That's very okay!
#Nebulous: Fleet Command
topaz jolt
sharp crow
no worries
runic torrent
@sharp crow messaged my girlfriend and she had to kick me lying in bed
topaz jolt
Thank you for opening the boat channels!
runic torrent
sharp crow
I knew that would work
runic torrent
When I'm on my phone notifications are hard
runic torrent
I knew that would work
It diiid
wary flame
Proxy warfare against birds
topaz jolt
Hopefully she gets to give you some 💅 panic too.
sharp crow
misc will you be joining us today
wet root
Proxy warfare against birds
.length
topaz jolt
oak shell
It's the OSP mini container ship! It's real!
junior heron
@rigid bison you here?
topaz jolt
Hopefully everyone had fun playing silly spaceships today.
oak shell
I did!
mint sinew
Boats sure boated! Apparently I need to hedge my ANS fleets against "oops all Ocello" again
olive blade
its definitely popular
quiet quiver
Looking at it again, it does look like it's about to tug a barge
wicked mirage
Anyone wanna play a game?
oak shell
I could
junior heron
Looking at it again, it does look like it's about to tug a barge
now I'm wondering what would happen if I brought it into a game.
and if the front had had anything on it somehow
runic torrent
misty storm
ok i have to ask
how did you get this to show up
is that a tug attached to a third of a cln?
topaz jolt
I just screenshoted it as one of the people during boat night was streaming. So I put the image here so more could see.
wet root
Tom was trying to edit a CLN's sections
junior heron
trying to modify a CLN, it wouldn't load, then when I cancelled I had this.
junior heron
glad aurora
Damn, they really Dawi-coded Constantine hard
wet root
Arke is much scrunglier than I would have guessed for the ANS admiral
noble zodiac
Arke is much scrunglier than I would have guessed for the ANS admiral
catboy coded
wet root
You're so right
torpid osprey
Thats a catman not just a catboy
wet root
Meanwhile Constantine is basically a Saint Bernard
warm gulch
Thats a catman not just a catboy
i won't lie i did at first think he had cat ears so yeah
thats a catman
wary flame
Constantine was a surprise to me but he's channeling that 1910s Tirpitz/Von Spee energy rather than modern naval officer
noble zodiac
Meanwhile Constantine is basically a Saint Bernard
oh my gods
cat-x-dog constantine winchester Old Man Yaoi
wet root
It needs to happen
sharp crow
Constantine was a surprise to me but he's channeling that 1910s Tirpitz/Von Spee...
definitely looking like a guy ready to scream at the kaiser every day
misty storm
trying to modify a CLN, it wouldn't load, then when I cancelled I had this.
I see
glad aurora
added 15 modifiable stats to all spaceframes
she WHAT
I said "swappable engines" back in testing, this is going to be wild
Bit sad there's a beam buff but no aurora buff after the BSHRT bugfix some months back.
wet root
Rebalanced Claymore and Sturgeon fuel consumption rates to reduce massing potential.
Interesting, I assume this means increasing the loiter cost without increasing HBURN?
Glad to see fuel and range limits becoming more significant, it was kind of weird how much putting fuel tanks on fighters just meant they had infinite range and staying power
glad aurora
part of the problem used to be that if they didn't have infinite range and staying power they didn't do anything, but that was also a relic of why would you bring fighters era that swiftly flipped the other way when hellbombing and S1 spam was pushed to the fore and bombers could be omnisoftkilled
this might as well be carriers 2.0 though, I think this breaks quite literally every design current and adds a huge amount of extra optimization
mint sinew
I said "swappable engines" back in testing, this is going to be *wild*
Are they end user configurable stats like missile engines or is this just opening up more stats for backend tweaking?
glad aurora
I don't know yet! I haven't checked the game because I'm in the dinner mines.
wary flame
you know I assumed that was going to be "more stats for devs to change" but if I have fifteen sliders to optimise my S2 cudas I'm 100% down with that
S2 cudas may however be extremely sad due to the fuel changes
mint sinew
Looks like more back end stats open to tinkering and more static modules that adjust them
junior heron
Are they end user configurable stats like missile engines or is this just openin...
this is what the Tanto looks like now on PTB
wet root
Oooh
junior heron
mint sinew
Fighters walling BF S1s certainly seems like a powerful breakpoint
wet root
That's the one I was noticing, as well as S1 ELF
mint sinew
Pushing those breakpoints up certainly hurts the cost efficiency of ACMs
wet root
I think Ablative Foam might just be better though? 4 points for +80% hp is pretty good vs 8 points for +100% hp vs certain specific threats
I'm not sure if there's anything that kills an Ablative Foam Tanto that doesn't kill a Ceramic Tiling one as well
I don't know how 2 component mass compares to -25% turn rate though
Does loadout mass actually impact craft performance? I'm not seeing it listed as changing any stats in the Craft Stats
junior heron
do you have a loadout selected?
wet root
Oh, you get a "Maneuvering Penalty" if it's above a certain threshold - not sure specifically what
junior heron
I thought it was 20
wet root
Yep, looks like it is
1% penalty for every 0.2 mass above 20
So Foam is a situational 10% penalty
quiet quiver
Yeah Ceramic Tiling changing kill breakpoints is valuable, but mostly around one-shot stuff (eg. S1 BF 4) and taking more HP also avoids one-shots by changing the damage breakpoints instead
Tanto can have +100% health against some stuff for 8 pts, or it can have +80% health against everything for 4 pts
wet root
The removal of the wing fuel tanks is pretty significant for Tantos, brings them down from 4 missiles + Illums/jammers to 2 missiles
quiet quiver
Yeah I'm grumpy about that, the disparity between that and Cuda (lose 2 missiles to bring fuel, can have those slots back in other loadouts) was the biggest objection to Darg's proposal and none of the options to address it were picked
wet root
I honestly quite like the tradeoff between duration and capacity that it brings, but it should definitely be more equitable between the factions
Unrelated, but what is "Stopped Hit DR"? I'm wondering if it's supposed to be the multiplier for hits that don't pen the armor, and the percentage sign is a trick
junior heron
I assume it is
though if this update somehow made missiles always hit for 99.5% of damage at minimum I will laugh
It's a fine tradeoff if they bring the Small Workshop back to +300% max repair
wet root
Also, do we know what the normal launch angle for craft missiles is? Hard to tell how significant Helmet-Mounted Display is without that info
quiet quiver
I think that's a unit error
Went and reported Stopped Hit DR as a bug
(I've reported so many UI/tooltip errors in carrier testing)
quiet quiver
Ugh, typos in copy/strings
wet root
Yeah I'm grumpy about that, the disparity between that and Cuda (lose 2 missiles...
Between the coil nerf and this, my first-blush impression is definitely that we'll be moving to a more Cuda-favoured meta, but we'll see if that actually plays out
sharp crow
Fixed Tanto 15mm coilgun PIP priority conflict with wing guns.
I'm hoping this means that coil + 35mm will be viable instead
wet root
Hopefully!
I think it's just Compartment 2 is now full-size, so it can more easily get clipped?
Wait, no, there didn't used to be two compartments in the bridge
sharp crow
changes look really good. but I'm not gonna have time to remake my carrier before tomorrow lol
wet root
Right, Compartment 2 used to have two small compartments, and the bridge had one big one
wet root
changes look really good. but I'm not gonna have time to remake my carrier befor...
Yeah I'm guessing we'll just do Mainulous tomorrow, since <24h between patch and Boat Night doesn't leave a lot of time for fleet fixing
Better picture of the new Tug layout
junior heron
ah, literally exactly what I was thinking about reading some comments on the tug
quiet quiver
On the flip side, this now puts the small DC restore in a very safe spot
wet root
I expect losing the bridge CIC will make their TTK a lot more consistent
quiet quiver
That's the point, ye
wet root
Curious whether the most reliable center stack will end up being Aux/CIC/Rmag or CIC/Rmag/CIC
wary flame
yeah the tugs are sad now
can't bulk mag in the tower for torptugs
probably deserved
wet root
Bombers being able to tank two S2s instead of 1 (with Ablative Foam or Braced Frame) feels significant, Sarissa stocks are on the rise
glad aurora
ablative foam is going on every single one of my bombers yesterday
you can't make a breadstick any bigger and if you need two breadsticks to kill a bomber they're now basically useless instead of a perfect death wall
... static sockets do cost points, right?
