#Arkham Horror: The Card Game

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astral flower
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I think Yorick is both a great tank because he can recurse soak items and also has that kind of raw damage output

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so weirdly enough if we're just talking raw power I think a survivor is really up there haha

mortal hazel
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I think you're partially underestimating Tommy there

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(I guess the obvious point to specifically three monsters is that Tommy can drop dynamite on himself without a sweat)

astral flower
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haha yeah i guess he can do that

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arkham does a good job of letting you convert tankiness to damage and vice versa

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I think Nathaniel is probably the guardian I rate the most highly relative to other people

mortal hazel
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personally I think Nathaniel is fun, but not, per se, powerful, if that makes sense

astral flower
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He has felt really busted for me, I have been playing him in a campaign and it has felt like unless it's specifically a boss monster it's basically an insect to be stepped on (and for boss monsters I do have one two punch)

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Possibly the campaign I'm playing just has monsters that line up really well against Nathaniel's attack patterns, though?

indigo cedar
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every time I see tommy I double take

mortal hazel
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(And partially that we mostly just don't use the flamethrower in our groups)

proven acorn
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this was probably down to my deck building, but when I played NatCho recently I felt like I just stalled hard when I ran out of events at a bad time

mortal hazel
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tbh I think that's part of Nathaniel's charm

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He's interesting, and while his deckbuilding is pretty straightforward, there's some nuances to it - like, yeah, draw, and reliability, and his piloting especially can take some finesse to avoid burnout

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Other Guardians can be like "I put on my flamethrower and just win" - and, well, to be fair, so can Nathaniel, he mostly just doesn't

proven acorn
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I did enjoy playing him

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but it was agonizing to have to regular punch things when I had burned my events and then we ran into a bad situation

mortal hazel
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see

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that's why you regular punch things early when you can afford to, and pace yourself

proven acorn
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yeah I know its probably mostly how I piloted it, so I don't put that on the character

mortal hazel
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yeah, haha

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like I said, I think it's part of his charm. He's interesting to play in a way that most Guardians struggle to be

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And I've built some pretty cursed decks in the pursuit of making interesting Guardian decks

astral flower
astral flower
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like boxing gloves draws an event, and then I also have 2 overpower and 2 daring

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and then there's also glory if you want it, although I actually cut glory because I drew more than enough

proven acorn
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I also kept whiffing on the gloves, which was probably just bad luck

astral flower
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I do think that Nat is very weak without his gloves, but I just hard mulligan for them every game

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I think like hmm

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that might be a deckbuilding issue

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I think in a lot of my boxing glove activations it was mathematically impossible for me to whiff

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since my deck was sufficiently event heavy that it's either next to impossible or actually straight up impossible for me to look at 9 cards and find a spirit event in 0 of them

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I guess a flamethrower would probably be better than nat yeah

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I kinda put it out of my mind because we have just been not taking it due to it being so powerful

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prenerf cyclopean hammer probably better too haha

mortal hazel
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Also IIRC you were playing the ||Dark Matter|| campaign as him, right? I've been slightly spoiled on it to the effect of it being a campaign that is fairly light on enemy management

mortal hazel
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Sometimes I try and save an upgraded Stand Together for that moment

proven acorn
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I just got really unlucky I think

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part of the feel of running out was also that I whiffed a crucial attack due to auto fail

astral flower
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not like an every scenario thing though

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But I don't think I need to

astral flower
mortal hazel
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often you don't, yeah, especially if you're not the only handler on the team

astral flower
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yeah

mortal hazel
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When I played Nathaniel in a 4p Scarlet Keys campaign I had a Joe as backup and I did at least empty my deck of Spirit events nearly every scenario

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and yeah that's one of Nathaniel's big weaknesses, especially early and middle in the campaign

astral flower
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like on average it's 1-2 enemies per mythos phase, so if I did literally 100% of the enemy handling and the scenario lasts 12 turns, I'd have to kill 24 enemies max. I have 17 events in my deck, beat cop, guard dog, and the ability to punch at 7 or 8 fight without committing any skills

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and if i just have like, a single mystic that pulls out a shrivelling or a sword cane to help out a tad

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it's really not hard to do everything you need to without needing to reshuffle, at least IME

mortal hazel
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About 30% of encounter cards are enemies in a fairly typical encounter deck, yeah, the way I often think of it is that there's 3 hit points of enemy in the average mythos phase

astral flower
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(I did cycle a couple of times before I cut glory though)

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yeah 3 hit points is like, one event + one punch

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and I was playing 3P so it's slightly less

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I usually empty my deck of spirit events (or near empty it) but I rarely actually run dry

mortal hazel
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(alternatively 1/3rd of an enemy per investigator per turn - though of course the problem turns are the ones in which there's a spike)

astral flower
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yeah dark matter is slightly low on enemy management

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although part of that is that ||it has whipporwhill style enemies that don't need to be dealt with asap so you can ignore them for a couple of turns, and I killed those on sight because I had nothing else to do, which means the dark matter enemy pool was slightly more dense for me than for a typical group||

mortal hazel
proven acorn
mortal hazel
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yeah

proven acorn
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also both of us sucked at evading

astral flower
mortal hazel
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That's also why I probably wouldn't have 17 spirit/fight event cards in a Nathaniel deck, at least not without versatile -> down the rabbit hole thickening my deck

astral flower
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like a nice old fashioned 5 damage gang up on the big boss followed up with my upgraded one two punch

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is exactly what I need

mortal hazel
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Safety for when Tommy Malloy pops out on a bad turn, basically

astral flower
mortal hazel
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Guard Dogs, Beat Cops, and Medical Students (or such) are your friend there

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nah, I think it's just kinda smart to have at least a secondary fighter in 4p

proven acorn
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I did actually run DtRH haha

astral flower
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otoh i would like

mortal hazel
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yeah

astral flower
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consider kymani a great enemy handler

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and they can't do anything against bosses other than backstab or something

mortal hazel
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Kymani can absolutely kill bosses if you build them right

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Yeah

astral flower
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yeah recursing backstab

mortal hazel
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Trick there is that upgraded backstab can be recurred

astral flower
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yeah

proven acorn
mortal hazel
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And that does add up quickly

astral flower
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and nat has one-two punch too which is quite good against bosses

mortal hazel
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It's still not amazing for taking out enormous 20-40 hit point bosses

proven acorn
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this was the Nat deck I ran with Ace through NotZ

astral flower
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but kymani would definitely prefer a scenario with only small enemies, is what I mean

mortal hazel
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But it's gonna contribute

mortal hazel
astral flower
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The bosses that are like, 3 * 4 hp are totally okay for any decent enemy handler to take out, even the ones that are weak against bosses

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it's the elder gods that have 1000 hp that I'm worried about

mortal hazel
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(Also DtRH is a bit funny in a 3-scenario campaign, I'll admit. though I guess 4xp is 4xp, though, uh, I guess that's not saving much more than you spent on versatile...)

proven acorn
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yeah it wasn't meant for that campaign specifically

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I just had it ready and wanted to test it a bit

astral flower
mortal hazel
astral flower
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that's why I built tool bag zoey

mortal hazel
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So like usual, I evaluate resiliency pretty highly

astral flower
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it was a dumb build that wasn't high on power level but tried to be reliable in all circumstances by dual wielding a big boss killer with a survival knife

astral flower
mortal hazel
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It doesn't, per se, it just means you have more cards in your deck, so you're more likely to have 17 events

astral flower
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oh, I see - they increase deck size so you have less % chance of drawing him?

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ahh yeah

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my deck did have that combo

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and I never felt pressed about tommy malloy

mortal hazel
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Which I'd consider very high if you only had 30 cards in your deck (+ signatures/weaknesses)

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The problem with Tommy Malloy is mainly when there's already a boss out and you have five cards left in your deck and you know he's one of them, basically

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Which is a scenario where I want to have guard dogs, beat cops, and the tech to keep these healed and everyone else alive

astral flower
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This is what my deck looks like going into the final scenario, fwiw

image.png
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uh, it's even thicker than it looks

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i got some special story assets from the campaign that I add into my deck but don't show up on arkhamdb

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since they're not from official campaigns

mortal hazel
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yeah

astral flower
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so that might factor into the thickening as well

mortal hazel
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right, pretty reasonable mix, actually

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For some reason the numbers added up a bit different in my head (probably because I'm so used to thinking of deck size = 30, so 17 events == combined total of 13 skills/assets), but no, that looks like everything I'd kinda want to have in there

astral flower
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I have found this build to be reasonably resilient, I have 5 allies with reasonable soak (randall especially is a disposable ally that soaks 3 horror, which is your weak vital), hallowed mirror, TTI to help me with stuff like rotties, and counterpunch to help me kill enemies that would ordinarily get to strike me

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it's not the tankiest build ever

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and I could definitely make it tankier (if I had an extra scenario worth of XP I would probably do so)

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but I haven't felt like a glass cannon really

mortal hazel
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yeah

astral flower
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I think people underestimate TTI as a safety card sometimes

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it's like when aneta got savant in winifred to help against willpower treacheries, except it can help against all kinds and is 0 XP

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it has really performed well for me

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on the resiliency front a small thing I have thought about is putting guts in decks where the investigator has 3-4 willpower naturally but isn't a mystic

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I feel like testing rotties at 5-6 virtually negates it, and you can always cycle it on a safe test if you don't need it

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I haven't gotten a chance to do so yet, because so far I've ended up pretty overloaded on skills or just don't need the help with rotties, but I've been letting the idea stew in my brain and it makes a little bit of sense to me

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like if I was forced at gunpoint to cut daring from my deck

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I might be like "hey, why not put in guts?"

