Given that Sandtrap releases right at the end of November, probably something like a week after that
#Indie+Alternative Wargaming
compact leaf
echo marten
Yeah, since units share orders, cheerleaders give orders but rarely use them much.
velvet badge
And then there're units that don't share their orders or can only use their orders for specific things which opens up nuance for untrained mooks who don't share orders being cheaper than trained ones who can
echo marten
Fusiliers might be stupid, incompetent, unfit and not particularly good at anything but hey, they're professional.
orchid tulip
I fail to see a reason to use Burst Mode atm
compact leaf
Well
Those rules are straight up wrong right now
Someone's punched the wrong numbers into the system
It should be B1 for the AM mode and B2 for the burst mode
With the ammunition listed on your image
But now the ammo is missing, bursts are messed up....
Did we catch them in the middle of an update or something
orchid tulip
Dunno
tiny ridge
Gaslands is lacking in popularity and, as my first wargame, this saddens me
compact leaf
Every time Ashley speaks.. I get closer to dropping infinity
If only it wasn't my only choice besides GW games around here 
twin mountain
Ah sorry, like, I hope that my rants are taken in good fun
End of the day I'm not really here to tell people their faves suck
I'm just being petty with friends
Till check out BLKOUT if you wanna see an infinity style game I'm excited for
trail fulcrum
Me right now being an idiot
Hmmmmm conquest
why are all the models for spires so sexy
twin mountain
I'm actually kinda excited to try and run a sorta igyg game with my cule today - bestiary of sigillum
trail fulcrum
Ooooh
echo marten
Winged is lying, she secretly enjoys crushing hope 😛
compact leaf
End of the day I'm not really here to tell people their faves suck
We get those vibes yeah, you're all good.
Still, I generally agree with most of what you're saying and each game of infinity I've played has been enjoyed slightly less than the last. So I'm like.. sort of looking for excuses to play literally anything else (which will probably be some combination of Dropfleet and Trench Crusade since the former is awesome and the latter is popular around where I live)
orchid tulip
I am just slowly gettin' more uninterested in wargames as a game
orchid tulip
I kinda wanna read BLKOUTs rules but I don't feel like giving them my deets just to get the "free" download
pearl knot
I object to characterising cheerleaders as a problem tbh. It's kind of a gamey setup, but it's a valuable innovation.
I got kinda sick of games where every unit has to be optimised for how well it fights/plays objectives in its own right, so there's no room for a rank-and-file presence unless they're like, loaded down with special rules to make them punch above their weight or shield important units or something.
"It always comes down to the infantryman and his rifle" sorry Jim there's no room for your standard rifle infantry, everybody's gotta be a spangly shitkicker with a plasma cannon or you're just not worth your points, and any resemblance to authentic armies has to be left by the wayside.
echo marten
Cheerleaders also sorta help give 'I get into the enemy backline' units more use even if they're not able to fight Achilles or a TAG or something.
pearl knot
Cheerleaders also sorta help give 'I get into the enemy backline' units more use...
Exactly.
echo marten
As they add a vulnerability to your force you need to protect
umbral prawn
I think BLKOUT is supposed to read as "blackout" but I keep reading "bulkout"
compact leaf
Till wanna try BLKOUT with me on tts sometime?
We'd be willing!
We've looked through the base rules a little bit, just have to understand unit cards a little better
compact leaf
I kinda wanna read BLKOUTs rules but I don't feel like giving them my deets just...
^
Oh yeah
Also
There you go EKU
twin mountain
I got kinda sick of games where every unit has to be optimised for how well it f...
I mean, like, what are they doing in the fantasy of the actual fight? I think I play a lot of games with a lot of room for units that aren't very good
ultimately I'm not really here to bag on anybody's games but I've never seen the problem infinity is trying to solve and the way infinity is trying to solve it is just like. making you not use some units and use the actual units you don't like over and over again instead?
if your problem is hyper optimized units
pearl knot
Hyper-optimised units aren't the problem for me per se.
twin mountain
like, I love playing games like neuroshima hex and stuff where some of your units are just bad
and that's okay
like you just have to work with them
I'm thinking of running bloodstones sometime on strategy club
compact leaf
Cheerleaders just kind of sit there most of the time is the thing
twin mountain
I think dominions also does interesting stuff with poor fucking infantry
like if your problem is "most games only support hyper optimized units", having a game let you put down random dudes so you can chain activate your hyper optimized unit feels like more of the problem
not less
echo marten
I mean, cheerleaders do a fair bit with reaction fire from my experience. People joke about them but a Fusiliar and his Combi-Rifle can do a lot to stop a more elite dude in his tracks. They play more reactively than actively but they're still part of the battle unless you're going absolutely full Rambo Build.
twin mountain
sure but that's also the case for like, any other game where they can wander around and have a reaction system
pearl knot
My problem is when the game encourages entire armies of hyper-optimised units - when there's that enormous disconnect between setting lore of something that resembles a regular army with a bunch of guys with small arms and the occasional special weapon, and then actual play looks like every squad is just a vehicle for those 'special' weapons, and the regular guys with small arms are just ablative armour for the Stuff That Matters, which you usually want to cut down on as much as possible.
twin mountain
My problem is when the game encourages **entire armies** of hyper-optimised unit...
dapp, there are games that don't do this. like infinity isn't the best solution imo
wanna play bloodstones with me sometime?
I'm happy to help run more games with weird textured armies full of guys who are kinda bad
compact leaf
I do have to say, maybe the whole "drop new equipment for you dudes from the sky" mechanic could help with the cheerleaders™ problem a bit
But I doubt it'll completely remedy it
It's just a thing infinity has, I guess
echo marten
...I think I might bow out of this conversation.
twin mountain
ah sorry, no I can stop
I'm happy to stick in if people are having a good time chatting about this but really - just enjoy infinity
echo marten
I mean, it's also 1:30am. So I've got other reasons to bow out too 😛
tepid steeple
just as a thing to say; cheerleaders aren't caused by the order system, they're caused by the fact that buying orders and buying units is mostly 1:1
echo marten
I think part of it is also that I like Infinity's ability for a single model to make a Big Multi-Activation play, if they end up in a good place to take actions.
twin mountain
just as a thing to say; cheerleaders aren't caused by the order system, they're ...
you're kinda right - I do like the way battalions war of the ancients does its "infinity order system"
where you can chain activate one guy but it just costs more and more tokens
1, 2, 4, 8 etc
pearl knot
And Infinity works for me because it encourages taking those regular troops and gives them a mechanical purpose in acting as a support structure for the spotlight units. In the fantasy of the game I can assume they're like, holding angles, handling logistics, generally providing the kind of backup that allows an elite operator to go on a tear safe in the knowledge that somebody's watching their back, but the main thing is that like, providing that kind of support structure in a purely mechanical sense feels like the 'right' thing for regular troops to be doing to me.
tepid steeple
having number of units and number of orders be (mostly) 1:1 isn't like, inherent to units not having one activation each
twin mountain
also I know corvus belli are also doing interesting things with warcrow
where you can chain activate but it costs fatigue on the guy you're pushing hard
tepid steeple
like warhammer underworlds has exactly 4 orders a round for every team
riposte has cheerleading but instead of it being 'weediest guys are the cheapest order' its 'your leaders give you extra orders'
twin mountain
And Infinity works for me because it encourages taking those regular troops and ...
I feel like there are games that just actually do this dapp. I'm a huge fan of this stuff. not being funny - I love chess?
