Because inevitably that happens.
#Indie+Alternative Wargaming
sand sonnet
potent wyvern
yeah munda is one of the ones i found that does
sand sonnet
I'd look at Frostgrave/Stargrave too maybe?
sand sonnet
If I think of more interesting campaign systems I'll toss em your way.
There are others out there they just escape me at the moment.
sleek trail
Whoever shows up
sand sonnet
The too real answer if we're being honest.
potent wyvern
I'd look at Frostgrave/Stargrave too maybe?
Checked it out, no real guidelines there
sleek trail
Genuinely its normally just who is around and wants to play a game
tepid steeple
And rotating players
modern snow
Fallout Factions's rulebook apparently has a shockingly good section on running campaign games; not just for the system, but in general. worth a read!
sand sonnet
I ignored that one after Wasteland Warfare but maybe I'll give it a look.
modern snow
I ignored that one after Wasteland Warfare but maybe I'll give it a look.
yeah fallout doesn't really do it as an IP for me, just not a sandbox I'm really interested in playing in. The rulebook is pretty well-written IMO so it's good to have in your collection if you like hoarding rulesets :3
sand sonnet
It’s a decent game with some very clunky crunch holding it back in places.
I am a pre-Bethesda fallout fan so enjoy that Modiphius gave us some oldies as well as the new stuff.
modern snow
It’s a decent game with some very clunky crunch holding it back in places.
honestly though who doesn't have clunky crunch holding them back in places?
looks at my knees knowing I have to climb a flight of stairs
sand sonnet
Trying to determine which card decks you need to buy in order to play which factions in WW is awful.
potent wyvern
Fallout Factions's rulebook apparently has a shockingly good section on running ...
this was a great recommendation cosu. ty
twin mountain
Hey guys I'm trying to jog my memory - was there anything sketchy about the BLKOUT guys?
I vaguely remember being told there was so I stopped paying attention to the game
But it's still my favorite take on Infinity
tepid steeple
Afaik theyre very open about vet owned/operated and like nothing else
So not really anything concrete
supple shale
Yeah, they have that « vet owened » branding on the website big time
But I don’t remember anything about them being On Some Shit actual
tepid steeple
Seeing how they run their discord might say something but thats more effort than I wanna do
trail fulcrum
It's the kind of people who go Vet Owned is like hmmm
supple shale
It’s tough with ultramodern/near future Operators Operating Operationally games because the vibes are so often Like That
modern snow
They sketched me out with their prior game, killwager
tepid steeple
Theyre pretty quiet about killwager now too
trail fulcrum
Kinda huh okay that's kinda sus vibes
sand sonnet
I'd dive their discord to scope out the vibes if someone has a link.
trail fulcrum
But might be unfairly lumping them in with
modern snow
They very much infiltrated smaller infinity spaces with a "how do you do my fellow local" vibe only to immediately try to shill killwager
sand sonnet
They very much infiltrated smaller infinity spaces with a "how do you do my fell...
So the OG Guildball approach to marketing.
modern snow
Very much "you're only engaging with us to shill" and gave me the ick
twin mountain
They sketched me out with their prior game, killwager
Oh what was that
twin mountain
Very much "you're only engaging with us to shill" and gave me the ick
Got it, thanks cosu
modern snow
Oh what was that
Blkout 1.0
twin mountain
If you have direct experience with them that's the best scouting possible
Happy to just invest in people who are lovely instead
-# like you
sand sonnet
Got one of my local stores to stock Mobile Arms for a reason.
modern snow
Got one of my local stores to stock Mobile Arms for a reason.
WHEEEE
Stoked for the Gamefound, it's gonna make things so much easier for LGS
twin mountain
My game design brain keeps spinning back to BLKOUT and I may make a game inspired by its core engine sometime. I really appreciate how it handles first player advantage / alpha strike stuff by simply never distinguishing between shooting and getting shot in return
I do find that really fascinating. The only other game I know that engages with that space is bushido
Another incredibly cringe game with excellent systems
tepid steeple
My local group plays bushido but getting past the cringe is a lot
And idk if Ill ever get there haha
Might check out the rules though!
compact leaf
I vaguely remember being told there was so I stopped paying attention to the gam...
Iirc it was mostly just not passing the vibe check and uhhh..
Based on what cosu said we were right ._.
twin mountain
Basically Bushido and BLKOUT both handle attacks like this:
- oh you're attacking somebody?
- OI defender do you wanna just attack back? Like you can spend your activation right now and fucking fight
- eyyy everyone fights
Like there's literally no difference between you running up and attacking someone and them running up and attacking you. It's about the choice to engage in symmetric combat that you think is advantageous to you
Like maybe you wanna do this gunfight because you have cover and they don't
But if you're both out in the open the games just don't distinguish
That's fascinating to me
sand sonnet
I feel like AROs in Infinity try to do that but it's clunkier.
twin mountain
Yes infinity does try to do this but it's much weirder and clunkier
compact leaf
There are a lot more variables
twin mountain
But BLKOUT and Bushido just Do This
Like everyone gets some ap at start of round
If you run up and fight someone you spend ap and they spend ap and you have a symmetric roll off to kill each other
Like activation order and initiative is all about picking the fights not getting to shoot first
I kinda love that
orchid tulip
WingOut/WingDo when?
trail fulcrum
Heavy Gear also does this
trail fulcrum
You declare an attack on someone they can spend their action point to shoot back in a gunfight or you dont spend the action point and you eat the shot
Shooting is simulating a gunfight with a roll off in the dice system
twin mountain
Simultaneous roll off?
Fucking excellent
That's exactly what I'm looking for yes
trail fulcrum
Eating the shot is also a roll off but like with the Dodge value
You either spend your action point shooting back or boosting the dodge value, or you just dont and hope your base dodge is enough and you can spend the point on other things in your groups activation
twin mountain
https://youtu.be/6491wCsSHyg this game is truly fascinating. Tldr no list building in advance, you can spend credits (victory points) at the start of every round to warp in any reinforcements you want RTS style. Try to maximize return on investment.
sleek trail
I like aros a lot
Its clunky but it also allows a lot more problem-making
Not to say that burning your activation to react isnt also a decent model
But nothing has the sheer joy of an aro net
sleek trail
https://youtu.be/6491wCsSHyg this game is truly fascinating. Tldr no list buildi...
Mike Hutchinson just does banger design
sudden halo
But nothing has the sheer joy of an aro net
agreed, AROs feel right to me
though infinity works for me because it feels like each player is taking turns directing an action movie
orders are "camera time"
I do think burning activations to do reactions feels kind of bad. worse though is only being able to activate a unit once. going back to a really traditional feeling Alternating Activation game like Kill Team after playing a lot of Infinity really feels like you can't really get any work out of any of your pieces, so you just walk them up, roll some dice and see how it turns out.
Its one thing I like a whole lot in Warcrow, being able to chain activate at the cost of stress.
I maintain that there's an infinity adjacent game, where you reverse the order paradigm that would really work.
Your army is ~3 fireteams of ~4 units. You alternate activation by fireteam.
Everyone's order only applies to themselves. NCOs give a Wildcard order that can be used in their fireteam. Lts and Comms/Command models give Wildcard orders that can be used anywhere, but only during the activation of the unit that contributes the order.
infinity has too much balance built around its design to work with a simple change, but i think it would solve the alpha strike/igyg problems, and also feel more like youre leading a cohesive squad than like you had a gang of sacrifices and cool guys
echo marten
They're not sacrifices, they're 'Extras who don't get speaking lines' 😛
sudden halo
and when that extra hits a Flash Pulse everyone cheers!
echo marten
I do find it funny that the old LOTR game that GW put out almost literally had that. Where only named characters got 'fate' that let them negate wounds.
