nodnod
#Nebulous: Fleet Command
noble zodiac
quiet quiver
And the logi ship is the Mercator-class
sharp crow
I think the timing these days is fairly nebulous (excuse me) but it used to be <t:1776366000:t>
oak shell
I think the timing these days is fairly nebulous (excuse me) but it used to be <...
It's 2 hours later than that
wicked mirage
Me after I eat chili...
restive monolith
I think the timing these days is fairly nebulous (excuse me) but it used to be <...
Maybe next weekend I could join if it was at this time
noble zodiac
Me after I eat chili...
💀
quiet quiver
(And the only readable Mercator nameplate in the trailer is the ANS Great Salt Sea)
wicked mirage
(And the only readable Mercator nameplate in the trailer is the ANS Great Salt S...
Balcon be like...
edgy dove
Me after I eat chili...
wary flame
I suppose I could spool up the old 3k true capfleets because someone has to hold up the banner of the OSP light forces
8 MMTs and a dream
edgy dove
250LN or cringe
noble zodiac
i gotta figure out a jman halfcap build...
(<--- specifically has no idea how the fuck to build a jman)
sharp crow
I wonder if I still have the like 3-4 identical liner fleets but with different dune joke names
what's the aircraft balance like these days, can ships interact with planes outside of SDMs these days?
oak shell
No
noble zodiac
PTB this gets better iirc
edgy dove
what's the aircraft balance like these days, can ships interact with planes outs...
Hell
oak shell
A little bit on test branch, yeah
sharp crow
sounds like not a great time to get back into the game then lol
edgy dove
It’s not the worst thing ever but if the enemy team has a carrier player or CLN that know what they’re doing it can be pretty rough
warm gulch
oh campaign progress
neat
that has definitely put nebulous back on the radar for a bit
(even if yeah this is not the Best Faction campaign)
i need my broadsides or i'll die
wicked mirage
No
Uhm ackshually there's a lot of ways to deal with craft, it tough on main rn sure but there's some tricks you can do. Wanna build a fleet together about it? ^^
wicked mirage
sounds like not a great time to get back into the game then lol
Don't worry, there's ways to deal trust me 😄 wanna build a fleet together about it too? :3
sharp crow
I'd be down some time. but not in time for this weekend's boat night at any rate
restive monolith
Help me study so I can have the free time
wicked mirage
Help me study so I can have the free time
What do you study?
restive monolith
Physics
wicked mirage
Physics
Uh, alright so big stuff like planets pulls other stuff towards it like apples and how fast it can go is based on how big the first thing is versus how much resistance is in the way like air 😄
And don't worry how fast the train is going cuz it's not gonna arrive on time anyway
noble zodiac
Uh, alright so big stuff like planets pulls other stuff towards it like apples a...
thats gravity babeyyyyy
runic torrent
heads up you guys should absolutely break containment from this thread and hawk nebulous in the main channels a ton now that singleplayer is coming
glad aurora
comms jam
turn off radar (incl. FCR)
all stop
chaff, flare, active decoy
path killjoy to loop around ship
this will stop every single missile in the game
restive monolith
Waow
glad aurora
except for SAH, which is (a) really obvious if it's actually SAH and (b) you just point an illuminator backwards at your own chaff
restive monolith
Thats probably a bunch of button presses i will have to learn first lol :3
glad aurora
yeah
the Softkill Fandango is the APM check
if you do it right you're immune to missiles, if you don't you die to missiles. no pressure
supple sonnetBOT
We really gotta learn how to quickly set a Killjoy to loop around. Oftentimes we spot incoming too late to program and have to resort to hitting Z+select incoming to hot-launch a Killjoy on a direct course to skip the programming time so it actually gets out before the incoming missiles land.
junior heron
Direct fire prioritization is usually fine for surviving imnediately, looping the cruise is mostly just plotting back and forth in front of you.
glad aurora
yeah, kj looping is to mess up things like ToT container salvos
which are really obvious way ahead of time and give you plenty of time to respond
if you're getting jumped by a s2cello, uh
pray?
supple sonnetBOT
Oh trust me, when I see incoming missiles I start praying to every deity and game mechanic I know of! 
"SOFTKILL SAVE ME, PLEASE GO FOR CHAFF, STARS I BEG YOU LET THIS VOLLEY MISS, PLEASEEEEE I BEG OF YOU GO FOR CHAFFFFFFFFF-"
"DEFENDERRRRRR SAVEEEEE MEEEEEEEE-"
junior heron
I think the timing these days is fairly nebulous (excuse me) but it used to be <...
It used to be this time, but moved up a few hours when most of the Europe crew stopped playing. I'd be fine pinging early (the old usual time mentioned here) to reaccomadate everyone if there's going to be a renewed interest.
edgy dove
"DEFENDERRRRRR SAVEEEEE MEEEEEEEE-"
Defender will not save you
junior heron
Defender will not save you
My Defender will lock in and shoot down every missile 50m before they hit me.
supple sonnetBOT
It saves me against random S2 strikes with no penetration aids. :P
CheeseSlayer ↩️
Your Defender needs to be studied.
TomZero (Tommy, he/him) ↩️
glad aurora
The spectre of 20mm is the only thing holding back blues from racking 60k in every lobby they enter. May it remain strong for all time
edgy dove
It saves me against random S2 strikes with no penetration aids. :P
Well, yea. I mean against anything actually significant
supple sonnetBOT
Anyways, shoutout to BSHRT Auroras. Rushed an S2H Axford with our dualcello and straight up hardkilled our way through almost their entire combat load. It was ARAD[ACT] and TF Cobalt doesn't have Killjoys so hardkill had to save us and it did! :)
And I say almost, because it expended missiles beforehand. Nothing got through our Aurora grid.
Aurora sweep. :)
(Except S3H. S3H ocellokillers are terrifying.)
glad aurora
yeah, s2h just do not penetrate dualcello PD whatsoever
arad/[act] is also just
fucking wild lmao
what was bro thinking
supple sonnetBOT
I dunno. :P
glad aurora
ftr you can just turn off your radar and that'll miss you completely
supple sonnetBOT
Mhm, if we'd known we would've! But we didn't have a Scryer and it was like 3km away from us (sitting on point??), so we didn't have time to get any intel before they hit and after the first volley got eaten by our PD we shrugged and said "welp, I think we're fine."
see that's what confuses us about why this player runs ARAD[ACT]-
Ash And Gold ↩️
why wouldn't you run ACT[ARAD] that just kinda seems better and needs Killjoys to defeat if you don't shut off your radar way in advance-
glad aurora
correct
dark dawn
Yeah, that works and works decently well but
Either that guy had a Great Idea™ or just forgot to set the correct seeker to validate
glad aurora
they just made an objectively worse pure ARAD missile, which is a real achievement
glad aurora
I genuinely do not think you could intentionally build a worse 1000pt CL if you tried
this is a lifetime achievement
glad aurora
yep.
wet root
There's often a secondary ping on Sundays at around 4pm CST as well
supple sonnetBOT
...
Ash And Gold ↩️
glad aurora
idk man
onboarding needs to be much better and more invested than 'go to the discord and maybe someone'll deign to teach you something'
you can't even explain why this fleet is bad because it commits every single possible error at once
supple sonnetBOT
Dualcello with no ammo elevators on either might make us wince, but that is just... mmmm.
, honestly.
Ash And Gold ↩️
oak shell
I wonder if the solution might be to remove the trap options entirely
"The missile editor was a mistake" is a position I'm coming around on.
glad aurora
that's what they're doing for campaign
supple sonnetBOT
Hmmm... what kinds of missiles would that leave us with? /gen
Perijove, (He)xagon Understander ↩️
glad aurora
zero customization in neb is an insane standpoint unless you're fully aware that your playerbase by and large has no idea what they're doing
and so you just hand them everything so they don't brick wall in the campaign
oak shell
Hmmm... what kinds of missiles would that leave us with? /gen
One per single seeker (wake excluded) and the actually good combo seekers
Roughly
junior heron
Hmmm... what kinds of missiles would that leave us with? /gen
Before the MMU update, there was:
SGM-1
Riposte (CMD, only HE-Frag)
SGM-2
Thunderhead (ACT)
Hurricane (CMD)
Gale (SAH)
Squall (HoJ)
SGT-3
Mace (CMD)
and that was it
Mace was unsoftkillable due to a bug, and Ripostes were cheaper at 2pt
Squalls were pretty much only useful as scouting missiles, because missiles used to have a vision radius like ships do.
supple sonnetBOT
...
On one hand, we like the customization for us, since we, y'know, understand the game.
...but we're witnessing pure ACT cruise missiles and CMD/HoJ missiles in this match we're spectating so on the other hand we kinda get where those people are coming from.
junior heron
We had about 2 games where nobody knew what the interruptor was so Hurricane dumps were overwhelming, then we learned to pay the Softkill Tax.
CMD/HoJ is theoretically using the HoJ to go straight when CMD gets jammed
glad aurora
by and large I'm coming around to "remove the missile editor" too because like
who the fuck even experiments themselves with their missiles instead of stealing them off the discord
supple sonnetBOT
The CMD/HoJ missiles hit. Because the person they were firing at didn't have a comms jammer.
glad aurora
I do! I'm like the only person I can think of who does
supple sonnetBOT
I mean, we kinda do.
Haven't built any dedicated missile boats yet so we stole Killjoys and some anti-craft missiles and the like from Pyrope and the Discord, but we wanted to try when we built a container liner. (And maybe an ocello-killer.)
wooden veldt
...soooo someone's Keystone has no spinal mount.
oak shell
That can happen sometimes. What else is it packing?
supple sonnetBOT
supple sonnetBOT
The VLS-2s are full of... I think S2?
And the 3s are full of S3H.
noble zodiac
yup
sometimes spinalless keystones are used as yub platforms instead of raineses
bc you get more magdepth
oak shell
Do you?
noble zodiac
and i think more channels
junior heron
Well, if you use the nose
oak shell
More channels yes, and this one has an intel center
noble zodiac
yea the IC is the other bit
noble zodiac
thats a yubstone
also see the prog arrays
that fucker is slinging 6 missiles at a time
which is Enough for s2s into cappers and Plenty for hybrids into liners &c iirc
supple sonnetBOT
Yeah, ANS is built pretty okay in this match, honestly. Didn't think about building a yubstone.
noble zodiac
yubvaux is also a thing
ive even seen yubford
altho that mightve been more direct fire idr
the one i havent seen be good yubolomon
noble zodiac
my one (1) yubfleet is a vaux
<--- vauxhall enjoyer
supple sonnetBOT
...although I'm not sure why someone brought 20k rounds of 20mm for two Defenders on ANS when they only have 1 ammo elevator on that ship...
noble zodiac
ammovators do nothing to defenders
junior heron
imagine though...
noble zodiac
ammovators do almost nothing to pd in general with the sole and singular exception of rebounds
junior heron
I thought rebounds were (belt) now too
noble zodiac
imagine though...
buffable PD 💀 💀 💀
junior heron
oh, huh
supple sonnetBOT
Okay wait they have three Defenders. So that's...