😳
and chess is a game that's nothing but chain activation
but you can't just rampage with a queen
you actually DO need all the pawns and stuff
to hold angles
it's really cool and I wish more games did that
tepid steeple
I used to do a fun strat which was basically a knight rampage but I forgot how to do it :(
and it only worked if the other person wasn't paying attention so
twin mountain
like chess is kind of a weirdly cool alternating activation game with chain activations and lots of little guys who are damn necessary to support your bruisers
tepid steeple
but yeah chess is pretty cool actually
echo marten
I've had situations where say, a single Naga ended up going on a real blitz because they ended up in a good position to act. The game has, at times, had a bit of an issue with 'ramboing' being a hair much but I really like Infinity's ability to have a single model go on a rampage if things are set up right for them (With the limitations being that very few things in infinity will surivive 'the plan went wrong'. XD)
tepid steeple
blkout looks interesting, its pretty popular in the anvil industry discord cause they make a lot of modern/nearfuture scifi models
echo marten
Also: I play Aleph. You will pry my Netrods from my cold dead hands.
tepid steeple
netrods are neat cause they're cheaper than the cheapest guys but a lot easier to kill
compact leaf
They're just sticking out of the ground
tepid steeple
both because they're not a guy and because they deploy in the midground
twin mountain
oh wait I meant to post a thing uh
tepid steeple
and I also think part of infinity is that if you actually treat your line troops like cheerleaders with no gameplay impact themselves you'll do bad sdfgsfdk
pearl knot
Yeah, you do actually need them to hold angles for realsies.
twin mountain
I kinda wanna read BLKOUTs rules but I don't feel like giving them my deets just...
here, quick summary:
basically each model has 1 action point they can spend before, during, or after their activation
echo marten
and I also think part of infinity is that if you actually treat your line troops...
Oh yeah, treating line troops as 'guys you hide in a corner' is just waiting for a single drop troop to scythe through them.
compact leaf
Reminder that I did literally post the BLKOUT rules here like
5 minutes ago
So..
Hopefully they see it ._.
twin mountain
you can spend your action point to shoot at anybody who shoots in your los, who ends a movement or action in your los, or you can dodge a bit in reaction (essentially using your activation's double move as a reaction)
echo marten
I am also really enjoying tinkering with Riposte. My desire to tinker has resulted in me maybe tinkering with my own game based on the system but that's heavily just for my own amusement.
twin mountain
so on your activation you can step out and shoot people or you can shoot people when they activate before you or you can shoot people by holding your action point after you activate so they walk into you later
it's pretty clean tbh
pearl knot
I feel like there are games that just actually do this dapp. I'm a huge fan of t...
shrugs Probably. I have a lot of things that feed into Infinity being close to a perfect game for me, and it's rare for something else to hit enough notes at once to compare. I can't stand chess for the way it devolves into such a solved game that's all down to memorised openers, the reactivity and scope for winning on the table rather than in listbuilding or deployment is a plus for with Infinity, and so is the specific point that Infinity hits on the scale between gonzo and gritty - I looked at blkout but it leans too far towards the 'tactical operators doing authentic small unit tactics with a modern aesthetic and techbase' for me, reminds me of CoD in a way that leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Infinity avoids that with the gonzo side where I can do tactical operators operationally operating operatically, but like, with space werewolves vs muslim hell's angels.
orchid tulip
^
Oh yeah
Also
Danke
twin mountain
pearl knot
Bloodstones seems interesting tho, and I do still want to try dropfleet.
sudden halo
It should be B1 for the AM mode and B2 for the burst mode
Both modes have been burst 2 for forever. Burst mode gets AP or shock, while Anti material does DA.
compact leaf
Dropfleet is goooooood
sudden halo
I really didn't like it the one game I've played of it.
compact leaf
Both modes have been burst 2 for forever. Burst mode gets AP or shock, while Ant...
Wait
No
You're wrong!
You're kidding!
IT CAN'T BE!!
sudden halo
Which feels weird because I loved battlefield gothic and I'm been pining for a space game.
compact leaf
Did you play Dropfleet 2.0 though?
It's a lot less obtuse than the first edition
sudden halo
Yeah, like 5 days ago.
compact leaf
Ah, we're curious as to what the problems you had with it were
echo marten
Also: Oh no, a friend of mine is doing up old RPG characters from games I was in as Infinity models. XD
sudden halo
The Warhammer armor saves system really made a lot of activations seem useless.
With spaceships each unit completing a fullactivation rather than phases, with no preplotted movement or initiative system... Just doesn't feel like spaceships?
I like the objective focus but I don't like that it's always dropsites, though that's one thing I can give the game.
I'm definitely going to give it another shot as it's picking up a lot of steam and it's not like I'm getting another new hotness space game anytime soon, but it does have me thinking about how I could add scan+sig and drop ship gameplay to Full Thrust.
pearl knot
I'm definitely going to give it another shot as it's picking up a lot of steam a...
I imagine you're keeping an eye on Acheron's Fall, then
sudden halo
Yeah, I backed it when it was announced. I'm not sure it'll be any good but I want to support games in the space
fallen rune
like warhammer underworlds has exactly 4 orders a round for every team
I wish Underworlds wasn’t super annoying to get the models for it sounds neat
tepid steeple
yeahhh
sudden halo
The other thing I weirdly don't like about Dropfleet is the scale. Miles long spaceships are super overdone and boring to me. Not really something keeping me from playing but it definitely makes me less likely to buy models, or go buy something somewhere else to proxy.
I've been off and on working on a game where fighters are individually based and big ships are all in the 100-300 meter range. Something where individual people matter a bit more than your standard space faire
sudden halo
I wish Underworlds wasn’t super annoying to get the models for it sounds neat
GW makes some killer specialist games. Underworlds is really fun, if maybe a bit light for my tastes.
It's a great experiment on if you can get a minis game to work in the same sort of gaming spaces as TCGs.
tepid steeple
second edition vastly simplifies the warbands and I'm mad abt it
tepid steeple
cause they'd gotten so good and flavourful and wild
fallen rune
It’s only a quasi-specialist game now but I have been really enjoying getting into kill team otoh
So it’s a bummer to hear that Underworlds got pared down
tepid steeple
cause that's what happens when you actually let a game exist for 8 years gw
I think a lot of the core changes are actually good tbf. I think it's still got a lot of what made it a cool game. just lost so much as well
riposte is fun. I'm making mercenary werewolves for fulda rift. Lycansknecht 🐺
compact leaf
The warbands were what made that game for me, it's a shame they lost a lot of their flare :(
fallen rune
Going back a bit BLKOUT looks interesting but I get weird vibes from the devs so I’ve kinda stayed away from it
compact leaf
That has also been our stipulation with it as well
sudden halo
Same
Speaking of vaguely modern skirmish, I think Free Leagues version of Twilight 2000 would make a good basis for a skirmish game. Just need to write some structure around activations and force construction.
compact leaf
It's not bad vibes per se, but they're definitely not good either
fallen rune
Yeah no red flags I could see but also not a lot of green flags
compact leaf
It's really just instinct telling me something is off 😅
sudden halo
Their whole website feels a lot like the website for that one chuddy skirmish game.
That's basically it as far as what makes me uneasy, because I wasn't able to find much out about the devs.
sudden halo
The Warhammer armor saves system really made a lot of activations seem useless. ...
Oh, the last problem was that I felt like the game took entirely too long compared to the depth of the decision making, but I'll chalk that up to inexperience and TTS being kind of clunky.
compact leaf
Feels like the decision making gets more complex or simpler depending on the factions you choose
At least I think I've noticed that
Like shaltari and their gateships, Resistance and their absurd abundance of customization, etc etc..
Whereas UCM just rushes in and does objectives and you just sort of have to deal with them being able to do that
sudden halo
I played resistance vs UCM, which felt like a particularly rough matchup because the only AP resistance has is scald and their sensor ranges are tiny.
