bringing a capfleet without beams on pillars is kind of throwing
#Nebulous: Fleet Command
junior heron
I should play more of my bad overinvested 3beamstone fleet...
supple sonnetBOT
OH WAIT-
It wasn't an E side push. The beams pushed... half E side, half D side.
glad aurora
it's a Nirvana song name. the entire fleet is Nirvana song names
supple sonnetBOT
Their frontline engaged ours E-side, we were moving to flank- and the beams came in through D uncontested.
supple sonnetBOT
...and below.
...kinda just rolled up and beamed people without much pushback.
Which I do not understand. EWR is literally so good. We want to bring it more often, because no one does!
Ash And Gold ↩️
Who doesn't like getting to sweep all over the place and spot everything from 18km away?
glad aurora
doesn't do damage
supple sonnetBOT
...well, 18km is the max range but- you know what I mean.
glad aurora
pubs have no idea what to do with things that don't do damage
supple sonnetBOT
...
No one likes playing support in games. 
glad aurora
people especially don't like playing support when you get zero feedback for it and are entirely dependent on your team (by and large full of incompetents) to act on your support and make it worthwhile
neb is not a great game for rewarding supporting your team
supple sonnetBOT
...right.
...we should really ping for stack play more often.
Pub games are... starting to wear on us.
Unfortunately: ADHD.
restive monolith
The more a team is required to think the less nice it is to play pubs
glad aurora
it is always good to take a break
supple sonnetBOT
...that too.
...yeah I think we're going to take a couple days off Neb. I don't know how many hours we've logged in the last few days but it is probably not one we want to look at. :P
glad aurora
this is wise.
the other day I had an afk frontline, a capfleet that was just so completely no diffed it was depressing, and half of my missiles went into a rock because pyrope's LN can just do 50 m/s complete reversal jukes on the turn of a dime, and then to add insult to injury a missile fire order I cancelled and which couldn't be launched because a reactor got redded and turned off power to the CLS - my last missiles on the boat - automatically went through anyway after I had retreated behind a rock to repair, sending my last missiles directly into a rock
after that experience I just got up, went for a walk, took a nap, and played Minecraft
edgy dove
That’s just LNs, iirc Pyrope’s liners only have Chi-7700 not even dual drive but it might’ve been
glad aurora
it was genuinely unbelievable, I checked the velocity vector and she was steaming full speed away from cover by like 3-5km, so I launched
in the time it took my missiles to get there she had completely turned around at max speed and gotten behind cover
admittedly it didn't help that my frontline decided to "help" by giving her early warning by launching their own missiles (which she easily softkilled), but
supple sonnetBOT
LNs do that. When trying to hit them with cruise salvoes we often have to plot a course that approaches from possible retreat points and activates seekers really early and still sometimes miss. Hitting them with direct fire missiles at anything that isn't knife-fighting range is a dice roll.
glad aurora
one more example of all the nice things OSP gets (doesn't protect them from gun fights where that actually would be nice, axfords chew you up and shit you out before you can un-peek cover, but you can certainly waste salvo after salvo of the missile player's time or make them go afk for lack of targets)
waiter! waiter! flat speed increase for DIRECT hybrid cruise stages!
supple sonnetBOT
Yeah... when we play Liners, we tell them to reverse course before they're even fully clear of the rock, and even when we time it just right so our rear guns let off their last rounds just as they are blocked by the rock, we still get torn up by 450 return fire.
I shudder to imagine what playing a revolver liner is like.
glad aurora
you don't!
revolver LN dies to axfords in like. <1min loss of effectiveness under fire
also lol carriers
supple sonnetBOT
Carriers, yes...
Carriers in pubs are such a mixed bag.
Sometimes our carrier goes absolutely ham and wrecks the enemy frontline.
Sometimes they get missile struck ten minutes into the game and that's it.
Sometimes enemy carriers keep throwing bombers into our dualcello Auroras and we easily survive.
Other times they plot a strike just right, pop out from behind a rock without warning (because no one brought sensor assets) and drop 20 missiles 2km out and then we explode.
glad aurora
yep
good carriers farm dualcello because lol cmd/hoj+cmd/sah torps
unlike LNs you just don't have tools to properly softkill that, which is why some people are bringing a single pavise per ocello these days as tech
edgy dove
one more example of all the nice things OSP gets (doesn't protect them from gun ...
...? Yea it absolutely does. You do use large yard drive and triple RCC on your 450lns, right?
glad aurora
works great against regular axfords or a BB trying to duel you at range if you have BH support, doesn't work if you have greedfords pushing into your mouth
supple sonnetBOT
Right.
...is there even any counterplay?
Ash And Gold ↩️
edgy dove
well yea but that's kinda already a loss condition of letting the close range thing get close to you
glad aurora
yeah
edgy dove
unlike LNs you just don't have tools to properly softkill that, which is why som...
You can bring VLS2+KJs real easy?
glad aurora
broadside ocello is a huge target for them to wobble off of and you don't have 20mm dps to clean up leakers
kj is mandatory for ocello killers but that has the advantage of you likely moving laterally with orbit dodging + narrower bow-in profile
LNs get backpack craft jammers, kj containers, and AD containers, plus possibly offset jam escort shuttle/tug
and they don't even have to softkill if they pay the carrier $20 to fuck off in terms of the SDM bubble
ocellos are anti-jamming tools in a meta where the jamming is on ships they overpen and anti-hybrid tools in a meta where the hybrids are either specifically engineered to kill them or non-existent because cmd/backup double CV exists
supple sonnetBOT
...damn.
glad aurora
funnily enough I think double or triple fast 250cello might become an option in the post-PTB world specifically because 250 bomb actually really messes with nerfed maneuver craft and 250mm actually can hurt sprinter ball
instead of overpenning or being dodged for 15 minutes
there's also the funny thing with ocellos where you go "well, if I know the enemy is going to be using tech to defeat auroras, what do I do about that" and you get some kind of pavise/aurora mix where the auroras clear up the s3h decoys and then pavise cleans up go-straight seekers quite easily
but that's Tech™
supple sonnetBOT
-# 30 something I believe
Athena (she/it) | Wyvern Central AI ↩️
wistful sigh
Clawing our way up the learning cliff sure is difficult. :P
mint sinew
ocellos are anti-jamming tools in a meta where the jamming is on ships they over...
For a different perspective: Ocellos are plenty effective at their role. Their existence as a threat changes up entire ANS missile fleet designs while still being able to go even with ANS frontline which doesn't have nearly as much missile resistance (dual Ax). The meta threat environment being so hostile to CCs is due to their need for a counter from what is otherwise a universally effective fleet comp (dual vaux).
glad aurora
while correct in theory, carriers upend this imo
ocellos have a very hard time stopping 20 torps from thin air and can't provide missile-based air defense due to points constraints, so that's kind of that
AN CV is The Missile Fleet on AN
mint sinew
I suspect there will be an eventually tech shift to "greed Ocellos" especially once carriers become more interactable. It's not like most pubs use their Ocellos to escort other frontline fleets often enough for the mass auroras to pay off if ANS hybrid play remains suppressed
wet root
funnily enough I think double or triple fast 250cello might become an option in ...
What I'm planning to try in PTB-world is 250mm CC + plas/100 LN
supple sonnetBOT
nod
...one last question that's been bugging us, while we're here?
...is there a way to defeat ARAD seekers/validators while also cueing your own PD fire control radars?
Oftentimes due to, well, lack of sensor assets in pubs, we find ourselves in a position where:
- we have incoming missiles
- we do not have ID on them
- we do not have friendly ships nearby to spot the missiles for us
If we set full EMCON and shut off radar, then, to our knowledge, there's nothing to tell our non-flak PD to fire. So if it turns out to be EO or bad chaff geometry or whatever, our hardkill doesn't engage and we get minced. But if it's ARAD and we don't turn off our radar, then even a Killjoy may not save us.
So... what exactly do we do in this situation? Is the solution "just make sure you stay near enough to friendly ships that you have a spotter to tell your Defenders where to fire"?
supple sonnetBOT
...right. That... makes sense.
...missiles are... relatively easy to spot, right?
wet root
Some PDs have visual backup, I know Sarissas do and I think Defenders too?
supple sonnetBOT
Defenders do not.
wet root
Oh rip
Huh, I think Grazer and Sarissa are the only two that have both FCR and vis backup
supple sonnetBOT
...ugh, now we're wanting to go play a match and try to put this theory into practice.
Must resist. We are on break.
wet root
...missiles are... relatively easy to spot, right?
Yes, as long as you're not being jammed
glad aurora
yeah, this is a bit of a "don't stray from your team" thing
wet root
It would be really nice if Blackjacks had a long-range visual backup they would autotask on
mint sinew
Speaking of bad beamstone experiences just had an obvious alt account bring 7 beamstones to fight my team of 2 middies. Effectively won the game on minute 4 beaming out 3 ocellos
They got a stern talking to after that one
late cedar
Ocellos are command support ships, I will die by this statement.
edgy dove
They're also the best 450 duelist in the game
glad aurora
very true, but I struggle to rate gun dueling when missile tempo is so powerful and important (and thus, your ability to stop the backline gaining tempo off you)
mint sinew
Benefit of campaign date announcement: there seems to be a lot more new and returning players getting keen
Downside of this: ANS stacking by experienced players seems to have returned in a big way so I'm doing a lot of teaching newbies how to OSP in quite unbalanced games
supple sonnetBOT
Yeah, same...
That, and begging the universe for an ANS match. We've been finding gun Solomon to be a really good platform for practicing softkill because it has a Scryer and plenty of defensive tools at its disposal, plus no hybrids or EO to deal with (though containers are a bitch), but we just can't get a match in and keep having to run frontline when everyone beelines for container liner or carrier liner.
(We're kind of simultaneously trying to get our softkill game on point, as well as learn how to get past enemy softkill. Figured learning both sides of the equation will help reinforce our knowledge of each.)
mint sinew
Yeah, playing both sides really does help lift your game
I properly learned to CLN when it had just got [THERM] and I wanted to learn how to not die to it
edgy dove
ANS is the more abusable faction rn so it's kinda unfortunate
OSP on its face is stronger but peak ANS > peak OSP now that the more abusable aspects of OSP (sah-pike) got nerfed
mint sinew
I don't know that's exactly it here. I'm not talking about sweaty comp games, just regular pubs including middies
Like maybe it is and these are players who cannot risk a game with someone bringing a sprinterball into a casual pub
wet root
ANS is the more abusable faction rn so it's kinda unfortunate
I think it's also that ANS feels a lot more flexible in how they can bring tools to survive OSP's most oppressive options
Like, if I want to play all my fleets that are actually reasonably viable an equal amount, I would have to play like three ANS games for every OSP game because most of my old OSP fleets are unusable, whereas for ANS I can stick a VLS-2 on an old fleet and it's probably fine
I guess my point is it's less a matter of power as it is a matter of variability, at least for me
I should build a cruise Gale fleet
late cedar
Cargo Container missiles are by far still the goofiest thing I have ever seen.
