#Jenna Moran Games (Nobilis, Chuubo's, Glitch, WTF)

1 messages · Page 3 of 1

frank light
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In faaaaact lemme pull up a stunt example in Eide

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Sleight of hand is a listed technique for Stunt

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Course there’s also Misdirection which can let you hide anything from a possum by using careful paint to hiding the moon from a town

obsidian dagger
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Yeah the stuff in (the draft of) Troubled works pretty well. I'm just looking at one of the properties being "always [has] a mundane explanation" and thinking about what it would mean to be able to point that at someone's powers. And the most obvious version of that looks a lot like Cut the Soul from Creature of Fable.

frank light
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Ah fair

reef perch
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what's troubled?

obsidian dagger
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Frantic Silver, previously known as Renegade.

reef perch
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i see

obsidian dagger
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(Silver = Accursed)

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a generically good page to have

frank light
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Aka Eide

obsidian dagger
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Actually? If you can apply the property "Seem[s] to do the impossible" to something, that also does really, really weird things sometimes.

vivid wraith
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correct!

obsidian dagger
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Like... this is a shockingly mundane example, because I'm bad at thinking on Nobilis-level power scales, but you should theoretically able to run up a staircase and leave all your pursuers scratching their heads at the bottom, because getting to the second floor of the building was impossible and how did you just manage to do that?

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Actually, "make[s] people pay attention to the wrong thing" would probably be a good property as a slight variant of "are obscured from view", maybe?

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I guess making something ahve a mundane explanation isn't quite the same as Cut the Soul, actually. You aren't declaring that the miraculous thing isn't still happening. You're just declaring that a fully mundane explanation exists.

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But there's probably still a bit of Creature of Fable/Hunter mixed in there next to Troubled/Eide.

rapid shore
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I'm a fan of properties that imply the estates personality

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"loves to misdirect" maybe

hollow spruce
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Making estate properties is really fun

obsidian dagger
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The Deciever version might be something closer to (if I'm understanding Decievers correctly):

  • aren't doing anything (at least, not where you're looking)
  • can be explained
  • are impossible/almost impossible to figure out the explanation for
  • aren't technically impossible
hollow spruce
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Stage magic...
>Misdirects and wows
>Always has a reasonable explanation
>Isn't *real* magic
>Always has a trapdoor
obsidian dagger
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"Always has a trapdoor" is very funny, but I like it.

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I need to remember that you can pick properties that are closer to how the thing is understood than to an explanation of its exact physical properties.

vivid wraith
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my Dragons estate says nothing about giant reptiles thinkaboutit

obsidian dagger
hollow spruce
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Dragons...
>Are creatures of legend
>Breathe fire and lightning
>Put damsels in distress
>Guard great hoards
>Shall be slain by a knight
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My favorite way to think of estate properties is 'what is the funniest thing to apply to yourself and the world'

vivid wraith
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those are good!
Mine include "create opposition" and "are targets of a quest"

hollow spruce
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Oh, those are good

obsidian dagger
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I feel like "the kind of magic that involves trapdoors" and "the kind of magic that involves a deck of cards" could be subtly different. Or, at least, they might have different properties.

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I don't know how to explain this, but nevertheless, it feels right.

hollow spruce
vivid wraith
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It really really is

vivid wraith
hollow spruce
candid compass
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I think the properties are also in part how you perceive your own estate to be

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I imagine different Nobles of the same estate could have different properties

hollow spruce
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Yeah! You kind of shape your own estate with how you think about it

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Because how you think about it becomes kind of how it is, because you Are that estate

obsidian dagger
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I can't at all figure out how to word these as properties, but slight-of-hand with playing cards includes being able find something that someone else chose ("is this your card?") or being able to draw specific cards or something about having a card up your sleeve?

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"Can make things reappear/makes things reappear" for slight-of-hand-adjacent-stuff would be fun, also.

hollow spruce
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Sleight of Hand...
>Can't quite be understood
>Always has the right answer
>Takes practice and dexterity
>Is the friend of conmen and thieves
>Will make this... disappear!
obsidian dagger
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I like that.

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I feel like I'd absolutely hate that Noble if I interacted with them in-universe and like them a lot if I read about them.

hollow spruce
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That's most Nobles really

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Not the best lot

patent tiger
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Yeah

obsidian dagger
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you know what, that's fair.

tall jolt
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I've upset a Noble

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I will do it again

fleet harbor
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Which power did you upset

frank light
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Did you put a black hole in their heart?

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A common mistake

fleet harbor
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I do not actually think that is a common mistake

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:P

patent tiger
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I mean, who hasn’t?

nocturne epoch
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Currently my powers are uhhh

  • toppling the russian government and fighting Patrick Precipice-Lord, Power of Chaos
  • Singlehandedly destroying the entire kherson front
  • bargaining with Trinity, Power of WMD's to let them steal the entire world's nuclear arsenal
  • In an armed standoff with the Camorra after trying to start a technological revolution
patent tiger
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Let the record show I succeeded at that bargaining, thank you very much

nocturne epoch
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True

patent tiger
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(Turns out the Power of WMDs is actually a sad sack so it was concerningly doable)

nocturne epoch
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The world's nuclear arsenal remains as yet unstolen

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For now

patent tiger
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Yeah, I gotta actually set that up, but you’ve got like three other scenes running so I’m holding off a bit

nocturne epoch
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Feel free to start it whenever you want, unless you're planning to team up

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In which case it can wait til one of those wraps up

restive ridge
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Holy shit based

patent tiger
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I think we’re actually, like, the least based familia

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…No, that’s a very high bar

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We’re questionable enough to be Nobles for sure, at least!

restive ridge
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A very fun Familia

nocturne epoch
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Heroism/War/Confidence Games/Machines is an interesting bunch

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We're potentially adding Violence if I can poke the player into finishing

restive ridge
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Now I wanna play Nobilis as a player 😔

patent tiger
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Isn't that always the way

hollow spruce
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The Curse Eternal

fleet harbor
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The problem with playing Nobilis is that then you want to play Nobilis

patent tiger
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The classic play is to stick with a given group past one campaign being done and one of the players then runs

restive ridge
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Lol lmao at that happening

fleet harbor
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I'm kinda wondering if Nobilis wouldn't be something I can run

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Traditionally I have huge problems with prep due to executive dysfunction issues

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I need more experience with the game before I try I think

patent tiger
fleet harbor
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I know right

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It would be really funny if the only game I'd ever run successfully was Nobilis >_>

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Given its reputation

patent tiger
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Hey, better to try either way, right?

frank light
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Yeah!

hollow spruce
patent tiger
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Honestly, that's another reason why I appreciate play-by-post

hollow spruce
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The act of GMing is really fun but I'm too afraid about letting games just kind of go to rot by not keeping up with scheduling and prep

patent tiger
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There's more leeway for figuring things out on a shorter notice

fleet harbor
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My improv skills are also not very good, whereas my writing skills are at least okay

rose crescent
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I understand mechanics, but having to like, talk, gives me panic attacks

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But I want to run a game I have such good ideas I want to do

patent tiger
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As in, speak verbally, or is writing also an issue?

rose crescent
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Writing is also an issue

hollow spruce
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Improv and writing are mostly just practice things

patent tiger
rose crescent
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I'm... working on getting better at being able to talk to people

tall jolt
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I may have called Patrick Precipice Lord a Goat Fucker because he's a huge piece of shit with a asinine policy of non interference in a estate that literally is Chaos, all possibilities

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Denying the world the good of Chaos while actively hurting people

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and now he wants to kick my ass

fleet harbor
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I presume you're going to table the turns on him

tall jolt
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I mean, im going to try.

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Im running out of MP fast

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I have some ideas

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The problem is he has a super powerful affliction that means I can't attack him in any direct manner

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Also as an addition: He said I had a tantrum trying to keep him from inflicting his brand of chaos on the city and the instant I insult him he has a tantrum

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🤣

magic mason
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https://www.tumblr.com/deceiver-a-day
This is a very good account

Tumblr
Deceiver a Day

Daily pseudo-Estates for Excrucian Deceivers as inspiration for your Nobilis campaign.Deceivers and pseudo-Estates are a concept from the Nobilis tabletop role playing game by Dr. Jenna Katerin Moran. Feel free to harvest or chop up names for your own characters or use any character images here for avatars, NPCs or other other non-commercial, no...

vivid wraith
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yessssss

hollow spruce
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Courtesy of @reef perch

reef perch
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can confirm i did produce this edit

winged smelt
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A Warmain would make that

rapid shore
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amazing

restive ridge
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The Test of Posting

obsidian dagger
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Thought which I just remembered:

Skeletons...
- Offer support
- Are normally covered up
- Are durable
- Remain after death```
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This very intentionally conflates skeletons with stuff like support beams in a building.

vivid wraith
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nice!

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Skeletons also offer emotional support

obsidian dagger
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They could do that, yes. That's the joy of generically worded properties.

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I also vaguely remember a concept for a Noble of Bullheadedness who was formerly a "commander" in the Emu War (on behalf of the emus, of course). I didn't go any further than that, though.