Definitely seemed winnable and I'm not experienced enough to claim a balance issue but any given shot having a 1/18 chance to do a point of damage was incredibly boring.
Oh less than that even.
1/2 to hit
1/3 to fail armor
1/3 to fail armor reroll
5/6 to fail group backup save
compact leaf
It's very hard to instantly kill stuff in Dropfleet 2.0, yeah
Unless it's like
A corvette or a lighter
Then they just die
sudden halo
My read was you bassically have to pull UCM apart, abuse detectors and huge bomber formations and skirt the edges for 3 turns and then maybe try to score.
Yeah, not even looking for instant kills, just like consistent points of damage aren't possible in that matchup.
compact leaf
It's rather hard unfortunately
I do think resistance, out of all the factions, benefits most from carriers though
Like
That's probably where most of your damage is coming from
sudden halo
Definitely. Their bombers are pretty slow though and can't hit things in atmo, which makes that extra challenging.
Like they have a particular game plan they need to do but their tools to do it arent great.
compact leaf
Fire ships baybeeee
twin mountain
Going back a bit BLKOUT looks interesting but I get weird vibes from the devs so...
y'know this is super valid. they are very american? their previous game was some american warfighter call of duty thing
they are complicated and I don't know if I want to hard push them on strategy club just yet
fallen rune
It’s kinda hard to pinpoint
pearl knot
I do get kind of a strong CoDbros vibe
fallen rune
Like hmm… the lead dev (“head goon”) does livestreams on Facebook while wearing a ski mask and the comments are full of F150 sunglasses guys
pearl knot
Or, hmm, maybe more R6: Siege.
fallen rune
Just kinda feels like the black rifle coffee company of tt wargames kinda
tepid steeple
idk if blkout has the 'veteran made' branding but I think their previous project did
tepid steeple
which I'm not saying is a concrete flag or anything but Yeah
sudden halo
Just kinda feels like the black rifle coffee company of tt wargames kinda
Kinda, I can see it. At least how they felt initially, very this is cool stuff for cool army guys by cool army guys. Brcc made their absolutely terrible politics well known though
compact leaf
which I'm not saying is a concrete flag or anything but Yeah
Well.
It's an American flag, I suppose
tepid steeple
ayyy
fallen rune
Yeah BRCC is a kinda fraught comparison since they went way further
tepid steeple
yeah definitely
sudden halo
Ski mask thing feels very armed leftist rather than chudly but sunglasses f150 guys kinda subverts that
tepid steeple
there's a level of irony I think
compact leaf
We may also be reading far too hard into the stereotypes that exist and are making assumptions based on that
It's like
We really don't know much, and we don't really have a way of knowing more without asking directly
fallen rune
Yeah
tepid steeple
I think it's just abt being comfortable investing emotionally n stuff
which is never a sure thing but like
sudden halo
That's fair. I agree with Penny, I think all of us have been burned a few times with games and don't really want to be again.
hollow crypt
firelock 😔
tepid steeple
there's a reason I stayed away from infinity until pretty recently sfgf
but also everyone has different amounts of capacity for stuff and that's fine
fallen rune
Honestly the biggest reason for my hesitancy with BLKOUT is probably just that I’ve just recently found a pretty good irl community for Kill Team so it’s really fruitful to invest there for me
And KT is very up my alley for how it does things
sudden halo
That's me with Infinity. My skirmish game quest is more or less over as the Infinity scene here is quickly becoming the biggest in the US
We went from almost no tournaments to having a satellite here in February.
fallen rune
Noice
tepid steeple
stuff seems quiet here atm for infnity but I'm hoping n5 helps
sudden halo
My game design beefs and quibbles aren't as important as being able to play consistently with cool people who respect my identity and are super excited about hanging out
Pressure is on though, I won Attack On Atlanta last year, so I'm the defending champ...
Nevermind the fact that last year it was a 20 person new player tournament and this years it'll be a satellite 
hollow crypt
(Wrt blkout, I joined their discord server and had a cursory look. Nothing immediately jumped out at me as something to be worried about other than the things people have already observed)
fallen rune
Glad to hear it
thick trellis
pearl knot
You're welcome :)
fallen rune
Yeah it’s odd haha
twin mountain
Honestly the biggest reason for my hesitancy with BLKOUT is probably just that I...
oh do well me on kill team sometime
you guys are right that blkout has super iffy vibes
fallen rune
oh do well me on kill team sometime
So the stuff I like:
- it is AA, albeit with some manipulation. There’s abilities which let some teams activate back to back or force an enemy operative to delay their activation. There’s also reaction fire but only once you run out of operatives to activate. No multiple activations for 1 model except for a specific monster.
- no measurement limitations
- this is sort of polarizing but I like it: no blind list building. You assemble your roster once you know what you’re up against.
- similarly, teams are mostly fixed in composition but also fairly unique in rules. Lots of “weird” teams because of how the rosters work.
- combat is punchy and lethal, which I like the feeling of, but it’s a very objective oriented game so there’s multiple modes of interaction to win
It’s also a very nicely balanced game which is mostly won by decisions on the table more than what you brought to it
But this is less true than usual because the new edition launched like 5 weeks ago and there’s some balance iffiness in the wake of that
(There’s about 3 teams which are clearly OP and a several more who either can’t fight them well or are a little too weak atm)
Also has a bunch of nice non competitive support but I admit I like the game for its stability in a competitive tournament format
twin mountain
So the stuff I like:
- it is AA, albeit with some manipulation. There’s abilitie...
kill team is still a continuous space game right? 👀
tepid steeple
reaction fire is now reaction anythinh
twin mountain
gosh y'know
all this discussion
has gotten me wanting to play moonstone
I know it's got a tts mod
I should check it out
fallen rune
kill team is still a continuous space game right? 👀
Like 90% yes - it’s continuous but rounds to the nearest inch
twin mountain
I see
tepid steeple
or two inches vertically for climbing
fallen rune
EG you can’t move .5 inches it counts as 1 even if you move the model less than an inch
Also has pretty good TTS support
Albeit mostly for the last edition
But it’s not that bad to kludge in the new one until it updates
fallen rune
kill team is still a continuous space game right? 👀
As a sort of addendum - a lot of the weapons are unlimited range so measurement is a lot less important than controlling fire lanes
tepid steeple
yeah thats fun
like weapons either have a significantly restricted range or unlimited range
orchid tulip
KT seems like a game I'd need to play several games with a couple of different teams to 1) understand the game and 2) find a team I enjoy playing
twin mountain
As a sort of addendum - a lot of the weapons are unlimited range so measurement ...
I've heard lots of good things about kill team honestly, it just never rose in my consciousness to the point that I wanted to look into it
it's warhammer right?
