Indie+Alternative Wargaming

[hollow crypt]

Also very sad the backpack railgun is illegal lol, it’s hysterical

[orchid tulip]

Well, both HMGs suppress, but one more low die count option to suppress with would be neat

[hollow crypt]

Ngl I’d also take a big multi-target one that just isn’t banned. Tis a weird way to run a game

[orchid tulip]

As it isn't fully out in retail, I'd say it's not fully up and running

[compact leaf]

UN gets one like that!
It's so unfair/s
(Unreleased though, coming soonish?)

[distant roost]

UN actually has some really buff multi target options in the volley grenade shoulder arms

[distant roost]

Also, I still got time tonight <t:1758150050:F> to run a learning game for folks that wanna get the Ember going on TTS

[sand sonnet]

I'd be interested in playing a learning game tonight.

[distant roost]

Yeah if you wanna draft up a list go for it and I can run the opposite faction, and I can stream so folks can watch

[sand sonnet]

300 points?

And while I'm enjoying the idea of GoF I'll stick to UN for a learning game.

[distant roost]

The thresholds are 600/900/1200 and we've been gaming at 900 so feel free to throw together a 900 UN list yeah

[sand sonnet]

900 it is.

[twin mountain]

@maiden ermine just made the funniest un list

[echo marten]

oh?

[twin mountain]

I won't spoil it so you guys can groan when you see it in action deployed against you

Up to him if he wants to share it

[maiden ermine]

I'm happy to share

[twin mountain]

Look at the top mech. Then look at the drones.

[distant roost]

I don't think the cooling backpacks stack and the Load premise sound at least

[maiden ermine]

why wouldn't they stack

[distant roost]

It counts the backpack as the part and you get 1 backpack is my read and +1 orange is +1 orange is my other read so it's plausible both ways to me

[twin mountain]

No it stacks

[distant roost]

Nice

[twin mountain]

Thijs is right

[distant roost]

the greatest sniper that sniped

[twin mountain]

You just get the extra backpacks when you use logistics beetles

[echo marten]

Okay so we have Team Refrigerators here.

[twin mountain]

They carry it around for you and hook you up

That's their entire point

[distant roost]

Just like the rules don't say a dog can't play basketball the rules don't say you're limited to 1 backpack yeah because I had a similar list with the load drones feeding the UN missile group user all battle

[twin mountain]

leave it to the dominions player to figure out a way to set up a communion in eop

😩

[maiden ermine]

lol

so true

[twin mountain]

<@&869240423116308500> I blame you all for this

[hollow crypt]

I’m too preoccupied by how nightmarish the melee mech is

[tender wadi]

Uhhhhhhh

[twin mountain]

top mech. look at the sniper rifle. then look at the backpack. then scroll way down to the drones at the bottom

you'll figure it out

[twin mountain]

oh that one's my creation

it's my quartz I've been terrorizing thijs and clem with for the last week

no modifications at all thijs just grabbed her, which is fair

[hollow crypt]

Sprint, lash, slash into hopefully chop. Sure it costs 2 link but that’s not real

[twin mountain]

yeah you can lash people to turn them around

[hollow crypt]

I mean yeah it seems very good

[twin mountain]

then just core them

it's as good as it looks

[tender wadi]

Wait do you just
Make everything eat all the lasers?

[twin mountain]

yes

the mech sits there with a bunch of bugs next to it and fires laser beams

[distant roost]

Yeah it's like 12 hits on a good day

[hollow crypt]

I mean honestly the overload cores are scary enough in their own right

[echo marten]

Full Auto from that SMG with the cooler support feels like it's going to be kinda disgusting, if the sniper mech loses its gun.

[pearl knot]

that is a gratifying amount of FREEM, but I confess I am a bit mystified what the Dominions connection is

[hollow crypt]

Also on-hits needing to be fully offset by dodge to be avoided is so messed up lol

[twin mountain]

it's a communion

[orchid tulip]

Imagine if RDL got a backpack drone

[tender wadi]

That being said, I'm glad Ashley introduced me to More Robots

[fast glade]

the use of communicants (drones) to power up the mage (laser gun)

[twin mountain]

thijs figured out how to set up a mech wargame communion

[fast glade]

i mean this is probably the intended use of them

[tender wadi]

Okay that's sick
But also what game is this?

[echo marten]

It's a communion. We have the Communion Master (Mech) and the Slaves (Drones)

[twin mountain]

@tender wadi yeah we're playing a ton of ember obsidian protocol here it's just very good

[fast glade]

not that I understand this game very well

[twin mountain]

we play like every other day?

[tender wadi]

Oh that's the one with the like, all the cards and all the mech bits on magnets?

[orchid tulip]

Imagine extra "coolant" on this

[pearl knot]

... oh no

[tender wadi]

Oh yeah it is

Okay I 100% need to check that out

[fast glade]

also yanno maybe I'm stupid but it's only today that I thought about the sabbaths and how they're exclusively blood magic and realized that's a little bit questionable

[twin mountain]

this is what the game looks like in play ^

it's armored core chess

[hollow crypt]

It is very sad both arms of this guy are banned

[tender wadi]

With cool drones

[twin mountain]

@maiden ermine @maiden ermine @maiden ermine . i haev a name for your mech. or your list. either one

you should call it

20% cooler

[hollow crypt]

Also that torso doesn’t do anything for that guy

[twin mountain]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_Yuo2uan_U

[orchid tulip]

It lets him smoke after obliterating you

[maiden ermine]

I was thinking of chilly bins

[hollow crypt]

It’s only a firing tick

[echo marten]

Supporting Arm is banned? That...really sucks, as it feels like a Really Basic Thing to have a part for 'Oh yeah, I don't want a special part here so I can two handed weapon better'.

[hollow crypt]

I do think the hmg + shoulder railgun on that torso is extremely solid though

[tender wadi]

So uhh
Obsidian Protocol
Where do I find the rules?

[twin mountain]

pin

[distant roost]

RDL has supporting legs that come with a bonus arm for that purpose turns out!

[hollow crypt]

It’s one of the kickstarter exclusive things so word on the street is it won’t be legal for tournament play

[tender wadi]

Thank you!

[twin mountain]

they should just print basic shit for everyone yes

[echo marten]

Oh yeah, I know it's kickstarter exclusive, it just feels Weirdly Mundane and Basic to be one of them.

[hollow crypt]

Tbf the most basic arm for RDL is cheaper and also the concussion device

And has parry dice

[distant roost]

Yeah it's super swole for being the cheapest left arm

[hollow crypt]

I think it’s only (only) 4 armour but still, it’s a goodun

[distant roost]

5 armor, 2 parry, it literally slaps

[echo marten]

...I wonder what the tankiest melee mech you can make is. Just go full Brawling Knight.

[hollow crypt]

Oh lmao

[hollow crypt]

RDL has some very tough bastards

There’s a torso that, if I’ve been reading it right, lets you guarantee a die roll when you roll your armour

And then there’s the riposte arm, which is also a grappling hook, and is very spooky

[distant roost]

Yeah that one is super buff and heinously expensive

[hollow crypt]

It is yeah

Sadly you can only have one shield because the devs are cowards

But rdl also has the DC backpack

[silver wren]

What does this have to do with dominions?

[orchid tulip]

Devs are also cowards by not giving GoF double claws

[silver wren]

I can't tell what is supposed to be a sniper rifle or a backpack

Ok I found the sniper rifle

[jade finch]

would it be easier for you to teach if you play or can i try my hand as well?

[silver wren]

I can't find anything called a backpack?

[jade finch]

the CSC-60, and all slots in the same column

[silver wren]

Oh, "coolers" are backpacks?

[jade finch]

cooler sits in the backpack slot is the better description

[silver wren]

Ok so as far as I can tell you get a bunch of yellow when you fire a laser

What's yellow

[jade finch]

yellow means small/frequent hit dice, sec lemme find the dice breakdown

[silver wren]

So... You have a bunch of backpacks that make your laser bigger?

[echo marten]

A player managed to find a way to make a communion with a tonne of cooler drones supercharging the laser mech.

