MAGNAGOTHICA MALEGHAST

[short estuary]

Although the action econ for heads heads heads seems kinda jacked up

[glacial junco]

Isnt heads heads heads the one thats action econ messed up

Yeah

We didn't do that one well

[umbral cipher]

heads! heads! heads! seems really hard to do yee

[short estuary]

The math to actually pick up and drop off enough heads winds up taking a lot of turns

[glacial junco]

Early access gamemode bugged (This is a joke)

[silver zephyr]

question for the channel: is posting resources that use the unit images okay? I made a printable units page for each of the factions but the source images are from the units zip, which is on the paid content side.

this sorta thing

[umbral cipher]

I'd say that's just fine yeah

[silver zephyr]

In that case, here's the printable units doc. Designed to fit on a 1-inch grid, should print as-is on 8.5x11 paper.

[glacial junco]

You fucking rule

This is perfect thank you so much

[silver zephyr]

👍

[compact crow]

Fuckin badass! This is awesome

[umbral cipher]

goes hard

[glacial junco]

Throw these into the resource drive when you get a chance

[silver zephyr]

oh right - will do

done, I think

[silk storm]

add them to the sheet then 👁️👁️

oh are you going to Pax Unplugged? Maybe I'll swing by and play a game

[silver zephyr]

will be there but probably spending most of my time w/ visiting friends

[silk storm]

featuring in more games should not increase the % win rate that they see, because win rate is normalized to number of games

I am interested in doing this, but we lack enough data for a lot of it. Like last time I checked there was one, maybe two Abhorrer v Igorri matchups

[grave warren]

mhm. The second thing I'm interested in is winrates for all matchups that don't include Goregrinders

[silk storm]

I'd be interested in that too, maybe I'll do it

It's kinda annoying to filter the data in a way that is still readable on the sheet though, that's why I keep adding hidden columns lol

might do it on a private copy so I don't ruin the public sheet

[compact crow]

Where could I find the public sheet to help contribute to this?

[silk storm]

It's in pins

Data without goregrinders

data with goregrinders

[elfin ermine]

Abhorrer winrate fell

😭

oh wait the second is with

[silk storm]

Conclusions:

• If you assume all data to be statistically significant, Goregrinders has a positive winrate against literally every house.
• Goregrinders has a particularly good matchup against Gargamox

[silk storm]

All of the winrates increase when you don't include goregrinders, which leads to the first conclusion

might go stupid go crazy rn and put in calcs on statistical significance

[lapis willow]

youve done good work, but imo we're too close to release with too small of a sample size to make definitive statements about balance

[silk storm]

I mostly agree

I think the variance in win rates with garg, igorri, and carcass are probably not significant

[dense crest]

When two people play against each other, is all information open? As in, which ACTs the necromancers have, SOUL abilities, etc

[pale echo]

Probably

[silk storm]

but the fact that goregrinders have been winning nearly 3x as often as they lose is definitely significant

[dense crest]

I think the biggest problem with Abhorrer is how it's an house that requires to set up and to slowly grow in strength, that playstyle usually takes time for people to get used to it and learn how to play
While Goregrinders is
RUSH B CYKA BLYAT

[silk storm]

Also I have decided against this because I do not have a formal education in stats and do not trust that whatever test I could make is A) the correct test B) implemented correctly

[silk storm]

This could be true, but you can also consider Igorri, which is also a setup-based faction for the most part, and it does not have this issue

[dense crest]

True, but Abhorroer have stuff that only triggers on turn 5+
Some matches barely reach turn 3

[silk storm]

valid

[lapis willow]

The statistical significance here imo is what would amount to this being a "local meta"

Are players also being tracked? i.e. are we seeing a Gore Grinders Georg rn

[dense crest]

Or how he is called in the streets
GGG gets shot

But yeah, would love to see the W/L ratio of Abhorror on matches that can go beyond 6 rounds

[silk storm]

Specific players aren't but there was one dude who did like 10 gore vs abhorrers matches in a row and won literally every time but 2 draws, so I rejected almost all of that data bc at that point, it's just a skill issue lol

Player data would be nice, but the fact that it isn't tracked well means we should have more samples

[dense crest]

I would sujest a change to be 4+ and not 5+ rounds to see how Abhorrors would fare
But yeah like I said, Abhorror playstyle usually takes more time to learn and get used to it

[dense crest]

Also yeah valid

[compact crow]

I feel like Abhorrors might need a unit that is good in the first three rounds and then gets weaker in the later rounds. Like imagine an undead paladin who, due to their oath, cannot remain undead for long and as such they only stay alive for short bursts of time, but are powerful melee scions in that short time

[dense crest]

Makes sense, a way to let them play more defensively or control to build advantage

[elfin ermine]

I think their necro could do some of that

its a little passive compared to other necros, until way later

[compact crow]

Some of their abilities let them treat the round as 4 for the purposes of their other abilities, but that would be tough to utilize unless you are playing above the minimum Malice level

[silk storm]

update, I did confidence calcs anyways bc there was an easy function for it

[storm pine]

I think what a lot of us are curious about is how large part of the skew is due to that one group doing a huge amount of GG vs DS matches back to back, and the DS player not winning a single one

Maybe their specific lists were ill matched and it's affecting the GG w/l rate

[grave warren]

Do we have a way of isolating those games on the sheet?

[silent sluice]

you should play with all open info

[dense crest]

thank ya

[silent sluice]

also giving DS a big chunk of losses lol

[storm pine]

Yeah lol

I'm surprised their ratio isn't shittier given that data set

Curious to see GG and DS data with those matches removed

Also, gotta start adding shorthand versions of the respective Black Masses in my games

Sometimes certain units are hard counters to certain units

[silk storm]

I have excluded like 70% of that data

lemme look rq

it was 6 gg wins, 2 draws, and 1 loss

[pure elm]

Since Word of Tom says that walls can not be targeted by effects can they still be targeted for infect since it is a special tag?

[pale echo]

infect really feels like it shouldn't work with walls

[silk storm]

I've excluded it down to 2 wins, 1 draw, and 1 loss

hmmm

Infect does not work

infect specifies characters

walls are not characters

[pure elm]

Tragetted like a character

[silk storm]

keyword "like"

implying it is not a character

Also "Walls are immune to all other effects"

[pure elm]

but they can take splash damage like the lycan attack or the berzerk splash

[silk storm]

correct

[rain ocean]

Man sure am glad I put out my rematches to generate discussion on a matchup so I can reach a state where I can actually win on a semi-consistent basis. Sure hope nobody tries to dunk on me with something like "skill issue LUL"- oh wait here it is. You didn't have to say it, or even say it like that, so now I just feel worse, very cool. So there is an explanation for the performance, but not one that leads to a conclusion like "deadsouls does even/well into goregrinders."

In practice this was not "hey I'm gonna take the same comp into the Goregrinders player over and over again to see what happens", instead it was me randomly trying deadsouls for the first time, and my opponent taking goregrinders. I hadn't put a whole lot of thought into the first matchup, just took 1 ofs to get a feel for each of the units before I actually try and craft a comp. My opponent had played Goregrinders a couple of times outside of that, so he had an idea of what comp he wanted to try already. I got rekt, figured intuitively that the matchup was difficult, and was thus inspired to rematch him over a period of time (read: this is not all at once), with different variations on the deadsouls side (asked my opponent to play a theorycrafted refined version of the list he played, which he was fine with.) He made some very slight variations on the list he ran but aside from that it was basically me trying to figure out if winning vs that list was possible.

The longest I played the exact same variation of any one composition was 2 matches, and there were days between sets of gameplay, I merely updated the list with all the ones I had played so far, knowing that it would spark some discussion on the matchup so that I could fish for ideas here. I tried out variations that people reported having success with, but the outcome was still dire.

Ffzdf reported that we had mistakenly been starting with 1 soul point instead of zero, and I did a bunch of rematches along with some carefully controlled practice matches by myself. These were not added to the dataset because I didn't feel the need to continue to tank the DS winrate much more since my goal of generating discussion so I could find a way to win the matchup had succeeded (the discussion part, I'm still 0 wins vs GG, but it's closer)

I even asked Poe about the comp that was successfully used vs GG, as well as the general strategy used in the game. I ran four rematches vs the GG player to see how it went, was 0-2-2, with the last draw I had being very close to a victory. This isn't very surprising as the list that Poe gave me was pretty close to the best list I'd theorycrafted to date, Urgal blade aside. (Not convinced on the Urgal blade really, at least not in the GG matchup since Bodyblock is a pain and so is Nerve Twitch, but in other matchups I can see it being really good.)

It was also 8 Gore vs Deadsouls, not 10. Anyway, once Ffzdf had corrected me the draw rates were looking a bit better. I was concerned that lacking access to an additional soul point at the start would make it hard to wall off as efficiently, but in practice it ended up giving me an extra turn of breathing room vs GG, since the alternative was that GG begins the unit killing snowball from turn 1 rather than turn 2. In general it would have extended out the matches I had lost another turn, and increased the draw rate significantly.

The one very close draw that I almost won was due in part to properly starting with 0 soul points, as the initial tests I did with a similar comp did not have this, and were a bit more lopsided than they would have otherwise been.

In general having looked over a lot of the dead souls data, there are a number of successful games being won due to what might be overextending the necro, or some fortunate doom application. (Fortunate because it's hard to apply and hard to get to stick from practical experience.) Not sure if this is actually what happened but that's my best guess unless we get recordings.

