Hell I even love Pyotr
#World of Darkness
fathom haven
vast blaze
One of the Hunters used some power on my Gargoyle that makes him feel mortal
He's currently having an existential crisis about it because he has no memories of these sensations and they're completely alien to him
fathom haven
Ah, the tragedy of Gargoyles
mighty zephyr
What sounds better as a Deedname
"Controlled Burn"
"Bush Fire"
"Blood Mud"
fathom haven
Controlled Burn is metal as hell, and Blood Mud rocks
clear delta
The fireman smiles
vast blaze
...the fucking Lasombra engulfed everything in darkness and now everyone else can't do shit
Great move, really helping the whole team out here
vast blaze
If he sticks a knife in my back mid-fight I'm gonna eat him
fathom haven
Diablerie my beloved
fathom haven
Pretty much yeah
clear delta
Werewolf the forsaken with the spirit population
radiant marsh
Unless you fuck up and get Pure
dense vault
Werewolf: The Apocalypse
When all you have is a wolf all problems look like a deer. Luckily, wolves are shockingly versatile tools.
steel agate
Played my V5 game today; so it turns out that maybe leaving the plague victim necromancer under the care of a ghoul belonging to a Tzimisce who really wanted my character to use a ritual on said victim to communicate with a plague demon miiiiiiiight have been a bad idea 
fathom haven
steel agate
to be fair, this is almost entirely our Caitiff's fault; by the time the rest of our characters found out where he was stashing her it was too close to dawn to find alternative arrangements
on the plus side, our new Tremere roommate is a hell of a detective; between the two of us snooping about we could start an agency lol
fathom haven
Very good very good
Gargoyles haven't been introduced officially in 5e right? Just Gargoyle Ghouls?
steel agate
I saw a third party supplement for Gargoyles on Storyteller's Vault, but that's it; nothing official so far
craggy coyote
Well with Destiny 2 stopping, I'm now wondering how well Guardians could be implemented as a WOD Line comparable to Mummy. I want to see a vampire fight a man wiht a magic golden gun
fathom haven
I saw a third party supplement for Gargoyles on Storyteller's Vault, but that's ...
Damn :[
steel agate
I also do want to say regarding our coterie, that our reference photos make for a hilarious contrast between members:
Tradwife, 90's alt kid, Hipster, Dad
fathom haven
Being group dad is always the hardest
steel agate
(this also, funnily enough, appears to be roughly the order in which each of our characters were embraced, from oldest to youngest)
steel agate
Being group dad is always the hardest
he's having a real hard go of things right now
fathom haven
He shall learn in time, as all fathers should
steel agate
mostly from his own actions; he's the Caitiff that's fucked things up this badly
fathom haven
Oh damn, nevermind then
steel agate
I feel like there's a very fraught group meeting to be had next session about what the hell we're doing now, and how we're going to avoid having Dad burn for this at next dawn
vast blaze
There any good ways of concealing the Glowing Eyes flaw in Dark Ages?
Or is it just "go blind if you don't want anyone to see you have sicknasty glowing eyes"
fathom haven
What color do they glow?
vast blaze
Red, I guess
fathom haven
I was gonna say, if they were yellow, you could try and con people into thinking you're blessed
vast blaze
Hm, maybe
fathom haven
Man that would suck if you were a Salubri
vast blaze
...okay so
I might be making a Salubri
And I might be slightly considering Glowing Eyes
And I might hypothetically be trying to gauge how bad of an idea that combination is
heady kestrel
Or is it just "go blind if you don't want anyone to see you have sicknasty glowi...
Blindfold
Less violent, very aesthetically pleasing
vast blaze
Issue
heady kestrel
Or like
A big veil
vast blaze
Can't see shit
heady kestrel
Ur a vampire you can figure it out/hj
steel agate
our party is basically 3 vamps constantly switching on Auspex whenever we get to the scene of the crime (crimes may or may not have been committed as the results of our own actions)
mighty zephyr
Well with Destiny 2 stopping, I'm now wondering how well Guardians could be impl...
Depends on the bit you want
Deviant is the only one that can do "Literally cannot be killed"
craggy coyote
I mean guardians aren't in that faction
They're "Very specific method" to kill
but its more so the vibes
closest as is is the Imbued or Mummies
Maybe some of the fey and wizards
or a "benevolent" marauder
heady kestrel
I was assuming you were just thinking about a homebrew splat inspired by them
craggy coyote
That could be done too
heady kestrel
Rather than which splat they would scan to
craggy coyote
But I don't have the time for that rn
Its more so how I'd integrate something like guardians into the wider setting, or as an antagonist
grave gulch
would it be a interesting plot if you like Mauler twins a vampire into a mortal human body?
lets skip the how you do it for now 
fathom haven
I'd sure as hell say so, that sounds cool af
clear delta
clear delta
crimson horizon
Doing shenanigans
Spheres Involved, Matter 4, Prime 4, Spirit 3, Time 3
Base Diff 7/8 (7 for Coincidental, 8 for Vulgar)
Probable Modifiers
- +3 Godlike Feat (30 Successes)
- +2 Unfamiliar Instruments (Mathematics and Vessels)
- -2 Node Proximity
- -2 Hands of Daedalus
- -1 Redundant Instruments (Writings/Inscriptions/Runes, Gems/Stones/Minerals)
- -1 Personalized Instruments (Fucking Everything involved except the Maths)
- -1 Specialized Instruments (The Vessels and Cables)
- -1 Appropriate Resonance (The Node itself)
Probable Specialties - Matter, Complex Patterns
- Prime, Artifice
vast blaze
Chronicle plot idea
A bunch of weirdly hostile Gargoyles have started cropping up, and the Prince/Baron/Cardinal's sending out everyone in the city to try and subdue them and maybe figure out what in the fuck is going on
Investigations of the Gargoyles starts to reveal some unsettling things, like bar codes and IDs engraved onto their hides, and a weird uniformity among them all
Do a little digging and whoops, turns out Pentex got the recipe for Gargoyles from an enterprising Tremere and now they're pumping out an army of stony winged freaks
fathom haven
Here in a couple months, I shall officially go from Wilder to Grump
fathom haven
It looks like a flower to me
strong bronze
it is
drowsy fulcrum
So I have a question
fathom haven
Shoot
drowsy fulcrum
baseline VtM vampires are generally less gonzo than those of Netflix Castlevania and the Witcher, correct?
drowsy fulcrum
I admittedly mean mostly in terms of combat (and a bit in terms of magic)
And I bet Elders kind of
break that scaling comparison
But like
A non-Elder isn't going to be Alucard
fathom haven
Definitely depends on the generation of vamp
velvet sparrow
Definitely depends on the generation of vamp
Which is mostly synonymous with Elder status
velvet sparrow
A non-Elder isn't going to be Alucard
Yeah
marble sorrel
baseline VtM vampires are generally less gonzo than those of Netflix Castlevania...
Depends a lot on the clan in how gonzo they get. Sometimes you can have some Basic Dracula-ing but other times you'll have 'Oh yeah, my powerset includes Time Manipulation or Fleshwarping or LITERAL SATAN POWERS or Human Sacrifice Spiritualism or Racist Japanese Stereotype Honor Powers.'
(We do not speak about the Bushi Clan, who are somehow more 'written by a white guy in the 90s' stereotypical than the later hopping vampires Kindred of the East gave)
radiant marsh
Most of the really crazy shit is gated behind really obscure/rare Bloodlines, and/or having far more Generation than your average PC, though.
fathom haven
I will once again say
Nosferatu sweep
The only ones that would 100% would absolutely sweep EVERYTHING would be Higher Vampires from The Witcher, immune to sunlight and all the other vampire bs, they can only be killed by another High Vamp
At least in the games, in the books they couldn't be killed completely at all
marble sorrel
None of those do require extra generation though some of them can take less super common bloodlines, yeah (Though Time Manipulation is technically not a bloodline one, that's a main family one.)
radiant marsh
I mean specifically the stuff you can get up to with six-dot powers and above
vast blaze
Most of the really crazy shit is gated behind really obscure/rare Bloodlines, an...
Gargoyles my beloved
"Shit sucks? Just hit da bricks, literally."
marble sorrel
Oh yeah, just none of those are 6 dot+. Most of those are just descriptions of 1-3 dot uses.
vast blaze
Visceratika is such a busted discipline
fathom haven
I mean specifically the stuff you can get up to with six-dot powers and above
Flick my beloved
vast blaze
Invisibility and sensing everyone in a building and melding into rocks and free extra soak die and swimming through rocks
Such a varied discipline
It's so peak
fathom haven
And day sleep in the sun like a boss
radiant marsh
That sounds like quitter talk to me
vast blaze
Cause Visceratika is only a thing in modern nights, and NOBODY ever lets you play as a 7th gen in modern nights
radiant marsh
I think the highest I've gone in a modern game is...10th?
drowsy fulcrum
I am struggling to pick between Toreador, Ahrimanes, or a rabble Brujah
For this Dark Ages game set in the Eastern Roman Empire during the Komnenian Restoration
fathom haven
Cause Visceratika is only a thing in modern nights, and NOBODY ever lets you pla...
