obviously flavor-wise in your own games you can do what you like)

the Lycan exists basically to put a mask and raincoat over the Manticore and go "no sir I am an extremely normal electronic warfare frame, don't mind the weird power fluctuations" and then at an opportune moment you go "SURPRISE!" and eat someone

[whole sable]

I'm not involved in this conversation, but love the way you phrased that.

[chrome lagoon]

mechanically the lycan is somewhat derived from a 4E berserker class which similarly begins play during each combat as a Defender and then turns into more of a Striker, the difference being that the berserker didn't get to choose whether or not to do that, and also the effect was fairly negligible (it was like "add a d8/d10 of damage to your at-will attacks)

[hollow tundra]

honestly this question popped up because in another Lancer server, a few people really don't like how the core power is implemented.

for me, honestly I think its a little powerful, but compared to the Manticore's core power, its less bang for buck and more sustainable dps, and me seeing the traits mentioned before (power flux and interference field respectively) makes me immediately think about the EMP pulse system and how its a high risk high reward system similar to Go Loud here, the difference being fully committing to a superheavy barrage multiple times and stunning yourself to stun everyone else adjacent to you

not trying to start a argument, I see what you mean about the Beserker class and hiding that fact till it "Goes Loud", I just see the parallels to EMP pulse and wonder what if

sorry, thats a bit much

[chrome lagoon]

It's not a bit much but I'm going to level with you: "a few people on another lancer server don't like this" is not really something I am interested in engaging with

I am extremely aware at this point that people talk a lot of shit about the stuff I make elsewhere

if they have problems with it they are free to bring it to me themselves, or not, either way

[hollow tundra]

yeah, thats fair, that conversation just got me thinking on other ideas like a core power version of EMP pulse or something else cause Go Loud sounds genuinely cool and fits with the theme of werewolf

wait what did I just say?

[chrome lagoon]

to give some additional context: the lycan originally used to power the claws up by taking structure or stress itself, and this was changed to working off allies taking damage due to the fact that in testing this was resulting in what seemed to be a fairly unengaging dynamic where GMs simply did not want to interact with the lycan, so to make things more dynamic I switched it around to something a bit more reminiscent of the Avenger NPC, so that there now exists more of a tradeoff (you can attack the Lycan, or you can attack its friends and maybe power the Lycan up) and so that there's more to do with tactical positioning (since the Lycan wants to be within sensors of allies who get chunked, and this provides more avenues for things like counterplay, etc)

[hollow tundra]

interesting point! so its a bit of a similar dynamic to Gorgon, except with a bit more "disrupting systems" instead of "you attack my allies, you get shot MULTIPLE TIMES", and gives a way to just focus down the Lycan when it goes loud, cause it loses its main defensive trait, and fits with the theme of lycanthropy pretty damn well!

[chrome lagoon]

Also if a Defender gets shot up instead of its allies (because maybe the GM doesn't want to power the claws up) that's pretty much Defender 101

every bit of damage you take instead of your allies is essentially a role win

[weak vine]

the way i've tended to put it is that defenders make enemies take lose/lose situations in order to interact with you and your allies, usually by making the process of attacking allies some degree of more difficult and precarious, and attacking the defender itself mitigated by whatever defensive traits it has

[hollow tundra]

im honestly just conflicted on the difference between the mechanics consistency vs thematic consistency, cause I like the idea of a big fuck off EMP blast that temporarily disables your Slag carapce like Go Loud to have you and your allies follow up on big tech attacks and taking advantage of your enemies compromised systems

but obviously Werewolves don't do that

big claws you get from hurt allies just makes more thematic sense

[chrome lagoon]

From my perspective I don't usually design with thematic consistency as much of a major consideration, because while there are lancer mechs which definitely lean into things more (the gorgon using a weird stare to fuck people up, the minotaur and its "maze" effects, etc) a lot of them are also just kind of unconcerned with it (the pegasus which shoots guns real good and has control over probability), and the mechanical thing I was aiming for with the Lycan was "Defender that can turn into more of a Striker as a mid-combat switch"

there are a lot of ways to approach things from a thematic-into-mechanics perspective, there's like a zillion werewolf/lycanthrope legends and myths and pop culture references

the pegasus could have been an aerial frame, the goblin could have been a sneaky backstabber

tom had, a long time ago, hinted at a horus werewolf/lycan frame (which never went anywhere beyond vague thoughts) which, as he described it, would have been a melee hacker that infected people with a "confusion virus" (how would that work? no idea)

[hollow tundra]

like the Shock claws could of been "Infectious" by letting you invade someone when you hit them with the claws........

though in its current state would be overstuffing the core power currently

[chrome lagoon]

I will say that I considered "what if the claws let you melee hack" but my take on the matter is twofold in this case:
1). that actually doesn't play as well with some of the manticore's own in-license hacks, things like smite work okay but then you have stuff like beckon which are counterproductive because beckon is a gap closer and if you're in melee range you don't need to close that gap
1.5). actually also since the Lycan loses slag carapace when it goes loud, all the manticore hacks which deal self-damage now hurt way, way worse, further disincentivizing their use
2). opening that weapon up to letting you use hacks in general means having to consider every other hack available for people as well, so how well do a hack-melee shock claws play with stuff like Horos_1 or Viral Logic Suite or whatever, there's probably some cool combos there but also a lot of variables that I simply don't have the time to adequately shake out or inclination to open the doors to

[barren pewter]

It also I imagine runs into 'that would be less Striker, more Controller'.