wet root
Yep
4 points for Foam, 2 points for Braced
I suspect Braced Frame will be the choice for bombers, since it hits the same S2 breakpoints
glad aurora
Damn, probably can't just Shadow Wizard Money Gang 2: Return of the Wizards then, 2pts/bomber is a lot
wet root
Well, maybe worth the extra price for Foam on OSP, since ANS has RPF to finish off those last 20 points
glad aurora
yeah, on OSP I was thinking foam to allow R3 sturgeons to dive triple vaux
wet root
But for Claymores I'm not sure there's many cases where the difference between 155 and 175 hp is actually relevant
wet root
Yeah, maybe
I don't use bombers enough to have a good measure of 100flak's effectiveness against them
wary flame
I'm looking at the dirt cheap fighters with offbore SAH S1s
you just swarm in there and dump everything and hope someone is looking at your target
no idea if that works but it sounds funny
quiet quiver
Someone was also brainstorming stealth SDM-2 bombers just firing ACMs from out of the black
glad aurora
no idea if that works but it sounds funny
unfortunately SAH S2s still can't lead their target or loop back onto one once they pass it, so they are probably still bad
glad aurora
Someone was also brainstorming stealth SDM-2 bombers just firing ACMs from out o...
while funny SDM-2 bombers have never actually been useful and their radar signatures probably weren't the thing holding them back on that
wet root
I'm looking at the dirt cheap fighters with offbore SAH S1s
Offbore Wake S1s are the thing I'm eyeing, depending on how far off-angle you can fire them at
Firing angle has been one of the main limitations of them really wiping up furballs
quiet quiver
Goes from 30 deg to 120 deg
wary flame
yeah, mix SAH and Wake, bring tons of them
I like that in a big wing
especially if people are speccing to kill expensive tanky planes
quiet quiver
All craft have a base angle of 30 deg and Halberd, Tanto, Pike, and Cuda can get +300% from helmet
wet root
Ah, excellent, I'd been wondering about the base angle
wet root
I like that in a big wing
It was already very strong, definitely suspect the hat will make it terrifying (but very limited by the fuel changes)
topaz jolt
Oh gosh. That overheat damage chance change for the beam turret is HUGE!
junior heron
fighter craft still get 1-shot by the stock sdm-2 is still a little saddening :(
I really want to be able to pull them back and repair the few I have, but way too often I just lose them instantly
wary flame
try the stealth coating on the tantos, it's brutal
you still get oneshot sometimes but on average it takes like 3-4 to get a proper fusing
junior heron
oh really?
sounds nice
though I'm mostly thinking in terms of the 2 I keep on my beam battleship, so even the sometimes is enough to make me sad
topaz jolt
Is there going to be silly spaceship noises in a little bit today?
wet root
I'm guessing we'll be doing Mainulous, but I should be around
wet root
Not a lot of time for people to adjust fleets, and they really need adjusting for this test branch
junior heron
yeah
sharp crow
I mean if people have testulous carriers they really want to play, we could do testing
wet root
I started a server on test as well as main
So if we have enough fleets for Testulous we could try it
topaz jolt
Okiee!
Also isn't silly little spaceships only 10 minutes away from now?
wet root
Yep
sharp crow
correct
topaz jolt
Thank you Winged for opening the boat night rooms so early!
topaz jolt
||They've been open since last week. But I still want to be thankful.||
oak shell
I'll be a few minutes late
junior heron
<@&942093958551588904> boat night! would we like to play on 🇲 Main or 🇹 Test?
wicked mirage
<@&942093958551588904> boat night! would we like to play on 🇲 Main or 🇹 Test?
I'll be omw after DnD!
Probably won't be more than an hour
topaz jolt
Enjoy the D&D!
junior heron
Probably won't be more than an hour
still planning to show up?
topaz jolt
Little boop for the Pyrope.
topaz jolt
Combat go brrr.
junior heron
ah, so beyond that hour estimate
wicked mirage
ah, so beyond that hour estimate
Sorry :/
junior heron
all good!
topaz jolt
No need to be sorry for doing D&D Pyrope.
junior heron
neb has rolled an ominous and fitting name for a torpvette
glad aurora
now put in torpvettes 1-8
wicked mirage
Argh I just got back xD
wet root
@wary flame what radar/jamming loadout do you have on your Greedfords btw? I was unpleasantly surprised by their ability to maintain a lock through 4 Blankets
wary flame
standard bullseye, but they have one floodlight and one blanket between the two of them
wet root
Also I could only keep lock on one of them, does one have a bigger radar sig?
Oh, the Floodlight would do it
wary flame
they can lock a surprisingly large percentage of OSP frontline fleets out of hitting them beyond 120mm range
unfortunately they cannot do very much about spearfish
wet root
Not after the Tantos got eaten by Cudas at least
wet root
I think so? There was that big furball around the Axfords
I think our duel was outside Sarissa range
wary flame
sarissas plinked one or two of Tom's tantos but I think mine were off doing something else at the time
I think cap jman at least definitely wants to continue arming everything for strike and ignoring enemy air, because I really didn't get much done without strike cudas
topaz jolt
Thank you for people playing the one or both games earlier!
olive blade
I think you kinda do need to at least contest the air sometimes
wicked mirage
So, what kinds of builds are people doing for Craft these days on Testulous?
wicked mirage
Random name generator...
topaz jolt
That's just interstellar winds.
junior heron
Idle though: I wonder how difficult it is to extract the models from the treasure planet RTS...
quiet quiver
So, what kinds of builds are people doing for Craft these days on Testulous?
2 pts to fuck with one-shot/two-shot break points is a lot of value, same with giving expensive sensor craft +40 hp for relatively cheap. Besides that I’ve seen people experiment with a lot of things
Both avionics and engine modules see use in dogfight fighter builds, stealth BVR craft from AN (esp solo Levy or backpacks), CMD s2 Cuda strike…
+.5mm skin OTOH doesn’t give enough value to any craft compared to +40 hp for half the price
wicked mirage
+.5mm skin OTOH doesn’t give enough value to any craft compared to +40 hp for ha...
Yeah it's literally 8 points to buy back less than half the armor nerf that Fighters got last patch xD
I could see it having a better use in Bombers maybe.
wary flame
stealth coating claymores are pretty lethal, I will say
they can almost reach torpedo launch range before they come up on Bridgemaster
quiet quiver
I could see it having a better use in Bombers maybe.
IIRC it only helps bombers vs 20mm (probably dead anyway) and a very specific size of ACM
glad aurora
they can almost reach torpedo launch range before they come up on Bridgemaster
Are people forgetting to put a Huntress LN in their formations now?
quiet quiver
Oh and grazers
wicked mirage
stealth coating claymores are pretty lethal, I will say
I have some S2 Stealth Claymores I'm planning on having launch salvos from unexpected angles from the darkness ^^
wary flame
I need to redo my Jman, I tried including air-to-air loadouts and it really cuts the amount of striking you can do
I may try eight torp sturgeons + 8 strike cudas
junior heron
noooo the boat nights
mint sinew
Boat nights are now renamed to "plane nights" until further notice
junior heron
I'm here
I could start early-ish, in a netrunner game right now
okay I have been shot in the face
sharp crow
I mean I'll be there at the appointed time
but also I won't wait long if we don't have the people today
quiet quiver
I’m on vacation
junior heron
oh, enjoy!
oak shell
I can be there
quiet quiver
I was unable to convince my brother to play in my stead
sharp crow
alas
topaz jolt
I’m on vacation
Enjoy your time away!
oak shell
@runic torrent with Tech out for today, can you open the boat night channels, please?
junior heron
<@&942093958551588904> boat night!
wicked mirage
Boat!
topaz jolt
I think it's boat night tonight?
wicked mirage
yar
glad aurora
missile decoy launcher
6-S2 bay
is this the rumored "S2 claymores aren't throwing" pick (by standards of softkillable weapons)?
6 neatly separates into CMD/WAKE + CMD/SAH + CMD/ACT
also goodbye to all anti-skiff and anti-spyglass missiles if the enemy's paying attention, I guess
junior heron
hmm, I think the point cost changes make calling for PTB a bit of an ask
junior heron
anyway, <@&942093958551588904> PTB notes
wary flame
wow, that's a kicking for OSP
possibly time for very expensive jman + scout tugs + infinite shuttle works
tulip vault
Man… still not a fan of ANS getting all the cool craft tools when OSP is in theory the carrier faction
Nor am I fan of LNs getting a point increase??? Evil
junior heron
weren't they 350 originally?
tulip vault
Are they not 300 on main
wary flame
they were made cheaper in carrier testing to adjust for the fact they needed a ton more PD to not fall over
now ANS has rockets
this will be Interesting
noble zodiac
Man… still not a fan of ANS getting all the cool craft tools when OSP is in theo...
tbf, FBU makes sense
that said, the decoy launcher does seem a mite 🤨 at least notionally
glad aurora
OSP will remain the carrier faction in high-level play for so long as the R3 exists and AN has no comparable munition, at minimum
wary flame
I am interested to see if the decoy launcher + 6 S2s lets me easily murder any and all cappers with a cap defence levy launching wings of precisely one bomber
it definitely has the warhead weight
sharp crow
the decoy launcher is definitely a wild addition
stealth coating is a cool appropriate ANS special module but mostly I do wish OSP also got something faction unique there
tulip vault
That’s my thing, is that regardless of strength, the OSP doesn’t feel like they get cool things in equal measure to the ANS
Maybe that’s making up for the initial gulf of how cool plasma is
glad aurora
more that effective =! cool when it comes to carriers
I genuinely can't think of an effective and optimal tactic for craft that felt "cool" other than when Misc invented S1+S2 pairing, and that's been no longer optimal since just after release when SAHS1 became a thing
sharp crow
well we're talking about the planes themselves rather than the tactics of them
glad aurora
ha, fair enough.
