Nebulous: Fleet Command

[junior heron]

honestly, patch has revitalized my interest a bit. I was worried with what felt like a lot of kneejerk doomsaying earlier, but I really have a lot more stuff I want to try on both factions.

[glad aurora]

What did patch change about torpedoes?

[noble zodiac]

nothing afaik

not specifically torpedoes tom is talking about tho i think xP

[glad aurora]

Ah, yeah, was more thinking patch changed something for torpedoes since Misc posted an updated one

[oak shell]

Next boat night on <t:1700942400:f>

[wary flame]

no direct torpedo changes but wake seeker now works as advertised, so I took the opportunity to stick an upgrade package on the crysknives

[oak shell]

correct?

[wary flame]

as far as I'm aware

[oak shell]

Also a buff to spyglass sprinters

which I think is interesting

might have to change my standard spotter ship

[mint sinew]

From exactly one test case in the boat night games I managed to fire Wake only torps into the drive of a monitor (because I'd lost comms for the main CMD)

[junior heron]

and it killed it, and it was sick

[wet root]

The wake validator nerf is also pretty notable for torps

(And the cost reduction)

[wary flame]

swapped the EWR on one of my MMTs for a dazzler and upgraded the S3Ts

lots of TLAs in this RTS

[mint sinew]

Also from the boat night games, I hope that the XL compartments make it to live in about their current state. The Citadel Mag holds the same amount of ammo as a 8x1x8 RMag, which tends to do fine for anything but missile boats and 450mm. I don't think they are broken, but they feel very nice to use. Supporting building liners as capital ships is nice

[oak shell]

Oh I didn't even try the cidatel mags

[supple sonnet]

Nither did i, nor the Damconcom

[wary flame]

citadel mag seems good, damconcom may make things a little beefy because I was just slugging it out with individual liners for five minutes and they were basically fine

[rigid bison]

yeah it gives Liners insane surviability...which lets them gunfight with ANS capitals and win

source: got gun-fought. often.

[supple sonnet]

Damconcom I think is the fix to skelital liners, like those still exiest but like no one realy plasthere here becouse 4+ liners at a time is not that fun to pilot or fight

[mint sinew]

DCCom contributed to the good feels, having access to the deeper repair threshold and a second giant armour plate made just walking out into aggressive engagements with a triple threat liner possibly too reasonable.

[rigid bison]

yeah I'm thinking of bringing back some ancient plasma/450/torp liners I have

[toxic scaffold]

660 points of never leaving the point

[lime jungle]

'The Brick' is a 'Cargo Feeder' class Monitor that costs 660 points.

[mint sinew]

What a little tonk.

[wet root]

Do you need the reactor? Could you swap it for an RDrive?

Oh wait there's probably a radar hidden below the fold

[supple sonnet]

There is and yeah if I could fit it in with out being 350%+ over on the power budget I woud definataly put in a Rdrivre

[wet root]

It might be worth losing one AE for small reactor to get the Rdrive?

[supple sonnet]

the forth AE dose not do much

[wet root]

Assuming you're using a Bridgemaster that is, I don't think you can get the power budget in with a Huntress sadly

[supple sonnet]

Yeah you can't but yeah with the bridemaster in there it works and the Small reactor it works

[wet root]

Could also just go Rdrive + big reactor, since it's not like you'll be moving once you get on the point anyway

I'm just a big fan of getting the Rdrive in somewhere since Yards are surprisingly squishy

[wary flame]

double fast boot containers: not good, very funny

[wet root]

Fireworks!

[wary flame]

f

[supple sonnet]

No but turn speed still matters a lot, the c90 has no traverse

Lark (They/Them) ↩️

[Reply to:](#1164000873031151637 message) Could also just go Rdrive + big reactor, since it's not like you'll be moving once you get on the po…

but with a small reactorI con dubble drive them

[mint sinew]

current dumb experiment: Mixed container/torp bulkers. Using decoy support containers to screen for a torp dump.

[wary flame]

I tried this with S2 MNs a while ago, when we first got support module warheads, and it worked decently but was a pain to time because one uses VLS and the other doesn't

I don't think good torps really need the decoys

[supple sonnet]

Oh Misc did you leave the drive triangle alone when you upgraded the Crysknifes?

[mint sinew]

That's likely where I'll end up I imagine. This evolved from trying 3xsalvo size 4 liners and then having the idea to mix in torps to up the salvo size

[wary flame]

yeah, exact same triangle but adding wake sec seeker and ticking the warhead up by 1 leaves them at 11.95pts, which is good value

so I took the slight range reduction, 5km is still good

also I noticed a lot of your sprinters eating one or two and living so the heavier warhead is still welcome there

so, new missile

[rigid bison]

Actually now that I think about it, S3H yub benifits from an additional "hard target" in the OSP's lineup in the form of DCC and Citadel Mag liners

[wary flame]

for some reason steerable and steerable extended active radar seekers are more expensive as validators

[wet root]

What did they actually change about wake seekers to make them more reliable?

[wet root]

Lol, guess this never got adjusted when they made them inherit from the primary seeker

[wet root]

I've noticed the same thing, Duncans are annoyingly survivable against torps

Though admittedly the torps I use are closer to S2s in warhead

2,880 damage on the evasive ones

[wary flame]

These new ones are also 2880, the original crysknives have tiny warheads

[wet root]

Oh lol

I just bumped my finishers up two steps to take advantage of the validator cost reduction, they don't have 7k range any more but 4.3k damage seems nice for getting rid of anything that loses its PD

[wary flame]

The 500pt torpedo MN was actually pretty sweet, it's like a beam destroyer but gun-resistant and turreted , in exchange for having a glass sundrive and no PD.

[wet root]

What do they have in their other big slot? Seems like it might be worth going secondary drive on those

Since you don't really need any buff modules

[wary flame]

Reactor purely to keep them cheap, but yes, could probably afford 20-40pts to double drive them

They're not getting DC beyond rapid no matter what because missile hits will scrap launchers anyway

[wet root]

I am very tempted to try to squish one of those in my OSP Stuff list

[wet root]

Yeah, and missiles won't kill your mags or RCICs, so if you have a secondary drive there's pretty low value from the restores

[wet root]

But on the other hand this would mean trying to cram the rest of my 7 ships in 1400 points which seems... challenging

[wary flame]

They're currently basic CIC because the sundrives are paper anyway, but I should probably scrounge an upgrade

They're very good at sprinter squadrons but I imagine anything with missile armament will eat them

[wet root]

Yeah, Monitors are at about the price point where I find it hard to excuse going with basics

Too easy to lose to a random S2H

And they have the DR to be immune to missiles

(Big scare quotes around "immune")

Hmmmm, maybe I should go 2x basic instead of 1x RCIC on my tugs

Losing the Reinforced tag isn't ideal but does the 40 DT actually hit anything significant?

[lime jungle]

Fleet '!-CapGaming' is composed of 7 ships that cost 3000 points:

Your Princess is in Another Castle : 'Cargo Feeder' class Monitor [Gun PD]
Your Princess is in Another Castle : 'Cargo Feeder' class Monitor [Gun PD]
Your Princess is in Another Castle : 'Cargo Feeder' class Monitor [Gun PD]
                      Duncan Idaho : 'Shuttle' class Clipper [Rocket PD]
                      Duncan Idaho : 'Shuttle' class Clipper [Rocket PD]
                      Duncan Idaho : 'Shuttle' class Clipper [EWar Rocket Sensor]
                      Duncan Idaho : 'Shuttle' class Clipper []

[supple sonnet]

And yeah the base Crysknives only have a 2-tick warhead

[wet root]

Oh, you can't really fit the crew in there with 2x basic CICs and a mag in a large slot

You can go basic CIC + aux steering

[supple sonnet]

And fixed the 100mm in one of the duncans after I posted this

LT Hazel ↩️

[Reply to:](#1164000873031151637 message) Fleet '!-CapGaming' is composed of 7 ships that cost 3000 points:

Your Princess is in Anothe… 📎

[wet root]

Basic has a high enough DT to survive RPF, right?

[supple sonnet]

From 120 only i think

[wary flame]

I think I prefer the 5km exclusion zone to the bricks, if they're lurking on your naturals

[wet root]

Component damage on 250 RPF is apparently only 16, so I might try downgrading all my tugs

[supple sonnet]

Yeah the Exclusion zone might be more more efective overall just becouse torps kill Capitals in a way that 600 HE-SH dose not

[wary flame]

They also dunk tiny ships very well, which OSP otherwise hates dealing with

[wet root]

Now that wake seekers are apparently useful, is the box of 1-point S1s good for FFL fights?

[noble zodiac]

depends if you've got the prog channels to fire them in relevant volume

[olive blade]

whats different about the wake seekers?

is it the holding still for a second thing?

this was a few patches ago

it got me too

and I had to change missile designs off cmd val

[wary flame]

I'm back on CMD Val now because wake val ate the nerfbat

So now it's an ewr/huntress/pinpoint tug so I can get a decent aimpoint more easily

[olive blade]

this was when they made missiles lead tracks when fired

the issue is that they lead the super inaccurate ewr track now

and the lead is even crazier than the track so they go wild

bc the ewr has a terrible speed and direction understanding

[wet root]

You'd have to ask Misc, I'm just going off this comment: #1164000873031151637 message

[mint sinew]

From the support notes published alongside the patchnotes in BalCon. Wake primary got a bugfix to avoid the last second veer off

[junior heron]

ooh, those are nice

[wet root]

Oooh, lots of nice things there

The Rail/MD counterbattery game is a lot more interesting now that it's not only Paralock that can do it

Also, Hangups actually functional! 🎉

[junior heron]

maybe I'll bring them in more than just my 12k fleets

also, very tempted to revisit jousting shuttles/CLs, now using wake torps after the drive-by their target

[wet root]

I'll have to test how well wake missiles function

But if they work well I'm definitely going to suggest a Joust Night

[olive blade]

I can see the usecase but I'd generally like my torps to be all aspect if I'm bothering

[wet root]

It looks like they might have only changed the validators looking for wakes from all aspects, with seekers still able to target from in front? Will need to test that

It will be very silly if WAKE[ACT] just entirely replaces ACT[WAKE]

[junior heron]

lol

pretty sure WAKE is alwas rear aspect

[quiet quiver]

Hah, if only sprinters could mount a reverse CLS

[wet root]

They can use TLS, which are... not quite as good, but should still work?

