RPG Book Club

[steep sun]

(I'm just moving this to the forum :)) The RPG book club is exactly what it says on the tin: a book club for ttrpg systems, modules, supplements, and other written works relating to ttrpgs.

I wanted to start this due to how many systems&supplements there are out there which I might not ever have time to run, but find interesting to read about still :). So why not start a book club dedicated to them!

The reading is preliminarily planned to be done in weekly increments, from Friday to Friday, where a book is first chosen through voting and depending on the length of the work it'll be perused over the course of one week, or be stretched out over several. It's about the journey, not the destination, so read at your pace and have fun with it :).

Every Friday I'll make a post asking about thoughts folk might have about what we've just read, and anything in particular which stood out to them. This may be mechanics, aspects of the setting, or excerpts of particularly interesting writing. Anything which piques your interest is fair game to bring up!

Additionally, over the course of the week one is obviously more than welcome to talk about the book outside of my posts as well! This is after all more than anything about having the chance to read and discuss together with others, so the more the merrier in terms of talks!

If you have any questions, feel free to ask! I'll try my best to respond in due time :).

Write your recommendations here: https://forms.gle/uRKPqiJ8GcvJiVHd9

Past weeks: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1x119ldr1LefGzpgZ67mQR9Ovy7GGVVO4cMk6cbwPUrY/edit?usp=drivesdk

For this first week I'll be choosing a few RPG systems I find interesting which one can vote between. For future weeks the choices will additionally include any book people mention they are interested in reading, which can be done by either saying it in this channel (feel free to ping me) or writing it as a response to this form: https://forms.gle/uRKPqiJ8GcvJiVHd9

1. Gubat Banwa Martial arts fantasy in the islands of revel and beauty. https://makapatag.itch.io/gubat-banwa

2. Butterfly Court A No Dice No Masters fantasy court intrigue game https://mishagw.itch.io/butterfly-court

3. Wanderhome A pastoral fantasy tabletop RPG https://possumcreekgames.itch.io/wanderhome

4. They Feed on Fear A Horror RPG where YOU play the HORROR!
CW: Body Horror ||https://alexei-vella.itch.io/they-feed-on-fear-a-horror-rpg||

Voting is done by reacting to this message with the number corresponding to the work, or works, you're interested in. The one with the most votes wins! The other ones however aren't discarded for eternity, and have the chance to be chosen in the future. On a tie the work is chosen in descending order on the list, unless folk change their mind.

If you don't have the book nor the money to purchase it, I'm tentatively fine with sharing my own copy for the purpose of reading for the book club (assuming this is fine to do). As always, please do support the writers if you enjoy their work!

Note: Voting concluded 8/10/2023. This text was posted here in full for posterity

---

The votes have been counted and the book of the week is: Wanderhome!

Wanderhome is a pastoral fantasy role-playing game about traveling animal-folk, the world they inhabit, and the way the seasons change. It is a game filled with grassy fields, mossy shrines, herds of chubby bumblebees, opossums in sundresses, salamanders with suspenders, starry night skies, and the most beautiful sunsets you can imagine.

You might be a tamarin who dances with small and forgotten gods, a leporine mail carrier who relies on moths to get packages where they belong, a little lizard with a big heart and a mysterious past, or a near-endless number of other thrilling possibilities. No matter what, we’re always travelers—animal-folk who go from village to village and get to see the length and breadth of all the world of Hæth. The seasons will change as we play, and we will change with them.

Personal note: Wanderhome is an indie darling which wears its inspirations on its sleeve, both in terms of what it wants to be but also with regards to what it isn't. In a world with so many works trying to outdo one another's grimness, Wanderhome instead look towards the quaint feasts of Redwall Abbey and the gentleness they exude. This is a game about making a world for people to live in.

Whilst the art and conceit of the game are what first piqued my interest in it, for those who have an eye more for the pure mechanics there are some items which may be of interest. The author themselves brings a lot of attention to the safety mechanics of the system and attempts at implementing something beyond the industry standard. In addition there's also the lack of dice and GM-agnostic structure of the game, which makes it interesting to see what is there in their stead.

I hope each and every one of you enjoy the book over the coming week, and find it as serene a journey as it promises to be :).

Store page: https://possumcreekgames.itch.io/wanderhome

For those who see this, I'm largely just transfering some stuff from the old thread first which is why there is such a wall of text :).

The much shorter version is just that we read a book from week to week til we are finished with it. One can discuss it here then throughout, and every Friday I'll also ask some questions in an effort to prompt discussions over the weekend :).

If we are finishing up a book, there will also be a voting post made on Fridays which will stay up til Sunday whereupon the next book is chosen :). If a book takes several weeks to finish, there's no vote for the next book until the final week but one is still more than welcome to mention any works one's interested in for the sake of adding them to the reading list :).

The current book is Wanderhome for those who are curious. Since this just started last week, the list of works which have been read isn't terribly long yet haha: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1x119ldr1LefGzpgZ67mQR9Ovy7GGVVO4cMk6cbwPUrY/edit?usp=drivesdk

Think that should be all, have a great one!

[vestal aspen]

nice, this was part of TTRPGs for Trans Rights in Texas bundle, so if you got that you might have it already!

[brisk lake]

https://tenor.com/view/allmight-entrance-dramatic-entrance-i-am-here-gif-23939917

[vestal aspen]

👀

[frail adder]

I’m back

[steep sun]

Yeah, ease of access is something I try to take into consideration :).

Three of the four choices this time around were chosen from that bundle because I thought a lot of people might have picked it up :).

[night pelican]

ooh i'll sub to this thread for sure

[delicate geode]

yay! wanderhome

this is my char from when i played :)

[brisk lake]

ooo elegant 😄

[jovial wave]

I've yet to fully run it, but I own the physical book!

[brisk lake]

I mentioned this in the other thread, but I'm interested in how Wanderhome handles conflict & its resolution; it seems so serene, and I'm used to there being more danger in the TTRPGs I play, so discussing it and getting a better grasp on it is highly interesting to me from a "how can I write different kinds of conflicts" perspective

[jovial wave]

yeah, that's the part of the gameplay i've had a hard time grokking

[brisk lake]

I've seen a lot of scenarios on Itch.io though, and I do want to pick one or two up sometime to read over

Like this one: https://andrewaulenback.itch.io/wanderhome-module-falling-back

[steep sun]

I've been thinking about a facet of the book which relates to that, which is its framing of violence.

Especially as a narrative tool Wanderhome is explicit about believing violence to be non-essential to conflicts, as well as to characters. In that vein it tries to distance itself from it if not in its acknowledgement of its existence, then in reliance on and presumed centrality of it. I don't think it always succeeds at this, but it's something which I personally find pervades the writing.

On the same topic, I find it interesting how it approaches those reliant on violence for their identity (if not in the present, then the past). Conquerors and generals alike are treated more pitiably than anything else so far, if not due to the diminished relevance of violence then mayhaps because of a vacuous personality on their end which they could only think of to compensate for with violence. Though at this point I'm moreso projecting an idea onto the work than a reading of it :).

[hoary tiger]

so having check Wanderhome, i think i fell in love with it, given its something that for me works more as a oneshot, small, keeping it simple, my small cousings really enjoyed it

[steep sun]

Friday has arrived, and with my a few questions about Wanderhome!

Were there any paragraphs of the book, such as mechanics or writing, which stood out to you?

Are there any more general impressions you have from the book, or anything else you took away from it?

Are there any further thoughts you have about Wanderhome, or which sprout up whilst reading it? This includes for example how you'd imagine running it, and what would fit it.

PS. Originally I thought the book would last for two weeks at least , since it's more than 200 pages long.

However, after p.43 the rest of the book is largely prompts about people, places, and the world one inhabits.These pages are oft quite cute, but I'm not sure they on their own have enough there to talk about for next week. As such I'm considering whether to choose a new book for next week, even if I'd expected Wanderhome to take longer. Would be very happy to know how others feel there too :).

[next whale]

Not really part of the book club but Veteran's ability to use their violence to shatter the core rule of the game and in doing so exile themself from it is fantastic

Or really the way it emphasizes for the veteran that non-violence unlike in the other playbooks is a choice, sometimes an active, present, and maybe even a difficult choice is excellent

[paper sand]

I feel like I should say something in response like "Pacifism without choice is just weakness" but that honestly sounds like some edgy shit.

[paper sand]

Reading through Wanderhome, I appreciate how it just takes the game being a collaborative effort as a given. No one is considered in charge or the arbiter, it is just a conversation between friends.

[steep sun]

Yeah, I don't think there's any weakness to having pacifism just be a normal, passive part of life. Rather, it would be a wonderful world if strife was all but forgotten.

However, at the same time the setting of Wanderhome is in part one where that is the world in making, and equally so one where people are more than willing to make an active choice for a more peaceful world.

With the veteran they have pieces of their old world left with them. We all do I suppose, as we carry our past with us. For them the past just happens to be one of violence, and one which they struggle with actively.

Wanderhome doesn't to me subscribe to a moral hierarchy of struggle, the idea that one kind of struggle is more "valid" than another. Instead it looks towards the person dealing with their demons and how to show compassion for them. With this it shows some humanity towards people, that they don't need to justify themselves for others constantly.

[paper sand]

Yeah

[steep sun]

Overall I think it's a good book, one which lends itself to oneshots such as what Matheus mentioned. For anything longer I think it would struggle a bit, but at the same time I don't think it really needs to be anything other than what it is now :).

Since this was an unexpectedly short book I'll be putting up a post for a vote soon. Normally I'd have it up on Fridays but was caught a bit off guard with this one.

[toxic wasp]

https://fxtwitter.com/jdragsky/status/1309995638453567489

supplementary material

(And the source of my desire to run Wanderhome+Panic At The Dojo)

[steep sun]

There's a lot of fun stuff they've made for and about Wanderhome, which can slot easily into other systems as well yeah :).

In regards to other system, here's what one can vote on for next week. Voting is done the same as last time; simply react to this comment with the number of the ones you'd want to read.
Week 2
1. Technoir Technoir is a roleplaying game. You play protagonists like cyber-tweaked couriers, hard-nosed investigators, and drugged-out hackers making opportunities for themselves in a despairing world.
https://www.technoirrpg.com/
2. FIST a tabletop roleplaying game about paranormal mercenaries doing the tough jobs no one else can.
https://claymorerpgs.itch.io/fist
3. The God that Crawls (Module for LotfP) A murdering cult. A religious order dedicated to protecting sacred history. An ancient catacomb full of danger and reward. The God that Crawls
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/105954/The-God-that-Crawls
4. The Dracula Dossier (module for Night's Black Agents) The Dracula Dossier is an epic improvised campaign for the Night’s Black Agents RPG. Do your Agents have what it takes to face the Lord of the Undead himself?
https://pelgranepress.com/2011/12/22/the-dracula-dossier/
5. Monsterhearts 2 Monsterhearts 2 lets you and your friends create stories about sexy monsters, teenage angst, personal horror, and secret love triangles. When you play, you explore the terror and confusion of having a body that is changing without your permission.
https://buriedwithoutceremony.com/monsterhearts

There are more than a few works, such as En Garde! and Gubat Banwa, which were cut to make the list more manageable. They however still deserve a shout-out, and will return as choices in the future :).