There's an extremely simple way to fix this AND get back at the Tremere at the same time
marble sorrel
...god, I forgot how fucking busted Kai (The Japanese Stereotype powers they wrote for Japanese Cainites were). Rank 1 is 'Spend 2 blood, ignore frenzy entirely', while the rank 2 is 'The entire potence discipline, just a bit less efficient and stacking with potence', rank 3 forces your clan weakness onto another character and rank 4 is Complete Immunity To Fire.
fathom haven
There's an extremely simple way to fix this AND get back at the Tremere at the s...
Diablerie btw I'm talking about diablerie
marble sorrel
(Then again, they turned up in Dark Alliance: Vancouver and that's...certainly a book of all time)
drowsy fulcrum
lol wtf
fathom haven
I am struggling to pick between Toreador, Ahrimanes, or a rabble Brujah
My go to is always Brujah
(actually it's Nosferatu but given the choices, Brujah)
fathom haven
I was gonna say
Nosferatu SHOULD be
I love my lads, they're overpowered if played right!
vast blaze
I think the highest I've gone in a modern game is...10th?
I tend to go 8th, though that's only because I enjoy the power fantasy of it
velvet sparrow
I like 8th partly for that and partly because I enjoy being forced into dealing with Elder Politics Bullshit
If you're the childe of the Prince everyone in the city already has an opinion of you and a plan to use you before you ever meet :)
vast blaze
Aye, that too
drowsy fulcrum
I am having perhaps the funniest problem fleshing out this character
I'm trying to figure out what 11th-century Eurasian culture would have like
the most hay made about being a skilled, refined swordsperson
which is simultaneously too vague and too specific because 'refined' is
vague as fuck and dependent entirely on cultural context
vast blaze
Hay made?
marble sorrel
I really hope for whatever version of Changeling they eventually go for in 5, they actually for once get an expert on Celtic Mythology involved.
drowsy fulcrum
I have decided, to contrast the Andalusian Trujah scholar
I am making a Karakhanid Toreador on the Path of Illumination
vast blaze
"Made it a big deal"
Aaaaaaah I see
I feel Japan might?
If nothing else than because of the existence of sword-saints
drowsy fulcrum
Yeah, but we're neonates in a game set in the Byzantine Empire so that's probably a tooooouuuuuch too far <xD
strong bronze
..i have an idea
that may be too dumb
drowsy fulcrum
What's the idea?
strong bronze
How stupid would it be
To have the main villain of a campaign be
A vampire who was a roman legionnaire
marble sorrel
Not that weird. You know, relatively.
drowsy fulcrum
Not that weird tbh
fathom haven
All the more reason to stake em and leave em for the sun
mighty zephyr
It would only be bad in that it might be a bit much for the average player group mechanically
2000+ year old vamps ain't nothing to fuck with
nimble gale
... note to self: ventrue who insists he wa sa roman legionairre. He was a mercenary in the holy roman empire.
strong bronze
It would only be bad in that it might be a bit much for the average player group...
i do think that could be a fun reveal
i like to make my villaisn disarmingly jovial and carefree,so it could be funny to have then surround the goofy horrid monster that they ahve been tracking down,then asking what their actual non obviously fake name is
and immediatelly hauling ass when they learn it was
sextus aurelius or something
timber talon
hey that could mean they are just from the 5th century or smth
still gonna kill you
but maybe won't break the laws of physics doing so
drowsy fulcrum
I am having such a hard time not including Alucard in my mental shortlist for this character's vibe <xD
Castlevania Alucard, to be clear lmao
drowsy fulcrum
Man
The math in Vampire is weird compared to Exalted
3 in a skill is mastery in it?
mighty zephyr
3 is "generally the most skilled person you'll ever meet in an average life"
craggy coyote
^
Medicine is the best example of this that I like to use
1 dot - basic first aid training.
2 dots - EMT, Nurse Practitioner
3 dots - MD, a solidified professional
4 Dots - MD in their specialty, or a very gifted MD
5 dots - Candidate for best in the country/world
5 dots + Spec - Best in the world, at their best field, Genuinely a Savant/Generational Talent
vast blaze
Are there any hard and fast "this is what happens during the apocalypse" lore bits
Or is it all left to individual interpretation
worthy sundial
i mean
the time of judgement books
strong bronze
So lower generations give you a higher floor for power
But the actual power comes from age to train the powers (or in how many other vamps who had that training you ate)
drowsy fulcrum
debating whether Talents or Knowledges should be our secondary
vast blaze
So lower generations give you a higher floor for power
But the actual power com...
Aye
A 5th-gen neonate is almost certainly going to get stomped by a 10th-gen elder unless said neonate has some really good disciplines and smarts on how to use em
vast blaze
i mean
the time of judgement books
...I forgor about that
marble sorrel
debating whether Talents or Knowledges should be our secondary
What's the goal/concept?
drowsy fulcrum
What's the goal/concept?
Well so far it's: Karakhanid student at the House of Wisdom Bismarcks so hard a Toreador goes 'that one' and bites her
And if what Bismarcking is needs an explanation: Bismarck attended law school, but spent so much time carousing and dueling and having sex he never attended class.
Now, this is the 11th century and in Baghdad, so
not really a lot of most of those things, given you couldn't drink alcohol and dueling over slights and rivalries wasn't really
A Notable Thing
iirc
marble sorrel
I could see Talents as the secondary, as that gives you a lot of both 'social' and also 'Sneaky Fucker'
worthy sundial
no u could drink alcohol
marble sorrel
And partying requires some amount of animal cunning to get away with it to such a degree.
drowsy fulcrum
We ended up picking that and going with dots in empathy, expression, and intimidation
worthy sundial
no u could drink alcohol
mostly illegally but like thats never stopped anyone
drowsy fulcrum
fffffair
We don't imagine this character was particularly devout
The main thing is
She was at like
The House of Wisdom
The Big Deal Religious Scholarship Place that wasn't Cordoba or Timbuktu
marble sorrel
Aininur, with some exp under her belt.
Despite Banu Haqim stereotypes, she's not exactly some Crazy Assassin in her expertise.
drowsy fulcrum
Hm
I sense I have made a somewhat amateurish stat distro
given the fuckin peaks and valleys of your sheet <XD
marble sorrel
Hahahah. You're mostly fine. Aininur's a bit powergamed in some ways but in others...less so.
Like she's done a lot of 5s and 1s but also notably kinda....has put her 5s and 1s in some pretty poor places.
Manipulation 1, Appearance 5 is not a powergamed 'useful social stat' setup. XD
As manipulation turns up a lot more places than appearance.
worthy sundial
*The House of Wisdom*
this is only semi-related but im banging at the gate walls rn cuz of this
marble sorrel
Her primary social tools are 1 dot in presence and this combo discipline:
Scalpel Tongue (Presence •, Celerity •)
System: Roll Wits + Empathy against a difficulty of 7. If the user of this power does not know his target well, difficulty is increased by one, due to not knowing what buttons to push to achieve the greatest verbal impact. The barbed comment stings the target into silence for one turn per success, or double that if the target is not a member of Clan Toreador. Spending one Willpower negates this effect.
<XD
What's the advantage that makes you able to taste food again, btw
marble sorrel
Eats Food
drowsy fulcrum
Is
Is that a shitpost?
I thought part of the curse was that food and drink taste of ash
marble sorrel
I think it's in the main V20 book but it's entirely compatible with dark ages.
Aininur has it. She's also got some...questionable choices...there.
drowsy fulcrum
Nice
Oh
The fun reason she's a House of Wisdom student
So far the only other player is an Andalusian Trujah
Who also possibly went there
marble sorrel
Very fun. What year is it for your game?
marble sorrel
Right. About a century before my game. Fun.
vast blaze
Oooooooooo fun
marble sorrel
"Had to escape all the Hopping Vampires and go over to the Normal Vampires."
grave gulch
hopping vampires made me think of Frog like Gangrels
i clearly do not know what you meant by "hopping" 
marble sorrel
There's a different type of vampire that's not exclusive to Asia but they've built up their support networks there so they're often seen as 'vampires from there'. They're not actually vampires but souls that returned to their dead body after spending some time in hell.
But they're undead and (often) drink blood so people think they're just a type of vampire.
marble sorrel
They're cosmologically tied more to Wraith than Vampire.
