sure, because a lot of the things that would otherwise be small, no repurchase charms further down a tree are instead submodules that don't cost charm slots
#Exalted
bleak hazel
the general idea is surely that you want to have more charms than slots, so you can use the fact that your charms are cheap as hell and have, at the very least, uptime and downtime suites
velvet raft
Ah, wait, I did not see the rule about submodules
That is ... at least better
Still inclined to think it should be repurchases in general, but it feels more reasonable
fierce star
yeah, submodules are free and valid, my issue that realistically speaking you're probably psending nine charms (once at essence 5) on transpuissiants alone, if not more, for either setup
but if they don't, as misc has put, you just spend nine charms to get +3 to every stat forever, which is busted?
Id unno.
maybe repurchases only start taking more charm slots after the second purchase? like, you can fit two of the same charm into one slot
velvet raft
It feels kinda like the entire issue is with transpuissant
And that needs to be rethought and maybe given escalating costs
bleak hazel
Huge Stats is just the alch thing, I think that's the point
twenty charms + submodules is more like 30/35 normal exalt charms
and then you have another 35 in the batcave
fierce star
yeah, the old--I think it was seventh excellency? Migh thave been fifth?--for alchs wa salways the big one, but, I dunno
it's less a blaance thing here and more a gamefeel thing I think
velvet raft
Also by the time any other Exalt gets to Essence 5 they can easily have 52 charms
fierce star
being fair the alchemical is probably going to have like. 70/80 at that point, just only 32 active at at ime
velvet raft
Active at any time matters a lot
I agree that huge stats feels right for alchemicals but I don't know if I think Transpuissant in its current form is the best way of achieving that.
velvet raft
I guess it's not really an issue in an alchemical-only game, which is the default assumption
Anyway alchemical with thousand blades
mighty rover
yaaaaaay
velvet raft
What weapon should she use
mighty rover
first instinct is guns but thousand blades can't do that can it
wise ocean
nope
mighty rover
Spears
prisma sun
Gunblades
bleak hazel
direlances are fun
velvet raft
Ooh, what about chakrams, in combination with Thousand Wounds Gear?
fierce star
I was about to suggest gyro chakrams
velvet raft
That also works with the notion that people think she's some sort of statue of Mela
Since chakrams are the air weapon
... wait can recursive trajectory cut be used with melee attacks? It feels like an oversight but nothing rules it out, and it would be extremely fitting for Thousand Blades
velvet raft
There's no rule saying a dog can't play basketball ...
mighty rover
Sporting Canine Transgression
No law can bind the Lunar that has not been put to ink
velvet raft
It occurs to me that it's reasonable to have only 4 weapons for thousand blades at least starting out, since the form charm will boost Arsenal to 5
bleak hazel
Honestly starting with even 2 is fine
That martial art is extremely strong, almost SMA tier, and works incredibly with ranged kiting, which you can do tons of with those weapons
6 arsenal 1kB is going to melt most things and might be more fun to build up to, although I could see starting with lots of weapons if you've picked one that isn't easy to find or craft
prisma sun
what book is 1kb in again
mighty rover
Lunars i think
prisma sun
tis nae
chilly sluice
what book is 1kb in again
Many Faced Strangers
prisma sun
Incredibly funny concept
So many solars died to deebs in the usurpation because barely any wore armor so they could do SMAs
Anima Flux melted those bastards
tulip folio
Hungry Lethe Call
Cost: 4m; Mins: Martial Arts 2, Essence 3
Type: Simple
Keywords: Decisive-only
Duration: Instant
Prerequisite Charms: Cutting The Strings
This supplements a Decisive Attack. If the attack gets 3 or more successes on the Initiative roll, it slices a fragment of the target's soul off into lethe. Choose one Sense or Limb. The target suffers a -3 penalty crippling on all actions that involve that sense or limb until the end of the scene. Penalties from multiple senses or limbs stack (Such as a blinded target attempting to swing a sword in a disabled limb) but the same sense or limb cannot be affected more than once in a scene.
If this incapacitates the target, their entire upper soul immediately passes into Lethe. In addition, their lower soul will not rise as a Hungry Ghost. Beings who's souls would not pass into Lethe when killed (Such as Gods, Dragon Kings or Jadeborn) are still affected this way, being spun into a human life for their next reincarnation to better understand life through human eyes before their native form of reincarnation reasserts itself.
Enlightenment: The charm slices a fragments of the target's soul as long as there is at least one success on the initiative roll.
Yeah. Doesn't Fully Take The Limb off/Anti-Crippling effects will cure it pretty quickly.
But it does allow some pretty easy, reliable crippling effects.
Which works on 'Doing damage' and 'Doing gambits' decisives.
velvet raft
Hm. It's not entirely clear whether Transpuissant increases the dice cap, unless I'm missing something
tulip folio
Hm. It's not entirely clear whether Transpuissant increases the dice cap, unless...
If it's taking you to any number under 5, it's a full stat point for all purposes.
If it's taking you to numbers above 5 it's charm dice/won't improve cap
fierce star
yeah
velvet raft
I see that it's charm dice, but I don't see anything saying it won't improve cap.
fierce star
Iii
velvet raft
(Or that it will)
fierce star
think gkat might be right on a read here, actually, in regards to over five improving cap
it just also uh
is a charm dice itself so you can't spend more on it
so like, if you're dex 8 (5 with three transpuissants), and essence 5 and you make an attack, your dice cap would be 13 but 3 of those are filled with your transpuissiant
but like, the abyssal charms that add appearance increase dice cap there too AFAIK so
I dont' see why this wouldn't?
velvet raft
Yeah, that's what I was presuming
It basically gives you an extra point of dice cap and then immediately fills that
Tangentially related, if this is my layout so far, what do people think in terms of alchemical charms?
fierce star
appearance 5 intelligence 1
BIMBOT
(this is a positive statement)
so room for 7 charms...
two questions: I assume you're going to be combat primary? And what caste are you?
velvet raft
>appearance 5 intelligence 1
BIMBOT
(In this case it's more that she was one of the original First Age alchemicals that Autochthon never woke up, only accidentally awoken from being seen as a sacred depiction of Mela very recently, and so has basically no understanding of anything)
Alchs don't have a Glorious Solar Saber equivalent, do they?
fierce star
so your basic like,four-charm social setup is gonna be patriotism-provoking display and universal advisor comportment from appearance and effective leadership algorithm and universal authorization chevron from charisma
Let me double check, they have an essence cannon for ranged but I don't think they can just summon up any melee weapon
velvet raft
I don't think they do
velvet raft
But I was just trawling with ctrl-f for plausibly related terms
fierce star
(you will also want accelerated response system as your onslaught negator and essence irradiation corona as a damage adder, plus at least one purchase of strain-resistant chassis modification)
velvet raft
Hm, yeah
velvet raft
Doesn't work with the spirit of Thousand Blades either
Right now she just has the two chakrams and that's fine, just wanted to check
velvet raft
(you will also want accelerated response system as your onslaught negator and es...
Maybe those three plus the four you mentioned earlier?
fierce star
That gives you the basic combat suite and a decent social suite, yeah
velvet raft
Makes sense. Appreciate the advice.
velvet raft
Yep
fierce star
excellent
and sicne you went heavy on martial arts, plenty of room to expand early on.
velvet raft
Yep
tulip folio
I should tinker with RiRi again, work out a less 'all over the place' design for her.
Thousand Blades was tempting with her, as was the Staff/Blasting Martial Art I put together.
velvet raft
It occurs to me that staff-fighting could be really good for alchs because of compatibility with Wood Dragon
And the fact that wood dragon is silly in combination with stuff that benefits from aiming attacks
fierce star
Yeah I should maybe focus Responder down some. Maybe actually take some MA charms lol
velvet raft
to be tbh a wood-dragon/melee staff-fighting sid would absolutely wreck
"Hit guy once, you are aiming at him forever" is a hell of a thing
fierce star
She's currently looking at...
Universe: PErfected Style Matrix
Appearance: Transpuissant (Calculated Composure Submodule), Thousfold Courtesan Calculations, Patriotism-Provokign Display, EMotive Aesthetics of the Body Eelectric
Intelligence: Transpuissiant (Machine-Logic Subroutines), Comprehensive Diagnostic Algorithms, Multifunction Hypodermic Apparatus (Metabolic Accelerator), Man-Machine WEaving Engine (Distillation of Artificial Forms control spell, only spell she knows)
Perception: Transpussiant (Exquisite Proprioception Filaments, Unwavering Sniper Calibration)
Wits: Omnitool Implant (Comprehensive Surgical System)
STrength: Transpuissant (Overpowering Assault Configuration)
Stamina: Transpuissant (Hardened Body Fortification), Embedded ARmor PLating (Exoskeletal), STrain-Resistant Chassis Modification
Oh? What are you thinking?
velvet raft
Oh? What are you thinking?
Just that alchs have a bunch of "benefits from aim" charms
And Wood Dragon fuckin' loves that shit
tulip folio
That's fair
Wood Dragon + Thousand Blades seems like it could be a lot of fun.
'I'm a melee style but only very technically'
tulip folio
Staff Thousand Blades master making an escape.
velvet raft
Oh hey Emerald Gyre and VBOS are also compatible with staffs
tulip folio
brb, designing an Upgrade Patch for Alchs to let them learn SMA 😛
velvet raft
I was thinking of the wood dragon sid
Also: is this visible? https://www.lotcastingatemi.com/characters/84787
fierce star
negative
velvet raft
Dang
Guess I gotta redo it on the Master Sheet
Awkward but ultimately probably better I guess
tulip folio
```
Hungry Lethe Call
Cost: 4m; Mins: Martial Arts 2, Essence 3
Type: Simple
Key...
