#Nebulous: Fleet Command

1 messages · Page 28 of 1

sharp crow
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maybe if they make hekp a lot cheaper in return

olive blade
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its OSPs turn to have stupid bowtanking

wet root
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Sure, nerf the front pancake stack so front hits go right into the broadside, or whatnot, I don't care if they can't bowtank

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I just abhor dealing with Broadside Liner Micro

wet root
sharp crow
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if ANS is supposed to be the missile faction then a hekp buff would be most thematic, I think

astral pumice
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okay, finally completed all the tutorial

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god, this game is so cool

tulip vault
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I will say the hammerhead liners do still very much suffer from the Secret Point ™️ at which you can take one missile and instantly structure break

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oh btw one bit of tech (that ash & gold already found), you want to alternate the plasma and 100mm mounts

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because if your nose gets chewed off in a fight it's better if you're still able to do both rather than just one

astral pumice
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okay, I'm starting to get how radar, jammer, and missiles work

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the missile editor is... crazy

oak shell
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It is, yeah

astral pumice
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I'm just gonna say, it's worth the price just for the missile editor, and now smallcraft editor

oak shell
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I do recommend getting some games in before trying to learn every mechanic. You can play vs. the AI, fly TF Oak and have a fine time

astral pumice
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yup!

wet root
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But it's probably a good idea tp maintain at least some plas capability

tulip vault
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yeah ime it's really for like, the second fight you take

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having plasma capability left once you've already chewed through an axford pair or a BB is real nice

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or being able to retain some if you eat a beam/missiles

tulip vault
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<@&942093958551588904> anyone feel like some pubulous?

misty storm
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Perhaps

sharp crow
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I'm almost out of a dota game, 5 mins

glad aurora
#

Amusingly enough, I just booted the game

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I'm down

sharp crow
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I'm good to go

glad aurora
#

which server we stacking

sharp crow
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I'll grab a drink and be in voice

tulip vault
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we are in eri 3

supple sonnetBOT
#

Can I join the evil conga line?

glad aurora
#

probably, yeah

topaz jolt
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I can try too. Though I'll need to warm up and have some foods today.

sharp crow
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I only had the one game in me

topaz jolt
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It's okayy

astral pumice
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hmmm, okay, playing TF Oak feels soooooo slow

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you are also basically blind even without getting jammed

mint sinew
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Being slow and blind is kinda the Neb experience

astral pumice
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this feels like playing Assault mech in MWO all over again, think I will try improve my skill with lighter and faster vessels

quiet quiver
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Everything is kinda blind

mint sinew
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Did you play 1v1s or a 4v4? Having allied sensors makes a huge difference

astral pumice
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played a 2v2 with AI

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having friends really make a huge difference

quiet quiver
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Yee, and the general standard is 4v4, or 5v5 on big maps

mint sinew
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2v2 on Cliff is a great learning space too

astral pumice
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but the heavy cruiser still feels sooo slow to position behind asteroid, even the starting turn around take like literal minute

mint sinew
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Yeah, that's the Neb tempo alright. Wait until you try and 180 a Solomon (battleship)

astral pumice
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hahah

mint sinew
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After some adjustment it's kind of nice to have a game where you pay for your mistakes from 5 minutes ago, but it's generally obvious what those were

quiet quiver
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Especially if it's raider-whiplash-whiplash BB, a drive setup with two turn maluses

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Stats said like a 500 second time to 180

astral pumice
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jesus

quiet quiver
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Yeah I run raider-dragonfly-whiplash in my BBs

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Which has a net bonus to turn

azure lake
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The bb is very slow

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It's great

astral pumice
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okay, I think the test fire area need to be more clear on the data it can provide you

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I know there's console command to see enemy's stats and also move them, but it would be nice if the devs make changes to it

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I also just want to blow things up and it would be nice to see them more clearly

mint sinew
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There is a command to make everything visible too

astral pumice
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yes but I want it to be like, a one click option to make testing things easy

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but eh, it's early access

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guess it will take a while

mint sinew
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Seeing enemy DC boards is also a common request for the testing range, so you can get a better idea of impact on target

astral pumice
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yeah!

runic torrent
astral pumice
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okay, I found my calling now

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light cruisers are so much more fun to play than heavy cruiser

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just an AI match just holding down a point to cap and we basically won by points even when the enemy team pummeled us to hell

quiet quiver
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Light cruisers are a bunch of fun

astral pumice
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now to figure out how to make my idea of a CL fleet

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the 250mm guns are good, but against heavily armoured ship, it's not gonna be enough if they get too close

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also, no bloody reinforced CIC on any of these things

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so I think I will remove one the CL and shove in missiles and maybe a scout corvette in

azure lake
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The monitor is the closest and 250 AP should be ok iirc

astral pumice
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those monitors mauled me :c

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got too close

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I could avoid the fight by running away, but I was already in the cap circle and we are winning by cap sooo

arctic magnet
quiet quiver
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It's high but not Solly level

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MNs I think are 48 cm and BBs are 56 cm

tulip vault
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250 AP I think technically does hurt monitors but not very quickly and not very deep

azure lake
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Having a few torps in the back slot for monitors used to work pretty well, unsure how good it's now

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I've not touched CLs in a while

oak shell
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I've been wanting an instastage HEKP design for anti-monitor duty, does anyone have one that works?

glad aurora
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Yes*, but it's meant for ISCL work and uses some weird jank with penaids and backup seekers to get around jamming

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I don't think it'd work against PD in small backpack salvo sizes

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If you want it for monitors specifically, I've got nothing else to do this morning so I could probably work something up

glad aurora
lime jungleBOT
# glad aurora

Fleet 'Double CL' is composed of 3 ships that cost 3000 points:

Setup and Sigh : 'Vauxhall' class Light Cruiser [Gun Missile PD]
          Kilt : 'Vauxhall' class Light Cruiser [Gun Missile PD]
The Wary Haven : 'Sprinter' class Corvette [EWar PD]
```This fleet uses 4 different missile types:
```yaml
      SGM-101 Hobgoblin : DIRECT - PSV(WAKE) - HE SHAPED [1pts]
         SGM-H-2 Sunray : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR)/[ARAD(RADAR)] - HE FRAG [12pts]
 SGM-H-237 Aimless SouI : CRUISE - ACT(RADAR)/[ARAD(RADAR)] - HE SHAPED [15pts]
SGM-H-395 Guillotine-KP : DIRECT - PSV(EO)/ACT(RADAR) - HEKP [52pts]
double_CL.png
glad aurora
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@oak shell just grab the Guillotines off here, they're 3km instastage

oak shell
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Thanks!

glad aurora
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They sometimes miss their targets because I have them set up to juke AMMs with their terminals, but eh, that's just how it goes

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jamming from start to end

887570_20250124120130_1.png
night fable
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It's Friday, and that means it's time for more Friday Night NEBULOUS: Fleet Command! I'm hosting open multiplayer lobbies on my Twitch channel below, right now!
https://www.twitch.tv/docvivileandra <@&942093958551588904>

Twitch
DocViviLeandra - Twitch

Friday Night Fleet Command! Open multiplayer lobbies with viewers! Join the discord for access to voice chat - !discord

▶ Play video
azure delta
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vastly better fleet than whatever i was doing before or similar. still pretty wonky overall in function, but i like it! i mostly need to practice using the various disparate elements like the EWAR, locks, and missiles more.

📎 Patrol_-_Light_Brigade.fleet
lime jungleBOT
# azure delta vastly better fleet than whatever i was doing before or similar. still pretty w...

Fleet 'Patrol - Light Brigade' is composed of 5 ships that cost 3000 points:

        Coy Snake : 'Keystone' class Destroyer [PD Beam]
       Airy Paint : 'Raines' class Frigate [Gun PD]
    Sin and Photo : 'Raines' class Frigate [Gun PD]
Lida O. Marybella : 'Sprinter' class Corvette [Missile PD]
            Thumb : 'Raines' class Frigate [EWar PD Sensor]
```This fleet uses 4 different missile types:
```yaml
   SGM-112 Buckler : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR) - HE FRAG [2pts]
     SGM-130 Knife : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR) - HE SHAPED [2pts]
  SGM-H-300 Atlatl : CRUISE - PSV(EO)/ACT(RADAR) - HE SHAPED [38pts]
SGT-322 Polehammer : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR)/[PSV(WAKE)] - HE SHAPED [10pts]
Patrol_-_Light_Brigade.png
azure delta
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the sprinter is probably my favorite piece of that.

mint sinew
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That's a lot of points on PD and DC for almost no offensive output. I'd be concerned about my impact on non-carrier games

glad aurora
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A charitable interpretation is that this is supposed to be distributed, as a take on a capfleet of some description

errant crow
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Some of the drive selections seem unorthodox to me, but I took a several big-patch break from this game

astral pumice
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oh that double CL fleet looks really goood, exactly what I'm looking for!

glad aurora
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Aimless Souls are cruise missiles designed to pick off light ships across the map (like when they're trying to take a capture point), Guillotines have 3km actual range and should be used a lot like expensive torps, and Sunrays are anti-skiff missiles meant to take down OSP radar spotters

also the sprinter has a Whiplash so you can have it on FULL while the CLs are on FLANK and thereby avoid quickly burning out its thrusters

think that's the only non-intuitive bits

bitter furnace
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don't like the fight you're in? You can leave! Hit da bricks! Go zoom over to another fight that's more favourable

