Exalted

[bleak escarp]

Yeah but like

You can't write rules for that guy, to be blunt.

[bleak hazel]

It's quite hard to find something you can't do with a specialty of broad-spectrum reality warping, to be fair

At the very least it should be at the end of its tree, and if no charm can have significant prerequisites they probably need to be gated pretty hard by essence levels

[tulip folio]

The intent had been 'Within the speciality given by their Roles, they are Very Powerful but the further you get from that Role, the worse they get'.

As their Excellency is gated/limited by that.

[bleak hazel]

How are you planning to handle the traditional "charm with a couple of upgrades" structure if the base charm isn't an Essence 1 deal?

[tulip folio]

What do you mean? I'm not sure I'd intended their base charms to not be essence 1.

[bleak hazel]

As in "this tree is three charms long, by the time I'm done with the low essence stuff I have zero space to expand anything E2/3"

[bleak escarp]

Like, for one thing even when the story of that guy was canon (which, to be clear, was deep in the rabbit hole of 2e when stuff was getting pretty silly), the guy who tricked Sol into letting his guard down was an Ishvara, not a Raksha. It was a whole high-essence transformation thing, their equivalent to the Incarna or Primordials. Balor or Prince Laashe are fundamentally singular beings, not examples of playable creatures.

[bleak hazel]

You may want to at least reach 5 charms so you can do a straight line to E5

[tulip folio]

I might go back to the drawing board.

Which is a pity, as I really liked how I had their Excellency set up.

Where it was both pretty good and also pretty bad.

[bleak escarp]

I mean... Look, I love Fair Folk myths, and I got into this game through Graceful Wicked Masques. Even though a great deal of the Eurofae trappings of the Raksha are a clumsy bodge job that they were never actually supposed to be, I still love 'em.

But they don't matter.

It is, in fact, part of the point of them that they don't matter, in the grand scheme of things.

Fundamentally, the story of the Wyld can be summed up as saying that The Wyld Doesn't Matter.

[tulip folio]

...okay, I'll scrap this project. I'm kinda convinced it can't work.

[bleak escarp]

The Wyld was introduced as a place the Titans bummed around in until they said, "this place sucks, nothing we do can matter here, let's build a world of permanence." Simply by dint of its existence, Creation defines all of the Wyld in relation to it. The Wyld is subordinate to Creation, because the game is about Creation, and by the same token the game is called Exalted, it is about the Exalted, and you introduce things more powerful than them at your peril, no matter the arena.

[bleak hazel]

I don't dislike the weirdness, I just think the tiny tiny trees are going to be a bit heavily restrictive

[tulip folio]

It's kinda funny, as this didn't even start as a Raksha thing.

[bleak hazel]

might want merely very small trees at 5-6

[tulip folio]

Oh, that's...not quite what I intended. Not 3 charms total. The intent was a max of 3 prereqs deep. So like, nothing has more than 3 prereq charms to reach it. As each tree has 8 total charms. 2 at 1, 2 at 2, 2 at 3, 1 at 4 and 1 at 5.

So like the 'Knight' tree has both 'Social Resilience' and 'Improving Parry/Defend Other'. With a charm for each of those at 1, 2 and 3 and one for defending others at 4 and one for social resiliance at 5.

Sorry, didn't communiate that well.

As each tree is a 'Role' the Raksha has taken on.

[bleak hazel]

OK, that's far more workable, it's a slight limit on your ability to do big fancy capstones because they're all relatively accessible but a lot more workable

3 charms vs 8 charms is the difference between a rounded martial arts style and a half finished 3 dot artifact

[tulip folio]

It sorta came out of well...to put cards on the table: This is me trying to salvage the things I liked mechanically from 2e Infernals.

[bleak escarp]

Oh, yeah, with you there.

Been there

Well

2e Infernals were never quite my thing tbh, but they were the shit for some of my buddies, I saw the effect they had

[bleak hazel]

There's a running trend of Solars and Abyssals having 1000 prereqs on high essence stuff because they have Supernal, so it's literally the only thing stopping them going completely wild, but everyone else probably doesn't need 11 charms before the "don't die when you are killed" E5 capstone

[tulip folio]

With their equivalent of picking a 'Caste' etc being picking 3 Roles. One at Trivial, one at Major and one at Defining. These are your caste but they're also Intimacies. Someone can manipulate you into doing things by playing on your 'Hey, you're a Knight. Shouldn't you intervene?'

[bleak hazel]

Sids have short trees and they still need 10, though - the really big charms might need to you to have both halves of the role's deal

[tulip folio]

And the Raksha going 'Shit, it's what my character would do'

Raksha Excellency
Raksha can add dice to an (Attribute + Ability) roll for one mote per die using a Role's Excellency. She may also use Excellencies to raise her static values — Evasion, Parry, Resolve, and Guile — paying two motes per +1 bonus. 

Normally, Raksha can’t add more than (Attribute) dice to a roll or raise a static value by more than (Attribute/2, rounded down). Automatic successes count as two dice toward this limit. However, a Raksha can increase her dice cap with stunts, adding the rating of a Role Intimacy to the dice limit (+2 for their Trivial Role, +3 for their Major Role or +4 for their Defining Role) as long as the stunt is described in a way that fits the Role. For example, the Perfect Knight with Dexterity 5 standing in defence of her Sworn Lady may invoke her Defining Role of 'Knight' to increase her limit for the Excellency to 9 (5 Dexterity + 4 for a Defining Intimacy)

With their Excellency getting Increasingly Less Powerful the less it's tied to the Character They've Crafted Themselves Into.

'Is this The Thing I Am Expressly About? No? Well, I guess I'm running on an excellency cap of (Stat)'

[bleak hazel]

This seems like an excellent excellency for a terrestrial, it's bigger than Deebs when they're being big and smaller than Deebs when they're not

[bleak escarp]

Mmm.

Honestly it seems significantly better than terrestrial.

[tulip folio]

But in exchange is a very broad excellency because it's formed from me hammering at 2e Infernal Excellency which was all about themes rather than stats.

The Knight is Protective and Loyal, solving things with Endurance and Honour. They deal Straightforwardly and Fairly, handing out Justice in an Even-handed way. The knight's strength to Fulfil Oaths comes from Faith and Iron Will.

[bleak escarp]

Actually it's arguably better than Solars.

[bleak hazel]

Nah, Celestials blow this out of the water

[tulip folio]

The Lunar Cap is 'Stat + Literally Any Other Stat I can Justify, Which Is Going To Be My Best' iirc?

So if a Lunar has a 5, it's going to be 'Stat + 5'

[bleak escarp]

It really doesn't.

[bleak hazel]

A solar is throwing +10 dice at two to four Deals right out of chargen and they're if anything the least flashy, Lunars just have a cooler version of this, Sids don't look that hot until you realise that they get effectively 40% more power for two entire motes and haven't even started on the dice limit yet

[tulip folio]

...I'll admit, the intent had been 'If they are directly using their Defining Role, it just falls short of the lunar one, with it falling further behind the more theny need to stretch their roles to align'

As they can't match a Lunar's 'Stat + 5' even with the Defining Role's Stat +4

[bleak escarp]

The issue is that functionally speaking, roleplaying limits like playing to a Role rarely turn out to be actually, you know, limits because it gets into how the player chooses what their character wants to do and the story is about them doing that stuff so, y'know. They're going to be getting that defining role bonus a lot, which means a majority of the time this is a 9-dice Excellency... that works for anything.

Which is the bigger issue, and something the Infernal excellencies used various tricks like forced repurchases to get around; having one excellency that can apply to anything is better than needing to buy multiple excellencies for different attributes or abilities or so on.

[bleak hazel]

Yeah, it is very broad as written, and unlike 2e you don't have to go buy your excellencies and their cooler versions, so you might want to specify a list of things they Definitely Can't Work On

That or you do Lunar things and say "this is a Vibes Excellency, it works on stats A + B"

[bleak escarp]

Lunar excellencies are broader due to being attribute-based, but they still, y'know, need to have an excellency that fits the base roll. You might be able to apply Intelligence to a melee attack by stunting about how your giant throbbing protean brain has worked out the exact angles and forces needed to snap this guy's knee, but you still can't do that with an intelligence excellency

[bleak hazel]

The big thing there though is that most of the time you only desperately care about your relative dice limit in combat, so you're just going to shove +9 on the best proxy for dex a lot, maybe int for crafting and sorcery

[bleak hazel]

To be fair there, I have seen plenty of very effective lunars who just wander around with nine excellencies, and the average is still about seven

[bleak escarp]

Well yeah, they get a bunch of free ones.

[bleak hazel]

Lunars just have a really good one

Everyone does, besides post chargen Deebs, but Lunars have basically omni-applicable +5 by design, that's just how they work in play

I don't think I've ever seen a 3e lunar go "wait, I can't actually excellency this"

[bleak escarp]

But this is why 2e infernals has that "Furthermore, a character can and must purchase each version of the Charm a number of times equal to her Essence rating as a Training effect when she first learns the Excellency or upon raising her Essence later." clause, even if a lot of players thought it was an unmitigated pain, and why the Excellency was a gate you had to buy to get any other charms of that Yozi. Because people understood that excellencies being based around flavour is strictly better than even attribute-based excellencies.

Players are pretty good at making that flavour always apply.

[tulip folio]

I think I might scrap this project and try something smaller (When messing about with this was me dodging attempting to design Evocations for my Alchs artifacts because they were giving me a headache.)

And just hope 3e Infernals have enough of 2e infernals in them to make me like them. XD

[bleak escarp]

That might be for the best, tbh. Take it as a learning experience abotu Exalted homebrew

[bleak hazel]

Yozi flavour excellencies were also extremely broad, to be fair

I could see a version of that that was one sentence of stuff it applies to and one sentence of stuff it definitely does not apply to that was considerably less juiced

funny as it was to stunt everything with I Brassed Greenily Down The Stairs

[tulip folio]

2e Excellency of She Who Lives In Her Name: I can use this literally any time I am the worst guy in the room because she's got as broad as 'Fascist-ly' in it.

Like it was actively one of her bolded 'This is my theme it applies to' words.

[bleak hazel]

Evocations seem much easier, you're not short of comparison points and those genuinely are really short trees

3 dots are nice and clean at 4-5 evocations, despite the long windy ones in AOTC

[tulip folio]

I mean, there isn't many non-combat evocations in the books right now for comparison.

[bleak hazel]

I believe there's the mace that has a city in it

[bleak escarp]

honestly dude if you want to bring back this kind of infernal flavour stuff like... exigents are right there and meant to be a build your own exalt type toolkit

[bleak hazel]

Deeb book has the blue ponderable orb, Sid book has lots of stuff sitting on the line (clash social influence, turn combat problems into noncombat problems)

[tulip folio]

Honestly, the evocations are much harder for me than imagining an entire charmset. As Evocations require narrowing down themes to a Very Specific Thing, vs 'Well, everything needs to get done eventually so go where the thoughts take you and focus down later'. XD

If that remotely makes sense?

I've got a general vibe for her artifacts but the specifics elude me when there's only a few slots.

[fierce star]

Well, reading that makes me wonder if I should go back to the drawing board with the idea that came to me in a dream for an excellency for the character/exalted type I'm pondering.

since the dice cap is, uh, weird

[fierce star]

Auroral Excellency
Aurorals gain an Excellency for every aspect and favored attribute they have, as well as any attribute they have at at least 3 dots. Aurorals can add dice to an (Attribute + Ability) roll for one mote per die using their Excellency. She may also use Excellencies to raise her static values--Evasion, Parry, Resolve, and Guilde--paying two motes per +1 bonus. Aurorals may spend a point of willpower to use their Excellencies on another character's behalf, as long as that character is within either Short range or visual range of the Auroral's Anima Banner, whichever is longer. When using their Excellencies in such a way, Aurorals use their own dice cap unless the target's would be larger, and may purchase automatic successes at one success per two motes.

Aurorals may add up to (Attribute+1) dice to rolls. Actions that uphold one of the Auroral's intimacies or exploit an opposing character's intimacies increase this limit by (Intimacy); when using their excellency on another character's dice roll, they may increase their dice cap by Anima if it would be higher than any applicable intimacy. Automatic successes count as two dice towards this limit, and static values may be raised by half this dice cap, rounded down.

(Dev note: Aurorals have access to Transcendent Anima like Sovereigns do)

[tulip folio]

Looks like a mix of the heart eater and sovereign excellency.

...which I suppose makes sense.