Eh, a bit more than two and a half minutes of firing time. Bit overkill but not by much.
noble zodiac
yea i bring like 16k-20k on my vauxes and only 2 of those are ever gonna fire
supple sonnetBOT
(We've heard "two minutes of firing time" tossed around a lot.)
noble zodiac
yea i bring like 16k-20k on my vauxes and only 2 of those are ever gonna fire
because of Hard Earned Experience running out of pd ammo
supple sonnetBOT
But yeah, ANS is pretty chill. Though I'm not sure if they're the ones bringing pure ACT cruise missiles. Only caught a glimpse.
supple sonnetBOT
...wait huh??
noble zodiac
ok so
if youre really slick with your cruise pathing
theres a mechanic where once a missile is 2-3ish (idr exactly. its been changed and changed back and refixed a few times) seconds from its target it Sticks to the target and wont shift off
even if it sees a chaff
so if you can path the missile to have the seeker immediately see the target with no chaff in view when it turns on
and be 2-3 seconds from hitting the target
you just kill them
supple sonnetBOT
Hmmmm! Not sure they were doing that but-
...wait.
noble zodiac
tbf i think it only really works w hybrids bc 2-3 seconds on a regular missile is not far
supple sonnetBOT
Okay, these were not hybrids.
But bigger question.
...does CMD work as a primary seeker on cruise missiles??
noble zodiac
oh then thats just cheapspam
noble zodiac
...does CMD work as a primary seeker on cruise missiles??
not if you manually path it no
supple sonnetBOT
...oh my god.
noble zodiac
if you dogleg with a TRP yeah
mint sinew
...does CMD work as a primary seeker on cruise missiles??
It can, you only get one waypoint though, in the form of a TRP
noble zodiac
oh no
supple sonnetBOT
...that's why they missed.
noble zodiac
oh noooooooo
supple sonnetBOT
...I think.
noble zodiac
supple sonnetBOT
...they did not look like they were tracking at all. I'm checking if any of their intended targets had a comms jammer.
noble zodiac
krill issue...
supple sonnetBOT
...huh. Double Prowler Vauxhall with 6 VLS-2s.
Gotta admit that seems interesting.
wet root
Well, if you use the nose
Even if you don't, compared to a Raines it's 75 points for an extra 20% mag depth, space for chaff, and more internal room
glad aurora
no reason not to put a beam on your yub DD
the sliding scale of magdepth vs. ability to defend yourself is 3x raines vs. 2x beam DD vs. 1x beam axford
wet root
It's not quite as efficient in terms of pure missiles/hull cost as Raines but it's close after you account for basic internals
wet root
no reason not to put a beam on your yub DD
The reason is 100points
supple sonnetBOT
So anyways someone in the lobby suggested pure CMD S2H because "most people don't bring a comms jammer."
...Ash and Gold, we are starting to see what you meant by the whole "two tiers" thing.
wet root
3x non-Beam yubstone is a fine build, gets you better density with less gucci missiles compared to 3x Raines
supple sonnetBOT
also sidenote why are they called yubstones
wet root
Yub is a term that used to mean blindfired cruise but gets used for cruise in general
After a player called Yub Nub, IIRC?
supple sonnetBOT
Got it, got it.
wet root
And Keystones just usually get called [type]stone
supple sonnetBOT
for a second our brain was so in "oh no" mode that we almost thought that meant "no seeker" cruise
wet root
It has been done! It is very much a meme
glad aurora
So anyways someone in the lobby suggested pure CMD S2H because "most people don'...
neb is genuinely a completely different game for different people
ideally they all go larp ans in campaign when that drops but lol
as if
supple sonnetBOT
Speaking of memes: a few days back when we got hit in the flank by ocellokillers and took very little damage someone talked about getting broadside memed or something. So is having ocellokillers go through the side somewhat of a meme?
We forgot to ask after the match and now our memory's fuzzy (as it essentially always is), so sorry if we forgot the exact term.
wet root
Yep, Ocellokillers are HEKP, which deals damage based on how far they travel inside a ship
glad aurora
if you're side on, the HEKP overpenetrates and deals like zero damage
maybe knocks an ammo elevator
supple sonnetBOT
We figured.
They killed, like- two reinforced DC lockers. It was kinda hilarious in hindsight. :P
wet root
Ocellos, being long and skinny, are very vulnerable from the nose, might lose a component stack from above or below, and are mostly fine from the side
glad aurora
this is why they're used on gun warships as backup, because the ocellos have to go bow-in to you to survive your guns
once they do, you launch, gg
wet root
(Unless the Ocellos have good softkill or 3+ Sarissas)
supple sonnetBOT
We weren't perfectly side on, and they came slightly from above, so it hurt a little, but we were fine. Not sure who fired them- or why they pathed to come at us from below. Maybe they thought we were pointing down?
supple sonnetBOT
Oh, yeah, that tracks.
The seekers did, at least.
I'm sorry I had to make the joke.
So sue me.
wet root
Also sometimes even a bad shot is your best option, if your CLs are getting torn up better to use the missiles when they'll deal some damage than lose them without firing
supple sonnetBOT
Mhm, of course.
glad aurora
yeah, I think it was a panic play because they were getting lit up by MDs and rails as well
supple sonnetBOT
Surprised you remembered that, honestly. We remember nothing of that match.
Though of course we have terrible memory issues so it's not like that's unexpected.
supple sonnetBOT
Just had a *wild match.
- 6 railstones on the ANS side
- gun Solomon and orbiting 250mm Solomon
- got handed someone's 2 450 Liners, neither of which had fire control radars (I don't even know if they had search radar either; think they were relying on a Bloodhound tug, and that got blown up)
- we were running dualcello; ended up with 20 fires on one ship at one point thanks to the rail array
- won by a landslide after our teammate blew up their cap assets with 250 Liners
- got a new player their rank up to junior lieutenant!! :D
Also ate a bunch of Vauxhalls for breakfast. Yummy.
noble zodiac
*for a second our brain was so in "oh no" mode that we almost thought that meant...
no seeker cruise torpedoes from MNs are a thing i have heard of working
wet root
Watched the trailer, do we have any idea what weapon the Axford is firing at 00:16?
It doesn't look like a missile, in fact I don't see a projectile travelling at all - I wonder if it's a new type of PDT?
Also, interesting that it looks like the OSP has actually destroyed the gate, I wonder if the ANS managed a breakthrough on the blockade and that's why the campaign will involve reconsolidating a scattered fleet
supple sonnetBOT
Ohhhh, wait, OSP were the ones blockading the Bethel(?) gate?
Lark ↩️
wet root
Seems to be firing from the C5, so between the velocity and it being a primary mount I wonder if it's a new weapon that's effective against light ships and craft
wet root
Ohhhh, wait, OSP were the ones blockading the Bethel(?) gate?
Yep, you can see the blockade in the OSP trailer
supple sonnetBOT
Right! Makes sense, tactically.
We saw the trailer, just weren't sure if it was OSP blocking it or if it was OSP preparing to break a blockade.
wet root
I'm pretty sure they're blockading it, but I don't remember the map well enough to say which end they're blockading
supple sonnetBOT
No worries.
mint sinew
Seems to be firing from the C5, so between the velocity and it being a primary m...
boarding grapples
glad aurora
it's a boarding the dock thing
wet root
Ahh
glad aurora
you can see examples of it in past devlogs
wet root
I'm pretty sure they're blockading it, but I don't remember the map well enough ...
(I think they're in Bethel blockading the incoming gate)
Oh yep and the airlock is right beside the C5
glad aurora
unfortunately c5 mega-sarissa will merely have to remain in the realm of mods
but damn do I want quad-pack c5 integrated radar sarissa
mint sinew
ah yes, just welding a sarrisa raines onto your c5
supple sonnetBOT
...why exactly is the Alliance going to war with the outer systems, generally? We know OSP wanted to secede from the Alliance because they feel like they don't need the Alliance and the Alliance isn't happy because they're between OSP and the rest of the galaxy so that would mean having to essentially deal with defending them on their own dime while the outer systems reap all the benefits of it, but how exactly did that turn from "giant diplomatic furball" to "literal war"?
mint sinew
I'm sure we'll get the final lore with the campaign
supple sonnetBOT
(Or, well, we remember something along those lines. Might've mixed some things up in there.)
Trueeeeeee.
Lord Fluffy (he) ↩️
mint sinew
but the old lore implies that the inciting incident was a diplomatic shuttle getting lit up by a twitchy blockade iirc
supple sonnetBOT
Mmmmmmmm, classic.
wet root
I thought OSP saboteurs blew up a station?
mint sinew
could be
supple sonnetBOT
Could be both.
glad aurora
that seems to be pretty directly portrayed in the animatic
wet root
that seems to be pretty directly portrayed in the animatic
I was thinking the station in the cinematic was a gate, but I think you're right that it's the Harper Fund station, the gate from the OSP trailer looks quite different
glad aurora
ayup, not nearly large enough to be a gate (which you can also see in the animatic)
junior heron
all rails is a funny team comp
you don't know if you're doing anything, but you are making a lot of debuffs appear on the enemy
glad aurora
how
16 rails is funny but they've got to have something doing actual damage to you surely
supple sonnetBOT
They, uh, killed our liner with nothing but rails.
junior heron
16 rails is *funny* but they've got to have something doing actual *damage* to y...
fire ticks
supple sonnetBOT
Don't know how the hell they kept getting good tracks on us, but they started fires on every single component on our lineship and then kept firing until it died.
supple sonnetBOT
They did the same to several other ships.
It was an array of essentially all of them in a massive ball on... I forget which map, but the one with a big vertical canyon in the middle with A smack dab in it.
So they covered A and E with 16 railstones, and by the time we realized "oh wow that is a massive rail ball" our cappers were all dead fighting an Ax on B.
glad aurora
oh, ralas
yeah
supple sonnetBOT
It also didn't help we had a new player on two Ocellos and the rail ball had really good PD.
They... also had secondary guns.
wet root
16 rails is *funny* but they've got to have something doing actual *damage* to y...
