Jenna Moran Games (Nobilis, Chuubo's, Glitch, WTF)

[frank light]

yea!!!

[narrow tartan]

nodnod

[fleet harbor]

It would also be fitting with them exploring some new dimensions

[undone flame]

White beret guy is my favorite xkcd character

[narrow tartan]

I assume that. Things known in the prosaic usually correspond to something real?

Its either that or Earth is stuck in a Fawlty Towers plot

[frank light]

Typically

[narrow tartan]

Hmm. Nobilis/Jennagame power fantasies are fun because they arent about making the world better. They are about settling petty grudges against reality

And. I could kill time. And have friends.

[gloomy oasis]

So what is Black Hat Guy?

[magic mason]

Context?

[vivid wraith]

xkce character

xkcd

[candid compass]

Black Hat is a Deceiver I think

[fleet harbor]

Yeah, probably

Alternately: a retired warmain

Because we know he gave up on anything mattering in the late 90s

[reef perch]

https://xkcd.com/2350 for the uninitiated

xkcd: Deer Turrets

When my great grandfather designed the Titanic and it hit an iceberg and sank, he didn't sit around moping. He took those lessons to his next job designing airships, and he made the Hindenburg completely iceberg-proof!

[fleet harbor]

I could see him as a warmain who has stopped testing but is still vaguely malicious

But Deceiver works for sure

[obsidian dagger]

terrible idea for the worst pState: The Copper Sold by Ea-Nasir.

[obsidian dagger]

Angels always feel that those around them could be better, and fail to live up to perfection. How do they think about themselves? Do they similarly see themselves as imperfect (if still better than those around them) and believe they themselves can perpetually do better?

I mean, that's the kind of mindset that would motivate them to do a Gold arc, and they do have Chosen One which means they spend at least some time doing Gold arcs (or at least it's in their idiom).

Similarly, do Fallen Angels love themselves (and all their flaws) by default, or is that mindset moreso something that forms from being surrounded by Hell?

[vivid wraith]

the Song of Hell seems to have existed (at least slightly) before the War in Heaven and therefore the Fallen's exile to Hell itself

So I don't think being surrounded by Hell is necessary for it

[tall jolt]

I imbue the qualities of the copper of Ea-Nasir onto the Excrucian Weapon

[tall jolt]

Honestly

not terrible

Debuff Noble

Also inexplicably finance Noble, not that money really matters to them

[obsidian dagger]

https://xkcd.com/2620/ xkcd continues to be relevant.

xkcd: Health Data

Donate now to help us find a cure for causality. No one should have to suffer through events because of other events.

[fleet harbor]

Yep

[candid compass]

the alt text is a very Ninuan pilled sentence

[obsidian dagger]

my thoughts exactly

[patent tiger]

lmao

[obsidian dagger]

So. Exoplanets are probably the result of the prosaic filling space as examined, with the theory that the earth can't be the only planet because then it'd be more important than everywhere else and that's why the prosaic exists. My question is: how real is the moon?

[candid compass]

the moon is real

but we don't know much about it

It may be connected to Ninuan somehow?

[frank light]

to be fair

exoplanets could be other worlds on the ash

that just look like theyre orbiting stars because the prosaic is fitting it together

the prosaic is a perspective on things but that doesnt mean that the things within it arent real
just

changed to fit into a scientific paradigm

mars and mercury and the moon are all real and absolutely things that exist

alpha centauri is probably a distant world

[obsidian dagger]

Fair enough.

[frank light]

also yeah the moon is sorta kinda connected to the void

in some weird way

[narrow tartan]

Hmm. Is there canonically only one Sun?

[obsidian dagger]

Fair enough. "Real" isn't the right word to use.

[narrow tartan]

Question doesnt matter.

[tall jolt]

the sun is a deadly laseeer

[frank light]

i think so

at least, if shes an angel

[tall jolt]

I have the answer

Theres only one sun because all the rest are stars

😎

[narrow tartan]

I decided to abandon the question because. Its important to not just try and find justification for an interesting headcanon/idea. Flexibility is important. And getting too invested in an idea isnt good

[vivid wraith]

I'm also going to say: in open-ended ttrpg settings it's totally okay to say "i think my idea is cooler than canon"

which is also different than trying to prove it canon or canon-compatible

[narrow tartan]

Agreed.

Baskcally. I wanted yo avoid the later because trying to make an idea fit instead of just doing my pwn thing isnt good

[candid compass]

in our current Glitch game, The Sun was a specific thing that was killed

and needed to have its place filled by a star

[narrow tartan]

nodnod

[patent tiger]

(That star keeps getting murdered and replaced; in living memory, the sun has gone through multiple different stars occupying its position)

(The current one is yellow)

[candid compass]

ah, is that why there was no sun for a bit at the start of the campaign?

not that most of us really noticed

[obsidian dagger]

...I am suddenly remembering a particular revelation from Undead Unluck, and realizing I still need to finish it.

Undead Unluck is tonally probably a Strategist game. There's some meaningful differences but it's thematically about some of the same stuff.

like. Random people get given superpowers which make them privy to the deeper truths of reality but this is primarily an awful life-ruining thing.

[patent tiger]

That, and the Imperator of Stars directly was in a bit of a predicament and needed time to recover

So the sky was a little fucked up overall

[obsidian dagger]

I will never get over this random yugioh card lore from a side story which was never officially translated but which goes unnecessarily hard in ways which makes me think of nobilis stuff:

A “god” is that which steals: It wears the clothes of humans, it wields the weapons of humans
A “god” is that which devours: It swallows the life of humans, it slurps the death of humans
A “god” is that which grieves: It pities the sorrow of humans, it curses the love of humans
A “god” is that which dies: It destroys humans, it is destroyed by humans
A “god” is that which is born: Countless times, countless times

[frank light]

Yeah

[magic mason]

Free Imperator for chat:

Angel of Fighter Jets, Hurricanes, and Close Encounters of the Third Kind

[vivid wraith]

nyoom

[fleet harbor]

So, I started reading Summerland, by Michael Chabon

[obsidian dagger]

oh summerland was so good. I'm suddenly vividly remembering it and... yeah. It's Froofs.

[fleet harbor]

And starting with chapter 2, this is the most Nobilis thing I have ever read.

[obsidian dagger]

...you know what else I just remembered and would be ripe for Chuubo's analysis? Gunnerkrigg Court.

[vivid wraith]

it would be!

[vivid wraith]

oooooooh

[fleet harbor]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/533076333568196608/1373397327963885810/20250515_142055.jpg.png?ex=682a436f&is=6828f1ef&hm=bbf7ff3f2987f01ed1176fab9109db3307119ffa69bd6ee91ae11e048940608d&

The Parable of the Fire

[obsidian dagger]

http://thecodelesscode.com/case/40 randomly-encountered strangely-phrased thing which is somehow still reminiscent of Nobilis

or is... kind of just meta in general, really.

[restive ridge]

Very true

[frank light]

Holy shit

[vestal mist]

Idea

Strategist, dying of laughter

[vivid wraith]

the jonker

[narrow tartan]

I think, I had an idea in that vein who just has no sense of humor. Until something gets him to laugh and he dies

[obsidian dagger]

Thinking about a character who's more of an assumed identity. Like, a superhero, but the character only exists while someone is wearing that mask. And it might be different people wearing that mask, but they're the same character. And it's not just like mind control or flat possession either.

Or... relatedly, Divine Beast Dancing Lion from Elden Ring: Shadow of the Erdtree. Which is a divinity embodied in a lion dance. It's clear that there are a pair of dancers wearing the costume, but it's also clear narratively that they aren't the Dancing Lion. The Dancing Lion exists within the performance.

[narrow tartan]

Saw a magical girl Deceiver like that. Her P-State was, "...Just like in [deceivername's] show!"

[patent tiger]

Damn

[narrow tartan]

Strategist with a destruction in the vein of king crimson. As a side effect he gets edited out of video footage

[obsidian dagger]

yeah, King Crimson is an entirely valid use of the World-Breaker's Hand!

[candid compass]

It Just Works

[restive ridge]

Diavolo is Strategist coded anyways

[fleet harbor]

Doing a Laika scene in Nobilis

This happened in the OOC chat

[frank light]

hahaha

yeahhh

[fleet harbor]

Brilliant pun

[frank light]

OH WAIT HER LAST NAME IS DEVILLE

im gonna be real that was not intentional

[fleet harbor]

... XD

[vivid wraith]

https://youtu.be/9SwFwTrwS9I?feature=shared

[fleet harbor]

... yeah okay that's very Nobilis

[obsidian dagger]

I'm watching this and this whole thing is very surreal thus far and it's barely started.

[narrow tartan]

Deceiver who is kind of bad at loving the true thing behind humans.

[obsidian dagger]

Thoughts: Ave Xia Rem Y doesn't look like a Wounded Angel story per se, but it really, really is. There are central themes involving the characters wondering if they're adapting or decaying, or having to decide which moral lines they can or should cross.

[narrow tartan]

I desire the power to tear the world apart and remake it better than it is

[narrow tartan]

Dogs are of the fallen. But. The part of the fallen that is holy

[vivid wraith]

yeah

[narrow tartan]

Hmm. Never nailed down details of how my PFP OC strategist dies.

Does she become so impure that the vere aie itself is an apotropaic ward against her?

[vivid wraith]

That could be neat
the world itself strives to exorcise her... except Banes aren't creational so the theological implications here are very unclear
i like it

[fleet harbor]

robin furiously scribbling notes

[magic mason]

Reuniting Pangea by playing matchmaker with the true gods of each continent who had a falling out long ago

[frank light]

SO TRUE

[narrow tartan]

Alternatively trying to get the Serpent of Jigsaw puzzles to switch mood to "putting things together" instead of "tearing them apart"

[vivid wraith]

Oh that's good

[frank light]

Yeah

[patent tiger]

Yeah

[narrow tartan]

Am I the only one who daydreams about divine power?

[wheat cobalt]

no, I do that a lot too

[narrow tartan]

nodnod

WBHands JK Rowling's later novels.