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...dangit now I've remembered another idea I had once, and which I want to brainstorm rather than going to bed like I should. But basically... how do you handle prairies and/or prairie grasses? I know that quickly springing back after being burnt to the ground is an iconic part of them conceptually, at least in my mind, but I don't know how to best word that.

nocturne epoch
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are born of flame~

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Prairie would be cool though

obsidian dagger
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This is a thing which is firmly in Nobilis territory (which I know less about than the Chuubo side of things), but... "nettle rites" let you screw with some other Noble's Estate's properties, right? I'm thinking about how microwave ovens went from being Cool and High-Tech, to being passé and a lazy alternative to "real" cooking, and there's something there. (I have many Nobilis-adjacent ideas in the past, and they are currently pouring out.)

nocturne epoch
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Prairies

  • are vast
  • are healed by fire
  • contain bison
  • are beautiful
  • can feed hundreds
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I want to emulation myself and others full of bison

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Inside Of You Are Two Bison

obsidian dagger
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Hm. I wouldn't have personally said "can feed hundreds" but I can see why that would exist as a potential property?

wheat cobalt
nocturne epoch
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I don't necessarily mean humans

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'are complex' would be a good one actually

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hmmm

obsidian dagger
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I can understand a prairie feeding a whole ecosystem, but... it doesn't feel to me like a praire does that in some notable way more than any other biome?

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Like, yes, it does that, but that's not what a prarie's about in my mind.

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also I have this very clear image of the Duchess of Microwave Ovens showing up to important meetings or whatever wearing sweatpants and eating a TV dinner and sort of tuning out of whatever drama's going on and sitting back, and everyone just lets her because she's very powerful and also most people would be at least a little bit upset if she did to them what microwave ovens are known to do, which is make some spots way too hot while other spots are frozen.

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...that is an appropriate way to handle that kind of property, right? Where if the property says that the estate does something, you can just directly do that thing rather than making it so that something else heats/freezes stuff?

nocturne epoch
obsidian dagger
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But just... being metaphysically powerful enough to handle a major change from being high-tech and futuristic to being lowest-common-denominator slob "cooking" and come out of it doing fairly well, and having an Estate that can destroy or at least significantly damage... most things made out of matter, as sort of a side effect of one property (I don't even know how to phrase the other properties but it definitely includes something about providing adequate-quality food), means that she's strong enough to very pointedly Not Give A Fuck about a decent amount of stuff.

nocturne epoch
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Old screenshot

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but these are my favorite GM moments

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when things align and players realize things truly are That Bad

restive ridge
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Hahahhahaa

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Yes

obsidian dagger
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...I'm remembering my old Chuubo's Destiny takes, which are long out of date for Chuubo's lore, but I do wonder what the Worm Gods are. Also, noting that Osiris-from-Destiny (who was, I think, secretly ||actually Savathûn in disguise|| at the time irrc?) mapped very well onto Immortal Bindings/Blue, aka Gatekeeper, which was in part inspired by the actual mythological Osiris so that was neat.

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Also, how Purple Oryx looks.

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And part of the lore works for a Purple arc, if you're willing to accept "conquering planets" as "mundane, everyday life and work", which the story sure seems to do!

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I couldn't decide if the Vex were more like a Deciever or an Actual though. ...and now I actually will sleep.

vivid wraith
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🍌💤

magic mason
magic mason
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I would actually argue vex would use Lords Of Rule stats

  • The vex cultivate strange regions which they fill with monsters. They are toxic and exposure to a certain byproduct of them twists you(Gardener)
  • they are, frankly bizarre due to their existence as beings that exist throughout time and they use this to their advantage(deepness)
  • they are super intelligent and manipulative(architect)
  • they are incredibly competent(Holy but this one is definitely my biggest stretch if they are a rules lord they dumped this one)
pure cape
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This checks out

restive ridge
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Ok so

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One of my player Nobles just got made the Anchor of an NPC

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An NPC Warmain

frank light
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Help

candid compass
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Good luck lmao

hollow spruce
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Incredible

restive ridge
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Im probaly going against RAI but fuck it, I'm letting the Ghost Engine ride this road

patent tiger
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The ghost engine has possessed Nobilis pretty heavily already

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So fair tbh

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We're haunted

restive ridge
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Excrucians arent Powers so Im perfectly RAW tho :3

patent tiger
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I'm an NPC's Treasure in Suki's game, it's fine

fleet harbor
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Meanwhile I wrote a truly awful business communication

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This is what tabletop is all about

obsidian dagger
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I pointed the Hive Gods at Fallen Angel, but Oryx really wants a Purple arc. He also likes Awakening.

magic mason
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Hive gods are very eclectic

I would put them closest to Strategist stats wise

obsidian dagger
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I also don't know if Worm Gods and Ahamkhara are the same thing, but I'm fairly certain they get the same arcs.

magic mason
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But Wyrd is weird for them

obsidian dagger
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What is Wyrd?

magic mason
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Strategists “I am a void entity” stat

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Its where they get destruction, and their little pocket dimension

obsidian dagger
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So, Accursed, in Chuubo's terms?

magic mason
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Yes*

frank light
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Yeah

obsidian dagger
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Yeah, that doesn't work well for them. They get to return to their Throne World when injured, which sort of works, but they don't have to do so. And they claim and steal things, not destroy them.

frank light
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It’s the stat for “you are dying”

magic mason
obsidian dagger
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Yeah, those fit for Vex, I think. They definitely have Awakening. Keeper of Gardens kind of fits too.

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They like Reality Syndrome for potential power copying and wouldn't mind being Called Away to the Vex Future, but neither of those is necessary.

magic mason
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Deepness/awakening can do weird backstory manipulation which is good for the time bs

obsidian dagger
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Sorry I only know the Chuubo's terms for these.

magic mason
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It is ok

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I just wasn’t aware

obsidian dagger
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I've picked up some Nobilis terminology but I'm really coming at this from a Chuubo's angle. There's something which speculatively lists arc assignments for various archetypes, which I didn't realize had a one-to-one match with Nobilis traits already and that pairing is probably newer.

magic mason
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My idea is that if you were a vex in Chuubos, you would probably be a decently sized mind

And then have a bunch of other vex from keeper of guardians and impresario

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Like the actual character would be like… the undying mind

And then goblins and hobgoblins and shit would be summons

magic mason
obsidian dagger
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I'm trying to figure out if you'd be a a decently sized mind, or if you would be The Vex, as one character. But calling the larger Minds their own characters makes sense.

magic mason
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The different minds do seem to have divergent goals and features, even if it’s just specializing them as tools

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But there are those super warlike blue vex on mars who fight the cabal

Or the religious green vex in the garden

obsidian dagger
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The Sol Divisive are weird, and part of why I was looking at Called Away because they get a "shadow archetype".

magic mason
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Oh shoutout to the restorative mind too, that guy is a fun one

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“Timeline necromancer”

obsidian dagger
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I think the main reason I don't like A Keeper of Gardens for the Vex is because they're not Immortal Purple. Immortal is about being in tune with the world. It's about agreeing with it. So Immortal Purple is about being the lord and steward of part of the world... but the Vex aren't naturally stewards of some specific part of the world. They invade they world. They have their own reality and they impose that. That's Sickly. Though I suppose Awakening does some of that?

magic mason
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Keeper Of Gardens is toxic, which is what I was thinking for their invasive nature

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Like that is one of its core features

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The Gardener, even benevolent angels, twist people around them

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Grace Invades and all that

obsidian dagger
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Yes, but... okay. The keeper is Toxic. I don't think their garden is.

frank light
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Is immortal always about being in tune with the world?

obsidian dagger
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Yes, that's what being Immortal means.

frank light
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I always assumed it was about being kinda distant from it by virtue of being…immortal

obsidian dagger
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Or maybe "in tune with" the world is the wrong way of phrasing it. It's about the world agreeing with you.

vivid wraith
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attuning the world to yourself?

obsidian dagger
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Frantic is about doing your own thing, and Sickly is about clashing with and invading the world.

frank light
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Interesting

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I’ve only skimmed chuubos really, is this elaborated upon?

obsidian dagger
frank light
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Ah

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Okay

magic mason
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Hmmm that feels weird for me because frantic for Orange is Become Somebody/Visage

Which is the iconic Actual stat that Actuals use to Actual all over people

obsidian dagger
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Like... okay. The blue XP action is called Science, Faith, and Sorcery. And the reason those three are grouped together isn't because they're all used for magic-esque effects. It's because theyr'e all different ways of knowing things.

frank light
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Right…

obsidian dagger
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Imagine you have a box. You can't open it. Someone asks you what's in the box. How do you answer them?

frank light
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Some of the immortal arcs do seem to buck this trend

Same with some of the sickly arcs

Sickly arcs key thing is being corrupted or tormented. Being chased by something. With immortal arcs being about being distantly immortal.