As a big part of their theme is 'afterlife is fucking broken, needs fixing'
high current
Jiangshi in Chinese mythology are reanimated corpses that, thanks to movies, are mostly known for jumping around; in folklore they're perfectly capable of running or, if they're powerful enough, flying
the real world inspiration btw is apparently, in order to get corpses of dead laborers home, there were 'corpse herders' who would truss up corpses on bamboo sticks and carry them back home to be buried, and since they only traveled at night to avoid crowds, and often wore bells and such to let people know they were coming(so they could avoid them), it lead to stories of corpses hopping around in the dark that eventually evolved to make them essentially vampires
mighty zephyr
surely there was a better way to carry them
high current
probably 
but that's the story
far as i can tell it may have mostly been because the corpse herders were cheap; people who had more money could afford a group of pallbearers to transport the body home, presumably in a coffin
hybrid dock
The math in Vampire is *weird* compared to Exalted
HAH yeah
drowsy fulcrum
lol
drowsy fulcrum
the chargen section says to roll a die to determine my starting blood pool
What Fuckin Die, Game
<XD
Like
A d10?
mighty zephyr
Yea
high current
if a wod game mentions a die, it's a d10, it doesnt use anything else ever
grave gulch
what if i die
vast blaze
Well that would be quite sad
fathom haven
Extremely sad
high current
i did that 
with a Tremere, because of course 
gotta have the ability to get my thaumaturgy shit off in one turn instead of needing to spend the blood points across multiple turns
mighty zephyr
And making our first character 7th-Gen
Is this for a game or just for fun?
drowsy fulcrum
G a e m
mighty zephyr
I would not suggest this for a first game
drowsy fulcrum
Fairrrrrr
vast blaze
Aye
fathom haven
This is like
The Fallout 4 Bloodlines mod, and this is essentially my Nagaraja
I was gonna go for their equivalent of a Brujah, but this one makes people explode after eating so many human corpses, which I thought was cool as hell
The mod is really neat
vast blaze
I ought to play that mod at some point
fathom haven
Sanguinaire, it's a lot more in-depth than I thought
hardy zealot
Our Boss is possibly going to be a Toreador Elder from China
Instead you got Toreador elder from Adrianople
because if I'm involved expect Toreadors ig
hardy zealot
I would not suggest this for a first game
Eh I don't think it'll be too much of an issue
mighty zephyr
Its definitely a friction point if its their first time i think
Lot of expectation to know things about the setting by default, skews the social and mechanical dynamic towards them, and makes it so their sire cant easily be a member of the plot
hardy zealot
ah see in this case the sire the one handing them assignments
Also you can be a 7th Gen neonate lmao
Like
mighty zephyr
I know you can
I dont think its a good idea though for a first time player
Is everyone going 7th?
hardy zealot
Eh
I don't think it'll be too much of an issue tbh
Still haven't found everyone I wanna use for it so I don't know yet, but I will adapt as things come
craggy coyote
Also related question, this is 20th yeah?
drowsy fulcrum
The other player afaik is like
8th gen?
Also we absorb setting knowledge like a sponge
vast blaze
Would a vampire be able to get away with being a renowned knight in the Dark Ages, or would the Silence of the Blood necessitate keeping oneself on the down-low in regards to martial prowess
mighty zephyr
It would probably be difficult to be a renowned knight who can't go out during the day
Not impossible but difficult
vast blaze
Aye, yeah
Maybe like
Renowned and beloved enough to overcome that issue?
"Look, I know he's likely a vampire, but he's a good sort and he saved my town, so I'm not gonna kick up a fuss"
...eh, no
Not in Christian Europe
marble sorrel
Depends on the location. Dark Ages is a much less 'single stance' place.
vast blaze
I know the Silence is particularly strict in England, so that's likely a no-go
Is there anywhere it's less strict at this point in time?
Besides Mongolia, anyway
marble sorrel
Eastern Europe is a lot less big there.
craggy coyote
Is there anywhere it's less strict at this point in time?
Anywhere the crusades are ongoing. As we see in VTM redemption, and many other lore bits, Crusaders weren't exactly complaining at having vampiric allies aid them, at least the more unscrupulous ones.
Ghouling the leaders of such crusades provided you food, access to political power, and a cover story for why you keep getting the night shift:
You're the bosses trusted advisor. So you're the one who makes sure nothing happens while he rests.
vast blaze
Makes sense
marble sorrel
...man, I'd forgotten that werewolves can just Outright Steal Spheres from a mage (Though with it costing 1 Gnosis/Turn, they won't keep it long)
nimble gale
Ragabash be like "Nice trick nerd, let me see"
high current
there's something comedic about the fact that stealing spheres costs 1 gnosis/turn, meanwhile nWoof dropped Gnosis and it's instead the power stat for nMage
Werewolf: [steals a Mage's sphere]
Mage: "Hey fuck you" [steals all of the Garous' Gnosis]
marble sorrel
I did like the dual power stat/the tension rage and Gnosis had with each other.
high current
Yeah, same
hardy zealot
To be entirely fair, gnosis as a concept makes a lot more sense for a mage breaking reality than a werewolf communing with spirits tbh?
but definitely having the dual power stats thing is neat.
marble sorrel
The tension was the big part of it for me. You've got two big power options but you can't use them both at the same time and they pull you in different directions.
hardy zealot
Yeeeee
I agree with that
Terminology thing
werewolf and terminology in general is... oh boy.
basically every other term in werewolf
marble sorrel
Ironically, one of the terms they did scrap in W5 is one of the ones I dearly loved.
Fianna. The Fianna was basicly a perfect name for a werewolf group, though I imagine one they picked entirely by accident. The Fianna have association with the existing werewolf legends of Ireland and notably - Are not a clan.
They're a warrior band that anyone could join
Which was great for the issue W5 was targeting of 'To be X werewolf clan, you need to be X nationality'
By just...making the Fianna what the Fianna were.
hardy zealot
yeah
Like I do have a broad issue with "yeah you need to be this specific ethnicity to belong to this group of shapeshifters" that's just fuckin weird man
and some of the terms like metis are... yeah you reeeally shouldn't have done that that's kinda fucked
marble sorrel
Oh yeah, there's a lot of fucked terms I am in no way unhappy are gone.
I just think that specific instance was actually one of the real bullseyes they had
hardy zealot
yeeeee
drowsy fulcrum
I am enjoying how my vampire's new lifestyle necessities such as 'the sun fucking hurts to look at and will kill you' can be explained by What She Does Anyway
"Gee Aizere, why're you sleeping during the day?"
"I spent last night partying, fighting, and flirting with people."
marble sorrel
I'll even slightly go to bat with W20's depiction of the Fianna as Constant Party Animals (Heh).
As that's...literally what they did mythologically.
It doesn't work as a tribe
but as a warrior band who are mostly interested in fighting, fucking and drinking? Congrats, you have described 'A Warrior Band'
That said: Writing them that way when also writing them as a tribe was a terrible idea.
The Fianna get away with that because they're a roaming pack of adventurers who are interested in glory and the next victory feast.
But Fianna as a Tribe...that ends up a bit more 'Offensive Irish Stereotype'
clear delta
Character idea for mage the awakening
Mage who keeps putting inner demons inside dolls
"I'm upset but can't deal with it rn, gonna put this in a doll"
"Better put my childhood trauma in a doll"
Cleaning out the rooms (phrase from disco elysium)
Thinking of a mage in that decided to disassemble and reassemble her personality bit by bit
Either by suppressing multiple parts of her personality to uncover over time, or summoning them out of herself as goetia to store
high current
i had a game where i played a mastigos and if it had gone on longer i was planning to get a cult going by summoning one of my goetia so it could pretend to be a demon/god/whatever
figuring out how to do that without sleeper witnesses causing paradox or dissonance kicking the goetia back into my mind or something was the part i hadnt gotten to yet; binding it to an object would have worked i guess 
i think i was trying to build up to taking Mystery Cult Influence
clear delta
i had a game where i played a mastigos and if it had gone on longer i was planni...
Oh, cool!
hardy zealot
That said: Writing them that way when also writing them as a *tribe* was a terri...
there's just a lot in the base premise of werewolf I admittedly dislike lmfao
and yeah, it's the same white wolf issue as we get with like some vtm clans where you end up with "ethnic stereotype clan 1" and "ethnic stereotype clan 2" and "ethnic stereotype clan 3"
My hot take is werewolves should still become werewolves instead of just "oh yeah you're born special"
fathom haven
I agree, not sure how they'd go about it that isn't just like, a werewolf movie, ya get bit etc, but I think you should become them
patent stirrupBOT
There is a lot of implications that "born werewolf" puts on WtA+WtF
It basically runs a "misunderstood teen" plot where your character was actually secretly important all along and above these people
But I get why it is there on a like, gameplay and story basis, even though I think some interesting commentary could have arisen from "werewolves are made, not born"
fathom haven
Isn't WTF a little better bc it's random? Not so much the selective breeding that WTA has
hardy zealot
that and also tbh the weird kinfolk breeding stock shit is just kind of uncomfortable
and seems to have a little too much "No no no it's actually not super crazy fucked up" sanewashing for my tastes lmao
orchid void
Cleaning out the rooms (phrase from disco elysium)
Thinking of a mage in that de...
there's descriptions of magistos keeping their geotia like a warden, i do think the idea of animating your geotia as Things That Advise You would make for a great Familiar!!!
patent stirrupBOT
I think the themes of indoctrination and the cycle of violence that garou society sets itself in could have hit harder in a lot of ways if you needed to be turned into one. More than just the simple tracking of "find the werewolf before first change", someone made an inherent decision to completely change your life, to turn you into a soldier for Gaia. There is someone to blame for destroying who you were, maybe you were even 'normal' beforehand, not weird or ostracized or sidelined for reasons you didn't understand. Do you mourn? Or do you accept the death of your previous self?