How's this seem btw?
bleak hazel
I am trying to find other crippling charms to compare it to but there are surprisingly few
certainly very good
prisma sun
I am trying to find other crippling charms to compare it to but there are surpri...
There's a Lunar one
tulip folio
Oh that's a very different sort of crippling (Which the game calls the same thing). That's the 'the arm is perma-gone' crippling.
While this is the 'dice penalty' crippling
bleak hazel
yeah, same with the Abyssal Melee equivalent
prisma sun
Prey-Hobbling Bite is also a crippling charm
prisma sun
bleak hazel
Wondering if I should bump Rival up to Celestial Circle once he gets there just for the Book of Three Circles options
he's a mediocre sorceror but I like the idea of him having a huge book of spells passed down to him that he can just about be the sorcerous equivalent of a script kiddie with
what one celestial spell should I have him properly learn, so we think?
fierce star
demon of the second circle?
boring though, no real control effect
maybe magma kraken
though it uses int plus stuff
hmm
tulip folio
What's rival's theme?
Hand of the Maker is a pretty cool one. Not a huge issue with being a mediocre caster if you're not trying to cast it in combat. Moves (Essence) x 5 tonnes at (Essence + Intelligence) miles per hour outside of combat.
It's great for if you ever just need something inhumanly strong to do inhumanly strong things for you
And the control gives you the ability to cast the spell without a roll as long as you're not asking it to do anything that takes a roll.
Which means you've basicly got short-range telekinesis around you for anything you wanna fluff up.
bleak hazel
Four Seasons Rival is the redsid crane enjoyer who has inherited an unreasonable mess of duties, artifacts, cover identities and folders full of plans from his elder former incarnation, all of which are studded with strangely relevant notes and messages passed down by either that one Craft charm or some kind of agreement with the pattern spiders
so I like the idea of him being kind of a mid sorceror at best, doesn't really have the talent for it, but occasionally he remembers one of the fifty spells Gleam told him to study up on right quick
unreasonable expectations from your former self/surrogate father figure/last dev's code comments/Stanley Parable narrator
anyway he has like int 2, or I would have jumped straight to Magma Kraken
fierce star
Shadows of the Ancient Past, maybe?
yet another way Daddy Previous You can leave you information
bleak hazel
there are worse ideas
there's also the Instant Mansion one, which has zero SM or willpower requirement, but isn't super useful for a Sidereal
velvet raft
Does it seem reasonable to describe Retainer 4 as representing a DB crafting buddy?
Or exigent or somebody of terrestrial scale
bleak hazel
what, just to make you more chakrams?
Utility Deeb is the classic 4-dot retainer, yeah
velvet raft
Well that, but also to run the whole "I need to be stuffed into a vat and have new charms installed" thing
I feel like a Retainer 4 and Followers 1 could potentially represent the work crew for that?
bleak hazel
I have seen creation alchs just use Followers 1 for that, yeah
retainer 2 followers 1 for the pit crew
velvet raft
Also would be very funny if the character only spoke Old Realm and the retainer translated for her
fierce star
I used Ally for my crafting buddy on my alch, but it felt more appropriate than retainer for the position i wanted him in her story
bleak hazel
I personally like keeping support crew for starting exalts at the mortal/occasionally god-blood level, because a full E2 deeb is basically a second character entirely for an E1 celestial
once you're at E3/4 you start getting charms to summon new merits into existence anyway, at which point tacking on extra deebs is far more doable for the GM
velvet raft
I would assume given it says "young terrestrial" they're more at the level of an E1 db
But either way
bleak hazel
The easy way to do it is to take the Young Dynast and tape some charms to him, yeah
and/or remove some of his bling
bleak hazel
operating in mixed parties with Lunars
coral wraith
store cat in bag
velvet raft
Hm, Ebon Shadow with White Veil ...
velvet raft
Is it possible to use social charms through an interpreter?
fierce star
I don't think there's anywhere that syas you can't, to my knowledge?
prisma sun
Is there a write up for how Legions are organized at all
I know Dragonlord is the General equivi
fierce star
let me look, just a moment
dense verge
Is there a write up for how Legions are organized at all
in The Realm, starting page 70
fierce star
... yes
I was typing it out but in hindsight just giving book and page isenough isn't it lol
dense verge
big realm
fierce star
do Lunars have three books too since most of the Threshold is lunar dominions according to FATG and Across The Eight Directions is the threshold book
dense verge
they got lunar book and many-faced strangers. so two i think
prisma sun
Most thresh hold states are just normal countries
fierce star
fangs at the gate states that the threshold is where it is solely due to the efforts of the silver pact though
prisma sun
Yeah, mainly because Dominions are the places that actively rally and attack the Realm
tulip folio
How powerful would the various X Dragon styles be, you think, if their 'When in X aura' was instead locked behind terrestial?
Like obviosuly they'd suck for dragonblooded
But pondering how they'd compare to other martial arts.
prisma sun
I feel like that takes a lot away from Deebs
tulip folio
Oh yes I'm not talking about as a real change, more 'where they'd fall relative to other martial arts if so'
prisma sun
I think that'd probably make them a lot better than most MAs
since you take an action economy requirement to get into that Aura and just make it always on
velvet raft
And you can't benefit from aura from more than one DB style at once
velvet raft
It would be an awkward adjustment, I think
The DB styles are pretty powerful in some pretty distinctive ways
bleak hazel
Power-wise wood and fire dragon would both be somewhat wonky still, but water would be everyone's favourite dip, I think
velvet raft
"hello I can flurry attacks and full defenses without penalty forever now"
bleak hazel
Well, Sidereals already have a button for that, but Lunars are eating well because how they can do that and also all the other stuff
velvet raft
Wait what's the sid button for that?
bleak hazel
Indomitable Shieldbearer Expertise, in melee
It's Versatile, so it can flurry with MA attacks
velvet raft
Oh okay
bleak hazel
I'm pretty sure you get the full benefit of the full defence on your MA parries if you're holding a shield in your off hand and not swinging with it, but I could theoretically be wrong
bleak hazel
theoretically an excellent pick for a four-armed sid
velvet raft
just get the natural shield mutation
bleak hazel
shield, hook-sword, two war fans for clashing and only -1 flurry penalty which you can negate for 1 mote
(Unconquered Crane?)
tulip folio
Alright. 2 more charms and this SMA should be done. Gunna have to check my notes to see what else I wanted this to be able to cut (Got to brainstorm 2 more E4 charms)
bleak hazel
rereading Abstract Weapon has really put me in the mood for more sidereal martial arts fights
tulip folio
Hmm...maybe another defensive trick...it's got a lot of 'Do Offensive Thing' right now.
Maybe 'clash a multi-hit or AOE attack that includes you. If you succeed on the clash, it also negates the attacks on other people'
velvet raft
Oh I finished my creation-bound alchemical https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1AwJdfL3SnJ9UYu6tPY0Jt9wm5T1MMhikGubT6wMiN78/edit?gid=655784735#gid=655784735
"I am literally blue" feels like a good excuse for Unusual Hide :D
tulip folio
Seems legit
velvet raft
Going hard on martial arts early on seems like a really good call for an alchemical
Since it leaves you with charm slots
bleak hazel
yeah it's a good pick
downside is that it slows your growth rate a bit because you're buying full priced charms not half price
so I would max out your charm slots and then take MA, personally
wait, no, I have read that wrong
never mind go wild
velvet raft
Yeah at character creation it's great
Since those MA charms are 1 charm, just like alch charms
bleak hazel
I thought you got your extra charm slots free at each essence level but you don't, do you
you have to buy those
velvet raft
Long term MA advancement is a bit slower, but short-term you get to get a bunch of new charms for very cheap
bleak hazel
so yeah, the more MA charms and spells you can cram into your starting allotment the better you're doing at XP arbitrage
at chargen, taking MA charms and evocations is great value, because those are normally 10 each
velvet raft
Yep
bleak hazel
that's a bit wonky, I'll be honest
velvet raft
It is!
Charm slots are weird
To some degree I see why alchs are played alch-only by default
They're sort of a different beast
I really like them
bleak hazel
2.5x chargen XP multiplier is a sufficient bonus for optimisation that having, say, me at the table with someone just picking cool robot parts is going to end up with two slightly different power levels out of the box
at the very least, you want all your martial art's E1 charms
velvet raft
I did skip the form charm for Thousand Wounds Gear, but otherwise that's what I did
bleak hazel
the main downside of going Crane at E1 for anyone other than a solaroid is that you don't get the Form until 2 and Crane Form really makes the whole thing go
that's still 4 MA charms at E1 between Crane and Water Dragon
I guess you throw in an evocation or two
velvet raft
Dragonblood
Starting at E2 with them is nice in a bunch of ways
Weaker on balance but fun
bleak hazel
oh yeah deebs get to go ham
velvet raft
Martial arts are great for DBs, which ... I mean that tracks, setting-wise
bleak hazel
crane is interesting for deebs because while it has very good Mastery benefits, the gap between normal and Terrestrial is quite small
so a deeb has basically the same Crane power as a Lunar, they just don't have all the supporting bullshit
velvet raft
And if you're doing water dragon/crane you can work around the terrestrial if you need to
Here's something fun for a sid: White Veil into Citrine Poxes
Both have needles as form weapons
And White Veil can do some nasty disease stuff of its own
bleak hazel
I think that's strongly encouraged given the existence of Gentle Touch of the Wicked Hand
velvet raft
The Dragon Succumbs is desperate for Citrine Poxes bullshit
"This is my enemy. He has all the diseases. Now I'll make them worse."