As full damage and hacking would be bonus action economy

[hollow tundra]

thats fair, maybe something more like shredding enemies systems/e defense to let allies hack them better or giving some sort of condition other than slowed and impaired on hit would work better? but I understand that half of beckoner doesn't work really well here and the self damage would be detrimental given its now vulnerable state (though summon would kick ass here, if beckoner would be the only thing to consider) and figuring out all the kinks of a hack melee shock claws would be a ordeal that more fits into a unique frame/license idea rather than a Manticore alt

[chrome lagoon]

I mean I could see it working okay as a striker, but given everything else I think it would pretty seriously overload things, and it would also call into question the dynamic of "remaining in defender mode versus popping the claws"

I say this having made a homebrew melee hacker whose whole thing is "hit you with a big punch that lets you hack people too"

I think it's a very fun design space, but I also think it works better when it stands alone as its own thing and that's all it does

[hollow tundra]

yeah, unfortunately the hack melee idea likely is better reserved for a unique frame rather than stuffing it into the Lycan, and I wanted to sort of look into something that was more "infectious debuff" rather than "enormous amounts of damage", but melee hackin aint it here

[serene plume]

this melee hacker concept sounds remarkably like the String of Pearls in Heaven Will Be Mine and I love it, even if its mostly a concept that never went anywhere lol

[chrome lagoon]

I know a few people have done lycan/werewolf horus frames of their own, though I generally try not to look at other peoples' homebrew these days (out of courtesy so there isn't any sort of "is this person looking at my stuff to rip my ideas off?" concern) so I don't really know how they work, but I'm sure people have done some interesting takes on the concept

[hollow tundra]

im just thumbs upping everything, aren't I

lmao, thats good

Im sort of curious, Kai, have you ever looked into a weapon/system that lowered the E defense of a attacked target?

[chrome lagoon]

I don't think I've ever made anything along those lines, no. I think stat debuffs like that in lancer are in an awkward spot because either time to kill is extremely low (i.e. lowering the e-defense on a normal NPC probably won't super matter as much because their expected lifespan isn't long enough to capitalize on it) or because doing so on something like an Ultra could easily result in "lower its e-defense and then heatgun it to death regardless of which NPC class it is" tactics

probably the closest lancer gets to something like that is Shredded, which is functionally "reduce armor to 0" but the "can't gain resistance" is probably the more tangible and impactful part of that condition

[serene plume]

isnt it also just easier to give an accuracy bonus rather than a defense penalty in most situations?

[hollow tundra]

yeah, thats fair, I was just trying to think of a way to make the Lycan's shock claws powerful other than large amounts of damage,

[dreamy eagle]

they are powerful

and, honestly

lancer is a game that's very up-front about the fact that the best defense/control/support is "the enemy is Extremely Dead"

there's a reason why I make builds for things like Sunzi or Kutuzov that are also very good controllers or supports but have most of their actual uptime based around dealing 4-8d6 paracausal to someone

[chrome lagoon]

also: the tempest charged blade now exists and can be put on any mech in the game

via a core bonus at most

tom has also relayed in the past that his take on integrated weapons is that they should, for their size, get to be punchier and juicier than the stuff that goes on mounts because otherwise why bother

I have also made a lot of tweaks and adjustments to the lycan over five drafts now, including multiple changes to the core power to situate it in a suitable and stable place

so to sort of bring this back around to where this whole discussion started:
1). people on other servers disliking stuff I make is not something that particularly moves me, I'm gonna be honest
2). there's a whole forum here for people to give feedback on things in development if they feel that strongly about it
3). a lot of people probably have a lot of takes and ideas on how I could, or in their estimation should, change things, but "open for feedback" does not equal "all feedback will be incorporated" and people who give feedback should be copacetic with that

also also: tom has been aware of the ongoing development of everything in winter scar every step of the way

he has given me plenty of feedback of his own, a lot of which has been incorporated or taken into account

at no point has he choked on his drink and gone "oh my god this is so far beyond the pale it's unacceptable, it needs to be changed immediately"

he's not someone who minces words when it comes to offering his takes on things and he has offered plenty

Now I do not think "well tom said/didn't say" equals some badge of unassailable quality, but if there's any impression that I'm simply doing whatever I feel like without any oversight from the guy whose name goes on the paycheck, that isn't the case

[hollow tundra]

sorry about bringing up other people in the first place, I honestly just wanted to present my own opinons on the shock claws, and wanted to mention the influences on me coming here, not make it a point amongst discussing balancing a core power that has gone through lots of tweaks and adjustments

