#World of Darkness

1 messages · Page 44 of 1

fading kettle
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I see

mighty zephyr
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I will also say you might like Awakening over Ascension

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Rules wise

fading kettle
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hmmmm

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I'll look into, then

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But i'm not sure the other players will like to switch systems

mighty zephyr
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Im just waking up so im not able to really parse the article

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But I know the game at least

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And youre totally right btw that 20th is very needlessly crunchy and it can actively get in the way of the narrative sometimes

fading kettle
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On the other hand, the other part of my question remains:
Based on the essay I read, I really like the idea of swapping game rules, invoking new ones, ALTERING the rules of the game itself. I find it works really well with all the gnostic-ish questions of Mage, the way reality is shaped by Mages.

mighty zephyr
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This is one of the problems 5th attempts to solve

fading kettle
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And i'm waiting (hopelessly) for a Mage V5

mighty zephyr
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Why hopelessly

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Its confirmed

fading kettle
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AH ?

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Didn'ts know

mighty zephyr
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Its probably getting announced properly this month

fading kettle
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where is the news ?

mighty zephyr
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Its in the interview Jason Carl did about white wolf returning

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Mage is next then most likely Changeling

fading kettle
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Oh okay

mighty zephyr
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Wraith and Demon are most likely not returning

fading kettle
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(And mummy ?) /s

mighty zephyr
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Nothing about mummy

fading kettle
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But yeah, I like the idea of rule-warping. Like the mages pc are inflitrating a technocracy based and activate by mistake the defense system, which channels energy, and the scene uses a Daggerheart-ish Event, with paradox used to activate effect, things like that
Or, more directly, one the PCs recently made a pact in Umbra to channel their lost-twin soul into a Death Reaper Scythe, and I was thinking of, instead of a classic magic item, give them a City of Mist magic playbook (it's a pbta that uses small sheets with phrases that can be invoked to increase success chance on a 2d6). City of Mist plays on the balance between the human and their magic counterpart, and I find it works with the narrative arc of the character. The Paradox could channel easily in the Decline system of CoM.
And it's not a heavy rule, it doesn't affect much outside itself

mighty zephyr
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I think if your concern is making the players learn new systems, adding new systems into the game will lead to the same frustration

fading kettle
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hmmm

mighty zephyr
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I think if you, however, are feeling frustration with the rules

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You should feel free to just throw them out and simplify them when need be

fading kettle
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hmmm
I understand, and I used to do that sometimes
But, hmmm, I feel like i'm not playing the game then, if I just eject rules whenever. I've seen too many "rules don't matter" discussions irl, that rubs me the wrong way

mighty zephyr
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You arent playing the game if youre playing other games either

fading kettle
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yeah, but i'm playing a game, at least

mighty zephyr
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You still are, if you're just simplifying the rules of the game youre playing currently

fading kettle
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Hmmm

mighty zephyr
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Like ask the question

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  1. What is my problem with the wod mechanics
  2. Does this solve it
fading kettle
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I mean yeah
I’ve already done it for fights, playing them without initiatives and having enemies dies in three hits max without doing rolls for soaking
It just feels like a form a cheat, skipping on the meat and potatoes

marble sorrel
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I know werewolves are never happy but Changeling freeholds must make them really salty to see.

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As they're built on the same locations as caerns.

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But an important part of them is that non-changelings have to be able to freely visit.

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As that mortal imagination is needed to keep the dreaming going.

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And both groups need to regularly play 'Piss Off Mages, You Can't Have It'

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Sanctuary. A changeling’s freehold is her castle, and she can expect security within it. While inside her freehold, she gains the freehold’s rating in extra dice to any defensive roll against physical or magical attacks, such as dodging, parrying, blocking, or countering, and gains half the freehold’s rating to soak damage.

And to be fair: Changelings are pretty damn good at making sure mages stay out when all the people who call the freehold home can have +1-5 to all defences, including Night-Kin Counterspelling (And half that in soak)

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Mandate. Inside a freehold, the owner’s word is law. Though she may be beholden to a higher lord or another freehold, within the bounds of her own freehold she sets the rules. Contravening a freeholder’s rules inflicts a dice penalty equal to the freehold’s rating for any action taken within the freehold, until the offense is forgiven by the freeholder

So a mage trying to invade a freehold is at up to -5 dice on his casting and the defenders are at up to +5 dice.

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Explains how they've managed to keep them against things as beastly in a direct fight as werewolves and as powerful mystically as mages.

nimble gale
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jesus

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how's banality rating effect that? Since like, I imagine a weaver-heavy opfor (say, invading technocrats) would be able to do some pushback?

marble sorrel
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But it doesn't protect against say 'Beating them about the head with a silver sword'

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The big thing is that Cantrips can't affect Cold Iron and cold Iron is unsoakable for (Most) fay..

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So Primium Plating is less useful than good old cold iron.

mighty zephyr
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Well the counterspelling rule doesn't really apply

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Since it'd be however you counter Changeling magic just from Mages

marble sorrel
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...why wouldn't the counterspelling rule apply? Countering is expressly listed as one of the things they gain the sanctuary dice bonus on.