So wake seekers are better now, but definitely not entirely reliable

[olive blade]

hmmm

thats not so good

[wary flame]

damn I could get citadel mags on these monitors but they fit exactly 16 torps so I have no space for 100mm

and going below two salvoes feels wrong

[sharp crow]

rip off a launcher and just go for volleys of 6

[tulip vault]

lmfao what

excellent

[wary flame]

going to post this one since I think it's solid

[lime jungle]

Fleet 'MMTs and Landmines (No Intel)' is composed of 8 ships that cost 3000 points:

            Princess Diana Memorial : 'Cargo Feeder' class Monitor [Missile Gun]
              This Field Left Blank : 'Cargo Feeder' class Monitor [Missile Gun]
Aerated Concrete Replacement Budget : 'Tugboat' class Clipper [Sensor Missile Gun PD]
            Captain Tom Spa Lawsuit : 'Tugboat' class Clipper [Sensor Missile Gun PD]
                    Popperoni Pizza : 'Tugboat' class Clipper [Missile EWar Gun PD Sensor]
      Ceasefire March Route Planner : 'Shuttle' class Clipper [Rocket Gun PD]
             Cenotaph Donkey Jacket : 'Shuttle' class Clipper [Rocket Gun PD]
         Chairman Mao Style Bicycle : 'Shuttle' class Clipper [Rocket Gun PD]
```This fleet uses 3 different missile types:
```yaml
    SGM-101 Modern Monetary Theory : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR) - HE FRAG [2pts]
SGM-208 Offmarket Vape Canister II : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR)/[CMD] - HE SHAPED [10pts]
                SGT-358 Gom Jabbar : DIRECT - CMD/PSV(WAKE) - HE SHAPED [12pts]

[junior heron]

@wet root btw, does the Custom Player Count mod basically obsolete the Large Lobbies and Large Player Count mods?
am cleaning up my modlist so neb maybe loads faster
(it won't, i'm adding a couple more maps to it)

[tulip vault]

This testing branch has honestly really made me wish I could get into testing pubs

I mostly really like it

[junior heron]

yeah!

if only there were a group of people we could <@&942093958551588904> ping for games on the test branch

[tulip vault]

the container changes are downright bizarre, but otherwise

that is true

sadly I'm not availbe right now

[junior heron]

heck

[tulip vault]

it's baro time in 20 minutes

[junior heron]

I miss Barotrauma time ;_;

[tulip vault]

it's a very good game

[wicked mirage]

I'm available 😄

[junior heron]

unfortunately, unless you're willing to play 6k+ 1v1s, I don't think 2 people is enough for a game

oh btw @unreal hound Boat Night channels are still open

[unreal hound]

oh right

fixed

[oak shell]

I could play a boat

[wary flame]

I will neb if everyone is nebbing

[junior heron]

D: i missed the responses, sorry!
Peri + Misc would make 4 if Pyrope's still around

I think that's doable

[wicked mirage]

I'm already in a game D:

I only got time for one as well, I'm sorry!

[junior heron]

oh well

in fleetbuilding news: to afford more points, I have reduced the Grazer Device to an unfortunately more tenable number of Grazers (4) and filled the other slots with regular PD

[wet root]

I'll be free to bote in about an hour

[wet root]

It definitely obsoletes the latter, I don't know about the former (dedicated servers have a config option for lobby size, so Large Lobbies isn't relevant to them)

[junior heron]

ah

it seemed to work for regular hosting too

[olive blade]

my laptop doesn't really survive neb

so I'm off for a couple of weeks more

[junior heron]

contemplating the 1 point, wake-seekers as a real combat missile instead of as a Ceremonial Arming Missile

you can get the full warhead and a 6km range in 1 point

[wet root]

I've been thinking about putting a box of 20 on an ACAP shuttle

Going to need to test it a bit more though, given the results of testing wake with containers

[junior heron]

yeah. that's another problem

[wet root]

I kind of do hope that they become the standard capper armament at least for a bit, for the jousting

Will depend on how it compares against a 100mm and 3 points of ammo though

[junior heron]

also @wicked mirage @wary flame I think one of you made worked on a large blast AMM to thin out big missile dump waves - did you get it working on detonating in the middle of the pack instead of on the first thing it encounters?

[wary flame]

Pyrope made them, I tested them, yeah, they pretty much have that problem

[junior heron]

oh

even CMD doesn't work?

[wary flame]

CMD keeps them aimed at the target missile rather than the first one, so they stagger impact better

but they won't fly "through" missiles

if they enter detonation range of a missile they go bang

[junior heron]

hmm

also - wake seekers don't work for AMMs, right?

[wet root]

Correct, unless they changed it this patch

Which is kind of a shame, since AMMs have the highest intercept rate from behind now IIRC

So wake AMMs would potentially be quite useful

[wicked mirage]

The big blasts can still take out multiple missiles, it comes down to the blast radius.

AMM's will explode at a maximum of 50m away from a missile

So any leftover blast radius can be used to multikill missiles

[junior heron]

got it. Thanks Pyrope!

[bitter furnace]

Random question, where is #boat-night? I could see it and the voice channels yesterday but I no longer can

[wary flame]

the channels are closed up between boat nights

so as to declutter things

[bitter furnace]

ah makes sense

[wary flame]

since they're only relevant on saturdays

[bitter furnace]

I was confused for a sec

[junior heron]

we can occasionally invade the regular off-topic channels, though from what I've seen Neb is mostly on boat nights now.

just the most convenient time to coordinate across the whole globe.

[wary flame]

I've been playing too much darktide but when I'm done with that I will probably start weekday nebbing again

[junior heron]

you should also come back to Zero-K :P

[wet root]

I'll be more open to evening Neb once the patch hits main probably, I actually have consistent free time now

(I'd be open to it now but I don't really want to maintain main branch fleets for if we only have enough for pubbing)

[sharp crow]

I don't know if anyone who reads this thread doesn't own the game yet, but neb is 30% off https://store.steampowered.com/app/887570/NEBULOUS_Fleet_Command/

Steam

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also they're asking for nominations for the labor of love steam awards category which imo they've more than earned

[olive blade]

yea

[junior heron]

@wary flame did you post/would you mind posting the beehive container liner?
I'm yet again interested in how much more I'm spending on not missiles compared to your ships.

[wary flame]

@junior heron this is the current model although it's early days with the changes yet, I've considered going harder into rocket containers

[lime jungle]

Fleet 'Beehive' is composed of 1 ship which costs 3000 points:

SPACE WHALE : 'Container Liner' class Line Ship [Missile PD]
```This fleet uses 3 different missile types:
```yaml
        CM-406 Sacky Whacky : CRUISE - ARAD(RADAR)/ACT(RADAR)/[PSV(WAKE)] - HE SHAPED [6pts]
CM-S-404 Small Sack Of Bees : CRUISE - ARAD(RADAR)/ACT(RADAR) - NONE [27pts]
          SGM-102 Starshard : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR) - HE SHAPED [2pts]

[wary flame]

You just can't get any utility in these days

The beehive support containers have one decoy launcher in the third seeker/module slot and three in the warhead, since it turns out when you only use one of the two it doesn't deploy decoys fast enough.

which is a shame because I'd like to fit BSSJs in there too

[rigid bison]

Do Decoys go off before rocket containers fire?

[noble zodiac]

what about making an ARAD/ACT or ACT/[WAKE] variant of the Sacky Whacky that packs a BSSJ V:

[wary flame]

might work but is extremely softkillable and you already only have eight warheads per salvo

[noble zodiac]

hmm

do the warheads go in front or in behind the decoys? (i can see arguments for either but)

[wary flame]

decoys should launch from 3km arad seekers before rocket containers stage, but rocket containers cruise 20 m/s slower than regular containers, so you have to do serious damage to your regular container PD pen to get good mixed salvos without significant pre-planning

I usually just stick with one or the other unless I have bank slots for some rocket-specific support boxes

[wary flame]

four beehives per strike, two regular containers, then a beehive, repeat

[noble zodiac]

interesting

[wary flame]

ideally you want the decoys as spread out as possible while still forming a continuous swarm around the strike and staying in the arc of the defenders, to limit flak losses

and I want a couple of regular containers in front so that I lose 6pts to a minor error in sarissa weave rather than 1/4 of my decoys

all this work doesn't really get you good pd pen but it's at least as good as it used to be if you can avoid softkill

[noble zodiac]

right

[noble zodiac]

significant pre-planning
me who actively defaults to ToT strikes rather than single strikes

[wary flame]

this is harder than lining up two identical strikes, adjusting for a 20m/s speed deficit in the damage half of your strike and getting them coming from exactly the same angle so decoy support does anything is insanely hard

and the adjustment required varies with path and range to target, you can't just dogleg out of the launcher to line up

[noble zodiac]

fair

altho i have some experience with that kind of thing from another game V: so i'll probably end up trying it out at some point

[wary flame]

it's probably doable but I would much rather just have four VLS pools of 48/72 missiles rather than an arbitrary limit on missile types, so I could just make some support containers that could follow missile containers around and run those too

[neat galleon]

Oh yeah

Im in here

[wicked mirage]

See this dork?

This little nugget did 10k damage and cored out an Ocello by itself last game xD

Canned instastage to jumpscare and maul OSP capitals that wander around the wrong corner

Got a Bus Array, a Dragonfly drive, and a Parallax for locking to get the TLS aligned and blast 4 missiles down the throat of any CC or LN.

[wary flame]

I remain convinced that torpedo turrets make the Raines look way better

[wicked mirage]

They do!~

They look so cool lol

This thing can also potentially core out 3 big ships since it has 3 salvos.

[supple sonnet]

The final answer to the torpcello

[wary flame]

how much is it?

I like my torpedo monitors for the same job on OSP

[wicked mirage]

I have 2 versions, one with a hot-launch decoy Torp + cold launch S3H HEI combo to save points and a more expensive version crammed full of 50 point HEKP's.

I can grab the exact numbers here in a bit, I gotta run and do something first.