...silly pondering: It's kinda funny that they removed the big issue Walker in Darkness had in 2e for 3e, when 3e made it mechanically true.

He used to believe that castes were ironclad and that those in a caste would always be best in a given area if it related to that caste.

In 3e...they added supernals so that dawns would always be the Best Fighters as 2e didn't really stop other castes being just as good if not better than dawns.

So the edition where he'd be right, he stopped believing that people of a caste would just be Inherantly Better at those skills

[bleak hazel]

grumble grumble hate Dawns so much

[tulip folio]

My heretical (Well, likely not heretical but very sacred cow killing) stance is that that the Solaroid Caste skills need a shakeup.

[bleak hazel]

so can you use the Auroral excellency on a battlegroup?

because that's asking to double stack Command roll + big excellency and soupify people with mega archers

[tulip folio]

*Gestures to DBs and Sidereals *

Behold, people who didn't put Every Combat Skill in a single caste, even when they have a caste related to battles.

[bleak hazel]

3e dawns are actually all right on the caste skills because of the "pick 5 out of however many" setup, that was a good idea, it's their trees being utterly bonkers that I take offense with

[fierce star]

I figure not at first but with a war-based charm yes

Well not war based because attribute exalt but you get me

[bleak hazel]

mortals don't have dice caps, so that might get a little dodgy, but worth testing

what's with the Anima thing? feels like slightly unnecessary complications

[fierce star]

Based on Sovereign's Excellency, since they're half Aurorals and one big thing I'm doing is them getting transcendant anima

[tulip folio]

...well...okay, the GM worked out how the 'Go to the shadowlands/labyrinth' spell worked in Autobot City and I think it is now officially the Worst Option (In a very fun way)

-If it would send you to a shadowland, it takes you to the nearest blight zone.
-If if would send you to the Labyrinth, it sends you to the Elemental Pole of Smoke, Erlik or a Dead Metropolis.
-If you Fuck It Up when trying to get to the Labyrinth or you do something that would send you to the tombs of the Neverborn, it gets intercepted and it sends you to Nullspace, where you get to have a meeting with Autothon's Antivirus, the Viator.

[next delta]

Are the number of evocations for an artifact hard capped? I thought there was only a vibes-based cap and you could basically make a charmset for them lol

[bleak hazel]

that is effectively the case

no evocations for 2 dot, 10 for 3 dot, 15 for 4, no limit for 5 and N/A

if someone actually wrote and bought 25 evocations for their 3 dot daiklaive and 4 dot silken armour without an explicit plan to, say, replace the entire solar melee tree because they dislike it I would think they were insane, my usual is like 3-6 tops

[fierce star]

My most recent large-number-of-evocations artifact has like. Ten. Usually i've got 3 to 8.

[bleak hazel]

my current Sidereal's sword has precisely one because I don't really want to spend my XP on it anyway so I just never bothered writing more than the one you get for attuning it

five is a nice round number if you actually want an entire artifact out of the box, though

[fierce star]

I just really like artifact design in ex3, but even I have limits to how much I'm willing to homebrew lol

[bleak hazel]

you can get away with something like the Abnegation Sabres where you just go "these are for disarming, let me write five things that work off Disarming"

or you can get weird with it

I still think the average cap on artifact juice levels is a bit high, it's kind of funny to look at a 5-dot and go "wait, this would basically be an entire starting character's worth of XP" but the basic design is fine

[fierce star]

5 dots are great for either 'this is what the campaign is centered around' (Have a five-dot airship like that) or 'Hey, GM, how much rope do you want? Please, take all of it. No, more. More rope. Mooooore!'

[bleak hazel]

yeah, I calibrated my Abyssal Crafter to be able to do 5-dots at campaign start mostly because I wanted to make Greater Manses

[wise ocean]

I am planning to hand Misc an increasingly greater amount of rope as the dots on the Definitely Not Cursed Gun increase

It's good fun

[bleak hazel]

my 5 dot super mega artifact weapon will have to wait until I have more time to homebrew, since my exalted brain cells are being spent on prepping Deebgame

dots don't change, you just get more evocations

[tulip folio]

Meanwhile I stare at my armour going 'Man, I have Vibes but not really Solid Plans as my mind goes a dozen directions at once'. XD

[bleak hazel]

what a 5-dot is good for from the perspective of Me, Craft Gremlin, is cooking one very particular artifact that does one really powerful thing without having to write an entire tree of prereqs

because if you look at something like Volcano Cutter it can slam for a huge amount of damage with the first one to three evocations out of the box

so if I want to, say, make a giant evil soulsteel needle I can use to capture enemy Exalts, I can just make it do that

[tulip folio]

Innocent Oblivion
Soulsteel Buff Jacket (4 Star)

When Erlik became the Apostate Metropolis, they did not do so alone. The lifeblood and internal health of the city, its leaders, were some of the first to be corrupted. It was the Lector-Preachers that preached bleak words of private pleasure over public good and the Plutarchs who hid the signs of apostasy, sure they would be rewarded with place of renown in the coming world.

Instead, the roaches were the first to be led to the slaughter, their souls flayed from their bodies even as they spoke of the greatness before them. These souls were fashioned into spikes and knives with which to continue their abuse of the people they had sworn to serve.

Innocent Oblivion is soulsteel woven so fine as to be thread and sown into Hanfu reminiscent of of an official or priest. Each thread is the life of an innocent of Erlik, cut short by the soulsteel that was once their Olgatory and Theomachracy. They give off a sense of lost innocence and the duty of those who served, unaware they had already been betrayed.

[fierce star]

I am looking forward to futzing about with craft in the Alchemicals game I'm in, especially since I won't have to jump through a dozen hoops just to interact with the system at base between autochthonian artifice being easier to access than first age by quite a bit and the GM's Craft skill houserule

[tulip folio]

With the general vibe inspired by:

But working out mechanics for 'Innocence and Duty, Tainted By Betrayal' is tricky as I have several ideas but not a single coherant direction. 😛

[wise ocean]

it's alright, I'm ripping all of my artifact plans either out of Infinity Blade or Der Freischütz

[bleak hazel]

(Volcano Cutter also only has 5 evocations, so they can ramp up pretty quickly)

[tulip folio]

Beyond 'A non-cynical, more genuine torn lotus defence would likely fit the vibes pretty well'

[bleak hazel]

first stop is to make myself some awesome soulsteel robes, second stop is to make myself the 5-dot kill needle of supreme destiny

Soulsteel and White Jade, probably

I really like the artifacts in the Abyssal book

biomechanical skeleton crossbow

[fierce star]

Biomechanical Skeleton Crossbow is my next meme death metal band album name

[wise ocean]

Eager Atrocity Mechanism also a good garage band pull

[tulip folio]

It's likely bad form to just Steal A Charm for an evocation though. XD

[chilly sluice]

not really tbh

the artifact and Exigent books both say you should just steal liberally for the stuff you need

[fierce star]

good artist/great artist and all that

Half the evocations for my big five dot artifact are, uh

[chilly sluice]

if there is a charm that's already close to what you want, no shame in taking that and tweaking it a bit

[fierce star]

generic order of operations modifiers

[tulip folio]

As I was pondering Torn Lotus Defence, stripped of the 'this only applies because it's a martial art' stuff and swapped from Manipualtion to Charisma, as genuine innocence, not crocodile tears sneakiness.

[fierce star]

sounds perfect to me

you know what you want, there's something with the mechanics already in place, swap it a bit to better fit theme and boom

[bleak hazel]

yeah, one of the draft evocations for the death needle (which really needs a better name) is me shamelessly ripping off Ebon Shadow's Throat-Slitting Shadow Atemi

[tulip folio]

Souls of the Faultless
Cost: 5m; Mins: Essence 1
Type: Reflexive
Keywords: Counterattack, Uniform
Duration: Instant
Prerequisite Charms: None
The souls trapped within Innocent Oblivion cry out, attempting to shield the wearer from harm.

Whenever the wearer successfully defends against an attack, she may use Souls of the Faultless to make a counterattack with (Charisma + Presence) to instill her attacker with a positive tie towards herself or a negative tie towards themselves, adding a number of dice equal to the attacker’s Essence (maximum five). The context of the Tie, be it self-loathing, sympathy or even unexpected love, depends on the circumstances of the situation and may be chosen by the attacking character’s player. If the attacker already has a positive Tie towards the wearer or negative tie towards themselves, this influence roll is also treated as a special withering counterattack that deals (Charisma) points of unsoakable Initiative damage, as the attacker's heart is shredded by the gentle soul's cry.

This charm may also be used when failing to defend against an attack, if the wearer has taken no hostile actions this combat, outside of Souls of the Faultless.

Doesn't get the Mastery effect or the 'when in form' bonus but gets to make people hate themselves, not just love you.

And a boost if you're trying to Not Be Part Of The Fight

[fierce star]

mmm delicious self loathing

[tulip folio]

...you know there's effects that boost spell casting bit are there any charms that boost counterspelling and distorting?

[fierce star]

Iii... don't BELIEVE so?

[chilly sluice]

I feel like I vaguely remember something that helped with that, but can't recall

[bleak hazel]

Prismatic Arrangement of Creation Style has Spell-Shattering Palm and Astrology Interruption Method, but I would recommend not stealing from E3/4 Sidereal Martial Arts to make a basic artifact

the power calibrations on those are a tiny bit different

an outright "roll better to distort magic" would be fine, though

[tulip folio]

I was pondering a permanent that makes you count as knowing all spells for the purpose of counterspelling.

As you get half effect if you don't know the spell you're killing

So you never get the 'I have no clue what I'm doing' penalty.

Faith Betrayed
Mins: Essence 1
Type: Permanent
Keywords: None
Duration: Permanent
Prerequisite Charms: Souls of the Faultless

The wearer is considered to know all spells for the sake of Countermagic and Distortion. If the Bearer already knows the spell, they instead gain a non-charm success on Countermagic and Distortion against it.

Successfully breaking a spell with Countermagic or Distorting it allows for Souls of the Faultless to be used against the caster as if the wearer had defended against an attack.

[bleak hazel]

on one hand, literally doubling your effectiveness at [thing] is an absurdly strong permanent, on the other hand countermagic is kind of niche

I think this should maybe be a bit higher up, E3 maybe

[tulip folio]

I suppose? I'll admit I saw it less as 'double effectiveness' and more 'doing action without penalty'.

[bleak hazel]

given how many spells there are you usually don't end up doing known-spell countermagic at all

Distortion is more common, though

I would maybe bump this up to E2 and remove the non-charm stuff

[tulip folio]

Hmm...I might go with a different charm idea. As with how situational 'countermagic' is, it might not be worth picking up.

[bleak hazel]

distortion covers most of your needs, and evening out that penalty is way less swingy

I think it's a fine thing to have, but I'd stay away from non-charm successes on opposed combat rolls at E1

[tulip folio]

Back to the drawing board then.

As this was designed to be a bit of a 'small filler' E1 charm before the E2/3 stuff 😛

[bleak hazel]

removing the penalty on distortion and +1 NCS on counterspell probably does it

[fierce star]

What if it was a charm success?

[bleak hazel]

that would be neater, yeah

[fierce star]

Hmm. how many charms do you feel like need to be present in an attribute-based charm tree for it to feel 'complete' for an exalt? (Celestial tier, if it matters) Suppose I could compare lunars and alchemicals and see what it adds up too, though alchemicals are probably on the lower end due to the way charm slots/submodules work.

[next delta]

Oh, huh. Exigents has "essence-based" exalted as a design type (charms aren't tied to attributes or abilities, but are instead split into thematic categories and are gated by just essence levels and prereqs). I wonder if any of the "mainline" Exalted will use this for their charm sets

[tulip folio]

Not now that Infernals are Green Solars XD

[fierce star]

RIP lol

[next delta]

It's possible the captured primordials warped the solar exaltations more than the dead ones did. But probably unlikely, yeah

Hmm, only three "mainline" splats left. But Getimians are supposed to be a "minor" release right? Is the same true for Liminals?

[fierce star]

I think minor basically means 'main book, not an extra companion book'?

[next delta]

Ohhh. Ok. Does that mean yes or no to a kickstarter?

[fierce star]

I do not know!