Everyone else just fell down and died.
modern snow
https://youtu.be/6491wCsSHyg this game is truly fascinating. Tldr no list buildi...
2E is due sometime this year or next, IIRC!
sleek trail
I maintain that there's an infinity adjacent game, where you reverse the order p...
Im designing something like this, actually
Very early stages but very much that "three fireteams of three guys"
maiden abyss
I like aros a lot
I also like aros, I'm good friends with some!
Oh
Wait
Not like that
twin mountain
2E is due sometime this year or next, IIRC!
oh hell yeah
modern snow
oh hell yeah
Also down if you ever want to stumble through ABS w/ me on TTS
twin mountain
Also down if you ever want to stumble through ABS w/ me on TTS
abs being? 👀
oh! a billion suns!
I'm interested ngl
like, the whole "hey this is a super generic game you can use any of your models, just roll die size = to ship" stuff doesn't spark joy but I'm fascinated by the money economy
faascinated
hrngh
okay
the core combat engine is absolutely not my jam damn
that's... 1, 2, 3, 4 rolls?
"apply critical malfunctions" may also be another roll
so like... if a gunship moves into range of another gunship and then shoots it
that's... 12 rolls?
less if they're not engaged
gunship moves into range of another gunship and nobody is engaged and then shoots it is 9 rolls
hmm maybe you can group the dice from all the weapons systems into one bigger roll
that does compress it down to 6
sudden halo
I think it's just 2 rolls, though the number of dice could be quite high. Depends on the critical malfunctions and how they work.
Still a lot of dice and a lot of processing
Wonder how it goes in practice, sometimes a lot of steps are deceptively simple in practice.
ABS is very much not what I normally look for in a wargame but it looks super interesting as something that could be an all in one box boardgame.
sleek trail
mike has described A Billion Suns as "his weird second album after his smash hit"
and i think thats a pretty accurate description
modern snow
absolutely agree
twin mountain
Urge to create a wargame rising
compact leaf
Saaaame
twin mountain
I kinda wanna bring back strike trigger and make it a 1v1 wargame
I have the technology
umbral prawn
I'd playtest it
trail fulcrum
Still trying to work on Pokemon as a 1v1 wargame ahha
twin mountain
You guys are sweethearts
I need to actually pull away from depression enough to make a prototype good enough for tts
We'll See
sand sonnet
Take care of yourself first, make a thing second
sudden halo
I'm hoping when I finish all the things i need to do in September I can get back to work on creating. Between work and like 3 different tabletop commitments when I have the inspiration I don't have the energy
twin mountain
yeah I for sure have inspiration. I stay up at night staring at the ceiling thinking about dumb dice mechanics
but I also have a day job and i'm taking care of some lovely creatures and i just got shit to dooo
left onyx
Oh I remember Strike Trigger, would love to be poked if/when you post about it
I also still have that homebrew/expansion character I made and am real proud of
sudden halo
I really like the Guardians of the Mounds.
Normally I think skull face helmets are super played out and boring but these, along with the name of the unit, give them a very Lord of the Rings feel
compact leaf
The mouths seem slightly smiley and I genuinely cannot decide whether I'm okay with it or not
But they do look a lot better than the renders
tepid steeple
I think skull helmet to protect like graves is cooler than just punisher vibes yeah
sleek trail
The open beta for A Billion Suns: Second Edition has dropped, sine its been posted about here recently https://planetsmashergames.com/a-billion-suns/abs2-beta/discord
didnt think it would copy all of mike's post
twin mountain
! oooh
More broadly, I want to turn A Billion Suns into the best spaceship miniatures game toolkit available: featuring an awesome, simple and fun core game system, plus a host of different game modes, list-building modes and campaign options to let you play whatever sort of spaceship game you want.
hmmm :/
that is not good code smell to me
I guess we'll see
sleek trail
ill hear it out
twin mountain
I will too but
Limited Mode: You pre-build your lists, but deploy them dynamically. I explored this in Rotvarlden and it’s pretty awesome. I expect this to be the default entry point to the game.
Unlimited Mode: This is the classic ABS1 mode. You have infinite money and requisition ships on the fly.
oof
sleek trail
i guess
twin mountain
it kinda comes down to the culture I suppose. if everyone ends up playing unlimited mode then I'm very interested
but I suspect limited mode is gonna be default play and unlimited mode is gonna be the weirdo mode people don't use as much
sleek trail
i think unlimited should be presented as the Big Boy mode
twin mountain
I want the big boy mode to be the main mode of play
sleek trail
but also to play a mode like unlimited in actual physical space its fucking hard
twin mountain
or positioned as the one getting primary support
sleek trail
if you don't have the physical collection of spaceship figures
twin mountain
that's true but I guess very predictably-winged take: I'm not that interested in the spaceship diorama aspect of the game and frankly if they just went full board game and gave everyone a bunch of generic little tokens to use or whatever that would immediately solve the problem and improve readability for me
sleek trail
as noted unlimited was the default mode in ABS1 and i think part of why it was a weird game
a very cool game
twin mountain
absolutely
sleek trail
i think to de-emphasize it is probably a mistake
sleek trail
but im willing to hear out the design
twin mountain
if deemphasized then... it's just competing directly with dropfleet and stuff
and I dunno if it wins
sleek trail
to be fair its a blue book game
the audience is not precisely the same
i trust mike as a designer and i also think that the open playtest is the time to voice these feelings
twin mountain
makes sense yeah
ultimately I'm just not a wargamer and am basically never gonna buy minis and paint them and put them on a table so I think big picture I'm never gonna be his core audience. I'll leave it to the people who are really into the entire holistic vision of ABS to playtest it with him and they can all figure out what the game is gonna look like when the dust settles
and if that's something I like I'll join in after
sleek trail
hopefully it will stay neat
twin mountain
native portal
to be fair its a blue book game
what does this mean, out of curiousity
tawny sandal
I know Osprey books are talked about that way, dunno if this is published by them though
I don’t think I’ve actually played anything published by them (except Bolt Action), but they have a lot of historical and some sci fi/fantasy rule books
sudden halo
Osprey puts out a whole bunch of indie games, a lot of them being minis agnostic and pretty expirimental.
So they're not really targeting your average wargamer that wants to find a game and a group and stick with it.
tawny sandal
Yeah from what I’ve seen they’re for a group who wants to find Their Perfect Napoleonic (or at least try other ones)
Or Roman Empire, or English Civil War, or a bunch of niche historical stuff
sand cloak
Or do Stalker
Or do either fleet or star fighter battles
Or weird war I
or post-apocalyptic sci-fi warbands that can decide to either kill each other or kill the eldritch abomination in the middle of the board.
sudden halo
I will too but
> **Limited Mode:** You pre-build your lists, but deploy them dyn...
I could see the limited being fun if it's more like build you deck, you have unlimited quantities of these units but only these. Or even build your deck, you can only deploy one of each "slot" at a time but you can take on debt to deploy them or replace them.
Both of which are kind of Warcaster feeling.
But if it's just build your list it definitely removes what makes ABS its own thing. If I wanted a strait up space wargame I haven't found anything that does it better than Full Thrust and that's 35 years old.
twin mountain
don't think that's how rotvarlden worked
it's just "you start with some of your units ain play and then bring in the rest from your reserves over the game"
sudden halo
Yeah, that doesn't bode well. Though it also doesn't match the fluff in the paragraph above it?
Seemingly endless hordes doesn't sound like what's described in the next bit.
hollow crypt
that's true but I guess very predictably-winged take: I'm not that interested in...