[wicked mirage]

Fleet 'ANS Test WIP' is composed of 2 ships that cost 1745 points:

Tweedle Dee : 'Raines' class Frigate [Gun]```This fleet uses 4 different missile types:```SGM-H-331 MAXIMA CRESCENT ROSE : DIRECT - CMD/ACT(RADAR) - HEKP [50pts]
SGM-H-331 ULTIMA CRESCENT ROSE : DIRECT - CMD/ARAD(RADAR) - HEKP [50pts]
     SGM-H-385 Spectrum Strobe : DIRECT - CMD/ARAD(RADAR) - HE SHAPED [19pts]
         SGT-312 Rainbow Prism : DIRECT - PSV(EO) - HE SHAPED [27pts]```

Here's the budget version and the expensive version side by side. The budget version does mixed salvos of torps and HEI S3H to have the torps tank and throw out decoys in order to let the S3H come in and hit, while the expensive version just throws the budget at the problem and drowns whatever it needs to kill in mixed salvos of two different dual-seeker Decoy HEKP S3H.

The Mount Gyro helps the TLS get on target as well, but it's not strictly necessary.

Both Frigates also have an R-DC locker and an R-Mag in the nose in order to let them bow tank a bit of 450 so that they can get their missiles out in time.

Trying to take 450 on the side is a coin flip because it either overpens and does barely anything or goes in and reds out your CIC near instantly.

So this is a bit more reliable.

Also by a "bit" of 450 I mean a bit lol, a full send from a 450 LN will just kill you no matter what if it hits xD

Here's the fleet I use this Frigate in btw ^^ I'm only using the budget version atm because the expensive version is, well, expensive lol.

Fleet 'Color Shards (Intel+Cap)' is composed of 6 ships that cost 3000 points:

   Rainbow Shard : 'Raines' class Frigate [Gun]
Shard of Scarlet : 'Raines' class Frigate [Gun PD]
 Shard of Orange : 'Sprinter' class Corvette [Missile Gun PD]
 Shard of Purple : 'Sprinter' class Corvette [Missile Gun PD]
  Shard of Azure : 'Sprinter' class Corvette [Gun PD]```This fleet uses 4 different missile types:```   SGM-109 Maiden's Spark : DIRECT - CMD - HE SHAPED [4pts]
SGM-267 Gemini Refraction : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR)/[CMD] - HE SHAPED [12pts]
SGM-H-385 Spectrum Strobe : DIRECT - CMD/ARAD(RADAR) - HE SHAPED [19pts]
    SGT-312 Rainbow Prism : DIRECT - PSV(EO) - HE SHAPED [27pts]```

The S2's on the capping Corvs in this fleet are Ex-ACT + CMD validated hot-launched corkscrew missiles with the ACT seeker on Reject so that it only goes for the track fired target. A plain CMD receiver won't cut it because the Sprinters can't get a good enough track for CMD missiles with terminals to reliably hit shuttles, and a Bullseye would be both expensive and also most likely replace the Mk62 which is useful for finishing off disabled clippers and whatnot.

They're fired 2 at a time since the Corvs have prog buses. Theoretically the 2 missile salvo can penetrate a Pavise on a Shuttle and kill it, but I need to test it more and see. They have enough boom to hurt Monitors too. Torps would hurt more but I feel like S2's are maybe better suited to hit small ships. I might try out torp versions of these corvs at some point tho.

The two ships Scarlet and Azure go together in a little formation in order to tag-team MMT's and take them down with 250's and 120's. Together they have enough PD to fend off the 4 missile salvos from MMT's and basic container strikes too. Scarlet also has a strong burnthrough with her ARR Parallax so that they can RPF any MMT's thru jamming as well.

I could put a Bullseye on Azure but I like having the second Mk62, it wouldn't be bad tho I might try it at some point.

[forest star]

Is boat night still on Saturday?

[oak shell]

I assume so

[forest star]

Cool, kinda want to jump into nebulous again, I'll probably be quite rusty, though :v

[wicked mirage]

All good! It'll be awesome to have more people!

[supple sonnet]

tomorows game will probaly on the public test branch, and if you need or want any modernized fleets some one should have on they want to share

[wicked mirage]

Though speaking of boat night I might not be able to play tomorrow x.x my Battletech game got moved to tomorrow and I have to see whether it can be moved earlier or not. More likely than not tho I won't be able to boat tomorrow D:

[wicked mirage]

Here, let me cook up an easy to use fleet for you! Do you want ANS, OSP, or both?

[forest star]

Is there anything specific you gotta do to access that or do you just switch to the beta via the properties on steam

[supple sonnet]

it just the switch to beta thing

[wicked mirage]

Yeah exactly that.

[forest star]

Also I can probably throw together a fleet easily enough, I tend to use OSP cargo feeders which are pretty simple :v

[wicked mirage]

Alrighty ^^ I do like building fleets tho! Want a Monitor based fleet to compare against your own ideas?

Up to you.

[forest star]

Wouldn't hurt to see :v

[wicked mirage]

Yaaaaaay

[supple sonnet]

yeah the spinal on MN's got reworked and they got a the 600mm casmate

[forest star]

yoooo

[wicked mirage]

The C60 got barrel enlargement surgery and now shoots fireworks and hammerhead shells that hit like missile HEI warheads xD

[forest star]

I tend to use plasma, but 600mms sound awesome

[supple sonnet]

Plasma is... not in a good place. inpart becouse every bug fix for it but one has been a nerf

[forest star]

I do play ANS too, though, usually with light cruisers

nooooo

[glad aurora]

Vauxhall sibling 😌

[supple sonnet]

though Plas/250 dose still work realy well

[wicked mirage]

Plasma is actually in a pretty good place now IMO, the bugfix bumped up the shred to the moon and then the radius was nerfed to 7.5m from 11.5m to bring it back down to earth.

Main branch Plasma is only doing like half the shred it should be.

[supple sonnet]

Ahh fair, we had not tried themost recent version yet.

[sharp crow]

monitors are pretty fun now yeah

I think vauxhalls are in pretty good shape too now

[toxic scaffold]

Moniters get all the new OSP toys

[lime jungle]

'The Brick' is a 'Cargo Feeder' class Monitor that costs 660 points.

[sharp crow]

so if both of those are your fancy then you're good

[sharp crow]

neat, are you in a battletech rpg or is it just mashing robots together?

[forest star]

oh shit, citadel magazines?

[tulip vault]

testing branch has done some things ™️

[forest star]

That's awesome, always so sad when my monitors had their ammo storage popped :v

[tulip vault]

the testing branch also has 3 different armour level of monitors still iirc, I think we've been playing with the highest?

[supple sonnet]

Nah it's just the 48cm one that is left on test

[tulip vault]

oh does it?

good

big fan

I like the 48cm

should've given it 60 but whatever (this is very much a joke)

[junior heron]

nonono, it should have been given 60% damage reduction

[tulip vault]

so true

[supple sonnet]

In our coletive opnion MN armour vs 120mm is not a thing thatrealy matters outside of whiteroom stuff and signaling to newbies not to do it

[tulip vault]

should've just removed all the hardpoints and given it 100% damage reduction

[forest star]

yoo, 600mm HESH shells

and time delayed bombs, that rocks

[tulip vault]

the bombs are super cool

you can fire them so innacurately its great

also OSP has burnthrough now

on the uh

one of the radars

[supple sonnet]

on the Huntress

[wicked mirage]

@forest star Alrighty Here you go!~

[lime jungle]

Fleet 'Goblin Mode (BrawlMN+Intel)' is composed of 6 ships that cost 3000 points:

       Hobgoblin : 'Cargo Feeder' class Monitor [Plasma PD]
        Bakemono : 'Cargo Feeder' class Monitor [PD Gun Sensor]
         Bugbear : 'Cargo Feeder' class Monitor [Gun PD]
          Norker : 'Cargo Feeder' class Monitor [Gun PD]
  Level 1 Goblin : 'Shuttle' class Clipper [Gun PD]
Only worth 2 EXP : 'Shuttle' class Clipper [Gun PD]

[wicked mirage]

Hazel Bot doesn't load up Test Server monitors correctly at the moment, so you'll need to load this fleet file into your game and take a look at it in the fleet editor to see everything! ^^

[forest star]

Also looks like all the 100mm ammo has consistent ranges now, which is cool

[wicked mirage]

Grape is 8km, all other 100mm is 7.2km

[forest star]

That's more consistent than it was, I recall one of them had 5k range or something silly a while back

[wicked mirage]

Ah yeah lol. Alright so all of the fighting Monitors here have C90's and you have Plasma/100's to supplement them Each brawling Monitor here also has 6 buffed DC teams and 4 Restores along with a Citadel Mag for even more tankiness.

[forest star]

rad, always like having robust repairs on a monitor

[wicked mirage]

The Radar Monitor has an EWR and Bloodhound and can use both at the same time. It doesn't quite have enough power to use both Radars and fire the Grazers at the same time tho, so when the Grazers turn on the Adaptive Radar Receiver and Track Correlators will temporarily turn off, but they'll turn back on automatically once the Grazers are done protecting the ship.

It also has an Intel Center

[forest star]

intel centre? surely one of my teammates will bring that

[wicked mirage]

xD

[forest star]

jk, I'm not a MONSTER

[wicked mirage]

You can swap the Intel Center for a DCX and cram some more ammo into the fleet if someone else on your team has Intel, but it can also good to have a bit of redundancy just in case.

That way if your friend's ship blows up you still have Intel on the team xD

[forest star]

Yeah I always try and have an intel centre in my fleets, just in case

[wicked mirage]

Good gal, that's a good habit to have.

[wet root]

Depending on when you last played, you should probably be aware that torpedoes are now very short range (usually 3kish, though sometimes longer) but terrifyingly potent

[supple sonnet]

Yeah 4-5km torps exiest, but they are not as dangerious as the short (~3km) range supper spinny ones that dodge all PD

[wet root]

I need to tweak my tugs' torps to make them more reliably break past defenders

[toxic scaffold]

It takes a lot of G's

[wet root]

They're currently at 5k but are fairly unreliable at pd pen

[supple sonnet]

howmeany warhead ticks do you have on them?

[wet root]

2880 damage IIRC

So I think 3?

[supple sonnet]

Like with the 5.8 km listed range version of crysknives struggle agenst massed defender fire, and that's with a 2 tick warhead.

[lime jungle]

SGT-358 Crysknife is a size 3 missile that costs 11 points.

