So the red here looks "newer" than the orange.
#Indie+Alternative Wargaming
sand bobcat
nobody makes a warm black paint which is also infuriating
i really ought to consider just having cold black be the accent colour as complement to everything else being a warm colour but i'm Annoyed!!!
sand bobcat
my best models in that collection do the same so I might as well
sudden halo
ProAcryl's Coal Black is pretty warm, may be worth looking at.
sleek trail
Wave of fantasy napoleonic
flat crow
Did...did I summon this from the ether
Like this is almost exactly what I was wanting lol
These models fuck
sleek trail
Bah, hexes
Someday i will shed my aversion to grids
But not today
The models are good, though. Hopefully one will be able to get em wjthout rules
twin mountain
https://www.beastsofwar.com/fantasy/napoleonica-steel-and-magic-signum-games/
@steady swallow @digital bay
omg hexes
praise the lord
flat crow
lol
steady swallow
Oooh
flat crow
The models are good, though. Hopefully one will be able to get em wjthout rules
even if i never play this game ill use the models for turnip ngl
sleek trail
Bah humbug i say. Bah
twin mountain
having to measure stuff is one of the cardinal sins burned into the soul of wargaming. I understand why it can't be removed from a lot of designs and the value it brings to its players, but I will always shed a tear
sleek trail
Battletech and its consequences
twin mountain
it's like committing to having a game with limited communication rules and stuff
sleek trail
having to measure stuff is one of the cardinal sins burned into the soul of warg...
Counterpoint: tape measures are wonderful
I love them
flat crow
even if i never play this game ill use the models for turnip ngl
also it has amusing touches of turnip dna which i count as a positive
twin mountain
you're just kinda pushing yourself into a place where competitive gaming is secretly kinda impossible
sleek trail
Competitive is for CHUMPS
flat crow
the french have hired werewolves
im so here for this
they literally found Rougarou and gave them uniforms i hope
sleek trail
I will always sacrifice competitive viability
For funny tape measure
But also i dont think it limits it if premeasuring is allowed
Slows it down, sure
flat crow
but yeah its like what if heroic fantasy france vs turnip28 british if the arts anything to go on lol
sleek trail
But if premeasuring is legal its basically equivalent to grid in knowledge
Very bright schemes on the french
twin mountain
But also i dont think it limits it if premeasuring is allowed
you still need people to come up with consensus on premeasurements, touching stuff can move it, line of sight stuff is also something I'll include in this vague space of measurement sins
where you go yeah I dunno the tip of my gun can draw a line to that corner of your model there
it's all very messy and requires a certain amount of consensus
twin mountain
and consensus is bad in zero sum gaming
flat crow
that did not send the way i wnated lol
sleek trail
Standardizable
twin mountain
not like, unplayably bad
flat crow
welp i have found my one sticking point for this game lol
cuz these designs are causing my eyes to roll into my skull so hard
twin mountain
it's why I love games like aristeia for just. putting people on a physical space
steady swallow
having to measure stuff is one of the cardinal sins burned into the soul of warg...
I understand your reasoning but also it feels easier for new folks to just say “yeah grab a tape measure”
flat crow
they even have the fucking ineward pointed toes thing
twin mountain
quantized space I mean
twin mountain
I understand your reasoning but also it feels easier for new folks to just say “...
"move 3 spaces" is really easy tbh
like much easier than a tape measure around a corner
twin mountain
nah it's way more objective
you're generally drawling lines from points to other points on the grid it's not about models
steady swallow
"move 3 spaces" is really easy tbh
It IS but then I have to design spaces and playmats instead of just allowing the kitchen table
Which is the MATERIAL difficulty for new folks I like to avoid
twin mountain
this in a genre where everyone has to paint models haha
sleek trail
Theres a freeform and creative nature to non-grid measurements
In building tables
In designing terrain
flat crow
grid makes it at least more digitally friendly imo
twin mountain
two exceed decks and 9 spaces cards take up a lot less space on a kitchen table than two skirmish armies
or like, more realistically something like a senjutsu board
you'd need a 2D space
flat crow
cuz measuring distances in like tts is something that actively repels me from using tts for games where you measure lol
sleek trail
A! Is good, dont get me wrong, and theres space for grid in the world
twin mountain
and also you can use gridded tablecloths
something I'm a bit surprised nobody bothers trying
like it's not hard to get a tablecloth with a square pattern on it
steady swallow
It’s something I CONSIDER for dragonsmoke but, I keep wanting to avoid things I can’t ensure players will have on hand?
steady swallow
Like, that’s why I don’t have templates despite all the shit theyd fix for me
twin mountain
It’s something I CONSIDER for dragonsmoke but, I keep wanting to avoid things I ...
fwiw, I think wargames are interestingly high commitment when it comes to tabletop designs in general so you might as well go for broke. I haven't really made any myself though so you'd have more experience here
sleek trail
Maybe its "objectively" worse but its like vinyl, for me.
twin mountain
like if you're asking players to assemble armies of minis or baseplates, and then large amounts of dice
sleek trail
The imperfections and limits of the medium are essential
twin mountain
and lots of reference cards
adding a board isn't really that hard
like, do measurement for realism or feel
steady swallow
My goal is printable, paper things, and for that the easiest way to do that feels like doing inches
twin mountain
not for portability imo
sleek trail
It adds modularity
steady swallow
Because then you just set up your paper stuff and go with some dice and a tape measure
sleek trail
Someone can bring some wierd terrain
Or like
Have fucked slopes on the map
And it all works out
spring geyser
Hex grids are also incompatible with terrain pieces that aren't made for them
twin mountain
y'know, if you'd like I can help design portable quantized spaces - there are easy ways
flat crow
but yeah either way i dig everything but the alliance of nephilim
which i guess is the obligatory wank bait i shouldnt be surprised to see lol
twin mountain
rather than printing a whole mat or board, you can just print a whole bunch of small crosses and use them to define the corners
like you scatter a grid of points on the table and the rows and columns become obvious
sleek trail
rather than printing a whole mat or board, you can just print a whole bunch of s...
Similar jostling problem
Not the same
twin mountain
jostling problem is much smaller
steady swallow
y'know, if you'd like I can help design portable quantized spaces - there are ea...
I feel like it’d be a good convo, I’d like to see about it and talk about why’s and how’s of the feelies I’m aiming for
sleek trail
I just like the smoothness of non-quantized movement
twin mountain
I feel like it’d be a good convo, I’d like to see about it and talk about why’s ...
yeah for sure deli, I'd love to help. I think this stuff is really interesting and worth pushing past traditionalism in favor of cool new ideas
sleek trail
Doesnt feel like snapping
sand bobcat
I think of measure-and-move the same way I think of sports. Yes, there is inevitably imprecision in the rules. But people like...can play games in spite of that
steady swallow
Gecko is right tho, there’s a layer of inexplicable fondness a La vinyl for some parts of the inches
sand bobcat
FIFA is like, the biggest "game" organization on the planet, and the rules literally have shit in them about "did you actually mean to touch the ball with your arms? no? it's not a hand ball"
twin mountain
I feel like it’d be a good convo, I’d like to see about it and talk about why’s ...
here's my best hastily googled reference https://i.stack.imgur.com/yJVG5.jpg
it's really easy to make something like this on a table
you can arrange a whole bunch of point markers and boom you have a whole grid
and the point markers collected take up like 0 space
and it's easy to set up and tear down too, like, you just pour the dots on the table and everyone can put them in place
sand bobcat
the other issue with quantized spaces is that if you have long distances that you count (battletech has 21 hex ranges), they are significantly slower to resolve than measurements
twin mountain
Gecko is right tho, there’s a layer of inexplicable fondness a La vinyl for some...
if you like inches for inches, for like pure game feel, that's fine
twin mountain
the other issue with quantized spaces is that if you have long distances that yo...
no actualy this can be resolved with good grid references
sleek trail
Quantized id say is better to translate to digital
steady swallow
if you like inches for inches, for like pure game feel, that's fine
Part of it is that, but I do still want to chew through and see what I can learn :3
steady swallow
There’s a reason I went for VASSAL first
sleek trail
That said i am quantifying model volumes and stuff for the game im writing. I might be old fashioned on inches but i abhor tlos
And hostile modeling
sand bobcat
no actualy this can be resolved with good grid references
I've seen the cubic coordinates thing for hexes. I really don't think stuff like that is particularly good for the same reason that I don't think having 5+ modifiers conceivably built into every attack roll is good.
