Indie+Alternative Wargaming

[compact leaf]

Okay that's actually now just a tournament list I saw recently (though it ran daggers instead of pilebunkers) 😭

[orchid tulip]

But Pilebunkers looks so much cooler

Does a mech count itself as an ally mech within range?

[compact leaf]

It does!

[orchid tulip]

And only named Pilots have a limit, right?

[compact leaf]

Well technically you can only take each pilot once

Cause they all have different names

But the named one that share names can only have one variant of themselves in a given list, yeah

[orchid tulip]

But Shock Troop 9-13 are basically grunts with a limit of 5

[compact leaf]

More or less, yeah

Not that you'd ever have more than like.. 3, probably

[orchid tulip]

Running double Echoes, with Anser keeping her jetpack

Now I just need to get time to try playing

[compact leaf]

Do note that there has been a ruling that action pips gained with echoes activations cannot be used to activate the echoes pack

[orchid tulip]

It's more redundancy and not knowing what I can really do

[compact leaf]

Best of luck EKU

[hollow crypt]

https://discordapp.com/channels/426286410496999425/709070344455192626/1414783442335563897 crossposting this here because it seems like the kind of thing y'all are interested in, and I'd love to know if any of you have heard of anything similar for inspiration reasons

[twin mountain]

Hmm I'm sure I've seen hex based capital ship warfare before in very old games

Here, @hollow crypt https://voidfarers.sublightgames.com/en-cad/products/free-stardust-0-9-x-beta-rulebook

Something is crunch for inspiration

But honestly this game is not, like, amazing

Wait

I'm an idiot

@hollow crypt https://youtu.be/OIUwvHkRQgk

This one's pretty good

Steal it

Undaunted in space

@distant roost @sand sonnet @umbral prawn are you guys around

surprisingly open evening

for potential ember

[umbral prawn]

Uh! Maybe!

[twin mountain]

I understand it's late haha

[umbral prawn]

I have to go to bed pretty soon

[twin mountain]

was leaning on doing it tomorrow

no worries o7

if it was mega convenient for everyone then sure fuck it today

but tomorrow makes the most sense

[ocean holly]

I'm intrigued for Ember

[twin mountain]

i'll put you on the list

[sand sonnet]

Yeah little late for me as well, thanks for the ping though.

[orchid tulip]

Something something hecking early

[hollow crypt]

Oh! Right I totally forgot about this. I’ll give it a look

[hollow crypt]

I've given this a quick look-through as well and I think I agree with you, it's not great and doesn't have all that much going on. It is also very much meant to be fighter vs fighters which is quite removed from what I'm working on. They've got a pretty interesting take on the semi-newtonian stuff which weirdly reminds me of Everspace/House of the Dying Sun, despite those both being videogames

The defenisve state thing is pretty clean though

[twin mountain]

Yeah it's not great, focus on homeworld fc

[sudden halo]

I too am slowly working on a LoGH inspired wargame. Mine is loosely based on Warmaster, because I felt the formations and that focus on command and control fit the setting really well.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1L2dDaMbt04C7YqrYI-_1GNL_NzKSdE4UAvNd0qT1lIE/edit?usp=drivesdk

I have not had time to go through and make my big update after play testing, but the shell of the game is playable.

[compact leaf]

:0
We hope you have fun with ember winged!!!

Oh I (and my locals) did coax someone into doing a big set of faction overviews a while back if you wanna see :3

Here's the first, I'll post UN as well

[distant roost]

I had an early bedtime last evening, and have a obligation at 10 eastern tonight, so any time between 6 Eastern and 9:30 eastern should work today

[echo marten]

So I'm hearing 'play UN is you're an asshole who likes making the other player sad'. I, luckily, am an asshole so they sound right up my alley.

😛

[compact leaf]

UN is.. kinda actually that yeah

Like they are very easy to use, and have been getting consistently nerfed to no avail

[echo marten]

Long Range + HIt and Run + Stealth + Debuffing seemed kinda that way, yeah

[compact leaf]

They are considered the best faction in the game, but it's not such a large gulf that RDL can't overcome it (and they probably will, when people git gud)

I think if they see one more points increase, they'll probably be in a spot that stops people complaining about them

Because they're meant to be the hyper-elite spec ops mechs

So being able to afford only 2-3 is what they're aiming for

GoF isn't out yet, but they are also usually 2-3 mechs but buttloads of elite drones
RDL is typically 3-5 entire mechs

[echo marten]

...I am curious about these drone guys.

[compact leaf]

...oookay one second, they have a write-up too

[echo marten]

Interesting. So they are more Artillery than snipers.

[compact leaf]

In a way, yeah

They get a centaur mech

Chassis is huge and costs like 100 points

I think GoF has the most expensive mechs in the game?

[hollow slate]

I should make inquiries of where my UN box is

[compact leaf]

I'd reach out, yeah.
The Kickstarter was a bit of a mess

Actual UN retail stuff is delayed till like.. October-November too

[hollow slate]

Just to make sure it's going to the right location

[hollow crypt]

Ooooh I love the initiative thing, that’s great. I think you’ve also done quite a better job at emulating LoGH’s emphasis on commander skill

[sudden halo]

Thanks! I really like the idea you have of high energy smoke, that would really help sell the pseudo Napoleonics nature of the battles.

I should read more Napoleon/ACW rulesets. The only other newish LoGH rules I've seen were a conversion of Brigade Fire and Fury.

[hollow crypt]

huh, neat

[hollow crypt]

Yeah It's a little jank but the idea is to force breathing room into fights, partially to give fleets time to change formation safely, since if you keep firing constantly the smoke can turn into super dangerous high-energy space

also I just love dynamic terrain creation

[twin mountain]

@sand sonnet @distant roost ember in 40 minutes?

@stray breach @latent rover if you're interested in watching. who else... @umbral prawn @ocean holly

[umbral prawn]

I'm in front of Bad Screen for another two hours

[twin mountain]

2 hours or like 1 hour 40

I can totally wait 2 hours

[distant roost]

Yeah that works good - I'm reading the rule book and fiddling with the army builder now

[twin mountain]

oh perfect in that case I'll preferentially put someone who hasn't touched the rules in the driver's seat for one of the two players

[latent rover]

Sorry bestie, I have a game

[umbral prawn]

If you have 2 players, don't wait for me

[compact leaf]

We will watch from here, ish
Funnily enough we are working on some of our models for it

Do let us know how well the TTS mod works for y'all

[distant roost]

Is this the TTS mod in question?
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2935581987

[twin mountain]

yup

if people are reading the rulebook I'm happy to just let people play games directly then

I shall sink into the darkness

or, like, @distant roost if you do finish reading the whole rulebook and build a 900 point list I'd love to just straight up play with you sometime

[distant roost]

Yeah I'm picking parts out of the dark a bit based on vibes and should have a list ready top of the hour

[orchid tulip]

Am jelly y'all are gonna play...

[distant roost]

First attempt at a UN list:

┣┳ Shooty[M.A.P：276Points]
┃┣ Torso：TM35B Bison Assault Core
┃┣ Chasis：LM231  Standard Chassis
┃┣ LeftArm：G6 Shotgun + Grenade Pod
┃┣ RightArm：R7 Automatic Rifle
┃┣ Backpack：DBP Turtle Shell Barricade Rack
┃┗ ：Onyx
┣┳ Punchy[M.A.P：318Points]
┃┣ Torso：TM31R Caracal Battle Core
┃┣ Chasis：LM213B  Combat Chassis
┃┣ LeftArm：RHX23 Rainstorm Assault Pistol (L)
┃┣ RightArm：G6 Shotgun + M5 Pile Bunker
┃┣ Backpack：JP1 Jetpack
┃┗ ：Quartz
┣┳ Stabby[M.A.P：282Points]
┃┣ Torso：TM641 Octopus Stealth Core
┃┣ Chasis：LM210S  Stealth Chassis -Trial Mode
┃┣ LeftArm：K9 Nail Gun + M14BO Wakizashi
┃┣ RightArm：M3S Vibroblade (R)
┃┣ Backpack：JP1 Jetpack
┃┗ ：Sealock```

[twin mountain]

@distant roost interested in streaming our game tomorrow to others here?

👀

[distant roost]

Absolutely, that's the Pilot NET way to do it, document the mechsplosions for the general public

[twin mountain]

excellent

https://tenor.com/view/bird-robot-cgi-bird-animated-bird-enbw-ag-gif-12856503

[distant roost]

Which, for those interested, should be going at <t:1757545200:F>

[sand sonnet]

I'll probably pop in the middle of that one to see how it all works.

[tawny sandal]

Dude these models fuck and is exactly my kind of mech look, what game is this?

[distant roost]

Ember: Obsidian Protocol
Rulebook link in this message: #1161730220164911187 message
Builder web app in this message: #1161730220164911187 message

[tawny sandal]

What kind of wargame is it?

Like, for general top level mechanics and vibe

[distant roost]

Kind of a Front Mission kind of situation with mechs with locational damage, square grid with orthogonal measurement, and working in small specialized squads. Pick a stance each round to make different dice roll harder in your favor, queue up an action with your pilot and fastest pilots go first, rounds resolve in phases kind of like BattleTech, mechs are physically big and have to walk around terrain while drones and missiles can kind of bob and weave.