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and honestly with how high my base fight is, maybe that is actually better haha, I rarely need daring's fight boost

mortal hazel
exotic robin
mortal hazel
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Either or, yeah

exotic robin
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unless I can get Promise of Power

mortal hazel
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Guts or TTI or Steadfast

astral flower
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I like TTI over steadfast unless I've played the campaign before

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I've seen some nasty checks gated by foot or book

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If I know for a fact I'm only scared of willpower checks then yeah steadfast makes sense

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outside of guardian/mystic guts might make sense to fill that role

mortal hazel
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Frozen in Fear gets tested at the end of your turn and is extremely brutal for main fighters and TTI usually does absolutely nothing against it

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oh lol speaking of Flamethrower I'm in a TFA campaign just now with a limited cardpool and guess what Aneta has in play in round two on scenario two

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I was not paying attention when she put that into play

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(the limited cardpool, TFA, and two less experienced players in the group means she's not being even remotely chill)

pale jacinth
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Are there any recommendations for good starter campaigns for teaching new players? Thinking of recruiting off-server friends, and would appreciate any advice from more experienced players

mortal hazel
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Path to Carcosa is a fairly balanced, mechanically straight-forward campaign with some cool but comprehensible twists

astral flower
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NotZ for the tutorial, Path to Carcosa for campaign 1

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Also I just like Carcosa. One of my favorite campaigns

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It has a special mechanic you unlock halfway through a certain route that is my favorite board game mechanic of all time

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Just make sure to bring someone who fights with spells

tough owl
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oh, backscroll

mortal hazel
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after watching this, I think point 1/2 is still good, point 4 is not bad, but point 3 is actually really bad by itself
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ez2EI_xiseA

YouTube
Quick Learner
Four Deckbuilding Traps for New (and Old) Players | Arkham Horror D...

Deckbuilding deckbuilding deckbuilding! It's good to start a campaign off right, with the right investigators and decks! But since deckbuilding is so open, sometimes it's easy to build and play a deck that just doesn't... work. Here I go over 4 common traps in Deckbuilding, talking through some of the challenges of each one. #arkhamhorrorlcg

▶ Play video
tough owl
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time to watch this and go "hey, I did that in my deck!"

mortal hazel
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i do see people do a lot of these things all the time, especially newer players

mortal hazel
astral flower
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I feel like if i saw someone with 8 skills in their deck i would bat an eye

wispy phoenix
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No way

astral flower
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Vicious blow, TTI, overpower, daring

wispy phoenix
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7-10 or bust

astral flower
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Yep, average guardian!

wispy phoenix
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Hm

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Having a session 0 is a good idea

astral flower
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Re: point 4, I think netdecking from ArkhamDB is dangerous

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There is a lot of weird stuff on there

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Sometimes its people from earlier sets who don't take into account current taboos/new cards and sometimes it is just truly bizarre stuff that idk how the original poster made work

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i will see like pure fighter guardians that have 2H weapons and then they randomly splash a flashlight and perception, I guess to try to flex or something?

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or decks with a ton of assets and the only econ card is 1x ecache

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Netdecking from trusted sources is fine for a new player

mortal hazel
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I've seen about three netdecks I unambiguously liked and anything else would definitely have to be vetted by an experienced player first

mortal hazel
wispy phoenix
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Yeah, fair

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I generally have 8

mortal hazel
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(I think going higher than that is kinda a mistake even in someone like Winifred - it's not like, bad, but it leads to a kinda low power ceiling? You use skills to cycle and oversucceed, but especially in Rogue, it's true that assets and events are how you get things done)

astral flower
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It's fine to have a lot as silas

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minh definitely wants to not overskill

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theres a lot of juicy seeker stuff she can tap into along with the ice picks scavenging combo

mortal hazel
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yeah

high kindle
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I absolutely don't trust arkhamdb

mortal hazel
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but, tl;dr for new players here: 6 skills is what I'd consider an absolute minimum

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(outside very specific Mystic and Rogue builds)

high kindle
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and I think decks should have 6-9 skills for most characters erring on more

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esp if your icons are otherwise bad

indigo cedar
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nice

mortal hazel
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and honestly point 1/2 of the video are kinda why: skills cost nothing to use, which is another way of saving money. Cantrips - cards that replace themselves -, which most investigators can easily get 4 of, are pure deck fuel

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If you succeed more reliably on four skill tests that you might otherwise fail on and draw a card to replace the skill you committed

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like

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yeah

high kindle
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I think too few skills and too many assets is the biggest first mistake I see often

mortal hazel
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yeah

glad bolt
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yeah cantrips are free

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stack your deck with any you expect to use

mortal hazel
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You can go 14/6 or 16/6 if you know exactly what you're doing

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But you have to know what you're doing

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And I can't think of any non-gimmick decks where I would go as low as 4 skills

glad bolt
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4 skills total is kinda ridiculous

mortal hazel
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yeah

glad bolt
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I have 9 in my innsmouth deck

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my edge of the earth deck... I ended with 10.

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I tend to start with like 8 skills and only go up

high kindle
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I have 8 on charlie, and he is asset tribal

mortal hazel
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I think, I want to be clear that I like the channel in general, it's the best I've seen for new players overall, covering what PBG does in half the time and a tenth the videos, so if you don't have an experienced mentor guiding you this channel is still kinda your best bet, but this part of this video in particular is a significant misstep

glad bolt
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he even admits he's going against the grain saying it

mortal hazel
glad bolt
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I mostly play rogue

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both those decks were trish decks

high kindle
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current leo is 10 skills

mortal hazel
glad bolt
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oh I see

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yeah

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I fucking love seeker skills

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put them all in my mouth nom nom

mortal hazel
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They're all-round amazing

glad bolt
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if you can fit yellow skills in your deck put them all in

mortal hazel
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I think Guardian and Survivor tend to have the best skills, but they're generally a lot more specialized

high kindle
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okay the only deck I have recently done that went really really low on skills

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was sefina

mortal hazel
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lol

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I've done a number of low-skill decks recently, but they've been pretty gimmicky, relying on absurd economic tricks and skill pumps that new players should probably avoid anyway (players in general should avoid going infinite as Wendy)

high kindle
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and thats because she was do a few big checks and spent more actions other things

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and like

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I was a crystaliser deck

mortal hazel
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yup yup

high kindle
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so my 21 events were skills

mortal hazel
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so every event in your - yeah

high kindle
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its also worth noting that lucky and try and try again are basically skills for deck construction

mortal hazel
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okay, looking through most of my decks, I have like, three decks that went below 6 skills:
a) one was a Wendy deck that went infinite and so (after a very awkward first six rounds) would substitute skills with pumping her stats to 20 or so with money (and also she has an in-built ability that makes tests more reliable)
b) one was a Standard-difficulty gimmick deck that did nothing except fight
c) one was a Jacqueline deck that started with 6 skills and went down over time (Mystics have worse skills than other classes and tend to need them less as they gain XP, and Jacqueline is pure mystic and also has an in-built ability that makes tests more reliable)

high kindle
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pure mystics can get away with it yeah

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but you really have to work for it and its part of what makes them weird

mortal hazel
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oh d) a Gloria deck, another Mystic, but she broke the game over her knees trivially and never needed to take tests she didn't want to take

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yeah

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skills are amazing

high kindle
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in the opposite direction

mortal hazel
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this is the secret that is obvious to people who have played competitive card game or been taught by people who do, and thus appreciate the raw economic efficiency of them

high kindle
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easily the most powerful deck I have played in recent times

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had 15

mortal hazel
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Oo? Which one was that?

high kindle
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Silas

mortal hazel
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Oh right lmao yeah

high kindle
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it started with 17

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oh yeah also take heart doesn't count as a skill, so I'll say 15 at the start and 14 final version

mortal hazel
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And when you cycle your deck three times per game, skills start looking an awful lot like non-exhausting assets

high kindle
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silas is absurdly juiced

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tbh

mortal hazel
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yup yup

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would be great without Unrelenting

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With Unrelenting, uh

high kindle
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this man cannot and will not ever relent

mortal hazel
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I commit, I draw two, I uncommit, I commit again

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witness me

high kindle
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wait you can seal bless

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lmao

mortal hazel
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yup

high kindle
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great I can not spend the blesses while never failing

mortal hazel
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... I say "yup" but it's not like I ever consciously processed that before either

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yeah lol

high kindle
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honestly

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pretty much all the skill investigators are extremely powerful

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Silas, amanda, norman, winnie, minh

mortal hazel
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yup yup

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And all of them in different ways. Kinda interesting to think about.