Makes for very effective mines and radar buoys tho.
supple sonnetBOT
Worst feeling: seeing an incoming CMD/HoJ salvo as a Solomon, going to fire CMD jammer and Killjoys-
And then realizing that it got disabled by incoming Ocello fire literally seconds before the missiles fired.
glad aurora
there was a time once where I played surrender CL without a backup antenna. never again
(also the extra antenna allows for some tech but)
junior heron
<@&942093958551588904> anyone up for some midweek neb?
supple sonnetBOT
I could be convinced to run a few more. :)
wet root
I'm making lunch but I should be around in 25ish
glad aurora
At dinner, unfortunately
junior heron
I shall sit in the boat night channels building a bad fleet until anyone arrives
supple sonnetBOT
We'll be there in a second!!
wicked mirage
<@&942093958551588904> anyone up for some midweek neb?
I'll be there in about 15 mins
wet root
@wooden veldt good jamming and mobility, bad durability, try to stay at 9-9.5km and jam out or dodge incoming fire
supple sonnetBOT
Best game of our life. 
mint sinew
That's a suspicious amount of CCs... Running a 6k?
junior heron
lark DCed
supple sonnetBOT
Got handed Lark's after their internet went out.
mint sinew
Just had WSS as the label for both
wet root
Sadly, it was not the 42.7k damage 1k CC
wet root
Just had WSS as the label for both
Oh interesting, I assume that's because I don't have a callsign currently
junior heron
huh
mint sinew
Sadly, it was not the 42.7k damage 1k CC
If 1k gun LNs can do it then why not 1k CCs?
supple sonnetBOT
Huh, yeah, just noticed that...
supple sonnetBOT
This is...
...y'know I think this is the first time we've ever seen someone put containers on an Ocello.
Didn't even know you could!
quiet quiver
Oh it's worse than I expected
supple sonnetBOT
Internals are... interesting?
Gotta say this is the most unique Ocello we've ever looked at. No idea if that's a good thing or a bad thing, but it's definitely a thing!
Also shoutout to the Axford who brought twenty-one DC teams and fourteen restores. :P
wet root
Also shoutout to the Axford who brought *twenty-one* DC teams and *fourteen* res...
Ah, a Pyropian design
supple sonnetBOT
Y'know, of all the things a beamstone could be carrying...
We were not expecting cruise S3H.
wet root
Yubstones are fun, they're almost as cost-efficient as Raines as a missile hull but you get to be a mediocre beam fleet after you run out of missiles
noble zodiac
and sometimes "mediocre" is all it takes when you have a beam
edgy dove
Well, depends on situation
supple sonnetBOT
"Oh joy, I can't wait to play TF Hemlock today and practice yubbing cruise missiles at people!"
The evil and nefarious Ocello/Monitor/Lineship ball with two Auroras, five Sarissas, and almost a dozen other PD guns:
glad aurora
#yup
supple sonnetBOT
(Oh, checking the battle report, also multiple Blackjacks and AMMs.)
(Our carrier kind of needed to kill their cappers so the blob would split but they... didn't. )
supple sonnetBOT
Yeah. 😔
supple sonnetBOT
oh no
...on the plus side, we softkilled an entire ToT container strike, which we're damn proud of! Watched them all go right by.
At least, we think we softkilled them. All we know is, none of their seekers seemed to be locking us, and none of them hit us, so I'm calling that a successful softkill.
It was honestly quite terrifying to see two dozen containers flying right past our Solomon, but also incredibly satisfying to see so many incoming munitions all miss.
junior heron
...on the plus side, we softkilled an entire ToT container strike, which we're d...
Nice! It's a very useful skill to develop, and can be hard to get right under pressure. Good job!
junior heron
I wonder how much sandshot the quadruple sarissa-raines fleet brought
wet root
Unfortunately that's the game my internet dropped in so I can't check :P
glad aurora
@wooden veldt the torpford was like "there's nothing I could've done 🙁 I didn't int 🙁 you're bullying me, I'm just trying to have fun :(" in the chat for like 15min afterwards lmfao
walked into mid while spotted on ewr with zero means of interacting with craft gg
supple sonnetBOT
...that bad?
glad aurora
I mean, they're one of Jonas's friends, so that tells you everything you need to know
supple sonnetBOT
...we didn't even notice, honestly. We were too busy trying to do stuff with our cappers- and watching in horror as two Ocellos rolled out from cover facing backwards and then ate a bunch of missiles to the broadside.
glad aurora
probably would've been less mad if trying to save them didn't mean I spent the rest of my missiles on ❇️ nothing ❇️
supple sonnetBOT
Ah.
Ash And Gold ↩️
Honestly, at first we were thinking that seemed a little harsh for what we assumed was just sub-optimal fleet building- but taking a torpedo Axford into mid while actively spotted on EWR is an idea of all time.
Thankfully for you though, our frontline absolutely folded; Leviathan's Ocellos were facing backwards and rolled out of cover straight into Axfords and missiles to the broadside, and our Cat's dualcello went wide to flank for some reason and let yours roll straight up the middle.
Our 250 liner wasn't exactly built to 1v1 greedfords...
Or, by the end, 1v3.
glad aurora
yeah, pretty much
if I had tracks you would've also lost the liner (see the missiles not staging on you) and both ocellos (also lost tracks except for a handful of brief blips which let some missiles stage)
supple sonnetBOT
Oh damn, the missiles that didn't stage were yours?
glad aurora
very frustrating match but somehow not moreso than the previous two
see the following
supple sonnetBOT
I was so confused. "Oh shit S3H- why aren't they staging? What?? That liner should be actively dying right now!"
junior heron
<@&942093958551588904> (slightly early-) Boat Night/Evening/Afternoon/Morning! What's our player count looking like today?
supple sonnetBOT
We're around! Might be playing Barotrauma later with some friends but that's a bit up in the air, and we'd love to fit in some Neb now while we can. :)
junior heron
ooh, fun
supple sonnetBOT
Been looking to get some stack play in, anyways.
Be in VC in T-minus two minutes, tops.
junior heron
Barotrauma Station DLC isn't out yet is it?
supple sonnetBOT
Not yet. We're running Enhanced Armaments and some station enhancement mods.
Our partner (that being Cryptid :D) is kind of new to the game, so we're taking it easy difficulty-wise.
mint sinew
Waking up, will be on in about 5 if you haven't caught a game by then
wet root
I'm being a bit laggardly, will be around for game 2
mint sinew
Can we get the PNET server spun up when you've got a second please? We've got a good number today and Neb is busy
plain ice
\ here you go
lime jungleBOT
\ here you go
Fleet 'FIREBRAND' is composed of 3 ships that cost 3000 points:
Fury Warm As Flames : 'Marauder' class Line Ship [Gun PD Sensor EWar]
Revenge Spills Like Gasoline : 'Marauder' class Line Ship [Gun PD Sensor]
Loyal As A Dog : 'Flathead' class Monitor [PD Sensor]
```This fleet uses 2 different missile types:
```yaml
SGM-1 AAM Breathless Void : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR) - HE FRAG [3pts]
SGM-1 CAM A Brick In Hand : DIRECT - PSV(WAKE) - HE SHAPED [1pts]
junior heron
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05rc5j9QxAA
3:55 shows the ship sharing UI
@wooden veldt (I really recommend all the Campaign Devlogs, 37-39 I think)
it's really cool to me at least to see the behind-the-scenes of building a campaign
wet root
lime jungleBOT
Fleet 'Deaf to All but the Song' is composed of 2 ships that cost 3000 points:
Amplify Echo : 'Ocello' class Command Cruiser [Gun PD EWar Sensor]
Ill-Starred Dive : 'Ocello' class Command Cruiser [Gun PD Sensor EWar]
mint sinew
Mandatory caltrop
supple sonnetBOT
That's true, honestly.
4v4 though...
wet root
Caltrop-with-2km-bigger-radius would definitely be better though IMO
mint sinew
I've seen caltrop-with-central-tunnel proposed that would be interesting if the camera supported it
junior heron
What's funny is I think in some of the other devlogs where the map is being shown off, there's other locations such as:
- Columns
- Ravine
- Nyx's Belly Button
- Cloff
- Bumblewood
rigid bison
*watching the devlogs*
mandatory caltrop gaming
supple sonnetBOT
Shoutout to a ruttle that played dead and managed to get itself back online after the sprinter group stopped firing at it. :)
(It was then shot by RPF and its only DC team died before they could bring anything except the reactor up, at which point it evac'ed. 😔)
junior heron
so, before boat night yesterday I played a pub game and accidentally ended up with maybe the most annoying team possible:
- Tug Blob
- Mine CLN
- Mine CLN
- Rocket Shuttles
supple sonnetBOT
oh
glad aurora
jesus
quiet quiver
Did you win?
junior heron
yes
I just went under the map and shot everything I encountered while being mostly hidden behind jamming
I want to try the tug ball in a game where I actually have to go fight something, because I do wonder how well 250 can fight anything at least as heavy as a Vauxhall
(and that "mostly" is "the one time I didn't jam a vauxhall out it insta-redded my radar tug's drive")
rough sentinel
👋 Hey, heard the scene here was still active
junior heron
Yup! There's a pretty regular ping on saturdays, at what would be 1.5 hours from now. But also we'll play throughout the week whenever anyone feels like sending out the role ping.
oak shell
Pick up the Nebulous role to get notifications when we're playing!
junior heron
Pick up the Nebulous role to get notifications when we're playing!
also importantly, it lets you see the boat-night voice channels.
supple sonnetBOT
evil laugh
We're trying out Lark's Ocello fleet. This is so evil.
Perfect map for it too.
supple sonnetBOT
Absolute cinema.
They had all five cap points by the time they got to 500 score due to a big fumble by our cap player.
And somehow our team clutched up and won this.
It was an insane match. We got caught out of position and couldn't jam someone out. Backed up to our other two friendly Ocellos and jammed for them so all four of us were under jamming.
We semi-softkilled several incoming ocellokillers. Two hit the Ill-Starred Dive. Broadside. They killed maybe one micro reactor and a DC locker.
We rushed A with our Sundrives. Then spit to cover points and help take B. Someone's two Liners rushed E and they sacrificed one to push the enemy off points. We almost lost the game to a beamstone ambush but somehow pulled it together.