But this is WW we're talking about, "could" is doing heavy lifting here, and the WtA we have is what it is
clear delta
there's descriptions of magistos keeping their geotia like a warden, i do think ...
Yeah, and with matter for you can make the dolls into servant bodies for the goetia
Also using parts of yourself to haunt dolls is so thematic
Plus they become a peanut gallery
"I must consult my creepy dolls"
Greek chorus
radiant marsh
I thought WtF was semi-random in that WBs had a higher chance of going through a change, but it could theoretically happen to anybody
Or am I still 1e-brained
But then in 2e you can also spontaneously become Wolf-Blooded by a variety of means
I did like the nod to the classic myth
In that somebody who got hit by Lunacy could spontaneously become a Wolf-Blooded in rare circumstances. Which then also has a possibility of having an involuntary basically-Dalu transformation
But yeah
The only Uratha that are like ontologically committed to bloodline and the purity thereof are the Ivory Claws
And they're...You know...Objectively Evil.
mighty zephyr
Yeah WtF still kinda has bloodlines of werewolves cultivated through wolfbloods
However they arent required, theyre just a bonus for a stable pack or protectorate
And since werewolves have propagated since Neolithic times they show up anywhere
WtF still gives you purity renown for breeding but you also get it for upholding the litany
And theres no punishment for NOT having a child
clear delta
Wait you get renown for breeding?
mighty zephyr
Ya
You can get purity renown for taking a mate
Just the difference is that you dont get punished for NOT taking a mate like w20
fathom haven
Favorite WTF tribe?
clear delta
Hunters in darkness
mighty zephyr
Storm Lords or Bone Shadows
clear delta
Hunters in darkness
Be in touch with your home
radiant marsh
HiD, easily
fathom haven
I like to smack the ever loving shit out of things so Blood Talon Rahu is my go to
fathom haven
HiD, easily
Based
fathom haven
Hunters in darkness
Based as hell
clear delta
Ithaeur hunter in darkness
fathom haven
I'm either Rahu Storm Lord or Rahu Blood Talon
radiant marsh
HiD Irraka is usual Tribe/Auspice combo
Admittedly I'm an edgy binch and like the change in theming of New Moons from "Trickster Archetype" to "Scary Motherfucker"
fathom haven
Ain't nothing wrong with being slightly edgy, it's why I love Nosferatu so much in VTR, Nightmare is amazing
mighty zephyr
high current
the only time i ever got to play WtF i made a Cahalith Iron Master
favorite auspice/tribe though is probably Ithaer and Bone Shadows
crimson horizon
fiddling with the Sundered World Dark Era, this shit ROCKS
High Fantasy Stone Age Post-Apocalypse
high current
ye Sundered World got a lot of hype because its the closest we got to official explanations for a lot of mysteries in some of the game lines
worthy sundial
sundered world is the sword & sorcery era yeag
high current
like, full confirmation that the hosts are what's left of the Pangaeans, and kind of an explanation of what the vague shapes you can apparently see when crossing through the Gauntlet are(things that were in the Borderland when the sundering happened)
crimson horizon
im literally tryna prep a chronicle for it and most of my friends arent exactly taking it as seriously as id like because "heho cavemage"
fathom haven
Is that setting mage only?
radiant marsh
Mage and Werewolf
Also it's agricultural neolithic, so it's not exactly caveman
I also love the brief ominous mention of Irem
crimson horizon
Also it's agricultural neolithic, so it's not *exactly* caveman
that was my point in addition to these being loosely based around an actual culture that lived and died so we can play a funny game about wizards
they deserve their flowers
radiant marsh
It is such a cool setting though
crimson horizon
truly is
ive so many mystery ideas
ive already got a Themed Cabal of NPCs for the game
based around Hands
the first and most important human tool
they exclusively speak through Signing High Speech
"Mountain Palm" being an Altantean Ruin of a massive statue that got what's left of it after what happened in Time Before mostly swallowed by a mountain range, all that's left is the wrist and hand poking out
with these being the Chronicle's Main Themes
radiant marsh
It takes place in the late Neolithic
After the Fallen World was split from the Supernal, but before the death of Father Wolf and the rise of the Gauntlet
I forget what the exact date they give is, but like 6,000 years ago, ish
fathom haven
👀
Oh so this is Chronicles of Darkness
Neolithic werewolf game would be interesting 👀
fathom haven
I just want a game where I can be a White Howler
Even if I was trapped in time or something like that
Neolithic settings my beloved
mighty zephyr
I mean hey you can just Do That now in W5 since there's no "I am the last Scottish guy in existence somehow"
fathom haven
Yeah but like, is it really a White Howler? I enjoy their tribe book immensely, I think I'd wanna go for that vibe
mighty zephyr
Yes, you can be the chosen of Lion to found a new tribe
fathom haven
👀
mighty zephyr
you would have to jury rig a gift list yourself, but it's like
Far easier than to explain how you are the Last White Howler (ignore the other guys)
fathom haven
You could probably find a way to transfer the W20 gift list to W5 fairly easily
mighty zephyr
Probs
fathom haven
I really wanna play in a mix splat now
grave gulch
i looked up society of leopold and then i got this picture of a priest fisticuffing a vampire
does like...faith makes your punches hurt a vampire more
or is the guy just jacked
always thought about using them in my hunter games they feel like a good choice for human antagonists
spice abyss
You could always punch a vampire, it is an option that exists for humans in general.
marble sorrel
I know Chronicles faith powers let you set any weapon you used to a specific value.
So it wasn't super great for 'I have a greatsword'
But it was great for 'I'm gunna take a baseball bat or a chair or my fists to this monster'
As they clearly didn't want it to be 'This is a general damage buff' and more 'this gets you up to a reasonable level even if you don't have tools on hand'
strong bronze
i do think that could be a fun reveal
i like to make my villaisn disarmingly jo...
Surprisingly,against the right people,civis romanus sum is just as earth shaking a phrase as it was 2 millennia ago
crimson horizon
does like...faith makes your punches hurt a vampire more
True Faith does
True Faith let's you do a lot of stuff involving Willpower, which you can spend to get extra Successes on rolls
and you can WP pretty much ANY roll iirc?
patent stirrupBOT
Yeah and some of the books list the mericals true faith can do up to and including crushing someone under the repressed guilt of there actions (even works on Vamps wiht 0 Humanity)
mighty zephyr
Thats not true faith though the dude is just punching a vampire
strong bronze
Yeah if it was true faith he would probably be burning up
grave gulch
so he's just jacked
mighty zephyr
There is a lot of art of stanced Catholics
vast blaze
Thats not true faith though the dude is just punching a vampire
Naw, he's got True Faith in THESE HANDS
strong bronze
While statically unlikely,there ain't nothing that says you CANT beat a blank to death with a knuckle sandwich
mighty zephyr
You can it just takes a while
crimson horizon
im just imagining one of those videos of ppl punching down rotted trees with Minecraft Sounds edited in, but it's just some priest beating a vampire to death
strong bronze
Eventually they will botch the soak roll
Trust
crimson horizon
pray for a botch
vast blaze
im just imagining one of those videos of ppl punching down rotted trees with Min...
punch
zombie_injured.wav
punch
zombie_injured.wav
punch
zombie_injured.wav
crimson horizon
exactly
mighty zephyr
did a thing for my new Red Talon
actually hold on
need to add one more
There we go
craggy coyote
I see Billy and I know they yap
craggy coyote
I have no idea who galliard is
mighty zephyr
Galliard are the gibbous moons who are storytellers and singers
craggy coyote
I thought was the name of one of the inspirations whoops
drowsy fulcrum
https://i.imgur.com/zQx4we7.png
The Ghost of Pinkman
mighty zephyr
the haunting specter of jesse
marble sorrel
Yay, Aininur got one of her harder spirit bindings complete. Less due to 'difficulty to bind' (It's a lune) and more about when it needed to happen.
Eye of the Night - Level 2, Gnosis 5 - The Eye of the Night is an unusual fetish in that its effect changes from day to night. A small circular glass disk maybe 5 inches in diameter, the fetish is either bound with a sun-spirit at dusk, or a Lune just before dawn.
So 'sun spirit at dusk' was off the table
But the other option was possible and had Aininur going 'got to bind faster...but also respectfully since these are spirits and you shouldn't just manhandle them but definetly faster...'