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Skills are great by default and then like, if you add either the ability to reuse them or gain extra utility from them in some other way, they just kinda shoot through the roof

high kindle
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the common feature is that skills are free and they all go through their deck fast

mortal hazel
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yeah

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(obligatory caveat: Watch This can cost you up to three resources. it is also far more likely to give you three.)

tough owl
astral flower
mortal hazel
astral flower
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I was being taught how to play and I'm like "sorry is this card a 0 mana draw 1 with upside? what's the catch"

tough owl
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wait, hmm

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I think Jenny was Jenny in that campaign?

mortal hazel
astral flower
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yeah haha

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i know that now

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but it seemed so busted to me at the time

mortal hazel
astral flower
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anyway i will say that it's more justifiable to be a little light on skills if you are playing on easy or standard difficulties because the icons matter less, but you should definitely at least still run the cantrip cycle

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like it's free

mortal hazel
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right, but it builds bad habits to go light

astral flower
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you're just running less cards in your deck basically

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true!

high kindle
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I mean its justifiable in that like

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if you play on a lower difficulty you can get away with more

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it doesn't make it correct it just means you get punished less

mortal hazel
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yeah

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like, I know the game is played more often on Standard than any other difficulty, and I don't wanna be like, elitist, but I think Hard is kinda still where it's at, because there you need to build and pilot very well and are rewarded for doing so, but you can still pass basically every skill test if you build reasonably for it. You're not forced to break the game or build around ignoring its core mechanics (or treat it as a roguelike).

tough owl
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so not when we were filling the bag with blesses

mortal hazel
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well

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Amanda admittedly doesn't entirely care about passing tests when she throws on the Unrelenting

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it's more of a side-benefit

high kindle
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it used to be a bit more common but people skip it these days

mortal hazel
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yeah I kinda always dither between Steadfast and Guts and Take the Initiative in Guardian. They're all great at their job, and overlap significantly, but all have little twists to them. Guts is always two icons and gives draw. TTI is (nearly) always three icons in Mythos but falls flat against Frozen in Fear and similar. Steadfast is 3 willpower or combat - if you haven't taken too many hits.

high kindle
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I have 2x guts on leo

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they all have their place

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though steadfast got a bit worse with ItToI

mortal hazel
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but always gotta have at least two copies of one of 'em

astral flower
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Anyway, here are the skills I automatically put into my deck at level 1.
Perception, Overpower, Manual Dexterity, Guts - depending on what your main stat is

Seeker: Deduction, Perception, Eureka
Rogue: Watch This, Quick Thinking
Guardian: Daring, Steadfast/Take the Initiative, Vicious Blow
Mystic: Fearless, Promise of Power
Survivor: Resourceful, Take Heart

These are like the easy gimme, obviously you wanna take these cards skills in pretty much every deck (at least for me). It's okay to not take these skills, but you should have a reason why. Like you must be able to sit down and give a reasoned explanation for why you don't have the skill because of how busted they are.

On top of these skills (keeping in mind that many investigators can take level 0 skills from more than one class), you'll have skills that are gimmes for your specific deck - for example if you have a Survivor deck with few or no items then Able Bodied is obviously a great card, Cunning makes sense if you're running a big money deck, etc.

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Between all that put together, it's pretty easy to find 4-5 different skills that you're more than happy to put in your deck, which is 8-10 cards

mortal hazel
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Mystic skips Enraptured most of the time fwiw

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It's an intellect test

high kindle
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yeah I agree other than enraptured

astral flower
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oh, uh, I mixed it up

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with the one that replenishes charges

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there's a mystic version that replenishes it

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and gives head, not book

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huh am I hallucinating

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I can't find it - maybe it's an XP card or something

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but yeah I'll edit the thing

mortal hazel
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In some Survivor decks I'll also skip Take Heart, but it is very good in any deck that takes Look What I Found or Live and Learn, which is a lot of them. Great in more decks than it isn't.

high kindle
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I think take heart goes in most survivor decks

mortal hazel
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Yeah, I don't think it's bad at all to put on a list on auto-includes

high kindle
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I'm big on inspiring presence

astral flower
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I didn't put that in autoinclude because there are some Guardians where you wouldn't run it

mortal hazel
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Inspiring Presence is lovely and I always hate when I feel forced to cut it for deckspace reasons, haha

astral flower
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but I nearly put it on

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Inspiring Presence is very nearly an autoinclude and you should strongly consider it if you run Beat Cop and/or Guard Dog

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just for those alone it's quite good, if you run more allies than that it becomes even better

high kindle
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I take it and no copies of steadfast or take the initative on leo

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but it is a bit specific

mortal hazel
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Inspiring Presence is like... it kinda ties in to two other very important things, which is like. Allies are good. soak is good. Inspiring presence helps with both! Costlessly!

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Putting it in your deck encourages and rewards good deckbuilding habits

high kindle
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its in many respects vicious blow 3-4 in beatcop II decks

mortal hazel
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yeah

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which is most Guardian decks, by default, haha

astral flower
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again, it's okay to skip autoincludes if you can sit down and explain why

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on leo you can sit down and be like "look I have a billion soak, its ok for me to get hit by rotties"

high kindle
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I take guts because I want to avoid things like frozen in fear

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and I need the draw and ability to give it to an ally more than the symbol of take the initiative

astral flower
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I think FiF is one of the most punishing encounter cards of all time not named Ancient Evils

mortal hazel
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(And frozen in fear itself appears at least once in every campaign to date - for new players reading, it's important to note that the treacheries in the core box are very frequently reused, specifically because campaigns are built around the assumption that you only have that campaign and the core box)

astral flower
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it straight up imprisons you

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there's no counterplay, and you are always fucked for at least one turn

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if you are on a low willpower character you need to beg your friends for skill cards

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I put in 2 you handle this ones in every rogue deck specifically for FiF

mortal hazel
#

I think some fairly specific investigators can almost ignore it

astral flower
#

Yeah but you need to be one of those

mortal hazel
#

But those are the ones that have turns like "I tap pathfinder and investigate three times"

astral flower
#

for like an average investigator

mortal hazel
#

yeah

#

most people have to actually spend move actions and fight or evade things

astral flower
#

One card that I thought when I first started Arkham would be an autoinclude, but really isn't

#

is opportunist

#

I was like "oh, it's a free +1 to every test, and rogues want to oversucceed anyway"

#

but it turns out that it's not free when you get the chaos bag throwing curse into -5 elder things or straight up autofails at you

high kindle
#

you can also use orphic theory, otherworld codex and alter fate as actual counterplay

astral flower
#

Yeah

#

you can

#

you can also ward it or you handle this one it etc.

#

anyway a skill I think needs more love is Plan of Action

#

it is a good skill, it is fun, and it is skill testing/expressive

#

but hmm

high kindle
#

the awkward bit of opportunist

astral flower
#

it competes with a lot

high kindle
#

is that like

#

if you are doing the check enough up for it to be safe

#

it doesn't add much

#

if not, its risky

mortal hazel
#

I think it's pretty Winifred-specific yeah

astral flower
#

It's hard to be better than Deduction, Perception, Eureka, and then a lot of seekers get splashes from other classes, so you might be competing with a randomly chucked in promise of power or take heart as well.

#

So PoA gets cut a lot

#

for deck space reasons

high kindle
#

yeah the seeker skill pool is so juiced

astral flower
#

But like in a world where idk, they never printed eureka or whatever, I think I would end up playing PoA a lot and thinking it was good

mortal hazel
#

Like, opportunist still helps with oversuccess on other investigators and most rogues really like oversuccess, but it's not enough, on its own, to be worth the deckspace. Winifred, of course, can use it to very consistently get draw (and it's why I think Winifred generally ought to have have less skills than you'd expect, especially compared to other skill investigators like Silas)

high kindle
#

I have played it a couple of times, and its not bad but you are right the other options are so good

astral flower
#

I like how your first actions are going to be anti treachery or evading an enemy as a seeker, so it gives you willpower/evade for the first action, then the second is generically good, then the third is for investigating which is often your last action

#

I really like the design ❤️

mortal hazel
astral flower
#

I haven't seen anyone else do this, but I like putting Analysis in Ancient Stone/Higher Education seeker decks

#

It guards against the autofail on a big investment investigate, obviously, but it also just helps you get more clues by shuffling away a big -X token

mortal hazel
#

I think that one's pretty common, though somewhat less so for the fact that Daisy has better options for that and she's the Seeker you've seen the most :P

astral flower
#

helping you get a 0 or -1 so you get a billion clues

#

Nah, I mean just random decks I saw on MB and stuff

#

I understand why Daisy doesn't do it

#

(and I ended up not even running Ancient Stone on daisy myself)

#

And the good thing about analysis is that if you mulligan a -5 or whatever odds are you get back the clue you spent

#

it's really good

tough owl
#

which one is ancient stone?

astral flower
#

It's one of the "unidentified" cards

#

it can upgrade to a card that lets you make an investigate check and you get extra clues for oversucceeding with it

high kindle
#

Analysis is pretty damn good for big all in strategies

astral flower
#

Higher Education is a permanent that lets you spend resources for more book infinitely

mortal hazel
#

Guiding Stones, you mean

astral flower
#

So the combo is just to rack up lots of resources with the usual seeker bullshit (milan, drawing a ton + the card that gives you resources when you draw, etc.)

mortal hazel
#

Archaic Glyphs

astral flower
#

Yeah sorry Guiding Stones

#

sighs I always mix them up

mortal hazel
#

yeah xd

astral flower
#

it's not my fault they're all named generic indiana jones artifact

#

anyway yeah the combo is just to get like +10 book and the investigate and get 6 clues in one action

#

obviously you want to guard against the autofail for that

mortal hazel
#

tfw when you make a mistake so often you keep making it out of habit. i've been there

#

also c.f. aneta calling Armored Core Ace Combat

high kindle
#

I honestly like the brute force // sharp vision pair

tough owl
#

ah, one of the other shiny rocks

#

I asked about No Stone Unturned recently so the shiny rock cards are on my mind

high kindle
#

they are like uh, spectral razor

#

or pilfer or etc

#

but free

mortal hazel
#

there's like

#

20 of them with strictly synonymous names that do different things

mortal hazel
#

and "basic investigate" is really not a big ask for most investigators

#

(and even when it is, 3 SkillIntellect icons is a lot)

astral flower
#

In LOR there's currently two meta cards that both go in the same deck, cost 3 mana, and deal a moderate amount of damage (often exactly 3 damage) to a creature

