Nebulous: Fleet Command

[tulip vault]

It complains about the range but it fires the illuminator anyways

[wet root]

There's also the important case of "the EWR can see the capital even if nothing else can"

[wary flame]

I build for it, but Tom has done it to me a couple of times, it's just that I'm the only one who uses it as a primary battleship defence method

[wet root]

And also "I can illuminate the capital enough to make it visible"

[tulip vault]

Yeah

I dunno even then knowing you do it I certainly have hit you with gales

Not super often but like, it’s not infallible

[supple sonnet]

I know we have fucked it up and had our escorts eat a salvo of sqales, but losing an escort is usialy better then losing a cap ship

[olive blade]

its not really infallable but I think clean good gale dumps from a good angle at a good range like 6k ish against not totally blobbed ships kinda need to punch fairly reliably to be worthwhile

the odds need to be pretty good because conditional all in coinflips are inherently iffy

[tulip vault]

I feel like they do

[olive blade]

I think they did okay but if everyone is bringing 3+ jammers per capital group to beat out containers

I'm really not sure about it

[tulip vault]

I really don’t think these changes are going to make people bring that much jamming, even if it would make their fleets better

And especially not if the containers continue to be as easily beat by the activer decoy

[olive blade]

thats fair

if the missile just beats them

[wet root]

I also think 6k is around the range it gets really hard to jam out Gales

[olive blade]

lighthouses do suck a bit

[wet root]

They do

[tulip vault]

I like them tbh

But I haven’t experienced your HoJ woes so idk

[wet root]

They are just worse than Spotlights but I kind of like them as well

[olive blade]

my missiles definitely work on a lot of people

[tulip vault]

Like, the cone on them is small enough that CLs reliably leave behind their chaff without needing to micro so

I can’t dislike them that much

[wet root]

It's actually the exact same angle as a Spotlight as I learned today

[olive blade]

yeah

[wet root]

Just the shorter range makes them feel thinner

[tulip vault]

Huh

The more you know

[wet root]

I just like their cost and power efficiency

[tulip vault]

Maybe I like the spotlight too

[olive blade]

they are definitely good on those numbers

[tulip vault]

I just am consistently annoyed with ocellos bringing floodlights and completely negating any micro I do lol

[wet root]

I do that! Except I turn them off when people are Galing because I'm not a monster

[olive blade]

I guess the problem with being fully jammed out is that if it happens you are just so boned because of how all in missiles are

well gales are

[wet root]

I was going to say OSP missiles in general but Torps are actually pretty solid as a sidearm

[olive blade]

yeah its definitely more of a OSP issue

[tulip vault]

Yeah, getting jammed out does suck

HoJ isn’t a cure but it does help a bit

though I do think that sometimes trying to missile a target probably just isn’t useful

And that’s not news or anything but it’s certainly more relevant with the OSP imo

[wet root]

Yeah, it just has a lot of potential to become problematic when the way to survive getting missiled and the way to survive getting shot are the same, particularly when two of the OSP missiles (S2s and containers) need heavy investment to be viable

If your missile backpack has no good targets its a lot less of a detriment than if your Isekai Truck has none

I do think Gales will probably remain fine though, even if people get better about bringing jamming

And let's be honest people never bring as much jamming as they should

[rigid bison]

Honestly I’ll wait for post boat night to like sound the death of OSP S2s or Feeders

[supple sonnet]

I don't think anyone is saying feeders are dead?

[wary flame]

feeders are pretty great

containers are dead until softkill takes a hit

[wet root]

S2s are absolutely not dead either, they are potentially slightly harder to play

It's only Containers that are really 6 feet under

(Some torps also take a hit, but that's not exactly terrible)

[quiet quiver]

I'm kinda shocked that torpedoes got their health doubled AND take half damage from certain PD but containers only got the latter (and technically have a worse stat for it than torps but it currently matters in 0 cases)

[supple sonnet]

yeah, Torp go spinny and defenders just stop working so like it's even weirder as they did not need the buff IMO

[rigid bison]

Might bring a pure torp liner to next game: liners are already buffed and torps are apparently good

[wet root]

Torp liners are fun, and the liner movement buffs alongside the long haul drive buff will be nice for them

Very feast or famine though

[supple sonnet]

The Isakai truck is a good design to run, if you can get off good ambushes. Personaly my experince has been murder a fleet and die to "being the bigest target deseise"

[wet root]

I've had good success with Gale torp liners with a bajillion jammers

Isekai Truck losing EO presumably hurts a bit, though does the modern version even bring a salvo?

[supple sonnet]

Our version have been running CMD, or the most modern CMD/WAKE

[wet root]

I suppose wake seekers being slightly better now is nice for that one

And DCX are probably a welcome addition

[supple sonnet]

and .25 of a point per missle is nice to get them to stop doing the Disco circle

[wet root]

Do they not have decoys? I thought torps only have two slots

Not that torps really need the decoys

[supple sonnet]

They don't but the base Crysknife was 12 points alone

[wet root]

I should callsign the torp Monitor in my capping fleet Isekai Box

[lime jungle]

SGT-358 Gom Jabber is a size 3 missile that costs 12 points.

[wet root]

Yeah that explains why I have twice as many liners in my torp fleet lol

[supple sonnet]

But yeah thy are the price point whare decoys would need to work a lot better then they do to be worth the damage drop off.

[wet root]

I could see bringing a salvo of decoy torps to break deathball PD if torps died to PD

But yeah

I spent far too long looking at this missile trying to find out why it costs 3 more points than my usual ACT[WAKE]

Which has similar or maybe even more maneuver

(It's because I use Weave, I'm just blind)

[supple sonnet]

Yeah thease use corkscrew

[bitter furnace]

well when the health increase happened, torps were a lot worse than containers

also it wasn't double, it was 110 to 160

[olive blade]

yeah torps pre buff were dismal

[bitter furnace]

and if you increase containers' health any further up from the current 150, then you just make Defenders the only option to kill them

they're already at the upper limit for safe health values more or less

[rigid bison]

Containers are in a weird position where they act as a softkill skill check or a “can you mass Sarissas” check

[wary flame]

They absolutely die to base hardkill, that is in fact still an issue even when I'm shoving literally 20 decoy modules into each strike.
The easy way to make them slightly tougher against defenders without affecting anything else would be to tweak Defender armour pen or increase their armour such that it deals half damage to them and generally shuffle things around (increase Sarissa pen, etc) so that nothing else is affected, which would be straightforward enough.

[quiet quiver]

No I mean on testing, unless I'm misreading something, where it says they're going up to 350

Shit I swear I read it and now I can't find it

Did I hallucinate this???

[bitter furnace]

I think so, torps are still at 160

[quiet quiver]

Yeah and I started looking for something else that got changed to 350 and can't find it either

[noble zodiac]

that would be the C53/C54

(the C53 used to be 350HP and is dropping to 300, iirc)

[junior heron]

<@&942093958551588904> would anyone be up for some games, either now or later this evening?

[night fable]

I'm streaming viewer games in an hour

[junior heron]

oh!
are y'all playing on test branch, or main branch?

haven't been awake or around much to catch your streams in a while, but am currently both today

[wicked mirage]

yay Vivi game!

[wet root]

Ooh, Vivi stream, I'm usually available too late to catch those

Unfortunately probably can't do a Neb tonight, but good luck!

[night fable]

,aom!

main!

And we're live! I'm streaming yet more NEBULOUS: Fleet Command viewer games on my Twitch channel - come bring your fleets and join the battle!
https://www.twitch.tv/docvivileandra <@&942093958551588904>

[olive walrus]

I appear to have posted art in this chat by mistake a while ago

oops

[wicked mirage]

All good ^^

It was cool!

[junior heron]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/943416769660452904/1179689623560146974/image.png?ex=657ab293&is=65683d93&hm=ef62cc75e82e57569462cce6dfe4535d158bc55041f3996922d1e337be37cf6f&

Removed 5hp explosion damage from Blast Frag destruction effect and increased Blast Frag warheads component damage to 70 per increment (was 60). AMM damage done will now be consistent with displayed values.
Ship main engines will now remain detectable by WAKE seekers for 15 seconds after emission stops.
Missile body cost discounts now apply to terminal maneuver costs. Increased container missile body top-end maneuverability by 50%. Missile decoys will now only launch when the missile's velocity vector is within 7.5 degrees of the PIP Increased JRR's base debuff probability when at 100% HP to be 10% (was 0%). ```

[quiet quiver]

@wary flame Decoy separation buff finally here

(And possibly also usable container terminals)

[wary flame]

Unlikely, they still have bad agi and massive hitboxes, but if they're even slightly functional it'll be huge

[quiet quiver]

The top-end maneuverability went up too, it's not just the cost discount

[wary flame]

That's mostly just going to make up for them being much faster now, I cannot state just how much they couldn't use terminals before

A max agi container wouldn't wiggle enough to move its entire hitbox off the centerline of the flight at any point

Number one problem right now is that it's literally impossible to make jam resistant cruise containers besides pure wake primary, all act seekers go dumb when jammed and ARAD goes nuts dumping decoys the moment it sees a jammer so one SSJ ruins a whole salvo.