As the sun started to rise.
fathom haven
https://i.imgur.com/zQx4we7.png
BILLY MY BELOVED
upper tulip
Part of me wonders how a VTM campaign that just flat out disallows Dominate would go
Would probbaly solve a lot of the powergamey problems.
mighty zephyr
Presence: A Discipline That Definitely Needs To Be Better
upper tulip
I'd probably just replace it with Presence in most purposes
Presence is actually cool.
mighty zephyr
Oh no I mean like
Presence is already better Dominate
It's not really nerfing the mechanical problem you're thinking of
fathom haven
You can use Presence for way more
mighty zephyr
Dominate isn't even overpowered, it's a very specific powerset that's also just easily countered
upper tulip
It's not really nerfing the mechanical problem you're thinking of
It's not really a mechanical problem weirdly.
mighty zephyr
You just said it was!
upper tulip
It's specifically the insane amount of arguments, and "I dominate this guy"
I don't know how to phrase
mighty zephyr
I mean yeah, "I (x) this guy" is how people deal with the game
upper tulip
the most promiment examples of powergaming I see in VTM games (sans V20) aren't even mechanical
they're social contract ones
They're primarily that of trying to brute force a problem by just going "yuhuh, I can totally dominate a guy, cause my vampire has cool eye powers"
But I digress.
it's really just me being picky.
fathom haven
Yeah but I get how exhausting that could get though
"All my problems can be solved by just using Dominate" can get really old, really fast
upper tulip
Dominate exists as a hammer that people try to turn into god's favorite multitool, and it causes so many arguments and pissfits over what it does and doesn't
Presence in my limited experience weirdly doesn't because it does actually have a pretty specific fantasy and mechanical interpretation
It happens to be a very good one, but it's not like people try to turn Fortitude into "I'm actually so tough I punch hard"
mighty zephyr
That's a power in 5th, hilariously
upper tulip
but that's a power explicitly.
mighty zephyr
Prowess Through Pain, kicks ass
upper tulip
Dominate's existence is the problem.
mighty zephyr
I don't see how it's a problem more than anything else in the game
fathom haven
It happens to be a very good one, but it's not like people try to turn Fortitude...
THAT'S WHAT POTENCE IS FOR
GAAAAH I HATE VENTRUE
upper tulip
I don't see how it's a problem more than anything else in the game
I don't even know why it is, but of the significant amount of arguments I've had with players and GMs in VTM games, it's almost always due to Dominate.
a statistically very skewed amount
mighty zephyr
I've never really ever seen Dominate become a problem in play for me specifically
So I'm not sure what problems could even arise
It's pretty specific about what it lets you do, and how to counter it
upper tulip
So I'm not sure what problems could even arise
the same one over and over, and one that seemingly won't quit
People just actively disregarding what it does
both GM and Player side
and turning it into "flat out true mind control"
Not in any way limited besides having to look at the person
marble sorrel
It happens to be a very good one, but it's not like people try to turn Fortitude...
That exists in V20, thought it takes a fair amount of investment (And potence is better).
upper tulip
ye
fathom haven
and turning it into "flat out true mind control"
Doesn't it only get to that when you hit like the highest level of it?
Or even elder level
upper tulip
Pretty much both.
mighty zephyr
Well like, if it's mortals then yeah
Mortals get fucked by Dominate, it's the best tool for dealing with them and allows like half the bullshit of Vampire Society to exist
But if it's kindred it's just
"woop, i'm one generation lower than you"
nimble gale
I've never seen dominate cause much trouble at the Tabletop, but I have seen it cause a ton of arguements in larp vtm
but that's just my personal experience with it
and I can see how it could with players who are, how to say
indelicate?
fathom haven
Oh gods I can't even imagine how bad it is in larp
mighty zephyr
I can't imagine any mind control works great at larp
upper tulip
I think that's my own personal dislike of it being "the one true mortal counter" and then being non-effective v vamps in turn fighting with how it's run so differently gm to gm
mighty zephyr
It's not "the one true mortal counter" it's the "easiest and most subtle"
the one true mortal counter is a gun
fathom haven
upper tulip
the one true mortal counter is a gun
to everything*
*with notable exceptions
fathom haven
"Think fast Lick"
Listen
Doesn't matter how supernatural you are
A shotgun blast to the face is gonna HURT
mighty zephyr
My thing is that WoD is a setting where people know the setting and can work out what people can do as easy as the players can
and that if you rely on something, people will actively counter it
if they know you use it
So if you're a Dominate Donny maybe the hunters don't run in guns blazing
maybe they just put a car bomb under your car
upper tulip
to everything*
*with notable exceptions
love you mummies and horrifying mage creations
craggy coyote
So if you're a Dominate Donny maybe the hunters don't run in guns blazing
Hell if you're a dominate Donny, the other vampires will end you
fathom haven
Technically Tzimisce horrifying creations too
craggy coyote
Clan Ventrue uses their diplomacy a lot and for a damn good reason
marble sorrel
A shotgun blast to the face is gonna HURT
Laughs in Banu Haqim Parry Bullets Magic
craggy coyote
relying on dominate to command loyalty is risking that a single failed roll just earns you an enemy for life
No vampire who realizes you've used mind control magic on them is going to let that slide
fathom haven
If I'm a Nossie and I find out you dominated me??
You're gonna wish you met final death
craggy coyote
Hell for all the ventrue's durability, all it takes is a gag in your mouth, and someone with a good brawl rating to end you
upper tulip
I deeply wanna run a Mummy game, but I know for my own purposes that I'd have to find an actual original rulebook to feel satisfied with that
craggy coyote
What's that... pharse from order of the stick
Power is power. A single discipline or spell slot alone isn't power, and anyone who thinks a single tool alone makes you powerful, is kind of a chump
fathom haven
||If I have high Animalism? I'm using ghouled parasites from my breeding pools to live in your body and give you hell every night of your life||
mighty zephyr
Hell for all the ventrue's durability, all it takes is a gag in your mouth, and ...
I think it's easier than that tbh
one pair of sunglasses or night vision goggles
craggy coyote
Oh I know
mighty zephyr
or a flashbang
craggy coyote
I'm just saying I see redditors going "dominate the brujah go away lmao"
it ain't that easy
marble sorrel
And god forbid (Heh) you run into a guy with true faith and he just no-sells it.
mighty zephyr
The Brujah comes back and throws a car at you
craggy coyote
FR
I need to run a game so I can just make a brujah who owns a junkyard
why?
Because anyone who pisses them off too much he has a car to throw at them
Tremere thinking they're safe from him via warding circles against cainites?
Congrats, a Pontiac Aztec with a cinder block is ramming through your door
or he just throws it through the roof
fathom haven
"Lotta junk around here, from metal scrap, cars...Even a few broken pieces of wood around here. And i know where EVERYTHING is here."
mighty zephyr
I should've gotten Beck to Potence 5
fathom haven
Potence 5 my beloved
craggy coyote
Well if you get reinvested into that server let me know what you get up to w/ it
mighty zephyr
I was always kinda waiting for you to call us back to duty tbh
mighty zephyr
oh yeah I get it
craggy coyote
also every time I tried investigating things... It kinda didn't go anywhere
mighty zephyr
I did see they overhauled the Sabbat?
craggy coyote
Maybe we just start our own fun though and say we're taking voer the mob by force
mighty zephyr
to maybe make them suck less?
craggy coyote
also... I still don't get why Sabbat are a playable faction on that server
mighty zephyr
I presume it's because the people in power enjoyed the Sabbat power fantasy
fathom haven
Bleh Sabbat
craggy coyote
That said yeah potence 5 funni
mighty zephyr
And by Potence 5 what I actually mean is Potence 14
craggy coyote
"I drink you" - Human blender with Exuberance, Brutal Feed, and Kindred Dueling 5
mighty zephyr
Because fuck 12
fathom haven
Diablerie speed run
limpid shoal
What?
craggy coyote
That combo specifically can theoretically let you fuck over almost any vampire wiht a single bite attack
Esp if your ST says being over H5 through being drunk like a smoothie causes torpor
though IIRC in V5 that does not occur raw
which feels weird
mighty zephyr
Wouldn't it?
I thought incapacitated through means other than fire or sunlight is torpor
craggy coyote
Yeah, Just gonna source my work though, because I do like to double check
mighty zephyr
Is a combo of Potence that gives you an effective Potence of 8, and then you double it for Feats of Strength
which means at potence 5 you are throwing Semi-Trucks
fathom haven
As it should be
craggy coyote
YEEEP. ITs amazing. No roll for if you can do it, just for accuracy. its a glorious thing, and I fear the Toreador twink who masters potence, And gets unerring aim (this will never happen in 90% of games ever but its funny to think about).
As for checking sources on how being nommed doesn't torpor you.
- feeding from other vampires pg 213 in corebook only notes you increase hunger, no torpor.
- Topror has 3 causes per page 223.
A) Attemtping to Wake forn the night at H5 and failing.
B) Full Agg tracker and not set on fire/ decapitated
C)Voluntary slep - AFAIK there are no other source books introducing rules that cause torpor if you are bitten for long enough, which feels like an oversight. Raw someone biting you at H5 might just do agg damage again through? IDK it just feels weird
mighty zephyr
I think it's fine, personally
Cuz to me I like the idea that if you ARE draining someone to death, you're killing them
craggy coyote
Probably
mighty zephyr
so you gotta do it via damage
craggy coyote
I'd assume the raw rule is ocne someone is H5 bites return to just doing agg
Since you can't increase the hungie further
upper tulip
Unerring Aim is one of the silliest V5 powers
craggy coyote
It really is
I had a pc with it and split second
i did some shit, if I passed rouse checks
upper tulip
It and the one 5 Celerity that makes you do stuff faster than the GM
My actual pick as underrated
Rush Job, from Celerity 2
craggy coyote
"What's your opening move?"
