Nebulous: Fleet Command

[wet root]

Vauxes in particular

[supple sonnet]

Hm. So take 100AP as offensive shell, rather than HE?

[wet root]

They lost some armor this patch but they still usually have that range of effective armor

Both really, they're super cheap and you want HE for lighter targets

[supple sonnet]

I suppose for medium targets I have 450HE.

[wet root]

Also Axfords get penned on the flat by 100mm AP, though that usually just means you remove their nose thrusters

[supple sonnet]

AP dose less damage and only to one component VS HE doing more and spreads it's damage out over a radius

[glad aurora]

No. All craft have 0.3cm of armor.

[deft current]

Also it seems I don’t get the "ratio" of fighter fleets

Like at what point are there just too many fighters as it seems if you fill a Container with fighters you literally don’t have the points anymore to laodout all of them anymore

[glad aurora]

100mm is so cheap and takes such little space that you might as well bring AP, HE, and Flak to cover all your bases

[supple sonnet]

I suppose so, yes.

Hopefully some HAA will make this a better fleet. :3

[glad aurora]

Ayup, my usual LN fleet these days runs 10 T20s, 8 Bastions, a bunch of AMMs, and omnisoftkill spread over two 450LNs and an escort shuttle

11 T20s, I forgot the shuttle's

[deft current]

Like it feels fielding more than 20~ fighter has no point bc, you literally run out the stuff point wise to equip them with

Like what’s the point having 80 crafts (on a full loaded container ship) in total if only 1/3 can be equipped and used

[past light]

Are you talking about a container liner or the moorline?

If you want to make a carrier, you should be using the latter

[mint sinew]

How expensive are you loading your fighters? The standard issue "The Guy" barracuda build runs with fuel pods/jammers/nose 20mm/35mm flechette pods and a pair of cheap S1 missiles

[wary flame]

by hangar space, I generally go about 32-36 fighters, 20-24 sturgeons and the rest skiffs

maybe a few pikes to taste

[mint sinew]

Those come out to <20 points loaded with a resupply

[wary flame]

it's hard to afford lots of premium weaponry there, so often I run a three-hangar build that fills the last slot with 72 mixed containers and then runs slightly fewer planes with one round of missiles each and then unguided R3s

[deft current]

Oh a "pair"

I just slap 8 S1 on them to cosplay F4 phantom gameplay

…I think I found the issue

[mint sinew]

Yeah, making heavy use of the free/efficient components really stretches your budget

[deft current]

So most dogfights are done by the cannons than the missiles?

For costs sake

[glad aurora]

no, just because you can't fire missiles if someone's filling you with holes, and guns can't be chaffed

also: fuel is mandatory

there is maybe one situation where you don't want the first pair of fuel tanks on your cudas

and then 99 more when you do

[deft current]

Aight

[wary flame]

missile + gun fighters will totally demolish pure gunships, because you can't fire guns if you're dodging a missile so they just line you up with their own guns and kill you easily

the standard setup is 2x Act S1 ACM, fuel tanks, jam pods, 35mm wing pods with flechette ammo and the stock 20mm nose gun

and then upgrading from there mostly with cooler missiles

although you can always take nose 35mm and two more S1s instead of the wing pods if you really want a midpoint between that setup and CMD Lunges

[supple sonnet]

So, I tested OSP HAA in a skirmish and.. It's funny to see them just randomly firing but it's sayisfying too.

[wary flame]

the T30 is a very pretty turret

it's a shame most Jmen benefit from having the extra pad on the Class 4 mount because I really like how it looks as the Jman's primary weapon

[supple sonnet]

This raises the question: Does the ANS 120 do HAA well as well, or is it an OSP 100 unique thing?

120 RPF is better then nothing but not that good, 250 RPF is vary good

[deft current]

Unrelated but what are good anti-ship fighter loadouts?

[supple sonnet]

I have.. Only now realised how much I have missed having secondary guns in Nebulous.

[wary flame]

the standard anti-light loadout for OSP is R-1 rockets, but those only kill frigates and corvettes

both sides can make good use out of S1/S2 mixed strike - make an S1 that flies ahead of your S2 and soaks enemy AMMs fired at the S2s

cudas and tantos can both kill stuff with those

[deft current]

Also are bombs just as the tutorial said absolutely useless against moving targets?

Or is the practice different?

[wary flame]

they are strictly finishers and not to be used against anything with active PD

they can hit moving targets if you're aggressive enough and they're not too small and agile

do not use them as primary weapons, your craft will die and you will be sad

for some reason 50% of the newbies I see in pubs are suiciding tiny wings of bomb craft into enemy PD and complaining they can't do anything and I could not stress the fact that this is a terrible idea strongly enough

[mint sinew]

They are called bombers not rocketeers for a reason /s

[deft current]

At what range do stuff like rockets get shot away from fighters?

[wary flame]

what do you mean shot away?

you can't destroy a plane's weapons independent of the plane, if that's what you're asking

the max range of a plane's weapons is displayed on the weapon itself, but in practice you want to fly a lot closer

2-3km is normal rocket launch range

[deft current]

That I mean yes, I’m tired and my English part of my brain is just dead rn

[supple sonnet]

3km is chancy if you don't have jamming suport in our experince wiht r-2s at least

[deft current]

Is there a more solid range?
I’m trying to link up missiles to rockets so that’s why I’m asking

[wary flame]

fly to optimal rocket range, fire everything

the missiles will look after themselves

firing rockets at their max range just creates fireworks, damn near everything can dodge that

[supple sonnet]

It's pretty nebulous as yeah rockets lose effective rang when there target is moving. you can launch from further agents stationary missile frigs sitting whit out radar but you do need to get closer to anything that can dodge or has good PD coverage

[deft current]

Say is it normal that fighters won’t

Shoot S2 even at like 500m range?

I just had a entire squadron commit suicide by just circling and circling without firing these damm S2

[wary flame]

They should shoot S2s, bombs can be a bit finnicky but I've never had a problem with S2s

[deft current]

Yeah just tried again and I think it was terrain and line of sight bug

[bitter furnace]

Wait WHAT you can do this now?!

I gotta test this holy

[wary flame]

bowtank orbit dodge lineship real?

[glad aurora]

bowtank longyard obelisk...

I need to make this immediately

[glad aurora]

IT WORKS

there's a citmag, an rdc, and an aux steering in the nose

there's a rapid team buffed by a DCC and a DC complex repairing everything in the nose

this is incredible

I need to see if it works on non-superfiring hulls

[bitter furnace]

HOLY FUCK IT DOES

this is actually insane

this may actually be completely busted

[bitter furnace]

it works on Zircon too which is all four turrets on the same level

[glad aurora]

it doesn't need to be superfiring, indeed

[rigid bison]

A new era in plas-100 liners is upon us

[glad aurora]

auto-gen names when I finish rolling PD layouts:

• The Holey Boner
• Whack

it's perfect

[quiet quiver]

Some AN yubber making eager HEKP noises RN

[bitter furnace]

oh shit, you're absolutely right

HEKP would cleave this build into the ground like nothing we've seen since the AvA days

[mint sinew]

We love self balancing meta options

[glad aurora]

I would simply not be HEKP'd

[wary flame]

flechette cudas defend me

can you get two obelisks and an MN launching pikes and PD cudas?

a little bit of EO pike would help this a lot

[glad aurora]

I just put in a tug for offset jam and gave them omnisoftkill

(warbler-lyre-offset bellbird-chaff-flares-blackjack)

what are they going to do about it, HEKP me through 54 barrels of 100flak?

[wet root]

Yes! It seems ridiculous! All your important bits are 3000km back in the back stack and Lineships actually have the horizontal thrust to orbit dodge

[wet root]

More HEKP in the meta is always a good thing too

[wet root]

The build I'm working on is 2x 1050-point Hammerheads and a 900-point Journeyman, just filled with cheap flechette Cudas and a couple EO Pikes

You can also swap two T30s for a pair of mounted small hangars and get four Flechette Skiffs + an EO Pike (or four fancy Cudas), it loses you a quarter of your 100mm DPS but you get 500 points to spare on spotters/cappers/missiles/whatever

[mint sinew]

Have you priced out Misc's pitch of bringing a monitor as a pocket cuda dispenser? Probably gives a midground option

[wet root]

I haven't, I'm sure it's reasonable

And gives you a natural Bloodhound mount

[sharp crow]

I was just thinking yesterday I should see if instastage still works

[glad aurora]

yeah I think it works

[olive blade]

its somewhere around 650

assuming like 6asf 2 halbard and a 2tc bloodhound

probably can fit 9asf but the mag might be a little tight

[mint sinew]

That's not a bad deal at all

[olive blade]

yeah

might be closer to 700 with bells and whistles but

I do think cheap jman is interesting as a space

and as much as I am fixated on hunting battleships

a few sturgeons with guns load real fast and are pretty nasty

and cost fuck all munitions wise

[supple sonnet]

So.. Basically, Obelisks can now fire off the bow?

[oak shell]

Yep

[supple sonnet]

well not with there 250's but that's not a huge price to pay aperntaly

[glad aurora]

not when you can just tank hits on a massive reinforced stack in the nose, nah

[supple sonnet]

As long as you can outrange beems that works, or at least that's what our experince wiht out Isaki truck has showen us as it has the same basic set up in it's bow

[dark dawn]

Minor update, everyone https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/887570/view/520828802612330991

Loads of bug fixes

Bombs are slightly less crap

[tulip vault]

• Added button to craft editor loadout matrix to add a missile template to the fleet without having to go to the missile editor.

that's so nice

[wary flame]

trying to figure out how to make bombs less overpowered while not making them impossible to use has not been an easy task

this will help

[dark dawn]

On one hand shorter release time, on the other shorter range so they should be
Better? But also the bombers themselves will have to get closer to PD range

[wary flame]

the idea is to disable the hellbomb cheese that starts the attack run at around 2.8km to drop the first bombs just as they enter PD range, while making it easier to drop in other ways

ideally dropping bombs should get you murdered if the target has active PD

[dark dawn]

Which makes sense

I'm still not entirely sure why I'd use them in a world with size 3 rockets, but that's just me

[wary flame]

they break DT, they're easy to truck around the place on other builds, they can supplement basically any other weapon

the most basic combo is to rocket them to blast off all the PD and red out some stuff, then KBU them with the same Sturgeons for an instant kill

[rigid bison]

Are Bombcudas viable?

[wary flame]

viable for what

as a primary strike option against defended targets, no, for the love of god no, I keep saying over and over again that we nerfed the hell out of them precisely so you can't use them for that

for finishers, yeah sure

if you want to do damage to something that can fight back, take a real missile or a spread of rockets

[bitter furnace]

Bombs are very powerful, even before these changes. People just kept trying to use them as if they'd work against moving targets with PDTs still in operation, and that's very much not what they are for

they were annoying to use though, and this should make them a bit less so

[mint sinew]

Having escort fighters pick up bombs to drop onto stubborn Sollies that won't die is very satisfying and effective

Why would you want to do such a warcrime?
Consider the sign tapped: #the-rules message

[deft current]

Oh yeah fuck sorry

When depressed episode my humor becomes rather dark

[wet root]

Fixed exploit allowing player fleet colors to be set outside the 0.0-1.0 range.
Wait, I heard mention of glowing ships, is this what caused it? That's fantastic

[supple sonnet]

Fixed AI considering ships for the cringe capper role when they had passive sensors, FC radar, jamming, illumination, or directable sensors.
Oop.