Honestly I would kill for a wargame that just uses little cardboard tokens
Some small corner of my brain is always thinking about my hex-and-chit listbuilder
echo marten
...for some reason I got the mental image of a wargame about carriers. Where you have like 1 ship and then everything else is just 'Here are tokens for your various plane sorts. If they get driven out of the fight, launch more'.
echo marten
Also valid.
hollow crypt
My ultimate dream is a game where I can use one of those token pushers you see generals have in movies
echo marten
...dammit, now I'm brainstorming. Basicly set up the various carriers as your 'faction' with some standardized 'Fighter', 'Bomber' tokens and a few special rules per carrier/maybe a special weird plane option for each of them. Bombers are good at moving towards victory as they hurt the enemy carrier good, fighters hurt bombers but don't fight the carrier well etc.
ocean holly
Honestly I would kill for a wargame that just uses little cardboard tokens
I'm working on one!
echo marten
I think I'd likely have the plane tokens marked with a 'front', just so they Have To Keep Moving each turn/turning isn't instant...dammit...I have Ponderings.
compact leaf
...dammit, now I'm brainstorming. Basicly set up the various carriers *as* your ...
Mmm..
What would adding AACs to the mix do for the brainstorm?
echo marten
Airborne Aircraft Carriers? Or am I mixing up acronyms.
compact leaf
Airborne Aircraft Carriers? Or am I mixing up acronyms.
Nah, I messed up my acronym actually.
It's actually AAS
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amphibious_assault_ship
If you wanted ground combat
echo marten
Also a valid option.
compact leaf
You could do something like the carrier in carrier command too, I suppose
It's a hybrid of both
echo marten
oh?
compact leaf
Instead of just helis, it also has a main cannon, cruise missiles, and can launch planes. On top of the helis and amphibious vehicles an AAS would already get
echo marten
That's fun.
compact leaf
If you wanted different carriers, maybe having different amounts/types of craft slots would be something to consider
sudden halo
There's a new osprey carrier game that's pretty cool.
It's basically played with poker chips, so it is very token friendly.
compact leaf
You're also 100% obliged to add the Alicorn to the carrier game/s
echo marten
If you wanted different carriers, maybe having different amounts/types of craft ...
Yeah, I was pondering slots and also some bonuses for various types like:
Alien Mothership:
UFOs: Your planes may choose not to move when activated.
Amusing!
trail fulcrum
I keep wanting to do Warioware hex and chit
Hex and chit wargame built around dexterity games for resolution
trail fulcrum
It issss
ocean holly
Yeah, I was pondering slots and also some bonuses for various types like:
```
Al...
Ooooh, I likey
Possibly have that as a modifier on certain craft rather than the ship?
trail fulcrum
That's evil, maybe
Imagine combat being a game of marbles
Supply lines are string
You have to run across your hexes
compact leaf
Possibly have that as a modifier on certain craft rather than the ship?
Yeah.
Just make a hover keyword
echo marten
I was thinking, though it's just pondering right now that by default all Fighters and Bombers use the same stats/mechanics so you just need 2 colours worth of tokens (One for each player) and a given carrier might have a bonus of some sort.
ocean holly
And then ships have guns, lifts, and storage slots, as well as lists of selectable craft
trail fulcrum
Support is a stacking game
echo marten
...I could see a ship that has a really good bonus to its planes but has a criminally low number of lifts.
ocean holly
Also, feel free to ignore me, I'm prone to overcomplicate
echo marten
So it has to play 'small numbers of elite planes'
ocean holly
Warper
It can deploy one craft a round, anywhere on the map
I'm envisioning a normal aircraft carrier, with a Stargate at the end of the flight deck
twin mountain
Honestly I would kill for a wargame that just uses little cardboard tokens
tron i'm absolutely working on a tts prototype for my dumb wargame idea and yeah tbh it's just gonna be little zero-k or homeworld style tokens
like fuck it. i'm gonna do what I like. i like clear 2D graphics and chess like abstract icons actually
I am really not interested in 3D sculpted models of whatever. it also makes scale hard
like you can't really do a bvr fight or a multi kilometer map with minis without doing some amazing space compression for the minis
dropfleet comes to mind and its bumping rules
hollow crypt
Yeah dropfleet’s scale feels very odd at times
It’s also just really not easily legible
I do get that the modelling is a core part of the hobby for a lot people but I also personally think it gets in the way of gameplay rather significantly in some cases
twin mountain
I do get that the modelling is a core part of the hobby for a lot people but I ...
that's how I feel too
it's very much, like, a crafts thing? it's a crafts hobby welded onto a gaming hobby
also there's a weird grey area in between that's technically mechanics but it's entirely in service of the diorama stuff and I also consider that kinda crafts contagion. coherency rules are the big one to me
at this point we're all so mechanically tired of coherency stuff that most games are like
- nominate a single model to be the actual unit
- all movement and measurement from that guy
- after you move that guy, just like. just move everyone else so they are around looking cool.
- oh shit you all got separated? uh. that shouldn't happen. you have to get back together asap. how did you even pull this off?
my hot take is that coherency rules are to wargames what grappling rules are to rpgs
I kinda just look at them and go "you guys should've just had a single object for this unit"
sand sonnet
Which is how smaller scale model wargames handle things a lot of the time.
It's only when you're looking at the 28mm stuff you start getting coherency rules for anything that's not rank and flank style.
The visual appeal of models and terrain on the board is important to me, paper chit wargames are still enjoyable but feel like a different experience to me.
It is a craft hobby welded on, but I think it adds something unique and enjoyable to the experience if not the pure game of it.
twin mountain
this is for sure a common tension between like, old fans of a genre that had a lot of different goals blended together vs new fans that are looking for something specific
I get it
diorama stuff is to wargames what combos are to old fighting game vets
@hollow crypt shoutout to godtear for like. fully dropping all space stuff in a way I actually really liked. it's maybe the main reason I keep wanting to go back to it and play it. I wanna maybe introduce it to @distant roost too
aristeia and ember: obsidian protocol have grid movement but still like, line of sight management?
godtear is 100% grid movement 100% grid range that's it. no los. it's just final fantasy tactics stuff. it even has big squads of units with 0 coherency limitations
your squad of 4 little guys can be 1 guy each on each corner of the map
the game does not care
and splitting up can be really useful
sand sonnet
Shatterpoint does the splitting up thing without the grid.
hollow crypt
<@621795822282997821> shoutout to godtear for like. fully dropping all space stu...
I still need to play that sometime
sand sonnet
A Unit has a shared activation, but you can have multiple Characters in a unit and they can just go wherever.
sand sonnet
Shatterpoint is skirmish scale so all the units are unique.
The 501st and 212th are both clone trooper units, but the models are different and have slightly different equipment.
twin mountain
I still need to play that sometime
i'ev also considered bullying you for more ironwood
ironwood. the game none of my friends will play with me anymore
sand sonnet
Again I think you should give the Shatterpoint rules a read just to see what ideas it gives you.
twin mountain
Again I think you should give the Shatterpoint rules a read just to see what ide...
I might
so many cool little games with little systems I love
low key wondering if I can just steal the battlecrest system wholesale for wargame units
sand sonnet
Great artists steal. 
distant roost
<@621795822282997821> shoutout to godtear for like. fully dropping all space stu...
Godtear's got the TTS support right? Or is it a dedicated client
left onyx
diorama stuff is to wargames what combos are to old fighting game vets
I think the funniest diorama stuff is like... realistic scale rank and file historicals where you have dozens of models the size of a grain of rice on a single base and when you're painting you're just picking hat color, jacket color, pants color. It's sorta neat in its own way but also funny
distant roost
Bless Steam for making mod installation easy and cutting down on the amount of physical dice I gotta throw around
umbral prawn
I do get that the modelling is a core part of the hobby for a lot people but I ...