[paper sand]

I'm not sure if The God that Crawls or Dracula Dossier fit since they seem to be adventure modules and not systems

[vestal aspen]

imo adventure modules are cool too but maybe let's note what they are in the votes going forth

[steep sun]

Adding a note mentioning that they're modules works well, and I changed it to reflect that.

Modules and other supplements have been on the table since the start, as per the first post, but it's good to clearly delineate them as not being systems in their own right.

[elder laurel]

1. I find myself often going back to the Seasons, Months, and Holidays even though I didn't particularly enjoy Wanderhome, because they serve as just a nice repository of neat flavor to add to a lot of fantasy-adjacent games. While the playbooks/traits/natures are really nice ways to conceptualize characters, as someone who finds themselves preferring to GM more often, the stylistic flair of the seasons/months/holidays section is just so appreciated.
   1a: I also love, as character mechanics expressions, the "you can always do" section of the playbooks. I've found great enjoyment from incorporating and plucking those into other games and characters.

2. It's artistically beautiful, I would love to have it as a book to just hand people. The usage of thick colors in gradients is mesmerizing. That most of the playbooks often have a companion or rely on one of the other characters in some fashion is intentional and wonderful.

3. I actually got to facilitate a game of Wanderhome for one session. Much like i'm sorry did you say street magic, it's excellent for inspiring people to construct characters & places that are wondrous and fantastic, and are not explicitly places of violence or need. However, the actual game after the character/place generation was very much disappointing. It's like a recipe that wrote down all the ingredients and then said "yea so once you've mixed everything together, just eyeball the baking from there and have fun.". The lack of meaningful structure, the emphasis on spontaneous narrative generation through whatever each individual player wanted to talk about, all of these things really watered the game down. I found myself comparing it to i'm sorry did you say street magic, where the RP is explicitly in purpose of trying to identify the true name of the place/people/street, and found it wanting.

[steep sun]

The idea is to be able to cover aspects the system might itself not explore fully by virtue of being the foundation :). Dracula Dossier being picked over the system Night's Black Agents, which it belongs to, was done to as the former delves more into the structure of a mystery campaign/module whilst FIST and Technoir already filled the niche of mystery systems this week.

[elder laurel]

I do find great value in reading modules, but mostly as tools to understand how an author interprets/views how a system should be run.

(i'm super excited and sad that i missed the beginning of the rpg book club haha)

[steep sun]

Yeah that's pretty much where I am coming at modules from as well for this.

[elder laurel]

Also, the layout of Wanderhome was super hard to actually use to facilitate haha

It was not designed well to actually use at the table, I found

A lot of procedures found by jumping all over the place

(i get salty about wanderhome because i loved it so much and then fumbled the actual play 😦 )

[steep sun]

I was kinda surprised when I realised only the first 40 or so pages were the system itself, and even then a lot of that was also side-stories.

The description of it as a coffee table book is an apt one I find, because it is beautiful and very useful as a supplement or for a oneshot. Running it for anything more than that though I felt it would start to struggle.

[elder laurel]

It's nice as a toolkit for fleshing out your setting for people who like vibes-based design, i think

I haven't used the NPC generation tools (traits) inside other games, but I think they would work okay too

[steep sun]

Agreed, there are a lot of useful prompts in it one can leisurely browse through when one feels like it.

[elder laurel]

for instance, i'm sorry did you say street magic has a very formalized "rounds of play" that helps structure and guide people with regards to how to actually play the game. the game is much more tightly-focused. Wanderhome tries to have its cake and eat it too, and I think it really suffers from wanting people to be able to RP with no express purpose in the setting

[steep sun]

If I can be forgiven for the expected comparison, I'd say it felt like the opposite of Lancer whilst simultaneously sharing in part the same root in terms of what inspired them.

[elder laurel]

I'm not sure I understand the comparison to Lancer?

[steep sun]

Lancer having a very structured system and where the lore, whilst open in its design, is also dense and oft rather concrete.

Whilst Wanderhome felt like the opposite in terms of vibes.

[thorn sun]

wanderhome is v much like, well, wandering

[elder laurel]

ahhh

i would say its a similar comparison in that lancer has very structured combat and unstructured narrative (mechanically), whereas wanderhome has structured place/character generation and unstructured everything afterwards

while still being ostensibly games that can handle scifi | wandering

[steep sun]

Not in a bad way, but where Lancer can be so wholly tied to its setting that folk have struggled to divorce aspects of it from it, with Wanderhome the world felt so fleeting that I found myself moreso wondering about how it would supplement other works.

[thorn sun]

theres not rly A Point to it and i think it says a lot that jay's ideal way of playing wanderhome is this
https://vxtwitter.com/jdragsky/status/1310001395752370177?s=20

[elder laurel]

i can see that

an intentional void is still a void however, and without that disclaimer its kinda like a rollercoaster that has no tracks after the rise

[thorn sun]

thats fair yea

[elder laurel]

its nice to know that incorporating the toolkit nature of wanderhome into other games is intentional though haha

[thorn sun]

blorbo-maker: the game

[elder laurel]

i remember seeing a really nice twitter thread about someone running Heart in Wanderhome

[steep sun]

Absolutely, I do think it's a great book as long as one knows where one has it.

[thorn sun]

omg ya got a link to it?

[elder laurel]

https://vxtwitter.com/EveStirwin/status/1396245991817367553?s=20 its a full thread

[steep sun]

I think I heard that mentioned as well somewhere. Is it Heart: The city Beneath?

[elder laurel]

yup!

[steep sun]

Haha, that's wonderful!

[elder laurel]

Heart is my personal "ttrpg that sounds better in my head then when i actually run it"

so i think about it constantly, like an imagination mine, but am averse to actually running/playing it

[steep sun]

Ah, the Eclipse Phase school of RPGs?

[thorn sun]

ive been playing Heart as a deep apiarist and its been really fun

[elder laurel]

i think it's a satisfying game to run, with a neat gameplay loop

[steep sun]

Though I've heard EP is fine to run, but have also only encountered less than a handful of people who have ran it.

[elder laurel]

it's not mechanically hyper-intensive or requires really understanding the setting to an extreme extent like EP

[thorn sun]

i ran a oneshot of it once, the pcs were stuck in a Candyland version of Knowhere and had to kill a god to get out

[elder laurel]

my main thing is that Heart basically takes you to these fascinating locations and asks you to abstract the traversal

because the game is very tightly focused around how you the players react

but i want to traverse those places! that's what i find so interesting in the Heart setting

[steep sun]

Mm, travel in RPGs is a difficult thing to get right.

[thorn sun]

wdym? like, the delve system?

[elder laurel]

yea

like, for a given delve, i want to break out the 5 foot gridded squares

i want to see them do the OSR equivalent of exploration/dungeoncrawl

[thorn sun]

ahhh ic ic

[elder laurel]

it's a personal thing so i don't fault the authors haha

[thorn sun]

yea no heart's much more pointcrawl

[elder laurel]

yea, which is why i primarily have it mentally filtered into my "inspiration fuel" content category

[thorn sun]

delves still like, have u traversing, but not in as tactile a way as osr exploration is

[steep sun]

Oh yeah, also if any of you have systems or other works you want to have as choices for future weeks feel free to add them here https://forms.gle/uRKPqiJ8GcvJiVHd9.

That form is a bit easy to miss due to me being silly.

Just came to mind with Heart being mentioned.

[steep sun]

Is it more how to fill in the space between the points where events unfurl which is the issue? That's something I've had struggled with as well, with it currently being in the camp of being abbreviated if there isn't anything planned to occur along the way.

Though it does feel somewhat weird to have long travels summarised in a few sentences

[elder laurel]

No, I could definitely run it as a pointcrawl. It's quite literally a personal hang-up, where I want to explore these dripping, bloody dungeons filled with monstrosities both intensely intimate and at the same time removed from humanity.

[steep sun]

Ahhh, nah ok that's completely fair.

Thought it was a technical aspect of it, but yeah no teasing tantalising set-pieces is going to make people want to explore them.

[elder laurel]

I tossed a few recs in!

[toxic wasp]

exploiting the book club submission form for my own selfish ends (convincing myself to read pdfs I already own but haven't dug into)

[steep sun]

That's half the reason I started it haha.

Have far too many books that haven't even been opened.

[steep sun]

Preliminarily FIST seems to be the book of choice; I'm expecting this one will be 1-2 weeks but will give a more concrete estimate later today once the voting has closed :). (normally votes are from Friday to Sunday GMT+0, this is just an exception that it's from Sunday til Monday this week.)

[tribal palm]

I’d never seen this when this was a thread, I love this idea

So count me in

[brisk lake]

I would love to read this thread but I’m not a Twitter user. Is there any other way to read this in full?

[brisk lake]

Is the form in one of the starting posts? Maybe we could request a mod pin one or more posts for ease of access?

[brisk lake]

FIST’s core system is surprisingly short; the majority of pages are actually dedicated to the random tables iirc. So it’ll probably vary based on how deep we wanna go haha

[steep sun]

I made an addendum to the starting post to include it, but a pin would be preferable yeah.

Write any recommendations you may have here:https://forms.gle/uRKPqiJ8GcvJiVHd9

Past Weeks: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1x119ldr1LefGzpgZ67mQR9Ovy7GGVVO4cMk6cbwPUrY/edit?usp=drivesdk

Structure of the book club:#1161718736391254178 message

If you have any book you especially want to be among those we vote on for the coming week, just ping me and I'll try my best to include it :).

[steep sun]

Always unsure of which mod to ping, but this comment would be the one to pin then.

[paper sand]

You can't pin posts in your own forum thread?

[thorn sun]

thats a specific permission mods gotta give to a user/role

[steep sun]

Yeah, at the very least I don't see any option to.

But messaged one of the mods about it.

[paper sand]

Weird
I think I remember reading a synopsis of God that Crawls, and from what I remember it doesn't seem like a fun read. That and it being LotFP

[paper sand]

Nevermind, looked it up and I was thinking of Monolith Beyond Time and Space

[steep sun]

Where I came across it was in a conversation about proactive dungeon crawls and how to make/run them. I haven't read it in full personally, as is true for all the works in the book club, so in the case my quick perusal misjudges any of the options any week that's on me.

LotfP I'll admit I have no interest in myself as a system. The God that Crawls is the only exposure I have to it, and there I'm mainly interested in it for the technical parts.

What I do know about the module is that it's apparently a dryer read, based on the reviews of it. Personally I'll probably be reading it on my free time, but it was an option for this week for now :).

Edit: Reading about it a bit more, and yeah I think there are nuggets of something interesting in it whilst also having some tiresome aspects. This leaves it as a whole to be a mixed bag.

It is probably not going to be a book I add to the voting-list myself in the future, unless someone specifically asks me to.

[steep sun]

Good to know haha, I'll assume it'll be for one week then.

[paper sand]

Yeah, Monolith Beyond Time and Space is a "level 0-infinity" adventure that isn't really...good

Stuff like invincible enemies, random character overriding without any save, overuse of prep

Has stuff like randomizing the distance to the eponymous Monolith, which is an ok idea when possible results don't include Astronomical Units

[next whale]

This is good analysis and also 3 is why I stalled out on writing Iron Harvest because I can't get a good feel for what I want people to actually do

Are the vibes good? Yes. But w h a t d o y o u a c t u a l l y d o

[paper sand]

Thinking on it, you could probably unite Wanderhome with something like DOGS for a ruleset

[toxic wasp]

That sounds rad

[paper sand]

And a general framing akin to Dogs in the Vineyard (not the Morman part, the visiting random towns as you travel like an episodic story part)

Actually might write that concept down for a setting idea

[elder laurel]

oops accidentally doxxed myself haha

[elder laurel]

there ya go!