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I still prefer heavier ships myself though, just because they're a bit less stressful to play for me, they don't crumple immediately if you make a positioning mistake

glad aurora
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I'm a complete CL addict, I just tend to also strap 2300pts of missile to them

astral pumice
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what is the hobgoblin for?

glad aurora
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ceremonial arming missile

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it's got a little sign that says "NEVER FIRE THIS" glued onto it and it allows you to contest points with the sprinter as if you were armed

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because you technically have an offensive weapon

astral pumice
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ahhhh

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wait you need offensive weapon to cap point?

glad aurora
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no, but something which does have an offensive weapon will override you in priority if you don't

astral pumice
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ohhh

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hmm, okay I loaded in the fleet, why does the second CL has erm, not enough power?

glad aurora
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spyglass takes a lot of power

fortunately modules will just automatically turn off in order of priority (plus sign next to the power thing gives you a breakdown) when you'd be over power

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so if you have all four Defenders on the CL firing at once, the DCC and one ammo elevator lose power

wet root
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It's pretty common to be over 100% power on some ships, since you only need power for e.g. PD while firing it

glad aurora
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otherwise, when 0-3 PD turrets are firing, it's a-ok

wet root
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You don't really care if you lose some of your buff modules for a few seconds while your PD guns turn on

astral pumice
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ah okay

wet root
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Btw, you might want to look at cruise missile/carrier gameplay as well, they solve the big ship difficulty of being slow to reposition by having a lot of standoff power

astral pumice
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in exchange for immediately getting screwd if anyone actually see you

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if of course

wet root
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There are some options for that, but in general yeah

glad aurora
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simply stick two beams on the front

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or one beam underneath, depending

wet root
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I have a couple missile fleets that use 3x DDs as a chassis, it means you get a few less missiles but lets you go around beaming stuff in the lategame once you've exhausted your payload

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And missile Axford with a belly beam is a thing, as Ash And Gold alluded to

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(Also, a salvo of instastage hybrids does wonders for deleting ships that happen upon you, though it won't help against craft or hostile missiles)

glad aurora
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2x beam DD is my current pure-cruise fleet, it slaps people real well when they pop around your hiding rock

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Does it have any PD? Absolutely not

azure delta
azure delta
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so probably don't look to me for things which are optimal >.>

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...I do think that little PD corvette is pretty decent, though.

wary flame
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I have had to recalibrate my Axford gameplay because I can no longer get away with going double greedford and gluing myself to the 7.2km range marker while just barely sliding out of the way of every incoming 450 round

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now you actually need to do things other than figure out how to use every mount on your ship simultaneously

rigid bison
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OSP now has long range strike capability (again)

glad aurora
wary flame
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that was the old tactic too, but I am rarely in stacks good enough to feel reliably safe without Actual PD

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I've been very impressed with the SDM frigate performance against my Journeyman, I need a doctrine for punching anti-light strikes through the standard sarissa + 40 SDM config

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it will probably need more flechette fighters than I'd prefer

glad aurora
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I don't think there is one as a jman

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as a moorline you just bunch 12 together and run at it and then it dies

wary flame
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that or I push it down with an MMT with a fighter escort on top of it

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new doctrine needed

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there are so many gun sprinters and support frigates around these days that it might pay to run a wedge of pure gun tugs

glad aurora
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please bring pure gun tugs, my sprinter bombers need more targets

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the capwar must become more fucked

mint sinew
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I've been seeing returns from sneaking gun shuttles into the backline to hunt down sdm frigs. A lot of people aren't even loading a single anti ship strike

glad aurora
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They usually don't have the prog channels for it

mint sinew
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Gun tug wings are probably going to find prey

glad aurora
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Defensive missiles don't use prog channels, so any channels beyond the base (which won't really hurt a ship which is actively drfending itself) are just dead weight in the usual use case

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and they're, what, 30pts for 1 in a 2x2 / 50pts for 2 in a 3x3?

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Expensive

junior heron
# 
+PUBLIC TEST BRANCH+

Changes/Features:
Decreased missile capacity of Pike S1 missile pylons to 2 (was 4).
Updated bomb trail colors so they don't look like hybrids.
Added a dedicated server admin !skipmap command.
SALS and TALS launchers will now do a cold launch if firing from the neutral position because the target is out of arc.
Made many optimizations to reduce per-frame memory allocation substantially.
Improved performance of all passive missile seekers.
Improved performance of sensor acquisition cycles with spatial partitioning.
Decreased 100mm Flak damage to 20 (was 30).
DC teams will now prioritize consuming restores from non-reinforced and low-DT lockers first.
Weapons drawing ammo from magazines will now prioritize non-reinforced magazines followed by those with the highest starting quantity of the desired ammo.
Increased max depression limit for Solomon BB MT1 to -2 degrees (was 0).
Reduced dust particle density on Canyon.

Bug Fixes:
Fixed craft not checking for correct aspect on missile targets.
Fixed being able to vote-kick server administrators.
Fixed players being able to cancel dedicated server debrief end by changing their ready state when the !enddebrief command had been used.
Fixed Vauxhall MT5 being too high.
Fixed bomb trail VFX being culled when still inside camera frustum.
Fixed AI ships not approaching a target they were ordered to scout if there was an unobstructed view but it was out of range.
Fixed white highlight circles remaining in space if a track was lost was hovered with the mouse.
Fixed craft cruise distance remaining display not accounting for if HBRN was on.
Fixed missile seekers being pulled off targets by signatures which have had their radius increased by a modifier.```
wet root
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I just noticed the last bug fix, no more stealing ARAD missiles from across the map as a MDLN

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Fixed being able to vote-kick server administrators.
Finally, I may operate with impugnity

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(I'm launching the server on main branch still since I don't think we want to swap to test 16 hours before boat night)

mint sinew
wet root
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Huh, I thought they had their own unique sensors that didn't care about radar sigs

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To arm that is

mint sinew
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Yes, but if you ran a corvette in you could redirect all the mines to the much larger, out of range BB with a rail

wet root
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Ah, gotcha, makes sense

quiet quiver
junior heron
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so what's the difference between the 35mm Flechette and Slug?
Slugs are cheaper per unit, and do more damage
Does the flechette have a bigger AoE?

glad aurora
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yes

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flechette >>>>>>

olive blade
runic torrent
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<@&942093958551588904> openedthe channels o/

olive blade
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a pair is pretty effective I have found

sharp crow
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I'll be around shortly

wary flame
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likewise

olive blade
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ditto

junior heron
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i'll be on soon

wet root
#

I'll be a bit, should be there for game 2 at the latest though

sly glade
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I'm in the airport sorry

olive blade
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perfect place for it

sharp crow
#

play neb on airplane wifi

sly glade
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No

worthy bane
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one frame per hour

junior heron
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@astral pumice this is the usual time for weekly in-house games, you'll need the role to see the channels, but if you'd like to join you're free to

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@misty storm you here?

sharp crow
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<@&942093958551588904> last call before we start game 1

warm gulch
#

how long would a first game be

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i might just throw myself in even though i forgot half the game

junior heron
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20-45 minutes

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approximately 1 game, give or take 1 game

warm gulch
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okay yeah i can do that, fuck it

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i'll hop in vc but gimme a sec to get tea and stuff

glad aurora
lime jungleBOT
misty storm
lime jungleBOT
# misty storm

Fleet 'Greedfords' is composed of 2 ships that cost 3000 points:

Punk Golem : 'Axford' class Heavy Cruiser [Gun PD Sensor]
Giant Free : 'Axford' class Heavy Cruiser [Gun PD Sensor]
```This fleet uses 2 different missile types:
```yaml
          SDM-111 Ranseur : DIRECT - CMD - HE FRAG [9pts]
SGM-171 Tribble Container : DIRECT - PSV(WAKE) - HE SHAPED [1pts]
Greedfords.png
sharp crow
#

carriers are truly so much fun

wet root
#

Fun graph of server utilization over the course of a match

image.png
sharp crow
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if only it wasn't throwing to bring more than two

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unless you're all jmanning

olive blade
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yeah lol

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might need to alternate carrier games between people or something

astral pumice
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I can't even imagine what might happen in single player campaign mode, where the point system might get its back breaking wide open

rigid bison
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(it's all 6ks and 12ks)

wet root
#

I suspect that's part of why conquest was scrapped, very hard to balance a gamemode where you can roll in with 30k of missile boats, wipe the opfor with a salvo, and trundle off to do that another 16 times

glad aurora
#

the only reasonably definitive thing I've heard on conquest fleet comp was an allusion to "BBs with 60 decoy S3H"

olive blade
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yeah I think beyond a certain point you also run into like

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just what peoples computers can handle

wet root
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Yeah, that's a major issue with those occasional 10v10 games people have hosted

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I suspect they're completely untenable now that carriers are out, unfortunately

wet root
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Anyone know what the damage rays on bombs are? I've heard both 75 and 80

glad aurora
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KBU-15 is 75, KBU-22 is 100

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off the top of my head.

wet root
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Ahhhh gotcha

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Tyty

quiet quiver
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The one I saw started at like 30% tidi and was like a two hour vid

errant crow
past light
tulip vault
#

Tbh I think the conquest setup had a lot of potential (other than the exceedingly fucked travel time issues)…. If it wasn’t meant to be a cool framework for an rts

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Like honestly I would play a game that was what conquest in the devlogs was panning out to be if it was just ‘autoresolve: fleet command’

quiet quiver
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AIUI the one sided battles weren’t so much of an issue, as seeing what you could pull out of a doomed fight was one of the cooler things testers did

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It was the big decisive deathball vs deathball fights that were an issue