But also fitting the medicine theme since you literally get a euthanasia charm
bleak hazel
sid medicine is one of those trees that only vaguely understands what its thing is
in classic Sidereal fashion it's mostly about death and then your absolutely amazing A-tier healing charm is a quick dip into Craft
velvet raft
Endings, after all
bleak hazel
Sid healing is unreasonably good
One craft charm + one charm from Citrine basically replicates all the useful bits of Solar Medicine at a slightly lower XP cost, even after factoring in the dot cost
bleak hazel
second funny sid elder idea from someone on the Exalted discord: take Prismatic for Four Magical Materials form
get a warstrider
learn the warstrider moves
use Four Magical Materials Form to use the warstrider evocations without the warstrider
I am become mech
fierce star
Hmm. The alchemical I'm working on is a sorcerer martial artist but I've only taken alch charms. I guess I should change that. And adjust her stats to be more 5/1s. XP efficiency is important, I just get grumpy about it
bleak hazel
Use the Tower of Obliteration just on foot
I was thinking the seven evocations from Karvara that turn it into EVA-01
although the unlock condition on one of those requires you to eat someone while in Four Magical Materials Form
velvet raft
The warstrider evocations in general tend to be pretty wild
(Technically it might not work since "she can't use evocations for which she requires the artifact")
next delta
although the unlock condition on one of those requires you to eat someone while ...
Sidereal sighs before having to dig into an entire person's corpse
velvet raft
rereads the Craft rules and sighs loudly
The GM book cleaned these up somewhat, right?
fierce star
Not really unfortunately. Simplified but didn't rewrite the charms to work with it
velvet raft
Yeeeeah I was just noticing
bleak hazel
I was going to write a craft cheat sheet because I did subject myself to all these rules at one point
velvet raft
Looking at DB craft, it does feel less than amazing. The air and fire signature charms seem good, at least?
chilly sluice
I still never really looked into the Craft rules
you need to do smaller projects to build up points for biggers ones IIRC?
velvet raft
Also this exists in Heirs of the Shogunate holy shit
velvet raft
I still never really looked into the Craft rules
you need to do smaller projects...
Yeah. Basic projects ("I make a chair") give you silver points, which you spend on major projects ("I make a sword") for gold points, which you spend on superior projects ("I make an artifact") for white points, which you spend on legendary projects ("I make an artifact N/A")
bleak hazel
deeb craft is not great at actually making artifacts
you're basically restricted to A3 for most purposes
mighty rover
What's it best at?
bleak hazel
mundane making of things
velvet raft
Why so? Just not enough ways to gain gold XP?
bleak hazel
not enough raw dice power
velvet raft
Ah
From an in-setting perspective this does make sense, but it's also very disappointing
prisma sun
I will say that like
If you're making your own artifact
The dots are basically useless
A homebrew 3 dot and homebrew 5 dot probably have the same amount of power
For most people
upper stratus
if that's true you homebrewed them wrong though
velvet raft
The big difference is how high the essence of the evocations is supposed to go, isn't it?
upper stratus
i don't think you should make statements on the game based on an unsubstantiated claims of how other people are playing it wrong
velvet raft
Flawless Facet Realization looks pretty solid, at least
fierce star
The big difference is how high the essence of the evocations is supposed to go, ...
And how much juice the evocations have in general.
velvet raft
I think what Voy may be getting at is that homebrewing balanced stuff for this game can be rocky enough that many tables will end up with the dot values not mattering a ton
Which I think is true, but is a more pervasive issue than crafting
prisma sun
Practically speaking most homebrew is unbalanced. This is true of most systems and most tables because that's just how things play out when groups of friends try to have fun. Especially when the system incentivizes "I want to do (x) cool shit" and the systems are so complex that unless you are a hobbyist or professional game designer you are not really going to have a sense of how to balance things.
velvet raft
does some anydice oh wow yeah even a fairly top-notch craftdeeb is not realistically going to be able to manage more than an artifact 2 consistently
velvet raft
Oh, true, that's another 3 or so dice per roll
Not sure if the Fire signature or the Earth signature is better here
Probably Earth
Fire is terminus -1, but Essence non-charm dice and another non-charm die for every 10 on the roll
Earth is just +1 terminus
Earth costs 20 more gold xp (22 with strike the dragon anvil), but
Hm, with Earth you can probably hit 50 successes for artifact 3 pretty consistently
And then once you do it the one time I guess you can ride the high and spend white points on strike the dragon anvil for reroll 8s
Make it a little easier
Oh +3 gold xp
jfc 80 gold xp seems like a lot
velvet raft
IIRC in the short-lived game I was in there was a house rule that all crafting xp gained is white?
tulip folio
A homebrew 3 dot and homebrew 5 dot probably have the same amount of power
I mean, that also goes for the people writing the game looking at a chunk of the artifacts we have. XD
prisma sun
I mean you ARE immortal
velvet raft
I feel like games that run on that time scale are going to be a minority, though
And note that you can't labor on-and-off for 10 years
If you take a month off, you need to make up that time
tulip folio
It does annoy me that it basicly reads 'You are a solar' without bothering to actually just outright state it. XD
velvet raft
Crafting XP also seems ...
Okay so
"Oh 6 gold XP per major project I guess that's not so-"
"-oic"
With a relevant intimacy of "I like to make swords" and a shop you can probably get 4 gold xp per major project
fierce star
yeah hte ideal crafter sovles every problem forever by crafting at it, and also always crafts from the same four skills (two of which are artifact adn geomancy)
velvet raft
In fairness it can be 3 xp per objective if you do a really good job
So I guess plausibly it'll be about 6
Assuming you have a store called "John Exalted's Swords And Chairs"
tulip folio
I unironically think more exalts need a lot less focus on artifacts craft-wise. There should be more like 'Hey, we need a bridge here' 'Sure, gimme 5' or 'Hey, we're about to fight' 'Guess who's got fort-ifi-cations~' instead of 'and then I get a tonne of non-charm dice because the craft system is so silly numbers-wise when it comes to artifacts'
velvet raft
Well, that's kinda DBs
Hm, an essence 4 DB can convert silver craft points into gold craft points at 4:1, so ... yeah at that point you just sell baskets for a couple of days
And then you can make an artifact
Major Principle: I really like making baskets
bleak hazel
Probably Earth
I believe it comes out roughly the same, so fire is the go-to
velvet raft
Oh, because cheaper
bleak hazel
yeah
velvet raft
Of course at Essence 5 I assume the call is "both"
Would that actually get you to the point where you could maybe sorta kinda do a 4-dot?
bleak hazel
I think they're mutually exclusive as Simple charms but I could be completely wrong
and yeah, E5 deebs can do 4s reliably and 5s as a bit of long shot
bleak hazel
I unironically think more exalts need a lot less focus on artifacts craft-wise. ...
this is why my Craft Abyssal has Smithing, Architecture, Artifacts and Geomancy as his craft subjects
velvet raft
OH wait the Earth charm requires 15gxp that's stupid
bleak hazel
I think that's kind of the go-to, that's 10 skill points total since almost every splat has a charm to double your craft skill points
and Architecture is the prereq for geomancy anyway
velvet raft
That's 95 gxp with Earth vs. 58 for Fire
bleak hazel
the thing that really lets solaroid crafters go nuts is the early completion gold XP bonus
velvet raft
basketweaving DB gogogo
bleak hazel
once you can throw enough dice, you can just hammer out almost any artifact in 1-3 rolls and get a huge refund
and because you're spending so little on rolling you can just about go infinite on lower dot artifacts and almost so on anything non-Legendary
velvet raft
I'm sorry what
bleak hazel
lunars, sids, deebs and alchs actually need to use the back half of their terminus, so their projects are 3x the cost or more
mighty rover
flutebow
bleak hazel
between no early completion bonus, paying for more rolls and paying the craft XP cost of per-roll dice boosters
velvet raft
I'm mostly exploring this because I thought I'd put together the blue woman's retainer as a just-hatched DB for my own amusement
Eats a ton of ability dots, too ...
bleak hazel
I forget, do deebs have the double-craft-dots charm?
bleak hazel
that's been standard for Lunars and beyond but deebs were the first new book and apparently they could only file a few of the rough edges off Holden and Morke's stuff
because it had been ages since core and they needed to publish by deadline
so they're a little below par but still playable
fierce star
Getting the itchy brain about XP optimization sucks when you know the game you're making a character for is mid-op at best
also I might be addicted to stat swaps
velvet raft
I try to only do XP optimization insofar as it feels right for the character
Which is surprisingly often
Also I made the blue woman’s retainer to amuse myself https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-6OdU4zslK_S7NCs8ReIiN8GWOAkH_vv6T4SunfAeA0/edit?usp=drivesdk
fierce star
yeah it's just more important for alchemicals than other exalts I feel, given the price difference between MA charms/spells/evocations and alchemical charms
I think the 'right' play is only take the native charms to allow access to MA and spells and then blow all your othr starting charms on those
but that does nothign to like, fit within the theme of hte character I want to build. I considered dropping everything not directly related to her core job--medicine-0-and everything I didn't need a stat swap for, which uh
only freed up four charms
I probably don't need all these stat swaps
especially since some only give me +2 or 3 dice
tulip folio
And they're submodules, so they're cheap buys later
fierce star
Right now I have stats taht look like...