1 -> 2
3 -> 4

[verbal comet]

oh.

[paper sand]

An Eldritch location of eternity and nostalgia, alien and unknowable, being plundered by humanity because it loves them too much, even if it can't understand them

[verbal comet]

that goes hard

[brisk lake]

Yeah that goes incredibly hard

Thank you for sharing Ludume!

[elder laurel]

np np!

there's a concept or thing I've been stewing over called Sincerity in ttrpgs. Which, in my head, represents this raw opening of the GM's emotions into the game itself. A setting that feels genuine that not because it is realistic, but because each element woven into it is a string from the GM's heart. A ruleset that feels like someone trying to communicate their intentions clumsily, but well-meaning. The Heart in Wanderhome feels like it hits close to that, so I like to think of it haha

[paper sand]

I'll need to make a marker for me to look into unifying Wanderhome and DOGS for my setting, I think it could work really well to have the DOGS stats for typical conflict and Wanderhome for giving players the power of Moves

[elder laurel]

I'm actually not too familiar with DOGS mechanically haha

What are you considering Moves in Wanderhome?

[paper sand]

DOGS has stuff like Traits, Powers, Stats, and Gear with Dice Pools

So like, in a modern setting, an iPad would be 1d8

When you enter conflict, you roll Stats depending on the kind of conflict (verbal/physical non-violent/physical violence/ranged violence/pure powers) and roll any Traits, Powers, or Gear as they become relevant to the conflict.

These dice are then held at their rolled values and you go back and forth "raising" and "calling", spending dice that then must be matched by everyone affected by your action

It keeps going until one side runs out of dice to spend, though they can get additional dice by escalating into the next level of conflict

[elder laurel]

ahhh gotcha

[paper sand]

(AKA, if you lost the argument, you can decide to get physical if you really want to win the conflict)

And what I mean by Moves in Wanderhome is the things your playbook can do, no strings attached

Those would be things your character can just do no matter what

[elder laurel]

ahhh gotcha

that sounds like a very specific kind of game

[paper sand]

I think I mainly have my idea stuck on the Veteran

The idea of a former soldier, joined with this small band of pilgrims to learn more about the communities of their beautiful lands, always having a finger tapping on their sheathed sword

A creature raised on violence and hate forced to learn how to love

[elder laurel]

I'm kinda curious who the Veteran is for

well

scratch that

I'm curious who decides to play the Veteran after reading through Wanderhome and assembling characters with everyone

Because it's such an intentionally dissonant choice

That it almost feels like it changes what the game can talk about, in terms of themes.

[paper sand]

I think it's a very interesting choice to take

One that illustrates a character who has forgotten how to be gentle

Who maybe feels they don't deserve kindness

[elder laurel]

i usually design characters in context of the group, to round out edges or add color where i think is interesting, so it's not something i would probably ever play

[toxic wasp]

A bunch of Lancer players try to figure out ways to force pilot play
There's a fun time in playing somewhat against system assumptions

[elder laurel]

that's fair

i feel like that usually comes with maturity/experience with a given system

[verbal comet]

having something different in the group can also be good for the general vibe, since they stand out, and thus make the rest of the setting stand out
similarly to how you see inocent and well meaning characters in grim stories

[paper sand]

The specific idea I have for this is a campaign about a group of people serving as Beggar "Knights", whose duty are to go on a pilgrimage through the outlying towns and villages of the nation. Both teachers and students, they learn wisdom from the places that accept them and spread that wisdom wherever they go.

In my head it's wrapped up in a lot of thought about religion formed by communities and the small ways it changes to fit the people who comprise it

[steep sun]

Funnily enough the Veteran is the kind of character I most commonly play myself, if not initially then one who comes to follow in those footsteps having grown weary of who they were.

In Wanderhome it is not that the world hasn't known violence, it is an old branch of it slowly withering away. The veteran is thus an answer to the elephant in the room, the people who knew violence and yet still live.

I talked previously about struggle and the compassion towards it being concepts which permeate the book, and I feel they make themselves known here as well. There is undeniably a dissonance with the literal Damocles' sword hanging by the hip of the Veteran. Yet part of the point is how one can still show compassion towards them just as they should do towards you. That fear of who they were, and who they might become again, may always haunt them like a spectre. Yet this doesn't mean they don't deserve the same fair chance we all do. Paarthurnax' old quote feels rather applicable here "What is better: to be born good or to overcome your evil nature through great effort?". The Veteran is the one most aware of who they once were, and in Wanderhome they have the chance to work towards who they wish to become. As such I find it fits quite well within the context of what Wanderhome is.

In relation to all of this, one reading of "Unsheathe your blade and immediately kill the person in front of you." is not of the literal action, but that the consequence of taking this action does also mean killing the person you are or were trying to become. Maybe they will spiral and worsen, or maybe they will finally break out of it and become better. Whatever the case may be, it will no longer be in this game; they broke their bond with these people and betrayed the goodwill they were shown when they drew that blade. Whatever their life has in store, it's not found here anymore.

[steep sun]

---

The vote has now concluded and the book chosen is FIST: Ultra Edition! https://claymorerpgs.itch.io/fist

When you’re all out of options, it’s time to call FIST.

FIST: Ultra Edition is a tabletop roleplaying game about paranormal mercenaries doing the tough jobs no one else can. In the game, you belong to a legendary rogue mercenary unit called FIST. You are a soldier of fortune who doesn’t fit into modern society. You are a disposable gun for hire, caught up in the death and destruction of pointless proxy wars and oppressive establishments. You may also be someone who can turn into a ghost or control bees with your mind.
....
FIST is inspired by Metal Gear Solid, The A-Team, and Doom Patrol. It's mechanically descended from John Harper's World of Dungeons, Ben Milton's Maze Rats, and Offworlders, by Chris P. Wolf and Olivia Gulin.

FIST knows what it is and wears its inspirations on its sleeves, and thus there's not a lot for me to add in this preamble. If you have managed to avoid Metal Gear Solid on the server so far, FIST might be the time you finally learn what it's all about thematically.

Expected reading time: 1 week, can be extended if need be.

PS. For those who have the trans rights itchio bundle, you will have access to this system as well through it!

(Feel free to continue the prior discussion regarding Wanderhome. I'm just making the post for the book of the week :).)

[still fractal]

I missed the Wanderhome discussion but I'm in for FIST

[elder laurel]

For those games that are straddling the line between a setting and a toolkit for exploring the settling, it's definitely something to ponder. I don't have a clean answer, but I wonder if just constructing several types of games/ruleset within a setting is the way to go for solving that conundrum.

[paper sand]

Weirdest gamefeel ever, Wanderhome for narrative play and PATD for combat

[toxic wasp]

that's what I'm saying!!!

it has to happen

[paper sand]

The justification is that the PATD is purely for sport

So Veteran gets the superpower of Just Kill A Guy

[elder laurel]

PaTD is super wild

I remember being dissatisfied with the general trend for tactical combat games like ICON and such that were trending towards very simple/gameable units for the GM while leaving all the complexity for the players

then I tried to run a PaTD oneshot and was like "i have to make all of these statblocks???"

[tribal palm]

Literally just downloaded fist earlier today

[steep sun]

FIST: Ultra Edition is a simple game. Sure, it's over 150 pages long, but the basic rules you need to know to play wrap up on page 10, the referee advice is done by page 36, and you can find a two-page summary of all critical game information on pages 71-72. You can make a fully-fledged character in a few seconds, and embark on your first mission within a half-hour. So: what's with all the other stuff? Put simply, this book is full of toys. You don't need to read the whole thing now (although we've done our best to make it an enjoyable front-to-back read), and you certainly don't need to commit it to memory for the game to function. Here's hoping you enjoy the game, however you may play—and, of course, thanks for playing!

I've learnt from my mistakes! (Highlight is mine :), was just checking the length of the rules this time.)

[brisk lake]

Re: Wanderhome, I like how Andrew Aulenback has put together short, ~6 page Wanderhome modules. Presents one or two Natures that have a “large trouble”, with accompanying few Small and Forgotten Gods, Named Kith, and recommended kith of the area (e.g. foxes, otters, robins).

The “large trouble” tends to ripple and cause smaller troubles in the area, which to me is pretty compelling for driving interesting conflict (e.g. Broken Down is about a sunken ferry and how peddlers who relied on it to sell goods are getting impatient and frustrated). The modules also include questions that can help set the “themes” of the module (like themes of reliance on technology and taking time for maintenance, in the case of Broken Down).

I think that if I were to play Wanderhome, I’d need to have some tools with me to come up with “troubles”, maybe directly tied to Kith, Natures, holidays, etc. Not all of them would need to be “large”, and not every element would have a trouble, but they’d be there for guidance and depth. Get the players to say “Awww, oh no :(“ before maybe acting to improve things, if they so choose. Get the lows so the highs feel that much better

[elder laurel]

ooooh, that would definitely be helpful

curious if that's meant for GM-mediated games or one of the other styles that Wanderhome supports

[brisk lake]

They handle both!

The modules by Aulenback I mean. They have steps for if you’re the Guide or if you’re playing without a guide

[jovial wave]

ooo thanks for this!

[brisk lake]

Doing my read of FIST and came across this funny 4th wall break in the list of 216 different traits:

(FIST uses d6s so 221 means rolling a 2, 2, 1 on 3d6)

[steep sun]

For some reason I'd never thought of doing it that way, though I suppose the issue is then knowing the order of the dice.

An issue resolved by not rolling them all at once, or through technology.

[brisk lake]

Or simply different colored dice, which tbf could be viewed as a kind of technology? 😄

[steep sun]

I was thinking moreso just a digital roller, but that works too lol.

[still fractal]

Or roll one die 3 times

[still fractal]

Def one of my favorites. Also check out 634. TRUTH

[tribal palm]

my fav of the traits so far is the Guy What Explodes

[brisk lake]

Big Suicide Squad energy on some of these, love it

[still fractal]

The game feels like the epitome of "Drive your character like a stolen car"

Here for a good time, not a long time

Gonna play my wild character as long as I can, and if they die, I pull the lever on the character gachapon machine and do a tactical insertion within 60 seconds

[still fractal]

I actually printed cards of all the FIST traits and roles so that you could create a character just by drawing 2 cards from the Trait deck and 1 card from the Role deck

[brisk lake]

That’s pretty fantastic honestly, good way to prevent doubles in a team too

[vestal aspen]

that reminds me of how candela obscura does quickstart
just a generally very useful tool, though some systems are more friendly with this tool

[brisk lake]

So, reading FIST, character creation seems dead simple and easy to automate. The steps fit on 1 page, referencing tables later in the book. Basic rules are pretty straightforward too: Roll 2d6, add the relevant character attribute, and then check if you failed, partially succeeded, succeeded, or ultra-succeeded

The referee doesn't have to roll dice to hit; the enemy's "damage" is instead the consequence of missing an attack during Active Combat

The book spends most of its "core rules" pages on advice on how to play or run the game, getting into helpful RPG theory and helping folks manage expectations of the game. It helps the Referee construct "missions", but also guides them to keep the mission loose and evolving. Sometimes the mission objective will be abandoned due to complications, and that's ok!