Job well done. :)
wet root
Very nice! About as close as it's possible to be, it looks like
And yeah, jamming is very good but also not always feasible to actually keep the lock off, depending on their angle and number of Floodlights, but that's what the Raiders are for
One thing to note is the Ocellos' RCS is significantly reduced at certain angles (the so-called Romulan Cloaking Device), which you can sometimes use to hide when straight-on you would be visible
supple sonnetBOT
Evil. Why exactly is it called the Romulan Cloaking Device?
wet root
I have to assume a Star Trek reference but I don't know the show well enough to say :P
But you can easily get a 50% RCS reduction and specific angles are like 65% reduction compared to bow-on
Downside is of course if you are detected you're significantly more vulnerable to 450mm
supple sonnetBOT
Yep. Trade-off.
wet root
I actually don't intentionally use it that often, but it's particularly useful when engaging multiple Axfords at a significant angle, where the alternative is bowtanking one and the other just has a clear flank shot
(Or multiple Sollies)
edgy dove
does 4 blankets actually hide CCs against floods?
Against 1 it does but 2 will still spot you
supple sonnetBOT
...welp, time for a break.
Had a match of all time.
Someone brought dual 250 Ocellos with four Grazers each.
...it went... quite badly for them.
(I dunno what their internals were like, but... they didn't last long.)
supple sonnetBOT
oh my god.
Just had a blue unironically say that ANS vs ANS is more fair than ANS vs OSP. >_<
supple sonnetBOT
I mean, technically a mirror match is by definiton fair- yeah. But- aagghhhhh.
mint sinew
It's less interesting but that's different
glad aurora
bro is not aware of the existence of the EO decoy hardened skin S3H HEKP
mint sinew
Or they are and want an excuse
quiet quiver
They may have also missed the Warbler introduction
junior heron
Wyvern:
- I'm rooting for you all
- I'm only a little bit sorry that I convinced the lobby to play Caltrop
junior heron
they asked for a 3v3 map!
supple sonnetBOT
We brought TF Hemlock. 
junior heron
and Caltrop was originally a 3v3 map!
supple sonnetBOT
Poor blues are about to get yubbed.
junior heron
good news: you're also just a poor blue, so you don't have to know shame or guilt
junior heron
<@&942093958551588904> anyone up for some games?
supple sonnetBOT
oh my god
junior heron
and @rough sentinel
junior heron
***oh my god***
nice job that game!
I didn't realize just how much the s3h HEI --> s2h HEKP would eviscerate those liners
supple sonnetBOT
I am become Big Beamstone, destroyer of... monitors..?
Also Tom did you see the seeker compositions on those missiles??
supple sonnetBOT
HoJ/ACT S3h.
supple sonnetBOT
yes
Anyways I was not prepared to see an incoming container volley and then watch the entire thing go for one active decoy.
junior heron
the other fun part of it was it had 3 small whiplash, so it couldn't even turn around
POOR
supple sonnetBOT
Apparently Shelter expected us to kill every single missile ever fired in the entire war, oopsie. >_<
But yes, please, we need more games. We need to see something that isn't pure CMD torps.
TomZero (Tommy, he/him) ↩️
wet root
<@&942093958551588904> anyone up for some games?
Eating a foods rn
But I'll be around in a bit
supple sonnetBOT
-# having supper with family so probably not unfortunately
TomZero (Tommy, he/him) ↩️
oak shell
I can play in a bit
glad aurora
I'm available, my game just let out
edgy dove
junior heron
supple sonnetBOT
Intimidating image.
junior heron
it's funny because yeah, it's an intimidating image if you don't know why there's a big fog cloud
but if you do, it's mostly just really funny instead
wet root
I forgot to check how much damage that RPF did to the toasty lineship
I think I got too close and a lot of it didn't fuse in time though
Yeah, only 822 damage from 42 hits, definitely wasn't getting full fusing
wet root
Btw @junior heron what was the name of that map? I'd like to add it to the server
I did have minor pathing and camera issues but it definitely felt like a reasonable 6p map
wet root
Btw @mint sinew I have no idea what happened to your second missile salvo, it decided to go for the radarless Sprinter instead of the radarfull Raines (might have just been a matter of the Sprinter being closer and the Raines being out of cone after it acquired), then just... missed
The Sprinter was drives down at the time so might be a missile tuning issue
glad aurora
act/[cmd] on bad track does that a lot
wet root
It's ACT[ARAD]
glad aurora
odd
wet root
But still ACT
mint sinew
These were just slapped on there as part of a quick refit, not specifically well tuned
I suspect it's just a fixed ACT moment
wet root
Also props to the first salvo, the firing one missile then three worked out beautifully
Slapped out the radar and drives on the Sprinter then the other three went for the Raines due to the validation
mint sinew
I suspect it's just a fixed ACT moment
Combined with weave and not quite enough g
That was purely unintentional tech, my full salvo order didn't go through
wet root
Lol, I was wondering if it was intended
mint sinew
I've done it as intended before (and I also used to use Misc's leader S1 missile trick) but this time I didn't know enough about your ships to plan on a split target
I have swing back around on ACT[ARAD] for MMTs again. I keep needing to make shots on the edge of detection range so [CMD] is unreliable
wet root
I'm definitely considering having at least one ACT[ARAD] amongst the ACT[CMD] S3H on those Sprinters
Ahhhhh I found out what happened with my Beamstone
I had not realized that Bullseyes are the lowest in power priority, so when the S2s launched the PD started trying to lock and the Bullseye turned off, and thus it lost track completely to the jamming
I'll need to adjust the power on this thing
mint sinew
I was concerned about that with aurora beamstones when I did the maths
It would be nice to get bullseye prio above FPAs
wet root
It's just Defender/Rebound on this one to resist Rocket Cudas and containers, but depending on how the math works out I might need to just drop the PD entirely
Maybe stick some SDMs on instead
wet root
It would be nice to get bullseye prio above FPAs
I had assumed it was
mint sinew
I was surprised too
If you are just running ballistic pd do you have a micro in yet? I'm surprised you are out of power
wet root
I was running Parallax on it, might just drop to Frontline
mint sinew
That'd do it
wet root
mint sinew
Spend those points on a raider instead
wet root
Probably what I'll do
Might make my ACAP a bit more durable as well
Oh right Raider gives no power, but I have the room for that if I bounce over to Frontline
mint sinew
Yeah, that's the biggest shift. You do lose the ability to break with just drive and micro too
wet root
No beam at all with just drive/micro, even
mint sinew
Thanks swipe correct... I definitely meant beam
wet root
Oh I thought you meant DT break lol
wet root
+dragon
Not a huge fan of Dragon beamstones, I'll probably just stick with no beam if I lose reactor
mint sinew
IMO cap fleet beamstones are best with raiders because responsively jumping out is so important
wet root
I'm a huge fan of Raider Beamstones just universally TBH
glad aurora
I agree but auroras right now is mandatory and you can't pay for the power with raider
mint sinew
Mandatory is a strong word. Meta is more accurate
wet root
And less-so in this case, since I have more anti-craft than most cap fleets
mint sinew
I'm a huge fan of Raider Beamstones just universally TBH
I have a soft spot for the whip ewar escort beamstone, even if it's not great
wet root
I wish escort Keystones were better in general
(Unfortunately my main thought on achieving that is giving the beam a big RCS malus and reducing the base RCS, which wouldn't help with this specific case)
I suppose the malus could be on FPAs instead
mint sinew
In my rare ANS frontline games I've been enjoying a pocket railstone with a VLS-2 full of SDMs and a few mk61s. Play close to the Axford early and then break off in the late game to hold a point
wet root
I do like that idea, kind of similar to my current default ANS frontline
Except I've split the missiles off onto a Raines, so it doesn't end up being an escort Railstone :P
mint sinew
If you instead ditch the idea of using the spinal you can maintain unlimited uptime double blanket by cycling through an extra. It's not always going to hide the Ax but it will keep the keystone off track
(Bloodhounds aren't real, they can't hurt me)
wet root
I suppose you can also keep a couple km behind the Axford if you're engaging Ocellos
Since I think Flood + Bullseye can lock a Keystone through 2xBlanket? Not certain about that though
mint sinew
It was an experiment consolidating my escort frig pair into one hull that went pretty well tbh. The escort gun/ewar keystone is ~100 points cheaper than an equivalent frig pair for 1 fewer mount
wet root
Especially with the power bonus the hull has it makes sense
It's just always painful with how slow and visible they are
mint sinew
Since I _think_ Flood + Bullseye can lock a Keystone through 2xBlanket? Not cert...
Angle/emcon dependent from around 8.2k
wet root
Makes sense
mint sinew
That does highlight the other problem of DD escorts, you are vulnerable to 450 at range. If CCs are trying to kill my Raines escort at 8.5km I am usually okay with that
wet root
Yeah, no dodging or getting overpenned
Also they're just generally going to be a higher target
Anyone who sees <Destroyer> in the intel will be prioritizing it with extreme prejudice
Hmm, thinking about swapping one of my missiles for an ARAD/ACT with a long sprint stage in case I run into jammer MMTs
This gives me 8 points to poke around with, but I will decide on what to do with those tomorrow
Oh right @misty storm
(Zipped to avoid Discord "helpfully" compressing it to a larger size, IIRC)
misty storm
thanks
glad aurora
And less-so in this case, since I have more anti-craft than most cap fleets
not even r2cudas, ruttles
I just got out of a capfleet match where the ruttle caps couldn't do anything to me because I just bshorted 2x aurora at them
rough sentinel
I can pilot a cat? 
wet root
Tragically MNs don't actually have cat ears in-game
You can make them Vinny-coloured though! And put a cat as your emblem
junior heron
Tragically MNs don't actually have cat ears in-game
This is the buff the MN needs.
wet root
I might have to tolerate playing MNs if they did
supple sonnetBOT
Poor Levy...
It got sniffed out by our container liners early and then got hit with five billion containers.
wet root
No Levy deserves your sympathy
oak shell
Especially not a pure bomber levy
mint sinew
I do wish pure bomber carriers got reliably punished harder
I've had a few games where my backpack craft locked in and deplaned a 3k carrier but most of the time (especially with S2 craft) the bombers can run back to safety before I can catch them
supple sonnetBOT
sigh
Decided to try a CVLN on OSP a little bit ago.
Then two new players brought TF Cobalt... and both rushed headlong onto C point and let their Vauxhalls stroll across the entire map uncontested.
mint sinew
So goes the pub
supple sonnetBOT
One of these days PTB will drop and then we can finally start learning carrier in earnest...
Honestly though, the campaign gives you a fleet carrier, so it'll probably be a good learning experience playing through it!
mint sinew
Probably easier to learn multiplayer carrier now while it's cracked tbh
But campaign giving a fleet carrier should be good for mechanics
supple sonnetBOT
True...
Lord Fluffy (he) ↩️
Carrier feels quite fun, TBH. We were having a blast when we dropped in and immediately started queuing up flights right off the bat, getting bombers and strike fighters rolling off the deck and quickly getting them rolling.
At least until we looked over and saw our frontline absolutely folding.