sharp crow
ANS over time has gotten wingman AI, stealth coating, now the decoy launcher
it's a shame OSP hasn't got anything unique in the same vein
there is only one solution: we must put a grazer on a sturgeon
rigid bison
there is only one solution: we must put a grazer on a sturgeon
Plasma bombs too
sharp crow
the thing about plasma bombs is that I don't know what they do when you could also just fire a rocket
tulip vault
There’s long been speculation of the plasma standoff thing but I doubt it’ll come about
junior heron
there is only one solution: we must put a grazer on a sturgeon
okay but I will keep crying for a beam on the Claymore if this happens
sharp crow
Disabled craft self defense behavior against S2 missiles which usually resulted in flying into the prox trigger.
also rather curious what this means
junior heron
and is that just sgm-2, or anything "size 2"
anyway, high-coherency chaff detonating prox fuse makes me happy if that means what I think it means
oak shell
it's a shame OSP hasn't got anything unique in the same vein
Well, they have exclusive access to external fuel tanks now
Hm
Ill advised idea: give the OSP an option to mount refueling booms on their skiffs
bitter furnace
ANS over time has gotten wingman AI, stealth coating, now the decoy launcher
Wingman AI is still complete bullshit, but even I have to admit the other things are slightly deserved since the Claymore didn’t have much going for it. And the alternative to giving it unique things is to cave in to the demands to collapse the faction differentiation and get rid of the fixed missile bay system, destroying OSP’s flexibility advantage
Nonetheless yeah it would be nice to have at least one unique fixed component for OSP somewhere
wary flame
the thing I am most wary on actually isn't craft design, because I basically never dogfight so that can be other people's problem
I am a bit worried that, while the meat tug nerf was deserved, we are steadily racing to the bottom on capper design
craft kill anything expensive, so use gun corvs, which lose to gun tugs, so nerf gun tugs
craft still kill anything expensive, so do we just kind of shuffle around on the schelling point of "cheap beef" for a while?
also as someone who has been too busy to track the meta lately - did submunition containers ever get their absurd costs changed? they got collateral damaged by craft munition changes pretty badly
noble zodiac
Nonetheless yeah it would be nice to have at least one unique fixed component fo...
grazer cuda grazer cuda grazer cuda
plasma sturgeon plasma sturgeon plasma sturgeon
topaz jolt
Which ship is the Tug?
junior heron
yes
topaz jolt
Gosh. My OSP fleet just got 65 points cheaper.
I'm sooo HAPPY!
My Intel Monitor alone got 50 points cheaper.
topaz jolt
That makes the triple 450 gun cheaper than the double 450 gun??!
noble zodiac
...????
the one that got cheaper is the casemate
the casemate
the one that goes in bulkers
not either of the turrets
topaz jolt
I'm actually so confused.
topaz jolt
Oh wrong weapons.
topaz jolt
Sorry. I thought it was a different weapon. I'm not super knowledgeable about Nebulous. I also forget things that I'm told too.
sharp crow
I assume it's meant to help 450 liners offset the 50 point increase for liners in general
still going up 30 points net though
sharp crow
rough patch for OSP
wet root
Oh FFS
I am so exceptionally irked they added EMCON to craft
More micro tax! Yippee! That's definitely not what I play Nebulous to avoid!
At least being able to designate targets with illums is a nice fix
quiet quiver
My gut is that people are just gonna use it to make stealth coating craft stealthier because even nose radar craft get the full -25%
glad aurora
I am so exceptionally irked they added EMCON to craft
I'm genuinely quite surprised and am strongly against it now that we've been balancing for a rather long time with the assumption that anti-(sensor craft) missiles actually function without falling prey to the same basic "lmao you brought an actual seeker setup to a game? Sucks to be you" checklist
warm gulch
it's a shame OSP hasn't got anything unique in the same vein
i do still think to this day OSP was kind of shot from the start for being drafted up as the "hand-me-down" faction which severely limits what can be done with them
as pointed, i don't think its so much as lacking "cool" stuff (because to be frank broadsides and rocket launchers and gun-run bombers are fucking awesome, that alone has me on board) but rather everything the OSP is equippe with has to be below parity by virtue of their in-setting supply and procurement. even with the Carrier Update and the devs seeming to go "yeah, it should be the OPS that is the carrier faction" their craft represent qualitatively worse designs, poorer training, etc etc
would it be cool to have something unique or even remotely flashy? sure, but the writing, spirit, and fantasy of the faction is "everything the ANS has already thrown out or replaced bolted to anything that can hold it" and that is going to be forever be a fetter around its ankle, i feel
quiet quiver
The decoy launchers are almost definitely not making it to live I feel
oak shell
I guess I'd better try them out today, then
junior heron
on my way home from a friends, should be there for game 1 hopefully
wet root
I probably won't make it today, but I'll get a new test branch server spinning up
(The one I launched last night is out of date :P )
dark dawn
would it be cool to have *something* unique or even remotely flashy? sure, but t...
I do feel like Lys is strongly biased towards the Big Modern Navy Faction, if subconsciously
Same partially with the playerbase
I was honestly hoping that carriers would be where they get the fancy stuff, the OSP have a huge industry and no procurement bloat by virtue of not having any procurement
They can just yell at a company to make something top-shelf and implement it instead of going through a whole Pentagon Wars thing
dark dawn
But warships take years to put together hence the old stuff and converted freighters, but aircraft are comparatively easier to build by virtue of, you know, meters cubed
quiet quiver
Channels open
junior heron
Channels open
<@&942093958551588904> boat night!
topaz jolt
I just woke up from a little nap. So my computer is a little slow to start.
junior heron
last call for game 1, any latecomers?
olive blade
Same partially with the playerbase
thats honestly my feeling at this point
dark dawn
I'm glad we agree(?)
olive blade
though I think its more the playerbase
and a big factor is just OSP is weirder and less intuitive and less like comfy to play
I think kinda osp needs toys until the osp slots in pubs fill up as fast as ans personally
wet root
and a big factor is just OSP is weirder and less intuitive and less like comfy t...
I think OSPs tendency to have more ships is also a factor, it takes more effort to play, and micro taxes like softkill and LoS interruptions exacerbate the issue
Unfortunately there's a very vocal section of the playerbase that are vehemently opposed to automating any of that sort of thing
dark dawn
I think kinda osp needs toys until the osp slots in pubs fill up as fast as ans ...
With things that aren't carriers, though maybe that's just me, but I can never get an OSP lobby without someone yoinking the CV slot
olive blade
yeah I mean its the fun slot
thats why you feel that way rather than being sad someone has nabbed caps or liners or something
the best osp fleets feel a bit dull
they need some jazz
oak shell
My go do OSP fleet is x3 450 liners, and that's fun to me
junior heron
I didn't play it today on account of only playing 9k, but I want to play more MDs. specifically, comboing them with some light bombs for after they've redded a target
oak shell
ooh, interesting
junior heron
MD is also the OSP weapon with the most fun noise, comparable to the beam
oak shell
Would you be flying the bomb cudas off the back of the MD liner?
mint sinew
the best osp fleets feel a bit dull
I disagree a bit with that, I play a lot of OSP frontline and find it less dull than the ANS equivalents
You have to pay your "these ships make your team functional" tax, but that's true of the best fleets period
dark dawn
I've actually never made a frontline OSP fleet, what do they look like?
mint sinew
My go to recipe is a pair of broadside bulkers, a few shuttles to pressure cap points/provide offset tracks. You then have a few hundred points left to solve your sensor on missile defence problems (bloodhound tug, craft backpack, pd ships, etc.)
Other popular fleets include:
- 4-5 monitors
- 3 marauders
- 2 Ocellos
olive blade
I mean I enjoy playing some frontline too but like objectively speaking
when I play pubs my team is usually low on frontline or caps
dark dawn
Okay caps are always going to be a problem
olive blade
yeah and I get that, not everyone has micro but like, often you get 3 people that want to be cv and nobody that wants to be bulkers or such
dark dawn
I do remember trying out revolver bulkers and they were fun but rather stressful
olive blade
not to mention the weird gimmic fleets but thats always a pub thing I guess
dark dawn
The Good Idea Fairy is an ever-present threat, yes
olive blade
when someone arrives with the worlds worst S2 ocellos or something
glad aurora
Unfortunately there's a very vocal section of the playerbase that are vehemently...