[tawny sandal]

Hmm, bit less interested due to the grid stuff

Personal taste thing, but it always feels kinda constructive to me compared to measuring

Still probably will take a look through

[distant roost]

It's kind of a grid within a grid kind of situation where each grid square has 9 potential sub squares, mechs are 3x3x3 on the baby grid and terrain can be like 1x2x2 or 3x1x1 or what have you, and small units like projectiles and mines and drones can double occupy a big grid space as well as bob and weave around small terrain

[tawny sandal]

I guess I feel like at that point just measure stuff, you know? And it’s easier to set up a play space without it

[distant roost]

Yeah instead of sizes they measure in 25mm increments (e.g. mechs are 75mm) and the board is 900mm by 900mm

[tawny sandal]

I guess I’m just wondering how a grid is better for the system than measuring if it’s gonna be that granular

[distant roost]

It uses orthogonal space counting Fire Emblem style instead of direct gridless measurement and firing arcs are in 90 degree increments based on unit facing so my uneducated guess is they just don't like strafe running robots

[tawny sandal]

It just seems a bit odd to have that amount of granularity in grids, allowances for multiple things in a given grid, and physical terrain but then lock it all down to right angles

Some of this is just my personal taste in what I want in a wargame, but I’m also trying to figure what the exact process that led to the decision was

Just might not be for me is all

[sand sonnet]

Designer was bored and had grid paper is a probable cause.

It's an interesting approach though, as you said it might not be for you.

[tawny sandal]

It’s a little unfortunate, since I do love the models and the modularity seems cool

[clear shadow]

I think there were plans for measure and move as an alternative way to play, but I don't know if that was kept

[tawny sandal]

If they do come out with that, I’d definitely be more interested

[hollow slate]

One of these days I'm gonna ask someone here for an Ember tutorial, but I'm exhausted and my headset stopped working today for some reason

[twin mountain]

I'll be helping teach it tomorrow

It's an armored core game

I talk about it at length here

[twin mountain]

I much much much prefer grids. The advantage is obvious: clarity

If you can move 3 spaces and your gun has a range of 3 and they're 7 spaces away, it's immediately obvious through human vision

Measurement is really messy

[tawny sandal]

For me, it loses a lot of potential for maneuver, though I understand why people like them

[twin mountain]

The potential is lost on me. I want clear tactical situations

I'm not interested in diorama stuff

This is mech chess for sure

And I'm not trying to pick a fight I'm just trying to set expectations: expect armored core chess

[tawny sandal]

I feel having a grided system loses some of the tactical element, since it makes positioning things much more rigid

[twin mountain]

Like you move and set up clear threats that have clear geometric solutions

That's more tactical to me not less

[tawny sandal]

It definitely speeds play and clarity, but loses out on positioning

[twin mountain]

Being able to create a tree of options and responses is pretty tactical

I don't think more options = more tactics

[umbral prawn]

The rigid positioning is a feature

[twin mountain]

I think really clear situations is a feature

Like, battlecon puts people on a 1D grid. The tactics are ridiculous

Making it a centimeter measurement thing would only make stuff softer and less strategically rigid

[tawny sandal]

I think you are losing out on some ways of maneuvering and creating it fields of fire with a grid, which can impact the types of tactics you can employ

Or at least how effectively you can employ them

[twin mountain]

That doesn't really match to my experiences at all

And again I'm not interested in more options if the more options is less predictable and tree searchable

I'm happy for games to create rigid situations I can rigidly have tough decisions on

Like would undaunted be improved if they removed the region map and made it measurement based? No not really

[tawny sandal]

I’m definitely coming more from a bit more of a history side of things and a little less game side in my likes, so I like when you get a bit messy

[twin mountain]

I appreciate knowing exactly how many cards my opponent has to play to push into an objective

Yeah I get it

But that's what I'd call diorama stuff. And I think that's in tension with depth as a strategy game

I mean tactics as in turn based tactics not simulating historical tactics

[tawny sandal]

Since military tactics are all about coming at everything from every possible angle and using every weird little terrain quirk to your advantage, and you lose that a bit when you’re stuck to a grid

[twin mountain]

Yes this is mech chess

[echo marten]

This reminds me, I should look into some more games where actively limiting the information the other player has available to make decisions is a designed part of it. I saw some fun stuff there a couple of days ago on that front.

[sand sonnet]

The positioning skills you mention in a measurement game are a learned skill that isn't explicitly spelled out in the rules, for some that's a plus and for others that's a negative play experience.

[tawny sandal]

See, I like having the ambiguity to a degree since it makes me have to think harder and push myself to consider more options

[twin mountain]

And to be clear - this is an armored core game. It's nothing like a real military engagement. It's about like 3 hotshot pilots with cool nicknames fighting 3 other hotshot pilots with cool nicknames and they spend willpower points to reroll dice

This is a game about anime heroes with laser swords dodging missiles

Use the Keanu Reeves scene as a reference point

[tawny sandal]

This is definitely a taste thing, and I’m not trying to say anyone is wrong, more just explain my preferences a little

[twin mountain]

For sure and I'm trying to be really clear as to what ember is going for and why

You mentioned being surprised anyone would not do measurement ever

And there's a really easy answer to that

[tawny sandal]

Sure, but I like the flex that measurement gives

[twin mountain]

^

Answering this

I like the chess board

[tawny sandal]

No, I know why people do grids, it more was surprised that they still kept to grids with how granular the grids go

[twin mountain]

Takes up much less space

I mean most ranges are like... 4

The grid is pretty good

It's not like early lancer stuff

I think the highest range I've seen is a sniper rifle with 12

If I'm firing a cluster of missiles I pick a point in 4 spaces and then the missiles home on enemies in 2 spaces from there

[tawny sandal]

Oh see I think having to have a specific board is a bit of a downside, since I prefer to play in person, so it makes it a tiny bit harder to set up

[twin mountain]

Grid works excellently for this

[twin mountain]

I find terrain a bitch to set up

[tawny sandal]

Rather than just being able to plop some books on a table

[twin mountain]

I much prefer board games and carry them around frequently and set them up all the time

If anything I wish they'd go further

[tawny sandal]

Or various office supplies

[twin mountain]

Drop the mechs in favor of standees

[tawny sandal]

I’ve made several wargaming tables with just desk stuff

[twin mountain]

You still need 3' x 3'

[tawny sandal]

Yeah, sounds like we’re just opposed in taste, I’m less interested in board game stuff

[twin mountain]

Like I can set up Ember on my kitchen table

[sand sonnet]

Standees? You could even have paper chits.

[twin mountain]

I cannot set up a wargame

[twin mountain]

Agreed

[tawny sandal]

Oh that’s what I was describing

I’ve done a ton of wargames on a kitchen table

[twin mountain]

My table is small

It's not 3 feet wide

Most wargames just don't fit

[tawny sandal]

Aw, there’s plenty of skirmish and small-scale stuff that’ll fit on all sorts of stuff

[twin mountain]

I'm honestly not very happy about games where I can mess up the board state by nudging a single piece and I have to hover measurement tools over the table at a height and then move stuff and awkwardly hope it's legal while I balance it on another terrain object etc etc etc

I do love moonstone but that's despite all this

Not really cause of it

My favorite games are like. Aristeia

[tawny sandal]

I guess I feel like I’d worry about cardboard pieces sliding around more, having done more mini based stuff since they’re often weighty enough to not shift a bunch

[twin mountain]

I mean they're on little grid spaces

You can slide them it's fine

Just slide them back

It's very hard to mess up a chess board

[tawny sandal]

No I meant for the losing their place stuff

Though I do think I see what you mean

Easier to get back into position if moved

[twin mountain]

Like, if I move my queen by accident it's an incredibly obvious fix

We know where it was

It's normal to fiddle with your pieces in spare time and center them and stuff

Or rotate them

Cause who cares

[tawny sandal]

Oh see that’d just drive me bonkers

[twin mountain]

There's no diorama aspect to it

It's a board game

You can fiddle with pieces in any board game

[tawny sandal]

No I more mean just the fiddling aspect, it’d be distracting for me lol

Anyhow, this is a case of “not for me, glad y’all are having fun though”

[twin mountain]

Anyway just to be clear the tactics in ember are like "oh no he's moving so fast he can dodge my bullets, time to saturate bombard the area around me so he has to juke away"

It's utterly nonsense in a historic context

Closer to fights from the Castlevania anime

[tawny sandal]

Eh, you’d be surprised how often basic military tactics still find a use in even pretty out there wargames

Turns out sometimes they’re just good ideas

[sand cloak]

"Imma flank!"

"But his creature is bigger than your squad!?"

"IMMA FLANK!!!!!"

[twin mountain]

:p hellbrute this is a game where 5 60 point guys are countered by just showing up with one 300 point guy who is totally immune to all their attacks because he can dodge all of them and pick them off

It's Hollywood stuff

Like you can't even focus fire

[tawny sandal]

“Look, if you flank him underneath to where his scale was shot off many moons ago we can slay the foul wyrm!”