[junior heron]

I think ACT does still see a battleship before its PD can fire under a blanket

which is not all use cases, but is the one I mostly care about testing

[sharp crow]

I'm shocked vauxhalls apparently needed a nerf

[wary flame]

Pretty sure that's just missiles leaking out of the jammer cone

Besides, you need some time to deploy decoys

normally any validated act missile just goes wild and wiggles everywhere the moment you jam it

[bitter furnace]

they've needed one for a long while arguably, but there were other even more overpowered options on Alliance side, and the OSP had a bunch of overtuned options they could use to counter

both of those are no longer true, and so LCs were stomping through matches

[sharp crow]

I must be living in a different meta

[bitter furnace]

one of the problems is that LCs have a huge skill gap, one of the highest in the game

experienced players can use them to get away with murder, newer players are much better off in an Axford

this nerf specifically targets the evasion ability of the LC, which is the primary tool used by veterans and neglected by newbies, so theoretically it brings the two extremes of play closer together

Vauxhall Queen @noble zodiac herself suggested this nerf, so I'm optimistic lol

[mint sinew]

This is also most notable in the test branch where the big checks on Vauxhalls took a hit. E.g. 250mm liners

[bitter furnace]

yeah, 250 LNs and Tugboats got whacked

[wet root]

Tug swarms losing firepower and torp tugs losing speed definitely bumps Vauxes a few steps up the food chain

And yeah Vauxes have been maybe a bit overtuned for a while, Raines just overshadowed them in a lot of the same areas

Big fan of these changes, especially if that wake change applies to validators

[olive blade]

thats good container buffs damn

[bitter furnace]

Indeed they do

[noble zodiac]

wait whar

i mean my main focus of suggestions was on 250s overperforming and OSP not having an anchor against them lmao xP
but also yeaaaaaa agility is extremely forgiving if you know how to dodgeulous

[wary flame]

So cruise missiles all have one softkill solution, which is either SSJAMM or one Blanket

no more cruise for us

but hey, hangups are pretty sweet now

[bitter furnace]

oh I thought you did, my bad

I think you at least were in support, I remember that much

[supple sonnet]

yeah CL's kinda just die if you glare at them with a Moniter.

Like in the last few boat nights CL's have not been doing well, and have been dieing only slightly faster then the corves my Corve squadrens. this might just be from p-net players being Agro in the "yub into spawn" way that is common here

[wet root]

For containers, couldn't you run EACT[CMD]/CMD off an EWR track? Limits you to TRPs, which sucks, but means you get decoy separation before getting into PD range

Still vulnerable to interruptor + blanket ofc, but better than just blanket

[junior heron]

can't really cruise off ewr tracks i thought

[wary flame]

gets eaten alive by sarissas, but yes, CMD is the only seeker you can do anything with

[wet root]

You can't for cmd validators since they try to lead and go to the moon, but that's not an issue for cmd secondaries

[wet root]

Mm, yeah, didn't think about Sarissas

[wary flame]

sarissas will eat them, interruptor or the now useful hangup will remove them from play

[wet root]

I'm not sure how EACT[WAKE]/WAKE does with decoys, do they separate when it first sees a wake?

[wary flame]

the 2 blanket 2 hangup jamcube raines is now good for hiding and deletes any missile

[wet root]

Or do they only separate when they see main engines? If it's the latter that might be the best choice now

[wary flame]

they get jammed and go dumb, then drop all their decoys into flares when the wake cone sees it

and you can still All Stop normal Wake

[wet root]

They re-added the cooloff period, though only to 15s

Which might be too short for cruise containers

Especially since presumably light ships can adjust heading and pop chaff as an alternative

[wary flame]

that's a) probably too short, only lets your container move about 3km between pressing all stop and losing tracking and b) is only for wake val last I checked

[wet root]

At least in main it doesn't really matter that it's for validators only, since once you stop you're not moving, so the lingering trail leads most of the way to you

But yeah, 15s at container speeds (even post speed buff) is very short

One scryglass frig and you're kind of boned

[wary flame]

the general problem is that every single cruise missile requires user error on the part of the opponent now

and OSP invests so much to get a decent missile salvo out that that just means they're non-viable

you just can't bring a 3k ship on the principle of "maybe they'll forget the SSJ AMMs and all blankets, then not press Z"

[supple sonnet]

Or making full stop radar off the worse option wich is not easy for cruse

[junior heron]

Ship main engines will now remain detectable by WAKE seekers for 15 seconds after emission stops.
seems to be for all seekers

[supple sonnet]

Hemm... a shepard shuttle for shooting down AMM's might be a role OSP needs to consiter how to work

[wet root]

I question the viability of that, since it means you need to get the shuttle within a few km of the target

[junior heron]

y'know, I guess an AMM with HoJ seeker set to only fire on size 2s works

[wet root]

There is the kind of hilarious idea of a few ARAD S2 AMMs leading the pack of cruise missiles

[supple sonnet]

getting a shuttle within a few KM of the target is not that hard, you need to do it with rocket shuttles normaly

[wet root]

It's not, but it's removing the whole point of a cruise missile fleet

I.e. being able to hit stuff far away at short notice

[wary flame]

rocket/graser/graser shuttle might do it, but is a tremendous faff and OSP really doesn't have the budget for it considering how expensive their missile setups are

[wet root]

Hmm, ARAD/EACT/CMD is maybe a reasonable seeker setup that's a massive pain to softkill

[wary flame]

has arad in it, jamming it makes it dump every decoy it has into black space then turn around to chase the jam signal

[wet root]

Though I suppose the issue there is it pops decoys on the Activer Decoy still

Yyeah

[wary flame]

or just A Blanket

which are not bad to have around

[wet root]

Could go CMD primary but then you must have a Bloodhound

And that's a significant cost

And vulnerability

Yeah, not going to be a good time for OSP cruise fleets

[wary flame]

"Congratulations, you can have three seekers as long as all of them are worthless refuse"

[sharp crow]

triple wake containers go

[wary flame]

CM-4 6AM Wakey Wakey

I continue to not be entirely happy with "we fix all the load-bearing bugs, break half the game and then spend three updates duct taping it back together" as a design style even if I like most of the stuff in the test branch right now

[olive blade]

yeah

[sharp crow]

yeah I'm not sure how to wriggle out of this one

[tulip vault]

I honestly really love all the giant nonsense components liners have gotten, I like monitors as well

but these missile changes are just, strange

[wary flame]

there was a neat proposal to make SEARCH ARAD an upgrade for an extra point or two, that wouldn't go for jam signals

[tulip vault]

oh that'd be cool

[olive blade]

I like a lot of bits of it

[tulip vault]

I'd be onboard with that, I think

[wary flame]

then you at least have to turn the radars off and then softkill the rest

[sharp crow]

even if you give EO back to OSP, you're still stuck with one AMM invalidates everything else

[wary flame]

which isn't that hard with the superAMMs

"radar off, activate jammer" is not a significantly harder softkill drill but it's something

[olive blade]

missiles just kinda keep bricking

[tulip vault]

I was about to say "oh what if we made turning the radar on and off take time" but I think that would have so many rippling effects that it would be just such a bad idea

[olive blade]

spend a repair every time you turn radar back on fixes an awful lot of things in a weird way

its probably terrible but

[sharp crow]

maybe an ECCM module or something

[wet root]

Do Defenders have EO backup? If not, that also prevents PD from shooting down stuff currently lost in the sauce, which would be nice

[wary flame]

softkill either needs to be significantly less capable or significantly more expensive, since as long as you can trivially shred salvos of any expense with less than a hundred points of chaff, actdecoy, flares and jamming equipment, nobody can risk bringing any of those missiles

[wet root]

If you use softkill go all in on it

[sharp crow]

module that ignores jamming for x seconds

[wet root]

Mmm, not a fan of that

[sharp crow]

long enough to ignore a passing AMM, short enough to let offset jamming work

[junior heron]

no, they don't - only flak-types

[wet root]

Same issue as with EO, I don't think "thing that simply removes a bunch of mechanics" is a good choice

[olive blade]

tbh I am also worried about the hangup+blanket blob

even outside the fancy amm

[sharp crow]

it doesn't remove a mechanic if it's time limited on a slow ass missile

[wet root]

Could do what I've suggested before and have a boosted self-screening illuminator module to increase radar sig

[sharp crow]

just a penaid that makes things not dump all the decoys into space

[wet root]

True, but idk, just feels... inelegant

[olive blade]

I mean tbh if we want to get realistic

[tulip vault]

honestly, make chaff cost like, 5 points, make active decoys 10 or 15 or something

[olive blade]

there are those networked missile groups

[tulip vault]

see what happens

[olive blade]

where they share target info and such

[wary flame]

the irritating thing there is that time-to-target is pretty invariable and the moment they're jammed they fail, so either it lasts long enough to reliably work or it just doesn't

ANS cruise isn't doing so hot either, they have EO Val and face less jamming, but S2 AMM from a VLS still ruins ARAD/Act

[olive blade]

but I guess even then you need like, a missile that you can trust guiding them

tbh

the sheer turn rate of stairs and similar things makes them better against jamming

assuming the wake cone still works

[wary flame]

people actually bring flares now, but it's still good

flares are usually in the same place as chaff so you generally get past it

[olive blade]

flares help but I find I still get some through

and at least they are paying

[wet root]

It's also so much less costly to lose half a salvo of stairs to chaff

And they often are fast enough to just hit before chaff deploys

[olive blade]

esp with osp radar often having more blindspots

[sharp crow]

maybe the answer really is just letting cmd go on cruise

[wet root]

I'm pretty sure that's a technical issue not a balance choice

But yeah

[olive blade]

I think even then if hangups work well that will have limited value

hmm

[wet root]

(There's no way to select a track in path firing mode, TRPs are a clunky workaround)

[sharp crow]

hangups and interruptors doing things seems preferable to just accepting missile death at the hands of the activist decoy

like at a certain investment level softkill should also just be allowed to work. that's why an interrupter exists in the first place