To accompany its advice, it provides examples of play, as well as how to construct characters and missions

And the generative tables themselves? Wild stuff. I haven't read all of it but it nails a wacky "kitchen sink" approach, making even the mundane seem interesting when juxtaposed with stuff like the Director trait: #1161718736391254178 message

So yeah, straightforward rules, good and widely-applicable gaming advice, lots of ideas densely packed into a genre-savvy box, I can't wait to run it sometime

What did other people think about it, what stood out to you?

[still fractal]

I agree, the simplicity of the rules and the wildly cool traits make me really excited to run it. Probably my ideal system to run Extraction from Demon-Fucked Cleveland 1996

The section on p22 about tone was really neat, cool way to think about it and put yourself in the right mindset

Remember that everything in FIST is hyperreal. You're not a disabled person who people treat as radioactive, you're radioactive and it's a disability

[paper sand]

Real Kojima hours

[still fractal]

The fact that rolling a new character is not only easy but exciting ("What wild new abilities will I get this time?"), plus the easy tactical insertion rules make it really easy to let yourself be comfortable with PC death

It kind of feels like PC death is almost played for laughs, like the X Force in Deadpool 2

[still fractal]

One interesting thing about FIST (as well as other PbtA/FitD games, and some OSR-adjacent games like Mothership) is that it doesn't use initiative in combat. Instead, combat is treated the same way non-combat is: GM presents the situation, players describe how they respond, GM adjudicates actions, GM describes new situation, repeat

I find that this is pretty hard for a lot of RPG players to wrap their mind around if they have been playing in systems that use some sort of turn-based combat system

The best example I've seen of narrative combat was given by Sean McCoy (author of Mothership) in the Mothership Discord server:

[elder laurel]

i'm sorry, what?

[brisk lake]

This, I think: https://mega-corp.itch.io/efdfc1996

[toxic wasp]

oh I thought it was dodgepong's secret dream campaign

[still fractal]

Oh yeah, haha

Great module

[still fractal]

I mean, I do really want to run it in FIST

[toxic wasp]

I believe it, sounds like a really fun fit

[toxic wasp]

starting FIST

Why is Yu-Gi-Oh one of the inspirations?

[toxic wasp]

Attempting to read the ||Cyclops entries|| has been enhanced by my pdf reader glitching out repeatedly. antiemetic properties

[toxic wasp]

Randomly generated traits: Astral projection, followed constantly by a flock of crows, reckless nihilist.

My character concept: Requiem, an innocent bystander killed in an operation gone wrong, promptly reborn as a bird, then resurrected back into his human body.

[brisk lake]

You know, now I’m thinking about how FIST’s “choke” score could be lifted as part of a Hireling system for Lancer, especially since there’s already a kind of “choke” for NHPs by rolling a 1 for cascade

[still fractal]

Choke reminds me a lot of morale rolls in general

[steep sun]

(gonna post a bit later today :). Long week)

[steep sun]

FIST: ULTRA EDITION
Week 2, Discussion
The week is starting to come to an end, meaning folk have hopefully had the chance to get through FIST and find little nuggets.

What was your impression of the system as a whole, both in terms of narrative and mechanics? Did it succeed at what it aimed to do, or was there any part which fell flat? The book encourages you to play FIST as a conversation; do you feel that the system helps facilitate this, or does it leave the heavy lifting to the group here?

As Fist is meant to be able to be picked up and played very quickly, most of the book is dedicated to tables and other tools to help you rather than rules. Were there any of these additional pieces, so the tables and such, which especially spoke to you, and how was their execution in general?

Is there any part of Fist which inspired you or which you want to use in a campaign, or conversely is there any system you'd want to supplement Fist with?

On a personal note I really liked the use of schematics for the visuals. The gun schematic on the cover is the most obvious example, but my favourite is the facility blueprint on p.20 in the retail version of the book. It's a small thing mayhaps, but these pieces with meticulous levels of detail do sell the fantasy of the system very well for me

[steep sun]

---

Vote for the next book.
With Halloween upon us the theme this week is about what lies beyond. Be it beyond death, life, comprehension, or one's bedtime, these works ask you to delve.

1. Beyond the Fence, Below the Grave
An investigative role-playing game of pre-medieval Scandinavia sorcery.
https://t-akw.itch.io/beyond-the-fence-below-the-grave

2. Brindlewood Bay
A roleplaying game about a group of elderly women—members of the local Murder Mavens mystery book club—who frequently find themselves investigating (and solving!) real-life murder mysteries. https://www.gauntlet-rpg.com/brindlewood-bay.html

3. Heart: The City Beneath
A tabletop roleplaying game about delving into a nightmare undercity that will give you everything you’ve ever dreamed of – or kill you in the process. https://rowanrookanddecard.com/product/heart-the-city-beneath-rpg/

4. Trail of Cthulu
Trail of Cthulhu is a complete game of investigative horror set in the 1930s based on the work of HP Lovecraft.
https://pelgranepress.com/trail-of-cthulhu/

5. Delta Green
the covert agency known as Delta Green opposes the forces of darkness with honor, but without glory.
https://www.delta-green.com/

I feel a bit bad for Beyond the Fence since it's situated against four very well known works, but even if it doesn't get chosen I'll recommend checking it out :). Other than that there is some overlap between the last two choices especially, mainly because I couldn't choose which to exclude and thus just included both.

[steep sun]

And here back to the the Fist discussion :). The vote is just for the future, but isn't meant to disrupt any talks.

[thorn sun]

heartheartheartheartheart

[steep sun]

Also, as always vote by reacting to the post with the number of the RPG/s you want to read next week :). The one with the most votes wins.

[steep sun]

I suspect I know which one you'd vote for haha. As a reminder though, to vote one has to react to the comment with the corresponding number for the system :). Otherwise it'll sadly not count.

[brisk lake]

Beyond the Fence sounds fascinating, so I’ll save it for my wishlist to find later for sure

[steep sun]

I have a slight suspicion it'll be Heart that's chosen for next week haha.

It's fine to vote on multiple things btw, as long as it's done in good faith :). I mention it mainly because it's fun to know what's piqued people's interest.

[brisk lake]

I’ll say that if anyone liked FIST and wants to discuss it after we move on, there’s a #1161707028360745022 thread for that now!

For now, I’ll say that FIST’s emphasis on only using player dice rolls is a good way to keep conversation flowing. Sometimes when a GM is rolling to accomplish something in other games, it can feel like they’re narrating what’s happening to themselves. From my own experience in other systems, the “action to consequence to action” pipeline works great at the table

You get a lot less “stalling out” when two opponents keep swinging and missing each other in a combat game like dnd or Lancer

[vestal aspen]

I would love to reread Heart (and probably also Spire while I'm at it, though that could be the next week)
I'd also be happy to check out Delta Green for the first time or Trail of Cthulhu

[toxic wasp]

oh boy FIST thoughts
Very nice springboard of a book! I liked how conversational the play examples were, and I think it gives you a lot of good material to work with.
My experience is mostly with tactical games, where very specific direction for team comps and such is appreciated. I think running FIST would be an adjustment from that mentality, but I could probably coast on random generations for a while until I get in the groove

[jovial wave]

I did not read the FIST book proper but I did peruse some of its modules people have put out, and I can say that the looser layout of how FIST flows and the fact things like damage to players all occurs on player rolls succeeding/failing is very cool, gives the GM a bit more of a hands-off-of-dice feeling that Valk touched on

[tribal palm]

NGL I kinda love the idea of like

If you have a rules lite system, focus hard on providing people with content like tables and weird powers

[still fractal]

I love FIST and it's currently at the top of my list of games I most want to run.

What was your impression of the system as a whole, both in terms of narrative and mechanics? Did it succeed at what it aimed to do, or was there any part which fell flat? The book encourages you to play FIST as a conversation; do you feel that the system helps facilitate this, or does it leave the heavy lifting to the group here?

FIST, despite having its history as a PbtA/World of Dungeons hack, feels squarely in the OSR (or even NSR) sphere in terms of the game's attitude and ethos. Honestly, comprehending the game flow has helped me better understand some PbtA/FitD game flow ideas and see the two different takes on fiction-forward gameplay to be more similar than I thought!

I wish the book had a stronger example of how combat worked, not because I couldn't figure it out, but because I think it will probably be the biggest thing that many GMs will struggle with the most if they are used to more rigid turn-based combat games. I get why it isn't detailed more -- because combat works the way the rest of the game works -- but I still think it would have been useful to have more detail about it for those who have trouble wrapping their minds around it.

I also wish the book came with a light faction system, or perhaps some more advice for campaign play. It seems very geared toward one-shots or short-shots, which is fine, though I could also very much see this as the type of game where each player has a stable of characters that they send on random missions. That said, I know of several other faction systems I could import into FIST and use pretty easily. The book does have a bit of advice about factions and timelines, so that's probably good enough for a baseline.

[still fractal]

As Fist is meant to be able to be picked up and played very quickly, most of the book is dedicated to tables and other tools to help you rather than rules. Were there any of these additional pieces, so the tables and such, which especially spoke to you, and how was their execution in general?

I really appreciate the anti-canon approach the game explicitly takes in outsourcing worldbuilding to players and to tables.

I went through the process of making a mission, and it was really fun to ask myself questions about the mission and then be able to answer the questions using the tables provided. I found them all to be really inspirational and sparking lots of cool ideas. I generated a mission about a scientist pulling a heist to steal valuable equipment to help him build an army of super-soldiers to fight off a potential alien invasion, seemed super fun. Other than the traits themselves, my favorite table is probably the Partial Success table for those moments when you're having trouble thinking of an interesting complication to the success.

Is there any part of Fist which inspired you or which you want to use in a campaign, or conversely is there any system you'd want to supplement Fist with?

I definitely want to use FIST to run Extraction from Demon-Fucked Cleveland 1996. I also think some Liminal Horror modules like The Bureau could be playable with FIST, though the horror elements would be diminished with the goofier FIST tone. And now that I've wrapped my head around narrative-first combat, I feel more empowered to play games like Blades in the Dark and Mothership.

[brisk lake]

I think this last part about easily porting faction systems is one of the strengths of FIST: IIRC it markets itself as easily "hackable", and tbh I could see a lot of different kinds of rulesets easily getting grafted onto FIST's baseline to tweak the game

[still fractal]

Absolutely, this bit on p35 makes it clear just how much this game belongs to the GM

[toxic wasp]

technically I never found out why yu-gi-oh was in the inspirations
Probably has to do with the "hyperreal" genre conventions but that's just a guess

[still fractal]

From the author in the FIST discord

[toxic wasp]

huh! Rad

[still fractal]

(I admit I'm not sure I see it, but also I've never played Yugioh other than watching some of the show)

[jovial wave]

i get it, yugioh chain links get fuckin wild

very quick summary of that, that may or may not help with the fist explanation https://www.youtube.com/shorts/tigAXE0XBy8

[steep sun]

---

The next book has now been chosen; Heart: The City Beneath
ABOVE US, THE CITY, SPIRE, STRETCHES INTO THE SKY. BENEATH US, THE CITY, HEART, STRETCHES INTO THE EARTH.