I don’t disagree with the trend but it doesn’t seem to be a hard rule at all

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Wounded for example didn’t give me an invading vibe

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From what I’ve read of the Monstrous equivalent, it also bucks the trend with being kinda horrifying

obsidian dagger
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You can use Science to try to find out. You weigh the box, you look at it with various scopes and scanners and devices, you shake it and listen to it... basically, all sorts of elaborate ways of asking the world what's in the box. That's Immortal.

You can say "I have Faith that there's a treasure in the box." You don't care what the world has to say about the contents of the box; you have your own known truth, existing on its own. That's Frantic.

Finally, you can use Sorcery and cast a spell to turn whatever's inside the box into a frog. Now you know exactly what's in the box - it's a frog! You've taken your own reality and imposed it. That's Sickly.

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Immortal can be horrifying and spread influence, sure, but it's still fundamentally part of the world. And Sickly doesn't always infect, but it's still about having a truth and arguing that it's more important than the world's.

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Frantic is about just having your own truth and fundamentally not caring about whether Reality says otherwise.

frank light
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I guess I’ll have to agree to disagree

obsidian dagger
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That's fair. I might have been looking for post hoc justifications.

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And the lines definitely blur depending on how you look at it.

magic mason
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Other big reason I like keeper of gardens is so that you can be a big mind in charge of a shit ton of little guys

obsidian dagger
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That's more Impressario.

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Yes, A Keeper of Gardens is purple and gets treasures and minions... but if you want an ill-defined army of Generic Useful Dudes that's what Impressario (Sickly Purple) does.

frank light
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Keeper of gardens does still have explicitly little guys still

obsidian dagger
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Some, yes, but Impressario literally has a power called "Minions" explicitly for that.

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A Keeper of Guardens can do that; Impressario is about that.

magic mason
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Hence why I gave them light lord stats, so they have both

frank light
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Yeah!
All the purple arcs have access to little minions in some way tbh

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But with entirely different vibes for interacting with them

magic mason
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By the way, Pstate jumpscare

The Game Of Carl Pox

  • Has incredibly high stakes
  • forces you to play it
  • encourages you to recruit more people to play
  • Cannot be won
  • Causes you to lose whenever you think about it
frank light
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Rules lords got architect and Gardener

obsidian dagger
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A Keeper of Gardens (Immortal) lets you have minions from your Garden who notionally do their own thing but who you can order around. Sentimental (Frantic) lets you have your friends, who exist in your little "bubble" and be strengthened by you and follow your rules. Impressario (Sickly) lets you have generic minions and servants who you can summon in from off-screen to help you when needed.

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(Side note: Mamizou from Touhou, especially as she's depicted in the manga, is probably an Impressario. She came from outside Gensokyo, and, more to the point, one of the signature "things" she does repeatedly is whistling and having a large number of tanuki show up to help her with whatever the current problem is.)

candid compass
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it is kinda funny to me that in a way Architect is the least about your minions as well
it's ultimately more a stat about ordering around people, the minions are more secondary IMO

magic mason
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I usually imagine lesser vex constantly doing stuff.
Goblins doing basic construction
Harpies coding
Hobgoblins doing energy transfer
Minotaurs carrying heavy shit

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Hydras doing big math

obsidian dagger
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She also does a lot of shapeshifting, but I think that's honestly something she does on a mundane level, especially since we get to see her spend enough Will to get the "feel good about yourself" result in Forbidden Scrollery:

image.png
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I could see having both A Keeper of Gardens and Impressario for the vex.

magic mason
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Yeah

obsidian dagger
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I may have thought about how Tanuki would fit into Town. The big thing I came up with is that they have a big theatrical rivalry with the kitsune/shop-foxes, but not to the extent of actually disliking each other? Like, if a kitsune and a tanuki wanted to date, the most negative consequence would be that they'd both get really sick of people quoting Romeo and Juliet at them.

magic mason
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My setup was(because in glitch all the supernaturals have 4 stats)
Keeper of Guardians
Awakening
Impresario
Creature Of Light(mostly ignore this one, most of them probably wouldn’t have much and also its mostly just there because The Light have it. Could switch it for called away or something)

obsidian dagger
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Yeah, in Chuubo's the lists of arc assignments offered four potential arcs to each archetype even if not every individual would actually have all those arcs.

magic mason
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I find it very interesting that lords of game/the dark have Prophet and Wanderer

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Sorta positions them below their estate in a way you don’t normally see

obsidian dagger
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Wandered being?

frank light
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Called away

obsidian dagger
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Ah, alright. ...yeah, I see what you mean.

candid compass
magic mason
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They hear whispers
They see visions
They follow the word

candid compass
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this may also be a case where if we got a writeup of Prophet as a miraculous stat for the Game, it might have a very different vibe than the Chuubo arc

obsidian dagger
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What are Lords of Game about?

magic mason
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They want you to be free

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Even if it kills you

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Especially if it kills you

candid compass
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the Game exalts the freedom of choice in humanity

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you should make your own decisions, and let nothing stop you

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no one should kill you other than you yourself

fleet harbor
obsidian dagger
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Ah. Prophets get to make something which is theoretically possible... happen.

obsidian dagger
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and later, they can make things happen even if they're only almost possible.

candid compass
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it's also I think easier to understand the Game when you see them in contrast to the Rules
the Game is the self destructive urge in humanity, vs the Rules rigid desire for safety above all else

fleet harbor
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Two women break free of their mundane lives (and one of their abusers), become criminals, and then ||escape the police forever by driving over the edge of the Grand Canyon||

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That’s what the Game wants

obsidian dagger
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Prophet is about breaking rules, and Rules, or at least establishing your own. Do you think Nina from Artiswitch has Prophet or something else? ...and which Arc was it that could pull people into Unreal dream sequences which end with them having discovered themselves?

obsidian dagger
candid compass
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Creature of Delirium

fleet harbor
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The Game wants you to be free, to be yourself, and to be so completely free to be yourself that you overextend and die

magic mason
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They are intrusive thoughts parroted back to us by a living thing

They are also very edgy and cool

reef perch
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i imagine the game as being homomorphic to the cartoon shoulder devil

vivid wraith
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How so

obsidian dagger
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They sound like more. Do more, be more, live more, take more, suffer more, die more.

vivid wraith
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and not. the convo currently in tabletop-discussion

candid compass
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lmao

obsidian dagger
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Yeah, this is The Game, not a particular game.

fleet harbor
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That last part’s not just an option btw, they do in fact want you to keep pushing until you hit your limit

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Like it specifically wants you dead, and it wants you to do it to yourself in the coolest way imaginable

magic mason
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The full gamer stat spread is

Indomitable
Prophet(they are the only supernatural with it base actually)
Called Away
Creature of Fable

vivid wraith
obsidian dagger
#

Burn the candle at both ends?

obsidian dagger
candid compass
#

the Game is radical freedom
in contrast to the semi benevolent tyranny of the Rules

fleet harbor
#

The game loves that one warrior who single-handedly held the bridge until someone floated by in a barrel and stabbed him from underneath

obsidian dagger
#

Then they have their own Profound Meaning, their own image (don't know how to explain Red better), and an elemental concept they impose upon the world.

fleet harbor
#

The game loves the auto-engineer who keeps testing all of his own creations until one of them explodes with him in it

magic mason
#

Iirc Rinley is supposed to be slightly gamelord coded

Like even less so than E2 is a Ruleslord but still

obsidian dagger
#

actually, yeah, that makes sense!

candid compass
#

she has the spread

#

but that's it mostly

obsidian dagger
#

(I appreciate how everyone kind of agreed that Rinley is nonbinary, in no small part because they're the only character to not have separate names for male and female versions.)

fleet harbor
#

“Be all you can be, until you can be no longer”

#

The original Lord Entropy was a Lord of Games

#

The King of Evil

magic mason
#

We actually don’t know what E1 was

#

My theory is currently Angel

obsidian dagger
#

(Meanwhile, Suzy Schwan is nonbinary because when Jenna Moran was picking out character genders and rolling dice to determine who would be nonbinary she got Suzy like 5 times in a row and that seems like the kind of thing that happens when your gender is a Truth. Which would normally feel wrong, but the Best Friend's truths are mostly just a definition of existence and family, and the default Seizhi's is "I am the son of..." so defining Suzy as nonbinary as part of the equivalent truth makes total sense.)