[mint sinew]

Send the lockvette directly to A, it'll have a great view

[supple sonnet]

I have discovered something very funny.

Specifically: The AI doesn't know what to do with rocket Ocellos.

[mint sinew]

Does anyone really?

[supple sonnet]

It should have been given Heavy Frontline or Force Recon. It got Backline Spotter.

[mint sinew]

Sensor boat with some self defence tools, makes sense to me

[supple sonnet]

Here's genuinely how it figured it out:

FAIL: +20 for Hull weight class InRange Light and Medium [Total: 0]
PASS: +50 for having capability DirectableSensor [Total: 50]
FAIL: -1000 for not having capability DirectableSensor [Total: 50]
PASS: +5 for having capability PassiveSensors [Total: 55]
PASS: +20 for Radar Sensor range Greater 1000 [Total: 75]
PASS: +20 for having design property IndependentOperator [Total: 95]
FAIL: +30 for OffensiveWeapons point ratio Less 0.1 and 0.1 [Total: 95]

It just looked more Backline Spotter-y than General Frontline-y.

So I need to give it better DamCon.

[runic torrent]

Oh hey my bug I reported got fixed

Nice feeling

[quiet quiver]

Note that R-3 is 2 pts for 3000 damage at 50/ray, KBU-22 is 1 pt for 2500 damage at 100/ray. R-3s have way more speed and toughness but no way is it an unconditional upgrade to bombs

[runic torrent]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sV8T3PZMrYo

[supple sonnet]

trying to make a dedicated anti-craft fleet, but i think we went too far in with our own

[lime jungle]

Fleet 'Levy Hunters ACT-CMARAD' is composed of 2 ships that cost 3000 points:

     The Sun : 'Levy' class Escort Carrier [Sensor PD]
Six of Wands : 'Sprinter' class Corvette [Gun PD]
```This fleet uses 4 different missile types:
```yaml
         SDM-158 Welcome Mat : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR) - HE FRAG [8pts]
SGM-166 No Thank You, Please : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR) - HE FRAG [2pts]
           SGM-259 Shoe Rack : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR)/ARAD(RADAR) - HE SHAPED [9pts]
   SGT-3-0 Sunk Cost Fallacy : DIRECT - CMD/ARAD(RADAR) - HE SHAPED [14pts]

[glad aurora]

you really do not need three spacecraft repair slots

especially when that means you don't get to take any deck gear lockers

[quiet quiver]

Carrier also doesn't need comm strength, the built-in antenna is enough

4 sundials is pretty expensive too, I'd cut that back

I sorta dig the pinard, but don't think the second one is worth it

[glad aurora]

you also don't need a secondary antenna either

if you get jumped by enough force to knock out components on your carrier, that's it

[quiet quiver]

I'm slightly less of a pessimist there but no antenna is not what you're worried about losing

[supple sonnet]

fair, we were trying to build for an anti-craft role and thought it'd be best to have extra repair spots to help extend our tantos' lifetimes

Ash And Gold ↩️

[Reply to:](#1164000873031151637 message) you really do not need three spacecraft repair slots

also, we were mostly just trying to help ensure that we could defeat comms jamming, although we aren't sure extra how well that'd work

Ash And Gold ↩️

[Reply to:](#1164000873031151637 message) you also don't need a secondary antenna either

o7, we were on the fence on keeping it with 2, but we thought 2 plus backups (or for extra sorties to ensure our team has maximum radar coverage possible) was a decent idea for the price

Techhead ↩️

[Reply to:](#1164000873031151637 message) 4 sundials is pretty expensive too, I'd cut that back

we'll be sure to swap a repair shop for a gear locker, and probably the antenna for a s1 (or s2?) vls

the pinards,,,,, /shrug

it's a backline ship that's meant to stay out of range, it seemed like a decent idea

all our skiffs and sundials have elint too, so we figured it'd be good to supplement that

all in all, with ans being the missile faction, we figured, okay, how can we play into that and try to deny the other faction their best aspect as best as we can, y'know? so, sensors and space superiority

[tulip vault]

hey @wet root have you made any progress with your hammerhead liners? I've put together some of my own but I'm interested to see what other people have been up to

[sharp crow]

speaking of those, I was wondering

as someone who hasn't played plasma/100mm in a long time, those ships are usually really strapped for power right?

[wet root]

I've only had the chance to run them in a single game, but it went well enough there. These ones are on the cheaper side so I can squish an air defense Jman in

[lime jungle]

Fleet 'Hammerheads - CVL v2' is composed of 3 ships that cost 3000 points:

Pyre : 'Marauder' class Line Ship [Gun Plasma Sensor]
Ally : 'Marauder' class Line Ship [Gun Plasma Sensor]
Hymn : 'Journeyman' class Light Carrier [Gun]
```This fleet uses 4 different missile types:
```yaml
          SGM-100 Balestra : DIRECT - SAH(RADAR) - HE SHAPED [1pts]
 SGM-100 Balestra Block II : DIRECT - PSV(WAKE) - HE FRAG [1pts]
SGM-100 Balestra Block III : DIRECT - HOJ(RADAR) - HE FRAG [1pts]
 SGM-100 Balestra Block IV : DIRECT - SAH(RADAR) - HE FRAG [1pts]

[wet root]

Power constraints are why I went with only 4x T81s per ship, and they're still running with no real leeway, I'm a noob w/r/t plasma though, so IDK if that's too little

[tulip vault]

oh huh

yeah I mean I guess you can do the mixed armament

here I'll grab what I have

[lime jungle]

Fleet '3.0k - Hammerheads' is composed of 3 ships that cost 3000 points:

Taker : 'Marauder' class Line Ship [Gun PD Ewar Sensor]
Giver : 'Marauder' class Line Ship [Gun PD Sensor Ewar]
Anvil : 'Flathead' class Monitor [Plasma]
```This fleet uses 2 different missile types:
```yaml
SDM-212 Saeth Manwl : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR)/PSV(THERM) - HE FRAG [5pts]
      SGM-101 Gwawr : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR) - HE FRAG [2pts]

[tulip vault]

I think you probably want another plasma fleet to hang with it but

[sharp crow]

see on ANS side I was thinking about bringing instastage back

but the warbler exists now so cmd is now less of a sure thing

[wet root]

Is the Warbler enough to break comms at instastage range vs a cr75?

[glad aurora]

yes, but only close to target

[glad aurora]

you can even go down to 3 T81s and be mostly fine

[sharp crow]

I guess you can EO instastage but then you're required to go to 3km range instead of CMD's 4km

[wet root]

I forget, does WAKE now see big ship plumes from all aspects, or is that just the thermal validator?

[wet root]

SAH instastage time

[tulip vault]

just the thermal validator

er

no

hold on

[sharp crow]

horrifying

[wet root]

I'm retracting my 👍

[wet root]

I actually think it's pretty solid, you're already in direct line of sight for instastage and close enough it's easy to avoid illuminating chaff

[glad aurora]

just use a backup

[wet root]

The problem is it takes a couple PD slots and you're at <4k range vs OSP

[glad aurora]

just the thermal validator

[tulip vault]

is the Wake-Thermal meant to see the big plume as a primary seeker or only as a validator?

[wet root]

I think it's supposed to be identical to normal wake as a seeker

[sharp crow]

my very normal gold plated CMD/EO missile

[supple sonnet]

SAH instastage is weird and finicky in our experience. and like Pyropes mushroom fleet was a coinflip IWRC

[tulip vault]

ah yeah okay the tooltip, not the description does make that clear

[wet root]

I admittedly haven't tested it much myself, any time I try to build a fleet with it the next hour is a blur and I come out with a galespam fleet instead

[sharp crow]

I was talking to grandar earlier today about gale plane strikes

[supple sonnet]

Hold on we have one that shold be updated to work post MN armor buff

[oak shell]

Can SAH plane strikes use illuminator pods?

[sharp crow]

yeah that's the idea, apparently it's pretty functional

[oak shell]

Or do the illuminators shut off when the planes turn around after launching?

[sharp crow]

we were brainstorming OSP SAH strikes with pikes

[supple sonnet]

The big thing that we seem to rember was inconsistant staging

[wet root]

They're mostly smart enough to keep them on target, the illuminator pods can also point backwards though

[tulip vault]

they're smart enough to guide them in

usually

I've got a fleet that does it

it's pretty good, if kinda high attrition on the planes

[wet root]

I've been consistently pleased by 1-point S1 SAH spam on craft

[sharp crow]

yeah he mentioned you doing it with tantos

[wet root]

(Mostly for anti-craft work but with a few loads of HEI for hitting everything except MNs)

[sharp crow]

personally I'm still on misc/ash's S2+screening S1 strikes

[toxic scaffold]

SAH instastage fleet. it needs some point reduction now. but it is functional

[lime jungle]

Fleet 'New-Old-Gales' is composed of 5 ships that cost 3167 points:

Duncan Idaho : 'Raines' class Frigate [Missile EWar]
Duncan Idaho : 'Raines' class Frigate [Missile EWar]
Duncan Idaho : 'Raines' class Frigate [Missile EWar]
Duncan Idaho : 'Raines' class Frigate [Missile EWar PD]
Duncan Idaho : 'Sprinter' class Corvette [PD]
```This fleet uses 3 different missile types:
```yaml
SGM-100 Leagaly A Missle : DIRECT - PSV(WAKE) - HE SHAPED [1pts]
           SGM-106 Ember : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR) - HE FRAG [2pts]
          SGM-H-233 Gale : DIRECT - SAH(RADAR)/PSV(WAKE) - HE SHAPED [8pts]

[wet root]

My main concern with ANS Gales now is that PDless frigblobs seem like a prime target for wandering craft

(And triple-seeker boxes)

Can probably just stick some SDM-2s in there for the first part though

[supple sonnet]

you could problay swap the VLS-1-46 for a VLS 2 and put SDMs and ADS in it and hae it work long enough to get a few strikes in

[glad aurora]

I use CMD/HOJ, CMD/ACT, and CMD/PULSE

[sharp crow]

I feel like if I'm already spending 50+ points on a hekp instastage missile I might aswell spring for the EO backup to almost guarantee the hit. not like anyone's bringing blackjacks, right

[misty storm]

CMD/PULSE?

[wet root]

ARAD that doesn't go for jamming

(But can be jammed)

[misty storm]

how do you get that

[wet root]

It's the same toggle as HoJ for ARAD

[misty storm]

i see

[glad aurora]

I bring blackjacks 🙂

[tulip vault]

horrible

[wet root]

Hm, I'll have to add a blacklist to my name list generator

(/j)

[sharp crow]

I'm saving cursed names for cursed ships

and this is a cursed ship.