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The only thing that could fight a dozen Solomons was either another dozen Solomons or an overwhelming pile of hybrids

sharp crow
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<@&942093958551588904> sunday pubulous, anyone?

wet root
#

I'd be up for it in 30 minutes, so probably game 2

rigid bison
sharp crow
#

I got hekp'd in my hammerheads. it's back again

glad aurora
#

😌

rigid bison
#

ate a hekp missile in my brick, can confirm that it's back

glad aurora
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I've surrender CL'd enough people that they're resorting to hybrids once again... nature is healing

sharp crow
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I gotta make an OSP capfleet at some point

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and practice that playstyle

misty storm
#

does anyone have a good post carriers escort frigate for a axford? i want a single axford fleet but i dont really like double railstones

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trying to dial this in. any suggestions?

lime jungleBOT
# misty storm

Fleet 'Axford + Escorts' is composed of 4 ships that cost 2969 points:

Windy Pearl : 'Axford' class Heavy Cruiser [Gun PD Missile EWar Sensor]
 Scrub Leek : 'Raines' class Frigate [PD Missile Gun]
  Hex Ranch : 'Raines' class Frigate [PD Missile Gun]
 Saute Fall : 'Sprinter' class Corvette [Gun Sensor EWar]
```This fleet uses 2 different missile types:
```yaml
          SDM-225 Tornado : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR)/PSV(WAKE) - HE FRAG [4pts]
SGM-171 Tribble Container : DIRECT - PSV(WAKE) - HE SHAPED [1pts]
Axford__Escorts.png
misty storm
lime jungleBOT
# misty storm got it to 3000 pts

Fleet 'Axford + Escorts' is composed of 4 ships that cost 3000 points:

Windy Pearl : 'Axford' class Heavy Cruiser [Gun PD Missile EWar Sensor]
Solid Value : 'Raines' class Frigate [PD Missile Gun]
  Above Zap : 'Raines' class Frigate [PD Missile Gun]
  Five Plus : 'Sprinter' class Corvette [Gun Sensor EWar]
```This fleet uses 3 different missile types:
```yaml
   SDM-220 Naginata M7R-X : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR)/PSV(WAKE) - HE FRAG [5pts]
        SGM-1 Repo Freeze : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR) - HE FRAG [2pts]
SGM-171 Tribble Container : DIRECT - PSV(WAKE) - HE SHAPED [1pts]
Axford__Escorts.png
wet root
#

@junior heron this is the damage I was extremely confused about during that match btw

image.png
#

If we were playing against OSP I'd assume gunpod bombers, but I have no idea what did this from ANS

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Note the 4 crits in each compartment as well

glad aurora
#

That looks like a missile hit

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Dumped all its damage into those two components

wet root
#

Must've been

mint sinew
#

Or a beam

wet root
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Wasn't a beam, and they tend to wander around more anyway

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I suppose a torp with a hit at just the right angle that all the rays went into only those two guns, I'd just thought their damage cone was wide enough it'd hit the neighbors on the far side

quiet quiver
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That layout has a lot of empty space right beside those guns, and I don't remember where exactly the modules are but they're small-ish and could be missed

olive blade
#

at an angle that doesn't clip opposite guns

misty storm
#

For a vauxhall centric fleet, is 3 vauxes better or is it still 2 vaux 2 sprinter?

glad aurora
#

I prefer triple Vaux, but I've gotten decent work out of the utility you can get from having missile backpacks on 2 vauxes.

misty storm
lime jungleBOT
# misty storm i just noodled this out

Fleet 'Vauxhalls + Escorts' is composed of 4 ships that cost 3000 points:

Mark The Time : 'Vauxhall' class Light Cruiser [Gun PD]
    Sad Clunk : 'Vauxhall' class Light Cruiser [Gun PD]
   Alike Skim : 'Sprinter' class Corvette [Missile Sensor EWar]
  Fatal Drama : 'Sprinter' class Corvette [Missile Sensor EWar]
```This fleet uses only one missile type:
```yaml
SDM-220 Naginata M7R-X : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR)/PSV(WAKE) - HE FRAG [5pts]
Vauxhalls__Escorts.png
glad aurora
#

You need some kind of comms jamming. I'd also bring a few ADs since you have room on the Sprinters to do so.

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also: 4AEs

misty storm
#

so like

#

swap a blanket for a hangup or fit in an intteruption?

lime jungleBOT
# misty storm like this

Fleet 'Vauxhalls + Escorts' is composed of 4 ships that cost 3000 points:

 Elite Pong : 'Vauxhall' class Light Cruiser [Gun PD]
Solar Chill : 'Vauxhall' class Light Cruiser [Gun PD]
Fixed Chess : 'Sprinter' class Corvette [Missile Sensor EWar]
  Own Brush : 'Sprinter' class Corvette [Missile Sensor EWar]
```This fleet uses only one missile type:
```yaml
SDM-220 Naginata M7R-X : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR)/PSV(WAKE) - HE FRAG [5pts]
Vauxhalls__Escorts.png
glad aurora
#

Yeah, looks much better.

misty storm
#

ok

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thanks

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i know you get a crossfix if you do two elint sources, but dont you get something even better with 3?

glad aurora
#

Not that I know of.

misty storm
#

ah, ok

wet root
wet root
misty storm
#

whats a good replacement for the rocket shuttles on this starter fleet? im fine with them still being shuttles, i just dont really like the rocket shttle gameplay

📎 Wulfenite_Squadron.fleet
lime jungleBOT
# misty storm whats a good replacement for the rocket shuttles on this starter fleet? im fine ...

Fleet 'Wulfenite Squadron' is composed of 4 ships that cost 3000 points:

Black Swan Event : 'Journeyman' class Light Carrier [Gun PD]
Free Real Estate : 'Marauder' class Line Ship [Gun PD Sensor]
    In Your Base : 'Ferryman' class Clipper [Rocket PD]
   In Your Walls : 'Ferryman' class Clipper [Rocket PD]
```This fleet uses 2 different missile types:
```yaml
SGM-122 Nechako III : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR) - HE FRAG [2pts]
 SGM-151 Sechelt II : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR) - HE FRAG [2pts]
Wulfenite_Squadron.png
oak shell
#

My usual shuttle setup is 2 T20s and a chaff box

#

That might not be effective with the new craft meta, though

#

I want to try one T20 and two pavise

misty storm
#

alright

mint sinew
#

T20, pavise, chaff box is an old standby that still works. You should be able to get 3 for the price of those rocket shuttles

misty storm
#

ok

bitter furnace
#

Alternatively if you want to go with the same vibe of team support, you could replace them with a Draugr that has an LRT or EWR to assist the team with sensors, those systems are always useful and in demand

misty storm
#

hrm

#

anyone have a levy thats on the cheaper side? i wanna do a fleet thats levy + vauxhall + other stuff possibly

#

maybeeeeee ~1500 pts?

#

the 2000 point one in the starter fleets is a tad much

wet root
runic torrent
#

yess

misty storm
#

how much does a typical levy run?

glad aurora
#

capfleet levy 1200-1500

#

double levy 1500 (natch)

#

single levy 2000-2.4k (anything above that is a bad single levy)

misty storm
#

ok

#

can you feasibly stick bobmers on a journeyman?

mint sinew
#

A small complement. 2 large pads limits how big of a strike you can launch

#

My cap support jman has a wing of 4 to remove problems for my cappers

wet root
# 
Hotfix - 0.5.2.4:250127-2339

Bug Fixes:
- Fixed stationary object signatures (e.g. chaff) not being detectable if they were recycled into the same octree leaf they were in during their previous use.
#

Bit of an oopsie in the patch

olive blade
#

Is the strike craft display thing working properly now?

wet root
#

I don't believe so

astral pumice
#

ah, I just spectateced some matches to learn a thing or two and it's like

#

yeah I can see why people want to play this because it feels incredibly good when you see you entire barrage of rockets or container missiles slamming into a ship

junior heron
#

or when you get a perfect beam ambush
or when you split your strikecraft who are being chased into two groups, then have one come around from the loop and kill the chaser

wet root
#

I'm partial to the quiet satisfaction of stepping around the rain in an Ocello

#

Or a well-plotted cruise strike curving around a rock to the perfect stage location

quiet quiver
#

Carrier update concept art thread!

wet root
#

Oooh

astral pumice
#

also it's like erm

#

i know the protectorate is the 'harder to play' faction

#

which mean if someone do player protectorate, it's probably a veteran players

#

but I basically watched a bunch of fights and the OSP won all of them?

mint sinew
#

OSP has done quite well out of the carrier update. For my money it's that ANS has ended up in the spot that OSP has historically been in where things the average player wants to play isn't the core element the team needs to win. This means it's very easy to just end up with not enough frontline/cap elements and you just lose

#

The "new/returning players just want to play ANS" is also present too, but fading as I'm seeing more vets intentionally unstacking lobbies or setting handicaps

astral pumice
#

ahhh

bitter furnace
#

several possible reasons, probably a little of each

  • Carriers have thrown a big wrench into the works and Alliance needs to figure out how best to respond, moreso than Protectorate does since the Protectorate has the stronger voidcraft arsenal
  • Alliance has historically been able to roll over Protectorate without much effort, so people playing them aren't used to closely coordinating their team compositions, but now things are much more even
  • Alliance is more attractive to new players due to the wet navy aesthetics, so Protectorate teams have more veteran players on average
  • Protectorate perhaps did legitimately come out of the update with stronger tools that now need post-release adjustment
astral pumice
#

does protectorate really has the stronger voidcraft?