"2 in the eyes, 1 in the throat"
upper tulip
Being able to do just about anything skill related nigh instantly is so good
craggy coyote
Rush Job, from Celerity 2
Rush job isn't bad its problem is just that fleetness is goated
upper tulip
😔
craggy coyote
Better dodges, better stealth, better pickpocketing when you need it
being able to do 2 things at once is fun
fathom haven
I need to read up on V5 disciplines
craggy coyote
but being able to guarantee, or near guarantee you can do the thing you need is huge
upper tulip
For my ideal sort of "super detective" Banu Haqim
I'm a patent disliker of the "add blank to blank" powers even if they're all almost always good
upper tulip
What's your ideal Celerity 1/3 powers?
fathom haven
Brb, reading up on V5 Obfuscate
craggy coyote
What's your ideal Celerity 1/3 powers?
for combat or daily life
craggy coyote
If I do celerity I tend to be fighting, so Rapid reflexes, Fleetness, Blink/Weaving/Traversal tends to be my default for combat builds
Depends if I'm a brawl lad, a melee lad, or if I have other tricks to get in close
upper tulip
Your daily life choices then?
fathom haven
Animalism can be op holy crap
fathom haven
I'm frenzying? No, YOU'RE frenzying
mighty zephyr
I think the only one that's base lackluster is Protean
upper tulip
Unless you're gods unluckiest soldier and Oblivion just kills your humanity every session.
mighty zephyr
and that got a ton of support
mighty zephyr
It's fun!
upper tulip
Even if you have the v20 grognards screaming at the sky
fathom haven
I love V20 but V5 looks like it can be a lot of fun
Perhaps I will be lucky enough to play in a campaign soon, if my schedule lines up 🙏
vast blaze
Unless you're gods unluckiest soldier and Oblivion just kills your humanity ever...
Better Oblivion than Skyrim
hurhurhurhurhurhur
God that fucking sucks
fathom haven
Life has forced me to pause involvement in some pbps
I'm sorry to hear my friend
craggy coyote
eh if bar prep ain't what irl comes first means, I'm doing irl comes first wrong
high current
https://i.imgur.com/zQx4we7.png
Bart Curlish mentioned
crimson horizon
V5 has some fun changes, it's pretty cool lore wise (WE LOVE THE DESTRUCTION OF THE PYRAMID IN THIS HOUSE). Not my style of play tho
Imo WoD5 would have benefitted overall from taking Chronicles' XP and Beat system instead of going with the New Rating Times X stuff
rapid glacier
I think all the 5th Ed game lines suffer from bad xp systems, I don’t know a single table that hasn’t houseruled them in some form or fashion
marble sorrel
Still vaguely irked that H5 has nada on playing an Imbued and is just 'Hunters Hunted 5'
rapid glacier
They’ve got an edge for magic I think, you can kinda crowbar one back in
Maybe they’ll get them back as a lore sheet or something
marble sorrel
But then, Iki's favourite games are all ones that 5 doesn't seem to super like, so...I think I'm just kinda out of luck. XD
Iki: "I like Demon, Changeling, Mummy and Wraith and I like the Fianna in Werewolf and the Imbued in Hunter."
5e: "Oooh, yeah. You're not seeing shit."
rapid glacier
You really should give it a shot one day, you might be surprised
marble sorrel
...I have played 5.
...I'm not sure where 'the gameline doesn't support any of my favourite WoD things' went to 'I have not played 5'
Sorry, just a bit confused there Fahrenheit.
crimson horizon
I think all the 5th Ed game lines suffer from bad xp systems, I don’t know a sin...
I dislike WoDs XP System overall
5 makes an already bad thing worse when a better thing (Beats) is already there and they're literally copying CofDs homework already
rapid glacier
...I'm not sure where 'the gameline doesn't support any of my favourite WoD thin...
My bad, I think I just took away from the stuff you’ve talked about that you’ve sworn it off before taking a chance to play it
rapid glacier
5 makes an already bad thing worse when a better thing (Beats) is already there ...
They even have the beats system as an alternate XP method, it’s like one paragraph
marble sorrel
Nah, I've played it. I just think it's a bit...it's got a focus and that focus isn't the things I came to WoD for.
So it ends up not really being a game for me.
crimson horizon
I played 5, the ST ruined it for me and then I read more and dislike a lot of the more controversial game decisions
Fun lore tho
Lore sheets are cool
rapid glacier
That’s a shame, but bad STs almost ruined WoD for me back in the day until I got to run my own games, so I understand that
marble sorrel
My first experience with WoD was abominable. Now to be fair: I was being a snarky asshole but still, first experience with WoD being a LARP (After ironically playing Exalted before WoD) with a guy on a power trip was certainly an experience.
There was a person who made it their caine given duty to follow around all the newbies for their first session just spamming auspex on them until they won paper scissors rock and could 'confirm' you were not secretly a mage, werewolf, demon or whatever.
Despite the express rules being 'You're only allowed to make vampires for this'
rapid glacier
LARPs sound like the coolest shit put in the middle of the strangest minefield ever conceived
crimson horizon
My first experience with WoD was *abominable*. Now to be fair: I was being a sna...
Same here, my first game was literally
- WoD, All Splats all Editions
- CofD, All Splats all Editions
- Anime Homebrew
I was using V5 XP rates while the fucking werewolf and mage were using LARP XP RATES
rapid glacier
Oh god why
crimson horizon
"Vampires Suck"
rapid glacier
Yall been abused by bad STs, jesus
crimson horizon
Despite my "V5" character
Having NIHILISTICS
Y'know the discipline that only existed Pre-20th
rapid glacier
Man that game shouldn’t count that sounds abominable
crimson horizon
Yall been *abused* by bad STs, *jesus*
Tbf, the ST thought that was normal since the previous ST who left the group
Also did that for their first game
Generational ST Trauma if you will
rapid glacier
This would be like
Fuck I do t actually have a witty analogy here this sounds just miserable
crimson horizon
I've since become a massive rules stickler as a response
marble sorrel
LARPs sound like the coolest shit put in the middle of the strangest minefield e...
To be fair: After the second time I beat him in Paper Scissors Rock, I started being a pretty aggravating asshole myself. I went 'Oh, this fucker isn't stopping until he wins'.
And when he asked 'what do I see', I told him 'A Solar Exalt' and walked off.
rapid glacier
Aren’t there rules about trying after a failure
marble sorrel
And just keep telling him that each time I beat him
rapid glacier
Surely there is a lockout timer
marble sorrel
Aren’t there rules about trying after a failure
You're forgetting the most important rule: If you're friends with the guy who owns the house, you get to do whatever you want.
marble sorrel
I think it took him until like try...6? to actually win and every single time after the first I had just been going through a list of Exalted Exalts for what he saw.
The first time I honestly told him 'a vampire' but he wouldn't stop
crimson horizon
Thankfully the group has improved with rules generally, though they don't run or play WoD at all because of the rules arguments
But for a while it was nice playing VtM the normal way
rapid glacier
I guess they were big on multisplat games
marble sorrel
My second ever game was A) A lot better B) A multisplat game (sorta).
It was a hunter game where the GM privately told each of the players 'You think one of the other hunters isn't really a human but you're not sure which'.
rapid glacier
Oh that’s a classic
marble sorrel
And then when everyone was worrying about Werewolves or Vampires or Mages handed me a Demon sheet.
With the goal: Make sure the other hunters succeed without getting caught.
rapid glacier
I did a hunter game like that but everyone actually was human
marble sorrel
They were going full paranoia over a hypothetical supernatural that was on their side.
rapid glacier
I had a sort of similar experience with my most recent VtM5 game, where a new player joined in and everyone thought was a Gangrel; it was actually one of my local WtA players using his character because he had choice paralysis, and they didn’t figure it out until he gave his spirit bonded wolf a cigarette
“What the fuck is a Gangrel” became kind of a meme for us after that, was a funny moment for them trying to navigate the death machine
vast blaze
Considering the post-Apocalypse game I've had turning in the back of my head for a while
How would you lot rule magick works in such a setting
Cause at this point, the gig is up, everyone knows the supernatural is real after literally seeing it ravage civilization
rapid glacier
Oh like a Gehenna/End Times deal?
vast blaze
Aye, yeah
Like, full-blown "The world is fucked, you are now living in Fallout but with ghosts and ghouls and things that go bump in the night and also wizards"
rapid glacier
Either it unravels reality as we know it or it awakens a bunch of new magic users and things get very strange basically instantly
Oh like Fallout?
rapid glacier
I think it may not change terribly much? As far as Magi go, Consensus would shift towards like the Technocratic Union’s way of thinking and less like traditions but I dunno how much it would actually change
rapid glacier
Have you read and Deadlands or Black Sun? They might have some inspirations to draw from
vast blaze
Negative
rapid glacier
Or Shadowrun, Magic is pretty relevant in that game too
marble sorrel
I had a sort of similar experience with my most recent VtM5 game, where a new pl...