I hate to say it but I'm a little bit tired of 40k. it's not like... zombie games level of tired, but I'm pretty tired
tepid steeple
thats valid
fallen rune
Yeah it’s a 40K game
twin mountain
like I find myself going "oh look a thing that is forty kay but they scrubbed the name plate off and called it korty fay. sold."
fallen rune
It does have a lot of representation from factions who aren’t in big hammer which is fun
tepid steeple
in some ways the fact its 40k gets weird cause like, not every faction has a team in the game while some have several but because the 40k ecosystem is designed to make you associate with your faction on like, a personality level, so it alienates people who dont have a team to play (or had a team from the 2021 launch which is no longer valid for the new edition)
orchid tulip
Looks at Tyranid
fallen rune
It’s funny to me how Tyranids have 0 and Genestealer Cults have 2 and they’re bangers
compact leaf
I don't really know if it's my want to be "different" that makes me averse to touching 40k or what, but I just.. try at every point I can to push it out of my brain
Like
I tried it (the big game, the setting)
It was fine
But I just don't gel with it (the grimdark setting) on a personal level for some reason
fallen rune
Yeah that’s fair
I like it as a contrast to other sci fi and because I like wargame settings where it’s probably assholes vs assholes and every model on the board plausibly deserves it
tepid steeple
also a game where guy with sword actually wants to use it
compact leaf
It does get points for making chainswords a thing
fallen rune
Yeah
I play legionaries so I have a lot of sword guys who are very intent on using them
Though I’m taking a little bit of a break from them because they’re top 2 in this edition launch
tepid steeple
im so excited to play aquilons but im refusing to until I paint them but tbh I might give up one that
sleek trail
BLKOUT seems neat but i half-remember some discourse that the lead dev is a mild shithead or something
Like, interpersonally
Coming through the infinity grapevine
I feel like zeo genesis hits upon a lot of the stuff BLKOUT does but better, as well
Because its roundless you can do a lot more chain-activation-y stuff
No ftf tho
fallen rune
How does roundless work?
sleek trail
When you run out of activations you take a regrouping turn
Where you get all your resources back and do some upkeep but not activate any units
You still do have to activate everything first but theres a lot of ways to cheat activation orders
It has a very HH 2.0 reaction system
Anyways on the infinity front i wish that more cheerleaders were interesting as units unto themselves
Stuff that still did work sitting in the back line
More jaguars less alguaciles
But i do like it for the reason mentioned, it does organically lead to a force that isnt just the strongest stuff
And it gives a weak link to attack a list.
fallen rune
When you run out of activations you take a regrouping turn
Ah ok that makes sense
So sort of “rounds” happen faster if you have fewer units?
sleek trail
Yeah
But they also are not synchronous with your opponents rounds
Which is how its able to scale
Like i think rn with its force org it can technically scale to like
5 mechs and thirty infantry a side?
fallen rune
That’s pretty neat
sleek trail
Yeah
I def want to give it a go
Ita got a bit of infinity about it
Ita also got some wild mech sizes
Theres one on a 13cm base
sleek trail
TC KS is over, 3.3mil it seems
Ludicrous amount of money
teal cloud
I wonder what they'll do with that warchest
They're acclerating their plans for their next intended KS, the corpse front campaign, and they're hiring more artists.
But beyond that they've explicitly stated they are trying not to get into the Overfunded-KS doom spiral
orchid tulip
Well, they spent money on a cake so far
sleek trail
But beyond that they've explicitly stated they are trying not to get into the Ov...
They seem poised to avoid it
Not adding stretch goals was a good call
sudden halo
When you run out of activations you take a regrouping turn
Reminds me of Mobile Arms, which was written by one of the infinity locals here.
It uses a mech-themed heat/vent cycle but it's that for activations.
It's continuous space but it's movement widgets. Not much TTS support aside from Corey's testing version.
Mech building is done with cards, and pretty quick. Game was also explicitly designed to be able to be played with Infinity TAGs since so many of the cool looking ones aren't great in gameplay.
sleek trail
Nice
haughty bobcat
Alternating activation and the battletech one where all your actions resolve at the same time are both so good I can’t choose a favourite
sleek trail
Btech is hybrid
I think we shouldnt just go "x activation style is good"
Its so reductionist
compact leaf
They're good at different things is all
haughty bobcat
Olay but “I go you go” always runs into the leafblower effect
compact leaf
Igyg is just kinda bleh these days feels like
haughty bobcat
Yeah idk I just have two systems I like personally so idk
fallen rune
The upside to IGYG is kinda just being able to have big coordinated plays
But yeah it’s an inherently swingy format
sleek trail
You can have igougo without being rolled over
If tuned right
Like in infinity you can get rolled but you can combat it with good deployment because you have agency outside of your turn
fallen rune
And there’s some hybrids which is nice
sleek trail
Its the only igyg game i really like, to be fair
fallen rune
Like AoS having IGYG movement and shooting but AA melee combat
sleek trail
Because reactions are so common
I feel like phase based igyg is something that shoulf be experimented with
I take my phase first yhen you take yours
So you alternate turns throughout the round
The other thing i like about pure-ish igyg (which isnt even a defense) is that its really easy to communicate where in the turn you are
In the game rather
"Top/bottom of round x"
But yeah in alternating activation games it often just becomes "i can only react to what you just did"
Instead of planning out a turn
fallen rune
Yeah
compact leaf
It really depends what kind of AA it is right..
And what a piece is capable of in a given turn in the game
fallen rune
I’m not always a big fan of how much it can be about playing around specific model activations and such
compact leaf
Yeaaaa
That's my biggest gripe
You're trying to bait out your opponent's big scary model to go delete something you don't care about so you can move safely for the rest of the turn
...and then repeate until someone wins
sleek trail
And once a model has gone its often a sitting duck
compact leaf
Indeed
I sort of appreciate conquest's card system where you plan out your activations beforehand, and sometimes there are turns you get to use more than one if you set it up right
But the entire game needs to be built around it to work
sleek trail
I think thats most activation systems tbh
Everything in infinity comes back to the fact you can rambo someone up the board with 10 orders if not stopped
fallen rune
Models being able to multi-activate seems wild to me yeah
sleek trail
Its VERY fun
next pilot
I wonder what the other zeo genesis factions will be
sleek trail
Needs a good alien faction
next pilot
it definetly needs a weird faction yeah
twin mountain
I feel like zeo genesis hits upon a lot of the stuff BLKOUT does but better, as ...
Oooh I'd love to learn more
twin mountain
When you run out of activations you take a regrouping turn
Oooo
sleek trail
its def got a lot of promise
i want to give it a go
but too many games rn...i have projects for kill team, mordheim, infinity, and gaslands all going
twin mountain
I think it's funny that everything everyone lists as a negative of AA, I think is a huge positive
Like reactive play is kind of interactive play
The alternative is combos
I'm not really a fan of combos anywhere
Isn't baiting the enemy scary thing into activating loads of fun?
Like that's feints and positioning and probing
sleek trail
what i like about like
good igougo (infinity)
is that the board becomes a problem i have to solve
my opponent has offered me a puzzle and i get to try and tackle it
i can make a plan
and try and act on it
and i can still do stuff like trying to bait out certain threats
reactive play isnt bad, i think all good wargames need strong reactivity
but theres different ways to achieve that
im not against AA, far from it
but im against the idea that its like. the solved form for wargames
If we talk in terms of like
design interest
i think there should be as much design interest in trying new forms of Igougo instead of just AA
i really like the potential of group activations as slicing this balance
where i get a few turns to myself to execute on something
but not my entire go for the round all at once
like, AA struggles with asymmetrically sized forces
which, to be fair (and one of the reasons the game compels me) zeo genesis solves
because it does away with rounds
and of course there are other activation schemas than AA and igougo
im not sure if grab bag activation is more or less deranged
but its something
theres gotta be like
sleek trail
grab bag being "grab the token from the bag to see if its your activation or my activation" in my usage
if thats how you are using it
i realized not everyone might use the same word
but it IS deranged
fallen rune
That's similar to how Stargrunt does it
There's a bag full of colored chits and each color corresponds to different types of units and you get to activate a unit with the right color when you draw a chit
sleek trail
ok yeah talking about the same thing
i was thinking about bolt actions version where your dice and your opponents dice go in a bag and you draw from the bag and whoever's dice comes out gets yo go
trail fulcrum
My silly idea is grab bag with different dice representing different types of units
twin mountain
I much prefer grab bag to igyg
sleek trail
I think all of us can agree pure igyg is a blight
sleek trail
My silly idea is grab bag with different dice representing different types of un...