[next delta]

Oh, Infernals are on the "being worked on" list

[fierce star]

... shiiit I was gonna use the charm cascades to count lunar charms but they have archetype charms mixed into the attributes they can be archetype'd into

now I have to do appearance and charisma ove ragain lol

[next delta]

I count 197 (14-28 per attribute) for the Architect attribute-based Exigent

[fierce star]

👍 thank you! That saves me a time

[next delta]

(the protip is to use the index instead of going through the charm list, ha)

[fierce star]

lol

I find myself losing my place too easily using the index, stuff blurring together for me

[next delta]

Roughly looking at Alchemicals, this is probably on the smaller side of things

[fierce star]

the charm cascades are easier for me to not lose my place on

just with what I have from luanrs, yeah

Appearance alone has 76 charms

[bleak hazel]

I never got on with building Lunars because whenever I started reading their trees my eyes started glazing over from all the broadly-similar charms in a giant block

Alchs are much easier because they come in neat little subtrees

[fierce star]

Lunars are my favorite exalt in theory, and mechanically I do really enjoy them in ex3

it's too bad I was one of the like, eigh tpeople in the exalted fandom who liked the thousand rivers stream project

(I also just generally feel that ex3 focuses too much on 'Lunars in modern creation exist solely to fight the Realm militarily in revenge for the deaths of the Solars in the Usurpation' because that means every lunar campaign has to be a military campaign by the reading of the text and it makes the solars the main characters of a lunar campaign by default which has always been a problem when subtextual it didn't need to be made ACTUAL TEXT, additionally the caul failed to hook me)

[bleak hazel]

they are very neat in 3e, although I prefer Siddies

currently in a 2 Sidereal/3 Lunar campaign and a lot of it has been my Chosen of Endings listening to extremely long speeches about what the Lunars intend to do with their new fiefdom and going "look, I like that you're enthusiastic but there are two Abyssals currently bearing down on us, could we stop plotting against the Realm for one second."

[fierce star]

That is my entire complaint with what a 'generic' Lunar campaign is supposed to be by the book honestly

Like... if you're silver pact, you're fighting the realm (slash lookshy and prasad) and heaven

and... what else? What's the end goal? And I get that is part of the point, the book even points that out

tha thte Pact has no end goal and no idea what they're going to do when the war is over and every DB has been put to the claw

but it makes them boring to me

[bleak hazel]

he's not even Bronze Faction, he's studiously independent other than being a work friend of Lytek, but the Lunars are getting on his nerves

luckily his Bronze Faction colleague is also getting on his nerves so they have hit a beautiful equilibrium of annoyance to the point he grabbed the most fighty and least political Lunar and went "look, they're busy, there's Fae over there causing problems, let us go and solve at least something while we wait"

[bleak hazel]

the other campaign I'm prepping for is Abyssals and Lunars running threshold states, and I'm interested to see what the Lunars get up to beyond being very pretty heads of state

the Abyssals all have much clearer deals, my guy wants to build a base for an underworld merchant empire to rival the Guild and the other gal is leading her merc company on a quest to go full Errant and redeem herself kinda sorta

[fierce star]

It honestly says something that despite Lunars being my favorite type of Exalted, I've gotten more character and campaign ideas reading Exigents, Dragonblooded, Alchemicals, Sidereals, and Abyssals (in that order) than Lunars

[bleak hazel]

but the people playing the Lunars are cool so I'm sure they'll have some stuff going on

[fierce star]

Admittedly that does sound liek a cool campaign, I hope the Lunars have fun ideas!

[bleak hazel]

currently Sids are by far my favourite, then Deebs, then Abyssals, then Alchs

well, Abyssals and Alchs are a tie style-wise but you can do fun mixed party things with Abyssals more easily because they're not stuck in robotland

if I wasn't running a deeb game I'd run an Alch/Sid heavenly robocop game and do some yu-shan antics

[fierce star]

The Alchemicals book actually specifically states that there's caches of buried Divine REbellion alchemicals scattered around creation with their own little self-sustaining pocket Vats

[bleak hazel]

yeah, that would be the general pitch

[fierce star]

which is hoenstly more than previous editions did

like, it was implied, but it's nice to be outright stated

and not have to do a Grasshopper Diplomacy/Locust Crusade game to have alchs inc reation

[bleak hazel]

"Sids dug you up, we need to get Heaven in order and you seem friendly, get in here"

[fierce star]

Nice

[bleak hazel]

Lunars never really grabbed me for anything other than a few mechanical ideas for cool combos I'd like to try, their aesthetics are just kind of lost on me

their war charms are pretty cool though, I could see myself making one if I specifically had to make a war specialist

one thing that has been kind of funny is that becuase there are so few sids, my games with Sids in keep accidentally getting to the point where something like 50% of all Chosens of Whatever are all in the same area of creation

I still think there should maybe be like 200 sidereals, just so there are more than 20 circles' worth at any given time, some of which are rogue or uncooperative in general

[fierce star]

Also to share my findings: Lunars have 734 charms across MFS and FatG, between 70 (for stamina) and 105 (dexterity) per attribute (with 13 universal charms)

Also yeah, I keep forgetting 'Fivescore Fellowship' is literal sometimes.

I think that name might be the only reason they didn't increase the number of sidereals like they did lunars

[bleak hazel]

it's also the Fivefold Fellowship sometimes

personally I would have just standardised on that

[fierce star]

legit

[tulip folio]

'I'm sorry, your attempt to create an NPC has failed: Insufficient sidereal exaltations remaining'

[bleak hazel]

I would not be surprised if a sufficiently long term campaign had actually reached that point at some stage

Sids also tend to live rather longer than most of the other Exalt types even with their generally dangerous jobs, so I like to imagine that a couple of times an individual Sid has ran into a Lunar and gone "I swear I know you" before realizing that this is their old acquaintance's reincarnation's reincarnation's reincarnation

[dense verge]

lunars i like for their infighting, weird side kingdoms and such

[bleak hazel]

the infighting is very good

[fierce star]

Hmm. I feel like I am unlikely to make almost 750 charms for a weird shitty homebrew project.

[bleak hazel]

"wait, this is 400 celestial exalts, why hasn't their side gotten more done?"
"well, first up...."

(second up is that there are many thousands of dragons, they aren't stupid and they throw very large hands when they have to)

[fierce star]

Lunars are just the leftists of Creation. The only thing they hate more than dragonblooded are other lunars.

Ask four lunars what the silver pact's political stance is and you'll get eight answers from six faces.

[bleak hazel]

Damned Lunars they ruined Lunars/Damned Sids they ruined Sids/Damned Deebs they ruined Deebs are the three most influential political positions in creation, I think

the Solaroids are still a bit too all over the place to start killing each other, at least so far

[fierce star]

But I bet you back in the First Age...

[tulip folio]

I feel like Sids manage to avoid that 90% because they know all the other sids well enough that it's 'Bob from Celestial Accounting Fucked This Up'

[fierce star]

"Damn Exalted! They ruined Exalted!"

[bleak hazel]

yeah, there is one Sidereal who killed another Sidereal over politics and it's her defining deal

and also a big black mark on her

[fierce star]

Isn't it two?

The Getimian-leading dude?

[bleak hazel]

oh yeah, and Rakan

but he's outside Sidereal social norms in a very large number of ways

(also another reason there should be twice the number of Sids, the two of them are a very significant minority by themselves)

[tulip folio]

'There are nearly as many sids who have betrayed heaven and raised a private anti-fate army as there are red-haired sids'

[fierce star]

*Naturally red-headed sids

I feel like a lot of sids dye their hair matching colors to their maiden as a political statement

[bleak hazel]

I believe the Exigent book recommends you either just make the charms your specific character intends to use or to keep the trees nice and short if it's a full project

[fierce star]

I have nothing textual to point towards this

[bleak hazel]

so like 15 charms per attribute and then go from there

[fierce star]

yeah I'm going insane and making this a full project lol

[bleak hazel]

.....I wonder how many charms the Sidereals have

probably not as many

[fierce star]

speaking of anyone want to sanity check me on some chargen rules for The Exalted About Being Pretty (TM)?

[bleak hazel]

I cannot be bothered to count them all but I am calling Dodge a representative tree at 18 charms and that suggests 400-500 + sidereal martial arts as another 60 or so

you know that's closer than I thought

considering they don't have a companion book and the companion book doesn't seem like it'll have any more charms in it

[bleak hazel]

sure, although first I have to go make a cheese toastie

[fierce star]

Making a cheese toastie is perhaps one of the most holy acts a human can perform, so that is understandable

Short version: Attribute-based Aspect using Exalts, with 5 aspects. Each aspect has three aspect attributes (one physical, one manip/charisma, one mental), plus appearance and one favored aspect of their choice. Every one of them has Appearance 3 for free and can't take Hideous. I'm not sure if I should reduce the number of dots they get for attributes or not? Maybe go with the terrestrial 8/6/4 split instead of the celestial 9/7/5. Does still put them up one over a 9/7/5 exalt.

[tulip folio]

I'd likely not drop them in stats as that means if your weak array isn't social, it will be really weak.

[bleak hazel]

I feel you might struggle to come up with a suitably diverse set of 5 aspects under those restrictions

there are enough combinations there, sure, but you're going to get a lot of "Dex + the other stuff" aspects and less of the rest

[fierce star]

Well, here's what I have so far:

                     | Physical  | Social       | Mental       |
Action/Orientalis    | Strength  | Charisma     | Wits         |
Word/Borealis        | Stamina   | Manipulation | Perception   |
Craft/Australis      | Dexterity | Manipulation | Intelligence |
Ideals/Centralis     | Stamina   | Charisma     | Perception   |
Madness/Occidentalis | Dexterity | Charisma     | Intelligence |

With consideration of swapping the mental attributes for Orientalis and Centralis so that the first one doesn't share both 'this only shows up once' attributes

[next delta]

You can probably get away with the <200 that Architects have (or even less) to start with. You can always expand it to cover more character concepts later as you get the desire to do so

(though that still sounds like a lot lmao)

[bleak hazel]

I feel like this is screaming to be either one kind of exalt that gets Appearance + 2 favoured or five kinds of Exalt that get Appearance + 2 Caste/1 favoured depending on vibes and power

[fierce star]

Yeah. And I'm actually not going to do any Universal charms--those are going to be folded into Appearance, for the reasons stated

Hmm

App + 2 caste/1 favored probably works. Id o have ideas for each of their aspects and aspect powers, though I need to workshop the specific, like, rules for them. I could do 'no aspects, just them' like heart-eaters, but I kinda have this idea in my head that part of waht broke for Aurorals when they were inverted were their aspects; I've sort of thought, though obviously it's not stated anywhere in canon, that I'd put that auroras quit being seen anywhere that wasn't the north after the divine revolution, and there only becuase it's where Aurora is buried.

[bleak hazel]

also do you ever expect one of these guys to not be rolling around with Appearance 5 or is that just standard

[next delta]

Oh, exigents has a chart for a recommend number of charms:

Is there a reason you want them to be attribute based?

[fierce star]

My initial writeup had the ex2 abyssals 'appearance goes up as your essence does' rule with XP deb tif you weren't already app 4 or 5 at ess 4 or 5

so... yeah kinda expecting App 5. A lot of aurora's wordcount is dedicated to how pretty he was, so it felt right to me that his chosen would be the same.

ASOM: Partially due to how their excellency works (they can use it on other people), partially because I felt like celestial-tier, attribute-based, aspect-using was a neat combo thematically

[prisma sun]

120 charrms lmao

[next delta]

A thought is to have them be skill based and then have a variety of different skills to have abilities that affect appearance or similar. Like, different facets of being "pretty"

[next delta]

Just for Essence 1 lol

[bleak hazel]

....I just had an annoyingly fun idea for an evocation but it would be really fiddly to track

fuck it I'll wriite it anyway

[next delta]

You could also possibly do this for attributes instead?

[bleak hazel]

Cost: 5m, 1wp
Mins: Essence 2
Type: Reflexive
Keywords: Dual, Resonant
Duration: One Scene
Prerequisite Charms: None

The wearer of [artifact] may use this Evocation when they are struck by a Withering or Decisive attack to choose an intimacy relevant to their attacker, gaining (Intimacy) Soak or Hardness against the attack. For the remainder of the scene, the wearer may repeat this process whenever they are hit by an attack at no cost, but may not select the same Intimacy more than once.

Hardness from this Evocation stacks with that provided by [artifact] but not with Hardness from other sources.

Resonant: The wearer may select negative intimacies for this Evocation even if they are not relevant to their attacker.```

"I hate you this way and this way and this way and that way"

soulsteel silken armour

[fierce star]

lol

[next delta]

Is the repetition supposed to be free?

Oh whoops, yes

[fierce star]

Spite is a powerful motivator

[bleak hazel]

I think this is sufficiently evocative to build a set of silken armour around

might need to refine it a bit, this is just a vibes draft

you are allowed to use your love for your attacker to remain upright but given it's soulsteel that was not the intended use case

[tulip folio]

This + black claw putting more intimacies on the attacker.