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Like not even 'suggested', it's there next to blocking

mighty zephyr
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Because Mages wouldn't use Mage rules in a Changeling game, and Changelings wouldn't use Changeling rules in a Mage game

high current
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but a character built with the Mage rules is made to interact with the Mage rules, so suddenly bringing in Daggerheart or City of Mist mechanics is likely to leave your players confused and frustrated

marble sorrel
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...that's gunna really surprise the people with the mage advantage that expressly lets them learn some changeling cantrips.

nimble gale
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Uhhh... they absolutely can in owod. Hell, you cna make a mage who can use changeling cantrips and garou gifts and is a ghoul, if you really want to make everything go sideways.

marble sorrel
mighty zephyr
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I mean yeah, but those are exceptions if you're doing a crossover, but usually you're supposed to use statblocks of your game

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not also have the other book and run it that way

nimble gale
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Like, owod is expressely crossover friendly. Or should the knight templar mage NPC in my DAV20 campaign be using refluffed thaumaturgy instead of the pillars system?

marble sorrel
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...I'm also not 100% sure what the bonus to countering would apply to if you're not going to use mage rules.

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As changeling cantrips are not countered.

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That's a bonus that only applies vs mages.

mighty zephyr
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Then there wouldn't be, and you'd just get a bonus to defensive cantrips

high current
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owod is expressely crossover friendly
[looks at the various pre-5e books for .5s]
are you sure about that? 🤨 Vampire is the only game with virtues, Mage is the only one with the Paradox/Quintessence wheel, etc, they all have things that are exclusive, and some of them even have entire skills that dont exist in the other games

mighty zephyr
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or like, dodging

marble sorrel
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...I think you're kinda just flat wrong here Voy. There are express rules for various splats interacting with each other and hell those rules refer to something that exists in another splat and how that splat interacts with other splats.

high current
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like, it's possible to do crossovers, but owod is very much definitionally not designed with the assumption that you're going to use Mage rules when a Mage shows up in your Vampire game, that's why the Vampire books where Mages are brought up say stuff like 'just pretend they have Thaumaturgy at X dots in Y paths' etc

nimble gale
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Then why does Vampire have rules for how they counterspell against mages?

high current
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because you're capable of having mage antagonists show up without breaking out the full mage rules, by, as mentioned, using thaumaturgy instead

nimble gale
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Every owod game I've ever been in has used Actual Splat Sheets for NPCs of That Splat.

marble sorrel
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And there are ways for various splats to get some tools from those splats.

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Like mages can get limited access to Cantrips or Disciplines.

high current
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okay, good for you, that isnt the standard or the expectation set by the books themselves

marble sorrel
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...okay so Rats...what does the rule there, that expressly refers to countering, something that only matters if the mage rules are in play....do?

nimble gale
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okay, good for you

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look dude, you don't have to be a cock about it because we're disagreeing here

mighty zephyr
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countering doesn't just mean "counterspelling" though

nimble gale
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Every owod game I've ever been in has used crossover rules; the books generally have explicit rules for when crossovers happen, and lite rules for 'if you don't have the book, yyou can do x instead'

mighty zephyr
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it's used in conjuction with hitting people to mean "counter the attack"

high current
nimble gale
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if you don't have dark ages: mage you can just sub thaumaturgy in and it works just fine, but either one works and it explicitly always has

marble sorrel
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...hell, there are vampire rituals in Dark Ages that expressly refer to Spheres.

mighty zephyr
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Okay but you're conflating "every book ever written" with "the core rulebook assumptions of the system"

high current
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none of the games fully expect you to have any of the other games; 20th anniversary has some stuff to support the mechanics from other games if you have them but it never says 'you have to use the Mage rules for this'

nimble gale
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I never said that they *required8 you to have them, just that they absolutely did work with it???

marble sorrel
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When using other splat rules are optional

high current
marble sorrel
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Not 'should do or shouldn't do'

mighty zephyr
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I mean in a normal game it wouldn't, yeah.

marble sorrel
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...and I think you're just flat wrong and imposing your view of a 'normal game' when the game includes plenty of crossover rules in advantages, rituals and backgrounds.

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Like 'use the splat your playing as' is one option

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Not the assumption

mighty zephyr
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Okay then, let's end the conversation.

marble sorrel
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I mean, I was talking about Changeling and you butted in with 'You're wrong'.

mighty zephyr
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Ok

marble sorrel
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The Tremere Ban Ritual, designed to deal with the fact that Mage Sorcery is very good at 'nuking a guy the next town over', in a way that vampire thaumaturgy generally isn't.

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But to go back to where I started: I really like the option players have to cheapen the cost of raising a freehold.

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You can invest a tonne of glamour and resources and treasures into one.

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...or you can Do A Cool Quest, as you take the balefire from one freehold to light the flame of your new one.

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With the risk that if the quest fails, that freehold is reduced in power and you don't get a new freehold.

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Makes it more active than just 'do ritual or invest resourses', as players need to actually do things that are worth being the focus of a session.

nimble gale
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I do like an excuse to quest

marble sorrel
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...oh, C20 also included new rules for Treasures Of Banality.