I mean there is a certain threshold of rails where you do just fall over, their damage isn't trivial
Battle rails! Not particularly good but I love them anyway
junior heron
i'm imagining an "oops all axfords" but they're triple mk81 with 120 sidearms
mint sinew
after a few recent experiences I've swung back to sometimes sticking a few mk61s and a frontline on my railstones. Being able to deny backcaps is key especially as people trend greedier with their fleets. Can't leave it all to the poor cap player
wet root
Having just one or two mk61s also just does a lot of work for preventing one (1) T20 shuttle from killing your entire rail array
warm gulch
by and large I'm coming around to "remove the missile editor" too because like
very late but i think i unironically dropped off when custom missiles started coming into effect
i both elected that i would never touch them seriously and accepted that i was just going to Die to random seeker effects
customisation is a powerful lever for making a fleet your own but in a multiplayer context i feel being able to make pixel tweaks to things like that just rises the floor on both sides of the equation
you need to not only know what missile to build that isn't just a helpless brick but also what missiles can and will exist and you need to defend for
grrr. shaking the bars wanting to play this game again but legitimately not having the time to learn everything again and put together fleets that don't make me want to die from embarassment
late cedar
Yeah, customizable missiles make them INCREDIBLY powerful when players go Missile Boat strats.
Feels like they have a swiss army knife but its a bank full of different type of missiles.
We got dumb fire, we got WAKE, we got Heat Seekers, we got Smart Missiles, we got Anti-Missile, we got decoy signal missiles.
Sometimes, a dumb fire SPEED missile is a good replacement for a kinetic weapon.
edgy dove
The issue from my perspective is pre-mmu missiles would be too easy to softkill in today's environment. If you're good enough you can defeat the vast majority of missiles thrown your way given you have the equipment. But if it was just stuff like pure ACT, ARAD, CMD, SAH, that sort of thing even with hybrids players would become skilled enough to render missiles nearly useless imo
warm gulch
i mean if anything that just means you get the benefit of that hindsight
i doubt throwing missile editor out would mean they'd have to rollback to the original missile roster; they could make a new selection based on current knowledge and then just cost accordingly
my thought really is i would probably keep customisable missiles but more as a dev tool than a actual fleet customisation thing, because i think super accessible dev tools are really important in games
let campaigns have weird custom missiles, fuck it
maybe even have a checkbox for allowing custom missiles, period, in games
then cultivate a new missile selection accordingly
maybe be spicy about it and do unique missiles for each side if you really need to (or don't its probably for the best, we have that already)
glad aurora
people barely experiment with missiles anyway, they just take shit off the discord
and I'll be the first to admit that as cool as my ocello killers are, they're probably not somehow better than Pazuzu's
get all of us no-lifers to submit whatever missiles are actually relevant and canonize those
warm gulch
people barely experiment with missiles anyway, they just take shit off the disco...
i will always think about that one story about the one missile which everyone hallucinated into being the best missile
and it just didn't find targets
wet root
I'm actually pretty skeptical about the functionality of TTGIs, I need to spend some time testing if they actually work because I suspect they're another such case
oak shell
TTGI?
mint sinew
Time To Go Impact
Basically seekers stop checking for new options once they have a valid target 2-3s before estimated impact
supple sonnetBOT
For the longest time, we thought the ship in the Neb steam background was an Axford.
...It's a Solomon, isn't it?
junior heron
it used to be a really weird solomon
wet root
There was also the Hooded Horse Sale Ocello, which was similarly strangely-built
Looks like the current background Solomon is fairly reasonable but the Nebulous Tile Solomon is I think still strange
Or maybe just historical, I think that's Mk82s on top?
edgy dove
I'm actually pretty skeptical about the functionality of TTGIs, I need to spend ...
I can assure you it works
Really rough sketch
It's like R2 boxes in that the only way to defeat it is to have the chaff be the thing that activates the seeker not your ship
wet root
I'm aware of the theory, I'm just not going to fully trust it until I've tested that it actually functions as advertised
olive blade
I have been burnt so many times by people telling me something works
then it not working
late cedar
Then you realize that the people that says that it works has outdated knowledge or forgot that they have something else that help make it work.
edgy dove
I mean TTGI is pretty simple
I’ve used it and been in the receiving end quite a few times
If you’re in nebmain ask Shrike about it
supple sonnetBOT
Decided to poke around in the craft menu and fiddle around with a carrier.
...heavens above there are so many options...
edgy dove
It’s ok there are only like 4 worth choosing
supple sonnetBOT
...wow, that many trap options?
glad aurora
yeah
supple sonnetBOT
Yeesh.
glad aurora
depending on your strain of thought "the existence of fighters" is a trap option
as a result of this I would not experiment with carriers right now until PTB hits, because that's just going to completely change how carriers are built (if not, realistically, how they play)
supple sonnetBOT
Yeah, we were kinda just fiddling around to kill time a little. Don't need to touch carriers just yet.
edgy dove
I wouldn’t necessarily say trap options but like most of neb there’s a surprising amount of ways to accidentally make it worse
supple sonnetBOT
...though we do want to try out cruise missiles in actual matches sometime. But we're not sure how to go about building a cruise missile boat and aren't sure where to find missile designs to steal so we've been putting it off repeatedly. :P
supple sonnetBOT
Oh shit, for real?
glad aurora
though I'm given to understand they're basically retired now, Hunter invented like 90% of the missiles anybody bothers with in this game
and that's their starter fleet
supple sonnetBOT
Oh my god there's fifty billion missiles on this thing!
edgy dove
The thing with missiles in neb is you can ask 5 experienced missileers their opinion and receive 5 different answers all worth listening to
supple sonnetBOT
...huh, zero validators on anything.
glad aurora
Oh my god there's fifty billion missiles on this thing!
every missile fleet will have a lot of missiles
they're not all for different targets
you mix salvos together to make them harder to completely defeat
realistically a missile fleet will have like
2-3 standard salvos
and 6+ missiles
supple sonnetBOT
Yoooo it's got a beammmmm!!!
...hmm, yeah, I like this!
A little confused about why they're all primary and backup seekers with zero validators, since we almost always see stuff with validators on it, but they seem solid enough, and the Axford seems built well.
glad aurora
there's some wider theory about validator vs. backup seeker but I can't speak for Hunter's intentions in creating them
edgy dove
TTGI is your answer
supple sonnetBOT
Right!
glad aurora
(and, for that one S3H, how few people bring the dazzler and how much it sucks)
supple sonnetBOT
We'll save a copy of this to our fleet folder so we can rename the missiles to things that are easier for us to remember (labelling by seeker/payload, mostly) and rebrand the Axford. Might take it for a spin later!
glad aurora
fwiw I probably would EO/WAKE the pure EO missile but that's me
edgy dove
ACT/[EO] better imo
supple sonnetBOT
(Part of us really wants to make it ACT[EO], so I think we'll try that.)
glad aurora
ACT/[EO] is good if your opponents don't do any number of now-weird choices
(f'ex: backpack jammer craft)
not sure how it interacts with KJCs these days
supple sonnetBOT
(Also: do y'all recommend Fixed, Steerable, or Steerable Extended radar seekers?)
glad aurora
entirely dependent on application
supple sonnetBOT
Right. :P
glad aurora
since that missile's a pure EO seeker, it's probably tuned for the EO seeker's acquisition range
your intended seeker and salvo composition dominates your engine tuning
(this starts getting really screwy with some ocello-killer variants, and is part of why I personally think making your own variant from scratch that really, actually works is one of the hardest things to do as a missile builder)
supple sonnetBOT
Yeah we have never made a missile in our entire time playing neb
Right, yeah. Might go with extended (5km acquisition range versus EO's 3km) and increase range on the sprint stage just a smidge.
(Since it switches to sprint at 3.75km with Extended ACT vs 3km with pure EO.)
glad aurora
nah, sprinting from too long away is a net negative
you don't really use all of Extended's seeker range on any missiles I can think of
supple sonnetBOT
Oh huh. Maybe fixed active, then. It sprints at 2km.
glad aurora
your crucial breakpoints are 2km (20mm) and 3km (aurora)
glad aurora
yeah, you need to pay for extended if you want to get an act missile sprinting before it hits aurora range and explodes
supple sonnetBOT
Tradeoffs, tradeoffs, decisions decisions...
glad aurora
welcome to missile design
oh, s2h going 723 m/s can't be hit by flak
important number to remember
supple sonnetBOT
Always funny when players in a game casually run into real world problems and come to the same solutions as irl
Whew, that's fast...
All the S2H that ships with Hemlok only hits around 550m/s.
Ash And Gold ↩️
glad aurora
yeah, it's a cruise missile. you don't really have the engine space
flakskip s2h tend to be Direct
supple sonnetBOT
Vrooom.
Oop, yeah, Direct casually going 1km/s. :P
Fastest missile in the... Not-West. >_<
Oh hey, EO is 5 points cheaper as a validator, so pure EO is just as expensive as extended ACT[EO]. Convenient!
noble zodiac
oh, s2h going 723 m/s can't be hit by flak
wait whys this again
wet root
You can build a flakskip S2H with any speed as long as you tune the stage range properly, no?
wet root
Oh hey, EO is 5 points cheaper as a validator, so pure EO is just as expensive a...
Yep, ACT[EO] and pure EO (or EO/WAKE) have noticeable tradeoffs but are very much sidegrades, so their costs are the same
glad aurora
I've grown to quite like ACT/[EO] ACCEPT + EO/ARAD salvos
wet root
The only thing I don't like about those is how effective jamming is against them if they jam from a good distance
mint sinew
wait whys this again
It spends the whole sprint accelerating such that the flak burst is behind it
wet root
But jamming isn't particularly popular with scout craft making it so easy to circumvent IME
glad aurora
indeed, you basically softkill it by having an EO jammer and a bellbird escort
very impractical (albeit one guy did it to me once and it was a huge pain)
wet root
Just a bellbird on the main target does it
glad aurora
only gets half
wet root
Early stages the EO/ARAD and wobbles the ACT[EO]
glad aurora
Does it? I haven't experienced early staging on EO/ARAD
wet root
It should, unless you're using Pulsed
mint sinew
Or cruise with tight final waypoints
wet root
Yeah if you cruise it to within stage range that works too
glad aurora
also a non-issue for carriers, where I've been using it most lately
wet root
Oh, yeah, only relevant for hybrids
mint sinew
I do tend to assume hybrids for EO primary
glad aurora
oh, for carriers it's completely unnecessary unless you're designing for, say
craft no longer being able to use CMD with decoys
noble zodiac
It spends the whole sprint accelerating such that the flak burst is behind it
oh yeah that
wet root
You can build a flakskip S2H with any speed as long as you tune the stage range ...
Ah, right, you can dodge the first burst of flak with range tuning but you need enough continual acceleration to dodge the second burst
supple sonnetBOT
First game trying out a yubford.
- strike point D early, see five thousand 20mm slugs lighting up the sky; still get 4 hits (very nice)
- get rushed by four ruttles before we even got two salvoes off, they dump their entire rocket load into our Axford's flank
- live with basically no destroyed modules?!?