[fierce star]

is there any combination better than petty abyssals and black claw?

[bleak hazel]

you can't use their intimacies towards you

only your spite drives you

but yes, entirely the intended combo

this would be for my Bureaucracy Supernal craft abyssal who is steadily learning White Veil style

[prisma sun]

I need to think more about Charcoal Spider Style Artifact

[next delta]

Character who keeps getting into very deadly lovers quarrels going through all the ways they love the person in order to not be murdered

[bleak hazel]

my mental image is a Solar using Invincible Fury of the Dawn to throw a hail of punches at Crimson and the Abyssal just ignoring each of them until the last shot finally lands right on the jaw and produces the most lovely, genuinely pleasant smile

"That's the spirit!"

[tulip folio]

...funny counter to this is the Alchemical 'All negative intimacies that include me but are not directly about me are reduced by one level'.

'I hate the living'
'Even me?'
'Well okay, not yo-' jaw broken

[bleak hazel]

honestly I might make it include negative intimacies regardless of what they're about, since a lot of Abyssal stuff is like that

I will not die until I have ran out of hate

[bleak hazel]

but yes, this would be awesome

I love the intimacy system

you can do so many super fun things with it

[tulip folio]

...silly pondering.

How would you price an 'invert wound penalties' charm but only for social actions? So like, you're still weak and hurt but you're able to leverage that to be extra convincing.

[bleak hazel]

hang on. let me look for a charm I know exists somewhere

so ignoring the repurchases because they're stupid and nobody is going to burn 8xp on either of those, this would suggest that it would be quite cheap

[fierce star]

(god I hate the core book's obsession with 'natural language' for charm rules)

[bleak hazel]

call it 3 motes if the inverted penalty shows up as Charm dice, because it's solid (between a +2 and +8 bonus to whatever you're doing, half of it non-charm because it's penalty negation) but most of your social stuff isn't going to involve you being injured

maybe 4 motes if it's an evocation, they tend to be a little conservative

[dense verge]

i think core book was paid by the word

[tulip folio]

True, the big thing is that it's a follow up to this:

Which is a 'social in combat' thing

So it's a time when both 'Social' and 'Wound Penalties' are likely to overlap.

[bleak hazel]

well, good use case

since you're in combat you'll likely be low on juice

3 motes

[tulip folio]

Yeah, less intended for 'I need to go to the political summit, punch me!'

[bleak hazel]

3 motes in a social scene is rather less valuable than 3 motes when you've been fighting a guy for six rounds and you're both running on dregs + 5 mote/round regen

one of my funny Sidereal builds is the nuclear-powered Siddy, he exists to be as mote efficient as humanly possible

[tulip folio]

Energizer Bunny Sid

[bleak hazel]

his excellencies are free, his armour is solid and he regens motes when he yells at you, which he does frequently

[fierce star]

Oh no he's a shift manager at a fast food restaurant

[bleak hazel]

I don't think it's an actually good combat build because it commits so much juice to scenelongs in order to produce said exceptional efficiency as the fight goes on, but it's funny

(this actually only procs when he uses his reflexive-aim charm, but it reliably gets him two of the three motes he spends on it back because when he does that he rolls 22 dice for 3m 1i)

it's probably a good thing that I need to go down to Silken Armour only to get the charm that allows you to do a slightly shabby imitation of old Infinite Ability Mastery, if this guy had more than about 12 soak he'd be very annoying to fight unless you nuked him immediately

[tulip folio]

Spilling Scarlet Truths
Cost: 3m
Mins: Essence 1
Type: Supplemental
Keywords: Counterattack, Uniform
Duration: Instant
Prerequisite Charms: Souls of the Faultless
Betrayals of loved ones cuts deep, a double edged blade that shakes both the victim and the betrayer.

The wearer inverts wound penalties to influence rolls, her resolve and attacks granted by Innocent Oblivion for one tick. This bonus from wound penalties is considered charm-based.

'Attacks granted by innocent oblivion' is basicly just the prereq which is an attack that uses social stats rather than technically an influence roll. XD

I also hope the name makes sense?

[bleak hazel]

yeah, I like it

the "one tick" thing is a bit odd

is that meant to actually do anything in particular, or could it just be an instant?

[tulip folio]

Honestly just stealing wording from the example charm you gave me. XD

[bleak hazel]

unless you really intend to get three or four particular charms to reflexively make three or four social rolls on one use of this charm

oh yeah I suppose it does do that

goddamn core book

"one tick" is such a strange unit to use for social charms

because for some reason that means "one talk per use, unless in combat, where suddenly you have access to all these reflexive influence actions"

[tulip folio]

Gish gallop
The solar unleashes Manipulation +1 Influence rolls...

😛

[bleak hazel]

this is almost certainly not an actual problem, I'm just griping

I would just make it reflexive instant, though

[tulip folio]

I can think of one time it would matter.

[bleak hazel]

cleaner in general

[tulip folio]

Yeah, that's fair.

...and I just remmebered 2e having Mental Parry and Mental Dodge.

I am so glad they are gone

[bleak hazel]

what, you don't conduct a perfect parry-riposte on your family members when they try to convince you to take the bins out?

[tulip folio]

...though they do inspire a very silly 'not going to actually do but would be funny' Fae charm.

[bleak hazel]

actually Sids still have that but only in the form of Duck Fate

which is now "apply your Evasion to basically anything" rather than a perfect

the stated examples are social influence, debts, performance reviews and your own feelings

[tulip folio]

Dreamlike Argument
Cost: 3m; Mins: Appearance 2, Essence 1
Type: Supplemental
Keywords: Internal
Duration: Instant

The Raksha doubles 9s on a persuade roll to convince others to act on their dreams or hopes. Her targets they can’t use Intimacies based on common sense or logic to bolster their Resolve against her influence or resist it in a Decision Point.

😛

(Not a serious charm)

[bleak hazel]

well, it kind of works

I could see a charm that removed the penalty for making an argument that made no internal sense

[tulip folio]

Yeah, as you do suffer a penalty based on 'that's implausible' when bullshitting people.

[bleak hazel]

actually it would negate one Sidereal charm

"well-schooled pedant defence"

[tulip folio]

Honestly, it would be really mean to Alchs.

As the higher your clarity, the more it degrades any intimacy not based on logic

[bleak hazel]

WSPD is really good now I think about it

I kind of glossed over that before but that really is "press button, receive defining" if it relates to Your Deal

[tulip folio]

So a high clarity alch when asked to point to an intimacy that's not based on logic would go 'Shit, I don't have one'

[bleak hazel]

E3 social charm very big as usual

[tulip folio]

'As you can see, I have a lore background based on teaching at the heptogram and I notice you mispelt demon. Argument invalid'

[bleak hazel]

Sid Lore is super fun

it includes Avoiding-The-Truth Technique, which is simply "say whatever the fuck you want, everyone becomes absolutely sure you were lying"

[tulip folio]

That one is great.

...actually...if I ever did go back to Raksha, I could see 3e's 'Introduce a Fact' being something they're pretty solid at going 'Eh, that part of the story wasn't actively defined so I kinda Made It Useful'.

As it's playing in the blank spaces

[bleak hazel]

Sids also have the funniest gaslighting charm

[tulip folio]

No one should ever allow Sids near the internet.

[bleak hazel]

"any penalties she suffers for making implausible claims are doubled"

this may be bullshit but my god it has to be plausible bullshit

[tulip folio]

I do love that it's the 'no, that was a weather balloon' charm.

[bleak hazel]

not sure which one you mean there

[tulip folio]

This one

Where you go 'no, I have a more plausible alternative'

[bleak hazel]

oh, yeah

[tulip folio]

And everyone goes 'yeah, that makes sense'

[bleak hazel]

you can repurchase it to use it on your own lore backgrounds instead of stuff people say

"the history books say X, but I believe..."

Essence 4 conspiracy theory powers

[tulip folio]

Everyone talks about exalts fighting each other but I wanna see a Sid Prank War.

[bleak hazel]

they're really good at that

[tulip folio]

'So everyone now thinks your office is in this outhouse'

[bleak hazel]

even if they go beyond the obvious path of "follow the more choppy lunar or solar around until you can put a big prophecy on them, then go fight" they have many gremlin tricks to play

personally I like the idea of promoting your enemies' pets to godhood

[tulip folio]

'Sorry, your cat has to go file taxes'

I do really hope we get some heavier armour martial arts/some SMA that use armour.

As I'd love for Armoured Sids to not go 'Shit, I kinda got good at martial arts, the things I'm about and now I need to stop using armour to progress'

[bleak hazel]

yeah I'm hoping the sword one will involve armour

[tulip folio]

I am pondering if with the paths if I ever recreate the sid I made in 2e if I should make her not endings but she was very big on their beuro charms so she's likely still good there.

[tulip folio]

She was very 'To catch a thief, use a thief' in that she was the absolute queen of working out ways to be corrupt and it made her very good at finding corruption.

[bleak hazel]

Sid swordsmen with that one lore charm

[tulip folio]

...and now I'm imagining a Gold Faction sid who goes about going 'Solar Anathema? Come on, what's the odds of that? It was clearly just a dragonblooded with particularly yellow flames'

[bleak hazel]

look

sun is big fire

therefore sun boys = big fire deebs

obvious

[tulip folio]

Honestly, it likely wouldn't even get that much of an implausibility penalty unless the solar did something real fucking weird.

[wise ocean]

How much this is solar magic can you get away with as a fire DB

[tulip folio]

As 'glowy superhuman guy' often covers a lot of exalts

[wise ocean]

I'm thinking of something like all the schools of pyromancy in Soulsborne

[tulip folio]

If you are a Golden Jannisary Fire DB, you can likely get very 'Are you sure he's not a solar?'

As you use Holy Sun Flames to immolate the enemies of the UCS with holy light

[bleak hazel]

so "worshipping the Sun" is a common mild heresy of the Immaculate faith

[spring lynx]

actually, the fact that the surrounding landscape didn't get set on fire would probably be a pretty big giveaway

[bleak hazel]

because clearly that's Hesiesh the fire dragon, right

big ball of fire in the sky

[tulip folio]

Well, there's a good solution there. Arson!

[spring lynx]

i don't think the immaculate texts claim that

[bleak hazel]

no, they don't

which is why it's a heresy

but it is the kind of thing that random local variants end up doing occasionally

[spring lynx]

oh, wait, i missed a few messages there

[bleak hazel]

even when not nudged a bit by the local sun man

[fierce star]

Is the sun of the dragons or from the dragons though

[bleak hazel]

the main Faith takes a dim view of that one, they have very specific opinions on what kind of divinity the sun is and what you should do about it

[spring lynx]

i thought we were still on the "bluffing plebs about that totally-not-a-solar that just came through" ting

[wise ocean]

are you absolutely sure this isn't sun bullshit

[bleak hazel]

lamp magic is thankfully quite distinct when it goes loud

Solars are many things but quiet is not one of them

Lunars are much better at that

(unless it's a Stealth specialist solar, but there are like ten of those tops)

[tulip folio]

How fighty are Endings Sids in 3e? I imagine 'look, martial arts are right there' applies to All Sids though. XD

[bleak hazel]

they are more fighty than the average, because they get all the Fightan support skills like Awareness

every Sid can be quite choppy, though

handy passive anima power at bonfire, Endings gets + [Essence] Overwhelming, so they deal with Soak quite well

[tulip folio]

Pondering for that old 2e character getting an update/a shot at a new game. As she was really good at 3 things:

Fighting Stuff
Knowing Shit About The Underworld
Engaging in Corruption

[bleak hazel]

my guy is actually the Lawful variant of that

he is Ghost Detective Swordsid

not a fan of yu-shan, not a fan of abyssals, gets on pretty well with Lunars

[tulip folio]

In her case she was frustrating to her superiors because she was a master of finding the exact old law nobody had used for centuries that let her go 'Hey, I was doing this By The Book'.

[bleak hazel]

he doesn't actually have Lore, because this time I had to go get Presence and some other stuff, but the variant of him I keep around on the to-use-someday shelf is a lot more thinky

half a dozen craft charms, bit of lore, lots of awareness

[tulip folio]

She liked going 'I have a plan, now let me warp the legal system to make my plan something I'm allowed to do'

[bleak hazel]

less investigation than you'd think honestly

[tulip folio]

If I'm being remotely coherant?