[supple sonnet]

Damm hazle dose not give the g rating

[tulip vault]

I know when I ran with the nutorps I did super short range ones but with tugs being slow now I dunno how viable that is as OSP

[wet root]

I can tell they're a lot higher g just because that's a lot pricier lol

I mean, slow is a strong word, they still flank at 39

[supple sonnet]

And that's the lower G longer range version of them

[wary flame]

I have been trained out of this habit by playing with you and your intel centres all the time, you're a bad influence

[tulip vault]

that's true but it still makes it noticeably harder to hit 2k torps

[wet root]

But also I use them almost entirely for ambushing, since my tugs play solo

The speed loss is a lot more important if you're moving around in a jamming-covered blob I'd expect

[quiet quiver]

Also reaching 175 m/s in 0.9 s

That's gonna be like 20G

[wicked mirage]

I'm just helpful! xD

I feel naked without an Intel Center in my fleet xD I'm so used to having one that not having one on my team makes me feel scared and blind lol. Like "I see unknown tracks everywhere and I don't know what's what ahhhhhh!"

I think the only fleets I have that don't have an Intel Center are my missile fleets and a select few of my 3k BB's.

Oh, my double Ocello fleet doesn't have Intel but one of them has a Citadel so it helps a bit.

[wet root]

Ocellos already have so many issues with crew capacity, not surprised there

Wonder if that will be an issue for them come conquest

[wicked mirage]

Yeah, that and also it's hard to have everything you want in 1500 points in order to have 2 of them.

[wicked mirage]

I think they'll be fine, Monitors make incredible Intel ships and can also carry powerful radar suites like ANS Destroyers can.

Especially with the buffs Monitors are getting.

[supple sonnet]

Nike has a way she makes it work with a single drive a railcello. but that is anich desigen

[wet root]

Oh, I meant Ocellos always being on the edge for crew cap, and if that will cause issues for long cruises

Not being able to replenish losses

[wicked mirage]

Oooh yeah, maybe. We'll have to see what the eventual crew update brings.

Having to bring 2 Berthings on an Ocello will really make it hard to have a CC that's any kind of cheap.

[wet root]

Though Monitors might be the answer there as well lol

Since you can get a big berthing Monitor trailing behind your Ocellos and have infinite crew

[wicked mirage]

Yeah 200 dudes just sitting there in the Monitor waiting for a job will proly be useful xD

Just move them to other ships and stuff as needed lol

[wet root]

I do like that Cargo Feeders and Bulk Liners will presumably be used for their civilian purposes as well

Good design, that

[wicked mirage]

For sure ^^

Yeah idk how that will work.

I dunno what's public and what's not about Conquest so I can't really comment on it at all rn.

I know things I can't say xD

[wet root]

Oh right you're testing it now

[supple sonnet]

going off the last dev log you can take ammo from one ship and load it into another, or onto the station relativaly quickly. so i think the hope is that you coud bring extra ammoin like a Con-L's bulk mag

[tulip vault]

If you can't fill the conl's containers with actual supplies I will be very sad

[quiet quiver]

Would be kinda cute if unconverted freighters existed too with the same model but trading the hardpoints for more internal space

[wet root]

Bulkers and Ocellos will have even more reason to follow each other once Ocellos need to resupply from them to be able to take more than a single engagement

[forest star]

We've innovated upon the cargo box torp: behold, the non-torp cargo box, capable of being rapidly attached and detached from freighters, and able to be filled with any material you can imagine!

[wet root]

You can put anything you want in this converted missile! Even missiles!

[wicked mirage]

I wish to put explosives in it

[forest star]

You can do that!

You can't fire them at people though, that's a legacy feature which will not carry across to the new improved non-torp container

[wicked mirage]

Ah dang I see I see. Then I will have no choice but to fly my entire ship at the enemy and detonate all of them at once!!~

[wet root]

The real question is how many of these can you fit in one

(Fun fact, containers are magical, they take up less space in a magazine than they actually occupy)

(Perhaps they're like folding chairs)

[supple sonnet]

Flat pack munitions

Lark (They/Them) ↩️

[Reply to:](#1164000873031151637 message) (Perhaps they're like folding chairs)

[bitter furnace]

you can talk about whatever's been said in the devlogs or explained in the Concept Document. But yeah if you don't know both of those well then maybe best to say nothing

We don't know specifically what models are going to be used for the civilian traffic, but it would be wasteful not to reuse the bulk freighter and container liner models

the cargo feeder is more iffy, it has all the obvious armour plates all over it, so it would need to be remodelled if you wanted a civilian variant

[wet root]

Clearly it's armored because there's a bit of kessler syndrome going on in the common docking orbits due to space junk

And around mining facilities

Actually, isn't the mass driver a mining tool? That might not be entirely unreasonable

[bitter furnace]

Yeah it was

The armour plates are specifically mentioned as part of OSP militarization though

[tulip vault]

it does suprise me a bit that we didn't see a retrofitted mining ship

it just feels like such a genre staple

[wicked mirage]

Alrighty ^^ yeah thanks NSLW ❤️

Also yeah that's right, you're here, lol. Hi xD

[bitter furnace]

Hello! I am indeed here to ramble about how excited I am for Conquest 😛

[wicked mirage]

Same!

I'm probably gonna go hard into it once it drops.

I want to do the first major recorded campaign of it with a bunch of people.

And make it an episodic saga on Youtube

[tulip vault]

conquest seems very interesting indeed

[bitter furnace]

For me it’s just the existence of singleplayer content in Neb is like

HUGE

I’ve never been a fan of multiplayer

But I love neb so I tolerate it

[wicked mirage]

Fair enough ^^

lol

[bitter furnace]

Soon I can retreat into singleplayer

[wicked mirage]

I like MP, but single player can be fun too.

[bitter furnace]

And if the AI opponent is insufficient I can mod it until it is

[tulip vault]

that makes sense

[wicked mirage]

Halo mod Conquest mode is going to be so fucking fire.

xD

I'm very excited.

It's the UNSC v Covenant space battles game I've always wanted ❤️

[wet root]

Okay, 3/4 hits on the flank of a BB, probably worth the 1 extra point of maneuver

[lime jungle]

SGT-338 Undersense Break is a size 3 missile that costs 9 points.

[wicked mirage]

Looks awesome! Btw tho, a guy I know named Puppy who also made the Skirmish Report tool also made a tool for fine tuning Missile engines. You can use this to get the exact speed/range/maneuverability values you want without having to mess with the Triangle™️
https://rocketpuppy.github.io/Nebulous-Fleet-Command-Minmax-Tool/missile-engine-tuner.html

I recently discovered this and it changed my life xD

It was just updated for new torps today as well.

[wet root]

Puppy is a hero

[junior heron]

attempting the wild new idea of "defend against the one thing that consistently kills me" with the Autumn

Bulwark is size 2 solely because the Activer Decoy is cheaper than the regular Active Decoy

Crenellation is hopefully anti-container only

[tulip vault]

what does

what does the activer decoy do

[junior heron]

emits a jamming signature

this is the first time in a while the Autumn has AMMs or Chaff

[wet root]

Ooh, interesting

You might want to consider going for double chaff boxes if you're trying to defend against SAH

[junior heron]

i'm defending against a lot of things

[wet root]

Fair

[junior heron]

I know EO is no more, but my most common demise is still any sort of missile dump

[wet root]

It's just a lot easier to do an illuminator offset against one chaff box than two

(Assuming they're bracketing the ship)

[tulip vault]

wait

the autumn hasn't had chaff??

[junior heron]

not unless you include the bonus corvette

[tulip vault]

ohhh

[sharp crow]

does the autumn have an orb

[tulip vault]

okay now I understand why it's been so easy to gale dump

[junior heron]

I think around the discovery of "raider is good" I went "well its signature is bigger than chaff"

[tulip vault]

tom you violated the second shipbuilding commandment

[junior heron]

always has

[sharp crow]

huh

[junior heron]

the chaff never saved me D:

[tulip vault]

the first being cermonially arm your missiles

[sharp crow]

then how did I cmd missile dump you last time

[tulip vault]

I suppose if it has a larger radar sig??

I dunno

I still think I'd run it just in case it works

[junior heron]

close enough to cut through? i dunno

or the interruptor got hit

or it didn't have power

[sharp crow]

I was at like 8km

[supple sonnet]

The disco and hotwater heater now need to be manualy triggerd from our experince

[junior heron]

hmm

[tulip vault]

I know I've hit people before they turned on the interuptor

[sharp crow]

yeah must've gotten hit or something

[tulip vault]

I think they only auto turn on if the ship realises the missiles are going for it and also if they've been ID'd

[junior heron]

there is also the problem of "if we're reloading everything we can't turn on the disco ball"

[tulip vault]

tom

maybe you could cut the auroras

I'm just saying

[junior heron]

that's the whole point of the new test D:

[tulip vault]

welp :p

That's so much power

I'm 90% some of my entire 3k fleets draw less power than that

[junior heron]

next you'll tell me I shouldn't put the defender on the class 4

[tulip vault]

actually no I'm okay with that

I think that's fine

[junior heron]

anyway I'm excited for boat night

and would be up for boat games today as well

(though not right now, right now I need lunch)

[wet root]

I need to come up with some more missile names for boat night

[tulip vault]

I'm excited for boat games tomorrow, though I don't know how many I can attend

and sadly it is board game night for me shortly

[wet root]

Might be available for boats later as well

[tulip vault]

(which has incidentally rendered me very confused as to what you call lunch tom, isn't your timezone ahead of mine?)

[wet root]

It's still lunch until 17:00 hits!

[tulip vault]

that's

no

what?

Is it???

[wet root]

It is if I want to say I usually have lunch

[tulip vault]

well

fair enough lol

if I'm going out to lunch with people and they tell me to meet them at like, 16:00 I'm going to have some questions though

[junior heron]

I'm an hour behind you. also on a bad sleep schedule, so breakfast was had at around 1230

[tulip vault]

ah well that's fair

I don't understand timezones

this is my big hangup for some reason

[supple sonnet]

If you work in food servace launch actualy being betwen 15:00 and 17:00 is preaty common

[tulip vault]

my perception of time is so messed up I guess

[junior heron]

i also just define lunch as "second meal of my day" so it can be whenever

[tulip vault]

my family always used to have like, dinner or whatever the last meal of the days is at like, 17:00-18:00

so, yknow

time is weird

words are weird

[wet root]

Okay no I think you're the normal one here w/r/t food time expectations

We're just all late eaters

[tulip vault]

I've done it

I've achieved normalcy

[supple sonnet]

Yeah your then one normal one here.