[silver wren]

Hmm. Ok I see how you get there but it's definitely not intuitive when you have no idea what the images mean lmao

Also that's like, half of what communions do

[orchid tulip]

50% communion is more communion than 0% communion

[silver wren]

That's true

[orchid tulip]

Note: I do not what communion is in this context

[silver wren]

You can shackle mages to a big mage to make the big mage a bigger mage and spread the cost of the magic they cast to the little makes

Mages

[jade finch]

concept in dominion, winged created a breach so both obsidian protocol players and dominion players get some good 'ol morning confusion

[twin mountain]

https://tenor.com/view/tenten-kakumei-anisphia-wynn-palletia-anis-magirevo-yuri-gif-27641021

[silver wren]

Or you can shackle a big mage to some little mages to only minimally make them better at their job but make them able to cast spells almost forever

There's also a bunch of random side effects that are sometimes insanely important like sharing buffs between them

[echo marten]

Hey you forgot the other important part of communions: Helping Iki accidentally kill thier own mage corp because they can't do maths

[silver wren]

Yes the mages being shackled act as batteries and if you uh, over use them, they die

[signal birch]

Blame it one the spellcasting ai.

[silver wren]

Eh sometimes it's worth killing them

[echo marten]

I wish I could but I'm a tnn player. My brain is too smooth for astral magic stuff. XD

[jade finch]

back to OP: hey during army creation, can multiple mechs use the same part model? i assumed yes since the physical boxes come with multiple models of parts

[signal birch]

BTW, what game is it that caused this mass summoning?

[echo marten]

Considering we're looking at team 'coolers for everyone', I'm pretty sure yes.

[jade finch]

Ember: Obsidian Protocol is a chinese mech wargame that Thijs made a build for that got winged to summon Dominion players

see most recent pin for an infodump

[twin mountain]

dominions 5

[jade finch]

right, should've been obvious

[twin mountain]

oh I see

ember obsidian protocol

the wargame is ember obsidian protocol, it's an armored core 1v1 pvp wargame on a chess board with cool mechs that outrun missiles and cut each other in half with laser swords

but also @maiden ermine figured out a way to get a bunch of drones to all pray around one sniper mech to give it The Big Snipe

which was so funny I had to ping the dominions crowd

[jade finch]

(1v1 as in player count, not as in unit count per side)

[twin mountain]

(thanks)

[signal birch]

Ty, will probably have a closer look when able 😉

[jade finch]

ayy, more the merrier

[orchid tulip]

Only limit is Pilots

[jade finch]

makes sense

[twin mountain]

• you can't use multiple pilots with the same pilot ID (it's the number)
• every mech must have at least 1 torso + 1 chassis + at least 1 arm (+ 1 pilot)

[jade finch]

man, my RDL squad is like... just skipping leg day

[twin mountain]

that's it

you could just bring like 20 drones as your legal list

it would be very stupid but it's legal

[signal birch]

If the same praying squad can't feed a large amount of Big snipes, it isn't a communion, but it is still funny

[jade finch]

oooh, i misunderstood the detail then, thought you'd need both arms filled

[twin mountain]

nah 1 arm is fine

run it mechwarrior style

be a gun on legs

[jade finch]

that might afford me some legs

(granted, i'm RDL, what do i need legs for)

[umbral prawn]

In Ember Obsidian Protocol, what happens if you reach the automatic phase and there's a missile with no targets in range?

[twin mountain]

it blows up, good question

if munitions with delayed seeker actions can't find a target they're destroyed

this creates some very interesting, like, game design hoops

[umbral prawn]

Thanks 👍

[twin mountain]

so here's how mines work:

the part generates a projectile, and the projectile generates a drone in the delay phase

and the drone has an automatic seeker action

so it doesn't die on no targets

funny but it works

[umbral prawn]

Missile gameplay is very intriguing to me

[twin mountain]

genuinely extremely cool and hot take everyone should steal ember's missile and drone systems

I love how they're set up as these telegraphed dodgeable systems on the board

very very cool

[umbral prawn]

Have you seen night sky falling's missile mechanics?

[twin mountain]

no! :O

tell meeee

[distant roost]

Yeah if you're free tonight we can pit you vs Ecclection and I'll do board setup, draft up a 900 list and I can do board prep before session

[twin mountain]

btw hey everybody @umbral prawn is a creator of a very cool "grid" based wargame called night sky falling involving space waaar

https://tenor.com/view/space-core-portal2-portal-spacecore-gif-8264616

@jade finch @sand sonnet I'm happy to help teach you two yeah

and we can just steal lists posted here

anyway

https://nightskyfalling.com/

[umbral prawn]

https://nightskyfalling.com/latest-release

[twin mountain]

though ooh is nsf turning into an rpg?

👀

omg

night sky falling warship

nsfw

[umbral prawn]

It always was!

[twin mountain]

:O

exciting

[umbral prawn]

I did a convention playtest a few weeks ago!

[distant roost]

@jade finch If you still wanna run this RDL list I can get that prepped as a TTS object easy
#1161730220164911187 message

[jade finch]

lol guess what's on my other monitor

[twin mountain]

omgggg

that's so cool

[jade finch]

ok so, mech part cards, mech standees, pilot dials, drone cards, drone standees, munition cards, munition standees, ammo tokens
did i miss anything for the squad setup?

[distant roost]

Those are the big ones yeah

Some of the mech part cards have discard card variants that you deploy under the part card and use when you use the "Discard" swift action to drop something so that's a separate TTS card bin

[jade finch]

gotcha

[distant roost]

You can tell if a mech part (usually arms) has a discard variant in the army builder because it'll have a little two rotating arrows icon next to the card so you can view the discard card

[jade finch]

ok it saved

[tame brook]

There is so much here, this looks incredibly cool...

[twin mountain]

perijove is v cool

you should share it with allll your frieeends

https://tenor.com/view/rwby-rwby-chibi-weiss-ruby-hypnosis-gif-15097360

[umbral prawn]

Come to the 7th fleet server and play it sometime!

[orchid tulip]

Poaching members from other servers, smh

[sand sonnet]

Do Electronic Attacks break Low Profile/Optical Camo?

[jade finch]

aw man i should read up on electrical stuff

[twin mountain]

any action without silence breaks low profile / optical camo

[jade finch]

ok new discovery

can someone find the card for any missile munition? don't have TTS handy RN

[twin mountain]

posted some earlier in this thread

[jade finch]

lemme scroll up

nvm, am bad at reading, this only talks about drone movement but 3.2.2 mentions movement type/unit height

arrow: ground unit, plane: flying unit, missile: aerial unit (for drones)

so we now have a SLIGHTLY easier time differentiating unit height for drones without having to refer to model bases

[twin mountain]

this isn't on missile cards

it's only on drones with maneuver capacity

[jade finch]

correct, it's only labeled on drones, i misread

[twin mountain]

yeah

[orchid tulip]

Do we have any projectiles that don't detonate/fizzle in delayed phase?

[twin mountain]

many detonate immediately in projectile phase

[jade finch]

@distant roost @sand sonnet forgot i got a meeting starting 30 minutes prior to the announced start time, which has a chance to run longer than 30 mins. ought to not be TOO late but if i'm more than 15 minutes late, feel free to downgrade my participation to spectator and start with you two playing each other.

[sand sonnet]

I'm in no rush and can probably wait for a bit if you're thinking it won't be like a two hour meeting.

[distant roost]

Yeah just in the time it takes to do board prep and TTS UI overview that should buy 15 minutes

[hollow crypt]

There’s a gof one with crusing

[compact leaf]

You can just take the type 55 shield too

It's a freehand and also like
The cheapest melee attack RDL has, I think

[jade finch]

oh dang i failed to realize supporting arms aren't in core or cav...

[distant roost]

Yeah you can sub that out easy for a 30 point shield arm

[jade finch]

gave it exactly that and allowed a different mech to enjoy leg day

made some updates, will change my TTS squad as well down the line

now that i think about it... has anyone attempted to make a squad with more drones than mechs?

if yes, has the lack of full control of all drones felt hindering?

[orchid tulip]

I haven't done a RDL or UN list with more drones than mechs, partly because it's a mech game not a drone game partly because not fully controlling them all feels like it would jumble most plans

[sand sonnet]

Seems like that's the GoF's whole thing though.

And I look forward to mucking about with that once I have a better understanding of the game.

[orchid tulip]

GoF counters by generating more orders per mech

Command Generation X and Command Coordination X do some heavy lifting

I really wanna try my 2 mech 5 drone list, but only like 2 mech parts are in TTS atm

[sand sonnet]

Visibility is for drones and losers.

[jade finch]

what the.... accidentally uploaded ver 2 instead of newest

[distant roost]

The lowest profiles

[sand sonnet]

Alternatively, you can actually get four mechs in UN:

[twin mountain]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0h-j4qFR3wg

[sand sonnet]

Instructions unclear, couldn't find the necronomicon part for UN.