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Objects imbued with so much banality they're mystical in their own way

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The Friar's Cross is the result of what can only be called medieval conversion therapy, abusing changelings to make them deny their mystical nature and lose all hope. Interestingly, it's noted as not being a holy object, as it's not an object of faith. Faith requires wonder and hope.

high current
# marble sorrel Ah, *there* it is. You are correct it's pillar but it does well...expressly refe...

i maintain that this doesnt mean 'you should use Mage mechanics for Mage NPCs in your Vampire game', its just using the familiar terms for the other splats' mechanics; you're still generally expected to eg treat Mages as mortal Tremere, Werewolves as Gangrel, etc.
(I'm not saying you can't use Mage rules in a Vampire game, just that you're not expected to; its also noteworthy imo that it says Path or Pillar, because Path would be Tremere Bullshit, and Pillar could also be understood as a reference to the Itarajana, who stick to the Pillar system even in the modern nights, if your group doesnt have Mage books)

marble sorrel
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...Path would also be Sorcerer

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They learn paths, not spheres.

high current
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right, forgot hedge mages use paths too

mighty zephyr
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Proper Noun Saturation

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Quick, what's a Chimera in WoD

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you have 30 seconds

marble sorrel
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A creature of Dreaming.

nimble gale
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Someone's playing too much ExVWOD and likes ex2 lunars!

high current
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but yeah, Vampire is honestly the game with the most ways to represent other splats--you got Tremere and the Itarajana for Mages, Kiasyd for Changelings, Giovanni bs for Wraiths, Gangrel for Werewolves/the other Changing Breeds, etc

marble sorrel
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...ironically, I don't think necromancy represents wraith stuff very well.

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As it's about controlling the dead

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Rather than being the dead

high current
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i mean, none of them are perfect representations in any way

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but the Giovanni existing means there are mechanics for handling ghosts

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and iirc you've said dur-an-ki gives access to middle umbra spirit stuff vvvSip

marble sorrel
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Eh...ish...? It basicly goes 'Look at werewolf for the rules on spirits'.

high current
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like, not explicitly the same rules one would use for them in werewolf or mage afaik, but something that works for representing those sorts of spirits

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o, i figured it would give some lightweight rules for handling them vvvBap

marble sorrel
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It's got some lightweight rules but suggests if you want proper rules you should look into the associated book.

high current
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yeah thats the general approach all of the games take afaik

mighty zephyr
marble sorrel
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Hey, only one of those is actually WoD. The rest are Exalted or CoD 😛

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Oh wait, there's the human-animal hybrid one too.

mighty zephyr
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And the Stargazers patron

marble sorrel
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The Ravnos one is connected to the Dreaming so I call myself not wrong on that one. XD

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...oh, that's cute/likely good for sanity.

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Vampires in a spiritual realm are not innately vulnerable to fire or sunlight.

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The traditional laws of physics and reality are often bent to reflect the spiritual understanding of those that travel through the spirit realm. It might be a winter night in the physical world, but noon on a summer day in a specific section of the spirit realm. Typically, the usual banes of vampires, such as fire or sunlight, do not affect them in the exact same manner as in the material world. Visits to the spirit realms should be inherently challenging, but not instant death traps.
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This will be good to know for Aininur.

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Considering you can't see into a spirit realm before you poke your head in, it would result in spirit manipulation vampires going 'roll the dice, see if I'm autodead' otherwise.

mighty zephyr
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Well because in the Umbra there is no "Fire" or "Sunlight"

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there's only spirits

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and they are sentient and able to decide on if they kill you or not

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Now Helios is probably going to kill you on principle but y'know, daytime umbral trips probably aren't a concern for a vampire 99% of the time

marble sorrel
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That reminds me: Aininur needs to have that conversation with a Sun Spirit like she was planning. She needs one for the fetish she's planning on making.

orchid void
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Helios hates most people for not being to his standards right?

mighty zephyr
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Because Helios is incapable of changing his mind.

marble sorrel
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In other news: I really should think before I type. I couldn't remember the name of the fetish she's planning on making so I just typed into Google 'Werewolf Fetish' and then immediately went 'no, I have made a mistake'

nimble gale
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lmao

marble sorrel
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There it is. Eye of the Night.

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During the night you can make it glow like moonlight (Useful as vampires don't innately see in the dark)

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And during the day it filters all sunlight around it into night.

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You can see why a vampire might like this

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Being a Level 2 Fetish she can make this pretty reliably but she'd need to get a Sun Spirit or a Lune to agree to help and take some risks making it.

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As it can only be forged at Sunset or Sunrise.

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Neither of which is really Safe Vampire Times

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...also: Man, changeling are very good at making vampires sad.

# 
The Lady’s Favor
Infused with the warmth of Summer, this perfectly white handkerchief is monogrammed with a delicate, golden letter T surrounded by soft, embroidered honeysuckle blooms. A comforting piece, it brings sunny light to any room and an aspect of gentle radiance to its bearer. 

Mechanics: Carrying the grace and calm of a bright summer day, the handkerchief can make anything it touches an object of desire. Using the power of Aphrodisia (Summer •••), the owner can spend a point of Glamour to imbue her target with the effects of the cantrip by touching the Favor to it, however briefly. Additionally, the owner may spend a point of Glamour to cause their target to glow brightly with the light of the sun for the duration of a scene.

These effects may be applied independently or together.
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'Hey Mr Vampire. You are now producing summer day sunlight from yourself. Have fun'

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...huh, that's a rare effect. Changlings don't get a lot of things that give soak but Dragonscales increases the TN of damage rolls against them to 9.

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So while they can't soak a werewolf's claws, only 1/5 damage dice is getting through.

tough pebble
mighty zephyr
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There's a reason they made it into "Talisman" eventually

tough pebble
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Smart.

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Also, talisman is probably a closer definition to what they actually are in Apocalypse

marble sorrel
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...oh, I'd not realized that part of WoD's history.

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The Fae ended the Impergium.

