Indie+Alternative Wargaming

[sand bobcat]

Almost action figures at that point. 😩

[sudden halo]

I couldn't do 40mm. I'd never get anything done.

The bigger the models are the more I feel like I need to paint them to display quality.

[sand sonnet]

Yeah there are a lot of people painting them very nicely, but I've seen just as many slap contrasts on em and say good enough.

If it helps you'd only have to paint like 8 models.

[sleek trail]

Infinity is best when its doing cool cyberpunk cultural references and not combat heels

[sudden halo]

Bakunin having combat heels would have been cool if everyone else didn't have them. Like it was kind of their thing in lore but that stops really working when it's the rule instead of the exception, like Pennywen said, it feels gazy instead of femme and punk.

[sleek trail]

Id like it on grrrls in that case but not observancy

Also i think grrrls power armor is too horny but it would be fully fixed if they molded t shirts onto them that you could then freehand into band tees

[sudden halo]

That would be a fun conversion, I might try it if I find some to mix n match. Observancy's weird Christian feminism cult thing screams battle heels to me tbh, but more like the reverend healer in the Icestorm box than the old Moiras which were super terrible.

I guess my aesthetic sense finds a distinction between sexy and horny in a different spot than a lot of people, as I get older and my transition continues I feel more and more like why not have everyone be sexy all the time, at least the little army people I spend hours painting

[sleek trail]

Im a slave to tacticool and battle heels are firmly not it to me

It doesnt even really feel sexy cause i think in minis "sexy" often comes more from pose and often the poses of battle heeled minis are them doing just. Battle stuff

All that said im now actually very curious about the history of female soldier models in miniature lines

Cause from what i understand infinity's predilection for cheesecake did mean it was including women from the start, or close to it

[sudden halo]

My experience was other than sisters in 40k there were almost none until the mid 2000s.

Occasionally some chainmail bikini level models for DnD, super rarely anything that was reasonable.

[sleek trail]

(honestly despite many problematic elements infinity has a remarkable track record of inclusion. Its one of the only pieces of media ive seen that has a middle eastern (or middle eastern coded) faction that isnt portrayed as terrorists or savages, in the mid 2000s)

That meant a lot to me!

(Not enough to play them tho)

[fallen rune]

Battletech was I think sort of an exception

[orchid leaf]

yeah you have some stuff in WHFB for like high elves IWRC that

[sleek trail]

Also sikhs get representation, theres i think a uyghur character, theres at least one trans character

Infinity is weird

[orchid leaf]

That's not bad but like that's a small amount of there femm moddles

[sudden halo]

That said a lot of my minis experience in the 90s was via my dad's historicals, and historical warfare isn't exactly known for large amounts of women on the battlefield.

Speaking broadly, lots of known exceptions.

[sleek trail]

I do think a big reason infinity was empowered to have women in it was cause of its modern-warfare inspired near future

[sudden halo]

Battletech had a ton of women in art and woman characters but not many woman models. Mostly cause the models were mechs.

[fallen rune]

Yeah hence the kind of

[sleek trail]

Put giant tits on the chicken walker

[fallen rune]

Present narratively but every model is a mech or like 4mm infantry

[sleek trail]

Half points

[orchid leaf]

I mean the Dragon dose kinda look like it's wearing a push-up bra

Gecko, Pope Auteur I ↩️

[Reply to:](#1161730220164911187 message) Put giant tits on the chicken walker

[sudden halo]

I mean the Battletech novels had plenty of she breasted boobily type writing. Not all of them but it was genre fiction of the era. Also lots of Asian rep but really bad racist stereotypes until much later. Modern BT lore is way nicer but it's saddled with everything that came before it.

BT could use a reboot, make the weapons somewhat sensicle, fix the lore up. Modernize some old designs but keep some of the cassette futurism stuff.

[orchid leaf]

It had one! AoD and it's related stuff but that's the second most unpopulare time period IWRC

[sleek trail]

I think it is worth examining and understanding the inclusion of marginalized and minority stuff in games, esp awkward stuff

Like infinity is in many ways Orientalism: the minitures game but its orientalism is interesting cause it also includes the middle east

[sudden halo]

I agree. I think the big thing with infinity is that almost every unit is mixed gender, even going back to the very beginning, which is really nice representation wise compared to "here's the girl faction" or "here's the token girl unit/hero" a la 40k

[sleek trail]

Yeah. It feels like its the settings normal

[sudden halo]

It really does lean into being a pool of stereotypes, but it's pretty equal opportunity. Ariadna is such a weird pool of cold war era military mythology + Scots lead by the reincarnation of William Wallace.

Everyone is some type of caricature of surface level stereotypes, with depth only coming way later when they started moving the lore forward.

[weary cradle]

so classic orientalism: the game then

[sleek trail]

Its funny cause you can vaguely see a crusades era thing going on with catholic world, big powerful china, and islamic golden age and then you have cold war planet

Where everyone in the cold war fights werewolves

[tepid steeple]

I think infinity is also like

[sleek trail]

And spaceship anarchists/unionists/capitalists

[tepid steeple]

quite self-awarely silly

[sleek trail]

I think it has what i call "metal gear tone"

Where its really fucking stupid but it takes itself seriously while knowing its stupid

[sudden halo]

You don't straight rip all your heros names from historical figures and anime references and expect your setting to be taken terribly seriously.

[tepid steeple]

from what I remember of watching one of the operation tutorials narrative segments its like everyone is ridiculous

[sleek trail]

Its a really wonderful mess of a game. I love it to bits.

[sudden halo]

You can play Saber from Fate oops I mean Joan of Arc the future clone. There's minis of the major and batou from gits.

[sleek trail]

Every faction has off brand tachikomas

[sudden halo]

If anything I think the alien faction is kind of the weird odd one out because they're not some type of goofy parody of something. They're kind of like the Covenant from Halo played straight

[sleek trail]

They should have kept the meteor drop tag

[sudden halo]

its coming back

[sleek trail]

Really? Ive been out of it too long

[sudden halo]

the new design is pretty cool

[sand bobcat]

ye olde kaskuda

i have one of the old exrah minis 😌

If the Trooper enters Unconscious State, they automatically pass directly to Dead State, without suffering the loss of an extra Wounds/STR point, and are removed from play.
lol they should have given the tag this

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/84/c7/9a/84c79aa9188498e92246b15fc133f1d1.jpg mine's orange

[sleek trail]

Opposite of nwi

God nwi is such a goofy rule

I love it

[sand bobcat]

always hated how it always comes with shock immune

just give them 2 wounds then :v

[sleek trail]

Its so they cant be doctored i think

But its such a weird meta

[weary cradle]

what if i just added go to my skirmish game

[next pilot]

I find the combined army to feel out of place in infinity

[sand bobcat]

they're the only visually interesting faction 😤

[sudden halo]

All infinity models are a bit busy, but the CA ones make it hard for me to tell what I'm looking at so they just seem kind of like a blob of generic aliens, and aliens don't super fit with the feel of the setting overall to me.

A few more contiguous flat surfaces would do them some good I think. I've also not seen them in person, just in like store pics so it could change my mind if I did.

[sand bobcat]

https://i.imgur.com/wTfKHfI.jpg

i knew even less about colour theory back then.

[sudden halo]

that's a very protoss looking paint scheme.

but I see what you mean, any two of the three main colors could work together but probably not all three. They are good looking models though. I love Angel Giraldez's painting style but its not doing the CA models any favors in terms of readability in the studio paint job.

[native portal]

Without hating on infinity, not a lot of the sculpts really capture my imagination

It's rare I see a unit and go 'oh fuck that's a cool idea'

[sleek trail]

I tend to have that more on the statline side for infinity

Except the szalamandra

The best unit in any game ever

[sudden halo]

I'm a huge fan of the Iguana, shame it's kinda wimpy in game.

[sleek trail]

Iguana also rules. The fact they stopped giving tags tails fills me with anger

[sudden halo]

It's always just been nomads, and only a few of those.

[sleek trail]

No i know but the new mads tags dont have tails

[sudden halo]

What are the newest ones? Gator, gecko and the observance one? Both the animal ones should have tails for sure.

Hopefully they rerelease the lizard and it has a dope tail

[sleek trail]

Yeah the stigmata is rad

[sudden halo]

It's a hacker and hack resistant and a tag!

Oh I just saw they have a new Fiddler model in the upcoming releases. I missed the first one so I'm excited to get a canon named trans character for my nomads.

[sleek trail]

Fiddler rules

[sudden halo]

Really trying to push my anime painting style to the next level. Definitely kind of sloppy and messy here but I think I'm on the right track.

[sand bobcat]

that is extremely cool.

[flat crow]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-i95IABpaSs&ab_channel=TabletopSkirmishGames

[sleek trail]

https://youtu.be/3GjG26-Tqv8?si=YoHe8n_tm9y-EBiW

[sleek trail]

https://store.steampowered.com/app/1498550/The_Hexadome_Aristeia_Showdown/

Steam

The Hexadome: Aristeia Showdown

Compete against other players in 1v1 turn-based tactics matches. Score points by gaining control of zones in the arena—slaying the immortal champions is not a mandatory strategy!Over the course of seasons and events, climb the ladder to become the ultimate tactician and sit on top of the leaderboard!Form your team of champions from a roster of v...

Release Date

2024

A! is getting a video game

figured id mention it here

[deep mirage]

Gaslands is cool. I wish it worked online in a comfortable way

[sleek trail]

i kinda love that it doesnt, in a weird way

like id probably have had a chance to play if it did

but its such a real like. tabletop game

in that sense

[deep mirage]

I can understand that too

Ye

I have a bunch of bitsmashed cars

I'll have to grab pics sometime

[sudden halo]

potentially pretty exciting. hopefully gets better support than the Warhammer Underworlds game that was in kind of the same space

if they do it could go somewhere

i haven't played Aristeia so I don't know if its any good at a baseline level tho

[sleek trail]

I havent either but a lot of ppl really like ot

[sand bobcat]

https://i.imgur.com/wPIQ4X3.jpg okay, looking pretty good.