#

They're called Divine Whirlwind and Howling Gale

mortal hazel
#

lmao

astral flower
#

take a guess how often I mix them up

mortal hazel
#

often

astral flower
#

yeah...

high kindle
#

also the dauntless spirit, occult theory etc cycle

#

are really really strong on some investigators

astral flower
#

(also I think the art is just really lazy honestly, they look nearly the same)

mortal hazel
high kindle
#

dauntless is still imo alone the reason I prefer survivor tony

mortal hazel
#

yeah, I think that's valid

astral flower
#

I have seen a lot of sharp vision and it has impressed me. I haven't seen much brute force but that's because the survivors I've seen that deal with monsters either prefer to evade them, or prefer to attack them with a weapon for the stat boost

#

if brute force was in guardian it would be busted as hell

mortal hazel
#

Brute Force is potentially a very funny combo with Ice Pick

astral flower
#

basically 0 cost spectral razor

high kindle
#

its in tony

glad bolt
#

Very small catch

#

And until you get that specific roll it's a dead draw

mortal hazel
tough owl
# high kindle are really really strong on some investigators

yeah, I was upgrading my dad's EotE Daniela deck, and I didn't fully comprehend how much it was until he committed it to something
(maybe redundant on her? dunno, my family decks are a little less optimized/though out than when I play online)

astral flower
#

tony is a survivor?

glad bolt
#

But yeah it's busted good

mortal hazel
#

Rather just have an extra weapon usually

mortal hazel
high kindle
#

he is a rogue with a guardians statline and abilities

astral flower
#

doesn't it deal 1 more damage than monster slayer?

#

wait then how does he take survivor

#

does he versatile it in or

tough owl
#

subclass chosen

mortal hazel
#

and skills/events 0-1 from Guardian, Survivor or Seeker

astral flower
#

ah!

tough owl
#

chooses guardian/seeker/survivor

astral flower
#

I forgot he could choose a subclass

high kindle
#

guardian is the "obvious" choice

#

and it has good cards

tough owl
#

gets 0-1 events and skills
not getting the assets is throwing me off in my family SK campaign

mortal hazel
#

Guardian is kinda the obvious choice because of stuff like On the Hunt (less so now with Kicking the Hornet's Nest), Vicious Blow and Daring

high kindle
#

but I'm a big survivor advocate

mortal hazel
#

But Survivor sure has its appeals and charms

#

yeah

tough owl
#

consider though: blue

mortal hazel
#

and rogue/survivor is kinda the spiciest combo in the game

tough owl
#

(i am eternally guardian-brained)

mortal hazel
#

there's a reason two of the three main representatives of that combo are so weird and gimmicky (while Bob is just... really good)

high kindle
#

I mean tony is when you want to play a guardian not in blue

#

tbh

astral flower
#

if I want to play a guardian not in blue I'll play yorick

tough owl
#

who's the other survivor/rogue?
I know Wendy

astral flower
#

bob, tony, wendy?

mortal hazel
#

turns out when you take the strongest but least reliable cardpool and put it together with the most reliable class, you get fun stuff

high kindle
#

yorick has blue

mortal hazel
astral flower
#

When I was making a list of things I wanted my bob deck to accomplish, "abusing survivor/rogue together" was on the list

mortal hazel
#

Like, half the reason Preston is at all balanced is that he has a hard time really exploiting Scavenging (2) access. And also that he lacks access to half the rogue cardpool. And no good weapons outside fire axe, which demands a Dark Horse archetype (and is still at absolute peak performance a 2-damage weapon).

astral flower
#

Also he starts with stats of 1

#

which I think is important!

mortal hazel
#

(Seeker/Survivor is very funny for very similar reasons and not coincidentally both Minh and Darrel are incredibly strong. Minh in particular is a classic example of someone who can shatter the game if you try.)

#

yup

#

Both Rogue and Survivor have a lot of ways of overcoming low base stats

#

But starting with 1 is still really awkward.

astral flower
#

They still make you put at least a bit of effort into getting to where everyone else starts with

#

So it is a handicap

#

Darrel really abuses survivor recursion stuff

#

and I think it's really good how keepsake just blanks his weakness

#

oh uh

#

going back to the skills discussion

#

i think an underrated part of skills is how you can help your team with them

#

i know that is like level 1 how to use skills but it has a lot of hidden support power

high kindle
#

yeah sometimes you have to have your team pass some checks

astral flower
#

i have gotten through scenarios where like my draw bricked and half the checks i made were helped by a teammate and that turned me from a literal useless bot into like someone who did things

high kindle
#

so you are gonna put shit in, so you want it to be good for that

astral flower
#

we talked about having mystics pass people promise of power as an out against FiF

mortal hazel
#

Right. Guts won't actually help Guardians reliably pass that critical frozen in fear test. Most will get to +3 at best, which isn't a guarantee even in standard.

astral flower
#

this is why I like wild icons

mortal hazel
#

But it does make it very easy for other investigators to push you over the threshold.

exotic robin
#

someone posted Springfield in the wild and I still wonder who thought the original version of that card was a good idea

#

4XP!

mortal hazel
#

Like, the really wild thing for me isn't that it was printed, per se, it's how early it was printed

#

... and I mean, there's only three investigators who could even theoretically use it in the original case of "I evaded an enemy" and one of them can't use guns and the other can't evade, he just uses allies that automatically disengage him from things and then he uses the rifle's taboo'd ability or uses an attached telescopic scope to shoot them from another location

#

And one of them is Mark

#

but this was printed in Dunwich

#

(And even in its modern incarnation this gun cannot be used to fight massive elites unless they're exhausted)

#

I still think it's kinda neat, in its taboo'd form, and maybe one day I'll build a sniper deck of some sort

#

Definitely one of the more interesting and balanced ways of playing Mark, even if it's possibly a bit of a flavor mismatch

#

Mmm. This sort of thing does make me a bit sad that Leo got the Guardian 0-5, Rogue 0-2 slot. A fight/evade Guardian/Rogue would be more predictable, but is that always a bad thing?

exotic robin
#

...I forgot that Tommy's ability does not have a limit on it

mortal hazel
#

lol

#

lmao

#

(i guess that's fair since you've been playing Yorick lately)

#

(kinda natural to expect them to have similar limitations)

astral flower
#

Just reading the card, my first thought was "if you're going to have that condition, it should be able to target enemies in connecting rooms"

#

Then I saw that was the taboo and was happy

mortal hazel
#

yeah. taboo'd it's genuinely a powerful, if somewhat situational card.

astral flower
#

If I had like, 2-3 teammates that can consistently evade and a backup weapon for when enemies spawned on my own character, I might take it?

#

It might still not be as good as just running a standard good gun

proven acorn
#

it just feels pretty rough at 4 XP

astral flower
#

But I'd look at it and be like "huh I can see why I'd take it and I wouldn't be embarassed by doing so"

#

Yeah 4XP is a lot sadly

#

It's hard to justify if I could spend 1 XP more and buy a flamethrower or something

mortal hazel
#

the issue is more, imo, what are you doing before you get the Springfield?

tough owl
#

brand of cthuga?

#

does guardian have a way to recharge that?

mortal hazel
#

I mean more, hmm, you're building a deck, it has to be functional before you get the Springfield

proven acorn
mortal hazel
#

Meaning probably you've got combat boosters or gun synergy early, or you have initially kinda unnecessary evasion tech or similar

tough owl
#

hmm

mortal hazel
#

I don't know how to put it, I'm just thinking of decks that'd have this and what it'd feel to play them at 0xp and what the route from there to the Springfield is

proven acorn
#

I was looking it up on ArkhamDB, and apparently the Springfield and Telescopic Sight stack
which is pretty funny, you can snipe someone two locations away
still not sure how good it is, but that is amusing at least

tough owl
#

unfortunately doesn't look like Telescopic Sight and Marksmanship stack

proven acorn
#

sitting in the middle of the map providing overwatch does sound kinda neat at least
though you'd still need some kind of sidearm for enemies that engage you

tough owl
#

brand, probably

proven acorn
#

definitely the easiest way, since its a free slot

astral flower
#

Then after the first scenario I'm like "hot damn, these people evade a lot. I'm getting a springfield to replace the machetes, and the brand can be used for the few enemies the spawn on me"

#

But it's awkward that your teammates are forced to commit an evade action

#

or well I guess you could directly blast the monsters without them evading if you feel up for it

#

Then after that you buy custom modifications and reload cards and stuff along with maybe a couple more fight boosters

#

and enchant weapon

exotic robin
#

okay, so looks like preview season starting soon

#

some kind of previews on the 27th and 31st, from content creators

low osprey
#

Why did they murder Power Word so much in the most recent taboo list?

tough owl
#

the ability to exhaust an enemy was out-competing Pete's Guitar

exotic robin
#

it seems so out of nowhere

#

Power Word mostly just seemed... okay? like yeah it's testless but it's a lot of setup and action tax for like... what seems like "okay" payoff

tough owl
#

huh
just realized the Parley test is to give the command, and not to attach it

exotic robin
#

yeah

#

I think they genuinely killed the card tbh?