[silk storm]

basically walls are treated like a character with respect to direct targeting and AoE, but are immune to other methods of damage

[rain ocean]

That aside I don't think it's something like me just being bad or the GG player just being good, we play a bunch of other matchups together and they're really close aside from this one, we're almost dead even on wins and losses versus eachother if we exclude the Deadsouls data. Still trying to figure out the matchup and I do hope I get to the point where the two of us can just pick whatever and have a great time.

[silk storm]

About the "skill issue lul" part, you're right, my apologies. Anonymity of screens makes it easier to clown on people on the internet, and being just numbers on a sheet really doesn't help either. You are right though, it's my bad.

As for the other background though, that's actually really helpful! It adds a lot of context to the logs. Looking at the data, it really seemed like an outlier point due to how they were all grouped together with minimal play notes. I figured it was along the lines of "deadsouls player was still figuring out how to use deadsouls," which it seems like was a correct read for those games specifically. Have you included your more recent games on the sheet? It seems like you've played a lot, it'd be interesting to see how they went.

I'm not sure who mentioned it earlier, but someone said that GG could be really good right now because people are still figuring out how to play the game, and GG is just easier to learn, and I think what you've said here really corroborates that

Deadsouls and Abhorrers may just be one of those higher skill ceiling, low skill floor houses

[rain ocean]

Thanks, I'll try to get a little less heated about stuff like this in the future. I'll contribute some more recent games when I get the time to do more rematches, the guy I play with is stuck working most of the time, when I'm not busy I'll contribute some of my thoughts on how the matchups have gone in general, might be helpful for more discussion on the state of the game in general, or not, I'm not exactly infallible even if I have strong opinions.

[silk storm]

No problem, thanks for not absolutely blowing up the discord about it lmao, its not too common to find someone who is chill like that online

Additional play notes are really helpful though, especially for the purposes of identifying trends in reasoning

[tulip crane]

Don't you mean "high skill floor"?

[silk storm]

I was trying to look through the notes on why GG was winning so often, but there weren't enough solid notes to get an idea

[tulip crane]

Also, thank you for the writeup, Aion. That's really helpful.

[silk storm]

Skill Floor = performance when you don't know how to use it very well
Skill Ceiling = performance when you know how to use it very well

So having a low skill floor means that people who are new see very low performance, but low skill floors often come with high skill ceilings, meaning that players who are very experienced with it will dominate others

[tacit cedar]

I think a lot of people use Skill Floor to mean sufficient skill to use the faction at all competently and Skill Ceiling to mean the amount of skill to have perfected a faction

something with a low skill ceiling can still be overpowered just like simple

[tulip crane]

I see. I always understood that as a threshold, like Pennywen just described.

[silk storm]

That'd also be a valid interpretation

[tulip crane]

Anyway, we're on the same page.

[silk storm]

yea

[tulip crane]

I find that interesting, because on first read I was sure Igorri would be the hardest house to play and possibly the one with lowest win rates early on.

[silk storm]

Igorri is actually the house I played my first time around, my only knowledge going in was "stack buffs on necro with the token transfers" and it worked pretty well

the fact that mutation tokens can stand in for any other token you currently have, almost puts your defense/offense balance on autopilot

if you just use some vit when you get hit and some strength when you attack, it balances itself pretty easily

[tulip crane]

Makes sense.

[silk storm]

I fr need to go though, I have been dicking around doing data analysis when I have a major paper due tomorrow that I haven't started lmao

have a blast, gamers

[storm pine]

Thank you chef, will do

Yeah no way infect is jumping with walls. That's absurd lol

[lyric fog]

Yeah, I assume that when the rules text says "character" it means character, except specifically as far as being able to target walls.
So, yes you can hit it, no it doesn't count for avoiding Berserk hurting yourself

[junior elbow]

They definitely are, but I, a definitely not biased Deadsouls player, feel like they're still underpowered

Not by a lot

They're very good and most of my games have been super close

But they're heavily reliant on rng to get any Doom applications which for a mechanic that only triggers after a lot of games end and can be removed by. Playing the game, feels pretty bad

The only surefire way to get doom onto things is your necro which is fair but the Doomblade is designed more as a payoff than a setup piece?

[silent sluice]

The primary thing Deadsouls and Abhorrers share in common is having a mechanic that primarily functions in the latter half of the game. It seems to me that right now, effective DS lists will basically just ignore Doom entirely.

[junior elbow]

This is true, but speaks to how Doom is underpowered

Also Abhorrers can be super aggressive early game cause of their tankiness but there isn't really a list that allows Deadsouls to do so because A. they're squishy and 2. they require time to disrupt the opponent's units

[dense stratus]

ermmmm, trying to figure out how to put the unit sheet into roll 20, but this is gonna be difficult because the entire pdf is image

[dense crest]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ZGHNonr32z1FgrJwC27VipCaeFCb8WDIp4PnSdk7wnA/edit?usp=sharing You can copy-paste from here to help it speed up a bit

[dense stratus]

oh thank you

[dense crest]

You gonna need to put on a text block first and clean some formatting before pasting on tthe roll20 sheet

[storm pine]

My record with DS is 2 wins and 1 draw against Abhorrers, and second place in a 1v1v1 with Mox and Carcass where the Carcass cleaned up the Mox and me after we went at one another

The game feels exceptionally balanced tbh

Maybe there's some very minor tuning to be done, but you can win with any House against any House

[dense crest]

I think people will start having an easier time with more complexes houses when we have some small guides n such

[dense crest]

Like, in your case, what mistake you see people doing with DS?

[junior elbow]

Upon a little more time reviewing my last game, I think Tear Soul is super duper strong

Deadsouls can do tremendous work with just their curses and at this point I'm a little allergic to rolling with them

[junior elbow]

I was running Vapor Form which is cool but doesn't do enough

Tear Soul can stack So much weak on necros and tyrants and I really need to be stacking multiple weak in order to be preventing damage, which my units super need

[compact crow]

I feel like Vapor Form would be better if you didn't already have the ability to move through walls

Like it's an odd clarification to make when the Deadsouls necromancer can already do that

[junior elbow]

It would be more impactful in contrast yeah, might be from an older design cycle

[compact crow]

So I was just looking at Goregrinders and their Berserk tokens and thinking that if a Goregrinders player teamed up with an Igorri player then they'd be unstoppable. Just imagine a Berserker with 1 Berserk token and like 5 Mutation tokens from the Igorri player that lets it continuously splash damage all around it each round.

[tulip lava]

To those who say that hazard spamming with gargamox doesn't win games: it's not about winning, it's about sending a message, and that message is 300 rats biting your ankles

[dense stratus]

yeah erm, good question

what option is there to let non-gm players spam all the hazards in roll 20? I'm trying to find the permission setting but it just doesn't exist?

okay I think I figured out a work around with the character sheet stuff

[dense stratus]

hmmm ya know what, who want to play a game of Maleghast with me right now? just to test out this roll 20 room I have made

[primal nest]

Damn caught me just as I was heading off for tonight

[primal nest]

The best solution I found was to make a character for that hazard token and let players pull it out their journal

[junior elbow]

Deadsouls gaming

[dense stratus]

yeah that was what I did

[silent sluice]

Heresy

[primal nest]

Vapor Form also let’s you go through units

[dense stratus]

hmm okay

if nobody is available, I will try asking again a few hours later, gotta do something with my projects

[craggy iron]

I could probably do one

[dense stratus]

alright, lets' go

[real bane]

Le walls have arrived

[dense stratus]

well, that was fun

I should remember how much berserk tokens goregrinders can just throw around

and also erm, scum wave are genuinely terrifying with their physical armor

my warhead and painwheel were almost completely useless against them

it's just down to 2 drunk guys beating up each other by the end

that said, it was very funny to just destroy like 4 scums at once thanks to the Berserker

[craggy iron]

perhaps I would have won, if I only had more scum...

[dense stratus]

the rotten also inflicted a lot of pain on me

if it wasn't for that rotten, my painwheel might still be alive to wreck havocs

funny how my build is designed to inflict a lot of plink damage, I ended up going against a black mass that's nearly immune to plink damage

[craggy iron]

now imagine if this comes to pass

[dense stratus]

nooooo

[bleak folio]

this is the key to oops all scum gaming

[cinder isle]

fear

aren't gargamox already one of the top winners?

[craggy iron]

tied with Igorri for third iirc

[cinder isle]

oh wack

i thought it was like GG at a ridiculous 70% and then garg in second

who is second?

[craggy iron]

CARCASS is in second, which I can believe considering they predominantly have access to strength and vulnerable

[cinder isle]

ahhh, that makes sense

[dense stratus]

plus 1d from formation is probably very good too

[junior elbow]

You gotta get some Painghouls in there for speed tokens

Speed that bad boy wheel up

All of their abilities are terrifying with speed->strength tokens

[dense stratus]

yeah, definitely need a painghoul somewhere

[topaz orchid]

Hey, what would be the superior platform to play this? Wanted to try and i got tts so

[pale echo]

There's a TTS mod for it I think

[ember thistle]

Just played a match on TTS. Worked fine for me. Though placing multiple tokens on a single unit/space can get fiddly.

[dense stratus]

TTS didn't really work on my older computer before, but I guess I should try to figure it out too that way

[topaz orchid]

Thought so

Is there an easy way to set it up on roll20 or would you have to do it by hand?