[bleak hazel]

yeah, that's classic Sidereal activity

[tulip folio]

Her martial arts of choice are not available in 3e but there are likely solid replacements.

(She was Dark Messiah + First Pulse.)

[bleak hazel]

may I suggest Obsidian Shards of Infinity

if you don't mind big perception + taking Stealth

[tulip folio]

Big perception seems entirely valid. I don't recall what her mental stats were.

[bleak hazel]

Obsidian Shards has a very funny button that I will likely never use and would not work well on most big enemy Exalts but I do really like

[tulip folio]

Oh, the 'I will beat up your reflection to hurt you' one.

Oh wait, no

[bleak hazel]

"OK, we wheel the really big mirror in front of FAFL and then I hit him and run away, right?"

[tulip folio]

That was the 2e one

[bleak hazel]

it also has that

[tulip folio]

This one makes a funny mirror match

[bleak hazel]

the funny part is the enlightenment effect

I summon You to fight You

Avoidance Kata!

have fun

the other you just showed up, no idea what was going on with that

[tulip folio]

I also love that upgrade to make it indefinite.

You just Have An Evil Twin ruining your life now.

[bleak hazel]

oh, it's not an upgrade, Sidereals get all Enlightenment effects for showing up

it's the "this is part of the charm that Solars and Abyssals can't do" clause

[tulip folio]

Oh yeah, I meant that it's not something everyone can do but fair.

Still a very funny option

[bleak hazel]

although I do wish more of the charms had Enlightenment

it's a bit sparse on the giant capstones, which feels wonky

[tulip folio]

Solars have it too good?

[bleak hazel]

always

especially this edition, they already break the combat system in half twice by showing up

they don't need everyone else's cool toys to do it

[spring lynx]

and they still get half of those toys because they're resonant with everything

[tulip folio]

Is there a good martial art for just 'Hey, I want to just Brutalize This Guy'? As you need to master some martial arts to get into sid martial arts.

[bleak hazel]

yeah, Sidereal Brawl

[tulip folio]

Oh yeah but that wouldn't count as a marital art for getting to sid martial arts, would it?

[bleak hazel]

get Enlightened

smash people in the head with Obsidian Shards

good time

[tulip folio]

Oh, nice

[bleak hazel]

you also get one of the very few remaining Perfect X effects

in this case Perfect Soak (sorry about your grandma)

[tulip folio]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biAODWU841U&ab_channel=Gamer4Sight As her general 'vibe' in a fight was 'Sleeping Dogs/Yazuka Finishing Moves'. Since well, First Pulse loves itself some Enviromental Kills with Introduction to the Stone Prince etc.

...actually, sidereal brawl has a charm to make any improvised object an artifact, right?

[bleak hazel]

it's a Battles charm, so it's slightly more expensive for other Sids, but yes

[tulip folio]

I think I can handle 'slightly more expensive'.

[bleak hazel]

fun trick: garottes are brawl weapons and Improvised unless you're using them to grapple, so you can make artifact razor wire and then use the first purchase of this charm to reflexively ready it and boost damage

for that real Cyberpunk feel

[tulip folio]

That's very cool

[bleak hazel]

for Brawl I really do favour the artifact smashfists, and not just because there are some extremely cracked ones in the alch book

(I'm not using those anyway)

[tulip folio]

Smashfists are always fun.

They're also a really easy fluff for various enviromental kills

As long as I'm holding you with the smashfists while I smash your head into the object, it's good 😛

Actually, since Sids can get elemental style bonuses...

How's Earth Dragon? It seems like a good one for 'Hello, I am going to grab you and beat your head against this wall until either there is no wall or no head'

[bleak hazel]

makes you pretty damn 'ard, but very juice-expensive in a way that Sids don't like

[tulip folio]

nods

[bleak hazel]

also needs lots of Strength and Stamina which can be irritating with some builds

really you want either Brawl or something with Mastery, the dragon forms are very much specialised as Terrestrial +1

great fun, though

[tulip folio]

Fair! I'll rummage through the styles. Luckily there are very few that don't work unarmed.

[bleak hazel]

I did glance at it briefly because of this thing, but at E5 there are much better ways for your Sidereal to become that tough

you could just hit Sid Melee + Prismatic Form + Snake Form at the same time for 31m 3wp, put on heavy artifact armour and shoot up to 24+ soak instantly, for one

[tulip folio]

Laughing Monster Style has fun vibes.

[bleak hazel]

only two thirds of your mote pool, very affordable

oh it does

[tulip folio]

...wait...wait

[bleak hazel]

I have a Laughing Monster deeb in my upcoming game and I'm really looking forward to seeing them beat up various first circles with it

[tulip folio]

It only cares about hitting, not damaging.

You could Laughing Monster + White Veil to be just the Biggest Asshole.

'I'm not even fighting, why is everyone just stumbling about like idiots'

Okay got a few 'maybes' on martial arts.

Laughing Monster, Monkey Style, Swaying Grass or Falcon Style could all be fun.

Falcon Takes Flight + That Sid Charm Where You Can Just Stand On Fate's Strings Mid-Air seems very funny.

[bleak hazel]

oh yeah that would be a good one

throw on Hungry Spider for even more reflexive movement if they chase you

shame they don't share a Style weapon

you can always use the Threads but that only works with CMOS

so it would probably be just straight Unarmed

[tulip folio]

Yeah. So it would be the smashfists or god-kicking boots.

...not sure if there's much mechanical difference tehre in 3e

[bleak hazel]

can't use CMOS with either of those, and Enlightenment only forces compatibility with Brawl + CMOS, not CMOS + Falcon

[tulip folio]

Isn't smashfists and god-kicking boots the artifact version of 'unarmed'?

[bleak hazel]

this is the number 1 thing I dislike about Sidereals, is how much trouble they have mixing normal martial arts + SMAs

no, they're Brawl weapons

artifact unarmed is rather harder to get

[tulip folio]

...that's kinda weird. I'd really have expected them to be artifact unarmed. XD

[bleak hazel]

(Prismatic Arrangement of Creation has a subform at E4, I think that's your lot)

[tulip folio]

Also: Is it bad form to use Unnatural Many-Step Stride to take a mid-air nap where people can't reach you? 😛

[bleak hazel]

love my Fate Hammock

[tulip folio]

So Endings caste abilities plus:

Brawl
Athletics
Presence
Stealth
Occult

Perhaps? Presence and Occult are less for combat and more for 'got something social they can do' and 'Dealing with undeath stuff'.

[bleak hazel]

you start with Athletics anyway, so you have one more favoured

Athletics, Awareness, Bureaucracy, Integrity, Medicine, which is a really good spread

[tulip folio]

Oh right.

[bleak hazel]

I would probably pick up Resistance instead of Athletics

assuming you mostly want to be brawling

[tulip folio]

Oh? I was debating that or dodge. As dodge seems a pretty standard sid one.

[bleak hazel]

also good

if you want to go Dodge, pays to start with resistance 3 and 2-3 Ox-Bodies

since they'll be considerably more expensive after chargen

[tulip folio]

Makes sense.

...oh, presnece has a soak charm to start it.

[bleak hazel]

yeah

expensive one but not abysmal

[tulip folio]

...actually...she's knowledgeable about the dead but not a necromancer. I might skimp on Occult.

It's nice but she's more 'I know about this shit' than 'I do this shit personally'

Which is more 'some ranks in the skill' than 'full on favoured skill'

However lore seems more her 'I know all the ins and outs of stuff and how to use them to my benefit'

As it gives 'Be a Pedantic Fuck' abilities.

[prisma sun]

Wait

where's Laughing Monster

[bleak hazel]

now I'm thinking about it why does my Sidereal have occult rather than lore, I only need Summon Ghost and Summon Skellingtons

I suppose Lore is pretty Manipulation-based and he sucks at that, needs cha for craft

[bleak hazel]

lunar book

[tulip folio]

Endings Abilities +

Favoured:

Brawl
Dodge
Socialise
Stealth
Performance

Ended up adjusting things as I realized I'm kinda running too lean on stats as I'd like to focus more on 'Fighting and Socialing'. Performance and Dodge both use appearance and Socialize uses perception in the early stuff so I can start off with my social stats being mostly 'Hot but not great at other stuff' and grow from there. XD

Underling Invisibility Practice + Old Fellows Society Luncheon seems great for Infiltration.

[bleak hazel]

UIP is extremely good, yeah

[tulip folio]

Do the favoured look okay for a sid who wants to mostly 'engage in corruption' and 'beat things up'? XD

[prisma sun]

Damn

Man I don't know which Martial Art fits Drifts the best

[bleak hazel]

seems about right

[tulip folio]

Shroud of Death’s Allure feels like it could cause some real nonsense if used right.

[prisma sun]

Also is a Razorparasol in anything other than Arms of the Chosen

[tulip folio]

Actually: Silly question - why did you suggest stealth for obsidion shard? I'm not spotting anything in it that calls for stealth rolls?

[bleak hazel]

you can reflexively enter the form if you successfully become sneaky mid-fight, and you can use A Likeness of Absence to teleport out if hit by a decisive that you fully negate

but that is about it, yes, Stealth is by no means mandatory if you don't mind spending a turn establishing Form

[prisma sun]

Also silly question

https://i.imgur.com/EzclC3V.png

Does this stack with Void style

[tulip folio]

Ah, I see. Thanks!

[bleak hazel]

don't see why not, although you will need a second sword

[tulip folio]

Oh well, nothing wrong with a sid having stealth and not 100% sure anything I'd replace it with. XD

Does Birdsong Over Blades + Glimpse of Infinity work as I think it does?

As both birdsong over blades go 'No damage but have extra effects'

[bleak hazel]

Birdsong Over Blades foregoes the damage roll as well, so you never get to roll to trigger Glimpse

[tulip folio]

Aww, no 'Oh dear, he just Went Insane. Can't imagine how that happened'

[prisma sun]

You can reflexively call it to you

Which does mean "As long as it's next to you, it's 3 actions baby"

[bleak hazel]

Oh, that's without ending the evocation, I misread

yeah go wild

[prisma sun]

is Gnomon the coolest Starmetal Artifact

I cannot find anything that sparks as much joy as The World

[bleak hazel]

It's up there

Personally I like the sandals that can kick you into an alternate timeline but they aren't as juicy

[prisma sun]

Accruing every Artifact that turns me into a Jojo Antagonist to form the ultimate Araki villain

[tulip folio]

Monkey Style seems kinda cool, though I don't 100% know how powerful 'good at gambits' is.

[tulip folio]

...you know, if Alchs could access Sidreal Martial Arts, they'd be really good at Prismatic Arrangement of Creation.

As Games of Divinity Form expressly allows Bonus Appearance Dots to count for it.

So their 'my passive resting app is 8' would be valid.

[tulip folio]

...it's also, thinking more on it, likely the single most thematic martial art for them.

'Now, emulate a magical material!'

'Done!'

'Imagine yourself as...what?'

[upper stratus]

ADAMANT CASTE: ah fuck mate im none of these

[tulip folio]

Soulsteel Caste: "Hey come on, I'm not even a new magical material. You fuckers have this one already, where's my form?!"

...I wonder what Soulsteel and Adamant charms would do in Prismatic.

[upper stratus]

i think soulsteel should fuck around with inflicting artificial wound penalties (but as a VBoS fan im biased)

[tulip folio]

Adamant is a beautiful jewel but there's already a 'be pretty form' in Games of Divinity.

...I could see Adamant playing into its 'Removing Imperfections' theming.

By giving them like 'Reroll 1s until they stop appearing'

[upper stratus]

reroll 1s for sids would go hard

[tulip folio]

Soulsteel could play into either 'causing pain' or 'sacrifice' theming.

Artificial wound penalties or like 'Your wound penalties are ignored for actions but not defences', so you'll keep Doing Your Job until you die but you're not Entirely Unaffected.

[tulip folio]

...actually, do we have stats for God-Kicking Boots yet?

We've got them for the mundane version, Iron Boots

But I've not seen God-Kicking Boots yet and not all of the artifact versions of weapons match the mundane versions in traits

[upper stratus]

there's a pair of em in sids book

[tulip folio]

Ah, I was looking in the Lunars book

As that's where Iron Boots are statted

(Since they're a centipede style weapon)

Okay, yeah. Looks like they're 'Smashfists But Worse Tags'.

...also, neither smashfists nor god-kicking boots have the natural tag

Which to be fair: They're not part of your body

But natural is also 'doesn't require a ready action'

And I'm pretty sure your feet and hands are Always Available.

...do smashfists and god-kicking boots gain the +2 to clashes for having two of them?