sand bobcat
Yeah, that.
twin mountain
you can find the distance between any two hexes by just finding the biggest gap in numbers
it's very fast and easy
twin mountain
I've seen the cubic coordinates thing for hexes. I really don't think stuff like...
tbh it's fast and accurate. like, it works. It's not compexity for its own sake
the tape measure can be very complicated, especially around corners
sleek trail
Hard to combo with something like the fast grid setup
twin mountain
yeah for sure
sleek trail
the tape measure can be very complicated, especially around corners
I actually really like how kill team resolved measuring around corners
twin mountain
shoutout to tannhauser map design
sleek trail
Which was to insist on straight lines for each segment of movement
twin mountain
which is used nowadays in Unmatched
sand bobcat
Tape measures around corners are...you just bend the ruler
sleek trail
Unmatches is good. Pointcrawl
flat crow
i like doing funky playing fields
sleek trail
Tape measures around corners are...you just bend the ruler
Hard to read
flat crow
but thats coming from this as someone way more into the hobbying side of things lol
sleek trail
Best solution ive seen is marked pipecleaners
twin mountain
bendy measures are very high variance
yeah you need string and pipercleaners and stuff
I prefer string solutions
anyway
my true love
the only LOS I have ever loved
sleek trail
Solid system
twin mountain
insert heart locket gif here
sleek trail
But also like
twin mountain
@latent rover talking about your favorite game
sleek trail
But yeah the problem with that is that its not easy to spontaneously manifest
twin mountain
first ever lancer game I played? we did free measure. Like in wargames.
I actually prefer free measure over grid movement in ttrpgs?
like it's so weird to me that people do
- grid movement in all ttrpgs, co-op storytelling games
sleek trail
Genuinely i think thats how id want to run lancer
twin mountain
- free measure in big competitive 1v1 wargames
sleek trail
Irl
twin mountain
yeah we did it irl
sand bobcat
The fundamental thing with measure-and-move is that the heart of wargaming is playing with dioramas. RPGs tend towards grids because most people are playing with a lot less diorama-y stuff.
twin mountain
I drew circular bases for all the mechs
latent rover
<@360367495963607040> talking about your favorite game
haha nice, unmatched is alright
sleek trail
The fundamental thing with measure-and-move is that the heart of wargaming is pl...
Yeah
Im more into funny little men
Than competitive gaming
sand bobcat
Wargames are almost all adversarial because of history, and because co op/solo rules are basically impossible to write without asking players to make judgements for themselves.
sleek trail
I hold the position that like. True balance/fairness isnt really possible in games as random
As wargames, card games
twin mountain
you don't need balance or fairness
you need clarity of execution
like, a competitive game is in a bad state if an opponent can go "I dunno I don't think that was legal" and a casual observer can't obviously tell who's right
sand bobcat
I tried writing detailed AI for some small-time wargame I bought and it was excruciating. The standard rules were vague statements like "move to get a shot on a player".
twin mountain
you need judges and stuff for everything
irl sports is a good example of this
you need refs
and then people get mad at the refs
and it's a whole, like, cost of doing business
but in mtg you get mana screwed and it's unfair but it just happened there's no way of squinting your way around loss
sleek trail
I will solve my game by adding a ref
twin mountain
again, blows my mind
sand bobcat
The fundamental thing with measure-and-move is that the heart of wargaming is pl...
my answer on that front
flat crow
sleek trail
Most competitive wargames are solved at listbuilding
This is a problem
Abolish lists
flat crow
https://tenor.com/view/taiho-shichau-zo-teehee-anime-youre-under-arrest-ova-gif-...
me as i destroy all competition in games slowly but surely
weary cradle
yeah, funny story: ttrpgs DO have a ref
yea, either the gm (literally also known as referees in some games) or just all the other players
sand bobcat
Also, while plenty of people play wargames competitively, I think the appeal is more in them being adversarial than specifically being competitive
sleek trail
yeah, funny story: ttrpgs DO have a ref
To be fair ttrpgs have the (probably overhyped) problem of "the ref can win"
sand bobcat
playing mario kart versus playing quake
flat crow
i to a degree disagree with the gm being called a ref
sleek trail
Anyways i should add a "if two players cant agree" rule to my game
flat crow
but thats more on philosophical grounds than anything lol
flat crow
anyone who tries to daisy chain takes d6 mortal wounds to all units in their army
man some of these models fuck so hard
like even if i dont play this im getting these for turnip28 lol
some wouldnt even need any converting lol
sand bobcat
i still wish i knew anyone who played 15mm so I could have a good reason to keep building my MaK in 15mm
flat crow
id play tinies but mostly for fantasy stuff lol
cuz thats the sorta stuff that scale appeals to me for
sand bobcat
40k rangebands on 32mm models annoys me. I like the idea of casual stuff in 15mm because at least then the distances can look a little less absurd.
plus you can like, play on a 3x3 or something, and still have slightly more coherent-looking rangebands.
flat crow
btw bar did you see we have a dystopia wars forum too?
sleek trail
On the free move point i wish more games would use free move to do interesting shit
Like gaslands
Or x wing
sand bobcat
btw bar did you see we have a dystopia wars forum too?
oh, yeah, but...i dunno if I would really be into the game. still kind of annoyed at myself for buying into it without actually looking at some gameplay
sleek trail
Templates and stuff for moving that only work cause its not quantized
sand bobcat
gaslands kicks ass.
sleek trail
Ive played car wars quantized cars are frustrating
sand bobcat
oooh, right, car wars was a fuckin hex grid
that being said I can't hate on 60 degree steering because that's battletech, babey.
granted battletech entities are implied to be nightmarishly clunky. Unlike a car.
sleek trail
oooh, right, car wars was a fuckin hex grid
Squares, edition i played
sudden halo
I actually prefer free measure over grid movement in ttrpgs?
Playing in person, absolutely agree. It's mostly the terrain/component compatibility part but I think it's really nice to just use whatever space.
flat crow
i prefer rpgs that aggressively lean into theater of mind lol
sudden halo
40k rangebands on 32mm models annoys me. I like the idea of casual stuff in 15mm...
Oh I agree so much here. 32mm is just too big to look right for anything with firearms or other long range weapons. It just feels silly shooting less than the length of my front lawn.
Which goes back to your previous point on the diorama nature of wargaming. On a grid I don't care about scale ratios. But with miniatures I really do.
sand bobcat
lol, i read this blog post once that was talking about how bolt action is a game where you can't play historical battles on, because you run into situations where like, infantry literally can't shoot across a bridge that was historically hard to take because you can Just Shoot Across It
adjusting my bridge model to be 10 metres long in-scale so you can actually overwatch it
sudden halo
This came up in the other chat, but my personal definition of wargames sort of specifically requires trying to accurately model battles (either historical or fictional).
orchid leafBOT
i think free measure as an aid for ToTM is a underrated use of mini's and tokens but like that's just us
sleek trail
You can still have a game-ass game
But it can also be about the kind of feel of that war
sudden halo
Not that I try to impose that or use it in conversation, since I know it's not the common usage of the word, but it's sort of the distinction between trying to make a good game or making a good tool
sleek trail
Idk if warhammer, for example
Actually feels like war in the 41st millenium
Infinity i think does feel like weird cyberpunk cold war black ops
sand bobcat
yeah, 40k is like, the least diegetic game in the world.
orchid leafBOT
Nah the least digetic wargame is chess IMO
sand bobcat
i feel like 40k is notable on this front for having pages and pages of semi-fluffed options and rules that all work out to nonsense on the table
a low-detail game is different from a game that aggressively demonstrates its setting inaccuracy
native portal
RE: realism or like a sense of scale, I like No End In Sight's solution of infinite ranges with LoS being the main thing
sleek trail
Chess is abstract. 40k isnt
sand bobcat
NEIS is cool.
native portal
because for platoon-level/firefight dudes, the range is Yes
sleek trail
RE: realism or like a sense of scale, I like No End In Sight's solution of infin...
Kill team also does this except for pistols
native portal
noice
sleek trail
Im probably gonna do it with rangebands in my game
sand bobcat
i liked the author's note that even on a 4x4 the "encounter" range of NEIS is "oh shit they're literally on top of us" IRL
sleek trail
Cause i still like positioning
native portal
i liked the author's note that even on a 4x4 the "encounter" range of NEIS is "o...