#

I heard it was something like, ANS has stronger interceptor that can eat smallcraft alive, but OSP has stronger bombers

bitter furnace
#

Yeah, the OSP craft are generally more capable in a dogfight, though for fighter vs fighter the biggest determiner is who brought the better missiles for the situation

#

if it's guns only, the Barracuda will eat the Tanto alive. As it should, the Alliance is bringing aircraft to a void fight

astral pumice
#

ahhh

wet root
#

Coilguns change the equations but they also double the cost of the craft

wet root
astral pumice
#

maybe it just takes time to adjust

#

but it does seem to be like ANS needs some more dedicated anti-smallcraft/missile designs

sharp crow
#

the 80 sdm box can do a good job zoning

#

flechette cudas are pretty good against shooting stuff headed straight for them though which is a bummer

wary flame
#

They're really good at messing up light strike journeymen, I'll tell you that much

#

I'm thinking about shuffling stuff around on the multirole Moorline to make some R2 boxes optimised purely for SDM box hunting, although that requires aggressive cruise corking due to sarisssas

tulip vault
#

At the very least, it’s what others have said, that the simple stuff is good on OSP right now and therefore not good on ANS

tulip vault
#

Protectorate pickets felt really scuffed pre-patch, and I really like the role the cheap J-Man fills, especially because you can also put a little bit of like, bombs or something in it to get your own finisher weapon

astral pumice
#

like, an entire squadron of halberd for PD?

sharp crow
#

35mm cudas with jammers and flechette ammo

#

can mess up a lot of missiles

astral pumice
#

ahhh

#

I assume the 650 points comes from just making the PD jman carrying only one squadron and basically nothing else because that's so little point

olive blade
#

I do feel like a lot of ans teams have kinda got away with doing whatever in the past

#

while osp has had a very narrow range of effective strategies

#

and now I think ANS has a lot of similar limitations

sly glade
#

Yeah turns out having the best missiles and best gunships was a big deal when missiles and gunships were the only ways of fighting, and the OSP had to be weird and creative to even try and close that gap

tulip vault
#

But not enough to fit all 15 with the fancy pd loadout, so it’s effectively 10 fancy pd fighters and then a bit of other stuff

#

Honestly halberds are just too expensive and too slow to really do the job I need for my liners

sharp crow
#

I think the eo cheatvision pike is also pretty good

tulip vault
#

I honestly don’t know how those work

sharp crow
#

now that missile cam is gone being able to get a visual at like 7km? range is great

#

you set them to acquire target and then you a) get a near perfect track and b) get a visual

runic torrent
#

Oh they removed missile cam?

#

Always hated those

sharp crow
#

yep

runic torrent
#

So so gamey

sharp crow
#

you still see pd firing in the void of course but there's only so much you can know from that

tulip vault
#

I have just fully not been using them right

#

That does sound really good

sharp crow
#

you have to do it with the shift click context menu thing I think

#

I couldn't find another way to get it to do it either

#

and you need a direct line of sight ofcourse because you are literally looking at the enemy ship

tulip vault
#

Yeah

#

I’m surprised it’s a good track and not a goddawful visual one tbh

#

That sounds kinda crazy strong

sharp crow
#

lark included a couple in the hammerhead list and they're so good

junior heron
#

I've been enjoying using the EO Pike as spotters for the Box Boat

tulip vault
#

I might take some on my escort jman then, dang

sharp crow
#

what I think also works but haven't tried myself

#

is that you can EO look at winard crossfixes

#

which just sounds crazy good to me

#

EO pikes do need a radar track to look at so it doesn't quite counter jamming entirely

junior heron
#

yeah, I've been comboing them with the advanced radar skiff

sharp crow
#

yeah and I think ans needs to have to S2H to throw at those

wary flame
#

the modern version of missile cam is the EACT HEI container with giga range

#

because when your act seeker picks something up you get a nice line giving you the exact location of whatever random radar sig your container has acquired

#

you don't get visual but I've found good targets with that

#

in that Tombstones game I managed to smack a destroyer around by tagging it with a search box and then following up with rockets along that vector

wary flame
# sharp crow is that you can EO look at winard crossfixes

hilariously it doesn't care where the crossfix is relative to the target ship, so if you have two wings of one skiff each on guard order around your pike or vice versa, you can fly the pike around and tell it to look at the hilariously inaccurate crossfix

#

and it will snap to target, fly to the right range and get you an EO track even if the crossfix was literally off by 180 degrees

sharp crow
#

that's really goofy

tulip vault
#

All I can imagine now is a guild navigator inside the pikes getting so high they randomly guess exactly where the target is off the world’s worst crossfix

wary flame
#

the team I'm in for the upcoming tourney is "the guild"

#

we have a logo and everything

sharp crow
#

he shall know your flightpaths as though born to them

wary flame
#

I cannot confirm or deny whether we have spyglass frigates over Arrakis

sharp crow
#

I wish I could play in that tournament but like half of the possible brackets would be impossible for me to be awake for

wary flame
#

haven't actually tried the crossfix precognition build in a game because having three individual wings of 1 craft each flying around as my scout units is just infuriating

#

I would rather just rock the adradar skiffs

#

but in theory it works

quiet quiver
#

Who else is on the team?

sharp crow
#

misc if you win, loan me your plush aircraft so I can pose vinny with it

tulip vault
#

The tournament does seem fun (and this one also seems better run) but it is also just so much time to commit to

tulip vault
wary flame
#

we are going Diotor Mode, we just want to get a few laughs and maybe a couple of decent hits in

#

me, Secretmink, Star and Potatomaster, with Vren as reserve

quiet quiver
#

Not a weak team tho

wary flame
#

it's an all-tester outfit because we're deploying all the stupid memes we didn't want to waste valuable testing time on

quiet quiver
#

Hah

wary flame
#

and yeah, we're not nothing but I'm sure the HEKP Mafia and the SCCC will be entering at least one team each

#

and presumably not meming

quiet quiver
#

My bet is on Hunter, Snipes, Hermann, and [forgot the fourth but they're strong too]

wary flame
#

yeah, they'd be my no. 1 seed too

quiet quiver
#

TBH they might meme too but their memes will be "oh god why who could've prepared for this??"

wary flame
#

Arroyo Vista also looks very strong, Brygg and Das are both very competent

#

Das and I do a decent amount of fleet cooking together and we've always been very evenly matched in the cap game, but he's the stronger liner player

glad aurora
#

I... would like to play in the tournament but it doesn't seem like I'm going to be able to find a team :^)

open plank
#

damn there is a tournament?

quiet quiver
#

Yeah, being organized on the main NebCord

#

There's still time to sign up, including a few partial teams looking for members

sharp crow
#

its snowplow naming season which I think works great for OSP ship names too

image.png
glad aurora
#

Catch My Drift on a liner

#

Orange Peeler on either a MDLN or a railcello

eternal bramble
#

Snow Country For Old Men is brilliant

olive blade
#

gotta go to work lmao

topaz jolt
#

Why do I think that experianced players only bringing 3000 points, would easily squish a 6000 points fleet I make?

tulip vault
#

I remember me and some other pnet veterans have done that to a pub lobby before

wary flame
#

having fought 2:1 quite a few times, it's brutally difficult but we did win at least once

#

mostly I just about kept my Axford alive long enough for Tron to beam everything

tulip vault
#

yeah lol

#

I mostly remember that match for the guy who said "strike your reactors" and then drove blindly onto a point and died

wary flame
#

1500 capwar is hell, but if they only do capital ships you can go super hard on mines and try and get a cheap kill

#

most competent Honor Harrington villain

tulip vault
#

lmao

#

honestly if we had to do it again I

#

'd probably want to do it on OSP tbh

#

Jman + a ship or two and 3 hammerheads + ship would be pretty doable imo

glad aurora
#

I need to do 6k v 12k for the achievement at some point, yeah

wary flame
#

journeycaps kind of works, yeah

#

you do 1040 strike jman + skiffs, then squeeze until you can get two mine shuttles

#

while ever lineship fleet brings a couple of their own

tulip vault
#

yeah

#

medium-cost hammerhead + MMT/some doritos is probably as good as you can get in 1.5k imo

#

if you're looking to do the super defensive strat we did at least

#

they're basically beamstones

junior heron
tulip vault
#

well

#

I did say basically

junior heron
#

tron plz

tulip vault
#

I mean they share

#

some other characteristics

#

nose authority is important? they do a bunch of damage?