If you do automate the Standard Softkill Checklist, either the automation gets you killed because it does it wrong (gap between human decision-making and AI decision tree), and thus it might as well not have been automated in the first place, or it makes missiles irrelevant since properly executed softkill is functionally perfect in Nebulous. It's another outgrowth of a bottom-level structural issue.
oak shell
What would be the fix? Make softkill a % chance rather than a QTE, maybe?
wet root
I mean, "missiles are only relevant if your opposition misplays" means that missiles should be buffed or softkill nerfed, not that you should make it a pain to play well
wet root
I do remember trying out revolver bulkers and they were fun but rather stressful
Don't get me started on Bulker micro, though at least they have improved it somewhat
dark dawn
So I've heard
olive blade
I think revolvers are pretty doable if you don't have too much else
but one revolver and caps sounds like a nightmare
wet root
They're just annoying to play in a way that ANS stuff isn't, IMO
glad aurora
What would be the fix? Make softkill a % chance rather than a QTE, maybe?
The problem there, while potentially more accurate to real-life sensor attempts to penetrate jamming and disregard decoys, is "the RNG fucked me over and I couldn't do anything about it, this sucks".
I genuinely have no answer to this issue and I don't envy Lys having to deal with it.
olive blade
yeah its a deep problem
dark dawn
Unfortunately reality is not consistent
wet root
There are a lot of knobs to play with though, such as mount requirements and cost
olive blade
I mean you can do some things where just doing all the softkill at once doesn't work so good
you have to guess
dark dawn
Or bring intel
olive blade
yeah
and ID the missiles, but then it can be a mixed swarm
but if you are forcing mixed swarms and half only gets through
half gets decoyed
then thats a win to the system
glad aurora
That's essentially the principle behind ARAD/ACT spam, which is why that's one of the Good Missiles, but unfortunately there are still ways to get around that - they're just more fiddly and micro-intensive or take up some amount of mount pressure, which is what makes it a Good Missile
wet root
then thats a win to the system
Only with the current point costs, though - if it were consistently automated you could adjust that value
glad aurora
Yeah, by "good missile" I mean "for ANS," since on OSP you have the R3
whether container-delivered or plane-delivered
olive blade
in theory osp should be able to use actual seekers too
like its jsut a bad gamestate if you can't
glad aurora
Oh yeah, that's why containers have three seeker slots
olive blade
R3 carries the balance but its still like, yeah
glad aurora
IIRC it's a lot of ACT/WAKE/HOJ + ACT/WAKE/decoy? been awhile.
wet root
Hey, OSP can also use SAH, the missile whose reliability is directly micro-based -_-
dark dawn
Man
I remember thinking that THERM validators would make OSP actually capable of missile warfare
glad aurora
Well, Yes But Also No
wet root
Doesn't it cost the same as EO validator?
dark dawn
OSP doesn't get those
wet root
Except OSP doesn't have hybrids
glad aurora
keep in mind I'm just talking about high-level play here, if you walk into pubs with ACT/[THERM] crates you have a reasonably high probability to just delete whatever AN is running
dark dawn
OSP did have EO seekers once, they made containers actually able to kill something
wet root
Yeah, my point is it's a less-reliable version of a validator that's already rare to see, on a faction with missiles that can't take advantage of it as well
Though tbf container discounts make that somewhat of an invalid comparison
glad aurora
Walking the softkill checklist is, realistically, one of the biggest separators between skill levels in Neb
dark dawn
I'm starting to see why everyone wants wire-guided missiles
wet root
(I also think it's pretty unhealthy for balancing missiles, since changes will have such different impacts on different players)
glad aurora
it's complicated.
back in the day, the proposal that was pretty much unanimously desired was for a kind of magnetic seeker that had explicitly limited and mount-restricted softkill counterplay if any
but adding a new signature would mean that Lys had to rip out and redo how she did missile signatures in the code.
thus, THERMval: a compromise pick
ultimately, if you make missiles that can't be countered except by hardkill as well, the question then becomes "how much of this do I need to penetrate any reasonable hardkill net? I then bring exactly that much and auto-win unless the enemy team drastically overinvests against a threat they're not sure they're going to face, or I'm killed before I can launch"
dark dawn
I'm starting to see why most games pretend naval warfare ended in 1945
glad aurora
and people really, really hate dying to missiles
glad aurora
~~I'm starting to see why most games pretend naval warfare ended in 1945~~
Sea Power really do be like "yeah if you get saturation attacked with heavy anti-ship missiles you're dead"
dark dawn
Yeah, that game is 85% sensors management
glad aurora
Missiles are complicated and very hard to balance in an environment where guns need to also be a relevant choice!
dark dawn
Yeah, there's a reason guns were made obsolete
(Though arguably in space a gun would have no upper range limit but still)
wet root
ultimately, if you make missiles that can't be countered except by hardkill as w...
I disagree that these are the only two options though - There's so many ways you can balance missiles, everything from missile and PD range to damage to slot requirements and costs, that I don't buy that they will necessarily be a binary universal or pointless
It's absolutely not a trivial balance problem, but there's no reason to believe it's insurmountable
But it's much harder to balance when 90% of a missile's efficacy depends on how well the defending player presses the right button sequence, rather than having a consistent defense that can actually be tested and compared reliably across skill levels
glad aurora
Aye, it's split across the skill difference: missiles right now are good in pubs but swingy depending on your opponents, and largely nonfunctional outside of a handful of designs and archetypes against the most capable players in structured play.
I can see what you mean about having a baseline and how that ties into potentially automating softkill and then adjusting its efficacy, however.
wet root
The split also just means, you have to choose one group of players to balance for currently, which is just unhealthy for the game
quiet quiver
Also unfortunately one of the correct softkill responses is “do nothing and let the PD handle it”
eg. It’s not worth a full emcon or active decoy against a single act/[arad] S2
There is though one thing that’s basically always correct to do if the options are available and that’s to run the interrupt, warbler, and blackjack; but only the blackjack gets automatic behavior
junior heron
glad aurora
Does the blackjack automatically trigger on craft and thus have to still effectively be micro'd?
(still, that is, I remember it used to)
tulip vault
The problem *there*, while potentially more accurate to real-life sensor attempt...
Honestly there’s enough rng in this game that I really wouldn’t mind more
Seems pretty unequivocally better than making 90% of missiles pubstomping tools only
worthy bane
The problem *there*, while potentially more accurate to real-life sensor attempt...
I think there's potentially a space where the intent is softkill to filter down a strike and hardkill for whatever gets through
sharp crow
https://www.phixiv.net/en/artworks/129391406 came across this on pixiv today, don't think I've seen it posted before
nebulous fanart in the wild
glad aurora
That's sick
low monolith
Raw
mental tusk
Gonna run a PvE OBL game probably here soon. Will post :3
It’ll be in an hour and a half or so after work 😄
oak shell
Welcome to the boat chat
We have regular Nebulous games on Saturdays.
Next boat night is <t:1748120400:F>
@quiet quiver pin for this, please
quiet quiver
Next boat night is <t:1748120400:F>
mental tusk
Welcome to the boat chat
Can I still ping for weekly casual stuff that I host?
junior heron
yeah, though most activity is on the weekend games (and even those have been quiet recently)
mental tusk
ah ok, well
Looking to wake up a little?
Want to test your builds in-between main lobby games?
Come down to the NebFleet Fight Club to test your mettle against the computer
in a beginner-friendly setting with some mods enabled.
Come join the BlueFor!
[Custom Player Count is on, so tons of people can play BlueFor] <@&942093958551588904>
Team One: 1/50 Max Players
wicked mirage
People might be sleepy rn
sharp crow
I don't think we have many beginners left either unfortunately
mental tusk
Looking to wake up a little?
Want to test your builds in-between main lobby games?
Come down to the NebFleet Fight Club to test your mettle against the computer
in a beginner-friendly setting with some mods enabled.
Come join the BlueFor!
[Custom Player Count, OBL, Free Traders, Modded Maps]
20=Player Bluefor Team Max! Come drop in! <@&942093958551588904>
😄
quiet quiver
Wait, OBL and Free Traders?
quiet quiver
junior heron
<@&942093958551588904> newest ptb, now with 75% less claymore decoys
dark dawn
Half the damage though
quiet quiver
Eh, they hit like decent torps
dark dawn
I feel like this isn't solving the underlying issue of 'softkill is so strong we've reached the point where smart munitions are worse than unguided ones'
But it's something.
oak shell
Dang, I didn't get to try out the claymore decoys before the nerf
dark dawn
Also RIP craft radars which
Fair enough
quiet quiver
Stealth ARAD ACM nerf?
dark dawn
Technically yes, assuming those care about angle
sharp crow
yeah the R3 nerf is well deserved
dark dawn
But also more reason to invest in SEW assets and makes having sensor superiority much more important
topaz jolt
I wonder if my S3H Kinetic Pen missiles will get their cost reduced ever.
olive blade
honestly I think if you do get like 6-8 sturgeons to like 2km on the side of a bb
you deserve the kill
mental tusk
Looking to wake up a little?