[twin mountain]

Like Bushido is a good wargame example of this style

There are no flanking bonuses in ember, there's like no ganging up systems at all outside getting lucky

[tawny sandal]

I more mean basic stuff like positioning, and not stuff like infantry employing pinning fire to keep enemies in place for artillery barrages

Since even if you don’t get a bonus for it, having a guy on the opposite side of where your opponent wants them to be is always gonna be useful (even if it just rattles the player that you have a dude over there)

[twin mountain]

Rattling the player is like... That's just hoping people make mistakes

That's like fighting game players talking about mental damage

[sand cloak]

Emotional Damage

I'm sorry, I saw an opening and had to drop an elder meme.

[tawny sandal]

It mostly is, but making your opponent feel a little off-balance when making their plan is useful

[twin mountain]

I can't disagree more tbh, that's basically just playing weird psych games that will only work at low skill brackets and will keep you there if you rely or hope for them

[fast glade]

Only if you're actually presenting some kind of threat from doing so, at which point it's not that they're off-balance, it's just an option select

[twin mountain]

If not being actively a breach of etiquette

[sand cloak]

If I ever play tournament games

Imma just do vibe armies

Trench Dog company v. Meta army

Let's gooooooooo

[tawny sandal]

I kinda don’t see the difference between “complex tactical problem” and “off balance”

[fast glade]

I feel like the two have very different meanings and connotations?

[twin mountain]

... I guess, like, there's a fallacy where people assume that like when you're playing a chess game the opponent is expecting you to do 1 of 3 smart moves and if you do something totally stupid like the 20th move from the top of the list, they'll be totally stunned

in practice they'll just win

really hard

like I know this is a trope in television

but actually this will not win you games against deep blue

if you mean throwing people off balance by just making really dumb moves and not trying to emotionally compromise them, it's just dumb

[tawny sandal]

Well, this is why I prefer playing a bit less ridged games with human opponents, I’m not looking for a game that can easily be flowcharted

[fast glade]

Like, going back a few steps, what you said was it'd be useful to have a unit show up in an unexpected place is useful purely to rattle them, even if it did nothing else

[twin mountain]

I totally play competitive games that are not rigid and do not involve quantized space. just playing stupid in strive or dota will just get you killed

joseki exist for a reason

[arctic hollow]

i like to inflict mental damage on my enemy by setting off their smoke alarm the night before the game

[twin mountain]

yeah I was thinking about that

[echo marten]

You're not wrong about the weird psych games thing Winged but it does amuse me that Garry Kasparov brought someone who opponent thought was an Actual KGB Psychic to get him the psychological edge in chess. Though I think that one falls under 'breach of etiquitte'.

[sand cloak]

I like to inflict damage by acting like a gremlin.

[twin mountain]

like, there's gonna be a place they are worried you're gonna be. you're there or you're not. if you're in some place they totally did not expect, chances are that you're in a very bad place

[arctic hollow]

also only doing the wargame equivalent of playing fat scout in tf2

[twin mountain]

there's a slight argument that this is valuable in specifically very real time games

you get stuff like stack diving

and overwhelming people's mental stacks in fighting games

[tawny sandal]

Yeah, because it’s something that can cause an additional tactical problem

[sand cloak]

I really need to ask that old guy at my LGS if's he still accepting players. I want to play with someone so badly.

[twin mountain]

like one in twenty times you can just run up and throw people

but wargames are not that

[tawny sandal]

I’m not saying just have a unit sit in a weird place for no reason other than sitting there

[twin mountain]

they will look at you, raise an eyebrow, then the processing moment is gone and they're gonna beat you

[fast glade]

No, not in of itself? By definition?

[twin mountain]

yeah, it won't - like. they're expecting you to do the thing that will cause them a tactical problem

like game starts and I expect my opponent to macro well and take objectives?

and if they don't macro well and don't take objectives then... fair enough

I guess I win

[fast glade]

Like if you misspoke that's one thing, but you did say very clearly say that

[arctic hollow]

I think "unit in a weird spot they weren't expecting" is useful basically inversely proportional to how much information the other guy has

[tawny sandal]

I feel like I’m not explaining this correctly then

[twin mountain]

yeah I can see that, like, if there's a big space you wanna do a hidden information mixed strategy on then sure

but we're talking about wargames here

and like, not even deep deploy rules in wargames. just standard unit positioning in wargames

so it's perfect information turn based

[tawny sandal]

I’m not meaning not playing the game to win, I’m meaning trying to move in ways that their plan as is displayed on the board may not be accounting for

[twin mountain]

if you can move in way A that means the enemy can account for your plan but moving in way B means your enemy cannot account for your plans because you're keeping lots of options open or something - you're just playing well

[distant roost]

It also depends whether you can takesies backsies the unit if you don't commit to it or if you can double down on it in a later deployment so usually I reckon a split deploy in a wargame with one deploy is part of a metaplay over a series of rounds

[twin mountain]

this is not some cool emotional gambit it's just compact play and not overcommitting

like, I would do this normally

[arctic hollow]

depends on the game; if the game has unit identification or something similar you can do a little bit of trickery

[twin mountain]

like, this is the way my opponent would probably expect me to play

[arctic hollow]

"a weird group hidden in a transport"

[twin mountain]

you move in way B and that's totally the way everyone was probably gonna move anyway

like it's not a surprise

people are not gonna be surprised when everyone is playing well

I think that's the point I wanna circle back to

I think people keep assuming there's more value in surprise than there actually is

[tawny sandal]

You’ve never been surprised by someone’s movement or gameplay?

[fast glade]

Only when I was new and didn't know the rules yet

[twin mountain]

to the point that the surprise, itself, puts me at a disadvantage?

no not outside fighting games

[tawny sandal]

Yeah

[twin mountain]

if you mean surprise like "I didn't know that card existed"

then sure

but that's not the case in wargames

[sand cloak]

Sidebar: My LGS has some older Warmachine/Horde stock. Should I invest in older bile thralls?

[twin mountain]

nobody is gonna pull something out that is outside your opponent's entire modelled state space assuming people are playing well

and if you are relying on that

[echo marten]

I think part of it is 'what did the surprise do?' In most wargames if I get surprised I can sit there for 15 seconds, work out what is the actual plan and just keep going since it's turn based.

[twin mountain]

like your opponent having never seen your unit before or something

you are just playing with people who are new or bad at the game

like, just inexperienced

in realtime games the surprise can buy you a second and a second is enough to kill someone

I can buy that

not here

[echo marten]

If I get surprised in a fighting game, I'm losing the round becaue I need to replan while playing

And asking me to do two things at once is too much for poor ikibrain

[twin mountain]

and I'll note - even in fighting games surprise is way more complicated to model

in practice everyone has a structured list of options they're prepared for

so how you build your list is part of your strategy

[echo marten]

Oh yes but Iki is dumb. 😛

To go with a wargame example where surprise can matter - Infinity. Infinity surprise can matter because you can have the surprise revealed as part of it fucking you up. Where that Cutter was super duper hidden etc. But that's only really because the surprise is Mechanically Supported.

[twin mountain]

yeah I can understand that there's nuance with like, systems where you write down something in secret on a piece of paper and reveal it and then deep deploy a unit or whatever

but in a perfect information turn based system... no

[tawny sandal]

See, I think my thing going back to the systems stuff is I dislike the really ridged stuff because it makes it a lot easier to keep every single thing going on in the game your head at once, which reduces the potential to catch your opponent in a lapse or to do something potentially unexpected, not unexpected in the sense of “didn’t even know it was possible” but rather that they were not giving it proper mental weight

[twin mountain]

and worth noting: even then your opponent will look at your army and predict N points of hidden units and try to play around that

[twin mountain]

(quick note you mean "rigid")

[arctic hollow]

ribbed for hellbrute's displeasure

[tawny sandal]

Thanks, that one was spellcheck I think

[twin mountain]

(just saw you do it twice wasn't sure)

[tawny sandal]

I may also just be fucking up lol

[twin mountain]

well... fair enough I guess. like. I do know there's a layer to perfect information tactical games where I'm playing someone in chess and they just move a piece out into an open diagonal where my bishop can kill them and I kill them and they facepalm cause they weren't paying attention

but tbh I'll classify that as just bad play

[tawny sandal]

I think I should be clearer that when I meant “surprise” I didn’t mean “totally unseeable” I meant “potential to miss it until the trap springs”

[arctic hollow]

I also don't think that's surprise that's jus tlike

[twin mountain]

I think it's possible to make games with such horrendously involved state spaces that even good human brains kinda give up

but that's not wargames

that's like. spirit island

-# it's basically just spirit island

-# jesus christ spirit island

[arctic hollow]

"well i guess it's time to go back to the optometrist"\

[tawny sandal]

Less that and more that your brain glossed over it because it didn’t fit your model of the battlefield and what you thought your opponent is doing

[twin mountain]

like there's totally a layer to turn based games where you say "reading the card explains the card" cause people just did not read the space cause they're not so invested or experienced and are not allocating resources to the problem

but that's jsut bad play tbh

and relying on it is not great

[distant roost]

Is spirit Island kind of a wildin' design space of interactions of interactions or does it just have a ton of expos

[twin mountain]

just a truly massive space

spirit island solved the co-op quarterbacking issue 15 years ago by like. making a game so fucking layered in interactions every turn that one brain can't do it

like you end up just giving up and delegating different parts of the board to different players

[tawny sandal]

I think this also may be a thing of coming form very different types of wargaming, where historical games are a lot more comfortable doing stuff with ambiguity, hidden units, etc

[twin mountain]

and groaning and going... can anyone just. handle this spot. I need to handle... hmm.