#

or like

#

you need to be a Standard 5 SkillWillpower Mystic to make it work

#

and that feels like it defeats the purpose

low osprey
#

Yeah. And like, even if making it a test was something they felt was necessary, why uh, why so many other nerfs?

astral flower
#

I don't know if it was dominating playtests or what

#

I've never seen a deck that used it or a deck that would even be interested in it in any of my games

proven acorn
#

the concern was about when you have it upgraded mostly AIUI
and carry three enemies with you that you Exhaust and do stuff with for one action

astral flower
#

Yeah I know

#

But that doesn't seem overpowered to me either

#

for a card you have to invest that much XP in

proven acorn
#

shrug
I don't have the experience to judge it myself really, but it seemed pretty good at least
I do agree the taboo kinda killed it though

exotic robin
#

👀

exotic robin
#

two previews and parallel investigator

#

I'm wondering what the preview on the 27th is gonna be if they're previewing an investigator right after? it's also probably neither Hank or Kate?

mortal hazel
#

hmmm. One awkward thing about Arkham is definitely the desire to spoiling mechanical and story elements for various campaigns and such. I know I'm way more anti-spoiler than most and I'm kinda treating other people the way I'd like to be treated in that way, but it does mean I don't end up posting retrospectives so much on the way my sessions go

#

(And I could post retrospectives on the performance of my deck, but I've played like five gimmick decks in a row that are bizarre and unusal enough that I don't think new players would gain much from talking about them, though, hmm)

#

still, you know what, I might as well, I'm not doing anything more productive today, and y'all have heard about parallel investigators now due to all the buzz around Jim, so!

#

Roland Banks is the core Guardian/Seeker investigator. A very classic kind of protagonist in modern Lovecraft media, a trench-coat wearing detective who has a gun and also investigates things, right?

#

Parallel Roland is a very strange investigator. Mechanically inspired by some Netrunner Runner called Adam, the front of parallel Roland removes your ability to discover clues in exchange for picking from 3 out of 5 "directive" permanents to put in your deck. These all give you some kind of really significant ability in exchange for some really cumbersome restriction, encouraging you to push your deck in really specific direction. Once per scenario, you can flip a directive over, losing its restrictions but also its powers. (Turning in your badge, you might say.)

#

The parallel back is even stranger and in the physical tabletop you probably should not use it unless you have a full cardpool. You gain five bonus starting experience, but your deckbuilding is heavily restricted - you lose high-level Guardian access and completely lose Seeker access, but gain access to Insight and Tactic cards (usually events) from among all classes.

image.png
#

None of this really makes sense until you start looking at the directives, which is why I'm hesitant to discuss parallel Roland, because the rabbit hole goes pretty deep. I consider myself a pretty good player and I think building a good parallel Roland deck is really difficult, and to some extent it's something I've tried and failed to do in my most recent campaign.

#

so, anyway, let's look at the three directives I picked:

90026.png 90025.png 90028.png
#

so, to clarify, what we have here is: an investigator of the fight class who can only fight twice per round, an investigator who cannot play more than two cards per turn despite having access to a tonne of fast cards and cards that play multiple other cards, and an investigator who - and remember our discussion on skills a few days ago - often cannot commit cards to skill tests, especially during the mythos phase, which is when you would probably need them the most

#

My plan, on constructing this deck, essentially hinged around using two different cards as part of an engine that generated consistent clues and card draw and enemy management, plus a number of alternative methods of dealing with difficult tests (which never really panned out)

#

(Plus some other synergy cards like Alice Luxley that deal damage to an enemy if you discover a clue etc.)

#

Note that the upgraded decks contain some mild spoilers for the Innsmouth Conspiracy campaign

#

Now, some issues I ran into pretty quickly: the deck does not have an amazing economy. It can play many of its economic cards fast, but about half the resource-generating cards involve summoning an enemy from the encounter deck (in a deck that can't deal with enemies unless it's already spent a lot more resources than it starts with) and the other two cards just give two resources each.

#

This in turn makes everything else about the deck more awkward.

#

Another issue is a bit more subtle - the machete, of course, gets a lot worse if you have two enemies engaged with you, but this decks wants multiple handcuffed enemies engaged with it at all times. This was a pure brainfart on my part, easily fixed on a do-over.

#

In the longer run, my idea for defense against the mythos was having a lot of soak and then a combination of assets in play

#

This isn't necessarily a bad plan, but the other economic issues of the deck precluded this from being a reliable combo.

#

I still ended up with a baseline functional deck eventually, but while the deck can both fight and gather clues, it gathers clues worse than the other cluevers in the team, and it fights less reliably than the other fighters in the team.

#

The main role I ended up with was fighting and taking hits so that the team's Charlie Kane could devote his engine to getting clues instead, even if the Kane deck was a better fighter overall.

#

I think there are ways to make parallel Roland do interesting things, but I'll admit, I still haven't found a niche where you aren't better off playing Joe Diamond or the original Roland instead.

astral flower
#

I think it's a real shame that parallel Roland apparently sucks so much

#

I think he is very well designed and I am a big fan of characters that get [powerful unique ability] but have to follow [strict code of conduct]

mortal hazel
#

I don't think he's completely without virtues, and there are more things I'll end up trying to do with him at some point. Hemlock Vale looks like it might come with a lot of cool cards for him.

#

But losing access to Guardian 4-5 and Seeker 0-2 is a very big deal

#

(notably, Empirical Hypothesis gives you another method of gaining draw through enemy management...)

high kindle
#

I think parallel roland can definitely do powerful things

#

but its in a very clunky way

mortal hazel
#

It's hard to avoid having at least one directive that really messes with a build

#

Especially on higher difficulties. On standard you might be able to get away without committing skills or such

high kindle
#

yeah

astral flower
#

I think Seek the Truth was intended to be used with stuff like Field Agent

#

But like

#

I dunno it just ends up being better to play a proper investigator (or even a flex like Joe) and get the clues normally

#

I don't really want to be jumping through hoops just to be allowed to do my job

mortal hazel
#

Entirely possible, I think there's kinda two directions you can go there. Either combine it with Due Diligence and Red Tape and use fast investigate events, or, yeah, use Field Agents and other testless clues (Working a Hunch, Drawn to the Flame, Scene of the Crime etc.)

#

I'm kinda staring at cards now, trying to make the puzzle fit together, haha

astral flower
#

the "if an enemy is at your location" clause makes me think it's supposed to be used with scene of the crime

#

it even fits flavor wise

mortal hazel
#

One issue with Field Agents is that you don't really have a good way of powering them. Your only ways of healing them are Hallowed Mirror/Soothing Melodies, Kerosene (very clunky), and Inspiring Presence

astral flower
#

(that is a pretty brutal clause by the way - even if you are able to past the investigate check without committing skills, 99% of the time you aren't investigating until you kill the enemy on you first)

mortal hazel
#

yeah, that's why a lot of //Roland decks use Handcuffs. Arrest the enemy, engage them, carry them around for the rest of the scenario.

#

Incredibly elegant, in theory

astral flower
#

Oh yeah I don't think FA is actually good. It just seems to be clearly like, a card printed for him specifically to use, given the flavor fitting and the match between this directive and his UA

#

Like, what I'm saying is that the people in the dev room intended FA to be the Roland ally even though it's not good enough (hence "it's better to just play someone who doesn't have to jump through that hoop")

mortal hazel
#

I think FA is itself good, it's just got some unfortunate countersynergies.

#

Field Agent reliably discovers clues fast, thus can enable draw, skill commits (even in Mythos phase), possibly deal damage if you also have Alice Luxley, can theoretically help with investigating normally etc.

#

But you don't want to put a lot of skills in your deck if you can't reliably commit them, and Field Agent is at most a fragile 2-off in your deck. She competes for slots with Beat Cops and the usual array of good guardian allies. One of the directives is effectively an extra charisma, but at the cost of being unable to use allies for soak, which, if you put together a build where that doesn't matter, it still becomes more awkward to combine them with Hallowed Mirror.

astral flower
#

Competing with Beat Cop, Guard Dog, and Milan is such a brutal position to be in

mortal hazel
#

(And if you pick both the extra sanity and extra ally slot, your third directive is either the fast-play events or the draw-on-clues.)

#

Well, not Milan, in this case, since //back Roland doesn't get Seeker allies

#

And I think if you're doing //Roland you're probably doing both front and back

astral flower
#

Anyway, I think normal Roland has a similar problem. I haven't played him, I don't know if he's weaker specifically, but I've always felt like if I wanted to play a guy who can gun down enemies and flex investigate (and wasn't a Mystic), I would probably pick Joe Diamond. Who just seems like Roland except you get the dopamine rush of playing hunch gacha

astral flower
mortal hazel
#

Nah, original Roland has a lot of things going for him, and can generally be more adept and reliable at managing enemies than Joe. Joe can clue and fight, while Roland gets clues through fighting. I think that's an important distinction - it's mostly just Trish, Roland and (less significantly) Rita who hybridize two normally distinct activities through their investigator card in that way, and it impacts deckbuilding.

#

While Joe can make better use of Michael Leigh and draw into Vicious Blow more reliably and easily than Roland, Roland's access to Stick to the Plan, Enchant Weapon, higher levels of Custom Modification (and the ability to put both it and Ever Vigilant on Stick to the Plan), Girish etc. is pretty significant

#

Before Scarlet Keys I would've agreed that it was kinda tough to pick Roland over Joe (unless you were going straight for the flamethrower or Cyclopean Hammer), but Scarlet Keys gave Roland a lot of very nice toys.