[bitter furnace]

buffing modules will turn off before your Interruption does

things turn off from the bottom of that list to the top

[wicked mirage]

@junior heron Hey Tom, do you wanna send me the Autumn's file? I wanna take a look at this cool new AMM-equipped version

Btw do you mind if I make my own messed up version of it and show you it for fun? xD

[junior heron]

sure

[junior heron]

I'm pretty sure it's this version but there's literally like 3 different "beam bb" files in my test fleets folder
basic idea is still that I need to stick with an escrot fleet, but this hopefully saves me from at least one volley in time for me to retreat to a more defensible position

[lime jungle]

Fleet 'Autumn with Auroras' is composed of 2 ships that cost 3000 points:

  Autumn of the Storm : 'Solomon' class Battleship [Beam PD Missile EWar Sensor]
The Long Distant Road : 'Sprinter' class Corvette [PD Sensor EWar]
```This fleet uses 5 different missile types:
```yaml
SGM-100 Ceremonial Arming Missile : DIRECT - PSV(WAKE) - HE SHAPED [1pts]
                  SGM-102 Warpath : DIRECT - PSV(WAKE) - HE SHAPED [1pts]
             SGM-104 Crenellation : DIRECT - CMD - HE FRAG [4pts]
                  SGM-204 Bulwark : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR) - HE FRAG [4pts]
            SGM-299 Activer Decoy : DIRECT - SAH(RADAR) - NONE [7pts]

[junior heron]

oh hey, it sure is the right one

[wicked mirage]

Alrighty! I'll make my own Pyrope-ified version and post it here ^^ then you can take a look at it for ideas or even run it if you want up to you~

[junior heron]

sounds good, thanks!

[wicked mirage]

'Ere we go!~

[lime jungle]

Fleet 'Autumn (Pyrope Infected)' is composed of 2 ships that cost 3000 points:

  Autumn of the Storm : 'Solomon' class Battleship [Beam Missile PD Sensor EWar]
The Long Distant Road : 'Sprinter' class Corvette [PD Sensor EWar]
```This fleet uses 4 different missile types:
```yaml
SGM-100 Ceremonial Arming Missile : DIRECT - PSV(WAKE) - HE SHAPED [1pts]
                  SGM-102 Warpath : DIRECT - PSV(WAKE) - HE SHAPED [1pts]
       SGM-212 Charged Rose Petal : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR)/HOJ(RADAR) - HE FRAG [5pts]
            SGM-299 Activer Decoy : DIRECT - SAH(RADAR) - NONE [7pts]

[wicked mirage]

So basically, you have 4 Drives now xD

[junior heron]

my power ;_;

[wicked mirage]

You get all the PCC's instead lol

It's a computer that says your ship should try harder to generate more power!

The Autumn now has 360 degree ELINT coverage to go along with the LDR's ELINT coverage to create crossfixes, meanwhile you have enough power to run 2/3 Beams and everything else while all 3 PCC's intact, if a PCC or Micro Reactor breaks though you might have to get creative xD

Here I might be able to fix the power one sec

[junior heron]

"have to get creative"
ah, turn off the radar

already part of the plan :P

[wicked mirage]

Fair xD

Wait! Check this out

[lime jungle]

Fleet 'Autumn (Pyrope Infected)' is composed of 2 ships that cost 3000 points:

  Autumn of the Storm : 'Solomon' class Battleship [Beam Missile PD Sensor EWar]
The Long Distant Road : 'Sprinter' class Corvette [PD Sensor EWar]
```This fleet uses 4 different missile types:
```yaml
SGM-100 Ceremonial Arming Missile : DIRECT - PSV(WAKE) - HE SHAPED [1pts]
                  SGM-102 Warpath : DIRECT - PSV(WAKE) - HE SHAPED [1pts]
       SGM-212 Charged Rose Petal : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR)/HOJ(RADAR) - HE FRAG [5pts]
            SGM-299 Activer Decoy : DIRECT - SAH(RADAR) - NONE [7pts]

[wicked mirage]

The Autumn only has 3 Drives now BUT that's one more drive than it had before AND you can afford to lose a PCC or a Micro Reactor and still be totally fine on power!

You can even run all 3 Beams AND your Radar AND everything else if you lose a PCC!

If you lose a Micro Reactor you'll only need to turn off the Interruption Jammer in order to keep all your buff modules and PD firing sans maybe a Mount Gyro.

This version of the Autumn now sports slightly better speed and turn rate than the original model, has a Raider for that blessed linear thrust, and has a bunch of anti-container AMM's!~

Along with all the softkill toys!

The LDR can also Bullseye lock things while Jamming them so it can act as a very sticky scout that can keep a target locked for your team while also making crossfixes between itself and the Autumn!

This version loses about 4 m/s off its top speed versus the 4 drive version, but I'd say the tradeoffs are well worth it.

I think this version will work a lot better for ya than the 4 Drive version xD

[wet root]

Pocket Pinards!

I do adore that idea

even if I'll probably never use it because BB

[olive blade]

pcc = download more electricity

[wicked mirage]

Exactly xD

[tulip vault]

does that mean that a strike planning centre is downloading more ram

[unreal hound]

<@&942093958551588904> boats boats boats boats boats boats boats boats boats boats boats boats

[ionic bluff]

deepest boat time

[sharp crow]

🚤

I'll be around in a couple minutes

[supple sonnet]

⛵

[rigid bison]

Gonna be missing this boatulous

[wicked mirage]

I wish I could be there!

If anyone wants some fun fleets of mine to play around with just lmk ^^

[supple sonnet]

Oh Yes please, our fleets are geting a bit stale

[wicked mirage]

Alrighty!~ What kind of fleets do you want? I have a lot!

Just name an archetype or a specific fleet/ship and I'll grab it for you ^^

[supple sonnet]

Oh some missle fleets would be nice

[wicked mirage]

Yes ma'am! One sec

[junior heron]

hopping on shortly - i've felt pretty sick toay but I think I can manage some boatgames

[misty storm]

Would you mind posting the file for this? Been looking for something that makes torpedo turrets work

[lime jungle]

Fleet 'Color Shards (Intel+Cap)' is composed of 6 ships that cost 3000 points:

   Emerald Shard : 'Keystone' class Destroyer [Beam Gun PD Sensor]
   Rainbow Shard : 'Raines' class Frigate [Gun]
Shard of Scarlet : 'Raines' class Frigate [Gun PD]
 Shard of Orange : 'Sprinter' class Corvette [Missile Gun PD]
 Shard of Violet : 'Sprinter' class Corvette [Missile Gun PD]
  Shard of Azure : 'Sprinter' class Corvette [Gun PD]
```This fleet uses 4 different missile types:
```yaml
   SGM-109 Maiden's Spark : DIRECT - CMD - HE SHAPED [4pts]
SGM-267 Gemini Refraction : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR)/[CMD] - HE SHAPED [12pts]
SGM-H-385 Spectrum Strobe : DIRECT - CMD/ARAD(RADAR) - HE SHAPED [19pts]
    SGT-312 Rainbow Prism : DIRECT - PSV(EO) - HE SHAPED [27pts]

[misty storm]

Thanks

[wicked mirage]

Rainbow Shard is the frigate in question ^^

[wicked mirage]

It's designed to fire the Torps and S3H's in equal amounts in a mixed salvo btw, don't forget

@toxic scaffold

[lime jungle]

Fleet 'Gem Rails (Rail+S2+Intel)' is composed of 4 ships that cost 3000 points:

  Garnet Star : 'Keystone' class Destroyer [Missile Rail PD]
Emerald Comet : 'Keystone' class Destroyer [Missile Rail PD]
  Rose Quartz : 'Sprinter' class Corvette [Gun PD]
    Malachite : 'Sprinter' class Corvette [Gun PD]
```This fleet uses 2 different missile types:
```yaml
SGM-212 Emerald Thorn : CRUISE - ARAD(RADAR)/ACT(RADAR) - HE SHAPED [8pts]
 SGM-213 Garnet Thorn : CRUISE - ACT(RADAR)/[PSV(WAKE)] - HE SHAPED [8pts]

[misty storm]

I do wonder how far one can take the torpedo turrets

[wicked mirage]

Ilkay, This is a fleet with a pair of unbuffed Rails and a pair of capping corvs, but the main draw is the 160 S2 missiles fired in mixed salvos of 20 at a time.

It also has Intel ^^

@toxic scaffold

[lime jungle]

Fleet 'Pyro Yub' is composed of 5 ships that cost 3000 points:

  Pyrophilia : 'Raines' class Frigate [Missile]
   Pyrophora : 'Raines' class Frigate [Missile]
  Pyrophobia : 'Raines' class Frigate [Missile]
Hidden Flame : 'Raines' class Frigate [Sensor Missile]
  Tiny Ember : 'Sprinter' class Corvette [Gun PD]
```This fleet uses 4 different missile types:
```yaml
           SGM-H-323 Iron Thorn : CRUISE - ARAD(RADAR)/ACT(RADAR) - HE SHAPED [20pts]
       SGM-H-325 Platinum Thorn : CRUISE - ACT(RADAR)/[PSV(WAKE)] - HE SHAPED [19pts]
     SGM-H-325 Truesilver Thorn : CRUISE - ACT(RADAR)/[PSV(EO)] - HE SHAPED [23pts]
SGM-H-390 Resonating Ruby Shard : CRUISE - ARAD(RADAR)/ACT(RADAR) - HE SHAPED [33pts]

[supple sonnet]

Oh thease do look vary nice

[wicked mirage]

This is my standard Yub fleet Ilkay, basically you fire mixed salvos of 3 different missiles types where the Resonating Ruby Shards have BSSJ. The ACT/[EO] is to hit radarless ships that like to sit still like Mass Drivers and the like. And then the ARAD/ACT and ACT/[Wake] is pretty self explanatory.

It also has a scouting Frigate with ELINT that can hunt enemy scouts with some S3H.

The fleet also has a capping Corv to help out with caps as well ^^

@toxic scaffold With the loss of EO for OSP on the public test branch, I don't actually have any functional OSP missile fleets at the moment, I apologize.

[supple sonnet]

That's the one thing we have TBH

[wicked mirage]

heh

OH!