For a big chunk of the first few sessions of my current game people were going 'Are we sure Aininur's a vampire?' and that was very funny. The power of 'eats food + deceptive aura + banu haqim (Sorcerer caste)' + Path of Spirit Manipulation' leading to 'We think Aininur might just be A Mage. Or maybe a weirdly cultured werewolf'.
vast blaze
Shadowrun could work, though I feel it'd only really work for Technocrat-controlled areas
rapid glacier
I would have thought the corpse smell would have given them away
marble sorrel
Humanity 8+ means she can keep Flush of Life going for 0 blood points so she's got it perpetually up.
rapid glacier
Blush doesn’t remove the corpse smell though, right? Gotta be the only Dark Ages PC who showers regularly
Well humanity 8
Probably not an obvious rotting corpse smell to begin with
vast blaze
...god there's an idea, hypertech super-city dystopias dotting the wasteland where yeah, sure, you're safer than the wastelands, but you're living under the thumb of magick techbros who either:
-Want to turn you into a servitor
-Want to brainwash you into being a good little conformist drone
-Want to eugenics the fuck out of you and all your loved ones
-Want to work you to death for profit
-Want to... actually, the Void Engineers are chill, idk what they'd do but it likely would be a lot more tolerable compared to the other conventions
rapid glacier
...god there's an idea, hypertech super-city dystopias dotting the wasteland whe...
This is Big O btw, not that it’s a bad thing
vast blaze
I need to watch that show at some point
rapid glacier
It’s noir Batman with mechs
vast blaze
Kinda also had the idea of a bunch of neo-Carthages popping up
Just vampiric city-states of varying degrees of dystopic ranging from "you're only marginally better off than in the wastelands" to "actually pretty nice"
marble sorrel
That and Aininur is 100% one of the only dark ages PCs who regularly washes. Resources 5 merchant's daughter from the sultanate of rum who is very unhappy with the state of things in this 'Poland' place.
vast blaze
Oh god
I can only imagine how sick she gets on the regular from how bad literally everything stinks
rapid glacier
Does blush of life make you breathe regularly or just fake the heartbeat
She might get out of having to smell entirely, not like a corpse needs to breathe to live
high current
re: bad experiences with first games etc
the game i was running until a couple of weeks ago, one of my players had apparently never had a good experience with WoD games before, but wasnt sure if she just didnt like the system or if it was something to do with the STs
so anyways she enjoyed my game and has decided her past STs were the issue 
(this was the game with the Toreador club owner who took her ex as an Enemy that i asked about earlier this month; we ended up playing one more session after i asked that, and i had the ex be a minor nuisance at the start of the session, and then finally got them to bite a plot hook that ended up resolving what had been going on with the main plot so far. we decided as a group it was a good place to stop)
also my own experience, my first time playing anything CofD went surprisingly well considering i was able to show up for session 0 and 1, and then right after session 1 my computer had like multiple issues that made it unusable and it took me like a month to replace everything
was a Werewolf the Forsaken 2e game, i played a Cahalith Iron Master, and iirc our first session was a mess(positive) that ended with us allied with a Joy-Claimed, our Rahu having gone Gauru/hard rage on a dance floor but not killing anybody, and uhhh our Elodoth I think having eaten most of some dude but having stashed what he didnt eat in a pizza box that he threw into a bush while the rest of us weren't around
and then a month later irl(i think it was like a week in-game?) my dude woke up from a vision-induced coma and got to play catch up while also trying to figure out what the fuck his visions meant
(i'd managed to get in touch with the group after my computer issues long enough to agree with them playing without me, and the ST and I agreed that Cahalith visions causing a coma was a fun way to explain my absence)
clear delta
Wanna make the abnos in mage the awakening
Will you play, goetia
Rank 2
Influence: games 2
Numina could be crafting supernatural gifts that even if you get them in the astral, pops up near you in real space
Plus maybe some numina about altering an area?
Ban: refusing a game? Attacking someone who lost to her?
Hm, bane: a thrown away toy? Or perhaps a new shiny toy that hasn't been played with
crimson horizon
I think Cheating should also be considered for a Ban
Like the Toy Maker from DrWho
clear delta
It's kinda hard
Because she technically cheats, technically not. She plays by her own odd rules you abide in her territory,
crimson horizon
What's she represent? Just the desire to play?
Be specific, "Will You Play" doesn't exactly convey much at least for me
clear delta
Oh, it's from project moon
She's like, a representation of
crimson horizon
Oh
clear delta
Misfit kids
And playing by their rules
Instead of forcing your way
When running into her turf, she invites you to rock paper scissors
Abd announces she'll play scissors
crimson horizon
I mean given this is CofD you could just have it be a literal Goetic idea of that character
Like you could just have the Goetic Spirit of Spiderman as a homie
clear delta
Letting her win, in her inverted rules, means you win and she gives you an old, beloved handmade voodoo doll to help you
Throwing scissors too makes her upset, as she says you didn't trust her abd kicks you out from her turf
Winning means you lose, and she turns her arm into giant scissors to hurt you
In battle, she brings allies and plays a weird game of tag, with occasional RPS matches you must deliberately lose
Her fight is a bit of a puzzle
Abnos in pmoon are basically goetia, by the way
Will you play is a mental creature
Though some abnos I'd make into supernal beings, like the butterfly of entangled lives
crimson horizon
Honestly that feels like an Abyssal Entity maybe?
Like a minor one but still there
Given the inversion factor of how it works
clear delta
Why so? She is a congruent thought being
She doesn't so much corrupt thing, instead just wanting to engage in her own rules
crimson horizon
im going off vibes tbf
rapid glacier
I think you have to pick the best fit here, I don't think any of the Project Moon stuff fits neatly into any of the WW games mythos cleanly, WoD or CofD
but it sounds like you're on the right track for a Mage entity, this an antagonist or just an npc they can stumble across?
maybe something monster of the week?
crimson horizon
unrelated but fuck HDYDT what the hell is this
19-23 Dots between 6 Spheres, jesus christ
high current
what, you dont like needing 5 conjunctive spheres at high ratings for what sounds like a basic effect? smh /j
crimson horizon
i hate burning books as much as anyone, but HDYDT might be my breaking point
high current
M20 as a whole is a mess, i blame Brucato
crimson horizon
This is why Mage The Awakening is just better
high current
im hoping that M5, whenever it happens, will take some cues from nMage as far as 'not requiring characters to be an expert in everything to accomplish anything'
but also, im not super familiar with older editions but i dont think Revised was nearly as bad on that front?
crimson horizon
me neither but that level of shit for that effect is clinically insane
Forces and Matter shouldnt even be there since Prime imo covers the whole "Sticking a Ward onto something" angle
you should need EITHER Life or Mind but no where near that level
and frankly the Prime difference is just dumb
should be 2 overall
i could also see substituting Mind/Life FOR Prime again for like, Banning common Black Suit Resonance Traits
rapid glacier
im hoping that M5, whenever it happens, will take some cues from nMage as far as...
based off of the other gamelines, this is probably gonna happen
marble sorrel
I think part of it is also that the actual 'what can a mage do' has always been 'I dunno, basicly everything'. So there needs to be some hoops to jump through but there hasn't really been fantastic ones that get a good amount of 'not making it miserable to deal with a mage' and 'not making it miserable to be a mage'
As mages spend a lot of time dealing with other mages and you need both sides of that to not suck 😛
crimson horizon
id have it be like
Correspondence 4 (For the Ban), Prime 2 (Sticking it onto an Object), Mind/Life/Prime 2 again
same successes and Quint Costs
but you dont need 1 gorillion spheres and dots
crimson horizon
I think part of it is also that the actual 'what can a mage do' has always been ...
Awakening does this perfectly imo
marble sorrel
Eh, I think Awakening can end up a bit heavy on the 'Mages can bullshit up being able to do most things with most spheres' but...I dunno. It's tricky when your magic system for a game about magic is very 'sure, why not'. XD
I'ts sorta why I prefer Changeling's Unleashing rules.
rapid glacier
I think this laptop ward is also not using a more ritual magic format; I'm not big up on Mage but as I understand it, its easier to stretch your limits with Spheres if you cast it like a ritual or a project, so you don't need a billion xp to pay for everything
marble sorrel
Where you've got arts for 'this is specific designed effects' and 'here is the freeform stuff that is actively designed to be wide ranging but very likely to have consequences to do'
high current
in nMage this would simply be Space 3, Life/Mind 2
rapid glacier
I wonder if there is a Rote for a ward that's easier to cast
high current
oMage doesnt give you artificially higher dot ratings for doing a ritual, it just lets you turn it into an extended test so you can roll more
crimson horizon
I'ts sorta why I prefer Changeling's Unleashing rules.
honestly fair Changeling rocks
rapid glacier
it would be stupid for a Vampire to be able to do this with just Thaumaturgy/Blood Sorcery 3 and the Ritual and a Mage needs a PhD in theorhetical metaphysics to do it
crimson horizon
I wonder if there is a Rote for a ward that's easier to cast
Wards and Signs, Prime 2 Rote
Ward, Space 2 Rote
Ban, Space 3 Rote
high current
(nMage 1e works similarly, 2e has ritual casting be the default and there's no benefit)
crimson horizon
oh you meant OWoD whoops
high current
worth noting, Ward in nMage 2e is 'shield against Space-fuckery', Ban is 'block/permit crossing a boundary'
marble sorrel
it would be stupid for a Vampire to be able to do this with just Thaumaturgy/Blo...