[arctic hollow]

I think there's value to misdirection and stuff. like to some degree your opponent is a mere mortal and you can trick them in a "you thought i was doing this but aha! i'm doing that"

[tawny sandal]

And also probably me brain no work good and explain thought bad

[twin mountain]

maybe this sounds harsh but historical wargaming is also not really interested in high skill competitive deep dives on systems

like historic wargamers generally speaking do not replay the same scenario with clear rules over and over again

[arctic hollow]

but you can only acheive surprise through the hidden information elements of the game, i think

[twin mountain]

when they do, you get twilight struggle

and twilight struggle is absolutely an ashley game

nobody with 200 hours of twilight struggle is gonna be surprised by anything

you've seen the china card before

[sand cloak]

Women want one thing...overly complicated, granular wargames.

[twin mountain]

yes

:(

[sand cloak]

Don't birb smite me please!

[twin mountain]

my favorite recent assymetric 2 player wargame is ironwood

[sand cloak]

I beg you!

[twin mountain]

ironwood, my love

[arctic hollow]

man i should play a wargame again

[tawny sandal]

You could counterpoint that very rigid competitive games are trying to iron the confusion and complexity of combat down to a more “fair” playing field, but that’s also a bit unfair and I’m not the best person to break down deep rules complexity

[twin mountain]

yeah I'm sorry I think that's just wrong. like... I do not play dota as a way to simulate anything? '^_^

I'm not playing godtear to simulate anything

[tawny sandal]

And also there are definitely people who replay Waterloo/Gettysburg/etc over and over

[twin mountain]

the trappings of having little minis of people doing the game actions is not me trying to reach for some historical truth

https://mindclashgames.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/IMG_2562.jpg

[tawny sandal]

Right, that’s kinda what I’m saying

[twin mountain]

like, I'm not trying to capture some historic moment here

I do just wanna move 4 play 1 vision card

[arctic hollow]

random emily thought but i think it's interesting what goes in servers' wargames channels

[distant roost]

What's one you played and liked?

[twin mountain]

I mean competitive games are not even trying to do this

[fast glade]

I'm not sure what "rigid" means in this context, unless a non-rigid game is a game that's lacking in rules

[tawny sandal]

ONE OF US ONE OF US ONE OF US

[arctic hollow]

I've only really played warhammer and firelock but the firelock guy is banned from here so i won't discuss it

[arctic hollow]

because the Flying Circus one is like 65% people organizing and playing DCS

[tawny sandal]

I’m using it more to mean less focused on super tight tournament balance

[arctic hollow]

but I keep meaning to play A House Divided but I haven't had a weekend where I wasn't trying to cram in uni work in a while

[tawny sandal]

Again, this is kinda getting to a point where I’m feeling like I’m just explaining stuff poorly, and I apologize

[fast glade]

Or one that's very reliant on RNG, which, fair, I do like my RNG-heavy wargames that model the unpredictability of warfare through the uncertainty of what will actually happen when two units fight

[twin mountain]

there are absolutely poorly balanced extremely competitive games

[fast glade]

(Since these games can't do much with lack of information etc.)

[arctic hollow]

Those are usually by accident tho right

[twin mountain]

like. right now, in #card-gaming , people are talking about how there isn't a single competitive green deck anywhere outside modern

that's. that's 1 fifth of all cards

[tawny sandal]

If you don’t mind, I’m gonna tap out of this discussion since I don’t think I’m doing my thoughts or my side of the argument justice

[arctic hollow]

or one of the COINs

[echo marten]

"hmm...this list seems to be missing roughly One Cutter worth of points. I wonder what is about to fuck me up?"

[tawny sandal]

And I also am having trouble keeping track of what precisely the topic is now

[echo marten]

It's why I liked Ariadna scots in Infinity. They had so many hidden units they made it harder to predict the specific ones beause they had a lot of viable combinations of hidden shit.

[tawny sandal]

To loop to the start, I’m happy y’all are having fun with your games, I’m happy with mine, I might try it eventually and see what I think in practice

[echo marten]

While PanO has some real good hidden units but you know exactly what is not on the list if you're missing points.

[twin mountain]

yeah of course, I try and keep expectations realistic cause imo the worst experience is when you like... walk into a game expecting X and get Y

like I buy starcraft being sold on all the cool unit counters by blizzard trailers

actually it's just doing money better until you're literally diamond

just do macro better it doesn't matter, a-move with marines and you're top 10%

and maybe I'd have loved starcraft if people told me it was a macro game from day 1

[echo marten]

I bought starcraft 2 based on the units shown in previews and then it turned out a lot of the units I liked were campaign only. ;-;

'Yay Goliaths. I loved Goliaths...aww...why do I have Vikings?'

[tawny sandal]

I will say to jump off this, my favorite wargame experience was a team game I played at a museum where we were tasked with taking a town had no clear idea of the enemy force disposition or location, the ambiguity made the setup and initial turns incredible, especially with how we kept having to rework our plan on the fly

[arctic hollow]

i wanna play brood war again but microsoft is bds 😔

[tawny sandal]

How it started: “Oh boy, I’m just gonna roll up the left flank provide support for the main assault as needed!”
How it ended:
”The tank company has taken 33% casualties, but at least the bridge over the river is blocked by the burnt out Tiger. The Panthers are hammering us but we have been able to hold the flank. The infantry were able to dismount as a screen, but we don’t know how long they’ll hold the riverbank if they get more reinforcements.
The town assault is in shambles, but by god at least we held and kept it from being a rout”

[tawny sandal]

What kind of stuff are you interested in?

Like, type of wargame scale, period/universe, etc

[arctic hollow]

I want to get into historical stuff but I'm not sure what's Good™

[tawny sandal]

Good can have a few meanings here, since it depends what you want from it

Like HARPOON is insanely detailed and probably incredible for big boat nerds wanting to really feel like a admiral, but the WWII ship game made by Warlord Games is gonna be a lot more approachable

(I forget the name of that one unfortunately lol)

[arctic hollow]

hmhm

[twin mountain]

(god at risk of sounding like a tool: the word is rout)

[arctic hollow]

would you have a preferred ww2-modern naval board game?

or minis game

[twin mountain]

(in my defense this one can very easily totally change the meaning of a military sentence)

[tawny sandal]

I was pretty sure I misspelled it and I do actually appreciate that lol

So you’re good

[tawny sandal]

I don’t really have any experience with naval wargames funnily enough

However, if you’ll give me a minute I can hunt up the ones that I have heard others say good things about

I will say, there’s an interesting modification to Hail, Caesar! called Hail, Agrippa! that makes it into a naval combat game with bi and triremes, which is neat

Much more focused on smashing into each other, as was the style at the time

[arctic hollow]

as was the style at the time

what games do you like?

[tawny sandal]

More wwii-modern stuff, but I’ve also had fun with Napoleonic/ACW stuff in the past

[compact leaf]

Well...
There is the "you can target whatever part you want" when you hit someone in the back
(Sorry I didn't mean to butt in on this in a rude way)

[tawny sandal]

Okay, so, having played none of these myself I can’t personally vouch for them, however, I’ve heard some people in person and online mention playing these:
The Warlord Games one is called Victory at Sea, and is specifically WWII.
I mentioned Hail, Agrippa! before, that’s a sorta classical Mediterranean game (with the carried over order system from H!C, which is kinda cool and has potential for stuff to get wildly out of control)
General Quarters (not sure what the current number is, the guys I saw were playing 3) is very “passionate guys made this” indie, WWII focused, and pretty dense.
HARPOON is WWII to basically modern, and is there for absolute sickos (said with love)

There’s definitely a bunch more out there that I’m forgetting or don’t know of, and also a ton of age of sail stuff out there if you want wood hulls rather than steel

I will definitely say that naval wargaming is great because you don’t need many models (or tokens/chits/what have you) and your battlefield will often be a blue sheet so it’s really easy to get into and set up

Or maybe some irregularly shaped objects to be islands or coastline lol

Naval stuff often seems to do simultaneous turns, which is pretty cool

[tawny sandal]

I hope those are helpful, and I’m sure others could give you suggestions based on what they’ve actually played

[arctic hollow]

thank you :)

[native portal]

Catching the tail of this and jumping tangetially from it

Hidden info wargames play so fucking differently, it's wild

Everyone suddenly gets very conservative with their movement and choices (to begin with)

Hilariously sometimes you get the actual historical example of 'guy who is willing to roll the dice wins because his opponents are hesitating too much'

though sometimes you get cannae

so it's balanced :^)

[echo marten]

It's so funny with hidden info games where everyone is being super careful and trying to play the odds and there's one guy who's just LETS DO THIS!