[sudden halo]

looking slick!

[spring geyser]

Okay I have some meatier info on my planned factions:

• The Elysian Commonwealth, officially styled as the Commonwealth of Elysia and Incorporated Stars (CEIS), represented military by the Commonwealth Common Guard; Astropolitically, it's a colonial enterprise of the hegemonic Elysians, and consists of their various subject states, direct colonies, and outposts. It has held hegemonic dominance over the cluster for approximately 300 years, largely on the basis of industrial might, technological dominance, and an enormous population (which are heavily incentivized to service in the Guard by the promise of social advancement in the Commonwealth's very inflexible, neo-feudal social hierarchy); it's been undergoing stagnation for the past century or so, as its militaries became infested with nepotism, corruption, and a failure to adapt to changing circumstances beyond "directly upgrading existing tech", a failing that came home to roost with its humiliating defeat in the Kitezh War at the hands of OSDEF (more on them in a moment). Now it's listlessly grappling to remain in control as more and more actors realize it might very well be a paper tiger, hollowed out by its own corruption.
• The Oponskoye Systems Directorate, an up-and-coming power in the cluster, militarily represented by the Oponskoye Systems Directorate Expeditionary Forces (OSDEF). An up-and-coming power that is astropolitically motivated less by direct control and more by establishing interstellar transit infrastructure they control to manage interstellar trade and hindering possible threats to them (like the CEIS, which kind of started the conflict with them). While everyone in the setting is transhuman to some extent, the CEIS are somewhat conservative about it, deeming significant variance from the human form a sign of poverty, antisociality, and/or potential criminality; the OSD is basically the opposite in this respect, being explicitly ideologically driven by "furthering humanity's evolution."

In terms of mechanical distinctions I have planned:

• CCG have lots of big scary armored vehicles that are not very subtle (including having ugly RCSes); overrely on high-power transmitters for sensors and comms instead of more sensitive receivers; generally have poor morale across the board (due to being largely externally motivated to be there); have bloated and inflexible command structures that are vulnerable to disruption; have generally superior point defense due to much more effectively militarizing phased array lasers
• OSDEF mostly don't have good heavy armor compared to CCG; have lots of multirole units (stuff like modular AFVs and hybrid artillery/engineering legged vehicles); use lots of particle beams; favor stealthy designs and sensitive receivers over big transmitters; have flexible command structures; and have to rely more on detecting threats beforehand than responding to them as needed, due to mostly using traditional turreted lasers for PD; have some very nice posthuman infantry that is super hard to kill; can occasionally just say "lol no" to morale effects due to widespread use of stuff like autoinjectors for sedatives and stimulants to modulate soldiers' moods

Also when I mention OSDEF's modular AFVs, I mean I plan to give them a special rule where you don't have to choose the variant until it deploys

[sleek trail]

How many factions are you planning?

[spring geyser]

Limiting myself to just these two for initial beta stuff

[spring geyser]

You know, I'm also kind of thinking of making a skirmish wargame in the same universe, since it would let me focus more on the particulars of "astronaut warfare" while probably having a wider appeal

[twin mountain]

Omg this is awesome

[spring geyser]

Actually yes the more that I think about the cooler "skirmish wargame set in the Daylight Stars universe that emphasizes the particulars of waging battle in hostile explanatory environments" sounds aaaaa

[sand bobcat]

It's certainly easier to make a skirmish game because you can do literally anything and people will play it if it works and they like the setting.

[sleek trail]

People love xcom

I need to take a day and just work on game

I know how a turn works, i know vaguely how i want to do units

I need to read zona alfa

Anyone played it

[spring geyser]

Yeah, I'm gonna give some thought to the skirmish scale idea, and then maybe make that before I finish the company scale one

[sleek trail]

Im curious what ewar would look like on the skirmish scale

Because its such a macro concept to me

[spring geyser]

I'd be moving away from the ewar stuff at that scale except as part of the off-map support game

In favor of getting more granular with e.g. pressurized spaces inside buildings and unpressurized outside, decompression stuff, really emphasizing the ways laser weapons are different from guns, etc.

[fallen rune]

Ok that does sound neat

[spring geyser]

like being able to shoot lasers through (reinforced) glass without breaking it

[sand bobcat]

If you wanna focus on weapon dynamics like that, it might actually be a great opportunity to make a 2D grid-based game with a lot of textual rules and like, no rangebands.

[spring geyser]

yeah part of my idea for the skirmish scale version was "just don't give weapons listed ranges, their ranges are longer than the battlefield"

[sand bobcat]

Gecko mentioned XCOM and I'm definitely imagining a super-"terrain"-dense game that is not a pain in the ass to play because the terrain itself is just a pre-drawn board.

[spring geyser]

grids are nice but do have the inherent problem of compatibility

i was probably going to go gridless but still use 2D LoS and strictly define how terrain behaves

[sleek trail]

Will you have elevation

[spring geyser]

yes

[sleek trail]

Gotta have elevation in a skirmish game imo

People love. Towers

[spring geyser]

yeah lmao
this also gives me a chance to focus on how wacky the infantry guns used in my setting actually are (pulse lasers, coilguns, gyrojets, barely any basic chemically propelled firearms)

[fallen rune]

I like this a lot for Kill Team

Where stuff is mostly either melee range, 6" range, or unlimited range

[sleek trail]

I also really like it

For skirmish it just makes sense imo

Though to preserve some positioning elements id like rangebands

[fallen rune]

There's a ton of positioning in infinite range games

Especially one like this with adverse environments

[sleek trail]

No im not saying its not there

Even in kill team it matters

I just like rangebands a lot

And i think it has some really compelling dynamics in terms of spacing and how to counter some unit type

[sudden halo]

If you're doing a skirmish game on a full wargame size table, like Infinity on a 4'x4', I totally agree.

[spring geyser]

the plan was full table

there might be a long range where guys have trouble hitting stuff but that would be a deficit of ability to aim the gun

[sudden halo]

But for smaller ones, more board game size stuff or kill team sized, unlimited range without range bands is better imo. Just not enough space for it to feel right.

[sleek trail]

I agree

Kt probably wouldnt be fun with rangebands

Too much measuring

[native portal]

It's suki here again with 'No End In Sight does infinite range and it kicks ass'

[spring geyser]

no end in sight does kick ass

[native portal]

positioning and movement becomes awesome

[spring geyser]

im going to be stealing a lot from no end in sight

[sudden halo]

Makes sense. One important factor in engagement distances and accuracy modifiers in wargames that normally isnt on the conversation is how much time a turn is supposed to be.

[native portal]

wacky infantry guns sounds cool though

[sudden halo]

If a turn is 5 minutes then the range bands where you're likely to cause a casualty are way longer than if a turn is 30 seconds. And same in turn for if a turn is 30 seconds compared to a turn being like a DnD round and being 6 seconds. Howany shots does an attack represent? How much time on target? You don't have to be super precise but you should probably have broad internal answers to those questions to help dial in the feel of certain mechanics.

[sleek trail]

With Untitled Vehicle Including Skirmish Game im probably using infinite range with rangebands, and i also decided that ballistic skill doesnt matter cause someone being a better or worse shot i think is less interesting than if they can set up a shot thats good

[spring geyser]

my intention was to make it very hard to actually hit someone if they're in cover and aware

[sleek trail]

(though also i have aros so if you miss a clean shot you get shot, de facto)

[native portal]

Fun named turn time: A turn in Fistful of Tows is ~15 minutes

[spring geyser]

you can suppress them tho, and there's a very slight chance you can hit them

[sleek trail]

Damn

Big number

[native portal]

It's a company/battalion level game so it can get away with it

[sand bobcat]

ermmmm but how does it do melee attacks

[native portal]

Any time units get closer than 1 inch/100m, you resolve close combat until units retreat or are destroyed

because time wise that happens very quickly

This also includes point blank attacks on armour

[sleek trail]

Huh

[sudden halo]

Makes sense. That's pretty common in larger scale games like that. At least ones in modern eras.

[native portal]

Like so

british infantry platoons pushing in against german skirmishers

[sleek trail]

I like that close combat paradigm

[spring geyser]

yeah it's a common way to do close combat in company scale afaik

[sleek trail]

Esp cause shit cant end turn in close combat and thus be tied up

Close combat going over multiple turns kinda bugs me cause it always feels so static

[sand bobcat]

(germishers)

[native portal]

Okay, so, here is the jankiest rule that I like in Fistful of Tows, not trying to derail

when you call in air support, you draw a line on the table and everything on the line is a potential target that gets resolved

You have 60 IRL seconds to do this

[spring geyser]

lmao

[native portal]

to represent a) how little info you can really convey to air forces and b) to stop people trying to game lines for max damage

and c) because FFoT is massively concerned with speed, to the extent that there is an optional but highly dev pushed turn timer

[sleek trail]

That rules

Actually

Thats a real tabletop-y mechanic

[native portal]

Oh wait

lmao it's better than I remember

it's ten seconds

[sand bobcat]

good.

[spring geyser]

lmfao

[native portal]

I love that it stresses 'maximum'

like that's slow

[sleek trail]

You can get a lot done in 10 seconds!

[spring geyser]

also
i get to emphasize that infantry squads in Daylight Stars are like, half drones

[sand bobcat]

how do you like, ensure that people aren't starting the timer "late"?