[rigid bison]

.length

[quiet quiver]

I think double pinard is often gonna be awkward because a backline ship doesn’t want to be where enemies are on both sides of them, and a frontline ship has more important things to use the mounts for

But one is fine, just adjust your heading when you reposition

[supple sonnet]

yea, no, we get you

still tho, does it seem generally doctrinally sound? just, harry osp craft to deny them as much space control as possible

[glad aurora]

well.

[supple sonnet]

well, this does not achieve that, or well, that's an unachievable goal

[glad aurora]

if all of your tantos can go 1v2 with a moorline, you can win that fight

[supple sonnet]

with osp spacecraft. not full ships

[glad aurora]

yeah, that's what I mean - a Moorline's fighter complement

more to the point, I don't think it's a doctrine worth spending more-or-less-an entire fleet on with minimal strike capability

carrier slot's pretty contested as it stands

[supple sonnet]

okay, then, how would you build a fleet to suppress osp craft

i guess, question, does rpf actually work on osp craft or is taking that still a complete and total joke

[oak shell]

I think 250 RPF does well and 120 RPF does less well

[glad aurora]

I would bring triple 250CL

8km bubble of fuck you

that, or two frigs loaded with nothing but SDMs

[supple sonnet]

the last time we tried to do that to deal with shuttle and tugs we barely even tickled them, but sure, we'll do our best charlie brown impression

with a budget of how much?

Ash And Gold ↩️

[Reply to:](#1164000873031151637 message) that, or two frigs loaded with nothing but SDMs

[glad aurora]

TF Maple

it has two frigs of the correct description loaded with the only working SDM-2 design

[sharp crow]

sarissas seem like a solid zoning tool too

[wet root]

Fwiw my observation has been that the built-in repair station is enough, just because it fixes craft so fast - it's only a few seconds per craft - and also, launchpads are a lot less congested by the time craft have had a chance to go out, get in a tussle, and come back, it's not like the start of a match where a couple extra seconds per craft delays every subsequent launch

[junior heron]

Being a Beam Battleship has served me very well in the spacecraft fights.

[wet root]

I also bring The Cheapest Tantos though so they have a tendency to be unharmed or dead

[junior heron]

But on a slightly more serious note, Auroras have also done me very well... on my Ocello.
I don't know how different the two factions gameplans are for fighter stuff, but it seems like a good PD option for craft.

[wet root]

Having a craft squadron supporting a solid PD net also seems fairly effective, the PD coverage makes it hard for enemy fighters to cover their bombers against your fighters

Longer-ranged torp bombers might be able to circumvent that though

[sharp crow]

auroras can't reach out and protect the rest of your team I suppose

but then the inevitable moorline player can send out more cudas to protect other people

or escort planes from any other liners

[wet root]

I suspect the best answer for battlespace coverage against craft is cruise SDM-2, someone had a Vaux with a backpack of them last boat night that did work

[mint sinew]

Auroras do better than people think against low volumes of torps. If they full send strikes against you then you simply die

[sharp crow]

that was me I think

in the canyon game if you're talking about that one

[wet root]

Yeah that one

[supple sonnet]

new questions: can one of those reliably take out an osp craft, and, how many points worth of missiles is required to take out how many points worth of craft

Ash And Gold ↩️

[Reply to:](#1164000873031151637 message) it has two frigs of the correct description loaded with the only working SDM-2 design

[sharp crow]

I think the meta SDM one shots fighters and two shots bombers at 5 points per missile

[wet root]

The SDM~2s I've seen seem to pretty reliably take out one craft, sometimes multiple if they're clumped

[glad aurora]

yep

you still get run over by truly massed OSP flechette fighters performing their self-defense behavior, but oh well

[sharp crow]

and then the breadstick one shots bombers but is less good for fighters, also at 5 points per missile

[glad aurora]

not going to really do better

[wet root]

I think comparing it to craft points is hard since that varies widely depending on what loadout they're carrying, and carriers have such a high hull cost

[supple sonnet]

just. we want to know if there's any economical way to defeat them

Lark ↩️

[Reply to:](#1164000873031151637 message) I think comparing it to craft points is hard since that varies widely depending on what loadout they…

[sharp crow]

even an empty plane is more than 8 points so any sdm is gonna come out ahead

[supple sonnet]

we don't want to have to always throw wildly more points worth of missiles at cheap craft

[wet root]

I bring the cheapest planes and they run 12.5 points per loadout

Not including carrier

[wary flame]

big pile of cheap SDMs

the plane is 12.5pts but the carrier spot adds another 10 easily

[wet root]

Actually yeah, my 822-point Jman is probably the cheapest carrier you will ever encounter

[glad aurora]

that is unfortunately how AN craft defense works

[wary flame]

if you could actually just bring cudas at 12.5pts with no infrastructure you could deploy over two hundred

[wet root]

And with 23 'Cudas that's 36 points apiece

Or 33 points each if I bumped it to 35 Cudas

[glad aurora]

(this is also why just bringing ASF is a really bad deal - you need to pay for your infrastructure by killing people)

it's been kind of comical to tell my team "we're not bringing a carrier" and then the enemy's investment into anti-craft is just piss in the wind

almost always win those

[wary flame]

the frigate with two VLS-2s full of cheap SDMs is so efficient because the launchers cost a grand total of 40pts and the frigate is also a perfectly good spyfrig

[quiet quiver]

With no buff modules I think it's like 13 pts per hangar space at cheapest

[wary flame]

normally, spy frigates are vulnerable to carriers, but you kind of want them to throw a bunch of penny-packet fighters through open space at the SAM battery

[glad aurora]

"just don't get spotted" also works quite well

my sprinter bombers have been eating very good

[quiet quiver]

Oh wait, the 91 craft Moorline with internal hangars is only 1050 pts if stripped down to drive and CIC, that's 11.5/craft slot

[wet root]

The classic DCless 1k hull

[quiet quiver]

But yeah with normal DGL/FDTS investment and a radar you're looking at least 1200 before buying craft and ammo, that pushes you over 13 pts/space

[wet root]

This makes me realise how good of a deal backpack hangars on Marauders/Flatheads are

4 craft for 20 points, IIRC

(Assuming 0 opportunity cost for those slots ofc, which is rarely the case)

[quiet quiver]

On broadside Marauders those are low-value slots, but on MNs it's a big deal

[wet root]

And nowadays those could be warblers or defensive S2 launchers

[quiet quiver]

Jman... normal investment with triple-hangar is like 480 pts for 28 spaces, that's 17 pts/space

(With the more typical double hangar down at 24-25 slots it's worse at 19-20/space)

[wet root]

And good luck getting any missiles in a triple-hangar Jman

[glad aurora]

you'd be surprised

[night fable]

Alright, lab rats, it's time for more Friday Night Fleet Command! I'm live RIGHT NOW with more multiplayer skirmish games with viewers in NEBULOUS: Fleet Command, on my Twitch channel below!
https://www.twitch.tv/docvivileandra <@&942093958551588904>

[wet root]

Though actually I should check the space in a bulk mag

Vivistream while I'm at work 😭

[quiet quiver]

Levy with buffs is 700+ pts for 42 (normal triple hangar) or 48 (cringe quad hangar) spaces, that's 17 pt/space or 15 pt/space, respectively

[quiet quiver]

A 6x1x8 slot has 720 cu m of space, which is the biggest non-XL slots a Jman or Levy has

[wet root]

How does that compare to an rmag in the smallest XL slot?

[quiet quiver]

On the Jman:

[glad aurora]

two bulk mags are equivalent to giga-rmag

[wet root]

Huh, I might be able to squish my ammo in a bulk and get more Barracudas

[glad aurora]

I run triple hangar on all my jmen that aren't double strikedown memeing

[wet root]

Eeexcellent

[quiet quiver]

But also two bulk mags here means just two DGLs and no DC

[glad aurora]

you don't need DC

[wet root]

I definitely need DC

And this is coming from me

[glad aurora]

embrace gaming

[wet root]

But I think I'm using just barely over half the mag already

[lime jungle]

Fleet 'The omniloadout tm' is composed of 1 ship which costs 1080 points:

Sweat Cut : 'Journeyman' class Light Carrier []
```This fleet uses only one missile type:
```yaml
SGM-17 Sparrow-P : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR) - HE FRAG [2pts]

[wet root]

That seems to be missing something important

[glad aurora]

huh, wonder how it lost the CIC

[mint sinew]

Can't lose your CIC if you didn't bring one

[glad aurora]

just put the CIC in the empty slot

[wet root]

Also, bah, those missiles are too pricey for my taste

[glad aurora]

also probably switch the skiffs for proper advr skiffs, I haven't updated this since testing

so right now they're 2x35mm skiffs instead of 1x35mm 1 AdvR, I suspect

[wet root]

No 20mm on the Cudas?

[glad aurora]

nah

it's the omniloadout™️, so it has 35mm nosegun, rockets, fuel, jammer, two S1s

[quiet quiver]

If you're going pure ASF Jman single bulk is very doable, this is 30 sorties of The Guy

[misty storm]

The Guy...

[quiet quiver]

Or as I call it, JAFFT (jam, act, fuel, flech, twenty)

[wet root]

Is 35mm nosegun better than 20mm? I have no idea how effective flechette is comparatively

[glad aurora]

yes, very much so

[quiet quiver]

(No one but me calls it JAFFT)

[glad aurora]

The Guy just brings 35mm gunpods and 20mm nose to cut down on price, but having 35mm flechette is a big deal

[wet root]

Consider: JAFFY (this is more reasonable than most military acronyms)

[quiet quiver]

Yenty mil

[wet root]

I'll probably swap my 20mm noses for 35mms then, good to know

[glad aurora]

JAFFA cake

(Jam ACT Fuel Flechette Anti-air gun)

[wet root]

Although is there value to having 20mm nose + 35mm pods, in terms of having different spread? Or better to just max out on 35mm?