#

(for the indefinitely-delayed School/Horizon campaign, I mean.)

fleet harbor
magic mason
#

I don’t think we know the actual types of any of the council

#

And I have seen a lot of posting along the lines of “what the hell is lord entropy”

#

With theories ranging from “creation sided mimic”to gamelord to ruleslord to Angel

obsidian dagger
#

Question: how involved do you think Lord Entropy II was in the death of Lord Entropy I? Canonically, I think he remembers having Lord Entropy I giving over his mantle, turning into ash, and flying up the chimney. And this is the official story.

magic mason
#

I think E2 killed him but only because E1 wanted it to happen

obsidian dagger
#

I wonder if the answer is "at one point, he was involved in the death of E1, but that's no longer the case"? I don't think there's any canon evidence for that, but it'd be really cool.

candid compass
#

I am fairly sure E2 killed him, the specifics are just unclear

magic mason
#

E1 is really good at weird corruption and mind control

candid compass
#

but Entropy doesn't seem like the type to get killed by his child unless its part of his plan

obsidian dagger
#

That scans, honestly.

magic mason
#

Entropy is pretty famous for him having a passing conversation with someone turning them into a fascist dictator

#

Like consistently

frank light
#

If he is a gamelord…he’s a weird one

magic mason
#

We do know he has his own version of WBH

frank light
#

Gamelords are evil but they usually value freedom…he……doesn’t

#

He just is kinda a spiteful asshole

fleet harbor
#

Mm, looking into it, maybe I just assumed because he’s called The Darkest Lord?

frank light
#

Possibly

fleet harbor
#

He values your freedom to fear him :)

frank light
#

Mhm mhm

#

I’ve also felt he was just a very very spiteful angel

#

Not quite fallen because he doesn’t love the world

magic mason
frank light
#

But y’know

An asshole

obsidian dagger
#

I cannot figure out where it talks about E2's arcs in the Horizon campaign. But they're there, somewhere, and I just want to find them.

frank light
#

I believe he was either creature of light or keeper of gardens

#

At least in glassmakers dragon

candid compass
#

in general E2 has the Rules stat spread

frank light
#

Oh he’s got impresario in that one?

#

Lmao yeah okay that’s super rules lord

candid compass
#

in GMD he has CoL and Gardener

magic mason
#

I usually think Ananda is a fallen

I have no evidence

candid compass
#

in Horizon he has CoL, Impresario, and Awakening

obsidian dagger
#

E2 being Rules actually makes sense.

fleet harbor
#

I think if Entropy is a Lord of Games it’s that he wants you to be the worst you can be

obsidian dagger
#

I'm trying to remember what E2 was before... I know he loved wicked things and that was his Thing.

frank light
#

I’m warming up to the ananda as mimic theory since he has an actual ninuanni name

But what he’s mimicking would have to also be an important question and fallen does make some sense

obsidian dagger
#

That sounds like Fallen Angel but that otherwise doesn't match?

frank light
#

Fun fact, in Ninuanni, ananda’s name translates to Remnant of the Daring

fleet harbor
#

Ananda as a Wild Lord perhaps?

#

I feel like it fits

obsidian dagger
#

I'm looking through the Horizon campaign index and can't find the section on E2.

magic mason
#

Mimic Ananda very much does track

#

That mf does have a blasphemy

fleet harbor
frank light
#

I always interpreted surolam as a wildlord

What with being a chunk of the weirding wall itself and having a lot of rules she follows

magic mason
#

The Mimic E1 theory I remember also Posits that Meon is being used as blasphemy storage

fleet harbor
#

Oh but we know whatshisface is a wild lord, right?

obsidian dagger
#

I wish I remembered all of this stuff better or was able to find the appropriate chaptes for reference.

magic mason
#

The third age imperator? Yeah she’s a wild lord

fleet harbor
#

The one we know basically nothing else about

frank light
#

I forgot his name but the long one

#

Playground boy

obsidian dagger
#

Billy Sovereign?

#

The bully?

#

No, he's an Actual iirc.

fleet harbor
#

No the Nobilis guy

candid compass
#

Ha-Qadosch

obsidian dagger
#

Ah.

fleet harbor
#

Ha-Qadosh!

frank light
#

Yeah that guy

#

Imperator.
Weirdo
And all around…unknown

magic mason
#

Plot twist: he’s a world exclusive imperator

From another world

candid compass
#

maybe in Nobilis 4e we'll finally know more 😛

fleet harbor
#

Anyway I do actually like Entropy as Games with the very specific twist that he wants you to realize your evil potential

frank light
#

very fair!

fleet harbor
#

He’s willing to constrain Nobles far more for the same general reason that Gamelords are okay with Nobles not being dead

magic mason
#

I like him as a bitter and wretched Angel, disgraced but not fallen

frank light
#

which is arguably even more restrictive

#

lemme go pull it up

fleet harbor
#

“Be as I would have you be” right

#

But what would he have you be? Evil.

candid compass
fleet harbor
#

Yeah

#

Hence the exclusion

candid compass
#

and if you aren't human, the Game and Rules don't care

frank light
#

i would argue the games would respect any choice, as long as youre doing it only for you
but then again maybe entropy is a bastard even among gamers

#

the worst gamer of all

fleet harbor
#

Entropy simply conceptualize any choice other than evil as not really your choice >_>

#

Anyway

obsidian dagger
#

...I just remembered a weird idea I had for a potential story set in School, involving an Actual as the _______ Teacher.

#

So, School is... it's kind of an archetypal concept of school, right? I mean, it isn't, but in some ways it feels like it.

#

I'm actually not sure if this teacher would be an Actual or not, but I had this idea for a teacher in an abandoned classroom who doesn't officially teach any classes, but if they can get their hands on a student, they will inflict the Curse of Babel onto said child in order to be able to teach them language classes (because of course a school needs a language teacher).

fleet harbor
#

It's school the way miraculous beings in the forms of teenagers would imagine school, I think

obsidian dagger
#

The original idea was "there's a language-teacher-shaped gap in the roster and so an Actual would inhabit that gap" but what I'm describing might be something else. I mean, the Curse of Babel is something being inflicted, not something being taken away.

#

I just think the idea "inflicts the curse of babel in order to be able to teach language classes" is very funny. (Although, of course, Suzy Schwan can probably ignore the language barrier, and Natalia already knows the languages everybody else would speak. With the possible exception of Chuubo, who... might not speak any normal human language? Although I suspect even without miraculous powers Suzy would speak the same language.)

reef perch
#

adjacently, i imagine a warmain wielding the test of communication who can inflict the curse of babel

vivid wraith
obsidian dagger
#

I've also remembered my idea for a Mystery I came up with, which... with the knowledge I currently have, might be Game but I doubt it?

#

Their core concept is that they're the thing you struggle with instead of taking on the actual problem. If you fight them, it feels like you're doing something useful. You're struggling and suffering in a way that feels narratively appropriate for penance for whatever mistakes you've made, or like you're struggling enough to show that you're really Working Hard to solve the problem (whatever it is). But, ultimately, fighting this Mystery isn't the right answer. It's not morally wrong, but it's just... an incorrect decision, which people take because it's morally and mentally easy.

#

Like... imagine that you've gotten into a really, really bad argument with your friend. It's the kind of thing that could end a friendship. Maybe it's your fault. Maybe it's theirs. Probably it's both, or neither. Maybe you should end the friendship, or maybe you need to put in the work to repair it. But, either way, it's a complicated, ugly mess with no clear villain and no clear bath forward and it involves accepting some degree of moral culpability for letting things get this far.

Then this mystery (who I'm tempted to call Azazel, who means Abomination) shows up. And they have an affliction making it so you can tell what they're saying, so they stand so far away that they can only barely be seen, and they whisper "I did it. I turned your friend against you. I whispered wicked words into their ear to bring them to fight you." And the thing is that Azazel is lying. They didn't actually do any of that. But they'll say that they did.

#

Azazel carries two dueling swords with them, one of which is perfectly sized and weighted for you, and which they will offer you if you come to fight. They're almost exactly as good at swordfighting as you are, so as you fight them, you'll be able to make progress against them. You won't be able to land a decisive blow on them, but you'll be able to fend off their attacks either, and gradually wear them down even as you're getting worn down. The whole time you fight, you'll be in a sort of stalemate, almost seeming like you're getting somewhere but never quite managing to win. And this will continue until either you run away from the fight, or you collapse from exhaustion or hunger or thirst.

#

That's... probably not actually Game, is it?

#

It does feel like a Mystery to me, at least.

reef perch
#

sounds more towards warmain to me

#

either way i like the idea

fleet harbor
#

Warmains and Gamelords explicitly have some things in common, too

#

(Including half of their miracle tracks)

magic mason
#

I still love the Warmain X Gamelord ship

reef perch
#

the "never quite manage to win" element def reads like indomitable/monstrous

obsidian dagger
#

Note that you also never quite lose, either. It's probably Indomitable, but Azazel will not ever outright defeat you. You lose by fighting until you collapse.

fleet harbor
#

Honestly I'd say Warmain given the explicit challenge

#

I'm not sure what I'd call it but it sounds like the test is whether you run or keep fighting

obsidian dagger
#

Probably? The way in which you win is by running away from Azazel, or better yet ignoring them entirely, but this is difficult because they have an Affliction which makes it so that if they talk to you, you can tell what they're saying.

reef perch
#

one needn't have mysteries scan exactly to gluubilis splats, granted

obsidian dagger
#

yeah; it's just that the existing ones happen to.