- get beam back
- dodge five billion containers (they didn't seem to be tracking for some reason; postgame said ARAD[ACT]/THERM)
- beam several ruttles
- whiff an S3H salvo into a rock because our cruiser was moving and we were a doofus and forgot to account for that
- try to S3H a CLN, player surrenders before we can
glad aurora
🎉
wet root
Very nice!
And yeah ruttles have difficulty against Axfords and Solomons, they can hurt you in sufficient volume but because one rocket doesn't have enough armor pen to break an Axford's 40cm of armor they need to have multiple rockets impact in the same location to deal damage, so you need quite a few hits to significantly damage a capital
mint sinew
And if the capital happens to be rolling as you strike, it can spread out a lot of that armour damage
glad aurora
(or the trick really good players do, which is posfiring the rocket)
supple sonnetBOT
They killed two VLS-2s and a Large DC, so we chain-restored the LDC and got both VLS modules back.
wet root
And if the capital happens to be rolling as you strike, it can spread out a lot ...
Or if your ruttles are spread out instead of grouped up, or firing from too far away
glad aurora
if a ruttle stops in your blind spot on hold fire you're about to get rolled
wet root
Good luck!
supple sonnetBOT
i hope Flame doesn't rush us with ruttles again
glad aurora
all she plays is ruttles, fwiw
she's very good at it, but it's her fleet
exactly 10 of them, some reserved, pairs sent above and below the map to hunt backline targets
supple sonnetBOT
...okay so this time it wasn't the ruttles that got us.
...it was the ten bombers that hunted us down and put like forty torpedoes up our butt. >_<
Scrammed the reactors but we bloomed before they could shut 'em down. 
very rude of them
||
||
glad aurora
yeah, your hard limit to hit the button on SCRAM is thirty-three seconds
the procedure takes 30s and you have to hold the button for 3s
so, realistically, if you open the DC board any later than 0:34 remaining on the timer that's it
supple sonnetBOT
Yeah...
supple sonnetBOT
Landing cruise missile strikes is harder than it sounds, honestly. Need to get more practi-
what.
you can do that???
glad aurora
big aurora 👍
wet root
There used to be a trick you could use to skip the 3-second period of holding the button, but IDK if it still works, I recommend making a hard decision by 35s
supple sonnetBOT
Big Aurora indeed...
Ash And Gold ↩️
Would've thought it would be too slow to track and engage to use on bombers, but... wow.
This is so From The Depths core.
glad aurora
not with a mount gyro
supple sonnetBOT
(We once built a battlecruiser with a giant laser cannon for the express purpose of swatting annoying little craft out of the sky because they loved to pull 20gs constantly and wobble around like a chicken with its head cut off and a rocket booster strapped on.)
junior heron
There used to be a trick you could use to skip the 3-second period of holding th...
It does:
If you quickly double-tap spacebar while holding the SCRAM, it skips the 3 second hold.
glad aurora
in fact it'll be even easier to use Big Aurora post-PTB
Those maneuver nerfs are going to hit the bomber population like Chicxulub
junior heron
big aurora has always meant I never truly felt like craft were uninteractable-with
wet root
Unfortunately Big Aurora has a bit of a limitation on hulls
(And factions)
Which is why the Ocello should have access to the beam turret
junior heron
Which is why the Ocello should have access to the beam turret
and then we'd have a second pilot netter who only plays ocellos
(that's not fully true I also enjoy carrier)
supple sonnetBOT
Who's the first?
wet root
Me lol
wet root
Admittedly I used to play plenty of other OSP fleets and I probably will again after PTB drops, but I find anything other than Ocellos thoroughly miserable in the current meta
And Ocellos have always been my favorite fleet in general
supple sonnetBOT
Craft?
Lark ↩️
wet root
Yep
(I'm also just generally not a huge fan of LNs, I find them annoyingly clunky, but pre-craft there were a few I ran fairly regularly)
supple sonnetBOT
Liners are... yeah they're kinda like that.
We honestly gravitate towards Ocellos as well. When we don't know what to play, we shrug and bring out TF Cobalt.
wet root
It's just a very nice ship
supple sonnetBOT
It is.
And you get Auroras, which are so nice.
wet root
I'm a Sarissa addict myself but that's one of the things I like about Ocellos, there's a surprising amount of personalization you can make to them
Huh, I've played almost as many games alongside the Autumn as I have using the Ill-Starred Dive
A count of how many times each ship has shown up in my skirmish reports:
supple sonnetBOT
HAHA!!
wet root
Congrats!
glad aurora
Congrats.
olive blade
A count of how many times each ship has shown up in my skirmish reports:
lmao the duncs
glad aurora
Dunc (Dunc)
mint sinew
Tomorrow I shall leave silver forever and make the boat night stack even spookier
wet root
Ooooh exciting
wet root
lmao the duncs
@toxic scaffold I feel like you might appreciate knowing your legacy lives on
Maybe after another 2,000 hours of Neb the Duncs shall be dethroned
lime jungleBOT
Fleet 'Dragon's Wrath' is composed of 1 ship which costs 3000 points:
Scaled Fury : 'Axford' class Heavy Cruiser [Beam Missile PD Sensor]
```This fleet uses 5 different missile types:
```yaml
SGM-H-2 Furiosa : CRUISE - ARAD(RADAR)/ACT(RADAR) - HE SHAPED [12pts]
SGM-H-2 Naseruta : CRUISE - ACT(RADAR)/PSV(WAKE) - HE SHAPED [11pts]
SGM-H-2 Spearpoint : CRUISE - ACT(RADAR) - HEKP [19pts]
SGM-H-3 Ether : CRUISE - ARAD(RADAR)/ACT(RADAR) - HE SHAPED [20pts]
SGM-H-3 Miasma : CRUISE - ACT(RADAR)/[PSV(EO)] - HE SHAPED [23pts]
supple sonnetBOT
@plain ice
lime jungleBOT
<@430456957883777024>
Fleet 'Dragon's Wrath' is composed of 1 ship which costs 3000 points:
Scaled Fury : 'Axford' class Heavy Cruiser [Beam Missile PD Sensor]
```This fleet uses 5 different missile types:
```yaml
SGM-H-2 Furiosa : CRUISE - ARAD(RADAR)/ACT(RADAR) - HE SHAPED [12pts]
SGM-H-2 Naseruta : CRUISE - ACT(RADAR)/PSV(WAKE) - HE SHAPED [11pts]
SGM-H-2 Spearpoint : CRUISE - ACT(RADAR) - HEKP [19pts]
SGM-H-3 Ether : CRUISE - ARAD(RADAR)/ACT(RADAR) - HE SHAPED [20pts]
SGM-H-3 Miasma : CRUISE - ACT(RADAR)/[PSV(EO)] - HE SHAPED [23pts]
glad aurora
take the second DCC out and put in a small workshop
glad aurora
you also really are going to want a parallax over the frontline basically the second someone starts jamming you
supple sonnetBOT
(for reference they're sending us missile templates to use in this fleet)
lime jungleBOT
Fleet '3k Kinetic Surprise' is composed of 3 ships that cost 3000 points:
Oblivion Arrow : 'Vauxhall' class Light Cruiser [Gun Missile PD EWar]
Photon Mirage : 'Vauxhall' class Light Cruiser [Gun Missile PD EWar]
Lost Between : 'Sprinter' class Corvette [Sensor EWar]
```This fleet uses only one missile type:
```yaml
SGM-H-311 Eclipse K-SA : DIRECT - CMD/SAH(RADAR) - HEKP [49pts]
lime jungleBOT
(for reference they're sending us missile templates to use in this fleet)
Fleet '3k Kinetic Surprise' is composed of 3 ships that cost 3000 points:
Oblivion Arrow : 'Vauxhall' class Light Cruiser [Gun Missile PD EWar]
Photon Mirage : 'Vauxhall' class Light Cruiser [Gun Missile PD EWar]
Lost Between : 'Sprinter' class Corvette [Sensor EWar]
```This fleet uses only one missile type:
```yaml
SGM-H-311 Eclipse K-SA : DIRECT - CMD/SAH(RADAR) - HEKP [49pts]
supple sonnetBOT
Right! We hadn't looked at the internals much, since this is literally just TF Hemlock but renamed. :P
glad aurora
ayup, hemlock's internals can do with some minor modification
supple sonnetBOT
(Also Cryptid we should really stop proxying when we send fleet files, it makes LT Hazel undergo mitosis.)
glad aurora
the missiles are the important part of it
supple sonnetBOT
yeah...
Stella (she/her) | Wyvern Catgirl (Lunar Subsystem) ↩️
glad aurora
Fleet '3k Kinetic Surprise' is composed of 3 ships that cost 3000 points:
```yam...
no comms jammer, no active decoys, can't dodge at 8km because no raider
all need to be fixed
supple sonnetBOT
we blame whoever gave us this fleet
mint sinew
A frontline is fine on a missile/beamford imo. The beam is very much the sidearm and you can always chuck an arad missile at them to make them drop the jammer in a pinch
no chaff is the bigger issue to me
glad aurora
also needs flares, arming missiles, damage control central - wait it doesn't even have a bullseye on the para vaux?
lmao who gave you this
mint sinew
paravaux offloading the bullseye is fine. I tend to run para and spy/bullseye rather than tying my locks to the same hull
but I don't tend to run vaux groups often these days
supple sonnetBOT
can't remember lol
got it during one of the neb server events which was about learning CL/corvettes
glad aurora
yeah, it's very specifically that you combine para brn with bullseye lock on one ship to pierce jamming
mint sinew
eh, in the same formation is fine to me
otherwise you end up with a spy vaux that simply can't generate a firable track in open space
and worst case you just light up the BRN ping with 250mm RPF until it stops working
(only fails against Lark's CCs, but they aren't real and can't hurt me again)
plain ice
\ okay this is a different fleet
lime jungleBOT
\ okay this is a different fleet
Fleet 'TF Lake' is composed of 4 ships that cost 3000 points:
Superior : 'Vauxhall' class Light Cruiser [Gun Missile PD]
Michigan : 'Vauxhall' class Light Cruiser [Gun EWar Missile PD Sensor]
Huron : 'Sprinter' class Corvette [PD EWar]
Erie : 'Sprinter' class Corvette [PD EWar]
```This fleet uses 6 different missile types:
```yaml
SGM-195 Lorem Ipsum : DIRECT - NONE - HE SHAPED [1pts]
SGM-H-345 CVAR Woldo : DIRECT - CMD/ARAD(RADAR) - HE SHAPED [17pts]
SGM-H-350 Banhmi : DIRECT - CMD - HE FRAG [15pts]
SGM-H-362 DK Lance A-J : DIRECT - CMD/ARAD(RADAR) - HEKP [47pts]
SGM-H-362 DK Lance B-E : DIRECT - CMD/ARAD(RADAR) - HEKP [52pts]
SGM-H-362 DK Lance C-E : DIRECT - CMD/ARAD(RADAR) - HEKP [50pts]
glad aurora
much better fleet
personally I'd drop the extra sprinter to add more modules to the vauxen and the other sprinter, but that's me
supple sonnetBOT
yeah we'll probably do some editing after the match
we don't run missiles very often
mint sinew
personally I'd drop the extra sprinter to add more modules to the vauxen and the...