#

ignore the fact that the hammerhead is way tougher and faster and double the cost

#

this comparison makes sense

wet root
#

They have limited range, not much armor, ...engines at the back...

tulip vault
#

I need to bring my missile backpack hammerheads to a pub game

#

lark gets it

junior heron
tulip vault
#

plasma/100mming you with my mind

#

(i'm winning because I outrange you)

wet root
#

I wish I could do that

#

I have to use ships to beam or plasma people

tulip vault
#

it's a power you get once you hit commodore

junior heron
tulip vault
#

can't outjam you though

wet root
#

And outcost you

wet root
tulip vault
#

I could

#

dunno where I'm getting the poitns

#

points

wary flame
#

I am honestly eating pretty good with the 650pt beamstones lately

#

OSP is pushing in close for me to jump them

wet root
#

Beamstones feel quite spooky nowadays

tulip vault
#

I need to update my beamstone designs, the lances (so named because they break once you use them in a fight) do not cut it anymore

wet root
tulip vault
#

I think the pikes are pretty fragile as one of those tools but yeah, fair

#

I don't really know what the first one was though

wet root
#

Yeah, I don't think they're necessarily unbalanced, I just dislike it conceptually

wet root
tulip vault
#

oh I mean

#

yeah I suppose

mint sinew
#

Ah, I assumed you meant bloodhounds

tulip vault
#

luckily those are not very good so, yknow

wet root
#

Which also demonstrated why it's so unhealthy, because it meant there was precisely one viable seeker, which really delayed a lot of the good balance changes that came about after they removed EO from OSP

tulip vault
#

yeah that's fair

#

I like the pike from the perspective of OSP being the strikecraft faction

wet root
#

Though tbf so do EO pikes need a track to get the EO ball

mint sinew
#

Pikes live in a similar space tbh. If they get too close they just get shot down and not being able to move back and hold a designated track is a problem in a high EWar environment

wet root
#

Yeah, it's definitely not a big issue, just something I want to grumble about

olive blade
#

I do think it's a somewhat fraught design space

#

But tbh ans gets a lot of things that are kinda fraught

#

And they definitely have the tools to deal with it

wet root
#

Interesting observation from the testing range, it seems like ARAD seeker ignores craft radar, but ARAD validator works fine

junior heron
#

<@&942093958551588904> would anyone like to play some neb?

wet root
#

I could do some stackulous in a few mins

quiet quiver
wet root
#

They're very hard to fit under 1k, just because you spend so much on guns and ammo

tulip vault
#

I don't really think you want a cheap one tbh

#

you'd have to make so many sacrifices

wicked mirage
junior heron
#

I am immensely proud of the Autumn of the Storm's single Tanto, he accomplished so much this match

image.png
tulip vault
#

dang, impressive

olive blade
#

why don't my t20s have a group

20250129173039_1.jpg
#

new bug?

sharp crow
#

they built your liner wrong as a joke

wary flame
#

new anti-bomber device looks promising

#

anti-cuda proofing will occur after I have a nap

sharp crow
#

that's a big boom

#

is this the return of the PD torp

wary flame
#

S3H frag

#

weaves through the flechette and gets a big collateral

#

I call it the LATD, Low Altitude Terminal Defence

#

after a very silly cold war missile

#

but I think three or so people developed it independently at roughly the same time, I can't exactly claim sole credit

sharp crow
#

the pd s3h, same difference.

wary flame
#

technically that was two shots but I'm averaging a solid three kills per missile

sharp crow
#

seems unhinged but anti sturgeon devices are welcome

wary flame
#

torpcorv with 3-4 of these and 2-3 torps has returned to exact vengeance on the skies

sharp crow
#

what's the point cost on it?

wary flame
#

15-17pts each, also kills skiffs

sharp crow
#

oh that's not bad at all

wary flame
#

(occasionally whiffs because side shot, more reliable on bombers, but it almost always connects even if it fails the roll)

sharp crow
#

you can run a backpack of those no problem

#

guess it's annoying if the enemy isn't bringing sturgeons but it's a safe bet right now

wary flame
#

I saw one of these take out seven cudas in one shot

#

although they weren't defending themselves

#

the only real sticking point is getting a good enough track, not sure if it works on frontline or whether you need para

#

some fine tuning still to do

#

if they only have a Jman you basically have a counterspell for any one of their strikes, it's hilarious

sharp crow
#

well, if you can cuda proof it anyway

wary flame
#

it'll kill anything it's actually fired at

#

but with a warhead this big the stage range is only just longer than flechette range

#

so if they fly out in front of the bombers you shot at they can probably spray it down in cruise mode

#

I need to tinker with it and find out if I can keep most of the multikills while adding some stage range

sharp crow
#

it sounds solid

#

the backpack that the 120 sidearm axford needs

wary flame
#

I'm actually not sure how to counter it

#

act lunge or something maybe

#

auth is an issue though, craft tend to shoot everything that works on missiles at planes

sharp crow
#

a cuda escort out in front probably does the trick right

#

and if you decide to splash that squad instead the bomber gets through

wary flame
#

yeah, lots of formation nonsense

#

I send four cudas ahead in 2km-spaced single file to waste their ammo

sharp crow
#

grape gunpod sturgeon escort

#

to shoot it from even further out

wary flame
#

hmm

#

SDM on a side pylon of one of the sturgeons to Dark Souls parry it

sharp crow
#

escorting my bomber with more bombers like I'm the 8th airforce

glad aurora
#

Sweep ahead with manually microed fighter escort so the (defensive asset) doesn't just spamclick through to your bombers and fuck the attack run for free

tulip vault
olive blade
#

I did toy with the idea of wild weasel fighters

#

with AMM loadouts for fighting the missile frigs

#

but it turned out gunpod and such was fine enough

#

but with these I can see it being good

glad aurora
#

tbh, the AMMs won't stop it once it starts sprinting and if you get it before it starts sprinting it dies to flechette like everything else

#

you've just got to be on point with your fighter cover

olive blade
#

you just need an amm that hits it before sprint range

#

really

tulip vault
#

Misc when you work this missile out would it be possible for you to post it here? I should probably make a playable ANS fleet at some point and I'll be damned if it isn't a backpack axford

tulip vault
#

I was wondering if the depression changes made rocket liners viable

#

the answer: only at hitting your own ship

junior heron
#

lol

glad aurora
#

depression isn't changed

#

:^)

sharp crow
#

sturgeons get so much cool shit

#

they should give the claymore some more juice

junior heron
#

give it the lore accurate defender

sharp crow
#

it's time to give it a spinal beam

junior heron
#

please

warm gulch
#

really need to knuckle down one day and rebuild some of my fleets

#

emphasis on "some" because i only remember one of them ever working, and one other working at being very funny

deft current
#

How’s the R-3 Spearfish?

sharp crow
#

very good, probably best bomber loadout

deft current
sharp crow
#

no idea, probably also good

#

I haven't seen a container liner since the carrier update honestly

deft current
tulip vault
#

I’m not convinced you can do what makes spearfishes good with containers

#

They’re probably still fine but

deft current
#

So do SSJ not work anymore?

#

The directed jammers you can put on missiles

junior heron
#

the directed one is the boosted self screening jammer

#

the regular SSJ is an omnidirectional jam

deft current
#

Also does Wave maneuver work on container?

junior heron
#

a little

deft current
junior heron
#

huh, that's weird

#

I'm pretty sure it's been working on my containers - what's your setup?

deft current
junior heron
#

ah

glad aurora
#

doubtful

#

also, weave on containers isn't nearly enough to dodge 20mm

#

you need a mix of decoys, BSSJ, and all corkscrew

deft current
tulip vault
#

and a healthy dose of acceptance

glad aurora
#

also, if they're submunition containers, when they stage, the penaids will shut off

#

(because the container is no longer there)

tulip vault
#

I imagine BSSJ also sufferes from the jammer stacking thing

deft current
glad aurora
#

correct, as well as being able to pass offset tracks to the jammed ship

deft current
deft current
glad aurora
glad aurora
#

It's somewhere in that range

olive blade
#

I think pure container liner is a bit awkward but I think carrier with 1-2 banks of containers is potentially pretty good

#

I think you really want a lot of control of the airspace to container to stop people just intercepting them with tantos on the way and thats tricky with a full container liner while also having enough frontline/cap and such

#

and broadly people are bringing a lot of defenses against planes that are also good against containers

#

which makes them a bit awkwardly positioned

#

but I think like a couple of banks with maybe one set for big ships, one set for little ships, one set for finishing stuff off / wide searching for scouts with no defenses / killing anything without a defender and tantos on hand

#

something like that, might well be really good

#

I found R3 boxes to be pretty decent in testing with 2 seekers + decoys

#

and designed to launch the r3 just at defender range to get the most decoy value

mint sinew
#

If you go traditional support boxes with decoys and HEI containers you can load the last box in your salvo with kbu2 bombs to make the damage stick.

#

It's very satisfying knocking out a Solomon on the first strike

olive blade
#

kbu2 containers seem very expensive

mint sinew
#

Not really because they don't hold a lot. You can only fit 2 bombs with a good cruise stage, so it's pretty affordable

olive blade
#

oh right yeah hmm I guess using the other boxes to screen for it

#

that kinda makes sense

mint sinew
#

Yeah, bypassing poor pd pen is nothing new to containers. You've got decoys to beat 20mm and the classic HEI boxes to soak any flak

olive blade
#

I guess PD prioritises the S3

mint sinew
#

Time to impact is the other critical factor, which is why containers + conventional S2s pens so well. Containers eat range pd on the decoys and as they get close the faster S2s cause the pd to focus on things that aren't the containers until too late

tulip vault
#

I think the KBU2s at the end are more for finishing off something that eats the container strike without having to spend more time on it

#

if you're hitting a salvo of 10-12 containers, those last 2 or 3 almost certainly don't need to worry about PD

olive blade
#

thats true it does like, finish off components well

tulip vault
#

that is their main point, big damage rays

olive blade
#

but I think getting the full 10-12 salvo requires a full liner which I'm not convinced of

tulip vault
#

yeah for sure

olive blade
#

or I guess ToT stuff

#

if you have that skill haha

tulip vault
#

I could see bombers and then having bomb submunition containers in a rack, but that's a bit junky