Hm
I think this works if you have it where both players dice are in the same bag
Because the problem of course is that you can feel what dice are in the bag
compact leaf
Y'know what
Grab bag might be a neat idea for a board game
You pay x resources to put x dice of a type in a bag, and then use the dice as the units you roll
...well I suppose I'll throw that into the idea pool for when I decide to start game design
sudden halo
Isn't baiting the enemy scary thing into activating loads of fun?
I kind of hate it. I don't like spending most of the turn with both players activating their nothingburger units till you both eventually have to activate your scary thing in a way you don't really want to.
Easily one of the biggest positives of infinity to me is my big scary guy is legit big and scary. If they fail they get to keep trying.
If I was remaking infinity I'd do almost a reverse version of its order system.
Activate by groups. Each unit has its own order to do whatever, like irregular orders are in actual infinity
Then the group leader/NCO provides 1+ orders for coordinated orders or repeat activations.
That must be spent in that group (groups being like 4 models in this hypothetical)
Then the lieutenant providing 1+ orders for coordinated orders/repeat activations that can be spent on any group that has a living NCO.
Really emphasizing the chain of command but keeping the repeat activations that really make the ARO system tick.
I've tried alternating activations infinity and it stalemates super hard. You need to at least alternate in batches of 3 or so for it not to turn into super defensive play all the time.
trail fulcrum
Because the problem of course is that you can feel what dice are in the bag
That's the point
It's different dice for different unit types
trail fulcrum
It's an initiative type that you have to consider while listbuildijg
Ahha
New axis
trail fulcrum
Yeah unless someone was an idiot and spammed one unit type
sleek trail
if you have some kind of force org it prevents that
trail fulcrum
if you have some kind of force org it prevents that
I prefer organic built in discouragement
And like giving your opponent the ability to just say, "you activate nothing"
Till I decide you might
sleek trail
that is fun
orchid tulip
You don't like the Bangbomb?
compact leaf
I guess?
It's got the stipulation that you have to be able to see what's firing to use it
I think that's gonna trip some people up
orchid tulip
If it's close enough you don't need to see
echo marten
Feels like it could have just been Dodge +X like Tuetonic Knights have.
Like it's technically different.
But I don't feel it's different enough to super matter?
I am also laughing my ass off that this hassassin is dangerously close to my friend discussing RPG characters we'd played as infinity models a day ago.
tepid steeple
MODs that aren't a multiple of 3 wild
with ayyar not having access to sixth sense does the LoS restriction even matter
oh active turn?
right
actually in general the fact that it only applies when you're actually dodging an attack is super relevant with active turn dodging
echo marten
Not applying vs templates also makes it worse vs than the Teutonic dodge +X
tepid steeple
he's phys 17 for dodging bullets, not doing sprint dives to avoid triggering aros
obv this depends on how dodge is treated in general in n5 but that seems like its the main thing honestly
echo marten
Holoprojector + That level of dodging + 2 wounds is gunna make him disgustingly annoying to kill.
tepid steeple
like rn a bokhtar is pretty much always going to be doing 6-4 by dodging if they move twice cause they only have a 1/5 chance of failing a dodge
echo marten
...though I'll admit, I'm a little iffy on his offence. Like it's not bad but he seems more focused on 'I am a specialist troop that is that frustrating to kill'. +1 Burst AP rifle isn't bad...though I don't know what a Thunderbolt is. New Weapon?
tepid steeple
yeah
ps 6 is like
dam 14
so do his dualies have burst 3 now in those profiles?
or 4 I guess
ranged
2 cc
echo marten
Hard hitting, solid range but nothing too weird weapon-wise.
tepid steeple
it's like
weird long range heavy shotgun I guess? without the template profile
oh no hs is dam 15
echo marten
Fair. Lots of short range dakka.
echo marten
Yeah, with a name like that it's likely some sorta thrown mine. Like Mr Drop Bear.
I think my only iffy area with him is: I really don't like Bangbomb as a name. It's not really...indicative of its mechanics...and while it does have mechanical differences with Dodge +X it feels a little narrow in those differences for a whole separate piece of gear.
Unless they made Teutonic Knights also Bangbomb/removed Dodge +X.
tepid steeple
idk active turn dodging is a Whole Thing
they might have. it's notable this guy didn't have a dodge bonus at all before though
and I assume it's some sort of...defensive...flashbang?
like you throw it to throw off the aim or something
stable pelican
finished my first sandtrap mini
echo marten
Nice
tepid steeple
love the camo
I think teutonic knights have an unreleased model refresh
oh wait no there it is
compact leaf
finished my first sandtrap mini
Hhhow do you even have those
(also looks really good, love the camo)
stable pelican
have what?
compact leaf
Sandtrap minis
compact leaf
Oh
stable pelican
terrain too
compact leaf
Guess your region got their copies faster than mine, I gotta wait till the end of the month :b
stable pelican
idk how but CB sends stuff inhumanely quicker to Israel for some reason
velvet badge
I'm waiting on mine still but I'd hardly expect Canada to ever get stuff early
autumn sun
idk how but CB sends stuff inhumanely quicker to Israel for some reason
Well they are located in Spain.
orchid tulip
Looking at Tohaa video, and the first thought I got watching this image was: discount Halo Grunt?
velvet badge
Reex my beloved
sleek trail
MODs that aren't a multiple of 3 wild
Potentially a typo
They gotta give it a better name than bangbomb
tepid steeple
we're talking about the game that renamed damage to piss
orchid tulip
Considering the typos we have seen in recent profiles, maybe this is why they delayed it all?
sleek trail
Typos in spoiler profiles is nothing new
sudden halo
They gotta give it a better name than bangbomb
I guess the idea is that it's a flash bang? I wonder if that's the literal translation of the Spanish word for them.
sleek trail
Ooooh. That kinda makes sense
twin mountain
@lean pilot @sand sonnet I got to run moonstone yesterday for one of my more whimsical arcane hema friends @violet sonnet - and she loved it
it's a really cool game
I love how they simplified the core wargame mechanics so hard just to pile the interesting stuff into the cards
I'd love to play it some more
sand sonnet
I haven't played it much on TTS but would be interested in playing it more.
Just a really simple skirmish idea, and a whole heap of interesting decisions in both deck mechanics.
What models/factions did you both play?
twin mountain
I just threw up a really basic starter set thing
now that I've run it once I feel confident just making my own comps for teaching games
it's super simple
sand sonnet
Yeah there are some ways you can get more complicated forces, but a lot of the baseline game is straightforward.
The complexity comes from staring across the field at your opponent and redoing the entire Princess Bride poison cup scene in your head.
tepid steeple
tepid steeple
weird new nomad guy
tepid steeple
vacillates between a bad securitate to a much better guy on a random basis. Which I guess works okay with fire teams
compact leaf
I hope we see more like that, I'm tired of overpriced total immunity everywhere
I'm fairly certain you're just supposed to move this guy up the board, transform, then berserk a small group
Like
18 points is not bad for that
tepid steeple
right but you're rolling on a turn by turn basis to see if he's even allowed to berserk
compact leaf
Order by order, actually
compact leaf
"❓🇬🇧 In case you are wondering, Transmutation (WIP) works as follows (summarized): when activating a troop, before declaring its order or ARO, you can make a WIP roll. If you pass, you transform during that turn. If not, try again in the next order or ARO."
tepid steeple
turn means too many different things in different games lol
tepid steeple
mm, much more practical than I was understanding haha
compact leaf
Indeeby
tepid steeple
and probably gonna die after doing a few trades rather than switch back anyway
sleek trail
Im so curious what the lore is for how they work
sudden halo
Drugs.