or even just trim it down to being a pretty bare bones capper/gun sprinter
glad aurora
(aux steering and ACA for damage tank and performance on the sprinter, DCC on the vauxen and a WAKE backup on the bomber bane S3H, and fully reinforce the nose on the vauxen as well)
glad aurora
comes out to, what, 112? yeah, that leaves enough room to turn sprinter #2 into a normal capper instead of cutting it altogether
mint sinew
Having a spare sprinter to check corners/cap points does a lot for survival
I've killed so many Vauxen that had to jump on a point
glad aurora
(or just for winning the game, given the public allergy to caps)
supple sonnetBOT
very helpful ty
wet root
(only fails against Lark's CCs, but they aren't real and can't hurt me again)
Para/bullseye being on different ships also doesn't matter there because you're not locking until you get within 7k without a Floodlight and Vauxen are not surviving that charge
I should use Lockvettes more often, they're annoyingly sneaky
mint sinew
They are really good, especially the invested ones with a blanket
wet root
Maybe at some point I should try swapping the missile/lock/Spyglass/Sarissa Raines for an offset Lockvette and two more Railstones on my Axford fleet
wet root
Hold shift I believe, let me double check
mint sinew
Can only waypoint cruise missiles with a non-command seeker
supple sonnetBOT
Fuck yeah then we can’t with ours
wet root
For CMD cruise, right click, signal, TRP to put down a TRP, then right click the target, select missile, hold control, click the TRP, then release control and click the target
mint sinew
I use TRPs so infrequently I always forget the method until I need it
wet root
Same, but it does actually say how to do so in the tooltip thankfully
Note that you need to have a cruise guidance to use TRPs, can't do it with Direct
wet root
It's unfortunately a map that shows the limitations in the current camera
supple sonnetBOT
Update on Caltrop gaming:
wet root
Solid work!
supple sonnetBOT
BEAMMMMMMMMMMMMM
BEAMMMM THEMMMMM ALLLLLLLL
the 8k additonal damage on the Superior was a salvo of anti-ocello S3s we fired into someone's face
3 missiles
8k damage
not half bad
supple sonnetBOT
Two Liners were rushing our backline, and had a very rude awakening when we blapped them with S3H and THE BEAMMMMMM.
We spammed missiles at stuff all game basically uncontested. Rushed an Ocello pair near the end after crippling them with missiles and beamed them to death as the match was ending.
Missiles and beams are such a dopamine hit when they work.
You point a beam at something and watch it burnnnnnn.
Plot an HEKP strike at some Ocellos with weak PD and see the explosions go. We re-ran the tutorial a while back, went "oh my gosh we have Ocellokillers??", hit them dead-on, and watched them collapse.
God we're hooked. They're so hit or miss but when they hit they hit.
glad aurora
(fwiw the missiles in the tutorial are not proper ocello killers, they're just hekp s3h)
(you can pierce their PD because the axford in the tutorial is ridiculously overinvested and the ocellos are separated)
glad aurora
specific salvo tuned to pierce eight auroras in arc
anything can get through four auroras if you try hard enough, two ocellos is what makes them special
supple sonnetBOT
whistles
Eight Auroras, since four per Ocello. Damn, that's impressive.
quiet quiver
I once saw a fleet which was dualcello that had 6 450 guns (normal), 1 bullseye (normal), and then literally every other mount was aurora (not normal)
plain ice
(aux steering and ACA for damage tank and performance on the sprinter, DCC on th...
\ ACA?
quiet quiver
That fleet got hella value because a direct missile Vaux dumped everything trying to break it
supple sonnetBOT
sorry we're just trying to interpret what you said into the game
wet root
I once saw a fleet which was dualcello that had 6 450 guns (normal), 1 bullseye ...
Lmao I suppose with that many Auroras there's no need for spending mounts on chaff/killjoy/Interruptor
quiet quiver
It would suffer into torpfrig but otherwise yeah
supple sonnetBOT
Hardkill may not save me, but it might've saved them.
quiet quiver
It also did not have good internals for firing guns or doing damage control
wet root
Not surprising considering the power requirements
quiet quiver
Power and point budget
supple sonnetBOT
Mmm, ty
Lark ↩️
(p)Awesome Catgirl Actions!! 
Lark ↩️
she appeared suddenly in vc by sending a youtube video and meowing
It was a very good kitty!! I was summoned immediately!!
wet root
Power *and* point budget
I already have to be ridiculously greedy in terms of DC on my Ocellos to fit the jammers and Sarissas, I'm shuddering to imagine what parts of the foundation were sawed off there
supple sonnetBOT
I cannot resist!!
At that point they were probably tearing out chunks of the armor and removing every redundancy. :P
Lark ↩️
wet root
Chunks of armor in this case probably being losing the reinforced nose, since everyone tries that once
Then all their guns fall off because that nose is load-bearing
restive monolith
Mayb3 today ill play
I got all da time
I had other weekend plans but I cancelled on them
So I got plany of time :D
wet root
It's eep times for me but there should be people around for boat night in... 14 hours, about?
wet root
Hecks
restive monolith
I can do like 5 hours from now till uh 12 hours from now
wet root
I could be around in 12 hours and I suspect @junior heron would not be opposed to an early boat night start
But earlier than that is difficult for me :(
restive monolith
Well I mean in 12 hours I stop
wet root
Yeah, was worried that was the case :/
restive monolith
I can probably start playing 5 hours from now and then stop 12 hours from now
Europe :(
wet root
Yeah, timing that is always tricky
Definitely ping at some point in (tomorrow morning for me), I won't be around but you might get some takers from the morning crew
restive monolith
I can just ping the role sometime later like uh 9 to 10 hours from now n see who responds I think that'd be about the most reasonable timewise for me having time to play and others being awake to play
Yea
wet root
Yep that's 9 to 10 am for me and 3 hours later for the East Coast folks so definitely feasible for anyone who exists before noon
supple sonnetBOT
We will be up in six hours if we don't sleep through all our alarms!
palolike/laura/madeline/lulu ↩️
...which may happen!
restive monolith
Yeah I woke up at 6:30 today lol ive been rotting on a couch that isnt even mine for uh 3 hours nearly
supple sonnetBOT
...changing sleep schedules is a bitch!
...but if we're up, we would totally be down to hop on with you!
restive monolith
Yeah that'd be cool
plain ice
\ alright made some changes but unsure what to spend the last 6 points on
lime jungleBOT
\ alright made some changes but unsure what to spend the last 6 points on
Fleet 'TF Lake' is composed of 4 ships that cost 2994 points:
Superior : 'Vauxhall' class Light Cruiser [Gun Missile PD]
Michigan : 'Vauxhall' class Light Cruiser [Gun EWar Missile PD Sensor]
Huron : 'Sprinter' class Corvette [PD EWar]
Erie : 'Sprinter' class Corvette [PD Gun]
```This fleet uses 6 different missile types:
```yaml
SGM-195 Lorem Ipsum : DIRECT - NONE - HE SHAPED [1pts]
SGM-H-345 CVAR Woldo : DIRECT - CMD/ARAD(RADAR) - HE SHAPED [17pts]
SGM-H-350 Banhmi : DIRECT - CMD/[PSV(WAKE)] - HE FRAG [16pts]
SGM-H-362 DK Lance A-J : DIRECT - CMD/ARAD(RADAR) - HEKP [47pts]
SGM-H-362 DK Lance B-E : DIRECT - CMD/ARAD(RADAR) - HEKP [52pts]
SGM-H-362 DK Lance C-E : DIRECT - CMD/ARAD(RADAR) - HEKP [50pts]
wet root
How's the power budget on the Michigan, can you fit a Spyglass in?
supple sonnetBOT
no, with spyglass it jumps to 112%
wet root
Upgrading to a Small DC on the Huron could also help with Unfortunate HoJ Incidents and just lets you flank/BSHORT more liberally in general
wet root
no, with spyglass it jumps to 112%
112% isn't necessarily terrible, what's the power list look like?
supple sonnetBOT
that also puts us at 3009 points but we can probably just dump a couple points here and there
also the Erie has exactly 0 PD bar some chaff
wet root
Mmmm, probably a bit too much over 100% there
supple sonnetBOT
and 120mm rpf
mint sinew
Yeah, you lose things even without PD/jame
wet root
Oh, I would personally recommend bumping the Interruptor to the Huron and getting your 10th gun back
supple sonnetBOT
hmm, fair enough
wet root
Hangups are pretty situational and losing a gun really hurts when you've only got 10
Other options for spare points are Rapid DCs/Aux Steerings in Compartment 1, for a bit more flankery/durability
supple sonnetBOT
hmm that actually saved us points (E70 to Huron + small DC locker)
2989
wet root
Could also get a second Mk61 on the Erie (and bump the chaffbox to a cheek)
supple sonnetBOT
hmm, fair
the huron is technically at 103% power but it's not like we'll be firing everything at once
mint sinew
I'd expect to fire all 3 jammers at once TBH
so you'd need to be turning off the radar
does dropping the second ACA get you back under power?
supple sonnetBOT
it does yeah
wet root
You've got a bit excessive flak on the Michigan btw
mint sinew
I'd just do that
supple sonnetBOT
also jokes on you it doesn't have a radar!