[glad aurora]

20mm is cheaper

35mm nosegun makes the entire craft 2pts more expensive, as well

[quiet quiver]

Nose 35 is pretty good but also costs 2 pts and has less DPS on not-dodgy stuff like bombers

[wet root]

Oh right nose gun itself costs 2

I was thinking just the .5 or whatever extra ammo cost

(Per sortie)

[quiet quiver]

Per sortie costs with JAFFT is 5.5, with a nose 35 it's 6. And yeah the 2/frame too. So frame + ammo is 13.5 vs 16

[wet root]

Or 11.5 vs 14 for me, so even bigger relative difference

[quiet quiver]

If you want cheaper missiles, take one wake and one warheadless act :v

[wet root]

SAH with a couple wake and HoJ sprinkled in for taste costs the same and actually kills things

Also does AMM duty

[rigid bison]

Creature

[oak shell]

I don't hate it tbh

[olive blade]

I had some issues with my ship shooting itself

with the t20s

when I was trying this out

this was me messing around with bowtanking plas 100

[bitter furnace]

Probably not, it's only 166% the power of an Interrupt and the CR75 is very stronk. The Warbler's meant for defeating the CR10s of Claymores really

[olive blade]

oh right hazel hates my fleet names one sec

[wet root]

Yeah, that's part of why I have the plas at the front in mine, I was occasionally toasting my nose if it was in the back

[lime jungle]

Fleet 'A' is composed of 3 ships that cost 3000 points:

Discord Forward Laundering : 'Marauder' class Line Ship [Gun Plasma PD Sensor]
     Trickle Down Coconuts : 'Marauder' class Line Ship [Gun Plasma PD Sensor]
              Crew Wiggler : 'Flathead' class Monitor [PD]
```This fleet uses 3 different missile types:
```yaml
                    SDM-220 Naginata M7R-X : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR)/PSV(WAKE) - HE FRAG [5pts]
SGM-199 Classical Music to Deter Teenagers : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR) - HE FRAG [2pts]
             SGM-200 Vren's Breadstick 2.0 : DIRECT - PSV(WAKE)/ACT(RADAR) - HE FRAG [5pts]

[olive blade]

still unrenamed and shamelessly stolen missiles abound

I didn't find the plasma an issue just the t20s

[wet root]

Might be a hull shape distinction

It bothers me that you're not bringing another hangar on that MN, when you've got the spare slot

Internal that is

[olive blade]

yeah

I think I should probably just trim some stuff for a trio of cudas

honestly the ship was mostly to get me eo balls

so I can see how my plasma is doing and such

[wet root]

Yeah, that's why I have the craft on mine, EO balls seem kind of ridiculous

Unjammable undetectable locks from 8k, don't mind if I do

[olive blade]

EWR is also a real consideration for the brick

though I think with the current halbards with radars everywhere

I don't think its the must have it once was

[wet root]

Just sticking a cheek EWR on it is still really nice though, if nothing else it helps you find their AWACS

[quiet quiver]

It might actually, b/c torpcello's C75 beats 1 interrupt at a very specific range, it certainly won't stop the staging but I think it'll lose track partway

[glad aurora]

I can guarantee it does, I was testing ISCL for awhile

[lime jungle]

Fleet 'A' is composed of 3 ships that cost 3000 points:

     Trickle Down Coconuts : 'Marauder' class Line Ship [Gun Plasma PD Sensor]
Discord Forward Laundering : 'Marauder' class Line Ship [Gun Plasma PD Sensor]
              Crew Wiggler : 'Flathead' class Monitor [Sensor]
```This fleet uses 4 different missile types:
```yaml
                    SDM-220 Naginata M7R-X : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR)/PSV(WAKE) - HE FRAG [5pts]
                            SGM-100 Guylet : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR) - HE FRAG [2pts]
SGM-199 Classical Music to Deter Teenagers : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR) - HE FRAG [2pts]
             SGM-200 Vren's Breadstick 2.0 : DIRECT - PSV(WAKE)/ACT(RADAR) - HE FRAG [5pts]

[glad aurora]

you need a backup at least to make it go straight

[olive blade]

some revisions

[wet root]

I like the SALS for anticraft

Did you not have the power budget for the fourth plasma gun, or do you just prefer 3x?

[olive blade]

SALS?

I thought 3 was the number from the old days

but maybe 4 is better idk

[mint sinew]

Single arm launcher

[olive blade]

ah yeah

I think its worth having a little fuck off bubble

[mint sinew]

3 was my old number, but these hammerheads get access to more T20s which could make 4 justifiable

(though I still feel 3 is the go thanks to power problems)

[olive blade]

I guess axfords lost some armour

hmm

or wait no was that CLs

I don't see how it would have changed but hmm I can trial 4

has anyone done big testing it seems like one of those topics someone would have

[glad aurora]

I run 5/3

[olive blade]

5 T30 3 Plas?

[wet root]

That's been my thought, they get double the 100mm output of obelisks. But OTOH plasma definitely has diminishing returns, so IDK

[mint sinew]

I'd probably err heavy of 100mm sure to the current craft oversupply

[supple sonnet]

alright, in reciept of advice, an updated bully fleet

[lime jungle]

Fleet 'Axford Knuckledusters ECT-ACTTHRM' is composed of 3 ships that cost 3000 points:

  The World : 'Axford' class Heavy Cruiser [Gun PD Sensor]
 The Lovers : 'Vauxhall' class Light Cruiser [Gun Missile PD EWar]
Muggy Sound : 'Sprinter' class Corvette [Gun PD]
```This fleet uses 2 different missile types:
```yaml
SDM-294 Stern Rebuke : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR) - HE FRAG [5pts]
  SGM-295 Flyswatter : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR) - HE FRAG [5pts]

[lime jungle]

Fleet 'Axford Knuckledusters ECT-ACTTHRM' is composed of 3 ships that cost 3000 points:

  The World : 'Axford' class Heavy Cruiser [Gun PD Sensor]
 The Lovers : 'Vauxhall' class Light Cruiser [Gun Missile PD EWar]
Muggy Sound : 'Sprinter' class Corvette [Gun PD]
```This fleet uses 2 different missile types:
```yaml
SDM-294 Stern Rebuke : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR) - HE FRAG [5pts]
  SGM-295 Flyswatter : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR) - HE FRAG [5pts]

[glad aurora]

pure act SDMs will not hit

[supple sonnet]

they're act/thrm

i don't think hazel knows what that is yet tho

[glad aurora]

you can't use therm on ANS

so it appears it just deleted the seeker

[supple sonnet]

ah

[glad aurora]

(not that you need therm, the way craft wake works is that craft are point sources)

(just use wake)

[supple sonnet]

yea, we'll just swap to wake

[misty storm]

Aren’t craft coded to fire wake missiles at rear aspect only though?

[wet root]

I assume they're still only visible from rear aspect, they just don't create wake particle trails like ships

@quiet quiver could you update the boat night pin btw?

[quiet quiver]

Next boat night at <t:1737230400:F> <t:1737230400:R>

[quiet quiver]

Also for those interested, Neb discord in the middle of a carrier/craft design presentation. Currently still going over the basics

[supple sonnet]

i am once again getting up to battleship chicanery

[lime jungle]

Fleet 'Solomon Beams P-VOL-ACT-ACTWAKE' is composed of 2 ships that cost 3000 points:

The Hanged Man : 'Solomon' class Battleship [Beam PD EWar Sensor]
 Two of Swords : 'Sprinter' class Corvette [Missile Gun PD]
```This fleet uses 5 different missile types:
```yaml
         SDM-294 Stern Rebuke : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR)/PSV(WAKE) - HE FRAG [5pts]
 SGM-166 No Thank You, Please : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR) - HE FRAG [2pts]
   SGM-167 Unfortunate Mishap : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR) - HE FRAG [2pts]
SGM-284 Situation Complicator : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR)/PSV(WAKE) - HE SHAPED [5pts]
           SGM-295 Flyswatter : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR)/PSV(WAKE) - HE FRAG [5pts]

[lime jungle]

Fleet 'Solomon Beams P-VOL-ACT-ACTWAKE' is composed of 2 ships that cost 3000 points:

The Hanged Man : 'Solomon' class Battleship [Beam PD EWar Sensor]
 Two of Swords : 'Sprinter' class Corvette [Missile Gun PD]
```This fleet uses 5 different missile types:
```yaml
         SDM-294 Stern Rebuke : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR)/PSV(WAKE) - HE FRAG [5pts]
 SGM-166 No Thank You, Please : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR) - HE FRAG [2pts]
   SGM-167 Unfortunate Mishap : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR) - HE FRAG [2pts]
SGM-284 Situation Complicator : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR)/PSV(WAKE) - HE SHAPED [5pts]
           SGM-295 Flyswatter : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR)/PSV(WAKE) - HE FRAG [5pts]

[olive blade]

@wary flame how are containers doing these days?

[wary flame]

very well

R-3 containers for big stuff (vaux and up), R-2 containers for small stuff (vaux and down) and a few very expensive bomb containers for finshing capitals

toss in a few basic HEI crates to comb the enemy backline with EACT cones and find any carrier that didn't spend 25-50pts on PDTs

seekers are still a little shoddy but the combination of not being softkillable once you've staged, customizable stage range, pulsed ARAD and [therm] has helped a fair bit and rocket boxes are very affordable now

[quiet quiver]

And you're also (unlike before) able to put penaids on rocket boxes if you really need them

[wary flame]

I literally haven't gotten to play this since carriers dropped because the Moorline slot is always super mega taken and I'm usually on ANS

[lime jungle]

Fleet 'Do Unto Others 1-bank' is composed of 1 ship which costs 3000 points:

Do Unto Others : 'Moorline' class Line Ship [Missile Gun PD]
```This fleet uses 10 different missile types:
```yaml
            CM-465 Meat Inspector : CRUISE - ACT(RADAR)/[PSV(WAKE)]/HOJ(RADAR) - HE SHAPED [5pts]
              CM-465 Tino Special : CRUISE - ACT(RADAR)/[PSV(WAKE)] - SUBMN [8pts]
                SGM-1 Repo Freeze : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR) - HE FRAG [2pts]
             SGM-100 Front Window : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR) - HE FRAG [2pts]
SGM-101 Ceremonial Arming Missile : DIRECT - PSV(WAKE) - HE SHAPED [1pts]
             SGM-108 Smoke Ring L : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR) - NONE [1pts]
             SGM-108 Smoke Ring R : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR) - NONE [1pts]
  SGM-200 Smoking Vape Canister L : DIRECT - CMD - HE SHAPED [7pts]
  SGM-200 Smoking Vape Canister R : DIRECT - CMD - HE SHAPED [7pts]
     SGT-363 Fraudulent Salad Oil : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR)/[PSV(WAKE)] - HE SHAPED [11pts]

[wary flame]

but this is my pet moorline build

S2 light strike, torp bombers, 24 cheap fighters and then 72 containers to fire everywhere

[glad aurora]

container liners are goddamn terrifying and something may need to be done about "softkill or die" as a thing

[wary flame]

not quite the one in the trailer but a descendant of the same concept

[quiet quiver]

Also have considered putting a MLS-3 on a CVLN so that if some PD corv shows up you don't need to launch bombers to throw a torp in its face

[olive blade]

cheers misc!

[wary flame]

same S2/S1 build on the light strike as usual, deauth half at a time

[glad aurora]

T30 works better most of the time, especially if it's covered in PD

[wary flame]

the basic plan is that you launch both your 6 fighters + 3 torp bombers at a time, threading in two squadrons of 4 S2 strike cudas whenever you feel you need them since you can put all 8 up at once by using the bomber pads

[wet root]

Wait how does this work with BSSJ? Does the container still exist after deploying or does the jammer vanish into the void when it launches?

[wary flame]

goes pop

[wet root]

:(

[quiet quiver]

Yeah unfortunately SSJ and BSSJ pop

Also if you have decoys you also need to adjust the stage range to give decoys time to deploy first

Because decoy launcher will also pop once it's done staging

[wary flame]

that is luckily quite easy

decoy + R3 containers are actually quite mean

[oak shell]

<@&942093958551588904> anyone up for some boats?