#

What's the Wild about?

reef perch
#

well 1) there are a good number of divergences in the ones that match and 2) a couple don't

fleet harbor
#

So, Wildlords are void beings the saw Creation early on and said "wow this is cool I want in" and brought their estates with them

#

They are ... broadly speaking they're the fey

#

They're solipsists

obsidian dagger
#

Ah, alright. Yeah, that doesn't fit, and Warmain pretty much does.

fleet harbor
#

They are freedom and madness

obsidian dagger
#

It would be sort of interesting to have a Warmain whose test is... very similar to something that reasonable people would consider a decent test? Like, if you saw a list of who passed and who failed, you'd go "yeah, that seems about right." The quality they're testing for is one that seems like a good quality for someone to have.

fleet harbor
#

They are escape from the self and escape into the self

obsidian dagger
fleet harbor
#

I think Glitch may have cut down on the explicitness of their void being-ness?

magic mason
obsidian dagger
#

Their test is probably the Test of Abomination; can you ignore an obvious problem which is easy to hate and presents a perfect scapegoat, in favor of a complex problem which is both practically and morally difficult to tackle?

fleet harbor
#

Anyway I like to think of them as fey

magic mason
#

(being immune to destruction, primarily)

obsidian dagger
#

I think that outright arguing with Azazel is also a mistake? Any position they hold will indefinitely slide around and reshape itself just to oppose you and make you want to argue with them more. Rejecting their statements is all well and good, but the ultimate goal is to be able to ignore them and walk away.

fleet harbor
#

Yeah that's Warmains

#

The only real way to beat a Warmain is to do so as a fuckup

#

You want the Warmain to die thinking "what the fuck I lost to this loser?"

#

Cheat in ways they consider asinine

#

Approach them sideways

#

Do not play their stupid games, or be too stupid to play their very clever games

obsidian dagger
#

Maybe... the big difference is that I don't think Azazel is engaging in a test in good faith? Warmains want to find things which are worthy to keep. Azazel is flypaper, or an antlion trap.

vivid wraith
#

domain miracle'd the gravity of the situation

fleet harbor
#

One of us circumvented this by granting Stepnix's character powers that made the fight not what the Warmain wanted

vivid wraith
#

puzzle boss weirdos

reef perch
fleet harbor
#

And it's not even just "cheat" because cheat might be part of the test

obsidian dagger
#

I mean, "good faith" is probably the wrong phrasing. And what you're describing reminds me of a specific scene from Order of the Stick, which I don't want to share but is a great example of "win by refusing to enter the other person's story". Actually, some of Ave Xia Rem Y's more recent stuff sort of touches on this, where a character's "territory" is described not just as literal land, but as brutal, cuthroat, meaningless violence.

fleet harbor
#

You have to cheat in a way they hate

obsidian dagger
#

(And he is also disgustingly powerful.)

fleet harbor
#

Like ... okay if Star Fleet is a warmain, Kirk hacking the Kobayashi-Maru is passing the test with flying colors

#

It loves the way he won

patent tiger
fleet harbor
#

Oh man yeah

obsidian dagger
#

I mean, I don't know if he's a warmain strictly, but it's still a good example of "the only way to win is not to play".

patent tiger
#

Honestly I think you’re onto something, they’re at least exploring similar metanarrative spaces deconstructing stories of heroism and how to benefit from them as the villain role

#

And how falling into a narrative rhythm is a trap, even if it would declare you the winner

fleet harbor
#

In some ways like ... no element of a warmain's test is ever really in good faith

#

Oh they'd insist it is

patent tiger
#

Warmains are playing heads I win, tails you lose, and saying that the point is the love of the game, not the outcome

#

…

#

They’re casinos

fleet harbor
#

They'd insist they just want to wrestle, to see what you really are, to see if you're worth existing, but that's ... like who the fuck are they to be testing you in the first place?

#

They don't have the right

#

Don't give them that

#

Troll the shit out of them

obsidian dagger
#

I don't think he's a Warmain per se? ||It feels more like he parasitizes the narrative. He shows up, and suddenly he's the main villain, to such an extent that the primary plot of the story is pushed to the side, in a way that really didn't happen with any other arc. He made himself a central figure. He usurps characters from the main plot (Trog). He works his way into the Linear Guild. He's inescapable. The way they beat him is by leaving him in the middle of nowhere, as he shouts about how they haven't beaten him and the story's not over.||

patent tiger
#

But I had not considered the adjacency, and yet it's very pointedly there!

fleet harbor
#

Bribe every bureaucrat in Star Fleet to adjust your score in Kobayashi-Maru after the fact and insist that you did, in fact, win, look it says so right there in the computer

#

Watch the Warmain cope, seethe, and mald

#

"I beat you and I made you hate it"

obsidian dagger
#

You want to know something extra-horrifying about that ending? ||Tarquin's genre-savvy, so there's one of two alternatives going on here:

  • He doesn't carry a ton of food on him, because when does that ever matter? So, he'll die slowly of starvation.
  • He has a Ring of Sustenance or an ioun stone equivalent, Just In Case, meaning that he'll stay in the middle of trackless, unnavigable, featureless desert, where scrying and teleportation explicitly don't work. Indefinitely. And, sure, he's a loose end and maybe someone could rescue him, but that's the point. He's just... there, forever, unresolved, where nobody cares enough to rescue him.||
#

...Okina Matara from Touhou as a Warmain? Nnnnot really, since it turns out she was just doing the whole thing to get attention, but she did set up a whole big Thing to test everyone in order to pick a serpent.

fleet harbor
#

And I think Gamelords are kind of ... Warmains as they would be if they were beings of creation

#

Gamelords assume you have that worthiness in you already

#

They just want you to realize it (and die)

magic mason
#

currently thinking about what Pseudo-estates for estate based stats other than domain(as seen on Erus) or persona(as seen on deceivers and probably Zu) would look like
Like what if someone had Prophet, but catalyzed around the themes of a novel like nightmare
Or Symbolic, but the element of the world they embody isn't necessarily around when they aren't
Or Vastness, but the elemental parts(and I think Chuubos even uses this one) call upon a region of the world the creature is native to.

obsidian dagger
#

What is Vastness?

frank light
#

Child of the ash

#

Kaiju stat

obsidian dagger
#

But "symbolic" being a symbol of an element that doesn't exist is a really cool concept that I have never seen adequately expressed but would be very cool. Where it's not just a narrative thing they bring to the table, but some physical element.

frank light
#

True gods, drowning deeps shadows/imperators, and serpents possess it

obsidian dagger
#

Child of the Ash doesn't do that, but I think Sickly Green does? Although Sickly Green calls upon somewhere which doesn't, strictly speaking, exist, typically?

frank light
#

Child of the ash is the vastness/kaiju stat

#

Symbolic is another stat

#

It’s the oneeeee Jasmine has…I cannot remember which one it is

#

Primordial!

#

Yeah

obsidian dagger
#

All the Green arcs do have an Estate which is described as a place, and your elemental manifestation is in some way a manifestation of that place.

#

Yeah Primordial is Black, which means it's more of a metaphor than something literal.

frank light
#

Well sometimes it’s literal.

obsidian dagger
#

Well, yes, but it's more of a metaphor.

frank light
#

Such as being the sun

#

I guess it’s a substance vs dharma dichotomy like in Nobilis

obsidian dagger
#

Well, Jasper is the Sun because she has Child of the Ash and is Hope because she's Primordial I'm pretty sure.

frank light
#

Right

#

Yeah

#

Though the primordial arc from what I’m reading does very very often appear to involve a physical embodiment in many regards

#

With the lake examples as well

obsidian dagger
#

Also, more support for my immortal/frantic/sickly trichotomy:

Child of the Ash is a miraculous Otherworldly Arc. It’s suitable for characters who are exceptionally real—characters so thoroughly themselves, so indomitably real, that if they lost themselves in the depths of the Outside new worlds would congeal around them.

Called Away is a miraculous Otherworldly Arc. It’s suitable for characters who find themselves drawn away from the normal world into a place of heightened reality. [...] Somewhere, beyond or at least slightly estranged from the normal world, there is a place that is a primordial wellspring of that mana, substance of and source to your Estate.

#

Immortal is described as exceptionally real, and Sickly is described as "away from normal reality".

#

And Frantic makes you an exemplar and servant of one particular element. You're not from some other world, and you're not so real you become a world. You're tied to your specific Element, and the rest of the world can do what the rest of the world does.

vivid wraith
#

learning about Nobilis/Glitch makes Emptiness arcs make so much more sense

obsidian dagger
#

...explain.

frank light
#

oh yeah emptiness arcs
Monstrous Eide and Wyrd

or...what is it called in chuubos?
indomitable
Troubled
and Accursed

#

the classic void stats

obsidian dagger
#

yeah those three

#

Emptiness is really easy to define as suffering but I don't think that's correct.

frank light
#

all of them very explicitly void stats
hell monstrous is what gives lords of game and warmains the ability to percieve in the void

#

oh its not suffering but its very introspective

#

though they all do have some aspect of a bane or something
hell even indomitable/monstrous has one

#

even if in its case its much more mild

vivid wraith
#

The theming around void/Outside/etc. clicks better with the Nobilis cosmology as background

frank light
#

plus they all share the whole "making symbolically rich minions" and "turning into symbolically rich kaiju" and "making a fucking pocket dimension babeyy"

#

its great

#

i love them

#

strategists get fucking TWO
eide and wyrd
because theyre just that cool(in pain)

fleet harbor
#

Chuubo's occupies a bit of an odd place because the general implication is that Town isn't sort of inherently objectionable in the way that the Ash is

#

Like you can object to it, people do

#

But it's not a giant flaming spear piercing the belly of the darkness

obsidian dagger
#

Yeah, there's a lot of Excrucians in Town who looked around at the current state of existence and nonexistence, and basically nodded their heads and said "yeah, we basically won" and proceeded to just settle down.

frank light
#

shame about the strategists but i suppose thats to be expected
best time to take a break though tbh

#

"we fuckin gottem babeyyyy"
unfortunately looks like there's still some projects trying to make ANOTHER world ash but

fleet harbor
#

Town also seems to predate the World Ash disappearing?