[pseudo flicker]

in order of popularity

• roll20
• tts mod by me
• everything else xd

everything else is

isocon

foundry

owlbear

[topaz orchid]

gotcha

great work on the tts mod btw

[pseudo flicker]

🫡

my adhd calls me to work on caves of qud modding now sadly

[dense crest]

You did the table for TTS? Thank you a ton

[dense crest]

BASED AS FUCK
Qud is fun, but I got Psychic brainrot everytime i play it

[dense stratus]

oh the Maleghast TTS looks very cool wow

oh you work on CoQ too???

that's cool!

[pseudo flicker]

i just want to make a little town mod+quests for it

todays goal is to make a boss

[dense crest]

Oh man I should play again, last time I played was around when Seeth made the video+ a few months after that
Was able to finish the game
Psychic mutation best mutation

and save scumming but shhhhh

[dense stratus]

I have the game but I'm just plain too stupid to play any roguelite with really in depth system

I'm glad that these days, most people recognizes Cave of Qud from just its name rather than the shitstorm video the Seeth guy made

[dense crest]

Honestly, Seeth sold me the game.
Also, don't worry about the controls, taking it slow and save scumming you get used to it in a few days

And the wiki is your friend, it has a good begginer friendly guide

[dense crest]

And you sold me Magnagothica~!

[tulip crane]

Arriving late for the house-balance talk, but it seems to me Deadsouls is slightly UP and Goregrinders are slightly OP, with slightly being the key word.

Compared to other houses, Deadsouls have relatively few debuffs, AoE, and burst, none of which are entirely absent, but are less common or harder to use than what you find elsewhere. The mechanics they use (with the exception of Doom) aren't effective in securing a victory either; isolation, walls, weak, and slow are all good at preventing an opponent victory, but a draw isn't much better.

Doom is unreliable to apply, easy to remove, and the payoff is usually binary (not too many bonuses against doomed units). Walls are very hard to be used offensively (even if they're good in general terms). Isolation doesn't have enough payoffs. The same units/houses that have an easy time with Doom will find weakness trivial to deal with. Obliteration is handy, but rarely game-changing. The units' stats themselves aren't bad, nor are they impressive.

I'm not convinced there are doomed (heh) match-ups or houses that aren't viable, but I don't think that means the game is perfectly balanced either. Not that it should be, but it could be a little better.

[dense crest]

What's your oppinion on Abhorror tho? It's the house with the most loses atm

Last time I said the house need more control/Stall options, or change 'turn 5+' abillities into '4+ turn'

[elfin ermine]

I also wouldn't be surprised if Goregrinders are particularly good versus new players

mis-position versus the aggro faction, well

[dense crest]

Yeah that is another factor, the game is very new so more complexes houses, like abhorror and DS can have a more steep learning curve

Carcass might be a good middle ground atm

[tulip crane]

I think the data shows something, but I'll have to get more matches with (and against!) them to be convinced they need a buff and where.
They're unreasonably strong in the late game, but I'm unsure if that's always the case (are they that threatening without Inquisitors? Or if their Holy Body died?). In theory, miracle + their ease to generate vitality should mean they're hard to rush down.

[real bane]

Something that'd be cool to see in the match tracker would be the winrates of each matchup

[tulip crane]

That depends on number of matches. There's hardly enough data for most match-ups (other than Deadsouls vs. Goregrinders, I suppose ).

But yes, it would.

[dense crest]

Maybe a server tournament would help?

[primal flame]

Corpse central

[dense crest]

and I need to gather strength and ask for a game already after work

That homunculy is eating good tonight

[primal flame]

They sure did (absorb killed the operator)

[dense crest]

o

[glacial junco]

I love absorb

[dense crest]

Kirby's favorite skill

[glacial junco]

Ok wow, This isnt the best place to mention it but i think one of my servers emotes crashes discord

i tested it and I type : kir and when i hit B it just crashes discord

[clever mountain]

lol

was not paying much attention oops

to the thing

I have a really dumb idea about making a physical version of it using like MDF chits

as a temporary thing for the models

But the terrain as a 3d thing

[pseudo flicker]

Its not a roguelite, but it has a very simple control scheme for a more classic roguelike

[clever mountain]

Wall pieces as X tall, Elevated as x/2 tall

and stairs as these weird x/4 pices with railings

hmmm

pieces

[pseudo flicker]

I think in terms of "hard to get into", easiest to hardest i would rate the roguelikes i played like this
Caves of Qud, DF adventure mode, Adom, Nethack

[dense stratus]

you can probably use any tall thing for wall since no unit is gonna stand on it

there's also Dark Days Ahead

[pseudo flicker]

Yep! Not necessarily even tall

Ohhh yea cataclysm
Its harder than adom imo

I guess zomboid could count then, despite looking very different, and i would put it between qud and df

But i am going off topic xd

[dense crest]

coq is very beginner friendly compared to DDA and Cataclysm imo

[clever mountain]

Hmmmmmm

[dense crest]

Cube

[clever mountain]

I will make isometric board for this game

Not sure how to get it to work with

[dense crest]

Admirable
but
hell

[pine crescent]

fwiw I'm making major revisions to isocon specifically targeting some of its weaknesses with maleghast, like multiple units in the same space, better UI with high unit counts, and easier terrain effects. Might be january before it's done though.

[clever mountain]

Tyrant yet though

Hahhaa

[dense crest]

Always appreciated

[pseudo flicker]

Multiple units in the same space?

[clever mountain]

Hmmm?

[dense crest]

Isometric stuff can be hard to do and keep the isometry

[clever mountain]

I mean it won't be exactly isometric

[pseudo flicker]

Do you mean on a physical or virtual tt?

[pine crescent]

Maybe that doesn't happen in maleghast, that might be something I wanted for ICON

[clever mountain]

Not literal isometric

This is me dimensioning

For like

Physical sizing

Hahaha

[pseudo flicker]

Yea, but physical, right? xd

[clever mountain]

Yeah so not isometric but

3d cube world isometric style?

Not sure what to call it

Need to figure out models after figuring out the board hahaa

[pseudo flicker]

Okey so i think what i did with tts is easy enough to transfer to physical
Have a single square piece and a wall/elevation sides for it
Then have stairs be just a stair thing going from half height to full height of a standard piece

You can assemble walls by just stacking pieces on eachother

[clever mountain]

12/24/36 yeah

72 is the wall height

It's more for tyrants

[pseudo flicker]

In retrospect i think the different sides indicating terrain wouldnt transfer well, so i suggest trying out magnets maybe?

[clever mountain]

Magnets were always the plan

A 10 by 10 board with 100 3mm magnet holes

[pseudo flicker]

Well the exact height of a wall is imo not relevant xd

[dense crest]

yes? I think

[pseudo flicker]

If you have building blocks you can just have fun

[clever mountain]

Trying to get it to look correct mostly hahaha

[pseudo flicker]

ACTUALLY

Lego would make good maleghast terran

[clever mountain]

Hahahah

Yeah

But no

I'll pay the money

[dense stratus]

too bad lego costs a kidney these days

[clever mountain]

Nope

For like

Lasercutting and magnets from shopee

Shopee

[pseudo flicker]

I never checked the price of lego <clueless

[clever mountain]

So hmm 200 magnets

Minimum probably more

Base square is 6mm tall so the floor is technically 6mm from the bottom of the board

[glacial junco]

I'm trying to find some premade 3d models for use with my printer to see if i can make some appealing modular terrain. But i don't want to just print cubes

[clever mountain]

I'm just lasercutting

Cheaper for CUBEEEE

Gonna do a cover of glue and make a gloss black thing

For obsidian like terraine

Terrain

10 by 10

[dense crest]

Or fillament printer

[clever mountain]

So like 400 mm by 400mm potential play area

With 40 by 400 and 40 by 320

To fill in the ends for 1v1

Then lots of CUBEEEEE

[compact crow]

I get that I'm critiquing the game but you don't have to sick the inquisition on me

(I'm kidding btw, I know what you mean lol)

[ember thistle]

Is there a general consensus on what happens to the tokens on an unit brought back by Miracle? My gut tells me they are lost, but would like to hear a second opinion.

[tulip crane]

I believe they're lost. Dieying is a very powerful cleanse.

[glacial junco]

Consensus in the past has been, since they are Slain first by default they lose all their tokens.

[clever mountain]

What happens to a big model on like 2 different levels?

[glacial junco]

They are treated as if they are on the higher level

[clever mountain]

Ah hmmm

How to make placing it on 3d not a nightmare

[glacial junco]

Sticky tack on the corner

if the base isnt too heavy

[clever mountain]

Haha

Mhmm

[glacial junco]

Blue tack is the DMs best friend for making scenes cooler.

No more balancing stuff just stick that kobold right on the wall

[clever mountain]

Tranlsuscent elevated stand

Hehehe done

[zinc solstice]

The sad thing del Milagro Doloroso is indeed it still is painful.

[primal nest]

They NEED it

[dense crest]

I mean
It is in the name

[primal nest]

Also cool map

[dense crest]

The real question is
When are we getting the ACT to PET the doggo?

Btw where we report spelling mistakes in the pdf?