[rigid bison]

yeah

[oak shell]

OK give me a few minutes, something came up

[rigid bison]

@oak shell discovered that bombshells can and do work well into fighter clumps

[mint sinew]

The duality of hammerheads, one ate the entire HEKP strike, the other rolled an entire vaux group solo

[tulip vault]

glad to see them performing

[mint sinew]

Tried them with the LRT MN, will be swapping that out I think. It's just too slow to get escorts in the air

[wet root]

Only two hangars with no buff modules, I can see that

Even with five hangars and a DGL the Jman is sloooooow

[olive blade]

yeah thats fair

it definitely runs slow though the other ships load pretty fast

[pliant dove]

How do I get rid of the role for this again?

[quiet quiver]

There's a role bot but I handled it for you

[olive blade]

hmm mon checking it does take like 4 mins to load cudas up that is a bit much, it was getting the other shuttles and stuff fast enoguh I didn't expect that

I guess if you have a few elevators on it it gets a lot faster and they are nice for the gun

[runic torrent]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNFNlSp8hLw

Guys I just got introduced to the best thing

[sharp crow]

boat night looms

[runic torrent]

<@&942093958551588904> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNFNlSp8hLw

(channels open)

[wary flame]

boat (boat)

[runic torrent]

I would like to play today

[sharp crow]

I will be there in a few minutes

[runic torrent]

but I am thinking about whether i wanna skip the first game or not

[glad aurora]

I shall be around for boat later but am brunching currently

[sly glade]

I haven't had time to design any fleets, but... I'm looking at the starter fleets and they're actually looking good enough that I could play in a second game potentially, using one of those

[oak shell]

Game 1

[glad aurora]

As a tester, the starter fleets are all excellent and are pretty cutting-edge

We spent awhile refining them

[sly glade]

yeah like it's been a long time for me but these fleets all like... fit well into recognizable archetypes, they look like (straightforward, relatively simple) fleets built by competitive players

[glad aurora]

I'd recommend playing Garnet or Kyanite on OSP and Oak on AN

Very straightforward fleets

[sly glade]

yeah I noticed those

[oak shell]

Game 2

[oak shell]

Game 3

[junior heron]

@wary flame do tanto coilguns get the 6km range of the regular sarissa coilgun?

[wary flame]

they do, but they have a different rule hard capping them at 1.5km

[junior heron]

oh...

[oak shell]

@runic torrent do you want my gale monitor fleet?

It's done okay in this patch

[runic torrent]

Oooh suure

[bitter furnace]

specifically, craft will only fire nose guns at things they can lock with their onboard 1.2km FCR since there's no chance of a hit otherwise

[wet root]

Server is PNET, password is lancer @bitter furnace

[wary flame]

yeah, Pyrope was wondering whether you could lock stuff with ship FCR and then deadeye it but that is not how that works apparently

[glad aurora]

I'd normally say "thank god for that" except at this point in balance, maybe it'd actually be a reason to bring ASF at all instead of them being a glorified way to make the ship's job doing the work easier

[lime jungle]

Fleet 'Monitors' is composed of 5 ships that cost 3000 points:

Bird (Disambiguation) : 'Flathead' class Monitor [EWar Ewar Missile]
       Bird (Gesture) : 'Flathead' class Monitor [EWar Ewar Missile]
      Bird (Airplane) : 'Flathead' class Monitor [Ewar PD Missile]
         Bird (Woman) : 'Flathead' class Monitor [PD Ewar Missile]
     Government Drone : 'Ferryman' class Clipper [Gun PD]
```This fleet uses only one missile type:
```yaml
SGM-233 Gale Block II : DIRECT - SAH(RADAR)/HOJ(RADAR) - HE SHAPED [4pts]

[oak shell]

Game 4

[quiet quiver]

Oh congrats

[wet root]

Congrats!

[glad aurora]

Congrats!

[supple sonnet]

Thanks!

[junior heron]

@wary flame to answer your question about the 1 game I played carrier, I have 256 missiles because each craft carries 8 s1 SAH missiles, and I've got like 18 of them
I don't know whether I should be counting on my flights coming back for multiple missions? I want to, but they seem so fragile

[wary flame]

I usually budget for 1.5 strikes per craft on ANS and 1 good strike (torps/S2s/whatever) and 1-2 cheap ones (rockets, bombs) on OSP

apart from A2A fighters which get thrown up and fight until they die

apparently SAH HEI S1 spam carriers are very strong right now, although I haven't tried it personally

[junior heron]

I see...

[quiet quiver]

@junior heron I'm not DLing and reuploading it but this is a link to the fleet from the gal who's been developing and messing around with SAH s1 Tantos a lot lately: #948127452721463337 message

To the degree of "I've not messed around with other fun builds b/c I've been addicted to this"

[junior heron]

that's probably where I read and got the idea from in the first place :P
I don't think I could ever run a carrier this light on components though...

too afraid of being found

[quiet quiver]

Hey, it has restores!

(1 per ship)

[olive blade]

damn thats nice

[junior heron]

bringing my own s1 SAHto fleet into a lobby

we randomed off of canyon into caltrop

and the lobby is 75% blues

[olive blade]

I don't really get whats up with the other missiles

[quiet quiver]

Just a spread of different s1 ACMs

[wet root]

That's quite similar to the Levy in my fleet, except significantly heavier on the anti-ship missiles

And fewer Tantos

[quiet quiver]

I think one of the wake ones has longer range than the other

[wet root]

I definitely recommend putting some bombs in there, because a chaff on a small ship will pull every single S1

[glad aurora]

bowtank obelisks have finally met their match 😔

HEKP CMD/ARAD instastage end their undefeated run at 8-1, 1000-940pts

[lime jungle]

Fleet 'Levy (S1 VS)' is composed of 2 ships that cost 3000 points:

Tuna : 'Levy' class Escort Carrier [Gun PD]
Tale : 'Axford' class Heavy Cruiser [Gun PD Sensor]
```This fleet uses 3 different missile types:
```yaml
SGM-100 ACRAFT-S : DIRECT - SAH(RADAR) - HE FRAG [1pts]
SGM-100 ACRAFT-W : DIRECT - PSV(WAKE) - HE FRAG [1pts]
 SGM-100 ASHIP-S : DIRECT - SAH(RADAR) - HE SHAPED [1pts]

[junior heron]

update: I killed some small stuff, got hit by 1 strike, repaired my engine and internal hangar, then died to a second strike

[glad aurora]

well-piloted yub just counters carriers, yeah

[junior heron]

PD frigate is still hanging out though

[wet root]

(Unless they keep a few squadrons back as PD cover, which is that much less offensive force on the field)

[quiet quiver]

Meanwhile on stream, a completely ordinary carrier fleet

[junior heron]

hmmmm

[quiet quiver]

(Checked that no players are in this channel)

[glad aurora]

oh, speaking of yub

how did the yubDDs do in the last boat

[supple sonnet]

Were they they ones that HEKP'd one of my bulkers? if so they did ok, but that was the only missle stroke i noticed doing much

though one of mu bulkers did go from green to deadwhile shapiing ammo at one point and i don't know what got it

[glad aurora]

also me, I believe

but yeah, I was the S2H flying around

[quiet quiver]

Which map was it on?

[junior heron]

[not-really-]squished canyon

valley

[glad aurora]

very last match of the night

I know I killed three LNs and a MN with the beams, but apparently that was only 15k of the damage and so I'm wondering what the actual effect of the S2H strikes were

[quiet quiver]

Ahh yeah. Though the intelMN didn't die, just lost drive

[supple sonnet]

Mostly ignorable untill they gutted two skeli liners.

But you did run us out of PD ammo

And AMMs

[quiet quiver]

Oh right, now I'm remembering

[glad aurora]

[quiet quiver]

I was wondering why one of my ships was vomiting AMMs and then went "oh, reasonable"

[glad aurora]

100flak deathballs are always really hell to get S2H through, and they've seemed a bit low damage as of late themselves, so I was wondering what it felt like to get hit by them

because the cruise is just so flexible versus my usual direct S3H+jamming, and you get two beams into the bargain, but you lose out on a ton of lethality

[quiet quiver]

Also yeah for a lot of the game I was making sure to keep the T20s open to respond, so in that sense it was lowering my DPS on the capitals

That and taking the time to safari around behind B instead of charging in with my second liner, but that was more due to the beams

[supple sonnet]

Yeah my LN's dont have rely have much of a state betwen "no noticable damage" and "basicaly dead" and you did get two of them

but i do think the spare 150 100mm round shold be flak and not HE

[glad aurora]

nah, HE is a good choice

if we had a capfleet you would've gotten more use out of it

[wet root]

I had an old fleet that was 3x S3H/Beam DDs, which I kind of prefer over the S2H variant, since the latter costs so much for not that many programming channels

[glad aurora]

The salvo number is the thing, though

S3H cruise is so punishing if you have the slightest mistake in salvo selection

[quiet quiver]

Also now a S2H+beam DD might be taking a few less offensives in favor of ACMs and/or ADs

[azure delta]

If I have an Intelligence Center, do I also still need a Scryer Missile ID System or does the Intelligence Center also fulfil the functions that a Scryer does? Does the Scryer have a function on it which isn't listed as a stat, or does it also stack with Intelligence Centers?

...I probably should.

[supple sonnet]

Scyers only do missles and do them a lot faster then the intellcenter can

[azure delta]

the Intel Center says 'Intelligence Effort does not stack'

which feels weird with Scryer

this is actually something i think is genuinely confusing.

[wet root]

It doesn't stack, but the Scryer has a modifier that increases its speed vs missiles

[azure delta]

okay, so how does it work?

if I have both, isn't only the better one going to be used?

the Intel Center has higher Effort than the Scryer, so it'd get used over the Scryer, yes?

[wet root]

So with an intel center and no scrier you will identify everything at a decent pace. With just a scryer, you will ID only missiles, very fast. With both, you will ID missiles fast and everything else at a decent pace

[azure delta]

okay, so having a Scryer system provides a modifier to missile identification speed?

[wet root]

I believe the speed modifier is accounted for in choosing which to use

[azure delta]

can an Intel Center organize point defense response like a Scryer can, or no?

[azure delta]

...so the thing about them not stacking is false, and you can actually have multiple intel centers, but only the one with the highest Effort for the target is used??

rather than the one with the highest Effort total?

[wet root]

That I don't know, but should be pretty easy to test in the range

[azure delta]

it is confusing overall, I'll test it some other time >.>

[wet root]

Actually, it looks like I was wrong here, from what I'm reading it will use the intel center instead, and thus be slower than if you had the scryer and no intel center

Worth verifying in the range, but TIL

[azure delta]

weird!

[azure delta]

how horrible of an idea is this?

[quiet quiver]

It will need to be inside other ships' radar coverage to get tracks for the Aurora

[azure delta]

it will, yes

[mint sinew]

And if it is near another ship the prowler becomes less useful than another drive

[azure delta]

...does it?