#

bombs just have such a long loading time for what they accomplish

mint sinew
#

I've been toying with bomb submunitions on the back of gun liners as finishers for stubborn capitals. They are great but the opportunity cost for the mount is so high

olive blade
#

I have a monitor group that has like

#

6 monitors with I think 4C90 3plasma 5T30

#

and each one has a 2 container thing

#

giving a single volley of like 12 R3+decoy containers

#

which can basically fairly reliably get an axford or heavily damage a bb

#

having a bomb one on the end of that would be nice but it really complicates the micro

tulip vault
#

I’ve been thinking about putting the heighliners back together but the lack of programming busses makes it really really rough

olive blade
#

yeah monitors having 2 channels was the thing for me trying this

#

its seemed pretty good but it is a bit awkward when you run into like not capital things

tulip vault
#

I did like my container monitor build pre-patch

#

I feel like the guns are pretty well equipped to handle that no?

olive blade
#

well I tried it and first couple of games went well

#

last game was endless beam dds and one beefore was me as the only frontline getting hit by bombers constantly

#

and in both cases I kinda wish I just had more regular monitor setups

tulip vault
#

mmm yeah beam DDs are a little rough

junior heron
#

fuck, i missed grabbing the second bit

#

they said they enjoyed googling the definitions of words

tulip vault
#

incredible

#

they should just play osp

junior heron
#

<@&942093958551588904> anyone up for some boats?

misty storm
#

Shure

wet root
#

I'm going for a quick walk before the sun goes down, but I'll be down to boat in 30ish mins

#

And I actually am a functional person today!

junior heron
#

I love nebulous

image.png
#

the map is Gold Rush

rigid bison
# junior heron

Was the pitt built at least using SAH S1s with the illuminator?

junior heron
#

which I think is perfect for this team comp

#

i dunno yet

tulip vault
#

I was going to ask which one was yours

#

but no

#

there's just 5 beam battleships

junior heron
#

yeah you know mine

tulip vault
#

equivalent in strength to 1 whole hammerhead

tulip vault
#

it has changed post patch I think

junior heron
#

i'll have to post the newest version then

junior heron
#

and in this game, there was yet another creature

20250129182436_1.jpg
wicked mirage
junior heron
quiet quiver
topaz jolt
#

Aww. There's Nebulous noises happening right now?

oak shell
#

There are!

#

Can you join us?

topaz jolt
#

I'm currently busy, aaah.

#

I'll be like another 90 minutes before I'm free. Though then it will be almost 6am.

#

I've played like one game since cariers came out.

topaz jolt
#

Eeeps. Only just now. And almost 7am.

deft current
#

Are containers still viable?

glad aurora
#

Yes.

deft current
# glad aurora Yes.

How you use them tough?
BSSJ doesn’t do anything bc even in spam the containers RCS is too large

Decoy launcher didn’t helped either and CDL is too expensive

glad aurora
#

decoy, r3 or r2 submunition containers, 21-22km range, act/[wake]

mix in some act/[wake]/hoj

or pay for a CDL and make them all act/[wake]/hoj

#

¯_(ツ)_/¯

deft current
glad aurora
lime jungleBOT
# glad aurora

Fleet 'ZGB10' is composed of 1 ship which costs 3000 points:

Zurglegurglebergenstein Exhumed : 'Moorline' class Line Ship [Missile]
```This fleet uses 4 different missile types:
```yaml
CM-4 BX 2 : CRUISE - ACT(RADAR)/[PSV(WAKE)]/HOJ(RADAR) - SUBMN [11pts]
   CM-4 E : CRUISE - ACT(RADAR)/[PSV(WAKE)] - HE SHAPED [14pts]
  CM-4 E2 : CRUISE - ACT(RADAR)/[PSV(WAKE)] - HE SHAPED [8pts]
   CM-4 R : CRUISE - ACT(RADAR)/[PSV(WAKE)]/HOJ(RADAR) - SUBMN [8pts]
ZGB10.png
sharp crow
#

truly delightful name

misty storm
#

hrm

#

would a jman with cap support stuff be harder to micro than a monitor full of yub? im thinking about modifying the osp cap starter fleet since i dont really like the yub monitor

#

and i think that some fighter escort would help give the edge in cap war

#

id assume a pocket carrier monitor would be inefficient?

mint sinew
#

depends what's in the jman. A pure fighter escort carrier is pretty set and forget to run

#

and fairly cost efficient really

#

if you are trying to juggle toy bomber and scout wings then the micro draw goes up quickly

misty storm
#

yeah

#

lemme tell you how much the montor runs

#

hold on

lime jungleBOT
# misty storm

Fleet 'Caps' is composed of 8 ships that cost 3000 points:

  Famed Prowl : 'Flathead' class Monitor [Missile]
    Wound Web : 'Draugr' class Clipper [Missile EWar Gun PD Sensor]
  Sound Piles : 'Draugr' class Clipper [Missile EWar Gun PD Sensor]
  Burly Deeds : 'Draugr' class Clipper [Missile EWar Gun PD Sensor]
    Many Bane : 'Ferryman' class Clipper [PD Gun]
   Void Stoop : 'Ferryman' class Clipper [PD Gun]
   Aware Fast : 'Ferryman' class Clipper [PD Gun]
First Hustler : 'Ferryman' class Clipper [PD Gun]
```This fleet uses 4 different missile types:
```yaml
          SGM-101 Buckler : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR) - HE FRAG [2pts]
SGM-171 Tribble Container : DIRECT - PSV(WAKE) - HE SHAPED [1pts]
           SGM-22 Sunfish : CRUISE - ACT(RADAR)/[PSV(WAKE)] - HE SHAPED [6pts]
           SGM-247 Slider : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR)/[CMD] - HE SHAPED [8pts]
Caps.png
misty storm
#

yeah the monitor is 965

#

and i would like to fit intel on there

mint sinew
#

I know there are jman builds that put in work all the way down to 750 so it's probably easier to go to a jman there

misty storm
#

ok

#

idk what goes into jman design really

#

i would need an example

mint sinew
#

Like my equivalent build sacs an MMT for some toys on the carrier, but you can easily carve down that cost

📎 half_capping.fleet
lime jungleBOT
# mint sinew Like my equivalent build sacs an MMT for some toys on the carrier, but you can e...

Fleet 'Half capping' is composed of 7 ships that cost 3000 points:

 The Lacy Flesh : 'Journeyman' class Light Carrier [PD]
    Magic Forth : 'Draugr' class Clipper [Missile EWar Gun PD Sensor]
     Shawl Size : 'Draugr' class Clipper [Missile EWar Gun PD Sensor]
 The Snug Dowel : 'Ferryman' class Clipper [PD Gun]
The Inept Briar : 'Ferryman' class Clipper [PD Gun]
       Feat Wry : 'Ferryman' class Clipper [PD Gun]
   The Shy Pine : 'Ferryman' class Clipper [PD Gun]
```This fleet uses 6 different missile types:
```yaml
SGM-101 Ceremonial Arming Missile : DIRECT - PSV(WAKE) - HE SHAPED [1pts]
                 SGM-111 Demister : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR) - HE FRAG [2pts]
              SGM-161 Voidsweeper : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR) - HE FRAG [2pts]
      SGM-211 Obstruction Remover : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR)/[ARAD(RADAR)] - HE SHAPED [8pts]
                 SGT-306 Bludgeon : DIRECT - ARAD(RADAR)/ACT(RADAR) - HE SHAPED [13pts]
                  SGT-309 Poleaxe : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR)/[PSV(THERM)] - HE SHAPED [15pts]
half_capping.png
misty storm
#

ok

#

thanks

mint sinew
#

The cudas are just guys + some secondary loadouts and the sturgeons are certainly not optimal, but they are nice to give me an option to dislodge axfords

#

The pikes are an easy cut if you trust your team to bring their own spotters

misty storm
#

ok

#

whats the typical loadout for capguard?

#

also ive got one from misc it seems, ill ask him too

mint sinew
#

Misc will know better than me, but a set of R1s lets a wing of cudas punch out enemy cappers easily

#

enough R1s will also threaten up to keystones (well bigger if you have enough rockets)

misty storm
#

id assume like

#

fuel tanks

#

35 gunpods

#

rockets

#

amms?

#

or jam pods?

mint sinew
#

No clue on the perfect recipe I'm afraid. Probably best to assume the R1 strikers aren't going to dogfight but 🤷

wet root
#

I think it's pretty optimistic to hope a Jman will have less micro than any MN, they're similar in terms of course designation and salvo counts except the Jman has multiple loadouts and... keeps taking micro, rather than being fire-and-forget

#

And ideally the Jman gets extra salvos from their flights coming back

olive blade
#

I think fighters are more constant upkeep

#

but good missile pathing can be annoying and fiddly

olive blade
#

are common setups

misty storm
#

ok

glad aurora
#

the long nightmare is over

#

I don't know why Lys went with changing 35flech point cost instead of doing the "pods take up 2 slots on the wing for both fighter types" concept, but we'll see

rigid bison
#

got it's so weird to be in an era where the big elation-inducing changes are OSP nerfs and ANS buffs

glad aurora
#

eh, for me specifically these are things I've been asking for for a while

#

so there's a little bit of extra elation there

tulip vault
#

jesus christ, osp really hit with the holistic hammer

#

I'm pretty on board with the ANS buffs, much less on board with the OSP getting every almost every aspect of their strikecraft nerfed

mint sinew
glad aurora
#

it doesn't

#

35slug will effectively never do anything to an AN hull

rigid bison
#

yeah why does 35 slug exist?

glad aurora
#

long story

mint sinew
#

But if it costs 20% as much I'll bring it to token arm skiffs

olive blade
#

mmm I liked R3 finally being strong

#

other changes probably had to happen

rigid bison
#

honestly I wonder if the t30 will ever get it's DP back

tulip vault
#

doubling the costs of R3s is brutal

#

while also buffing ANS"s ability to knock out bomber strikes

mint sinew
#

R3 and flechette both getting tapped with price bumps will stretch moorlines a bit

tulip vault
#

I am mostly sad for the death of my 1.8k moorline idea

glad aurora
#

The R3 cost change is far overdue.