As they always come in pairs

But they're also a single artifact/weapon as far as the game is concerned

Sorry for very silly questions.

[upper stratus]

do cestus have natural rag

tag

not at my book rn

[tulip folio]

Oh wait, I missed Worn is natural but with a different name.

I'm an idiot

[upper stratus]

lol

with enough grafting any weapon can become natural :)

[tulip folio]

checks if you're secretly a deathlord mad scientist

[upper stratus]

:3c

[upper stratus]

actually resent the implications only deathlords or abyssals can do mad flesh science. anyone can do mad science if they got the dedication

[bleak hazel]

Yes, there are many artifacts that are two or more identical weapons and they count, to the point there's a couple of artifacts that make the clash bonus bigger

[upper stratus]

it specifies fighting unarmed doesn't count as dual wielding for clash purposes but it smashfists and shit aren't unarmed so i guess it's fine? as long as it doesn't have natural tag i guess

[bleak hazel]

like the Heaven and Earth Gauntlets, which passively boost it to [essence, min 3] non charm dice and as such are probably the strongest 3 dot if you just want a weapon to attune to and forget about

[upper stratus]

society if i was allowed to use smashfists

[bleak escarp]

honestly if I have problems with 3e Lunars it's that I don't think they have enough infighting.

[bleak hazel]

I'm all for more infighting

Resonant: The wearer may select negative intimacies for this Evocation even if they are not relevant to their attacker.
also added this to the spite robe

it is for an Abyssal after all

I do now need a bunch of other evos for it

[bleak escarp]

Yeah the thing is like

[bleak hazel]

the Silken Armour in the Sid book has five evocations so I'm taking that as my model

[next delta]

Is the intent that hating other people helps here? Because that's really funny

"Wow, I am not going to die here, I still need to kill that asshole Ivory Blossom"

[bleak hazel]

yes

"negative intimacy" is a common hook for Abyssal stuff

[bleak escarp]

Overall the Pact feels appropriately multifaceted, lots of plates spinning at once and different influences pulling in different directions, very gameable, and I kind of love that 'palace intrigue' is a thing Lunars can do now with shahan-ya councils. It fundamentally works. I could see myself playing this quite easily, even running it if I can get my shit together enough to feel confident running anything.

But.

But it also feels like a very... Idealistic? model of the Exalted, and an organisation about them.

[prisma sun]

I mean yeah, I think 3e has a tendency to be "Everyone is genuinely trying their best"

[bleak escarp]

I keep finding myself asking, where's the hamartia? Where's the heroes clashing as their grand passions grind against each other? Where's the grudges and recriminations and setbacks that make the whole thing creak and teeter? They're not absent, there's stuff like the MHS/Raksi grudge and the Shadow Fang's grudging cooperation, but it all gets smoothed over and hasn't amounted to much of anything beyond "don't put these two next to each other at parties". The book is invested in selling the sense of a Silver Pact that works, that is in the final accounting a reasonably smooth, functional organisation that respects its members, and can treat heroic grudges as local problems that work themselves out, is chill with independent Lunars, etc, and I can accept that this answer works but I don't think I'm attracted to it as a model for how it should work.

Partly because I still remember the contrast of how TAW handled it, and I think the project struck gold there with the idea of the Silver Pact as something that ultimately didn't survive.

That it was a Shogunate institution that fractured under the weight of heroic passions and the frictions they produced, chafing and splintering under the attempted dominance of First Age Elders. It's a vision that feels closer to what I like about Exalted, the exploration of heroes as people who are great but not good, mighty and powerful and ideologically driven and therefore dangerous as much as they are inspiring.

[prisma sun]

I think one reason for it is, genuinely, the writers wanted an edition where Lunars were their own thing rather than type-casted into the sidekick role for Solars.

And that's why the Pact works so well, because it gives Lunars a strong reason to say "We don't NEED the Solars back."

[bleak escarp]

3e's Silver Pact has no Moonkillers, and more than that it doesn't seem to even recognise the idea that there might ever be a call for them. The Pact just kinda... worked this stuff out, or let people go home and cool off/brood about it. There are grudges, but they haven't amounted to much of anything beyond 'don't seat these two next to each other at parties'.

[upper stratus]

i don't think it's idealistic or whatever for a largely horizontally organized group that functions well to exist. sometimes there's just nice things

[bleak escarp]

Which, yeah, it definitely has upsides. The Pact works, and in working it puts forward a strong and valuable vision for the game - I think it struck exactly the right opening note by starting the chapter stressing its essential nature as a mutual aid network, because that instantly gives it a distinct niche on the meta/doylist level as compared to the more strictly heirarchical DB's/Sidereals and loose cannon Solars.

It's a personal taste thing, is all.

[bleak hazel]

meanwhile, in Abyssalland, strangely functional mentor-student relationships

the fact that deathlords are automatically 3 dot mentors is great

"yeah, us deathknights don't really work with each other but I have a strong and stable relationship with my Evil Dad"

[bleak escarp]

(Reading The Power Fantasy hasn't helped, tbh, because it's shown the value of the dynamic where like, if these grudges and conflicting passions aren't going to ruin the Pact, there can at least be a deal of anxiety about making sure they don't escalate.)

[prisma sun]

If I got the Legend-Forging Blow as an Evocation on King Hu he could attempt Strength 20 Demolition acts

This tickles me

[bleak escarp]

and it's also that like

one of the things I'm looking for is more acknowledgement that a lot of Exalted will already have history with each other from their mortal lives, because I like a less globetrotting view of the setting, where travel is hard and whole campaigns can take place in the same region.

helps to avoid the murderhobo problem if characters have to stick around in one locale long enough to put down roots, and that means my natural assumption is that when young Lunars meet each other, a lot of the time they should be from neighbouring regions with the attitudes and stereotypes that come with that.

[bleak hazel]

I've always thought that the Intercontinental Man Of Mystery creation-hopping gimmick was a good thing to give to Sidereals, with everyone else being a little bit more local

[prisma sun]

The thing is it's really really hard to keep Lunars specifically from not globe-trottinng

They do be turning into birds and horses and fish

[bleak escarp]

More acknowledgement that sometimes two Lunars meet and immediately start trying to tear each other's throat out because the fuck you mean divine brotherhood, I'm from Halta and that asshole's Linowan!

[bleak hazel]

because Lunars travel fast, sure, but they still really like having Their Turf

they even have a bunch of charms for it

[bleak escarp]

I mean a) animal travel isn't that fast, and b) they still grew up somewhere and have its culture bred into their bones.

[bleak hazel]

the things that let you zoom in the setting are basically "gates to heaven, (much trickier to use) gates to hell, sorcery" which I quite like

[prisma sun]

Also "being a Journey Sidreal"

[bleak hazel]

oh yeah and that

my current Sid is going Prismatic and one of the side perks of that is that he suddenly gains the ability to steal the Journeys anima power, which will be great fun

"hey guys we're going home now"
"what?"
zoop

[bleak escarp]

very much so, yeah

It's a shtick they've got a claim on.

[bleak hazel]

also helps deal with the perpetual narrative inconvenience of "my god there's like five of these guys, how can I justify having them be in anywhere but a major crisis zone"

[prisma sun]

I mean yeah I think the intent is that Solars go on Journey to the West style walks, Sidreals Teleport, Lunars patrol their general area, and DBs mundanely travel

[bleak hazel]

one thing that happened in Sidgame that I quite liked was the Lunars were like "OK, we need to go [moderately long distance], it'll take us about a week in bird form, sure you can keep up?" and the Sids went "we'll meet you there", called down the Calibration Gate, did five days of office work, got dinner in yu-shan and then ported back down and took a day's walk into the next town

which was lucky heavengate positioning but still very entertaining

[upper stratus]

i'd simply also turn into a bird and follow them

[bleak hazel]

don't have that one yet, sadly

[prisma sun]

I'd

https://tenor.com/view/dragon-ball-z-anime-fly-flying-here-i-go-gif-17322532

[next delta]

Clearly Alchemicals are the superior exalt type because they take public transit

[bleak hazel]

Soulsteel 007, we need you to deal with this Apostate

he's a huge NIMBY and it's getting in the way

[tulip folio]

I'd laugh my ass off at an artifact themed around discord that had positive dissonance effects and negative resonance effects.

[dense verge]

theres the one spell that summons a cloud for going fast iirc, that makes travel a solved problem for smaller parties

[bleak hazel]

Stormwind Rider is a classic, yeah

but that does require a good sorc who knows that one in particular

who despite being almost universal in PC parties are not quite standard in-universe, I think

[tulip folio]

The Alch fast travel option is just 'Call an Airship', as they don't have much innate there.

[dense verge]

Oh yeah, travel from a would-be globetrotters standpoint

[tulip folio]

I'm severely disappointed in the inability of alchs to turn into vehicles. 😛

[prisma sun]

I do like how Sorcerers have "Nimbus" and "Nimbus (Family Sized)"

[bleak hazel]

"one sorcerer per circle" can be kinda funny because Solars forming Circles is kind of odd to begin with

[next delta]

Dissonance with a magical material is uncommon right?

[bleak hazel]

it's not really the god-king MO

[prisma sun]

It's the normal

Solars are the only ones who aren't

everyone else is dissonant with the majority of materials

[dense verge]

i get turbo teen gif flashbacks anytime alch vehicle transformation is brought up since theyre more person-y than transformers shaped in my head

[next delta]

Circles are a conceit to it being an RPG. Exalt densities are so low it doesn't really make sense

[bleak hazel]

Sids are "starmetal resonant, everything else dissonant" and that's not super unusual

[prisma sun]

https://tenor.com/view/car-transformation-weird-confusing-70s-gif-17343455

[tulip folio]

Alchs are neutral to other materials

[bleak hazel]

Deebs and Sids it makes sense, Lunars too a lot of the time

[next delta]

Oh, ok. I guess I saw Alchemicals rules there most recently lol

[bleak hazel]

also Alchs come in squads

[dense verge]

this is why the designers didnt put in a vehicle mode charm

[tulip folio]

And resonant to themselves

[upper stratus]

solars actually keep bumping into each other and organizing into a circle cause of gold faction plots

[bleak hazel]

Abyssals... well, one deathlord has about a circles' worth of abyssals but they're still solaroids and tend to want to go different things

[next delta]

Ish, I do think there aren't really enough sidereals to make sense, but they did try to write stuff in for it to make sense otherwise

[dense verge]

its jojo rules, exalts have Gravity

[bleak hazel]

Sids being dispatched on specific missions makes it very plausible for the Bureau to go "look, this is enough Exaltpower to handle this, go knock over Problem X and be back in two weeks"

just not as their standard method of operation

[prisma sun]

I think Sidreal circles exist but it's rare for Sidreals to not be loners

yea

[tulip folio]

I'll admit I don't think I've ever seen an Abyssal game. They're very mixed circle characters as they look kinda like posers if a circle worth all rebel at once.

[bleak escarp]

Pretty sure 3e abyssals are gonna make it a lot more viable to be deathlord loyalists.

[bleak hazel]

I have a running joke that 85% of all Abyssals are renegade deathknights pretending to be uniquely tortured souls and they end up in the same bar

my Abyssal is very much an Underworld Enjoyer

[bleak escarp]

That said, I'm still not altogether clear how Lunars find each other reliably enough to outrace the Realm and keep the Pact going tbh. I know there's a sidebar on it but like... did the Wyld Hunt forget how to keep an ear to the gossip mill or something?

[tulip folio]

I played a loyalist Abyssal once. Mind you, she was a Princess Magnificent loyalist so loyalist is a bit air quotes.

[bleak escarp]

I can accept that this has to work as a conceit for the premise of the Silver Pact, and the result is cool and gameable, but it nevertheless rings a bit false.

[bleak hazel]

yeah that bit gets handwaved slightly, since it's mentioned that they sometimes beat Sidereals to new Lunars based on Unknown Methods (TM)

[next delta]

I feel like exalted has the 40k problem where you could multiply the number of exalts by 10-100 and still be fine lol. Though maybe I'm overestimating Creations population density (which I assume is between modern and pre-industrial earth levels)

[bleak hazel]

maybe someone has a First Age lunar-finding mirror or something

[bleak escarp]

A lot less than that.

[next delta]

Maybe Luna just tells people

[lunar magnet]

Shapeshifting helps withbeing slippery

[next delta]

Less is surprising. Creation is pretty massive though

[bleak escarp]

They had two apocalypses back to back like 800 years ago, remember?