#

Kinda wonder where it came from

frank light
#

i think theres a theory that it was a chancel

fleet harbor
#

If anywhere

frank light
#

so it sorta...stuck around after the ash got shlorped by the void
cus you know them chancels
built to last

#

takes 100 mortal souls to build one so I sure hope theyre built to last

patent tiger
#

To be fair, Creation took a fair bit more than that

vivid wraith
#

What was the cost of Creation?

patent tiger
#

If I were Creation and I fucking died but some random chancel didn't I'd be tilted

frank light
#

good question

patent tiger
frank light
#

theres an implication that the whole "crimes can carve safe places" was actually written INTO the ash

#

universal property

vivid wraith
#

i see i see

frank light
#

lemme pull up the beings that were said to have been slain in the creation of the Ash

#

it was three big ones (including narsinha)

#

course its a lot of mythology but y'know
big mythology

vivid wraith
#

OH that bit

#

I remember that

fleet harbor
#

I do kind of wonder what Cneph was

#

Just a void being of exceptional power and ambition?

#

Or something else

#

Probably unknowable

#

"What is god"

frank light
fleet harbor
#

"We'll get back to you on that"

frank light
#

there is a mention of beings far greater than even excrucians in the void

#

who's divine spark is like a sun compared to the candle that strategists possess

#

probably one of those big ones

patent tiger
frank light
#

oh hes absolutely a void being yeah

#

or super implied to be one

patent tiger
#

And, "Scholar of Perseverance" kinda makes that make a lot of sense to me, actually - he's a Not-being interested in making something that lasts

#

And by "interested" I mean "you ever hyperfocus so bad you commit a cosmic injustice"

obsidian dagger
# frank light

Referring to the phenomena stalking the void as suzerain has fascinating implications.

frank light
#

esp since theres lots of stories of him talking with harumpah (who's name apparantely translates to The Army's Good!)

vivid wraith
patent tiger
#

And, from this side section in that same book

image.png
#

That's really how I think about it - man was an artist

#

The most dangerous and cruel kind of being

fleet harbor
#

Harumpah is also just a biblical reference to Harumaph, no?

frank light
#

and one nonexistent day they build a tree of worlds and make it everyones problem

patent tiger
frank light
#

excrucians call themselves the Children of Harumaph

#

according to 2e apparently

obsidian dagger
#

No, I mean, suzerains control the external affairs of their vassals. So, uh, who are their vassals having external connections with?

reef perch
#

a second, voidier void with even less perception in it

obsidian dagger
#

and who specifically are they suzerain to? The Strategists? Reality?

frank light
#

i interpreted it to mean they hold some of the highest authorities in the void
rather than the strict definition

#

but who knows!

patent tiger
#

(And, like, yes, the world is wrong and a lie and ought to be torn asunder, but also... I kind of get it. I think, if I were in the Not, and the Not was the only thing that had ever (Not-)been, and I were an artist passionately enamored by the concept of perseverance (something which the Not is bad at), I would commit a cosmic injustice, too)

#

(I think, what little we have of Cneph makes sense, actually!)

reef perch
#

cneph fucked up the whole deal is my guess

fleet harbor
#

Well

#

I mean it's the problem with order

#

It offends chaos by its very existence

frank light
#

adding death in (and perhaps, adding the Not inside, that little strand of True Death) seems to have been on purpose

patent tiger
frank light
#

ye ye

patent tiger
#

It seems like it needed it, or it just, fell apart

#

Death is how something perseveres, paradoxically

frank light
#

its super interesting how that links to the whole...strand of the not inside creation
cus that is said to be the true death.

#

or well, truly dying is that strand of the Not returning into the void

fleet harbor
#

What was once simply What Is Not changes to Not-exist only in reference to what is

#

But does that make what is wrong?

#

It's a crime against the void

#

But

frank light
#

well if you see it in creation the wrongness crawls into your eyes and starts murdering you
...so maybe its wrong

perhaps not a justification for its annihilation but it does...have a solid amount of evidence towards the wrongness

vivid wraith
magic mason
patent tiger
#

Maybe Strategists are just a placebo effect

frank light
#

explode

fleet harbor
#

Ultimately any act of true self-expression would have been a crime against the void

frank light
#

would it be?

nocturne epoch
#

Strategists are just bad at creation, literal skill issue - Nobles

frank light
#

i got the impression that self expression is how the void operates entirely

candid compass
patent tiger
frank light
#

no
Destruction at level 5 (+1 burn)

patent tiger
frank light
fleet harbor
patent tiger
#

Death is needed for self-sustaining - and that's the essence of perseverance

fleet harbor
#

But self-expression is kind of about imposing yourself on other things

patent tiger
frank light
#

DAMNIT

#

shit

#

fuck

patent tiger
frank light
patent tiger
#

To be Not is to be purely comfortable with oneself - but it is also to be entirely alone

magic mason
frank light
#

it is interesting that Vision exists as a miracle for many void beings tbh

#

it gives them some access to a perception that is...less violent than how things are in creation

#

it seems to be more about seeing somethings selfness rather than seeing anything at all

candid compass
#

the void sense from Vision is interesting, yeah

vivid wraith
#

hey Jenna i have never seen this term outside of TVTropes. explain.

image.png
candid compass
#

it would not surprise me if Jenna is a troper

patent tiger
vivid wraith
fleet harbor
#

I just can't blame Cneph for being an artist

magic mason
#

almost comes across to me as Mad Science

patent tiger
fleet harbor
#

(Oh for sure)

#

(Power of Void, artist)

patent tiger
#

("Ah, yes, the Void, the Estate about something that can be used as a canvas to make a wonderful artwork. Gee, mister Strategist, why are you so angry right now?")

fleet harbor
#

(I swear this was not on purpose)

frank light
#

god its so funny

fleet harbor
#

(But now that I've considered it I won't be able to unsee it)

#

(The only solution is to lean in)

candid compass
#

you should tell that theory to a Strategist, I'm sure they will appreciate it 😛

patent tiger
#

Strategists do famously love a Creational perspective on things

#

Why would they wrap themselves in it otherwise?

#

Why would they have Flore otherwise?

fleet harbor
#

I do think it's kind of cool and interesting that that is what Strategists and Powers have in common

vivid wraith
patent tiger
#

Yeah

fleet harbor
#

This is what it's like being a mimic

frank light
#

I love mimics

patent tiger
#

- pretty much nobody

frank light
#

WHY AM I ALONE IN THIS
THEYRE ADORABLE

#

EVEN MY ABHORRENT WEAPON FIGHTS ME ON THIS ONE

#

Well no I guess she didn’t but “the cutest part is their screams” is unsettling!!! Freaky ass halberd

wheat cobalt
frank light
#

LMAO

tall jolt
#

I know its not great but the void is theoretically endless, I don't understand why Excrucians can't let a small piece of is exist when they can fuck off elsewhere

frank light
#

Oh there’s

#

Problems

#

So uh…you’d think that would be easy right?

#

Uhm…unfortunately it isn’t

#

Strategists for example…are dragged back to creation

nocturne epoch
#

I think of it as the whole lead ball on a sheet thing

#

creation is heavy

frank light
#

Their stay in the void is as temporary as their stay in creation itself

#

Deceivers and warmains have their own issues with it.

nocturne epoch
#

yeah the ones who can stand apart don't want to

#

and the ones who can't well, can't

#

Deceivers in particular are trying to help you*
*terms and conditions apply

patent tiger
#

Deceivers stick to Creation out of the goodness of their heart*. Warmains stick to Creation because it’s cool to them. For both of those, a theoretically infinite amount don’t care and just stay away.