[narrow tartan]

I like that Glitch Miraculous Attributes offer low hanging fruit

[vivid wraith]

how so?

[narrow tartan]

I accidentally deleted a message going over my PFPs build

[narrow tartan]

Just. Eide, Lore and Wyrd have low level abilities that really smooth out being a Strategist.

[vivid wraith]

they do, that's true

[narrow tartan]

Makes buying 1 or 2 levels in them worthwhile

Also. Brain is trying to do something silly.

Deceivers and Strategists each share an arc with Nobles and an arc with Mimics.

Makes me want that to apply to Warmains

Which is tricky

[narrow tartan]

Eide 3, Wyrd 6, Lore 1
Purify for 2, Timeless for 1, Bond that gives Superior Holy for 1, and ??? For 1?

[narrow tartan]

Hmmm. Moments of strength and moments of weakness

"the real deceiver name..."

[narrow tartan]

But. The strategist. Hemito? I think... I should like tattoo that on myself or something so I stop forgetting

I should write up a few versions of her bane and figure out what is best.

[narrow tartan]

Huh. The Glitch being present but not active

[obsidian dagger]

...would a Strategist Dying of Sleep be constantly sleepy, or a constantly-awake ultra-wired caffeine junkie who never stops moving? (Or, similarly, one Dying of Stillness.)

[candid compass]

it could be either

the exact manifestation of your Bane is pretty flexible

[vivid wraith]

maybe they go back and forth depending on when they get killed

[candid compass]

Agony even lets you change it when you want to

[obsidian dagger]

I did similarly see a fic where Sonic the Hedgehog was Dying of ||Stability|| so that points to the latter.

[candid compass]

hell, going in the classic spirit of "there's a guy chasing you down" Dying of Sleep could even see you being hunted down by some kind of Sandman-esque entity

[patent tiger]

Everyone around them is sleeping on the job (literally or metaphorically) so they keep getting hit with cars from drivers that spaced out

[narrow tartan]

...frank grimes as a ???

Frank grimes is the guy from the simpsons episode "homers enemy" in which he is new worker frustrated by homer who eventually flips out and dies

[obsidian dagger]

I haven't watched the episode but I would guess Deceiver probably?

[narrow tartan]

Probably. Only problem is that I dont know what a good p state name would be

[obsidian dagger]

I haven't watched the episode so I can't help.

[narrow tartan]

Fajr enough. Just an idle thought

[obsidian dagger]

this might not be right but the society <deceivername> lives in is interesting as a concept. And may or may not fit this particular deceiver, admittedly.

[narrow tartan]

Ooh interesting

[vivid wraith]

Most of the time "the guy who dies" is a Strategist

[obsidian dagger]

true. Strategist might be more correct, because strategists also learn something about the truth behind the world (specifically, that it's broken).

[magic mason]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GOH-F8psTs
Thinking about this as a Decieveer song again

[narrow tartan]

Hmm.
God musing on killing a follower and calling them, "Tools to use and throw away" was good line. Especially with the context.

[narrow tartan]

What arc would Joker have that created all the joker gangs in Batman Beyond?

[vivid wraith]

maaaaybe Deepness?

[fleet harbor]

Yeah I think Deepness

That's the "I turn you into me" arc

[narrow tartan]

I always thought that what deepness did to you isn't exactly turning you into whoever uses it on you.

Though it can definitely do that.

But I think it does fit for them maybe?

[candid compass]

Well technically you reveal that thar person had been part of you all along

But that's effectively the same thing

[narrow tartan]

Its similar yeah.

I always thought of it as almost, more sinister?
Like, the opposite of normal mind control almost?
Just, the classic

"I know you are still in there speech" isn't applicable. Because what is left of the person who has been converted is the outer layers. While "in there" is what has been replaced.

Or alternatively. Taking over the character is at a player level. It also exists at an in universe level and if the player wants to they can just subsume their convert. But the starting point is that this is still the same person but someone else has taken over behind the screen

[grand knot]

You know, gonna repost this here. Bout Seizhi and Miramie
What does it mean to be real. What does it mean to be part of the world
What does it mean to exist when you must construct yourself and your place in the world, your past does not exist. When everyone must put on masks but you don't know what amount is healthy and normal.
What does it mean to exist when much of the world is hostile to you. When you must find out what and who accept your existence, and want to sever the past

[vivid wraith]

That's basically what the campaign is about when you decide to play as them

the book doesn't provide easy answers on those fronts

[narrow tartan]

Are my interpretations of deepness weird?

[candid compass]

well Deepness as a stat is very weird tbh

[restive ridge]

Could be worse, i just hand out Deepness for free if you can ressurect

[obsidian dagger]

it isn't even immortal...

[restive ridge]

Comprehensive list of characters that Morgana thinks have/had a Deepness Arc:
-Billy Pilgrim from Slaughterhouse 5
-Star Constellation Immortal Venerable
-most buddha style characters
-Dark lords, but only if they have enstranged hero children
-Cultivators from good xianxia
-The Boss from Metal Gear Solid
-Madoka
-The entire main cast of Limbus Company
-Dolores Dei
-Majime Yamashita
-Controlling Parents from Disney movies
-the protagonist of "It Gets So Lonely Here"
-Slay The Princess, just the entirety of it

-oh also God AI's

[vivid wraith]

expand on the controlling parents one

[obsidian dagger]

Deepness/Awakening sometimes looks like Creature of Fable because Red and Black sometimes look similar.

which is interesting, because red is the most facile surface level stuff, and black is the deepest depths of reality.

[obsidian dagger]

The big sign for Awakening, and I might be overly restrictive in this definition, is that the person you spend 99% of the time interacting with isn't really them, just... a vessel for them.

[frank light]

When someone is a tendril of a bigger thing, yeah

Or represents something larger

[narrow tartan]

I still like the joke idea that Iolithae Septimian if she gets sufficiently killed might pop up as Iolithae Octavia with slight differences.

She just gets recast

[obsidian dagger]

it's not that they're immortal, not really. It's just that they're too far away to be meaningfully hurt most of the time.

[candid compass]

Someone else will read the Lies, and realise they are Iolithae Septimian

[obsidian dagger]

...is that how all Deceivers work? Someone else will find the same True Thing, and become the same person, or at least be played by the same player?

[restive ridge]

She's become Iolithae Sixtian

you dont want to see what happens when Iolithae Priminian dies

[magic mason]

My understanding is that decievers sorta of are their Persona/Star Quality Mythos

That the Story Of Them is more important than Them

And that is why they have deepness

[obsidian dagger]

I mean, if you want an unusully literal one, you could have <deceivername>'s disease... although that feels weirdly Strategist-y in some way.

[frank light]

Not all of them

But that’s how Iolithae does

[obsidian dagger]

...Morgellons as a pState.

[frank light]

If you’re, for example, halchusind who’s Pstate is her shadow

It might be more accurate that another shadow rises up to be halchusind’s

[magic mason]

Any religiously abused girl can realize she was a goddess all along and become Iolathe Septimian

Any manipulative piece of shit can realize they were Phasael from the start(I don’t actually know his Story)

Any commander or other leader who ends up unable to accept what happened to their men might be Corriander Hasp

That type of thing

And this is sorta what their conversions would look like at least

In my brain

Its about people hitting the same “story beats” that makes that deciever that deciever

[narrow tartan]

Oh speedster with sealed. Whose hacks logic is not based on what moving fast can do but how moving fast is framed.

[candid compass]

Speedsters are very Sealed coded
ostensibly overpowered, but can never quite seem to actually do as much as they should

[narrow tartan]

Superheros wirh Monstrous. Villains with Holy.

[obsidian dagger]

I prefer the name "creature of the light" to "holy" for that exact reason. Because it's a thing of the spotlight, and plenty of villains have it. Darth Vader has it.

[narrow tartan]

nodnod yeah.

Does he have Creature of the Light or Monstrous?

[candid compass]

Vader is Monstrous

he's pretty consistently portrayed as the bigger threat to whatever else is going on

[obsidian dagger]

I thought Creature of the Light.

He's the bigger threat, but he's not physically superior. Instead, he has the Auctoritas Magister; he's hard to stop.

[candid compass]

I would argue he is often both, but yes I could see that too

[restive ridge]

Vader has Arhitect cause he spends of all of his time in the acausal chaos of creation fucking moms

(Canon btw)

[candid compass]

also that yes
He definitely has Architect and Allegory
which clearly means he's a Warmain

[vivid wraith]

"win in a direct contest" is also a Monstrous thing

[obsidian dagger]

Fair! But I just... I dunno. It feels like it's usually hard to stop him, in a decidedly Auctoritas Magister way, rather than being exceptionally superlative in any particular field? Maybe I'm misremembering.

[fleet harbor]

Vader is a monstrous physical threat

He's a superb pilot and extraordinarily dangerous in a fight

[narrow tartan]

The headmaster is actually Darth Vader

[fleet harbor]

Pretty much

[obsidian dagger]

Thoughts: Empyreans in Elden Ring probably would be happy with the Fallen Angel arcset.

...I think. Miquella is his own can of worms.

I also can't help but wonder if he's Toxic, in the sense of a Keeper of Gardens. I don't know why I associate Toxic with a soporific beyond there being one as an example on exactly one NPC, though... especially when, in retrospect, inducing lassitude is specifically an Impressario power.

He almost certainly has or had something purple, though? Growing the Haligtree was probably a Purple thing.

[frank light]

oh yeah

they would be

i spoke about this with a friend too

[obsidian dagger]

I have no idea what Miquella is doing. Definitely some kind of Black arc, because "ritualistically divesting yourself of your flesh to become divine" is so Black. But St. Trina almost feels like a Green thing?

[frank light]

miquella i do still think could be classified as a fallen

Allegorical is also notably infectious in its own way

[obsidian dagger]

I mean, sure, Allegory describes his powers. But fallen angels do not have a black arc. And I'm honestly not entirely convinced ||Divine Miquella has the same arcs as Miquella the Empyrean from before the story started||.