[olive blade]

yeah

but I guess at least the activist requires spending on dedicated pd

the worst problem of the 120 frigs

was that they didn't need to spend on anything other than guns

[wary flame]

well, it's 8pts in a VLS-2 you can also put real missiles in

it's hardly breaking the bank

[olive blade]

I think the failure case of "blob of hangups and blankets and a little box of chaff wins" is worse

because its something you want anyway you just get beating missiles free

[sharp crow]

you can hoj at those at least

[olive blade]

they can do pulloff with part of the jamming group

if they are clever and fast

tbh

[sharp crow]

you should be rewarded for being clever and fast

[olive blade]

I think a change I would like

[wet root]

Also the early decoy separation neuters containers

[sharp crow]

unlike pressing z to shoot one missile

[olive blade]

I mean yes but a strategy needs to work on good players

I'm not bringing missiles I can't shoot at tom or misc

[wet root]

It needs an opportunity cost

[olive blade]

I think tbh

hoj should have stickyness

[wet root]

Spilled the OJ on the HoJ

[junior heron]

FWIW most missiles have been working on me :P

[olive blade]

you have done the jamming pulloff

[wet root]

Also I think most missiles shot at you have been direct

Which are fine IMO

It's cruise that's an issue

[wary flame]

the pull-off is hard enough that I'm fine with it working on S2s, the irritating thing is that it pops decoys/staging early so you don't need to do the tricky part against anything but S2 spam

[olive blade]

I'd like to see some sort of behavior like

cmd can be trackfired, and if it is with a validator, the first thing the validator picks up gets set as the cmd target

[junior heron]

give Search ARAD/HoJ invalidator

[olive blade]

I would like to see a viable s2 cruise fleet on osp

[wet root]

You should be able to pull search ARAD with EWRs and Bloodhounds

[olive blade]

or at least longer ranged general missile use

[wet root]

Making Wake reliable enough that WAKE[ARAD] or WAKE[ACT] are worth using could help as well

[olive blade]

that would be nice

the awkward thing about it is it wants to pretend to be heat seekers ala planes

but planes uh, mostly want their engines on

and the engines stay pretty hot even if turned off for a little

its just always felt weird in neb

I do kinda like its niche role as a yub seeker

but it needs something else filling the more general role then

[wet root]

I do really like how it is right now

But yeah, it leaves a gap

[olive blade]

because atm radar/arad put control in your opponents hands basically

[junior heron]

i want to try pure WAKE as a corvette jousting weapon, because you can make 1 point missiles that way

[wet root]

Cheap+crappy+gives ways around jamming is a fun niche

[olive blade]

yeah I like it

I liked the good arad validator

[wet root]

The sticky version?

[sharp crow]

give OSP optical seekers, i.e. a guy with an xbox controller and binoculars sitting in the container

[tulip vault]

honestly I earnestly wonder about a seeker which occupies your programming channels the whole time it's in flight but is very hard to jam

would probably work better if crew mechanics were implemented and could interact with it though

[sharp crow]

fly by wire container would be funny

[wet root]

I think that's an awkward way to balance things, at least for the OSP, because it basically doesn't matter how long I'm stopped from firing for afterwards if my first salvo kills a BB

[tulip vault]

you're not wrong

[wet root]

They're already so limited by strike count as well

[wary flame]

it does stop you using time on target attacks, which are the mainstay for containers

so it's a real limit there

[wet root]

True

[tulip vault]

yeah, I suppose

it also spreads out how close together you can put strikes

which probably doesn't matter much but is an element

[wet root]

It does hamper the ability to finish off a ship you winged

But I'm not sure if that's a good thing

[sharp crow]

eo but with thematic downside for osp doesn't seem like a bad idea at all

[olive blade]

yeah

[wet root]

I'm still think it would be worth giving OSP EO back but giving ANS a crappy dazzler

[olive blade]

I do think some sort of budget osp EO would be cool

I like the fly by wire

[sharp crow]

and it's not like eo decoy strikes were exactly uncounterable by the average solomon

[wet root]

Fly by wire would be interesting if it had a range limit

[sharp crow]

if anything cutting out ToT attacks will make a solomon with pd harder to crack

[wet root]

Or if it could only curve some amount

Something to make it not just unjammable cmd

[tulip vault]

I mean I was thinking more TV guided than fly-by-wire

but I suppose that would have to be jammable

[glad aurora]

fly-by-wire (30km spool)

[tulip vault]

laser comms time?? /j

[glad aurora]

yeah, give the ANS a laser S3H

[wet root]

Give OSP really big mirrors they can use to bounce illuminators around rocks

[sharp crow]

ewr tugs replaced with mirror tugs

bouncing illuminators as well as getting a nice tan

[wet root]

Though more realistically, cut the cost on CNLs enough that you can actually bring a couple lighthouse shuttles and use cruise SAH

[sharp crow]

that's nebulous heresy

the cln must be 3K or the sky will fall

[wet root]

Yes, yes, SAH containers will make OSP win every single game ever played

[mint sinew]

I really want to try a stacked game with cruise SAH containers at some point. If your team all bring a few illuminators and basically call shots for you I can see that being really interesting

[olive blade]

I can see something like that working

[rigid bison]

I have an idea. TV guidance: OSP EO that requires a comms link to the ship like CMD. TV guided containers could once again get away with one or two seekers, leaving a slot for Decoys. This essentially brings back eo container yub, but with a twist and with ANS having some counterplay options.
Unlike Blankets, which are just good to have around in general, comms jamming tools are very…niche.

[olive blade]

I think they will be less so in fiture

now that hangups apparently got fixed this time for real honest they work

[supple sonnet]

Yeah, they are not just for murdering ConL's

[tulip vault]

I do wish hangups were less... hard to test?

I almost wish that they made it so when you had the ship selected you only saw friendly ships you could pick up on radar

[quiet quiver]

My brain’s drifting towards “rework CMD cruise behavior” but that’s a more involved fix

[tulip vault]

I think CMD cruise being functional would be better served by like, a new seeker

and I do think there wouldn't be a way of making it target a specific ship

[junior heron]

i'd take being able to use multiple TRPs

[tulip vault]

...maybe using the hook track dialogue some how?

multiple TRPs would be nice

[quiet quiver]

Would perhaps be interesting if CMD was actually commandable

[tulip vault]

as would being able to drop TRPs from within the missile targeting interface

[wet root]

Oh god cmd missile cam

Like the Phoenix from Planetside 2

[junior heron]

first-person guided CMD missile

yes

[glad aurora]

thought: very hard to jam cruise seeker that you have to tell beforehand what class of hull it's aiming for

[junior heron]

CMD missile cam is the buff HEKP needs

[wet root]

Give it a module to have friendly missiles follow it like ducklings

[quiet quiver]

I was thinking the ability to re-order in-flight missiles instead of selecting a target at the start and the missile being ride-or-die on it

[tulip vault]

that'd be cool but... honestly I can't think of a situation that'd be useful

like, sometimes you overkill something?

[wet root]

You could plot a course then give it a target order when it gets near the end

[tulip vault]

I guess? but I feel like you don't often have a lot of range to spare when firing missiles

that's true

[quiet quiver]

Yeah it opens up CMD yub, or being able to start wiggling mid-flight when the first one gets sarissa’d

[supple sonnet]

It reay depends, like we do a decent amount of like 6-7km popup strikes wiht the Duncan's Hullbreachussy missels and those have a 12km range.

[mint sinew]

Pepsi's suggestion of making it tie into Intel isn't a bad option either. In absence of being track fired CMD targets the WARSHIP track nearest the flight path.

(Could get fancy and reuse the priority logic from AMMs to preprogram it with selection behaviour)

[tulip vault]

maybe I've just optimised (derogatory) my missiles into oblivion

[wet root]

It also depends a lot on the missile, my gales have a lot of range because they have no warhead so I have trongle to spare

[arctic magnet]

not gonna be around for boat night, extremely sick

[supple sonnet]

Sorry to hear that, we do hope your feeling better soon

[junior heron]

D:

rest up!

[tulip vault]

There will also be no boats for me, Im visiting my dog again this weekend (and my family I guess :p)

[wet root]

I'll be on in a moment, once I have acquisitioned my bagel

[rigid bison]

i'll be on

[junior heron]

<@&942093958551588904> boat time!

@unreal hound could you open the boat night rooms?

[misty storm]

May not be able to participate, computer is currently disassembled

[unreal hound]

you may now boat

[junior heron]

thank you!

[mint sinew]

Are we running test patch today?

[rigid bison]

test

[sharp crow]

passing on boat night this week, have fun everyone

[oak shell]

Misc: containers are dead

Also Misc:

[rigid bison]

but consider: nobody brought a blanket.

[wary flame]

decoy fixes officially worked

[junior heron]

if you're cold, they're cold. put a blanket on 'em

[wary flame]

support containers at the back of the salvo on EACT, so the worst case divergence issue, and they all stayed in the right place

[bitter furnace]

yeah, containers are doing well in the testing games so far, but I'm worried about the meta shifts a month or so down the line

[wary flame]

they feel very good when they can acquire the right target

that is the sole remaining issue so we'll see how that works out

[wet root]

I'm ahead of the game, I already skip PD on half my ships in favor of more jamming

Now I can drop the PD on the other half

[junior heron]

I don't think that's the lesson to take

[mint sinew]

Yeah I cycled out my jamming escort for SSJ AMMs but I don't think the difference mattered (for me). The lethal strike I took was once I was unescorted anyway

[wet root]

Oohhhhh, I should be dropping DC for more jamming instead, gotcha

[junior heron]

;_;

why must you bully me so

[wary flame]

I assume the SSJAMMs were what got that one strike

[mint sinew]

Yeah, pulled the containers off angle at the last moments

[junior heron]

@unreal hound looks like boat night (and fight night) are wrapped up

[unreal hound]

Hid them thanks tom

[junior heron]

👍

[wary flame]

after a few games of testing the bowling ball AMMs I think these are going to spread pretty damn fast

Arad removal device

[mint sinew]

Bowling ball = SSJ AMM?