Want to test your builds in-between main lobby games?
Come down to the NebFleet Fight Club to test your mettle against the computer
in a beginner-friendly setting with some mods enabled.
Come join the BlueFor!
[OBL, Modded Maps]
3/5 Players <@&942093958551588904>
wicked mirage
honestly I think if you do get like 6-8 sturgeons to like 2km on the side of a b...
Don't worry, I'm 99% sure Spearfish can still accomplish that in that scenario.
1500 damage slaps harder than a max warhead S2
and 16 max warhead S2's into the side of a BB also ruins its day lol
and turns it into a flaming husk.
mental tusk
Just need one more 😄
topaz jolt
I should try OBL again.
mental tusk
I’ll run some more OBL scrims again tomorrow after work around 3:30-4 EST
olive blade
and 16 max warhead S2's into the side of a BB also ruins its day lol
I'm assuming you lose a decent few to PD etc
and AMMs
so like maybe ~8 through
I'm not sure reliably breaks mag/CIC to let the bombs connect
noble zodiac
8 through
no penaids
what the fuck are all of you doing that you're getting through eight entire R3s against a battleship with (what sounds like) zero support
quiet quiver
You could bring penaids in the s2 slots but it's 12 pts per decoy set or 7 pts per SSJ, it's not cheap
olive blade
personally I do bring penaids and etc
thats just about what I estimate to get through on a perfectly clean strike against a relatively intact BB firing at ~2km on clean side appraoch
noble zodiac
You *could* bring penaids in the s2 slots but it's 12 pts per decoy set or 7 pts...
what do you mean could
quiet quiver
Okay I don't see most people bringing them
noble zodiac
i've been lingering on this vibe i seem to get that the default is to not bring them but
i'm really confused about it because like if they aren't
how the fuck do they get anything through
quiet quiver
I guess the pts cut on R3s means more dosh to throw at penaids
noble zodiac
see like
i'm not contesting that people just, don't bring them, i get that same impression too
im just
confused
how
noble zodiac
thats just about what I estimate to get through on a perfectly clean strike agai...
yeah
i'm largely inclined to agree
quiet quiver
Chaotic option is seeing how long a high-speed low-warhead S3 survives with terminals, but it's gotta have a lower TTGI than the closest R3 which really restricts it
olive blade
because honestly
if I set it up perfectly cleanly
I think I should get a BB
they have many chances and options to stuff it beforehand
noble zodiac
Chaotic option is seeing how long a high-speed low-warhead S3 survives with term...
i mean yeah its gonna get fucken softkilled and cost more than the bare R3
but like
genuinely how are people hitting their R3s without penaids
not rhetorical
quiet quiver
Oh it's fine if it gets softkilled as long as the PD continues to aim for it
noble zodiac
how ?
olive blade
I dunno bad BB design or defense I guess
glad aurora
*genuinely how are people hitting their R3s without penaids*
fly closer, fire more
noble zodiac
closer
2km?
more
squadron of 8 sturgs?
glad aurora
the r3 is the platonic ideal of the craft munition paradigm: the closer you fly your craft and the more you shoot, the more damage you deal
there's really nothing else you can do to improve probability of success beyond that
noble zodiac
because those are my assumptions for penaids
like are people driving to like
inside defender range with their sturgs ???????
quiet quiver
If this torp's only job is beating the R3's speed and drawing defender fire, that means it's like 4 to 6 pts depending on if you actually put a warhead in it
(1 pt base, 1 pt FACT, 1 pt weave, <1 pts engine, 0-2 pts warhead)
sharp crow
*inside* defender range with their sturgs ???????
ideally yes
not like they're gonna hit any craft set to evade anyway
noble zodiac
rrrriiiighhht
quiet quiver
I think you toggle down to juke or direct as you start launching, b/c the PD will instantly swap to the actual missiles
noble zodiac
yeah
sharp crow
yep
quiet quiver
I still want Lys to add a DIVE option to STAND-OFF/STAND-IN that's like 2 or 1.5km or something
supple sonnetBOT
Stupid question: Are there any good HAA for ANS that.. Isn't just missiles?
supple sonnetBOT
Heavy anti-air.
oak shell
Defenders
supple sonnetBOT
That's LAA.
oak shell
What's the distinction?
sharp crow
I don't think defenders do much to craft
supple sonnetBOT
I.. I need to explain shipborne AA doctrine now, don't I?
noble zodiac
evading planes are completely immune to defenders (until they Suddenly Aren't)
noble zodiac
I.. I need to explain shipborne AA doctrine now, don't I?
yeah
OH
WAIT
you mean like, zoning?
like area defense?
sharp crow
whenever I play a moorline I've never felt deterred by any amount of defenders
noble zodiac
100mm flak and 250RPF both work wonders
olive blade
I mean the trick is usually to stay outside defender range
supple sonnetBOT
250?
olive blade
as soon as they start hitting the planes pop
glad aurora
to be clear, there is no heavy AA option for ANS that works outside of triple Vauxhall
noble zodiac
it doesn't usually kill planes - but it puts a clock on their ability to operate
noble zodiac
to be clear, there is no heavy AA option for ANS that works outside of triple Va...
yeah pretty much
noble zodiac
TBH auroras might also qualify
true
sharp crow
I fly my sturgs into defender range and launch just fine pretty consistently
supple sonnetBOT
So.. Either spend like 500 points on missiles.. Or just.. sad sigh.
Ash And Gold ↩️
olive blade
I mean like whats your goal
be immune to planes totally? then yeah
pay the tax
or bring like 12 auroras or something
supple sonnetBOT
Not completely immune, but.. A tough enough target that they might want to reconsider.
noble zodiac
have like a bunch of sarissas
sharp crow
missiles are your only real option
olive blade
and realistically you always want some level of layering
noble zodiac
or a sarissa cube
olive blade
but its gonna involve missiles
oak shell
I've had some success with 250 RPF
noble zodiac
and missiles
olive blade
sarissas and rpf I find struggles with evade
noble zodiac
SDMs are just good
supple sonnetBOT
The problem I have with missiles is.. They're limited in number and extremely expensive.
glad aurora
if you want to be immune to craft as a BB, you put missiles in the C4 slot and bring a frigate or sprinter PD escort
sharp crow
The problem I have with missiles is.. They're limited in number and extremely ex...
that is the main balance problem of neb right now yeah lol
supple sonnetBOT
Also, "immune" is an impossible bar, so I'm not even aiming for it.
sharp crow
outside of anti craft missiles it's pretty difficult for most ships to do much to craft
supple sonnetBOT
The thing is, 100RPF for OSP is a fine HAA option. But.. ANS's 120RPF is.. Apparently like, really really bad?
olive blade
I mean it seesaws
sharp crow
120 rpf is a victim of the frigblob era
olive blade
100flak was nuts and got nerfed a lot
glad aurora
it's only fine because you can bring 18 barrels of it trivially, which also made it nuts, yeah
the only way AN gets to bring 18 barrels of 120RPF is with, well, a bad fleet
not their standard frontline
supple sonnetBOT
I mean single-barrel 100, not quad barrel.
glad aurora
yes, so do I
olive blade
the problem with hard multipurpose guns screwing strike craft is that they are multipurpose and cover huge areas and functionally free to keep firing
supple sonnetBOT
Huh.
olive blade
so if they become generally good enough they fully shut out strike carft
glad aurora
and missiles!
100flak had months where they just killed all direct-fire hybrids that they could actually see well enough to shoot
olive blade
yeah
supple sonnetBOT
Basically though, if I take a full SDM bank, then I'm losing in the fleet editor.
Because I'm choking out my fleet.
olive blade
if you take 500 points of missiles and shut out 3k of moorline you have won
glad aurora
well, yeah, you don't fill it, you just put in ~48 cheap SDMs and make it really annoying to force the attack on you
sharp crow
flak/rpf that detonates on craft but not missiles might be interesting
olive blade
like if you want to really shut out the craft players it should cost you
imo
otherwise there is not really much point having craft
supple sonnetBOT
I feel like we have different views on what I want.
I'm not asking for immunity, I'm asking for a chance to hit the craft, because they're not going to get within 20mm range.
olive blade
just take a box of cheap SDMs, a few breadsticks, a softkill suite and a few defenders and you cut out most threats realistically
if you want to actively zone them, its a bit more expensive
quiet quiver
the problem with hard multipurpose guns screwing strike craft is that they are m...