[native portal]

Play with people who aren't assholes

but it's not a super competitive game, it's scenario based usually

Also love games with footnotes

or designer notes

[native portal]

How are you doing that? Sounds cool

[sleek trail]

Are the skirmishes going to be regular infantry vs regular infantry or special operations

[spring geyser]

i need to think about the exact gameplay realization of that, but in terms of flavor/fluff, it's because the main reason you put humans on a battlefield in the first place is because AI systems don't adapt to changing circumstances well and need human handlers

[sleek trail]

Huh. One of my factions im planning has the same gimmick

To justify officers you can shoot dead

[spring geyser]

so an infantry squad has lots of scout drones and gun drones and suicide drones

[sleek trail]

(cause bots is tougher, see)

[sleek trail]

Ah yes. T'au

[spring geyser]

well the gun drones are mostly on legs

[sleek trail]

How many lwgs

[spring geyser]

four

[sleek trail]

Yey quadrupeds

[sand bobcat]

😌

[sleek trail]

thought: infinity has a large board because units can traverse the board quickly, due to moving multiple times in a round due to orders

[spring geyser]

i think i might have it so (human) figures have to spend action points or something to direct drones to do stuff

[sleek trail]

Problem: if i want to have a board as large as infinity, without an orders system, i need a way to move stuff up

[sand bobcat]

if every model can move 12 inches a round you'd be more than fine.

[spring geyser]

could use a deployment system like chain of command where stuff deploys real close in to the enemy

[sleek trail]

two solutions i may use in tandem:

1. every army already has a car. make people ride in the car and then exit later on

2. units in the backline can have some resource spent on them to donate their activation to an already activated unit

this could also lead to interesting deployment sequences

depending on unit type

also, i really like units that cant do anything useful being able to be disregarded in favor of units that can

[sleek trail]

i think this just raises the question of why should the board be so big, then

[spring geyser]

i really like the idea of getting out of the car

[spring geyser]

it's more complicated than that

it's really hard to explain

[sleek trail]

yeah my thought is on the first turn a bunch of stuff starts in the car and then on its turn gets launched out and does its turns

like an action dismount

maybe even get placed a few inches away from the car to start to represent using momentum to leap off

and that means backline units can go first to get the car moved forward enough to justify dropping guys off

[sand bobcat]

4x4 isn't big, GW just decided to make their standard board size SLIGHTLY smaller and the entire industry shifted to accommodate them overnight. 😔

[autumn sun]

GW made their board size smaller on account of enough people finally complaining loud enough about it.

[sand bobcat]

that's definitely why it matches multiples of their shipping box size.

[autumn sun]

Most people don't have space for a 6x4 table, whereas the average dining room table is like...4x3.

[sleek trail]

its not that big but if your standard action is 4"+Shoot you only move ~8% of the board length if going straight

which can slow a game down

[spring geyser]

if you're doing big board you should do 6" move

[sleek trail]

6 feels long to me but that might just be infinity in my brain

if 6 is standard though fast has to be 8 and "bike" has to be 12

which might work tbh

[sand bobcat]

don't forget that you can also have different actions where things move faster.

[sleek trail]

i mean im basically stealing infinity's action structure at this point

2 actions everything resolves at the end

so move-move is going to be a thing. probably

i like multiple actions per turn a lot, instead of each set of actions being tied to like. a grouped order

idk how to describe it

like how turnip or warhammer does it

i guess

[native portal]

I'm learning that 40k no longer plays on 6x4?

wild

(also if you ever do combined arms, move speeds are a great way to show just how good vehicles are- Infantry in FFoT move 4" and vehicles move from 8-16")

[trail fulcrum]

44x60

[sleek trail]

So 3.6x5?

Thats awkward.

[sand bobcat]

it's got something to do with their box sizes. I guess they're 44 x 30 inside, so the intent is you put together 44x30 map sheets, basically

x30 for a small game, x60 for the standard/"classic" format, x90 for a huge game

[sudden halo]

They fold up to 11x7.5, which is conveniently Letter Paper sized and I imagine the most commonly available box size/fits on the most shelves.

Started with 2019 kill team where a 22x30 board sort of made sense along with that retail store compatibility potential, but then they started having the KT boards and terrain do double duty for 40k, and then they made the standard sizes all multiples of that size.

[left onyx]

Letter is 8.5x11 but yeah you can it occurs to me that you can trim A0 to 30x44 with relatively little waste whereas 30x48 would be larger than A0

[sand bobcat]

44x60 is bigger than 4x4, which a lot of other established games work with, so I wouldn't really hate it i think

[tepid steeple]

slightly different aspect ratio too

[sudden halo]

Yeah, not that it is letter but that it fits within containers sized for letter paper, which also happens to be pretty close to the standard size of most of their rulebooks.

[sand bobcat]

though it's annoying to think about stuff like 6x4 games inevitably getting squeezed by What's Available

[sudden halo]

44x30 is a weird size but works on a lot of home tables, 48x32 would have been better though imo.

With 44x60 you somehow really do miss the 4 inches on one aspect when comparing to 4x4, but it's not too bad.

I really like the 22x30 size, though very few wargames can accommodate a board that small. It's a great play anywhere size.

[sand bobcat]

22x30 annoys me mostly because i really hate giant model games and ranges are even more hilarious at that point

but despite it being so much less work, people pointedly don't want to paint smaller models

[sleek trail]

Warhammer scale games are supposed to have the longer aspect ratio, imo

[tepid steeple]

22x30 and 44x30 I really like

[sleek trail]

Gives you some neat angles

[tepid steeple]

for games that don't require a huge table

[sleek trail]

I like squares for skirmish, more

[sudden halo]

It's a shame. I guess it's not intuitive how much easier small models are to work with.

[sand bobcat]

you love your contrast paints??? put 'em on smaller models and marvel

agh please join me in playing more practical games, you jerks

[sudden halo]

The small sizes work well for fantasy skirmish, which is also how I frame 40k in my head, since it tends to exist with fantasy assumptions. 22x30 would be cool for 15mm skirmish or 6mm wargames.

[native portal]

I love small scales

15mm skirmish is neat though

[sleek trail]

Itty bitty skirmish committee

[native portal]

Some legend has been playing SAGA (a 28mm skirmish dark ages game) in 6mm

With each 28mm model replaced by a base

https://brushandboltgun.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/20180224_113302.jpg

compared to ^

[hollow crypt]

that's extremely excellent lol

[sleek trail]

That rules

I wonder if you could pull the same trick with turnip

[native portal]

You could, I'm sure

as long as basing remains consistant, you can do all kinds of funky shit to wargame rules

I did the same digitally with Sharp Practice, a 28mm napoleonic skirmish game

Turns a skirmish game into this

[sand bobcat]

😌

[sleek trail]

many guys

[spring geyser]

I said I was going to be de-emphasizing EW in the skirmish game but it's still gonna play a role, just only comms stuff really

[sand bobcat]

https://i.imgur.com/YEKXh9o.jpg some early progress on Guy 2

[sand bobcat]

40mm bases 😎

[sand bobcat]

i'm getting pretty happy with my ability to make things look vaguely dirty while still being Vibrant

sometimes it comes out wrong (the blue on those big shoulders is kind of crap) but overall it's pretty sick

[spring geyser]

Fun idea for my skirmish wargame:

• When throwing a grenade, instead of resolving it as an explosion immeidately, put a "grenade marker" where it lands
• every time a unit activates, if there are any grenade markers on the board, roll a d6 for that marker; if it shows a 1, the grenade explodes

maybe have the roll it goes off on be 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 on subsequent activations

units can potentially throw the grenade back or kick it away

[spring geyser]

also "morale (or cohesion or smth) check to throw yourself on the grenade"

[sand bobcat]

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/0aAZ8KciMOU?feature=share i love following this guy who plays wargames with his wife

i'm reluctant to call "clone of a GW game" "indie and alternative", but he does a lot of 15mm games

[sleek trail]

It exists in a weird middle ground

I guess its technically the most alternative game out there, if your reference point is the warhammers

"Dont like warhammer? Heres the alternative!"

[tepid steeple]

don't like warhammer? play warcry with squads!

[sudden halo]

Id definitely call it indie and alternative as a game, but not as a theme if that makes any sense.

[sleek trail]

Its a parasite (non derogatory) off of warhammers theme

[calm mantle]

Isn't it more a thing which is like a parasite but good (can't remember the word)

As if it doesn't have its own model line, it gives people more reason to buy GW plastic.

[sleek trail]

people think symbionts are parasites but good but parasites are technically symbionts

if i, as someone who was not a biologist but a habitual wikipedia binge-er were to name it, its commensalistic

Commensalism is a long-term biological interaction (symbiosis) in which members of one species gain benefits while those of the other species neither benefit nor are harmed

like idk if the relationship is two way enough for it to be mutualistic

nor if it even fundamentally makes sense to apply biological classifications to games

but im doing it anyways

[sudden halo]

I think of OPR stuff as a stepping stone out of the GW bubble, the way Pathfinder kind of is from DnD.

"you can use all your stuff! its pretty familiar, just we don't have to deal with GW/WotC's bullshit"

[tepid steeple]

opr does do models

[sudden halo]

but there's also bespoke content, and then looking at that sort of starts the "wonder what other cool stuff is out there"

[sleek trail]

stls, though

[sudden halo]

and then people either go back to the envelope or become fans of a lot of other things and kind of jaded about how much their hobbies are dominated by one game

[sleek trail]

and they still mooch off of warhammer aesthetics, to the point id argue that they are just within the normal "3dprint warhammer proxies" market

[tepid steeple]

that's fair yeah

branded proxies

[sudden halo]

They have a few of their own armies, but they're designed to live in that same ecosystem.

[native portal]

If you go even further you end up in bolt action or hail caesar

Aka historicals written by old GW crew

Which play in a very familiar way

[sudden halo]

Flames of war rules wise stays in that realm. I guess Dropfleet when compared to BFG fits that mold.

[sleek trail]

taxonomy of wargaming rules based on proximity to warhammer

[sudden halo]

i mean, not the worst idea

warhammer descendants, WRG Ancients descendents, DnD/chainmail descendents, ASL descendents?

[sleek trail]

asl?

oh

what was it called again

advanced squad leader

yes

[sudden halo]

yeah

[sleek trail]

anyways yeah, except also acknowledging theres often meeting points

and weirdos

like, what does x wing decend from?