Yeah, same with Chain of Command
it's the initial contact between elements
sand bobcat
RE infinity - one of the things that annoyed me is how the diegesis of the game mechanics really falls apart as you get better at it
they have, recently, started introducing units that don't immediately die if they see an enemy and it's not their turn
sleek trail
Yes
sand bobcat
HOWEVER, there's a lot of very good/tense hidden information and stuff that enforces the importance of angles/keyholes/etc.
sand bobcat
i was a tag player back when Fatality L2 was "flat 10% chance per attack die that you crit in almost all modifier situations, and crits auto-wound"
i was very sad.
sleek trail
God that was so fucking funny
sand bobcat
so eventually I will get back to writing my rewrite of my never-coming-out mech wargame, but something I think I'm going to take seriously and incorporate is another thing from that article, which is "real terrain is never as flat as a wargaming table" https://deltavector.blogspot.com/2015/12/game-design-60-movement-shooting-ratios.html
sand bobcat
it's really good. this guy has a lot of solid wargame design thoughts
by "incorporate" I mean that one way to rethink the whole "max weapon ranges" thing is to instead use terrain uneven-ness as an explicit factor in game mechanics/modifiers
EG: my game is going to have hit location tables for models; models will get hull-down cover past a universal X range regardless of physical obstruction, because [it's good for gameplay and] the ground is not actually flat like the table is
doing this instead of having assault rifle bullets disappear at 24" and having sniper rifle bullets disappear after 48"
sand bobcat
movement based on enemy sight, or?
native portal
Nah, just it's played on a regular board often
but infantry move 4
Tanks move ~8
and shooting distance for infantry is also like uhh
4ish
hollow crypt
Maybe its "objectively" worse but its like vinyl, for me.
ah see, but vinyl is better
no I will not listen to science I'm right
native portal
Leg infantry can move about 400m a turn, and their effective range is also 400m (max 600m)
hollow crypt
oh FFoT is almost so interesting to me
native portal
Tanks and other vehicles move between 600-1km a turn, and their range can be uhh big
sand bobcat
bvr,
native portal
the effective range of a modern tank gun is like 2400m
sand bobcat
ah.
native portal
max in FFoT up to like 3600m
similarly ATGMs have historical ranges too
with 1" or 1cm being 100m
depending on what ground scale you want to use
native portal
nah a TOW has a 100-3800m range depending on model
sand bobcat
mm.
native portal
Don't fight in cities
please don't
(also the OW is for overwatch lmao, they're not in pain)
sand bobcat
but i love exclusively using infantry. that's why i play 32mm
(this is unfair, the tanks are there, they just might as well be glued to the infantry models.)
have you ever played Advanced Squad Leader
native portal
have you ever played Advanced Squad Leader
weirdly despite loving VASSAL, no
it seems very very complex
sand bobcat
i'm sure it's a dinosaur in our modern era of "you can just play a video game". I will occasionally do an image search and get anxiety about the 6+ chits stacked on a single hex
and of course, I found someone writing a blog post about how they were quitting ASL because it was unrealistic
fallen rune
ASL is super complicated
fallen rune
and of course, I found someone writing a blog post about how they were quitting ...
I think at that point just join the army haha
sand bobcat
going to officer school for the Real Deal
but yeah their specific complaint was that command and control is nonexistent
it would probably sell negative copies, but i wonder if someone has ever tried doing something like, making a video game of it to stack hidden information onto its pre-existing mechanics
you probably just play Combat Mission: Red Thunder instead I guess
(which is a game I'm curious about but I don't have 60usd for curiosity's sake. especially not these days.)
spring geyser
no actualy this can be resolved with good grid references
grid references are ugly
sudden halo
ASL at a base level is not as terribly complicated as it's made out to be.
There's something very nostalgic about stacking chits on a board that's the size of an 8.5x11 sheet.
But it definitely got out of control and they made no effort to rein it in.
sand bobcat
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/68/73/03/6873036c596990a3f62b1ae0a9ef529f.jpg holy shit, does that tank have a chit that you rotate to represent the turret.
sand bobcat
But it definitely got out of control and they made no effort to rein it in.
I can believe that. It was super popular for a long time and they made like 500 expansions
sudden halo
Same with Starfleet Battles. Or Battletech to a lesser extent.
spring geyser
the effective range of a modern tank gun is like 2400m
yeah for my hard sf wargame im thinking of either scaling it up to 1 inch = 100 meters or just going with "anyone can shoot anything they can see"
sudden halo
Semi complex games that got buried under more and more rules being added.
spring geyser
you already have to Spot targets before shooting at them
sand bobcat
my favourite solution is "range = inaccuracy", so bullets don't disappear but you have plenty of room to force gameplay into the game
native portal
my favourite solution is "range = inaccuracy", so bullets don't disappear but yo...
Hot take but if you place a chit on top of another chit I think it should legally explode
sand bobcat
lmfao
spring geyser
well not quite anything they can see, the effective range on infantry-issue pulse lasers in the setting is around 1 kilometer
sand bobcat
you already have to Spot targets before shooting at them
depending on your spotting mechanics, you could have spotting get more difficult with distance, and/or have spotting get lost when units move
native portal
if you place three or more chits on top of each other you have to eat it like a tiny cardboard burger and make 'mmmm' sounds
sand bobcat
on top of accuracy vs distance etc.
native portal
otherwise you're banned
What I'm trying to say here is please don't make me play jenga to see what the fuck is going on
spring geyser
and also maybe a loud notice in the rulebook of "USE MORE LOS BLOCKING TERRAIN THAN YOU OTHERWISE WOULD"
sudden halo
Speaking on weird indie wargames, here's a conversion of a civil war ruleset to legend of the galactic heroes where 1" = 1 light second and a stand is 500-1000 spaceships
https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgameexpansion/402981/legend-galactic-heroes-fleet-battles
I might send the dude the $20 or whatever he's asking on eBay for a copy.
spring geyser
i am also considering just doing a smaller scale though
sand bobcat
and also maybe a loud notice in the rulebook of "USE MORE LOS BLOCKING TERRAIN T...
i will say that I think it'll be good to at least assume that the terrain itself is a bit abstract
this is a very recent conclusion of mine but i've played so many games with long rangebands, and I love it, but they all become incredibly tense even with a shit-ton of terrain
left onyx
I think at that point just join the army haha
Offer services as a Kriegspiel referee
spring geyser
hmhm
orchid leafBOT
I do love FKS and it's abilaty to be a wargame and a TTRPG at the same time
sand bobcat
let me regale you all about how i was erasing enemy mechs with my Hunting Naga from my deployment zone because apparently, unless you're an epic gamer, you don't actually look down at the table to see if your models are visible and out of cover
spring geyser
if i did make it somewhat smaller scale I think I could also shift to doing 28mm scale which might be favored by my artist friends who are interested in contributing models
idk
sand bobcat
you could still have a world and then make a game out of it. or like, make/test a game and then tweak the world from there. i'm trying the latter angle this time around.
spring geyser
yeah im fulling willing to tweak the world for the sake of the game
flat crow
i feel im weird cuz id love to make a world and it have like minis and stuff
but no game
just pure hobby setting and minis
sand bobcat
maschinen krieger 😌
flat crow
the fucked up part though is id still want them small lol
sand bobcat
they did make a game system or two but it was a "kitbash shit together" magazine series first and foremost
flat crow
and like on bases
spring geyser
lol
flat crow
cuz i like bases
spring geyser
make dioramas 😌
sand bobcat
i think it's reasonable. people do model dioramas/small pedestals for their models a bunch too
flat crow
and to be clear i know that sounds silly
no yeah
like im a warhammer fan and im almost all hobby
i just think up schemes and plan out like dioramas and shit
fallen rune
Offer services as a Kriegspiel referee
Yeah that’s valid
spring geyser
but anyways company scale as it is I had a fun idea for infantry units being "Sections" composed of multiple "Fireteams" on separate bases
sort of like in between "base the whole unit together" and "individually base every guy"
fallen rune
if i did make it somewhat smaller scale I think I could also shift to doing 28mm...