#

Girish in general is an incredibly juiced card and IMO if he was in any other class, other than maybe mystic, he'd be a very easy first purchase in very nearly any deck. Kind of a testament to how strong Guardian allies are - and also how focused on fighting they tend to be - that Girish isn't an automatic first buy for all of them. Like. "Yeah, hi, I'd like a Something Worth Fighting For, True Grit and High Roller that other people can use and which heals itself on success and can be unexhausted with a 0xp skill, combined into a single card"

#

Like. Winning Arkham Horror tends to come down to either breaking the game open with a really silly combo, or to resilience, and Girish alone provides resilience to the teeth, and the possibility of passing nearly any truly vital skill test if combined with any other stat boosts or commits.

#

I've heard it said that Girish is what the most powerful cards in the game should look like, and I think I kinda agree.

high kindle
#

roland can also take a flamethrower

#

which is quite handy

mortal hazel
#

yeah

#

we usually end up avoiding the flamethrower because we're hipsters like that

#

but it sure does let 0-5 Guardians handle enemies in a way other classes really can't

high kindle
#

I think on people like roland its more okay

#

Girish is super good but I dunno

#

there are a LOT of good allies

mortal hazel
#

true

#

Granny Orne (3) lacks some of the soak and healing, but her statistical effect is similar (and can be used reactively)

#

Lola and Delilah are eternally excellent Rogue allies, not to mention Gene, oh, and here I notice the first drawback of using an American keyboard layout for better compatibility with indie games

#

Can't seem to figure out how to put the accent on the second e in Gene

#

And Chuck is amazing, and Seekers can fund so many things with Milan, Michael Leigh boosts Joe's damage output by a lot...

#

Still, Girish is pretty up there

exotic robin
#

the Guardian ally pool is just incredibly juiced tbh

mortal hazel
#

yeah

high kindle
#

Pete 2 is crazy good for 2xp and jessica is not bad

#

I'd say arcane initiate is pretty crazy good actually

mortal hazel
#

sometimes I worry that like. Guardian cards tend to be so individually powerful that giving the class good draw might be a problem, but at the same time, the class not having good draw is always kinda a problem. But it sure feels nice to play cards that are both fair and really impactful

#

yeah

#

it's definitely easy to find allies that do more specialized things than Girish

#

but idk in terms of like, sheer durability and the number of different problems he can solve, I think he's pretty up there?

high kindle
#

Dave had to be tabooed

#

Miss Doyle is super good and appears in a ton of decks

#

I think Girish is definitely very good

#

but I think good allies are pretty widespread

mortal hazel
#

that's fair, yeah

#

like, I don't think Girish is problematically good (I said some things kinda to that effect in a conversation about Carolyn elsewhere, but I think that's a very Carolyn-specific thing), so maybe I shouldn't have used the word "juiced", come to think of it

#

I think he's as strong as he should be? He's very strong but in a very fair way.

high kindle
#

yeah

#

I was just more responding to the would get snapped up in any colour

#

like I think he'd see play but they all have good options of their own too

mortal hazel
#

yeah, fair

high kindle
#

I think tbh he definitely shines in guardian

#

where the soak is needed, and the freeform pump lets them pass head checks

#

and saves them from frozen in fear and such

mortal hazel
#

where single cards that solve many problems are kinda exceptionally useful. a lot of other classes can have engines that kinda get them a whole lot of cards that may be less strong individually, but still fundamentally solve the same problems

#

Scavenging (2) in Survivor for endless soak, the various encounter deck management methods of the other classes, the intense draw of Rogues and Seekers and skill pumps which just let them get all the icons and soak they need etc.

#

And Mystics might like Girish but yeah, like you said, Arcane Initiates are just really necessary for most of them.

#

(And can get you healing spells)

#

though I've definitely had a number of Rogue decks where, at least momentarily, I might've wished I had Girish instead of any number of other allies

#

(Poor Gregory Gry definitely wishes Girish could take his place, so I'd stop putting him through a tumbledryer to get money out of him)

high kindle
#

also guardian tends to rely a bit less on engines

#

compared to other classes

mortal hazel
#

yeah

high kindle
#

and more on individually powerful cards

#

so things like I dunno

#

chuck

#

appear less

mortal hazel
#

it's a cool design space

#

I've pontificated a lot on whether it's fundamentally a design mistake, but, again, it is very nice to be able to put down one or two assets and say "I'm in the game"

#

Definitely makes for a contrast with those decks where I have like four assets down and can complain about how I'm barely functional

mortal hazel
# high kindle chuck

hmmm. I guess the closest thing Guardians really have to something like LCC, Chuck, Arcane Initiate, Scavenging, Milan, Empirical Hypothesis etc., all these really nice engine assets that other classes have... it's basically just Boxing Gloves and certain configurations of the Runic Axe, right? Which are very archetype-specific. Maybe the Thompson and Enchanted Blade upgrades, too, but they've all got costs associated with it, and it's notable how these are all mutually exclusive weapons.

#

If Relentless didn't discard when tapped, it might've been another one. (but then it'd be far too strong in Mark. and I guess that's the final engine card in Guardian. Mark. smh.)

high kindle
#

yeah I think its a cool design space

#

I think the axe is like

#

on the powerlevel of flamethrower at least

mortal hazel
#

yeah

#

possibly moreso in 2p

exotic robin
#

Guardian card huh

astral flower
#

It gives you two free actions if you use it to save a teammate

#

which is a lot of free actions

#

I don't know if just adding 1 XP to it really solves that issue, but at the same time I haven't felt like runic axe guardians have trivialized the campaign when they showed up

#

so maybe it is fine

astral flower
mortal hazel
#

The way it can be thought of as forcing Guardians into very restrictive builds and makes it so you have to be careful to make sure no Guardian gets much more draw than they already have

#

It's also a bit of a contrast with every other class - Guardians can't really build an engine that can channel its output into multiple different tasks the way other classes can

#

They have to specialize heavily in one thing to be consistently good at it, which is inevitably mainly fighting and tanking with maybe a bit of support. Those Guardians which diverge from that model are either very gimmicky (Carson), rely very heavily on the off-class access they do have (Carolyn), or are just awkward in general (Sister Mary)

astral flower
#

I haven't really felt restricted on Guardian builds, hmm

#

It's true that Guardians are like, pigeonholed into fighting but I wonder if that's a bad thing

#

It creates a strong class identity

#

Like maybe the world would be a better place if the devs have a rule that no Seeker is allowed to ever be good at fighting and they removed all the Seeker damage cards (like acidic ichor)

mortal hazel
#

Naw, I think it's kinda okay for every class to be able to do everything, as long as they do it in the right way

astral flower
#

FWIW I think it's fine to restrict design space in that way ("we can never give Guardians good draw, ever")

mortal hazel
#

The reason Seekers are broken isn't that they have Acidic Ichor, it's that they can pull I've Got a Plan into their hand every single round, or every other situational problem-solving card

astral flower
#

I don't necessarily think Acidic Ichor is broken more that like

#

On high level class identity reasons it makes sense to have them be bad at fighting

mortal hazel
#

I wouldn't even say that

#

I think it's okay for them to be very good at pulling out these powerful, clutch fight events... every once in a while

#

The issue is that their draw and economy is so good that there's no such thing as "every once in a while"

astral flower
#

Yeah

#

I guess like the issue with strong class identities is solo

#

Like if no guardians can do clueving well, ever

#

then you can't play guardians in true solo

#

same for seekers and fighting

mortal hazel
#

I guess that's part of it, though I don't mind so much, I don't think the game should really be designed for true solo at all (and by and large it isn't, tbh, as far as scenarios go)

#

But I think classes are more about how you do something than about whether you can do it, if it makes sense?

astral flower
#

Yeah, I see what you mean

mortal hazel
#

Like, take Rogues and Survivors. The problem they have is basically exactly the same, in that they are, conventionally, just way less competent than the other classes. (Ignoring Darrel and Tony.) They're no good at fighting or getting clues, by default

astral flower
#

I mean, I'm not super opposed to the current way of doing things, I just think it makes sense in a lot of ways

mortal hazel
#

But obviously Rogues and Survivors are both really good at fighting and getting clues, actually, but the way they do this is very different and this has very different implications for how you build and pilot them?

astral flower
#

I think it depends on the particular Rogue/Survivor you are playing

mortal hazel
#

Yeah, I'm definitely not sure in any of my opinions here, it's definitely the case that Guardians stick out in terms of how the entire class is designed

astral flower
#

Rogues tend to like get massive stat boosts in the form of "add your foot to your book" or stuff like high roller

mortal hazel
#

They're just completely lacking in engine assets, whereas every other class has a tonne of them.

astral flower
#

whereas Survivors don't get those boosts, or they're more conditional boosts (dark horse) and they tend to be more like

#

reduce difficulty, leaning a bit on off class stuff

#

to clueve at least

#

That's a very general rule though

#

Survivors also have more testless stuff

mortal hazel
#

yeah, all the rules are very general, and that's part of what I like

#

Each class is distinct and most investigators are very distinct within their own class, as well

#

(well. Mystics struggle a bit with investigator differentiation, and traditional monster-fighter Guardians also struggle a bit with this.)

astral flower
#

I actually worry that the game moves more towards investigator differentiation issues over time

mortal hazel
#

yeah

astral flower
#

The more cards you add to the game, the bigger the power curve is

mortal hazel
#

I honestly kinda hope that there's only two regular cycles left, maybe three, because I can't see how they can push beyond that without running into problems

astral flower
#

And eventually people will just be like

#

oh, [card] is just the best Guardian weapon

#

so every Guardian builds it

#

I've seen that happen in a lot of card games, despite very careful developer attention to avoid it

mortal hazel
#

yeah

astral flower
#

it's a huge thing in older magic formats

#

like in legacy most blue decks run the same suite of overpowered 1 cost spells

#

and FOW and stuff

#

I think they can keep adding cards to the game but they need to do a rotation at some point

pale jacinth
#

I guess the only way you can really avoid it is card pool limitations

#

Yeah

astral flower
#

(through the taboo list)

#

I mean people will be very upset and I know people who are very tilted if their favorite investigator gets rotated

#

but ultimately there has to be ways to make the game sustainable long term

pale jacinth
#

I wonder if there's just a way of formalising campaign level carpool restrictions

mortal hazel
#

yeah. there's some problems I don't really know how to solve. Amanda is genuinely a problem.

astral flower
#

the other option is to just be like "ok, the game is like skyrim now"

mortal hazel
#

And just taking away Amanda doesn't feel good.