[sudden halo]

the system has a name, i forget what it is, but it descends from Wings of Glory/Wings of War.

[sleek trail]

interesting

i like doing taxonomies cause it also helps understand where the industry can go from where it is

nihil novi sub sole

but also theres infinite room to expand and change stuff

[sudden halo]

the Flightpath System is the FFG one, I guess wings of glory was its own thing then when FFG got the rights they made that system and published xwing, attack wing, and the dnd dragon one with it

[sleek trail]

sounds right

anyways is maleghast a dnd decendant

[sudden halo]

I'd say so.

Couple subbranches down for sure though.

Where's infinity? It doesn't fit neatly into any of the proposed categories

but to be fair, depending on what all we try to classify we're certainly missing some. broadly RPGs get dnd, traveller, and fighting fantasy? with crossover with wargames on dnd/chainmail and kriegspiel

[sleek trail]

indeed

[sleek trail]

good ol infinity

defying categorization since 2008

[native portal]

I have a half built sci fi hack of flames of war

It's not the worst system ever

Even if it has questionable historical balance choices

[sleek trail]

i dont think theres anything wrong with something thats like

pseudo-historical in form

[native portal]

Perpetuation of historical stereotypes is Bad, Actually

But yeah its not The Worst

[sleek trail]

i meant in terms of design

like bolt actions "definitely-not-warhammer" style

instead of actually trying to represent

conflict

accurately

In terms of like. depiction? thats fucked up

But yeah, in terms of pseudo-historical kinds of mechanical representations, the kind of "ranges translate to actual real life battles being impossible" sort of deal, thats technically fine if perhaps better served by just making fantastic games

[native portal]

Oh yeah for sure

[sand sonnet]

Warmachine is kinda its own branch as well.

There’s almost a branch for “mechanics moving away from traditional wargames”

Which is where Infinity, Warmachine, Malifaux and a few others all sit?

[sleek trail]

2000s esoterics

[sand sonnet]

Which is now getting its own sub branches as it’s matured.

Things like Shatterpoint and MCP and Moonstone and the like.

[sudden halo]

warmachine is sort of an application of RPG combat mechanics to tabletop games. You basically roll 2d6+bonus to beat AC.

which makes some sense, given that Iron Kingdoms started as a d20 system setting in the dnd 3.x days

[sand sonnet]

Yeah, it’s more unique for it’s resource systems and “combo” style list building.

[sudden halo]

It fits in the "activation order puzzle" style of game

I solve your puzzle and set up my own, and vice versa every turn.

I played Cygnar assassination lists mostly so I really liked the spacial puzzle elements

but in the end Warmachine has more in common with Hearthstone than it does a lot of other wargames.

at least in terms of how you make decisions

[sand bobcat]

oh are the nazis the space marines of bolt action

or the cuss toads (custodes) in the modern "space marines were so popular we made more subfactions of specifically them" environment

[sand bobcat]

something i'm currently wondering is if there's room for a game with almost arbitrarily long movement ranges

infinity is kind of like that, but I'm thinking more explicitly "this is how movement works" instead of "movement is part of stacking 400 activations on one guy"

[sleek trail]

Something im experimenting with in my game is every activation also has the car move somewhat, which is probably closer to infinity but still means the car can move as far as you have activations per turn

I think its interesting if one unit can move way more than others

I think arbitrarily long amounts of movement would be interesting with other restrictoons

Like straight lines only

[sand bobcat]

i've got an old armored-core-like project that I might glue card mechanics to

i forgot to mention, critically, that I was thinking of using them to help work with extremely long movement ranges

[native portal]

Just lots of little things in different games

Flames of War has lots and LOTS of arguments over the two core stats

Cos when you're modeling specific units at specific times, decisions like 'All SS units are Veteran' are uhh

(FoW has two stats: Motivation and Skill, and no one is happy with where any unit is placed on that)

add in national and theatre special rules and

[sand bobcat]

oh.

[native portal]

flames of war pls stop

you do not have to write all the historical sections in character

in fact I am begging you not to

[sand bobcat]

love all of this historical flavour mmmmm

manner, as you may have noticed, our superior german rifles still have a maximum range of 150 metres

rest assured that someone lovingly detailed the SS logo on my helmet sculpt

i almost feel like historicals have an obligation to be somewhat realistic, or at least to be more realistic in mechanics than they are stylized in presentation

like it's deeply wrong to write Flavour Sections in the same style as your Cool Fictional Guys. for like. what. immersion??

[next pilot]

...what's going on here?

[native portal]

I'm being a grog and complaining about historical wargaming perpetuating historical stereotypes/myths/base level analysis of armies

mixed with Flames of War doing In-Character sections for everyone, which means they have one for the fucking nazis

[next pilot]

ah

[fallen rune]

I think one of the tricky things with the German army in WW2 in wargames is that a lot of their shortcomings (generally poor logistics and preparation for major operations, poor intel, ideological blindspots) don't get modeled that much in a wargame usually

While it would be accurate there's not a lot of war games which have a like "roll a D6 for every unit, on a 1 they do not show up in the battle at all - they ran out of gas, got lost, or got taken out of your command by someone else" as an army rule

Which leaves what could be historically accurate (I don't know FoW well enough to say) depiction kind of Wehraboo-y because the parts of them that didn't suck for various reasons were generally among the most tactically capable armies in the ETO

[sand bobcat]

intel wouldn't be impossible, though you'd need command cards or wahtever

[fallen rune]

Yeah that'd be a lot easier

[prime gate]

rolled movement
scatter dice maybe
weird reinforcement rules
jyst generally being more expensive in listbuilding too

[sudden halo]

easiest to me would be encouraging campaign play and having those mechanics at the campaign layer.

but historical battles with balanced forces on a relatively neutral map just... feels wrong to me. part of why FoW/Bolt Action et all don't really grab me

balanced wargames are definitely in the war-as-sport kind of category, and that feels a lot better if we're in fictional settings, or at least what-if alt histories where armies from vastly different locations and time periods fight like in a lot of ancients rulesets.

if we're keeping it largely in theater, representing a specific kind of war, I much prefer if its built around the campaign or specific scenarios, rather than "tournament style" play

[sleek trail]

I think in campaign though im much less comfortable like

Running it in any way that historically monstrous forces win

I think it just becomes reenactment to a certain degree. Idk. Theres value in that, or even playing historical monsters (a fair arguement to be made all armies are monstrous to some degree)

[left onyx]

If it helps, it makes me imagine a game where the fluff is all written by other factions and some pieces are the fashies saying things like "... but it is no match for our [unit that actually does terrible against it]"

[sleek trail]

This would rule

Often youll get one factions perspective on all factions

Which i think is done because it gives a coherent voice

And occasionally in that youll get shades

But a whole book of that would rule

[left onyx]

Where you can really fuck up though is when you have a mix of single faction voice and objective voice, which just straight away muddles that faction into looking objective even when not

[sudden halo]

I think we're on similar pages. At a certain point I think it should be more about understanding the history and why the people of the time made the choices they did. A good historical wargame should often end up producing the same results as history, and, barring some of the major historical blunders of all time, should lead to successful strategies used at the time to remain successful.

Definitely becomes less of a just for fun space, more of a tool. Not the most useful for most people, were generally not scholars or military strategists. For me it could be useful in service of writing more realistic situations, motivations, and decision making in my creative projects and game design by understanding history and historical context better.

[sleek trail]

Yeah

[sand bobcat]

Anyone here play Malifaux on TTS? I'm strongly considering sketching up a card-based wargame and I figure it's important that I see what "the very good game that uses cards instead of dice" has already done.

[sleek trail]

id be willing to learn

but ive never played malifaux

[sand bobcat]

i also don't like...intend to pick the game up, so it's probably for the best that I either watch a youtube video or just listen for a ping when someone plays it on TTS in VC

[sleek trail]

from games ive watched its pretty straightforward

cardswise

[native portal]

Unfortunately the aesthetic of malifaux never really captured me so I don't know how it works

[sudden halo]

I've played it like 2 times? a long time ago. I liked it plenty but I don't love cards compared to dice (though Malifaux's implementation is good)

I bought a team for it, assembled them, and they've been on a shelf ever since.

[sleek trail]

cards give a western vibe i think really fits malifaux but i like rolling dice

more kinetic

i need stuff to fidget with though so not really a critique that extrapolates

[sudden halo]

The main thing is with dice each interaction is unique in terms of probability, where with cards previous interactions affect the odds on later ones. It's a pretty elegant way of building in some rubber banding to a game

[sleek trail]

i once had the idea of a game that used tarot decks and each faction had a specific set of cards mixed into their deck

i never got past that idea

but i think its neat

i think it was like a wargame version of magic the gathering in my head, wizard duel with a lot of summons

[sand bobcat]

maybe what I want is just the cards for quick hidden-information mechanics...

[sudden halo]

My issues with cards really don't apply at all to Malifaux. I really dislike uncertainty of options, that comes with drawing cards from a deck. I much prefer uncertainty of outcome.

[sand bobcat]

i guess I could just do like...hidden numbers of dice spent on actions

[sleek trail]

how do you referee that though

wait do you mean like

rolled and then assigned

or a pool you split

[sand bobcat]

1. declare action
2. put hand on table with hidden amount of dice inside
3. opponent, if reacting, does the same
4. reveal and roll

[sleek trail]

and then you have less dice in your pool?

[sand bobcat]

Potentially. It could be some other resource, so you don't have to like...track individual dice in physical space.