Ultimately I think the driver for model size is both desired scale and ease of access
spring geyser
and being able to constitute a Section out of a variety of Fireteams
fallen rune
My unreasonable hot take is that wargames should all be Bn scale or bigger but I’m Extremely Hypocritical about this
sand bobcat
Bn?
fallen rune
Battalion sorry
sand bobcat
how many guys,
fallen rune
~600
spring geyser
that's like for a 6mm scale wargame lol
fallen rune
Usually yeah
sand bobcat
oh you'd probably have to do the "paint combs" thing at 600 guys
fallen rune
There’s some 10mm ones
sand bobcat
well maybe not, 6mm infantry, you can put like 12 on a 40mm
RE sections: i like infantry teams. heavy gear blitz does that, though I could talk hours about HGB's strengths and weaknesses
orchid leafBOT
Technicaly Btech scales up to batallion size but that's more for teams
orchid leafBOT
But like while one of our partners has done it, they say it took a week of 4 hour game sessions.
fallen rune
Technicaly Btech scales up to batallion size but that's more for teams
40K technically does too but it’s similarly huge team game stuff
hollow crypt
Speaking on weird indie wargames, here's a conversion of a civil war ruleset to ...
honestly I deeply appreciate the willingness to acknowledge what the combat in that show is like lol
fallen rune
Dirtside and Epic are the only explicitly Bn+ sized wargames I know much about
spring geyser
also going to eventually include in my Scenarios section a bit of advice: "if there's no reason not to stratnuke the target it would probably just be stratnuked instead of fighting over it"
hollow crypt
My unreasonable hot take is that wargames should all be Bn scale or bigger but I...
honestly I totally get this
like
I love the really itty bitty scale wargames
where the people are small and the maps are big
fallen rune
Same
fallen rune
They don’t make the modeler in me happy but they make the overall view of the game look better
hollow crypt
though again, big hypocrite mode because the only wargame I can uncritically say I like is uh
gaslands
spring geyser
28mm looks great if it's small scale
fallen rune
I wanna see no man’s land/the infantrymans 500 meters on the table haha
hollow crypt
yess
spring geyser
wh40k armies are way too big for 28mm lol
hollow crypt
it is understood
fallen rune
I like Dirtside but it’s ancient and obscure
hollow crypt
honestly FFoT appeals to me mainly because of how small the units are
fallen rune
And it’s one of those “source your own minis” wargames which is tricky to sell people on
sand bobcat
gaslands is based.
fallen rune
yeah im aiming for 15mm scale for this one
15mm sounds good
orchid leafBOT
I think that like 28mm works for WHFB and other mass rank and flank games but for more modern stuff you need smaller unit sizes unleess you do some weird stuff wiht range
spring geyser
im just wondering whether to keep the "1 inch = 50 meters" scaling or go to "1 cm = 50 meters"
sand bobcat
And it’s one of those “source your own minis” wargames which is tricky to sell p...
honestly i'm pessimsitic on having anyone play any wargame, lol. I moved to a two-city area with like 6 people who play heavy gear and I get to play once a month
orchid leafBOT
you have our attention
CYAN (october edition) [he/him] ↩️
hollow crypt
Speaking on weird indie wargames, here's a conversion of a civil war ruleset to ...
okay I also went to the Fire and Fury website and uh
yikes
"We give history a second chance" is a bad look for a company that makes only civil war and WW2 games
spring geyser
omfg
sand bobcat
god.
hollow crypt
im just wondering whether to keep the "1 inch = 50 meters" scaling or go to "1 c...
1cm
do it
native portal
you give WHAT NOW?
fallen rune
honestly i'm pessimsitic on having anyone play any wargame, lol. I moved to a tw...
My area is funny because I think the wargame scene is
- Warhammer
- naval historicals
sand bobcat
lol
hollow crypt
aw I wish there were naval historicals here
flat crow
my perspective is warhammer and like multiple weird skirmish/indies
hollow crypt
I mean there probably are but I haven't found any
spring geyser
im just wondering whether to keep the "1 inch = 50 meters" scaling or go to "1 c...
the latter would make The Standard Wargame Table represent a roughly 6km by 9km area
hollow crypt
the latter would make The Standard Wargame Table represent a roughly 6km by 9km ...
extremely based
sand bobcat
i do have some battletech players locally so I need to keep in touch with them (not for CBT, for AS)
flat crow
that and the melange of various scifi/fantasy/etc games
spring geyser
honestly that doesn't sound bad if your standard infantry can shoot just over 1km
fallen rune
you have our attention
So dirtside’s deal is that it’s basically an old stab at making a wargame for general military sf
orchid leafBOT
we have not relay looked into what the local wargaming sceen was seince we stoped playing compatative Mech-Clix when the site for the ELO rankings got shut down.
fallen rune
It’s fairly Cold War in space but also pretty modular
left onyx
How ancient is it? 90s?
orchid leafBOT
Oh that dose sounds intersting, we have been enjoying Nebulus wich is coaldwar boats in space, so that sounds like it should work for us. and we have no fear of chit stacks
spring geyser
actually at 1 inch = 50m, 1 km range makes the Standard Wargame Infantry Range of ~20 inches
hollow crypt
oh yknow what I've always wanted to try? Ogre
sand bobcat
Dirtside II (1993)
hollow crypt
I don't actually know anything about the mechanics but it seems very cool
fallen rune
Yeah 90s
spring geyser
but yeah a lot of stuff will effectively just have "range: if you can see it"
left onyx
actually at 1 inch = 50m, 1 km range makes the Standard Wargame Infantry Range o...
Also note that at this scale a human model is 1 mm tall
orchid leafBOT
Same for us TBH. our first boss kept the reprint microgame box in the shop and always siad that on some slow day he would teach us to play but that never happend
TronTheAllmighty (He/They) ↩️
sand bobcat
i have the microprint 😌
spring geyser
Also note that at this scale a human model is 1 mm tall
yeah, the models would obviously be not quite to scale with distances
hollow crypt
Same for us TBH. our first boss kept the reprint microgame box in the shop and ...
one of the game stores back in my hometown has a copy but it's like, 60 dollars and I can't justify that to myself
orchid leafBOT
Barc do you have the one wiht colection of pyramid magazeen aracles added to the rule book?
Barcode ↩️
fallen rune
sand bobcat
OGRE leaves a strong first impression but I think you have to get into the expansion stuff (GEV) to have long-term fun with it
hollow crypt
So dirtside’s deal is that it’s basically an old stab at making a wargame for ge...
this seems extremely cool
sudden halo
"We give history a second chance" is a bad look for a company that makes only ci...
Good Lord. I wasn't aware of that, yikes
hollow crypt
I am very interested in this
left onyx
yeah, the models would obviously be not quite to scale with distances
That or you abandon miniatures for infantry and use chits
orchid leafBOT
The digtal version is only 39.99, wich is like to muxh for us to justafie
TronTheAllmighty (He/They) ↩️
hollow crypt
chits chits chits
sand bobcat
https://i.imgur.com/rpQWk3s.jpg i have whichever version this is,
hollow crypt
who needs minis
left onyx
Hobby painters
native portal
I like minis but I hate painting
sand bobcat
i tell myself i hate painting but i just psyche myself out about it
also it takes too long.
orchid leafBOT
Hemm that;s a later reprint then the one we saw, dose it have the bit "on fuzzy wuzzy math" in it?
sudden halo
I love painting except when I hate painting, which is often.
sand bobcat
i'd check, violet, but i'm so fucking wiped
i am currently trying to convince myself to paint for a bit (sorry)
orchid leafBOT
resonable, we have been looking for that articale for like the last year now
fallen rune
this seems *extremely* cool
It’s been a bit since I looked at it but it’s got some neat stuff in the rules, it’s alternative activations, it has really in-depth unit quality and morale rules
sudden halo
I can't do an okay job painting, at least not at 28mm, I have to go all out and take forever. One of the reasons I like smaller scales, especially like 6mm is it forces me to not give as much of a fuck.
orchid leafBOT
but tacke care of your self first
fallen rune
(There’s 5 morale states, units track both their quality and the quality of their officer)
sand bobcat
oh, I'm pretty sure that there are no articles - the rulebook is just some setting stuff and then the rules
fallen rune
Thankfully tank crews don’t bail out in the future
orchid leafBOT
Ahh damm, oh well.
sand bobcat
tank crews are magnetized
i got unreasonably pouty about damage effects in dirtside being a blind draw from a bag
orchid leafBOT
TBH i would add that in as like "hazardious envioment traning" but like it's still good
sand bobcat
i will NOT put down the fact that taking Damage Type X means someone else has less of a chance of taking that damage type
fallen rune
It’s sort of abstracted but yeah it’s a very tactile mechanic
Though afaik chits just go back in the pot
So the odds don’t change action to action
sand bobcat
oh, nice.