[frank light]

fair enough

[narrow tartan]

Arranging arc colors into a hypercube to visualize how the different colors relate to eachother

[vivid wraith]

real

[narrow tartan]

Its even the correct number!

[obsidian dagger]

I found a fanfic description which feels very Chuubo's:

It's tough being a ten-year-old shapeshifting full-time test subject in a secret government lab. The experiments are hard, sometimes, and the research staff are annoying, and keeping track of all your limbs and eyes is an ongoing process. But at least Jesse's got her brother on her side. And Casper.

And—well, and *someone else*, too.

But that's none of your business.

Anyway, off to strain testing!

...anyway now I'm wondering about a campaign or story or something about child test subjects in a secret underground lab, coping with life when something happens to the lab.

[vivid wraith]

The Nephew of Deceivername

[obsidian dagger]

Thinking about Gatekeepers, and how Oblivious doesn't just have to represent... well, being oblivious. Specifically I'm thinking about Ranni, and how she's very close with Blaid even though he may be forced to later hurt and betray her (and in fact that may be his purpose, arguably). Where she's fully aware of that, not oblivious to it at all, and goes along anyway.

"I am close friends with the entity who is honor-sworn to be my doom" is definitely a vibe of some description, and I was wondering who that was, but that's Gatekeeper. ...or sometimes Called Away, in a backwards way.

[frank light]

Yeah

The obliviousness tends to be not doing something about it

Or knowing it ahead of time but acting anyway

Or just
Making bad friends

[obsidian dagger]

...okay, has anyone here read Qualia of the Vast? I'm thinking about it again.

It's one of those works that permanently rewired my brain chemistry after reading it, and I still think of it as a way of how red "perceiving the world idiosyncratically" can work, but also there might be some Deepness also?

But I'm not sure.

It's about a girl with purple eyes who sees people as machines.

[vivid wraith]

This isn't Qualia the Purple right

[obsidian dagger]

it is.

I thought it was sometimes translated as "Qualia of the Vast" somewhere and that name popped into my head first. I'm not sure why.

[vivid wraith]

ahaaa
I still don't know it

[obsidian dagger]

I would recommend you read it! I'm not sure if it's good or not, but, like I said, it permanently rewired my brain in certain ways.

[gloomy oasis]

It's me.

[vivid wraith]

yeah

[restive ridge]

Entropy 2 would post this in the gc

[fleet harbor]

entropy 2 doesn't understand that mental illness is socially constructed

[frank light]

Lmao

[obsidian dagger]

...it feels like Heaven and Hell would both be especially awful for mentally ill people.

[magic mason]

Yeah

[narrow tartan]

I think Heaven would be worse

[obsidian dagger]

it probably depends greatly on the mental illness. Like, if you're depressed, Hell is not going to help.

Or delusional.

[narrow tartan]

I could see Hell helping with depression. Sometimes.

[obsidian dagger]

Hell loves you exactly as you are. Why would it want to help you change?

all your self-defeating behaviors, and negative self image, and misery? Hell loves that about you.

[narrow tartan]

Specifically, Hell might sometimes help with the negative self image.

Or. A Famlen sharing their viewpoint might help with Negative Self Image.

[obsidian dagger]

Famlen?

[narrow tartan]

Fallen

Oops

[obsidian dagger]

Ah.

[narrow tartan]

Hmm. Is Taylor Hebert a Fallen or a Mimic?

[restive ridge]

I think Heaven pours kerosene and Hell throws dried tinderwood in this metaphor

[restive ridge]

I think she's a Deceiver or part of the Rules

[narrow tartan]

Jenna Moran assigned her Wounded Angel. But fair.

[fleet harbor]

Agreed, Heaven is extremely sympathetic but doesn't want to take away your opportunity to triumph over depression, and Hell thinks your depression is great and that you should stay just the way you are (depressed)

[narrow tartan]

I think that. Heaven presents an impossible ideal. Another standard to measure yourself against and fall short.

Hell will tell you that you have value even if you are a failure.

[fleet harbor]

More value if you're a failure, even

[vivid wraith]

https://youtu.be/Xwbl7aByScc?feature=shared

This is a song rec for Unicorn btw

[narrow tartan]

Could a Warmain temper an Imperator and then use whats left to make a mimic?

[candid compass]

unclear

it's probably possible for an Imperator to get tempered, but I don't think we have any examples of it

[obsidian dagger]

Thinking about Divine Beast Dancing Lion, especially in conjunction with Yatskaya-style Mystery channeling.

And, potentially, a Mystery who only tangibly exists while being channeled.

[obsidian dagger]

https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/almost-one why do I feel like I ought to share this here?

[frank light]

holy fucking shit

thats so good

[narrow tartan]

Mayhaps this is the true thing that deceivers see

Huh. If worlds are fruit are apples flat?

Or like.

[obsidian dagger]

randomly looking at SMBC and found one that basically sums up Azazel, a Mystery I made up: https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/2011-05-13

[restive ridge]

The end of the Nobilis movie will involve everyone dancing, after the first few steps there's a cutaway to Lord Entropy, now in jail after the climax of the movie. He initially sits gloomily on a chair before his foot starts tapping faster and faster, until he says "Ah what have I got to lose!" and starts dancing too before cutting away back to the main cast.

[fleet harbor]

It's been almost two weeks and I can't stop thinking about this. Dogs are either a Fallen estate, because of unconditional love, or a Serpent estate, because of how dogs have the sheer joy of dog-being

[frank light]

Dogs are a mimic estate but it’s the one estate that isn’t corrosive because you see

The mimic is a very good boy

[vestal mist]

It is corrosive

There is no force in the universe more destructive than a friendly dog

[frank light]

I’m glad you liked my serpent gk

[fleet harbor]

Dogs are not an estate at all, like magic. Nobody knows where they come from or what their deal is, aside from being good.

[frank light]

Who just saw laika and said “omg dog”

Yeah that’s perfect

“Woah…….dog.”

[fleet harbor]

Cosmic mysteries, like magic, and dogs

[fleet harbor]

Yeah, Perfect Snake, 10/10, no notes

[frank light]

Serpent of Honey n stuff

[fleet harbor]

See I know it's accurate because that's my reaction to my dog all the time

"Bear! You're a dog!"

[frank light]

Yeah

That’s my reaction to seeing my dog too

It really is peak dog

“Woah is that a dog? Omg it is!”

[tall jolt]

I was thinking btw a Noble of Reflections might be fun

[candid compass]

Universal dot reaction

[restive ridge]

Dot

[narrow tartan]

Are dog's the true thing? In this essay...

[obsidian dagger]

https://xkcd.com/231/

xkcd: Cat Proximity

Yes you are! And you're sitting there! Hi, kitty!

[candid compass]

Yeah that

[fleet harbor]

Cats however are not the true thing

[frank light]

Dog deceiver cat strategist

[restive ridge]

Cats are the falsest thing

You ask a Deceiver if there's anything in Creation that isnt part of the beautiful underlying truth and they raise up a cat and say they have no idea where these things are from

[narrow tartan]

Had an idea. That then developed a little more. And decided it was too morbid

[narrow tartan]

Perhaps. Cneph was a bear

[narrow tartan]

Strategist who hid away all their love for the world before going on to viciously betray those they had lovdd.

Gets put down. New version emerges for that cast aside love

[restive ridge]

Thats a truth nuke

[obsidian dagger]

I'm thinking about Miquella again, and... something about his charm seems distinctly reminiscent of a Keeper of Garden's Toxic. I don't know exactly why, but... probably because, if you look at who he actually charms, it's frequently done in an attempt to help that person?

[frank light]

It’s partially what leads me to think of allegory

Because “magic that’s supposed to help people but now accidentally harms them” is a listed example for allegory

And allegory was said to be the stat that USED to be gardener in glitch for the fallen angels

The link between the two is real

[obsidian dagger]

I want to give Empyrean Miquella the Fallen Angel set, which does include Allegory. But it's complicated by the fact that Shadow of the Erdtree is definitely him taking a Black arc, and Fallen Angels don't do black arcs.

I'm also thinking, relatedly, about Needle Knight Leda. And... hm. Which arc is most likely to have a servant who is ||so rabidly loyal to you that they kill your other servants out of paranoid fears those other servants are going to betray you or that they aren't faithful enough?||

[frank light]

Honestly he could also be going on an allegory arc, no?

Or an orange arc, at least

Though you could also say that the black arc is for the elden ring protagonist

[narrow tartan]

What would happen if a character goes on an arc they shouldn't

[obsidian dagger]

"Symbolically shedding your mortal flesh in order to become a divine concept" is pretty Black-looking to me.

[frank light]

True but does he struggle with an opposite number, being swallowed up by fate, and struggling to become the metaphorical light of a miracle?

However, if you want a black arc
There is another stat set that has primordial and allegory

The Wild

[candid compass]

Depends on what you mean by shouldn't

[obsidian dagger]

The opposite number would be either you, the player character, or St. Trina, his "other half" who he ||previously had but divested himself of in order to become more divine||. And regarding being swallowed by fate and becoming the light of a miracle... very yes.

[restive ridge]

Hmmm

I say thats maybe Gatekeeper or Keeper of Gardens or some other stuff I forgot

[obsidian dagger]

And the thing is that the other Empyreans clearly want Fallen, because both Malenia and Messmer very obviously have Wounded Angel and probably also Allegory?

[frank light]

Mhm mhm

[obsidian dagger]

And... Shadow of the Erdtree spoilers but ||I kind of feel like Divine Miquella wants totally different arcs from when he was an Empyrean||.

[candid compass]

Miquella is very Rules to me

[obsidian dagger]

He would not mind Creature of the Light, probably, but I'm not sure if that's an old thing or a new thing.

[candid compass]

Holy and Architect maps quite well for his brand of mind control I think

[obsidian dagger]

He's Rules in some ways but Fallen in others. His entire thing is about providing salvation to those that are rejected by the orthodoxy.