I think they should, but probably won't be universal. Mounting a VLS-2 is more restrictive than a VLS-1 and/or a pile of defenders and stonewalls.

Needing to be manually triggered is also a tax on micro some people dislike. Especially in this context where failing to execute the defence clearly got you blown up which feels worse than just not having brought the tool.

[wary flame]

it costs you one Stonewall mount and in exchange you render anything ARAD completely nonfunctional and the rest considerably less reliable, I think its mere existence will basically lock out the CLN from serious non-rocket strikes

[mint sinew]

Oh, I think it's a good deal and will be running them myself. I already run the equivalent containers on many of my bulkers.
I just don't anticipate them being universal. Though I guess the dazzler problem applies where you can just have targets denied cheaply so it isn't worth the risk much of the time

[wary flame]

precisely, your container liner is a 3000pt investment and each decoy strike is probably at least 300pts of that, so you really can't invest that much when an 8pt amm or a single blanket that most people have anyway just turns it off

need to spam rocket boxes because those are comparatively softkill resistant

[wary flame]

Made myself some Wake/[Act]/Act basic spam containers and want to see if those work

[noble zodiac]

why does the wake need ACT validation again

flares?

... yeah, flares, ok, ignore that

and the ACT backup for when the target hits allstop/is bowon

[wary flame]

Act Val is secretly the best validator because the target can't stop having a radar signature

[noble zodiac]

real

[tulip vault]

That’s

I mean

[noble zodiac]

and if you give it a primary that ignores chaff

[tulip vault]

I can’t argue with that realt

[noble zodiac]

i hate that that makes sense

[supple sonnet]

And as long as you set unvaladated to acept then you can't jam them out eather

[noble zodiac]

ITD EVEN BE SO CHEAP TOO

CUZ ITS LIKE

the two cheapest non-SAH seekers

wake primary and act val

[wary flame]

the downside is that you have to be a bad enough dude to get a hit with Wake Pri

[tulip vault]

Okay but this does rely on wake working

Wake primary is not very good

Yeah

[wet root]

I hope it actually hits, wake primary makes for fun missile play/counterplay

[wary flame]

also doesn't work great with decoys because they will launch them at the wake, not at the target

but I may try it with the corkscrew containers and try to get some interesting sneaky hits

[noble zodiac]

well no see that's what you have the ACT backup for

[wet root]

Corkscrew containers? Can they actually dodge defenders post maneuver buff?

[noble zodiac]

make it SEACT for extra shenanigans

[tulip vault]

Omw to make a 40 point hekp liner killer s3h

[wary flame]

no, but they do make it a bit difficult because they Go Fast

[wet root]

Well yeah but if the wake isn't able to hit then you're back to chaff killing your strikes

[wary flame]

if it's EACT you can maybe launch decoys vaguely at the target then pick up a wake on the way in

[noble zodiac]

^

that's the idea

[wet root]

Ohh misread you, gotcha

[wet root]

Have you found out a good speed/maneuver amount that doesn't miss sprinters with the new triangle btw?

I could experiment on my own but I'm lazy

[wet root]

You could also mix the salvo with some WAKE/EACT[ARAD], those are vulnerable to flares +emcon+active decoy but you can't do that and the flares+jamming that you need to stop the WAKE[ACT]/EACT

[supple sonnet]

Honestly the best ConL defence agents a sprinter is roofguns, or s1 offencives

Lark (They/Them) ↩️

[Reply to:](#1164000873031151637 message) Have you found out a good speed/maneuver amount that doesn't miss sprinters with the new triangle bt…

Like the Duncans do get atritted by container strikes, espicaly when they are on a point, it's mostaly that once a sprinter starts to dive a ConL that hiting them with a container gets relay chancy from our experince.

[wet root]

Yeah, my concern is more for my anti-scout/capper containers on non-ConL fleets

I want to adjust to use the new speed but not being dodgeable by Sprinters is pretty much the most important thing for those

[mint sinew]

Part of the problem with having containers that miss sprinters is that you don't have a cruise seeker that can discriminate against them. So that turns sprinter escorts into a kind of permanent chaff

[wary flame]

sure, game

[sharp crow]

what happened there

[noble zodiac]

what

[sharp crow]

god's strongest shipping container hitting you in the red glowing spot?

[wary flame]

I was testing some 100mm monitors and it turns out that if grapeshot has nothing to hit or crit it just kind of eats structure

[noble zodiac]

lmfao

[wary flame]

stuck a POS fire marker down and apparently I just missed the components after the armour was chewed through

[bitter furnace]

yeah positional fire will do that

[junior heron]

what's the full name

Metal Gear Solid Pope Boat?

[wary flame]

Metal Gear Solid Pope Boss

after a very silly conversation

[toxic scaffold]

Reminded that we dforgot to post this last boat night

[lime jungle]

Fleet 'Torp-Test-Light-Mk-ii' is composed of 2 ships that cost 3000 points:

Reverend Mother's Toybox : 'Bulk Freighter' class Line Ship [Missile Gun Sensor EWar PD]
            Duncan Idaho : 'Shuttle' class Clipper [Gun Sensor]
```This fleet uses 2 different missile types:
```yaml
SGM-100 Pocket Sand : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR) - HE SHAPED [2pts]
 SGT-358 Gom Jabber : DIRECT - CMD/PSV(WAKE) - HE SHAPED [12pts]

[supple sonnet]

incase anyone wants a testulas ready truck

[wet root]

That reminds me that I should put 250s on the roof of my Gale Torp bulkers

...though I had forgotten they halved the effectiveness of roof 250s in test

[mint sinew]

They are still the most cost efficient thing that fits in that capacity unfortunately.

You could give up shooting anything heavier than a Vauxhall and run T20s in those slots if you wanted a bit more flexibility

[supple sonnet]

and even on test they still pack a decent punch, espicay with 3 AEs

[mint sinew]

Yeah and for mixed liners the 250mm is important for breaking DTs, even at lowered volumes.

[olive blade]

I do wonder about a mix of t20 and 250

just to hassle sprinters with grape

but you probably do need the 250

[supple sonnet]

2/4 torps and a savo or two of 250 works well enough for the Reverend Mother's Toybox from our experince, even if it's a bit tricky to get the pinpoint and 250's on the same target.

[mint sinew]

Doing away with most of the reliance on 250mm also means you can comfortably drop the yard drive which is very tempting. The buffed long haul drive is so nice for aggressive positioning

[mint sinew]

I was wondering what layout you were using to get a pinpoint and 4 c53s on target

[supple sonnet]

Yeah the Chin pinpoint can do it at a weird 40 ish degre ange whent the ship is rolled ike 50 ish degrees or so, it's vary finicy but hopfuy you have the duncan still around. hopefuy

[mint sinew]

Makes sense. My roofgun builds either just run 3x C53 or rely entirely on others for locks. I might steal sneaking a pinpoint under the chin for the option

[supple sonnet]

Oh yeah it's great for when your driving a coarse at a soloman with 2 full salvos qued up and and just wating to go WaCom tight once your close enough

[bitter furnace]

Dazzler bugfixed, rocketainer renamed, starter fleets rearmed and reloaded

[wet root]

Wait, was that a new bug specific to test, or am I misunderstanding what was happening with jammers?

Or was that only for automatic target assignment rather than manual?

If the latter does that mean SAH AMMs are actually usable now?

[bitter furnace]

Dazzlers and illuminators worked fine when manually tasked, but when autotasked would sometimes fail to work at all because the PD controller was rapidly swapping targets, flickering the ewar instead of holding it. That's now fixed. This also means that now, when you reassign any ewar device to a new nearby target, it'll keep operating while it rotates over to the new target instead of turning off until aligned

so yes, SAH AMMs are back on the menu

[rigid bison]

Does this also make it so the dazzler works properly?

[bitter furnace]

Yes that was the main thing that prompted a bugfix so late in the update cycle

Illums are a happy side effect

[night fable]

The stream is live! I'm hosting yet more NEBULOUS: Fleet Command viewer games on my Twitch channel below - bring your fleets and join the battle!
https://www.twitch.tv/docvivileandra <@&942093958551588904>

[quiet quiver]

Per balcom some of the starter fleets got major changes, which should bring up the performance of underperforming ones. Plus a new OSP fleet, Cobalt Squadron

[bitter furnace]

yeeeee loads of starters got changed which I'm super excited about

[wet root]

Ooh, EWAR not turning off is also really nice

[rigid bison]

wonder if this will lower the skill floor for defensive Blanketing enough that it becomes really common?

[wet root]

It doesn't really change the skill floor much

Or at all really

It's more relevant for area-targeting rather than track-targeting

[junior heron]

we need to play on Caltrop this boat night

apparently all the default maps got festive little updates

most of the maps got covered in fondant upper space snow, but caltrop gets light strings!

[oak shell]

I will play Caltrop right now

[junior heron]

fuck it
<@&942093958551588904> would anyone like to play the festive caltrop map exactly one time so that we can have our fill before boat night?