...hey, that rhymes!
mint sinew
I could throw you my levy half cap if you wanted a gateway drug that's a bit easier to fit into teams
I find capfleet carriers pretty safe as you get 3 frontline fleets to cover you (or let's be honest 2 frontline and a pure backline)
supple sonnetBOT
Honestly we'd love that. We can play the OSP starter carrier when on OSP, but being able to play Levy on ANS would be fun. Love the Sundial.
mint sinew
About to jump on a call sorry, will post it in ~30min
supple sonnetBOT
No worries! We're done with Neb for the night anyways so there's no rush.
mint sinew
@wooden veldt I haven't tuned this up in a while but it still holds up well. Levy does most of your actual anti-light killing while the cheap gun caps actually touch points
lime jungleBOT
<@499764510907957250> I haven't tuned this up in a while but it still holds up w...
Fleet 'Levy halfcap 20251213' is composed of 7 ships that cost 3000 points:
Confluence of Creation : 'Levy' class Escort Carrier [PD Gun]
Out Metro : 'Sprinter' class Corvette [Gun PD]
Waxy March : 'Sprinter' class Corvette [Gun PD]
Magic Spare : 'Sprinter' class Corvette [Gun PD]
Spit Alone : 'Sprinter' class Corvette [Gun PD]
The Cozy Grip : 'Sprinter' class Corvette [Gun PD]
Boldly Go : 'Sprinter' class Corvette [PD]
```This fleet uses 5 different missile types:
```yaml
SGM-111 Demister : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR) - HE FRAG [2pts]
SGM-111 Scrupples : DIRECT - CMD - HE FRAG [4pts]
SGM-123 Arming Missile : DIRECT - PSV(WAKE) - HE SHAPED [1pts]
SGT-329 Offhand : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR)/[ARAD(RADAR)] - HE SHAPED [13pts]
SGT-329 Onhand : DIRECT - CMD/ACT(RADAR) - HE SHAPED [14pts]
wet root
I've had a few games where my backpack craft locked in and deplaned a 3k carrier...
I know there's been some push for buffing fighter max speed after the PTB changes, which seems reasonable as long as PTB successfully neuters light strike
mint sinew
The tantos and their token light strike are commonly skipped by the more meta versions of this concept, but I'm using them as most of my anti-craft for the cappers
You could rip the the AMMs and ACMs off the sprinters and trim or cut the tantos to get you even more bombers and munitions if you like
wet root
S1 Prox Bomb? Are those the Fragmentation Bombs?
glad aurora
radar
DC
reactor
big drive, not small drive
FBUs
mint sinew
A single claymore kills a shuttle without a pavise in arc, 2 beats that and m-kills most tugs
glad aurora
that is an ENTIRE SUNDIAL you're giving up
mint sinew
A doubled flight of 4 will hurt most pub LNs
wet root
Hm Fluffy you can probably drop the ammo from the Boldly Go :P
mint sinew
And yes you could cringe out the levy too. This one has the mode of being able to brawl with non-missile cappers on a natural
That too. I think I slapped this one together quickly before a game and never gave it a proper retool. I'll do that tonight
wet root
Yeah definitely looks like it was a copied ship with the guns yanked
Do you find an Rdrive worth it in an ACAP btw?
mint sinew
If you've got 10 points spare, yeah
Less so on shuttles but on sprinters I find the drive/reactor dies before the aux steering
mint sinew
When is an ACap living to use the restore? Smalls aren't durable enough I think
Like you are probably better spending that 10 points on another ship tbh
wet root
Yeah, I only recently got the points when adjusting some missiles, I like the preference for rdrive
Especially since I don't have a reactor
mint sinew
Yeah, if you are stripping the radar/reactor then the RDrive really shines
wet root
Hadn't actually realized quite how tanky a small RDrive is
mint sinew
You can also always reverse in and be "immune" to 100mm
wet root
Big ones are ridiculous
wet root
You can also always reverse in and be "immune" to 100mm
Honestly if I'm running rdrive I probably will
Can't be killed by missiles either
mint sinew
DT 60 is one hell of a drug
wet root
Also currently trying a few S1 HEIs with 5km range, figure I'll throw them blindly at 2.5km from A and hopefully their shuttle will be too far in front of the chaff
Will report back on whether that actually works
mint sinew
I just noticed that per the wiki the BW800-R only gets DT 50... OSP robbed
wet root
I think OSP drives are just generally squishier
BW1500 is 700hp/40dr vs 1000/70 for the FM500
I guess the baseline small ones are the same though
mint sinew
I mostly didn't realise that R-drive tugs losing their drive to missiles was different to Raines
Raines even get 5% DR so DT 50 would be clear
mint sinew
Oh, maybe you do
wet root
I really should use rdrives more in general
mint sinew
Exceed is the word used in the wiki, but when it comes to neb damage calcs it's best to test
wet root
To the Nebnebneb!
Verdict: True!
(This was after the drives were both brought to 0 in the first salvo while everything else was fine
)
mint sinew
Excellent science!
wet root
mint sinew
Time to return to the RDrive addiction of my blue days
wet root
I should really use more rdrives
...is there something I'm missing, or do some of the weapons just not show up on the DC board on tugs?
Nvm I'm just sleepy
And was conflating tug with MN
mint sinew
C4 tug mount 
mint sinew
All the better to mount the MK82
wet root
I still think the Ocello should get a full-depth spinal in the very back C2 mount
It would lead to so many ill-advised creatures, it would be great
glad aurora
3x c90 full ammovator ocello...
wet root
Mount 6
glad aurora
yes, but the only way to ensure full creaturemaxxing is to also allow the gun mounts to fit c90s
B-wing ocello foreheading directly at the enemy
wet root
No, that comes too close to being viable
You have to have people running 4x entirely naked C90 Ocellos all T-posing their way towards you
Or the dreadsome Beamcello
wet root
Bigger and Monitorier
I think the most beautiful build would be the 3xMk81 + 1xMk550 though
Entirely impossible to get the rail turrets on the same target as the rail spinal, but if they're positioned just right you can rail two Axfords at once
mint sinew
First pass update. Will revisit again later and reconsider cringing down the levy. This build does rip off the S1 ACMs from the cappers which were a good tool to check R2 Cuda spam, but that's a choice I am making
lime jungleBOT
First pass update. Will revisit again later and reconsider cringing down the lev...
Fleet 'Caps - levy 20260429' is composed of 7 ships that cost 3000 points:
Confluence of Creation : 'Levy' class Escort Carrier [PD Gun]
Quiet Stream : 'Sprinter' class Corvette [Gun PD]
Rolling Hill : 'Sprinter' class Corvette [Gun PD]
Idyllic Glade : 'Sprinter' class Corvette [Gun PD]
Gentle Wave : 'Sprinter' class Corvette [Gun PD]
Looming Tree : 'Sprinter' class Corvette [Gun PD]
Glowing Cavern : 'Sprinter' class Corvette [PD]
```This fleet uses 8 different missile types:
```yaml
SGM-103 Caltrop : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR) - HE SHAPED [2pts]
SGM-103 Eraser : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR) - HE FRAG [2pts]
SGM-111 Demister : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR) - HE FRAG [2pts]
SGM-123 Arming Missile : DIRECT - PSV(WAKE) - HE SHAPED [1pts]
SGM-134 Eye Poker : DIRECT - ARAD(RADAR) - HE SHAPED [3pts]
SGM-135 Refactorer : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR) - HE SHAPED [2pts]
SGT-329 Offhand : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR)/[ARAD(RADAR)] - HE SHAPED [13pts]
SGT-329 Onhand : DIRECT - CMD/ACT(RADAR) - HE SHAPED [14pts]
supple sonnetBOT
...this is going to be interesting.
wooden veldt
Anyways, shoutout to the player who brought a tug with a Blackjack last match we played, parked it near our dualcello, and proceeded to scramble a ton of incoming ACT[EO] S3H that was coming for us.
Literally saved our life.
supple sonnetBOT
Anyways, shoutout to the player who brought a tug with a Blackjack last match we played, parked it near our dualcello, and proceeded to scramble a ton of incoming ACT[EO] S3H that was coming for us.
Literally saved our life.
supple sonnetBOT
Anyways I suck at playing carrier! :P
Turns out it is even harder than playing missiles, especially when it seemed like every single hostile ship had a boatload of SDMs. :P
junior heron
were you ANS carrier or OSP? It feels easier for ANS to splash some SDM-2s into their ships.
supple sonnetBOT
OSP.
We were just using the carrier starter fleet; it really doesn't give you much in the way of torps to work with...
junior heron
Probably a lot of R3? they used to be way more powerful, so they were a lot more common.
supple sonnetBOT
Yeah, TONS of R3.
glad aurora
yeah
the OSP carrier is awful right now
more or less unusable compared to current state of CVs
supple sonnetBOT
Welp, now we feel a little less bad about our poor performance. :P
We'll have to make one once the PTB drops.
junior heron
I haven't played a Full Moorline recently, but Journeyman + Shuttles has been doing a lot for me. I don't think it's that bad to be dooming about.
supple sonnetBOT
I think Ash might've meant that the OSP starter fleet carrier is awful?
glad aurora
correct
supple sonnetBOT
It does seem... quite outdated.
glad aurora
osp carrier starter was made when OSP R3 CV was unquestionably dominant and then it ate like 30 targeted nerfs
no updates, natch
supple sonnetBOT
It also has a billion fighters that it really doesn't need.
wet root
I think if you rip out most/all of the R3s and replace them with torps it's not awful? But there's definitely better ones out there
glad aurora
can't afford it
one of the crucial reasons OSP CV was so ungodly busted wasn't just that it ignored softkill, it was that its strike munitions were 20% the price of a torp
you'd have to rework the entire fleet and at that point just make your own
supple sonnetBOT
Yeahhhhhh.
wet root
Oh right I forgot how dang many Cudas this thing has
supple sonnetBOT
Going to be running the halfcap carrier fleet Fluffy tossed us for a bit; the updated version.
glad aurora
amethyst was created back when r1 cudas just giga griefed every capfleet known to man
and now they're bad!
wet root
Now you have to use r2 cudas for that instead :P
Oh wow this also is full of A2A missiles
glad aurora
I'm still tempted to go with the insane tech pick of welding an aurora to every ship in a capfleet
glad aurora
Oh wow this also is full of A2A missiles
lys explicitly rejected any starters that were too greedy or tech-y (understandably so, but the problem with presenting a good face for people to learn from/with is that the good CVs are very greedy and very tech-y; how CV balance has shaken out is that you can either have a learning-friendly CV or a good CV)
that's why the winning AN starter fleet for CV is full of SDM frigs, which are extremely bad
wet root
What I'm trying with my new ANS fleet is having two anti-craft S3H on each Sprinter
Won't keep me alive forever, but hopefully I can make the CV player's life real difficult
wet root
that's why the winning AN starter fleet for CV is full of SDM frigs, which are e...