[twin mountain]

I would love to do more with hidden information in my games

I liked the decoy system in firelock

[echo marten]

I remember seeing one a day or two ago where the other player could see the size of armies but not the composition.

So you'd know there was 3 units but not if they were infantry or archers etc

[native portal]

A lot of battles happen due to weird fuckups, local initiative, or poor info, it's insane

'I found a place where we can wade across a river, your motherfucking life is over'

I like how Chain of Command creates a naturally escalating battle from a Patrol phase to first contact, that's a cool system

[twin mountain]

Do tell

[native portal]

You play a weird little token game

ostensibly showing the movements of various scouts and infantry

once all the markers are locked, they become 'jump off points' where units arrive

The locked patrol markers move into cover, representing scouts finding contact and hunkering down

and from this initial contact, the engagement starts

it also naturally creates a delineated 'no man's land' on the table

Then once you're rolling command dice, all the options involve 'Activate or Deploy a unit', so you have the interesting choices between like

'do I use what I have on the board already to drive hard at the enemy and maybe take an early position'

'or do I keep my lead units where they are and focus on building up useful force to use later'

Oh and units are directed into the fight by Senior leaders. You need at least one off-table to get troops into position quickly. But Senior Leaders are great at activating units, so you want them ON table

so you have the choice of either reliable reinforcements or more responsive units already deployed

[echo marten]

And I imagine on-field puts them at risk of 'getting their ass killed'

[native portal]

(If you only have Junior leaders off-table, anything you spend a Command Die on deploying only shows up on a 4+)

[native portal]

Also a risk, yeah, but a pretty necessary one

There's a Force Morale mechanic

and losing a Senior leader is bad

although hilarious it's less bad than them routing

[echo marten]

Playing the Monash way and keeping all my senior commanders off board to just Logistics the other guy into submission.

[native portal]

Keep in mind that CoC is a platoon level game normally

so your Senior leaders are like

an LT

or senior sergeant

[echo marten]

(Monash is a very funny general because every account of him was that he was just an absolute dogshit tactical commander but he was a strategic and logistic expert.)

[native portal]

logistics win fuckin' wars

boring as shit, but so effective

[echo marten]

The quote about him I remember is 'The only captain I met who became more useful the further you put him from the actual guns'

[twin mountain]

That is excellent

Thank you Suki

[sudden halo]

Infinity is heavy on hidden info, but as you get better, you start to learn that the way to counter camo is to Leeroy Jenkins directly into it. They're paying points for camo and you're paying points for gun.

(In infinity camo is extremely good but moreso in your active turn,since you can move around somewhat unimpeded, which is a huge deal)

Re: the whole measure vs grid discussion. One thing I think was missed is accessibility. Grids are more accessible from a gameplay perspective, where measure movement is more accessible from an "own things" perspective.

It can be really nice to grab whatever you have around to give a game a shot and not have to hunt down a gridded board of some sort. On the other hand, despite me appreciating games that don't allow preeasuring because I think learning to eyeball ranges is fun, it's way more accessible to new players to have a grid and easily understand the physical space the fiction of the game is taking place in.

[twin mountain]

.... A grid is just like, a bunch of strings?

The most common solution I see is designers just making a deck of cards you lay out as your portable grid

[tepid steeple]

The universe is a symphony of strings

[orchid tulip]

Laying out a grid of strings for a grid to play on seems like it's made to get a tangle somewhere, or get half the playing field stolen by a kitty

Ember Kaiju fight when?

[tepid steeple]

I think the main thing with grids vs infnite space is like pie slicing but thats neutral

And you could also add it to a grid game mechanically really

Like I think thats as much a cool thing about having a grid game as it is important to a game like infinity

[trail fulcrum]

One idea for flowing grid creation is is just telling the players to grab string and set it

Diorama game

[left onyx]

(Whoops)

Pissing off everyone with my "1" grid, but because diagonal distances are Pythagorean the fastest way to calculate them is still pulling out a tape measure"

[ocean holly]

Eh, just use 1.5

[trail fulcrum]

Like these lines and the footprints designate zones

If that makes sense?

All that matters is zones

Zones are tagged

[tawny sandal]

Damn, I hate getting Cannae-ed

One of the funniest ways I saw someone do a fakeout to get the right headspace for replaying a historical ambush was a video where there was the person putting the game on who told one side that they were playing some random lesser known Hannibal vs the Romans battle, but let the side playing Hannibal know that nope, this is the battle of the Trebia and they get to set up a few units of hidden cavalry before the game

You can do a lot of fun stuff with a refereed wargame

But yeah, hidden deployments, either via “blip” markers, documentation during setup, referees, etc creates a really great air of uncertainty

[stable pelican]

i have dived into Bolt action and ordered the US starter set (the D-Day one)

[tawny sandal]

May the bag-o-dice swing regularly in your favor

(I quite enjoy how the activation mechanic makes it kinda swingy)

[fallen rune]

Premeasurement bans are such a weird rules thing

Just like, a weird flex to get good at pointless visual geometry

[echo marten]

I knew a guy who was nearly unbeatable in old 40k when AOE was shot at a distance without measuring.

He was a builder.

The fucker could tell exactly how far something was by looking over it down to a fraction of a centimeter.

[autumn sun]

Yeah, no premeasuring just encourages weird habits like knowing how long your forearm + pointer finger are.

[fallen rune]

The thing is it’s not particularly hard to learn it to a reasonable extent just by knowing table dimensions and doing the math

[autumn sun]

Yeah but it also acts as a barrier of entry for some people.

[fallen rune]

Yeah I think it’s kinda pointless

Not an interesting thing to know

[trail fulcrum]

Banning premeasuing just creates a invisible non game skill barrier

And funny habits like

Always knowing 8"

[modern snow]

I've only ever found it to make sense in rangeband-based games like infinity, where you know your weapons can reach but they may not be most optimal. even in that instance, there are strategies and techniques you can use to tease out range knowledge to be sure you're using the right weapon for the job

[modern snow]

hurr hurr hurr

but yeah absolutely

when you play games like that often enough you defintiely develop a skill for eyeballing increments of 8" that newer players don't have

not to mention playing on a digital sandbox completely messes with your perception

Relicblade has a ban on premeasuring for no discernable reason other than the creator not liking it

which is as fair a reason as any I guess

[fallen rune]

I haven’t played a lot of Infinity but my experience with similar albeit rarer stuff like that in kill team is that it’s just like

Fine to premeasure

[tawny sandal]

But yeah I’ve never really cared for bans on premeasuring

[sudden halo]

Its something that I think is largely bad game design but still enjoy?

I really liked eyeballing if I had created enough of a gap between units to send my Warcaster on an assassination run in Warmachine Mk2, and the conditional pre measuring in infinity where you have to take a chance on things some times.

But it is kind of a pointless skill and can be an accessibility barrier.

People like dexterity games though so it's kinda the same thing.

[tepid steeple]

I think with infinity the uncertainty is more important like with planning several steps ahead

Also for mines and hacking

[sudden halo]

Yeah, infinity with pre measuring could get really bogged down really fast.

Like 20 minutes spent measuring out the optimal paths, then starting to actually issue orders just to go right back to measuring the minute one of your guys gets flash pulsed and you have to make a plan b

[twin mountain]

-# coughgridscough

[orchid tulip]

Loved playing 'Munda before they fully allowed pre-measure and playing on the ZoneMortalis tiles, which were grids, so everyone just learned the size of the grid

[native portal]

As much as I don't like the look of grids, it beats fiddly tape measure stuff

Although I play the kind of games where it's acceptable to say 'hey I'm moving these guys just over 12 away so you can't shoot them'

In case there's arguments over measurements

[fallen rune]

Playing by intent is good stuff

[modern snow]

this is why I like Flashpoint/Deadzone so much

Grids for mobility and range, true line of sight for target acquisition

but the squares are large enough where if you have the itch to make terrain and a more visually appealing table (let your hobbyist freak flag fly!) you can and are even encouraged!

[twin mountain]

best grid game is clearly battalion

3 cells

perfect

if it were 2 cells, that would make it mtg

3 is the minimum number of cells for it to be a grid wargame and that's why it's the best

[modern snow]

I really wish Malev made his head-to-head rules for Demon Ship more publicly available

each player has a team of three operatives and makes their own labyrinth with on a 6x6 grid from a predetermined terrain pool, and each grid has an entrance and exit. line up each labyrinth's exit, and the goal is to get an operative through your opponent's Exit

it wasn't perfect but the first iteration was pretty fun and snappy

[sudden halo]

I think it's 4 for a grid. With 3 it's lanes like a moba

[sudden halo]

I do like the Flashpoint 3" grid a lot.

I think the worst option is DND 1" grids. The cells are so small and the ranges are all kind of long so you spend a ton of time counting squares when compared to using a tape measure.

Grids should simplify and save time.

Battletech is kind of a close second. It's not as bad in terms of overall grid fiddliness but it's not really doing itself any favors using the grid either.