[sleek trail]

nothing wrong with that

[spring geyser]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1en7e0ZhMVdn-RzY-Fme-KMzxveBeIPTO85VpW9D_Wrw/edit?usp=sharing

I have started writing up the skirmish wargame rules

general notes on some stuff I haven't worked out how to present yet:

• Shooting at someone will now be an opposed roll with the shooter's Aim Skill vs. the target's Defense Skill; if the target's not in cover, they just count it as if they had rolled a 1. Still need a pretty high margin of success to actually hit someone, rather than just suppress them.
• Game will pretty heavily revolve around reactions, with everyone getting unlimited snap fire reactions in the appropriate arcs when people move outside of cover or dash (very No End in Sight)

[spring geyser]

also, unit profiles are just this now, before equipment (which is purchased separately, because this is a skirmish game)

[sudden halo]

Looking good so far. Feels like an skirmish evolution of the silhouette system

Put in a lot of work on my second golden gear entry. Stripped it and redid it since last time I posted a pic. Was happy with the concept but wanted to see if I could push it to a level I was happy with submitting to a competition.

[sand bobcat]

I really like it!

[trail fulcrum]

Malifaux is good

The cards also makes being good a blackjack a skill in the game

[midnight vine]

yeah it's a good game with a cool aesthetic

[sleek trail]

Malifaux passess my extremely stupid skirmish game test of "can i field a limited number of Very Big Guys"

If i ever get into it im playing the faction with the t-rex

Tangent: how do people feel about units whos primary purpose isnt some variation of Shoot/Stab/ Spell Enemy Dead, in games

The two traditional roles of units to me in games are Kill Guys and Transport Guys

And im wondering what other niches have been made for units in games. A taxonomy, i suppose. Healers ("keep guys alive") are a classic addition, i think

Infinity has the lauded role of "push button"

[fallen rune]

I think there's a third in the form of "units which buff allies"

[sleek trail]

I feel like you can understand that as an extension of Kill Guys but also that could probably apply to Transport Guys as well

Kill, Transport, Buff

[sand bobcat]

Depends on the game too I suppose...I'd say something along the lines of "Kill, Buff, Win" for the more competitive wargames

transports being "buff their movement"

[sleek trail]

In any case i think there is something to be found in designing fun units that arent just about killing stuff

[sand bobcat]

oh, it's lots of fun

[sleek trail]

Or kill stuff in neat ways

[sand bobcat]

I find that semi-realistic games generally struggle to set up rock-paper-scissors within the "kill" space

both infinity and heavy gear have a space where "general purpose" (cheap Kill) models are kind of useless on their own

but if you have a bunch of hard-Buff models, then the expansion of Cheap Kill spheres of influence can mean a lot even if they can't address any particular Kill threat

[sleek trail]

Infinity has basically designed itself around them being useless

Yeah

I think realistic games find it hard to justify buffs

Infinity only has buffing on remotes as an extension of hacking, idk about heavy gear

[sand bobcat]

HGB's most important Buff functionality is ECM+, which gives you an extra die on defense (which in turn generally means 1.33x defense dice at minimum)

Cheap Kill struggles right now because ECM+ models are so incredibly evasive that they just can't be killed by Cheap Kill

[sleek trail]

Similarily technological in theme

[sand bobcat]

They can trade up against Heavy Kill, but Heavy Kill has been extremely overcosted, and Elite Kill is similarly evasive as Buff, so they usually ignore the presence of CHeap Kill

[sleek trail]

Hmm

Does debuff count as buff or kill

Cause technically it makes killing easier, which could be understood as a buff

[sand bobcat]

I'd say buff, it's just not literally buffing your guys

it's stretching the literal definition but I think that, for sake of categorization, it's pretty easy to think of any debuff as "conditionally buffing your own models"

[sleek trail]

Yeah, i agree

[sand bobcat]

and of course depending on the game usually nothing is purely one of those 3 categories

"stand here to earn points" means everything does Win to some degree, eg

dropzone commander has a pretty hard "win" category of models because infantry are necessary for most objectives & usually aren't good at killing anything other than maybe other infantry

(this may have changed as of late, but that's the core dynamic of the game)

transports are hard Buff because they barely can attack but they effectively give models a 9-12" move instead of a 3" move

i think infantry even move like, 1 inch. they really want you to lean on transports/the decision to pick things up

[sleek trail]

You can pick up and drop off same turn, right?

[sand bobcat]

as far as models go there's not much of a cheap-vs-expensive dynamic within factions, but instead there's Kill the Buffers (AA), Kill the Other Killers (almost everything else), and Kill the Winners (anti-infantry)

they've tried to blur those lines but I feel like they didn't approach that well. Stuff that would normally be interesting as a faction dynamic ended up getting distributed to every other faction and making everything less interesting and distinct.

EG: the parasitoid alien horrors have an anti-infantry infantry unit that is almost wild animals so they can't Search for Objectives in buildings well. But then the Resistance also has Berserkers (which basically do the same thing)

[sleek trail]

Shame

[sand bobcat]

hum, I actually forget the specifics... I think the worms can't search but Berserkers are just bad at it. time to check

yo shit this is good.

[sleek trail]

I love the resistance aesthetic in dzc

[sand bobcat]

ah okay, they're more differentiated than i thought.

Living Weapon: This unit cannot search for or claim Objectives, and cannot embark in transports during battle, though may start the game embarked.
vs just having Bloodthirsty, which is...
If this unit is in the same Garrison as an enemy unit, then it may not move away or leave the Garrison. This unit suffers a -2 penalty when searching for objectives.

-2 penalty is pretty rough though because iirc your chance of finding the objective is normally "you have to roll the number of the current round or less"

[sleek trail]

So they cant score on rounds 1 or 2 period

[sand bobcat]

When searching, roll 1 dice for the squad searching. If there are enemy units within 2” or in the same Garrison, the dice roll is modified by -1. Add the resulting number to the number of the current round. If the result is 7 or more, the Objective permanently becomes an Open Objective and the unit claims it.
you can also buff 'em with Scan Tokens, which is another thing

[sleek trail]

Interesting way of doing random scoring of objectives

[sand bobcat]

in practicality the best you could do is stacking Scan Tokens on a building by round 2. so I guess you can make something happen there if you're pushing a bunch of transports

DZC is very weird because infantry squads cost more than tanks

and transports are really cheap too, because you need them to play the game and they're basically a tax

[sleek trail]

I wonder if that reflects oou costing

[sand bobcat]

oh yeha i meant mechanics-wise

[sleek trail]

In univrrse

I mean

I cant word today

[sand bobcat]

not sure, honestly. Never really liked reading lore, lol.

[sleek trail]

I have the original core book somewhere

Got the starter set ages ago

[sand bobcat]

Unit lore is fun because it often informs how they play and thus informs me on the diegetics of it all, but the world lore is always just...depressing

[sleek trail]

Fair

Wargames are so facinating because of how multifaceted they are

[sand bobcat]

i think DZC's super-slow movement speeds are kind of arduous but it's because you always have to move like 3+ guys with 36" range but 3" movement

[sleek trail]

Lmao

It does convey how big a city is

[sand bobcat]

these tanks, you see, they have these rangebands but they HAVE TO STAY WITHIN 2 INCHES OF EACH OTHER OR THEY GET DIARRHEA

[sleek trail]

I dont think any game does urban warfare like it does

[sand bobcat]

I play the slowest faction so I also suffer most (PHR)

and then they gave us a handful of weird less-specialized fast models and imo spoiled the feel

[sleek trail]

I should try and get into it with resistance

I love the helicopters

And the mad max cars

Oh yeah and they have a tiltrotor

I love tiltrotors

[sand bobcat]

I really really like their vehicles. IIRC they released a pseudo-subfaction that has the vehicle designs without all the jerry-rigged repairs...

They're also unfortunately the most expensive faction because they tend to have a lot of models and they never got plastics.

Not to mention that some of the models are like...multiple sculpts of the same vehicle, because the original designer went that hard on the look.

[sleek trail]

That rules but also damn

[sand bobcat]

DZC was an absolutely feral one-man project

as far as I know, this industry guy basically came out of [his parents'?] attic with an all-resin wargame that he designed and cast all of the models for

hawk wargames sunk because he had no sense of scale and he launched a successful kickstarter for another game (Dropfleet Commander)

[sleek trail]

Its good it got picked up by ttcombat

[sand bobcat]

then they got bought by - yeah

iirc he's still working on it but he's not the lead on the project, which led to bullshit like the Behemoths

because apparently, what people want in a 10mm wargame is an optional, Titan-sized model to waste their entire life painting

[sleek trail]

Lame

[sand bobcat]

they have like several pages of rules to themselves and just. ugh

[fallen rune]

The Scourge behemoths look super sick but they're models for sickos only

[sand bobcat]

i'm almost certain it's resin too

[fallen rune]

"Fully poseable tentacles" lmfao

[sand bobcat]

rofl

that is pretty John Hawkwargames but also dear lord

[fallen rune]

yeah

[sleek trail]

The resistance one is bad

Its just a weird walker

[sand bobcat]

the trouble with making GW-sized models is that if you have to cast in resin it's going to fucking break

[sleek trail]

Should have gone with like, a megatank

Or a train or something

[sand bobcat]

(and if you have to cast in metal, it's going to require a forklift)

[fallen rune]

They do also have that

[sand bobcat]

voted most trackable vehicle in the galaxy four centuries in a row

[sleek trail]

Thats alright but the paintjob isnt fuckin grimy enough

[sand bobcat]

i suspect that their primary painter unionized after having to paint the shaltari one

it has like several hundred bulbs on it

[fallen rune]

It's neat but also like holy shit

assembly must be a nightmare

[sand bobcat]

yeah! !!!

look at all of those fucking dots

[sleek trail]

Lmao

[sand bobcat]

i think this one is also Poseable

this one's for the tank modellers out there who are already used to gluing like 50 different pairs of discs together before doing anything else

shaltari have a really fun bit of gameplay-and-story connection going for them

their transports are teleport nodes (of various sizes) and that's how they load and unload units

so (iirc) your transported models are all off-table in a pool instead of being assigned to specific transports

[sleek trail]

Who doesnt love portals

[sand bobcat]

okay yeah, confirmed that's the case. and of course you can like. hop around the board that way

[native portal]

This looks fantastic!