[dreamy eagle]

honestly, what today has mostly come out as is "there are a bunch of people who find elements of OWS unacceptable but won't actually say what they are or what about them they find objectionable"

which is the kind of thing that makes the game designer part of my brain itch

[chrome lagoon]

also even if some elements are specifically stated to be unacceptable for one reason or another, I may not abide by it

I've brought this up before too: I had, during solstice rain playtesting, some comments to the effect of "the chomolungma is bad, I think it needs to be scrapped and remade"

[unkempt jewel]

In truth, this doesn't sound right in the slightest. Yes, the destruction of enemies helps, but the fact that Lancer goes out of its way to distinguish that these are different given roles with different functionalities says it's not the be-all and end-all. On one hand, it is awesome you can build a frame that's nominally a 'support' or a 'control' to do oodles of irreducible damage, and there's no fault in doing so, but on the other, if that's the case why even bother differentiate the different roles? You've basically got an Artillery with the ability to shuffle people around on occasion now.

Anyway this is besides the point of this thread

[chrome lagoon]

pretty forthright in that regard, but I'm not going to toss something out and rebuild it because someone thinks it's bad or unsalvageable through their personal lens of how they view the game

[dreamy eagle]

The Chomolungma is certainly one of the frames of all time, but my only serious objection to it is with the name

You can't type out Chomolungma every time and any way you shorten it has disturbing, amusing, or both connotations

[sour fable]

If I can be frank, having read some of the concerns in other servers, a lot of people are afraid to comment here on their concerns with the content because

1. bad experiences with Kai (I am making no comment on this being true or otherwise)
2. feeling like they’ll get banned from PNet for questioning the orthodoxy.

They feel like Kai having power in the server means that if Kai doesn’t like what he’s hearing, it will be taken as a personal attack (which can be valid) and be met with retaliation.

[shrewd stratus]

Yeah I think Lycan's a bit too far into development for new things like "entire new condition on hit" to be added haha

[hollow tundra]

yeah, I think I came in here with the hope of having Nuanced conversation on this without knowing the full story and having been influenced by other people's thoughts and perspectives on things when I wanted to go in with my own clear perspective and thoughts on things

[chrome lagoon]

and yet I have read and taken every bit of feedback given here into consideration without going "mods, have this person banned"

frankly, this sounds like some bullshit

[hollow tundra]

and Lycan is cool in a lot of aspects, me trying to influence that isn't really good without taking previously said things into account, and I just prefer for conversation to be civil and not have much emotional arguing and assuming things about other people

[shrewd stratus]

Yeah, but they don't know that, if you have one bad experience with someone it's reasonable to extrapolate a bit

[dreamy eagle]

I've had some rather sharp disagreements with Kai over BG balance before, and I'm still here

to wit: if you aren't at least transmitting your opinions to a messenger to put them in official channels, there's no possible route to have them incorporated into the dev process

[sour fable]

It’s reactions like this that have led to this belief. (Again, not a criticism.)

[chrome lagoon]

excuse me?

how exactly am I supposed to react to "people won't give feedback because they have unspecified grievances with you"

like, what is my takeaway supposed to be here

[sour fable]

I came in to say what I am hearing from people
Immediately told that’s bull

That was me acknowledging that the well has some poison in it

[shrewd stratus]

I'm gonna be real with you king, I love you, but your bluntness is probably the reason people are afraid of you

[chrome lagoon]

you're telling me people I don't know have grievances against me that I have no context for and I'm supposed to take it on faith that this is all entirely justified

[shrewd stratus]

I know you're a good person, others might not

[chrome lagoon]

I am allowed to say that's bullshit, sorry

This is not a customer service job

[sour fable]

Im not saying it’s justified or not; just that that’s the perception

[hollow tundra]

cause this whole thing I talked about started cause I wanted to see gilgamesh allowed in a server I play lancer on that already uses a lot of homebrew, and Winter Scar wasn't for everyone on that server, meaning Gilgamesh was left out, and talks about why winter scar was left out left me frustrated, leading to me trying to talk out things here

[dreamy eagle]

that does explain some things

[sour fable]

I’m not here to fight.

[dreamy eagle]

though "lycan bad so no gilgamesh" is ????

[chrome lagoon]

And me saying "frankly that's bullshit" is not me picking a fight

[sour fable]

Can’t speak to that

[hollow tundra]

that was more to try and prevent LCP bloat because a lot of homebrew is being used on the server already and that not using a lot of a LCP to just a get a good frame or 2 could lead to more system load, basically it came down to more technical issues than specific frames being banned and other fine frames being caught in the crossfire

[dreamy eagle]

average westmarch moment

[hollow tundra]

yeah

[sour fable]

Though I will say that the general agreement on the server I GM for is that - because the Lycan is so powerful in a West March style game and controlling content by .lcp files is basically our only tool to prevent players from picking the Lycan - we’re probably not gonna allow Winter Scar

[hollow tundra]

I already experienced my account shitting myself, and some system issues are still persisting, and im willing to bet its partially because of how much homebrew I use

[chrome lagoon]

which is fine, I'm not here to tell people they have to use anything they don't want to