And in the course of his Black arc (which happens offscreen, but you do get to see it), ||as he abandons his flesh, he also abandons his love. And this is called out by (a ghost of) an NPC as the one thing he absolutely should not abandon because without it, how will he help those who cannot be saved? (This is when he separates himself from St. Trina, implying she is his love, or is at least connected.)||

||It's wildly unclear if she was always a separate entity, or just a separate aspect he could wear prior to their separation.||

[obsidian dagger]

Interestingly, this implies that Miquella is on a Black arc where ||he represents Compassion, and his opposite number represents Love. Which is the enemy because Compassion, in Miquella's conception, is intrinsically unbiased, and Love is definitionally biased and requires you to care about people and show them favoritism?|| It's a bit odd and interesting.

[narrow tartan]

Love is a Servitude effect

[obsidian dagger]

Are you allowed to apply the Creature of Delirium disguise bonus to having a large and varied wardrobe full of the newest fashions? Because I'm thinking about Nina from Artiswitch again, and how badly I want her to be a Creature of Delirium because it almost perfectly fits.

[frank light]

Yea

[obsidian dagger]

I want more people to watch Artiswitch because Nina seems like such a good example of a Creature of Delirium but I want second opinions because maybe she's not?

She also gives off Prophet vibes. Her schtick is that she runs a mysterious fashion boutique which people accidentally stumble into from random doorways and such, and then they find one particular item that calls to them. She then talks to them a bit and asks if they'd like to peer deeper, plunging them into a surrealistic music video where they get to see, in semi-metaphoric form, what their life would be like if they got whatever they desire most. Then they wake up outside with that item.

[obsidian dagger]

Here's a strange question: what arc is Wallace from Wallace and Grommit?

[fleet harbor]

Gatecrasher

[obsidian dagger]

Gatecrasher does come with an assortment of funny gadgets. Although I feel like it's less likely to make those gadgets turn around and hurt you? I was going to ask what his Hidden World is but... I think, bizarely, it's handymen. It's a secret world of handymen and Wallace lacks actual all-around knowledge of how to fix basic issues in people's homes, so he compensates with strange inventions.

[fleet harbor]

Yep

[obsidian dagger]

I just remembered my songs as arcs project. And it feels twee to pick a song because its title matches one of the arc's features... but also Obsessions does kind of seem like it could fit Creature of the Light. A lot of the lyrics are very experiential and red.

[restive ridge]

https://bsky.app/profile/yuriartillery.bsky.social/post/3lquoz35hkk2c

[narrow tartan]

I have returned!

[magic mason]

Heloooo!!!

[narrow tartan]

Coriander Hasp as a member of the NRA

[magic mason]

He would

[restive ridge]

He would fucking love igt

[narrow tartan]

Abhorrent Weapon in form of rolling boulder trap

[vivid wraith]

that's the stone cain killed abel with

[narrow tartan]

Ooh.

I was gonna joke about Skeleton Ball

From Dark Souls 3. And the idea of, "Rocks Fall and Everyone Dies"

[tall jolt]

Stoned

[narrow tartan]

Hmm. Orange arcs are really weird.

Because they are all about the relationship between your story and the world.

Like most sickly arcs have something that distances you. Star Quality has you violating Creation's personal space

[narrow tartan]

Hmmm. Fighting high aspect nobles by using really impressive magical skills to do the conventionally impossible

[magic mason]

Magic in general can be pretty nice against gods

It probably won’t help that much

But a big magical or superior skill, some bonds and afflictions? Could do some good work

[narrow tartan]

Yeah. And. Less thinking that you could use a magical skill to beat asprct as much as leverage magical skill to force a power to spend a miracle point to punch you

Was thinking about Eide, Talent, and Aspect

[narrow tartan]

You know that Iolithae Septimian is the pinnacle of Deceiverhood because everyone dislikes her.

Do you know how annoying you have to be for everyone to spend the effort to overcome Sealed's generic likeability?

[vivid wraith]

That's not true, she said it herself that
Everybody loves her

and just look around! it has to be true

[magic mason]

its a very powerful aura

[restive ridge]

Also bceause she is the embodiment of Deceiverness

Like first thing you think of "Hmmm what should be the word-powerset for a being who believes all reality to be a lie?" IS the Lies of Deceivername

(And Iolithae does it in a far more interesting way than I think this particular thoughtline would in most peoples head, she's sorta of an intentional piece of game design to prevent this shortcircuit I suspect)

[vivid wraith]

huge glow-up from 2e tbh

[restive ridge]

"Observation is a form of violence"
-Jenna K Moran
"Levelling up is an act of evil"
-Toby Fox

Much to think about....

[fleet harbor]

This is the one lie she cannot make true

[narrow tartan]

I Love Iilothae turned out to be a bit of a flop.

[fleet harbor]

"Everyone loves me" everyone now loves Iolithae, but also still hates her

If anything they hate her more because they pay more attention to her

[narrow tartan]

Dragon who choked to death on owm fumes

DAng it. Had a dream about a family of strategists.

And. Never pinned down exact details.

Of who each of them was. Or. What their bane should be.

I really like the "Dragon who choked to death on own fumes" idea for a strategist

Or some variant of that. Too exhausted to come up with new ideas at the moment

[fleet harbor]

Me, sitting next to the strategist who just said that: i also have powers my powers are mostly related to keeping an orderly timetable

[narrow tartan]

Huh. Strategists right now probably the most people like Excrucians

In how they relate to the world

[vivid wraith]

how so?

[narrow tartan]

Like. Just. Was thinking about all the different factions and mental illness. And my own experience with depression.

Strategist leaving the war necause they end up helping people with depression

Oof. Strategist who falls in with a bunch of supportive depressed people. And. Like. Struggles with the "Everyone but me is valid" bit

Oh no. Strategist rediscovers will to destroy world because their new friend group fought back against the "everyone but me is valid"

[vivid wraith]

oops

[narrow tartan]

Wish I could turn my ideas into stories

[narrow tartan]

Roughly what genee does each splat exist in?

Angels are magical girls

True Gods have lit rpg vibes.

Mimics are spy stories

I think Rulers are in dating sims but have to split the spotlight with Gamers

Rulers and Gamers are in high school/college.

[magic mason]

Jenna said fallen are indie tragedies
Gamelords are portal fantasy, and rulers would do something Magey

In that one blogpost

[narrow tartan]

Ah. My mistake

[magic mason]

Oh I wasn’t saying you were making a mistake

I was just bringing it up

[narrow tartan]

No its all good.

[narrow tartan]

I wonder. Do I qualify as soggy?

Hmm. Rlyeh or Cthulhu as a true god.

[frank light]

Nobilis game taking place after the death of the sun

It’s not like the third age ended or anything it’s just a sunless post apoc where you need to relight mini suns to keep the world defined

[narrow tartan]

nodnod

[vivid wraith]

noticed that Creature of Fable mentions "a strand of the unreal" in Chuubo's

which i guess is fitting for both warmains and gamers

[narrow tartan]

Does.
Vastness, Holy, and Hunter have a sufficient amount of imperialness? What do I even mean by imperialness

[vivid wraith]

I can definitely see Vastness and Holy together

Vastness and Hunter is a little trickier

[fleet harbor]

This would be cool

Good way to have a more kinda ... structured, mission-based game? If you wanted to do that.

[narrow tartan]

Vastness and Hunter? Dear sir, what do you mean?

[vivid wraith]

idk they're like...

Hunter is weird tricks and force of personality, vastness is You Are Godzilla

i think if Hunter sticks mostly to mortal form activities i can picture it more easily

[fleet harbor]

Hunter is very, "this is my story, and you will behave accordingly"

The default interpretation of that in Nobilis is "you are the fox and I am the hunter" but it could vary, and like for Rinley in Chuubo's it's more, "I'm a creature of weird tall tales"

[narrow tartan]

nodnod

The. This is a reintroduction of the divine cat idea. Who I conceived of as Imperators because that is a known niche

[fleet harbor]

Vastness is kinda ... magic puberty?

Or at least Child of the Ash is

Vastness might be less so

[narrow tartan]

The cats use fast and tough for their shed scale.

Armored Cheetahs

[fleet harbor]

XD

The armored cheetah is good

[vivid wraith]

oh okay it does fit for cats

[narrow tartan]

Im like. I worry that with Holy, Hunter, Vastness, and Sealed they would need to use Sealed for Imperial Miracle.

[fleet harbor]

That is a cool lineup

Something something Holy and Hunter for the cat proximity effect

[narrow tartan]

Sealed as well is meant to add to that vibe.

Like. You really get why they were trying to kill and eat that angel

[frank light]

yeah!

[grand knot]

Pandora's fire

• Warms you up
• Gives nice sleep
• Helps visualize stories
• Bothers if you don't listen

[frank light]

fun

[grand knot]

Actually

• Bothers if you're discourteous

[frank light]

Y’know on this topic

This would be a really funny game to do with a Fallen Angel imperator.

Because they uh, have Salvation.

The one time use of Salvation, being used to create a fire that might make enough light for the world to shine on

[obsidian dagger]

Congratulations on reinventing Chuubo’s from first principles.

[fleet harbor]

To be tbh I'm sorta imagining Kingdom Death but with less pointless violence and cheesecake

Or like ... okay hear me out

[frank light]

Technically yes

[fleet harbor]

Structure it as like a Banner or a Following of Creational beings moving across the Void

[frank light]

Oh?

[fleet harbor]

They need to light a sun and create a temporary encampment to survive

Collect resources, rest, etc

But if they stay in one place

[frank light]

I think because this is Nobilis I would want to keep the fact that the tree is here

And entropy

And the locust court

[fleet harbor]

Could be climbing around a darkened tree?