The Heart is a dangerous, unpredictable, mad place. Located beneath the mile-high city of Spire in the land of Destera, it is a rip in the holes between worlds. The Heart begins,in theory,in the undercity of Spire near the tumbledown settlement of Derelictus. Get out of earshot of the sing-song gangs of street children, leave behind the tenements and shanties, crawl deep into the forsaken bowels of the city and you’ll reach the Heart.The Heart ends, in theory, nowhere. The closer one gets to its centre, the less stable reality becomes.In the midst of its red wet nightmare, concepts such as “beginning” and “end” come undone.

I'm not sure if Heart needs much of an introduction considering its popularity, but in the most succinct of terms it's a story-centric dungeon crawler. The setting is one of its primary appeals, and with its unique, squelching nature it's not surprising why it has managed to capture so many hearts.

Link to the book: https://rowanrookanddecard.com/product/heart-the-city-beneath-rpg/

For those who wish for a review before delving into it, I did find one which seemed decent :). https://ponderingsongames.com/2023/01/30/heart-the-city-beneath/

As an aside, Heart does have a decent amount of heft to it so it would not surprise me if it will cover two weeks instead of the one week the prior two books have :). But we'll see.

[vestal aspen]

I love the XP mechanics of Heart. More thoughts to follow when I get there as I read

[vestal aspen]

before I basically livestream my thoughts as I read, is the convention/etiquette to hold my thoughts until the end and share as one long block? I just feel like I'm gonna forget what I read in chapter 1 by the time I finish, and chapter 1 has some cool stuff in it

[toxic wasp]

I think we're still in the FIST week but once we're in Heart week you can share as you read

[brisk lake]

Tbh I shared some standout snippets of FIST as I read

[vestal aspen]

oh oops that's mb, thank you

[toxic wasp]

i think it works better if reactions/snippets get shared and bounce off of each other during the read week and big blocks get shared during discussion week

[elder laurel]

Note: I've never played/run FIST.

1. FIST presents itself as a tight n' punchy game mechanically. Simple/straightforward resolution system, which works because the game itself seems to be a ruleset for playing around the miltech/conspirafiction genre, relying a lot on genre expectations to color the conversation at the table rather than using mechanics to enforce feeling. As someone who's not that well-versed in the genre, not many inspirations I can pull from if I tried to run this. It has a nice amount of lingo to fake it, though.

2. I think my favorite thing about the random tables is the stylistic names like Mobile Platform CANTICLE and so on. One of the issues I've noted with scifi is that the lingo/jargon does so much for providing platforms for the GM/player to jump off of, and giving plenty of examples makes it much easier for a someone not familiar with the genre to mimic/learn what the expectations of the lingo are.

3. Honestly? I might pull some of FIST into Delta Green, not only to help round out the "not real" horrors that serve as red herrings but also to flesh out some of the military "horror' vibes Delta Green has, things like experiments gone wrong and such. In terms of building a military/regulated paperwork trail that my players might think feels "right".

I'm gearing up to run some more Delta Green scenarios so FIST was surprisingly helpful haha

Honestly, the real strength of FIST is the genre conceits. It's pretty amazing how you can really toss anything into the system and it'll work approximately okay.

A system that celebrates that "kitchen-sink"-style approach is definitely fun to read for inspiration

[steep sun]

There's not much of a strict convention intended on my end; what you can expect from me each week is a post asking questions about the current book around Friday, as well as a vote over the weekend for the next book if applicable. Then around Sunday/Monday the vote closes and I make a short intro post for the winner.

These prior two weeks were just a bit messy in that regard due to me expecting Wanderhome to be longer, as well as breakup on my end causing some disruption last week with the FIST posts :).

My own two cents would be that snippets and thoughts are fine to share whenever you want to; with longer pieces saved til the weekend so people get the chance to familiarise themselves with the book first.

There are some compromises I've made which mean that the discussions will naturally bleed into eachother a bit, which is most notable with shorter works.

[steep sun]

(just making a note for myself to remember to respond tomorrow, as I'm rounding off the day right now :).)

[elder laurel]

np np! i'm just replying to the original comment so i can find the prompt questions again

[brisk lake]

Doing my read of Heart, and wanted to mention real quick that I like how they set up the Delve procedure for getting from place to place, as well as ideas about how resources might be traded/bartered for (NPCs quest givers always want something, not always money or other material). Makes me think of how this procedure for exploration and questgiving might be adapted to Lancer’s “post-scarcity” setting.

At the very least, it could lend itself well to Metavault shenanigans

Also, Vermissian Knight is my favorite class so far lol

[vestal aspen]

there was a related class in Spire too iirc, has something to do with the Vermissian

[paper sand]

Haven't started my reread but the XP system and Zenith Moves are incredible

Both gives players a great amount of power to direct the plot as the GM will generally be trying to hit the player's triggers as well as giving an easy way to gauge how long your character has before their story ends.

[frail ledge]

yo, I was browsing through the discord and I love the idea of a book club! I'll try my best to participate! definitely want to mess with heart! 👀

[steep sun]

---

Question post: Heart; The City Beneath
Week 3

This will be a short few questions as I'm still reading the book, and suspect I'm not alone ;).

Heart is in the same setting as another RPG, Spire, which preceded it. For those who haven't read Spire, do you feel that Heart stands well on its own? For those who are familiar with both, how do you feel they differ or complement eachother?

As previously stated Heart is known for its setting and to my knowledge putting the story at the forefront. What are your thoughts about the narrative aspects of the game/setting, and do you feel the mechanics mesh well with it?

Are there any standout sections, be they mechanics, lore, or the writing alone, which you would want to highlight or have been thinking about a lot?

PS. There won't be a vote post this week since I am assuming Heart will also last for next week as well :).

[steep sun]

Happy to hear :D. It's been fun to get it going and start to delve into the plethora of good books there are out there. Heart especially has been very fun to read!

The message in the pins should hopefully be able to explain most stuff, but if anything is unclear feel free to ping me about it :).

[vestal aspen]

I didn't even know about Spire when I was first reading Heart. I think it's a fine standalone, though it's definitely cool to know about both. There's a first party supplement that helps you convert your spire game into a heart game! Not sure if it preserves the player characters though

[brisk lake]

I think Heart stands perfectly well on its own; I like how it leans into the metagame of “GM should treat the PCs’s character sheets as a wishlist” and makes it an actual explicit part of the game. Refreshingly direct

I liked the sections on delves a lot, as well as Landmarks. Easy to lift the procedure for generating them for use in other games. I liked how they made Delves have an “HP bar”, as it makes thematic sense (you’re literally carving your way through the Heart) but also just super emphasizes the importance of good tools for exploration

[vestal aspen]

I love the Heart XP mechanic and I think it's generally better than Spire's, though I should probably test it to really get the vibes

I especially love that the beat checklist has a lot of "take X fallout" which is amazing

don't let your character hear you say "I want them to eat shit"

[brisk lake]

And honestly I think that Heart delves would be super reasonable to port to a Metavault in Lancer (which is obviously something on my mind a lot)

[vestal aspen]

Every obstacle has an HP bar, including traveling! Very cool way to keep things consistent for all kinds of challenges

[steep sun]

Conceptually they definitely work, especially in a longer form campaign.

Both delve into ideas of the unconscious, pun intended, and thus there's potential for thematic cross matching.

If one wants to lean into the metaphorical, there's in Heart always the question of what you're actually delving into. The physical below is the obvious answer, but equally it can be the aformentioned unconscious mind, and in the introduction it's to me rather explicitly oneself.

The heart then becomes the heart not due to being at the core of the planet, but rather the Heart is what's within and thus the core is defined by being where the heart is and not the other way around.

This is ofc just directions it can be taken or leaned on, but they are easy to transfer to a conception of a metavault in and of itself, or in the centre of a planet or another location.

Could probably make use of it now that I think about it for the vaporwave stuff since I'm finally getting to reviving it again.

[vestal aspen]

i like that there's no canon answer to what heart really is, but there are many in world theories

kinda reminds me of lore chat talking about RA

[steep sun]

To me it seemed to take after psychoanalyst tradition, especially with the lack of clear delineations and answers funnily enough, but it's also clear that it's not intended to have a concrete "answer" as it defeats the entire point of it.

It's not that one can't make an answer for it, but rather the point of it is the absence of such.

There are times where things are vague without much reason, but here it was done with intention and executed well. Just a joy to read.

[vestal aspen]

can't forget to mention how all but one (iirc?) zenith ability that basically kills your character

[paper sand]

I believe every Zenith makes your character become an NPC, and a couple don't actually result in their death

[vestal aspen]

yeah you're right, I also like "retire" phrasing I think bc it doesn't always kill, like you've said

[paper sand]

There's 10 Zeniths which don't actually kill you on activation

You either die as a consequence later on or you just don't actually die, just retire

Incarnadine's Ultimate Debt for instance has a 10% chance every time you invoke it to kill you

Some of those are a bit cheating, as your death is guaranteed within a few sessions.

Heretic's Glory for instance doesn't do anything bad to you at all, but some aelfir hunters get mobilised and will kill you

I do appreciate how many Zeniths have this text though

[vestal aspen]

god the beat thing is so cool
I love the optional rule where one of the two beats is chosen by someone else, so you know what they want to see of your character too

It isn't the easiest system to adapt into other systems, but I really do want to see beat being a thing in more of my games

[steep sun]

Saaaaame. Hooking people on the table into other aspects of what's going on, be it the world or other characters, is honestly one of my favourite categories of mechanics.

There was a trend for a while, might still persist, to have everyone at the table come together to create the setting at least in part, and I liked it for similar reasons.

The act of someone engaging with something else not only reveals their perspective and thoughts, but also hooks them into it in a way few other things can. What makes ttrpgs so engaging, to me at least, is that you're an active, interacting part of it, and when people are tied to the setting out of their own volition I do find you really notice the difference.

Speaking of good mechanics, there's a short RPG called "This party sucks" which I absolutely love in part due to its theme, but relevant to the discussion also one of its mechanics; "I feel called out, but please continue". The game itself is knowingly going to touch on some very personal subjects, it's part of the point, so it makes sense to have a mechanic which doesn't mean the scene should stop but at the same time let's one metaphorically go oof when you really feel something.

Sadly that book is a bit too short for a full book club week, but it's why I'm considering sometime doing a week which is just a bucket of very short RPGs (1-12 pages) folk have mentioned.

Anyway, I digress so back to Heart haha.

[steep sun]

For those who may not be aware, Vaesen is still free today: https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/319119/Vaesen--Nordic-Horror-Roleplaying

I'd be remiss to not mention that in a book club, when I'm both from Scandinavia and it's Halloween ;).

[brisk lake]

Good shout, I completely missed this

[frail ledge]

Bluebeards Bride is also currently free!

https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/224782/Bluebeards-Bride

WILL YOU OPEN THE FINAL DOOR?

A young bride is wed to an ugly, but powerful man with a blue beard. He invites her to explore the house...but one room is forbidden. Eventually, the young bride falls prey to her curiosity and opens it, discovering the gruesome display of former brides murdered...

Explore Bluebeard's mansion and create your own beautifully tragic version of the dark fairy tale with Bluebeard's Bride. Experience the nightmarish memories that haunt the rooms of this broken place and discover the truth of what happened here. But it is up to you and your friends to decide whether or not you are a faithful or disloyal bride.

Bluebeard's Bride is an investigatory horror tabletop roleplaying game that makes use of the same rules-light engine as Apocalypse World, Monsterhearts, and Urban Shadows to create stories of feminine horror in the vein of Crimson Peak, American Horror Story, and The Company of Wolves.