[hollow tundra]

yeah thats fine

[sour fable]

(As for why the Lycan is powerful, there’s only one combat so the Lycan’s core becomes an every combat button)

[chrome lagoon]

well it IS an every combat button

it's an efficient core power

[sour fable]

Oh, good to know

[hollow tundra]

its just Gilgamesh, a frame that I frankly FUCKING LOVE TO DEATH gets caught in the crossfire of winterscar being banned

[sour fable]

Not in my home game either I guess lol

[hollow tundra]

I wish Gilgamesh was in its own LCP then

[dreamy eagle]

I also heavily recommend 2-3 combats per mission on a WM anyway, because otherwise these attrition things will be hugely skewed

[sour fable]

Our missions tend to be 1 narrative scene, 1 combat scene with a combat lasting from 4 to 8 rounds depending on sit rep

[sour fable]

I like the Napoleon alt myself

[pallid girder]

I feel like what I’ve heard from other servers in terms of what they give feedback wise isn’t just folks being "concerned" tbh but taking it past this

[hollow tundra]

yeah

[pallid girder]

We have a history here of other server kinda brigading us also as well as specific users here

[sour fable]

I have read some very colorful language regarding the Lycan

[opaque yew]

I'm frankly kinda confused at the Lycan core being called too good when it gives up all of its incredible defence for more speed and a slightly above rate Superheavy, which a lot of people are very quick to call a bad weapon type

[pallid girder]

I have heard it extends past the lycan and towards kai

And you gotta understand when people cross that line that’s not really acceptable

[hollow tundra]

that is unfortunate to hear Jester, I wish some people could approach things with more nuance and try and actually TALK with Kai rather than just talking behind people's backs

[chrome lagoon]

so you understand why I might say something like "this is bullshit" and raise an eyebrow when the whole "too aggro" thing seems to flow only in one direction

[rotund plover]

So, I'd like to clarify a couple of things.

a) Coming in to say "oh a bunch of people have personal experiences that make them hate Kai, and it's comments like this that make people do that" is a personal attack, you can't claim detachment here.

b) We don't have an "orthodoxy" here, whatever you're trying to claim. What we do have is some basic standards regarding how people are expected to interact with others and respect them. This also means coming in to post this sort of falsely-detached grandstand sucks, horrendously.

c) It's frankly insulting to present this as something to do with Kai's position as a curator. Candidly? He doesn't have the power to do this sort of thing, that's not what curators do. They're there to watch out for and help manage the space, and the mods are here to get in and solve it when things get bad. And as someone who has been doing a fair few of the bans for things like this, I (and the mod team) are doing it with the full understanding that this sort of tone and interaction pattern is unacceptable to any user, no matter how many people you think say it's cool to bully Kai.

Cut that shit out. You and anyone reading this with similar inclinations.

[hollow tundra]

I myself do have my gripes with shock claws, but its more "trade some of the damage for a interesting side affect for a frame thats called Lycan for a reason"

[sour fable]

I’m sorry; my only intent here was to communicate the general feelings in a constructive way to try and resolve some of the tension

[hollow tundra]

yeah, its why I try to keep other people's opinions's out of this and go in with my own here

[rotund plover]

This pattern has gone on far too long, and from my perspective as a mod, Kai is put in a uniquely disadvantaged position, where people try to insist that it's cool to treat him like this, when, if someone did this in, say, #homebrew-design, people would be calling it out immediately.

[chrome lagoon]

I mean I dunno man, constantly being told "people in some other server think your stuff sucks and is bad and they're gonna ban it" doesn't exactly resolve a lot of tension if I'm being honest

it also does not feel like a productive venue for any meaningful discussion or feedback

[hollow tundra]

and Im sorry for bringing that up in the first place Kai

[rotund plover]

That was a stupid intention whose only purpose is to conjure up a phantom mob to try to bully a user. Do not do that. There is no definition in any world where this is constructive, polite, or even remotely acceptable conduct.

[chrome lagoon]

if people on other servers think my stuff sucks shit and they don't want to use it in their games, that's their prerogative, but it does not predispose me to go "oh man I should try to build some bridges"

[rotund plover]

Honestly, from my assessment as a mod, I think you did good

[shrewd stratus]

Aye that's fair, apologies if I walked over the line as well

[rotund plover]

It's a bit of a sore point because we get people coming in like this, but, you discussed your own experiences and perspectives, and you listened to and responded to what people were saying, and that's what makes a good conversation

[rotund plover]

Frankly, you rather did

[pallid girder]

Yeah no worries NP this isn’t about you, you were fine and constructive about it

[chrome lagoon]

It also feels a little like "I'm not touching you!" to be told this and expect to maintain some constant level of zen detachment, especially considering that at no point in this playtest process have I taken anybody's feedback with anything other than politeness and due consideration

[hollow tundra]

thank you Im so glad to hear this considering it was much of a sore point for me in the server Im in to have essentially banned a frame I love by proxy to a LCP which wouldn't do much in the server and would cause bloat!