The nail gun has no business having 2R though.

[twin mountain]

@sand sonnet @jade finch when're you guys playing agian? an hour from now?

[jade finch]

roughly, i'm expecting closer to 70 to 80 minutes from now for my actual start time due to having a meeting i didn't remember when i signed up

[distant roost]

Yeah the plan was I was gonna boot up a TTS server and get Ecllection set up at <t:1758150018:f> while Izen wraps up the meeting so it's a chill time

Winged's a great host and is happy to lead the process so I'll bring popcorn

[distant roost]

@twin mountain Gang's all here, I can fire up the TTS server if you need more time

[twin mountain]

Waah

Sorry yeah I just fell asleep like a moron

I'll be there

[twin mountain]

https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/401978/undaunted-2200-callisto @sand sonnet @distant roost

https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91HcnZObWiL._AC_SL1500_.jpg

[distant roost]

My next UN list:

[modern snow]

undaunted my beloved

[twin mountain]

haha yeah we're in voice talking about like, wargame adjacent stuff I think fucks and drops the diorama stuff for pure tokens

[maiden ermine]

crazy to me to not run the overcharge backpack on quartz

[orchid tulip]

Quartz regens Link, ye? And Overcharge let's you use link to get extra ticks?

[maiden ermine]

yeah

[orchid tulip]

Ye Quartz and Overcharge = match made in heaven

Would be fun to see future "deserter" pilots, like Spike running for GoF and Quartz for RDL

[hollow crypt]

You could shoot 6 grenades in 1 turn with the OC backpack 😌

[compact leaf]

Mmm
Do we know if we're allowed to combine two extra action ticks for one action, though?

[orchid tulip]

How is the 2nd extra generated?

[compact leaf]

If you're spending two link on the OC pack, you get 2

Reading the rules though, looks like it does work?

So yeah, you could overcharge to throw 6 grenades if you wanted

[hollow crypt]

I believe the extra ticks arent, as it were, extra ticks

[orchid tulip]

The OC aren Extra Ticks if you go on the wording of the OC pack

[hollow crypt]

Yeah, they’re not capital E extra ticks

[orchid tulip]

Kinda interesting with the definition of Long action requires 2 action ticks and 1 maneuver tick that OCPack won't let you maneuver and then long action

[distant roost]

Need the link for dice rerolls is my logic

[orchid tulip]

But she will always regain 1 at end of turn

[distant roost]

I'll be kicking people in the shins and diving task objectives, there'll be plenty of opportunity to get shot at, yes

[twin mountain]

Yes

Even if they're extra we can combine extras

They just can't combine with regular

[distant roost]

Overload katana is the blender

[orchid tulip]

Speaking of Katana, does the Slash from Chop count as using Slash on the card or could you use Slash as an action?

Or go Slash->Chop-> Free Slash?

[distant roost]

Yeah you can go slash into overload tick chop into free slash long as chop gets the part destroy

[orchid tulip]

This combo could be fun

I think the ability is on the wrong Pilot in the builder

[distant roost]

You're right, Onyx has an entirely different ability in the mod and spreadsheet

[orchid tulip]

I think the owner of the ability is Sealock

[distant roost]

Yeah the spreadsheet confirms it for Sealock

[orchid tulip]

Going Flog->Chop->Slash->Slash could be dope

[orchid tulip]

Or Lash->Flog->Chop->Slash

[twin mountain]

excellent pvp alternating activation game ^

[compact leaf]

Yar that was the conclusion we came to 😼
Thanks winged

Oh hey uhh
Infinity people

[modern snow]

Sacha for everyone!!!

[compact leaf]

Their new season is here

Bnuy :3

[modern snow]

it is a little weird that even the CA factions get Sacha though

[twin mountain]

@distant roost @maiden ermine @sand sonnet @jade finch caught myself making and teaching a critical cover rules error:

only indestructible terrain provides terrain protection

https://random0v0.github.io/AmadeusEmber/AmadeusEmber_web/data/map/en/Hot_Zone.png

crushable terrain is all 1 inch high, no cover bonuses at all

in a similar manner: drones are just too short to provide unit cover

it's just mechs and indestructible terrain that provides cover

the map is a lot more open for firing actions than I initially thought

[distant roost]

That makes it easier to figure out who's body blocking yeah

[sand sonnet]

Also after learning that some parts are optional here is a horrifying terrible idea:

[twin mountain]

yeah you're absolutely heading in the direction I think our meta needs to eat to the face

this is totally what I was talking about in voice yesterday

[trail fulcrum]

Eat to the face

Ooooh

Okay

I have 7 chassis

Tempted to do this to my local IRL meta lol

[umbral prawn]

So, the only thing destructible terrain does is act as an obstruction for ground drones?

[twin mountain]

also mechs

remember, crush movement stops movement

anyone who's played the game can tell how deeply annoying it is

[distant roost]

UN Turtle Barricade keeps on winning

[orchid tulip]

One would hope that being ustoppable would let you move after crush, but sadly it does not

[hollow crypt]

I will admit that the 3 armour chassis on the melee murder machine does sketch me out

[orchid tulip]

10 dodge and a parry tho

Add in Optical and Low Profile

[compact leaf]

There is the one problem: all of these mechs will die the turn they lose a part

And can only lose 1

[compact leaf]

Oh my god wait they're all just as durable as the drones 😭

(very slightly more based on dice, but still-)

[distant roost]

I think physically moving everybody on the board for that team is going to be a bit of a logistical issue because of body blocking and crushing

Black box pickup primary task is going to be tough too

[sand sonnet]

Drop the rifle, grab the box.

But it's a lot of activations to deal with, and a lot of ability to bring dice to bear.

You could drop a couple drones or a mech and pad out cheap extra arms if you wanted to.

But just kinda taking the design direction in the totally opposite direction of what we've seen so far.

[distant roost]

Yeah exactly, that's the situation, and you've got enough spare points you can designate a box runner by running a freehand cleaver right arm or a concussion shield left arm instead of one of the riflemen, so it's solid as is

My first UN game I ran into that exact situation where I had to drop fancy guns to pick up the boxes and it ruled

[compact leaf]

I do fear that RDL horde list kinda falls into "that Savana master list I don't want to play against" territory, unless you're very good about choosing your initiative dials quickly

But..
It's less egregious than that, thankfully

[sand sonnet]

Most of them don't have a lot of choices on that front.

You really only have a couple of viable dial options because you have the default actions and in most cases a firing action.

[distant roost]

Figuring out weekend scheduling - would anyone like to play Ember on the TTS on <t:1758373200:D> or <t:1758459600:D>? Folks that hadn't played, I can run through the ropes

[orchid tulip]

I'd be up for some Ember

[distant roost]

I've got availability between <t:1758380400:t> and <t:1758398400:t> both days if you want to pencil in a time

[orchid tulip]

Let's say <t:1758380400:f> ?

[distant roost]

Sounds good!

[potent wyvern]

Woah big robo

[orchid tulip]

Is that a big or small can in the background?

[twin mountain]

the can is 3 inches tall and therefore blocks line of sight

[orchid tulip]

More using to get extra info on the scale of mechs

Is it 330ml or 500ml?

[twin mountain]

the scale's in the rulebook

[orchid tulip]

That only tells me width and barely. It mostly tells me base sizes

[twin mountain]

I feel like "exact measurement of square base dimension" is more than barely

[orchid tulip]

Yes, the big square they stand on is 75mm, but the feet of the mechs are not at filling like the reference picture. And instead of answering the question (big or small can) you start digging in the rulebook for something that I have looked at before and doesn't answer the base question

[twin mountain]

Eku how the hell am I going to know what the exact size of the fucking can is. How is the can going to be a better reference point for the mechs than like everything else at the front of the picture

You could also just google the answer to this question about mech sizes

It's a commercial product someone has probably answered it

here is a 330 ml can: https://www.ororabeverage.com/sites/default/files/2022-05/orora-classic-can-330ml.png

here is also a 330 ml can: https://www.ororabeverage.com/sites/default/files/2022-05/orora-sleek-can-330ml-model.png

[orchid tulip]

SOrry for assuming that a picture you shared was yours

[twin mountain]

eku, even if it was a picture I shared, that was mine, why would I know the exact dimensions of a can someone probably brought and then threw away?

like, even assuming I glanced at the can and found the exact number of mls, I'd have to cross reference it with the actual brand to find the exact can dimensions

and why would the can dimensions be more useful than everything else in the image I pointed at. like I get that you're trying to find the mech dimensions

I'm trying to help

you don't have to be a prick about me (correctly) reading your intent and trying to find the best reference points for you

like, here's a can in my house:

https://bfasset.costco-static.com/U447IH35/as/gv4tb9xnrj5bncj7qhhn9j3v/2220682-894__1?auto=webp&amp;format=jpg&width=600&height=600&fit=bounds&canvas=600,600

here's another can from the same brand:

https://www.lamarguerite.ca/cdn/shop/files/lemonpellegrinoweb.png?v=1710331774

[orchid tulip]

I said I'm sorry, and will henceforth never utter a word in here

[sand cloak]

I need to buy Necromoulds when it restocks

Because I wanna get airclay and paint up disgusting clay freaks.