Int 5+1 | App 5+1 | Dex 2
Per 4+1 | Cha 3 | Stam 3+1
Wits 2 | Manip 1 | str 2+1
And I have the following swaps:
use app instead of manip for guile
Use perception instead of dexterity for evasion
Use stamina instead of dexterity for parry with medium, heavy, or natural weapon
use intelligence instead of wits for resolve
use str instead of dex when making non-ranged attacks with heavy or unarmed weapons
use per instead of dex when making ranged attacks
I can probably drop 'str instead of dex for melee attacks' and 'stam instead of dex for parry'
which emans I can drop my str and stam puissants to save two charms (and get me two BP back tos pend on merits probably)
bleak hazel
I don't think you need both evasion and parry carefully swapped to be amazing
especially when you're just not that choppy anyway
even some of my primary combatants dump one, I just go "fuck it, I'll just Serenity In Blood if they use unblockable"
fierce star
That's fair
I would like to be more parry than dodge tbh. Combat-wise I'm going for a throwing weapon + shield build, it's a little weird but I like how it shakes out
I could cut any combat focus entirely but the GM's already got a ton of rope for the backstory I wrote for my artifact weapon and is looking forward to using it lol
fierce star
lol
bleak hazel
is there an alch charm to make shields good?
fierce star
No but I've spent artifact juice on doing so, basically
... then again
I could instead just take teh Natural Shield mutation
hmm, though that wouldn't apply to my actual main weapon
which matters because i'm doing thousand wounds gear, which has defensive charms that are better with chakrams
though ugh, my wits is also small and 1kWG likes going before the enemy...
hmm. Also itw ouldn't be medium, either.
... huh. You only get to treat natural attacks as medium for withering attacks, not for any other prupose
that's silly
it's also four dots to do so
tulip folio
Meanwhile I'm looking at trying to focus RiRi down a bit as I worry she's a bit all over the place.
Necromancy + Sorcery + Staff Martial Arts + Social is a lot of baskets.
fierce star
yeah, whereas I'm doing martial arts + medicine + sorcery + social and like. the sorcery is mostly because I want to go into crafting later.
prisma sun
I'm considering getting Sorcery for drifts if only because the flying nimbus fits him
bleak hazel
I like just dabbling in sorcery, but it can be slightly strange to have a guy who has learned exactly two spells and still reached Celestial Circle
if GM permits I'm putting Book of Three Circles on Rival and fluffing it as "he does have a grimoire, but really his past life is just recommending he learn fifty spells at once and his long-term retention is very patchy"
still not sure what his One Reliable Celestial Spell is
prisma sun
What's the funnest dabbling Sorcery source
bleak hazel
possibly Ivory Orchid Pavilion, for better relaxation away from responsibilities
bleak hazel
What's the funnest dabbling Sorcery source
I feel you could do something with the Sid book "sponsored into sorcery by a god" thing
"sorry, I only do Obsidian Butterflies, it's regulations"
prisma sun
"I did a bender with some cloud people and now I have this strange rash and also know spells"
bleak hazel
yeah, whereas I'm doing martial arts + medicine + sorcery + social and like. the...
why does sorcery let you do crafting?
just a use for the occult dots?
fierce star
I've just shut off my computer but don't you need sorcery to repair artifacts? I know I don't need it for first age artifice in autochthon but I thought it was still needed for repair
bleak hazel
I don't recall anything of that sort for anything below First Age
tulip folio
if GM permits I'm putting Book of Three Circles on Rival and fluffing it as "he ...
I'm kinda tempted to see if I can get a 'Book of Three Circles But For Necromancy' for a character.
tulip folio
...I had a pondering for a charm to make 'I have a Greatsword instead of a Normal Sword' more tempting.
...does Saturn have a weapon associated with her? A scythe?
Restful Sleep Cut Short
Cost: 8m; Mins: Martial Arts 5, Essence 4
Type: Reflexive
Keywords: Decisive-only, Perilous
Duration: Instant
Prerequisite Charms: Virescent Eyes of Division Form
Desperate for victory, the martial artist brings the edge of true death against itself, warping the blade of Saturn's sword for a moment so that she may continue to serve.
The Stylist rolls her weapon’s base damage (Not including strength, flame or other sources of additional damage). Each success on her roll subtracts one success from the damage roll of a successful decisive attack against her.
Alternatively, the Stylist can perfectly defend against uncountable damage. Against recurring sources, the Stylist becomes immune for the rest of the scene.
Enlightenment: If the damage comes from an Enemy of Fate, the stylist may reroll 1s.
Grand Daiklaive User: "Hey, 2 more dice than the Daiklaive user and 4 more than the Short Daiklaive! Everything's coming up Heavy Weapons!"
wise ocean
Is this on parry, when you get hit...?
tulip folio
The intent is when you get hit.
You go 'Oh shit, last second attempt to save my dumb ass'
It's very good if you've got a greatsword, still very good with most other weapons and garbage if you got disarmed and are trying to do it unarmed. XD
upper stratus
...does Saturn have a weapon associated with her? A scythe?
swords on account of it being one of her constellations
tulip folio
amends charm to say sword
tulip folio
Hmm...I really wish there was more to Heavy Weapons than there is. They're cool conceptually but man, that low accuracy matters a lot more than the Slightly Higher Damage.
velvet raft
I wonder if giving them a higher defense bonus would do it
I know that goes against the mental image a lot of people have of them, but big weapons are fast
tulip folio
I think it would likely run into 'defence bonus is medium's thing'. I think part of the issue is they sacrifice a lot in accuracy for damage but...of the two ways of doing damage they're slightly better at one of them (Assuming you hit with both. They miss more often) and no better at the other one at all.
velvet raft
Medium could be at a, well, medium
But I hear you
They do get the clash bonus for being two-handed, but so do dual weapons and they have more accuracy to boot
tulip folio
I think part of it is also that melee doesn't clash that often relative to brawl.
So the clash bonus is less commonly applied for heavy weapons
velvet raft
... how ridiculous would it be if heavy weapons specifically has some kind of advantage on decisive attacks?
tulip folio
...what I'd be tempted by?
Give it a small bonus on all decisive init rolls. So a Heavy Weapon lets you just manhandle other people with gambits and hit a bit harder with decisives.
At the cost of being kinda bad at building init
velvet raft
I confess it does bug me that a greatsword doesn't let you fight like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYNy_drriXs
tulip folio
'That's a nice sword in your hand. Can you keep it in hand when I smash it with a baseball bat the size of your leg?'
velvet raft
Big weapons are fast and very, very fluid
tulip folio
It would also make Direlances really good at unhorsing, which would be fun.
velvet raft
True!
tulip folio
'+1 non-charm die on init rolls (Gambits and decisive attacks)' wouldn't likely make them outdo medium and light any time soon but it would make them a fun 'I like Gambits' and also a bit of 'Yes, I will beat your ass harder with this' weapon.
velvet raft
Need to add a bind gambit ;_;
(Yes yes I know Exalted weapons run on video game aesthetics)
(It's just kind of funny because clashing is absolutely central to how two-handed swords in particular are used)
tulip folio
That does make me think the last charm for this SMA should be a clash, to let greatswords be happier 😛
tulip folio
```
Restful Sleep Cut Short
Cost: 8m; Mins: Martial Arts 5, Essence 4
Type: Refl...
As I did this to make it a bit shinier for heavy melee. XD
velvet raft
Something that would feel appropriate is if heavy weapons loaded up on a disproportionate number of tags
tulip folio
Yeah. If they're taking 2 hands, they should have 2 hands worth of tags.
Give my Grand Daiklaive Balanced + Hacking 😛
graceful geode
Give my Grand Daiklaive Balanced + Hacking 😛
Why yes, I would like to hit a guy so hard my sword downloads his social security number
tulip folio
Hey, I play Alchs. That's an important part of my combo 😛
More Tags + that general 'slightly better at init rolls' would be very interesting for making Heavy Weapons a bit more...they wouldn't be the best at General Combat but they'd at least I feel have more of a role in like 'Hey, I would like to Do Tricky Bullshit/Manhandle my opponents about'
velvet raft
Dual light weapons would probably still be king but
tulip folio
More 'there is a reason to take this' would be nice.
velvet raft
You could absolutely get more of that "control the battlefield by manhandling enemies" vibe
tulip folio
Time-Slicing Blade
Cost: 8m, 1wp; Mins: Martial Arts 5, Essence 4
Type: Reflexive
Keywords: Clash, Decisive-only, Enlightenment
Duration: Instant
Prerequisite Charms: Restful Sleep Cut Short
The purity of her stroke is undeniable, cutting important moments of time away from her target.
The Stylist reflexively clashes an attack with a decisive attack. If she wins the clash, the target's remaining actions (Such as additional attacks or flurried actions) are cancelled. If it is the target's turn, it immediately ends.
Enlightenment: Once per scene, she may use this charm for 5m, 0wp if she is clashing an attack from an Enemy of Fate.
So to answer this, I thought Autochtonian artifice only let you skip the need to take Craft (FAA), and yous till needed to be a sorcerer to make/repair autochthonian artifice, but I went and reread that section in alchs and no it literally just lets you skip every requirement as long as you're in a metropolis
tulip folio
So to answer this, I thought Autochtonian artifice only let you skip the need to...