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The smiths of the Tuatha De Danann shared their knowledge of crafting blades and arrows of silver with humanity, to allow them to defend themselves from werewolves.

clear delta
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Legacy that mixes mind and matter into magic items
Taking on symbolism of objects carrying emotional weight and information
Instead of stealing things from the astral, they extract a bit of the essence from astral objects and creatures, and weave into objects to grant them power
It's an idea based on EGO gear/psychoments from Project Moon
They must obtain the samples from the targets, with creatures requiring trickery, deals or pure violence
Mind and matter primary, paths moros and thyrsus. Orders mysterium and free council

vast blaze
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Is it better to invest in base Attributes at character creation or things like Potence, Celerity, and Fortitude?

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I'm currently debating a 7-point Fortitude investment rather than a 5-point Stamina investment and I'm not sure which is a smarter move

marble sorrel
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Fortitude is generally better than a dot of stamina.

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That said: I'd go with the stamina if your stamina isn't currently like 1.

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It's cheaper to buy to Fortitude 1 than to Stamina 5 with exp.

vast blaze
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Right

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Guessing it's the same with Strength vs Potence?

vast blaze
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So is my Strength, though I've already bought a level of Potence

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Which I might go back on

marble sorrel
vast blaze
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...it IS a shitload more expensive to get more ranks in Potence and such later

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Fuckin 7 x the current level

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5 x current level if I wanna shell out for that one merit that nets me another Discipline

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...admittedly though

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Bumping my attributes from 3 to 4 would net me a specialization

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Though I'm not sure how good Attribute specializations are, they might be useless

marble sorrel
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They're roughly +25% more successes

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They're very good

vast blaze
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Hm

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Probably best to just bump up my baseline Attributes then

marble sorrel
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Base attributes are generally pretty solid.

vast blaze
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The Bound flaw is a full-on level 3 Blood Binding, correct?

velvet sparrow
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Correct

vast blaze
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Thought so, thanks

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Took it for my character and figured I should check on that, the idea's that his master blood bound him not only to ensure his loyalty but also to protect him from the Tremere blood-binding him and forcing him into their Pyramid, since both himself and his sire have somehow managed to remain outside of it

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As much a means of protecting him as it is a means of protecting her

mighty zephyr
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Does kinda feel like youre kinda skipping out on having a bane then

high current
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i dont think being bound to your Sire would prevent anybody else in the Pyramid from binding either of you
it's a neat idea in concept, though

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also yeah if you're doing that it kinda nullifies the clan bane
I can't remember if V20 offered alternative banes or not though

mighty zephyr
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It doesnt

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Far as I recall

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Excepting bloodlines

high current
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yeah only thing i could find is the Telyavelic Tremere bloodline

nimble gale
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I mean, there's also the antitribu. And 'you're bloodbound to the council of seven' is only half the clan weakness of clan tremere, the other one being 'blood binding you is easy to do'. It's very much a 'talk to your ST about it', but if a player came up to me with an idea for a tremere that's outside the pyramid, I'd be inclined to listen to them at least, 'cause it's more rope for me to use

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free plot hooks, y'know?

vast blaze
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Aye

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And I mean, it just seems logical that his sire would take steps to prevent her childer from getting blood bound into the Pyramid

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If nothing else than to protect herself from getting forced back in, she got lucky once and managed to escape through her mortal friends aiding her, but they're long dead and she won't catch another break like that

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One less loose end that could be used to drag her back

craggy coyote
# high current i dont think being bound to your Sire would prevent anybody else in the Pyramid ...

I believe in V20, it does, so I double chekced the core book. PG 286:

A full blood bond, once formed, is nearly inviolate.
Once bound, a thrall is under the sway of her regnant
and her regnant only. She cannot be bound again by
another vampire unless the first blood bond wears away
“naturally.” [Emphasis mine]

A vampire can experience lesser (one- and
two-drink) bonds toward several individuals; indeed,
many Kindred enjoy such bonds, as they create artifi-
cial passion in their dead hearts. Upon the formation
of a full blood bond, though, all lesser sensations are
wiped away. Vampire lovers occasionally enter into
mutual blood bonds with each other; this is the closest
thing the undead can feel to true love. Even this sen-
sation can turn to disgust or hate over the centuries,
though, and in any event few Kindred trust each other
enough to initiate it.

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Its part of why I can make an argument the tremere "bane" of being blood bound isn't much of a bane since every vampire without a 5 dot merit can get forced into that shit

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V5 gave them an actual bane

mighty zephyr
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Its not an argument really

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The book explicitly says it basically isnt a bane

craggy coyote
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Agreed, and I think that's kinda dumb so praise be to V5 making it hard for them to ghoul people or blood bond them

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Could have at least just raised the DC for any tremere to resist a blood bond like with Brujah frenzy, that'd at least be something

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the v20 bane is "2 drinks instead of 3"

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Which is... meh

high current
mighty zephyr
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The main problem if the pyramid is intact is that the Canarilla apparatus will collapse immediately on "Tremere antibru who knows the path of flame and just illegally embraced one of the best swordsmen in the world"

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Thats like "oh yeah this person is definitely about to be some kind of terrorist"

vast blaze
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But good point

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I... probably should reconsider this concept

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Or at the very least retool it

mighty zephyr
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Like i said, build a person first and then embrace them as a vampire

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It ends up a lot more natural

rapid glacier
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we go live in like two minutes

craggy coyote
craggy coyote
# vast blaze Oh no, he was a mediocre fencer at Cambridge before he was Embraced, he learned ...