At least the SDM frigs are a bit more effective at defending against enemy craft than the fighters that take cycle time to launch
junior heron
I have been finding my "first launch, dual purpose, higher investment" fighters useful on the Journeycaps.
I should go back to double creature Journeymen fleet...
glad aurora
aurora + TLS + mk61 + vls-1 + whiplash + frontline + srb + pcc + rapid + rmag + bcic sprinter isn't awful
100 rpf 100 he, 6 chaff, arming missile is 267pts before s3h
wet root
That's basically 90 points for the Aurora, that's pretty painful
glad aurora
edgy dove
OSP cv is in a pretty poor state both being worse than ans cv in the strike role, ASF not really mattering, and it exists in the shadow of CLN that's just better
glad aurora
on ptb you can larp act/[cmd] + act/[therm], at least
still not better than unnerfed R2 CLN but
mint sinew
I'm still tempted to go with the insane tech pick of welding an aurora to every ...
The tech I settled on when R2 Cuda spam was at its worst were the handful of S1 CMD ACMs. R2 cudas need to get pretty close to work well so you can actually knock out much of the flight with a few S1s.
Won't necessarily save the ship entirely, but they get attrited hard enough that they can't get the value they need to
I also tested blind aurora picket sprinters as escorts but frankly the aurora doesn't kill fast enough to do better than bulk AMMs
supple sonnetBOT
SO MANY MINES
mint sinew
Get to work tantos
junior heron
I think it's important the new players experience this before it gets nerfed.
(Not really)
mint sinew
Unfortunately you don't have defenders on the corvettes, but hopefully you have fighters left
wet root
*SO MANY MINES*
Please tell me you triggered those mines in the first shot to kill the Moorline
supple sonnetBOT
Unfortunately it still had plenty of craft left to explode us with.
Lark ↩️
wet root
Unfortunately it still had *plenty* of craft left to explode us with. <:dergsob:...
I meant since mines have no IFF once triggered, you could have walked into the minefield and the mines might well have decided the Moorline is a tastier target and murdered it
It's an extremely funny thing to do to a Lineship or ConL that's lurking too close to a minefield
(Since they have much larger radar sigs than a Sprinter)
junior heron
Also note that because the mine uses an ACT seeker*, you can also try to chaff them.
supple sonnetBOT
Oh, yeah, we did end up accidentally scooting into it.
But they all went for either us or (rarely) our chaff. :P
Lark ↩️
mint sinew
Going to be running the halfcap carrier fleet Fluffy tossed us for a bit; the up...
How'd the fleet end up treating you?
wet root
Oh, yeah, we did end up accidentally scooting into it.
But they all went for eit...
Tragic
supple sonnetBOT
It was... simulatenously a bit rough and also fine?
We started off the match scrambling a SEWACs and some fighters off the pad, 50/50 mix of pure interceptors and light strike, meant to head off enemy cap assets. Turns out, since it was a new player lobby, they didn't have any!
We exploded a bunch of the enemy carrier's fighters with our own - then tried to go after a few more, only to be hit with "oops, S2cello full of SDMs!" Lost a good chunk of our fighters there.
Our bombers were doing okay until they also got chewed up by SDMs, forgetting what they got shot from. Our frontline wasn't really frontlining so we had to flank speed out of there for a bit and couldn't launch while we were doing that. Got banged up a bit but the only thing that got greyed out was a single small DC locker.
Our cap assets were the first to discover the giant pile of mines the enemy team had been building on B. We also found their carrier and started plinking it with Sprinters- though it turns out they still had plenty of missiles to bonk them with. And then it turned out they had a random EWR tug and MD monitor just kinda hanging out in the back not doing anything, so we sent a flight of bombers to go strike those, and utterly wrecked them.
Then the match ended; we'd taken 4 caps early, and they didn't take them fast enough, so even though they had three of the five by the end we were just so far ahead in score they couldn't catch up.
Lord Fluffy (he) ↩️
We only got like 5k damage because of the unfortunate loss of most of our bomber wing to the S2cello. We're still trying to find the balance between "sending a lot of bombers to break through PD" and "sending a small amount so they don't get utterly obliterated by a barrage of SDMs."
mint sinew
Nice work. Bulk SDMs will ruin your plans, but that's just how it goes
supple sonnetBOT
That, and we need to scout with the Sundial more so we don't lose all our fighters to a similar barrage of SDMs.
mint sinew
Being able to still just win as an uncontested cap fleet is good
supple sonnetBOT
Yeahhhhh. We have SDMs on a few ships but we never quite realized how badly they hurt until we experienced helplessly watching eight bombers get absolutely minced.
Lord Fluffy (he) ↩️
Technically they were trying to contest with mines- but they put them up too slowly.
Lord Fluffy (he) ↩️
mint sinew
My approach to the first pad cycle is a bit different to what you went with: 2x bombers + 4x vsf tantos to dive a neutral point immediately
wet root
We only got like 5k damage because of the unfortunate loss of most of our bomber...
If you have radar coverage to see the SDMs launch early you can repeatedly dip behind a rock to waste their SDMs
mint sinew
Then work through the rest as needed. The light strike tanto loadouts are mostly backup if you don't need the tantos to deal with enemy carriers
supple sonnetBOT
Right! You can get all those up in one cycle since the Levy has 4 small pads and 2 larges...
Lord Fluffy (he) ↩️
Right. Void superiority first, light strike second.
Lord Fluffy (he) ↩️
mint sinew
All debatable and situational of course. My concept of the fleet is that it's still ultimately the cap fleet, so your early game should be focused on establishing an advantage on that front
glad aurora
if you're a halfcap, 4 bombers instead of 8
especially if you don't know where the enemy front is and how to navigate to it behind cover
wet root
Good news!
(Apparently profile data is not synced in the steam cloud, so it will give you this if you ever install it in a different system :P )
mint sinew
New tech for promotionmaxing
wet root
...right, I forgot, Neb's settings are insane, for some reason Lys decided to store them in the registry???
Rip my settings :P
And my badges ;_;
junior heron
RIP badges :(
junior heron
:D Return In Peace badges!
wet root
Which makes sense, since compressing the badges into the registry would be truly absurd
wooden veldt
\ <@&942093958551588904> I need reinforcements, ASAP!!
(Lighthearted, but also in a Neb mood this evening. )
supple sonnetBOT
(Anyone who wishes to fight the death stack, join up!)
glad aurora
yeah I'm not doing that again
supple sonnetBOT
Honestly valid.
glad aurora
last time it was double sprinter ball + 3bdd caps
supple sonnetBOT
oh.
mint sinew
It's certainly got some of the names I'd expect to bring the sweatiest options to a match they have a rank and coordination advantage to
Not the worst offenders by any means
supple sonnetBOT
...yeahhhhhhhh. I knew it was a gold stack but I didn't know it was... that.
toxic crag
fun hater stack
wet root
I'll probably be around in 30ish if there's a game 2
edgy dove
fun hater stack
Oh hi
wicked mirage
\ <@&942093958551588904> I need reinforcements, ASAP!!
(Lighthearted, but also i...
Still looking for people?
edgy dove
\ <@&942093958551588904> I need reinforcements, ASAP!!
(Lighthearted, but also i...
yoooooo the gamers™
mint sinew
Quickly rebuilt my journeycaps and I got hit with the "bombers decide they don't like those missiles today"
So I very sadly had nothing but 100mm HE loadouts to play caps with
Still won because they had 2 frontline fleets in orbit while my everything else just picked apart their cap fleet
misty storm
I’m curious, how balanced is AvO expansion and vanilla plus?
If anyone’s played with those
edgy dove
I’m curious, how balanced is AvO expansion and vanilla plus?
Mods? Balanced?
Nah but really
AvO I'm not too sure about tbh the hulls look ok but there's a lot of hidden stats and trickery that can make them bad or busted
Vanilla+ is hilariously unbalanced with all of their additions being sorted into:
Bad, stupid, both, or completely busted overpowered
For example:
Bad: Mk67 C5 250 turret
Stupid: Mk570 C3 beam
Both: Mk83 C3 rail
Busted OP: Lot of shit but to me the mk63 C3120, 120 APDS, and OSP beams take the cake
"Let's add a shell that specifically gives frig ball to deal with it's #1 counter way easier I'm sure this'll go over well"
noble zodiac
busted
also 20mm heavy which is Explicitly Better 20mm
edgy dove
I just listed 3 honestly busted is like 70-80% of the mod
The fisher is ridiculous it's like let's give a CH with 7 450 frontal barrels 4 engines and the dodging capabilities of a CL with 40cm armor and BB level angling
glad aurora
apparently that mod also adds 450RPF
edgy dove
yea that too
glad aurora
so I guess it's equal opportunity
plain ice
apparently that mod also adds 450RPF
\ close enough welcome back San Shiki
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Shiki_(anti-aircraft_shell)
supple sonnetBOT
OSP beams?!?
CheeseSlayer ↩️
Oh hey, those!!
We remember reading about them when researching the sinking of the Yamato.
Cryptid: Beaste of Whimsy ↩️
edgy dove
OSP beams?!?
They are hilariously unbalanced like a beam liner that costs ~1300 can k-kill a Solomon in like a minute
supple sonnetBOT
*** o h ***
supple sonnetBOT
wet root
Honestly it's like bottom quartile of fleets in terms of unfairness to blueberries, like it's annoying but the punishment for failing to address it is extremely fair and respondable
Even standard beam or missile fleets are much more punishing
Monstrousness is bringing light cav or frigblob or some of the ruder carriers
supple sonnetBOT
Agghhhhhh-
Just experienced getting ruttle rushed as carrier.
Aaaaaaaaa...
mint sinew
Currently spending a very frustrating game where my frontline decided to all go hang out in the void and refuse to go grab a point that was only lightly defended rather than jumping into A
supple sonnetBOT
mint sinew
We still could have won, but despite me spending 10 minutes trying to tell the (admittedly blue) 450 LNs to just go to B and kill the levy they went to A to feed themselves to 4 Axfords
supple sonnetBOT
Yeah we just had a godawful match where our carrier got rushed by two ruttles before we could get anything other than our first pad cycle off the pad and then died, and then our caps all got exploded.
Didn't even see them until our Levy's radar picked them up. No idea how they evaded detection from our Sundial.
...how do you avoid getting ruttle rushed? Put a Sundial to watch approaches? Hide cappers in positions to spot them early? Hope your teammates spot them and then actually tell you you're being rushed?
Roll the dice and hope you don't explode?
glad aurora
yep, that's why you use S2 bombers so you can keep a QRF of "see -> kill" around and glue the CV itself to a rock with hdg+roll
in terms of detecting them: sundial and situational awareness
supple sonnetBOT
Hmm, we don't have S2 bombers. Just S3, bombs, and cluster bombs...