I think
The local warcor had the lore book which talks about them, but it was a month ago that I read it so I'm not sure.
sleek trail
That sounds about right
tepid steeple
so they're like morlocks n such but saying "these edibles aint shit" at the beginning of the game
compact leaf
I'm fairly certain it's voluntary, at least
sleek trail
so they're like morlocks n such but saying "these edibles aint shit" at the begi...
thats basically the lore it looks like
tunguska wanted supersoldiers that didnt burn the lifespan of the soldier down to nothing
for cheap
stable pelican
sleek trail
God the swiss with the sword is such a cool pose
Made all the better because he cant use it for shot
pearl knot
That's the PanOceanian way!
echo marten
Swiss Guard: "Look, is there anything more important than Looking Good?" Pauses "I've been informed that I'm apparently supposed to be Hidden Deployment."
Getting back into Infinity, I must admit I like O-12 a lot more now than when they first came out.
I think in part because when I supposed playing they were getting like 'Alpha Unit, Delta Unit, Kappa Unit' as their initial models
And I stand by loathing those units from a thematic perspective. A name should be at least vaguely indicative of their deal and they didn't even make Omega Unit the TAG when they totally could have.
echo marten
Much better now
Yes, to help get back into for N5 a friend and I sat on discord chat and went through all the units we'd missed.
A large part of O-12 was 'God dammit Iki, they get more copbrained'
Which to be fair: That's a theme! And it's a fun theme.
Much moreso than the Alpha/Beta/Gamma stuff that has basicly been forever tainted for me for naming things.
@cyan badge Talking about how we looked over O-12 and their 'bluecoats, copperbots and jackboots'.
cyan badge
Haha yes, good. The most possible amount of copbrain.
twin mountain
I just discovered full spectrum dominance
What an interesting game
I want to try it sometime
I love dice allocation shit
echo marten
I just discovered full spectrum dominance
Oh? How's it work?
echo marten
Interdasting
So it's very 'make the best of what you get' rather than 'carefully plan out a turn beforehand'
echo marten
Go to bed and count dice until you sleep Winged 😛
sudden halo
I played a second game of Dropfleet last night.
I'm coming around on it a little. It still makes me want to write drop rules for Full Thrust, and I don't think it has the depth for the long haul, but it can be pretty decent casual fun.
I like that it's not just objective focused but objectives also help you win the attrition war via shooting from features.
Maneuvering seems under emphasized. It doesn't feel like you can outmaneuver anyone or even ever turn around, so a lot comes to how you position your battle lines.
Mixed feelings on strikecraft and battalions. On the one hand im kind of sad they're as abstracted away as they are - seems like very little decision making. On the other, it keeps the game fast and out of the weeds.
tepid steeple
watching gmg go through operation sandtrap and new martial arts table seems really nice
pearl knot
A large part of O-12 was 'God dammit Iki, they get *more copbrained*'
to be fair, unlock irl cops, at least some of them carry actually non-lethal gear
... granted, some of them also carry heavy machine guns, but take the wins where you can get 'em
twin mountain
god I want to play more moonstone
it feels like the things I loved about guildball, back in my hands
sand sonnet
It does have some of the good things about Guildball in it, without the oops it's not actually a sports game part.
Also absolutely great models.
I really need to work on my Shades stuff soon.
sleek trail
Jesus christ pano noctifier
echo marten
Oh boy, PanO totally needed more hidden deployment monsters.
...I think that's an upgraded damage profile on it too?
Missile Launchers are PS 6, I'm not sure what N5 Rocket Launchers are.
tepid steeple
dam 13 is ps 7 I think?
so ps 5 is dam 15
which is up from 14 currently yeah
and it wouldnt specify if it wasn't an upgrade haha
echo marten
To be fair, it could have been a downgrade.
Because someone went 'Hey, this guy is hidden deployment with a heavy rocket launcher, maybe something should be cut' 😛
tepid steeple
mm
tepid steeple
Oh boy, PanO totally needed *more* hidden deployment monsters.
at least they don't get them all in vanilla haha (I think)
jeeze
so yeah vanilla has dropped hexas and isn't getting blink teams
sleek trail
Oh boy, PanO totally needed *more* hidden deployment monsters.
I doubt this will be in vanilla, at least
Ah, yep
Kestrel ONLY
echo marten
so yeah vanilla has dropped hexas and isn't getting blink teams
Oh thank god. So it's just Swiss, Cutters and Croc Men.
Well, "just" Swiss and Cutters. Hard to use 'just' to talk about those bastards.
sleek trail
At least its easier to account for a 50+ point hole
echo marten
At least its easier to account for a 50+ point hole
'I swear I'm just playing with a handicap bro'
cyan badge
Look the PanO player stone-face dead in the eye and hand over a blank courtesy list
deploy 20 camo tokens
echo marten
Go away Ariadna player 😛
cyan badge
back in me hole
sleek trail
scarecrows are another new hidden deploy that is in vanilla haha
At least they dont do the fucking noct thing
Kestrel shaping up to be a bit of a nightmare to fight though
echo marten
Do we yet know what the solitary new ALEPH unit is? We know the name but I've not seen stats
tepid steeple
dahshat can do like
10 mim -3 camos I think
and that's just the actual people
oh no its six
sad
but that and two minelayers
and then you bring even more minelayers
not a minelayer
this woman she is laying a mine??? not a minelayer
also like my least favourite haqq model haha
echo marten
Mine? That's clearly a Ghost Trap, she's about to go get her Proton Pack.
echo marten
I know @cyan badge is salty right now that with the loss of a chunk of the Scottish units, Vanilla Ariadna lost their only non-mercenary hacker. XD
tepid steeple
ooof
echo marten
They lost 100% (Of exactly 1) of them.
Which is funny when they do these days have Actual HI and Actual TAGs.
Not just the old 'We're wearing so much tessium that ALEPH cries seeing us' guys.
tepid steeple
thats silly yeah
cyan badge
We went from no HD, to only DHD, to a real HD, to no HD again. The circle of hacking.
tepid steeple
like if I was ariadna I would focus on getting together hackers before i got together more stuff that's weak to hackers
cyan badge
Being fair, hackers are weak to portable autocannons, so at least there's that?
echo marten
I'm shocked that Ariadna doesn't have EVO hacking devices.
As they'd sorta line up with 'What they want'
While keeping them as 'not great hackers'
sleek trail
I suspect its cause boosting their rems might end up with weird/problematic results
cyan badge
Just give us new REMs that have them, we already got p:servant ones
and we're getting some more combat REMs in N5 I believe, the tank looking ones they previewed
echo marten
Possibly. I was thinking Fairy Dust for the HI and Tags, Assisted Fire for their powerful but Lacking In Visors shooty guys...and...huh...they don't have any Combat Drop guys these day. So I guess just Fairy Dust and Assisted Fire as the big things.
But yeah, it would let them have a 'Support our vulnerable to hacker dudes' unit without making them doing much active hacking.
cyan badge
Legit
echo marten
I kinda miss Defensive Hacking Devices. They do feel like something that could come back. Zero Pain + Fairy Dust + White Noise or something.
echo marten
Just saw a review for the Halo Flashpoint wargame and...I must admit, I don't feel like the devs really used the property well.
It's 4v4 for the two teams, Spartans Only because it's based off Halo multiplayer.
sudden halo
I got my copy but I haven't got a chance to get it on the table. My expectations are medium/low. Mostly just thinking since it's all in one box I could get some non-minis friends into a wargame at least for game nights.
sudden halo
It seems like they're planning to expand more but I can kind of see why they did that, given that Halo Ground Command and Halo Fleet Battles both kind of tanked.
echo marten
I was so hoping to see a Hunter Model ;-;
sudden halo
There's models around for just about everything in the Haloverse, Ground Command is one where the community really kept it going after Spartan Games went out of business.
Including some upscaling to 28mm, which... I guess I get. Small scales 4 lyfe but I understand I'm in the minority there.