Cool City Is Cool
fierce star
god I hate the linguistics tax
tulip folio
I'm kinda weirded out about how linguistics doesn't like...give extra languages.
fierce star
yeah, gotta take a merit for that
velvet raft
It really should
velvet raft
god I hate the linguistics tax
I could see a more sensible, “if you have any of lore, occult, linguistics, or bureaucracy, you can read”
fierce star
also the merit being 'one language per dot unless it's a local language no one speaks outside of this specific area' is
velvet raft
Not good
fierce star
too expensive, given how many languages are inc reation
tulip folio
Especially since a character in many games is going to need like...4 languages minimum?
fierce star
like, your average dragonblooded should speak... what, four languages?
High Realm, Low Realm, Riverspeak, and a directional
tulip folio
If you're a Dragonblooded Sorcerer, you know: High Realm (I fucking hope you do), Low Realm, Old Realm (You're a sorcerer, you almost certainly studied that at the Octogram), Riverspeak and at least one directional.
fierce star
add on Dragontongue and Old Realm if they're a sorcerer
tulip folio
And that's before you get to anything Unusual.
fierce star
I think Linguistics should give one languag eper dot and you should be able to buy three languages per dot of the merit
tulip folio
Like Glacier Jade as a Sidereal from the North needs...
Old Realm - She lives in Yu Shan
High Ream - She has to work in the Realm
Low Realm - She has to work in the Realm
Dragontongue - She has to work in the realm.
Rivertongue - The most important language in creation.
Skytongue - She's from the north.
As a Bare Minimum
That's 4 dots just on 'speaking basic languages'
velvet raft
Isn’t Dragontongue mostly a poetic language?
Still, point stands
Also uh, speaking as a monolingual American
“People are monolingual by default” is
Very American
tulip folio
Well, they're Bilingual. You get 1 + Native Tongue
But Biligual doesn't even cover 'high realm + low realm + rivertongue'
bleak hazel
I generally skip Dragontongue
velvet raft
Wait do you? I thought it was just the native language
bleak hazel
Sids get the nice little perk of free old realm
velvet raft
I must have misread
tulip folio
It turns up in the merit
Rather than in chargen
Oh wait...no
that's each purchase
velvet raft
Yeah
tulip folio
Yeah, you are monoligual.
tulip folio
...I should double check how many languages Autobot City has.
fierce star
jsut Autochthonian (which is mutually intelligable with old realm now IIRC)
and various tribal languages based on it from the tunnel folk
bleak hazel
Sid gets punted through the Seal somehow and everyone is confused at this guy talking like a Shakespeare character because Autobot has slightly altered the language over the centuries
fierce star
and they're all explicilty mutually intelligable
tulip folio
Between that and being the only place with guns and cars, Autobot city is the most American part of creation.
fierce star
RAISE HELL PRAISE DALE etc
velvet raft
jsut Autochthonian (which is mutually intelligable with old realm now IIRC)
Aye, it's specifically noted that while there are local differences, all of Autochthonia speaks a common tongue
Which uh
Seems better
And there's a reason that should be so and it should not be so in Creation
But it does remove some frustration
fierce star
yeah
velvet raft
Tbh even just doing the thing Iki said with "you get one extra language" would ease things a ton
"I speak my directional language + Rivertongue" would feel coherent for a lot of characters
fierce star
'and I am literate without needing to pay a tax'. Take Illiteracy as a flaw.
It would inf act be a perfect flaw
tulip folio
'Me being iliterate was a problem, I get a bonus'
velvet raft
"I get to roleplay having a problem" is like
The entire point
Something like 2 starting languages + (linguistics/2, round up) + (languages*2 or 3) would feel very sensible
And then illiteracy as a flaw
And if you take every common language in creation and don't know what else to take but want to take more I dunno, you get to leave the slots unfilled until they have a use or something
Be one of those wacky polyglots who can pick up the basics in a couple of weeks
tulip folio
Yeah, go 'minor languages are cheaper (as it is right now) and don't need to be defined until they come up'
So you can go 'I speak X, Y, Z and have 4 Minor Language Slots'
velvet raft
I remember in New World of Darkness
They actually released an errata for the language merit because so many people from outside of the US complained "this is stupid I shouldn't have to spend 3 dots on fluency"
XD
tulip folio
Hahahah
'Help me, I'm playing someone from the european union and my character can't afford to exist'
fierce star
lol
tulip folio
How is Violet Bier of Sorrows Style if you don't have access to Mastery? I am rebuilding RiRi and going through various 'works with a staff' martial arts.
bleak hazel
As far as I can tell, extremely good
It only has a couple of mastery benefits and they are pretty minor, the big gap in VBOS is between terrestrial and neutral
tulip folio
Also: I had forgotten it works with staffs until now, as it's list of weapons is mostly 'sword sword sword sword'
bleak hazel
I was going to put it on my Alch, who admittedly is abusing Extra Arms to dual wield grand daiklaives
tulip folio
On that topic: Are battlegroups trivial enemies? I don't think so?
Mostly pondering if nuking a battlegroup into oblivion would give you back a willpower with the capstone
bleak hazel
I have absolutely no idea
tulip folio
Yay corebook Not Defining Terms.
fierce star
Hear hear, natural language is the way to go isn't it
([/sarcasm] if it wasn't obvious)
tulip folio
My personal read is 'the battlegroup as a whole isn't trivial, though individual members of it are'
bleak hazel
The two martial arts I'm most interested in using on Alchs are VBOS (very easy source of a general combat kit for an otherwise non-fighty robot) and Crane (actually has many good masteries but has very strong basic performance as well and I want that native charm compatibility)
I suppose you could also do crimes with bear style
tulip folio
Yeah, VBOS is what I'm looking at for RiRi in part becuase it seems...well rounded.
It's got a few nice defensive tricks, some big hit tricks and a good form
A form that is rather easy to get into when you're an Obsidion Butterfly blaster.
velvet raft
VBOS is extremely cool
tulip folio
'Man, where will I get a way to just spam the battlefield for injuries?'
velvet raft
My only trouble with it is that the pinnacle charm enhances the form
In a style that is centrally practiced by Sids
😭
fierce star
my alch probalby isn't picking up VBOS
the number of MAs that use chakrams is unfortunately slightly limited
velvet raft
It's basically just Air Dragon, Thousand Blades, and Thousand Wounds Gear
tulip folio
And Air Dragon is a Bit Fiddly there for an Alch
velvet raft
Yeah
Not terrible but
Not a must-have
And limits them to light armor
That said Thousand Blades feels like a really good thematic fit for Alchemicals
And as an explicitly First Age martial art it makes sense to find in Autochthonia
tulip folio
Yeah, it's next on the list for RiRi. Just a case of 'getting some artifact staffs first'
fierce star
Unsure if I'll take thousand blades, but I might
definitely taking air dragon, TWG is my first one up
velvet raft
Remembrance of Mela is starting with Thousand Blades and TWG
bleak hazel
Be nice to your poor STs and give them warning of you getting a billion arsenal
It's easily the strongest conventional MA when fully maxed out
besides Single Point anyway
tulip folio
Honestly, a lot of why I want it is the 'fly with your weapons as wings' 😛
fierce star
still a little sad I can't do thousand blades with firewands and be exusiai.
bleak hazel
Honestly, a lot of why I want it is the 'fly with your weapons as wings' 😛
Being able to just fly while bombarding people with massive Overwhelm ranged attacks and really high difficulty environmental hazards is the incredibly mean game plan,yeah
It's a mix of the E3 parts of VBOS, CMOS and Obsidian Shards
tulip folio
I was thinking more just 'flying is cool'. XD
velvet raft
Honestly, a lot of why I want it is the 'fly with your weapons as wings' 😛
I always envisioned it as running on them
They assemble themselves as stairs as you move etc.
Sometimes you just hoverboard around
bleak hazel
I am boring and instead go for the traditional single flying sword skateboard
fierce star
attach the staffs to your back and helicopter with them
velvet raft
With the long-range attack charm I like to imagine it as the weapons extending into a single spear/chain, with each one extending the range of the telekinesis for the next
There's still distance between them but
bleak hazel
While RiRi is 100% going 'I am a gundam and these are my Bit Wings'
Extremely tiny gundam
Gunpla, really
fierce star
alchemicals are just gunpla exalts
tulip folio
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1AIBgU41XmOoG64RyeaLlbXiS8dLyohKjfCUdnbpIFjk/edit?usp=sharing Alright, first draft of a SMA done, based around being so good at cutting and ending things that you've moved onto doing it to Conceptual Stuff.
bleak hazel
give it hook-swords as a form weapon, you know you want to
let us combo the sword style
you also have it written as "Amethyst Eyes" in some of the flavour text, which I'm assuming is a holdover
tulip folio
It is yeah
bleak hazel
Restful Sleep Denied is kinda lame considering Adamant Skin Technique exists for exactly the same cost, and SMAs are generally Solar-level nonsense. I admit that's hard to balance because Solars are nuts, but it should probably be somewhat cheaper
also lots of itty bitty Enlightenment effects, which I know is a personal vibes thing but I prefer when those are more CMOS-sized
the aim effect of Future Cut Short could possibly crib text from Wood Dragon's Soul-Marking Style
tulip folio
Restful Sleep Denied is kinda lame considering Adamant Skin Technique exists for...
Restful Sleep is actually based on an Abyssal Charm. XD
bleak hazel
does the last clause on Ringing Note of Death mean that the victim doesn't know they've been cursed by the local sidereal until the curse breaks? I don't see anything about that in the rest of the text
also does it actually end the fight or what
tulip folio
Vault of Undying Triumphs, the charm that I based Restful Sleep on.
tulip folio
does the last clause on Ringing Note of Death mean that the victim *doesn't* kno...