[misty storm]

perhaps

[rigid bison]

busy goofing around with the Mardurk gigaship

[wicked mirage]

[junior heron]

can't believe you've lied to me like this ;_;

[oak shell]

Sorry I'll be there soon!

Never mind I will not be there soon

[wicked mirage]

@rigid bison @misty storm Apologies, all I wanted to say was that it was fun playing with you guys xD have a good night.

[misty storm]

yeah! was fun

[grand pine]

what is boat night?

[junior heron]

every Saturday, we have a scheduled time to play Nebulous when most everyone's schedules line up.

We ideally have all fleets ready then so we can get in and play - I think it'd be worth reminding everyone about this as we've got a lot of new-ish players since boat night started.

there's some voice channels that get opened up that are only visible if you have the Nebulous: Fleet Command role (which you can grab in the bot channel)

[grand pine]

are you playing on the test version of the game?

[oak shell]

Generally yes

[wary flame]

this was posted by Mazer so it's officially sanctioned

[wary flame]

I have a genuinely deranged idea for getting containers through softkill that this margin is too narrow to contain

and probably will not work

[sharp crow]

what's the idea

[wary flame]

tell you once I manage to make it work even once on the test range because if it doesn't I'll have to fall back on my three less stylish crazy ideas

like triple seeker designed entirely to enable a successful wake primary shot

[quiet quiver]

Tell me none of them are getting really good at pos-fire

[wary flame]

no but TRP CMD with a bloodhound tug is in there

and probably the most practical

also Act/Wake spam with the widest corkscrew I can get, in the hope that wild swirling will result in random successful target acquires

[supple sonnet]

I do think that a super wide corkscrew would do a number on squadrons of small ships, just form the, as Nu-containers are hard enough to doge wiht a five corves with out a loss when they are not direct fired

[olive blade]

I guess if your prediction is perfect you can just have the seeker turn on super late

[wary flame]

afraid not, need to deploy decoys early

[olive blade]

ah right yeah

hrm

and I guess having some being the decoy ones with longer seekers or a different seeker activation point doesn't work

well the micro for the latter seems pretty impossible I think

[junior heron]

okay but I want to know even if you don't get it to work.

[tulip vault]

ACT/[ACT]/ACT

[junior heron]

i think my scout containers are WAKE/WAKE/WAKE

maybe SAH instead

[tulip vault]

actually... I just realised that WAKE/[WAKE] actually does have an effect I think

[junior heron]

does it?

[tulip vault]

I hope it doesn't work in practice but since wake val doesn't care about flares,

wait

actually I still have no idea what wake primary actually looks for

[junior heron]

I think it would work there

validators don't find flares because the seeker isn't looking for flares

[wary flame]

this container liner is steadily starting to blow more and more points on utility to the point it only gets eight or so strikes a game, which isn't great

but at least rocket containers work in small numbers

[quiet quiver]

How many strikes do you get in your live build?

[wary flame]

ten, if I split between EO/D and the new rocket containers in the way I want

[quiet quiver]

Okay so not a huge drop but still significant

[wary flame]

a lot of the newer liners are dumping 140+ offensive containers but they're all pretty low tier

these are as gucci as you can get

can squeeze up to nine strikes but then I have zero leftover basic spam which is not good

[sharp crow]

good name

threat onion futures act

[wary flame]

this container salvo has its internal spacings precisely calculated and I'm not sure they'll be adequate, which is a brand new problem I have not previously encountered

spacing at max range between first component and second component is about 1.25km, which is not enough because SSJ has a range of 1.5km, so I just have to pray that the bubble is kind

ideally I want to lower the spacing as far as possible whille still working against the SSJ AMM, but I can't even reach the threshold where it's guaranteed to work

[junior heron]

okay Misc, what was the deranged idea that probably did not work

[wary flame]

salvo leader AMM containers

identical seeker complement, improved agility, identical speed and range

5pts with base frag, 11pts with EL frag, but I'll decide which I need if I can get proof of functionality

not sure if I can just tack them on to the front of a salvo at the same speed, which would be ideal because it means you can hide the AMMs, or whether I need to make them faster so they space out ahead

no seeker combo will get me past this jammer AMM, so I need a long-range cruise-guided antiradiation counter-countermissile container

which is a weapon profile that didn't exist until I invented it a few hours ago

[sharp crow]

you just gotta fit a pavise on there. I've been saying.

[wary flame]

that comment was actually the inspiration

I can't get a pavise but I can get some kind of hardkill

[sharp crow]

bomber escort container would be great if it turns out to work

early access carrier dlc

[wary flame]

the countermeasure is fairly straightforward so I don't expect it to scale, but it's worth trying to see if I can punch out one bowling ball

[junior heron]

ah, I did actually try that

couldn't get it to consistently kill the SSJ

[wary flame]

what were your specs?

[junior heron]

HoJ, minimum EL, slightly higher speed and maneuverability, and detonate on target lost

the problem was it wasn't far enough ahead, and the decoys would still separate early anyway

and all the other containers would get looped

[wary flame]

my decoys are launching off EACT, so hopefully they're being fired already

[tulip vault]

this is so deranged and I love it

[wary flame]

and I noticed that most of the containers only started looping when they got past the centrepoint of the SSJ bubble

so maybe I can get away with it

if not, I can crank up speed until I get 1.4km separation at max range, any higher gets prohibitive, and see if that works

[sharp crow]

gotta ask mazer for a sprint stage amm container

the front doors fly open and a smaller container comes out

[wary flame]

EACT Detect Small Targets might also help to get it aimed early

[quiet quiver]

AMM CM-4R12?

[sharp crow]

container that flies open and blasts a dozen grape shots

[glad aurora]

unironically, I expect OSP container gameplay to open up significantly when you can have parasite fighters launched off of your ships that can escort your containers to target

slap a "suppress point defenses" order on

[wary flame]

I would rather not wait literally two years to have a ship, but in the meantime it's AMM gaming

[quiet quiver]

Well... per Mazer's comment last year the OSP carrier hull is already here

The container liner is gonna pull dual duty while th ANS gets a dedicated one

[wary flame]

sure, but first we need to wait for next patch, get next patch, wait for conquest, get conquest, then wait for the carrier update and hope nothing gets in the way

this is a bit like "wait for the second faction" in Jan 22

[wet root]

What seekers do people use for the very active decoy? Could you put a BSSJ EACT detect small targets container in there and have it go off track before it gets in range of normal SSJ?

[quiet quiver]

I heard chatter the balance patch might land today

[wary flame]

big patch out today

but there will apparently be at least one more

the activist decoy has no seeker

[wet root]

Ah, sensible

Don't want it to explode

[quiet quiver]

Also is cheaper

[quiet quiver]

Were plans for it mentioned or just its existence?

[wary flame]

it's apparently "the CLN patch" which I have absolutely zero confidence in because of how wild the changes were this time around

[quiet quiver]

Ahhh I see

[wary flame]

and how much any talk about the CLN provokes massive crying from a few veteran players who dislike the fact it exists and think it's impossible to balance

[glad aurora]

simply don't be on the official neb server, easy.

[tulip vault]

we're gonna get plasma warheads, I can feel it in my bones

[wary flame]

which will be bloody useless because high ex actually kills things

[tulip vault]

yes

I really don't want plasma warheads but I swear something on that tier is going to show up, I just know it

[grand pine]

wait, parasite fighters?

[glad aurora]

if we'd get a new warhead choice, what might be actually interesting is "when this container is destroyed, jam the point defense thing that shot it for a short period"

But that'll never happen

[wary flame]

Mazer was perfectly happy to just hammer cruise missile seeker reliability as part of a Vibes Patch and then throw out fifty different massive changes, I really think most of these bug fixes and previously intended things should be considerably more considered, but I suppose if it wrecks the CLN it just becomes a different kind of wrecked

I like triple seeker life but softkill should perhaps be a little less trivial if this is how everything's going to work

[tulip vault]

yeah

I think chaff and flares are too cheap for how good softkill is right now

[wary flame]

the number one problem is "literally everything eats shit to blankets or SSJ"

[grand pine]

SSJ?

[wary flame]

missile Self Screening Jammer

[grand pine]

oh

that's some advanced missile building, isn't it?

[junior heron]

not super advanced, but does require making a custom missile and understanding why it works that way

[quiet quiver]

Not technically true, CMD and WAKE have different issues

I actually saw Mazer's comment on removing EO from OSP, his thoughts are that giving ANS viable softkill options will "improve their PD diversity" which I'm kinda "hmm" at as a mostly-outside observer but maybe yes that does mean less hardkill threat which'd mean more usable CMD

But he also doesn't like the existence of manual weave

[wary flame]

the diversity argument is correct, but in that case I would like slightly less binary softkill such that you can get leakers heading into hardkill to force you to vary that up too

CMD is not a cruise seeker, wake is not really a primary pick but possibly that's changed

[quiet quiver]

Actually, quick question about offset jamming, it even works if outside the seeker cone, right?