I do have Berry Force, which has a Missile MN in it!~

[neat galleon]

is boat night over or did i remember in time

[wicked mirage]

@toxic scaffold

[lime jungle]

Fleet 'Berry Force Nine (Cap+Intel)' is composed of 10 ships that cost 3000 points:

Berry HQ (CEO's Mom's Trailer) : 'Cargo Feeder' class Monitor [Missile PD]
                    Blackberry : 'Shuttle' class Clipper [Gun PD]
                     Raspberry : 'Shuttle' class Clipper [Gun PD]
                     Blueberry : 'Shuttle' class Clipper [Gun PD]
                      Mulberry : 'Shuttle' class Clipper [Gun PD]
                    Strawberry : 'Shuttle' class Clipper [Gun PD]
                     Cranberry : 'Shuttle' class Clipper [Gun PD]
                   Huckleberry : 'Shuttle' class Clipper [Gun PD]
                    Gooseberry : 'Shuttle' class Clipper [Gun PD]
                    Elderberry : 'Shuttle' class Clipper [Gun PD]
```This fleet uses 3 different missile types:
```yaml
          SGM-102 Starshard : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR) - HE SHAPED [2pts]
SGM-236 WE ARE BERRY STRONG : DIRECT - ACT(RADAR)/[PSV(WAKE)] - HE SHAPED [6pts]
    SGM-237 BERRY BOOM BOOM : DIRECT - ARAD(RADAR)/ACT(RADAR) - HE SHAPED [6pts]

[wicked mirage]

@neat galleon You're in time ^^

[neat galleon]

yippee!!

[wicked mirage]

Btw Ilkay, the MN is currently designed for Main Branch, it'll work on Test Branch just fine though you'll just have 2 empty module slots in it, feel free to fiddle with the design if you want though

[neat galleon]

is it on test branch or main? i kinda wanna try my hand at playing a game for once but i don't have a fleet

[supple sonnet]

Thank you again Pyrope

Pyrope 🩸 ↩️

[Reply to:](#1164000873031151637 message) @toxic scaffold 📎

[unreal hound]

is boat night done?

[supple sonnet]

yeah it was a short one

[wary flame]

tinkered with the beehive a bit

it now has six full salvoes of beehive decoy swarms, four full salvoes of rocket containers, 24 1pt scout containers, some clipper decoys and 14 spare basic containers for finishers and slapping things with no defenders

and 4 restores

which seems reasonably well-rounded

[wary flame]

posting this to remind me to try HOJ/Wake/Act cheap containers with triple seekers

[wet root]

You might want to do Act before Wake, since the latter still sometimes does a funny

See: #1164000873031151637 message

The ones I've been trying on my OSP Nonsense is EACT[WAKE]/WAKE, it's pretty fantastic for killing anything that doesn't have a Defender

Don't really need HoJ when the Wake secondary gets it close enough to acquire anyway

[olive walrus]

also: mugshot

[lime jungle]

'Testulous Double Drive Liner' is a 'Bulk Freighter' class Line Ship that costs 815 points.

[sharp crow]

you know, long haul and yard drive make for a pretty good combo

[tulip vault]

the true liner experience

[sharp crow]

pd is fake

[tulip vault]

that does seem cool though, I still haven't tried the new long haul

[sharp crow]

just volume tank

[tulip vault]

so true

this will have no negative consequences

(it will not)

When I don't bring PD, 6 missiles hit me and my CIC goes down

when I bring PD, 1 missile hits me and my CIC goes down

[tulip vault]

oh that is very cool

[sharp crow]

these are the bonuses you end up with

which are honestly very solid

at the price of one civilian reactor

[tulip vault]

that is pretty rad

I'm shocked you can run the radar on that ship though

[supple sonnet]

I think i would put in a DCX and swap a Aux for a rapid DC locker, just beouse your already past the brake point of 750.

LT Hazel ↩️

[Reply to:](#1164000873031151637 message) 'Testulous Double Drive Liner' is a 'Bulk Freighter' class Line Ship that costs 815 points. 📎

[sharp crow]

it's 104% power draw thanks to the pinpoint

but like if you can lock something you can just turn the radar off

[tulip vault]

true

[sharp crow]

I think I'd prefer to run like three of these and then a bloodhound tug or something for the remaining points

but I just whipped this thing up in like 10 minutes to see what the engine combo was like

[supple sonnet]

Fair a BH-tug is Pinpoint shuttle

Is going to run more then a Pinpoint shuttle*

[sharp crow]

I think if the reactor gets shot up you can still fire all the guns off the engine power as long as you turn everything else off

which is funny

and is good to have since if it's not my cic getting hit, it's the reactor

[wet root]

Are you using a reinforced mag over citadel for the smaller side profile?

(Or did you just forget the latter exist, like I keep doing?)

Also I might have to steal that design (and glue some cheap containers and a chaff box on)

What are peoples' opinions on citadel mag vs small reinforced mag on Monitors, btw?

For ones where the small mag has enough space, like MD monitors

Is the HP of the citadel worth the big hitbox?

[sharp crow]

I forgot it existed but I don't think I'd use it anyway, I like to box in the CIC

I guess I could shuffle stuff around

[wet root]

Clearly the best option is to have a stack of Citadel Mag/RCIC/RDC on one end and DCX/RCIC/RDC on the other

...I had meant that as a joke but actually that would probably be terrifyingly tanky

Even without the RDCs it might well be quite solid

[sharp crow]

that would be kind of funny

the ultimate roof liner

[wet root]

Delicious CIC sandwich

[sharp crow]

maybe a bit undergunned for the amount of tank you're putting in

but maybe you can put gun turrets or rockets on the broadside mounts

[arctic magnet]

C54?

[junior heron]

Added C54 Cannon
Reduced C53 Cannon autoloader capactiy to 8 (was 15), HP to 300 (was 350), and cost to 10 (was 15).
Re-added Jury-Rigged Reactor compartment with 500 power and 30% overload chance.
Increased CM-4 and CM-S-4 Engine speed upper bound to 275 m/s (was 225).
Re-added CM-4R12 and increased cost to 35 (was 25).
Locked HEKP warhead to Alliance faction.
Resotred EWR ability to collect intel.
Increased Bulker LN angular thrust to 750 (was 600).

[noble zodiac]

its basically the mainbranch C53 but for bulkers specifically

[sharp crow]

hefty 250 bulker nerf

[olive blade]

yeah brutal

and tug nerf

[noble zodiac]

tbf, the way its structured is specifically targeted at the tug without affecting the bulker as much

(and, relative to testulous before this patch, its a buff (as the C53 had just 20DT whereas the C54 has the full 40 from main branch again))

[sharp crow]

I can see the tug being affected more but I'm not sure I agree with bulkers not noticing that the autoloader capacity got cut in half

will have to go see it in action

[mint sinew]

Assuming the C54 is the main branch stats but full casemate sized I think this is the way to go for balance. Desyncs the 5th barrel of 250mm liners and hurts roof mounted liners badly.

[noble zodiac]

ah you see

[olive blade]

it hits the roofgun bulkers bad

[noble zodiac]

the C54 doesnt change the autoloader from current

yeah it does hit roof bulkers tho

[junior heron]

yeah, I think that's where most of the concern is coming from in this case

[sharp crow]

oh I see

[olive blade]

which frankly is most of the 250 bulkers I have been doing

and is sad

[noble zodiac]

yea C54 is the full 16

[mint sinew]

given Mazer's attitude towards rerolling bulker configurations I assume roof bulkers are semi-intended collateral damage

[olive blade]

unfortunate

I think gale bulkers were already a bit awkward

and I'm not really sure what issues roof guns caused

[mint sinew]

It's more that Mazer doesn't like the idea of people picking the "best" layout for their liners and roofgun bulkers are an artifact of a very specific configuration.

[olive blade]

thats fair

but I think unavoidable

[mint sinew]

Agreed

[sharp crow]

roof gun builds were fun though

[olive blade]

reminds me of certain dominions devs hoping choices will be taken for flavour reasons

despite being suboptimal

[sharp crow]

really feels like this osp patch is one step forward two steps back in terms of build choice

[olive blade]

it just doesn't work that way

yeah

[sly glade]

yeahh

turns out multiplayer games get less fun if you do things suboptimally

[mint sinew]

I think it is also been a big highlight of just how few individual items were holding up the OSP balance. In the name of increasing build diversity removing those support pillars has knocked out a lot of builds off the back of them

[olive blade]

yeah

and how much viable missile options matters for dealing with big ships

[noble zodiac]

missiles

stares at the container speed buff

[olive blade]

losing eo is rough there

I'm not sure they are better overall

but will have to see

[mint sinew]

Less time under PD fire is less time your decoy shield has to hold under PD fire. If that speed does matter it does currently kill the ability to mix rocket containers into a salvo as they will be left behind

[sharp crow]

well and active decoys basically softkill everything except for cmd

[noble zodiac]

the speed increase also means an increase in range

because that essentially gets applied as a flat scaling to your position on the trongle, and range isn't actually the value set in the trongle - the trongle gives you burn time

[sharp crow]

I don't think containers were suffering from range issues before

[noble zodiac]

im more saying its like
its more than just the speed, there's positive knockon effects basically across the board

that speed also does help a surprising amount vs defenders depending on the geometry

like, more than just time-to-target

(see: S2s sometimes Simply Not Caring)

[mint sinew]

Yeah, the speed increase is basically free "triangle points" if you want a currently legal speed

[noble zodiac]

put the triangle points into maneuverability
corkscrew hours

[bitter furnace]

C54 is just the main branch C53 but it only fits in MN and LN casemate sockets

I agree that C53 going down to 8 autoloader is a hefty nerf that nobody really asked for, but eh it's here we'll test it and adjust

[bitter furnace]

true, they were however falling flat during the final stretch

in the last 500m where BSSJs lose effectiveness and decoys leave PD envelope, a single Defender could cut up infinite containers

the best way to lessen that is to increase speed in that final stretch

so here we are, we'll see how it plays

also

BACKPACKS ARE BACK

I'm so happy

the Alliance Navy will feel the fear of hybrids

direct order from Protectorate Command

every single LN we have is to be refitted with R12 backpacks on the double

[wet root]

Oh, wow, that's a significant speed buff for containers

I rather hope that only one of the Tug speed nerf/the C53 nerf make it into the patch, the combination strikes me as Mazer's tendency towards overcorrection popping up again

But we'll see how it plays out

Wasn't that exact same bulker angular thrust change in the last Testulous patch as well?

[noble zodiac]

it was but the change got borked and didnt work for some reason

[wet root]

Ahh

Curious how Jury-Rigged Reactors change the MD liner math

Beyond the +200% chance of exploding to missiles

[wary flame]

Still no fixes for any of the quality of life problems but that's a lot of speed, damn, I'm pretty sure you can just blow clean through 90% of PD with the upgraded decoy setups me and Pyrope developed

I wasn't working with mixed salvo rocket containers anyway because they were already slower than anything else you had and regular containers absolutely couldn't take a 20m/s speed hit

I do really question the approach of making containers not die in the last 500m by making them fast rather than making them tougher, but we'll see

I like backpacks but I feel that if we're specifically introducing things to be backpacks you need to make the ConL hull less janky, considering functional backpacks do most of its job just as well with denser rocket containers and decoy-packed support containers reducing the channel requirements significantly, and they're infinitely less expensive.