I should make not knowing more clear, yeah.
bleak hazel
Vault of Undying Triumphs, the charm that I based Restful Sleep on.
huh, I guess they nerfed Adamant Skin
that makes sense
this is slightly better still because this isn't getting you the +5-ish hardness that lets you just zap away an attack entirely
tulip folio
I think the big thing: Artifact weapons have bigger base damage than artifact armour has soak.
It is slightly worse than Vault if you're using a Light Weapon, about on par with Medium and a Bit Better with a Heavy Artifact Weapon than Heavy Artifact Armour.
bleak hazel
there really isn't that much in it, and Undying Triumphs is definitely "ooh, look, a 14 init decisive, NOPE" before all else
oh yeah, water aspects can't drown
they breathe water by default
tulip folio
...man you cheating fuckers, inventing a 'dunk yourself underwater' exorcism style when you can't actually drown. XD
Powergaming DB water sorcerers 😛
prisma sun
Being able to breathe underwater is genuinely like
the main reason I'd want to play a water aspect
bleak hazel
I might make Restful Sleep Denied 6m, just to give it The Juice
tulip folio
I'd play one to Punch People's Blood Out.
bleak hazel
but otherwise I like most of this stuff
I would simply turn my sid into a wet deeb with Exalt Ways (and then drown, because I don't get the anima powers)
velvet raft
the main reason I'd want to play a water aspect
Fun fact: you can get this as a merit with a very strong sorcery initiation!
tulip folio
I will freely admit that time slicing blade's 'Nope, turn over. Stop that bulshit' extra bit is like 90% 'Iki being salty at Solars' but hey, that's life 😛
prisma sun
That's what we're talking about
velvet raft
Oh okay
bleak hazel
I will *freely* admit that time slicing blade's 'Nope, turn over. Stop that buls...
fun fact: only partially works, because you can use Peony Blossom outside of your own turn
velvet raft
I think it gives you another bonus if you are a water deeb
prisma sun
Also Fire Deebs can survive lava, right?
bleak hazel
so if they spent enough to get their anima to max as they launched the megaflurry they can just Keep Going even if you force a turnover
Solars!
tulip folio
Oh okay
Yeah, I was joking about how the 'getting close to death for power' shaping ritual for it was invented by people for which this does not actually put them close to death. XD
Mortal Practitioners are waterboarding themselves and touching death for a hint of power, while the blue haired sorcerer is singing 'Under The Sea'
tulip folio
so if they spent enough to get their anima to max as they launched the megaflurr...
Solars!
bleak hazel
hey, great deal if you can get it
in practice "no making reflexive actions off your turn" Is something I would like to see on a Bad Touch but Emerald Gyre's very thematic one lacks it
velvet raft
Yeah, I was joking about how the 'getting close to death for power' shaping ritu...
I imagine it doesn't take if you use the ability
prisma sun
God Anima Flux fucking sucks
bleak hazel
it's mean, got to get your 1 hardness
Water and Fire Bargain is your friend, siddies
velvet raft
It's also notable that mundane armor has no hardness
Anima flux isn't hard to overcome with magic
tulip folio
does the last clause on Ringing Note of Death mean that the victim *doesn't* kno...
Added:
The affected target forgets the fight and his subsequent cursing, generally ending the fight unless he has people to remind him of what happened. His death is now certain to happen, unless interrupted.
So if you're 1v1ing a guy and you tag him with that, he goes 'Huh, what was I doing?'
velvet raft
But you have to bring magic to the party
tulip folio
As you know...you had him dead. You're just Being A Dick about how he dies.
velvet raft
Mortals fighting even a small group of DBs are going to have a very, very bad time
prisma sun
A hippo has 7 hardness...
tulip folio
Some of the Elite Mortal Soldiers have Magic Armour that seems to not be True Artifact Level.
It's expressly mentioned as enchanted
But it gives them a hair of hardness.
prisma sun
Yeah gods and magical materials can give hardness
tulip folio
Honestly, doing that seems like a pretty fun thaumaturgy thing. Giving mortal armour a hint of hardness. As that seems to be the origin of it. It seems too minor for even terrestial sorcerous workings.
velvet raft
But I think diegetically it does do what it's meant to do for DBs: make them absolutely terrifying in groups against any mortal fighting force
bleak hazel
also very good for wyld hunts because regardless of what gear or magic you have, Hardness is zero in crash
velvet raft
True!
bleak hazel
so as soon as they get you on the floor you are getting baked for 5+ damage a round
prisma sun
Yeah but like
velvet raft
Yeah, anima flux from a big group is wild
prisma sun
It's not even guranteed damage
velvet raft
Or even a small group
prisma sun
it's damage dice
velvet raft
But it's free
bleak hazel
if you're crashed and they get you to -1 or -2 wound penalty with fire flux and tag you with the poison from wood flux that's it, fight over
tulip folio
I might make Restful Sleep Denied 6m, just to give it The Juice
Went with your suggestion. I do want the defensive tools to be fun as I kinda avoided giving it a lot of 'do more damage directly' as A) I felt like you had plenty of that on the way in from Shining Point or VBOS B) That felt a bit too mundane for a SMA, I wanted to do more Weird Extra Things.
lunar magnet
If you are in crash in Exalted, those Deeb Auras will fuck you up.
velvet raft
Deebs are, as a rule, disproportionately scary in teams
A force of deebs being led by a celestial exalt with War is the kind of terror that won the Primordial War
tulip folio
The true way they killed the solars. "Hey everyone, group hug!" 50 deebs all spiking to bonfire around a solar who's wearing fancy clothes instead of artifact armour
bleak hazel
admittedly a force of random peasants without tiger warrior training led by a war solar autowins all strategic engagements
bleak hazel
so the mechanics are not representing the scariness of deeb officers particularly well at that point
velvet raft
We just gotta kinda allow that Solar mechanics are fucked though
tulip folio
I really feel like that is more a case of 'Solar mechanics have serious issues' than 'How it should work'. XD
...I should check if Abyssal War has that nonsense still
velvet raft
Anyway, the point about crashing is important, I think
bleak hazel
the solar war tree is cool but uniquely cooked because the first few charms are neat and then at Essence 2 you gain access to the autowin buttons
so if you don't take a bunch of stuff you don't need, it's the shortest solar tree
velvet raft
Because it means a group of deebs tag-teaming someone have a really good chance of killing someone the moment they get a stance-break
bleak hazel
even medicine has useful E3 charms even if the E4 and E5 ones are completely pointless
nobody needs 40 successes on a medicine roll, it doesn't do anything
unless you have Citrine Pox, in which case it does speed up your heal punching a bit more
tulip folio
Hmm...it looks like Abyssal War doesn't get that 'Autowin war' charm.
bleak hazel
they do
tulip folio
Oh? I must have missed it.
bleak hazel
it's an emergent property of the mechanics, it doesn't actually say automatically win
(because of this, it actually trumps the Sid War charm that does say "automatically lose")
for Solars, you take General of the All-Seeing Sun and Immortal Warlord's Tactic, full excellency double 7s, win strat maneuver by 20+ successes and take every strat at once
six war charms beats anyone except an E4 Warsid, to beat warsid you need two more (Battle Path Ascendant + Transcendent Warlord's Genius, which lets you infinitely loop the Ambush strat whenever your BG lands a hit)
tulip folio
Oh, I was thinking they didn't get a version of Battle-Visionary’s Foresight which is 'I autowin' if it goes off. XD
bleak hazel
yeah you don't need that
you have four layers of I win buttons
raw numbers with Immortal Warlord's Tactic, BVF for future-proofed shutting down every single other exalt, One With Five Forces or Transcendent Warlord if it actually comes down to a fight
tulip folio
Fucking solars.
velvet raft
gotta get rid of them
fierce star
solars: "I awnt to be the best at [thing]!" game designers: "So youw ant buttons such that you nevdr have to interact with the system you want to specialize in!"
tulip folio
...it's kinda depressing that 'Three layers of automatic, nearly unbeatable victory' is somehow one of the weaker ways to be a dawn.
bleak hazel
four
tulip folio
Sorry, four. XD
prisma sun
I love how becauuse of the effective size this means that literally 3-5 peasants can beat an entire army
tulip folio
And yet standing above that is Brawl and Melee being Even More Nonsense.