[zinc solstice]

I will keep it as a theme in mind for my pet house

[glacial junco]

Black Mass: Pet Cemetery

"Out to a farm"

[zinc solstice]

It IS a faction entirely comprised of reanimated animals tho

[dense crest]

Will we have chimeras?

[zinc solstice]

The basic-ass Scion (no thralls) indeed is a two-headed direwolf

[dense crest]

May the necromancer have a ACT : Pet ? Maybe give vitality to a unit

[dense crest]

Good

[zinc solstice]

Big buff, SOUL ability, must be adjacent

[dense crest]

even better

It is an obvious question but better safe than sorry:
If someone Grazes (PHYS DMG) an unit that has ARM (PHYS), it is reduced to zero and nothing else happens, right?

[compact crow]

As far as the rules say on the matter: yes!

[dense crest]

thank!

[compact crow]

Though someone with actual experience in the game can correct me lol

[dense crest]

Yeah I am kinda-
Over preparing before my first game honestly

[compact crow]

Same here, I was supposed to play my first match last night but my friends ditched on me, the bastards >>

[dense crest]

sadness

[lethal trench]

correct, yes

[real bane]

That's correct, grazes do just 1 damage of the attack's type and nothing else

[compact crow]

I have a question of my own: If a unit kills an Abhorrer with their Act, and then Moves into the Abhorrer's space, what happens if the Abhorrer is revived at the end of that turn?

Would the Abhorrer be pushed into closest unoccupied space?

[real bane]

Makes sense to me

[lethal trench]

most likely

[real bane]

I don't think the book says anything on the matter

[dense crest]

If I am not mistaken the only revive effect of the Abhorrer is trigged as soon as the unit is slain, so it don't give the opposite player enough time to actually move over the corpse token.

[cinder isle]

it says it happens at the end of the turn, so

if they ACT first, they would be able to

[lethal trench]

Miracle happens at end of turn, yeah

[dense crest]

https://tenor.com/view/sad-depressed-gif-18156606

To the pits I go

[compact crow]

I think it's the end of the turn so that multi-hit attacks don't instantly down them again

Lol

[cinder isle]

ye

[silk storm]

I think the bit about getting bonuses against units with Doom would be a cool way to solve this. From a baseline, literally only Vizigeist and Dark Priest have ways of benefiting from doomed targets.

Another way that could be interesting/improved is if Doom were reworked into a stacking token. Maybe each Doom stack does 2 devil damage, can stack, and then ways to remove them remain the same.

[silk storm]

I've actually been working on this a bit, and have a full design made. It's mostly a problem of figuring out exact material choices. MDF looks kinda gross, so I'm considering acrylic, but it's much harder to read text off of laser cut acrylic, so I'd need to paint it. I have been hitting peak exam season, so I'll probably get properly started in january.

[glacial junco]

That seems like a cool idea

[silk storm]

it's mostly 2.5D, where higher terrain uses .25" thick pieces, and non high terrain uses .125"

tokens have their stats laser etched in, and a little pod for a mini d6 to track HP

It's a fuck ton of pieces I need to laser cut though so it's mostly that I need to make a massive illustrator file and figure out a good time to piss of lab techs lol

[glacial junco]

Idk I kinda like the MDF but maybe it looks different irl

You when he changes all the base stats in a few months /s

[silk storm]

Lmao

Hopefully he won't change too many lol

Now that I'm thinking about it, I need to do a paint job this week so I might take that chance to do a test paint on the egis

Want to try spray painting it to hit the grooves, then wiping off the top coat

[glacial junco]

I bet I could copy that idea of the board and tiles but do it in PETG print. 4 small 5x5 boards that could all connect to each other and have like, 1inchish tile slots

[glacial junco]

How BIG are those 2 tiles?

[shut scarab]

This rips.

[glacial junco]

The plate throws me off so much haha

[shut scarab]

I might just use an oil wash or stain on the MDF that might be easier then spray paint

[silk storm]

Currently the tyrants are about 3.75"x3.75", and the singles are 1.75*1.75

[glacial junco]

biig

[silk storm]

Was just looking into it and was thinking I may paint the entire sheet a certain color, then laser away the paint

[shut scarab]

That’s not a bad idea as long as you’ve got ventilation

[silk storm]

I do 🙂

[glacial junco]

At least being flat makes it all nice and easy to transport

[shut scarab]

Awesome. I’m excited to see it when you try!

[silk storm]

They're pretty big right now, my main concern is having space to both fit a mini d6, ability text, and art with reasonable resolution

[silk storm]

I will definitely be posting when I do 🙂

[tulip crane]

This is a fair solution as far as limiting unintended side effects, but it's biggest strength would be in allowing Doom to not be useless against houses that have easy access to cleanse. Doom would remain unreliable, and as a Deadsouls player you usually want to leave doomed units alone (and possibly walled up) to let time finish them off. Doom is hard to design around, and I'm not confident about making it easier to proc nor harder to remove without changing its big effect on round 4 end, so I think I'd instead look into isolation and wall bonuses.

[shut scarab]

I’m curious to see how the game plays IRL too. I haven’t played at all yet but I know the game is made for VTT in mind. I’m planning on using my miniatures as they get finished up. But this tile system is sick too

[tulip crane]

By the way, did you manage to finish the paper, Mr. dot-com?

[silk storm]

Previously Deadsouls had really strong walls and Tom removed them very quickly iirc

[silk storm]

I did, thank you 🙂

[silk storm]

Yeah, one of the problems I have with it is figuing out tokens. I think I'm going to laser cut some small disks of different colors to use as the main tokens

[lapis willow]

I think the 2.5d approach is perfect for in-person play tbh - the game is super arcade-y for a skirmish game imo, and you really don't want it to get bogged down with weird 3D terrain interactions.

[lapis willow]

Have u considered unit cards that are kept separate from the board? Easy way other skirmish games do tokens

[silk storm]

That's a good point but it's also about DFM principles, if I made it 3D, manufacturing all of that would be a massive pain

[silk storm]

I figured there's so much customizeability, it'd just be easier to use the unit tracker sheet in pins

but there's no reason you couldn't make cards work

[shut scarab]

3D terrain is just sick really there’s no other reason to use it besides it’s awesome

[lapis willow]

I totally agree with you, it's why I have a full queue of malifaux terrain ready to print rn lmfao. I just feel like the rules & play of Maleghast work best when streamlined as much as possible

[tulip crane]

I'm unsure what you mean with "strong walls." If you mean "hard to break," I can easily see that. I just think they could use more ways to use walls like Banshees and the Bound Devil. The latter is particularly problematic because it's good in theory (sacrifice walls for a burst of damage in a burstless faction!) but in practice it's very expensive for something that might miss anyway.
(Chosen's Kidnap is really good for isolating targets so I think it's the one unit that could use better Doom chance instead of other buffs, if it were to be buffed)

[silk storm]

iirc they just had more ways of generating walls, but it really slowed down the game in a not fun way

[tulip crane]

Oh, I'm sure. That's the thing about this kind of gameplay; you design thinking about how you'd use the tools to win a game, and how you'd play against them, but sometimes you forget about how good they might be at turning a defeat into a draw.

[silk storm]

Seems like that's where abhorrers seems to be near rn

they have a pretty high draw rate

could just be people haven't figured out best way to use them tho

[spice stag]

quick question. Do you have to roll a separate die for effects or is the the on hit roll the one that counts towards the effect happening?

[silent sluice]

the effect die is separate

[spice stag]

ok thanks

[cobalt junco]

I've only tried this in one game so far, but if you are playing with any Malice above Spite you can grab Drifting Blossoms and Merciful Snowdrop Cut - theoretically being able to get in and do 5 damage on turn 5

It worked but it was a 1v1v1 and the other player and I drew

[silk storm]

Seeing how the meta changes at different malice levels could also be interesting, not sure we have enough data though

[torn hare]

I am very excited to see how these turn out eventually, especially with the paint and different faction colors and stuff

[terse depot]

I know that both Abhorrers and CARCASS have an extremely effective build at Spite that other factions have problems matching-this problem is much less aggrieved at 4 or higher

[pseudo flicker]

carcass has a lot of good builds

with higher dp they are better at doing them too

dp for abho is a big problem tho

because in their case it is much more about encouraging them to be stronger late, which is a lot of the time a luxury

[glacial junco]

just to read one of my new favorite game note from the game tracer sheet:

They tried to send me straight to god, I simply did it first

GoregrinderVsCARCASS

[silk storm]

New colors just dropped. A little gross looking, but extremely useful for debugging the analytics page, since if your entry is not the correct formatting, it will not properly highlight

[silk storm]

@glacial junco 🙂

[glacial junco]

You turned the google sheets GAY

Good job

[silk storm]

YEAH

🏳️‍🌈

You can change the colors if you want, I tried darker colors a bit closer to the proper faction colors, but it looked even more like vomit

[glacial junco]

Nah i was watching you do it lol

I wasnt sure who was doing it at first

But i was honestly like Yeah that looks good

[silk storm]

cool new dropdowns also

A bit easier bc they do automatic coloring, but can still be overridden if needed

Gone are the days of tracking down a spelling error somewhere to fix the analytics page

Also put in a dropdown for Malice level while I was at it

[dense crest]

oh yeah, i want to ask again
For spelling mistakes, art mistakes/etc from the pdf, anywhere I can post about them so Tom can correct it when possible?