[sour fable]

That was not my intention, but I understand that I have no way to prove that. I apologize for any distress caused.

[shrewd stratus]

Sorry again, I should not have jumped directly into discourse upon waking up

[rotund plover]

To clarify - your intention barely matters here. This is what you did, and it's a bad pattern of conversation no matter what you intended. Don't do that again, here or anywhere.

[hollow tundra]

yeah, I agree with Ru here, given what ive seen on the matter

[shrewd stratus]

Again, sorry for the trouble, should probably eat now before I do anything else dumb

So uhm, anyways

What's the current state on the frame art? Talking to artists? Sketches?

[hollow tundra]

ooh yeah!

[chrome lagoon]

Art right now is in the "everyone has been talked to" stage and sent visual inspo, directions, etc

I've had some sketches and thumbnails sent back for things but none on frame art

[shrewd stratus]

Ooooh nice nice

[bright cypress]

How's the Lycan art going to work, if you have any idea

pre or post transformation?

[shrewd stratus]

(Also personally sorry for what I said, don't like making people uncomfortable, sorry)

[chrome lagoon]

The artist who's going to be illustrating the player-facing mechs is Theotime Galmiche who you may know from No Room for a Wallflower

[hollow tundra]

yesss Gilgamesh is gonna be depicted soon!

[chrome lagoon]

I'm giving him notes one at a time because dropping four at once seems counterproductive

[dense temple]

woooooo Theo does great work

[chrome lagoon]

first up is the Gilgamesh

[shrewd stratus]

Oh shit Theo

[chrome lagoon]

half and half

[bright cypress]

oh, I follow Theo on twitter

[shrewd stratus]

OH

[bright cypress]

nice

look forward to seeing it

[chrome lagoon]

all of the artists from Solstice Rain will be returning for Winter Scar

[shrewd stratus]

As in like, in the middle of activating core?

[shrewd stratus]

Peyton innit

[chrome lagoon]

https://vxtwitter.com/Gee0Man/status/1769865226336588078 in particular, my go-to gunslinger Peyton Gee will be returning to not just handle interior art, he will also be doing the cover this time around as well

[chrome lagoon]

yeah that's the plan

I have some particular stage directions in mind, we'll see if we can make it work

[shrewd stratus]

Oh he cooking

[dense temple]

official Everest art..... 2!

[shrewd stratus]

...Huh I vaguely remember, didn't Tom make all the cover art for the previous wave or did I hallucinate that up

[dense temple]

wait is that a pilebunker

[dense temple]

Siege did Solstice Rain i think

[chrome lagoon]

he did solstice rain and dustgrave, siege did SSMR

[dense temple]

no SSMR

other S module

[shrewd stratus]

Ah right

[chrome lagoon]

Tom said he wanted to step back from doing the covers this time since he's got a bunch of stuff on his plate

EM Fields, Juan Gee Tan, and Gwen Williamson (who is now going by Elizabeth Brewer) will also be returning to provide interior illustrations

[shrewd stratus]

Damn one of the artists transitioned between projects? Good for her

[hexed juniper]

with the bounder comp/con in relation to Vanguard, if I shoot a target at Range 3 of an object I'm bouncing the shot off of, does it ignore cover?

[chrome lagoon]

No, range extensions and remote shot placement doesn't affect things like that, or let you bypass hyperdense armor's restrictions, those are measured from you the mech

[hexed juniper]

So with the Amber Phantom

Let's say as a protocol I activate my projected shield and also my rifle steady aim. Then I activate my core power and let someone else go before me.

Does that shield and steady aim end when it's my turn in the turn order, or does it continue on to my turn in the next round?

[chrome lagoon]

When you activate the amber phantom's core power and elect to have someone else go ahead of you, your turn is basically put "on hold"

and then when the other person's turn ends, your turn picks up from there

this doesn't really affect the duration of when things end, the continuance of your turn which you put on hold is not "your next turn"

[hexed juniper]

ah neat. so let's say I'm immobilised then from steadying aim. If I have flank and I shoot it when ally takes a turn during that core power, I still benefit from steadying aim, right?

[chrome lagoon]

Yes, keeping in mind that any 1/round stuff you spend will still be spent for the round when your turn resumes

[hexed juniper]

cool

[chrome lagoon]

You can activate other protocols ahead of the amber phantom's core power simply because there's no real way to have a "pre-turn, actionless" ability if that makes sense, I guess it could be parsed as some sort of Reaction to "when your turn would begin" or something but I feel that would on the whole be more confusing than having it be a Protocol

and I don't really foresee activating Steady Aim or a Type-3 Shield ahead of your assist partner causing major problems, or at least it doesn't appear to have resulted in any that have been relayed to me

[jaunty condor]

Hey just noticed, the MBT fully tracked trait states it ignores difficult terrain and the optional trait hover also states it ignores difficult terrain

[chrome lagoon]

Hover Tank ignores dangerous terrain

[jaunty condor]

Oh my bad

My brain

Here I was rereading it with confidence I was reading it right 🙃

[shrewd stratus]

Hmm, is the Gilgamesh supposed to look like a mech built over a mech or is the internal mech core fully covered by the exoskeleton from the outside?