If I may make a suggestion;
Tremere tend to embrace academics, and occultists both.
Perhaps someone at Cambridge who was a historian, and did fencing, and was embraced because they had both the long term tremere talentof resarch and knowledge...

and the short term utiltiy of being a sword arm. Maybe even give them the "former ghoul" merit for a dot in potnece to represent the transitory point in their life.

orchid void
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i usually pick out the vampire powers and then make a person who would fall into having that set of awful powers

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mostly this is because i think vampire is for making the worst people (un)alive and watching them do stupid shit

craggy coyote
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I think that's a matter of prefernece, there's fun on both ends

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Sometimes vampirism is "Lets make this blorbo even worse", sometimes its "and then it got worse"

mighty zephyr
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I think for someone new to the system and setting

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Its better to start normal

marble sorrel
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There's also an element of 'how long you've been a vampire'

craggy coyote
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^

marble sorrel
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Once you hit 'more time a vampire than alive', the alive starts to become less and less key

mighty zephyr
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Because I think theres a visible concern of making an "optimal" character which doesnt exactly jive with WoD

craggy coyote
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MFW my optimal combat build spent almost nothing on WP, and the elder casts Low Tier god with dominate

marble sorrel
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I mean, that's the nature of RPGs. If people are going to talk about a system, they're going to talk about what are good mechanical decisions. That's no more or less true of WoD than any other RPG.

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Actually, I'd say it's a bit more true of Storyteller games than most due to the split Exp/Dots system really promoting 'Working out how to not start off with half the EXP value of another player'

mighty zephyr
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I mean yes but making an optimal gish vampire slayer build with strangers in a play by post vampire game is not a way id recommend people go into things

craggy coyote
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^

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basic RPG etiquette is that you buy in to the premise

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characters gotta have a reason to get on board with other people

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and a reason not to just go stabby stabby at first go

marble sorrel
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...considering the nature of WoD, someone could have been a gish swordfighter spellcaster before they became a vampire, which is kinda funny on the 'make the human first' level.

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But on a more serious level: I don't think there's anything wrong/out of place with having an end point planned out and working back to the human they were before. Character design doesn't have to flow chronologically.

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Especially if you want to play a vampire from a group that can be a bit more particular.

orchid void
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you can also like, tone back certain parts

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because of the way WoD rewards being invested in a skill At All, i would say that if you want to do spellcasting and swordplay, pick one as the focus of your building and then flesh out what kind of person would be Good At That

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Its the dark ages, a young nobleman learning the sword (2 dot melee, specialty) is more than enough to express a passing competence and familiarity

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also, submit yourself to the Pyramid, because its funny

marble sorrel
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Mummies: "Yes, submit to us! Wait, shit. Wrong Pyramid."

orchid void
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make someone who has to learn to be okay with Dead Man's Pointy Shoes

velvet sparrow
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I agree with be a part of the Pyramid

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Even if it's just so you can break free

orchid void
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actually i know what my advice is

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you should be thinking about your backstory as an excuse to stick more pins in the curse-dolly that is your character

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make a bouquet of knives for your gm~! taking an enemy isn't a disadvantage! its an advantage, because it means you get more screentime

velvet sparrow
orchid void
#

being part of the pyramid sucks? fuck yes it does, but it lets the GM have leverage on you, which again means you can more easily engage with the plot they're setting up for you~!

marble sorrel
orchid void
velvet sparrow
#

I still remember my Tremere

Who faked his own death in an Anarch revolt, and went to LA to pretend to be a Toreador who wrote bad poetry

hybrid dock
velvet sparrow
#

But bad poetry in the way where you can never quite tell if it's intentionally bad or not

hybrid dock
#

its my favorite shit

orchid void
#

look i love my mehket, she's making her blood more addictive and potent so that she can enthrall other vampires to her via abusive blood-bonds

#

because she really, desperately, is terrified of being both Dead and Alone

hybrid dock
#

.,..

#

delilah this is a very you character huh

orchid void
#

i made a sweaty failgirl medstudent and i fed her to a ghost

hybrid dock
#

very delilah sentence too

mighty zephyr
#

Del going Ordo is the least surprising thing on the planet

marble sorrel
#

Aininur picked up presence purely so she could pick up the 'Be a complete fucking asshole' combination discipline.

#

On the topic of 'make a human first' too: Don't forget there's a solid chance that a turned vampire knows about vampires before they are turned. Someone who ends up a notably combative vampire might have been a ghoul before they were turned.

orchid void
# hybrid dock very delilah sentence too 

It was this song-and-dance that fundamentally alienated dear Julka from her peers. Well, that and her intellect, but let's be honest with ourselves and with her- its mostly that she's a creepy fuckup who cringed when you looked at her too hard and recited facts about surgical procedures. Oh she aced every test you put in front of her, she could disassemble a person in her head, tell you the whens and whys and hows of damage, of death. But she couldn't ever meet anyone's eye. She couldn't stand in front of a court, and her notation, her timing, everything she picked as she weepingly trudged towards her goal of understanding... it made you regret asking her. She was to be resigned to some dank city morgue at best, a government position in some fucking soviet-era basement cutting up interesting people without names dragged out of the gutter.