[pale echo]

not specifically

I don't think Tom is collecting that information

unless it's misleading for how the game is played

[hollow marsh]

You guys run maleghast games? Am new was wondering if I could spectate a game or be able to play in one to learn.

[umbral cipher]

You can just ping the role and find somebody to brawl tbh

[glacial junco]

The Errata doc in the pins are where most people post it

[crisp night]

after a long hiatus from the game because of being stupidly busy im finally gonna give carcass a second try

[silk storm]

Here's a dedicated maleghast server https://discord.gg/UZ7gw4gv

lol at carcass being perfectly balanced rn

[spice stag]

<@&1169764878454620231> duel?

[dense crest]

thank

Done, wrote the spelling mistakes I found, hope is not confusing

[silk storm]

I don't know if you were the person who wrote it, but noticing that the blood on Penny Dreadful's leg is red instead of magenta is CRAZY

[dense crest]

Yup! Is me
W-why crazy?

Look, clear as day

[silk storm]

That is so hard to notice

I'm just very impressed lol

[dense crest]

Why thank ya!

Also, looking at her again, here is also red, not magenta

there added

[silk storm]

oh true

[proven flame]

the original color was probably red, and then when they went over it with magenta they missed a few spots gfdkjhnkgfj
i do it all the time ._.

[nova mason]

I think the lenses being red might be intentional but Idk

[silk storm]

no idear

death of the author and all that

except the author is very much alive and sometimes will tell you that you're wrong

[pure ether]

Death of the Author but referring specifically to the Death that the Author can inflict On you

[old stone]

Abaddon means doom or destruction
Oh dear we are in trouble
"I am become Abaddon"

[dense crest]

"Abaddon what does it mean?!"
"Lol" the crackling destroyer that roamed the sky said
"Lmao, even" it continued, each world tearing the world apart in it's most pure essence.

[broken dock]

hi, does anyone have any tips for a gargamox player going against a goregrinder army thx

[next basin]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-knife-rainbow-smile-distorted-gif-17946225

[craggy iron]

SCUM

(or Leech/Rotten. basically anything that has armour will help you)

[broken dock]

thx

[dense crest]

Any tips for CARCASS?

[glacial junco]

Dont let them get close.

Keep your goblin alive

Your enforcers slap.

You can reload when already loaded (this is important for DevilBullet/goblin shenanigans

[dense crest]

Wait so you can stack reloads?

I know Goblin + Bone Gear is a kowl tactic

[pseudo flicker]

Rottens are very good in that scenario and infect us very potent to clean up bloodrage

[pseudo flicker]

3 enforcers

[tacit cedar]

barrelform mark for death

that's the tip

[pseudo flicker]

Barrelform is meh actually

Goregrinders are very easy to kill and blood rage eats up vulberable

Barrelform is also very vulnerable and will get run over and die

It doesnt have its normal range advantage as goregrinders can move through units

[tacit cedar]

lol

[pseudo flicker]

Dont forget retaliation having no range so it can die without ever being hit

I would suggest 2 enforcers, 1 goblin, 1 egis,
Or 3 enforcers, 2 goblins
3 enforcers, 1 goblin, 1 egis
2 enforcers, 6 wights

Wights are good against retaliation builds as they eat it up and give you soul

Egis is good as it crazy tough against goregrinders

With wights you want to take STG

Goregrinder necro tends to be in action so stg might be harder to proc as they are likely ti have bodyblocks

Hence why you want to take something that both takes a hit and deals aoe damage

[real bane]

#icon-resources message

No idea how isometric maps would work in any VTT, but I made a quick attempt at one with the linked tileset by @marsh anvil

[dense crest]

.
Oh
I need to do tests
Like for yesterday then
I was thinking in running a basic 1 of every unit + Bone Wall, Shotgun and Double Tap

[bleak folio]

iirc its by modding hex grids basically

wait not a hex grid, square grid

basically just tuning them to be diamond shaped

[real bane]

huh, I'll give that a shot then, thanks!

[glacial junco]

Not exactly. You don't get extra shots. Loaded and Unloaded are binary. Its just you CAN reload even if you are loaded.

This is important because it means ammo goblin can give strength to people who don't need to reload

and for your operator it means they can spend a turn loading a devil bullet instead of taking an offturn to shoot their weapon to become unloaded

[dense crest]

Makes sense, thank you

[dense crest]

Also, 2 E, 1 gob and 1 aegis is basically
Protect aegis, flashbang everything and spam Aegis with Goblin?

[pseudo flicker]

Yep

Goblin is good for movement restriction and giving strength for cleanups

[dense crest]

Wait Gob is good for mov control? How I might have missed something

Oh yeah with destructive Glee right

[pseudo flicker]

Bone shards

Its a flashbang combo

[dense crest]

.
OH

thank

[torn hare]

Poetry

[dense crest]

Does it rhyme?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFqFLo_bYq0

[primal nest]

a friend came up with a brilliant headcanon that Abhorrers return to life in 3 days instead of 6

[silk storm]

Based

[dense crest]

HAH

[compact crow]

Would the Penitent with the Vitality token have cover from the Strigoi here?

[glacial junco]

Is that a elevated platform?

in the middle

[compact crow]

The white portion is elevated, yes

[glacial junco]

I'm pretty sure it would have cover then yes

[dense crest]

For a moment I though they where dancing skellies

[compact crow]

Lol no i just forgot to download the relevant corpse tokens from the map doc so I just used a free asset from my DnD campagins

[compact crow]

So if the Strigoi goes onto the elevated platform that would become a flat attack rolls without bonuses?

Cause I assume he'd still technically have cover, then the +1D from being elevated would cancel that out, right?

[silent sluice]

elevated spaces don't provide cover from attacks made by characters on top of elevated spaces

[compact crow]

So that would be a 2d6 attack roll?

[silent sluice]

hm actually

[glacial junco]

I'm actually second guessing my cover statement rereading.

[silent sluice]

I'm not sure

[glacial junco]

ok i have reread the rules

And I am pretty sure the penitent has cover

because if you drew a line they are past that line as per cover in the book

Now to read the OTHER question one sec

[silent sluice]

it seems it would still have cover with the caveat that cover only applies to ranged attacks

but as long as you're on the other side of the line, then they have cover

[compact crow]

Right, gotcha. So the Strigoi's best bet is to get elevated to negate that cover

[glacial junco]

OK Rules as written you would have cover but they'd have accuracy so it cancels out

[compact crow]

It missed anyways 😭

[dense crest]

Just say "IT'S OVER ANAKIN I HAVE THE HIGH GROUND" for bonus intimidation tokens
||They do absolutely nothing||

Also

[primal nest]

also pretty sure melee doesn’t care about cover?

[lethal trench]

Cover only applies to ranged IIRC, yes

[compact crow]

The Strigoi is the winged monster in the corner and it is using a ranged attack lol

[primal nest]

Ah right

[valid wedge]

Does the Vizigheist's Urgal Blade attack need to hit in order to trigger the move? Or does the effect happen even on a miss? The Effects rules on p15 seem to contradict each other.

[spice stag]

It needs to hit since its an on hit effect.

[valid wedge]

Man that makes vizigheists so risky. If they miss, it's easy to get cought out in the open and deleted.

[spice stag]

Thats why they have the shriek move your supposed to use early on

and also they have a 5+ defense which is insane to try and get through so they'll be fine for the most part.

[torn hare]

can someone tell me real quick what the "holy body nuke" is exactly?

[spice stag]

stack vitality then use it as strength when using Indignation (which is an auto hit ability that reaches the entire map and ignores line of sight btw LOL)

definitely not op in the slightest

[torn hare]

lol thx

[spice stag]

np

[torn hare]

uno mas: plague counts as a negative token, yes?

[spice stag]

correct

[torn hare]

it's weird cuz they're positive tokens as far as the gargamox player is concerned. doom specifies that you can remove it as per usual negative token removal rules, but plague doesnt. nowhere does it explicitly say plague is negative

[spice stag]

Plaugue still counts as a negative token to Gargamox they just mechanically aren't affected by it/immune

[junior elbow]

I mean it's implied by plague being ignored by Garg effects

[torn hare]

ahh okay that makes sense yeah

[junior elbow]

"Here's this super cool and good token that you use also your faction can ignore it and nobody else can" would be a little tonally dissonant I feel

[spice stag]

The only negative token that is both simultaneously positive and negative is berserk I think

[junior elbow]

Idk it costs 6 vit to do which requires a lot of setup and focus and doesn't even kill most things

You can counter play it by just. Attacking the Holy Body

[junior elbow]

It's not a negative token it's a token that's both positive and negative

Mutation is like I can be positive and negative, or neither, when it suits me

[spice stag]

yeah pretty much

[spice stag]

you can get 6 vitality turn one so its pretty easy to do. I wouldn't hate it so much if it wasn't literally an auto hit ability that reaches the entire map.

If they had to roll the hits I wouldn't care tbh

[cinder isle]

if they had to roll the hits it would probably be pretty bad

[spice stag]

I shouldn't say roll the hit but like roll an effect die, like they have to roll 3+ or 4+ or something like that

[junior elbow]

I mean it's not particularly hard to pump 3 damage hits or negative tokens onto the Holy Body

I haven't had too much trouble with it cause the holy nuke has to be your whole build

[spice stag]

I think thats just choked up to people not knowing how to play Abhorrers correctly cuz anytime I play against someone who even slightly optimizes their Abh list its a slog to even touch the holy body let alone kill them.