Ash And Gold ↩️
(This is the levy halfcap Fluffy provided us.)
glad aurora
yeah, I doctrinally disagree with s3 for anti-capfleet purposes due to pavise. that's a me thing
do not mix missile types
supple sonnetBOT
yeah that match was absolutely awful
Yeah, no, unless we're doing weird tech shenanigans our bombers load on one munition type at a time.
-# I...kind of ended up yelling at someone on our team who was only trying to give me advice because I was really stressed
...carrier has been immensely frustrating to learn, honestly. It's a struggle to get ANS games in to play the Levy, and then a struggle to not get SDM'ed to oblivion.
glad aurora
yeah
two-tiered system
except this time it's reflected onto the CV player
either the enemy team has SDMs and knows how to softkill, in which case you do absolutely nothing, or they don't and it's 50k and an easy guaranteed win
supple sonnetBOT
😔
glad aurora
you can, however, significantly mitigate the impact of SDMs with map knowledge, vision, and correct pathing (where the first two set up the third)
supple sonnetBOT
Which requires the enemy team to actually bring SDMs so you get feedback on if what you're doing is working or not. 😔
glad aurora
not really
you just look at your RWR (which is why RWR is going to a 1pt upgrade on ptb)
supple sonnetBOT
...right, fair point.
glad aurora
if you're not spotted, you're not in danger. your goal is to have enemy radar ranges memorized and skirt them by using your vision, and if you are spotted, to change routes or dive for cover
a good carrier never lets an opponent know they're being struck until it's too late to do anything about it
supple sonnetBOT
buries head in hands
And there I go getting ruttled AGAIN.
Fuck you Nebulous, and I'll see you tomorrow.
supple sonnetBOT
I am not sure we have the executive function to hold ourselves to that.
...but we can try.
-# we do though
Moon (she/her) | Wyvern Pearlescent Dragon ↩️
junior heron
I'm realizing that the most HP I could fit on the nose of a sprinter is to use a CR70 on the front.
Behold, the tankiest sprinter
(The Parallax is actually a hilarious block of stats)
300 HP/ DT 40
I have unfortunately joked myself into believing in this setup.
Coming to a pub near you: the creature
oak shell
For extra comedy, don't actually use cmd missiles
glad aurora
Jesus Christ How Horrifying
wet root
Missing the third CR70 smh
glad aurora
For extra comedy, don't actually use cmd missiles
you can't use cmd missiles
there's a parallax in the reactor slot. nothing on this ship can be powered
oak shell
Oh lol
wet root
The drive gives enough power for a TLS-3 I think?
mint sinew
RMag instead of the bow Aux steering is actually more durable and you have three methods of ensuring command
junior heron
there's a parallax in the reactor slot. nothing on this ship can be powered
yeah, radars are OFF
the VLS is there to theoretically softkill some missiles
wet root
RMag instead of the bow Aux steering is actually more durable and you have three...
Well, half the HP, but double the DT
mint sinew
True, but with the reinforced damage splitting you are doing I think that'll hold up
wet root
Probably better against 100/250mm but worse against HEI
junior heron
anyway the real purpose of this was to figure out the theoretical "max HP" of a sprinter so I can hit it with missiles
I mostly just care about the front stuff
wet root
Like my tug up here lol #1164000873031151637 message
(Except I only spent like 60s making a tanky tug to test against)
junior heron
double R-Drive is diabolical, I love it
wet root
Admittedly that was because I was testing Rdrive specifically
But it would make for a very tanky capper if you back onto the point
misty storm
god i wished the torp turret actually like
worked well
its so cool
is a backpack hangar useful at all on a battleship?
i wish some kind of "battlecarrier" was real
(in vanilla)
glad aurora
is a backpack hangar useful at all on a battleship?
yes
jammer, centerline fuel tank, S1 ACMs, sarissa nose
you're only ever going to get to launch them once
great anti-container tool though
misty storm
does that fuel tank make them last the whole match?
wet root
@junior heron gets some quite impressive value from his backpack Tanto
wet root
does that fuel tank make them last the whole match?
It makes it outlast the nosegun ammo at least
misty storm
can you do that on an axford?
oak shell
yes
wet root
#1164000873031151637 message
misty storm
jammer, centerline fuel tank, S1 ACMs, sarissa nose
ACM?
oak shell
anti craft missile
misty storm
oh fair
misty storm
https://discord.com/channels/426286410496999425/1164000873031151637/145497594622...
what fit for the autumn is that?
i do love that its gotten such a reputation as The Autumn though
junior heron
they get some job done fightering
if there's an unescorted bomber wing they can whittle them down
also, having a skiff in the general "nearby" is really nice if you turn radar off for softkill
mint sinew
can you do that on an axford?
A fair few of my Axford fleets bring backpack craft to good value. Usually it's an elint skiff doing the heavy lifting, but a tanto with jammers is a nice softkill tool
plain ice
they are not actual fighters, to be clear
\ makes us think of CAM ships tbh
junior heron
@oak shell 👋
wet root
wet root
junior heron
Lark and I are looking at OSP textures
Liners you can mess with the texture variation in the file, which is how they paint the Luna Wave like that.
but other OSP ships seem to be randomly generated each time. That above Journeyman is the same fleet, I just loaded a different fleet then reloaded it.
oak shell
wild
sharp crow
poor bald liners
wet root
They have fuel tanks now! It's not nearly as bad as when I was editing this liner last time:
junior heron
yeah
noble zodiac
peam
junior heron
noble zodiac
its not bowtanking...
junior heron
I think it's trying
it's got gun groups of 450 and 450 stern so it's just not "point everything at one target
unfortunately it's also on pillars so it met the enemy before it could rotate
meanwhile, it looks like a pair of CLs have shot out their accompanying corvette's bullseye
junior heron
I'm playing the bad beam destroyer fleet, if anyone else wants to come spectate some creatures
and by bad I mean "oh god why are there 3 of these that are each 1000 points"
supple sonnetBOT
Where?
junior heron
well our team has launched
I'll have a very funny screenshot to share in a second
but I'm in the boat night channel early
supple sonnetBOT
(Also that's up there with "a blob of six beamstones that decided to roll directly onto a point as a blob and got eviscerated by Liners" for creature-ness. )
junior heron
junior heron
<@&942093958551588904> It's early, but would anyone be up for some games?
plain ice
\
lime jungleBOT
\
Fleet 'Lunatic Squadron' is composed of 3 ships that cost 3000 points:
Tsukuyomi : 'Ocello' class Command Cruiser [Rail PD EWar]
Eirin : 'Marauder' class Line Ship [Rail PD]
Reisen : 'Flathead' class Monitor [PD Sensor]
```This fleet uses 4 different missile types:
```yaml
SDM-230 Whirlwind : DIRECT - CMD - HE FRAG [8pts]
SGM-105 Halfstaff : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR) - HE FRAG [2pts]
SGM-106 Neostaff : DIRECT - CMD - HE FRAG [4pts]
SGM-195 Lorem Ipsum : DIRECT - NONE - HE SHAPED [1pts]
plain ice
\
lime jungleBOT
\
Fleet 'Detective Squadron' is composed of 2 ships that cost 3000 points:
Satori : 'Ocello' class Command Cruiser [Gun EWar PD Missile Sensor]
Koishi : 'Ocello' class Command Cruiser [Gun EWar PD Sensor]
```This fleet uses 3 different missile types:
```yaml
SGM-106 Neostaff : DIRECT - CMD - HE FRAG [4pts]
SGM-202 EA88 Party Pooper : DIRECT - NONE - NONE [6pts]
SGM-262 Breadstick : DIRECT - CMD/PSV(WAKE) - HE FRAG [7pts]
oak shell
I'll join the next game, need some food
rigid bison
So, I have a question: were there any times in neb balance history where containers effectively had to be softkilled?
wet root
Right now lol
edgy dove
So, I have a question: were there any times in neb balance history where contain...
The past like year and a half at least
wet root
You can't feasibly hardkill a good ToT strike
rigid bison
Ok so how is it softkilled?
edgy dove
Chaff, radar off, make sure your forward thrusters aren’t on gets you through 90% of it
wet root
Standard checklist - emcon, cmd jammer, chaff, full reverse, killjoy/flares/self-illum if you have 'em
rigid bison
What about act/arad?
wet root
Or multiple chaff
edgy dove
Hope it isn’t EACT/[ARAD]
(i.e. turn your radar off way earlier)
wet root
You can flash a blanket at the salvo to beat ARAD val
edgy dove
Killjoys also work as HoJ is a common backup seeker and lures away ARAD if your radar is off
wet root
But with container sigs you'll usually see them early enough to emcon even with valmem
glad aurora
the thing that sucks is that having your radar off while you're fighting people is awful
and the CLN has infinite magdepth to keep throwing validated act at you
so you can't dodge and can't see (except for ally tracks)
better to have kjs/jam escort and a bunch of ADs
supple sonnetBOT
ADs?
mint sinew
100%
supple sonnetBOT
Got it. Killjoys are specifically for decoying HoJ, then?
mint sinew
True ADs appear very large and very loud compared to actual ships while the decoy boxes just look like a normal ship with their radar on, but if there is nothing else going they'll do the job
Decoying HoJ/ARAD and jam flashing ACT[ARAD]
Killjoys will also bait ARAD but jammers emit a lot less power than a search radar so if you've still got a radar turned on that'll probably take priority
supple sonnetBOT
Jam flashing being momentarily jamming out ACT seekers so they lose validator memory..?
mint sinew
Correct, it can also wobble their path enough to mess with salvo density, etc. but that's a minor effect
supple sonnetBOT
Right. Don't remember off the top of our snout: are decoy containers cheaper than Killjoys?
Lord Fluffy (he) ↩️
mint sinew
Decoy LN: 6pts
Decoy clipper: 4
Killjoy container: 3
Killjoy S2: 5? I think
Conure: 8
Killjoy containers also have a few variants you'll see floating around:
- "Helljoy" adds a CMD seeker and a large BF warhead to thin out torp strikes or bomber waves
(9ish points)10 - I'm personally partial to adding an ACT seeker and an HEI warhead to give it the option to be thrown at ships without PD (5)
supple sonnetBOT
Helljoys sound tempting...
mint sinew
Apologies 10 points
lime jungleBOT
Apologies 10 points
CM-4 HELLJOY is a size 4 missile that costs 10 points.
mint sinew
Someone got fancy and wrote instructions in the avionics section lol
mint sinew
I should have stayed and watched your game Tom, I got a double frigblob from the same coordinated gold stack as last time instead...
supple sonnetBOT
Double frigblob??
mint sinew
Yup spyeye and shrike have decided they want to not lose a game before campaign drops with the assumed balance patch
So I'm just going to dodge every game with them from now on
supple sonnetBOT
Yeesh.