[frank light]

I think I still want it to be like

On earth

With a couple other places faintly lit up still

[fleet harbor]

But yeah my thought is like hunter-gatherer powers

Nomads

[frank light]

A bunch of major cities have been lit up, a lot of major chancels are intact, and shits scary rn

But also entropy is still himself

Maybe that prophecy came in clutch and he’s been distributing the light

[fleet harbor]

To stay in one place is to draw the attention of dangerous forces

[frank light]

I’m thinking that everything that isn’t Lit is covered in Outside/Lacunae

Cus the vibes I wanna do is less nomadic
And more dark souls/elden ring

[fleet harbor]

Right

[narrow tartan]

Dark Souls

[frank light]

Yeah

[fleet harbor]

More like Dork Souls

Ya Dork

[frank light]

Ever soul
Has its dark

[fleet harbor]

Every Karen is a dork

[frank light]

Plus it’s fun to lean into “people outside the light don’t realize they don’t exist yet”

“Life, prosaically, does go on.”

[fleet harbor]

This does sound like it could be concurrent with Chuubo's really

[frank light]

Weird Outside shit-yeah

Like uh

It might be

[fleet harbor]

A storyline set on Earth

[frank light]

Which would be funny

[narrow tartan]

I saved a random post lile that

[fleet harbor]

In the Chuubo's version of the continuity

[frank light]

“Ah shit the new sun is like 15”

But like

Yeah that would be the vibes

And it wouldn’t be BAD vibes right? You could do some weird shit with that

And of course sprinkle a fun roster of excrucians in to be villains

[narrow tartan]

But. In Dark Souls... Is Humanity the potential for Humans to reclaim divinity?

[fleet harbor]

Maybe?

I think the big takeaway from Dark Souls for me is that

Fuck

[narrow tartan]

Just. IIRC it is closely linked with what humans are. And. It does weirdness

[fleet harbor]

"Death isn't a threat, it's the cherry on top"

[candid compass]

It's just an inherent quality of people

And it links them to the Dark to an extent

[fleet harbor]

The Age of Dark is the unknown future

[frank light]

The true annihilation will be the annihilation of anything meaning anything at all.
Nonexistence has begun to sweep across the world in a great tidal wave

And I think near the edges of the world

Parts of it might just be GONE

Welken rited essentially

Swallowed up by the nothingness
Impossible to bring back

[fleet harbor]

We simply do not know what the Age of Dark is like, but putting it off out of fear just makes everything worse

[candid compass]

Yeah

[frank light]

Anyway I also have silly excrucian ideas for this

[candid compass]

Dark Souls is ultimately about accepting the unknown and that things end
Instead of desperately trying to prolong how things are

[frank light]

This has been rotating

[fleet harbor]

And insofar as humanity is tied to the Dark, it could be a capacity for death, reinvention, divinity, or any number of other things

[fleet harbor]

My hot take is make Robin a major antagonist :D

[frank light]

I would want to have an excrucian of each time as a villain

And a mimic imperator and their powers could be

Interesting

[narrow tartan]

Ruler desperate to not let humanity ascend

[fleet harbor]

Linking the Fire is both a Ruler and Gamer answer to the problem

Which makes sense insofar as the two are mutually complementary

Dark Souls does have a lot of Nobilis imagery, tho

Ancient dragons of the dark have Serpent vibes

[frank light]

Im defaulting to fallen imperator for this but tbh all the imperators are so coool

[narrow tartan]

Oh good. I contributed

[obsidian dagger]

I'm thinking about... I don't know. This probably isn't what the darkness in Dark Souls is or means or does, but like... the capacity to do small things. Yes, you can reshape mountains with your gestures, but this gives you the ability to dance without reshaping mountains. To be part of a crowd or a group, rather than drawing all eyes to you and inherently standing out. I don't know if this makes sense.

[fleet harbor]

Mortality, it sounds like

[obsidian dagger]

The power to interact with other people and not intrinsically change their lives, maybe.

[obsidian dagger]

Basically, yes, but just... viewed from an interesting angle. Which is of course making me think Actual thoughts because I think about Actuals too often but there does still seem to be some kind of connection?

Become Somebody/Visage makes it very easy for an Actual to change the lives of anyone they interact with, and does not in any way help them not change the lives of people they interact with.

[fleet harbor]

This is sorta a running theme in Nobilis re: the concept of hubris

There are things a person, just talking and behaving like a person, can accomplish that are impossible to do in any other way

And one of those things is "nothing"

[frank light]

Been thinking about a good excrucian roster

And right now my head is “general grievous type warmain, existential threat deceiver, and childlike gremlin strategist”

“I glitched at 15” is a tried and tested strategy for creating great mass murderers

[fleet harbor]

Are we talking Tartakovsky Grievous

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIj7gIDFDe4

[frank light]

Yeah

That one

That’s the one

[fleet harbor]

As we should be :D

[frank light]

Terrifying and chaotic

Main thing I struggle with is a good pstate for a deceiver

I want them to be an existential threat like Iolithae but

I don’t want to just copy Iolithae

[fleet harbor]

Make them a deceiver born from the killing of the sun

"The darkness spread by Deceivername"

[frank light]

Maybe

“The darkness of Deceivername”

[magic mason]

Maybe go for something a bit more cinematic?

Something that looks like an overriding aesthetic and acts in ways that seem to override local reality to do what they want

[frank light]

And it can have a property embodying “lies”

I want to have fun ways of making a deceiver scary and playing with “of course reality is an illusion. Can’t you see it?”

[vivid wraith]

"i can do anything"

[frank light]

Yeah

[fleet harbor]

• is all-consuming
• renders those who comprehend it insensate
• is inexorable

[frank light]

The Witnessing of deceivername

[fleet harbor]

Hm, wild thought

What happens if someone Flower Rites a pstate

[frank light]

Shoot

Uhhh

We don’t know

[fleet harbor]

Comedy

[frank light]

Probably nothing since pstates don’t have spirits

Or like

Exist

They’re a term for a thing a deciever does rather than an actual estate

But I’ve theorized that it just makes them take damage

Heavily

[magic mason]

The alternative is that it becomes a ritual attack on the Decievers

Yeah

[frank light]

Oh here’s something

The Presence of Decievername

[magic mason]

Decievernames Perfect Life…
…Is exactly how they wish it to be
…Cannot exist within Creation
… Is black and white
…Withers at sunrise.
…Is unstoppable and overriding

Here is my hat in the ring

[frank light]

Maybe

[magic mason]

I started from “is exactly how I wish it to be” as a existential threat property and worked backwards

[frank light]

Anyway because warmains can just be like that

Test of Strife for the warmain

And honestly “dying of darkness” is funny for the strategist

[magic mason]

Yeah

[obsidian dagger]

I'm imagining them turning shadows into pits which things fall into, but they have to be careful lest they fall into their own shadow.

[frank light]

Yeah

Shit like that

There’s a real chance that in complete darkness they just

go out

[narrow tartan]

I think. I am the kind of person who would feed themselves to an actual or deceiver

[frank light]

Honestly maybe some places are dark enough that all that’s left are the deeps

And monstrous things can crawl out from there

Can you tell deltarune has affected my brain?

[vivid wraith]

heheheh

[frank light]

Now suddenly the efforts of imperators to KEEP deepscrucians from rising is even more important than ever

[narrow tartan]

I mean if this is dark souls... Is it worth it?

[fleet harbor]

Does this drive them to hunt beings that create/preserve light?

[frank light]

For a strategist? Yeah
Especially on principle

[frank light]

I mean yeah

It’s nice for things to keep living

It’s okay to keep striving to live

No matter how bleak it is

[frank light]

Yeah

[patent tiger]

So true

[grand knot]

What estate would you all have?

[patent tiger]

Probably one of the ones from the characters in my Glitch game who have been accused of being self-inserts

[frank light]

Parasites then?

[patent tiger]

Or Villainy, or Hope

[frank light]

Nah you’re parasites now

Get wormed

[patent tiger]

I'll take that

Worm beam go

[fleet harbor]

I know what my pstate would be

Alaen assigned it to me a long time ago

"The media references of gkathellar"

[fleet harbor]

Real Prince hours

[restive ridge]

Essentially shooting every actor for a screenplay and probaly giving an identity crisis for the author but the manuscript still exists is I think was my conception a few years ago

[fleet harbor]

I just think it would be funny

[restive ridge]

Oh dont get me wrong it would be HILARIOUS

[fleet harbor]

Maybe it doesn't actually do anything but the Deceiver still knows

[restive ridge]

Staring at Coriander and calling him a lil piss boy coward until I blow up his gimmick

[fleet harbor]

"Did. Did I just get flower rited?"

[patent tiger]

I'm always engaging in Prince hours

[fleet harbor]

My Liege

[patent tiger]

Bugs are lovely creatures and you should let them eat you

I'll even sing a song about it

[fleet harbor]

What is my estate

[frank light]

Yeah

[patent tiger]

No, who is my estate, what is the property being targeted by a flower rite

[fleet harbor]

Wait, a flower rite? Where?

[restive ridge]

Localised entirely within this kitchen?

[fleet harbor]

The correct answer was "first base" but I suppose the kitchen could itself be on first base

I gotta read more of Summerland

[restive ridge]

Impostors

[fleet harbor]

Speaking of baseball and Nobilis

[frank light]

…oh I have a new deceiver idea now

The Light of Deceivername

[fleet harbor]

Also can someone who's in the Ninuan discord do me a favor and ask Jenna if Summerland has been an influence on her work at any point

[restive ridge]

o7

[frank light]

…is not warm
…is not cold
…is true
…reveals secrets
…provides bleak comfort

Using persona to create miniature false suns

It is not warm and it is not cold

And also they can do Iolithae shit

[fleet harbor]

Suggestion: ... looks upon the truth

[frank light]

Hmmm

Nah I think I really love the idea that it just is a no holds barred Truth generator

It’s terrifying

[fleet harbor]

Well, I mean it in the sense of like, being able to say, "this is true, this isn't true" by looking at or away from things

What the light turns away from ceases to be real, that sort of thing

I guess that's implied by Sacrifice, though

[frank light]

Yeah that’s sorta the vibe I’m going for

[grand knot]

Getting the funny idea of this maybe making you count as asleep while awake, you're just sleepwalking. And need to figure out how to make yourself count as awake again
Maybe like this you're more vulnerable to stories

I say someone "dreaming" got cut, and they need to resist or change the course of the dream

[narrow tartan]

What. Sort of things would be assigned to me?