I genuinely think Abhorrers are like top 3 if you optimize them correctly.

[junior elbow]

Top 3 of 6?

[spice stag]

yes

[rain ocean]

agreed on top 3

was kinda surprised by the winrates, they're a little weird at first but I don't think they're super hard to do well with

[spice stag]

Its my honest opinion that the winrates are low because they're playstyle is so specific and any deviation from it is really bad but once you know the playstyle, matches against them are real annoying to play.

They essentially have priority the entire match and gain even more prio on round 4 for literally no reason lol

[umbral cipher]

Let's try to avoid slinging around terms like 'degenerate' here

[spice stag]

my bad didn't know that'd offend, I'll change it real quick

[umbral cipher]

o7

I just wanna head off posting that implies (intentionally or not) that playing whatever is bad and/or shitty of the player

[rain ocean]

I have some more complex thoughts to share about them, but I'll hold off on it until I have time for my full writeup

[spice stag]

Yeah, that wasn't my intention. I don't want the players to feel bad for playing them 😭

[umbral cipher]

That's good then!

[spice stag]

Obviously I have no ill will towards any player whatever house they play. I'm going through all of them myself

[umbral cipher]

It's just one of those things that gets picked up and reused a lot in the gamer sphere that's not thought too hard about, don’t stress it

[spice stag]

cool cool

[junior elbow]

Replacing it with "going goblin mode" from here on out /j

[umbral cipher]

I still gotta try out Dead Souls or Abhorrers...

[junior elbow]

Been having a blast with Deadsouls

[umbral cipher]

but i also still need to playtest my damn 'brew

[junior elbow]

Played like 4 games before I won

[umbral cipher]

Dsouls seems to be tricksy haha

[junior elbow]

They're kind of like Abhorrers but harder and more interactive

[umbral cipher]

Igorri is technically the most mechanically complex but the actual steps of play didn't quite grab me

[dense stratus]

what is the strategy to play abhorrer actually

get antipriest?

[junior elbow]

Stack health until round 4

Kill

[umbral cipher]

Seems to be 'bunker down and beef up till you slaughterhouse' yeah

They start just Okay but really beefy, and ramp up in offensive power as the game goes

[spice stag]

Have penitents on your list and play attritionally until round 4 then run other house over.

[junior elbow]

Penitents are so good

[spice stag]

insanely

[umbral cipher]

love me a good scion in general tbh

[junior elbow]

Mea Culpa my beloathed

[cinder isle]

all the scions are kinda cracked

[spice stag]

real shi

[junior elbow]

Chosen is eh I think

[spice stag]

chosen is really good imo

that kidnap is a gamechanger

[junior elbow]

I definitely want 1 but it's way more of a support unit

[cinder isle]

it's a "support" unit

[umbral cipher]

Chosen is pretty keystone from Dsouls from my read
But it's not quite the same as other Scions

[spice stag]

chosen is like required in half my list for kidnap alone

[cinder isle]

but that support is incredible

[spice stag]

especially in the abhorrers matchup you need a chosen

[umbral cipher]

Chosen probably leans more towards utility because Deadsouls lacks a Freak

[spice stag]

pretty much yeah

[junior elbow]

The thing about kidnap is I only need it to go off once or twice and then the chosen is worse than a Vizigeist or Banshee

[umbral cipher]

I mean... wall gaming

[spice stag]

vizi and banshee are for dps mostly and chosen is mostly supp/utlity scion

and they are great for body blocking since their def is 5+ lol

[junior elbow]

Yes

I mean all of them are 5+

Puppet master w

[spice stag]

real

[clever mountain]

Deadsouls seem very funny

like lol rage funny

[spice stag]

they are very fun to play but they have very little build variety unfortunately 😦

[junior elbow]

They're so starved for health that they need dps to get rid of problem units and they're so starved of dps you have to run 2 Banshees and maybe a Vizigeist to get anything done

[spice stag]

Also the Deadsouls necro is just pretty weak since 99 percent of its extra ACT and Soul abilities are useless lol

so pretty much all lists will have 2 vizis at least 1 banshee and multiple thralls for soul gain

[junior elbow]

Interesting that people've come around on Vizigeist

[spice stag]

Did people think they were bad?

[junior elbow]

Idk about bad but they were definitely thought to be worse then Banshees

[spice stag]

I think banshees are worse dps wise due to the fact that they require way too much positioning to get dps off but its kinda balanced since its a line attack

[junior elbow]

I've come around on Banshees though 2 lets me get a pretty good wall engine going wherever I need

[spice stag]

I also use banshees way more for walls as well in matches ive played

[junior elbow]

I've done like, 6 damage with a single banshee attack through a wall

Which is plainly just more than a Vizigeist will ever do

Single banshee curse* I suppose

[spice stag]

I think about it terms of which is gonna get more consistent dps and Vizi will most like do that more than Banshee who has more potential dps

like good players will just position away from banshees or just straight up kill them early game from what I've seen

[junior elbow]

Kidnap -> strengthened Bale Scream has turned games around but I could definitely see Vizi taking that spot

It just has a little less utility since I've felt like 1 weak on 2 things is worse than 2 weak on 1 things

[spice stag]

I also think that vizi on loathing and higher is just straight up better cuz the terrorize bonus trait is insanely good

[junior elbow]

And good players aren't leaving units isolated if they can help it either

[spice stag]

whereas the banshees bonus traits arent that good

[junior elbow]

This is true

[terse depot]

Terrorize is very good

[junior elbow]

Terrorize into Terrorize (doom proc) would be devastating but I'ven't been able to get that much damage off the strength so far

[spice stag]

its definitely a turn 1 or 2 thing you have to do since vizi's will most likely die on turn 3 or 4 give or take based how how good you postion

[junior elbow]

Actually I shouldn't say that I cut a Holy Body with it once which allowed me to actually land a couple weak tokens with Tear Soul

Tear Soul is also by far the best act upgrade

[spice stag]

I def agree LOL

Thats what I meant when I said 99 percent of their extras are bad

tear soul is like one of the only good ones

[junior elbow]

This may be because my necro is cursed and I've hit like one Doomblade ever but I'm allergic to rolling with Deadsouls when I can avoid it

1: Tear Soul, 2: GUB

[spice stag]

Doom blade is only really good if the unit is alread ydoomed but its not worth it to try to get doom off wit hit since it mispostions you really badly

[junior elbow]

Actually Lathean Devil Whip is great with Tear Soul

[spice stag]

yes that too on higher levels

[junior elbow]

Then Great Urgal Blade

[spice stag]

GUB is also good higher levels too

as a supplement act since its like usless majority of the match

[junior elbow]

Mhm

I also don't think any of the soul upgrades are very good besides the 1 soul ones

[spice stag]

All other acts are just supps for Tear Soul really

I think none of them are good except 6 soul

[junior elbow]

Partially because of their effects but mostly because I want to spend 90% of my soul on monoliths

[spice stag]

writhing curse sounds good on papaer but once you run it alot you see how bad it is mostly due to it activating at the end of enemies turns instead of the begining

also the pull one is just bad lol

[junior elbow]

6 soul is good but the trade off is that you could've been spending that soul on filling the board with unholy amounts of walls

[spice stag]

true buts its als othe only way you'll actually be able to dps some house because without it you just lose past round 4

[junior elbow]

The main Function of it imo is to isolate units

That's how I use it

[junior elbow]

A. GUB 2. Tear Soul you now have 30 weak

Oh it's the devil Whip with the steel chair

[spice stag]

GUB isnt really gonna help you since without 6 soul you'll probably lose pre or on round 4 and tear soul isnt really enough to dps other necros

this is also especially true because necros can body block which is why you need the 6 soul because getting your tear soul body blocked round 4 plus feels BAD

[terse depot]

Gods I bet

[spice stag]

so many times I try to GUB or Tear Soul past round 4 without 6 soul and it just get body blocked and I lose lol

[junior elbow]

I suppose

I usually try to cask of amontillado their necro rounds 3-5 and spend 1-3 just killing as many units as I can

Then doing a monolith kidnap or punishing an extended necro with a banshee

But I'ven't played That much and every single game has been the surviving necro has 1-2 health

[torn hare]

Well I just logged the first Abhorrer defeat against Gargamox in the tracker 🙃 An embarrassing loss

2 leeches + slime + swell corruption is a real pain in the behind, I tell ya hwhat

[junior elbow]

Slime gaming

[torn hare]

I also positioned poorly and neither my holy boly nor my exorcist could help each other be useful

Yeah fr

[spice stag]

garg def top 1 imo

[junior elbow]

Infect is unhinged

[spice stag]

Agreed

[junior elbow]

I lost a game to them with Deadsouls cause even though I had their necro trapped in a closet a rotten dealt the lethal damage from like 5 spaces away around a corner

Also I Think it gets around body block?