Here we were feeling slightly bad for jamming people out so much, and then there's... that.
mint sinew
Jam heavy Ocellos have a lot of counters that should be in people's fleets. Frig/sprinter blobs only decent counter needs a full team pivot. It's a slight different problem
supple sonnetBOT
Yeah...
mint sinew
That boat night game on Styx gave a good example actually. Even though they had nothing to see you through jamming they could play to force you onto a point where they could see and hit you
And until then they could just hide from you
supple sonnetBOT
Speaking of campaign, we're really excited for it.
Been itching to finally get more lore, and to see where they take the story.
And to see what other people cook up with the campaign editor!!
junior heron
I should have stayed and watched your game Tom, I got a double frigblob from the...
it was a fun one, I am yet again bragging about my craft:
there was a CLN, they did a good bit of work
but it was mostly "weird push along yukon C-E side, end up in their endzone with 5 LNs focusing on me and getting my front half sandpapered off"
mint sinew
Alliance's angriest skiff
supple sonnetBOT
...did the devlogs ever talk about how repairs and such work in campaign?
mint sinew
Yes
supple sonnetBOT
Nice!! We've watched a few of them but we need to watch more...
mint sinew
- Between zones repair to threshold per combat DC rules and spend restores as desired
- between or in combat restock fuel and ammo from your oiler
- deeper repairs and other restock can be done from captured bases as plot allows
supple sonnetBOT
Right! Makes sense.
...we're going to have to be conservative with our strikes...
It's definitely going to be an adjustment, since we're so used to multiplayer.
mint sinew
Not just taping down the bshort and flank buttons are going to be my biggest changes
What do you mean beamstones aren't single shot weapons?
supple sonnetBOT
Oh yeah...
junior heron
beams are going to be a funny change of weapon
supple sonnetBOT
We're probably going to have to stop throwing shells on iffy tracks.
junior heron
going from "big damage, single-ish shot" to "unlimited ammo across a campaign"
mint sinew
Your ammo is the beam health I guess
supple sonnetBOT
Also, we're intrigued that you spell the full "bshort" instead of just BSHRT. :P
Lord Fluffy (he) ↩️
Kind of. Beams can still fire when on low HP, just not for long, so it's more like "unlimited ammo, somewhat limited full-power blast."
Lord Fluffy (he) ↩️
mint sinew
Mostly I'm replying from mobile so doing all caps abbreviations is more annoying
supple sonnetBOT
Fair!
junior heron
Nice!! We've watched a few of them but we *need* to watch more...
looks like devlog 39 around 5 minutes
supple sonnetBOT
Also if you only BSHRT a beam down to 90% you can repair it back to 100% and keep doing that forever, but that's a lot of micro.
mint sinew
Very familiar, that trick also gets a lot of use in MP now
But shuttles love to throw just enough 100mm HE so that's inconsistent
supple sonnetBOT
Oh, and random question we just remembered.
What exactly is a greedford? Whenever we see someone go "xyz is a greeford" we usually see 450s with sidearms and literally no PD; is that it or is there more to the archetype than that?
junior heron
yep, 120 sidearms
mint sinew
Traditionally a greedford has the full 4 120mm guns leaving it with (basically) no hardkill
I often run a "half-greedford" where you only bring 2x 120mm so you still have reasonable hardkill
Well, as often as I run ANS capitals
junior heron
I'm trying to run capfleets more with you D:
mint sinew
ANS is more the limit on boat night than cap fleet, you are right
It's when I play pubs where teams are almost entirely devoid of cap gamers
supple sonnetBOT
...why do so many people gravitate to ANS? Is it just because they're the "protagonist" faction?
junior heron
IMO they're just more fun to build
the layout of the capital ships mean you can add interesting extra pieces
backpack craft/backpack missiles
supple sonnetBOT
Sadly we kind of agree with that one. Though EWR and Bloodhound are a hell of a drug.
junior heron
In my personal case: the sounds effects of beams and auroras are really fun
MDs also have a cool sound but it's uncommon to play an MD liner in a 4v4
because you generally need the gun power more than some suppressive fire
it's why I really have been enjoying the journeyman: craft are a similar kind of fun, versatile to build piece of the fleet
supple sonnetBOT
Yeah...
mint sinew
...why *do* so many people gravitate to ANS? Is it just because they're the "pro...
A lot of people prefer the "conventional navy" vibes
supple sonnetBOT
I think the big thing that makes us gravitate to ANS is that they feel... easier to learn?
Hybrids don't need to be used in ToT strikes like containers. Axfords are durable and forgiving, and get a backpack mount for a little utility. ANS gets active decoys, which automatically can deal with ARAD for you if you EMCON. Railstones are cheap, so if they get yubbed or craft-struck it's not as big of a deal as if you lost a mass driver liner. You don't have to deal with finangling Liners into pointing their broadside where you want it.
We like the tech OSP gets to pull off, but considering we're still new-ish (not quite silver) we find ourselves gravitating to ANS simply because we find it's easier to pull off a good ANS game?
Obviously not saying they are easier to learn. And it's not like we dislike OSP- Ocellos are a blast and Liners get to explode people when you play them right. Just- our brain thinks ANS is easier to pull off.
mint sinew
LN control is a lot better than it used to be, but that definitely used to be a big part of it too
And at the moment it's a lot easier to have a singularly powerful pub impact on ANS which brings back over the powergamers
edgy dove
...why *do* so many people gravitate to ANS? Is it just because they're the "pro...
ANS is the faction almost all of my favorite builds are on
frig ball, 3CL, 2CL, beamstone caps, and double levy
glad aurora
OSP LNs are more interesting to build than Axfords or BBs, which is an incredibly low bar to clear, and they both play as 450+sidearm slop
the reason I've returned to being an AN larper is because OSP has two missile fleets and they look exactly the same in every iteration and play exactly the same every single game, zero room for tech in terms of actual new innovation, solved fleets
AN is currently the worse faction if both are being played well with the singular exception of sprinter/frigblob in which case you either hard counter it or automatically lose
edgy dove
3CL if played right and double levy are also ridiculously strong and arguably both top 5 fleet archetypes in the game. I was able to pull 55k off against an experienced team with a single 1.5k levy
glad aurora
honestly I think that's the product of people always bringing too few SDMs, helljoys will not save you
if a levy player exists it is your responsibility and duty on OSP to grief their game and ruin their day
(that said a 1.4k anti-cap levy wins games trivially if it doesn't get ruttled, but that's a sizeable and very map-dependent if)
agreed on 3CL though, but skill floor
warm gulch
OSP LNs are more interesting to build than Axfords or BBs, which is an incredibl...
this is unironically what bugs me about OSP and has for a while
glad aurora
¯_(ツ)_/¯
hunter wanted a new missile body for OSP to diversify them out of CLN, which I'm strongly in support of, but it's unlikely we'll get that for a long time
warm gulch
I'm going off of very old vibes mind so don't know the current state of things, but I always felt that as a general thing, not even just missiles, that OSP has a lot less expression in actual fleet design
wary flame
we spent approximately infinite effort in carrier testing trying to give OSP literally any leverage that wasn't spamming basic munitions and everything we tried ended up getting rolled back all at once or in bits, so I am not particularly hopeful
warm gulch
(it's also why I just dislike the ocello out of principle - narratively a very cool ship, mechanically not at all interesting)
glad aurora
everyone has very little expression in fleet design
you have omnisoftkill or you die minute 5
you have anti-craft or you die minute 5
you have 20mm or you die slightly later when the above two run out
at a high level neb fleet design expression is all in missile design
(or tech picks like aurora count on beam DDs)
supple sonnetBOT
there was some but like a lot of that was locked behind levels of loss tolerance that most folks just dont have
glad aurora
we spent approximately infinite effort in carrier testing trying to give OSP lit...
to be fair without breaking any prospective NDA I may still be under (I'm not actually sure, honestly), one of those was a technical impossibility and the rest ended up getting broken over and over and over and over by the Moorline
supple sonnetBOT
Like our Eye of Sauron. part of it's anti missle defence was that it usiasaly coust more in missles to destroy a hull then the hull coust. and after that deadship PD works better then a rock
tulip vault
I'm going off of very old vibes mind so don't know the current state of things, ...
I do miss some of the worse and weirder liner builds one could run
Plasma💔
warm gulch
plasma 😔
as much as i understand why they got thrown out i liked the single barrel big guns too
glad aurora
plas/250 100mm sidearms are actually quite good, you're just very points-crunched
warm gulch
more or less yeah
supple sonnetBOT
Have you looked at the 600mm gun that moniters get?
Reconus(she/he/they) ↩️
warm gulch
i personally feel plasma could have just been leveraged more as a mechanic/payload really, i think its a neat identity piece
warm gulch
Have you looked at the 600mm gun that moniters get?
and i haven't, no
i dropped off a while ago playing after getting burned out
supple sonnetBOT
Yeah same, though weare thinking we might get back in soon.
oak shell
Yesss. Return of the Duncans
supple sonnetBOT
we do honestaly wonder how well they will fair agaenst craft
warm gulch
i don't even remember when i last played
it was definitely before fighter craft, guarantee
glad aurora
quite well, it's a bitch to hit shuttle swarms with most craft missiles because of all the pavise and the heavy jamming on small, evasive targets
the main problem is "do you just instantly die to 3cl or 2x greedford"
supple sonnetBOT
have CLs gotten buffed seince the carrier update droped?
glad aurora
no, they're just always good vs. light ships and people are building them better
supple sonnetBOT
Honestly we have never had that experience on the light ship side. unless like we were severally out of position.
Beemstones? sure those are a nightmare unless we win the jam-off in the first few secs (with the Ruttle Duncans)
junior heron
quite well, it's a *bitch* to hit shuttle swarms with most craft missiles becaus...
I actually found the Split focus posture to be quite beneficial when my Moorline got rushed by s2h sprinters for exactly this.
Wiped 3k out pretty quickly with a flight of torp sturgeons, then went on to restore my magazine, landing pads, and CIC.
glad aurora
yeah, blanket doesn't have enough power
you need a lot of bellbirds so that they just can't acquire targets and the excellent pavise arc-vs-aimpoint-distribution on a shuttle
supple sonnetBOT
Shoutout to when the enemy doesn't bring a carrier and you get to use your fighters to intercept all the CLN's containers.
supple sonnetBOT
us watching in horror as our carrier we JUST told to ALL STOP proceeds to fire its main drives for a split second and all 4 containers with THERM validators instantly retarget from our chaff to the Levy
supple sonnetBOT
Ah. Had no idea. :P
glad aurora
that said it also wouldn't have mattered because just choosing to ALL STOP doesn't stop therm bleed
you'd have still validated them for 15 or 30 seconds after last main drive fire, I forget which
mint sinew
[WAKE] is 15s, [THERM] depends on how big you are
wooden veldt
Yeahhhh, we're aware.