IMO it's fine for stuff like Trivaux because it means an entire 3k not shooting at OSP frontline, I think the opportunity cost is real if the carrier player actually plays with their team
olive blade
I'm talking about like
the 100mm flak era
or the old gunfrigs in the missile meta
where the meta brawling fleets were incidentally immune to strike and missiles
quiet quiver
100mm flak era is sorta weird because how often 100mm liners are zoned out and waiting for an opportunity so there's not as much opportunity cost, but also 100mm flak was really good vs AN cruise
glad aurora
Well, they didn't use 100mm as their primary armament, they used 450 as their primary armament
or 250/plas
quiet quiver
Yeah and on a 450 liner the 100mm is idle a lot of the time
olive blade
I think you probably can make a hard fleet to even approach with no missiles, but its a bit awkward and probably involves pretty expensive PD
supple sonnetBOT
I'm in this awkward situation where 64 SDMs is way too few but also prohibitively expensive?
glad aurora
How is it too few?
quiet quiver
But if also TBH even in that era if bombers wanted to strike a liner and did a straight approach you needed ludicrous amounts of 100mm for flak to kill bombers in time
olive blade
64 should do pretty good
olive blade
But if also TBH even in that era if bombers wanted to strike a liner and did a s...
you just need to strip the fighters and let the breadsticks do their work
or your own fighters in the area
though honestly I'd probably go a bit less than 64 and some breadsticks
supple sonnetBOT
Because at least half of those are going to miss or get defeated, half of what remains are going to no-sell, and then that remainder is going to kill like 1 target each.
Ash And Gold ↩️
quiet quiver
Even fighters could survive long enough to enable hellbomb strikes IIRC, I remember tests. It helped tip the dogfight balance a lot but you needed Cudas nearby for the dogfights to happen
supple sonnetBOT
Also, define "breadstick" here?
olive blade
S2 designed for killing bombers in one shot
quiet quiver
Breadstick is an anti-bomber S2, ye
And not just in one shot but tuned to maximize reliable interception range
olive blade
come out around 7pts a pop usually and are fairly reliable
quiet quiver
5 pts for Wake/Act, 7 pts for CMD
glad aurora
Because *at least* half of those are going to miss or get defeated, half of what...
This seems like you're using bad missiles.
supple sonnetBOT
No, I'm assuming ideal missiles.
Ash And Gold ↩️
..Well, excluding CMD recievers.
The SDM I have to hand is this thing.
lime jungleBOT
SDM-204 Clue-By-Four is a size 2 missile that costs 4 points.
lime jungleBOT
The SDM I have to hand is this thing.
SDM-204 Clue-By-Four is a size 2 missile that costs 4 points.
supple sonnetBOT
..I forget that duplicates Hazel.
glad aurora
apply fish poking stick to problem
(sunrays are now useless thanks to PTB and the SDM got changed so I'm not sure if breakspears work anymore)
sharp crow
looking forward to doing ptb neb today
supple sonnetBOT
Also I'm sorry if I seem grumpy about this.
olive blade
its all good just figuring out exactly where the confusion is, and what bit is not working for you
supple sonnetBOT
She's doing a lot of (her words nor mine) nasty napkin maths.
mental tusk
Hey if people are running games after or before it should be cool :3 I’ll have stuff for people that need a break 😄
mental tusk
Come join us for some Operation: Burning Lance scrims in a beginner-friendly environment. Those without OBL fleets can use Zopto’s OBL premade fleets on the workshop. (PvP, Start Time 3:30-4 est, come take a break between fight night games.)
<@&942093958551588904> ❤️
mental tusk
sharp crow
@wicked mirage if you're around, would you mind sharing that levy fleet with the stealth tantos from a couple weeks ago? I'm very curious about those
wicked mirage
<@158082040107892737> if you're around, would you mind sharing that levy fleet w...
Sure thing! Let me just update the fleet for the new patch
It would make me very happy if you played the fleet, but if you wanna just use it for inspiration that's fine too xD
sharp crow
I was planning on playing it before doing anything with it myself
noble zodiac
Sure thing! Let me just update the fleet for the new patch
👀 can i maybe see too ?
i still need to make a levy fleet so i can into carriers as ANS instead of just OSP x3
wicked mirage
@sharp crow @noble zodiac Okay! Here we go!! 
-
The Sun Rose is a Claymore with Ceramic Plating to resist any kind of S1 as well as 20mm to help with dropping its Torps. It also has a Decoy Projector to make up for a slight lack of maneuverability with the Torps.
-
The Sunstone is a stock Sundial with Ablative Foam and a good countermeasure setup, not much to say here.
-
The Star Thorn is an Ablative Foam Tanto and a dedicated escort with a ritzy setup designed to protect both itself and a high value asset such as a capital ship or bomber wing against enemy missiles and craft.
-
The Moon Thorn is the Stealth Tanto and also the most numerous craft in the Levy, the combo here is its CMD SDM-2's which can be fired on Standoff from the darkness using the Sundial's radar to spot. The track is good enough for frag missiles. It also has the option of taking offensive S2's for standoff anti-ship strikes as well.
-
Finally, the Zephyr is an anti-capper SAH spam bomber Tanto. It has the Nose Illuminator and can't defend itself short of its countermeasures, so if enemy craft come for it run them away lol.
Alrighty! I hope this works well for you all, I just spend the last almost 3 hours updating and reworking this fleet to squeeze all the good stuff into it! 
Also, as a little heads up everything in this fleet is heavily invested and nothing is particularly expendable, so try to keep all your Craft alive as long as possible! Glhf ♥️
lime jungleBOT
<@102124257290518528> <@591746793054797825> Okay! Here we go!! <:RubyCheer:63188...
Fleet 'Celestial Garden (3k ECV)' is composed of 1 ship which costs 3000 points:
CELESTIAL GARDEN : 'Levy' class Escort Carrier [PD Gun]
```This fleet uses 9 different missile types:
```yaml
SDM-103 Night Wind : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR) - HE FRAG [4pts]
SDM-113 Shooting Star : DIRECT - CMD - HE FRAG [9pts]
SDM-2-2 Ice Spear : DIRECT - CMD/PSV(WAKE) - HE FRAG [7pts]
SGM-1-7 Zephyrthorn : DIRECT - SAH(RADAR) - HE SHAPED [1pts]
SGM-101 Ceremonial Arming Missile : DIRECT - PSV(WAKE) - HE SHAPED [1pts]
SGM-106 Dia : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR) - HE FRAG [3pts]
SGM-231 SILVER WAVE : DIRECT - ARAD(RADAR)/ACT(RADAR) - HE SHAPED [8pts]
SGM-233 MOONBEAM : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR)/[ARAD(RADAR)] - HE SHAPED [8pts]
SGT-366 SOLAR FLARE : DIRECT - CMD/PSV(WAKE) - HE SHAPED [13pts]
wicked mirage
Btw there's enough munitions in the Levy for about two full loadouts of all loadouts for all craft, for the most part.
So that all should last most of a match.
sharp crow
hell yeah, thank you very much
keeping craft alive is not what I'm used to doing so I'll see how this goes 
wicked mirage
keeping craft alive is not what I'm used to doing so I'll see how this goes <:do...
I believe in you! The Levy also has pretty good DC for a Levy, having both a Large and Reinforced DC Locker, so hopefully that can help as well if the worst happens ^^
wicked mirage
Oh, btw the Night Wind SDM-1's on the Moon Thorns are for interdicting enemy SDM-2's, but they can also be used against enemy Fighters in a pinch.
The Shooting Stars can also do all that stuff on the Star Thorns too.
and better because they're CMD with bigger warheads xD
sharp crow
good excuse to flip the new defensive stance switches
wicked mirage
good excuse to flip the new defensive stance switches
Yeah! 
mental tusk
Looking to get some games in?
Want to try something different from the norm?
Come down to the Nebfleet Fight Club for a PvP
Operation: Burning Lance Session.
Slots: 10, and rapidly filling fast!
Fleets can be provided by Zopto's premade OBL fleets on the Workshop. <@&942093958551588904>
runic torrent
<@&942093958551588904> channels open!
junior heron
boat night!
wicked mirage
junior heron
game 2 team 2 top team
sharp crow
@wet root where art thou
wicked mirage
@noble zodiac Wanna play? 😄
noble zodiac
in principle yes, however am hyperfixating on fleet dev for a campaign 3:
and also have an irl thing in like 2hrs
wicked mirage
in principle yes, however am hyperfixating on fleet dev for a campaign 3:
You should eat your players, devour their souls and play with us instead
noble zodiac
in principle yes, however am hyperfixating on fleet dev for a campaign 3:
1 of the mods just got a giga update and i have to incorporate the changes
noble zodiac
You should eat your players, devour their souls and play with us instead
i mean im one of the players not the gm
wicked mirage
i mean im one of the players not the gm
Did I stutter!
noble zodiac
oak shell
No gammulous today 😔
wicked mirage
@noble zodiac @sharp crow Updated version of the Carrier with higher G torps and a HoJ instead of Wake backup seeker, that's the only change ^^
lime jungleBOT
<@591746793054797825> <@102124257290518528> Updated version of the Carrier with ...