[tulip vault]

oof, yknow, I feel like this just makes the problem with individual tugs worse without really fixing tugblobs much

especially since I really don't think tugblobs have ever been that oppressive if they don't use missiles

[mint sinew]

Ran the numbers out of curiosity, they don't change the breakpoints at their current values. For 5 more points you can just buy another PCC that makes more power off the boosted reactor alone.

The real change to MD breakpoints was the previous BW2000 buff and the new bulker base turn rate buff. If the turnrate ends up acceptable with a power drive you can sneak the 4th EReg in pretty cheaply

[tulip vault]

the JRR seems very silly

I like the idea

[wary flame]

14 channel CLN real

[mint sinew]

Yeah, I think the initial look at MD liners is probably wrong. The power output needed to outcompete more PCCs is silly.

I think the actual home will be something like a double drive LN that needs room to buff its guns. Basically any shell that doesn't have room for a real reactor and can't load up on light civvies

[wary flame]

Probably not worth it with new support containers packing as many decoys as you want anyway, but fun

[tulip vault]

wait can you actually do that with the JRR?

that's kinda amazing

[mint sinew]

I did just describe a CLN's requirements didn't I..

[wary flame]

You can do that now, it just required six entire PCCs so it was infeasible

Hang on

[mint sinew]

On paper the maths says you just need 2x JRR and a BW2000 to be powered with 5 arrays and 4 banks. Even leaves you with 450kW for luxuries like PD

Though the buffed BW2000 is doing most of that lifting.

2x PCC +BW2000 would now scrape you over that line. The existence of the JRR (under current stats) saves you 10 points and nets you 200 kW

[wary flame]

ahahaha what the fuck

[mint sinew]

The old Range=Yes missile is back in service

[wary flame]

behold

the surrender CLN

[mint sinew]

Horrifying

[tulip vault]

why does it have the mini container racks

[wary flame]

because with only jury rigged reactors and PCC spam it doesn't have power for more than one large one

containers on the Fast Boot Device are very nippy

[wary flame]

OK, the speed increase has outweighed agility by such a massive margin it's hard to actually aim these things

[noble zodiac]

lmao what the fuck

[wary flame]

welp, containers dead again since it turns out a single SSJ S2 AMM spoofs the entire salvo

they dump decoys into open space then turn around to chase it the moment it gets near, couldn't be a worse result

jams act, triggers decoys on arad, no other seeker available

[sharp crow]

the activist decoy

[wary flame]

that is exactly what I named it when I made mine

[sharp crow]

I imagine it's roughly 8 points too

[wary flame]

8pts, cold gas, wake seeker so it doesn't get suppressed by BSSJs, doesn't need to actually aim

[sharp crow]

do wake AMMs work properly?

or are you just launching this manually into a volley

[noble zodiac]

wait whar

shouldn't the-

OH THE DECOYS

right

[wary flame]

you just tap Z

[noble zodiac]

well wait hangon

[wary flame]

spoofs it even without the decoys since you only have Act and Arad seekers now

literally no way around it

[noble zodiac]

so the decoys dump

but what about triple seeker?

[tulip vault]

dang maybe I do need to try the Activer Decoy

[noble zodiac]

shouldnt the wakeval pull the main tainers into the target?

i guess if they EMCON...

[wary flame]

a) you can't take wake val on the support containers due to slot limits
b) wake val now has no cool-off time
c) the AMM reaches the salvo before they see the target, so they have nothing to validate on

[tulip vault]

oh wake val doesn't have the half-minute cool-off now?

[noble zodiac]

well, yeah, on the supports

[wary flame]

gamma if the decoys are all dumped into open space it doesn't matter how good your seekers are

[noble zodiac]

right

[wary flame]

so any combination of not getting rear arc, the enemy hitting All Stop and the enemy hitting emcon will delete your salvo

this applies to literally any OSP cruise missile

not just containers

since it jams anything Act-based, regardless of validator, and it absolutely ruins ARAD

[sharp crow]

new container support option: a pavise on the front to shoot down amms

[supple sonnet]

Nah just an AMMM bus

[wary flame]

trying triple seeker EACT on everything, using decoy warhead supports to dribble-deploy the decoys in the hope of avoiding too much divergence

I think they might have nerfed wakeval a bit too much

[sharp crow]

I'm telling you

pavise container

lets lean into the early carrier dlc

[tulip vault]

where's my standoff warhead which shoots a single 450 shell

[sharp crow]

I was gonna say you have S1 hekp already but you don't anymore as osp. ans bias shows again.

[tulip vault]

honestly of all the weird things happening to the OSP I actually like them not having HEKP

it was all but never used and I kinda don't hate differentiating missiles like that

[supple sonnet]

We had some s1 HEKP missles scatterd around so like if that goes ive we do have a few fleets that will need a rework

[wary flame]

if it was up to me, I'd give Wake Val its cooloff period back so it's not completely useless and then give OSP S2s and S3s EO back, since only containers really had it removed for any actual reason

[tulip vault]

yeah, torps losing EO is really rough

especially since decoys are just completely borked with CMD

[oak shell]

Oh, in what way?

[supple sonnet]

I woud asume they woud fire off at the same time terminals engaged wich ike can be right out of the launcher, so if your not doing a head on torp run they will spreed

[tulip vault]

Ilkay's right on the money

and with hotlaunch right out of the launcher tends to be up into nowhere when not using MLS

albeit this is mostly only a relevant issue for torpcellos but it does affect other things in more niche situations

[wary flame]

damn the overshoot here is just awful

containers are going to need a bit of extra agi to use any of this speed

[wet root]

Can't you trade the speed for agi already?

Also, wow, I hadn't realized wake val has no cooloff period at all now, that sucks

I guess OSP just doesn't have an answer to all stop, pop chaff, kill radar (outside CMD)?

I'm honestly really annoyed by that change, having wake val only validate within a certain angle makes missile game/counterplay so much more interesting, and this just throws that entire set of interactions in the bin

Like, it's still there, but why bother being careful about cruising your missiles behind them or angling your ship defensively when you can just all stop

[wary flame]

not enough, it's still terrible container agility

you lose like 10km of range to get a tiny increase in turn speed

[bitter furnace]

I would have much preferred if WAKE pri was brought to the level of old WAKE val, not the other way around. In general, making your opponent think about engine/radar usage before the missiles appear is much more interesting than allowing them to flick it off and on during the missile strike IMO

[bitter furnace]

Unfortunately, making them resist Defenders for even a couple seconds would come at the cost of making them invulnerable to all other PDTs, just because of how the damage values are set up

[wary flame]

if you increased their armour to the point they had 50% DR against defenders and then boosted Sarissa AP to the point it didn't matter there, you would make them last for a decent bit longer

alternatively, nerf the defender and adjust torpedoes slightly to compensate because having a PDT that does infinite damage is incredibly annoying to balance around and warps everything

[supple sonnet]

I mean lets be honest, it's not hard to make a cheepish torp that basicaly ignores any resonable amount of defenders

Hardkill for torps is killing the ship with them, and defenders at this point mostaly just stop containers. containers being biger and slower then torps meens they need to have to deal with the anti-torp mesures that only sometimes work agesnt torps but murder containers.

[bitter furnace]

Yeah it's not impossible to make work, there are options, but it causes so many side effects that it would take a while to balance out. The speed is a simpler change with less side effects that hopefully also accomplishes the desired result

the update cycle is nearing completion so we can't be getting into any new balancing quagmires

[bitter furnace]

what do you think about upping the speed of the R6s (not the R12s) from 175 to 200 or something like that

[wary flame]

210 might work but I need to sit down and figure out the optimal speed for the new containers anyway. At 225 they oversteer so massively it's impossible to do neat cruise with them, I really think that they need some more agility if they're going to be faster than they are on main.

Container agi doesn't actually make them better at PD pen since they flat out cannot do terminals, but normally they're working off 2km act seekers these days so they really struggle to stay on target and not fire all their decoys into the black while turning very slowly.

Number 1 problem is that a single SSJ AMM (or blanket) ruins any seeker combination on any container strike besides rockets or pure CMD, making them pretty useless, I don't really think they'll be any good until that's solved.

[wet root]

What I mean is, since the only change was to max speed, isn't the old triangle a subset of the current one? I can't test it now, but is it not possible to have the exact same speed and agi as before just with a bit more range, or same speed and range but more agi, etc

(Unless you were already in a corner of the triangle)

I guess subset is the wrong term, but close enough

[bitter furnace]

Yeah that’s how it should work

[mint sinew]

It sounds like Misc's issue is that for a given range the Agi available isn't enough to support the faster speeds.

As you noted you can match existing range/speed and get a little extra Agi, but that drops off quickly

[wary flame]

yeah, because containers trade for agi at such an abysmal rate, it is extremely hard to go faster without needing to spend disproportionately on agi

[wet root]

Ah, fair - even if it's technically an upgrade, the effects are a lot lesser than the patch notes make it look

[bitter furnace]

yeah that's true

[wet root]

Except if you needed extra range but they're containers, they could already circle pillars thrice

[bitter furnace]

I've always found it a little weird how the max range is much higher at the speed apex of the triangle, than it is at the agility apex. They're the same distance away from the range apex

[wet root]

It makes sense mechanically, since the other apex is actually burn time IIRC, but yeah it always throws me off

I definitely think of it as range even if it's technically not

[bitter furnace]

Ohhhhhhhhhhhh

right, so more speed adds to the range since it combines with burn time

[wet root]

What's really weird about that is that some missiles (torps IIRC?) actually lose range if you go to minimum speed

(Same reason in that the maximum of burn time*speed is at a speed above the minimum, but, like, who would design a missile to have that option?)

[supple sonnet]

I think that's most missles if you go for max burn time

[olive blade]

yeah thats rough

I'm not really sure S2 dumps are that viable either really

blankets destroy gales and are gonna be even more common from these container changes

you can do cmd but its expensive and very all in

[supple sonnet]

Last boatnight i managed to get some good s2 dumps off but that was more do to picking on the ships that did not have much in the way of flack. but those were also not gales.

and with how folks are trying to stop torps with hard kill they have been skimping on flack, so s2's might have more of an ecological nich for now.