[chrome lagoon]

It probably isn't going to look like a mech wearing a mech

There's an inner core chassis around which things are built but it's not a secondary mech so much as an engineering conceit

[shrewd stratus]

Gotcha gotcha

So from the outside it just looks like any regular ol' mech?

(Well, as "regular" as you can get in Lancer anyways)

[meager adder]

I think one way to visualize it is like one of those Gundam kits where you build a mech skeleton, and then can snap parts over it?

[cold badger]

Five Night's at Freddy's mecha (I am ashamed of myself and so, so very sorry)

[smoky silo]

I think there's a typo in the mechanics text for "Go Loud", there's a space missing between two sentences

not really a question, I suppose, but I didn't think this merited an entire new thread

[shrewd stratus]

Oh god oh fuck Union is deploying Freddy Fazbear oh shit

[shrewd stratus]

WAIT NO HARRISON ARMORY IS MASS-PRODUCING FREDDY FAZBEAR

[hexed juniper]

SSC and their luxury line of golden freddies

[meager adder]

HORUS and Nightmare Freddies.

[hollow tundra]

ISP-N mass producing balloon boy

[hollow tundra]

yo, can I borrow this to horrify my friends with?

[wintry bane]

it's not mine. it's @shut scarab from the retrograde server 🙂

[hollow tundra]

Oh

[ivory spire]

does the MBT count as just 1 NPC for the purposes of encounter budgeting?

[chrome lagoon]

Yes

[dreamy eagle]

From experience using it, yes, but it really shouldn't be anything less than a Vet

[chrome lagoon]

It has no modifiers in that regard

And yeah you can obviously dress it up with templates etc, it's not mandatory because to be honest I don't particularly feel like imposing a mandatory template incorporation OR making it template-agnostic in some respect

but an unadorned MBT, no templates no nothing, is a standard NPC worth of budget

and for scoring purposes as well in sitreps where "type of NPC" matters

[ivory spire]

got it

[chrome lagoon]

The "only one MBT per composition" restriction exists primarily because given the facing/positioning part of Composite Armor, I feel like multiple NPCs having to track that during one fight and/or PCs having to contend with that on multiple NPCs would run the risk of being too much of a hassle

[brave marlin]

Hey up, can't find an answer via search - given the MBT'S specific wording on Stable Body:

The MBT can’t be pushed, pulled, or knocked back by smaller characters.

I take it this means Puppet Systems still works normally on the tank?

[silver quiver]

word of tom, Puppet Systems doesn't bypass Heavy Frame which has the same wording, so probably not.

[brave marlin]

I see! Much appreciated.

[smoky silo]

flying vehicle tag MBT...intriguing

[chrome lagoon]

Confirming that this is correct

[hexed juniper]

imagining the Gilgamesh as some sort of an insectoid mech, shedding and molting

its exoskeleton to grow new limbs

[hexed juniper]

let's say I am an amber phantom with a stasis bolt. me and my ally is being targeted by a bombard shot, and I react with my charged stasis bolt

I win the contested check and I make it miss me. Since it missed me, I decide to move my ally 2 spaces, out of the bombard zone. Would they still able to get hit by the bombard or no?

similarly, a T2 operator aims for me, miss me, and I move a targeted ally character out of the Op's LoS. will they still be shot?

[chrome lagoon]

"Can an Amber Phantom use Battle Oracle to move people out of position for multi-attacks" has been asked before and my answer has been yes, or if a Ronin is multi-attacking you and they miss and you move them to where successive attacks are no longer within range, etc

The flipside to this is that the GM can simply target people who aren't you beforehand

i.e. the bombard can attack your ally first rather than attacking you first

[gritty crest]

Per Siege Spec 2, usually once you start making attack rolls in an AOE the targets are set

[chrome lagoon]

It may work that way for aoes then but I know it doesn't work that way for ronin/operator "make multiple attacks" type things

If you can knock a ronin back with some sort of interstitial attack they don't get to keep attacking you outside of threat range just because

Attacks do have to happen in one after another order even within aoes, they don't occur simultaneously

[gritty crest]

oh, shoot. discord was messing with me and didn't load your message: that was meant to be an answer to the bombard half of BRATTY's question.

[chrome lagoon]

I'll check and see if there's been some definitive yes/no regarding interstitial displacement and AoEs to further clarify that one, but I know that if (for example) you somehow manage to either knock a ronin back or move your own self (like with a singularity motivator) after their first attack of two/three that they don't get to keep attacking you even if they intended you to be the target

[chrome lagoon]

Siege Spec 2 is also kind of a weird talent in general in how it works and applies, and I'm not sure it serves as a broader ruling on "what happens when people are removed out of range of an ongoing AoE" but I'll look into it

[past olive]

Quickfire question: Shock Claw's "On Attack" effect would be halved on Executioner 1 despite not being explicitely an attack by virtue of being an effect tied to the attacking weapon, correct?