[spice stag]

it technically does but doesn't cuz the necro can just choose to hit you after you body block it LOL

[junior elbow]

Yeah no that's what I mean

Same with the warheads

You either take it or the infect gets you

[spice stag]

I think the fact that it jumps from range two is a little insane. It should just be adjact units imo

[junior elbow]

That's my thought as well but idk

[spice stag]

I've had infect destroy my entire thrall frontline turn 1 with no counterplay and it rubbed me the wrong way ever since

[junior elbow]

There's currently very little counter positioning you can do since range 2 is a quarter of the board or more, but the mechanic might fall flat if nerfed to adjacent
You could also mess with the number of jumps and just what the effects do, since dealing damage is the most significant thing

[clever mountain]

yeah I like the look of the big doom demon guy

but just

[spice stag]

I think it would do fine if it was adjacent since garg has pulls so they would be forced to actually play around positioning instead of just getting free value from across the map

[clever mountain]

ehhh

[junior elbow]

That's fair

They would have other things to do besides shoving my necro in the aciD PIT AGAIN AND STACKING SLOW JUST LET ME KILL YOU

[torn hare]

Not a single infect was triggered this match, oddly

It was the leech+slime ball and the rest was scum

[junior elbow]

Slime gaming

[spice stag]

I think thats because the scion is the main infect unit

[junior elbow]

That does sound like a fun build

[spice stag]

and your necro

[torn hare]

Yep it was a big painful acid pit

[junior elbow]

The infect strength thing + 4 infects passive is wild on your necro

[spice stag]

among other things lol

[junior elbow]

I kept needing to double move to get out

[torn hare]

The embarrassing thing was I accidentally trapped my exorcist with a bolide 😔

[junior elbow]

Behold! This is the power of an angel!

[torn hare]

Lol

I also did not get a single miracle rez

The Will of God is that I should just not play Abhorrers

[junior elbow]

You really weren't blessed this game huh

[torn hare]

Newp

Back to Igorri for me thx

Miracle? The only miracle is how good these corpses taste, yumyumyum

[spice stag]

lol

[junior elbow]

The good thing about Deadsouls is if the gods tell me I shouldn't be playing them (bad dice rolls) I can just use curses to not roll :)

[spice stag]

tear soul ftw

[junior elbow]

The bad news is I whiffed like 3 curses against the rotten that killed me cause they were curseproof in hazards

[real bane]

Elaborate on this? They look fine to me

[real bane]

That was a Host, if we're talking about the same game.

[proven flame]

are tokens still spent, even if they do nothing?
like, would doing an attack on a unit that only has 1 hp still spend a strength to do 2 damage total, or would it not be spent because it dies to the unmodified damage?

[proven flame]

would Gargamox Necro's 3-SOUL unholy vapors be affected by strength tokens?

[real bane]

Is deathburst affected by strength tokens?

[dense stratus]

the unit might be a bit too dead at the moment to use it?

[glacial junco]

Pretty sure you would have to overkill in this situation.

[dense crest]

Expending tokens are obligatory , so yes.
No better kill than overkill

Hyperbeam that lv5 pidgey

[glacial junco]

I believe so

[glacial junco]

Dragonkid has the right if it. It triggers when the unit is slain so Id assume you lose the tokens by being dead

[dense crest]

Doing a small cheat cheet, critics open, do @ me

fixed slow

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/16pQlHDCgyRSn_jERWgEvAN4YDGViTdSh2hNHMq--HiY/edit#gid=1607582952 public link

[proven flame]

it does not state when a unit loses its tokens. its a bit of an abstraction but i imagine that they carry them to the grave- so deathburst uses tokens. similarly, a unit retains its tokens when its revived, such as through miracle or resurrection. thats just like, going rules as written, there is no stated game check that says you clear tokens when you die

[glacial junco]

I don't fully agree but it is true that there isn't anything explictly written either way.

It would be weird if abhorrors could hang on to their tokens after dieing or if units in BLOODGRINDER would respawn with tokens they set up,

BUT

[glacial junco]

LOOK AT THIS COOL ART I COMMISSIONED FROM THIS NERD!

BIIG PILEBUNKER

ME WHEN I GET YOU

[dense crest]

you drew THAT!?
🔫 What the fuck is your twitter/DA

[glacial junco]

https://linktr.ee/swampyyy

[dense crest]

Thank

[tulip crane]

If your opponent isn't using token-based debuffs/damage, you can swap Penitent for Antipriest and pump that vitality much faster.

My Abhorrer list is basically:
2x [SUPPORT]
2x [DAMAGE]
1x Holy Body
> [SUPPORT] is either Penitent or Antipriest depending if the opponent use negative tokens
> [DAMAGE] is either Zealot or Inquisitor depending if you want to go melee or ranged

Drag-n-drop faction.

[latent sun]

would it be uncouth to 🥺 in this moment

[willow gust]

Ohohoho warlord

[spice stag]

Sorry I was asleep, but other than Tear Soul and Great Satania your extras provide little to no value especially compared to other Necros meaning your game plan is essentially gonna be the same every match.

Deadsouls having really bad Extras and not being able to have List variety is the only thing keeping them from being really strong and they are safely just OK compared to other houses. You can def win with them but if you fail to get 6 soul off on round 4 you are statistically going to lose every match or at least draw.

[silent sluice]

I'm surprised people have been sleeping on Twist Sinews

[storm pine]

They're absolutely scary played well.

[storm pine]

Was about to post this exact reply. Would still be exceptionally good imo. I'd still take Necrocide on most builds

Sorry for all these well after the fact replies

On that note, yeah, Deadsouls are more dependent on positioning than any other house I think

Been having the most luck with a double Banshee double Vizigheist and one Chosen mass

[tawny wing]

Seems like Vapor Form would at least be useful for positioning the T4 Great Satania?

[storm pine]

For sure

Also Cyclopean Monolith directly in front of a unit straight into a Chosen Kidnap is a generally strong move for DS. Great Satania setup or otherwise

[spice stag]

Agreed, they rely on positioning way more in order to get optimized dps and have to rely on walling off certain units to minimize taking damage which eats into your potential dps.

[spice stag]

This is my list against Abhorrers as well

but against other houses I have to take thralls for soul gain so I can get 6 soul which is required for like every other matchup

[spice stag]

Deadsouls necro doesn't really need it for positioning since he can already walk through walls and GS is range 2 so its pretty easy to position. You would take the teleport trait if you really wanted to have guaranteed positioning for 6 soul.

and its only usefull after you've popped GS in order to do damage

[storm pine]

Do you drop a Vizigheist for Sacrifices?

Been considering that change

Chosen does very little most of my games, but that one pivotal kidnap combo has been a linchpin in all my victories

So I'll probably keep the Chosen around no matter what

[spice stag]

No you never drop vizi for anyone. They are required in literally every list to have 2 of them. You drop either 1 or both your banshees depending on the match.

2x Vizigheists
1x Chosens
2x(4)Sacrifices

this is my igorri list for example

to play against them

[glacial junco]

Good afternoon Ya'll just as a heads up the GoogleSheet where we have been tracking games for data has been updated with a new sheet for December! Just be sure to log your games in the december page!

(This is completely opt-in and only used for tracking how well factions are doing)

[storm pine]

Interesting. I haven't considered a single mass that doesn't have double Banshees. They just churn out walls and kills like nothing else.

[spice stag]

They are definitely good but like for iggori they are't really optimal cuz even with strength their vitality is way too high for you to dps and also necro has mag armor so they are kinda useless in that matchup

having thralls for 6 soul in order to nuke all units in round 4 is way better

[storm pine]

Haven't played with or against Igorri. Very curious to do so now

Thanks for the wisdom

[spice stag]

The matchup is essentially if you don't get 6 soul off on them you lose lol

[storm pine]

Lol rough

[spice stag]

Deadsouls doesn't have enough dps to get through their vitality and mutation tokens unfortunately

which is why 6 soul is needed to circumvent that

[gritty garden]

guys im sorry, but if i have an ability or an attack with "Range 2", does it mean that i can use it only if my target is 2 spaces away from me, or i can use it even in adjacency?

[pale echo]

You can use it at adjacency too

It's only exact range band if it says 2-2

[gritty garden]

okay, thank you ^^

[pale echo]

a 2-3 does exclude adjacency

[gritty garden]

alrighty

[silk storm]

New December play log sheet just dropped

see pins

courtesy of theja

please log your games 🙂

[glacial junco]

Gmail did almost all of the prettying up and formatting lol

[storm pine]

All the Warlord ACT upgrades look so fun. Obviously I'm not gonna not pick Pilebunker but what else are y'all taking at Loathing and higher malice

I'm leaning Apoplexy or Quench

[glacial junco]

Whats wrong with the pilebunker (partial joke)

[torn portal]

Quench is my fav, you can turn your own berserker tokens into strenght

[storm pine]

Nothing, also it's pretty solidly the coolest upgrade flavor wise. I'm a big Armored Core fan. That thing is coming to every single GG fight I play. I'm just wondering what other options y'all like, for when I take two ACT upgrades

Pile Bunker and GUB forever

[glacial junco]

Yeah I second Quench. Having a emergency cleanse is always nice

Furious Roar can let you fix a map real quick

[spice stag]

Is there a way to see the overall winrates for the month of the older sheet?

[glacial junco]

Yeah

oh

I mean the table from last month is still there

but that might not be what you mean

[spice stag]

I mean I want a way to see the accumulative winrates of each house

"What percentage did x house win last month"

[glacial junco]

Like that or

Oh like a pie chart?