It was the place the Almighty had seemingly allotted just for her. Julka didn't have that much life to lose when something dead took it from her.```
hybrid dock
#

hehehehehe

orchid void
#

she might figure out how to infect people with her beast and create a weird flock/almost-hive-mind. things are looking up for julka (her new dad is a ghost that drinks people's good dreams along with their vitae, subjecting them to nightmares.) [he then uses big needles to pull the nightmares out of people's brains to inject into others later]

craggy coyote
orchid void
#

the ordo dracul is fun

#

no just take a hit straight off the polish failgirl it gives you a point of willpower

craggy coyote
rapid glacier
#

yay, my session zeros are done, and next week we start for real

marble sorrel
#

Do you know if WoD 20th has a Hard Stat Cap rule anywhere?

#

Obviously there's the 'can only raise stat X amount naturally', which is normally 5

#

But this is more for Temporary Boosts.

mighty zephyr
#

Mage and werewolf can both easily do it

#

Idk about vampire

marble sorrel
#

Oh yes, Changeling can blow some stats out of the water. I'm sorta wondering if there is a 'look, stop it. You've stacked as high as you can get' in the base ruleset.

#

Trolls can have Passive Strength 8 before Houses or Cantrips and the baseline effect of Dragon's Ire is a strength buff so Trolls can hit Double Digits strength honestly without even trying that hard.

#

'I'm a troll with 2 oaths and I've got the most basic understanding of Dragon's Ire. I'm sitting at strength 10-12 when it matters'

mighty zephyr
#

I would assume its "when the storyteller thinks youre fucking up the game"

marble sorrel
#

That seems the likely option.

#

Changelings get a lot of ability to Passively Have Stats Past 5, even at chargen.

#

A Sidhe needs to honestly try to have a sub-5 appearance etc

#

...I do really like the Changeling mind control art, Magesty. It's much more 'this is a tool for social' than 'this is a blunt hammer'. They also have some fun 'this doesn't work in X situation'.

#

Like the 'I am too majestic for people to contract or attack' falters if you are humiliated or bested in any public activity.

#

So even people who are affected by it have an 'out' to work towards.

#

You need to get to rank 4 to get the 'basic order' that Dominate gives but the way realms work, Changelings can do a lot more with it than a vampire can with dominate 1.

#

Like they could use Magesty 4 (Dictum) + Fae 5 (Dweomer of Glamour) to order a spell to end.

#

As they're combining 'can give a simple order' with 'Target can be a supernatural effect or raw essense'.

#

Rank 5 Magesty can also strip people of their supernatural templates but gives people outs.

#

As it imposes a Geas. So it's 'Do X or lose your supernatural template' with the rules for a geas actively ruling out any effect that would kill the target, hurt their loved ones or be physically impossible as tasks you can impose.

#

Also costs pemanent willpower and permanent glamour to lay a geas that powerful.

#

Boo, can't find that scene from the Code Geass Sequel where the protagonist goes 'Save as many lives as you have killed, or kill yourself'. As that's more or less how the capstone works.

#

You can't force someone to end themselves as the task but you can impose it as the failure effect.

#

Spring 5 can make a vampire human until the next sunrise, as it can restore anything to life (Including the undead) though only very briefly.

#

...okay, it takes Wayfare 3 + Fae 5 for Changelings to go to the Umbra but unlike woofs, they can bring people with them when they do.

#

...oh, okay then. The example Unleashing of Chicanery is a bloody spiderman reference.

#

It's mephisto's deal making the entire world forget that Peter Parker is Spiderman

#

That also really puts the scope of Unleashing in full display.

craggy coyote
mighty zephyr
#

Sounds right

marble sorrel
craggy coyote
#

something like that. I believe vampires can add generic blood points to amp physical stats to their normal max, and then potence/celerity/fort go behind the human maxiums

#

so while even a thin rag of a vampire can rival a power lifter with enough vitae, you need potence to truly go beyond human limits

mighty zephyr
#

Wait hold on

#

Fuck you mean max trait of 2

#

Oh, disciplines

#

This chart sucks

marble sorrel
#

...I though that was stats

mighty zephyr
#

It is stats for everyone else except those

#

Where its disciplines

marble sorrel
#

'I am the peak of sixteenth generation potential!' loses to a particularly bright high schooler in a spelling bee <- The joke I was about to make when I thought it was stats.

#

...oh, they just outright made 'Conversion Therapy But For Fae' in C20 as one of the things players can encounter/fight.

In earlier editions it was more of a not fantastic 'therapy is bad' writeup but C20 refocused it into 'What? No. That's not even a real psychological diagnosis. This is guys convincing parents to send their kids away to be 'Made Normal'. Hell, most of the kids taken and abused are not even Changelings. They're LGBT and have homophobic parents or are acting out for entirely normal kid reasons'.

# 
Bellerophon still operates in the black despite these refutations. It is the latest in a long line of medical cons preying on the fears of caring parents to make a quick dollar and enforce a draconian view of “normalcy.”
#

That's a good way to redo it, keeping the core and losing a lot of the 'ooof'.

# 
Renewal in Faith Fellowships
Derisively known by changelings as the “pray the fae away” camps, the Renewal fellowships are run by the First Church of Honeycutt, LLC, headed by fire-and-brimstone televangelist Reverend Allan Honeycutt. Honeycutt is affiliated with the American Christian Telenetwork; ACT sponsors his apocalyptic airtime every Sunday morning on a variety of faith-based cable stations. Renewal in Faith owns vast tracts of land in several states, offering “salvation from the Devil and a path back to God.”