[autumn ingot]

Where can I get these minis? Sorry for the tag btw

[twin mountain]

not sure, check the ember obsidian protocol discord

[autumn ingot]

Got it

[trail fulcrum]

Your friendly local game store if they stock it

[autumn ingot]

But I am not sure what they are called

[trail fulcrum]

Where do you live

Like its a game in retail

[autumn ingot]

United States

[trail fulcrum]

https://www.ignitioncoregames.com/product-page/rdl-core-ember-obsidian-protocol

But like

Tarrifs so ??

[autumn ingot]

Got it.

hmm seems to be out of stock atm

[trail fulcrum]

Yeah tarrifs

[autumn ingot]

OOF

[trail fulcrum]

Like this game and everuthing is entirely made in China

The English rulebook is a translation

[autumn ingot]

Yeah makese sense.

[compact leaf]

Iirc it's mostly just Ignition Core (US) and Tabletop Renaissance (Canada) that supply the entirety of NA

But uhh..
Yeah..
Tariffs..

[autumn ingot]

Welp back to Zona Alpha and no giant robots for me 🙁

[sand sonnet]

Have you looked at Mobile Arms?

[autumn ingot]

I have not

Mobile arms looks cool.

[modern snow]

Yeah Mobile Arms IS cool! 😤

[orchid tulip]

Gonna break this to mention that my LGS has gotten Ember in stock

[compact leaf]

Hell yeah

[orchid tulip]

Only RDL, playmat and dice so far

[twin mountain]

give us the tts moodddd

https://tenor.com/view/eric-andre-let-me-wahh-wild-go-gif-13490041

[orchid tulip]

Mid Game report, 11 points for me and 7 for Clem. I have taken out one of Clems mechs and Clem has disabled one of my HMGs

[orchid tulip]

Game ended 13 to me, 7 for Clem with missiles claiming a large portion of Clems forces

[distant roost]

This was today's UN list for the Terminal Hacking primary task with Behead secondary task (Eku gets 5 for beating Onyx) and Test unit (points for destroys by designated unit Sealock, Clem), it turns out Intercept 1 is not enough Intercept versus Missiles Yes

[orchid tulip]

My RDL list

[distant roost]

It also turns out you need a free hand to huck Pholcus mines so Panzer had to drop the shotgun to do work so the list is gonna be tweaked

[orchid tulip]

I gave Clem the option of HMG or Stratus

[compact leaf]

Hmmm
PNET meta has very shooty RDL and weirdly wide UN.. interesting..

[orchid tulip]

I enjoy zone control thru missiles

Tho I need to tweak a bit for mobility, electro and action econ

[distant roost]

The original play I was gonna run was a bit deeper like so, the wide list today was more a thought experiment on long range control
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1161730220164911187/1418063968832061500/Projectile_Network.webp?ex=68d00e3c&is=68cebcbc&hm=87ae8603b3ea3ef2d5f7ff298e5b2ec2fb82f6cabe50a66934d58acd7fa55aa5&=&format=webp&width=867&height=1006

[compact leaf]

Interesting..

I do think this is the scarier list

Or well.
It definitely has a more actionable gameplan

I could be reading things completely wrong though

[twin mountain]

https://youtu.be/ntedXdJHPZM

I'd love to discuss scenario design with you guys sometime

Because I feel like that's easily the part of my wargame designs that's the most perfunctory and uninteresting

I make games with interesting combat systems and then ... I dunno, control points?

Very undeliberate design

[left onyx]

Good ol' zone control, sit on "control points" to earn "VP"

[twin mountain]

Genuinely one of the most interesting scenario designs I've seen in a tabletop wargame comes from... Chess 2

By David sirlin

😩

You win it you can advance your king past the midline

Damn does that make for some fascinating and early wincons

[sand cloak]

Scenario: Escort the Super Heavy Unit past enemy lines in order to prep for an advanced assault

[left onyx]

And it's also not just tabletop games

[twin mountain]

Oh?

[left onyx]

Like look at Nebulous, 99% of games are played on control

Not station capture or CTF

And if you look at Neb's CTF mode, Nebulous isn't really designed for it at all? It's kinda just shoved in there

[twin mountain]

Oh yeah. Absolutely

And I don't want to do that

I think that's the weakest part of my game right now

[left onyx]

Station Capture has potential but it defaults to no time limit, which makes the attacking team's only lose condition losing every ship

[twin mountain]

Like I think the wargames I am taking inspiration from the most right now are ironwood and battalion because both:

• have zero scenario variance
• there's one extremely important mega scenario the whole game is built around and you must absolutely pay attention to it always. Always.

They're not even checkmate games really

[left onyx]

And that being the default also makes it hard to even design maps around station capture, b/c a station that's hard to cap in 10 minutes might be easy to cap in 20

[twin mountain]

One is a race to 3 relic escapes vs 3 fortresses

The other is deck attrition as you try to force a unit through middle to decapitate the enemy xamp

But in both cases the wincons tower over the game and inform every interaction you have with your opponent

And the game is not interested in making a second map called Twisted Treeline that nobody will play

Like I appreciate singular focused scenarios for a whole game

Moonstone and godtear are similar but they allow a bit of terrain variance

[compact leaf]

Oooh you found this video too!
It's very good
...and also vindicates my dislike of Biotechvore

[twin mountain]

Tell me more about btv

[left onyx]

These also both sound like asymmetric scenarios

[trail fulcrum]

Dancing on control points is the wargame bread and butter

[twin mountain]

Battalion is symmetric

[trail fulcrum]

Which was a massive improvement to the previous just table your opponen t

Well for like competetive wargames

The old world still does kill your opponent

[left onyx]

Oh is it double assault where each team have a unit they're trying to force through faster?

[compact leaf]

The mission itself is actually pretty simple.
You just want to see your opponent's army dead.
The weirdness comes from the BTV zones, areas that forces anything standing in them at the end of a turn to have to make a save to or else take damage (which usually means death)
These zones encompass your deployment zone and a go a little bit further up the board beyond that. In some versions of the scenario, the zone also gets larger as the game goes on.

I think the latest version worked like that?

[left onyx]

Oh it's the Fortnite ring

[compact leaf]

Ye

You are heavily incentivized to push everything you can up the board, because everything that dies to the evil zone is free points for your opponent

And infinity is not a game where every piece is actually able to do that, plus poor table design can sometimes mean your opponent is able to make it impossible for you.

There are far too many variables that go into actually having a fun and balanced experience with the scenario imo

So it probably shouldn't be played at tournaments, where tables have to be designed with multiple scenarios in mind.

[twin mountain]

Huhhhh

Interesting, thanks

[compact leaf]

Oh, sorry
ITS 16's version also had one more way to score points, which was accomplishing secret objectives

But uh
Yeah.
That's BTV
I hope that was coherent?

[trail fulcrum]

I kinda want to make weird custom missions for 40k because it'd what everyone plays:(

[compact leaf]

Whilst we're on the topic of Infinity scenarios though
I do actually really like the weirdness of the new ones

So uh

Stay tuned on maybe some more in-depth opinions on those when I get to playing all of them

Like
We have asymmetric scoring and abilities now
That's unheard of (from a scenario standpoint)

[tepid steeple]

Really excited about new infinity season

[distant roost]

Scenario design is the real zazzle in a war game because in a team deathmatch kind of situation that can be solved for pretty easy and so the non-shooty scenarios are what shake up army lists from being "stand and bang" and more "well somebody's got to go forward"

[distant roost]

What's new in the new Infinity season? Do they come out with new scenarios?

[compact leaf]

Yeah!

[tepid steeple]

Yeah!

[compact leaf]

...