[spice stag]

yeah thats it thanks

Also damn I didn't know ya'll were having that much trouble with Goregrinders

[glacial junco]

I think its really just a case of 20 people playing grinders and setup black masses getting rolled over early

These rates are a little off because I know there are a lot more abhorror wins hiding out somewhere

as in unrecorded

[spice stag]

true I havent put some of my wins for certain matches so that makes sense

[silk storm]

Our current theory right now is that goregrinders are one of the easier houses to learn, while setup houses like deadsouls and abhorrers are more difficult to learn. Combined with goregrinders being a direct counter to deadsouls and abhorrers, you get a ~66% win rate

Also post your matches then 🙂

like fr please

[autumn crescent]

We're also a relatively small subsection of an existing community. We ain't exactly got thousands of games to sample from.

[spice stag]

This makes alot of sense. Gorgrinders is pretty easy gameplay wise since their gameplan is the exact same every match. They just get alot of value inherently.

[spice stag]

Just updated it with my latest match 🫡

[silk storm]

o7

[short estuary]

My opinyot at this point is that maleghast heavily incentivizes being as disruptive as possible as early as possible, which can make it difficult to work with factions that want more setup time (AKA like half of them)

Goregrinders happen to be the best at doing that because they don't really need that much setup to deal with a lot of factions

[primal nest]

gargamaxxin

managed to survive 2 holy nukes. leech came in clutch with swell with corruption and chump blocking the exorcist

[primal nest]

Time to type this up in the sheet since I haven’t done that yet

[pseudo flicker]

https://tenor.com/view/invader-zim-movie-enter-the-gif-14899370

How did it happen?
Pondering

[primal nest]

Well first one killed all my scum

Then 2nd killed my rotten

[pseudo flicker]

Did they do it early and then recharged?

[primal nest]

Both did 5 dmg total to my necro

[primal nest]

Did it round 2 and round 4

[pseudo flicker]

Ohhh they targeted the necro

Imo a mistake

Its better to use to clean the table and then end the necro because its undefended

[primal nest]

Ye

I was also rolling pretty poorly

Didn’t hit my first necrocide and my pustulate did proc

It was a very close match

[pseudo flicker]

Wait is that a 0 penitent mass??

[primal nest]

Yup

[pseudo flicker]

Cool!

[primal nest]

It’s basically “press the GRAND DAD button” build

[pseudo flicker]

I really like the portrait for myca :3

[primal nest]

He swaps around one priest with a penitent on occasion

[primal nest]

Thx!

It’s only temporary

[pseudo flicker]

Did you take it from somewhere or is it a piece you got for them?

[primal nest]

Still working on her art

[pseudo flicker]

Ah

Okie

[primal nest]

It’s taken from somewhere

I don’t remember the artist name that drew that on the top of my head

[pseudo flicker]

Okie

Your mass is like
Mushroom themed?

[primal nest]

Yeah!

[primal flame]

Me when mushroom spotted

[primal nest]

This is the WIP I’m slowly chipping at

[pseudo flicker]

I need to make more mushroom stuff for tabletop sim tbh

The only thing i got rn is the fairie circle

[pseudo flicker]

Little mushroom dude on the back :3

[primal nest]

Just a lil homie

FESTER STONE (Rotten) - A dubious Devil Club bouncer that got dumbed into a ditch after a bad run in with the mob. Myca found his corpse just before his revival and used it to grow a bed of shrooms for dinner. Didn't work out right so now he just hangs out with her and carries shit. Plays a mean sax.

THE FOOTSTOOLS (Leeches) - Twin Mox Caps embedded in two bent-over-backwards corpses, always by their plaguelord's side when her feet grow weary. Their facial orifices become stuffed with eye shaped peridoles for spreading Myca's personal fungal strain. Given the names Chips and Dip by a nice elderly woman on a tour.

MOLDMEN (Scum) - More of a personal experiment than a worthy army of thralls. A gelatinous mash of yeast and bone birthed from a desire to understand the full extent of the Filth Devil's gift. Tastes like sweet and sour chicken.```

And this is all the background stuff

[primal nest]

Also forgot to share the lists

- Plaguelord Myca: Corruptor, Corpse Explosion, Necrocide, Scourge, Insides Out 
- "Moldmen" Scum x4 (2 pts) 
- "Footstools" Leech x2 (2 pts) (Massive Swell) 
- "Fester Stone" Rotten (1 pt)(Catalyze)```

```Abhorrer's Black Mass: Edelweiss Wardens (Loathing)
- "Chi" Exorcist:  Violet Corpse Stance, Grand Oath, Holy Water Flail, Sword Art Drifting Blossoms
- “O’Rowan” and "John" Antipriest: Cleansing Prayer
- "Olive" and "Cross" Inquisitor: Focus
- "Noli" Holy Body: Witness```

[pseudo flicker]

I need to write doen my mass lore more proper tbh

[primal nest]

Is fun!

Get silly with it

[primal nest]

My leeches did have ward and vit (we where playing with invigorating spirits)

[primal nest]

And hey, I got to learn that insides out can be used on any unit in range instead of the activating one

That’s gonna help a lot against gore grinders

[silent sluice]

Did we get confirmation from Tom that it works that way? Because that's not how I read it at all.

[primal nest]

Ye I first assumed it was the latter, but the wording of absolution suggested otherwise

Since it’s also any turn, but only affects allied units

[primal nest]

hey @silk storm is there any spot to put list information on the tracker? i feel like thats something that could be worth tracking

[glacial junco]

The list might be too long but you can always shove it into the section after notes

Idk how to make a value hidden and tied to a cell like the character list sheet

[storm pine]

Guess what I'm converting

[compact crow]

Water to wine?

[storm pine]

No

It's a Rotten

Got the head filed down and mounted on the neck, gonna sculpt his gross slime face tomorrow

[lyric fog]

ooohhh, nice

what's the head from?

[shut scarab]

Beginning of a gunwight

[silk storm]

Like theja said, probably the additional notes section

[storm pine]

You don't miss

[storm pine]

It'a a filed down Kingdom Death bit

It's actually a piece of gear? From the Gambler's Chest expansion. Part of the Crimson Croc set

[glacial junco]

Oof expensive kitbash

[shut scarab]

👑 thank you king

[storm pine]

🫡

[shut scarab]

KDM comes with wayyyy too many bits tbh

[glacial junco]

I guess its cuz i'm a perv that only gets the pinup figures haha

Joking they are nice figurines.

[shut scarab]

How do I know? I agreed to paint it for a commission which is like 3 years overdue 😭😭

[storm pine]

Yeah I even bought some extra. Using it for a lot of Ghast stuff now so

Worth it

[shut scarab]

Models are meant to be used!

[glacial junco]

Pfft

Spoken like someone who also has a 40k army in a box collecting dust

(Me)

[storm pine]

lol

Nice

[barren lintel]

Are there any tokens for the necromancers ? I´ve only seen their portraits.

[glacial junco]

Nah but some people have some custom ones in the google drive

Check the pins

[compact crow]

So if an Antipriest uses Gentleness in one round, and a unit in that round gains its benefit, and that same unit ends another turn in range before the Antipriest starts its next turn, does it gain an additional Vitality token?

[storm pine]

Hey anyone have any ideas for kitbash foundations for Warheads or Banshees?

I have the perfect head for Warheads but I'm having trouble finding that pseudoskeletal emaciated body

And the Banshee pose is just such a specific vibe I'm struggling to wrap my brain around

[glacial junco]

Damn I wish forums were easier to search

[lyric merlin]

tried a game of Carcass vs Igorri and it was, uh, disastrous.

One side having entirely physical attacks that do multiple hits of 1 damage and one side having physical armor feels, uh. Real bad.

especially when most of your ways of getting Strength to overcome that are actions, which means you're spending more time not getting to deal damage while your opponent can literally make attacks that don't even hit and be effective

[primal nest]

Working on some things...

[craggy iron]

:O

[pseudo flicker]

Cyclopean monolith

[pseudo flicker]

Would you like them added to tts as toggleable alt skins for the tokens?

[primal nest]

Sure once I’m done doodlin all of them

[pseudo flicker]

Okey

[primal nest]

Was just planning on making these for roll20 but if you can add them to tts that would be rad

[pseudo flicker]

I can not only add them, but have a single object be capable of switching between different versions of itself

[primal nest]

Sick!

[pseudo flicker]

So if a person likes your tokens more than mine they could press 2 while hovering over the token and itll switch to your version

This is how the modular tiles and damageable tokens were made

Like the monolith above

Next update i plan on adding monolith, homebrew updates, maybe alt floor tile terrain and a person gave me permission to use their retrograde minis kitbash as deadsouls alt tokens

I wsnt to push the qud mod first though.

[torn hare]

Wowwww these kick ass

[primal nest]

Thanks!

Once I learn how the hell halftones work imma give these bad boys a second pass

[pseudo flicker]

I use a filter to simulate half tones

[primal nest]

Almost done!

Just got regular tokens to do

[lyric fog]

<@&1169764878454620231> Anyone up for a match?

[torn hare]

What software you using?

[primal nest]

csp

also im done with these!

gonna start exporting them

[primal nest]

scratch that these markers are getting delayed to sometime tomorrow

got some edits i wanna make

looking alright so far tho!

[shut scarab]

Gunwight continues

[obsidian mesa]

Do walls proc splash damage e.g. if I target a wall with a hit that has a splash proc would a splash still originate from the targeted wall?

[lyric fog]

yooooo

[dense crest]

Niiiice

[glacial junco]

I believe so but I'll dig into it real quick

Reason being because you can infect off walls and Cleave off them too RAW i believe

But thats mainly because they are immune to effects but not On Hit effects(?)