[twin mountain]

Shhh that's a video game doesn't count

[sudden halo]

I have something in mind for a game loosely based on Arknights deployment paradigm, and I think it would work well if you had each player bring a half board with a 3" grid.

Kind of like what Warhammer Underworlds does.

So your map/territory was one of your list building decisions.

[sudden halo]

I do like Battalion's zones for the type of game that it is. does it have a reserve zone, or just the 3 parts of the formation? I feel like left, center, right, and reserve is the right amount of abstraction for a pre modern warfare game unless you want to go for full miniatures maneuvering.

[hollow crypt]

all mobas take place on a grid, got it

[twin mountain]

omg

you're right

it has a reserve zone for both players

so there are FIVE cells

haHAAAA

[twin mountain]

get fuuucked

(also in a full 2v2 major battle it actually has 5 combat zones, one center, two inner flanks, two outer flanks)

[sudden halo]

i really should pick it up, i've got it on a shortlist but haven't felt like i'd have time to play

at least not until after this humungous diorama-game this weekend is over

[sudden halo]

conceivably you could call it 8, since each players units are separate until they're fighting, but that's splitting hairs a bit

[twin mountain]

It's almost like columns and rows

I love it

[twin mountain]

@distant roost game in 20?

@sand sonnet @umbral prawn @ocean holly

[distant roost]

Yeah I'm good for it, revised a UN list, drafted a RDL list, still a little shaky on the action resolution ordering so rereading that section ahead of time

[compact leaf]

May we watch, perhaps?

(this is Ember right?)

[twin mountain]

ofccouurse

yes

[distant roost]

Yeah that's the one, for those coming in late, it's Ember: Obsidian Protocol
Rulebook link in this message: #1161730220164911187 message
Builder web app in this message: #1161730220164911187 message
TTS Mod here: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2935581987

[orchid tulip]

I am up waiting for the Ember strem

[twin mountain]

gonna sit on voice with the tts mod server open o/

[distant roost]

Sample RDL List for tonite

[clear shadow]

Mind if I watch?

Ember looks neat

[distant roost]

Yeah, c'mon in

[twin mountain]

absolutely

this is a public stream

[clear shadow]

❤️

[echo marten]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZe5J8SVCYQ&ab_channel=Jeff7181 @twin mountain and @distant roost discussing about if Clem is shooting the rocket or if the rocket is making the attack by exploding.

[twin mountain]

excellent game with clem @maiden ermine

victory to me o7

[distant roost]

Game's pretty cool, I got my VIP captain shot in the back by a stealth assassin maid and it owned

[twin mountain]

game moves pretty fast

like... we were on... round 4?

[umbral prawn]

Dang, looks like I just missed it

[twin mountain]

I think we were on round 4

and the game timer is 5 rounds

and hey we started less than 2 hours ago

honestly. that's pretty great

[distant roost]

Yeah it's a pretty good flow of 1-2 rounds of positioning and then it was a firefight

[compact leaf]

AGH
I FELL ASLEEP

[twin mountain]

not the fastest game-LOL

maybe I should've just recorded it and uploaded it haha

oh well

[distant roost]

20 minute rounds for 2 players on a tutorial game with 9 activations, that's not too bad

[twin mountain]

yeah it went fast

[compact leaf]

Ember has been extremely fast, even for new players

I dunno what magic sauce they put in there to do that, but I'm so happy it's there

[compact leaf]

Oh, did you figure out you're able to shoot the rocket launcher through smoke btw?

[distant roost]

I think the sauce is the lack of HP tracking beyond Link value

[compact leaf]

Because that's a thing RDL gets to do

[compact leaf]

Oh true

[distant roost]

Yeah the plan was to close in, pop smokes, and send missiles and explosions through and it worked good if it weren't for those meddling UN dodge dice in Evasion stance

[clear shadow]

The perfect dodge from shieldy reminded me this https://youtu.be/69X7tP6p7E0?si=AztdtKLJSAkH7_Mb

-# Except for the kill part of course

[compact leaf]

Yar they are a pain

I always

always bring an HMG

[distant roost]

Yeah that's the real immobilize token, doing the flippies so you got no forward momentum

[distant roost]

Suppression keyword is really valuable yeah

[clear shadow]

Lol

[sand sonnet]

I regrettably only just ended up getting home. Will have to dig in on the rule book and bother someone for a demo or small game sometime soon.

[echo marten]

I couldn't be there for the entire game but it seemed very fun.

[twin mountain]

Would be happy to teach you

[orchid tulip]

Watched most of round 1 before I had to sleep, am now more interested in playing a demo game

[compact leaf]

Yesss more ember people

[orchid tulip]

Anyone up to try some Ember on <t:1757689200:F> ?

[twin mountain]

@sand sonnet ^

I have a teaching setup I can run around then

[sand sonnet]

During my work day unfortunately.

[twin mountain]

Makes sense

[orchid tulip]

Meant <t:1757775600:F>. Damn timestamp site starting weeks with sunday

@twin mountain @sand sonnet

[distant roost]

Saturday's a lot more accessible for NA folks yeah

[orchid tulip]

I meant to take the afternoon after work for me, so go for the 2nd to last day of the week for the stamp

[twin mountain]

sure!

[sand sonnet]

Unfortunately not available this Saturday either. I might have time Sunday this week.

[orchid tulip]

Sunday is an uncertainty for me mostly cuz of weather

[sand sonnet]

I could do <t:1757977200:F>?

[twin mountain]

works for meee o..o

[orchid tulip]

That's very late for me

My mind was very mush last night when Winged and CLem played

[twin mountain]

makes sense they're EU

let's vaguely aim for sunday

[orchid tulip]

Ye

If the current weather stays until Sunday then I'll def be home

[sand sonnet]

Worst case I should be free the following weekend.

[orchid tulip]

Do you have specific lists for this or is it bring your own?

[twin mountain]

yeah I have 2 600 point lists

[orchid tulip]

Oki

[distant roost]

600 points is kinda an interesting threshold too because it's lower mech count

[sand sonnet]

Yeah I assume it's more of a learning the game kind of duel rather than a full fledged fight.

[twin mountain]

yeah of course

[orchid tulip]

600 is like 2 mechs and maybe some drones?

[twin mountain]

yup yup

it's like 2 mechs 2.5 drones on both sides

fwiw you can make some crazy dirt cheap mechs

I think @maiden ermine brought a mech down to 66 points

that is like. you can get 5 of those guys for the price of one of our bigger hero mechs

I think that's really cool but for the most part I'm not gonna explore that space in beginner games just to keep the turns moving faster

[maiden ermine]

to be fair the 66 point guy really is complete trash

[sand sonnet]

But is five trash things reasonably able to do as much or more as one good thing?

[maiden ermine]

I landed on a 99 point guy that I think will punch above its weight instead

[twin mountain]

actually yes, and I think that's part of why I beat clem as convincingly yesterday as I did

[distant roost]

Is the 99 point build a mech with no backpack and 1 arm and generic pilot?

[twin mountain]

I brought 3 mechs and 2 drones, he brought 4 mechs

drones are just. good. they just need people to tell them what to do

I think your standard team comp is gonna include drones = number of pilots

drones are extremely high value for their point cost they just need to be right clicked around by your actual humans on the field

I know one of the new factions in development are dedicated dronelords

the guardians of freedom

they have parts that generate 2+ command points and can spend command points in the action phase to fuck people up

lot of gundam funnel nonsense

https://tenor.com/view/gundam-funnels-hi-nu-gif-18411564475846896520

[maiden ermine]

this was the list that I have not tried or used at all

[sand sonnet]

What are the current factions in a fluff-wise way?

[twin mountain]

oh man the missile doggies

they're so good

[maiden ermine]

but I think 99 point snipers will do well in combination with the suppression hmg

[distant roost]

Yeah it turns out diving drone plus handler is a tangible numbers disadvantage

[twin mountain]

two current factions released:

• kind of a more grounded mechwarrior style gribbly armored core faction with big shields and huge miniguns and insane amounts of warheads.
• digitized vtubers running high tech laser swords and stealth camo and railguns and cool scout drones that let them dodge stuff with 20 dodge dice

I like joking that they're basically the he/him mech faction and the she/her mech faction

and we're gonna get more enby factions later

[twin mountain]

this is one of the RDL gribbly mechwarrior lists

this is my vtuber list

[maiden ermine]

I think when the brains in jars faction comes out I will play them instead

[twin mountain]

the GOF do seem pretty fucking cool yeah

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJyU3fktx30 the UN

[distant roost]

Turns out Link can reroll electronics rolls in Ember per p. 68, guess that consciousness digitization applies to the firewalls

[twin mountain]

Oh, thanks clem

Lot of fiddly little rules

Something I should've brought up and forgot to: you can break stealth by just walking into me

Any base to base contact breaks stealth

Drones are very good for this

Zero-k style

[distant roost]

Yeah, the 1.0 PDF dated 4/10/25 also has a couple editing things like torso damaged tokens on p. 96 having highlight tokens rules

[twin mountain]

Yeah there are a ton of errors

[distant roost]

Highlight tokens sure are neat though

[distant roost]

Yeah just found that out this morning, which is why I now realize why the whips have 2 range and so on

My UN working list was gonna have a stealth user going loud with a pile bunker and now I see the benefits of short range silent dancing

[twin mountain]

yeah I had some hyper precise spacing on you

[twin mountain]

wait, where does it say this?