[tepid steeple]

The whole thing is new apart from like one mission

[compact leaf]

These are the first proper new ones in a while though

[tepid steeple]

Jinx

[distant roost]

That's good they keep shaking it up

[compact leaf]

7 are new, 3 are returning

[tepid steeple]

Oh really, thats fair I didnt consider stuff older than last season haha

And some of them are kinda reworks

[compact leaf]

Evacuation, last launch and B-pong are the only old ones still around, not counting direct action

And yeah some of them are reworks

Like

Hardlock is just capture and protect but with consoles

[tepid steeple]

Oh yeah I think that just slipped my mind fully lmaoo

[compact leaf]

But then you get stuff like crossing lines XD

Or Critical intervention

Those are pretty special

Look at them DZs

[tepid steeple]

Provisions is very supplies but its super interesting how they’ve changed it and then the diagonal deployment 😱

[compact leaf]

Mhm!

[tepid steeple]

Crossing lines looks so wild

I also really like the sound of zone of interest

[compact leaf]

Zone of Interest also does the diagonal deployment iirc

And yeah it's very compelling :3

Corporate appropriation is another funny one

[tepid steeple]

Especially with all the various specialist bonuses being removed in favour of the stacking failure correction

[compact leaf]

But I really do think the standout for this season is probably Critical Intervention

It's
So interesting

[tepid steeple]

Zone of interest actually using the hacker you use is so cool

[compact leaf]

And it gives you a new reason to invest in a high WIP LT

[tepid steeple]

Thats the assym objective room?

Its so wild

[compact leaf]

Mhm!

I'm excited to try these out

I haven't actually found a single person who's super hateful about any of these in particular either

There were some missions in the last few packs that everyone despised

[tepid steeple]

Im interested to see how the evacuation changes play out cause that is a hard mission

[compact leaf]

Evac has always been hard, yeah

We shall see how things go..

[tepid steeple]

Corporate appropriation is really wild

Panoplies are fun though. I tried to bring a triphammer to firefight but it didnt manage to get to any 😭 it did roll mim-6 for booty though so

[distant roost]

This is a really good break down of good scenario design in that you the scenario writer want to encourage gameplay loops that aren't "sit in a hole and use indirect fire"

[compact leaf]

Aw man..

Baby cutter really didn't do anything?
Surely it did something with mim-6 alone

[tepid steeple]

Oh it heavy rocket launchered the heck out of adil’s out of position fire team

It just took a few orders doing that so I tucked it away till next turn…and then find out I forgot everything is a deployment zone parachutist in firefight and got backstabbed by a koga ninja 😭

I also used an obvious lieutenant forgetting that was an objective, but then still won 8-2 so,,

But I think thats also the thing with the triphammer is its cheap enough to not ruin your day if it goes down

[twin mountain]

Yeah I'm very much a fan of like, two kinds of scenario systems:

• when you enter this game you must roll a random scenario and map using this precise algorithm. Your list must be able to handle every situation. (Ember, dropfleet, etc)
• The game is hard locked and balanced around one (1) very specific map and scenario. Optimize to hell, the game can handle it, variance is in how many ways people can approach this one goal. (Battalion)

[twin mountain]

As a counter example - games like chess generate aggressive interactive play both for newbies (cause it's intuitively correct) and veterans (it actually is correct)

With no terrain and no objective beyond "kill the other guy"

Good focused game design can handle this very well

Like, look at the bastion of modern tabletop turn based pvp gaming: card games

Nobody needs to convince mtg players to swing at each other

They're just gonna do it

Wargames are unique and uniquely bad in that they're often trying to capture specific simulationist vibes that make defender advantage far far too strong

And hey trench warfare existed irl too because of exactly that reason

[compact leaf]

Yar, cheap TAG is a threat your opponent has to deal with, but ultimately not something you care that much about losing

[distant roost]

Yeah while lobbing missiles down range over a mountain against their missiles is "realistic" it sure gets old fast

Ember makes lobbing missiles down range pretty great because you can both juke the missiles or shoot 'em down

[native portal]

Simply play historicals before the proliferation of truly effective missile weapons :^)

Every game becomes who gets to charge

[distant roost]

I will treasure my 72 tiny d6 (36 red and 36 black) for such charges

[compact leaf]

Missiles being interactive helps a lot, yeah.
That and they're more about controlling space than actually killing stuff, instead of being super uninteractive alpha strike tools

[tawny sandal]

Cavalry troops hidden in the flanks vibrating wildly in anticipation of the sick charge they’re gonna get to do

[native portal]

To the point that making them wait is somebody's job

And getting them to stop was the difference between a bad general and a good one

Cromwell, asshole that he was, was particularly effective because his cavalry actually reformed instead of running off to murder people and steal everything not nailed down

[twin mountain]

omg really?

[native portal]

A big part of a cavalry officer's job is making sure your horsemen don't just fucking go for it because they wanna fight

[twin mountain]

incredible

[native portal]

Captain De Brack of the famous Red Lancers of the Imperial Guard blamed himself for the Guard cavalry becoming involved. As he later recorded:

I shouted ‘The English are lost! The position to which they have been thrown back demonstrates this most clearly…One false move and their army is ours!’

My words which were spoken in a loud voice could be easily heard by some of the officers at the front of the regiment who pushed forward to join our group. The detachments on the right followed these officers, who were in turn followed by others trying to maintain the alignment of the troops, and there were also followed by the Chasseurs of the Guard. Although they all moved only a few paces to the right, it seemed more than that from the left hand side and all of a sudden the brigade of Dragoons and Grenadiers [a Cheval] thought that the order to charge had been given, …it set off and we followed.

One dude gets hype, people push forward to see what's going on

Left wing goes 'oh we're going in? Word'

[twin mountain]

omg

@fast glade

[native portal]

Right wing goes 'oh shit, left wing's going in? Word'

[twin mountain]

😩

[fast glade]

yup yup

impetuous noble cavalry doing shit they're not supposed to do, tale old as time

though I guess at that point it's not really noble cavalry, but, still, socially prestigious positions

[native portal]

Yep. Give a soldier a horse and he'll look down on you :^)

[echo marten]

I do love how much tactics is 'nobody knows what's going on and is trying to interpret their own allies, not just their enemies'

[native portal]

In particular in this battle, a ridge hid a lot of infantry and Ney mistook a regiment or two falling back as a much more general retreat

Only for a precipitous cavalry action to run into A Lot Of Infantry In Square

[hollow crypt]

Yeah, he did the murdering and stealing after the battle

[left onyx]

Sometimes being a general really is like playing an autobattler

You set up all the pieces and then cross your fingers and wait

Micro is a junior officer's game

[echo marten]

I would like to play a game where it actively conceals your allies stuff, not just your enemies. It would likely word best with some sort of 'Everyone's trying to win but they're trying to win and get the most loot after the battle' aspect.

[left onyx]

If it was in a campaign setting, you could also make letting them loot at least a little be important b/c it lets them buy better gear

[tawny sandal]

I’ve seen some rather neat systems where you give an order to the unit and then role to see if they follow it, or if they misinterpret it and do a few pre-set orders instead

[sudden halo]

That's basically the gameplay of Warmaster.

[fallen rune]

A lot of maybe even most historical battles were basically autobattlers

[twin mountain]

Dominions continuing to be most realistic wargame ever

[arctic hollow]

most realistic wargame always and forever rock paper scissors

[distant roost]

Particularly if you play the variant where someone can throw dynamite

[compact leaf]

Finally had time to puzzle my way through the Warcrow rulebook

And I have to be honest

This is still less confusing than the one for Infinity..

So..
Bonus points for that, I guess

Is annoying that some integral rules changes (namely characters leaving units, tinge and spellcasting) are still imprisoned within the FAQ

But..
It's not as bad as I thought it'd be, to be honest.

[twin mountain]

🫂

till u deserve better im sorry

[compact leaf]

My taste is clearly only games with weird rulebooks

That and I only play games my locals are playing

...which has lately been ember, warcrow, and infinity

[tepid steeple]

Wanna play warcrow 😭

Hopefully this week

[compact leaf]

We get our first game on Thursday!

[tepid steeple]

Have fun!!!!

[compact leaf]

We hope we can wrap our head around Feudom..

[twin mountain]

honestly that is a pretty fantastic selection so you're eating

[compact leaf]

Games are great!
Rulebooks though...

Need a bit of work (at least Infinity N5 has the wiki back up)

[sand sonnet]

I just got a demo of Warccrow yesterday, interesting game, but annoying that I can't buy the faction I like on it's own.