[orchid moss]

I've played Bluebeards a few times now its very good and made me really uncomfortable in the best ways

[next whale]

I've never played Bluebeards Bride because I feel too masc to run it

Which sounds dumb but it's a very uncomfy, very woman-centered horror

[night pelican]

no that makes sense

it's pretty heady and wrapped up in women-being-fucked-up-by-men headspace

[vestal aspen]

This might be going off topic too much, but I've heard some people talk about Thirsty Sword Lesbians in the same sense
like you don't technically have to play as lesbians, but that's kinda the expectation if it isn't strictly declared in advance that you're not gonna be playing as lesbians. Even if you were to say something like "you don't have to play as lesbians" a lot of players will create lesbian characters
not the exact same situation since Bluebeard's Bride is explicitly about a woman according to the rules and expectations of the game system, but

Anyway Heart am I right

[next whale]

Dungeon Bitches is in kind of the same space?

but it's more about gender fuckery and not fitting in, so while it is kinda over there, it's so queer that I feel okay

existing in my weird agendenby state

[steep sun]

The heart does manifest your thoughts and dreams into reality, so technically these talks are also about heart ;).

[steep sun]

I wasn't aware of Bluebeard until you shared it, but from what you wrote and what I could see on the page it seems like something I'll have to sit down with. Very compelling in a deeply uncomfortable way (though uncomfortable doesn't mean bad, as you said yourself).

[steep sun]

---

Question Post (2): Heart; The City Beneath
Week 4

We have now had the chance to read Heart for two weeks, and whilst there are more tiers one can delve down into it's also time to delve into one's own thoughts.

With time to reflect and think about the system, is there anything in particular you've found yourself pondering about? This could be the mechanics, themes, or an independent idea which arose whilst reading.

Heart is quite clear about ensuring the time we play a character as they are is short, both because their journey with us will have a definitive end but also because they are altered each step along the way. Still, this doesn't mean the impact they've had on the works ceases, exemplified best mayhaps by the witch's zenith which permanently alters a place in the world. This gives the setting a transient character, yet one which acknowledges that even fleeting things can change us deeply. How do you feel about the concept of transience, journey and delving in Heart? Are there any other themes or narratives you loved, or believe were executed well alongside either on their own or in relation to for example the mechanics of the system?

Is there anything you've been wanting to talk about or mention, directly or tangentially related to Heart, which you don't feel you've had the opportunity to? If so, what is it?

Of course I'm also curious to hear any thoughts on specific parts of the narrative, mechanics, setting, and more of the book as well!

Other than that, would you want a third week for Heart or do you feel that these two weeks have been enough :). I'll not post a vote today, at latest it'll be tomorrow, but am asking to see where folk feel they're at with the book.

Take care, and don't go delving too deep into the hearts of yourself or others. Much is found there, much which may be best to leave be for now.

[vestal aspen]

are we voting on the third week or? didn't see anyone respond

[brisk lake]

TBH I've had a very busy weekend but I felt content with what I had contributed last week

[elder laurel]

I would appreciate a third week, personally.

[steep sun]

I was evaluating a bit where folk were at, but think people have had said most of what they wanted to say about the book at this point so thinking of taking a chill week :). Both so those who want to can have the chance to finish up the book and talk, and also to talk about other things if they want to.

I'll be posting the vote as usual on Friday :).

[vestal aspen]

I'm a slow reader and I can for sure spend more time on it, though I've also been busy doing other stuff

[steep sun]

I'd say we have a chill week then, and then on Friday I'll post the vote like I said :).

[elder laurel]

kinda unrelated/related, but one of my favorite things about ttrpgs is when they have a really cool page I can use wholesale for landing pages in TTRPGS or sending players for vibes

its rare that i find one, but Heart is actually what sparked it

such a fun visual design with it sinking down, the thick bold/red text

you just feel like you're getting pulled into the book

quick question though: what does it mean to refresh a d6 or a d8

noting down that I really don't enjoy the idea of 1/session abilities, because a session is rarely consistent across gaming groups. I've always been wary of mechanics like that that also don't include forced pacing. Curious how it feels in play.

[thorn sun]

<-- has played heart before
the 1/session abilities are fine, their effects arent really universally applicable enough to make me frustrated at not getting to use them again in the same session

like deep apiarist's "talk to someone for 5 minutes to unleash their base impulses" is only rly gonn be useful Once in a session of dungeon-delvin

[thorn sun]

also this is a bit of spire terminology that got ported over w/o clarifying the meaning
basically you remove stress from any one resistance equal to the die result

[elder laurel]

ahh ty

i got distracted by glitch 😦

[steep sun]

So, this is a shot in the dark but has anyone heard of a french RPG from the 80s called Féerie? It sounded interesting and I wanted to put it on the votes for today, but haven't been able to find a copy of it sadly (which I'm guessing might be because it's untranslated?).

[elder laurel]

Nope, never heard of it

[steep sun]

Aw, I'll see if I can't get my hands on a copy.

[next whale]

Not many french games get translated

I've read a couple

[steep sun]

Suppose I have reason to refresh my french then.

[steep sun]

(Vote post a little later today, was very sleepy yesterday :).)

Preemptively the list is

1. Mothership
2. Wildsea
3. Nibiru
4. Beam Saber

Considerations which didn't make the list this week include Monster Care Squad, I'm sorry did you say street magic, Night's Black Agent, and the one closest to making it Desert Moon of Karth.

I'll make the more proper post later, but the four listed at the beginning are the ones tentatively being considered :). This does also mean that Heart will come to a close by the end of this week, for those who want to share some final thoughts or talk about it more.

[brisk lake]

(Heads up on Nibiru: it’s currently in a Bundle of Holding for the next few days: https://bundleofholding.com/presents/Nibiru)

[steep sun]

Oh just realized another game which should probably be on the list; 5. Eclipse Phase 1e (2nd edition is good but I don't know if it's free for everyone, plus it's 1e that is the more well known copy.)

[brisk lake]

Mothership does have 0e out, but I don’t think I’ll vote for Mothership until 1e lands properly (it’s currently only available to backers on Backerkit iirc? But late backing is allowed)

[steep sun]

Figured out why I was so knackered lol, and it might be that I have gotten sick. I'll make a quick and dirty vote post then for this week but nothing as elaborate as usual :).

[steep sun]

---

Vote for the next book
Halloween has come to an end and we are now approaching the months of bells and jingles. They have however not reached us yet, so the theme instead has us moving our gaze elsewhere. To space.

1. Mothership
Mothership is a sci-fi horror roleplaying game
Normally the authors' own pitch would be what's posted here, but I felt it worth noting that Mothership hasn't yet had its 1e released.
https://www.mothershiprpg.com/

2. Wildsea
Some three hundred years ago the empires of the world were toppled by a wave of fast-growing greenery, a tide of rampant growth spilling from the West. This event, the Verdancy, gave rise to the world you’ll explore as you play - a titanic expanse of rustling waves and sturdy boughs known as the Wildsea. https://felixisaacs.itch.io/thewildsea

3. Nibiru
Nibiru is a science fiction tabletop roleplaying game, set in a massive space station in a neighboring solar system. It tackles themes of memory, nature and artificiality through simple mechanics, evocative art and immersive worldbuilding. https://www.araukana.com/nibiru-3

4. Beam Saber
Beam Saber is a Forged In The Dark game about the pilots of powerful machines in a war that dominates every facet of life. They are trying to do their part, then get out physically and mentally intact. https://austin-ramsay.itch.io/beamsaber

5. Eclipse Phase 1e
Eclipse Phase is a detailed science-fiction exploration of uncertain futures. It investigates the nature of transhumanity as it transforms itself, physically and mentally, into something posthuman.
1e https://giantkiller.itch.io/eclipsephase-1e-archive

Edit: 2e is also freely available, so the version has now been changed to Eclipse Phase 2e unless folk really want to do 1e :).

[steep sun]

As always, vote by reacting to the post with the number which corresponds to the book you want to read.

If you have any systems or other books you'd want to read in the future, feel free to add them to the form which can be found in the pinned comments of this post.

[fervent dome]

If I may, I will chime in and say that all of Eclipse Phase, including 2nd ed., is freely available on the website of one of its creators thanks to its CC BY-NC-SA license: https://robboyle.info/#eclipse-phase-pdfs That isn't to say that purchasing the books isn't encouraged, but they do make all of EP available (with a bit of a delay for new books as they come out) for those who can't :3

It's a big download because it has everything

[toxic wasp]

there's music in there

[fervent dome]

There sure is

[elder laurel]

Honestly EP kinda scares me even as a 2 week book club endeavor haha

[fervent dome]

There is a whole lot of it

That's entirely valid

[steep sun]

Ah okay, thought 2e might be freely available but couldn't find it.

In that case I'll change it to 2e, with 1e being considered for the future or if people feel very strongly on it :).

[steep sun]

With particularly long works we can divide it up rather than having to read the entire core book, and if there's substantially more left have it be something we can return to at a later date :).

Note, with these votes it's only ever going to be one book at a time, even if there are more than that in the system. Supplements are their own options/weeks rather than baked into the main system, which is why modules have now and then been something one can choose to vote on :).

This is done to limit scope, due to works such as Eclipse Phase which have a lot of extra material.

[steep sun]

It is currently standing between Nibiru and Wildsea for this week. I'll give it some more time for anyone who wants to vote, but if it's still equal I'll just do a coin flip :).

[steep sun]

I'll close the vote in about an hour or two, and do a coin flip if there are two choices at the top. The loser of the flip will be available to vote on next time to make it a bit fairer :).

[steep sun]

Still split, so will flip a coin.
Heads: Wildsea
Tails: Nibiru

And got tails, on the Google coinflip, so it'll be Nibiru this week then.

[steep sun]

---

The next book has been chosen; Nibiru

Nibiru is a science fiction tabletop roleplaying game, set in a massive space station in a neighboring solar system. Players take on the role of Vagabonds; people who woke up in the space station with no memories of their past.
Nibiru tackles themes of memory, nature and artificiality through simple mechanics, evocative art and immersive worldbuilding.

Nibiru is mayhaps most succinctly described as strange. The character sheet people are handed makes this immediately clear with its rather esoteric layout, as does the themes and setting as one slowly comes to see more of it. Fitting mayhaps as you play as someone estranged to the world they live in through the loss of memories, and who comes to find their place in it again through memories both new and old.

Website for the game: https://www.araukana.com/nibiru-3

And at the moment of writing, I think this sale is still up for those who wish to purchase it for a bit cheaper: https://bundleofholding.com/presents/Nibiru

[brisk lake]

oh shit, the DTRPG book has an audiobook version EDIT: of Nibiru*

[steep sun]

Of Nibiru? Oh that's interesting

If it's the entire core book, I'm not sure I've ever come across that before

[brisk lake]

Definitely not something I’ve seen before either so it’s fascinating from an accessibility perspective

[steep sun]

Agreed, I'm also curious about it from the angle of setting a tone for the, well, setting. Something I've encountered with Nibiru in my brief experience with it is a tendency towards good themes but with a sometimes pervasive vagueness (might be due to lack of direction, I suppose I'll see when reading it more thoroughly).

I wonder if actively presenting the book, as is done with audio, would make the framework feel more concrete and thus alleviate the issue.