Just needs some enterprising community members to homebrew for Flashpoint.
cyan badge
RIP spartan games
I did really enjoy the Firestorm and Dystopian Wars games
(and of course I had to be difficult and play the weird factions in both)
sudden halo
Still, definitely feels like Mantic kept it super self contained, and probably did an admirable job battling scope creep with what looks to be a super successful test product launch.
tepid steeple
I guess if historically the market hasn't been there it makes sense
I heard it's got an element of board game entryism
sudden halo
I did really enjoy the Firestorm and Dystopian Wars games
Dystopian wars is back and the same company is doing Firestorm Armada as well. FA looks sweet, since the new Dystopian Wars rules seem really good but I really don't like the steampunk theme.
Flashpoint doesn't even have points costs yet. You draft teams.
cyan badge
Relthoza still doing their weird cloaking BS?
sudden halo
The spring expansion starts adding the listbuilding and such. It's definitely on the boardgame side.
tepid steeple
interesting
sleek trail
Just saw a review for the Halo Flashpoint wargame and...I must admit, I don't fe...
Snipe and wib?
echo marten
Snipe and wib?
Yep!
sleek trail
i think a lot of games are going for like
the next x wing
it has decent styles to take that spot imo but if its 4x4 only
i think it will fail
next pilot
It's 4v4 for the two teams, Spartans Only because it's based off Halo *multiplay...
...what? why
cyan badge
The apparent current purpose is a quick, pick up and play 'wargame' you can break out at board games night to entice people who don't normally play wargames to get started in the hobby
sand cloak
That's how it always starts.
First, you introduce them to a skirmish game from a 'verse.
Then, they're starting to ask you about other games.
Finally...They send you unsolicited pics of the armies they bought.
sleek trail
i got some infinity secondhand
and everything is present EXCEPT
i am missing one gun arm
for a zanshi
even the crane has parts together
alas
twin mountain
If anyone tries out full spectrum dominance tell me how it goes
compact leaf
Fremds
next pilot
spire has some cool units
sleek trail
Ehat game?
compact leaf
oo
trail fulcrum
All these are remote biotechnology monsters controlled by elven nobility
hollow crypt
Played godtear yesterday
is it god /tir/ or god /tɛr/?
twin mountain
little bit unclear actually but I think they're tears of the gods, crying style
twin mountain
yeah that already happened
all the gods are dead and you're mustering warbands of exalts fighting over their remains
sleek trail
Ah, its steamforged
I appreicate how it has units that are larger
Than just one hex
Thats rare
next pilot
a friend of mine is interested in the game, although I've kinda lost contact with him since he switched jobs
how does list building work, it's pick two right?
and while there's thematic factions (humans/elves/dwarves, undead, nature, monsters and orcs/goblins/bandits) you don't need to stick to those right?
twin mountain
pick 3
yeah it's dota style
you pick any 3
champions come with their own warbands
then you do exalted chess
compact leaf
funny GodTear should be brought up, one of our locals just sold a massive collection of it
next pilot
how is godtear to play?
trail fulcrum
compact leaf
Good lord they are large
twin mountain
how is godtear to play?
Only played 1 band vs 1 band but I was really impressed
Very chess
violet plank
I scrolled a little and saw Full Spectrum Dominance being talked about
Had a small game yesterday with my friend, we really liked the flow of action economy, although some rules are not all that clear tbh, had to dig trough PDF half of the time.
(I got absolutely crushed over action economy)
2 biggest things I would say are activation die economy and Command mechanic.
It is also very nice that you can play on a reasonably sized table without much trouble
With AD economy each unit action takes a die, and using most special abilities takes dies with specific values, and since most offensive abilities need die to activate, even with different army unit count the actual damage output is not that far off.
Command allows certain units to activate other friendlies as part of their own activation, which conserves activation dies, and allows better objective and map control. And AD economy doesn't let this mechanic to be used to absolutely outgun your opponent if they have less units or worse command stats.
twin mountain
Had a small game yesterday with my friend, we really liked the flow of action ec...
Ooh neat
Thanks dansi
next pilot
Chess?
twin mountain
it is quite chess like
in a way I really like
no los, hex grid movement
units block each other in very abstract but strategically relevant ways
like maybe you want to move one little guy onto a hex so the enemy big champion can't run through that hex into the objective zone
sleek trail
Does no LOS mean no ranged?
next pilot
fenra does look neat, I like wolves
compact leaf
Well, that's what that does
And Achilles' boyfriend profile
...with holomask and holoprojector
In other words
4 Achilles walk onto the battlefield holding hands
sleek trail
Lmao did he lose a wound
compact leaf
I was under the impression Patroclus was always 1w NWI
Oh my god he did lose a wound
tepid steeple
so like, deployable eclipse grenade?
compact leaf
Seems that way
tepid steeple
Lmao did he lose a wound
gained NWI so kinda a wash
tepid steeple
activating it that is?
tepid steeple
oh huh
twin mountain
Does no LOS mean no ranged?
No it's just hex ranges
Like a final fantasy tactics game
sleek trail
No it's just hex ranges
im afraid i don't follow
just like
straight lines out from the hex?
or just within a certain range
umbral prawn
Sounds like "there are no line of sight blockers, the only thing that matters is range"
twin mountain
Yeah just count hexes
twin mountain
yeah it's the usual way abstract strategy games handle it
advance wars, fire emblem, final fantasy tactics, etc.
it's mostly wargames that even bother modelling cover
also worth noting games like Tales From The Red Dragon Inn also don't model cover: you just curve every shot around obstacles using standard distance rules
and honestly? I find most cover rules to be more trouble than they are help in term of tactical depth. like cover systems are good for immersive realism and that's why I see them mostly in ttrpgs and wargames cause those are the games that care
but like, starcraft units don't get cover bonuses
hollow crypt
is this.. an example of a good one?
twin mountain
yes it's excellent
hollow crypt
oh this is just a really weird way of saying count to the target
twin mountain
it's also amazing how much of this rules block is explaining how many rules don't grandfather in from other games you're used to
hollow crypt
okay yeah sure
twin mountain
"no there's no cover. no there's no minimum range. no, no no."
"just count the hexes"
hollow crypt
(but not through impassable spaces)
twin mountain
even then you can count around them
hollow crypt
yeah
twin mountain
like that purple space in that example is impassable
hollow crypt
like it's just count range to move to that space
hollow crypt
I guess it's worded like this to let you bend it on purpose to hit a bunch of dudes?
twin mountain
no it's just there to be simple
evaluating los is just a lot of complexity for relatively little tactical depth. especially in tabletop
you're drawing lines from hexes to other hexes and stuff
honestly xcom has one of the only cover systems I like (but even then xcom has a full hidden videogame LOS thing for spotting enemies at all)
where you just get cover by being against an object and you get cover from everything past the line between you and the object
and also - let me just say that the modern standardization of cover granularity to just 2 levels (light cover, heavy cover) is a godsend
@hollow crypt , I am an old lady. there used to be like 5 steps of granularity. hear my torment.
dnd used to have like, 3/4ths cover and shit
hollow crypt
no it's just there to be simple
well I more mean it could be just counting hexes if it wasn't allowing for attacks to hit a bunch of dudes
also yeah I am aware of the silly cover rules
I've played PF1e
hollow crypt
I just found this flowchart and apparently I literally always played cover wrong?
in so many ways
hollow crypt
no cover from intervening creatures on melee attacks is the real one
twin mountain
godtear having zero cover or los mechanics at all is a real sign of a game made for me
hollow crypt
so many reach attacks with partial cover
so much marginal advantage, lost
yeah no that's very fair
In a game as heavily reliant on gm fiat to work as D&D and its cousins are, I sort of like it as a lever for the GM to move, but for something serious, it is hell
the battletech cover rules will haunt me till the end of my days
twin mountain
In a game as heavily reliant on gm fiat to work as D&D and its cousins are, I so...