Estate, bane, P-state

[narrow tartan]

Please.

[obsidian dagger]

I would be happy to oblige but... you aren't a fictional character. You're a real person.

So trying to fit you into those narrative slots is infinitely harder. Especially when, like... I dunno. They're kind of self-declarative? Insofar as they make sense to assign to a real person at all.

[grand knot]

Want dolls? Reptiles? Dragons? Fluffy fiction? All could be basis for this stuff

[narrow tartan]

Thats fair.

[restive ridge]

Going insane

[obsidian dagger]

Creature of Delirium is probably not Winter.

Creature of Delirium is, despite everything else, still Red, and so more sensory and experiential than Winter's still silence.

I also wonder if Gatekeeper shouldn't be Heart, because the thunderskin is the skin of the world. Or possibly even Wounded Angel, but that fits Knock a bit too well.

[narrow tartan]

I think I thought of those things more as magical skills of a sort

I've had idea for an Angel and a Strategist who practice Edge.

Also. Lionsmith and The Colonel are Warmains in a romantic relationship...

[obsidian dagger]

I need to get back to cultsim, finish more endings, and try book of hours…

The aspects are kind of like skills, but also elements.

[narrow tartan]

The Angel of Bullets. Imperator of Guns, the Horizon and ???

And an unnamed Strategist in the form of a cartoon character dying of censorship.

I never got an ending but I have read spoilers.

[restive ridge]

My justification is that Delirium quenches the fire in other's hearts

Gatekeeper is Heart because it is what keeps the Wake safe from the Worms

[grand knot]

Anywhere I can see the arcs summed up?

[magic mason]

The book of golden hours has very long explanations of their thematics and mechanics but uhh

I’m sure someone here could do a breakdown

We really do need the jennagames YouTuber

[obsidian dagger]

oh no. I love to infodump...

[obsidian dagger]

Delirium doesn't quench. It takes. But the fire still exists, in the form of the weymark.

[frank light]

slightly unrelated but i found it really fun that sovereignty in golden hours specifically says "losing your experience or being overfilled with it"

[obsidian dagger]

hm. Fuck. What if I was a jennagames youtuber who made long video explanations of every arc. Probably starting with a long description of what immortal/frantic/sickly means, and then of what each color is fundamentally about.

[obsidian dagger]

They also note that for most Creatures of Delirium, only one of those things really makes sense. Presumably there's a specific example which really looked like the overflowing thing.

Anyway Creature of Delirium should be Moth.

[vivid wraith]

The arcs (like, sequences of quests/events) or the arcs (miraculous attributes)?

[grand knot]

The arcs people talk about in chuubo

[vivid wraith]

yep okay gotcha

[obsidian dagger]

...I'm thinking about the order in which I would need to explain things. I think what I would want to do for an explainer video is to first explain the sort of "aboutness" of each color, then explain XP actions, then Issues, then the Immortal/Frantic/Sickly trichotomy because I like being able to point to Science, Faith, and Sorcery, and from there segue into the nature of the miraculous. Then I could make a video on each arc attribute.

[vivid wraith]

here are sixteen of them

for lengthier explanations, click each arc in here
https://karmachameleon.github.io/arcs/

[grand knot]

Thanks

[candid compass]

for more indepth stuff, you really gotta read Jenna's blog and/or Book of Golden Hours

BoGH especially is probably the most up to date thing we have on things

[grand knot]

Huh, is memetic not in the git?

[vivid wraith]

It's called Persona there

or Star Quality

welcome aboard Pandora i'm so sorry

[candid compass]

Kaiju is likewise listed as Child of the Ash

people also sometimes call things by the stat names they are in Glitch instead of the arc names, for another layer of confusion 😛

[fleet harbor]

Also all of these have different names in Glitch/Nobilis 4e

Ninja’d

[patent tiger]

I'm people

I do it because Glitch was the first time I saw them, but I will say that I do it to increase confusion

I've got a reputation to uphold, after all

[candid compass]

I also usually use the Glitch stat names yeah

[obsidian dagger]

...sudden realization: Green arcs are about becoming something different. Some aspect of you is changing. And the key thing to understand, which I just realized, is that, looking at Called Away and the Island of King Death issue from GMD, changing location is fundamentally the same type of adjectival transformation as changing form, according to this logic.

Fundamentally, becoming a person who's a giant snake and becoming a person inside of a giant floating castle are the same kind of becoming.

And now that I've come to that revelation, it explains a lot. Why is Creature of Fable able to travel between the boundaries? Because they can change surface-level descriptors, and one of those is "where you are right now". Why is Wounded Angel able to appear to those in need? Because suffering changes them, and changing your shape growing wings out of suffering is the same kind of thing as changing your location and appearing to those in need.

This is also why (uninteresting) imprisonment is a Wound! Not just because it's something bad you're preventing, but because Wounds are impositions which limit your ability to freely describe your character, and imprisonment limits your ability to describe your location.

I feel like I might be losing my mind, and/or like I've stumbled onto something world-shaking.

[grand knot]

Strategist dying from cognition
Her voice is clear, her senses superhuman
Yet, what she says is misunderstood, and sensory input only helps you create an imperfect aproximation of the world, with blindspots and illusions
Whenever she destroys something, it becomes a mirage, misunderstanding, etc
She usually dies from a grave miscalculation, a murder over a falsehood, or just having her most recent actions melt into an illusion or contradiction

[obsidian dagger]

I ought to write down some of my ideas as proper scripts and then deliver them to a camera and put them on youtube instead of just walking around giving long explanations to empty air.

[grand knot]

"The world is supposed to be a pile of falsehoods. Its flaw is that we are forced to accept some as truths, we have a desire for eternal truth inscribed in us"

[grand knot]

Huh renegade arc looks cool

[candid compass]

it's Eide, one of the stats Strategists also have

[grand knot]

Sentimental is cool too

[obsidian dagger]

I think that if I were to become The Jennagames Youtuber, the videos I would want to make (in the order I would want to post them) would be:

• A basic introduction to the concepts at hand, possibly merged with the next subject in a single video. This would talk about stuff like what an XP action or a quest even is.
• A basic introduction to the concept of the 8 colors.
• A video on each color, describing its general "aboutness", its quest set, its color of campaign, and the XP actions of that color (which do not 1-to-1 match the XP actions available by default in that campaign). Probably I would want to do XP action -> chibi-quest -> quest set -> campaign in each video, gradually zooming out? Unless the XP actions should be separated out and talked about later?
• A video about Issues, and what they are. It's tempting to include each color of issue with the relevant color summary but I'm not sure.
• A video about the Miraculous and the Immortal/Frantic/Sickly trichotomy.
• Finally, the 24 videos on individual miraculous arcs.

[obsidian dagger]

sorry about the walls of text.

...but "location is just another property like any other, and changing where something is fundamentally counts as the same sort of transformation as changing what something is" feels like it's glued my third eye open. (It's why Creatures of Delirium can either transform or banish those whose weymarks they claim — because those are the same sort of transformation!)

...I need to figure out when in my lecture series to talk about Wounds because they're important. And they need their own video.

[grand knot]

Why is creature of delirium about extracting properties?

[fleet harbor]

Creature of Delirium is kinda Ursula the Sea Witch

You take away some fundamental piece of someone, and reshape them to your liking

Metaphorically speaking, it relates to having power over another person

To take their heart, their voice, their freedom, their life

And mold what remains

[frank light]

all three storyteller arcs are about being a transformative experience

and uh
delirium's is about taking an experience from someone

[fleet harbor]

Jenna’s novella The Fable Of The Swan centers on Theft/Creature of Delirium

[frank light]

yeah

oh man i dont know if i posted about the randal player character for a walking fields module thing i was working on in here

or maybe i did

[fleet harbor]

And it is a story about how, when someone puts their heart in the hands of another, that other gains incalculable power to hurt and control them

And that is Creature of Delirium

It’s the power to exploit trust

Even trust unwillingly granted

If that makes sense

[fleet harbor]

You did, yeah

[frank light]

hell yeah

i need to work on his playbook more deeply

hes such a fucking loser but in the funniest way possible

[fleet harbor]

I will note that (vague spoilers for the end of Fable but only sorta) ||the other, secret side of Creature of Delirium is the power to reshape one’s self||

[obsidian dagger]

Artiswitch also has a very Creature of Delirium main character, who is very different from Ursula because she uses her power to heal and not to harm.

[frank light]

right here were my Randal stats

"Apologies -1. This has never worked out"

[fleet harbor]

A Creature of Delirium can make the choice ||to turn their talent for manipulation inwards and become a better person||

[frank light]

indeed!

one of its key abilities is the ability to either make someones emotional load worse

or provide catharsis

[obsidian dagger]

Yeah. And... in Artiswitch, ||there's one very notable point where the main character arguably does harm someone via her powers (and/or that person uses her powers to self-harm). And this makes the main character miserable because she really, really didn't want that to happen!||

[fleet harbor]

From a “these are all puberty versions of these powers” perspective, Creature of Delirium is growing up and discovering how much control you have over others

[grand knot]

So keeper of garden is power of a job, and sentimental is power of friendship

[obsidian dagger]

...I hadn't seen it that way but that makes sense.

[fleet harbor]

Does that all help

[obsidian dagger]

All of the Red arcs, but especially Creature of Delirium, have something to say about perception as violence, I think?

[grand knot]

Huh self-made seems to have a focus on communication and minions

[frank light]

impresario is
very funny

[fleet harbor]

The Glitch interpretations of the arcs can, I think, help to understand them, since those are sort of ... throwing around more raw power? And often in a more aggressive, conflict-oriented way?

The Chuubo's interpretations are in some ways the versions for a softer world.