hollow crypt
it does explicitly say that, yeah
spring geyser
That or you abandon miniatures for infantry and use chits
already going to note in my rules that the bases (which are what matter) are a representation of the general area the unit occupies (whether it's infantry or vehicle)
orchid leafBOT
Blind bags are relay good IMO, after loving TROKIA!'s inative we think they are highly underutalized
spring geyser
i use blind bags for activation order
admittedly stolen almost wholesale from Bolt Action
spring geyser
although I split it into an Orders Phase and an Autonomous Actions Phase where only some of your Action Dice represent actual orders
sand bobcat
iirc d10s were pretty popular in the late era of simulation wargames. but if it uses d8s or d12s or wahtever that's possibly weird
hollow crypt
the drones thing is an impressive level of foresight, I must say
hollow crypt
iirc d10s were pretty popular in the late era of simulation wargames. but if it ...
yeah d6, d8, and d10
sand bobcat
uh, to bring something up from earlier - i like the idea of hex coordinates on a game that is going to be on hex grids, but something i forgot about the hex reference thing is that it's not multi-mapsheet friendly
i think most battletech games are on two mapsheets, but they're also designed in a way to encourage you to mix and match, reorient them etc. To do 3-coordinate hex stuff across re-orientable sheets you would need to have, i dunno, a collection of clear plastic sheets that have the coordinates written on them, and then lay them on top of your boards.
hollow crypt
I think battletech's a little unique in that regard, but it is also a very good system
sand bobcat
this also doesn't work any more if you have 3D terrain (battletech is often played with modelled elevation) etc.
oh, yeah, not to say that battletech is like, tightly designed or what not. But it's something that would get in the way of most games unless you give up on terrain or have a singular table setup
trail fulcrum
I want vector 3 to work
But like
It just kinda doesn't and I'm sad 😦
Well it does work
But like in a very
hollow crypt
@fallen rune fuck dirtside's really cool
trail fulcrum
Hmmmm
hollow crypt
I have been sold very hard on this by the book
trail fulcrum
Not sure how to describe it
hollow crypt
it is written in such a charming way too
native portal
Didn't they also write Full Thrust?
which is like, the same deal but for space combat
hollow crypt
yeah I believe so
sleek trail
Dirtside?
native portal
what a pair of bangers
sleek trail
Ive heard food things about full thrust
flat crow
btw suki did you see the silly fantasy napoleonic thing?
fallen rune
Dirtside?
It’s a 6mm wargame from the 90s with pretty solid rules
Designed for generic mil sf
native portal
btw suki did you see the silly fantasy napoleonic thing?
I did and I dunno if I like it
sand bobcat
i wonder if i should learn it sometime because dirtside comes up reasonably often when i grouse about wanting to use my whatever-scale models
native portal
I feel like 'Napoleonic forces all on one side vs evil ones' is Fine
but I honestly think just leaning way the fuck into it would be cooler
I dunno
I can think of Cooler Vibes, that's all
flat crow
cuz id recently been getting into turnip28 and had the idea for werewolf old guard for it
and lo and behold
ill probably literally grab the minis just to use in in turnip28
native portal
also don't make the brits celtic, that's dumb, make them demon worshipping villains
they're literally the british empire
flat crow
ill fully admit the model design to sorta scratch a like what if warhammer but napoleonic for me
which im into
sand bobcat
i'm still mad that "konflikt 47" is a bolt action expansion
native portal
give me a fucking East India Governor with fucking Moloch stood next to him and a pair of demonic bodyguards
sand bobcat
i want a dieselpunk ruleset that mostly obeys reasonable infantry tactics.
flat crow
also im not really interested at all in the british bits
sand bobcat
and also isn't so fucking big that my mech has to hold hands with the infantry it's cavalry-ing for.
flat crow
im all french with my fixations and the napoleonics
native portal
I dunno what vibe I would pick for french
native portal
On the one hand, napoleon's meteoric rise to power is prime 'demonic contract' shit
flat crow
like sorta dial up both "were revolutionists but now were a military dictatorship"
native portal
but then the levee en masse stuff has cool other vibes you could run with
flat crow
somehow
spring geyser
the drones thing is an impressive level of foresight, I must say
everyone's been saying drones are the future for like 20 years or more
flat crow
i mean fuckit
make napoleone dead but like a god
to the french
like bonaparte warrior priests or some shit
yes i know my warhammer is showing
spring geyser
i'm still mad that "konflikt 47" is a bolt action expansion
what's the criticism of bolt action
sand bobcat
what's the criticism of bolt action
me no like huge models.
spring geyser
ah
flat crow
either way knight old guard wielding flamberge lives rent free in my head
native portal
what's the criticism of bolt action
my criticism of bolt action is that it's a 40k geneline game
and doesn't do enough to fix the issues of its inheritors
It's still a solid game
sand bobcat
https://spartans.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/Xenos_Rampant_01-scaled.jpg this (allegedly) Xenos Rampant photo activates my imagination along the lines of "nonsense pulp infantry moving through cover while the Totally Not An AT-AT provides suppression"
native portal
put some clothes on those models or I'll commit arson
sand bobcat
bro there are like 3 pictures for me to work with here 😩
spring geyser
that reminds me i need to figure out how im gonna mechanically classify my setting's mechs
flat crow
put some clothes on those models or I'll commit arson
me with the nephelim in napoleonica be like
sand bobcat
call them "mecha-nized infantry". (don't)
flat crow
call them calvalry
spring geyser
SDEF doesn't even use "proper" mechs they just have Bigger Cyborgs
flat crow
i only somewhat mean this as a joke lol
sand bobcat
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-6kEDHJ1nr_8/XFGrcsiX2mI/AAAAAAAAFM0/36GNeqCGHq0gY5UelUBXdN8agIIcYCvsgCLcBGAs/s1600/DSCF9256.JPG okay this is better. infantry can actually have some amount of space between them and the vehicle
flat crow
my napoleonic nerd brain is saying call them grenadiers but the association with that word is so muddled now lol
sand bobcat
SDEF doesn't even use "proper" mechs they just have Bigger Cyborgs
"light tank" is archaic but I feel like it makes sense. That sort of thing in Heavy Gear feels like an IFV that can't carry infantry.
flat crow
neo-grenadiers
spring geyser
they fulfill a very "heavy infantry" role
flat crow
well that is in theory what grenadiers were lol
sand bobcat
Super Heavy Infantry (SHIs) (airdropping them is taking a SHIt) (i cannot help but sabotage myself)
spring geyser
lmfaoooo
orchid leafBOT
Cataphracts might work as well
left onyx
put some clothes on those models or I'll commit arson
“The neckline looks worse from top-down, I swear!” (The only angle to view models on the table)
flat crow
i had the thought of a few terms that are roman but then my brain lurched at the idea of me suggesting roman anything
gallowglass
spring geyser
ideally it would be something that reflects their origin as "work suits for hostile environments" where it's often more convenient to put a dude in a cockpit than in an EVA suit
sand bobcat
Armoured Infantry (AI) (massive acronym collision)
sand bobcat
you could also just call them mechs and then specify what role they take up in the lore
spring geyser
i did consider just ripping from patlabor and calling them Labors lol
sand bobcat
"PDWs" aren't personal defense weapons, they're SMGs that fire huge bullets
flat crow
lol
sand bobcat
pepper spray is a personal defense weapon
native portal
I hear 'Exo' used a lot for work stuff
spring geyser
incidentally the PFFP's mechs will break from their general glass cannon tendency as a faction by being really heavily armored (because they're industrial suits with bolted-on armor, they're made to carry huge loads in the first place so you can bolt a ton of armor on them)
sand bobcat
i think people try too hard to call mechs something else. that being said, I plan to use LCV ("Legged Combat Vehicle") if I ever do a tryhard small-mechs game (I like to fantasize about making a game that's Heavy Gear But Better)
hollow crypt
if it's a work suit, 'rig' might also work
spring geyser
rig is so good omfg
past pebble
I think "mech" is a bit of a load bearing word in military parlance so it may be good to move away from it for well, mechs
being short for mechanized and all
sand bobcat
fair.