Strategists don’t stick to Creation, they are stuck to Creation.

frank light
#

They’re thorns in the side of creation

#

Unfortunately they’re barbed thorns.
They can’t exactly leave permanently either

tall jolt
#

I mean sure its a cosmic injustice but its an injustice that takes more injustices to remove. At some point the cycle has to end. Strategists may be fucked, but everyone suffers in Creation, just have to help each other to suffer a little less

frank light
#

Yeah that’s why some of them…do stop actually

#

Strategists at least…some of them…some of them realize that this war hasn’t helped them much

#

It hasn’t exactly helped them heal any more

#

So that’s why some of them have stopped

tall jolt
#

Ye, and thats a good thing on some level

frank light
#

That’s what glitch is about

tall jolt
#

Warmains seem like the worst of the bunch tbh

#

"Yeah lets take this cool thing with its own individuality and make it part of me"

patent tiger
#

They are the ones you need to put the most work in to cast as tragic, of the lot

frank light
#

They’re weird for sure

vivid wraith
#

they're so cool

#

limitless confidence

frank light
#

They don’t even have…well a lot of their personhood until they first awaken having somehow tempered someone

#

Like some emanation of the void just crawls on in, possesses someone, and then you realize you were a warmain the whole time like “wait what the fuck? Damn”

patent tiger
#

Hermit crab behavior

#

All this time I thought I was a normal crab, but this hat is a gamechanger

hollow spruce
#

But yeah Strategists Cannot fuck off into the void

#

much to the annoyance of literally everybody involved

candid compass
#

Creation perceives the Not

candid compass
tall jolt
#

If it was a choice it'd be nicer tho

#

or if there was some way to like show them what its like to not be without making them not be so they can make an informed choice

vivid wraith
#

I think there's a lot of not getting to choose in the Nobilis-verse

candid compass
patent tiger
restive ridge
#

Free will only exists because of the Not

restive ridge
#

Also Im late

#

But its good to remembet that like

#

Deceiver Warmain Strategist are broad categories for Void-creature who for a reason or another are participating in the Vade Bellum

#

Like Void-being with the stat sheet of an Excrucian who never interacts with Creation isnt an Excrucian

#

Its also important to remember that the Lands Beyond didnt start the war

#

Heaven looked in fear upwards to Ninuann and said "Oh shit there might be monsters there" and some of the boundless beings of Ninuann correlated themselves to Creation as Excrucians

rapid shore
#

(and this was one of the oldest things I heard about Jenna's writing, this was years ago)

#

the jenna-stuff frames that sort of 'changing the world around you' as innately corrosive

#

at least for Chuubos

magic mason
#

In the case of the first two, they don’t believe mortals are capable of “choosing the correct option”

#

A lot of Excrucians aren’t going out of their way to be bastards to mortals on the street

They can be even be kind to average people while they tear Gods from their thrones

rapid shore
#

though they did start the stabbing part

magic mason
#

From a Not-Perspective. Perception is worse than stabbing

rapid shore
#

have they tried not-Not-existing

#

actually thats literally Wildlords isnt it

magic mason
#

Depending on how that is read, yes actually

#

Oh if that is your framing that is wildlords ye

fleet harbor
#

One of the key metaphors here is the civilization/wilderness metaphor

magic mason
#

But almost all excrucians have some degree of creational lived experience

Only exception is void native strategists and deceivers

fleet harbor
#

Before civilization, the forest just is on its own terms

#

But afterwards, it becomes a wilderness

#

That act of forcing it to be another thing is a sort of violence (which you can map metaphorically to hegemonic culture or colonialism)

magic mason
#

Warmains become a lot less awful if you assume creation is doomed(which I think a lot of them do)

Then its almost romantic, like vacation photos, like historians they went somewhere that shouldn’t or couldn’t be forever, found the things there that truly matter to them, and took it with them

#

A warmain eats you to make sure that when all is said and done, your folded neatly in a scrapbook that says “the good parts of creation”

#

Romantic as in the artistic movement… unless

rapid shore
#

I see warmains as the clearest abuse metaphor in the host

magic mason
#

Really? Not deceivers?

rapid shore
#

Deceivers get pretty- yeah

#

I guess its a split

fleet harbor
#

Different kinds

rapid shore
#

both are very wrapped up in themselves

#

the only things that are useful or of value are things that are of value to them

#

deceivers maybe map better to personal abuse

fleet harbor
#

I also think of it in terms of like ... motivation?

rapid shore
#

warmains map to conquest imo. They co-opt.

fleet harbor
#

Strategists are motivated by anger and personal animus

#

Deceivers are motivated by philosophy

#

(Or at least justify things through it)

#

Warmains are motivated by the same thing that motivates a child to pick the wings off of an insect, I think

#

Curiosity

magic mason
#

It is partially philosophy with deceivers, but it also talks about love a lot

They love you, the ephemeral, amorphous concept at least

They just hate your flesh, and your bones, andyourthoughtsandyourfeelingsandyourpersonalityandyoursoulandyourexpirences

So they wanna drop those bits

#

As of glitch at least they don’t even really know Ninuan exists as a place

fleet harbor
#

Also at least some of them are actually really bad at compartmentalizing the way they kind of have to

#

And keep like ... making friends

rapid shore
#

huh I missed it the first time

#

but some of those far roof Mysteries are totally name-dropped in Nobilis 3e, as abhorrent weapons

#

didnt expect that

restive ridge
#

Oh yeah Mysteries seem to be in general Abhorrent Weapons "mutating" in Chuubo metaphysics

rapid shore
#

yeah its interesting

#

and they all seem to have alt-names that fit the abhorrent weapon scheme too

#

"Goblin, who is named Cruelty" or "Harpy, who is named Disdain"

restive ridge
rapid shore
#

thats why you need the big train around Saturn

#

one of my favorite setting details

#

fuck it just railway to the beyond

#

I was this close to playing a Noble of Stars for my first one but I didn't think I could do it justice

frank light
restive ridge
#

They were the ones that rode out into Creation and starting hacking up Angels yes :p

rapid shore
#

Imo, Host started the war

#

but the Host isnt the Lands Beyond

frank light
#

Plus if you believe the mythos of the cintamani, the excrucians had to be held at bay until the third age.

And also that one abhorrent weapon that is creation’s worth.

#

So it’s a real fucking weird one

restive ridge
#

My fav theory is that Harumaph is a Strategist type being

#

And the Warhost is an Arcana of his he unleashed with Epic Greater Spherecraft or smt lmao

frank light
#

Possibly!

#

If Harumaph is one of the gigantic void beings said to appear in the void that’s totally possible

#

That with the snap of his fingers boom we got a pantheon of gods ready to fight for him

#

Course I personally believe in the theory that he’s the same headmaster of bleak academy which may mean he’s a warmain

#

But big shrug

restive ridge
#

Tho we should remember what the actual intended metaphor is

#

Creation is transgender, The Host is Halimede

fleet harbor
#

There are a lot of metaphors, I think

frank light
#

No no morgana’s on to something

#

The universal metaphor

#

The only real story this game is about

fleet harbor
#

Honestly I think Glitch very deliberately evoked “Ninuan is transgender”

frank light
#

Halimede

hollow spruce
#

stop that

frank light
#

(Oh absolutely this is just so insane I have to go with it for the bit)

#

(Ninuan honestly has a lot of weird queer allegory stuff)

hollow spruce
#

Glitch is so fucking full of allegory

fleet harbor
#

Ninuan is a general metaphor for What-Hegemonic-Culture-Steps-On in many places

#

But also

#

“Like any good fable, it maps to an allegory of your choice”

hollow spruce
frank light
#

So true

fleet harbor
#

Don’t forget neurodivergent

hollow spruce
#

can't forget neurodivergent

patent tiger
#

Extrapolating the Not-people-as-oppressed allegory exclusively to include angry online leftist discourse in the welken-law

#

I think Excrucians would make some next-level callout posts

candid compass
rapid shore
#

Its interesting to see how Ninuan's changed as Jenna's writing has

patent tiger
#

Which is a quintessential queer experience

#

I have destroyed much of the world with the power of my rage

hollow spruce
#

oh yeah? name one thing of the world

patent tiger
#

Gimme five more minutes and there won’t be any things of the world

candid compass
#

Ru leading the Warhost to victory

patent tiger
#

(Honestly I do think Destruction and whatnot tie into the theme, since, [lashing out] is a response to things being too much to bear just as much as [running away] is, and those tie together into the broader themes)

patent tiger
hollow spruce
#

'we're so lambda-back' to 'it's so snover'

restive ridge
fleet harbor
patent tiger
fleet harbor
hollow spruce
fleet harbor
#

I have ensnared you in Creation

#

You are henceforth an Estate

hollow spruce
#

Oh, horrifying

#

An estate who is One Person ™️ is Just Horrifying

fleet harbor
#

I mean that’s just Deceivers

frank light
#

Classic eriide move

#

Just call your opponents racist for trying to stop you

restive ridge
#

The Estate of Michael's Inability To Do His Own Laundry (tbc not a Deceiver Estate, Imperators just dont have a lot of good Estates to pick from now)

frank light
#

Lmao

#

Usually something entirely new gets born when they start running out but also French fry stuck in the corner was an estate

#

So who am I to judge

magic mason
#

Anyone here around for my psedou-estate for things other than domain and persona posting last night

fleet harbor
restive ridge
#

Very real

magic mason
fleet harbor
#

You know what would be amazing

#

Is if Michael’s girlfriend, who does not know about but is beginning to suspect he cannot do his own laundry, gets ennobled as the Power of Michael’s Inability To Do His Own Laundry