...I don't know where Solar Archery and Thrown are in power. People almost never talk about them. XD
lunar magnet
Core Exalted is the worst book in Exalted, news at eleven.
tulip folio
I'm going to assume 'bullshit but not in an interesting to talk about way'
bleak hazel
to get to the point of fighting an actual battle against a War Solar you have to:
- shut down a double 7s reroll 6s Strat maneuver (E4 Sid charm you can set up in advance)
- dodge Battle-Visionary's Foresight with your own pick (choose a 1 success strat, that way they can't do anything too nasty to you if they do counterpick you)
- prevent them ever sizing one of your battlegroups or having one of your battlegroups hit for 3+ extra successes by one of theirs, at which point they get to use Transcendent Warlord or One With Five Forces respectively to lock you into perma-ambush
I haven't figured out how to do anything about that last part
prisma sun
Make a deal with the God of Ambushes to make you immune to Ambushes
Use SMA to punch an H onto the word and feed your soldiers on infinite pork
tulip folio
Sidereals inventing anti-surprise attack charms that work on battlegroups.
bleak hazel
abyssals actually don't have the double 7s charm and their E2 "reflexive strat" has to be Pincer Attack, which is far more survivable
prisma sun
"Jupiter, mind helping us out because this does kind of net loss the amount of war in the world"
"Yeah this is horseshit, I got you"
tulip folio
So they're Still Bullshit but there's Less Layers of Autowin. XD
bleak hazel
wait never mind they get double 7s
just has to be a different strat
and the autostrat
and One With Five Forces
and a different charm that makes their army immune to disloyalty so the sid charm doesn't work
yeah they're just as bullshit
just in a slightly tangential way that needs a couple more charms, same as craft
this is why we need a new Jade Prison
prisma sun
put 'em back
bleak hazel
this does imply that the bull of the north can presumably just march to Mount Meru and nobody can possibly stop him in open battle
that might explain why I once saw someone saying that he was clearly not a war solar due to being insufficiently magic at war
prisma sun
The Bull of the North is just a Ride Dawn
bleak hazel
need to send in Jimmy Endings whenever a war dawn shows up and stab them quick sharp
bleak hazel
among all 300 solaroids, assuming an even distribution of supernals among the eight available to each caste, there are about 15 war solars/abyssals/infernals
(because both dawns and zeniths get war)
prisma sun
y'know
like
just because the peasants have elite drill and might 2
they're still just peasants and would lose in battle against elite soldiers right
bleak hazel
seven or eight craft supernals, because only twilights get craft
bleak hazel
they're still just peasants and would lose in battle against elite soldiers righ...
ruleswise no, Tiger Warrior Training also confers the statline of Elite Troops (and the equipment, somehow, because otherwise using QC statblocks for them would be a pain)
bleak hazel
huh, since nobody but Dawns have caste combat skills, there are only around 30 combat ability supernals, plus another 30 with Resistance or Dodge
(again, assuming even spread)
chilly sluice
huh, since nobody but Dawns have caste combat skills, there are only around 30 c...
Don't some other Castes have Thrown?
I don't quite remember
prisma sun
Nope, just Dawns
Y'know I'll be real
The Night Caste
why does the Sun get a caste where he isn't there
Luna doesn't get a Noon caste
what da hell
tulip folio
...you know, it's kinda funny just how much Mastery White Reaper style has and how impactful a lot of it is (Turning dice non-charm, extending instant charms until their next turn etc).
Lunars: "I will invent a martial art I can't use for shit."
prisma sun
Every Lunar has access to their hybyrid form
tulip folio
btw, I hope the vibes/concept for that SMA I took a shot at seem okay? SMA are kinda weird and I tried to make it do enough Weird Shit, just through the lens of an impossible extrapolation of existing skills.
bleak hazel
More combat capable Sidreals than Solars
well, all the other solars can learn to fight the normal way if they want, and some of the Sids won't be fighty, but only a few of them are going to have access to E5 Invincible Sword Princess stuff the moment they exalt
Sids all having MA as caste does mean they do pretty well in terms of potential scary combatants at least, although Lunars have everyone beat on that because a) there are loads of them and b) having at least one choppy attribute is easy
prisma sun
Also all they gotta do is shoot one Big Animal with a gun
bleak hazel
they do still need decent punching stats because if they turn into a bear with dex 1 strength 2 they are still a pretty weedy bear
but every full moon has at least one caste stat they can attack with and a decent number of the others are going to favour dex or strength even if it's literally random, so there are probably a couple of hundred lunars who are naturally pretty great at fite
fierce star
I always figure pretty much every exalt can be counted on to have, by essence 3 or so, dex 3, skill 3, and excellency at bare minimum, which is generally gonna be enough to handle most mortal threats in theory
short of bgs and really heroic mortals
bleak hazel
Jimmy PC who has two fully maxed out martial arts and 5/5/1 by that point is an outlier and should not be counted
although almost all Sids are going to have at least most of an MA by that stage judging by the ones in the various books
only Fulgent Melody is genuinely a noncombat sid
some combination of dex 1 ability 2 or the reverse
prisma sun
All of the forum Sids are martial artists except I think Briar's
bleak hazel
those are PCs, though, and I'm pretty sure PC solars are 50% melee supernal by mass
prisma sun
Yeah but Sid PCs are also 50% of all Sids by quantity
bleak hazel
this is true
also I am steadily becoming more and more impressed with Ways of Exaltation
apparently if you pretend to be a deeb it gives you anima flux, for the purposes of blending in to the deeb squad you're wyld hunting with
next delta
those are PCs, though, and I'm pretty sure PC solars are 50% melee supernal by m...
🤔 do you think Stamina or Strength contributes more to a Creation person's mass (that is, are Dawn's above or below average mass)?
next delta
apparently if you pretend to be a deeb it *gives you anima flux*, for the purpos...
Maybe every exalt is actually a Sidereal. Some are just so deeply undercover they don't realize it
bleak hazel
I'm going to go with Strength, because the lunar charm that lets you become huge and turn into a Tyrant Lizard is a Strength charm
water deeb Ways of Exaltation is good as hell, as it turns out
+Anima dice and Anima/2 flat values to Martial Arts attacks and parries + Terminal Sanction bureaucracy roll, anima flux, an anima banner that is totally innocuous and in fact adds significant social status
Sids: learn to swim good
fierce star
... maybe I should revisit my 2e sid who was a seafolk
She had an artifact atlatl and hated paperwork.
Id' have to change her relationship with her people some, since one of her core things isn't hideously illegal (or that useful) in 3e anymore
prisma sun
Wouldn't
Wouldn't water deebs be shit at paperwork
If you spend too much essence all your paper gets fucking wet
lunar magnet
Clay tablet time.
fierce star
All major paperwork in the realm is inscribed on stone tablets
clay tablets wouldnt' work, they're reusable by wetting them
I am in a weird position with this character where I might adjust myself to have two of my caste attributes lower becuase they're not that important for my build right now and will be cheaper to buy up later
There's a term for this that I don't remember the name of it but it annoys me
bleak hazel
I just call it "XP arbitrage"
bleak hazel
If you spend too much essence all your paper gets fucking wet
if anyone else does it your paper catches on fire, gets coated in a thin layer of poison or gets blown away, I'm not sure they're really the worst pick here
earth might be the best pick but the shaking will ruin your handwriting
bleak hazel
Decisive Sidereal Victory
(until you try to use a Sidereal Martial Art other than Charcoal March and headbutt the cap over and over)
prisma sun
Like I do think Exalted does benefit from cool "I pop 10 charms in one turn" moments
but also it seems like the balance of the game suffers due to Alpha Striking Every Situation
fierce star
🤔 what if every splat had a different way to break the mote spending cap
bleak hazel
really this is only a problem with a) solaroids and b) particular grappling setups
fierce star
like, what if for solaroids that became the supernal thing, sidereals could do it for MAs once they've reach the form, DBs can do it while something something
prisma sun
Each Deeb around you raises your cap
chilly sluice
really this is only a problem with a) solaroids and b) particular grappling setu...
it feels like almost every grappling setup just Fucking Gets You once they successfully grab you
fierce star
Hmm. Two free charms left from chargen still. Do i get the first two from air dragon or do I get a couple crafting charms that can let me do in-session crafting At Speed. I guess the air dragon charms are more xp efficient. What do I even get from the first couple there?
bleak hazel
it feels like almost every grappling setup just Fucking Gets You once they succe...
they really do, unless they're going for tech other than Savaging
you can tell they realised this for Lunars because after core they stopped adding animal splats with hugely juiced savaging tech
the core ones were not intended to be used with a 22 dice pool
Sid grapple is more tech-oriented
fierce star
limited ignore of onslaught/similar penalties plus no ambush penalty on evasion (ugh I'm parry pased) and ignoring terrain penalties/walk on things you normally couldn't
prisma sun
Yeah like
Wondering
"You are capped at 5+Essence Motes per turn until you hit Bonfire"
fierce star
hmm. I gotta wonder if I really even want air dragon. It does a lto of stuff this character isn't particularly built for (dodging, stealth)
and, well, it's an immaculate style on a non-db
it's also the only other martial art that uses chakrams, though
bleak hazel
"You are capped at 5+Essence Motes per turn until you hit Bonfire"
you would have to delete the hearthstone that lets you bank anima, because that just becomes the Go Loud button from Demon: The Descent
I think it works, although it leads to some interesting charm breakpointing
and is a major buff to deebs (fine) and sids (possibly not fine) because they have excellencies they can afford while capped
fierce star
yeah the more I'm comparing charms back and forth th emore I think that air dragon doesn't really blend well with thousand wounds gear on a non-DB
(on a DB I think it'd be pretty good though, TWG doesn't seem terribly harsh on terrestrials)
prisma sun
how come Alchemicals don't count as Terrestial
cuz they seem pretty terrestial in nature
fierce star
how so?
dense verge
tbf the vibe i got from them was smaller scale than celestial until i got to reading
prisma sun
well instead of getting their power from the heavens they get their power from being robots
dense verge
nature abhors a vacuum. clearly this means deebs should now occupy that power niche
bleak hazel
although their excellency is quite small until they get higher essence
so they may still be lower end of Celestial until they get ramped up a bit
fierce star
yeah, I think I go with the craft charms, and I probably dont' need air dragon at any point.
bleak hazel
TPAA doesn't apply to their dice limit so they can only add 6 dice at E1
prisma sun
I'm not talking about power tier
fierce star
as in doesnt' increase it?
fierce star
the thing is the classification is a power tier
hmm, looks like TPAA doesn't increase dice limits, yeah
prisma sun
Then shouldn't a sufficently powerful Deeb be able to not be affected by Terrestial keywords
fierce star
the dots count towards pre-reqs and, wel,l rolls obviously
bleak hazel
yeah, for all intents and purposes calling them "celestial" means "you can mix them with creation's celestials" although with that excellency I would feel safer mixing them with Sids and Lunars
they're going to struggle keeping up with solaroids who have a way better excellency and solar bullshit
fierce star
Then shouldn't a sufficently powerful Deeb be able to not be affected by Terrest...