Sentimental, for instance, is Flore: the power to leverage one's connections to particular material things to shape their destinies in ways useful to the miraculous being doing the shaping

It's, among other things, a god's powers to select a Chosen One

[frank light]

or discover the miraculous power in a sword

[obsidian dagger]

It's Frantic Purple. It's the ability to say "you are important. You matter." to someone or something and have that be true regardless of what the world has to say about it.

[frank light]

i like that for strategists, even if its their most corruptive power

...the wording is still that it is unnatural when they do it

strategists are inherently unnatural

[fleet harbor]

Flore has some of the most raw power of any miraculous attribute

[candid compass]

Flore is very powerful, yeah

though you need to be very good at it to reliably access those really powerful options

[fleet harbor]

It allows a being to have powers that are completely out-of-context, and to basically just will things to happen

[obsidian dagger]

I mean, all of the purple arcs are harmful to some extent. According to Nobilis, loving someone is an act of violence against them.

[candid compass]

well yeah but love is also illegal for the Nobilis 😛

many a treasure has gotten punished in stead of their Noble

[fleet harbor]

And it's worth remembering that the two classes of being with Flore are Nobles (created for war) and Strategists (born to war)

[candid compass]

yeah but it is also
the power of a florem are not something given by the world
you are raised up and exalted purely because this Strategist likes you and/or sees potential in you

[obsidian dagger]

And if you try to get around that? To love someone without hurting them? You get the Fallen, who lack Purple arcs.

[candid compass]

it's a very personal thing

the power comes only from your connection to each other

[fleet harbor]

It is both the kindest, most loving miraculous attribute, and one of the one most disposed towards sheer efficacy

[candid compass]

Flore is the power of love and friendship

[vivid wraith]

i don't remember that bit

[candid compass]

That doesn't always mean its good though

[obsidian dagger]

I mean, it's implied by what the Purple arcs do.

[fleet harbor]

Oh! You know who’s got Flore? The villain of Yggdra Union.

[obsidian dagger]

Look at Toxic for the clearest example, but all of the purple arcs to some extent are about that. They're about how you can change people or things by loving them, in ways which they might not be able to consent to.

[fleet harbor]

Or, first arc villain

Also the Exile in KotOR 2

[candid compass]

Exile is definitely Purple

not sure if Flore or Architect though

[fleet harbor]

Maybe both

But the Exile is notable for honing specific people into what they need

That’s not necessarily a cruel process

But it’s one that the narrative acknowledges is worth interrogating

And that’s Flore

[candid compass]

I'm mostly unsure because the Exile has more control over their companions than you do with Flore normally

which makes me lean a bit more Architect

[grand knot]

Renegade looks good for mononoke references. Or any other story about dealing with supernatural phenomena/events

"I can just detect you fucking around with what you shouldn't"

[candid compass]

Eide is... a bit weird

[frank light]

Harjade 
Test of Strife

Ability 3
Architect 2
Hunter 6
Monstrous 2
Natural Weaponry
Bond - "I hurt you" (Technique - Nightcraft)

Zazgoia
The Light of Zazgoia

Ability 2
Persona 6
Glorious
Immortal
"I am always given trust"

Visivult 
Dying of Darkness

Lore 7
Wyrd 4
Scylla[Eustena] who is named Unravelling

I'm cooking with my freak villains

[grand knot]

Thinking
Character based on a room with a flame, in the themes of bonds, rest, telling of stories and knowledge, performance of actions such as reading, a soothing craft.

Shimmering flame, shaped shadows

[narrow tartan]

Visivult sounds like a pokemon

[candid compass]

Visi- (Unrivaled)
-vult (Splendor)

[narrow tartan]

Ah a legendary pokemon

[candid compass]

Harja-, -de
[(The) Army's][Light]

Zaz-, -goia
[Threadbare] [Transformation]

[frank light]

yup!

those are the names

[candid compass]

I just like translating Excrucian names 😛

[frank light]

these guys are built like villains so theyre just
built to be terrifying

Zazgoia is up to classic deceiver business (being a sentient cognitohazard and proof that reality is a lie)

visivult is mainly doing Lore shit in the background

and occasionally summoning miraculous daemons

and harjade is

uh

harjade

harjade is i think an untempered warmain

a monstrous THING of shifting shapes and voids still seeking out a thing to become

[narrow tartan]

Coming up with Warmain tests is hard

[frank light]

that is fair

honestly harjade was just me going dead simple as far as tests go

he just kills you

he just tries to kill you

and usually wins

and thats why he has not yet found a thing to temper yet
nothing has been worthy

[ruby ivy]

hmm
depressed warmain seeking something that will make them happy

[narrow tartan]

The colors of Fallen Arcs are interesting.

[narrow tartan]

If there are other types of Imperator in Hell they probably view the Fallen as weirdos.

[obsidian dagger]

Strange question but does anyone have clean access to the little chuubo's color icons (like the purple crook, green lurid snake, etc.)? Or are those images somewhere in the PDF folder I have, and I don't realize it?

[frank light]

i can pull em from the jenna discord cus they have em as emojis

want me to get em?

[restive ridge]

In some of the Nobilis stuff, Jenna quotes Susan Cooper's works as inspiration
In an interview, Chabon says "I was inspired by CS Lewis, Lloyd Alexander, Tolkien and, above all, Susan Cooper"

[fleet harbor]

All of whom I've read!

Makes sense, though

Same origins

Danke

[obsidian dagger]

I would appreciate those icons, yes! I still need to join said discord but. I am trying to make Actual Concrete Plans to be the jennagames youtuber the world apparently needs.

[candid compass]

forgot that one

[obsidian dagger]

Is there some way to cleanly save the images out of discord?

[fleet harbor]

There is but I don't remember it ;_;

I know I've done it tho

[patent tiger]

Right click the emoji and select "open link"

[candid compass]

right click the emoji -> open link -> should have it open in browser now -> save it as an image

[obsidian dagger]

oh that works. Weird, but it works.

[candid compass]

and then you can use an image editor to convert it from webp to png or something

[fleet harbor]

That's also how you can add them to your own servers

[candid compass]

yeah I've stolen emotes that way a couple times

[grand knot]

So how does renegade relate to emptiness?
And impresario/self-made to communication and minions, considering its theme of self-remaking?

[candid compass]

Silver arcs are about being cursed in some way

in Eide, that manifests as something that chases and hunts you

but you are tricky and skilled enough that you can escape usually

[fleet harbor]

They're sort of different fictional angles on the idea of a cursed character

Indomitable/Monstrous is being cursed in a cool fun way

"I'm an extremely awesome vampire who kicks everyone's ass and then acts angsty about it"

Troubled is being cursed by having people out to get you because you're pretty great

"I'm a gentleman thief with a silly detective chasing me"

Accursed is having a curse that genuinely fuckin' sucks

[obsidian dagger]

Silver arcs aren't about the curse. They're about just living your life and surviving. But the arc of the universe bends towards narratives, and the only way "just living through something" helps you grow is if there's a curse interfering with that.

The powers are about the curse. The moment-to-moment experience is about the curse. But, fundamentally, they aren't the story of being cursed. They're the story of living, despite a curse.

Meanwhile I'm struggling to figure out who my target audience is for my chuubo's videos, and in particular how much I need to explain Intentions and Will. Because I was going to say "oh, that's a basic system, I'm just covering the parts of the basics that will allow me to explain arcs, meaning mostly XP-related stuff so that I can talk about the colors"... but I realize I might want a deep dive into what Will and Intentions really are so that I can talk about how certain arcs (all of the green ones especially) interfere with that. But I don't want to just repeat the rules from the book. But also, and this sentence might sound slightly deranged, I'm not sure I understand the metaphysical underpinnings of what Will is.

Is it a thing which exists only at the level of the chthonic? Obstacles are Chthonic, so it stands to reason Intentions would be as well? But the Creature of the Light's Tireless ability granting miraculous Will is not Chthonic; it's Miraculous.

[candid compass]

I still consider that as about the curse tbh

[vivid wraith]

This is what Golden Hours says about Tireless

[obsidian dagger]

That. Huh. I still feel like that ought to be Chthonic, since it's modifying intentions? Combining intentions and miracles happens all the time, though... but usually that's the intention "aiming" or guiding the miracle.

[vivid wraith]

Thanks Divine Warrant
If anyone else said they were the rightful heir to existence, you might think they were megalomaniac, but it was all very clear in the will.

[obsidian dagger]

I think my intuition about what is or isn't Chthonic might be broken. And I think I need to fix that.

[restive ridge]

Rating the Glassmaker's Dragon kids by how much they would enjoy Skibidi Toilet

[obsidian dagger]

I have not watched Skibidi Toilet and know basically nothing about it but I feel like Chuubo would really like it, and by extension Seizhi would like it enough for them to talk about it.

I think that I may need to do an episode on Intentions, Will, and Obstacles just to lay groundwork for later episodes but I'm not sure I fully understand how it works on a metaphysical level. WIll can be seen by things which are not chthonic; Miraculous Will-granting powers are all Miraculous, not Chthonic, as are other Intention-influencing things. That implies that Intentions... exist, in some sense of the word, and aren't just a chthonic game construct. (Which makes sense, seeing as how Reality Syndrome doesn't use them.)

Which in turn suggests that Will exists similarly, but it calls out specifically that "miraculous will" is a misnomer, so maybe it doesn't? ...are there any powers which influence other people's Intentions through means other than obstacle manipulation, or that interact with Will in any sort of unusual or interesting way?

[vivid wraith]

Impresario can create Intentions for others

Although that's noted as a Chthonic thing

[obsidian dagger]

Lend Spirit is also Chthonic.

So... intentions are "real", and not game constructs. I guess that makes sense, because miraculous effects can grant Skills.

...can they?

[candid compass]

miracles can enable you to perform mundane actions, yes

[obsidian dagger]

The situations that create obstacles are "real", but the obstacles themselves are game constructs.

yeah, okay, "intentions, will, skills, and obstacles" might have to be its own video, with the "general introduction" video instead being more completely focused on what XP is and how you get it (since I need to set up that groundwork in order to meaningfully talk about the colors).