#

Same for the performance changes.

olive blade
#

tbh I really like there being a proper kill for big ships

glad aurora
#

Take a torp, rip out everything but the engine and an equivalent warhead, no seeker, no nothing - that was 4pts.

#

The R3 is now, without looking at the exact S3T engine values, presumably a literal unguided torp now instead of an unguided torp which performed better for half the price.

tulip vault
#

yeah I dunno personally I think if you get got by the 3k ship capable of fielding a proper bomber strike... thems the brakes idk. It's a bit of a kneejerk reaction on my part for feeling like OSP finally gets something good and is then immediately battered to death by the patch hammer but

olive blade
#

yeah thats a bit how I feel

glad aurora
#

sturgeon bomber loadout (can't be defeated by softkill, can k-kill reinforced ships): 5pts

AN bomber loadout: 28pts

#

trust me. way overdue

olive blade
#

I mean like

#

thats not the cvost though

glad aurora
#

the other option was presumably what I was arguing for in the past, which was giving AN their own unguided weapon

olive blade
#

its plane + the launch spot + the time to launch it

#
  • carry space
glad aurora
#

and in every single respect that just advantages OSP more, yeah

#

it's a direct bomber to bomber comparison

olive blade
#

yeah but it means its not 5-28

#

its like however much you get out of two leveys vs 1 moorline in good strikes in an acceptable bomber loadout

glad aurora
#

yeah

it's not even close

olive blade
#

yeah which is fine to some extent

glad aurora
#

not really

tulip vault
#

I feel like OSP deserves something they're better at than ANS

olive blade
#

OSP is supposed to be the strike craft faction and need strong strikes to deal with the big ANS ships

glad aurora
#

and they keep strong strikes, just not at a fraction the cost of AN's own bombers while having strike fighters that can defeat their dedicated ASF and kill cap ships in a single run

olive blade
#

I guess to me it comes down to like

#

how many R3s you need to break a battleship or axford pair with the speed nerfs

#

assuming proper building

glad aurora
#

yeah

#

ideally you should have to pay money for torps and suffer through softkill like AN has to if you want to break capital ships

#

instead of using the incredibly cheap, softkill-immune option against every target bigger than a sprinter

olive blade
#

I think broadly R3s should be less good against other things but as good against capitals

#

unless they make softkill a real choice

glad aurora
#

that's well and good in the abstract (and presumably what the speed change was meant to target - making them less good against vauxhalls and other maneuverable hulls), but a good player would just fly sturgeons right up to you, right-click you, and then you died

olive blade
#

yeah

tulip vault
#

look I don't want to do some bell curve meme of just shoot them down but like

olive blade
#

I think if I get 8 sturgeons to 2km of a bb

#

it should die

tulip vault
#

...I dunno just shoot them down, yeah

junior heron
#

It wasn't like, 2km though

#

it was 4

olive blade
#

use your breadsticks and fighter cover and sarissas and whatever

#

launching at 4 is messy af

#

you can get dodged

#

I have had it happen

glad aurora
#

and all of those have been very specifically buffed so they ideally should now

(except breadsticks)

mint sinew
junior heron
#

I've dodged maybe half a salvo at that range
I honestly did find myself getting really annoyed about the instant-deletion, seemingly regardless of how I could play

olive blade
#

those definitely can work

#

I have played against good players and you do lose a lot of strikes especially against battleships with proper escorts

mint sinew
junior heron
#

grouping up with another capital didn't work, sneaking around didn't
I guess I just need to figure out more proper escorts

olive blade
#

the problem is really that like anything softkillable is just kinda unusable against anything axford and up

glad aurora
#

anything softkillable is unusable against any frontline that knows what it's doing and is built properly

olive blade
#

yeah

glad aurora
#

but 99.9% of the playerbase isn't that

#

¯_(ツ)_/¯

olive blade
#

ok

#

99% of the playerbase can't do this

olive blade
#

breadsticks fucking own random sturgeon waves just driving at targets

mint sinew
#

A single PD sprinter closer to the incoming bombers also routed strikes

glad aurora
#

yeah, it's a very awkward balance tightrope to walk between "okay a good OSP carrier player pre-this-patch could just cycle as many sturgeon strikes as they had ammo because their escort fighters were better in every respect than AN's, they had more of them, and they could use them to shoot down anti-bomber missiles" and "most of the playerbase has no idea how to competently EMCON softkill"

#

this also obscured how bad the Levy was

olive blade
#

I guess ultimately like

tulip vault
#

excessive

olive blade
#

I would rather they fix the escort fighter issues

#

rather than nerfing R3

#

I think once you get a strike properly through you should get the reward

#

if the issue is thats too easy that should be fixed

rigid bison
#

I want the OSP to have something the ANS player has problems with! I want OSP to have long range strikes!

olive blade
#

but expecting osp to like, use torpedos that are useless against a decent player

#

is absurd

#

and that only leaves R3

#

unless they decide to revert bombs or something lmao

glad aurora
#

unfortunately that's what AN has to do

omnisoftkill is the order of the day

olive blade
#

my real solution is I think interruptor should take the big axford mount

#

so its a real cost to bring

glad aurora
#

and I assume that it was either "AN gets a comparable weapon to the R3" (which is what I had argued for in the past) or "R3 gets significantly nerfed"

olive blade
#

I mean they do

#

S3H

#

and S2H

glad aurora
#

can't bring 144 S3H

#

(also something the price change addresses)

quiet quiver
#

And also that comes out to "bring a yub frig, not bombers"

olive blade
#

yeah I mean from a design pov OSP is supposed to rely more on strike than ANS who is supposed to rely on missiles

glad aurora
#

which is awkward, since presumably a reason should exist to bring an AN carrier beyond (as the title of my current AN double levy fleet goes) "softkill gambling"

#

(it just spams ARAD/ACT since the softkill for that is really annoying and fiddly on OSP and people don't want to do it)

olive blade
#

thats fine, I think broadly levy should be weaker

#

in the same way that OSP yub really struggles atm

glad aurora
#

submunition CLN is even scarier than CVLN

olive blade
#

mmmm not sure I agree

#

and if so thats a design issue

mint sinew
#

Does the R3 price nerf carry over to the boxes?

junior heron
#

it'd be halved overall I think

#

because boxes are half price

olive blade
#

they pay more per missile than R3 regularly so its a bit weird

quiet quiver
#

R3 boxes will cost 2 more points than they currently do

#

The price of submunitions themselves is not halved, only the dispenser price

#

(No one who has not seen the exact formula will understand submunition pricing, and I don't blame them)

junior heron
#

oh huh

#

...can we see the exact formula?

quiet quiver
#

Gimme a few minutes to type it up

glad aurora
# olive blade mmmm not sure I agree

it's another competency issue, honestly

CLN has many, many ways to build a bad one. I've played with random CLNs before with a disconnect (handed-off ships), and people were building containers that just... wouldn't get strikes through even when I was pathing them directly up an Axford's rear, even when they did pick submunition warheads.

Meanwhile, frankly, R3+KBU22 Sturgeon was a right-click machine. The starter fleet was already the CVLN, there were no changes made to it to make it mulch people in pubs better, just maybe to perform better at higher levels of play by giving more options.

A well-built CLN just doesn't get countered unless you have 3-4 Axfords balled up or perfectly softkill ACT/[WAKE]/HOJ (which means chaffing, getting away from your chaff on the cruise path, and killing your engines early enough the validator doesn't pick you up anyway, before the containers get close enough to stage rockets into you at which point your softkill doesn't matter)

#

having no seekers >>>>>>>>>>>>> having seekers in high-level neb play

#

ah, there's also the secret alternate option of swarming the container salvo with coil/jampod tantos

#

but that requires good vision and having the tantos out and searching for the containers already, which means having a good and proactive levy, and that got hard countered by the 100flak bubble (which has now been nerfed multiple ways multiple times over)

#

jamcraft in general are still kind of bullshit as softkill tools but oh well

mint sinew
quiet quiver
#

There's two components to the pricing, the dispenser and the munitions.