[chrome lagoon]

Last time this came up this was my response

I THINK for the purpose of backswing cut it wouldn't be halved, backswing cut is a little weird because it refers to "if the attack is successful it deals half damage" and the On Attack effect is completely divorced from success or failure```
Now I do know that somewhere there's a word of tom clarifying that backswing cut deals half damage regardless of hit or miss, you don't get a special cheesy +reliable damage exploit if you attack with a nanocarbon sword and miss, it's basically meant to operate like heavy gunner

But a separate "on attack" effect isn't something I'm sure would fall under that umbrella per se

[past olive]

curious, wasn't what i would of thought at first but i understand that line of thought

[chrome lagoon]

I can see a pretty reasonable argument going either way

It would PROBABLY be more intuitive on the whole to make it halved even though backswing cut's own writing isn't really intuitive with how it's intended to work either

[past olive]

right - a player brought the interaction up to me and I was in a similar camp of "i could believe them but also my gut feeling has doubts seeing it seems out of place with usually how half damage works"

either way, appreciate the response

[chrome lagoon]

There isn't a lot of "on attack" type stuff so it does fall into a bit of a grey area in terms of "how attached is this" but I think in the end it'll probably work out better to just say "yeah it gets halved" if this is what people will most intuitively assume

If there's any sort of ruling precedent on any other thing elsewhere I'll take a look at it

[past olive]

yeah that was what i started looking for too to see if there was some consistency to be found somewhere but came short

[chrome lagoon]

I guess the closest would be something like the gravity gun/heavy gunner interaction

[old nimbus]

No such Word of Tom exists about Executioner 1 and Reliable damage in the FAQ.

The only response I could find the matter (which you posted here: #rules-questions message) was that "the reliable interaction was maybe not intended to be read that way but is a cool interaction so I don't mind it" which was in response to Executioner 3 and Exemplar 1.

[chrome lagoon]

Every recent question I've seen from people asking about Executioner 1 and Reliable has people giving answers that say "no, you don't get full reliable on a miss" and so I assume this was clarified somewhere that I'm simply unaware of
#rules-questions message
#rules-questions message
#mech-hangar message

[old nimbus]

Huh.

Interesting...

[chrome lagoon]

I'm assuming that there's something there or else people would not be answering this definitively in this manner

[old nimbus]

Eh...

I wouldn't be so sure. There have been instances of RAI bleeding into the RAW before without clarifications from Tom.

Either way. Guess I gotta go digging for the origin.

I mean... there's a funny ruling of some relevance, but otherwise nothing from Tom in #rules-questions
(said funny ruling: #rules-questions message)

[old nimbus]

Ok, so I did some digging and it turns out there is no Word of Tom ruling about it. It became community consensus because it was consistent with similar effects that halve the damage and because it made no sense for the reliable damage to possibly be greater than the rolled damage (which in turn, created other questions).

I also figured I'd ask Tom about it, but I don't really think I'm gonna get an answer from him.

[chrome lagoon]

I'll check if the opportunity arises

[unreal moat]

Sorry if this question has been asked before but I can't figure out how to search a thread like this if that's a possibility (if so feel free to let me know and I'll do the search).

Can a mech using the Gilgamesh's Legion Nexus deploy a Legion Drone via quick action or is the only way to deploy legion drones by firing the Legion Nexus?

[hasty pollen]

only after attacking, I'm pretty sure.

[chrome lagoon]

Correct

[rustic pewter]

Questions. How does one Gilgamesh

I'm unsure what to lean into

[dense temple]

Drone Gilgamesh

[chrome lagoon]

kind of however you want tbh

[stoic oxide]

Greg seems like he's meant to be a generalist, but in particular likes to play with things with Limited Charges

[chrome lagoon]

the point of the gilgamesh is that, outside of its limited systems emphasis, it's largely a generalist

[shrewd stratus]

Step 1: Put two LLs into Tortuga-

[chrome lagoon]

You can absolutely do that, it's entirely legal

nobody can stop you

[shrewd stratus]

TEN THOUSAND DAISY CUTTER ROUNDS OF JCH

Also I just noticed, is the point of the combat repair ability to offset the need to spend repairs on HP/weapons/systems so you can instead spend them on GM1 or is that a coincidence

[chrome lagoon]

it's not NOT a coincidence

or to put it another way, the core passive exists in part as a sort of inversion of the everest's replaceable parts, where the everest has extremely efficient repair expenses during rests, the gilgamesh has limited amounts of non-repair-consuming restoration

that this then ties into things like grease monkey as an alternate way of spending repairs that hooks into limited equipment does work nicely with it, and grease monkey was definitely a factor foremost in mind when designing the frame

but in terms of chicken-and-egg, the primary consideration was wanting the gilgamesh to have a sustainability trait/passive that played in a different space from the GMS catalogue, with grease monkey facilitation coming into play after that, rather than the initial thought being "what's a way to work grease monkey into this more"

[shrewd stratus]