The average day for campers includes hours of pointless manual labor, prayer, and mandatory group confession. Though these camps are officially unaffiliated with Bellerophon, patients who prove to be resistant to the treatments the Foundation offers often find themselves shipped off to one of the fellowship camps for an “alternative course of therapy.”

I am not kidding about the conversion therapy comparison.

nimble gale
#

Pray the fae away Jesus Christ

compact dune
nimble gale
#

writes down plot idea

#

'conversion camp run by black spiral dancers for poaching kinfolk who don't know they're kinfolk'

#

... honestly maybe a little too nightmarish

fair tapir
#

seems like a Changeling or a Mage plot, potentially

nimble gale
#

it can work for all three tbh

high current
#

RenegadeCon today, with the new books announcement section being in about 4 hours

#

fingers crossed for something about M5 🤞

fair tapir
marble sorrel
#

If I was doing that, I'd have the Autumn People capable of draining not just Glamour but Rage/Gnosis/Quintessence.

#

As all of those are emotional and a rejection of the 'mundane'.

#

And Autumn people actively drain magic from around them, beating it to death on wills of cold iron.

#

So a werewolf stuck there is in not really in danger of dying but is in danger of Losing The Wolf.

high current
#

new books announced on RenegadeCon
V5: Live from the Succubus Club
W5: Chronicle of the Black Labyrinth
W5: The Coming Destruction
H5: Legacy of Defiance

#

Live from the Succubus Club helps you portray Kindred entertainers or nomads: aspiring rockstars or any other type of vampire chasing Fame or belonging among the kine. Travel between mortal cities and Kindred domains. Open your own Succubus Club or imitate it. Play with mortals, or use them to slake your Hunger. Make a name for yourself among the living and the dead!
11 new merits, 9 new flaws, and 7 new Discipline Powers.

mighty zephyr
#

Hella

high current
#

Chronicle of the Black Labyrinth seems to be an in-universe document similar to the Book of Nod/Erciyes Fragments/Days of Fire

mighty zephyr
#

Yeah

high current
#

oh, it was a thing for Revised edition originally, this is an updated version similar to what Renegade did for the Book of Nod

#

The Coming Destruction seems to be the W5 answer to the Crimson Gutter, an introductory chronicle that can also be used as a storyteller toolbox

#

Legacy of Defiance is primarily about playing someone descended from or trained by another Hunter, Winchester Bros style, but also includes some new Drives and cell advantages

#

i wasnt able to listen in for the full thing but given i didnt see anything about a Mage book I'm assuming there was no mention of M5, so if we're getting news about it this month it'll be directly from White Wolf

mighty zephyr
#

WW makes the core books yeah

untold elm
#

damn still no c5 or m5

mighty zephyr
#

C5 isnt happening for a few years

untold elm
#

and some day a few years will be Now

marble sorrel
#

I really want to see what C5 tries to do with it, though I worry they'll basicly make it 'Oh, we turned Dreaming into Lost because that works more with our general 5th ed setup'.

#

Still, I'm hopeful it will be a good successor instead of that.

rapid glacier
#

It could also be a good successor and also do that

marble sorrel
#

...I mean, it wouldn't really be a successor if it did that, is sorta my point.

rapid glacier
#

I’ve got no skin that game I’ve never played either changeling but I like the 5th Ed stuff so far

marble sorrel
#

As Dreaming and Lost are dramatically different games/rather incompatible.

#

Like to go with the most fundamental basic difference:

What are Fey?

Lost: Horrible, Inhuman Monsters Who Can't Properly Comprehend Humans And Steal Us For Their Amusement. Deeply Terrifying.
Dreaming: You! You're a fey. You're deeply connected to the hopes and dreams of humanity and its your deep connection that gives you your power as you help humans achieve their goals and make the world a more joyful place.

nimble gale
#

yeah, they're very different games with very different tones

high current
#

worth noting that there's a stat block in the V5 core book for a Faerie, and it refers to them as a sidhe

#

W5 also has a statblock for an "Irrational Fae", and it talks about them being older than spirits and speaking in the language of a season

marble sorrel
#

Sidhe are a subtype of them, one of their kith. The historical nobles.

mighty zephyr
#

Theres also Lost style changelings in H5

#

And in Book of Hungry Names theres a fae that just breaks all the rules

#

They havent decided anything yet and I imagine it will be some mix of the two

marble sorrel
#

...I'm not sure how you'd mix the two while keeping it coherant but I guess we'll see

#

The less Lost there is in them, the better imo. The latest edition of Dreaming should be primarily based on...Dreaming, not on an entirely different game that shares the same name.

worthy sundial
#

i mean im p sure dreaming still had fucked up scary fae

high current
#

yeah what we have so far is entirely defined by an outsider's perspective and the assumption that they're going to be antagonists so, they lean towards the 'inhuman monsters' sort

marble sorrel
#

Oh it does, they're just not really like Lost's fucked up scary fae.

#

Basicly: Fae have multiple ways to gain glamour. 4/5 of them are healthy and good for people. The 5th...is very much not.

worthy sundial
#

true
one easy out is to just do a cofd true demons vs dtd demons thing

high current
#

but also thats just kind of going off mythology rather than either game's specific interpretations

hybrid dock
#

I do love fallen’s demons…

mighty zephyr
#

Here is hoping iterative design means we get something Lost like

marble sorrel
#

Like the only place I could see them putting a more lost-like changeling would be ironically with the enemies of the Dreaming Changelings.

#

The Fomorians.