Question: do you think it would be better for the first episode to be an episode on XP, quests, and quest arcs? Or an episode on Will, Intentions, and Obstacles?

[grand knot]

Impresario is cool
Transition into a beautiful doll and get as minions other dolls and/or simps

[candid compass]

Architect is quite fun yeah

[fleet harbor]

Personally I see xp as some of the coolest tech in Chuubo’s

[obsidian dagger]

I'm probably going to do it first, and probably touch upon the 8 colors in that same video, because a video just saying "hey there are 8 colors" would be a mistake. Then a video on each color separately, just addressing that color's XP actions, mini-quests, quest arc, and play genre, but not Issues. Then a single video about issues. I'm not sure if there should then be 8 further videos talking about the issues; I'll probably try to make a script for The Issues Video and then see if I feel like it needs to be expanded upon, but probably not.

[obsidian dagger]

I am still befuddled about what to do with Issues. Do I mention them in the first video, because it's about XP actions, and then include the description of the relevant Issues within each color? Or do I do a single video about all the Issues after each individual color?

[vivid wraith]

several of the Issues are linked to specific genres and XP action triggers, right?

I think you can mention issues there before giving them a full breakdown later

[obsidian dagger]

Yes, but I would group them with their colors. So Isolation would be grouped with the Black stuff.

[fleet harbor]

I would merge issues with genres

[obsidian dagger]

It's a horizontal versus vertical slicing thing.

[fleet harbor]

If you talk about genres, and then about issues related to those genres separately, you risk people getting especially lost watching videos out of order

[obsidian dagger]

I was going to, instead of having one video on all the genres of play, and one video on quest sets, have one video on "the purple XP actions, mini-quest, quest set, genre of play, and issues", and one on "the silver XP actions, mini-quest, quest set, genre of play, and issues", and so on. Because I want there to be a single big conclusive video all about What Each Color Means.

[fleet harbor]

I would do a video on each genre, personally

[obsidian dagger]

I think this ultimately comes back to the issue of target audience. Is this for people who want to learn to play? Or for people who want to learn the deeper philosophy behind, say, each color?

[narrow tartan]

I think. Start with stuff thats more learn to play then do deep thematic dives.

[fleet harbor]

You can do both but the fact is that the colors are markers for how to think about stuff rather than clear mechanical concepts

[narrow tartan]

And. I think. Exp actions are close to the top

Of really big things jenna games do.

[obsidian dagger]

You're probably right. It's just that what I really want to do is thematic deep dives.

But I feel like I ought to do more "learn to play" stuff.

[fleet harbor]

Do what brings you joy

[narrow tartan]

Probably. Maybe alternate a little between the two.b

[obsidian dagger]

I also need to figure out how often it's OK to say "this stuff is covered in the books, read the books to learn this" and not explain it myself.

[fleet harbor]

Personally I wouldn't start with Chuubo's at all

I'd start with Nobilis

But I know that's not really a much in your field of interest

[obsidian dagger]

Yeah, I don't know much of anything about Nobilis.

And I don't plan on going deeply into the setting anyhow.

Like... the setting is definitely interesting! And I might end up making videos on it, and on the Glass-Maker's Dragon, at some point. But what I really want to do is provide a long, in-depth explanation and examination of what Green means, or what Sickly means, or how Called Away is Sickly Green and what that means conceptually and how those intersect and what it means about a character if they take Called Away.

[narrow tartan]

Sickly/Frantic/Immortal should come after the colors get looked at in depth

[obsidian dagger]

I agree.

[fleet harbor]

The main reason I'd start with Nobilis is that the mechanics are relatively more straightforward at a glance and establish a lot of rules tropes that Jenna would go on to develop

[obsidian dagger]

I think the best solution is to just... cover the same material twice. So I can do one big philosophical deep dive on each color, but also separately do a smaller video on, say, genres of play. (I think that instead of doing one big video on all the genres of play, or a video on each genre of play totally independently, it makes sense to do four videos on the "paired" genres of play.)

[obsidian dagger]

The thing is that I do not know Nobilis. I do not own Nobilis. And I'm not really interested in teaching about Nobilis, directly.

[fleet harbor]

Yeah, that's fair

[obsidian dagger]

I think that I do, for my first episode, a basic "what is XP, how does it work, what are quests, how do they work" video, which gets a bit into the philosophy of it but not a ton. Then... either in that video or in the next, something which basically says "hey there are 8 colors, they're Important, they will be explained more later but for now just be aware they exist", and also point out that each color has an associated genre of play. Then 4 videos about play-genre pairs (like Pastoral and Gothic), and the XP actions associated with them... wait, no, I need to talk about issues before talking about genres because of genre-specific issues. So maybe the second video is about what Issues are.

Wait, no, because Issues come from out-of-genre XP actions. So I can't talk about Issues without talking about genres, and I can't talk about genres without talking about issues. I guess I have one video talking about "hey, Issues exist, they'll be explained more later" and also the concept of genres?

Not really talking super deeply about what the issues mean individually, but, like... I can talk about the blue issue in the blue video, since I can do the color deep dives after doing all the genre videos because I'll have talked about all the concepts relevant to those (if not the specific quests).

[fleet harbor]

FWIW Issues appear after genres in the book, so assuming that's a serviceable template ...

I do think you could do a video on Pastoral and talk about the default set of Issues and XP actions and whatnot, and then do like 3 more videos on the seven other genres

Or seven more

[obsidian dagger]

They do, but it feels hard to explain genres without explaining issues. That's fine to say "in play, you'll pick up this thing, we'll tell you more about what it means later" but I sort of don't want to do that? Especially since this is intended as supplemental to the books. I also don't want to treat Pastoral as "the absolute default".

So I'd do either one video per genre, or more likely one video per genre pair, because, for instance, Gothic and Pastoral are closely paired. I'd also want to introduce the concepts of the colors before that, because the genres map to colors, although I wouldn't do a deep dive into them until afterwards.

Maybe I have one video talking about "hey, issues exist" before the genres, and then one talking about all the genre-agnostic issues in greater depth afterwards?

[narrow tartan]

So how long do you want each video to be?

[obsidian dagger]

I don't know yet. Probably I'll start by making a script for the first video, seeing how long it turns out, and adjusting from there. I don't want their length to fluctuate too wildly, though, which would also affect how I want to break up or combine topics...

That is a very good question which I do not have an answer to, but I should have an answer, and I'm glad you asked it.

[narrow tartan]

Thats probably a good starting point.

[obsidian dagger]

...I wonder if you could map the Octopath Traveller stories to the eight colors. Probably not; nobody's on Black. I'm just thinking about Alfyn's story as an interesting probably Orange story about going "I am a doctor, I save people's lives, I don't care if they're horrible people who commited crimes in the past and feel no remorse and will go on to commit more crimes in the future because it is not my place to judge" and that being his kind of moral crux.

Opposite numbers are supposed to offer reasonably tempting reasons to turn away from your path, and "don't save the lives of truly awful people" is maybe the most tempting counterargument to "I must save lives".

[magic mason]

My newest sinister Deceiver scheme: Summon an actual inside of someone's Chancel, mostly for fun

I have a mimic-imperial miracle for it lying around, why not use it for some bonding time with an old friend

Creation cannot handle High Potency Excrucians engaging in Healthy Bonding Activities

[obsidian dagger]

I still have no idea whether Actuals are people, phenomena, or p-zombies, or if it varies... but I still greatly enjoy them. Also, glitch pokemon are the closest thing I've found to Actuals and the best metaphor for them and I don't know if that works or requires too much explanation.

[candid compass]

kinda p-zombie I guess

they definitely aren't real people or things, that's kinda the issue

[magic mason]

They are not people besides Sezhi

Some of them are phenomena, others are pzombies, others are locations

My big touchstone for actuals are the world corruptions from fantasy stuff, The Ink Machine from Bendy, and video game creepypasta beings

Like corruption/hallow and crimson in terraria are all very Actual

[obsidian dagger]

The personhood of Billy Sovereign is a canon flexpoint.

also, is Laodemus an Actual? Or is he just a Laodemus?

[magic mason]

Chuubo’s gets wibbly on the metaphysics

But generally an Actual is either a Phenomenon, a Place or a Person that becomes Viral

[obsidian dagger]

I think glitch pokemon are the closest to Actuals because:

• They are created by taking some of the fundamental underpinning of reality, and forcibly perceiving it as an Entity.
• They don't exist as a Thing until they're shoved into a Thing-shaped box, and can be created by forcibly calling up a Thing where none exists.
• They frequently break reality around them, but not in a way which reads as malice or intentionality. It's just... a thing which happens.

[magic mason]

Yeah alright I can see that

[obsidian dagger]

and sometimes they're a massive column of red light with incomprehensible writing next to it, which freezes time eternally as it sings its song.

https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/♀_.

There's a Froofs Actual Mystery whose Name is Segmentation Fault, so the idea of them being "code interpreted wrong" makes sense.

[narrow tartan]

Hmm. I remember something about making actuals into people is surprisingly easy for imperstors. But they dont do ot because it is a bit like putting a hat on a pebble

[obsidian dagger]

random semi-relevant SMBC https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/math-5

[magic mason]

In my head The Fallen Angels either look like a dinky Goetic animal or the type of people who show up on the cover of Nightcore versions of 3 Days Grace songs.

And now I’m imagining those two hanging out

[narrow tartan]

Ananda is so beautiful as to drive those who witness him to murder.

Jasmine Apocynum saw the True Thing and was immediately on board with plan, "Let's kill everyone"

Coincidence: I think not

[fleet harbor]

Turns out the True Thing was just Ananda?

[frank light]

Yeah

It’s why he’s a mimic-

[grand knot]

Maybe Ananda rules over a sort of idea to go forward/cross limits
Eternity is an example
Murder is of course a transgression, a great one at the hands of Cain, and something that makes the deceased cross over/go forward
To look beyond Creation at the True Thing is equivalent

A beauty that draws you towards it