[bleak hazel]

there being so few Celestials is kind of fun, I like it (with the one exception of Sids)

[bleak escarp]

The world has mmmostly recovered, but only mostly.

[next delta]

True, but they can support higher densities because of magic

[bleak hazel]

Deebs have a surprisingly reasonable density all things considered

magic does not generally produce more food, more sanitation etc. in Exalted

[prisma sun]

The Wyld Hunt doesn't usually go after Lunars nowadays

[bleak escarp]

Sure, but it doesn't help you find each other.

[dense verge]

luna shows up to a random lunar after exalting a funny little guy like "you would not BELIEVE the day i had"

[bleak escarp]

They sure used to tho

[bleak hazel]

you can get a Sorceror to do that, but it's expensive and time-consuming and sorcerors are all wierdos who don't tend to spend their lives sticking terrestrial working after terrestrial working on fields

[bleak escarp]

Magic causes problems that kill people as well as innovations that help people.

[prisma sun]

Yeah, but Lunars were successful enough in defeating Wyld Hunts that they largely are the reason the Realm's borders are defined as they are

[bleak escarp]

Sure

[tulip folio]

Imagine being the Lunars, hearing about a person who started glowing and turned into a bird and finding out you just found a newly exalted sid.

"Is this cultural appropriation?"

[next delta]

Hmm, really? I was thinking of all that old architecture plus effects of spirits too. Certainly it helps in the more extreme climates

[bleak hazel]

a bit of local fieldcraft/village thaumaturgy can get you a good relationship with the local harvest god and storm god, sure, but the crops won't grow drastically faster

[bleak escarp]

But you're still gonna get a lot of lunars who show up within the realm's borders and have A Bad Time.

[prisma sun]

Yeah

The Realm can't go a-conquering like they used to

[bleak hazel]

they also generally don't beat the Wyld Hunts by facechecking them, at least until you get quite deep into the threshold

[prisma sun]

Also Lunars probably find each other largely through "Oh hey, a giant pillar of moonlight that darkens the sky? And Zu-Ha-Zok, The Maw To Infinity has been killed?"

[lunar magnet]

Finding Lunars is the hard part for the Wyld Hunt

[prisma sun]

"Better go check that out"

[bleak escarp]

Right but

[bleak escarp]

The Wyld Hunt can do this too.

And they have the backing of an empire's resources, and sometimes Sidereal astrology, in doing so.

[prisma sun]

Yeah

[bleak escarp]

Also like, the biggest religion in the world.

[prisma sun]

But in the Threshold they don't

[bleak hazel]

"everyone races to get to the new exalt who doesn't know what they're doing" is a stock Exalt plot so I'm willing to leave it handwaved

[bleak escarp]

Yes they do.

The Realm is the dominant superpower in the world. They don't own everywhere, but they definitely have a presence in the Threshold.

[dense verge]

realm depends on bureaucracy, calling in people to hunt, arming them, needs people to see something, come back, file a report, while lunars are a lot more self-sufficient on the small scale. thrive in the gaps of administration

[lunar magnet]

You can narrow it down, sure. But finding a specific Lunar who has, like, a tenth of an idea of what they're doing with Shapeshifting is a pain

[bleak escarp]

sure but like

it's a pain for other lunars too

And yeah okay they know what to look for

So do Shikari?

[lunar magnet]

Shikari have an academic understanding

Lunars understand it because they can do it.

[bleak escarp]

Wha- no they don't they have lifelong experience of hunting these people.

[bleak hazel]

there are enough old shikari that they definitely have solid institutional memory there

they haven't kept the world's largest superpower going for a millennium by being idiots

[lunar magnet]

But they also aren't going to understand how a newly Exalted Lunar works in the same way a Lunar is.

[bleak hazel]

(unless there actually is a Locate Other Lunar's Tell button somewhere in their charmset, which there very well might be, I don't know 3e lunar mechanics well)

[bleak escarp]

A newly Exalted Lunar doesn't understand how they work!

[dense verge]

i can buy that finding a new lunar exalt is a footrace, one that other lunars usually win closer to the Threshold due to logistical difficulties, gaps in administration, other problems, and a leg up on the Lunar's part from unspecified insider trading

[bleak hazel]

the relevant thing for most plots here, I find, is less "who has the best understanding of how shapeshifting works" and more "who does Johnny Peasant, recently exalted Lunar, think is more terrifying" because Lunar exaltation doesn't come with a political briefing unless Luna is feeling unusually direct

it's very possible the Pact shows up and the new lunar goes "aah god terrifying murder spirit" and runs to the next heavenly zip code

[bleak escarp]

Basically like, I am fine with it being a race against time is fine and cool and good and makes sense. But Fangs at the Gate seems to take it for granted that it's a race that Lunars win a clear majority of the time, while I look at the balance of advantages and tools and feel like the Pact would be doing well to make it a 50/50 horse race.

[dense verge]

like, a lunar exalting on the blessed isle is up a creek without a paddle, because they are far far away from any lunar infrastructure save, spy networks

[next delta]

How fast does an exaltation find a new host? Because if it's relatively fast, the Lunars don't have to succeed as often

[bleak hazel]

I would assume that it's a 50/50 or worse, but when the Realm wins you just roll the exaltation bones again fairly shortly and when the Lunars win that exalt isn't reincarnating for a hot minute

[bleak escarp]

See, yeah, that makes sense

Wish the book pointed that out

Hell, I had a character concept who used that!

[next delta]

And I would assume Lunars do much better now in the threshold given the political situation

[lunar magnet]

Most of the Realm is the Threshold iirc

[bleak escarp]

Oh sure, now

[lunar magnet]

Like, The Realm is actually pretty decentralized

[next delta]

Yeah, but they are pulling back most of their forces due to internal tensions on the Isle

[bleak hazel]

I have an Abyssal, not my current Abyssal but an Abyssal, who has his daybreak mad science goal of "see how many lives you have to torturously murder a Solar/Lunar for before the past life memories make the new one just crack on Exaltation"

[bleak escarp]

Sure, but that's a recent development

[next delta]

True

[bleak hazel]

currently not making much progress on that because after round 1 it's hard to find your test subject again

[next delta]

But it conveniently means that PC characters will have a better time of things lol

[lunar magnet]

So even at their best, there was a ton of territory that the Shikari and Siddy support had to cover

[bleak hazel]

true, but there are a lot more of them than their competition, and it's not like Lunars aren't also busy

[lunar magnet]

And this is putting aside the post Shogunate problems that gave the Silver Pact time

[bleak escarp]

I like the idea of... kind of a more mournful take on Rukhsara-Who-Remembers, I guess. Another old knower who died, and then the Realm or Sidereals found their new incarnation first, because they're hooked into the rumour mill as well and the Wyld Hunt has its chapter houses all over and Sidereal divination is no small thing, and by all rights finding new Lunars should be a pretty tight race even for Lunars who are switched on and devoted to running it rather than their local issues, and so the new incarnation dies, and now they're two generations out and haunted by the dreams of all the things they knew and almost remember, muddled by lethe and traumatic echoes.

[lunar magnet]

So, in short, the Pact has more ability to focus on finding new Lunars than the Realm does

[bleak escarp]

I don't buy that, tho.

[prisma sun]

I mean that's explicit though

[bleak escarp]

I know it's explicit, I don't buy it.

[prisma sun]

The Realm has 2000% more things to focus on than the Wyld Hunt

[bleak escarp]

Yeah but like

So do Lunars?

[lunar magnet]

The Realm views Wyld Hunts as a side goal to ruling the world

The Silver Pact needs Lunars to exist

[prisma sun]

Yes, but Lunars are much more able and wiilling to drop everything to find another Lunar

[bleak escarp]

Are they?

[lunar magnet]

Yes. This is text.

[bleak escarp]

Text is not sacrosanct.

[bleak hazel]

Lunars don't necessarily like each other nor do they consider the Silver Pact their primary agenda, I could very well see a fairly common attitude of "well, when someone lasts long enough for us to find them or them to find us we get our new recruits, but I have stuff to do"

FATG is very much dedicated to making the Pact the primary organisation for Lunar Stuff, though, so I can see why it goes the way it does

[prisma sun]

A Lunar taking a week to stop being god-king to track down reports of a mysterious shape-shifter in their Dominion is a lot easier than a Satrap calling up a Hearth of Shikari + Auxilleries

[bleak escarp]

I don't think it makes sense for that to be true.

[prisma sun]

how

it's supported by every mechanical and flavor text

[lunar magnet]

Or the Lunar taking some time away from their latest scheme to get the newly Exalted Lunar

And like, one member of the Silver Pact making a choice is always going to take less time than Bureaucracy.

[prisma sun]

Lunars don't have to ask anyone permission to do anything

They can just go "Oh yoink"

The Peasant must ask a Magistrate who must send word to the Capital of the Satrap who must arrange a meeting with the Immaculate Order who might need to send a letter to the Blessed Isle to request that reinforcements be sent across the Sea

Every single person in the above equation also has a 45% chance of being super corrupt

[bleak hazel]

Exalted bureaucracy is supernaturally good in the sameway that Exalted everything is, and the Wyld Hunt has quite far-flung bases even with their resources drawn down these days

[bleak escarp]

Like, the Realm is more than the Wyld Hunt, but it still has the Wyld Hunt. Until very recently it had the wealth and strength to maintain an organisation devoted full-time to hunting down Anathema, keeping tabs on rumours and hunting down reports. For most of the Realm's life there have been chapter houses and chapels of monks whose vocation in life is for DB Jimbob to burst in the door yelling, "we got reports of a Face-Stealer the next province over, grab your shit and go go go!" because for many of them this is a sincere religious mandate.

Lunars... Don't have that. Every Lunar is a local hero who has their own stuff going on, stuff that matters to them, stuff that's their life's work. Sometimes their own shit is being someone like Swift Wayward Whispers, who makes maintaining the Pact their vocation in life, there will totally be Lunars whose lifes work is finding each other, but for damn sure not all of them. They aren't necessarily more likely to hear these rumours first, and when they do hear them, they might be right in the middle of a heroic undertaking - 'taking a week to stop being god-king' 'taking some time away from their latest scheme' this stuff has costs! Costs for things that heroic figures are passionately invested in!

[bleak hazel]

I don't think its' quite as skewed as you're saying it is, I could see it being a coinflip

[lunar magnet]

Even in the best case of "A Sidereal called this" its gonna take some time.

[prisma sun]

The Wyld Hunt isn't like

https://tenor.com/view/f-bi-raid-swat-gif-11500735

[bleak hazel]

Deebs are not actually just sitting around on the Isle waiting for a Sid to dispatch them, they are out doing stuff or ready to go

and there are lots of them

[prisma sun]

It's an army sent on an assassination mission

[bleak escarp]

Not entirely, no, but there is a core of it that genuinely is.

You do get full-time Shikari who take this as their mission from god the Dragons and devote every waking hour to it.

[next delta]

Anathema covers a lot more ground than other exalted (so does face stealing as a trick)

[prisma sun]

Yes, but only the most absurdly powerful Deebs are going to try and Mano-y-Mano an Anathema

[lunar magnet]

In short, a lot of things have to line up for a Wyld Hunt to get moving, and requires more people to be on the same page.

[bleak hazel]

an experienced deeb at 4-5 vs a Lunar at 1-2 is a pretty fair fight honestly, and there's a fairly high chance that the Lunar isn't a combat-specced full moon, but it's not like the classic Wyld Hunt isn't 3-5 guys

(on a side note, I like the art in the Lunar book that just goes "yeah, fair enough, 90% of PC lunars are going to learn Tyrant Lizard Mode eventually)

[next delta]

It would be funny if the wyld hunt's reputation was exaggerated because they mostly worry about solars and until recently there was like 3 of them at most

(this is not actually the case to be clear)

[lunar magnet]

Fighting Lunars is not the problem. Finding the bastards is

[prisma sun]

The 3 Worst Solars in existence just can't help but getting killed

[next delta]

It's why no one bothered to shove them in the Jade Prison

[bleak escarp]

Yeah like, a Sworn Brotherhood of DB's is a pretty functional Wyld Hunt, both as trackers and as killers.

[upper stratus]

bull's circle built different

[lunar magnet]

And to be frank, newly Exalted Lunars are less of a problem than active Silver Pact members

[bleak escarp]

A bunch of retainers and soldiers would probably just slow them down.