[tepid steeple]

My partner and I were in a 4 player game of moonstone a couple weeks ago that was really fun

[compact leaf]

Oh, what faction are you looking at?

[twin mountain]

moonstooone

[compact leaf]

(I can probably tell you when it'll get an individual starter release)

[sand sonnet]

Feudom

[compact leaf]

Ah

November next year, at the latest.

Unless you can find someone to split with you

Thankfully, it's very easy to find people who like scions

[sand sonnet]

If I had a local that would take the other half of the starter I would but everyone here likes knights.

[twin mountain]

moonstone: excellent reference for integrated scenario design

every game is about everyone being a grubby little fuck who wants them shiny rocks

[tepid steeple]

The dynamic with multiple players and the much more tense sudden death rounds is really interesting

[twin mountain]

yeah rotating defending hands is interesting

[tepid steeple]

But also held up so well as a free for all game which is super rare in the space

[twin mountain]

right? like... moonstone is fascinating in that the core scenario and general combat vibe actually only gets more emphasized in FFA

like it's not balanced at all in FFA but the grubby fuck energy just goes through the roof

[sand sonnet]

It also works well in odd numbers of players too which is nice.

[twin mountain]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9mw2TSW7Hg

[compact leaf]

I do have precisely one devious trick up my sleeve for Feudom, at least

[tepid steeple]

My partner won by their faerie swooping in on a mutual kill to pick up moonstones and end the game

[compact leaf]

My opponent will be taking 4 wound elite infantry as theirs, probably

[tepid steeple]

Ive only played 3 feudom units so far but solo knight of the relic is really good

With his command ability

He seems like also maybe the best guisarmier commander though

[compact leaf]

Yeah that's what I'm gonna run him as

Turn the Guisarmiers into a tarpit, then murder whatever gets stuck in it

[tepid steeple]

Mhm

[compact leaf]

Only then will the knight be allowed to detach

And go murder something else super duper hard

I've also debated using it to be the vanguard of a guisarmier charge?

[tepid steeple]

I need to work out what to bring to a 150 point tournament next month and one option is dropping Verena but shes so cool 😭

[compact leaf]

Hhhhng

I'm gonna be real

I don't think 150 points is a good number
I think it's actually 160

Literally every starter + beyond gets to 160 nearly on the dot

[tepid steeple]

Thats an interesting point

[compact leaf]

Some of them can go above, but..
If I've done everything right, every starter should be able to hit 160 exactly

...at the very least, both of the new ones do.

Which I imagine is the main reason they've decided to do 150?

[tepid steeple]

I might moot this to the TO

Yeah

Tricky when even the first new unit for them doesnt come out till end of oct

[compact leaf]

Okay so I just did the math again

Feudom, Scions, and Hegemony all get to 160 exactly with some version of their starter stuff

Syenann and Tribes get to 170 instead

[tepid steeple]

I seee

Im also really excited to play some infinity its 17 tho and start bakunin 🥰

[compact leaf]

Eugh
Bakunin..

bleh

-# I don't actually mean it <3

[tepid steeple]

Hehe

Nuns!!!

Also questionably executed but still kinda cool militant feminists

The nmm came out accidentally lesbian flag adjacent

[compact leaf]

I'm trying to learn NMM on my Feudom..
It's gonna be..

Hard...

[tepid steeple]

Its worthwhile!

Ive found even just studying boxart really helpful

n theres levels to doing it but even just having the really big contrast between light and dark starts to trick the eye fairly quick

[supple shale]

Yeah imho the « secret » to adequate nmm is chunkier and more graphic high-contrast highlights than you think you need

If it feels like you’re overdoing it, that’s where you want to be

[compact leaf]

Interesting..

[sudden halo]

Hell yeah, Bakunin is super fun. I've got a lot of experience with them if you want to run stuff by me in the future.

I built my Feudom half of song of the dormant today, so I'm excited to play some Warcrow.

I've also been fooling with the unit creator for Polyversal and I think it's potentially a really slept on game in the small scale space. Converting some epic 40k units to it since I know my group has those models but it has potential for any scifi without many supernatural elements.

[umbral prawn]

Ember: obsidian protocol question
Can missiles strike a mech's rear?

[twin mountain]

no, because it's explosion damage

that's the only reason explosion damage exists as a unique game mechanical thing

it's just ranged damage that can't back attack

[distant roost]

The missiles usually do have guidance and can bob and weave to target who you want in range instead of closest target so it's good for beheading attempts

[compact leaf]

Imagine if there was a missile that could designate attacks
Guh

Horrifying

I feel like that'd be surprisingly easy to balance though..

Hey uhh

@twin mountain
There is a combined rulebook doc for Warcrow, it may or may not be the early version of a proper 1.5 rulebook.

[twin mountain]

ooh

[tepid steeple]

Oooh

[tepid steeple]

This is really helpful

[compact leaf]

Mhm!

I have only skimmed it, but have found no discrepancies so far!

[compact leaf]

@tepid steeple you're bringing Feudom for that tourney right?

What's your opinion on Amaury?

[tepid steeple]

Havent used him but be seems good as a solo

[compact leaf]

I used to think he was kinda mid but then..

21 stride threat range with 2 attacks a turn...

[tepid steeple]

Mm

[compact leaf]

All for the cost of a lil stress

I have to choose between him and Morgane for my list on Thursday

[tepid steeple]

Also ambusher seems quite good

Morgane is cool though

[compact leaf]

And given how strong some of the support solos in scions are
I think I might have to take him over her, he's my best shot at killing a lot of stuff

[tepid steeple]

But maybe matchup dependent

[compact leaf]

She issss

But ye

[tepid steeple]

Mm

[compact leaf]

If I need to murder key characters then it's probably Amaury

[tepid steeple]

They die fast if you can get to them

[compact leaf]

If I'm dealing with conquest shenanigans then I take Morgane

And if I'm playing 250 points..
I'm maybe taking both :3

[tepid steeple]

Yee

I really like verena. Elite is very good

Excited for when 250 points of stuff is out

[compact leaf]

Verena is super good yeah

Right now I can't imagine leaving home without her

Giving literally everyone an auto shield feels really good

And she also has optic blast

[tepid steeple]

Mhm mhm

[twin mountain]

https://youtu.be/eyI1NPAIrb0

Every time

I cannot unhear it

[compact leaf]

I-

[umbral prawn]

I can't decipher what this action actually does

(page 91, common actions)

[distant roost]

That's because it's a translation error in the PDF, it should read "Crawl," and it's a way to move when your legs are destroyed

[umbral prawn]

oooh

That does clear it up, yeah

It took me a while to figure out there's a secret "move up to Range" text attached to every Mobility action

[distant roost]

It actually came up in a game Saturday when one of my RDL mechs with destroyed legs was in range of 2 missiles and crawled just out of range intead of risking the missiles by staying put with no Maneuver rating

[umbral prawn]

My first crack at a list

It lacks a real melee powerhouse

[autumn sun]

https://www.manticgames.com/kings-of-war-4th-edition/

[distant roost]

Funny enough your Obstruction of Justice works decent enough in melee with the parry shield and melee firing rifle

[umbral prawn]

That was my hope, yeah

RDL has some very scary melee weapons that are also too expensive for this list

[distant roost]

Yeah the left arm grappling hook is super neat and costs nearly 2 Drones on its own

[teal cloud]

Fit check
Do the templar crosses risk making this look like nazi shit
Cause otherwise sick ass design

[sudden halo]

It's probably fine in my experience. There's a lot of different aesthetics that use a lot of crosses like that, so I wouldn't necessarily assume Nazi shit, but I would probably look twice to be sure.

It's not my style, and I know what trench crusade is, so those might inform my thoughts on it, but I'd say it's past my comfort zone for something I'd wear in that regard, though I don't think I'd judge others for wearing something like that.