Ohhhh I see I see, very interesting

[chrome lagoon]

technically ANYTHING that plays around with repair/sustainability is going to tie into grease monkey in some capacity if you want it to, GMS mechs make great grease monkey platforms, I think the balor isn't a bad choice, etc

[shrewd stratus]

Yeah that makes sense

[chrome lagoon]

the primary difference is that the gilgamesh also has a strong limited system focus which sort of completes the circle

so the trick with the gilgamesh can absolutely be "how safe is it for me to shove all my repairs into my daisy cutter" because once you do start taking structure/stress you have to pay the full price for fixing it, but the minor stuff everyone hates spending repairs on like topping up HP or fixing broken weapons can be done cheaper

[shrewd stratus]

I see, neat

[hollow tundra]

SO MUCH DAISY CUTTER

ENOUGH BUCKSHOT TO BLIND GOD

[versed agate]

Gilg

Gilg is fun with Engineer if you're short on mounts because of a Superheavy

[hexed juniper]

let's say a situation

I, an amber phantom with stasis bolt and near 2 allies and an enemy, is targeted by a bombard. the enemy is just out of the circle

targetting whoever first, it misses due to my static bolt.

if I move a soon-to-be-shot ally out of the way, will they still get shot?

also, if I move in the enemy, will they too get shot?

[jaunty condor]

I'd assume not

[gritty crest]

#1174488469079326720 message Kai might've gotten some clarification since the last time this came up, but here's discussion from then.

[bold gate]

Very excited to see this come out, hopefully it isn't rude to ask for a possible ETA on the release. Solstice Rain has been my favorite out of the released adventures so hyped for its continuation.

[chrome lagoon]

Right now the plan is to try and get it as close to the reprint of the core rulebook as possible, but beyond that I wouldn't plan on a hard release date

Editing, art, revisions, etc all can take longer than a hard scheduled deadline accounts for

I can say: right now every artist that I want to work on the module has been contacted and is in the process of working on things (I've had sketches and thumbnails returned to me but nothing finished so far) and it's been submitted to melody watson for proofreading and editing (this doesn't forestall additional changes or revisions, they'll simply be done using the edited version)

[bold gate]

Oh yeah I figured this was the case thank you for responding I appreciate it ❤️🫡

[carmine frigate]

Not entirely sure if this is the place to ask but couldn't think of another good spot so
What is the intended height of the sections of forest that provide soft cover and denser forest that provides hard cover in Combat 2: Walk in the Forest?

[chrome lagoon]

I'll talk with eld but probably not much taller than around a height of 2 or so

[pallid girder]

that's what its supposed to be at yeah

[hot torrent]

Regarding the MBT's Stable Body Trait: "Characters may also
Ram the MBT to change which side its armored facing is on regardless of their Size."

As I understand it, the default Ram action only allows one to target characters of the same size or smaller. Is the way Stable Body phrased intended to make the MBT a valid Ram target for smaller characters, overriding the general Ram restriction?

[cold badger]

"regardless of their size" really says it all IMO. Wouldn't make sense to add that in if it didn't override base ram restrictions.

so yea, I do think that's how it works

[hot torrent]

As expected; just seeking confirmation. I'm also curious about this part: "If a hostile effect would move the MBT 2 or more spaces or knock it Prone, even if caused by a smaller character, that character may change which side its armored facing is on after that effect resolves." The MBT is immune to Prone, so is this phrasing meant to convey that if an effect would Prone, it doesn't (b/c immunity), but it would still allow changing the facing?

[dense temple]

Yep

[hot torrent]

Neat, I like that it keeps those positioning control tools relevant.

[cold badger]

good stuff yea

[warped rock]

Most amazing mech description

[meager adder]

“Come closer, I am a Normal Mech. :)”

[hasty pollen]

can loitering payloads fly/hover/be placed midair?

[livid cargo]

Hi, I’ll be transitioning from Operation Solstice Rain to the Operation Winter Scar Playtest soon, and was looking forward to delivering feedback on it with my group.

Only problem is it turns out 2 of my players chose this transition period to say they’d be leaving the game (on good terms no worries, glad they picked now when it felt more appropriate and is easy), leaving me with 2 players.

Lancer combat in general isn’t really designed for 2 players, and OWS isn’t either. I still want to provide playtest data but I shouldn’t really modify the combats too heavily if I want to keep the data “clean.”

Any recommendations on actions I can take to make the campaign run better for two players while keeping things close enough to the module that playtest feedback is still meaningful?

My first thought was simply providing more tactical and mech reserves, which would be the cleanest way to skew things more appropriately but can potentially make the player side experience a little less fun as the action economy is still much greater than the players’, or worse it wouldn’t be enough of a boon to balance things. I could be wrong however

[chrome lagoon]

Unironic suggestion: have a third PC-tier mech that the other two players run as an allied NPC

[livid cargo]

That was my first thought but also seemed, idunno, kinda lazy and would end up being clunky to play. It’ll be my first choice if I can’t find anything better but still

It’d definitely be a good way to make Naia, a certified side character, more of like… an actual character

[livid cargo]

When you say PC tier do you mean built like a PC or a mech with a PC level capability?