[elder laurel]

i think it was in a bundle awhile back so people may have it from somewhere on itch.io

[steep sun]

Nibiru has a rather distinct character sheet, and I'm not going to lie looking at it one of my first thoughts was "oh this might be useful in my DND campaign!".

I've lived long enough to become the villain .

The character sheet is available for free here: https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/300493/Nibiru-Character-Sheet-FREE

[elder laurel]

i think my players would explode if i handed them that sheet

stylistic sheets are cool but wow that takes up so much space

[steep sun]

I do feel that's a critique one can make of the book overall, in that its presentation is oft akin to form over function. Mind you the alien, esoteric aspect of the game is also evocative of the themes of the setting, but whether or not that's conducive to a good game is a different question. I feel it can be, but it is also much more demanding due to it. Like the actual rolls and mechanics I don't think are too complex, so the presentation is what's used to make things strange.

In my particular case though any campaign I run has a tendency to veer towards the surrealistic. As such the presentation of this character sheet happened to align with something which needed to be formalised either way, namely the concept of trading something you have for something you cannot possess.

I'll acknowledge the living stereotype I'm being with regards to folk running things in DnD they really shouldn't haha. Still, I'm happy to do so for the sake of keeping in contact with people.

[viral snow]

I haven't read the book itself but I've been around enough to remember people just losing their mind about the sheet.

[steep sun]

---

Question Post (1/2) : Nibiru

So I have to admit, I'm drawing a blank regarding questions for some reason but think there are still ones of note.

-Nibiru is known as a more esoteric RPG, do you agree and if so why/why not? Considering its core themes do you feel this detracts from it or not?

-Heart, the work prior to this, dealt with themes of the unknown mind; delving into what was unknown of its past, its present's unconscious, and what it may become in the future should it continue down the path its own. Nibiru deals with memories in an eldritch yet familiar landscape as well, and I'll ask how folk feel it and Heart might contrast eachother?

Since I'm a bit light on questions this week, feel free to complement with thoughts of your own :). Currently thinking of letting Nibiru run for one more week, and then come Friday next week will be when the next vote will be (again, unless everyone says they're done with it already).

[elder laurel]

Notably, it's a very bold take to have the first four chapters be lore, and only in the 5th chapter do you end up in the mechanical rules section.

Surprisingly high lethality, it looks like you can die in one particularly bad combat roll.

It's interesting how much Violence, Helplessness, and Unknown (Unnatural) are shared across Delta Green, Nibiru, and Unknown Armies. Are they all learning from the same source or coming across the same approximate models of "stress" in psychologically traumatizing situations.

Unknown Armies (2e) also has Isolation & Self, which I guess is less elegant (3) than the other two, due to some amount of overlap with the major triad.

Honestly, it's not even lethality that really confuses me about this game. It feels like this game is going to be a ton of dramatic and drastic swings, both in terms of emotional death (your character's reaction to emotional trauma/stress) but also physical death (just dying flat out).

If I'm parsing this system correctly, you effectively construct a playbook during play based on the rolls that you succeed/fail or choose to succeed/fail (MEMOs), with the revelations being effectively like gaining abilities in a playbook? And then this is attached to a relatively standard free-form resolution system with the d4s?

And then they also looped in the body/psychological system to round out the rest of the experiences they expect to happen in Nibiru

1. It's definitely different from most ttrpgs I've read, purely through presentation by emphasis on the lore. Esoteric (definition): intended for or likely to be understood by only a small number of people with a specialized knowledge or interest. I think it definitely fits the bill, because I couldn't really offer this game to like 95% of people I know. Running/playing this effectively sounds like you need to really control tone, especially within the setting.

2. I find it interesting how both Heart and Nibiru pull tricks to make sure that the players are simultaneously invested in the concept of the game (the Heart, the Memories) but force the players to construct characters that are not truly aware of the conceits of the game (what's in the Heart, what's the world of Nibiru like). It's a very player-friendly approach (minimal backstory except when it's immediately relevant) while giving space for the GM to set the story where they see fit. In Nibiru the characters are inherently meaningful people in the fiction, whereas in the Heart they're not technically that different from the other characters in the setting, but in both cases, the themes chosen for each character really tell you what game they want to play (giving a form of player agency through meaningful signposting).

I'm inherently biased against Nibiru though because character creation is in chapter 6 and the rules are in chapter 5 though. Stylistic decision or not, definitely not a fan.

Read through the adventure. Not really feeling like I understand the kind of story that this game was designed to tell any more clearly.

Broadly speaking, this kinda reminds me of Degenesis, in the sense that it's more setting than substance. Which is fine, normally, just not when I'm expecting a ttrpg.

maybe if I consumed more scifi i would look more kindly on this one 😦

[elder laurel]

Oh I do love the Gravity mechanic, that's the thing I was most curious how it would interact with the lore/system and then it really didn't do anything cool with it

Was waiting for acclimation to Gravity to be some statement about how the status quo is inevitable or something

[elder laurel]

I realize what the character sheet reminded me of! The Dead Space spine HP bar

[elder laurel]

thinking over it, i would read a nibiru version 2 that was more streamlined

[steep sun]

I do think a lot of the aesthetics are modelled after the nervous system, the spinal parts being more obvious than the others mayhaps but dendrites and neurons popping up here and there as well.

Part of what had me interested in Nibiru after Heart, and why I voted on it, was because it felt like it was attempting something thematically similar but with a completely different approach.

Presentation especially differed a lot to me, and I'll be honest I found Heart's execution and approach better. Nibiru does do interesting things and has some concepts in it I like, but the reason I personally felt it was difficult to parse wasn't due to the subject material but the presentation. If I were to be harsh about it, Nibiru built itself an ivory tower.

A second edition which streamlines it whilst simultaneously even accentuating the surrealistic parts would definitely help it a lot I feel. I'm happy it exists, but I'm not sure the parts which makes it difficult to recommend are simultaneously parts which help it. The ideas though are definitely interesting, and harsh as I'm being the setting and use of memories is fun one. Gravity itself I hadn't thought about as much, but will have to look at again now.

[steep sun]

Don't think the issue there is on you; your assessment is pretty much the same as what I felt. It's a system which works well as something to ponder on and read for inspiration, but it can falter a bit I felt when you start biting into it.

[steep sun]

(have had some very busy weeks as exam season closes in, which is why there wasn't a vote/question post last week :). If someone else wants to run one, feel free to :). Nibiru can prolly be considered concluded now.)

[elder laurel]

No problem! I caught covid so I'm down for a bit of downtime

[brisk lake]

get well soon!

[steep sun]

Oh no! Wish you a quick and uneventful recovery!

[tender steeple]

Putting my foot in here so I can find it later.

[elder laurel]

That's very true, good observation. Another reason that I thought Gravity would be more interesting, it takes up so much effective space on the character sheet, and takes up a significant portion of the center specifically.

I might scrounge around and see if I can find any designer notes/videos on how the game is supposed to be run

I really tend to like those for games like this, especially when I walk away from a system unsure of what exactly they want me to do with it.

[steep sun]

Just noting that I'm looking to start things up again soon :).

Can't give an exact date, but if anyone wants us to read any specific RPG work, remember that you can add it to the form found in the pins in this channel.

[brisk lake]

Looking forward to taking it easy this month with some more book club reading 😌

[tender steeple]

Maybe something festive?

[steep sun]

If you have anything specific in mind, it would be lovely to have it added to the list https://forms.gle/uRKPqiJ8GcvJiVHd9

In general I tend to try to have a theme with the works being voted on for the week, with at least half of the options listed being from stuff folk have recommended in the form. After that availability, if it relates to a concurrent topic or previous work, and just if it is interesting for one reason or another is at the top of the list. Tis why many of the works one can vote on have been in recent rpg bundles or are free :).

Honestly a big takeaway I've had from this entire project is an appreciation for Lancer's approach to things. It dives right into things, is sleek with the presentation plus rules, and knows the importance of art and first impressions.

It's not necessarily perfect, but I'd contrast it with for example Nibiru, or most RPGs honestly. Having things to compare to really helps highlight different parts.

Was considering writing a post on insanity in RPGs, with Call of Cthulu being the elephant in the room, but I'll probably let that one cook for a bit longer.

[tender steeple]

On the topic of insanity, I've yet to find one that treats it with any kind of seriousness. It's always that pulp fiction, victorian understanding of the concept and its just...so bland.

And even then, when something tries to branch out, the end result is usually just a debuff of some kind that's just annoying to deal with, rather than try to do it more justice

It's mechanically bland.

[steep sun]

Yeah, part of what I wrote about was that General Adaptation Syndrome and PTSD are areas I feel one can explore with mechanics about fatigue and wear

But instead we get... Well what you just described.

[tender steeple]

I've yet to read it, but wraith the oblivion plays with the concept a little with the whole 'shadow' mechanic, where another player at the table has to play the negative influence within your soul.

I do think there is some value in exploring that angle a little more, but it does create a bit of a barrier in that not every group is gonna want to pick up and play a game where someone else at the table gets to dictate aspects of their characters mental conditions.

[steep sun]

This was what I'd written myself about it.

Whilst I get things in order on my end, something I've been thinking about lately is insanity mechanics; or more generally mechanics relating to changes in one's perception of the world.
In Heart and Nibiru you're presented with aspects of the game representing the eerie, such as Gravity in Nibiru or the levels in Heart, but also ones which represent adapting to the world and even becoming part of it. There's a zenith ability in Heart especially, belonging to Witch where you become an inexorable part of this underground maze you're traversing.
To me these mechanics represent becoming acclimated to if not the stress of the world then the unreality of it. Madness is there the superimposition of an abberrant, eldritch logic upon that of normal, daily life."

[tender steeple]

Oooh.

[steep sun]

After that I went really in on Call of Cthulu and not liking its approach haha, but I felt I wanted some more meat on my understanding of things before making that judgement because I do get where the appeal comes from.

But also, for reasons you've laid out, I don't like its approach nor the underlying reasons for it.

[tender steeple]

The call of cthulhu approach works for it specifically, if only because that is how it works in lovecrafts own writing. So it's emulating the source material decently (I do think trail of cthulhu is the superior cthulhu game, but that's another topic).

The problem is everyone saw it, liked it, and just...copied it without thinking how divorcing the mechanic from its original context would affect things, or how it should be changed to fit a new one.

[steep sun]

Another issue is that I've wanted to read more about PTSD, GAS, stress, and psychology from an academic angle, but knowing where to start there means I need to find someone who's in the field for some recommendations, and I'm lazy :P.

[tender steeple]

Just start with a GSCE text book.

Literally the stuff they teach people with in secondary school and stuff.

It's as good an entry point as any.

Just remember that the zimbardo prison experiment is complete bullshit.

As for mental conditions, it's like...there's a lot of nuance that'd need to be gamified, and that brings up the issue of just how tastefully you can even do that.

Like, say, PTSD. you suffered something traumatising, and now it's something that looms in your mind, day in and day out. How do you represent that in a way that isn't going to be seen as distasteful?

My gut says "when you gain PTSD, you and the GM decide on a phrase that is associated with the event. Whenever you encounter something relating to it, make a check, on a failure....'

[steep sun]

Ah yeah it's also that I want to hunt down such academics for other reasons as well, since I'm in the medical field anyway and clinical psychology happens to overlap a lot with the area I want to work with :).

But ye, should get that in order.