[sleek trail]

God i love Btv

Amazing design

[sleek trail]

I think a lot of people struggle with this

Having read a lot of games

I think part of it is that for good scenario design you have to start with your basic loop

And people tend to focus on combat as their base unit of play

[tawny sandal]

Yeah scenarios can help a lot with making stuff bland or interesting

Even just some degree of contextualization can help a lil

[sleek trail]

i think you should be thinking about scenarios and how they will be engaged with at a very early stage in design

speaking of i should probably start thinking of scenarios for my current design project

[tawny sandal]

Also just having a variety to them can be good, I’ve seen some try to represent securing intelligence/documents by requiring a unit to not only be in a location but also do an action and give up using that unit for a certain amount of time to get markers representing the secured documents that then need to have the unit get off the board while holding them

Which puts a twist on the usual “standing on the objective point” thing, and also often includes a way for the enemy to destroy the documents (but lose out on points for doing so, so they’re encouraged to try to protect them or get them back intact)

[tepid steeple]

I think my big bugbear of terrain rules is very related to the scenario thing

(That being that games chronically fail to address terrain expectations or prescribe it any way at all imo)

(And then a lot of the exceptions are just set maps like competitive format warhammer etc)

But more specifically its just like, yeah, having a Game but failing to address or come up with interesting rules for a large part of how that game actually works

No matter how cool you make your gun system or even your rules for interacting with terrain, if your game just gives some vague statement and a layout of objective circles to stand in…

[twin mountain]

there's a tension between wargames and trying to be complete games

like, one of my favorite wargame style experiences is ironwood. it has a fixed map. I love fixed maps. but the moment you even get into fixed map territory people start saying it's not a wargame anymore because like, there's a sort of loose rpg-energy that is blended into what people expect from wargames where they're supposed to be able to do their own stuff with it

[tepid steeple]

Mm

Specifically the reason I bring up fixed maps is um. I think it’s a valid solution! But um yeah it collapses the possibility space. But its genuinely really hard to get something in between and I get that but also I think part of the reason for that is no one (hyperbole) tries so you gotta invent

But yeah it is that same kinda bleh, kinda thought terminating criticism that happens in rpgs

I played warcrow today with the alternating terrain setup in the book and it worked pretty well, its kinda sound game theory wise, but its got logistical implications for tournament play etc

But I think yeah it’s a big problem cause many wargames straight up like. Are not fun if you dont have the exact right amount of terrain but its a tossup whether even the game designers can tell you what that is or want to

But its also like, just like the rpg thing cause its the exact same problem, the lines between what a game is meant to strictly codify and what its meant to leave completely up in the air are so completely arbitrary and ppl will balk at eg fixed terrain but if you show up with a custom unit or whatever its self evidently wrong to do

[sand sonnet]

Monpoc was always considered a wargame but had "fixed" maps.

In that the layout was always the same, but different buildings could be shuffled around on them.

[arctic hollow]

in all my firelock experience i do not think i have ever had a win on points it’s always been commander elimination

[compact leaf]

I've heard some rumblings that tournaments for Warcrow will have mostly preset tables, with some pieces of terrain that folks are able to add in

I'd prefer just preset tables though, some factions already spawn their own terrain anyways

[tepid steeple]

Mhm

[compact leaf]

And it saves a lot of time

Which is.. the main thing

Terrain also isn't as important in warcrow as it is in infinity so you can definitely get a little weirder with it

It mostly serves to determine where the main battles happen

[tepid steeple]

Im not super in love with the alternating terrain stuff but at the same time I respect that its actually a system haha

Necromunda did some pretty interesting stuff with it in the beginning (of n18) using the terrain tiles n features in the starter box

One thing I also like about warcrow tho is the specific guideline of ‘within 5 units of an objective, base sized gaps between impassable terrain’ like it doesnt have to be ground breaking but say something yknow

[tepid steeple]

https://www.reddit.com/r/WarCrow/comments/1ng3spg/i_tried_to_rewrite_the_rules_to_combine_the_151/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

This seems to be the source for the combined rulebook :)

Played feudom vs syenann last night. Scenarios arent really built for 150 points but was still good fun

Guisarmiers are very good at just sticking to a point

Amaury is super fast (I just used him to cap far points this time haha) but he does take attrition pretty hard once he’s tinged

Mace escorts are quite good with their morale of 3. Put them with a syzigian to take them to morale 4 and they can just keep trucking

Once they died though the syzigian demoralised haha

Oh yeah adventure was the expanse + the rift

One fun combo for the syzigian and amaury is first action shoot, displace into combat with switches, second action attack :)

They dont like fighting elfy shadows though turning off their anti charge passive 😭

[compact leaf]

So

And this might be really unintuitive

But you can technically declare to hold and shoot at any distance along your opponent's charge

So (and I could be totally wrong), you could maybe get around shew's ability with that?

[twin mountain]

Thanks for the heads up

Knowing it's not corvus makes me even more excited to read it now tbh

I'll take a look

[tepid steeple]

The ability both specifically mentions not getting hold and shoot and turns off the ability that lets the syzigian hold and shoot while in a squad in the first place iirc

But yeah hold and shoot strictly speaking triggers on declaration of the charge and just ignores cover and range I think

Rather than being a all at once thing

But yeah turns off hold and shoot and also turns off the disarm 😭

[twin mountain]

that's not accurate, you must declare hold and shoot at the charge declaration

you simply ignore range requirements

[twin mountain]

I'm testing the mobile arms tts mod with @modern snow and I can assure you guys he has a DEDICATION to giving you the best representation of the REAL PRODUCT

😤

[modern snow]

we are PROFESSIONALS

[sand sonnet]

This reminds me I am demoing Mobile Arms soon. Any recommendations for that?

[twin mountain]

there's gonna be a tts mod reaaal sooon

glances off screen

aaany day nowww

and then i'm gonna start headbutting people in the main tabletop channel

[modern snow]

5 tons per player (a light and a medium each) and you can absolutely use the single-sided dashboards and mission from the learn-to-play doc as a demo

you can use the modules provided in the L2P and/or supplement with additional modules from your collection

[modern snow]

literally once temporal gives the all-clear then it goes live, I'm so stoked

[twin mountain]

https://tenor.com/view/donut-hungry-reaching-cant-reach-ferret-gif-16282735

[modern snow]

me rn

[sand sonnet]

Thanks! Looking forward to getting folks here into the game.

[compact leaf]

Yeaaah I've checked with all the FAQs, though that's not what I was looking for.
As for measuring range during a hold and shoot (which actually matters for some units. Arquebusiers I think?), it happens before any movement is measured (and I can't hold and shoot shews anyways, they also have a specific thing just for stopping that ;-;)

[compact leaf]

Sure does!
Shews are evill 😭

And I clearly am too tired to read a whole unit card...
Sorry for filling the chat with nonsense

[sleek trail]

For me, i think most miniature games are designed as incomplete games

insofar as like

they want to be rulesets that can engage with dynamic possibility spaces

you design at least part of the experience at the table

thats part of the appeal of the game, even. you use the tools you have access to to engage with a new, dynamic space. you can of course have set maps and similar but a big part of wargames, to me, is what you're bringing to an unknown

or a partial unknown

when i played tournament infinity part of the fun was coming to a table that someone had put a lot of work into and trying to figure out what the best way to tackle it would be

i think guidelines for proper terrain are important, but i also think allowing map design and a lack of hard codification to be a part of that is also essential, especially for terrain heavy games

beyond the rare boxed game experience like Redwood, miniatures games tend to really benefit from the ability to keep producing novel arenas and thus experiences

also of course the distinction between "wargame" and "miniatures game" is important, as they are not synonyms. miniatures game to me is defined by that specific analog playspace not dictated by grids or nodes, but instead navigated dynamically using measure and move, templates, or similar

[twin mountain]

yes I think that's accurate yeah. I do struggle with that.

miniature games are designed with a lot of deliberately open holes in them, and while I'm very familiar with that sort of design as a professional rpg writer, it's not really what I'm looking for

[twin mountain]

well fair enough I'm not that interested in measure and move stuff nor the semantics around it

like, ember obsidian protocol absolutely has little minis and that's key for everyone here buying it

[sleek trail]

but its not a minatures game

the minis are essential for the sale but not for the rules

[twin mountain]

gecko. are we really gonna do the nerd semantic argument thing

you're just being prescriptive with words

[sleek trail]

its not a semantic thing

[twin mountain]

it is literally semantic

[sleek trail]

because i think minatures games are a distinct medium

[twin mountain]

you are talking about the meaning of genre words in your head

[sleek trail]

if i had a better word for it id use it!