[spring geyser]

there are also Commander Guys with a variety of effects in different games

[sleek trail]

commander guys fall under buff, debuff, and kill most of the time

[spring geyser]

in some games their role is much more fundamental

like "units cannot activate without them" fundamental

[sleek trail]

i would argue this is a buff

if a drastic one

[spring geyser]

I would argue that's stretching the definition

[sleek trail]

thats fair

even still, "commander guy" as an archetype is definitely secondary

vs kill, buff, and win

[spring geyser]

i think the secondary-ness of it depends on the game

[sand bobcat]

It could be "win" in the "If you don't have it you lose" sense.

[sleek trail]

im speaking pan-game

here

[sand bobcat]

It's almost impossible for a model to be only one of the kill/buff/win archetypes. I'd say commanders tend towards buff and win, depending.

[sleek trail]

within a game many secondary archetypes can form

[sand bobcat]

obviously in warmachine it's very Win because if they die you explicitly lose

in infinity i'd say it's a hard "buff", not because they actively buff models but because you usually get a severe debuff if they die (but objectives don't usually concern them)

[sleek trail]

it depends on the commander, as well

commanders in 40k often trend kill

but not always

kill and buff

[sand bobcat]

yeah, it's part of the whole Pulp Heroics shit

in infinity you can get some Kill+Buff commanders, and there are a few ways to prevent the debuff from happening on death, through special models and/or rules (which is still under the Buff category, imo)

[sleek trail]

under this framework the actual role of a model within either fiction or force organization is subordinate to what it actual does on the board (which often is informed by or informs the fiction)

[sand bobcat]

(the avatar is Kill + Buff but until the Reinforcements thing it literally cost like 45% of your army allowance)

[sleek trail]

yeah

[spring geyser]

actually
I think the role the kind of commander i'm talking about would fulfill is something along the lines of "generate resources"

[sleek trail]

buff and/or win

[spring geyser]

i think that's reductive

[sleek trail]

thats the point of a framework, its to reduce

[sand bobcat]

i did kind of type it out today so lemme like...try to formalize it

[spring geyser]

incidentally i was planning on doing a thing in my skirmish wargame where elysian commonwealth guys get a buff to morale/bravery/whatever-i'll-call-it when in line of sight of their commander (recall they have poor morale/bravery/whatever compared to other factions)
because the boss is watching

[sleek trail]

yeah that rules

[sand bobcat]

Okay here we go.

Model Roles in Wargames
kill, buff, win

These are definitions for model roles at a game design level, but the standard and inverse definitions can be applicable to roles that the player is looking for when "listbuilding" (if the game has listbuilding).

Kill: This model's role is to reduce enemy resources in an unreplaceable way. Called "kill" because usually this means "killing" models in a wargame, removing the opponent's models.
Its antonym would be Killable. This model's role is to be an unreplaceable resource that is very vulnerable to being removed by an opponent.
Its inverse would be Tarpit. This model's role is to present unreplaceable resources that an opponent has to "kill" before removing more valuable resources.

Buff: This model's role is to increase the capabilities of your other models. This includes producing additional temporary (or refreshing) resources (eg: "Command Points" that refresh every round).
Its antonym would be Requirement. This model's role is to be something that can reduce the capabilities of your own army (eg: if killed).
Its inverse would be Debuff. This model's role is to reduce the capabilities of the opponent's models.

Win: This model's role is to do something that explicitly ends the game with your victory.
Its antonym would be Lose. This model's role is to do something that explicitly ends the game with your loss.
The inverse would be Loss Threat: This model's role is to do something that explicitly leads to an opponent's loss. It's a circular definition unless you are designing a particularly strange multiplayer game.

[spring geyser]

im also still trying to figure out a thing to do with OSDEF's political officers that isn't just "buff morale"

[sleek trail]

now im very curious what the inverse is

for win

we need to figure one out

[sand bobcat]

The trouble is the definition would be circular:

The inverse would be Loss Threat: This model's role is to do something that explicitly leads to an opponent's loss

I guess it's less circular if you have a multiplayer, "elimination" game, but those are exceedingly rare in wargames

[sleek trail]

infinity actually has a weird example

at least it did in n3

i think

[sand bobcat]

Throwing it in there because why not.

[sleek trail]

baggage being worth extra points, thus making retreat more likely to trigger, thus making killing models a lose threat

because if retreat triggers and ends the game early for you and you're up in points

thats a lose threat

it can be circular but i think its distinction is still valuable because it matters how the players think about the thing

[sand bobcat]

I suppose...I might also be abusing the term "inverse" here.

[sleek trail]

maybe!

force your defintion on the world

[sleek trail]

how metaphorical are you willing to get

[spring geyser]

wdym?

[sleek trail]

like, how much can they influence things with actions that are not directly represented in the fiction

like being able to make people shoot more

or better

even though that might not make as much sense as just affecting morale

[spring geyser]

hmmmm

[trail fulcrum]

Hahahaha

[trail fulcrum]

I mean the most powerful units in every army are units thet do nothing beyond stand there

And not die

Objectivessss

[native portal]

Tarpits

'Hello, here are 60 skaven slaves'

good luck killing them all in time to join the real battle

or the infamous conscripts+commissar

or occasionally even ablative lines of dwarf warriors

[trail fulcrum]

In 40k, pirranahs

Sure you kill 1

But it was 55 points and you spent way too much

[spring geyser]

Thoughts on tracking ammunition in a skirmish wargame?

[sand sonnet]

Tracking ammo feels bad unless it's something abstracted (Like Necromunda's ammo checks) or limited to certain weapons (Like you only brought so many RPG rounds)

[weary cradle]

idk if it feels bad but itd be an extra mental load in addition to all the stuff ur already tracking

[sand sonnet]

I mean yeah I say "feels bad" because extra load for things that aren't fun feels not good to me. I shouldn't need to track how many bullets my guys have unless larger scale logistics is part of the game.

[sleek trail]

I think it needs visualization in some form

[sand sonnet]

I think the question I would pose is what value does it have for the game to track ammunition?

[weary cradle]

yea tokens would be helpful

[sand sonnet]

If there's a fun fluffy cool reason and it doesn't bog down gameplay then it could work, but I don't think I've seen it work well in any game. Battletech a little bit, but that's because it wants to be a simulator sometimes.

[spring geyser]

I was thinking it would be an interesting cost to the otherwise-unlimited snap fire reactions units get

And yeah, I was thinking of doing something like an ammo check more than tracking a resource

[sand sonnet]

Yeah it sounds like it adds a risk/reward element to a powerful ability, which seems good.

[tepid steeple]

gaslands has weapons with limited ammo but you have like 2 or 3 cars

and it comes with printable ammo counters

[sand sonnet]

I forgot about gaslands. The ammo tracking there is okay.

[tepid steeple]

I feel like I remember a tabletop game or video game where ammunition/reloading was respresented by having limited shots within a turn or something

[sand sonnet]

That seems like a good way to control things more of a "rate of fire" than ammo

[tepid steeple]

which in this case could be like everyone can shoot on their turn but different weapons need to pick their shots in snap fire to varying degrees

it's kinda a combo of rate of fire and like, magazine size/reload time I guess

ohh I think I'm at least partially thinking of Imperium Maledictum. anything capable of burst or auto fire has its mag size in number of bursts and outside of that shots are free

[spring geyser]

I'm thinking currently if you get less than a certain number on a shooting roll the gun needs to be reloaded before it can fire again

[calm mantle]

Necromunda does that, and that's not too annoying to deal with

although I do think that's a choice which works well because of the Vibes of Necromunda

[spring geyser]

Also means that more skilled operators will run out of ammo less (can fluff as them being better at managing their ammo)

[calm mantle]

Where you're not career soliders you're gangs fighting in the gutter

[tepid steeple]

I like necromunda's ammo dice cause it's hard to forget that it's a thing, even though it's rare to run out of ammo with most weapons, since it has its own dice. and shootier guns are more likely to run out

[sand sonnet]

Yeah it's a good balance lever on the scarier guns.

[sand bobcat]

My understanding is that ammo tracking isn't necessarily realistic either, given the implicit time scale of most wargames...

But reload mechanics is reasonable.

[weary cradle]

i do like bad rolls = ammo reloads

means even "no hits" progresses the skirmish in a way, just not to ur benefit

[sand bobcat]

i'd do something like "1s and 6s"; I've got a bit of a weird fixation on finding natural ways to discourage weighted dice

[sudden halo]

I've always just abstracted it into the rate of fire of things.

[sand bobcat]

plus like maybe you run out of ammo hitting

[sudden halo]

Also, you've mentioned having suppression, you could use that as well as part of the ammo abstraction - weapons with larger magazines suppress more effectively.

[trail fulcrum]

crying

[sudden halo]

On the other hand if you do have a reload mechanic/ammo check, instead or in addition to requiring a reload it could reduce the suppression of nearby enemies as the fire lets up. In my head in skirmish games everyone's shooting all the time, were just rolling for the aimed shots/focal points.

[trail fulcrum]

unless it's something cool and gimmicky

like hmmm

a six gun mechanic?

like you have 6 bullets

represented by a d6 and like a last shot

kinda deal?

leaning heavily into One last shot kinda

western duel energy

[sudden halo]

"reload takes an action point, or you may remove two suppression tokens from enemies within range to reload" perhaps. Suppression making space for reloading.

[trail fulcrum]

dumb idea, everyone has 6 shots, the game lasts 6 rounds,

your units shoot every round

[weary cradle]

in terms of dice pools, ive always interpreted one die = one blow/shot

[spring geyser]

Actually "check to see if your mag runs out" offers an additional chance to distinguish between laser and kinetic weapons, in that lasers would have a really low chance of running out but can't be reloaded without resupply (because you're running them off one big battery, instead of a sequence of magazines)

[trail fulcrum]

the game is all about positioning so that when the shot happens it's advantageous

not even sure how that kind of wild west deal plays

or would even function

but the idea of counting down and the end of turn representing a gunshot

seems really cool

[weary cradle]

could fun for like a looter-shooter sorta skirmish game

[trail fulcrum]

like there is no action for shooting

it's all movement

[sudden halo]

This sort of ties back to an earlier comment I made about wargame time scales. If you're in a DnD timescale that can be approximately accurate. I mean, guns shoot quick, even bolt actions, normally well in excess of the dice games allow you to roll. If you're on a 30s or 60s round timescale then you have to assume you're only rolling for the abstraction of effective blows rather than every attack.