past pebble
Mech_A_ though 
sand bobcat
(imagine my disappointment seeing "mech infantry" in advance wars)
sand bobcat
riginf,
flat crow
or hell heavy rigger infantry
here to commit violence in my big rig
and then its appreviate to like HRI or something
and somehow grunts started calling them truckers
spring geyser
lmfao
spring geyser
"exoframe" is a decent one in terms of "generic sci fi buzzwords"
sand bobcat
in a setting where they call mechs mechs you could probably go with CM (Combat Mech) for the military ones.
flat crow
ive accidentally enamored myself wit hthe idea of heavy exo infantry that are just space truckers
past pebble
Armored Fighting Walker 🤔
flat crow
like just stupid anime conceit of for some reason only truckers can pilot them and everything
orchid leafBOT
Space truckers VS pirates might be a fun game TBH
spring geyser
I think I might do a funny and make Elysian Commonwealth and Popular Front mechs be treated as vehicles and SDEF ones be treated as infantry
because again, SDEF equivalents are just Big Cyborg
flat crow
Space truckers VS pirates might be a fun game TBH
space truckers vs space sheep warrior culture
sudden halo
Tanks were a nonsense word attributed to a vehicle. I feel like just coming up with any random thing is as believable as trying to come up with a term that makes sense for mechs.
flat crow
well i think tank was like due to early designs beign describe like an armored tank
i think
sand bobcat
iirc it was a codename thing
left onyx
The workers were told they were making water haulers
orchid leafBOT
Yeah for the Mesopotamian theter, not the western front
sudden halo
I'm partial to "extra heavy infantry" for mechs
flat crow
lol
sudden halo
Super duper extra heavy for bigger mechs.
sand bobcat
UIs (Unarmoured Infantry) (code name)
past pebble
just innocent men
sand bobcat
i think i agree that shit like "rig", "frame", "mount" I think are all fairly common mech terms that people will work with
"walker" is the real "I am a western author writing about mechs" one
spring geyser
randomly in my youtube recs and only vaguely related but rear-turret designs that have the driver separated from the rest of the crew are immensely funny to me
clear shadow
Jms for short
Referred to as "JiMS" by the infantry
sand bobcat
that guy's in detention
past pebble
kicked too many times by the commander
sand bobcat
lol
spring geyser
Referred to as "JiMS" by the infantry
a japanese writer would do this unironically
sand bobcat
i think the weirdest thing was, on the heavy gear server, seeing people like...use "mecha" for humanoid mechs and "walkers" for non-humanoids
we get up to some cosmic arguments over there
imo, walker is good for intent but sucks for acronyms. Still, if "walker" is the rulebook term then you can have factions use whatever names for their own mechs
fallen rune
That scans but feels weird to argue about
Uh I mean it’s a mech if it has a head and a walker if it doesn’t
flat crow
i think this is due to exposure routing
walker is applied to at st
mech is usually gundam as first exposure
sand bobcat
makes sense. also a lot of western media calls 'em "walkers" i think
sand bobcat
p sure command and conquer calls them that etc.
sand bobcat
if it can't run it's a walker-
flat crow
mech is less common verbage in western media historically
past pebble
iirc non-humanoids in heavy gear are striders but it's been a while since I opened a heavy gear book
spring geyser
western sci fi writers irrationally hate mechs because they're one of the signposts of "unrealistic sci fi" they've decided on in lieu of developing an understanding of actual science
orchid leafBOT
IDK about that, like we were exposed to mechs in the western context like problay befoer we watched empire strikes back. but also like we grew up with D&D and dragon mags in the house so ours was just reading articals on B-tech
spring geyser
also weird xenophobia about japan
especially when they start talking about "Western Mechs™️ (realistic)" vs. "Eastern Mechs™️ (unrealistic)"
"Mechs in Japanese sci fi are basically just magic superheroes [shows image from Mobile Suit Gundam]"
orchid leafBOT
the funny thing about that is they used to do it with NGE gif's
sand bobcat
iirc non-humanoids in heavy gear are striders but it's been a while since I open...
yea, Gears for the peoplemechs, Striders for the crewed non-humanoids
japan is responsible for the best of both ends of that spectrum, really. i still want a steel battalion PC game
orchid leafBOT
Like yeah Unit-01 is not going to act like a machean it dose not take much more then a glace at the anime to see that
spring geyser
ime japanese milsf is generally "harder" than western milsf
in terms of the science
sand bobcat
honestly, a lot of the complaints are just plain old uninformed
spring geyser
western milsf writers will actively refuse to learn anything about science and scream at you if you tell them plasma weapons are impossible
then proceed to try to lecture you about how mechs are unrealistic
fallen rune
But - oh nvm I misread that sentence
flat crow
lol
sand bobcat
my pet peeve is when people tell me that handmechs make Practical Sense for Climbing, while the mech designs in question can barely reach around their fuckin torsos to hold a gun with two hands
flat crow
i just like things to look cool ultimately
sand bobcat
spring geyser
people sent me actual death threats on twitter for saying halo was unrealistic western milsf fans are completely detached from reality
orchid leafBOT
realisem is good in moderation, much like moderation
spring geyser
oh im not upset about it it was darkly hilarious that it upset them so much
sand bobcat
twitter is a dark place. sounds like it was at least not a huge mess?
flat crow
imagine thinking halos is realistic lol
sand bobcat
halo is funny because it painstakingly justifies most game mechanics
fallen rune
I'm on team mechs are unrealistic but that isn't to say that most mil sf is remotely realistic
sand bobcat
john halo is canonically strong enough to flip a tank
spring geyser
yeah the thing I always mock about milsf geeks talking realism is "mechs are unrealistic. oh, those ubiquitous dropships that are somehow capable of transatmospheric flight despite being mostly not fuel tank and not even being able to fly supersonic? totally realistic"
past pebble
Halo is inherently mecha, in this essay I will
sand bobcat
the mantis is an incredibly cool mech, i will say that.
closest i'll ever get to playing steel battalion. 😢
sand bobcat
I'm on team mechs are unrealistic but that isn't to say that most mil sf is remo...
i think there's this kind of horseshoe effect where like...a lot of games and aesthetics have focused on LOOKING realistic, which has had this horrible effect of making out realworld military shit to be cool while still being a largely nonsense depiction of warfare
fallen rune
yeah
orchid leafBOT
I mean what are hunters but mechs for worms
kojima ↩️
fallen rune
"Realism" often means "photobashed [current generation military looking thing]" regardless of the engineering
sand bobcat
mhm.
spring geyser
yeah exactly
i did a whole thread about how "when people say 'laser weapons are unrealistic in sci fi' what they actually mean is 'laser weapons are for babies, i'm too manly for them'"
sand bobcat
do people dislike lasers? aren't they like. already semi-plausible AMS
hollow crypt
they think laser weapons aren't manly because there's no recoil
spring geyser
do people dislike lasers? aren't they like. already semi-plausible AMS
yes
hollow crypt
I have no proof but I believe that wholeheartedly
past pebble
it's very funny that people don't like gundam beams when modern gundam has some of the best depictions of beam weapons today
spring geyser
people will come up with the most contrived, silliest reasons to justify claiming laser weapons are unrealistic
fallen rune
hard sf tank (realistic)
sand bobcat
GBO2 was not a good game but the feel of the Beam Weapons really inspired me to think more about that kind of Not Real Energy Weapon
spring geyser
despite being a literal thing in use today
fallen rune
unrealistic fantasy vehicle (probably a mecha in disguise)
orchid leafBOT
I do want more deflageration beems, that are just wide aprature IR lasers
fallen rune
they do look really cool
spring geyser
yeah
past pebble
hard sf tank (realistic)
my twenty cell missile tank (immediate cookoff)
hollow crypt
unrealistic fantasy vehicle (probably a mecha in disguise)
hehe what
what is this lmao
spring geyser
obiekt 279
hollow crypt
this is some cursed anti-top-aspect-attack tank isn't it
sand bobcat
it was a, what, NBC protection testbed isn't it?
spring geyser
spring geyser
this is some cursed anti-top-aspect-attack tank isn't it
no, it's meant to survive the blast of tacnukes
spring geyser
it was a, what, NBC protection testbed isn't it?