Fleet 'Celestial Garden (3k ECV)' is composed of 1 ship which costs 3000 points:
CELESTIAL GARDEN : 'Levy' class Escort Carrier [PD Gun]
```This fleet uses 9 different missile types:
```yaml
SDM-103 Night Wind : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR) - HE FRAG [4pts]
SDM-113 Shooting Star : DIRECT - CMD - HE FRAG [9pts]
SDM-2-2 Ice Spear : DIRECT - CMD/PSV(WAKE) - HE FRAG [7pts]
SGM-1-7 Zephyrthorn : DIRECT - SAH(RADAR) - HE SHAPED [1pts]
SGM-101 Ceremonial Arming Missile : DIRECT - PSV(WAKE) - HE SHAPED [1pts]
SGM-106 Dia : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR) - HE FRAG [3pts]
SGM-231 SILVER WAVE : DIRECT - ARAD(RADAR)/ACT(RADAR) - HE SHAPED [8pts]
SGM-233 MOONBEAM : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR)/[ARAD(RADAR)] - HE SHAPED [8pts]
SGT-366 SOLAR FLARE : DIRECT - CMD/HOJ(RADAR) - HE SHAPED [13pts]
quiet quiver
https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/how-space-strategy-sim-nebulous-channels-eight-years-in-the-us-navy
quiet quiver
Finished reading it, it’s a really cool interview
junior heron
shoutout to the mixed faction, tumbleweed CTF game in that article
wait no
that's just a vauxhall nicknamed flag
mint sinew
Are you just quietly ignoring the ewr device Ocellos?
quiet quiver
Ocello is the cross-faction gear ship, so obviously AN should bring one if they want EWR
junior heron
nodding
the interview itself is pretty cool too
junior heron
Ocello is the cross-faction gear ship, so obviously AN should bring one if they ...
@wet root you should disable locked factions so that we can make fleets specifically for this
ANS can bring an OSP fleet, but only ocellos
wet root
I think I have disabled locked factions, actually
wet root
I would absolutely fly my Ocellos on ANS
wet root
lmao
wet root
and these are old provided screenshots
It still has the railgun called a mass driver
wet root
It would also let you bring pikes to ANS
The 100mm Ocello Device mightactually be usable on ANS
junior heron
choosing to disregard context: you're right, ocello should be allowed to mount a mass driver
wet root
And spinal railguns!
junior heron
ooh also plasmacello could probably open up RPF
wet root
And Bloodhounds
junior heron
hmm
if Ocello could mount spinals, it could also get a beam
then I'd finally have something on OSP to enjoy playing
wet root
TBH that would probably be strong enough to be worth the horrible facing micro, so I'm no longer in favour of deep primary mounts on the Ocello
junior heron
lol
noble zodiac
not sure if 3 and 4 are mod ships in this one
OH THATS ONE OF MY OLD SCREENSHOTS FROM ANCIENT TESTING BEFORE EARLY ACCESS
junior heron
provided by Hooded Horse Gamma
noble zodiac
as much as that was before my egg cracked and referencing a shitty cringe fanfic i need to rework, i'd recognize that shot of the Silverbird-Delgaro ANYWHERE
noble zodiac
not sure if 3 and 4 are mod ships in this one
also yeah that was Old Sprinter
lmao my fucking empty ass rail DD
iirc that was like
one of the very first 4v4s ever played
i might still have the video
quiet quiver
Okay, Sprinter got the new model on Jan 23, 2022; callsigns got added on Feb 5, 2021
So that screenshot was somewhere between those dates
Callsigns was definitely earlier than I remembered
And max player count was increased to 8 on Jan 10, 2021
open plank
quiet quiver
No not again, we're talking about a screenshot from 2021
junior heron
I forgot you weren't already a commodore.
mental tusk
<@&942093958551588904>
topaz jolt
<@&942093958551588904>
Is there a game for that about to happen? Or did I miss the silly space games?
I think I missed the game(s) that happened earlier.
runic torrent
opened the channels!
junior heron
I'm in a nighreign run, would still be interested in playing but there doesn't seem to be much about today
mental tusk
:0
mint sinew
I'm floating around for the first time in a while, so off to the editor mines while I wait and see
mental tusk
Just in my own match :3
I can run lots of OBL stuff for those interested in fighting some warlords ❤️
topaz jolt
Are you still doing OBL?
mental tusk
I can run it yeah ❤️
mental tusk
Are you still doing OBL?
you still online?
topaz jolt
I have a couple OBL fleets. Someone are really not very good. And they are al before carriers I think?
I'm still here.
I'm just invisible.
mental tusk
I opened a vc just in case xD
topaz jolt
Oh.
mental tusk
<@&942093958551588904>
mental tusk
I'm in a nighreign run, would still be interested in playing but there doesn't s...
game?
junior heron
no thanks, I'm not really interested in OBL.
rigid bison
I'll spectate
wet root
Extremely
Clearly I'll need to spin up PNET[New Players], PNET[Autobalanced], PNET[Competitive], and PNET[Ranked]
topaz jolt
Gosh. My fleet is 25 points over now. Sads.
Honestly. I don't think either ship should have had a cost increase.
Plasma guns should have just been made 5-10 points more expensive.
noble zodiac
the point of the cost increase is to disincentivize hollow builds
increasing the cost of plasmas uh
does not do that
wet root
Yeah, cheap 450 liners being pricier isn't something I'll regret seeing
Especially since the DCX buff directly balances it out
Somewhat surprised to see such a significant gunpods nerf, but I'm not very in-tune with the meta, maybe they see a lot more play than I had realized?
topaz jolt
Sad Intel Monitor noises.
junior heron
this is a big buff for DCX moorline and Jman
now, I refuse to believe anyone was actually running DCX Jman despite all the joking about it in balcon
this is unfortunately a huge nerf for triple DCX monitor
topaz jolt
I'd like DCX to be able to be fitted to the Ocello.
junior heron
and I'd like Small Workshop to provide +100% max repair again
unlikely, Ocellos are already a pain to kill :P
bitter furnace
Sad Intel Monitor noises.
they should be neutral or better than on Main, since EWR went down by 25 and LRT went down by 25 but hull went up by 25. So if you're packing both it's still a buff
quiet quiver
It's a fix to cheap MNs that's just "don't take a MN or LN without DCX" in spirit
If you're any LN or MN build that takes real DC, 55 pts is now too cheap to pass up
I gave my 2 cents in balcon when it was proposed, that I think it doesn't really change the cost efficiency of cheap meat, just raises the minimum meatiness of individual ships
Replacing 350-pt meat MNs with 400-pt ones that each take longer to die
mental tusk
NebFleet Fight Club [NFC] Is having one of it's semi-daily fight nights! Come down and play some PvE, (Or P, if you wanna join the AI) and test out your vanilla or modded builds in a casual setting. New players welcome! 😄 <@&942093958551588904>
gusty imp
I keep missing these because I haven't had the role, should be good for that now
mental tusk
NebFleet Fight Club [NFC] Is having one of it's semi-daily fight nights! Come down and play some PvE, (Or P, if you wanna join the AI) and test out your vanilla or modded builds in a casual setting. New players welcome! 😄 <@&942093958551588904>
mental tusk
Q: would anyone be interested in regular and frequent PvP 3k OBL fight nights on the official OBL servers?
bitter furnace
mint sinew
Jammers not counting as armed is a nice consistency change, but definitely going to trip people up
noble zodiac
wait jammers have counted as armed this entire time ????
mint sinew
Sure have, I've lost games to jam shuttles contesting points before
wary flame
yeah, that's a nice fix
quiet quiver
I always assumed jammers counting as armed was intentional, huh
B/c TBH as long as s1 arming missiles count then a Blanket or Bellbird might as well
mental tusk
I’ll be running some modded PvP/PvE scrims tomorrow @10am in the official nebulous Discord if people want to attend 😄
olive blade
I honestly think the dummy missile thing needs to be fixed
its very gamey and silly
not really sure how you would but
sharp crow
I don't think it's possible
no way to distinguish an arming missile from a "legitimate" one point S1
sharp crow
I don't see why not
olive blade
I mean its not meaningfully fighitng for the point, and its a thing no sane person would put on a ship
it just exists as a weird edge case in the game's rules
sharp crow
I can't really recall the last time I was in a game where the arming missile mattered
like if you're talking about ships that sane people would build, a-cappers in general would qualify as being the same amount of gamey as the arming missile
olive blade
yeah which I think is sorta an issue
related part of it
I think any system is gonna be optimised for
but the goal is to make the outputs a little more reasonable than this
my like 3 seconds of thought proposal would be like
a ship with missiles only becomes a cap capable ship, if its starting offensive missile load is 15% or more of its points, only missiles on ships that become cap capable from this count towards it
ships that started the game unarmed cap at half speed even when uncontested
and see where that leaves things
mint sinew
Percentage values are liable to lead to more confusion
sharp crow
I think you're just going to end up creating new edge cases and not solve any problem you are trying to solve
mint sinew
I'd just drop S1s as cap missiles if you were looking to prevent that. An S2 arming missile (and the vls) costs as much as a real gun
sharp crow
I don't think it's a problem anyway. at least personally I can't recall the last time the arming missile mattered
olive blade
I have had it matter a bunch
sharp crow
simply kill the sprinter
olive blade
I think you're just going to end up creating new edge cases and not solve any pr...