[wary flame]

it works if you're ahead of the seeker cone, arad can't see distance, but you can't jam a missile from behind

not really an issue for most fleets because the jammers are in the fleets

[junior heron]

it's an issue for me sometimes

need to get better about sending my corvette charging ahead

[sharp crow]

I'm mostly worried with softkill supremacy that it's going to be even more of a binary state of nothing hits vs I die

missiles are already kind of there but with softkill there's no other way it'll end up

[wet root]

It's kind of binary in a different way, it doesn't have the hardkill aspect of "two leakers knocked out my PD and now I will eat four salvos"

[wary flame]

"is my opponent competent enough/aware enough to press two buttons on time" is also kind of an annoying state to be in as a missile player

[quiet quiver]

I was wondering if like a 30 deg cone could be jammed from like 70 deg off

[wet root]

Yeah, "ship that only works when my opponent misplays" is not a healthy design

I'm also rather worried it might lead to EWAR being nerfed, IMO it's in a pretty healthy state except the whole containers issue

[wet root]

I don't think you can

[sharp crow]

maybe mazer will land on a good solution somewhere

I still think the eo but takes up your programming slot for the duration of the missile flight was a fun idea

[wary flame]

I have very little confidence in any kind of missile balance patch for the CLN purely because half the vets who don't play one loath the idea of ever getting hit by a container and are willing to doompost about any possible buff

[quiet quiver]

Thijs: Thematically that's CMD, maybe CMD just needs to be cruise-compatible

[wary flame]

making it thoroughly miserable to discuss without half a dozen people being passive-aggressive at you

[sharp crow]

missile gameplay has been really boring/bad for me the last couple times I've played anyway though so I'm not the right person to speculate on it

[junior heron]

I'll also say, for all the mention of it Misc, you still were able to handle CLN pretty well last boat night. Though like you said, I think people will take time adopt the softkill strategies.

Missile gameplay for me has been sniping lone capture shuttles or radar tugs, which are targets that a beam battleship has a bit of time actually tracking down and hitting without sacrificing a lot of positioning.

[wary flame]

the one salvo that was opposed by a single SSJ AMM did nothing

I saw this in some stacked games on the various neb servers too, people going "hardkill is doomed, CLN OP" and then not bringing blankets or SSJ or even active decoy

as soon as softkill actually shows up life is spectacularly harder

[quiet quiver]

But would you play softkill-only BB?

[junior heron]

ah, i've mostly been around for test branch boat night as I'm too lazy to swap between fleets and branches :P

[junior heron]

okay so fun fact: 4 blankets is enough to hide a battleship at about 5km

[sharp crow]

I missed last boat night but the one before I had a game where my vauxhalls were failing to kill shuttles while I got container and gale dumped by ships offscreen

[wary flame]

no, but I would play solo BB because you don't really need the escorts any longer

[junior heron]

I learned this with Pyrope on the caltrop match

[sharp crow]

which was just miserable honestly

then seeing vauxhalls get nerfed in the following test patch because apparently they were too hard to kill for their dps was a bit of a whiplash

[junior heron]

yeah, I haven't quite gotten "just orbit dodgeulous" to work

though I keep ending up with my CLs way too close

[sharp crow]

I think I'm just kinda burnt out on neb is what I'm realising now

[glad aurora]

Dodge CLs are also weirdly pigeonholed into one or two weapon choices, which I just find... boring.

I've talked about my dislike for "a Vauxhall fleet where all you do is Command Gun" before

[quiet quiver]

Well, torps seem pretty viable too now

[junior heron]

fair - when/if you're feeling it again, it's always a pleasure playing with you.

[glad aurora]

Torpedo vaux seems weird to have out in the open playing dodgeulous games, especially because you lose missile duels hard if you've got torpedoes instead of S3H

[quiet quiver]

I was thinking as an alternative to pure gun, but hmm

[supple sonnet]

can do that with 3 blankets as ong as it's not a ocello, but yeah OPS radar is jamable enough to hide a BB with out to much eort.

TomZero (Tommy, he/him) ↩️

[Reply to:](#1164000873031151637 message) okay so fun fact: 4 blankets is enough to hide a battleship at about 5km

[wet root]

Biggest problem for that is Bloodhounds, since BBs definitely can't do the Raines thing of being too small to see

But that's a matter of positioning and/or missiles

[junior heron]

4 prowler BB:

(it has yet to arrive so it can't say anything)

[wet root]

Still a tragedy that they nerfed the quad prowler BB

I want my invisible rock back

[wet root]

This is why you put jammers and Raiders on them, so you also command position and command ewar

[quiet quiver]

I feel weird about the game design of multiple drives

The ludonarrative of it, basically

[junior heron]

you're right, they should stack up to higher max speeds

[wary flame]

the issue was mostly that when you blobbed twelve of them up they kind of rolled everything because you can't sneak around a vaux swarm like you can a capital deathblob

and they ate lineships and ocellos too fast for the difference in durability to matter

[supple sonnet]

Yeah BH and EWR is what part of why we llike to keep the Queen of HUnger near rocks, as in therory we can hide her behind them if we need to (or when the jammers are on cool down)

Lark (They/Them) ↩️

[Reply to:](#1164000873031151637 message) Biggest problem for that is Bloodhounds, since BBs definitely can't do the Raines thing of being too…

[wet root]

https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/887570/view/3868092443211225986

[tulip vault]

oh hey it's here

[quiet quiver]

I did not know HEKP containers were possible for a testing patch

[wary flame]

Additionally, rocket containers are now susceptible to triggering on chaff and active decoys. ah, I wasn't just imagining this

[grand pine]

is it the main game update or the test version update?

[tulip vault]

they weren't before??

[wary flame]

I think they were too bad for it to matter

they couldn't hit a ship travelling in a straight line chaff or no chaff

[wet root]

Main

[glad aurora]

test games show much more missile build diversity.
If that's the data that's been gotten out of "a few weeks of people scrambling to make any usable missile," I'm somewhat concerned

[quiet quiver]

Aha! Found the thing I misread as being torpedoes HP, it's the torpedo turret

• Increased TLS-3 HP to 350 (was 175).

[tulip vault]

ohh

that's nice

[wet root]

I mean, that's only really containers, and even then it's helped diversity a lot

"Literally only EO/D" was effective but very much not diverse

[supple sonnet]

Yeah Torps and S2's still work fine

[wet root]

And wake actually works as a seeker now! At least somewhat!

Increased aperture size of R400 LRT to 100 (was 70).
what does this mean?

[supple sonnet]

Well we lost our HEKP s1's on our OSP ships just as they were actuay getting good. but also that's the most holdout sidearm posabe

Radar equsasion stuff, meaning that more radation is going to be comming into the recever IWRC

Lark (They/Them) ↩️

[Reply to:](#1164000873031151637 message) And wake actually works as a seeker now! At least somewhat!

[glad aurora]

This is also a great buff, for what it's worth; it means my torp vaux can actually hang out for more than 0.1 seconds taking fire and still get a salvo off

before, it seriously risked just getting a few of its turrets smashed and losing its kill-shot

[supple sonnet]

It shoud et it see smaller ships with out becomeing to much more vaunrabe to jamming

[wary flame]

I have maybe a week's left of scrambling left in me, maybe we can cook something up

[wet root]

Hm, looking at the equations I think this is just a 43% buff to the return power in all situations for them

[wary flame]

but personally I would like some form of premium all-aspect cruise seeker that is resistant to blankets and has its own flavour of dazzler, to complexify ANS softkill a bit

[quiet quiver]

How much better were they compared to HEI?

[wet root]

Will need to check how that impacts distance you can see small stuff at

[wary flame]

this proposal has become known as "lime dazzler" for some reason

[rigid bison]

Yeah the issue, IMO, is shrimply that containers can be defeated by stuff a decent ANS player carries already

[supple sonnet]

baray worth the exrtra point, but worth it to bring along with some HEI

Techskull ↩️

[Reply to:](#1164000873031151637 message) How much better were they compared to HEI?

[wet root]

Yeah, the same issue occurs for MLS ships but at least for them it only degrades salvo size, you don't lose the missiles in them too

[glad aurora]

Yup, if I lost one of the turrets that had my Extremely Expensive Cluster Decoy Warhead torpedoes in them, it was a big "shit, what do I do now" moment

admittedly, most people don't make EWAR missiles that are the approximate cost equivalent of hefting up an entire corvette and throwing it at you

[supple sonnet]

IMO, putting your eggs a in one basket like that, you shoud expect to lose it fast

[quiet quiver]

Oh I know what OSP needs to replace EO. You know how there's ACT and EACT?

[sharp crow]

I had a lot of fun with my torpcello

you just have to play like a submarine

[quiet quiver]

I propose Advanced Wake, or AWAKE for short

[glad aurora]

Yeah, that's why I've gravitated to doing exactly what Thijs mentioned and playing it like a submarine

Ideally, unless you're playing a very good OSP yub player, you should never be getting shot in the first place until you're ready to remove something from the map

also much like most submarines in Europe, this means they stick painfully closely to coastlines and have a small operational range

[wet root]

I do like ANS's torp boats being a bit more resilient than OSP's at the cost of being even pricier

[quiet quiver]

Anyway time to look over the new/updated starters

[grand pine]

wait, new starters?

[wet root]

I really like this idea actually

[wet root]

They updated the starters and added one new one IIRC

[supple sonnet]

IDK about that Trucks run about 3k and are decently resilient with the new DCX

Lark (They/Them) ↩️

[Reply to:](#1164000873031151637 message) I do like ANS's torp boats being a bit more resilient than OSP's at the cost of being even pricier

[quiet quiver]

I don't remember Hemlock but wow what a hybrid cruiser

Mk65, beam, and VLS-3

[grand pine]

god maybe i need to boot up nebulous.. to get decision paralysis when building a fleet and give up cause it will get destroyed easily with no change of fighting back

[wet root]

True, it's more a different flavour of resilience. Which is nice!

[wet root]

It really is decision paralysis: the game

[supple sonnet]

Yeah it is

Lark (They/Them) ↩️

[Reply to:](#1164000873031151637 message) True, it's more a different flavour of resilience. Which is nice!