I'm looking

ahhh I see it

in 4.10

my lil porcupine

bringing VALUE to the squad

[distant roost]

Intercept keeps on winning

[twin mountain]

teehee™

i've discovered something

[orchid tulip]

Winged's description of UN makes me wanna play UN but RDL mechs look better in my eyes

[distant roost]

What's cool about the factions on first glance is they support cool tricks if you spec for them and point limits keep it honest

[orchid tulip]

Do we have any lore on the other 5 factions besides UN and RDL?

[twin mountain]

omggggg

it's @modern snow !!!

[modern snow]

[twin mountain]

https://gamefound.com/en/projects/black-site-studios/mobile-arms

[compact leaf]

Perhaps this would help?
#1161730220164911187 message

They left a little blurb at the start of each one about faction lore

[compact leaf]

GoF is the only other faction with lore right now iirc.
They rescinded digitization of consciousness and put their actual brains into their mechs instead (a little more deets in the message linked above)

[orchid tulip]

What info do we have on PD and ACE?

[compact leaf]

Ah..
I've actually never heard of these either, unless you're referring to the mercenary factions?

Which are basically all collabs with 3D artists and games and stuff

...and so don't really have any lore from Ember

Ah yeah, PD and ACE are the merc factions.
Their models are from elsewhere (iirc) but their stuff can be used in any faction

ACE is where White Dwarf is from, PD is where all the Reaper drones come from

But that's the extent of my knowledge of the collabs

[orchid tulip]

Oki

[compact leaf]

Okay I found the game where White Dwarf is from
https://store.steampowered.com/app/3127770/ACE_Strategy_Mecha_Nova/

I remember the artist for the Reapers being from outside of Queti but I might be wrong about that one...
Maybe they'll get some lore soon, then?

[modern snow]

Been seeing a lot of commentary about how the Kodiak looks like it's straight out of Heavy Gear/ Front Mission

Good!

[compact leaf]

Kodiak is very hunter-like in the best way possible

[sand sonnet]

Give it wider shoulders and it's pretty much a Wanzer.

[twin mountain]

Yessss

Also

https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/1498550/view/511843161373409795?l=english

[compact leaf]

Oh already?

[twin mountain]

If you do play it please tell me what they've changed

I think they have a new dice system?

[compact leaf]

We'll try, though we've actually no recollection of playing original A!

[compact leaf]

We can at least tell you if the dice are new, though

[twin mountain]

Please do!

[trail fulcrum]

Everyone is brain in jars

[compact leaf]

GoF just puts the jars in their mechs instead of leaving them at home, right?

Everyone else shoves a digitized consciousness in there?

[twin mountain]

Yeah everyone else is software

It's all gen lock shit

Meanwhile the gof are cymeks from the dune prequels

[compact leaf]

Mhm mhm

[jade finch]

no overtly written switches, and everything is in percentile

the smaller percentage line for the abilities is for "crits" which are automatically applied rather than spending ! (no obvious dice were rolled)

i guess dice with symbols too scary for video gamer is their conclusion?

[sudden halo]

Yeah, Carlos talked about it some in the krug seminar

Mostly was all the back and forth that happens with the dice resolution in the tabletop felt slow and clunky in a videogame format.

They initially did a 1:1 recreation of aristeia! but they felt through testing that it didn't work as well as they wanted and made some changes to make a better video game.

[jade finch]

@twin mountain see above for the most obvious differences i can spot

[twin mountain]

booooooooooo

[jade finch]

in case wren knows more differences between the board game and the adaptation, feel free to mention

[twin mountain]

boooooooooooooooooooo

[twin mountain]

https://tenor.com/view/dog-bird-run-chase-gif-9627749

[jade finch]

lmao i know you're now having fun with obsidian protocol's dice system

ok tbf you've always been having fun with symbol dice

[sudden halo]

I haven't really played either much. I just was at the Q&A where they talked about it. They were providing context with what to expect from the Infinity video game adaptation.

Where they're similarly recreating the game 1:1 and then going from there.

[jade finch]

ah

[distant roost]

The RDL list has been refined since I figured out how to add drones to the army builder and now I have 500% more missile by volume

[twin mountain]

oh clem Ifound a mistake in our last play - when a part is destroyed it's fully removed, not converted to the discarded state

which makes sense

so if I destroy an arm the shoulder stuff goes too

[distant roost]

Yeah that's what I was seeing today reviewing the common actions, most of the discard card states are for discarding handheld guns to either get rid of a dodge penalty or get a free hand to two-hand the other arm's weapon which is a neat bit of flexibility

[twin mountain]

it's also a speed play

I used it for speed against thijs once

since discard is a phase 1 fast action it lets you dodge melee

just drop the gun and run

[distant roost]

Oh yeah because Discard's a Swift phase action you can use it as the starter action and then use the extra action for whatever

[twin mountain]

most UN legs have movement actions that are just 1 action point

so swift discard + use my legs

[distant roost]

RDL's also got the jet pack backpack with 1 tick move so that's a good "I don't want to be here any more" move

Yeah UN move options are pretty wild

"Yes I would like a 8 flight backpack"

[twin mountain]

yesss

[echo marten]

Running screaming, parts shedding everywhere.

[distant roost]

Speaking of the jet packs, I just think they're neat for posting up with this UN list:

[hollow crypt]

alright that's pretty rad. I get why folks are so hyped for this game

[twin mountain]

i can teach you

[hollow crypt]

I might be able to find time, but I am relatively busy right now

I'll see if I can pop in next time y'all are going

[umbral prawn]

I could be up for Ember today at <t:1757718000:t>, though I have not had time to read much of the rulebook or make a list

[twin mountain]

don't worrt i gotlists

and teaches

but i may be busy tonight specifically sadly

[hollow slate]

I need to take a look at rules and the list builder, definitely looking forward to playing UN

[distant roost]

It's a little tough for me to do this weekend on account of IRL guests and next week I can also help with getting people up to speed on the Ember

[hollow slate]

I can do next week, Wednesday or Friday work best

[distant roost]

Yeah, Wednesday after shift at <t:1758148200:F> or later can work pretty good for more robot blasting

The action economy of the game's pretty familiar to folks who have done Lancer (you get a free move and two quick action pips, no action duplications), the part that takes a little familiarizing is timing who goes when - you have to commit to a action phase (1 of 6), each phase goes in order, and your first action on the turn has to be of the type you committed to (the other action tick can be different) (free move comes first) (more than one pilot on the same action phase gets tiebroken by the pilot's initiative value, low is better).

While full actions (two tick actions) can be devastating, they mean you have to commit to that phase so other player can do mind games and commit to an earlier phase and try to juke or control you.

[echo marten]

Lan-cer. I think I know it.

[jade finch]

man... i should read the chinese rulebook to see if the translation has any room for improvement...

but book long...

[hollow slate]

That it reminds me of the X-Wing initiative, but with cool mechs, is one of the reasons I backed the game

[twin mountain]

oh, that's interesting. I for sure found it very different from x-wing initiative, because x-wing had every unit locked to a full advantage initiative number

so everyone declares in ascending initiative order and then fights in descending initiative order

the ember model is basically just battlecon / exceed

you have a list of options and you do RPS by picking options

and unlike battlecon/exceed, you build your list of options into your mech

it's neat

it naturally encourages diversity of tools on mechs just to make them harder to predict

like, I put KC armor on my mechs so they have a fast phase option

[hollow slate]

The initial pitch was more similar IIRC, but it's still in the same boathouse for me, between different-phased turns and pilot initiative

And the little wheel, lol

[distant roost]

Yeah the phased initiative is what I'm finding real interesting on the tactical play

[orchid tulip]

My LGS has a interest check for the Embers core box

[dark kindle]

Oh fascinating

That's cool tech

[orchid tulip]

Quick ember question, does RDL have access to any stealth tech?

[distant roost]

No Stealth tagged gear far as I can tell, they just have the dankest smoke

[hollow slate]

If the Cavalry expansion means anything, they have ECM and smoke stuff, but not stealth

Just looking at my boxes, lol

[distant roost]

UN Stealth is tied to specific body part and they get an extra one of that type so there's visual variety - while there's nothing stopping you from using 2 of the same part in a list there's a couple of visual variations to help keep your units straight (no pilot dupes though)

[compact leaf]

RDL so far doesn't get access to any stealth stuff (at least not the same way UN does)

What they do get is stuff like the highlight pack (forces stuff to shoot at the bearer instead of other possible targets) and smoke

And very good support options

[distant roost]

Yeah if you spec for a support core on RDL you can do some cool link restoration and spotting tricks

[compact leaf]

points at that one backpack that gives mechs an entire extra activation

That too

Echoes is crazy

[trail fulcrum]

Its wild

[compact leaf]

It's probably gonna be in every single list I make, tbh

[distant roost]

I think if you give the free opportunity to that one RDL torso that gives an extra firing pip while stationary you wind up being action positive

[compact leaf]

Well
You're action positive regardless

That one is just more action positive

[twin mountain]

what's everyone's general availability today

👀

[orchid tulip]

I am here right now?