  • The dispenser scales linearly with warhead volume and is subject to the container's discount, at base 0.333 pts per socket weight, or 0.25 pts per 1 m^3. (And yes you do have to pay for empty/wasted space if the munitions don't divide evenly into the socket) Final discounted price 0.67 per CM-4 warhead tick, for 5.32 m^3 volume
  • Munitions are based on the item's base cost, with two modifiers. The first modifier is that certain specific munitions have a 4x multiplier, the second modifier is a flat -2 per, in that order. Neither of these are discounted
#

Munitions with the multiplier are all types of bombs, plus Auger sprint mines

junior heron
#

was just about to ask

mint sinew
quiet quiver
#

Min 0

mint sinew
#

Ah, that's why R2 boxes are so much cheaper for rocket count

quiet quiver
#

So R-2s are 0 per, you only pay for the dispenser

glad aurora
#

so it gets spammed because it's the viable seeker setup

#

'sides, all it has to do is reach 2km and stage rockets in your direction

quiet quiver
#

And with PBT an R-3 box is going from 4 pts to 6 pts (plus avionics/seekers/etc)

mint sinew
junior heron
quiet quiver
#

Anyway now that explanations are done, lemme say I hate the equation so much

junior heron
#

lol

mint sinew
#

I do too, especially as it's not explained anywhere

#

So when I was toying with it I had to just build all the options and see which I thought were good deals

junior heron
#

knowing it, I can back-figure-it-out from the info given

quiet quiver
#

Yeah there's breadcrumbs of it, like "SUBM Discount: 2"

junior heron
#

subm costs .333... per, box has 4x socket weight, and a 1/2 modifier for .666... per tick

#

and the discount

glad aurora
#

I remember it was a discussion during testing, but I can't remember if Lys decided to make them early stage like hybrids

#

They didn't for awhile

quiet quiver
#

You might never figure out bombs and sprint mines without being told though, just "these are weird for some reason"

junior heron
#

yeah

mint sinew
quiet quiver
#

Did you also see the RBU-15?

mint sinew
#

I think I did, but I think I'd just resigned to using kbu-2 for value so didn't look closely

glad aurora
#

the CBU-40 change is the one I'm most excited about, though, honestly

#

I might actually be able to fit DGLs back into my double Levies

mint sinew
#

I assume RBU-15 containers absolutely flattened someone the first time they were tested

glad aurora
#

yeah, back before they got their speed boost capped

quiet quiver
#

Yeah bombs in general would fly out based on the container's speed, except when they were bugged and used the container-launching ship's speed

#

Also other bugs making them go much faster than they should've

wary flame
#

The thing I'm very unhappy with here is the flechette nerf, I think we'll very quickly see that it's not optional to have flechette escort fighters when ANS can fire as many SDMs as they can.

#

My current Moorline can probably afford to keep its loadout if it drops every torpedo and just runs R3s and flechette cudas, but that is incredibly boring and I feel that you should in fact be able to use more than the lowest common denominator equipment.

glad aurora
#

the lowest common denominator equipment is the best equipment, which is kind of the deep structural issue I kept referring to in the past.

#

I do think the flechette nerf was the wrong one, but I don't have any insight as to why the 2-slot pod option wasn't chosen

bitter furnace
#

would have broken everyone's existing loadouts which Lys was not willing to do 😔

wet root
wet root
quiet quiver
wet root
#

I know all my carriers will need major rejiggering before they're back to 3k

junior heron
#

side-related question: can the hangar bays only launch their own ships?
Could MT2 here launch a pike, even though it's in MT3?

image.png
quiet quiver
#

Yeah you can launch from other bays

#

<@&942093958551588904> Also, with a PTB up, do people want to play PTB or Main for boat night?

wet root
#

I launched the server with both, since I'm guessing many people won't have a chance to adjust fleets for PTB before boat night

quiet quiver
#

(I'm probably missing tomorrow to spend time with by NBF)

wicked mirage
#

I still work weekends

#

dies

wary flame
#

I suspect this is a little bit overboard because this is basically every max-power nerf that was being discussed simultaneously, as usual, but that's life I guess

olive blade
mint sinew
#

We'll see how things look in the ptb, maybe a few things get wound back if it's a bit much

olive blade
#

Hitting the containers on the way

#

Idk I find they do this sort of patch a lot

wet root
#

Yeah, there's an unfortunate tendency to nerf with a sledgehammer

bitter furnace
olive blade
#

It's irritating and seems

#

To happen heaps in neb

glad aurora
#

I would have liked the Claymore change, the CBU change, the coil change, the R3 price change, the gunpod slots change, and the 100mm Sturgeon spread change and leave some of the others off

but all of the ones I mentioned (aside from gunpod slots which is A Technical No-Go, understandably) I'm very positive on and looking forward to

bitter furnace
#

it's our fault for fucking it up in the final weeks of the testing period, despite the ANS Mains in bal-con exaggerating a lot, there is a truth that we left a few critical things overtuned which I feel pretty embarrassed about

glad aurora
#

actually being able to fit buff modules and sensors and a decent ASF complement into a double Levy fleet is going to be nice with just the insane degree of cost-cutting I had to do previous

glad aurora
#

people saying that OSP deserved to have nice things and the AN concerns were overblown were reasonable in doing so

olive blade
#

I think the game would be balanced 10x as well if it forced players to alternate factions each game lmao

bitter furnace
#

I'm probably being too hard on myself idk what we would have done even if we had consensus, there was no time left anyway

glad aurora
#

yeah, it really was "100flak nerf, barracuda gunpods, 50% BF"

#

and then things like the claymore changes/coil buffs/CBU were kind of ish agreed on by some people but that was it

#

I also don't think anyone understood just how soul-crushingly awful R1s would be when they hit pub capgames because the tester cap players were all uniformly superb

#

either way, no need to be too hard on yourself, it's good we have these changes now and if OSP's too far down those can just get stripped back

olive blade
#

Idk

#

The record on stripping back those changes has been kinda bad

wary flame
#

I've been playing nothing but 3k ANS capfleet for a week because nobody else will and honestly it's been fine

olive blade
#

The last meta lasted sooooo long

#

Before fixes

wary flame
#

I have zero faith in quick walk-backs of overdone nerfs, that's basically never how Neb has worked

wary flame
glad aurora
#

PTB's a bit more responsive about these things than if they were implemented into main

wary flame
#

I still think this flechette change is an abysmal idea, though

quiet quiver
glad aurora
wary flame
#

Sure I am, but I've also gone basically unopposed

#

It's not "playing well against new and dangerous threats" it's "there are threats?"

mint sinew
#

Cap playing has been a lot like that since the patch dropped

wary flame
#

I kill three shuttles every game, take 2/3 of the map and then sit back and watch them try to exert map control with pure craft, which doesn't work even if you get pickoffs on a few of my ships

quiet quiver
#

The three things I'm most worried about are Sturg gunpod accuracy, Tanto FCR range, and flechette cost

wary flame
#

The flechette change is a miserable idea motivated entirely by a short-sighted direct comparison to the coilgun, everything else I can move with

mint sinew
wet root
glad aurora
#

rather, not playing neb because of pubs

quiet quiver
#

The first was suggested to deal with the grapeshot heavy fighter which is completely moot now, the second is not just gonna make coil strong but possibly make 20mm overbearing too, and the third is a like... a 200 pt point swing if you have 50 Cuda sorties? That's fucking huge

#

(Or 40 Cuda sorties and 5 nose-only Halberd ones)

glad aurora
#

there's still no fix in the PTB notes for evade makes you unable to ever fire a coilgun or hit anything with 20mm, so there is that

wet root
#

How jammable are Tanto FCRs? I don't really have a mental model for craft radar vs craft jamming rn

wary flame
#

Hey, at least I can now remove all A2A munitions from my journeyman because I can't afford them anyway

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Pure greed era baby

glad aurora
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there's no such thing as A2A

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if you want to destroy AN anti-air capabilities it's SEAD

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completely different mission statement

wary flame
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This is true, and also the exact reason flechette needed to be generally accessible in a way the coilgun is not

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but the Jman didn't really do that anyway so it genuinely was concerned with messing up the enemy carrier

low monolith
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but I don't have enough experience with the game to feel confident in my build

sharp crow
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if you're taking one of the tf maple frigates as a base it's hard to go wrong

sly glade
wary flame
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they can bring all their old captech, they just kind of don't

sly glade
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yeah, 'cause they have shiny and powerful new tools competing for points

olive blade
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the biggest struggle OSP has

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is the number of players that really just want to only play ANS and have strong feelings about balance whenever OSP gets anything

sly glade
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lol fair

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same ones who just wanted to play battleships before

violet root
wary flame
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welp, multirole moorline is dead, can't fit three hangars of craft even if I remove every torpedo and S2 and just go pure rockets

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only one of my builds soldiers on

image.png
sharp crow
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did you ever finish up that anti bomber S3H, by the way?

wary flame
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got slightly diverted designing an anti-skiff version that didn't work, I'll tidy it up later today

sharp crow
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I was under the impression you could S2H skiffs pretty well

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damn

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the hammerheads + jman list is 100 points more expensive

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that's rough

misty storm
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So what I’m getting is that most of the changes are agreeable but the flechette points hike isn’t really liked?

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But yeah I do agree that so many people start complaining when OSP gets any amount of nice things

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Is Lys caving to that? Maybe a bit imo

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Also, I’m fine with playing on main, people don’t seem to like this testulous

glad aurora
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most of these changes are mandatory and only got delayed due to a lack of consensus and a lot of work needing to be done on higher priorities

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there's just a few that might be too much on a glance, but we won't actually know unless we, y'know, test the Public Test Branch

misty storm
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Ok

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Why did flechette get nerfed so hard?

glad aurora
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because flechette is the god omniround and you'd never bring anything else in a loadout unless you're saving cost by bringing flechette pods and 20mm nose

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pricing up the pods specifically isn't immediately technically possible (since that changes the cost of the whole airframe across all loadouts), and wolf mentioned that lys didn't want to expand pod size because that'd break every cuda loadout

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so either you nerf flechette performance or you nerf flechette price

wary flame
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this price nerf is way overboard, in my book, since they actually need it to do their various jobs

misty storm
wary flame
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but I can slap VLS-2 pods to half my ANS capfleet and see how much of a moorline I can kill if they don't have it, at least

misty storm
glad aurora
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unfortunately this is also another competency valley

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the average pub player will occasionally shoot down a SDM-2 or three

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very good OSP carrier players had I do not want to be interacted with by size 2+ missiles as a micro button