[sleek trail]

its not the wikipedia definition

[twin mountain]

look, if you wanna use your own personal definitions for stuff and make it clear when conversations start that's fine

but if someone shows up and calls eop a miniatures game I expect nobody to run in and go "actually that's WRONG" and start semantic arguments

[sleek trail]

its something that is being hashed out by designers

because i think its important to draw the distinction

because many wargames are not miniatures games and thats good

[twin mountain]

it. really isn't? like it may be to you

[sleek trail]

because i think wargames should include the space of games like ironwood

[twin mountain]

but just to be clear here: this thread is about all of this stuff

[sleek trail]

and VASSAL

or

ASL

words hard

[sleek trail]

yeah, i called it wargames for a reason

[twin mountain]

gecko I think unfortunately most people here colloquially just do not use the word wargame like you do

and in that sense it's extra on you to not be prescriptive about this

[sleek trail]

miniatures games =/= wargames

and thats good for the space because it means we should be talking about obsidian protocol etc

i think you think im taking the opposite position to you

[twin mountain]

... yes. because this is a wargaming thread

[sleek trail]

yeah

[twin mountain]

I talk about design as wargame design

are you saying that mini games don't belong here

[sleek trail]

wargame design though has important strains

miniatures games are a distinct part of the space that have different design considerations

[sleek trail]

id argue that minis games that are not wargames shouldnt be here

[twin mountain]

right. exactly. that is my problem

[sleek trail]

but thats very very small part of the space

[twin mountain]

this is my mod hat moment

please do not gatekeep any conversation or game on this thread via this arbitrary personal semantic thing

[sleek trail]

im not!

redwood is the only minis game that isnt a wargame

that i can name

and thats a very rare example

[twin mountain]

please don't gatekeep redwood

[sleek trail]

i mean, i wouldnt if people brought it up

but i was the one who brought it up initially, and i don't think anyone here would call it a minis game

wargame

christ im bad with words today

[twin mountain]

gecko you started with like. "miniatures game to me is defined by that specific analog playspace not dictated by grids or nodes, but instead navigated dynamically using measure and move, templates, or similar"

that's like 99% of games people talk about here

infinity, mobile arms, everything

moonstone

[sleek trail]

yeah, but you often talk about non-minis games and i think that should be talked about here

i wanted to just make sure my terms were clear

because i know when i use the phrase i need to define it

[twin mountain]

okay, then, like, when you use a phrase say "when I speak of X I mean Y and and when I say Z I mean A" and don't just flat state that this means that and they're not the same and you're just doing language correctly

[sleek trail]

specifically, that consideration of openness does not apply to many wargame-type games, like ironwood or any gridded game

[twin mountain]

like, this is literally semantic stuff

[sleek trail]

my apologies

but that wasn't my intent

[twin mountain]

okay, understood. my mod intent is to napalm nerd semantic argument stuff every time I see it on the server

[orchid tulip]

TIL Aristeia and AoS:Underworlds aren't miniature games

[twin mountain]

if someone says sekiro is a rhythm game I do not want people showing up going NO rhythm game means-

no, shut up, they're trying to point at something and you can see what they're pointing at

[sleek trail]

Not by my definition

[twin mountain]

engage with what people are saying

the only time we ask for definitions is when we're genuinely confused as to what people are talking about

[sleek trail]

but games with miniatures are often still worth talking about in the same spaces

specifically cause the genres tend to overlap

i do wish we had a better word for what i am calling, here, the "miniatures game"

because i think that actually would be a really useful discussion tool

[twin mountain]

look it's fine to make up terms, I do it all the time. there are some terms that float around pnet because of me, like 'combat gender' and 'game brutality' and stuff because sometimes new words are a good way to point at stuff

[sleek trail]

because a lot of what you called "the rpg-style openness" is a type i only think emerges from the considerations of the miniatures game

and not wargames as a style

[twin mountain]

but it's very important to frame it and use it as a shared discussion tool and not some prescriptive correct language thing

[twin mountain]

rpg style openness was a huge part of ancient hex and chit wargames?

[sleek trail]

specifically im drawing my definition from the way that the podcast Rule of Carnage uses it

[twin mountain]

it's also a big part of modern matrix games and military wargaming

okay well like none of us watch that podcast

[sleek trail]

im not super familiar with those, so i cannot speak to that

should have tagged with in my experience

[twin mountain]

like we're talking about wargaming as it loosely oozes out of the culture of flgses

yes you should've

like, rule of thumb: if your personal definition of wargame does not include wh40k

you are very far from the way everyone else is using that term

and maybe you should just use new words

and not rearrange ones people are already using

[sleek trail]

to be clear i think wargames and minis games overlap

like

[twin mountain]

is wh40k a wargame to you

[sleek trail]

i think you're misunderstanding me a lot here

yeah

obviously

its also a miniatures game

[twin mountain]

you're right, you've for sure lost me. so the new words are not helping me

[sleek trail]

sorry

[sudden halo]

I do think "miniature wargames" tends to conjure up the more open space.

As a subset of wargames.

[sleek trail]

but this is the problem! the kind of analog style game, that im speaking to, is not the whole of wargaming

its my preference

but its not the whole, and the only word we tend to have for it is "like 40k"

"like warhammer"

[sudden halo]

I think maybe that was where the cross communication happened? At least my read here wasn't that they were separate, but it was an attempt to define a specific subset to make it easier to talk about.

[sleek trail]

yeah

that was my intent

[twin mountain]

okay because gecko kept talking about distinct design spaces and stuff

[sleek trail]

because i think the design considerations for the discrete possibility space wargames and the conitunous possibility space miniatures wargames overlap but are distinct. preset maps i think make less sense for the continuous possibility space games

[twin mountain]

so, okay, if you mean that wargames is just what everyone calls wargames and you're trying to point to some subset of wargames then sure

[sleek trail]

and like you said, ironwood starts to become "not wargame" for people but i think thats pretty bogus

[twin mountain]

I mean. they say not wargame and I know what they mean

so it's not bogus

[sleek trail]

if its not wargame its more on the back of the fact it plays out one conflict

i think

rather than other elements

like i've seen people call twilight imperium a wargame

for me thats outside the wargame space intuitively, like ironwood kinda is

[sudden halo]

I usually say "design lineage" rather than ascribing them as whole genres.

Like Obsidian Protocol is a wargame with modern board game design lineage, similar to Xwing before it, in terms of components and such.

[sleek trail]

i think about the design in terms of like. the analog nature of templates or measure-and-move

vs the discrete spaces of the board game

so x wing is a minis game to me

[orchid tulip]

Isn't this just a fixed map tho? Reading this as a third entity set up the field.

[sudden halo]

It being a out what stands out as the main influence on the games overall design style.

[twin mountain]

I wanna point out that this is the sort of semantic argument stuff I whiffed and I want to be very clear it's not kosher. like, if someone says ironwood is not a wargame I think you and I both know what they mean. if someone asks for wargame recommendations, and people don't recommend ironwood because they don't think it's what the asker is looking for, that is a valid direction to think

[sleek trail]

clarity: its a map not designed by the designers of the game

[sudden halo]

It generally is a third entity. The person who provides the table sets it up. Then players at the event get assigned to tables as they get matched up.

[twin mountain]

words are communication tools first and things with "definitions" like... a distant second.

they're vibe clusters, especially genre words

[sleek trail]

I think its worth talking about that kind of thing in here, though, even if its not hardline a wargame

[twin mountain]

sure!

I'm happy to let spaces sorta morph and stretch based on internal culture

what goes in strategy club? what people decide

[sleek trail]

and i wanted to note why the things i was talking about didnt apply to that type of game

[twin mountain]

but it's like, vibe cluster stuff

and it's fine to use harder definitions inside a specific thing you're trying to talk about but we gotta be loose outside it

[sleek trail]

i think its also made more complex when the line between genre and medium is blurry

because i consider "wargame" a genre and what im calling "miniatures game" a medium

but i think thats very debatable!

[twin mountain]

no even that is vibe cluster stuff as far as pnet is concerned

like if anyone just says a sentence and the intent is clear just go with it

[sleek trail]

to be clear this is my personal consideration

as far as pnet is concerned, sure, but i think this is something worth debating

[twin mountain]

the definition of words is worth debating?

[sleek trail]

in terms of figuring out what we as a community are talking about, sure!

[twin mountain]

... alright, I think I'm not getting anywhere. just keep it off pnet.

[sleek trail]

the server might not care but i think if we are having these conversations im willing to be challenged and challenge the way people are using ideas if i think they dont make sense

[sleek trail]

i am in fact very confused by what you're trying to convey, yes. sorry about that

[sudden halo]

I feel like for any supplyable definition there's a game that breaks it that would inarguably be called the thing, so it's better to just let it play out in conversation.

[twin mountain]

to be clear: I'm not just saying the server doesn't care, I am actively saying that this is an extremely boring and common social failure mode of nerds everywhere and makes spaces more toxic and it needs to be fought against

like. remember unde2aker?