[distant roost]

I too have availability now ish

[twin mountain]

sadly I am not free for the next hour or two haha

[orchid tulip]

I am technically around 4h until I get mush

[twin mountain]

noted!

@sand sonnet @umbral prawn

[orchid tulip]

Just me being me, could one get a clarification on what we are available for? One would assume Embers but unsure

[twin mountain]

oh derp sorry yes i mean ember

I'm sorta trying to figure out my day and potential ember

[jade finch]

might be roped into physical activities (holy shit i am going out of my apartment these days) in 3.5 hours and if that happens i'm likely unable to participate til at least 6 hours later, but otherwise i'd love to join if it's a tutorial or watch if it's a "ppl who have an idea on how to play plays" game

[orchid tulip]

Then you shouldn't watch me

[distant roost]

I'm free right now if folks want to get talked through on navigating the rules and figure out how to build a list and get literate on actions so you can join the "idea on how to play" club

[orchid tulip]

I'd be up for some action/phase/dial navigation

[twin mountain]

I'm free nowish

ideally I wanna sequence a game between two newbies

eku is free for... another 2 hours

@open grail was vaguely interested in learning, also @umbral prawn and @sand sonnet ... hmm who else. @ocean holly I think

@latent rover maybe

[distant roost]

I'm streaming the test match between Eku and me now if folks wanna watch

We're still setting up for round 1 but should be a fun one

[twin mountain]

well that's lovely, problem solved

[latent rover]

I am mid shift jestie

Sorry

I’d be free if you pay me a living wage to be online

:P

(I hope I’ll be free some other time tho)

[twin mountain]

@distant roost

https://tenor.com/view/the-expanse-space-battle-pella-free-navy-season-6-gif-12420305343718091260

[sand sonnet]

I’m still busy today but will be free tomorrow.

[distant roost]

Today's UN list in the scrum

[orchid tulip]

My RDL that almost won

[distant roost]

Forgot to take a screen shot of the final standing on the board which was 3 RDL mechs melee locked by a low profile UN mech with a black box and a dream

[orchid tulip]

Once you you start picking up on your builds and the flow of rounds, the game really flows on

[distant roost]

Primary Task was to grab black boxes at the board corners and get them to a 2x2 zone in the center. Secondary task for Clem was claim a bounty by destroying a mech of the other player's choice. Secondary Task for Eku was to headhunt and destroy one of Clem's mechs Eku picked.

UN had to drop submachine guns to pick up the boxes (not enough spare hands and too many guns) then got pummeled by missile drones from RDL. RDL also laid down a withering amount of HMG fire and took out a UN mech through the power of shooting many many times. Not quite enough to claim the headhunt, the UN captain nail gunned a drone to clear the way for UN pilot Panzer to make it to the 4th square in the middle occupied by 3 RDL mechs and claim the victory points just before much shin kicking

[orchid tulip]

Really like this game, and really hope I can get some IRL friends to try it somehow and get the LGS to actually get it in stock

[native portal]

Wish I had more time but this looks neat

[orchid tulip]

I feel like most, if not all, of the clunk I experienced was due to TTS being clunky for miniature games

[distant roost]

Yeah it was about 45 minutes setup to get TTS to play nice and set up all the cards and tokens and the actual play went fast with about 1 round every 30 minutes with 11 actors on the board (not counting many missiles)

I hadn't used TTS since 2020 when testing Gunmetal Sonata so it was a learning curve checking mod dependencies

[orchid tulip]

Wish I could tie spawning dice to hotkeys

[twin mountain]

if you ever do have time i'd love to teach o/

[compact leaf]

Wah!
How is everyone enjoying Ember?

Any particular parts you've found you like?

[distant roost]

That Echoes backpack you mentioned made a splash in a big way amping up a user with the HMG and power cooling

[orchid tulip]

Ye, echoing a HMG with powercooler is kinda dope

[orchid tulip]

I'd be up for another game today

[hollow crypt]

I'd be down to learn ember, I'm reasonably free today

[orchid tulip]

Unsure if I'm at a point were I can teach well

[distant roost]

You did pretty great yesterday; I'm confident in your abilities

I should be free closer to <t:1757880000:F> and can get another stream going to onboard more folks

[orchid tulip]

Once my nails are dry I can play

Does Keywords stack? Like if a weapon have Armour Piercing 1 an get it again, does it count as AP2?

[distant roost]

They do to my understanding

[orchid tulip]

Thinking of changing Misty for Spike in my RDL list, which gives all my firing actions AP1

[distant roost]

Yeah Misty's super powerful if you want to go later in the round and Spike's solid all day

[orchid tulip]

Swapped Keyhole -> Misty and put Spike in Mistys old mech

[distant roost]

Yeah now when you do Tactical timing you don't have to commit to Echoes and can now railgun

[orchid tulip]

Ye, and my HMG+Railgun are better

Still annoying with all the dodge dice that UN have

[trail fulcrum]

Misty + Spike is nasty

Hmg spike being doubled up with misty seems really funny

[distant roost]

Yeah I'm bringing extra missiles for that

[trail fulcrum]

Aww 🙁

[distant roost]

It's okay, they'll be shot down by RDL's eight million intercepts

[orchid tulip]

Up to play?

[hollow crypt]

at this moment? yeah sure just need ~5 minutes

[twin mountain]

I can teach

Oh lovely wasn't necessary

[distant roost]

@orchid tulip Turns out we got Crush a little wrong yesterday, Mechs can Crush a drone to knock it back 1 space at the expense of killing your maneuver/move action

[orchid tulip]

I feel like you probs would have done better job than me

[twin mountain]

Probably but I'm happy to let you guys do your best

[hollow crypt]

it was a very functional teach

game's fun

okay wait I'm sold completely??

[distant roost]

Those legs rule

[hollow crypt]

does anyone know where I can find what this symbol is in the rulebook? I'm completely failing to find it

[twin mountain]

Parry

When you're melee-d from anywhere but your back, you can nominate a part with a parry value to force that as the defensive part

You get bonus armor dice equal to the parry value

[hollow crypt]

ah thanks

[compact leaf]

Agh...
KS parts

A shame we can't get them physically anymore

Unless...

Oh!
This is from the LAB kit!

Sweeeeet :3

[maiden ermine]

having trouble finding this in the rules, if I gain an extra firing tick, say from the glacier core, can it use an already fired weapon?

I assume yes because the bit in the rules says "you can perform actions that have already been performed in the same action opportunity" but it's a bit ambiguous to me

[compact leaf]

You can't use the same action twice in an activation

Unless it's the same one on a different card

Unless something has changed

[distant roost]

Page 32 is the reference, you can repeat an action on a free tick and free ticks come after all the action ticks are used per p. 31

So if you have one short firing action that can be used again after doing a different action for the other short tick

[compact leaf]

Oh that is new

You just have to be mindful that it can only be used with single-tick weapons

[maiden ermine]

yeah that's fine

it means I can pop the same shoulder railgun again

[twin mountain]

yes absolutely

it's exactly lancer overcharge rules

• you can bypass the no-duplicate-actions rule
• the extra tick cannot be glommed with previous ticks to make bigger actions

[maiden ermine]

yeah that's what I thought but it was not worded so clearly

[twin mountain]

so for example if you have 3 ticks from 2 ticks + extra tick

you can do a medium and then a short

but not a short and then a medium

[compact leaf]

Precisely

[maiden ermine]

it means this guy works

[compact leaf]

Yar

Kinda dies to dodge dice though

[maiden ermine]

well that's why mech number 2 has a stratus

[compact leaf]

Ah...
The banned HMG..

[maiden ermine]

is it

[compact leaf]

It is
But not for being strong or anything

It's a Kickstarter part, so it's functionally impossible to get

[maiden ermine]

well, that's not a problem for TTS

[compact leaf]

Yar

[echo marten]

...what else is there that's got suppression? As knocking people out of dodging seems important

[maiden ermine]

there's a smaller HMG

[compact leaf]

I'm pretty sure it's just the two HMGs right now

At least in RDL

[maiden ermine]

the other one probably is better

[compact leaf]

The other ones are the cannon backpack and the fairy SMGs UN gets

And I think that's it?

[maiden ermine]

stratus requiring a 3 tick action is pretty rough

[compact leaf]

Yeaahh...
I mean you can still do stratus into railgun if you take the torso for it though

I really do think taking the railgun with an HMG on the same mech is close to optimal, since you'll at least be able to guarantee one of the big red dice guns goes off before your opponent gets back into dodge stance

[twin mountain]

just pile yellow dice on them

[compact leaf]

Enough of my rants though, I clearly need to read the new 1.0 rules to see all the tiny changes

[twin mountain]

you don't need suppression to take out dodgers, dodge is efficient against red chunky salsa hits but pretty awful against yellow dice

[compact leaf]

Hmmm
Spike + HMG...

Oh!

There is also a new cooler that's going to add red dice instead of yellow dice

It should work with the railguns :3c