I am also in it for the gameplay, which is one reason I dropped 40k
distant roost
I got like 54 tiny d6s I scored from a Napoleonic historical wargame kinda deal and I sure am glad they all fit nicely in one container
umbral prawn
That little probability reference card is genius
twin mountain
here, @queen epoch and I actually played some godtear, I have some screenshots...
hollow crypt
i'ev also considered bullying you for more ironwood
I could maybe find time to lose at ironwood, I’m pretty free for the next week and change, I am just super busy afterwards (school finally starting, and in a whole-ass different country this time)
hollow crypt
wales, I'm doing a year abroad
twin mountain
Oooh
orchid tulip
Yeees, join us on the right side of the pond
hollow crypt
i'll admit having now been to ireland I wish I'd applied for my exchange there, but I am still very excited. My bones desire to live by the sea
orchid tulip
Well, Wales has sea on at least 2 fronts
fallen rune
I think the best thing about coherency requiring units is how they give the defender a say in which models are removed
But that’s not something every game needs it’s just interesting texture
twin mountain
I think the best thing about coherency requiring units is how they give the defe...
which is a problem auto solved by having the unit just be one single token
fallen rune
That gives the attacker full control doesn’t it?
twin mountain
full control of... what? it's an hp bar then
fallen rune
Of what game piece they remove
twin mountain
I'm talking about replacing 10 marines in a coherency blob with one leader you do all attack measurements to and from with a single token that has 10 hit points
they're just removing points then
fallen rune
What I mean is stuff which crops up in 40K every so often like taking casualties on the front to make it harder to charge that unit into melee or weird stuff like evading range with damage order (though that one is dubious sportsmanship)
twin mountain
oh. well. I think you kinda said it yourself: dubious sportsmanship right?
how much is that even intended gameplay
fallen rune
Basically the defender choosing which pieces of the unit blob disappear to change it’s shape
twin mountain
if it's intended high level gameplay then... sure
fallen rune
It was very much legal just kinda mean
Stuff like taking heavy weapons casualties on the front rank so small arms are out of range
twin mountain
I'm not sure what that's supposed to meaningfully represent in the story the diorama is telling. it's sorta arcadey game mechanics and if people are really invested in that at that point that's fair I guess
but if I like run up into melee and then kill the guys I am in melee with so I am technically no longer in melee
then I'm very much playing a video game at that point
might as well last hit and deny
fallen rune
I think the narrative aspect is kind of representing the uncertainty of battle so it’s not like “shoot these 3 exact guys” it’s “shoot that group” and then some of them get shot but you don’t choose exactly who
twin mountain
except the defenders are totally choosing exactly who
so the next squad can't shoot them somehow
fallen rune
but if I like run up into melee and then kill the guys I am in melee with so I a...
It’s more like, as an example you’re planning to charge into melee with a unit which is idk, 8 inches away (relatively easy charge), but you snap off some shots first and the other player has the nearest models die so now that unit is 10” away and a relatively hard charge target
fallen rune
except the defenders are totally choosing exactly who
Yeah it’s like some sort of abstract representation of Murphy there
twin mountain
right yeah - that kinda doesn't make sense to me in the cinematic I'm trying to tell in my head
it's very much like. fire emblem style "aha your attack range is exactly move 5 spaces + attack adjacent so I shall stand exactly 7 spaces away" stuff
which is also just video game stuff to me
and don't get me wrong I'm totally making a chess game like right now
I appreciate clarity and quantized space and extremely tight little geometric puzzles
but it's very much not an experience that gets me immersed in the story of it all
which is I thiiink what diorama squads are supposed to be trying to do for me
fallen rune
I think the idea with them is to make it kind of “fuzzy” on the board who has what exactly - like the primary purpose of “defender chooses casualties” is so that special stuff like fancy weapons don’t die first with the narrative being that even if the guy with the machine gun got shot someone else can pick it up (I think 4e 40k actually uses that example almost exactly) but it’s also weird since this also means that like unit leaders usually live the longest and sometimes snipers can choose their casualties and etc
I think it’s interesting texture but I also tend to prefer games without it
twin mountain
nods
fallen rune
I’ve been getting real into Kill Team lately and it’s all just single models which move as they please
twin mountain
as an interesting reference counterpoint: godtear just has attackers choosing casualties. there's actually no unit logic at all for picking targets
you just have single target attacks that take out one model or like, aoe attacks that take out a bunch of models
and the attacker chooses all targets etc
umbral prawn
if it's intended high level gameplay then... sure
(It's 40k, the intended gameplay is to sell more models)
twin mountain
(ah, you're right)
tepid steeple
I mean I think the fact of like 'these 3 guys didnt make it to cover' so thats the exact amount that dies while exposed thats not video gamey
twin mountain
I mean I think the fact of like 'these 3 guys didnt make it to cover' so thats t...
no but in practice it's more like "oh 3 guys didn't make it to cover, by which I mean these 2 guys in range of your next ranged attack, and 1 guy in the back of my squad so I'm still as close as possible to you"
that's kinda how it ends up working
tepid steeple
And really the whole models removal thing is just a small consequence of the idea that a larger squad controls a larger amount of space, which degrades as you lose guys
twin mountain
like you're massaging your unit deliberately for optimal striking power and minimum exposed surfaces to future attacks
tepid steeple
Which you can replace with abstract things of different sizes or like different engagement ranges etc
twin mountain
And really the whole models removal thing is just a small consequence of the ide...
... is that even true? isn't it all leader based these days?
twin mountain
like there's often just one guy in the squad doing measurements
tepid steeple
And even in those two games its not just leader to leader
You have like individual line of sight checking
And for engaging its like you have to put the bulk of your squad 'somewhere' so even if you face that away from the enemy it still has implications from other angles
twin mountain
the last coherency game I seriously invested in was dropfleet and your whole fleet has facing
so it kinda doesn't have implications from other angles really
the guy in front of the direction all your ships are facing is kinda just the guy
tepid steeple
Idr legion that well but in warcrow the space between squad members blocks line of sight too so its very much like squad size is how big a blob you can put in between your squishies and the enemy
twin mountain
isn't it always 2 strides?
isn't this just The Blob Size?
for warcrow?
you can't even spread out
fallen rune
Dropfleet coherency seemed like it was purely to like, simplify how multi-ship units activated to me
twin mountain
warcrow even has like, forced troop leader stuff
so there's like one officer and everyone is hard locked to a 2 stride circle around them
everyone is just like... a tiny starcraft 2 blob
you can't cover anybody with more people or not, not really
tepid steeple
Though the more models you have the more youre able to make a circle
twin mountain
I guessss?
tepid steeple
Like a 1 model unit blocks nothing
twin mountain
I'll admit this feels super abstract to me
tepid steeple
A 2 model blocks only one 2 stride space
You need 3 to make a line, and then more gives you more angles
Which like 5 is the max for warcrow so
fallen rune
I think a lot “casualty management” stuff feels super abstract yeah
It’s one of the spots where wargame “logic” breaks down
Focusing on the “rules to model war” aspect of it more than the “game design” aspect of it
umbral prawn
IMO unit coherency is a lot of mechanical fiddling for not a lot of gain in gameplay depth.
It was very game-able in the versions of 40k I played
sudden halo
like you can't really do a bvr fight or a multi kilometer map with minis without...
Scale really is the enemy of minis. I like minis a lot but it drives me up the wall as both a designer and a player.
sudden halo
I kinda just look at them and go "you guys should've just had a single object fo...
This so much. If you have a need for coherency rules you should have made your miniatures in a smaller scale and multi-based them.
fallen rune
Scale really is the enemy of minis. I like minis a lot but it drives me up the w...
I think this is a big part of why wargames more recent than WW2 are so rare
sudden halo
Yeah, a 6 foot table at 1/300(6mm) is about 400 meters, which is doctrine rifle engagement range. Even at 1/1000 ground scale tanks can easily engage as the table is 1-1.5 km.