yeah
hollow crypt
that's even dumber I love it
fallen rune
It was an experimental tank design intended for a nuclear battlefield yeah
hollow crypt
oh hey it had AC
sand bobcat
we talked about OGRE already but the ogre is a funny sci fi tank
hollow crypt
honestly that's kinda impressive for the 50s
spring geyser
it was actually quite good, they didn't put it into production mostly because the doctrinal need for tanks that heavy evaporated
sand bobcat
vivi, can you put tank destroyers in your game for me
literally no fucking wargame will indulge my tank destroyer fetish
even when they make hovertanks, which can literally strafe, they end up just being tanks without tracks
i want a hovertankdestroyer!!!
fallen rune
my twenty cell missile tank (immediate cookoff)
I'm actually like 90% sure these are tankified battletech mechs
spring geyser
SDEF will have one unoffically named the "Cain" because the ECAF's MBT is called the Abel
fallen rune
on closer inspection
orchid leafBOT
Just play sweeden in a modern wargame 
Barcode ↩️
hollow crypt
the bottom right is 100% a hunchback
sand bobcat
on closer inspection
given the 400 loadouts and some of them being missiles and some of them being...laser-y...., it might be intended as a battletech proxy
fallen rune
Yeah I think that makes sense
spring geyser
vivi, can you put tank destroyers in your game for me
so yes i was already planning on it
past pebble
my only advice to you is to give some faction armor entirely based on shitcanned us army projects
sand bobcat
lol
hollow crypt
me emerging from my rathole
spring geyser
though the Cain will have a big ass proton lance on current planning instead of a projectile cannon
SDEF fucking loves proton lances
the x-ray rad scatter is a bonus to them
orchid leafBOT
Bremsstrahlung the crew into glowing jelly?
spring geyser
yes
past pebble
barcode asks for tank destroyers, the monkey's paw curls and this is put into development
sand bobcat
😢
the modern tank destroyer is a fuckin six wheeled weenie with an ATGM rack 😔
(of course: real war isn't cool, this is a good thing)
spring geyser
i am proud of SDEF's aesthetic niche of "cyborg faction that is not in fact the high tech faction"
trim quiver
cannot engage beyond line of sight
forward mounted weapon
meant to punch up against heavier tanks
LOSAT is a tank destroyer, if we want to embrace the cancelled late 80s military gear aesthetic
sand bobcat
i am proud of SDEF's aesthetic niche of "cyborg faction that is not in fact the ...
strogg! strogg! strogg!
spring geyser
lmao
sand bobcat
i mean strogg are high tech but they look like nine inch nails cover art
orchid leafBOT
Is this better or worse
Barcode ↩️
sand bobcat
god
hollow crypt
> cannot engage beyond line of sight
> forward mounted weapon
> meant to punch u...
...an antitank mine attached to the front of a tricycle is a tank destroyer?
we need an alignment grid now
fallen rune
Actually its only a tank destroyer if it was fielded in a TD battalion in WW2, otherwise its just sparkling anti-armor
spring geyser
SDEF just mostly sees nothing wrong with cyborgifying all their recruits (culturally this is viewed as mostly a bonus for enlisting anyways)
sand bobcat
btw battletech tanks are well beyond my wheelhouse but enough people have been hunting for bulldog proxies that i think this is a proxy for battletech's bulldog
why would you proxy the bulldog? well, https://i.ytimg.com/vi/fYCItQQGfno/maxresdefault.jpg
native portal
your bases have gained sentience
orchid leafBOT
that and b-tech has lax proxi rules
you can do some vary nice poorhammer stuff with b-tech as long as your not using the ture LOS alt rules
sand bobcat
yeah, it's a nice advantage of not being a tournament-heavy game (and classically being on a grid)
alpha strike has weird true-LOS rules which i reject because battletech miniatures have varied so fucking much in scale over 40 years
orchid leafBOT
Oh b-tech is one of thsoe games whare modulaing for advantage is just a given, and if you play clans your kinda expected to ignore it to an extent becouse 🤢 Honer
sand bobcat
i feel like i'd just want to borrow silhouette rules from infinity
your model is a prism defined by its base
spring geyser
2D LOS
2D LOS
2D LOS
accept no substitutes
orchid leafBOT
we don't know AS that well but in CBT, we do know that the cover mechanic is tied into the LOS, as in you miss if you roll a part of the mech that you don't have LOS to
ofcores it's simplafied for hexs but the true mesure version is fun for how fiddaly it is.
autumn sun
Malifaux uses Size and Base, with each model having both pre-defined in their entry. Terrain has listed heights which is compared to the model's size and base, so a ht2 model can take partial cover behind a size 1 wall (usually 1" tall). It's similar (I think?) to how Infinity does silhouettes, and you can honestly play the game using 2D terrain.
LOS is "can both sides of the base be drawn to the model without being obstructed? If so, cool. If not, it's partial or full cover depending on what's blocking it."
spring geyser
yeah that's what I was talking about with 2D LOS
autumn sun
It's great and I wish more games used that kind of system.
native portal
I hate line of sight rules
I don't think I've ever enjoyed them
they're SO crucial to balancing
autumn sun
I don't like true LOS.
"Get down to model level" okay but this is a spiky Dark Eldar in some ruins and I don't want to lose an eye here.
sleek trail
True los is a recipe for hostile modeling
left onyx
AKA "modeling for advantage"
But AIUI very few people bother even when it's perfectly legal
orchid leafBOT
Yeah it's varry much a thing that is an acepted norm in some games like b-tech, but also true LOS is an optional rule in that
but also b-tech is a grubby little game whare true LOS and random unit comps is a intended combanation
and shin kicking the other mechs is good and right
autumn sun
But AIUI very few people bother even when it's perfectly legal
I rarely saw anyone doing model for advantage, but it still brought up an unreasonable amount of arguments that often boiled down to "nuh uh you don't see my dude"
sudden halo
What counts as an appendage vs what counts as head or body and so forth.
orchid leafBOT
TBH what we saw in like the b-tech comunitywas thigns like having the mech with it's arm out a bit so it can shoot around conners, and hopefully not get shot becsoue you forgtot to protect it
sudden halo
Never mind "are we counting these windows as open for line of sight or are we considering this a solid wall"
sleek trail
In and out but not through my beloved
sudden halo
One of the things I really appreciate about Kill Team 2021 is that it very well defines the line of sight rules and really most of the free measure challenges.
sand bobcat
i like 3D LOS because i get up to this kind of Gaming https://i.imgur.com/h5Y5koz.jpg
taller cover can have a meaningful&diegetic use against stuff like those higher perches
spring geyser
yeah and there are ways to represent that in a 2D LOS system with a regimented system of "Height" or some such
sand bobcat
and then "model has a height value in inches, their base marks the start of the prism" solves the modelling nonsense
standardized bases or silhouette sizes (like malifaux and infinity do) is how you seal the deal, though heavy gear doesn't have standardized bases because they don't want to force old-timers to rebase their models
it used to be a hex game. between heavy gear and battletech, i think everyone who makes a grid game just decides ahead of time that their models must be twice the size of their grid cells
sleek trail
You can do something like silhouette sizes with nonstandard base sizing
Just make a height stat and its a cylinder/prism that tall
Just...not super standardized
But its doable
Doing that for the game im writing cause i want to steal turnip's range of base sizes to encourage kitbashing
sand bobcat
heavy gear blitz does that; each model has a Height even though they have huge ranges for accepted base sizes. I do think it's good to have standardized bases to ensure standardized play, but HGB has the baggage of older editions. If you're making a models-agnostic game you can run into even more problems trying to standardize things
flat crow
I just assume that's you all the time tbh
sand bobcat
True
past pebble
Sorry gear jockey but in the real world the strider WSO gets the girl
toxic trench
Wonder what zone raiders does
I keep reading this and thinking of the C&C3 unit
autumn sun
sleek trail
Indie+alternative, id say if its not indie its def alternative
maybe i should just edit the thread to say "not warhammer"
midnight vine
i've played it once and it was a blast
not played again cause of time constraints and such
left onyx
~~maybe i should just edit the thread to say "not warhammer"~~
Also not Battletech, which also has its own thread
left onyx
It has three if you count the empty thread that someone made not realizing a thread already existed
left onyx
Oh there's a naval wargame thread?
sleek trail
Given the dystopian wars thread
sleek trail
Oh there's a naval wargame thread?
sand bobcat
"non-GW wargames" with a pin elaborating "non-GW wargames that don't already have a thread dedicated to them"
tender wadi
Oh there's a naval wargame thread?