[sleek trail]

Ive been waffling on ammo for the thing im working on, similarly to limit reaction shots

I might instead make setting up overwatch something you have to do in some way...but it also might not be a problem

[trail fulcrum]

movement or take aim? Hmmm

[sand bobcat]

I'd trim it down to "ballistics have this reload mechanic, energy does not".

[trail fulcrum]

thinking out loud now

[sleek trail]

The main thing is that in an AA game face to face favors the side which activates less

You cant use one unit to clear a path by spending multiple orders on it

So i wanna experiment

My thought was that you could have an automatic reload at end of turn, and an optional action you could take as a reload

Will have to fiddle with it

Probably going to work on just seeing if the basic shoot interactions are fun first before i add ammo

Still trying to figure out how lethal i want the game to be

I want to somehow have things be able to survive a couple hits (especially since every shooting rn interaction auto-succeeds unless theres some interference) but also not have to track big amounts of hp

Which is an issue i have with kill team

Nothing should have more than 6 wounds so people can track it with usual dice

God i hope "unless theres something complicating your shot (bad rangeband, cover, someone shooting back) you hit" is fun

[trail fulcrum]

so idea is alteranting activations

but there's no actual shoot action

you declare move/take cover/aim

something like that

and at the end of the turn everyone shoots one shot at the same time

[sleek trail]

Feels very frozen synapse

[trail fulcrum]

there's actions like tackle, to deactivate someone's shooting

but like

thematically it takes place over six rounds,

literally a revolver

[trail fulcrum]

I guess? Not sure

was thinking you had to burn your turn to even have the ability to make decisions during the shooting step

otherwise the person panics and shoots the most visible/closest

[sleek trail]

I think this would be pretty neat

Im curious how you would do unit differentiation

If you would

It could be a bite sized tactics game as is

[tepid steeple]

oh I was also thinking of space hulk

[trail fulcrum]

Yeah I don't think I want to do unit differentiation

Like just 3v3 six shooters

[tepid steeple]

where storm bolters have unlimited ammo but in overwatch if you roll a double on its two dice you have to reload

[trail fulcrum]

Call it HIGH NOON

though I'm trying to figure out if I even should randomise the effect of shooting

or even how to do so and make it feel

tense/impactful

[sleek trail]

Idea

Shooting isnt randomized but theres a small chance to survive if shot

[flat crow]

Isn't that already a thing in some games?

[trail fulcrum]

oooh!

Shooting auto hits but like

the enemy makes the save?

cover vastly increases it

[sleek trail]

Yeah

[trail fulcrum]

actions are

take aim

scatter

tackle

Take Aim lets you target anyone

scatter is a move action

tackle is a move as well but like

deactivates someone's shooting for the round?

But tackle is move+D6 or something

and you can tackle enemy models

so it's an advance and a melee

is my rambling making any sense?

hahah

[sleek trail]

Makes sense to me

[sleek trail]

Which thing?

[flat crow]

I misread your prior disregard lol

[sleek trail]

👍

[spring geyser]

I'm also thinking of doing a more complex wound system of some kind, even if only because I would like to really represent that these are guys in space suits and make suit breaches and system damage and stuff possible outcomes

But don't really know how to approach that

[fallen rune]

There’s a bunch of ways it’s been done

Damage tracks might make sense

[spring geyser]

Anyone have actual examples of miniature skirmish wargames with more complex wound systems than just "wounded or not" that don't take forever to resolve

[sand bobcat]

Heavy Gear Blitz has a Hull/Structure system which generally means:

• 6hp total per mech
• mech has 4 Hull and 2 Structure
• when Hull is depleted, the mech is Crippled, and thus loses 1d6 on rolls for all actions

[native portal]

NEIS just does fine, wounded or dead

With wounded being annoying because you need people to move wounded people

Other than full health tracking systems or like, Warhammer 'wounds' stuff I haven't seen many systems

[fallen rune]

Older game but Silent Death (space fighter skirmish game) has ships fill boxes as they’re damaged and the filled boxes make them take debuffs

Pretty simple to do ime

[sand sonnet]

I haven't thought about Silent Death in years. This game was a good mix of simulatory things and "simpler" mechanics.

Some goofy fuckin' ship models though.

[fallen rune]

Yeah haha

I never played it a lot but it’s a cool game

[sand sonnet]

Now I'm wondering what happened to my copy.

[trail fulcrum]

There's body part damage like how warmachine does it?

[sudden halo]

XWing has the damage deck. Facedown are just hit points but crits make them face up which has certain effects.

Frostgrave has the permanent injuries things, but during a fight just has HP.

Infinity has a few units that get different stats when they're wounded.

Oh, and the classic would be clix games.

[flat crow]

https://vxtwitter.com/TrenchCrusade/status/1724547980202762419?t=U3jRRAv9kfh94gW4BLm7qQ&s=19

[sleek trail]

does trench crusade have rules yet?

[flat crow]

No public ones that I know of

[sand bobcat]

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3084741621 someone's been very invested in making an RPG Engine version of heavy gear blitz, so this might be worth looking at if you use that

[spring geyser]

contemplating actually using custom dice for damage resolution in a system something like:

• Armor is split into "Refusal" which reduces the number of Effect Dice rolled and "Resistance" which gives save dice rolled
• Effect dice are different for different weapons (for example lasers will have a "start fire" outcome)
• 5 or 6 on save dice lets you cancel out effect dice of your choosing

[sleek trail]

Finally got my models from tag raid

I now own a szalamandra

[native portal]

As tempting as it is, I caution against two words with the same starting letter

[spring geyser]

lol

good point

[native portal]

The concept though is very cool

[sudden halo]

I like my space nuns to be a bit more anime with visible hair, so I did a little sculpting this morning.

[sleek trail]

Nice

[tepid steeple]

nice job!

[midnight vine]

i was just reminded of my favourite 2 things to happen in a community driven event for a minis game

for guildball there was an event called the free cities draft where you could report games and for each game reported for a guild they could vote and specify a rookie, the team with the most votes got their highest picked rookie then second place and so on, unless a team above you had picked the rookie your team had so it went to your next highest

of the rookies all that was known of them was a very broad overview like one was a striker (futbol game) , one was an ex gang heavy and one was an old guy who never made it to the big stage

the result of the draft ended up with the most combat heavy team ending up with the striker of the rookies which led to a really cool design challenge for the devs

and it lead to serious campaigning to get one faction all aligned for a single rookie from a content creator and it worked so as a nod to him they included his catchphrase in the rookie's rules

both of which i find super cool

plus the concept of the event alone is really fun to me and the way it could make the devs stretch their design muscles

[sleek trail]

More wargames should be sports

[midnight vine]

so true

[sleek trail]

The only three i can name off the top are guild ball, blood bowl, and Aristea!

[midnight vine]

and aristea is somewhere in the realm of gladiator battle as sport

sports are good cause they give inherent alt win conditions

one thing gb did well is any taken out units come back so you're never like permanently down on activations

another good thing is one of the later team captains is an ex-team member riding on a team mascot tortoise so the team has one less member but in exchange they can activate a unit twice

but also: little man riding giant tortoise in charge of the mercernary faction

[sleek trail]

I wish to see the mini

[calm mantle]

That is amazing, what a gentleman

[midnight vine]

his name is greed

the previous captains for his team were a pirate and a slasher

he was actually never a player sort of

he was an accompaniment to another character

who carried him around

[sudden halo]

Rip guild ball. Great game. Shame it's kind of tough to get the models now.

[sand bobcat]

It's a 2d game, right? Someone must have ported it to like, Vassal...

[sudden halo]

I'm pretty sure it's on vassal and TTS

[next pilot]

guild ball was cool

[sand bobcat]

ugh. i might just give up on heavy gear for now.

It's impossible to get people's enthusiasm going for the game and Battletech, as much of a fucking fossil as it is, is surprisingly easy to find people to play with.

I'm also working on a 6mm mech game so I might as well make models and terrain for that at the same time.

I'm also frustrated with the quality of HGB models and designs.

[sand sonnet]

Heavy Gear's problem has always been that it lacks drip.

[sand bobcat]

They had a handful of fantastic ideas early on and then whoever came up with the tech disappeared and they started getting all sorts of shit ideas.

[sand sonnet]

I do like some of the Jovian Wars designs and minis, but that game never had quite as much support.

[sand bobcat]

https://i.imgur.com/mhs086o.jpg I've done some good work sprucing up their better designs, but right now they're obsessed with pushing out a ton of underdetailed shit that doesn't even match their own lore well.

Well, and sculpting/resculpting old canon variants, which is okay but also not exciting at all

despite the constant messaging along the lines of "most people who play wargames don't post online at all", I've heard shit that makes it feel like they just have a handful of personal friends that they're releasing products for

[hollow crypt]

I think the caprice mechs are still my favourite designs of any mechs ever

[sand bobcat]

https://store.dp9.com/image/cache/catalog/dp9-hgb-caprice/Baalim_Heavy_Frame_Pack_ls_1000wide-800x888.jpg i like them too but EG, this old thing is basically nonfunctional in the wargame and won't be good in the RPG either

and it's a big sculpt by heavy gear's standards, as noted that base is 60mm wide

[hollow crypt]

Yeah

I do think that, as core to the hobby as it is, miniatures will remain the bane of indie wargames

At least until the magic day 3d printers become good and accessible that people keep telling me will happen someday

[sand bobcat]

they'll never be good enough, tbh

layers aren't going away and they'll always be existent enough to interfere with painting techniques

[sand sonnet]

They're already good enough, they're just not that accessible.