Doing a coherent ground scale even with a believable level of compression is really difficult.
fallen rune
And it’s a lot more comfortable for napoleonics at 6mm scale
sudden halo
Warcrow's coherency feels a little silly. Definitely feels like there's a little bit of push-pull in the design between wanting a small gang fight and wanting to represent the big armies that these nations have. Ultimately I don't mind because between it and the way you attach characters it compresses activations to the level where you can play quickly, but it does feel weird that the whole unit of 4-5 guys attacks once. Mechanically it's fine but it definitely differs from the expectation that the models set.
tepid steeple
I think its probably been mentioned but its also just like
Cart before the horse
But in a way that makes sense for what ppl are looking for
But like a game isnt necessarily designed just for what its like as a game
Which is like yeah ofc that means someone who cares the most about having a good game and has the experience to know what that is
Those compromises make it less suitable
Like you can say "the point of warhammer is to make you buy unreasonable amounts of minis" but like that amount of minis in that scale is the end and not the means for the target audience
Ppl do this even when they dont have a game to play
umbral prawn
My point was that 40k the game is a secondary concern to 40k the hobby
tepid steeple
Yeah
umbral prawn
So assigning intentionality to the mechanics is giving GW too much credit
tepid steeple
But like my point is more that like
fallen rune
Yeah 40k mostly exists as a thing to do with your tuoys
tepid steeple
Not that its not true but that its not necessarily pejorative
umbral prawn
Well, I meant it in a pejorative way
fallen rune
Though I think from a game design perspective 40k is mostly about herding the large throng of sacred cows into a new pen every few years
tepid steeple
Im aware
fallen rune
There’s so many legacy systems kicking around in the game
umbral prawn
They did get rid of templates!
fallen rune
Bad! I grognard like templates
umbral prawn
I played 40k with the fucking scatter die
fallen rune
Same
sudden halo
40k would be pretty well served to be 15mm, it would make the presence of all the big ass cool toys that lots of people like make any sense.
fallen rune
I missed the ammo dice era though
umbral prawn
I missed the ammo dice era though
The what
sudden halo
It is interesting to me that most of the innovation at GW seemed to happen as a lot of their founders and early designers wanted to move past their sacred cows, and then they all left.
tepid steeple
My point is kinda like. It doesnt serve when the whole job of the game is to play with the models
Even if that makes it a worse game
sudden halo
You still get some cool things in specialist games, but otherwise it's about meeting expectations, rather than making great games.
fallen rune
The *what*
Some weapons rolled this fucked up d6 to determine hit count
The lightning bolt indicates a jam
sudden halo
My experience with big 40k is that it's an exercise where two people stand around and argue about their factions "my dad can beat up your dad" style for 2+ hours while occasionally rolling dice (I haven't played since 4th edition so this is just the across the room take)
tepid steeple
Or multiple dice
fallen rune
Some weapons rolled this fucked up d6 to determine hit count
You rolled to hit and then rolled a bunch of them for how many hits that was
And if you rolled enough jams some weapons could explode
(That’s the original gets hot!)
umbral prawn
Amazing that Gets Hot represented a significant improvement in mechanics
twin mountain
This so much. If you have a need for coherency rules you should have made your m...
I was for sure thinking about... what you called them. multi basing? you get a big rectangle and put dudes on it
it's definitely felt like an elegant solution to that push pull between wanting like 1 Thingy for rules but also a diorama for pictures
orchid tulip
I missed the ammo dice era though
So there was a precedent for the ammo die in Necromunda17/18?
fallen rune
Yep, it lived on longer in a lot of specialist games
tepid steeple
I think strictly speaking it was just never removed in necromunda yeah
But the mental stats are the same
sudden halo
I was for sure thinking about... what you called them. multi basing? you get a b...
I don't know if that's an official term. Growing up you that was how it was assumed and it was notable if you had miniatures individually based, but my early exposure to miniatures was all based on my dads experience which was the British historical games scene or people who worked at museums and history departments in New Orleans.
So between that and primarily being into mechs and spaceships my perceptions of scale and distance in tabletop games is quite a bit different than what is typical.
When I was testing my space fleet mass battle game I made counters for it and I really liked how it looked.
I still used measure and move because I like it for rank and flank but I have been thinking a lot about grids and things.
And generally all in one box type wargaming. Halo Flashpoint is really quite lovely due to having a grid and also having the complete experience in one box.
twin mountain
I still used measure and move because I like it for rank and flank but I have be...
I think my favorite scale is like. halfway between grids and bigass regions? like the way undaunted does it
undaunted is both a region map in the sense that you need to be in the -same space- as objectives to do stuff with them and many units can all coexist in the same space and do stuff with each other
but also it's secretly a low resolution hexgrid
so you can still do some meaningfully coherent simple ranged based stuff
range modifiers, units that can attack further than others, etc.
I like it a lot for like. sheer mechanical bang for rules overhead buck
sudden halo
undaunted looks quite good, its on the list for things i'd pick up if i was playing games even a quarter as much as i was thinking about them
sudden halo
these were my tokens for TTS, admirals were attachments to units, which were 3 identical tokens
so casualties could be represented, but more importantly so units could assume different formations and have different frontages
so you'd have more frontage in a line, and thus more stands able to shoot, but in column you had support bonuses and could reroll move orders if they failed
i was really happy with the playtest, but it definitely showed me how much work i needed to put in to make it an a game i'd be proud of.
hollow crypt
Well, Wales has sea on at least 2 fronts
it does! and I'm living on one of them (I'm headed cardiff ways)
hollow crypt
i would kill to play 2200 with my online friends
please 🙏 I saw it in the store in the city today and it taunted me
why is it 90 dollars
trail fulcrum
Every time I try to write a wargame my brain goes
Coherency goes to a bit unit leaders measure everything
Facing also needs to die without bases
Cureent low res diorama game thought is diorama table zones
Like building/ruin? 1 zone, street between em? 1 zone
twin mountain
Like building/ruin? 1 zone, street between em? 1 zone
This is fine as long as you're willing to accept that some players like me will just pile minis into the relative areas without caring about their positioning and maybe arrange them for ease of counting
Like, this is just what board gamers call "dudes on a map" games. It's a very good established game design
Like, a classic example would be War of the Ring
Lots of pretty minis
People even paint them
But they're just piled into regions
trail fulcrum
Zoned building areas wanna take advantage of it
twin mountain
And because it's regions we get to zoom waaay out and play strategy over entire continents
twin mountain
Zoned building areas wanna take advantage of it
Yeah 2200 absolutely takes advantage of this
Like, look at this map
It's secretly just a hexgrid
ocean holly
I want 2200 so bad
twin mountain
But it's reframed as construction zoning
twin mountain
I want 2200 so bad
We all do
ocean holly
Ah well
Stalingrad is great
Ugh
I need to work on my setting
I think I have all the base mechanics down
trail fulcrum
https://gugimages.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/09/27134339...
I mean like the current trend of having buildings with zone defining bases
trail fulcrum
Modern 40k has a thing where buildings kinda do true line of slight but if both parties are not in the building, there's a zone that's larger than the building itself drawn around it that is treated as an infinitely high LOS blocking terrain
That defines the building
So there's an entire ecosystem of building terrain made with this in mind
twin mountain
Interesting
Do you measure movement inside the zone?
Or are units just freely teleported inside
trail fulcrum
Do you measure movement inside the zone?
40k measures movements but I kinda want to build a game taking advantage of this existing infrastructure
To do zones
trail fulcrum
Piggyback on existing 'infrastructure'
twin mountain
Right right
trail fulcrum
Lol I'm still struggling to define a zone
And how they're built lol
Do i give up and tell people please dont gerrymander
ocean holly
You mentioned them
trail fulcrum
Hahahaa
ocean holly
And I'm going more boardgamey anyway
trail fulcrum
Really wanna give players string and an official map
ocean holly
I'm wondering if I do official printed map chunks, that players draft
trail fulcrum
Oh? Mapmaking is a game phase?
trail fulcrum
I kinda want to not trust players and design game maps for them lol
ocean holly
Anyway, I'm thinking a battalion level game, so terrain is more...... vibesy, for want of a better word
trail fulcrum
Loose enough design to allow for customisation
trail fulcrum
Anyway, I'm thinking a battalion level game, so terrain is more...... vibesy, fo...