[low pier]

In my (admittedly somewhat out of date at this point) experience S2 dumps vary in effectiveness depending on if the target has paid the flak tax
If they have they are nigh on impervious to them but if they haven't or their PD grid has been degraded by other fire S2 dumps can be devastating

[olive blade]

its more the seeker issues than the s2s getting shot down

I feel

[wet root]

I'm definitely a lot more concerned by hardkill than softkill when I play Gales

[supple sonnet]

While i think it's posable to all stop, turn off radar and chaff. i think that doing that all with in time is doable but i think most of the time that's the worst option, such as when you add in any gun.

[wet root]

But I also bring enough illuminators to break through jamming

[wet root]

IMO that's reasonable against things like torpedo-armed tugs or backpack missiles, but it becomes problematic when it works reliably against containers, because that's all container liners do

[supple sonnet]

Like sure that's more doable agesnt containers but agesnt s2's IDK

Yeah containers are defintaly having a bad time, but like even on main you can out drift them in a BB

[wet root]

I think it's somewhat awkward against OSP gales as well because they tend to be quite all-in, dodging a salvo is a lot of the entire OSP team's damage down the drain

Like, that's much more of a choice when you're watching a salvo of S3H come in and are taking fire from a gun liner squadron

[tulip vault]

Ive got quite a bit of experience with OSP galespam and I am way more worried about softkill than hardlill

Like, Ive tuned the gales to the point that I don’t really think PD stops them, except maybe pyrope really really trying

But 90% of my decision making is figuring out how to either peel off escorts or how to not get my missiles softkilled

[wet root]

Oh wait I misread that, rescinding my

[junior heron]

I definitely haven't felt the end-of-missiles that it feels like has been the presiding sentiment here - if I'm misunderstanding let me know. Mostly a skill and/or build issue on my part, but I don't feel like I can effectively defend against a salvo of decoy containers, nor against a super massive s2 dump.

[wary flame]

the Activist Decoy is just "click one button, remove container salvo"

and also works on any cruise S2 dump and SAH/HOJ

[wet root]

SAH/WAKE wins again

[junior heron]

doesn't it still require plotting out a missile path while there's a volley inbound?

[wary flame]

no

[tulip vault]

I don’t trust wake seekers, especially now

[wary flame]

make it an AMM, set to manual, press Z on volley

done

[junior heron]

oh

[tulip vault]

But also with hoj at least you usually kill something

[wet root]

The trick for SAH/WAKE is they don't actually have a secondary seeker, they have a rock that keeps them from wiggling under jamming

[wary flame]

even if the SSJ AMM didn't delete containers, pressing All Stop and firing one active decoy would

[tulip vault]

I think though largely gales being softkillable is fine because you can’t really shoot them down

[junior heron]

what is it about the SSJ that makes it so effective - does an offset jammer work?

[wet root]

Yeah, Gales are in a good spot IMO

[tulip vault]

Containers a lot less so because like

[wet root]

I'm worried about OSP's cruise options now, but gales and torps seem pretty healthy

[tulip vault]

It’s hit or miss but an axford + 1 escort seems to be able to handle them alright

[wary flame]

offset jammer instantly pops decoys and pulls the missiles, so it functionally deletes the salvo too, but it's way harder to pull off than just pressing Z on the AMM because blankets need stuff like "points investment" and "power" and "a firing arc"

the AMM is Press Z To Remove ConL

[tulip vault]

Now Im wondering, does the activest decoy work on the typical ANS missile?

I know people don’t tend to run EO, I think

[wet root]

Not Stairs, yes ARAD/ACT

[tulip vault]

What do the stairs do again?

[wet root]

The latter is the most common S3H I've seen

[wet root]

ACT/WAKE

[tulip vault]

Ah

[supple sonnet]

Yeah slow ish, and high G so if they miss the wake makes them pull a U turn

[mint sinew]

Yeah, I've been running container versions of the activist decoy for a while and they are great

[bitter furnace]

Assuming you're referring to what I think you're referring to, yes. I have seen cheap SSJ containers put in waypointed patrols around OSP's natural caps at the start of the match, and in a few cases they've completely foiled ARAD/ACT strikes on the opening cappers

[wary flame]

that actually takes effort though, and this does not and is a lot worse, because OSP have no Act/[EO] and a lot less scope for Act/[CMD]

[wet root]

I've been considering putting one of them on my monitor backpacks

[bitter furnace]

another time an SSJ container was placed by my CLN teammate in close escort with my MNs while I evaded in place for a while, and it saved my ass

[wet root]

But also you can just predeploy chaff and kill radar for much the same effect

[wary flame]

if the CLN had slots to actually reliably fit those it would be nice

[wet root]

Activest decoy is also less needed when you can use lineship decoys against the same ARAD/ACT

[mint sinew]

You can just snap off SSJ containers like the S2 version, they are just slower off the mark

[wet root]

And they have longer flight duration and arad capture range IIRC

[junior heron]

...does z-key AMM also get to ignore programming time?

[wary flame]

yes

[junior heron]

fuck

that'd explain why it felt like shit when I tried it

[wary flame]

issue is that if a hybrid stages on your ship while the SSJ container is slowly launching, it's probably going to hit you anyway

they have the same arad capture range

also, ANS has other seekers, OSP does not

[wet root]

Huh, thought SSJ was shorter range

TIL

[mint sinew]

Yeah, even hot launch takes a bit to get clear

[junior heron]

btw - what determines which AMMs get used in PD-prioritization?

[wary flame]

all of them that are set to attack that missile type, as far as I know

ANS makes way better use of the SSJ AMM because they don't really use other AMMs

so they can have the whole ship on manual and just tapfire them with Z

[junior heron]

ship on manual, missile set to fire on size 3 should work?

[wary flame]

ship on manual, missile set to fire on All

still won't fire unless you say so

[junior heron]

though, sad as I am that it does nothing, I still desperately want to manual prioritize the actual incoming containers that my PD refuses to shoot at

and that'd lead to me wasting a lot of missiles

[wary flame]

simply do not

[junior heron]

trade offer:
you get: EO back, better decoy separation
I get: manual PD control back

[wary flame]

no

[junior heron]

:(

[wary flame]

I like having missiles that kinda sorta maybe work a bit rather than ways to give people the beginnings of RSI and nothing else

[olive blade]

does this actually work?

[wary flame]

anyway, the test patch has buffed softkill into the stratosphere and now the missiles don't work in an extremely boring way

change it back please game I like having versatility

[olive blade]

I thought it jammed out the seeker

yeah basically

I do like the current state of torps at least

they do kill the shit out of stuff you get in on

[wet root]

Yes, I'm not sure what the threshold is off the top of my head

[olive blade]

I have definitely been jammed out with 5 illuminators going

[wet root]

But it's not that hard to do against one jammer, and you will always win if you get into a stacking game

Since illuminators don't stack diminishingly

[olive blade]

hrm

[wet root]

I use 7 on my ANS gales, but also it depends on range

[olive blade]

oh to be clear

I'm talking just about osp here

ans gales are fine

[wet root]

Oh, it's still doable there - my torp liners do it easily - but it's harder

(Those liners have 6 illums on target from close range, I doubt it's possible to blind that)

[olive blade]

I think thats fine at close but I do want my roofguns

[tulip vault]

That is

a lot of illums

[wet root]

Also SAH sometimes just ignores jamming briefly, which makes SAH/WAKE unreasonably good

[tulip vault]

I have 2 but that's for redundancy rather than breaking through jamming

[olive blade]

and I want to be able to gale people at like 8-10km okay through like maybe 2 blankets

[wet root]

3 per liner, for redundancy and so I have full coverage

[tulip vault]

I mean tbh if you want to go through blankets my suggestion is salvo depth and HoJ

[olive blade]

hoj can get pulled

[wet root]

I've found two illuminators likes to leave blind spots

[tulip vault]

yeah, that's like, the goal

kill the jamming escorts, then kill the thing

[olive blade]

no like they use an offset jam to pull them off target and kill the jam

and you hit nothing

[wet root]

I really dislike giving the enemy control over my missiles

Because yeah, that

[olive blade]

amusingly its not far off range gate cutoff, which was an actual ewar tactic used against missiles

in like vietnam

[tulip vault]

I mean that is a thing which happens, yeah, but I think I've had that happen... twice? and it was misc every time

[olive blade]

I don't want to play a strategy that gets hard countered by player skill

[wet root]

Also just a lot harder to manual aim illums to avoid chaff against the smaller targets

[tulip vault]

I don't think that's as much player skill as like, a weird edge case

[olive blade]

its a deliberate and common thing people are bringing in fleets

[tulip vault]

Is it?

Maybe I have a different idea of what offset entails

[wet root]

Like, it's not hard for the escort you can't see to jam, pop chaff, then kill the jamming once they're not on target for the capital, and you have seconds to adjust your illuminators to hit the escort but not the chaff

which doesn't require an offset

[supple sonnet]

It's also good as if you fuck it up, you just lose a jamming ship. and don't take a full gale dump on your capitl

[wet root]

Sometimes SAH/WAKE works but that's a bug, I suspect you'd need a fair few lighthouses since IIRC they're not that bright

[olive blade]

wake is getting hit pretty hard

[wet root]

TIL spotlight and lighthouse have the exact same beam width

[wet root]

Yeah but not for Gales

Well, except SAH[WAKE]

[olive blade]

I tend to use a mix of roughly 3:1 SAH/WAKE to HOJ so if they pull the hoj and cut they at least are not jamming out the otehrs

I was using SAH[WAKE] a bit

[wet root]

I like having a salvo or two for hitting swarms

It's a pain to aim illuminators when there's six ships popping chaff

[olive blade]

yeah

[wet root]

Also good for if their chaff box is at the wrong angle (e.g. right between you)

[olive blade]

but generally I expect to see heavier jamming

now that it does stuff to containers

I think torps on osp are fine but they have a lot of other constraints

[wet root]

Myeah, that will be awkward for Gales

[tulip vault]

I dunno I feel like if there’s a jamming escort somewhere I can’t see with the jamming off it’s not doing a great job of being a jamming escort

[wet root]

No, I mean I can't see it through the jamming

(But I can see the capital)

[supple sonnet]

It's not a llike good jamming ship if it can't hide a capital. but like the Queen of Hunger is my baby.

[tulip vault]

Anyways something neat I just learned, you can illuminate down jamming strobes