We think our Levy got turned around while evading a previous salvo so it actually did matter; it was firing reverse drives until we hit all stop, at which point the main drive fired and validated them.
supple sonnetBOT
Yeahhhh, we're aware.
We think our Levy got turned around while evading a previous salvo so it actually did matter; it was firing reverse drives until we hit all stop, at which point the main drive fired and validated them.
We just panicked, forgot which end was the front, and smacked ALL STOP in desperation.
glad aurora
ah
not a bug then - yeah
mint sinew
Yeah, all stop bringing speed to 0 rather than just not firing engines is unfortunate sometimes
supple sonnetBOT
On a much more funny note, our last cap asset (match has been going very bad) Sprinter just survived a fuel line fire and we got the drive back.
Down to the bloody wire...
glad aurora
so it goes
had a horrendous match the other day on OSP where we had no capfleet, which would've been fine since the enemy team was double backline, except their other fleets were 2x CL and 4x distributed beamstone with jamming, and one of the backlines was hemlock - so, beam
the OSP CVs (we were 1.5 backline) brought zero radar skiffs so we just never had any vision and had to take giant circles around the map to slowly find and kill the beamstones
b-but my point and click adventure!!!!!! larpers
mint sinew
The ANS equivalent of the massed mine CLN gaming
supple sonnetBOT
Why wouldn't you bring radar skiffs?!?
They're so useful!
Ash And Gold ↩️
mint sinew
Greed. 50 points buys a fair bit of strike
supple sonnetBOT
But you can't strike without sensors...
That's just hoping your enemy lets you make your perfect engagement and then being surprised when they don't. :P
It's honestaly a big hurdle for most folks to not do that in our experince
mint sinew
I never said it was a good idea, my jmen tend to carry wake skiffs as they are better awareness for the capfleets I bring them on
Sensors are so commonly neglected in my experience. I've won games off the back of a single lockvette before
supple sonnetBOT
Yeahhhhh...
We try to bring EWR on OSP if someone on our team doesn't already have one. On ANS we bring a SEWACs on our Levy fleets, but we don't have room for them on our frontline fleets, and considering so many ANS teams are allergic to running frontline or caps we end up not really getting the chance to bring them because there are bigger team comp issues.
mint sinew
Yup. Making caps responsible for sensors was already sketchy in the pre-carrier world
It is why my ANS frontline preference is for a Solly + scout + something over a pair of greedfords or even my old standby of hero Axford + mixed escorts.
supple sonnetBOT
Mhm!
Out of curiosity, what exactly fills the role of a scout? We've seen cheap Sprinters with a frontline purely there for caps and scouting, but also things like ELINT Sprinters or ships with a Spyglass bouncing around in public lobbies so we're somewhat curious what's effective/worth the point investment.
mint sinew
For ANS I find the gold standard is a lockvette (elint, bullseye, chaff, optional frontline/jammer)
supple sonnetBOT
Optional frontline- ohhhh you're relying on something to get the initial track and then locking it up.
mint sinew
Spyglass Raines can be useful, especially if they are pulling double duty as a pd/ewar escort
mint sinew
Optional frontline- ohhhh you're relying on something to get the initial track a...
You can lock the ELINT LOB
supple sonnetBOT
You can do that???
mint sinew
Yeah, it just points the bullseye down that angle and tries to lock until it does
wet root
An offset Spyglass Raines gives so much vision for only like 230 points
mint sinew
I forgot how cheap they could go, I should bring them occasionally
mint sinew
You can do that???
Important note, this only works if the pinard is on the same ship as the bullseye unless you have a crossfix
wet root
I'm thinking about swapping one of my gunboxes for one in the cap fleet I've been poking
Downside is I'd have to pay for missiles or be down to 8 cappers
(Terrible, I know)
supple sonnetBOT
Yeah, of course, we figured. Without a crossfix you'd have to sweep the Bullseye up and down the bearing because you don't know distance and it wouldn't work at all.
Lord Fluffy (he) ↩️
Eight cappers seems like plenty. :P
Lark ↩️
mint sinew
I'm thinking about swapping one of my gunboxes for one in the cap fleet I've bee...
I think I ended up off them in caps because I kept trying to use them as missile platforms and then the parallax frig ended up outperforming them
wet root
I actually have one pulling double duty as missile and SAM box in my Axford fleet
But that one is invested as heck, with an ARR, Prowler, and Bullseye
mint sinew
Definitely worth it as frontline support
wet root
Hmmm maybe I'll make the other gunboxes even cheaper to try to squeeze in some missiles
junior heron
Important note, this only works if the pinard is on the same ship as the bullsey...
As long as the bullseye is generally lined up with the LOB it should work - I've locked Skiff ELINT LOBs with my battleship's bullseye.
mint sinew
Good intel, I'd hoped it might, but I didn't know for sure
That means you could probably also do that for wake skiffs with an Ocello
wet root
Hmm, interesting little bit of tech - if you have a chaffbox on a Spyvette, you can just shift-Z a chaff at the start of a match, and it will only deploy when you go EMCON
supple sonnetBOT
Huh.
mint sinew
Spyvettes pretty famously have exactly enough power to run the spyglass. Not even the spare to run the vls-1, so the order stays queued until the power is free (emcon)
supple sonnetBOT
Ohhhhhhh!!
That's... really clever!
supple sonnetBOT
so we are going tough our old fleets to see if anything needs any obvious fixes, and um did magazines loses there first one is free thing?
junior heron
no
auxiliary steering got compounding cost a while ago
berthings got removed
small DC got cheaper
that's the big compartment changes I can remember
wet root
so we are going tough our old fleets to see if anything needs any obvious fixes,...
If you click on a compartment that has a mag (or anything else with a compounding cost) it will show the cost as though you have one extra
wet root
(The menu just shows the price of adding one, it doesn't take into consideration that if you put one in that slot it would be removing one as well)
supple sonnetBOT
they gave extra crew iwch did not matter for most thigns and were just free HP chunks
Sierra (she/fae) | Wyvern Silver Dragon (Dawn Subsystem) ↩️
wet root
that's the big compartment changes I can remember
DCX and DC Storage might be new, or at least probably saw some changes
supple sonnetBOT
Oh right!
supple sonnetBOT
Damn, that's a massive reduction!
junior heron
liners got a price increase alongside it, so it wasn't quite as huge
but the purpose was to incentivise more invested OSP ships
supple sonnetBOT
Ope.
Makes sense.
Yeah we have to find a way to shave 110 off the tug duncans and 120 of the eye of sauron
quiet quiver
It was 80 before, but yeah
junior heron
heck
toxic scaffold
lime jungleBOT
Fleet 'Duncan' is composed of 8 ships that cost 3110 points:
Duncan Idaho : 'Draugr' class Clipper [Missile Sensor Gun PD]
Duncan Idaho : 'Draugr' class Clipper [Missile EWar Gun PD]
Duncan Idaho : 'Draugr' class Clipper [Missile EWar Gun PD]
Duncan Idaho : 'Draugr' class Clipper [Missile EWar Gun PD]
Duncan Idaho : 'Draugr' class Clipper [Missile EWar Gun PD]
Duncan Idaho : 'Draugr' class Clipper [Missile Gun PD]
Duncan Idaho : 'Draugr' class Clipper [Missile PD Gun Sensor]
Duncan Idaho : 'Draugr' class Clipper [Missile PD Gun Sensor]
```This fleet uses 2 different missile types:
```yaml
SGM-106 Ember : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR) - HE FRAG [2pts]
SGM-200 Looking for that hull breachussy Block II : CRUISE - ACT(RADAR)/PSV(WAKE) - HE SHAPED [8pts]
supple sonnetBOT
That is an S2 missile name of all time. /lighthearted
things are already preaty tihght on them
You should some of the ships violet named
Sierra (she/fae) | Wyvern Silver Dragon (Dawn Subsystem) ↩️
[Reply to:](#1164000873031151637 message) That is an S2 missile name of all time. /lighthearted
wet root
You might want to check if the missiles cost breakpoints have changed, S2s got a global cost discount a while back
So you might be able to drop these to 7 points without significant loss of capabilities, or increase warheads
supple sonnetBOT
7.69 points, I might be abale to get that down to 7...
OH YEAH-
Random aside: we were in a public lobby a bit ago and witnessed someone on the enemy team slinging missiles named "S2 Direct ACT [ARAD]".
Someone on our team had a Scryer.
They were genuinely direct S2 ACT[ARAD].
Reverse psychological warfare...
mint sinew
Could also be a holdout from before missile seeker combos were shown on the UI
supple sonnetBOT
Switchign form cork to weve did it
wet root
Oh yeah weave is only 1pt now
As a heads up C53s ate a nerf a while back, there's the C56 for liners now
Still fine for tugs AFAIK but it makes 250mm vs 100mm more of a choice on them
Oh, and the Warbler exists now, which might be worth finding a spot for
(CMD jammer for OSP)
supple sonnetBOT
Oh yeah we remember that, it did hit the ducs a bit but not enough for it to matter in most cases. like we only felt it vs axefords. and then like somthing has gone wrong for some one for that match up to happen
And for the warberls the only easy place to fit them in would be insted of some of the Bellbirds
toxic scaffold
these look better?
lime jungleBOT
these look better?
Fleet 'Duncan' is composed of 8 ships that cost 3000 points:
Duncan Idaho : 'Draugr' class Clipper [Missile EWar Gun PD]
Duncan Idaho : 'Draugr' class Clipper [Missile Gun PD]
Duncan Idaho : 'Draugr' class Clipper [Missile EWar Gun PD]
Duncan Idaho : 'Draugr' class Clipper [Missile Gun PD]
Duncan Idaho : 'Draugr' class Clipper [Missile Sensor Gun PD]
Duncan Idaho : 'Draugr' class Clipper [Missile Gun Sensor PD]
Duncan Idaho : 'Draugr' class Clipper [Missile Gun Sensor PD]
Duncan Idaho : 'Draugr' class Clipper [Missile Gun PD]
```This fleet uses 2 different missile types:
```yaml
SGM-106 Ember : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR) - HE FRAG [2pts]
SGM-200 Looking for that hull breachussy Block II : CRUISE - ACT(RADAR)/PSV(WAKE) - HE SHAPED [7pts]
wet root
And for the warberls the only easy place to fit them in would be insted of some ...
No idea if it's worth the slot, but figured I should mention it's now an option
supple sonnetBOT
Yeah there is only one way to find out, and that's to get hit wiht CMD torps on a random point from a sprinter
wet root
If they're running as a swarm you might be able to get away with only one, they're smaller radius but more powerful than Interruptors IIRC
supple sonnetBOT
Oh they are two half swarms still so i want one per formation
wet root
Yeah there is only one way to find out, and that's to get hit wiht CMD torps on ...
Or cmd torps from a bomber
(Or wing thereof)
Though that's something that will be less of a concern at the end of the month, assuming all the PTB changes make it in to the campaign update