[sand sonnet]

You literally cannot tell with a decent resin printer.

[sand bobcat]

https://i.imgur.com/EMXwzVj.jpg i can

[autumn sun]

Yeah uh, the print layers are really not a hinderance to painting. Like, at all.

[sand bobcat]

that's a 40mm base

i have a friend with resin, 3d printed space marines, and the layers are obvious there as well

[sand sonnet]

You can print poorly in resin sure.

Your friend probably doesn't have a 4k or better printer.

[sand bobcat]

these particular prints are from a US contractor that DP9 used

[autumn sun]

It depends on the printer and how its calibrated.

[hollow crypt]

I mean Im not even really commenting on how good 3d printers are, Im more saying that it’s still 200-500 dollars and a commitment of a large sum of time to get a 3d printer working

[autumn sun]

Like this is a 3D print a friend gave me and you can't see the layers at all.

It IS correct that 3D printers are outside the reach of most people.

[hollow crypt]

Part of the reason I push so hard for indie wargames without minis is because they cost like, a few dollars worth of a print job and a cereal box to get setup

[sand sonnet]

Yeah they aren’t all that easy to setup and use.

[hollow crypt]

Whereas even at the cheapest 3d printers still take a ton of time

[sand bobcat]

this image is 1000x744

[autumn sun]

And?

[sand bobcat]

and, obviously, that makes it harder to see layers. Also not sure what size base that is, if it's a big model that also means the layers are comparatively "smaller".

[hollow crypt]

And as a game designer either you have to rely on players doing kitbashes or spend a lot of dev time making models

[autumn sun]

50mm square base.

Roughly...4.5" tall.

Closer to 4" actually.

[sand bobcat]

I do like games where the kitbashing is the point, as per Gaslands.

[autumn sun]

4k and up resin printers can absolutely get fantastic results and are more than good enough, it's just that buying and using a printer is a whole other hobby in and of itself. There's not really any like...plug-and-play options on the market right now--it's more technically complicated, and you do need a dedicated space and some way to get the fumes out, which puts it into a niche category.

The time commitment too is a factor. You're not printing a model out in 30 minutes, shit can take hours. Assuming the print doesn't fail, which even the most calibrated machine will do some times.

[sand bobcat]

https://ameralabs.b-cdn.net/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/AmeraLabs-settings-layer-height-Comparison-2.jpg
Would be easier to be convinced if I had ever received something printed with 10-micrometer layers. I did see someone's microscopic Battletech print at a store on Saturday and thought it was cast at first.

[autumn sun]

Yeah. The 20 and 10 are approachable on 2k printers with a bit of futzing, easier on a 4k.

[sand bobcat]

By "microscopic" I mean "it was printed to fit in a like, 25x25x20 mm space"

[autumn sun]

The 50 isn't even that bad honestly, primer and some paint would hide a lot of that (or at least trick the eye).

[sand bobcat]

I unfortunately have an eye for those things.

[autumn sun]

Fair.

The 50 is something I'd do for like...small bits of terrain like statues, where it doesn't really matter because that's not really the focus.

[sand bobcat]

You can basically use plastic for that, yeah.

[autumn sun]

https://youtu.be/KVf0mbBCygQ?si=Oe4zNVIZVLjk8sjd Now if you really want it smooth, well.

More applicable for FDM tho, honestly.

[sand bobcat]

snerk. well, at that point you're basically doing sculpting, yourself...

[autumn sun]

Yeah lmao

[sand bobcat]

which isn't a bad thing of course.

[autumn sun]

Little too much effort methinks but it's an option.

Yeah.

I can sculpt stuff from scratch but I'm more comfortable kitbashing stuff.

[sand bobcat]

I have a suspicion that for my models, they did higher-res settings on the bodies and round bits and then ran the blocky legs and arms to be faster

[autumn sun]

Entirely possible.

[sand bobcat]

still thinking i should layer everything with a standard acrylic after the xpresscolor, though. only way to really hide the layers I think.

iunno, gotta keep thinking about it.

[autumn sun]

Oh you definitely want to highlight after xpress/contrast, just helps make the model pop more.

[sand bobcat]

i do love kitbashing. Once I put away these Gears I'll probably start doing 6mm terrain again...

i'm basically at a point where I was thinking of making one of my "real" models but battletech & my game project have me thinking "I should paint some of these 6mm generic sci fi tanks isntead"

[sudden halo]

There's a lot of variables that go into resin printing. I'd say on average my prints at home have less lines than ones I've bought, but they're more fragile and I had to dail them in a lot to get there. Orientation matters a lot and if you're printing enough to sell you're probably maximizing stuff on the plate and finding a time/quality ratio that is more profitable and consistent.

I'm not impressed by the contractor DP9 uses.

[autumn sun]

I do a lot of kitbashing and a bunch of my OPR fantasy stuff is gonna be a whole lot of that. It's been fun so far.

[sudden halo]

My only points of comparison are Death Ray Designs, and Kingdom Death for professional prints. Both of which are way better than the HG stuff I've got. DRD prints are a little smoother but have more resin-like qualities, where the KDM stuff has some faint layer lines that have gone away with priming, but is much stronger.

[sand bobcat]

i hate that steel rift decided to call its mechs "he-v" and then ALSO have light/medium/heavy categories for its mechs.

[sudden halo]

For all its faults BT is ubiquitous. Especially Alpha Strike these days, at least around me. It'll probably see a pretty big bump in a couple months when the mercs Kickstarter delivers. See a lot more people using vehicles then once there are official catalyst ones.

BT could really use a reboot IMO. Spruce up the lore, fix some nonsense and weird decisions. But I highly doubt we'll see that ever. 6mm stuff is super fun to paint though and 6mm terrain is awesome. Can actually make meaningful sized areas so you can really flesh out a base or a city or a ravine or something.

[sand bobcat]

hell yeah.

god. i want to paint now but i gotta settle into bed.

also i'm tired anyway.

[trail fulcrum]

Trying to figure out how to use

Diving suit dudes now

[autumn sun]

By putting them behind a fish tank and making "blub blub" noises.

[sudden halo]

Still thinking about a reverse infinity orders system. All your units go once like normal but you have a number on command orders that let you activate anything you'd like.

I'd probably do it chunked AA in some way. Maybe by squad of 3-5. Playing more infinity lately, it's clear that with that reaction system a unit has to be able to act multiple times to get things done without dragging the game into a stalemate, but theres probably a way to preserve it without it being so heavily IGYG.

[trail fulcrum]

Other than the blindingly ovvious hahaha

[sudden halo]

Is the diving suit wargame any good? I saw the KS for it and the stls but I don't know anything about the rules.

[trail fulcrum]

Dunno I just found these STLs and thought they looked cool

[sudden halo]

https://antimatter-games.com/deepwars/

This was it

[trail fulcrum]

Painted a lil guy up

[trail fulcrum]

Sadly haven't played it looks like it's fine

[trail fulcrum]

And washed

[spring geyser]

Think I might focus the skirmish wargame on mercenaries in my setting specifically (makes it easier to structure a campaign) and give it the full title Daylight Stars: Sublight Condottiere

[sand bobcat]

@autumn sun now poking around to see if anyone locally has a 3d printer that can do 10-micrometer prints. Kind of doubting it because someone got to me with a printer that has an "xy resolution" of 19x24 micrometers. 😔

[autumn sun]

Good luck.

Might have better luck with 20-micrometer.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/408609553597464579/1176580229423181945/IMG_2291.jpg?ex=656f62ba&is=655cedba&hm=0e2f6fdb6f10385c47bb9d2a1ce4a936f88d64a73dab3ef60907789e5da363a0&

Huh.

[hollow crypt]

What does

what does that mean

I like the monowheel tank

[autumn sun]

People behind Dystopian Wars is doing a not-Epic I guess?

So, land battles rather than sea battles.

[sand sonnet]

Yup restarting the old land battle game in a 6mm.

It hasn't been a thing since Spartan collapsed and TT picked up the IP.

The joke is making fun of a GW twitter post of a Legion Imperialis Rhino driving over a ketchup packet.

[autumn sun]

https://vxtwitter.com/warhammer/status/1724427590666944537 Yeah someone showed this to me and the joke finally made sense

[sand bobcat]

Best I'm seeing locally is 28.

[autumn sun]

Close enough.

[sand bobcat]

Not for my purposes. -.-

[next pilot]

How do you paint something that small

[sand bobcat]

https://i.imgur.com/6O9rX8h.jpg By not playing 28mm games, mostly.

[native portal]

Spray a base coat, highlight details

Add a wash

Potentially highlight again if anything was dulled out

[sand bobcat]

Past a certain size it's actively easier to paint smaller things. There's no real way to make it take longer so you can just focus on dotting whatever little detail with a brush tip.

And then the colour is there and you're done.

As for seeing the details, a good light and reading glasses for your Eye Health and you're sorted. Frankly, reading glasses are good practice for any model small enough to warrant a paintbrush.

[sand bobcat]

https://dp9forum.com/topic/25984-dream-pod-9-golden-gear-2023-painting-competition/#comment-336530
Buncha Heavy Gear customs in here.

[flat crow]

i love that tank design

and i think i vaguely remember what its based off of lol

reminds me allot of these

but i guess its the most like shaped like the kugelpanzer lol

[sudden halo]

Oh sick, I'll get to check out my competition ahead of the deadline.

[spring geyser]

Yeah, I have a 20 micrometer printer

[sand sonnet]

Anycubic's Photon Mono series does 10 microns.

[autumn sun]

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/manticgames/warpath-the-game-of-epic-scale-sci-fi-warfare?ref=2p44jh&mc_cid=e595ff750a Not sure when this'll launch but, hey.

[sand sonnet]

Mantic didn’t even bother to use a different word for this one.

[autumn sun]

If the shoe fits.

[sand sonnet]

The real question now is which sauce packet they’ll have a tank run over.