[mint sinew]

Indirectly, if you are using this to escort a larger ship they'll already know where you are

[azure delta]

i guess it all depends on how good the radar of the other ship is?

[quiet quiver]

I think it's to hide the fact a PD escort exists

[azure delta]

something like that? Hm.

does the Aurora's integrated FCR give it good functionality even against bad tracks?

I'm gonna try it or something like it in combination with a Spyglass on a Raines tomorrow sometime maybe

's possible it needs to be paired up with a beefy Parralax instead.

[mint sinew]

Yeah, just need the other track to point it in the right direction to lock it

[azure delta]

oh! then this should work, yeah.

it'll just also be funky to use

ideally you want to spot hostile things you want to do PD against and have the hidden Aurora boat between the thing spotting and the things you want to PD

this has the potential to hit craft which believe they're safely outside of PD range with PD, and I think that's funny.

iunno if it's good, but it's funny.

[supple sonnet]

..Is 100/120mm backed up by 20mm a good idea or a terrible idea?

[noble zodiac]

as in like, a PD grid?

100 definitely, 120 not so much

[supple sonnet]

Eh? Why is 100 flak good but 120 not? Also hi Gamma. :3

[noble zodiac]

it kinda just... is, like the dps is way better, 120 might have a smaller trigger radius but im not sure, you can fit more T20s into an OSP fleet than Mk62s into an ANS fleet,

(also hi

[supple sonnet]

So how should you use 3x3s on ANS fleets if you want heavy AA?

Because bombers never get close enough to be worried by 50mm.

[noble zodiac]

uhhhhh

VLS2 packed full of breadsticks and SDM

breadstick
(s2 anti bomber missile)

[supple sonnet]

Oh.

Does that work on OSP as well?

[noble zodiac]

OSP doesn't have VLS, they have the TALS

it... sorta kinda works

[supple sonnet]

Oh right. They have the bandits.

Do defensive missiles go after spacecraft?

[noble zodiac]

depends what their doctrine settings are

[noble zodiac]

the bandits aren't nearly as robust of an AA net as VLS are, because of the reload time, but they do help

[supple sonnet]

Mm. So stick with 100 on OSP?

[noble zodiac]

pmuch yeah

• have ASFs of your own in a backpack or somesuch

[supple sonnet]

I find it funny how yes, OSP is inadvertently designed to have a WW2 PD net, vs the 19..80s? PD net that the ANS wants.

[sharp crow]

hmmm, the main nebcord is hosting a tournament

is that something folks would be interested in? gonna be running from the 15th of feb onward

[glad aurora]

yes, I'm looking for a team

[oak shell]

What times are these games being played?

[olive blade]

thats probably more dc than I'd give it, and I'd give it a little gun and a radar that can just stay turned off when you want the pd up, or a s1 vls with one maybe more offensive missiles so it can cap later in the game and maybe fight a single clipper for one

I think a pd sprinter is fine as an idea, but its worth spending a couple more points to let it do an entire other useful role

(also you might as well put an empty mag on it to sponge hits)

[azure delta]

it cannot fit radar with 2x aurora

just doesn't get the power

[olive blade]

yeah

you turn the radar off

mostly

then turn it on if you want to use the little gun

[azure delta]

ah. that's... fair, i guess? doesn't that make 'em a lot more expensive for minimal benefit?

[quiet quiver]

12 pts for a gun and two kinds of ammo, 10 pts for frontline radar

Also didn't notice reinforced thruster nozzles until just now, you can drop that

[azure delta]

yeah, that and the small DC are safe to drop

[olive blade]

I think being able to contest caps is a huge benefit

personally

scrappy little actions on caps 35 minutes in often decide games

[supple sonnet]

would anyone be up to helping us re-learn neb in the face of the carrier update today?

we have a few (maybe) craft-hardened fleets ready, but honestly,,,, we are. kind of lost and have no idea where to even start

[warm gulch]

i feel you

my gay ass is still trying to remember how ELINT works

[supple sonnet]

it's a sniffer

people turn on radar and you go sneef snorf with a couple of elint modules and you get a track on them

(it's not very good 😔 )

[sharp crow]

sewacs fitting elint modules can be quite nice

[supple sonnet]

I can try to help in a bit.

17, handheld catgirl fool (she/it) [sylvania] ↩️

[Reply to:](#1164000873031151637 message) would anyone be up to helping us re-learn neb in the face of the carrier update today?

[tulip vault]

It detects active radars at 1.5x (I think, might be 1.25x) the radar’s detection range as a bearing, telling you what kind of radar it is. Multiple bearings on the same radar can form a crossfix

[warm gulch]

realising that ELINT is a specific thing and not a catch all word for "how do sensors work"

damn i really am out the loop

[sharp crow]

elint is the thing that gives you many purple lines, if that rings a bell

[warm gulch]

yeah not it does which is why i'm like "wait thats not what i mean"

i just dont remember what all the different sensors and scanners and jammers all do

[tulip vault]

Oh lol, sorry

I saw a question I could actually answer pretty confidently, I apologize

[warm gulch]

nothing to apologise for

[azure lake]

ELINT is super good for missile oriented fleets

[wary flame]

I have an interview in an hour and a half but I'll be around after that

[supple sonnet]

for sure

sorry, we got pulled into a decent war thunder squad and have been pretty thoroughly distracted

I'm ready to help whenever but.. Misc is much better than I am.

alright, we're hopping on now

[lime jungle]

Fleet 'Axford Shilkiller VOL-EOCMD' is composed of 2 ships that cost 2980 points:

The Fool : 'Axford' class Heavy Cruiser [Gun Missile EWar PD Sensor]
The Star : 'Keystone' class Destroyer [PD Beam Sensor]
```This fleet uses 3 different missile types:
```yaml
SGM-H-340 None : CRUISE - PSV(EO)/[CMD] - HEKP [55pts]
SGM-H-341 None : CRUISE - PSV(EO)/[CMD] - HE SHAPED [41pts]
SGT-333 Sprint : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR)/HOJ(RADAR) - HE FRAG [13pts]

[lime jungle]

Fleet 'Solomon Beams P-VOL-ACT-ACTWAKE' is composed of 2 ships that cost 3000 points:

 The Hanged Man : 'Solomon' class Battleship [Beam PD EWar Sensor]
Three of Swords : 'Sprinter' class Corvette [Missile Gun PD]
```This fleet uses 5 different missile types:
```yaml
SDM-127 Dynamic Recontextualizer : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR) - HE FRAG [8pts]
            SDM-294 Stern Rebuke : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR)/PSV(WAKE) - HE FRAG [5pts]
    SGM-166 No Thank You, Please : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR) - HE FRAG [2pts]
   SGM-284 Situation Complicator : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR)/PSV(WAKE) - HE SHAPED [5pts]
              SGM-295 Flyswatter : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR)/PSV(WAKE) - HE FRAG [5pts]

[lime jungle]

Fleet 'Axford Knuckledusters ECT-ACTAK' is composed of 3 ships that cost 3000 points:

    The World : 'Axford' class Heavy Cruiser [Gun PD Sensor]
   The Lovers : 'Vauxhall' class Light Cruiser [Gun Missile PD EWar]
Four of Wands : 'Sprinter' class Corvette [Gun PD]
```This fleet uses 2 different missile types:
```yaml
SDM-294 Stern Rebuke : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR)/PSV(WAKE) - HE FRAG [5pts]
  SGM-295 Flyswatter : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR)/PSV(WAKE) - HE FRAG [5pts]

[lime jungle]

Fleet 'Axford Knuckledusters ECT-ACTAK' is composed of 3 ships that cost 3000 points:

    The World : 'Axford' class Heavy Cruiser [Gun PD Sensor]
   The Lovers : 'Vauxhall' class Light Cruiser [Gun Missile PD EWar]
Four of Wands : 'Sprinter' class Corvette [Gun PD]
```This fleet uses 2 different missile types:
```yaml
SDM-294 Stern Rebuke : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR)/PSV(WAKE) - HE FRAG [4pts]
  SGM-295 Flyswatter : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR)/PSV(WAKE) - HE FRAG [5pts]

[lime jungle]

Fleet 'Solomon Beams P-VOL-ACT-ACTWAKE' is composed of 2 ships that cost 3000 points:

 The Hanged Man : 'Solomon' class Battleship [Beam PD EWar Sensor]
Three of Swords : 'Sprinter' class Corvette [Missile Gun PD]
```This fleet uses 4 different missile types:
```yaml
         SDM-294 Stern Rebuke : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR)/PSV(WAKE) - HE FRAG [4pts]
 SGM-166 No Thank You, Please : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR) - HE FRAG [2pts]
SGM-284 Situation Complicator : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR)/PSV(WAKE) - HE SHAPED [4pts]
           SGM-295 Flyswatter : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR)/PSV(WAKE) - HE FRAG [5pts]

[sharp crow]

wondering if I should start bringing a 500 point raines with like 60 SDM-2s in every fleet

[wary flame]

it solves a lot of problems

you can stick 100pts of S3H yub in there and clean up shuttles or even the carriers

[sharp crow]

hmm maybe

anti-shuttle can just be s2h

or even normal S2

can you really yub an OSP carrier through the inevitable barracuda swarm hovering around it?

[wary flame]

they aren't usually on defence duty

craft on RTB won't break off to do snapshots

[sharp crow]

interesting

I'm always scared to S3H because you only get like one real shot at using it

[wary flame]

the mag depth does sting, but it works

[sharp crow]

might be fun to have in the pocket on non-carrier lists though

[wary flame]

I use about 12 S3H in my capfleets

[sharp crow]

are your tanto strikes not enough

[wary flame]

no tantos in that fleet, levies are expensive

[sharp crow]

ah yeah fair enough

in a cap fleet I can see it

if I'm bringing this with a carrier though I feel like I just want to clear the skies for a bomber strike rather than try to yub

[wary flame]

unless you're attaching the yub to the carrier, yeah

[sharp crow]

gotta start pinging for pubulous again soon and try some of this stuff out

maybe tomorrow

[olive walrus]

Been toying with maybe giving a specific version of G'aad prosthetic arms

[runic torrent]

o.o wrong channel?

[olive walrus]

tsk tsk

correct

[runic torrent]

https://tenor.com/view/chinchilla-hamster-wheel-wheel-meme-chinchilla-wheel-gif-7152142089569095148

[olive walrus]

have some nebulous to balance it out

[glad aurora]

That's real cool.

[wary flame]

the green storm descends

this is a giant meme build but if they don't have big anti-fighter defences it really works

[rigid bison]

Would 250mm vauxes be a viable defense?

[wary flame]

yeah, big blob of vauxes is hard to strike

especially with giant silly wings like these

the upside of this kind of config is that when it gets through it really gets through and you can delete three destroyers in a single run

[glad aurora]

you either have an all-ASF Levy or 6 vauxhalls in a blob or you die

[wary flame]

nah, a decent SDM spread and a few fighters will do it as long as they engage at similar times

each of those 14-cuda squadrons only has seven 35mm guns and 14 SAH S1s between the lot of them

[wary flame]

cool new map - shipyard megastructure, every so often an NPC bulker will finish, fly out of the hole in the top and retreat-burn away

[junior heron]

neat

is it just a terrain thing, or does it actually register as a signature?