#

Think we've had that particular discussion before, haha (though on another server)

astral flower
#

"you can definitely win/stomp everyone if you do the right thing, it's just up to you to play suboptimally so you can get a semblance of challenge"

mortal hazel
#

To some extent the game's definitely already like that

astral flower
#

yes

#

and it'll only get worse

#

I mean there's a reason that we don't play with flamethrowers, relentless on silas, gloria at all, etc.

mortal hazel
#

(Like, we win campaigns on hard difficulty going in without spoilers far more often than not, and we are usually not playing the strongest decks we could think of)

astral flower
#

I think Till doesn't like the "the game is just skyrim" approach because he thinks it goes against the idea of the game

mortal hazel
#

yeah, and I'd agree

astral flower
#

you are supposed to be little guys fighting against big scary monsters and are afraid of the dark

mortal hazel
#

to some extent we've already balance-patched it informally among us

astral flower
#

it's a little awkward if you're like "I only use 20% of my power so I don't kill cthluhu with my little finger"

astral flower
mortal hazel
#

We don't have a written personal taboo list but in practice we kinda have one

#

No Amanda, no Silas + Unrelenting, no Cyclopean Hammer, Flamethrower only in special circumstances, no Pendant of the Queen, definitely no Pendant of the Queen on Trish, and yeah, god, Gloria

astral flower
#

taboo'd pendant of the queen is fine if people aren't using sophist or similar to recharge it right?

#

if you play it completely fairly

#

and do the quest for just 3 charges

pale jacinth
#

The alternative I guess is just making some like
Absolutely super max difficultly campaigns in terms of what is thrown at you made around your assumption your deck has that level of tool, but that's a hard sell for the audience not at that level (e.g. me)

#

Especially when it has to itself be a product

astral flower
#

I think it's fine to play cyclopean hammer in our group after the nerf maybe

mortal hazel
astral flower
#

I haven't felt a lot of interest in doing so, though

#

also we have like, not soft banned mark exactly but i think there is a sentiment that you should be doing something offbeat with him if you play him

mortal hazel
astral flower
#

like I played a version that is restricted to only using guns

#

and I think till has some grenade build on him

mortal hazel
#

(though in practice some investigators definitely feel designed for a full cardpool - all the parallels, for example, and Charlie Kane)

#

yeah

astral flower
#

if they want to go down that route

pale jacinth
#

Yeah that's true and probably easier on every end

mortal hazel
#

One suggestion I've seen is that higher difficulty could be achieved simply through giving investigators more weaknesses, though, while that works in theory, in practice figuring out the balancing of that would be tricky.

#

Especially with some investigators feeling very much balanced around high draw. (Winifred being the obvious example.)

astral flower
#

yes

#

and then guardians become OP again because they don't have draw! 😛

#

i think like, frankly some of the signature weaknesses need to be redesigned

mortal hazel
#

(amanda etc. are not balanced around high draw, they just have it, and that's why the game breaks)

astral flower
#

I've talked about this but I don't like signature weaknesses where you don't interact with it

mortal hazel
#

oh for sure

#

signature weaknesses have been a bugbear of mine for a long time

astral flower
#

like it's there and then you just ignore it and do your thing and it's a minor pebble in your shoe but you don't really care

mortal hazel
#

I think some of them are too mild and some of them are too harsh

astral flower
#

I also don't like signature weaknesses where you draw it and it kills you on the spot

#

i'll turn a blind eye to ruined film since darrel is so strong

#

but it completely warps norman's deckbuilding

#

or was it harvey

#

i think it was norman

mortal hazel
#

It's a thorny design space, but e.g. I think Harvey's is definitely just bad design because it discourages you from doing a lot of interesting things your deck would otherwise be good at

#

Yeah

astral flower
#

i always mix those two up since they're the exact same person and there's a popular brand in Singapore called "Harvey Norman"

mortal hazel
#

Harvey's is the one that punishes big hand stuff

#

oh lol

#

damn

#

yeah, that'd do it

astral flower
#

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvey_Norman

Harvey Norman

Harvey Norman is a large Australian-based, multi-national retailer of furniture, bedding, computers, communications and consumer electrical products. It mainly operates as a franchise, with the main brand and all company-operated stores owned by ASX-listed Harvey Norman Holdings Limited. As of 2022, there are 304 company-owned and franchised sto...

mortal hazel
#

I used to mix up Finn and Skids a lot because of the short names, being Rogues, and high evasion

astral flower
#

the CEO tried to run for president

#

anyway I think ursula's weakness is what I think all signature weaknesses should be like

mortal hazel
#

yeah, I think that one's good

astral flower
#

it isn't a nothingburger, you have to do something to get rid of it, but also, it doesn't kill you instantly

#

it warps your play in subtle ways

mortal hazel
#

(Finn, incidentally, is an example of a truly obnoxious weakness)

astral flower
#

yeah, because finn is so overpowered he really needs to be knocked down a peg

mortal hazel
#

haha

#

He's honestly not bad

astral flower
#

this is the other issue, sometimes there are investigators that are themselves strong and then have nothing weaknesses (daisy)

#

and sometimes it's the other way around

mortal hazel
#

yeah

#

Amina

astral flower
#

yeah...

#

finn's weakness is really interesting

#

there is counterplay to it but the threat of drawing it kinda makes you play in weird ways

#

I kinda like it actually, although there are some situations where you Just Die

mortal hazel
#

I think it basically pushes you into being a bit of a very aggressive murderer

#

You can't afford to let anything live after you evade it

astral flower
#

i think perhaps it should not shuffle if it does nothing

#

nah that would just encourage him to spam draw on safe turns

mortal hazel
#

The shuffling is the issue yeah

astral flower
#

he will just like draw 20 cards on a turn where there are no enemies and get rid of it for free hmm

#

is that okay

#

it does compel him to play in a certain way but it's not like he hates drawing cards

#

i guess i dunno if i wanted to play finn I'd just play rita

mortal hazel
#

The issue is the Stars of Hyades-like effect

#

Where, say, you evade an enemy, draw 2, it's Red-Handed, the enemy you just evaded engages on you but doesn't move, you shuffle Red-Handed back into your deck

#

This becomes more and more of a problem as your deck gets thinner and thinner

pale jacinth
#

Speaking as an inexperienced new player, it feels like maybe there's a middle ground where it shuffles only if it actually did nothing, rather that if it didn't grab a hunter

mortal hazel
#

I think Finn has some very distinct charms from Rita - he's someone I'll definitely end up playing at some point, I think, though every time I've thought about it I've been hit by decision paralysis between him and Skids and parallel Skids

proven acorn
#

regular Skids doesn't really have any draw to me

#

he just seems a bit boring

mortal hazel
#

well, regular front Skids is sad

#

parallel front Skids can be cool with either back

proven acorn
#

ah the parralel front with regular back, yeah that's more reasonable

astral flower
#

regular front skids is so funny

pale jacinth
#

Assert dominance over the mythos by paying two resources to take a resource action

astral flower
#

skids: "if I pay 2 resources every turn I have 4 actions!"
daisy: "damn that's wild. i pay 2 resources for this OBoL at the start of the game and get 4 actions for the rest of the game"
stella: "y'all are paying resources? I get paid to get my fourth action!"

pale jacinth
#

Is there an easy way to see parallel investigators on Arkhamdb?

astral flower
#

yes

proven acorn
#

they are listed under Related Cards on the page of the gator

astral flower
#

check the related cards section

#

in this case the second one is parallel skids

proven acorn
#

you can only see it when you hover over though

astral flower
#

speaking of parallel investigators and arkham db

#

I'm trying to make a parallel jim deck

#

how do I get it to use parallel in the deckbuilder

pale jacinth
#

Huh that's a weird back (parallel skids)

proven acorn
#

I think he didn't get added yet

pale jacinth
#

Specifically the upgrade clause

proven acorn
proven acorn
exotic robin
#

idk, might be a while before they actually add him

#

I know some of the ArkhamDB devs are on MythosBusters so you could ask there?

tough owl
high kindle
#

I think playing around the big damage weaknesses can be interesting but deny existence kinda ruins it

#

I think balancing for really high power is interesting and there are some approaches I'd maybe take but it's hard to have a one size fits all because they are busted in different ways

astral flower
#

Not everyone has deny existence, though!

high kindle
#

Anyone can strictly, but it costs

#

Maybe I should try my hand at a balance patch

#

I think Gloria and Amanda are conceptually hard to fix

#

Though

mortal hazel
#

yeah, Amanda just kinda warps the power of skills in a way that even Daisy doesn't do with tomes.