mint sinew
I can read good
wet root
If you drop half you'll get 10 points back and still have 2 mins of firing time
Personally I would go for more RPF and less AP, and swap a Reinforced DC + Basic CIC for Small DC + RCIC, but that's very much in the realm of preference
supple sonnetBOT
we'll do...750? That gives us about 1:43 of firing
wet root
That's probably more than you'll ever need
supple sonnetBOT
shaves 10ish points off
wet root
Especially since from most angles you'll only ever be firing one
Which is IMO a good place to be, you want to be a bit excessive on PD ammo
You can cut it down further after you play a few games if you find you're not running out, which is likely going to be the case
One other thing you can consider is getting a Floodlight on one of the shoulder mounts, it's not required and might take some power finagling but it's nice against jamming and gives you options to self-illum
plain ice
\ once again we have points to spare
lime jungleBOT
\ once again we have points to spare
Fleet 'TF Lake' is composed of 4 ships that cost 2986 points:
Superior : 'Vauxhall' class Light Cruiser [Gun Missile PD]
Michigan : 'Vauxhall' class Light Cruiser [Gun Missile PD Sensor]
Huron : 'Sprinter' class Corvette [PD EWar]
Erie : 'Sprinter' class Corvette [Gun PD]
```This fleet uses 6 different missile types:
```yaml
SGM-195 Lorem Ipsum : DIRECT - NONE - HE SHAPED [1pts]
SGM-H-345 CVAR Woldo : DIRECT - CMD/ARAD(RADAR) - HE SHAPED [17pts]
SGM-H-350 Banhmi : DIRECT - CMD/[PSV(WAKE)] - HE FRAG [16pts]
SGM-H-362 DK Lance A-J : DIRECT - CMD/ARAD(RADAR) - HEKP [47pts]
SGM-H-362 DK Lance B-E : DIRECT - CMD/ARAD(RADAR) - HEKP [52pts]
SGM-H-362 DK Lance C-E : DIRECT - CMD/ARAD(RADAR) - HEKP [50pts]
supple sonnetBOT
how we do not know
wet root
Hangups and flak ammo are pricey
supple sonnetBOT
mmm, true
wet root
Immediate options for spending points are more chaff, upgrading Rapid DC on the Erie to a Small, upgrading secondary CICs to RCICs
mint sinew
Other option is a few AMMs onto the Erie
supple sonnetBOT
true but we'd have to make those
glad aurora
AMMs kind of don't do anything anymore I'm ngl
wet root
Could even consider the emergency knife HEI S1s on the Huron for the inevitable late game situation where it's contesting a cap with a shuttle
mint sinew
Lets it survive an MMT S2 strike when jumping on a point, but I do hear you
supple sonnetBOT
we may just bump the rapid DC to a small and grab some chaff since doing so leaves us at 2996
mint sinew
Sounds like a good plan
wet root
Oh, you should probably balance your ammo between the two Vauxes btw
supple sonnetBOT
...what would those look like :P
Lark ↩️
wet root
Offensive S1, direct, ACT seeker, engine tuning can really be whatever
Maxed out warhead because they're S1s, they need all the oomph they can get
If you're fancy they're CMD seeker instead but that doubles the cost
plain ice
\ yeah this'll do tbh
lime jungleBOT
\ yeah this'll do tbh
Fleet 'TF Lake' is composed of 4 ships that cost 3000 points:
Superior : 'Vauxhall' class Light Cruiser [Gun Missile PD]
Michigan : 'Vauxhall' class Light Cruiser [Gun Missile PD Sensor]
Huron : 'Sprinter' class Corvette [PD EWar]
Erie : 'Sprinter' class Corvette [Gun PD]
```This fleet uses 7 different missile types:
```yaml
SGM-155 Glasgow Smile : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR) - HE SHAPED [3pts]
SGM-195 Lorem Ipsum : DIRECT - NONE - HE SHAPED [1pts]
SGM-H-345 CVAR Woldo : DIRECT - CMD/ARAD(RADAR) - HE SHAPED [17pts]
SGM-H-350 Banhmi : DIRECT - CMD/[PSV(WAKE)] - HE FRAG [16pts]
SGM-H-362 DK Lance A-J : DIRECT - CMD/ARAD(RADAR) - HEKP [47pts]
SGM-H-362 DK Lance B-E : DIRECT - CMD/ARAD(RADAR) - HEKP [52pts]
SGM-H-362 DK Lance C-E : DIRECT - CMD/ARAD(RADAR) - HEKP [50pts]
plain ice
\ the missile btw looks like this
lime jungleBOT
\ the missile btw looks like this
SGM-155 Glasgow Smile is a size 1 missile that costs 3 points.
supple sonnetBOT
pretty much what you talked about, simple little direct guidance ACT knife fight missile
mint sinew
Don't worry about the weave, knife fighting ranges will do that for you
supple sonnetBOT
see this is how you can tell we don't muck around in the missile editor much. We don't know what half this stuff means
wet root
Oh, FWIW I meant putting the missile on the Huron
wet root
The Erie doesn't need one, it's got guns, but you will run into situations where the Huron and a Shuttle are sitting on a point and neither can actually injure the other
(Also as Fluffy mentioned don't bother with Weave, it's not worth the 50% cost increase here)
mint sinew
That missile has weave terminals set which help it dodge kinetic PD, but it does that by wobbling around. You've only got 3.5km range on this missile so it's probably not going to settle into straight flight before impact anyway
wet root
Yeah, Weave is 1pt which is honestly a steal on most missiles but painful when the base missile is 2pts lol
supple sonnetBOT
means we can fit 4 instead of 3 on the Huron AND have 1pt left over to throw at chaff or some more ammo
wet root
Otherwise seems like a very solid pair of Vauxen to me
supple sonnetBOT
or another missile if we shaved another point off somewhere else
success!
Lark ↩️
well ty all for the help we very much appreciate it
plain ice
\ oh and for anyone wondering these are the S3Hs the vauxen carry
lime jungleBOT
\ oh and for anyone wondering these are the S3Hs the vauxen carry
SGM-H-362 DK Lance C-E is a size 3 missile that costs 50 points.
lime jungleBOT
\ oh and for anyone wondering these are the S3Hs the vauxen carry
SGM-H-345 CVAR Woldo is a size 3 missile that costs 17 points.
lime jungleBOT
\ oh and for anyone wondering these are the S3Hs the vauxen carry
SGM-H-350 Banhmi is a size 3 missile that costs 16 points.
lime jungleBOT
\ oh and for anyone wondering these are the S3Hs the vauxen carry
SGM-H-362 DK Lance A-J is a size 3 missile that costs 47 points.
lime jungleBOT
\ oh and for anyone wondering these are the S3Hs the vauxen carry
SGM-H-362 DK Lance B-E is a size 3 missile that costs 52 points.
supple sonnetBOT
basic gist is the A-J, B-E, and C-E get fired in a salvo. Woldo is for finishing off weakened targets or engaging lighter ones if need be. Banhmi is anti bomber work
...oh good lord it's nearly 2
right we should go to bed. Thank you all for the help!
wet root
Eep well!
supple sonnetBOT
I am full of eepy. BUT AWAKE!
Stella (she/her) | Wyvern Catgirl (Lunar Subsystem) ↩️
Heard our alarm going off and locked in.
supple sonnetBOT
@restive monolith Still wanna get some Neb in today? :)
supple sonnetBOT
Y'know I'm starting to see the vision on the pure ACT HEKP missiles TF Hemlock brings.
If you're firing at something big that's got mostly disabled PD and is out of decoys, they penetrate light PD pretty effectively, and deal pretty good damage on impact!
Ended up getting incredibly lucky and hitting a mostly disabled Ocello bow to stern last match; whole thing went up and the oil slicked out moments later.
oak shell
Does anyone have a good EWR-killing missile?
glad aurora
Just left the house, but: ARAD/EO S3H, SSJ if you're rich and think they'll have AMMs, 16km range, 4km stage range Weave + some wiggle room for the terminal or the tug/MN backing up
(the extra range on cruise stage is for sarissa wiggle)
if they turn off their radar and the ewr when they see it coming in and have a manually tasked EO jammer then you're kind of out of luck, but when wouldn't you be
the other option is SACT/[ARAD] for cheaper, bigger warhead, but less softkill resistance
oak shell
Why ARAD/EO?
edgy dove
ARAD for homing in on the EWR and EO in case it turns it off
glad aurora
(and 4km stage range plus extra because it doesn't read distance, so you need to match it to the seeker acquisition range plus some)
edgy dove
I've been scammed
edgy dove
@wooden veldt fuck I need a coffee break after that
toxic scaffold
<@194368350854447105> I feel like you might appreciate knowing your legacy lives...
We should try to get back into neb again Tbh
supple sonnetBOT
Jeez, we really fell off those last few games.
So many Auroras and so many dead S3H...
edgy dove
Tell me about it I only got 25k off double greedford
supple sonnetBOT
We got 30k but we were kinda damage-farming near the end. And that includes beam-rushing an Ocello to take E.
glad aurora
with cruise missiles you kind of just don't shoot anything within the PD bubble of ocellos, honestly
not worth the trouble
supple sonnetBOT
...we were starting to realize as much.
...Auroras in general seem to wreck the missiles that shipped with TF Hemlock. Even when we get them to start the sprint stage just outside Aurora range they get lasered to death immediately.
supple sonnetBOT
...sans ocello-killers, assumedly, but- that's a special case.
glad aurora
you have to specifically build to defeat auroras if you want to bother, yeah
supple sonnetBOT
So, essentially, the "game plan" is to use them on things that don't have Auroras, right?
noble zodiac
you have to specifically build to defeat auroras if you want to bother, yeah
i mean isnt that just like
decoys + BSSJ?
glad aurora
(extremely cheap fixed act cruise missiles, usually warheadless, just designed to trigger PD to fire at them)
glad aurora
decoys + BSSJ?
no
well, kind of only if you're firing in a dense salvo 6
but otherwise it's significantly more complicated or requires stuff like external jamming
supple sonnetBOT
Hemlock has those, somewhat. Whole bunch of pure ACT HEKP S2H. Kind of dual-purpose; half scouting, half for finishing off crippled things.
Ash And Gold ↩️
glad aurora
nah
hekp s2h is too expensive to be used to scout, especially since those are direct
supple sonnetBOT
...not cheap enough? :P
glad aurora
yep
supple sonnetBOT
They're cruise.
Ash And Gold ↩️
Every missile that ships with Hemlock is cruise.
glad aurora
Oh, huh. Could've sworn one of those was direct hekp, but shows how often I've looked at hemlock lately.
either way, yeah, scouting missiles are designed to be absolutely dirt cheap, they exist to die
supple sonnetBOT
nod
Might see about dropping a few of the S2H HEKP for scouting missiles. We really don't need 24 of them.
Could probably put the points into more normal S2H.
glad aurora
ehhh
you kind of do need 24 of them unless you can rely on your team to actually finish off targets you hit (lol)
but you can drop 2 and take some scouting S2s
supple sonnetBOT
wistful sigh
If only...
Ash And Gold ↩️
edgy dove
Oh, huh. Could've sworn one of those was direct hekp, but shows how often I've l...
Might've been sickamore
(sick because whoever made it must be sick to think it's passable)
glad aurora
let's just say I'm glad the starter fleet philosophy of "let's make these intentionally bad" is going away
edgy dove
tbh it isn't even that cik is just bad
glad aurora
I wouldn't say bad
more "I haven't seen them play. ever"
if you haven't played the game in six months your starter fleet should be updated by somebody else who has
junior heron
they're a tester right? might just be focused on that
supple sonnetBOT
Sooo... question. Anyone have any advice on where to start with doing missile stuff on OSP side? We've been having great fun learning how to sling missiles at people with (slightly modified) TF Hemlock, but we'd like to get a feel for how OSP missile stuff goes as well. Know your enemy and know yourself, Sun Tzu, you get the picture.
We're just a little lost on where to start. Container liner? S2cello? Torpcello? Weird funky swing arm/rolling launcher Marauder??