y'know, that's super fair
with a referee you totally can just have cover come down to god said so and make it pretty quick
but yeah in wargames especially?
brutal
miserable
hollow crypt
I will say with grids at least you can be correct
MaM cover rules is part of the reason I despise the genre
sleek trail
Wargames cover good
I find cover on grids miserable
But theres ways to make cover in wargames good
Imo
I think cover is important for many games to encourage behaviour like flanking
And not standing still
Its not just for realism
Imo
It encourages certain ways of thinking about the space
Which is imo what wargames/analogue games/miniatures games do best
hollow crypt
I'm not saying that cover as like. a game mechanic is bad
it's just that determining cover in a MaM game has, in my exeperience, been an enormous pain
sleek trail
I think grid cover sucks tho cause often you have to break grid and then reestablish it
To make it work
twin mountain
I'm with tron, unclear rules resolution is a thing in MaM games and it's a huge cost
hollow crypt
games with silhouettes get away with it a bit more in my experience, but that's still like
twin mountain
with grid cover there is just a correct answer
and that's super valuable
like you do the algorithm and you're done
hollow crypt
I have to somehow shove my head into 800$ of painstakingly made minis and terrain to decide if my d6 roll is at -1
twin mountain
disagreeing with someone over tape measurements is also not fun
hollow crypt
TLOS?
sleek trail
disagreeing with someone over tape measurements is also not fun
Ive never really had this issue
hollow crypt
Non silhouette games
I mean yeah same hat
sleek trail
I far prefer measure and move to gridded but honestly comparing the two is complicated
Because the two are different mediums
I think
hollow crypt
Some part of me doesn't understand at all how you even do TLOS
sleek trail
I fucking hate it
Gridded solves some problems but locks down the possibility space immensely
Its no longer an analogue game
Its good for some purposes, absolutely
But its not like. De facto better game design
And sometimes i think its talked about like it is
sleek trail
Some part of me doesn't understand at all how you even do TLOS
Following up on fucking hating it, i get why some people like it, its the most intimate relationship with a model you can have, but like
Its just arguement city especially if its the most true version of tlos where you are technically measuring from the models eyes
Which i have seen done!
trail fulcrum
Some part of me doesn't understand at all how you even do TLOS
you cry
tame brook
dnd used to have like, 3/4ths cover and shit
I was going to take a picture of the 3rd edition D&D cover rules in an attempt to inflict psychic damage, but alas. I don't know where my 3.0 books are, and 3.5 was already more sane.
But it did refresh my memory on the absolute shitton of rules text to wade through, what a nightmare.
fallen rune
Ive never really had this issue
Yeah this is something which just generally doesn’t come up ime
teal cloud
Battletech's cover system is such a good example of why this is important
fallen rune
What is Btech's cover system?
teal cloud
Mechs get cover if there is a half sized object in front of them
Unless the shooter is standing on terrain higher than that cover
A unit can ignore cover it is directly adjacent to but no more
Cover fully blocks line of sight if its 1) taller than both or 2) taller than shooter or target and adjacent to one of them
trail fulcrum
Hahaha
teal cloud
If a shot travels across a hex border, it is the target's choice whether the shot goes on the "side" of the cover for the round, which also decides if its own return shot is affected by that cover
trail fulcrum
Me right now spotterssss
teal cloud
It generally works but i think i have at least one moment a game where it gets confusing, especially with lots of elevation
Oh! Also if you shoot a mech with cover and hit, if your shot hits the legs it retroactively missed by sailing into the terrain
You also have like, forest and smoke cover which adds difficulty to the shot for every interfering tile. After 3 tiles of trees LoS breaks, which I really like and implement in my Lancer games.
but trees have a height too so if the shooter is fully above the trees it ignores any except the hex that the target is in ahhhhhh
sleek trail
Btechs line of fire/sight system is frustrating to me
fallen rune
You also have like, forest and smoke cover which adds difficulty to the shot for...
Area terrain is good civilization yeah
Honestly the Btech system seems pretty good except for needing to model how tall things are
teal cloud
It becomes much easier with 3d terrain
umbral prawn
The btech cover system seems very similar to Lancer's actually
hollow crypt
Most of the insanity I remember from BTs cover rules is in TacOps tbf, but those do get weird ™️
sudden halo
The btech cover system seems very similar to Lancer's actually
At least with regard to the "see over equal height" stuff.
I'm gonna try Battletech Override tomorrow or Thursday. Pretty excited to see how it goes.
teal cloud
I haven't heard of that.
sleek trail
Anyone know any good army scale
Like. 40k-esque scale and style. Out of curiosity
Cause i feel like its often a very fraught space
Ive seen a fair few good rank+flanks
But not many of the 40k blob squad ones
fallen rune
Anything in particular you're looking for?
sleek trail
thats from the full thrust people, right?
fallen rune
yeah
sudden halo
Mantic makes one I think.
I mean, there's also Bolt Action.
And honestly Flames of War/Team Yankee except it's a few 15mm to a base instead of 1 guy.
I guess it's not a super populated/contested space. 40k dominates the space and personally I don't think it's particularly good game design, as blob movement takes forever and doesn't represent anything tactically significant imo, but it's wild to not see that many copycats.
Oh Warmahordes was a big one that I suppose still exists.
sleek trail
im looking at a multibase 15mm factionless rn
and god multibasing squads is so cool
making little dioramas
sleek trail
I guess it's not a super populated/contested space. 40k dominates the space and...
its one of the things that does feel like it exists purely for verisimilitude
i liked SW legions take
which seems to speed up moving squads
but yeah, i made the observation to myself today that there didnt seem to be any 40kesques that were particularily "good" in my eyes
teal cloud
I guess it's not a super populated/contested space. 40k dominates the space and...
Did it work better back in 2e when a 2k point game was like, 15 marines and a predator?
autumn sun
Oh absolutely not lmao, games of 2e took forever.
fallen rune
Moving the models was faster for sure but 2e also had World of Tanks style vehicle damage
autumn sun
Yup.
Each vehicle has separate rules--whole datacards basically, that'd dictate how it moved, shot, took damage and the results of damage, etc.
Now imagine this damage table for every vehicle and that yes, you had to roll on that every time it got shot at.
To say nothing of actual weapon tables.
tepid steeple
individual movement was more important before coherency was a thing
but like
that didnt make it good necessarily
autumn sun
Yeah. It was Fine™️ when it was low-points games since you'd have a squad or two and probably a single vehicle but once it got into multiple vehicle territory and 3+ squads it was a nightmare.
compact leaf
Forgot to post these
Uhh
K2 is big flashbot?
(right and truly that is the cheapest NWI I've ever seen)
velvet badge
Immunity arm? I assume it's referring to AP?
sleek trail
no
immunity ARM is like
any special ARM targeting attacks count as just normal ammo
so t2, AP
fire
velvet badge
But anything of with the same special rules targeting BTS wouldn't be affected?
tepid steeple
mm
sleek trail
But anything of with the same special rules targeting BTS wouldn't be affected?
presumably not
trail fulcrum
echo marten
Oh, this guy looks like An Asshole. Pity he's Steel Phalanx.
next pilot
conquest: spire?
trail fulcrum
Yeee
sudden halo
I bet that means theyre getting closer to opening new edition play testing up.
compact leaf
Profiles for ninja and flying thing
Redeyes are particularly scary looking
echo marten
Do we know what Jet Propulsion is yet?
trail fulcrum
compact leaf
Do we know what Jet Propulsion is yet?
It's sorta like normal super jump but you can freely move however you want in the air?