#

Definitely interesting how Thrice-Damned Curiosity is damage rather than horror

high kindle
#

my tentative fix for amanda was to have her reaction be free once, then cost one resource each use

#

but I'm not sure how well it works

mortal hazel
#

yeah, it's tough, and might just encourage upgrading into Leadership (2) early so you can stock up on resources every now and then, or similar

high kindle
#

yeah there are options but it means she has to work for it at least

mortal hazel
#

yeah

exotic robin
#

maybe "get the skill effect on first success only"

mortal hazel
#

hmm

#

sorta like having a superior, built-in higher education, but with more of a need for it because of the low base stats

#

(and only clickable once per test, haha)

exotic robin
#

would also help if she like

#

had a weakness

#

like, Whispers should probably immediately replace the skill she has

high kindle
#

skill effect on first success works but it kinda does just strip out her actual interestingness too

mortal hazel
#

yeah

exotic robin
#

yeah, kinda makes her into Seeker Silas

#

I guess a resource cost would push her towards like, really explosive turns, but limit her a bunch outside of those

#

or cut down on action spam

mortal hazel
#

I did double check a rule, relevant to Finn and other evadey Rogues (but especially Finn, because of his weakness), and I'm pretty sure it's perfectly fine to evade an enemy, trigger the ReactionTrigger on Dirty Fighting, trigger the ReactionTrigger on the .25 Automatic (2), then trigger Pickpocketing (each has the same "after you evade" condition)

#

Won't prevent Caught Red-Handed from shuffling back into his deck if he draws it, which is still obnoxious, but at least the enemy you just exhausted won't re-ready and prevent Dirty Fighting from kicking in.

high kindle
#

thats handy

#

I do want to try dirty fighting finn sometime

#

and get owned by frozen in fear

mortal hazel
#

haha

mortal hazel
proven acorn
#

hmm

#

I really wonder how often you'd actually want to add a bunch of curses with this

#

I guess if you have Ritual Candles this makes curses a net benefit for one roll?

mortal hazel
#

mm

#

There's some pretty cute Curse cards in Mystic in general, but Mystic hasn't had many ways of adding curses to the bag

#

Seeker does, for some reason, which is what makes Luke probably overall the best Curse mystic (maybe alongside Jacqueline, but she hasn't really had any curse generation outside of Tempt Fate at all until now)

proven acorn
#

it does help the curse spells I guess
and maybe Paradoxical might become decent

low osprey
exotic robin
#

oh right

#

maybe "can't be committed unless it's under Amanda"

low osprey
#

Yeah, that might work

astral flower
#

I was thinking about running this as a fair mystic when your teammates are the ones with curse synergy

#

You put curses in the bag for them and ensure that you don't get screwed over by their curses on important tests

#

but I think that is too cute

#

But like, if your teammates are putting so many in that you are virtually guaranteed to draw at least one curse, this is effectively +3 to a check that also buffs your teammates' turns

#

It is immensely situational though

exotic robin
#

tbh I think this is basically support for the curse spells

#

since it makes Favor of the Moon + curse fishing really safe

#

as long as you don't pull the ChaosFail

astral flower
#

Yeah, obviously stuff like the curse Luke deck that grandar played would love this

mortal hazel
#

It's potentially big for Jacqueline since she has essentially no real curse generation on her own (outside of Tempt Fate), but is obviously pretty good at fishing for curse tokens and such

#

(blurse in general does make it harder to get rid of her weakness, and there's a few other countersynergies, but in general she's really good for blurse)

exotic robin
proven acorn
#

Lmao

proven acorn
#

this one seems pretty interesting

#

quite a few good Blessed/Cursed things to fit with this

high kindle
#

grift I think is gonna be great

#

reliquary has its place probably

mortal hazel
#

There's probably a fair number of Guardian/Mystic decks for it, though, awkwardly, it can't hold Enchant Weapon unless the base asset is blessed or cursed

astral flower
#

Reliquary helps with the arcane slot archetype

#

The one that cares about how many arcane slots you have

mortal hazel
#

ah, true

#

Eye of the Djinn, hmm

#

That feels relevant to at least a few builds. By which I mostly mean Preston, I guess, lets him have the Eye + an investigation tool + one other thing (Black Fan, a second investigation tool, a fire axe)

exotic robin
#

Reliquary is going to be funny if Guardian gets some good investigate hand slot cards

mortal hazel
#

definitely more reliable than Bandolier combos and takes up less space

mortal hazel
#

Oh, right, I finished my first run of the Innsmouth Conspiracy campaign today, meaning I've now officially played every official campaign all the way through and beaten it at least once

#

my overall verdict is that it's going to be mechanically my favorite or second-favorite campaign. It's got a lot going on, it's very big, it's a campaign that kinda wants you to have a pretty well-rounded party of resilient investigators, especially on Hard difficulty.

#

And honestly, in terms of average scenario quality, I'd rate Innsmouth the highest? Most campaigns have at least one scenario I feel kinda meh about or don't look forwards to

#

Innsmouth is very good from start to finish. The way we did the last two scenarios was a little bit weird and borked but that's a little bit on us.

wispy phoenix
#

I really like Innsmouth but what brings it down for me is ||a mechanically weak and overall unsatisfactory finale||

mortal hazel
#

I don't feel like it's theoretically that bad ||but we did end up skipping the first act when we probably shouldn't have and then the way things got set up, the most optimal thing to do was keep Dagon permanently evaded and hit him with twelve fight actions per turn against a difficulty of two because Trish Mapped the Area.||

#

I think there's some really interesting ways you could interact with ||the finale.|| The campaign as a whole kinda ||rewards the ability to attack, gain clues or evade at a distance or without engaging enemies, and the finale continues that theme with the Broods. But we just had no reason to go down to where presumably all the interesting stuff is, because Dagon was awake and coming at us due to an unfortunate series of autofails and -10 skulls in scenario 7.||

#

We missed a couple of flashbacks this run through and next time I'm definitely gonna plan ahead and try and make sure the group is strong enough to get them all.

#

also, huh, looking at it again, I wonder if having four investigators actually makes that scenario less interesting, because ||otherwise it's way easier to access the Lairs, and for things coming from the lairs to reach you.||

exotic robin
#

what the fuck

#

I guess it's non-Elite but damn

#

they talked about Elusive on the podcast

# 
Elusive
If a ready enemy with the elusive keyword attacks or is attacked, after that attack resolves, that enemy immediately disengages from all investigators, moves to a connecting location (with no investigators, if able), and exhausts. This effect occurs whether the enemy was engaged with the attacking investigator or not.```
exotic robin
proven acorn
#

Oh Zoey next?

#

Interesting, I kinda expected Rex to be the next one

astral flower
#

hopefully they can release Rex with a weakness that makes him actually recommendable to new players

#

(I don't like recommending Rex to new players because they get very upset when they autofail a big investigate they put a lot of resources into, and/or get super griefed by his weakness)

proven acorn
#

||Zoey seems decent, though I'm not sure about the new back

#

Does give you more bless access but I think you can mostly get by with just her default restrictions already

astral flower
#

You can choose to play the parallel front and the original back, fwiw

proven acorn
#

yeah I know

#

just not sure how useful the parallel back actually is

exotic robin
#

it gives her Dream Diary

#

and like

#

a lot of really good cards tbh

#

Grisly Totem, LCCs, Alter Fate, Eye of the Djinn, Eucatastrophe, Jacob Morrison are kinda the big highlights here I think

proven acorn
#

seems we got one of the identified versions of the Myconid

Ravenous Myconid
Level 4
Sensitive Strain
Asset
Creature. Science.
Researched. Limit 1 per deck.
[Fast] : Search your bonded cards for Uncanny Growth and add it to your hand. Limit once per round.
[Reaction] : When an investigator draws a non-weakness treachery card, if his location's shroud value is equal to or less than the growth on Ravenous Myconid: Cancel all of that card's effects and discard it. Remove all growth from Ravenous Myconid.

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tough owl
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ooooh

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love researched cards

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comboes well with your friendly neighborhood guardian breaching the door

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hmm, actually: how does this interact with shroud 0?

proven acorn
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as long as you can pay for the Uncanny Growth, it seems pretty good

proven acorn
tough owl
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hmmm

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so parallel pete is otherwise OP for including the words "You begin the game with Pete's Guitar in play" but that could be a fun way to kick down the door to make a safe nest for your team, then force an elder sign when you need to move on

mortal hazel
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yeah, I'm not entirely happy with this new Myconid, feels like power creep, I've talked about it a fair bit elsewhere

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Luckily, it only works on treacheries and not enemies

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Between that and being 4xp, it's not too much more egregious than a fast-drawing Daisy with a pair of upgraded Wards

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(Of course, a fast-drawing Daisy with a pair of upgraded Wards is already pretty egregious)

proven acorn
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It does seem like it could fairly easily void one treachery every round or every other round

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And it's not even limited to you or your location

astral flower
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I feel like giving the infinite ward power to everyone and not just Daisy is a big step up for seekers

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Like I can now do it as rex or joe or whatever

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I wrote on another server that I considered running this alongside upgraded maleson to really control the encounter deck

high kindle
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I don't think I like it for the game for similar reasons

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I agree it feels power crept

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and it also pulls warding more into seekr

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which is about the second most dangerous class to have it (after survivor)

mortal hazel
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Yeah. Also incentives like, double magnifying glasses and such even more, for reliable oversuccesses

astral flower
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Higher Education really needed a buff!

mortal hazel
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And magnifying glasses and such aren't necessarily a problem, it's just that the Myconid encourages and rewards the most boring Seeker builds even more