the most likely outcome would be 10pt guns and 1pt of ammo on every cap
which is probably better than now
I have had it matter not on sprinters also
1pt arming missiles on big ships with their mags out capping has won me games
which is part of why I was looking at the % thing
sharp crow
they should have more thoroughly killed your large ship
especially now in the era of planes with bombs for that specific role
olive blade
I mean sure its like always skill issue
its not really a balance issue
its just a particularly weird edge case imo
sharp crow
before the carrier update I would've agreed with you because it was often impossible to fully kill an axford or solomon and that sucked
but I feel like bombs have solved that
quiet quiver
The spicy take (and was talking about this in balcon earlier) is if missiles in general didn't contest like guns did
Missiles tend to either kill ships quickly or not at all, a missile-only ship isn't having to take minutes to slug it out with an opposing capper like light ships with guns do
(Also FTR I also have had arming missiles matter pretty often, as much as I dislike them)
olive blade
I mean I'm amenable to that too
if you have a contested cap and missiles, if you can't slap them with your missiles they probably shouldn't count
wicked mirage
Hey you guys remember the Kinetic missile warhead? The dual purpose one?
oak shell
Pepperidge Farm remembers the Brick Missile
wicked mirage
Pepperidge Farm remembers the Brick Missile
So, since HC chaff can trigger prox fuse warheads but not regular warheads now, I wonder if I can tune an HEI warhead S2H to hit Craft?
It would need an eye watering amount of maneuverability, but there's precedent for something just like this working...
wicked mirage
Do HEI missiles even check for collision with craft?
They sure do! I've had Fighters accidentally ram into missiles they were trying to shoot down for my ships before and explode xD
Bullets also have collision with Craft. You can sometimes shoot down Skiffs and Sundials with 450 if you get lucky lol.
simple drum
So, since HC chaff can trigger prox fuse warheads but not regular warheads now, ...
you need CMD + lock cause other seekers have in built inacuracy to prevent that, unless you want to gamble with each missile, tho i dont know what the chance to hit would be
wicked mirage
you need CMD + lock cause other seekers have in built inacuracy to prevent that,...
Gotcha, alrighty yeah I'll fiddle with it.
glad aurora
EO also works for AN but is eye-wateringly expensive
mint sinew
It's actually even weirder than that. All FCRs have an inaccuracy, up to a few metres, so even a lock isn't reliable.
However the sarissa's fcr has the lowest inaccuracy substantially. So combining a prio target, a sarissa, and a long range CMD S1 HEI you can land hits on bombers pretty well
The Reddit post I stole the idea from: https://www.reddit.com/r/NebulousFleetCommand/s/G0yujXV7v7
I have actually used this in boat nights and it works pretty well against bombers, but I found you were better off with traditional SDM2s against massed fighters
olive blade
kinetic missile was super cool I thought tbh
olive blade
The Reddit post I stole the idea from: https://www.reddit.com/r/NebulousFleetCom...
neat trick!
quiet quiver
you need CMD + lock cause other seekers have in built inacuracy to prevent that,...
Also FYI the built-in accuracy was added because testers thought anti-craft hittles were too reliable and efficient, esp vs bombers
(I disagreed and thought anti-craft hittles should stay in)
glad aurora
I made mine with HEKP when Sumikae first discovered it
They were glorious little things
noble zodiac
lmao
wicked mirage
It's actually even weirder than that. All FCRs have an inaccuracy, up to a few m...
Gotcha, yeah that matches what another person told me tonight when I talked to them about the idea lol
Interesting ^^
simple drum
Also FYI the built-in accuracy was added *because* testers thought anti-craft hi...
ii did personally know this, mostly cause i have seen some discusion about it in the testers channel recently, tho i wasnt around for carrier testing
quiet quiver
The worst part was when it was first added it was set to like 50m and missiles were missing shuttles more often than hitting
simple drum
Oh i didnt hear about that, thats hilarious
azure lake
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/409638848302153732/1379965696968228974/im...
ill give him 3m/s base move speed, he seems like he needs it
misty storm
I have actually used this in boat nights and it works pretty well against bomber...
ok but how do you determine what missile the pd controller shoots when you z-prio something
quiet quiver
If it has a defensive missile that matches the target, it shoots that. Otherwise dark magic and/or best guesses happen
misty storm
i see
quiet quiver
Pikes, Halberds, and Sundials are size 1, Tantos and Cudas are size 2
supple sonnetBOT
So what, S1 is Utility, S2 is Fighter, S3 is Bomber?
quiet quiver
As PD targets, yeah basically
dark dawn
Yay!
I have not really been following the PTB, so I just know that there's Craft Modules now, and I have no idea if they're any good
wet root
Aaaaand of course the manual decoys/emcon on craft made it in, bleurgh
glad aurora
kind of busted, actually
wicked mirage
The rise of giga planes drenched in gold (points) shall commence, I like the modules xD
wicked mirage
Aaaaand of course the manual decoys/emcon on craft made it in, bleurgh
Isn't that a good thing? I really like that I can force my Fighters to actually engage SDM-2's instead of trying to dodge.
glad aurora
Aaaaand of course the manual decoys/emcon on craft made it in, bleurgh
zero chance they wouldn't, people get salty as fuck about potentially ever losing their vision for some reason
tulip vault
yeah I'm real unhappy about manual craft countermeasures
wicked mirage
yeah I'm real unhappy about manual craft countermeasures
How come?
junior heron
why?
wet root
Isn't that a good thing? I really like that I can force my Fighters to actually ...
I'm extremely unhappy with it, the main reason I enjoy Neb is that it tends to avoid high-micro gameplay - if I feel like doing fast-paced micro, Blink Stalkers or Warp Prism micro (or playing Chen or Meepo) is frankly a lot more engaging than going down the softkill checklist
tulip vault
I am not super on board with optimal play requiring even more fiddly micro than it does, especially given how hard furballs are to read as-is
dark dawn
Yeah, this kind of thing is either going to be worse than the AI (read: useless), or better than the AI (read: mandatory)
wicked mirage
I'm extremely unhappy with it, the main reason I enjoy Neb is that it tends to a...
@tulip vault The default settings make them act the same as before short of automatically engaging SDM-2's. This just gives more buttons for players to use if they want it's not mandatory.
wicked mirage
Yeah, this kind of thing is either going to be worse than the AI (read: useless)...
I don't think so, I think it's a solid "meh" unless you have a specific purpose in mind that requires a setting to be toggled
wary flame
I need to check if SCRAM + high-coherence chaff still totally ruins ship-to-craft missiles, since I haven't seen anyone talking about it
when Pyrope and I tested it we got what, two kills out of eighteen SDMs, only because the planes run out of chaff?
wicked mirage
I need to check if SCRAM + high-coherence chaff still totally ruins ship-to-craf...
It does unfortunately
I brought it up but nothing came of it
wet root
I'm... pretty skeptical that it will actually be optional for using craft effectively, given how required it is for ships
wary flame
OK, strike Jman party time
wet root
Frankly, if it weren't useful, it shouldn't have been added, and if it is useful, then it's required for optimal play
wicked mirage
I don't agree with that mindset Lark
dark dawn
I don't think so, I think it's a solid "meh" unless you have a specific purpose ...
I mean, okay
It might be there just to placate the people who think they can do better than the AI
I know Nebulous's playerbase, and I have Opinions™️ on them
wary flame
to be fair, they usually can
pretty sure me and pyrope managed to at least use this setting to outperform auto evasion against ACMs in like fifteen minutes
wary flame
yeah, and the improvement is "equip the good chaff, then put them on SCRAM and leave them there" rather than "actively micro them against each incoming lightspeed missile"
wicked mirage
Yeah it's not like you have to be a StarCraft player lol
wary flame
doing a huge line of The Good Chaff before deploying on my third mission of the day
wicked mirage
when Pyrope and I tested it we got what, two kills out of eighteen SDMs, only be...
On the bright side I've heard multiple folks saying for some reason it doesn't work as well in a live game as it does in testing range, so hopefully it won't be too bad.
wary flame
presumably you don't always have the ability to conveniently turn 180 for 30 seconds on live
but I still want to try it
glad aurora
very, very few things about craft have ever worked as well in a live game as in test range
junior heron
I imagine a "default craft settings panel" will be added eventually too, alongside the PD one