Patch of woods level vibes?
hollow crypt
Like, a classic example would be War of the Ring
God I wish war of the ring had cardboard tokens lol
The minis are so clunky
twin mountain
God I wish war of the ring had cardboard tokens lol
Agreed, was just thinking of the most diorama version of this I could remember
Obviously the ironwood solution is just better and sexier
Just gimme little tokens
Or like. Look at battalion
hollow crypt
I think TI might be the most egregious "why does this have plastic" game
twin mountain
I was JUST thinking that lmao
How you need to buy additional standees
Just to fit all the dumb minis
hollow crypt
Is that what you're supposed to do
hollow crypt
do you mean clear plastic things to make them fly or as a storage solution?
twin mountain
The former
Anyway - I think super cheap wargame chits have kinda just given gamers a bad idea as to what tokens can look like
twin mountain
https://www.meeplemountain.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/Battalion-4-990x743.jp...
I think battalion is an excellent example of like
Tokens that look very pretty and stack very legibly
They are even shaped to sorta be pushed around like little legions
This is The Shit imo
hollow crypt
https://www.etsy.com/ca/listing/593047242/sets-of-93mm-fleet-stands-for-twilight
wait to what end is this for
is it just to give a second hex of space??
this feels overcomplicated
twin mountain
For literally fitting multiple fleets and moving fleets between hexes
Yes
You can just pick up the whole stand
You can stack multiple even on the same hex
This has been the solution for like a decade
hollow crypt
now I wanna make snazzy little cardboard tokens for the actual ships
ocean holly
TI4 has an insanely good TTS mod, which works out well
hollow crypt
because honestly I adore the infantry and fighter tokens
ocean holly
I think TI might be the most egregious "why does this have plastic" game
Two words:
Table Presence
hollow crypt
aren't they just 1s and... 3s
actually why is it 3
that's not a good number for the game
trail fulcrum
that's not a good number for the game
Primes?
Because like everything else you can use a mix of different numbers
twin mountain
aren't they just 1s and... 3s
Yes but you'll note those are extra number tokens you have to attach to a single little mini
Same idea
trail fulcrum
So like 1, 2, new token for 3
hollow crypt
uh
trail fulcrum
Wait hmmm
hollow crypt
wait are you supposed to do that
ocean holly
Yeah
twin mountain
Like how do you represent 10 vs 10 in TI
trail fulcrum
2, 3
hollow crypt
I thought the whole point was you could use the tokens standalone
ocean holly
Same deal as axis and allies
trail fulcrum
Lol
twin mountain
Tron there's one token for every faction
There are six players
They have the same token
hollow crypt
uh
oh right yeah
huh
yknow. that's actually never come up
you're so right lol
ocean holly
Also you can't legally garrison more planets than the number of infantry you have
twin mountain
you're so right lol
I'm shocked you never noticed
hollow crypt
see here I was under the impression infantry aren't component limited
but they are
but they aren't
that's so fucking dumb
twin mountain
But yeah if you have 10 vs 10
You need to put like
One blue flag mini down
And one red flag mini down
hollow crypt
I'm going to make a 90$ third party TI product that makes cardboard ships, infantry, and fighters for every faction
twin mountain
But that's what actual ground war looks like
It's classic x5 Eurogame multiplier token shit
hollow crypt
I think we've maybe had 2 meaningful ground combats in our 5-6 games
ocean holly
It works
hollow crypt
I don't even think TIs does because those tokens aren't legible from the side
most versions of axis and allies at least (try) to effectively colour code them
ocean holly
Oh, yeah, they be the same size, right?
hollow crypt
I think they might be different sizes but that's still not exactly legible
though the axis and allies aren't either because there's not a super clear line between the tokens
twin mountain
As a really funny tangent
Hey guys anyone into wroth
Funniest solution to all of this
It's dice
Everything's dice
hollow crypt
yeah dice would be clean
trail fulcrum
Return to tradition
ocean holly
Dice are love, dice are life, dice ar-
Table gets knocked slightly
echo marten
...I am pondering a thing for a game. The basic idea is 'Two carriers fighting each other'.
Basicly: Give it two maps. Each one of them is one of the carriers. Then you deploy tokens to either map (Having them back for defence or out for attack). So each player just needs a playmat (Which is both your faction and one of the maps) and a set of coloured tokens.
hollow crypt
Two words:
Table Presence
just to bounce back to this, the art and, for lack of a more precise word I know, UI design for TI looks so much better than the plastic minis
ocean holly
Oooh, I likey
hollow crypt
I don't actually want to look at coloured plastic blob #5, I want to look at the awesome planets
and clean sci-fi tokens
ocean holly
But from across the room?
hollow crypt
I'm not getting TI advertised to me while I'm playing TI
twin mountain
I agree Tron
twin mountain
But from across the room?
Even across the room
hollow crypt
I'm already bought in, it doesn't need to convince me it's cool
ocean holly
Fair
twin mountain
I see a massive table with terrain and it's like. I'm immediately turned off. It feels like a car showroom
twin mountain
https://beastiegeeks.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/07/IMG_4797-scaled.jpg
I see a board like this ^
And I'm drawn in
ocean holly
I don't mind the minis, but mostly because I sorta struggle to see a better solution
twin mountain
I do just gravitate to stuff like that in cons
It's clearly like a game
Stuff is happening
Look at the little units
They have numbers on them ooh
echo marten
My thoughts (As I mentioned yesterday) is basicly to have 3 types of tokens:
-Fighter
-Bomber
-Unique
Fighter and Bomber are exactly the same for each faction (Though may be modified by your choice of carrier if it's got special rules related to them) with Unique being 'This is the Main Special Trick for your carrier/faction'.
By keeping them to broad categories you don't need tokens per faction as you can just go 'I'm the red player, that's my red unique-class plane'.
ocean holly
This is insane table presence to me
And to me
hollow crypt
but yeah voidfall is super slick
ocean holly
Voidfall is peak
twin mountain
I see a diorama and I think "oh it's a game I spend hours painting and then it's like 1d20 + modifier vs AC and that's probably the whole game"
I see a billion cards and the game is just punching me in the face
twin mountain
The last time I ran into this was with Conquest laok
Like
Look at this
If I see this in a convention or lgs
It's so clearly fake
I'm assuming the mechanics probably suck
Do the units even have unit cards
ocean holly
You'll love my minis game idea, then, Wimged
twin mountain
This is the Hot Milfs In Your Area of gaming
hollow crypt
yeah I mean, how did that big guy end up at the wall, where are those guys on the right going
twin mountain
Quote me on that
ocean holly
It's entirely punch board units
hollow crypt
this is clearly trying to sell me on vast quanties of plastic
twin mountain
It's entirely punch board units
Fount. You're gonna wanna sit down for this
You just invented hex and chit wargames
From the 60s
Just try to breathe, I know
We'll get through this together
left onyx
Yeah those exist too
ocean holly
None with great art, though
twin mountain
You're absolutely right
I definitely think battalion is pushing the space
Tokens that don't look like garbage would be cool actually
hollow crypt
warchest ❤️
ocean holly
I'm thinking like 2" circles for a platoon
left onyx
Actually I know this is hex-and-chit and not free-measure, but shout out to the original Ogre mini
hollow crypt
or maybe not warchest I don't recall if that's its name
twin mountain
Warchest!!!!