[bleak hazel]

I appreciate that 3e took the time to make it clear that the Realm are not in fact a bunch of wannabe exalts sitting around waiting for the celestials to show up and push them over

they do in fact throw colossal hands even in their current teetering state

[next delta]

But I'm now imagining the Bull's circle being incompetent but they've found themselves in their strong position via a comedy of errors

[bleak hazel]

Death of Stalin, creation AU

[upper stratus]

i think 'well they just need one sworn brotherhood for good odds' is true but also these are people with a sense of self-preservation and they probably want a survival chance higher than 'good' and grab some extra to bump that up to 'great' even if that makes them slower

[prisma sun]

Yeah I'm not saying the Wyld Hunt cann't be successful

I'm saying it's harder for them to find a Lunar than another Lunar by virtue of

1. Being the enemy they're actively hiding from
2. Having to be bholden to a beuracracy.

[bleak hazel]

five deebs vs 1 lunar is in fact Great Odds, it's the risk of "the lunars got here first and there's three experienced Pact guys on top of the target" that causes the big problems

[lunar magnet]

You could send a Wyld Hunt after the new Lunar, but every moment you do that is a moment where that's not a Hunt towards some actively trying to weaken the Realm

[next delta]

Though, finding a person, little alone a weirdly marked animal, seems really hard on a place as big as creation

[upper stratus]

they also have to take in consideration that they and a silver pact lunar might find the fresh lunar at the same itme and now they have to deal with them too

[bleak hazel]

the Wyld Hunt explicitly has been extremely successful for eight hundred years and are very experienced and talented at this

[next delta]

And Lunars have more of a survival instinct than Solars lol

[dense verge]

its hard working at the panopticon factory

[bleak hazel]

there's a reason that until very recently the Realm was still expanding even if the underlying infrastructure was being steadily battered, especially in the West

[bleak escarp]

And also like... You can have a Sworn Brotherhood that hares off on the trail to get the hunt started while somebody stays behind to whip up support elements to follow.

[lunar magnet]

Don't forget the Exalts that also start talking with their neighbors and uh oh now there's an army

[bleak escarp]

A Dragon of troops and a Fang of bound elementals aren't gonna help with tracking a Face-Stealer down, but as long as they're ready by the time you do...

[prisma sun]

You are also part of an oppressive and at times genocidal regime

So you go outside of that Regime and everyone's gonna be saying "Get the fuck out of my house"

[bleak hazel]

my personal version of this is basically "if you exalt as silver or gold on the Isle you're screwed, if you exalt in most of the threshold you're likely screwed, if you exalt in Lunarzone you're good" and the incredibly contested hunts are if anything a minority because they only happen in fairly specific areas of Threshold territory with coincidentally similar timing for both sides

which is still plenty to supply the Pact with recruits because they only have to get lucky once-a-century but the Hunt has to be lucky every time

there are plenty of Threshold states that skew towards the Realm even if they're not directly controlled by it, it's not just "the isle and then everyone that hates them"

like most giant empires they have many clients and lots of foggy border zones

which presumably are the hotspots for dramatic wyld hunting

[bleak escarp]

Mmyep. A lot of empire-building is about duping people to buy into your hype.

[upper stratus]

i feel like we're operating on different definition of the treshold here cause iirc that's just the realm's term for 'everything that's not on the blessed isle (whether a satrapy or not)'

[bleak hazel]

(my thoughts on Lunars in the Blessed Isle may have been slightly skewed by recently getting into Demon: The Descent, which has very similar vibes with more tech)

[bleak escarp]

Yeah that's my definition too.

Or, well

I might draw a line between the Threshold proper and the outer reaches where it gets more Wyld-tainted. Middlemarches and beyond, that kind of thing.

[prisma sun]

I'm operating off the canon that the Realm's borders are largely defined by Lunar Dominions acting to slow down their expansion

[bleak escarp]

Things get weird out there.

[bleak hazel]

demon and Lunar activities when being sneaky and going loud are surprisingly similar

[dense verge]

sorry unrelatedly i just had the thought of a pre-shogunate eclipse caste solar that survived because of divine diplomatic immunity while in yu shan and has been talking mad shit for 5000 years well aware he cant leave this 100 sq ft embassy but neither can anyone kill him, going off like dracula flow. heaven does not acknowledge this man and the embassy is in the ass end of nowhere in heaven these days

i do know that by canon, the diplomatic immunity eclipse clause has not been tested in heaven

but i can dream

[prisma sun]

I'm moving different

Sidreals tried to Usurp me. Tore the Fivescore Fellowship into Five Fucking Pieces.

[bleak hazel]

Solar Assange but with bars

[dense verge]

"I'm Son of the Dragon, I'm 5000 fucking years old"

[prisma sun]

Been fucking the God of Fleshlights for a thousand years straight, like an elephant in must. This shit ain't nothing to me man.

[bleak hazel]

reposting this concept in the deebgame server devoid of all context

[wise ocean]

10ft window garden (exotic drugs)

[prisma sun]

Got my Resources at 10 dots. If I lose this ice the Guild will go fucking bankrupt.

Don't need an Excellency to bounce your dog ass, fuckboy.

Smoking on the Supreme Superlative Sedation inhale, lip lick, Boddhisatva-Creation Tzatziki Za.
Saw the Wheel in it's Entirety.

[bleak hazel]

lion-dogs sitting outside playing Incredibly Loud Hymns as an annoyance tactic

[prisma sun]

The only range bands I care about are the ones in my bank account you stupid fuck.

I am at my Limit.
I am about to go stupid.
I need to be stopped.
Someone, please. Stop me.
Or innocents WILL be HARMED.

[wise ocean]

The only time I ever held an obol was when I borrowed my cousin's Central Isle Treasury coinpurse to pay for a stuffed pangolin at the village fair
When I took my daughter there on a trip amidst a lengthy child custody battle with my ex-Lunar
Attempting to prove to the magistrate that I'm a responsible father
But we all know I'm fucking not
I've spent the last thousand years inside these four walls and she already knows what opium tastes like
I'm fucked
Magistrate, if you're seeing this, please let me have Whispers of Sunlit Serenity back
I even wore my nice astral projection form to the last court hearing
I'm ready to change```

[upper stratus]

would work on gods but sadly a group of bronze sidereals will still walk in and stab you to death

[dense verge]

dang...

[bleak hazel]

there should be a Bureaucracy Sidereal Martial Art to go along with the Medicine one

[dense verge]

"Do... do we need to kill this guy? It saves us the trouble of shoving his exaltation in the Jade Prison"

[bleak hazel]

spurious lawsuit infliction

[upper stratus]

wait this might work

eclipse has the social rizz to convince them killing them is more work than not doing it

[bleak hazel]

Sidereals just tied his various appeals up in infinite heavenly bureaucracy and left him there, yeah

[upper stratus]

'you can kill me, but then you have to hunt down my exaltation over and over. or i just sit in this house and yell at people for the next 5000 years'

[bleak hazel]

I need more evocations for this armour and after the really fun hatred-powered soak machine I can't think of any

[wise ocean]

Spend motes after soaking damage to deal some amount of soak-based damage back to people in melee range of you as tangles and stakes of thorns

[prisma sun]

"If your attacker has a Negative Major+ Tie, once per story you may roll a gambit to redirect a successsful attack to them, regardless of where they are in Creation"

[upper stratus]

everyone has a major+ negative tie, it came free with their character creation

[prisma sun]

Exactly

[bleak hazel]

plenty of basic room for "when you use [standard abyssal penalty negator] against someone you dislike, gain +1 evasion" and "1/scene when attacked, press button to gain/strengthen negative tie"

thorns sounds like a good candidate for an E2

and then capstone that either boosts the armour further or does some kind of big redirect like Voy suggests

[prisma sun]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vf3Wj_d-aOE

this

[next delta]

Maybe no one wants to test it. So the Exalt hasn't technically invoked it but at the same time no one has tried to attack the Solar

[bleak hazel]

you know, "when you dodge, press button for [intimacy] withering damage" works pretty well

also this was hilarious, thank you

it's pretty mean but that's what mote costs are for

[fierce star]

Query: Do you think a celestial-level non-solaroid exalt being able to learn excactly one thematically appropriate SMA (requiring a tutor) would be too much?

[dense verge]

no, thats laid out as an option in the exigent book for like, on-theme exigents iirc

[bleak hazel]

I believe it is stressed to be specifically if their whole deal is basically right on top of that SMA

so like "god of sword arts"

can I take a wild guess and say this is Games of Divinity Form

[dense verge]

god of hourglasses

get you on that emerald gyre

[bleak hazel]

the big issue here is that you're attribute based

so every single one of your charms is automatically compatible with martial arts, making you a considerably better martial artist than an actual Sidereal if you get their Arts

this is the primary reason Lunars don't get to play in the Mastery pond, for instance

[fierce star]

Yeah it's prismatic arrangement of creation. The attribute-based bit was also a concern, though that is likely to be reasonably balanced out by the vast majority of Auroral charms being inefficient when used solely on yourself; they have some of the bread and butter celestial tier stuff, but the intent is that it'll be less mote efficient than a lunar or sidereal doing the same thing, but with the ability to use it on other people as well. Of course that's all theoretical at this point, I don't have many of their charms made right now.

[bleak hazel]

I don't like this but I don't like anyone other than Sids getting access to all of SMAs in the first place, I much preferred the old "you get the first half of the style" sutra setup

[fierce star]

Currently the rest of their access is 'no mastery keyword but doesn't suffer terrestrial, terrestrial and celestial sorcery, no necromancy'

[bleak hazel]

other people coming in and taking the whole damn thing really treads on the role SMAs have these days in being many of their high essence charms

[fierce star]

That's fair. That's the main reason I was thinking of limiting to to just the one style at all; frankly I don't think solaroids should be able to learn SMAs willy-nilly either, even if I do kind of think 'fighting a sidereal with an SMA counts as being tutored by them' makes for hilarity for abyssals (and presumably infernals)

[bleak hazel]

have you considered making their own custom SMA style?

[fierce star]

... honestly I hadn't, but that could be fun. Prismatic fits, but only like, 80% perfectly

and I mean I'm already making a full-ish celestial tier charmset plus some sorcery spells and at least one normal MA, probably two since I'm vaguely trying to present this as an actual ex3 exalted-type splatbook

[bleak hazel]

use the template of the one on the Abyssal book where your Exalts get Enlightenment once they master it, at Essence 5, but Sids just grab it out of the box as ever so they're not completely eclipsed as Chief Karate Men and get a fun new toy

the attribute-based thing is a pain, though

[fierce star]

Yeah, for that we'll see how their native charmset shakes out, if it's too efficient at combat BS then probably not.

[bleak hazel]

I suppose you could just say they don't get Enlightenment at all but then you need to add some Sid-Only effects to your martial art that your exigents won't get to use

which I would like but might be a bit too much unnecessary hassle

[fierce star]

Oh, I wasn't intending for them to get Enlightenment with Prismatic either. I am a firm believer that enlightment should be only for sids, if other splats get SMAs (I understand this is not a position the devs hold)

(I have a lot of positions like that actually)

[bleak hazel]

Prismatic is a tricky one to give out in the first place because normally it's compatible with no weapons and no armour, but attribute-based exalts can combine their combat charms with it anyway because they aren't Melee or Brawl

I like the idea of the custom one slightly more, but I'm not sure how it gets cross-balanced for that kind of thing

[fierce star]

I'll leave them with prismatic for now and when I get to actually filling in charms see where it feels at, I think, and see if inspiration strikes me for a custom one; if it does it'll be easy to swap it out, though I'm also vaguely leaning towards that if only becuase I like the fluff of 'a martial art based on the auroras of creation that almost completely stopped working when aurora died, but now those few sidereals who studied it as a lark have full access and want to know what the hell is happening' is a lovely plot hook

and I love building rope into my designs.

(also I wouldl ike to thank the channel for help with my rambling BS)

[bleak hazel]

I'm interested to see what the costings on all their charms end up looking like, actually

there are some interesting examples in the Sid Melee tree, where they have charms that are very similar to identical Solar charms but more expensive because they can cover their friends

like their reflexive clash charm - same essence level, 4m 1wp vs 1m 1wp because the Sid one can clash attacks aimed at someone else

you know, the more I mess around with Sid Melee the more I like it

going to need to get some silken armour that isn't designed for Evasion users rather than Parry users, though

I suppose I could wear the soulsteel stuff that I was working on for my Abyssal but that feels like a slightly bad idea for a stars boy

[bleak hazel]

now that I think about it, you could just go with the advice in the Exigent book and say "only charms with the versatile keyword are compatible with martial arts, despite this being an attribute exalt", then restrict Versatile to the very basics (onslaught negator, dodge charms, etc.)