[wary flame]

I believe it's just terrain

not sure what happens if your ship is in the way

[junior heron]

I wonder how intricate you can get with terrain

could you do some sort of map where capturing points opened up tunnels or something

[glad aurora]

I know Puppy (?) made a map where I was playing at permanent TIDI because there were guns that shot you occasionally

[junior heron]

lol

[glad aurora]

people did not know before they opened the map, so occasionally they'd wander in front of the lasers and get absolutely owned in 2 seconds flat

[junior heron]

ooh

[wicked mirage]

I finally made a Levy fleet

[lime jungle]

Fleet 'Rose Garden (CV+Halfcap)' is composed of 4 ships that cost 3000 points:

   Rose Garden : 'Levy' class Escort Carrier [PD Missile]
     Red Bloom : 'Sprinter' class Corvette [PD Gun]
Scarlet Wreath : 'Sprinter' class Corvette [PD Gun]
  Forever Fall : 'Sprinter' class Corvette [PD Gun]
```This fleet uses 9 different missile types:
```yaml
    SDM-101 Silver Flash : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR) - HE FRAG [7pts]
     SDM-131 Rosary Bead : DIRECT - CMD - HE FRAG [12pts]
    SGM-100 Celica Thorn : DIRECT - CMD - HE SHAPED [7pts]
             SGM-106 Dia : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR) - HE FRAG [3pts]
        SGM-13 Esuna v.B : DIRECT - CMD - HE FRAG [5pts]
           SGM-200 Basil : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR)/[CMD] - HE SHAPED [9pts]
SGM-263 Vermillion Thorn : DIRECT - CMD/HOJ(RADAR) - HE SHAPED [9pts]
    SGM-H-241 Silverbell : CRUISE - ACT(RADAR)/[PSV(EO)] - HE SHAPED [18pts]
     SGM-H-242 Hollybell : CRUISE - ARAD(RADAR)/ACT(RADAR) - HE SHAPED [15pts]

[wicked mirage]

The idea is to escort allied ships with the Silver Thorns, while the Thornbeau hunt for isolated scouts. The Sunstones are Sundials with ELINT to find those isolated scouts, and the Day Lilys are designed to escort the Sunstones and protect them from SDM's and/or a fighter or two. All the Tantos have some kind of extra fuel tank as well.

I'm not going for void superiority directly, just making sure my allies can mostly ignore any bombing runs or missile salvos that come for them while I scout and cap.

Meanwhile the Levy has some S2H that I can use to yub the naturals early on, and an Intel Center for the team.

It also has a single salvo of direct S2's and a little bit of DC just in case a rocket shuttle tries to run it down or something.

The Silver Thorns have Coilguns btw! And the other Tantos have 20mm.

I haven't tested this fleet yet, but I really hope it works lol

[sharp crow]

SDM-1 tantos are pricey but they definitely do the job

[sharp crow]

I'd try to fit some bombs too if you can spare a couple points. being able to knock out half dead cappers and tugs on the cheap is really quite nice

[sharp crow]

<@&942093958551588904> would anyone like to try for some pubulous?

[misty storm]

Perhaps

[sharp crow]

well, alas

[misty storm]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

id be down

but im not sure if theres anyone else

[sharp crow]

I would prefer a fuller stack

so another time

[misty storm]

yeh

[olive blade]

I must go to work

[wicked mirage]

Ok! Sounds good ^^

[wet root]

Congrats!

[quiet quiver]

RAD(M)

[wary flame]

I am the radmiral

[misty storm]

LT is the last blue rank right?

god i need to grind some matches so i can be considered not bad at the game anymore

[quiet quiver]

Simply be a fake blue and surprise others with your confidence, that's what I did as an LT

[astral pumice]

so erm

I bought nebulous, on a whim

I'm total trash in RTS

I'm honestly more looking towards the future SP campaign update

also, cool space boat

god I missed COADE

[quiet quiver]

The space boats very cool

[mint sinew]

Space boats very cool

[quiet quiver]

Also if you liked COADE there is a bit of shared DNA I think

[astral pumice]

oh yes, that's why I wanted this game for so long

COADE is, honestly just has so much flaw but it has the potential

Nebulous just takes it to the next level

[quiet quiver]

Compared to typical RTS Neb is pretty different, because you're executing fairly complex control over a small number of unreplenishable units

[violet root]

I would call it an RTO game

[quiet quiver]

I've seen RTT (real time tactics), but RTO?

Though speaking of similarity to other RTS, it's funny that the carrier update added the closest thing Neb's gotten to "build orders"

[violet root]

Real Time Operations

Being the tier of command between tactics and strategy

[mint sinew]

I'd always warn the old early access gem, don't buy for the game you hope it will be. We won't know for certain what the single player will look like until the next major update

But slamming boats together in skirmish for now is great fun (so says the people in this channel anyway)

[quiet quiver]

Ah. If you go into the tactical/operational/strategic split of wargaming, the bulk of RTSs are on the tactical scale (with weird ISRU unit production)

[violet root]

Ikik

I do want more logi-focused games

[astral pumice]

I also bought this game mostly to support the dev too even if it's not in line with my vision

game like these don't come often

[mint sinew]

So valid, it's certainly a special beast

[quiet quiver]

For actual strategic scale in real time I think you're looking at either RT games in the grand strategy subgenre, or outliers like Planetary Annihilation and Line War

[astral pumice]

oh yeah I also got a mic now, so communicating in multiplayer match won't be a problem, if I ever get into one

yes I know it's funny how I'm terrified of using my own voice for my videos while not caring one bit outside of it

playing coop games with my partner has been, an experience

[oak shell]

Heck yeah, pick up the role and join us for boat night sometime

[random grove]

We'd love to have ya Dragon

[astral pumice]

yay

[azure delta]

...i was just looking at my dumb carrier fleet and I have gone 'why do i have a bullseye on the carrier i do not have a single weapon which uses radar'

I have done terrible things here

[lime jungle]

Fleet 'The Party' is composed of 3 ships that cost 3000 points:

  Hem : 'Levy' class Escort Carrier [EWar Sensor]
Panic : 'Raines' class Frigate [PD EWar]
 Fire : 'Raines' class Frigate [PD EWar]
```This fleet uses 4 different missile types:
```yaml
 SGM-111 Unveiller : DIRECT - HOJ(RADAR) - HE FRAG [1pts]
   SGM-112 Buckler : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR) - HE FRAG [2pts]
    SGM-131 Dagger : DIRECT - SAH(RADAR) - HEKP [3pts]
SGT-322 Polehammer : CRUISE - PSV(WAKE)/[PSV(EO)] - HE SHAPED [13pts]

[azure delta]

i still need to test all of this.

and also probably improve things, cut some stuff down to store more munitions on the carrier or go with a second jammer over a bullseye because why do I have a bullseye aaa

the core idea behind this is 'command missiles are often used for point defense, right? What if I put a command jammer right up next to the thing trying to use command missiles for point defense' and it sort of evolved into the Disco Raines

i conceptually like the Unveiller missile a lot, but I've not a single clue if it's actually good. the idea is it'll be used against missiles with self-screening jammers

the biggest issue i think this fleet has is magazine depth- there's like, a couple UGB strikes and some sorta-Dagger strikes, and a decent-ish number of anti-missile & craft munitions but not a whole lot else

[mint sinew]

Yeah, excepting the bombs (that aren't proactive threats) you don't have a lot of ordnance if the skies are otherwise clear and you need to deal with actual ships

[azure delta]

doctrine-wise I'm likely to try to hit bigger targets with a few of the size1 ASMs and then UGBs after

maybe the funny engineseeker missiles. I'd just need to play it to see how to play, honestly.

[mint sinew]

Also, just processing things slowly apparently... WAKE[EO] torps?

What does that get you that WAKE[ACT] doesn't?

[azure delta]

yeah, wake torpedoes with EO validator

...EO validator hard to defeat? It's entirely possible I should be using semi-active validator instead of EO, idk

...probably not SAH validator because those aren't exactly reliable.

...it's slightly more validator reliability and harder to jam? I'm not actually sure how valuable that is

it is a pretty big points difference though, yeah.

I'm very fumbly with all of this and should actually play the game to test things instead of always fleet editor. i like the building the ships, i have trouble with the flying the ships.

[quiet quiver]

Okay, stuff you can definitely cut: The floodlights. The repair station. The second ARR. The bullseye. Some of that power

Can probably cut: The blanket, the first ARR, the spyglass, the annex

And do bring another DGL and another FDTS, and possibly a second of either (with your current loadout probably the latter)

You probably also want guns and gun ammo for your tantos

[azure delta]

are the noseguns actually any good?

[quiet quiver]

Ye

20mm is the standard, coilgun is the deluxe

[azure delta]

I don't think I can cut the blanket due to wanting to put the Raines with the PD & Command jammer close to the enemy

[quiet quiver]

Then the Raines needs it TBH, or put it on a sprinter that can follow it

[azure delta]

I didn't want to put it on the Raines because it increases radar signature

does jamming effectiveness fall off with distance?

[quiet quiver]

Yes, absolutely

[azure delta]

the jam calc i looked at implied to me that it didn't, but i guess that's not necessarily super accurate?

[quiet quiver]

So does radar pickup though (so it's actually easier to spot things as you close distance), but jamming will suffer if it's way behind the ship you're trying to hide

[azure delta]

I guess I can replace the Intelligence Center with a Citadel? I'm... I'd like to be able to spot targets at a distance and ideally identify stuff, thus the Floodlights & Spyglass.

I guess I should play with the radar tool more? Hm.

[quiet quiver]

TBH intel center is fine, spyglass is unusual but okay

Mostly concerned about ability to do carrier things

[azure delta]

this makes sense, yeah. My biggest concern is the lack of munition depth- but I'm not sure how much that is actually true? I'm considering cutting the small DC lockers on the Raines as well.

oh, I should look at a vanilla carrier fleet, I guess.

[quiet quiver]

Have you played with Maple or any other carrier fleets already?

[azure delta]

no, I haven't.

which is probably why my missiles aren't the ones that the Maple uses.

[quiet quiver]

I'd try out Maple, see how you perform with it, see what tools you like and which you don't

[azure delta]

that's fair. I often hesitate to leave slots empty

maple's damage control is generally concerning to me >.>

I guess they shouldn't be getting shot?

I can lmostycertainly not pilot a carrier fleet properly >.>

[quiet quiver]

Correct, don't get shot

[azure delta]

is mount gyros at all important for Aurora PDTs?

[quiet quiver]

Not really

[azure delta]

carriers can't launch while moving?

[mint sinew]

Only while slow

[quiet quiver]

Up to 15 m/s while moving forwards, 7.5 m/s in other directions

Use FQ throttle to automatically limit yourself to those speeds

[azure delta]

can one order fighters to not move in order to conserve fuel, or do they have to always be burning fuel?