Our gut says S2cello would be easy enough to learn, but we're not sure how to go about building one. Container liner seems simpler to build, at least the ship itself, but we have no idea how to build good containers and we definitely don't know how to do ToT strikes.
How would you all recommend we start dipping our toes into OSP missile stuff?
glad aurora
s2cello
supple sonnetBOT
glad aurora
parallax, floodlight, 2x radar jammer of your choice, three SRAs, bullseye, 7-8km max warhead max speed (within those bounds) S2
some CMD/decoy, some CMD/HOJ
reinforce your nose, get to salvo size 6-8
done
supple sonnetBOT
Copy that. Direct or cruise?
supple sonnetBOT
Got it. CMD/decoy being CMD guidance and (normal, not cluster?) decoy?
glad aurora
yep
supple sonnetBOT
Makes sense. So you ambush people, yeet a bunch of S2 at them (with a few decoys mixed in), run off and hide. Very nice.
...does HoJ home in on command jammers, or is it just meant to make them fly straight?
junior heron
only radar jammers
supple sonnetBOT
Right, we figured. Otherwise CMD/HoJ would be completely un-softkillable.
supple sonnetBOT
-# funnily enough this is motivating us to finally learn how to missile
Oh hey, we can stick Auroras on it.
No hybrid-ing us!
...except Ocello killers.
-# and also learn how to use craft but that’ll probably happen after the changes roll in
...hmm, are TF Cobalt's internals a good baseline for "general Ocello internals layout"?
glad aurora
more or less
glad aurora
Oh hey, we can stick Auroras on it.
No hybrid-ing us!
...except Ocello killers.
you have VLS-2s so you can take all the size 2 utility
bring ~4 killjoys
supple sonnetBOT
Copy that! We should have a non-container Killjoy lying around somewhere...
AMMs too or just Killjoys?
glad aurora
AMMs are cope on anything that can innately defend against small-salvo S2H
SDMs, yes, until PTB comes out
supple sonnetBOT
...sorry, not familiar: SDM?
supple sonnetBOT
Right!
supple sonnetBOT
Mhm! Actually I think Pyrope added some anti-craft missiles to the Axford she helped us build a while back, we'll rip them off of there.
...we definitely can dual-drive this. Double Raider or Raider Whiplash?
glad aurora
big raider small whip or big raider sundrive
you aren't orbit dodging with this like an actual ocello, the raider acceleration is to pop up from cover quicker
glad aurora
It's Just That Easy
in all seriousness if you're ever under fire in a S2cello, you are either currently killing someone or about to get crippled and explode
it's rather all or nothing
I also recommend 32 missiles per frontline ship, less for vauxhalls
24 vauxhall, 32 axford, 36-40 BB
supple sonnetBOT
For a second we were like "only 32? What will we do with the other- ohhhh 32 to kill."
Do you recommend 3 VLS-2s, or two and a backup weapon like a 450 gun?
glad aurora
six S2s will kill a sprinter, 16 a beam DD (you'll lose a lot to auroras these days)
I run 2+Mk66, most others run 3, it's all down to your decoy ratio and your opinion of salvo grouping
also your opinion of your teammates
you have zero room to buff the 450 so it only exists to DT break whatever your missiles leave behind
supple sonnetBOT
...we may bring a 450.
...we do not trust pub teammates.
supple sonnetBOT
Granted we only really lock in when we're playing with a stack, pubs are kinda just practice for us, but still, we do not trust them.
Right; how many decoys do you recommend per salvo?
glad aurora
I run a 50/50 mix but that's because I'm a freak who likes attacking 6k blobs of PD
you can go considerably lower
junior heron
<@&942093958551588904> Boat Night time!
I didn't see any conclusion about moving the time back to the original earlier time (2 hours earlier) so I've kept to this current time, but if there's a renewed interest in the earlier time let me know!
supple sonnetBOT
-# we’d be interested but are heading out for some errands so we may join late
supple sonnetBOT
First match of S2 Ocello.
Helllll yeah.
edgy dove
The point and click adventure build
junior heron
?
junior heron
or "noooo I'm being jammed"
wet root
But consider: They look really nifty
(This one was actually used for communicating with the Soviet space program, not anything military [beyond the inherently militaristic aspects of the space race] AFAIK)
glad aurora
restive monolith
I ended up watching movies yesterday oopsie teehee :3
junior heron
<@&942093958551588904> anyone up for some neb?
glad aurora
possibly if we can get a couple more
supple sonnetBOT
-# I can probably hop on
shut ridge
I could be convinced
supple sonnetBOT
We're unfortunately occupied with other matters; but we wish you good luck!! :)
plain ice
\ random fleet we have lying around. Any immediately noticeable flaws we should correct?
lime jungleBOT
\ random fleet we have lying around. Any immediately noticeable flaws we should ...
Fleet 'TF Mirror' is composed of 2 ships that cost 3000 points:
Reflection : 'Axford' class Heavy Cruiser [Beam Missile PD EWar Sensor]
Blurry : 'Sprinter' class Corvette [EWar PD]
```This fleet uses 7 different missile types:
```yaml
SDM-225 Tornado : DIRECT - CMD - HE FRAG [8pts]
SGM-195 Lorem Ipsum : DIRECT - NONE - HE SHAPED [1pts]
SGM-252 Slingshot A-J : DIRECT - CMD - HE SHAPED [10pts]
SGM-252 Slingshot B-EH : DIRECT - CMD/HOJ(RADAR) - HE SHAPED [7pts]
SGM-252 Slingshot B-ES : DIRECT - CMD/SAH(RADAR) - HE SHAPED [7pts]
SGM-252 Slingshot B-EW : DIRECT - CMD/PSV(WAKE) - HE SHAPED [7pts]
SGM-252 Slingshot C-D : DIRECT - CMD - HE SHAPED [15pts]
supple sonnetBOT
oh! question
how do you make a good carrier? (actual carrier or converted lineship)
mint sinew
That's a very broad question
supple sonnetBOT
fair..
mint sinew
Like building missile fleets there are a few core principles and a few "meta archetypes" you could build towards
For principles:
- don't be afraid to skimp on internals. Most of your fighting shouldn't risk the carrier directly
- remember that any points you are spending on a carrier aren't being spent on other things, so you need to make sure you can impact the frontline (or outright win caps cheaply)
- learn when to spend resources most efficiently (e.g. when is a risky strike worth it because it matters)
plain ice
\well as an example we have this workshop fleet
lime jungleBOT
\well as an example we have this workshop fleet
Fleet 'TF Companions' is composed of 2 ships that cost 3000 points:
Marisa : 'Levy' class Escort Carrier [PD Gun]
Reimu : 'Raines' class Frigate [PD Missile]
```This fleet uses 8 different missile types:
```yaml
SDM-225 Tornado : DIRECT - CMD - HE FRAG [8pts]
SDM-256 Cyclone XC : DIRECT - CMD - HE FRAG [8pts]
SGM-101 Flashbang : DIRECT - ARAD(RADAR) - NONE [2pts]
SGM-104 Verutum : DIRECT - CMD - HE FRAG [4pts]
SGM-195 Lorem Ipsum : DIRECT - NONE - HE SHAPED [1pts]
SGM-202 EA88 Party Pooper : DIRECT - PSV(WAKE) - NONE [6pts]
SGT-366 AC-A Cosh : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR)/[CMD] - HE SHAPED [11pts]
SGT-366 CR-B Cosh : DIRECT - CMD/ARAD(RADAR) - HE SHAPED [12pts]
mint sinew
As for current known archetypes:
- ANS anti capital torps (double levy, decoy projector bombers, minimal tantos)
- ANS S2 bombers aka "Kitty Petters" (single levy, decoys, again basically no tantos)
- ANS "spamto" (all SAH S1 tantos, double levy)
- OSP R2 Cuda spam (what it says on the tin, fill a CVLN with cudas, R2s and some ACMs)
- BOTH half cap (cheap levy or jman and then several cap corvettes)
OSP anti capital heavy bombers are a bit out of favour at the moment but can still work with a bit of effort
supple sonnetBOT
yeah what even is the changes that are supposed to be happening?
First question: what's up with those pure CMD missiles? Are they full of decoys/a jammer?
2: You may want 1 or 2 active decoys. Though 2 is probably fine.
3: This seems kinda like an S2 Ocello but built on an Axford. With that in mind, if you have room for a radar jammer, that could greatly improve your Axford's survivability.
4. You may want more than 1 radio amplifier to punch through CMD jamming.
Cryptid: Beaste of Whimsy ↩️
mint sinew
yeah what even is the changes that are supposed to be happening?
We'll see what makes it to live, but currently the ptb has a number of changes to let ships interact with craft more easily. E.g. craft are a lot less nimble so suffer more under long range pd fire
supple sonnetBOT
the tornados are just tornados but yes the other 2 have support equipment. One has a decoy the other jammer
Sierra (she/her) | Wyvern Silver Dragon (Dawn Subsystem) ↩️
Lord Fluffy (he) ↩️
we'll do some fleet reworking later when we're not busy with studying
mint sinew
Added a missing archetype above: spamto
supple sonnetBOT
Forgot about this for days, but: genuinely curious about this.
Ash And Gold ↩️
(ack dangit PK double pings when reply ping is on gahhhh this is why we don't reply ping-)
mint sinew
It's a mix of philosophy and balance
Fighters exist to kill enemy craft. If they don't bring a carrier why bother. If they did bring a carrier, just bomb it
In balance terms fighters aren't currently good enough at killing bombers that a good void patrol can zone out a dedicated enemy carrier completely, so a lot of people don't view it as worth it
late cedar
Ngl, I still have no clue how to use carriers effectively even after the tutorial.
I got my big guns, my radars, my jammers, and my missile boats.
But never carriers.
mint sinew
I'm personally in the camp of bringing just enough fighters to escort my first wave of bombers if the enemy has fighters/SDM spam but even then I often end up with games when my fighters just end up as sad light strike/pd that could easily have been points spent on a few more bombers
So you end up with bomber to fighter ratios that look nothing like real carrier operations (unless you are running fighter spam builds)
supple sonnetBOT
funny how the game depicts actual discussions around carrier tactics in that regard
mint sinew
Emergent properties going to emerge
supple sonnetBOT
mhm
glad aurora
more broadly, in stuff that fluffy didn't touch on: it doesn't matter how good fighters are at killing bombers if they don't see the bombers (i.e., you outplay the enemy CV), and escorted bombers still die to exploiting craft AI
fighters provide functionally zero benefit
(imo)
mint sinew
If you do want to build your own carrier rather than steal an existing build I suggest starting with a half cap. Pick a faction, build a carrier with a little scouting, some stand off strikes to reliably kill small ships and then fill in with the usual cap assets
glad aurora
also, the current flavor of moorline is r2cuda, which has 96 fighters
you are never, ever, ever going to win a fighter fight against r2cuda
wet root
The fact that craft don't reliably intercept incoming missiles is really the nail in their coffin, you can't leave them on escort for a bomber wing or an allied ship and expect them to do anything without babysitting
glad aurora
thus ANS fighters are even more larp
mint sinew
If you do want to build your own carrier rather than steal an existing build I s...