#

And then she finds out it’s a mimic estate

frank light
#

Lmaoooooooo

fleet harbor
#

And girlfriend is being generous they’re on maybe the fourth date

restive ridge
magic mason
#

I really like the weird pstates Chuubos vastness examples have

Vastness is a green stat, which are all estate based

But the Vastness examples are all regions of a fictional/alternate world that the Kaiju is native to and heralds

#

Primordial Woods and Concrete Jungles

#

(Child Of The Ash)

vivid wraith
#

ooooh

magic mason
#

Pseudo estates with symbolic are also really fun

Eldritch god who adds a new star to the sky type beat

fleet harbor
#

God damn it I made another person by accident

frank light
#

Yeah

#

You sure did buddy

candid compass
#

how do you make someone by accident?

restive ridge
#

Power of Void

rapid shore
fleet harbor
#

Okay so the Deceiver was turning invisible right so I figured okay I know the void reclaims that which lacks definition and I was thinking you know maybe if she’s invisible that means a void blast will do something so —

#

deep breath

#

— so I throw a Lesser Creation of Void at her and it goes whomph but later the Power of Witchcraft phones me up and says there’s a shadow version of the Deceiver just kind of hanging around and I’m just thinking

#

Uh

#

Well

#

Shit

#

(Performed in character voice)

restive ridge
#

For an OOC explanation this little shade of the Deceiver is specifically just bits and shreds of picked up or remaining from their mortal life of Creational dharma being reclaimed

fleet harbor
#

(Another member of our familia also created this Deceiver)

#

(So uh)

#

(Ru’s about to have a great time XD)

restive ridge
fleet harbor
#

Tbf this isn’t even the first time Sam made a person by accident, one of her anchors is “the shadow people”

restive ridge
#

(I also wanna clairfy to Gkat that this wont be like the result of like every miracle they use to be clear)

fleet harbor
#

Yeah I didn’t expect it to be

hollow spruce
#

Maybe it should be

fleet harbor
#

Affliction: Every time I use Domain it creates people

patent tiger
#

Parenthood, the strongest curse of them all

frank light
#

thats why nilind took it as a wound

tall jolt
#

New noble estate: desire to be naked

#

The best estate, I am sure you'll agree

#

RETURN TO MONKE

fleet harbor
#

Power of Nudism

#

Subtly different from the Power of Nudity

patent tiger
#

Finally, the ability to Enchant [is a social movement] on my rival's lunch and see how they navigate that

fleet harbor
#

Nudity ...
... can be funny (2)
... can be sexy (2)
... can be gross (2)
... leaves you unprotected (1)

patent tiger
#

[Can be] properties seem primarily usable from the negation

#

Removing the capacity to be funny from someone's comedy set

fleet harbor
#

Nudism ...
... is a social movement (2)
... is practiced mainly in private (2)
... is usually frowned upon (1)
... has nothing to do with sexuality (1)
... absolutely has something to do with sexuality (1)

wheat cobalt
#

giving a mountain the capacity to be sexy in order to distract several thousand people at once

patent tiger
#

It's Nobilis, I think mountains already have that capacity

wheat cobalt
#

to the average person, though?

fleet harbor
#

Why else would you learn the mountain-pocketing technique

restive ridge
#

All mountains are sexy already

patent tiger
#

It's a world populated entirely by weirdos

wheat cobalt
#

listen, it's like Mal's "destroy inanimate objects" destruction

#

anything can be sexy under animist logic

#

but then the property is like "???"

frank light
#

Wha

wheat cobalt
#

you have to draw a specific line - I mean, it's the discussion we had before where technically, all things are animate

frank light
#

Oh yeah

wheat cobalt
#

so "destroy inanimate objects" has to have a reasonable-ish arbitrary line

fleet harbor
magic mason
wheat cobalt
#

yes

#

yes it is

frank light
#

I don’t know this one

restive ridge
frank light
#

No yeah that’s

#

How that works

wheat cobalt
#

Perception Is Violence Women

magic mason
#

Women=Perception=Violence

Women=Violence

fleet harbor
#

And that's why we support women's wrongs

patent tiger
#

Creation afflicted the Not with women, and for that, it shall never be forgiven

#

...Actually, "the violence of perception is conceptually cognate to gender" is an entirely coherent take

frank light
#

Narsinha was already a girl tho ;-;

patent tiger
#

So yeah maybe

frank light
#

Or at least used she/her

patent tiger
#

Not-things are stuck with pronouns now, because of woke

frank light
#

Ok

restive ridge
#

I was tempted to have Lithphrasia rant about how the freedom of the Truth

#

Freedome from violence, from existence, from identity, from women,

frank light
#

I love having pin authority

patent tiger
fleet harbor
patent tiger
#

Meanwhile, I can ensure they are not free of at least two of those

restive ridge
#

Yeah I had to scrape it because I didnt find the time for it so that bit of characterization is gone to nowhere

wheat cobalt
patent tiger
#

Yes but Nilind is a freak

wheat cobalt
#

are there any strategists that aren't?

frank light
#

Nilind would have WHAT

patent tiger
#

I think definitionally no, but they're all different kinds

candid compass
wheat cobalt
#

I mean this is Nilind In An Even Worse Situation

wheat cobalt
# 

WE ARE THOUSANDS OF FEET IN THE AIR```
fleet harbor
frank light
#

This man has a daughter now
This strategist has a child

Granted the child is another strategist but I felt that should be made clear for this context

magic mason
candid compass
#

adoptive child, but yeah

wheat cobalt
hollow spruce
#

I can't believe the princess of minnesota would do this

vivid wraith
# 
...Remains unseen
...Makes its voice heard
...Declares what is real
...Recognizes anything```
patent tiger
#

Horrifying

restive ridge
#

Beautiful

fleet harbor
#

I would reveal my own pstate properties but I am worried Genseric Dace may be watching this thread

#

Speaking of which, worst deceiver

#

-infinity/10

#

He knows what he did

patent tiger
#

Worst Deceiver is a highly coveted position

#

If I were a Deceiver (legally I said “if”) I’d be gunning for the top spot

frank light
#

Harsh competition

#

You’re gonna have to beat phaesel

patent tiger
#

I'm also gonna have to compete with the nonsense I cooked up with Morgana, which apparently includes metaphysical sexism now???

#

Deceivers are tough to out-awful

fleet harbor
#

All Excrucians are awful in their own special way

#

They are like snowflakes of terribleness

patent tiger
#

Considering what I know about Nobles, and especially about Imperators

fleet harbor
#

... you know what would be a cool estate

patent tiger
#

I may propose that that's just what happens when you can do miracles

fleet harbor
#

History

restive ridge
patent tiger
fleet harbor
#

I'm keeping that in my back pocket

patent tiger
#

But I have some Ideas™️ re Lithphrasia and potential angles there

fleet harbor
#

History would be so much fun for both Domain and Persona

#

Lesser Creation of History would be fucking wild

vivid wraith
#

horrifying!

obsidian dagger
#

from what I understand Nobilis also has touhou tier art

#

I might be totally wrong though

patent tiger
#

There's a Story™️ there

#

The short of it is - the art was specifically traced touhou fanart and that was a whole debacle

obsidian dagger
#

I remembered something about art and touhou and forgot the details.

fleet harbor
#

Yeah one of the main artists Jenna commissioned for 3e uh

#

Stole a whole bunch of stuff

#

It was a bad scene and it's why you can't get the original Nobilis 3e anymore

#

And why it took so long for Nobilis 3e to be available on DTRPG

#

(I think I may actually have the original colorful Nobilis 3e PDF lying around somewhere but)

wheat cobalt
#

also worst deceiver is absolutely Phasael Mery-Harumaph

#

no contest

rapid shore
#

but I thought "Forgetting" would be more interesting and still covers the same stuff

rapid shore
nocturne epoch
#

History is held by a muse in my games

#

ditto most of the muse-held estates

fleet harbor
#

Remind me what the deal with muses is?

nocturne epoch
#

and I was like uhhhhh

fleet harbor
#

Ah okay

#

I was trying to remember if there was something more

nocturne epoch
fleet harbor
#

All I could recall was the mention of nine muses in 3e

#

With the Power of Pop Music and the Power of Alternative Music

nocturne epoch
#

Ahhh yeah

#

so I have most of these knocking around

#

some might have noble successors by now

fleet harbor
#

But yeah I wasn't thinking of history as like an academic discipline >_>

hollow spruce
# 
History...
>Has happened
>Is being made
>Repeats itself
>Demands to be remembered 
>Is all too easily forgotten
nocturne epoch
#
  • is written by the victor
hollow spruce
#

nice nice

#

I do think it's interesting that Estates are like, actively affected by whoever the noble of said estate's perception is

#

Is ice a harsher and more dangerous thing in a world where the Power Of Ice is just not a fan of it?

rapid shore
#

I'd say not particularly

#

but its harshness and danger matters more

#

the ice is always ice, but the bits that are important are the properties

hollow spruce
#

Well alright but what is the line within 'this matters more'