I mean, to be fair, thaumaturgy has always been 'Less freeform but the things it can do are easy/low investment'.
high current
and Wards and Signs is magic armor, as in defending a subject against magic
marble sorrel
Sorcery has always been Quick and Easy compared to Magecraft
Which is harder but is much more versatile.
rapid glacier
yeah yeah, linear vs sphere magic, but its still silly that Sphere magic can't reproduce a Linear effect easily
that's like being able to McGuyver a railgun but not change your car's spark plugs
marble sorrel
I mean, I kinda like role protection? I don't think mages should be able to reproduce all linear effects easily.
They do magic differently, that means different benefits but also different limitations
crimson horizon
and Wards and Signs is magic armor, as in defending a subject against magic
theres also just Mage Armor lmao
high current
yes but that's a different thing
crimson horizon
I mean, I kinda like role protection? I don't think mages *should* be able to re...
ive done some personal rulings on "Nightfolk Emulation"
in addition to my own weird bullshit effects like a new method of Hanging Spells for Later Use
like this
high current
casting Wards and Signs and using Prime Mage Armor give different results; W&S means any spell targeting the subject, which can be anything, has to overcome a Withstand rating of your spell's Potency. Prime Mage Armor gives you damage reduction against magic equal to your Prime dots
crimson horizon
since HDYDT bloated Time based spell hanging
i split it into Entropy 3 "Conditional Triggers" and Time 3 "Timer Spells"
this is what i did for Tripping the Ire
my wording is a bit weird so if anything needs elaboration ask
mighty zephyr
unrelated but fuck HDYDT what the hell is this
Fun fact
Dante does not have the spheres
To ward dantes laptop
crimson horizon
that's
marble sorrel
...I'll admit, I kinda really don't like going 'Here is the exact power of another splat and now mages can do it too'.
crimson horizon
i mean it's an inevitability of happening, if it hasnt already happened
a mage tryna emulate a splats powers for some reason and they wanna run it mechanically that way too
mighty zephyr
Especially when "i am a half splat mage" is something people want to do all the time
crimson horizon
like Guide to the Black Hand (My Beloathed) set that precedent for Ghoul Magi
and it feels unfair (and dumb) to exclude Kinfolk Magi and Kinain Magi because they didnt get their equivalents
granted Kinfolk dont get much anyway
crimson horizon
Especially when "i am a half splat mage" is something people want to do all the ...
correct, my 2nd Mage game has 2 Half Splat Magi, one Kinain, and one Kinfolk
marble sorrel
I guess I need to put out more of those Changeling wards the knock mage's avatars offline 😛
mighty zephyr
and it feels unfair (and dumb) to exclude Kinfolk Magi and Kinain Magi because t...
They did
mighty zephyr
I believe its in revised
crimson horizon
aah ic, what books
marble sorrel
There's a merit for being a Kinian, yeah.
It lets you learn an art.
And the C20 Kinian are not forbidden from being mages.
crimson horizon
yeah but that's not anywhere near what Ghouls got in Black Hand
marble sorrel
Though they can only learn arts based on their level of Faerie Blood trait, as they're still separate magic styles.
mighty zephyr
I dont recall as I just woke up but I did see excerpts where they have the same general rulen
crimson horizon
like Ghouls got "You can emulate minor discipline powers Coincidentally"
mighty zephyr
"Doing nominally thematic shit makes it coincidental"
crimson horizon
yeah its INSANE
marble sorrel
Yeah, later versions just went 'ghoul mages can just Have Dots In Disciplines, where they work like disciplines'
mighty zephyr
Very telling that Mage players constantly want to not engage with the magic system as much as possible
crimson horizon
yeah for me i hard restrict all mages from learning any form of Linear Magick, but they can gain tutelage in certain spheres by translating Nightfolk Sorceries Paradigmatically into Sphere Knowledge
like uh Reverse Engineering Forces by having a Vampire demonstrate the Flick and explaining in depth how it works
marble sorrel
While I tend more towards 'Mages can do a lot of things but they can't just Learn The Exact Trick another splat does, unless they're a ghoul or kinian or such'.
crimson horizon
because to me, if you wanna have disciplines or arts, play a leech or a changeling
this is mage
we are doing mage
cast a spell god damnit
they retain SOME benefits of their half-splat (such as ghoulish agelessness, kinain chimerical sight)
marble sorrel
Meanwhile my current vampire has a merit from the mage books and is constantly poring over the werewolf books for stuff to make. XD
mighty zephyr
I think you should just replicate it with spheres yes
crimson horizon
but never Disciplines or Arts in a literal 1 to 1 sense
crimson horizon
I think you should just replicate it with spheres yes
Exactly
plus it opens up some really interesting possibilities should you end up in high power play
where your Prime Focused Kinain starts crafting wholly new Arts
mighty zephyr
I also think it works better if you are playing not 20th
And are making it so Paradigm informs spheres
marble sorrel
...that I feel is something that Kinain mage shouldn't really be able to do. Even changelings find it very, very difficult to make new arts (As shown by the art of Cold Iron being Kinda Fucked and broken right now). Kinain are only partially as connected to the dreaming as a Changeling is.
But I think I might bow out of this conversation
mighty zephyr
Thats not what they mean
rapid glacier
M20 is just kinda not great, huh
that's the only one I've got experience with, what have I been missing out on, dang
marble sorrel
Honestly, ti's more That Book Specificially.
Later books have more normal sphere requirements.
crimson horizon
granted for what im talking about specifically id be better off just using Awakening with Imperial Mysteries
marble sorrel
The PAWs taser from the technocracy stuff is iirc...3 spheres? Forces, Spirit and Prime.
For a taser that forces shapechangers back into their natural form
crimson horizon
since the Practice of Entities just lets you fuck with templating
Death letting you mess with Vampires, Sin-Eaters
Fate letting you mess with Changelings
etc etc
mighty zephyr
Later books also have Gilgul being literally impossible for any living mage to accomplish
crimson horizon
define living
would my nuclear wizard clanker who is a Matter/Spirit Pattern be alive?
mighty zephyr
Any mage you are likely to encounter in a game that isnt jerking off as an archmage in doistep
crimson horizon
yeah fair
graceful saffron
An interesting comparison - I love awakening Death Mages versus Geists.
Their interactions with Ghosts and the Underworld are very distinct, and I have enjoyed crossover campaigns a lot.
crimson horizon
honestly they're more likely to be buddies than enemies given how chill most Krewes seem to be in Contagion Chronicles
mighty zephyr
Depends on how the Mage views Ghosts
crimson horizon
also true
graceful saffron
Yeah. Without Contagion, I'd say there is more room for antagonism than collaboration.
crimson horizon
i think it'd be the other way round with most of the antagonism being from Mages
given how closed off Orders are, how secretive Orders are, and Mage Obsessions dragging them in all manner of morally dubious directions
graceful saffron
I nod The book encourages that, but also for Krewes to assume they are a rival Krewe, at least initially, or for Mages to be enemies of Kereboi you might owe a favor, or doing something that is disrupting spirits.
As far as the Krewe itself, your Krewe and its connection to mortals can offend or endanger Mages and their beliefs, as are many of your end game goals.
crimson horizon
Mages 🤝 Geists
Murdering The Tremere
marble sorrel
Mages 🤝 Geists 🤝 Other Tremere
crimson horizon
also true
love how complicated social networks in Splats get
and also the Tremere being actually kinda cool instead of a bunch of cackling failures
high current
iirc its implied a lot Mages with Death will make enemies of Sin-Eaters, due to viewing Ghosts as tools instead of People-That-Happen-To-Be-Dead
graceful saffron
iirc its implied a lot Mages with Death will make enemies of Sin-Eaters, due to ...
Indeed!
clear delta
Wanna make the abnos in mage the awakening
Will you play, goetia
Rank 2
Influen...
(for the will you play goetia)
crimson horizon
Pretty neat
clear delta
Image of will you play
marble sorrel
...really? A 6th when there's still so many splats that didn't get anything at all for 5th? That's...cut off early.
Like obviously, I wasn't expecting them to get to like Demon or something but I'd have expected them to at least get Mage 5 done before a 6th.
mighty zephyr
I mean it's been 9 years of 5th edition
marble sorrel
Sure but going back to the start means that it's going to be like another 9 years before you see any of those other splats.
mighty zephyr
Well it's not 6th edition of WoD, it's 5th edition of VtM
I didn't see anything else about everyone else getting a 6th
marble sorrel
If they're moving to 6th for VtM I don't expect them to keep developing 5th splats unless those splats are already in the pipeline and anything 6th is going to need to wait until after VTM.
rapid glacier
I wonder how much is going to change, they’ve said practically nothing
Maybe I’m signing up for that GenCon playtest, I guess
high current
where'd they announce it cause i cant find anything on google 
just the announcement of the announcement happening at gencon
rapid glacier
GenCon’s events page leaked the game version as sixth edition
high current