ocean holly
War Chest is great
ocean holly
Tactility in gaming, my beloved
twin mountain
wait no I didn't mean warchest I 100% meant bloodstone
Tron if you wanna play a game that looks like bloodstoones but is actually good - sekigahara
hollow crypt
holy shit nodes
ocean holly
Warning, though, it's wood, not acrylic
twin mountain
It's even got hidden information
You can't see enemy unit composition
Just how big they are
hollow crypt
oh my god that's brilliant
ocean holly
Still awesome tactility, just a different mouthfeel
twin mountain
It's so so so fucking sexy
hollow crypt
that's so sick
twin mountain
It's SO sick
hollow crypt
80$ 
I'm remembering why I acquiese to using TTS so often lol
ocean holly
GMT makes some very slick wargames
left onyx
You can't see enemy unit composition
Ah the Stratego model
hollow crypt
dude I fucking love stratego
I had this weird fantasy version that my dad bought when I was a wee lad
I think that's why I'm like this
ocean holly
I like the concept of stratego more than the game
left onyx
Stratego I think has some issues with the whole bigger number > smaller number focus, but the hidden info part is very cool
twin mountain
Make your own
hollow crypt
Stratego I think has some issues with the whole bigger number > smaller number f...
what if the big number was A DRAGON
ocean holly
Make your own
Im working on it, ok?
left onyx
(Or in some editions, smallest number wins. It varied)
hollow crypt
this game is not good, but it is fun
twin mountain
Yeah nobody likes actually playing actual stratego. But hidden information fucks
hollow crypt
it also has like, scouting units
twin mountain
I'm working on a strike trigger wargame right now
hollow crypt
it's actually really trying something
twin mountain
So public units with hidden dice on them
ocean holly
Hear me out
D6, with a chit for unit type on top
So you can see 4 unit numbers it isn't
hollow crypt
I'm working on a strike trigger wargame right now
I'm so sorry ash which one is strike trigger
is that the 3v3 moba one
left onyx
Yeah
twin mountain
Yes
hollow crypt
the mech one was... frame... lock? frame perfect?
left onyx
Frame perfect
twin mountain
I'm gonna grow up and give up on the 3v3 thing
hollow crypt
Okay cool I'm up to speed
twin mountain
Which was always cursed
hollow crypt
I appreciate that lol
twin mountain
And make it the proper 1v1 game it was supposed to be
hollow crypt
strike trigger was really cool
twin mountain
Thaanks
hollow crypt
but where am I going to find 5 other people to play it with me
ocean holly
Ugh, for my wargame, I have the bones, now I need the meat
left onyx
I'm trying to remember the name of the velocity/position phase space spaceship game
hollow crypt
I can't make 5 people's schedules line up for boring normal things
twin mountain
Manifold wire
twin mountain
I'm trying to remember the name of the velocity/position phase space spaceship g...
@umbral prawn making a real game out of it. Also @grizzled flint
Both directly inspired and actually going the distance
Huge shout outs
left onyx
Oh wow, that's hype
twin mountain
Yeah
Night sky falling and radioclad respectively
Two games from manifold wire's engine
ocean holly
That must feel great
left onyx
Oh! I heard Peri talk some about NSF, missed that it was based on MW
twin mountain
It does
😳
Got interviewed about it too
Like, by a university professor writing a book about people doing amazing dumb shit with math
Apparently phase space for games has literally never been done before
ocean holly
Yooo
ocean holly
Phase space?
umbral prawn
distant roost
Pokémon styled critter battler except it's ideas waging war on the philosophy of it
trail fulcrum
https://i0.wp.com/woehammer.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/screenshot_20220305-0...
Lol funniest part is it is fake
Conquest uses movement trays and square ranks and flanks
trail fulcrum
I'm trying to remember the name of the velocity/position phase space spaceship g...
Vector 3?
umbral prawn
Phase space?
A spacial representation of state. In this case, the vertical axis is position and horizontal is velocity
trail fulcrum
Oh my God digging up my project
hollow crypt
Ten ideas before breakfast
I have made two functional prototypes of two unrelated games in the last 7 days. this is too relatable
ocean holly
A spacial representation of state. In this case, the vertical axis is position a...
Oooh, ok
ocean holly
I have made two functional prototypes of two unrelated games in the last 7 days....
Further than me
trail fulcrum
Ohh
umbral prawn
You can't change position directly, you change your speed and then later, everyone moves according to their velocity
twin mountain
A spacial representation of state. In this case, the vertical axis is position a...
Excellent diagram
I love you
I invented the idea and wrote up a doc for it in like an hour as a hold my beer game design thing
But it's really good and I'm glad other people are pursuing it
I just have too many fucking ideas
ocean holly
Moooiod
umbral prawn
I demoed it at a con last weekend!
echo marten
You can't change position directly, you change your speed and then later, everyo...
Oh hey, that's similar to what I was pondering with the planes for that carrier game.
Step 1: Players take turns rotating planes and setting speed face down.
Step 2: Flip speed face up.
Step 3: You go back and forward with alternating activations activating your planes and having them take the movement you decided (And then getting to shoot or evade or such if you can at the end of a movement)
With by default, planes not able to go at no speed. They can't hover in place, they have to keep moving.
twin mountain
For info on radioclad - https://t.co/7NE35RRxHg
ocean holly
Oh hey, that's similar to what I was pondering with the planes for that carrier ...
If I may offer a suggestion?
echo marten
Go for it. Right now I am 100% in Pure Brainstorming Mode
ocean holly
Each token has a movement arc
Say, the forward 90°
On your turn, you move it to a point in that arc between the max and min speeds of the unit, then turn to face in any direction
twin mountain
Oh hey, that's similar to what I was pondering with the planes for that carrier ...
https://youtu.be/ONIWmlTtEJE oh look at me I'm so clumsy I dropped u:bob
echo marten
Oh, I guess this sorta idea has likely been done a few times. XD
ocean holly
Not as a head to head minis game
twin mountain
Oh, I guess this sorta idea has likely been done a few times. XD
Steal it
Steal it steal it steal it
Just do it
echo marten
Steal it
Hah. I'll certainly read over it. Right now my general pondering is that since the carriers are the maps too, I'd give each carrier some amount of 'weak points'. So it's not just 'drop bombs wherever', it's 'get bombers to the important areas'. XD
ocean holly
Oooh, ok
I'm liking this more and more, gimme a ping when you want to take it for a spin
echo marten
Hah. I'll need work to stop kicking my ass so hard before I could put real work into this. XD
ocean holly
Also, if this ever makes it to production
Double-sided tokens, one being Fighter/Unique, other being Bomber/Unique
echo marten
Makes sense.
ocean holly
Given fighters are only home, and bombers only away
Could have a funky carrier with 2 uniques, one for each map
echo marten
Oh no, fighters are also away. They fight enemy fighters to buy space for your bombers 😛
Bombers are floating victory points but they need the fighters to turn into those victory points.