As for representation, it's a good question and why GAS is mayhaps what I lean more on myself.

My own preference is to not have mechanics be what represents themselves, but I do also have the benefit of not having to write for a general audience.

"This party sucks", whilst not about PTSD or GAS, is a book I felt handled mental health well though.

[tender steeple]

I'll have to give it a peel some day.

For my part, I'd like to try and find a way to do it mechanically, if only because it might help make the topic of mental health and the like more approachable to people who might otherwise struggle to comprehend it?

Then again it could come off poorly, so, fine line to walk

[steep sun]

It's good to try to put things in one's own words, as long as one is willing to reflect on them as well. After all if there are any mistaken assumptions there, they are made known through the process and one has the chance to learn from others about it.

[tender steeple]

Wise words 😌

[steep sun]

But yeah the reason I myself don't prefer mechanics is less due to a condemnation of them, and more because when dealing with unreality* I prefer letting it set in through the players themselves. It's what the reflection on insanity mechanics was about originally, because I realised me not enjoying them was more due to them being a hindrance more than a boon for me because of how I approach things :).

CW: Crawly skin stuff ||If you have sketches of butterflies etched into your skin and see them, feel them, squirming around trying to eat yet not quite eat you, that's a scenario where adding "you lose 1d6 sanity" to the end would have felt superfluous to me. Just to use an example from my own campaign.||

*I'm using unreality and not insanity just to distinguish it from the clinical stuff. I don't want to give my players PTSD ;P.

[paper sand]

The best "sanity" mechanics I've seen in a game are with Unknown Armies

As it includes forms of sanity that include both unreality and mundane stressors like isolation and violence without compressing all of them into a binary stat. 3e is interesting about it too, because exposure to such stressors, even if you succeed the checks, invariably changes the way you see and approach the world

Unfortunately Unknown Armies probably wouldn't make a good Book Club book, since it has 2-5 volumes, none of which are short, and it can get pricey

[tender steeple]

Its funny. The best horror experiences I've had have always come from DMs taking systems not known for horror and slapping it in.

No mechanics relating to "unreality", just letting the tone they paint create an appropriately oppressive atmosphere. Although some systems lean into this far better than others.

Warhammer 40ks only war is a great example, as I used it for an xcom campaign. The pseudo expandability of soldiers allowed me to punctuate some truly grim moments throughout it.

It's a shame only war is the only system I can name that has that element though. The idea that pretty much every PC has a grunt soldier following them who is way squishier but also very valuable as it enables certain abilities.

[elder laurel]

I've been stewing over how while Delta Green's implementation of Sanity and associated Insanity is pretty poor (you can "Break", "Adapt", etc and gain disorders), I think the most interesting part that's come up is the effect of seeing these unrealities & destablizing things on your bonds, the social things that maintain your humanity.

Effectively, skipping the actual whole "Sanity Loss" issue (how to implement, is it worth mechanizing, etc), and focusing on the actual effect of those things that people are interested in (how does this affect your day to day interactions with people, your ability to sleep at night, your conversations with your therapist, etc).

[paper sand]

I think the fact that CoC implemented the acquiring of accursed knowledge from the stars beyond (spells or otherwise) is very...gamefied and kind of representative of that time period of game design

Like, obviously sanity is meant to basically have the same mechanical purpose as humanity in Cyberpunk or essence in Shadowrun

If it wasn't there, there would be zero downside to acquiring such knowledge and you can just grab tomes of eldritch magic wherever. It feels like a direct response to that

I think if CoC was made today it would probably focus more on the ways your character has social barriers raised by the knowledge they've gained. Such knowledge doesn't actually make Lovecraft protagonists insane, but they can easily look that way to people who don't know. A guy talking about a giant squid space dragon priest in the ocean that creates nightmares would definitely sound insane

[next whale]

I've always liked the neat mechanical inverse that sanity/eldritch represented in some editions, where one eats away at the other

[toxic wasp]

Essay I've found on the topic
https://blog.bighog.games/psychosis-in-games

[steep sun]

So, after the 20th I should be able to put together a vote for the next book :).

For those who want something to read in the meantime, I just started reading through the module The Dracula Dossier and it's honestly fantastic. One section I really like, and haven't seen before, is their Sources.

There are a couple more pages than this, but having a list of the works which inspired the book, why they inspired it, and then also a little comment on each work, is an attention to detail I've not personally come across before in a module.

[tender steeple]

what's the system this tasty little thing stems from? or is the system itself called dracula dossier?

[brisk lake]

I think Dracula Dossier is a module for Night's Black Agents?

https://pelgranepress.com/2011/12/22/the-dracula-dossier/

[tender steeple]

After a quick hunt, yes.

it's from the directors handbook.

[steep sun]

Yup, the name is The Dracula Dossier (TDD). I've been reading through it a little here and there, with my thinking being that hey, mystery systems are fun and all but I'm more curious about mystery modules to see how they approach the issue. TDD happens to be one of the most well regarded modules out there to my knowledge, so decided to give it a read and was immediately impressed by the sources pages alone.

Something worth noting is how these lists of sources can reveal areas one can look into further to put your own spin on things.

"The Five: The Untold Lives of the Women Killed by Jack the Ripper" is one example of a book I enjoyed which I would never have thought to reread foe the sake of this module if it weren't for the list of sources, even though it's not mentioned among said sources.

[steep sun]

---

Waiting for the "right" moment means waiting til forever, for the right moment is something we create. With that in mind I'll start up things again now with a vote for what to start reading now in the new year!

I'll not use the old template initially for the vote post, so that it actually gets posted haha.

Refresher on how the books are chosen
Returning after a hiatus, we'll have 4 different books to choose from. As per usual you vote by reacting to the voting post with the number corresponding to the book you want to read; you're free to vote for as many as you want to.

If there's a tie, the winner will be chosen in ascending order of number (so Book 1 would trump book 3 in a tie) with any book that losses the tie automatically earning a slot for the next vote.

If you wish to submit books for us to read in the future, or want to look back at prior discussions, you'll find relevant information in a message pinned in this channel.

Vote for Week X

1. En Garde

En Garde! is a game of swashbuckling in a fictional 17th century Paris.
“En Garde!” is the cry – draw your sword and stand alongside d’Artagnan, Cyrano de Bergerac and Errol Flyn! Or join Flashman in the bar! In En Garde! you get to carouse in the clubs of Paris, charm the ladies, serve the King (or Cardinal!) and trounce your enemies

Link: https://www.engarde.co.uk/

2. Bluebeard's bride

A young bride is wed to an ugly, but powerful man with a blue beard. He invites her to explore the house… but one room is forbidden. Eventually, the young bride falls prey to her curiosity and opens it, discovering a gruesome display of prior brides’ corpses…
Bluebeard’s Bride is an investigatory horror tabletop roleplaying game based on the Bluebeard fairy tale. Find out if you will make it out of your new home alive—and if you have what it takes to chill your friends to the bone….

Link: https://magpiegames.com/pages/bluebeards-bride

3. Don't Rest Your Head

Don’t Rest Your Head is a sleek, dangerous little game, where your players are all insomniac protagonists with superpowers, fighting — and using — exhaustion and madness to stay alive, and awake for just one more night
Link: https://evilhat.com/product/don-t-rest-your-head/

4. Wise Women

Wise Women is tabletop roleplaying game in which the players take on the roles of witches living in a remote village, where life is difficult and people often fall prey to supernatural creatures.
The witches have the ability to use magical properties of plants to protect their community and help it prosper, but their skills are viewed with suspicion and prejudice. After all, magic is another supernatural force and the same plants that can heal, can also be used to cause harm.

Link: https://ksandra.itch.io/wise-women

[steep sun]

Voting is done by reacting to this message with the number which corresponds to the book you want us to read :). As mentioned previously you're free to vote for as many options as you want to.

This particular vote will probably stay up for a bit longer since I'm expecting it to take a bit til folk see that we're starting up again.

[steep sun]

I'll be rounding up the vote this evening, my time, so folk know in case you've not yet voted. :).

[steep sun]

The next book has been Chosen; Wise Women

---

Wise Women is tabletop roleplaying game in which the players take on the roles of witches living in a remote village, where life is difficult and people often fall prey to supernatural creatures.
The witches have the ability to use magical properties of plants to protect their community and help it prosper, but their skills are viewed with suspicion and prejudice. After all, magic is another supernatural force and the same plants that can heal, can also be used to cause harm.
Will the witches continue to strive to protect and improve their community, or will the prejudice drive them to lash out and turn to violence and Dark Magic?
The game is inspired by Polish and more broadly Eastern European folklore. It is based on the Powered by the Apocalypse ruleset and suitable for 2-5 players.

Link to book: https://ksandra.itch.io/wise-women

We're starting off the year with a bang with a folklore inspired title drawing upon tales and traditions from Eastern Europe. During a previous week we had "Over the fence, beneath the grave" which delved into similar areas though it was using Scandinavian folklore as a basis instead.

For now I don't have much more to say than that I hope everyone enjoyed their break and are looking forwards to reading again!

---

[steep sun]

Questions for Wise Women

We've now had a bit of time to read Wise Women I'd reckon, and hopefully also the opportunity to reflect on it :). With that in mind I'll post a few questions meant as a basis for conversation, though honestly feel free to freestyle as well~

1. Wise Women deals with themes of being ostracised by one's supposed peers, and how even the threat of it can loom over one. How do you feel the game handles this subject, through the social standing, suspicion, and Light/Dark magic mechanics? Is there something you especially enjoyed, or found yourself uncertain about?

2. Core to Wise Women is the women and folklore from which the game draws inspiration. How have you felt about the setting the authors have weaved, anything you've enjoyed especially?

3. Something else central to Wise Women are the plants and how they're the medium through which magic is wielded. What's your impression of the centrality of the plants, if not as an actor in the books then in terms of the flavour (pardon the pun)?

---

I'll probably post a vote the next book this coming Friday, with it closing on Sunday. Until then, enjoy yourselves and have a good day.

[gray tiger]

what everybody reading?

[steep sun]

A few different things at the moment, but I kinda put this on hold since I had other projects and getting it going again would need consistency over weeks :).

If there is an interest though I'm happy to do so again, will just put in the schedule, but would be interested in knowing there'd interest in doing so first.

[tender steeple]

Finished wise woman today (yes I took this long, i apologise), and I've some thoughts on it.

I found the innate push and pull of wanting to be a part of and support the community, whilst eternally balancing on the edge a unique aspect of it, especially with how your social standing can be gamed in some ways for effects. Although I'd argue that the lack of hard failure states does make the mechanic, and thus the theme, a tad toothless, since you can never end up in a situation where you're hated for helping and get witch trialed. That said, I understand why that isn't in the book, since it frees you up to taking more drastic solutions than you otherwise might otherwise avoid lest they get you killed.

I do like how the author deliberately avoids the more negative connocations of 'the witch' fictional archtype within this, implying you're much more medicine women most of the time rather than like...voodoo practitioners or something more problematic. Reminds me a lot of terry pratchetts wyrd sisters.

I like the central focus on plants and herbalism, as it ties in well with the central themes and is more authentic to what the 'wise women' of yore did. The fact you can stockpile them, share them, and hell even assist each other based on how good one person is with a certain kind of magic is great. I'm a particular fan of how it subtly forces cooperation through the plants and stats as well; going alone can work, but a well stat spread coven can tackle almost anything.