It means more micro, but if you botch your carrier play you are still running a capfleet which is good for the team
supple sonnetBOT
Lord Fluffy (he) ↩️
mint sinew
The fact that craft don't reliably intercept incoming missiles is really the nai...
Yeah, I love the concept of escort fighters, but when their most reliable use is as offset jammers they are hard to justify
wet root
There's few things more demoralizing than watching a wing of craft just decide to entirely ignore an inbound salvo
wet root
<@&942093958551588904> anyone up for some neb?
I am around now btw, but it looks like the Neb has mostly dissolved
warm gulch
There's few things more demoralizing than watching a wing of craft just decide t...
"demoralizing" is definitely how i'd describe nebulous as a whole, probably
wet root
I don't find it an issue in general, but craft in particular have a lot of cases where the controls/AI simply doesn't work properly
warm gulch
i feel thats kind of a big issue in of itself though: "fight the enemy, not the UI" and all that
wet root
Yep
Unfortunately there's a very vocal contingent in the Nebcord that would prefer to play Osu, so it's unlikely to change
warm gulch
lame
i'm really just betting on the campaign at this point, i think
outside of that i've been excited for and burnt by a lot of decisions thus far in regards to this game
wet root
I'm definitely looking forward to the first act of the campaign
Campaign editor as well has a lot of nifty potential
supple sonnetBOT
we’ll say this. The amount of times we’ve had to pixel hunt for an enemy ship that is sitting in the middle of a cloud of chaff, decoys, and missiles is unreasonably high
Reconus(she/he/they) ↩️
Because we have to find the “enemy” track and not the “random bullshit” track
warm gulch
i feel like thats fine to a degree (especially since information warfare is an element of this game) but when you give something a command it should honestly perform the command; if something has a role, it should probably perform fine in that role
which is more what i mean
i dunno. maybe i'm just getting more and more jaded the more and more i hear about the state of nebulous
glad aurora
things would probably be better if lys was allowed to work on the relevant parts of the game, but no
the singleplayer campaign review bombers don't quite allow for that
warm gulch
it definitely feels like a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" no matter how you slice it on any topic, yeah
edgy dove
PTB is a drastic improvement but games on it almost never happen
glad aurora
bombers are more or less nonfunctional vs. skilled players on PTB, which is an improvement since they already kind of were but now you're not under any illusions otherwise
supple sonnetBOT
Huh. They kind of give us a hard time.
What's the secret to dealing with them?
mint sinew
In PTB specifically it's mainly the increased vulnerability which means you have more and better defensive tools
On live it's more about bringing enough well tuned SDM2s or even larger specialist anti-bomber missiles
supple sonnetBOT
Hmmm.
...so what you're saying is: even more mount pressure? :P
mint sinew
Pretty much
Hence the planned changes to diversify options
At least for ANS it's not too bad as most frontline fleets want a VLS 2 anyway
glad aurora
AN gets a bit farmed for free without a VLS-3 unless they have a jam escort or get lucky with a killjoy but that's only if the sturgeons launch, so there you go
(now that SDM-2s no longer can fire out of VLS)
glad aurora
Huh. They kind of give us a hard time.
What's the secret to dealing with them?
softkill
if you can softkill properly bombers cannot hurt you until you run out of softkill tools
at which point you die immediately but unlike yub carriers can't just keep volleying you forever to drain softkill
also SDMs, ~30 SDMs at ~150-210pts makes you immune to carriers
(only for OSP post-PTB)
glad aurora
In PTB specifically it's mainly the increased vulnerability which means you have...
also the cmd+decoy negation
supple sonnetBOT
...we need to get better at softkill, honestly.
Ash And Gold ↩️
We try, and can usually pull off the sequence relatively well, but sometimes stuff still gets through. Not sure what we're doing wrong most of the time.
glad aurora
sometimes you're not
it just Happens
kj didn't pull hard enough, couple seconds too late for validator memory, got unlucky with the jammed-out wobble
chaff geometry
but "a couple leakers" is not "a 3k fleet" of value
supple sonnetBOT
staggers into the channel, slumping against a wall
...shoutout to a team bringing a container liner, 80 shuttle decoys, naming their actual container missiles "Decoy Container: Clipper", and twenty-six ruttles.
Worst match of my life.
Oh, also, add in two plasma liners, liner decoys, and fake Liner decoys.
So. Many. Decoys.
glad aurora
yeeeeeep
supple sonnetBOT
We actually did almost 30k damage that match with TF Hemlock, which is... more than we could say for the rest of our team.
...it was rough for all of us.
edgy dove
*staggers into the channel, slumping against a wall*
...shoutout to a team bring...
Oh I think I know who did that
edgy dove
Oh nevermind then, there's a few I know that've done that before
supple sonnetBOT
:ryuhug:
Sierra (she/her) | Wyvern Silver Dragon (Dawn Subsystem) ↩️
supple sonnetBOT
Andddddd we can die a happy Wyvern.
supple sonnetBOT
Yep! Good call on the risky push up the rock. We ambushed that missile blob, jammed out all their missiles, and brought the pain.
mint sinew
winning the S2 spam trade was so helpful, otherwise that would have been very painful to pick apart
taking 2 high micro fights on opposite sides did make me blunder my LN into what I thought were just gun ships, but it worked out for the best
Didn't stop to count the barrels and realise it was only a mk66 with no mk68 on the ax
supple sonnetBOT
Yeahhhh!!
Ours got right through; theirs hit rock PD. :P
Lord Fluffy (he) ↩️
Unsure how that happened, honestly; they were a mix of SAH, HoJ, and ACT. Our radar jammers were obviously jamming out the ACT, but the HoJ should've gone right for us.
And yet we witnessed most of their spam hit the rocks as we dove.
...compared to Hemlock and the complicated dance that is backline cruise missile spam, it's almost disgusting how easy S2cello is. Setup a volley as decoy, jammer, rest full payload, fire one or more based on ship size, watch them punch right through PD and obliterate hostile. Repeat.
(Disgusting in a /pos way. We feel so evil when we ambush people and blast them with missiles.)
mint sinew
Yeah, it's a bit like that sometimes
supple sonnetBOT
nicely done Darlings!
...but I do admit, it is immensely satisfying plotting a good cruise salvo and absolutely dunking on someone's poor Marauder or tug or whatever else with hybrids. I feel like we're still playing it badly, but we're slowly figuring out what to sling at what targets and how to plot salvoes well.
yawn
Thanks sweethearts. :)
47864 | experimental cryptid ↩️
For now, I'm gonna go to bed so I can play more Neb in the morning. :P
The road to silver is paved with getting curbstomped and beaten up until we get good.
-# good idea!
mint sinew
Late blue is the best time to figure out cruise imo. You know the game well enough to make it work, but stragers don't have expectations on your performance
supple sonnetBOT
GAHHHHH-
Perfectly softkilled a container volley as a Solomon; it was CMD/ARAD so we shut off our radar, comms jammed, reversed course, and they all missed. Three whole container volleys softkilled, zero hits taken.
Then a second set of three caught us off guard, we didn't CMD jam in time, it hit us and knocked out the CIC, and then the other two container salvoes caused a magazine cookoff and finished the job.
God that was simultaneously so awesome at first and then so disheartening when we missed one click and died.
supple sonnetBOT
nod
Honestly I'm more upset at the fact we died ten minutes into a match and have to wait ages to get another ANS game in than the fact containers deal so much damage. :P
Their damage is getting... halved in PTB, right?
wet root
Yep
glad aurora
see one message above yours
junior heron
1/2 damage
edgy dove
Sounds like CLN, 1 fuck up and you're gone
noble zodiac
ohhh right
supple sonnetBOT
Accidentally ambushed a Solomon with a beam backpack with an S2cello. Thought we were hunting backline.
...oooooooopps.
...we did hit it!
But we were already hurt from a few stray missiles earlier and we didn't knock out the beam before it knocked out us. :P
late cedar
"You thought it was a fragile backline. But it was me, the morbidly obese backline. Solomon!"
supple sonnetBOT
...I fucking hate beamstones.
junior heron
Yeah, getting them to the ambush position only to overshoot the aimpoint is really annoying.
They can be pretty brutal when they're hidden effectively.
supple sonnetBOT
Tom you are a very nice person but I am going to blow you up with 500 ocellokillers. /lighthearted
It's just- last several matches on OSP have been "getting to position, doing fine- beam DD appears from left field, knocks out drives or CIC and leaves us dead in the water, we're dead before we get control back.
glad aurora
yeah this is because pubs have no idea what vision or screening is
travel exclusively with other frontline to meatshield your fragile s2cello
supple sonnetBOT
This match we spent a good chunk of it hunting said beams. We turned around to try to support our team- and then four of them pop out from behind rocks in sequence and beam us to near-death.
junior heron
Tumbleweed?
glad aurora
make them chase you
supple sonnetBOT
This map. Don't remember the name.
TomZero (Tommy, he/him) ↩️
junior heron
Ah, Pillars
supple sonnetBOT
...right.
Ash And Gold ↩️
glad aurora
oh
yeah I can tell what happened here immediately just looking at the tacmap
your team had no vision or cap assets E side so the TF Ash E-side poke went through uncontested and you had no warning or support
edgy dove
Beam :)
glad aurora
average pub moment
junior heron
Pillars is a really small map, and there's some very specific spots where Beamstones can be really effective.
glad aurora
presumably the cappers on E died to yub or CV early?
junior heron
It was also basically the only 4 player map for a while, so it's really mapped out.
(Nyx's was also 4 player, and PNET played it a lot, but it's a big empty map that made 4p hard.)
glad aurora
pillars is a chess match and also one of the "stare at A all game" matches
if your team fucks up A you kind of already lost
junior heron
Caltrop was 3v3, and nobody is brave enough to play Canyon.
supple sonnetBOT
We had... some.
...but then the tug that was spotting for us chased a beam, died, and then we had no vision E side.
Ash And Gold ↩️
...I genuinely do not know what they were thinking.
We saw it wayyy above a rock and were like "ooh, if we pop up a little we can snipe it- why did we lose track? Why is that tug over there getting beamed?"
glad aurora
I don't even see a tug on this unless you're talking about the one on the complete other side of the map
supple sonnetBOT
There were...
checking battle report
Eight.
Ash And Gold ↩️
You just can't see them because, again, no sensors or cap assets and our team being... mostly dead.
supple sonnetBOT
Oh, yeah. Far right, the tug with the... report worthy name.