[glad aurora]

Hemlock is new

[wet root]

Simply do what I do, and whenever the decision is between quality and quantity, choose the latter (note: not actually recommended for new players)

[quiet quiver]

Okay, and Cobalt is a 250mm 450mm Ocello and three 600mm/100mm monitors

[wet root]

250mm Ocello hissssss

[quiet quiver]

Whoops, misread the loadout

[wet root]

Oh lol

[supple sonnet]

"quantity has a quality all of it's owm" ~ Duncan Idaho

Lark (They/Them) ↩️

[Reply to:](#1164000873031151637 message) Simply do what I do, and whenever the decision is between quality and quantity, choose the latter (n…

[quiet quiver]

I don't know the gun Mks yet so I went "okay, def not 120s" and forgot 450 existed

[wet root]

Ah fair lol

And admittedly I don't think 250 Ocellos are that unreasonable

[grand pine]

what's wrong with 250?.-.

[wet root]

Being able to kill things smaller than a Vaux is quite nice

[glad aurora]

I used to have all 250mm ocellos, they couldn't kill anything

so now my 2x Ocello fleet is 1x 450/1x 250 on each

[wet root]

Shorter range and you can't fight BBs or Axfords

Benefit is you can kill Sprinters and Raines a lot more easily

[quiet quiver]

@wary flame Mind if I ask your quick thoughts on ACT/[CMD]?

[wet root]

Not Misc, but the reason it's a lot worse now than before is its main purpose is killing scouts off ELINT/EWR tracks, and track-fired missiles try to lead their targets now, which means they'll sail off into the void from the inaccuracy

(For non-scouts they just get jammed)

[wary flame]

requires TRP fire which opens up a significant vulnerability to sarissas eating the entire salvo, requires holding a track, vulnerable to blankets

better use pure CMD and trust your team's Bloodhounds

[wet root]

I suppose you could run CMD/ACT[CMD] containers now and run them off EWRs

Or ACT[CMD]/CMD I mean

[wary flame]

[CMD] on Accept might be the way

Arad/Act/[CMD]

[wet root]

Vulnerable to cmd jamming of course, but should be able to cmd close enough to break jamming on the act

[quiet quiver]

Oh the s2s in this fleet are ACT/[CMD] direct, huh

[tulip vault]

...strange

[wet root]

You need reject for this one or you just get your decoys popped by jamming/activest, right?

[tulip vault]

I guess if you can't guarantee a lock? I dunno how CMD val works anymore

[quiet quiver]

This is Kyanite squadron, the desc says the missiles are for handling flankers

[wet root]

Kyanite, is that OSP?

[quiet quiver]

Yeah

Two 450 bulkers

[wary flame]

yes, it's purely to let you hit a ship if you get radar jammed

[supple sonnet]

[CMD] on direct in that case would ignore the ""swarm defence"" of a lot of swarm/squadron fleets

[wet root]

Means you can fire at stuff outside 6.5k without a Bloodhound I guess

[wet root]

Ohhh makes sense

[quiet quiver]

I also see the only OSP starter with any sort of containers is Wulfanite, which has 4R6s on the monitor

[glad aurora]

conLs should not be played by starters, so that makes sense

[wet root]

It might be nice to have a few more container backpacks but yeah definitely don't want a conl starter

[quiet quiver]

0 modular containers, mines, or decoys. And yeah no bulker backpacks either

[noble zodiac]

ok so i think there is actually a point to multidrive from a thematic perspective
in that it's basically an abstraction of engineering your [approximate drive section] to produce more thrust power rather than more electrical power with the same total amount of thermal output from the cores themselves

[quiet quiver]

Yeah that level makes sense, but gets weird with specialized drives and sets of buffs/debuffs

[noble zodiac]

well yeah like i said, its an abstraction

cuz just in general most of the drives are net positives to your thrust output

"what about the prowler" reducing output to reduce signature

tbf the whiplash might be less of a net gain but the dragonfly is skewed high by enough to account for it

[quiet quiver]

Huh, OSP also only has 1 fleet w/ s2s (Kyanite w/ the aforementioned direct ACT/[WAKE]) and no fleet with torps

[supple sonnet]

2x small whiplashs and 2x big dragons is how the Queen of Hunger is abe to out flank TF oak, so i don't know if there lesser net gain matters all that much.

Gamma, Spreadsheet Sorceress ↩️

[Reply to:](#1164000873031151637 message) tbf the whiplash might be less of a net gain but the dragonfly is skewed high by enough to account f…

Weird but also big one ship fleets are somthign the starte fleets tend to aviod, but do you want an OSP torp fleet to use?

Techskull ↩️

[Reply to:](#1164000873031151637 message) Huh, OSP also only has 1 fleet w/ s2s (Kyanite w/ the aforementioned direct ACT/[WAKE]) and no fleet…

[quiet quiver]

IDK, noting that OSP starters are very gun-heavy and considering my thoughts on that, esp in light of OSP missile changes

[supple sonnet]

Fair and resonable

[wet root]

OSP missiles do tend to encourage building a critical mass, so it's understandable that they don't have many partly-missile fleets, but it's also rather unfortunate

(Torpedoes Lark, who lives in a tug and fires salvos of three at a time, is an outlier and should not be counted)

[bitter furnace]

the LRT now spots frigates at around 12.5km instead of 11.5km, giving it much more breathing room to stay in the gap between Blanket jam range and outside effective range

[quiet quiver]

But there's also no OSP missile focused fleet either, whether conner or bulker or feeder

Whereas ANS has Sycamore w/ a heavy missile focus

[wet root]

Having a Gale fleet would be nice, I can understand avoiding torps since they require a fair bit of positioning knowledge

[wet root]

That's a really nice change

[quiet quiver]

I also totally understand no mines in starters

[wet root]

Players already blow themselves up with mines too much

[quiet quiver]

Exactly

[bitter furnace]

The order was no new starters, just update existing ones unfortunately. I still managed to cyberbully Mazer enough to include SQ Cobalt because they really needed an oaklike starter

[rigid bison]

Honestly the best OSP missile starter would be an MMT swarm.

[quiet quiver]

Oh I see, Cobalt was bullying

[bitter furnace]

yeah the bullying budget was spent on that, sorry

[quiet quiver]

Honestly legit

[rigid bison]

Oakcello is a good comp, after all

[supple sonnet]

TBH Swarms and Squadren feets are not that newbie frendly even if they are efective when run right

[quiet quiver]

Turns out nope, it dates to Aug 2022

[grand pine]

wait, there are mines!?

[quiet quiver]

Yeah OSP has mines, make sure your comms work if you're near friendly ones

[junior heron]

I think it was added in the modular middle update. I'm pretty sure the only new starter fleet is OSP's Task Force Cobalt.

ah, Tech is already ahead of me

[glad aurora]

I suppose I just never checked the starter fleets after

[quiet quiver]

Sycamore was added the same update

[quiet quiver]

Is it The Isekai Truck?

[supple sonnet]

It's our version of it yeah

[quiet quiver]

I have an old version of it from the big tourney folder that I probably shouldn't use as is because some of the missiles lack seekers >.>

[supple sonnet]

Ahh yeah

well do you want one that has missle with seakers?

[runic torrent]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkF2zEzqWR4

[quiet quiver]

Prolly not using it but I'll keep it in mind. Or I slap CMD in where EO used to be I guess

[supple sonnet]

Not a bad choice TBH

[rigid bison]

We need to do the Tourney again with all the stuff that’s been added and removed

[supple sonnet]

we do have some new players, so we would like them to get a good handle on the game befoer that

[olive blade]

fwiw

I don't think making cmd work on cruise fixes this

its not that much work for the ship to bring a comms jammer

[supple sonnet]

It is an opportunity coast, like for a Vaux mounting one going to knock them down a gun or replace there backpack, or bringing an EWAR frig.

[olive blade]

yeah it comes at a cost

but I think if osp doesn't have many options that becomes cheap

because if you have full softkill that basically works you don't need to invest nearly as much in pd

[wet root]

I think ideally you want softkill for containers to be pricey enough that bringing a complete suite of both it and hardkill for gales in a single 3k is a notable drain on your capabilities elsewhere

The issue is right now a lot of that softkill is jamming or fits in a VLS-2, both of which you want to be bringing anyway

[olive blade]

yeah and the jamming is also very good against gales

osp doesn't get that many mounts so

if they want to bring a ton of illums to fight it, that hurts

[wet root]

Yep, although AFAIK they haven't fixed the issue where SAH/WAKE sometimes just decide to disregard jamming entirely

[olive blade]

wake shouldn't be jammable? if its on aspect

[wet root]

But relying on a bug for your faction's missiles to work is not ideal

[wet root]

The problem is SAH sometimes sees through for a brief moment every few seconds

Which is just often enough to align the missiles through the jamming

[supple sonnet]

Wake secondary seekers, also make so the gales dont wobble to jamming.