So back in ex2 that was effectively a thing they could do, yes
when the MAs were split across tiers, they could learn Enlightenment charms to let them learn celestial martial arts
bleak hazel
even now, if you learn an immaculate MA you can knock terrestrial off momentarily by spending aura
fierce star
and--yeah
bleak hazel
but yes, I would say that to put a deeb in an E1 celestial party you would need them to be a large deeb of higher essence (3-ish, probably - at that point they get their signature charms which are a big power spike)
they're still going to have less juice, especially as the XP starts coming in, but you can give them some social/merit advantages on top
prisma sun
Yeah I think that's how they recommend doing that
also playing up that Deebs are beloved by most of Creation
bleak hazel
somewhere between E2 and E3 most celestials will reach the point that no totally rules-as-written E5 deeb of similar optimisation will be able to throw down with them
but at E1-2 it can just about hold together
and of course you do get players who don't mind being on the weaker side in raw power terms
prisma sun
Yeah I will say deebs are like
Conceptually more interesting to me in scale than sklaroids
bleak hazel
I like the vibes of being an Abyssal dark lord in my doom tower, even if I do have to pick bits of solar out of the charmset
in most other ways I prefer a juice level around the point of medium sized deebs or smaller Side/Lunars, about where Alchs are
Deebs could use a little punching up, they do have a few charms that are basically worse than just using your Excellency, but, they're far from awful
the 3e iconic abyssals are less dark-lord-y than I expected
these are just some people
chilly sluice
the 3e iconic abyssals are less dark-lord-y than I expected
half of these don't seem like they'd escape the Resonance hit from not looking goth enough
bleak hazel
resonance is no longer a thing at least
I suppose Trappings of Death can be up to diff 5 to notice, but they still don't really scream "exalt!"
prisma sun
At least girlie in the middle looks like a mortal kombat character
chilly sluice
3 and 4 I will grant I think
prisma sun
I feel like guy on the left just needs better pants
chilly sluice
the gauntlets are vaguely sinister, but otherwise I don't feel much
number 2 has an evil-ish sword I guess?
bleak hazel
I feel 4 needs a bit more embellishment and it would work
2 I would accept as some random deeb
prisma sun
4 didn't have any artifact dots
chilly sluice
I feel 4 needs a bit more embellishment and it would work
the skull half mask is good, but could maybe use a bit more
5 does have the decoration on the jacket imitate a ribcage, so that's nice
prisma sun
Though I guess they wanted to show you don't have to be Sauron or an evil wizard
next delta
🤔 if there was a mote cap, how would people feel about solars ignoring/getting a much larger one (instead of Supernals). To capture that "early explosive power"?
prisma sun
I think that's the problem the mote cap is attempting to solve
Slowing the pace of fights and making it so things don't just have instant win combos
next delta
Essence tries to have a escalating power a bit by having anima levels have ever-more-powerful power unlocks as you get higher anima (as well as a more granular anima track, amusingly). I imagine hypothetically the Ex3 initiative track was supposed to do that too (that is, lead up to a more climatic conclusion), though obviously that part didn't work
bleak hazel
it works pretty well in my experience, it just doesn't quite stand up to abilities that skip large parts of it
if you don't take your turn in initiative order and you have enough damage boosters/double damage effects to kill people without needing significant amounts of initiative, you aren't really using the init track
which I think is also the problem with certain grapple setups - a lunar on 3 init picks you up in bear form and you turn into soup because they have so many ways to boost that
some changes to the savaging rules to make it less lethal and then a slight toning-down of soak stacking would fix most things that aren't issues with Solars or other corebook stats
(bears and the legendary size dinos, mostly, and luckily the lunar books already put out rebalanced versions of the latter)
very funny that Sids and only Sids are kind of tempted by Gunzosha Armour because for them, successes count as a single charm die rather than two
downside is that they hate heavy artifact armour, so there you go
the gold faction rocking up in silken armour versions like SC2 Ghost uniforms
next delta
Oh, can exalts use Gunzosha Armour? I thought it was mortal only
And do life-reducing things affect sids 🤔
bleak hazel
they can, and it doesn't halve their lifespan
bleak hazel
all the evocations are priced either in willpower or in your choice of motes/init so someone without a mote pool can use them
bleak hazel
Burn Life is a sid specialty, yeah
although it isn't much life
a few days per transformation sequence
also lets you take a martial arts form, which is nifty
prisma sun
I can't believe I find sids so cool despite them being the Mage parallels
bleak hazel
most gunzosha stuff isn't super useful for Exalts, but I could see picking up Sensory Augmentation Visor and Kinetic Armor Reinforcement
which is a nice-to-have damage reducer
limpid badge
All of the forum Sids are martial artists except I think Briar's
they gave me the punchjuice im gonna make a heavenly maiden of the drunken fist
she can do so much by giving the right guy a sip of the crazy good celestial wine
bleak hazel
kind of fascinated by the idea of light armour gunzosha now but I think you'd just make that first age silken armour (and then be sad because only solars and abyssals can make some)
tulip folio
kind of fascinated by the idea of light armour gunzosha now but I think you'd ju...
Literally a Sentai Outfit.
...how is Sid Archery? I know it's got Weird Shit but I don't know how well it does as a Real Combat Style.
bleak hazel
it has some fun moves, not sure how it is as a primary damage dealing device since I've never used it
definitely one of those "make five billion gambits" trees
tulip folio
The talk about Starcraft Ghost outfits as Silk Armour Gunzosha Armour 100% does has me pondering a Sid with a Dragon Sigh Wand. XD
prisma sun
Sid archery left my mind unfortunately
Sid thrown is just too funny
Especially since it means Drifts can do Boogie Woogie
The Ultimate sid solar team up
tulip folio
Hmm...do you think Secrets of Future Strife, Joy-In-Adversary Stance and Blade of the Battle Maiden fine for 'Basic starting charms' for someone doing VBOS? I could go all the way to form but I've got a lot of other stuff I want to do beyond just 'hitting people with a staff'.
Flight Of Mercury seemed the most 'I can likely skip this at chargen' of the VBOS pre-form charms.
obtuse heron
weird question but does anyone know any good tutorials or lets plays for exalted
i can’t seem to find any
bleak hazel
Hmm...do you think Secrets of Future Strife, Joy-In-Adversary Stance and Blade o...
probably fine, yes - the form is very good here, especially for JIA Stance because it halves the cost outright, but it's also kind of annoying to enter reflexively
so that's a perfectly adequate kit for a non-combat character
I might eventually go up to form just so it's there
wise ocean
Do duels usually last for multiple Decisive attacks?
It seems worth it to just spend the action to enter the form early for the discount alone
bleak hazel
they do if you're playing the Wound Penalty Style
tag 'em, get form, play very defensively so they don't crash you and trigger Initiative Shift before you can get more init, profit
I have seen some standout duels go 20+ rounds of back and forth, but the more people you add to a fight the faster it will end
the usual party vs opfor setup is like 3-4 rounds, maybe a bit longer if there are some beefy exalts on both sides
wise ocean
Makes sense. I haven't fought anybody yet Properly so I'm getting an idea of it.
bleak hazel
high soak on either side slows down the rate of init gain, so if both sides have proper Lunar soak monsters bashing at each other nothing happens
luckily, Jimmy Endings is here with his friend the RIghteous Devil to solve this quick sharp
my super-elder E5 Sidereal combat build is set up for mote attrition drag-out combat rather than burst, but that's because I was playing around trying to figure out how to solo a wyld hunt and he's not intended to play in a party
he's just Around as a whiteroom experiment
wise ocean
e5 exalted party has to be a wild experience
what do you do at that point, go storm yu'shan for a rager?
bleak hazel
historically yes, in 2e
less so these days
elders are no longer either super-mega-invincible or total pushovers, and yu-shan has a dozen or so of them
E5 solar fightman gets to have a standout duel with Anys Syn and probably win but it's definitely not guaranteed
tulip folio
The more books they print the more her power grows
bleak hazel
especially if the GM takes advantage of the fact that her character sheet is a shorthand and she actually knows Basically Every MA Charm
it helps that high essence exalted combat is not total xianxia nonsense and still bears some relation to two people hitting each other with swords
I like to imagine it as a 50/50 merge of Abstract Weapon and a really good stickman fight animation
wise ocean
You should post said animation, I think I know the one you're talking about but you never showed me it when you mentioned it last
bleak hazel
does this have any plot worthy of actually attaching dialogue to? no
is it technically quite impressive? yes
conveniently the Sidereal Battles Elder and the Solar Brawler are colour-coded
(unsure what they censored in the first place, other than perhaps some sniper-elite style x-ray impacts - it's a pretty standard Big Shonen Fight Scene)
the omnislash-dodge is an especially good perfect defence
the reason the setting has not been broken in half by all of the shonen fight scenes is that the median Exalt is more like one of the two Solars from Adversaries of the Righteous - local crimelord in too deep with their demon patron and nomad tribe culture-hero happy to sit on her patch and defend her people
neither are particularly optimised and neither are out to become the Wheel-Turning King, even if they fight to drive the Realm from their door or knock a kingdom or two over
yet, anyway
players are these strange freakish prodigies with wild goals, even by Silver Pact/Sidereal Faction standards