Yep, I tried making one, it's gotten
Some attention
spring geyser
I should actually add that in the setting I'm making my wargame for, everyone is more or less transhuman to different degrees, and SDEF doesn't have a monopoly on occasional biomechanical body horror
sand bobcat
#game-design-discussion is intended for when you're actively designing a wargame
spring geyser
I should post there too
sand bobcat
sorry, didn't mean to post it LIke That, lol
spring geyser
The main difference between the Elysians and the Oponskoyans in this regard is that Elysians are deeply suspicious of deviating too far from the human form while the Oponskoyans are very "humanity is obsolete"
The Elysians see augmentations that diverge too much from what they see as the human ideal as antisocial and a marker of poor social integration
Meanwhile their ruling class has gold filigree inlaid on their porcelain artificial skin
And stuff like that
They're both different forms of transhumanism sapped of any real liberatory potential
sleek trail
mods might disagree but as thread maker (a position of purely ceremonial value) i think posting about wargames in progress is valid here
provided, like any other discussion, it does not run roughshod over any ongoing convo
twin mountain
hell yeah please post about wargames everywhere
feel free to crosspost
post it here, game design, and tabletop even
especially if it's a project from a regular
as long as you're not spam pinging people I'd love to help signal boost all your work
native portal
Wargames are underrepped anyway
spring geyser
Six feet tall and mostly leg. Perfect, porcelain skin inlaid with gold filigree. The characters of her family name stamped onto the sclera of her eyes.
Custom-made dress uniform woven from the finest silk. A sidearm plated in platinum and engraved with so much detail it all blurs together.
Her mother paid for all that, of course. She paid for her officer's commission, too.
- A bit of prose I plan on sticking on the unit card for an Elysian Commonwealth officer
fallen rune
ooh
sleek trail
this is good lore
sleek trail
figured out a shooting/dice mechanic for my game
now to try and put it into page-words
roll however many d6 you have to shoot with your gun, opponent rolls however many d6 they have to shoot back, face to face higher rolls cancel lower ones, like infinity
theres no shooting goodness stats though. modifiers come in with rangebands, good rangebands are no modifier, poor ones is -1 to the max you are allowed to roll (so you cant roll 6s anymore, they get discarded), awful ones is -2
i like price is right rolling a lot
midnight vine
I'm not sure I fully understand, would have to see in action
twin mountain
I'm not sure I fully understand, would have to see in action
They roll 4d6 at a -1 range band. They roll {2, 3, 5, 6}. 6 is discarded so their final roll is {2, 3, 5}
midnight vine
yes that's not the part I don't get
twin mountain
@sleek trail for clarity, rather than using modifier syntax I recommend just listing what's dropped
Like drop 6s, drop 5+s
midnight vine
don't understand the face to face part
twin mountain
It's infinity AROs
midnight vine
yes, I've not played infinity
twin mountain
It's from the wargame infinity - when you shoot an enemy they can take an automatic reaction order to fire back
Both people shoot at each other and the dice results you roll essentially become speed
Faster shots hit first
midnight vine
ok what about cancelling lower ones
twin mountain
Depending on range bands and shooting skills, that changes how fast you can shoot and still hit
It's the speed thing I mentioned
If they shoot a 3 bullet and you shoot a 4 bullet, your 4 cancels their 3
Like an exceed stun
But if they shoot a 5 bullet, they cancel your 4
But if they shoot a 6 bullet, maybe that bullet just totally misses
So your 4 is fine
It's too quick a draw to be on target
It's honestly a very very elegant system
I really like it
I'd like infinity if it wasn't IGYG
midnight vine
Zzzz
sleek trail
<@251512349880614913> for clarity, rather than using modifier syntax I recommend...
Excellent suggestion, thank you!
sleek trail
I'd like infinity if it wasn't IGYG
The game im writing is in part AA infinity
So we'll see how that works out!
sand bobcat
🥺
Lumpy Man
honestly the original isn't particularly good looking either...I just saw a custom one a long while back that I really liked
sleek trail
Lovely lumpy man
sand bobcat
the Falke is a really cool design but because aircraft are kind of stupid in wargames I think I'd want to just buy the model kit instead.
twin mountain
The game im writing is in part AA infinity
sudden halo
Has anyone tried playing infinity with AA? Just everything the same except you swap who issues an order each time? Feels like it would work great right out of the gate.
It's been a long time since I played though. I may be missing some phases in N4
sand bobcat
i think it would immediately become a different game, honestly...it's also got some phase stuff that interferes with that (impetuous phase)
that's not to say that a better game wouldn't do that, but, yeah.
sudden halo
I was forgetting that phase. It certainly wouldn't feel the same as infinity does, but I don't know that it would be bad. My imagination has it as a net positive. Just do impetuous at the top of the round or something, or test without any units that use it.
As with anything like that you'd have to make some types of rulings on the spot and it wouldn't solve the cheerleader problem but I think it's worth giving a try. I don't know if I'll have time but my main wargaming opponent is in town and I've got some forces we could throw down with.
sand bobcat
yeah, i think it could work out... my initial instinct was to recoil mostly because I'm so used to how Infinity plays because you activate the way you do
but like if you just spend order tokens as usual it really shouldn't break on a fundamental level
the Suppressive Fire action might actually be usable
sudden halo
I mean a purpose built game like Gecko is doing would certainly be better, but I love the infinity range and want to use them.
sand bobcat
i definitely think it would be a less stressful game, lol
way too much of that fucking game is being afraid of getting erased because John Activeturn has a path to see too many guys one at a time
sudden halo
Part of infinitys appeal is the "watch Rambos whole action scene while we ignore the rest of the battlefield", but being able to say "oh my dude is gonna shoot back but actually good this time" in the middle of it would help a lot.
sand bobcat
it shouldn't be complicated phase-wise either because like, the real procedural difference between active and reactive turn is just "reactive player doesn't spend any resources" + "reactive player gets dogwater dice"
twin mountain
Has anyone tried playing infinity with AA? Just everything the same except you s...
It would be an extremely different game. Infinity isn't just igyg it's like mega igyg
You can keep chain activating the same unit
sudden halo
In terms of results, absolutely. I just think it would be a super easy thing to try out and see how it goes.
sand bobcat
oh, okay, one thing to keep in mind - action economy will change
conventionally, you generate orders at the start of your turn - this worsens the IGYGness of things because losing guys means that if you go second you also have fewer actions to work with
I think I'd recommend going through Order Generation Phase at the start of each round, alternating between both players, before anyone spends any orders
sand sonnet
You can keep chain activating the same unit
Achillies gets activated 10 times, everyone else is here to provide him with orders.
sand bobcat
you also have to think of a way to resolve Loss of Lieutenant, for which I'd recommend "you enter it when it's your turn to activate again, and that immediately removes any unspent Lieutenant orders"
sudden halo
Yeah, you'd be punished next round but not this round for your losses, unless you had some type of way to associate orders with units and discard them if they're unused, which seems like more trouble than it's worth.
Lieutenant seems easy enough though.
sand bobcat
oh, shit, okay, that's a major point of confusion - Loss of Lieutenant effectively turns Normal orders Irregular, so it will become necessary for you to leave generated orders beside their respective models, because this changed LoL rule means that "which regular order I've spent so far" will be important
technically that already matters if you have an Isolated model but bla bla bla
sudden halo
For an initial test, I'd say just do that the next round for simplicitys sake.
sand bobcat
yeah, i guess so long as a player doesn't spend any remaining LT orders, nothing should change while their LT is down.
sudden halo
In the end, you'd probably need to write a 2-3 page doc similar to the "how to play this with miniatures" docs they do for hex games.
But seems like all the challenges are super surmountable, just a matter of finding out of it's any fun.
sleek trail
I mean a purpose built game like Gecko is doing would certainly be better, but I...
The government doesnt want you to know this but u can always use minis from any range
That said i genuinely do love infinity
It might be my favorite wargame ive played
Its stupid and overly complex and hyper competitive
And takes a LOT of brainpower
But god i love it and all its stupid, almost objectively bad design choices
At some point i wanna try making an alternating activations order pool game
Because a lot of the feel of infinity is that ramboing. Not doing it for this one cause i already have a fucky action econ built in
And i know my limits
sudden halo
The government doesnt want you to know this but u can always use minis from any ...
Every game is minis agnostic if you want it to be! But I do like having a mostly consistent artstyle on the table.