[quiet quiver]

Always burning at least a little, but they burn less while idle than while cruising around

[mint sinew]

If you haven't done them yet, I recommend the carrier tutorials. They have a lot of this trivia baked in

[azure delta]

is there a way to order battle-short on some things but not others?

I'm noticing if you have EWAR + Auroras on the same ship, you'll battle-short the EWAR at inopportune times.

[quiet quiver]

You can cancel the ewar order in the order bar if you need to bshort just the auroras, but also the length of time auroras bshort it's not much of an issue for jammers

However if you want to bshort everything except auroras, you need to set PD to manual

[azure delta]

so i would need to explicitly micro the battleshort button if i want the auroras battleshorted and everything else not?

[quiet quiver]

Yeah, but auroras need you to micro the button anyway because they burn out quickly

[mint sinew]

Also in most situations that you are bshorting auroras you would rather the jammers stay up anyway (or have cancelled them yourself)

[azure delta]

is there a way to get ships to fire a specific volley of missiles, or no? Eg 'hey i want all of you to shoot missiles at this target at roughly the same time'
or like... idk.

I'm wanting to pre-build specific orders which can be then given to multiple ships and or fightercraft. nothing complicated, just like 'hey all shoot these missiles at this target' or 'hey load AP and then HE after the magazines are out' or 'hey fighters are to shoot these missiles first, then these other missiles' etcetera

strike plans, i guess.

it feels bad to be failing at mechanical execution in a strategy game i guess?

[glad aurora]

There is no way to do that, no.

Play the game. The skills come.

[mint sinew]

Alas, not systemically. Preprogrammed responses was originally on the plan but ended up out of scope

[glad aurora]

The starter fleets and the AI exist for you to be able to learn these things without either obfuscating the issue with a poorly built/nonfunctional fleet or worrying about whether you're dragging down a player team.

[mint sinew]

Things like formation orders bridge some of those coordination options (like simultaneous launches) but conditional instructions as a whole don't exist

[sharp crow]

<@&942093958551588904> how about some pubbing it up today?

[tulip vault]

I've got time for a pub

[misty storm]

Possibly later?

[wary flame]

sure

[olive blade]

I must work

[sharp crow]

work work

[topaz jolt]

Aaah

[tulip vault]

@wet root the hammerheads are really good

me and thijs were trying them and damn

[topaz jolt]

I missed the spaceship noises. It's okayy.

[sharp crow]

they really gotta revert that gun elevation change

bowtanking liners is a bit too much

[glad aurora]

I went 7-1 with them before I stopped using them, and even then it was damn close to 8-0

They're very good

[tulip vault]

I dunno if I'd agree with that, but there probably does need to be some kind of change

tbh even if it was just changing the elevation on just plasma or something

[azure delta]

that's unfortunate.

[bitter furnace]

Well, yes and no. It's complicated. Yes, jamming noise falls off over distance exponentially, inverse squared (1 / x^2). But raw jamming noise on target isn't what is actually relevant, what matters is the contest between jamming noise and radar power. Radar power ALSO falls off over distance exponentially, all signals do. But unlike jamming, radar waves in order to work must travel to the target then bounce off and return. It essentially has to cover twice the distance, which means the return power falls off at inverse tesseracted (1 / x^4). So if you have a jammer fighting a radar and they're both the same distance from each other at all times, the radar will lose much more power than the jammer does as the ships get farther away

[azure delta]

this makes sense, so it's still relevant if the jammer is screening for something closer than itself.

[bitter furnace]

Correctimundo

trying to cover a ship closer in using a jammer farther out is unlikely to work, but doing the inverse with a closer jamming ship and a farther away ship you don't want to be detected is super effective

[wary flame]

nobody has tried to HEKP the bowtanking liners yet, possibly because they haven't become known enough

can I get that fleet file? I need a new OSP frontline

[tulip vault]

this is lark's version

this is the one I was using

[lime jungle]

Fleet '3.0k - Hammerheads Mixed' is composed of 3 ships that cost 3000 points:

  Taker : 'Marauder' class Line Ship [Gun Plasma PD Sensor]
  Giver : 'Marauder' class Line Ship [Gun Plasma PD Sensor]
Skylark : 'Flathead' class Monitor [Rail PD]
```This fleet uses 3 different missile types:
```yaml
SDM-212 Saeth Manwl : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR)/PSV(THERM) - HE FRAG [5pts]
      SGM-101 Gwawr : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR) - HE FRAG [2pts]
     SGM-131 Bwyell : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR) - HE FRAG [2pts]

[wet root]

I definitely plan to make a version with a couple fancier ones and a few cap assets

[wet root]

Eeeexcellent

[tulip vault]

yeah I'm not megasold on the idea mine are a better version

[glad aurora]

they HEKP'd me, it's what put an end to my run 😔

[lime jungle]

Fleet 'Obscene Creatures' is composed of 3 ships that cost 3000 points:

          Whack : 'Marauder' class Line Ship [Gun Plasma PD EWar]
The Holey Boner : 'Marauder' class Line Ship [Gun Plasma PD]
    Mimic Miter : 'Draugr' class Clipper [EWar Gun Sensor]
```This fleet uses 3 different missile types:
```yaml
      SGM-101 Hobgoblin : DIRECT - PSV(WAKE) - HE SHAPED [1pts]
        SGM-113 Buckler : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR) - HE FRAG [2pts]
SGM-2 Fish Poking Stick : DIRECT - PSV(WAKE)/CMD - HE FRAG [7pts]

[tulip vault]

the double mags are so one can be the beefy nose component because I don't like having the DCC explode first but

[wet root]

Railguns also seem pretty phenomenal vs them

[tulip vault]

honestly I need to see if you can fit one into 1k

3 of these probably isn't a good fleet but it is one I want the option of

[wet root]

A hit down the side will get what, 4 guns and 6 compartments?

[glad aurora]

you can but it won't be very good, yeah

[wet root]

My latest version of the fleet with the JMan brings them to 1055 points apiece (swapping a plasma for a T30), but those last 55 points would really start biting into crucial components

[tulip vault]

yeah as I said, not very good but

maybe there's like, 2 cheap monitors or something you can shove into the excess

every pub I've been in severely lacks frontline atm so

[wet root]

The fleet I really feel like has legs is "Cap fleet + fancy cruiser"

[mint sinew]

I similarly got HEKP'd the first time I took them out. A random Vaux fleet had a backpack of instastages that just flattened one of my liners instantly

[wet root]

Since the 1250-ish point version fills in a niche OSP traditionally lacks of a cruiser that can effectively engage both capital and subline threats

[tulip vault]

yeah I could see that

they're really self sufficient between how nuts 100mm flak is and being able to shove SDM2s in

[glad aurora]

this is why I put omnisoftkill on mine

[wet root]

(Ocellos are pretty vulnerable, expensive, and can't deal with small ships, while individual Obelisks get eaten pretty quickly by capitals)

[tulip vault]

I do think these have a lot of counters tbh, but they're quite good nonetheless

[wet root]

Yeah, sticking several one-armed bandits on seems excellent for letting them go off and do their own thing

[tulip vault]

I dunno how these deal with being jammed (if anyone says offset radars I will send you to jail)

[wet root]

That's part of why I have the JMan version, so I can have a couple EO Pikes

[tulip vault]

yeah I mean offset radars are just the answer

[wet root]

And am wondering if it's worth having a hangar on nicer ones for that as well

[tulip vault]

just makes them a bit less self sufficient

I dunno if you want to give up a turret for it

[wet root]

Yeah, that's the question

I haven't been jammed enough to check this yet, can you order an EO ball lock on a jamming strobe?

Or do you have to get a burnthrough ping first?

[mint sinew]

It'd need to be the strobe from the pike to get the angle right, which means your pike would be dangerously close (and looking the right way)

LoBs don't share very well

[wet root]

Won't the Pike get a strobe as long as it's in the cone + within 10k?

Or do they have directional radars?

[mint sinew]

Maybe, but the pike has a directional radar

[wet root]

Ah, gotcha

So definitely want a Huntress to burnthrough with

[wet root]

I really hope if they nerf them it's in literally any other way, because this is the first time I've actually enjoyed playing liners in Neb

Outside of Gale liners, for the exact same reason

[deft current]

Is 100mm grape still good at shooting down hybrids or is 100mm flak the best option now?

[wet root]

AFAIK grape is still where it's always been, i.e. it will sometimes take a couple missiles down but if you rely on it you will explode

[tulip vault]

flak won't save you at close range but it's really good at smacking things further away

[supple sonnet]

IMO 100mm isn't PD, it's AA. It won't much help you against a horde of angry S2H who want to make your day that much worse. But it will give that flight of bombers a reason to reconsider their life choices.

[tulip vault]

it's quite good at smacking down missiles that are soaring through the open, but it is not responsive enough to cover you close up

[supple sonnet]

At the end of the day, give your 100mm guns some 20mm friends.

[tulip vault]

can anyone help me budget my moorline, I'm running out of points

[wet root]

That would be a terrifying Moorline to encounter as a Levy

[wet root]

Do ships on aux steering count as armed for contesting points?

[quiet quiver]

No

[wet root]

Rip my plans for aux steering shuttles

[quiet quiver]

Basic CIC is same price

[wet root]

Yeah, but less hp and not reinforced

[quiet quiver]

25 pts for RCIC isn't bad for a cheap capper, not like 45 for RDC

[wet root]

Mhm, but it's a lot percentagewise when compared to an 80-point aux/drive/rapidc shuttle

[quiet quiver]

Don't forget 6 pts for the arming missile if you wanna count as armed

80 pts auxsteer shuttle, 86 pt minimally armed, 101 pts rcic and armed

[wet root]

I'll probably go for the 90 point minimally armed + 4 chaff, plan to manually drop chaff on the point

(And inevitably forget to do so, ofc)

[supple sonnet]

Is this the infamous "cringe capper"?

[wet root]

The true cringe capper is 70 points

But it has a nasty habit of dieing because I overflanked and one thruster caught on fire

[quiet quiver]

You can also die from just bad RNG with flank and fire

[wet root]

This is why Sensor Buoys are the superior craft

[junior heron]

some day I gotta see if I can get the Neb to work over Steam Link to my phone

it'll be a terrible idea

but lots of mine are

[wet root]

TBH of all games to do that on

Neb seems relatively doable

The small screen wouldn't be great, but at least if it takes you 5s to do an order that's fine in Neb

[lime jungle]

'Sensor Buoy (Ventral)' is a 'Ferryman' class Clipper that costs 135 points.

[astral pumice]

is there like a

a list of builds or something I can check to see what I can build off from?

[junior heron]

the starter fleets are pretty good

[astral pumice]

hmm okay

[oak shell]

I'm free for a bit, if you want to stomp some bots together

[astral pumice]

oh no just asking for now, I'm still working on stuff

[wicked mirage]

https://tenor.com/view/thanos-perfectlybalanced-gif-18301221

[sharp crow]

they're a lot of fun for sure but I can't imagine that bowtanking liners is ever going to be okay