Right now I only have one 'carrier' on the brain in terms of Special Tricks but I really want to try and get the Base Mechanics down before I try doing weird things.
ocean holly
Could have a funky carrier with 2 uniques, one for each map
This still works, though
echo marten
That one carrier trick being 'You have an Alien Mothership. Your fighters are foo fighters are thus allowed to nominate zero speed as they just Hover In Place'
So you can Juke Thing Out/Form Defensive walls
ocean holly
Yeah, that's cool
echo marten
But yeah, I'll look over undaunted and ponder some basic combat resolution stuff. I feel like with this much moving about and manuvering, you really don't want too much Dice Randomness.
twin mountain
tepid steeple
Song of the dormant arrived today. Built up everything and then played first misson of a cute campaign that comes with it
Got like interesting choose your own adventure elements where you can explore sections during the battle and stuff
It was a bit of a slow start remembering all the rules but its such a fun gameee
I hope they do a lot more narrative content for it too cause the campaign was quite fun so far
twin mountain
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wi8JarTMGWg ... @fallen rune @twin turret
fallen rune
Huh this is kinda neat
sleek trail
is a warhammer board game indie/alternative
not a snarky remark
just genuinely worth thinking about, i think, given how overshadowed they can be
modern snow
is a warhammer board game indie/alternative
I mean there is a Warhammer And Such thread 🤔
twin mountain
is a warhammer board game indie/alternative
damn I did low key forget that this wasn't just the wargaming thread
sleek trail
it does feel like a "wargaming general" thread sometimes but i do like it best when its highlighting non-warhammer games or games that otherwise wouldnt have a thread
fallen rune
My mental perception is that it’s kinda wargames-other-than-warhammer since it’s the 5e of the space
But the niche tie in games are kinda edge cases
Of the old stuff which is largely unsupported maybe
Is Mordheim indie now?
modern snow
damn I did low key forget that this wasn't just the wargaming thread
I mean when the mood is "There's Warhammer and then there's Everything Else™" I get it
modern snow
Is Mordheim indie now?
It's pretty close to Open-Source abandonware at this point
sudden halo
Yeah, GW Specialist Games, especially the out of print ones probably split the difference.
I expect more people in this thread would be actually interested in playing them, though the Warhammer thread would probably be more interested in the models themselves
native portal
Yeah I'm here for r u l e s
hollow slate
Oh cool, I finally know where to post about GorkaMorka
(I do have GorkaMorka books, but not models)
modern snow
[self-shill time] the cover art for the new Mobile Arms rulebook is looking mighty fine
sand sonnet
Saw that in my email earlier and my hype intensified. When can I give you money on Gamefound?
tawny sandal
Is Mordheim indie now?
In the same way Classic Necromunda is
echo marten
I do kinda wish there was a decent rebuild of Mordheim that isn't Coreheim. I have serious issues with Coreheim.
modern snow
Saw that in my email earlier and my hype intensified. When can I give you money ...
in less than two weeks! soft date is the 16th but we haven't said that formally because we're still working on a few things
twin mountain
[self-shill time] the cover art for the new Mobile Arms rulebook is looking _mig...
yoooooooooooo
modern snow
yoooooooooooo
yyyyoooooOOOOOO
twin mountain
sleek trail
Congrats!
dark kindle
Been digging into Trench Crusade after some friends mentioned it
Pretty cool! Spent a little while slapping a trench ghosts list together
tawny sandal
I’m interested in making a sultanate alchemist list at some point
full bolt
Alchemists rock
Back when I played court of the seven headed destroyer and Iron Sultanate
I was looking into heretic legions but I dropped the system
compact leaf
Have acquired Song of the Dormant
Will let y'all know if that book contains the rules updates
sand sonnet
Classic CB move though
I need to bug folks locally for a demo now that the knights are out
compact leaf
Hopefully they'll get a unified PDF out soon.
They are working on one, I've confirmed that for sure
No ETA on it yet though
I'm under the assumption it'll be when the first WTS season drops
compact leaf
...which should be the end of this month, ish
twin mountain
@maiden ermine @fast glade @twin turret @toxic trench ember finally has a non-spreadsheet list builder
wouldn't mind poking at this with you guys
distant roost
This is Ember: Obsidian Protocol?
orchid tulip
Ye
Does this look fine?
┣┳ New Mech[M.A.P：242分]
┃┣ torso：RT-15B Lava Assault Core
┃┣ 躯干：RL-03D Swift Steed High-mobility Chassis
┃┣ 左臂：L-320 SMMG + Type 55 Shield + CC-6 Cleaver
┃┣ 右臂：AC-161 SMG
┃┣ 背包：SH-15 Field Repair System
┃┗ 驾驶员： Misty
┣┳ New Mech[M.A.P：287分]
┃┣ torso：RT-15C Glacier Assault Core
┃┣ 躯干：RL-03D Swift Steed High-mobility Chassis
┃┣ 左臂：Type 62 Buckler + CC-20 Sabre (L)
┃┣ 右臂：AH-21 Pistol + CC-50 Pile Bunker (R) (D)
┃┣ 背包：TB-600 Jetpack
┃┗ 驾驶员：Anser
┣┳ New Mech[M.A.P：225分]
┃┣ torso：RT-15/EC Aurora ECM Core
┃┣ 躯干：RL-06MS Support Chassis
┃┣ 左臂：Type 55 Shield + MES Beacon Launcher
┃┣ 右臂：AC-35 Sniper Rifle
┃┣ 背包：MUD-1 Muck ECM Backpack
┃┗ 驾驶员：KeyHole
┗┳ 无人机[无人机：117分]
┗ 无人机：DTG-30M Hyena MG Type
┗ 无人机：DTG-30M Hyena MG Type
┗ 无人机：DTG-30S Hyena Missile Type
twin mountain
This is Ember: Obsidian Protocol?
it is yeah
clem, would love to play with you sometime and show off ember and/or godtear
they're both quantized space grid games
the stuff we love
distant roost
it is yeah
I'm glad it finally got going, I think folks were worried about kickstarter hell for a while
twin mountain
@latent rover if you wanna get into ember now is an okay time
it's pretty playable on tts now
it's still physically a mess but that's not so important to me
distant roost
clem, would love to play with you sometime and show off ember and/or godtear
Sure, I'm good for it - any online resources besides the builder to skim or is the manual in TTS?
twin mountain
I can teach you in tts
I might as well teach a bunch of people
it's good energy for lancer peeps
umbral prawn
I might be down if I can find some time
orchid tulip
If times line up I'd like to join as well
distant roost
Oh good, this downloads good on mobile so I can browse on the go
Yeah I'm good any day besides Thursdays (that's Lancer night) after <t:1757369408:t> for TTS scrums
modern snow
<@102124257290518528> <@192228124610658304> <@152395537189044224> <@203733729577...
this is something similar to what I have in mind for the eventual MA builder
sand sonnet
I'd be interested in seeing how this works.
twin mountain
I might stream it later today then
would be happy to demo it for everyone
I was talking about it in tabletop discussion
how the dice tell cool little stories
orchid tulip
Image overview of my squad from earlier
stable pelican
web warriors be hitting HARD
compact leaf
Oh my god are we doing ember here now??
orchid tulip
It seems so
compact leaf
Hmmm
compact leaf
Image overview of my squad from earlier
If you were to change anything, I'd find a spot to include an HMG to take down dodge tanks?
orchid tulip
Is the 2 HMG drones not enough?
compact leaf
Is the 2 HMG drones not enough?
They don't have suppressive fire
Or.. sorry
Suppression
This rule
It forces stuff out of mobility stance so they can't use their dodge dice anymore
echo marten
That seems very mean
orchid tulip
How common is melee in E:OP?
compact leaf
It honestly depends on what lists you're fighting and what you're bringing yourself
HMG btw
Really really mean gun
And then you shoot that same mech with a railgun afterwards since it can't dodge anymore
Iirc there's an RDL core that gives you an extra firing pip so you can accomplish it in 1 turn
orchid tulip
Ye. I am either replacing the SMG for Misty, or moving Anser's Pilebunker to left arm
compact leaf
That seems very mean
It is!
But it's necessary.
UN dodge tanks are much more difficult to deal with otherwise
compact leaf
Iirc there's an RDL core that gives you an extra firing pip so you can accomplis...
Like this?
orchid tulip
I am still very very new to Ember
compact leaf
It is a very very new game
So thankfully everyone else is also new, myself included
Ember has a lot of weird meta stuff already
RDL is definitely harder to build for than UN too
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compact leaf
Hmm, certainly better.
You can probably run with this for a while, but when you're comfy with normal play I'd highly recommend looking into the shenanigans you can get into via the echoes backpack and dune core :3
AKA multiple activations per turn and playing with the order or stuff