[wet root]

So the wake keeping it from doing the wiggle means you can just hit through jamming at any aspect sometimes

[olive blade]

hmmm

maybe the blanket should just cost 120 points and take twice the power

it would still be good haha

(this is a joke)

(but kinda not given how much it does now)

[wet root]

My jamming frigates would be about 60% blanket by price

The Ocello is outdated equipment though, so it should get to keep the old price

[supple sonnet]

we would have to cut 1.5 of the queen of hungers escorts at that price

[wet root]

But more seriously, I don't think it's EWAR that's the problem, frankly ANS doesn't bring enough already

And OSP has lots of answers, it's just for missiles specifically it's awkward

Here's a video of that SAH bug btw, I haven't tested it super recently but AFAIK it's still there

[olive blade]

Hrm I think the issue is more that ewar totally stopping missiles while also blinding ships is a lot

[wet root]

That combined with the nominal counter (ARAD missiles) being very easy to trick with offsets/activest decoy

[olive blade]

I kinda wonder if ARAD needs fixes

I'm not sure exactly what they would be

but it feels like the seeker not doing its job

[wet root]

Someone in here suggested giving it a search radar only mode, which would be nice IMO

Giving SSJs a minimum arming time might also be nice, would only really impact the activest decoy

[junior heron]

lets give seekers the ability to reject validated targets :P
reject HoJ to avoid SSJ
reject SAH then illuminate everything but the target you want

its genius

[tulip vault]

Honestly Im still not opposed to giving radars some significant to semi-significant boot-up and shutdown time

[junior heron]

reject CMD, then fire on chaff to spread the volley

[tulip vault]

If nothing else in a test branch to just see

[wet root]

Only if it has unique sound cues for shutting down and turning on

[tulip vault]

And only if the radars on OSP ships stop spinning

[olive blade]

I think a boot and shutdown time for radars would be good

also it looks like the patch is live so no more test branch?

[wet root]

Yep!

[junior heron]

oh yeah, time to move all the test fleets to the main folders

[wet root]

Significantly reducing the traverse rate of EWAR in general could be good now that it stays on when adjusting the angle

Makes it harder to respond to missiles from unexpected angles at brief notice, without really impacting ability to cover enemy fleets

(Previously they had to be fast because otherwise you couldn't really retarget them without getting shot)

[tulip vault]

I wouldn't mind that either

[wet root]

It gives a good reason to bring the sphere jammers too

[junior heron]

got it, expect all these changes, plus the 120 cost blanket in the next patch

[wet root]

I do wonder how expensive you could make the blanket before it became unusable

Because I doubt 120 would be enough lol

[junior heron]

200+

though maybe cheaper

[tulip vault]

I dunno

120 is like

[junior heron]

and you just begin using single-use BSSJs

[tulip vault]

other than for missiles a single blanket does do a ton

*doesn't

[wet root]

Depends on the ship, it does a lot for Raines and Vauxen

Raines in particular would be real sad about a price hike

Hm, according to the wiki EACT is just as vulnerable to jamming as ACT, TIL

Same power and gain at least

[rigid bison]

ARAD needs the ability to select what kind of radar it homes on, likely at a price.

[wet root]

That'd be the search radar only mode

[olive blade]

I have said it before but I kinda would like an arad/cmd hybrid that when it picks up a jam, marks it as the cmd target

and holds to it as long as you can hold vision of it

like a sorta sticky arad

[wet root]

Of course it's sticky, you dropped it in jam

(But that is an interesting idea, it would be similar to locking a jam LOB except reliant on outside radar as I understand it)

[olive blade]

I'm struggling to quite get the idea right in my head

but I think some sort of kinda sticky thing for jamming

is really needed

[wet root]

Woop Discord crash

What if jammers had a similar spooldown time to the proposed one for radar, where they continued to emit signals HoJ could track for 30-60 seconds after turning off?

[supple sonnet]

I think that would hurt gunships that have jammers to fight under more then it would hurt offset jammers bating ARAD.

[olive blade]

I think offsets baiting hoj is okay if it actually hits them

the problem is you can sorta do range gate pulloff

[supple sonnet]

Yeah, though Mazer is proud to see the player base pull that off baised off what he said in Bal-Con on the matter IWRC

[wet root]

I think range gate pulloff is difficult and situational enough it's fine if it's effective for now

[mint sinew]

I don't mind relatively high skill/micro options for softkill existing yeah. in that case you always have the option to shoot the escort or cruise in from a bad angle

[wet root]

Spending the points and micro to put a jammer at the right distance is hard enough, and a strike from the wrong angle negates it anyway

[quiet quiver]

Sticky CMD secondary in general would be neat, where it’ll remember a valid track generated by another seeker

[wet root]

CMD validator that just accepts any tracks ID'd as ships would be really nice

Would give more value to intel center, especially if it would reject ships marked as evacuated

[quiet quiver]

Could do like SAH/CMD where you only need brief illumination or WAKE/CMD where if it finds your engines full stop can’t save you

[olive blade]

yeah

[olive blade]

in theory you can do the same pulloff from the escort

tbh I think like a team strategy where you just have a lot of single jammers spread out pulling from and covering eachother is very hard to beat

and probably doesn't take crazy micro

[wet root]

I don't really see that much value in a sticky CMD secondary over a CMD primary if that's all it does? But I could be missing something

[wet root]

I think the vulnerability here is you have a bunch of offset jammers that Vauxes/Tugs can go eat, and it takes a lot of investment that might not pay off if they don't bring that many missiles

But it is a quite flexible strategy, because you can always bring your offsets closer in to act as more traditional jamming escorts

[quiet quiver]

Gets you some of CMD’s benefits without needing to be initially fired on a track

[wet root]

(Also my spooldown time suggestion would limit their ability to cover each other at least)

[mint sinew]

I did mean shoot them with guns. "Shoot them until their pd degrades" is much easier when the PD is on a distinct ship

[olive blade]

shooting stuff until pd degrades is like

it sounds nice but I find that the pd only reliably stops when the pods come out

[wet root]

Makes sense, another solution to the "TRPs kinda suck" problem

[olive blade]

and at least in the past was not an option for osp, though maybe the big boom monitors can do it

[mint sinew]

Yeah, which is why when the PD is a sprinter that you can fill with grapeshot the plan is easier

[olive blade]

shooting escorts off big ships is a pain because the big ship is there

vauxes definitely do it super well

[wet root]

I find a MD monitor or two do well for that, but you need someone to give you eyes

[olive blade]

they can do it too yeah

but they need time and space to work

and thats starting to head into multiple fleets together

which is fine but they will have multiple fleets too

[mint sinew]

I guess having reasons to rely on your teammates is my ideal version of the game, so that bias is coming through

[quiet quiver]

Oh, huh. I was thinking mostly about missiles earlier but there’s no MDs in the OSP starters either

[olive blade]

I do like having to rely on your teammates too

but I think thats in part the issue

you can bring all the defense alone

[wet root]

Yeah, my ideal is that you can bring all the defense alone, but it really eats into your budget

Enough that you'll lose to an equivalent fleet that's relying on friends to cover one or more aspect of missile defense

Oh, btw, @olive blade , I realised EWR-fired (and ELINT-fired, if the ELINT is on an Ocello) scout killers are back on the menu

ACT[CMD]/CMD containers

[mint sinew]

Do you need a large salvo to beat a defender? Those might be tempting to slap on the back of a bulker group

[olive blade]

yeah and honestly

I think osp is in a good place there

its really hard to have everything in self contained osp fleets

and they trade a lot when they exist

[olive blade]

hmmm I never quite brained my way around the 3 seeker containers

how do these work, so the cmd locks the elint track? I don't quite get the value of the second command

[mint sinew]

Act/[CMD] to hit the target and not chaff, CMD to chase down the track without needing to predict exact location

[olive blade]

hmmm

I guess jamming is still an issue if you are firing on a bad track

but otherwise seems good

[rigid bison]

I am once again asking for some kind of "cruise CMD" for OSP

[wet root]

I don't think jamming is even that much of a concern, even an awful track should get the ACT close enough to break jamming

And if it does miss it should just come around again

[olive blade]

hmmm maybe

[wet root]

As far as I'm aware, even with the speed increase one defender will eat basically as many containers as you can throw at it without decoys

The reduction in launch delay on CLNs might have changed that a bit but I wouldn't bet on it

[olive blade]

might as well put decoys on then

[mint sinew]

Yeah might try a split with act/CMD/decoy and see what it takes to hit a lone scout

[wet root]

ACT/CMD/Decoy dies to chaff plus defender but that seems pretty rare

(It circles around after missing but by then the decoys are gone)

[olive blade]

so much work to update fleets haha

god

did a bit of testing with plasma and it felt a lot better

unsure if that will translate well to the real game but

[quiet quiver]

It's always funny when something gets a bugfix and a nerf but still feels like an improvement b/c the bugfix was that good

Oh wait it got buffs too

[bitter furnace]

it didn't get nerfed?

I mean it did at one point in testing but those got rolled back

[olive blade]

they could do literally anything to plasma

and call it a bugfix

and I'd buy it at this point

[quiet quiver]

Excerpted from the final patch:

• Added falloff to plasma component damage matching armor damage falloff over flight time.
• Increased rate of plasma armor and component damage falloff and decrease max range damage to 25% (was 50%).

[bitter furnace]

yeah but all of that is better than main branch used to be

sure now damage ranges from 60 to 15, but it used to be 12

sure now shred ranges from 60 to 15, but it used to be 30 to 15

which I guess yeah that's basically what you were saying

the bugfixes far outweigh everything else

[quiet quiver]

Damage used to be 12?

[bitter furnace]

yeah

it was bugged

only dealt 20% of its listed damage

[tulip vault]

Wow

Was any part of plasma working properly then? IIRC there was something about the falloff getting changed as well.

[bitter furnace]

not really no

there was also a bug with the armour shredding, it was doing twice the listed shred against Axfords and half the listed shred against Solomons

[wary flame]

Extremely normal weapon

Welp, no container bank split, so we're capped to the rather brutal 6-ish missile types forever. Better be some help with at least the SSJ AMMs then, or we're just dead meat as soon as that gets around because without extra bank slots there's no space for something like CMD TRP holdout containers to try and punch through any jamming.