#

Who feed on Nightmares, rather than Dreams.

high current
#

5e so far has been avoiding using the specific word demon, actually; the Baali instead deal with the aapilu(which are essentially the Beast given form), and Kupala(of Koldunic Sorcery fame) isn't defined beyond being the name of the 'demon field of the Carpathians' associated with the Old Clan

mighty zephyr
#

I think hunter uses demons as just like

#

Satan demons

marble sorrel
#

Hunter can use whateve term it wants, it's player characters don't know shit about the supernatural.

high current
#

ig i mean 'avoided defining what demons are' rather than 'avoided using the term demon'

mighty zephyr
#

Yeah

#

Infernalism isnt a thing anymore at least

high current
#

like, the aapilu seem like a type of demon, but they're far from everything a demon can be, if they even qualify

mighty zephyr
#

They're not really demons so much as like

#

Fragments of the antediluvians

#

Sins made manifest by the blood

marble sorrel
#

Previously, Kupala was a demon and I'm pretty sure Aapilu are supposed to be not such.

worthy sundial
#

it is gonna interesting how theyll do demon if they ever get to that point

marble sorrel
#

I'm not sure if they'll keep Kupula a demon

mighty zephyr
#

They've said they probably aren't doing demon as a book

#

But fallen might cameo

marble sorrel
#

Same reason Hunter lost the Invested

mighty zephyr
#

Imbued

marble sorrel
#

Fancy Hunters

mighty zephyr
#

Its also less the devs and more audiences

hybrid dock
#

Awwww

high current
#

it's certainly possible to make a demon-like character, but yeah they presumably wont be a thing in 5e

worthy sundial
#

i think the main issue is the whole christianity bit

mighty zephyr
#

There isnt a big market for Christian centric religious horror

high current
#

im genuinely curious if/how M5 is going to handle Nephandi tbh

hybrid dock
#

I guess I understand but now I’m sad

mighty zephyr
#

I am hoping Nephandi is just a political designation

#

Like left handed

high current
#

like, will it just be the ones that deal with the wyrm and other weird deep umbra spirits? rooThink

marble sorrel
#

I'd be curious where they got the audience info there...as well, Demon had plenty against it beyond religious horror. It dropped at a bad time, in the middle of an event and got very little support.

nimble gale
#

I think there's sitll a market for religious horror, it's just not a safe market

#

and after The Politics Event paradox really wants the world of darkness to stay safe

mighty zephyr
#

Not really

hybrid dock
#

;-;

mighty zephyr
#

They also did market research according to them

worthy sundial
#

i suppose it Has been a while since like

#

a christian centric religious horror rpg released

high current
#

i mean, Kult vvvSip

hybrid dock
#

I need to continue working on my Christian rpg project…

high current
#

but thats a niche as hell game afaik, sadly

worthy sundial
#

there was also a zak s game i forget the name of

#

but thats two compared to the deluge in the 90s to early 00s

hybrid dock
#

;-;

nimble gale
#

I'm going to be honest I don't trust market research to be that accurate, but if you have a source link I'll give it a read to see their methodology at least

high current
#

zak s
gross

mighty zephyr
#

But yeah like, WoD is definitely still edgy and shit, i just think the writers dont want to deal with labeling religions as ontologically false and evil

worthy sundial
#

tbf they could jsut Not Do That

hybrid dock
#

Yeah

worthy sundial
#

but that would take a lot of revision on demons part

mighty zephyr
#

They could but I also feel like

#

If they do that to demon

nimble gale
#

They already had a built-in reason in base DtF to make things Not All False, given the layers-of-reality conceit

mighty zephyr
#

You are gonna alienate the previous base

hybrid dock
#

I mean maybe

marble sorrel
#

Honestly, not really. Demon slots pretty easily into a situation where it's not doing that.

worthy sundial
#

yeag

hybrid dock
#

But tbh from what I read about demon

#

The main problem is the earthbound

mighty zephyr
#

The layers of reality conceit is very thought terminating imo

#

Its a very non explanation

nimble gale
#

what does thought terminating mean

hybrid dock
#

The rest of the demon shit doesn’t really make other religions false or evil it just makes shit complicated

#

The earthbound however do invoke the whole “ah but other religions are actually evil demons”! Which is the problem

#

I tbh quite liked the layers of reality bit.

Maybe I’m just a fake fan or something but I found it to at least be interesting in potential

#

Whether or not they used that potential is another matter entirely

marble sorrel
#

And I'm pretty sure you could keep the earthbound the earthbound by just going 'Yep, the earthbound make cults for themselves' without trying to imply they had anything to do with any religion in particular.

nimble gale
#

I mean if you're a fake fan so am I, it's one of my favorite conceits from dtf

marble sorrel
#

I mean, cults do really exist.

hybrid dock
#

But I don’t think the concept is as much of a lost cause

#

Demon, that is

#

I think there’s a lot of fertile ground to work with

A lot of themes and concepts I fucking adore

hybrid dock
worthy sundial
nimble gale
#

A lot of apologizing for Austrailia being like that

hybrid dock
#

If you’re creative you can also stretch the definition of cult too

#

To include shit like cults of personality

nimble gale
#

(still my favorite DtF PC I ever had)

hybrid dock
#

Or more modern forms of death cult

#

You can invoke evil cult without being a shit to other religious beliefs

marble sorrel
#

"Oh no, the Earthbound has a podcast."

hybrid dock
#

Exactly!!!!

#

Or earthbound servants with podcasts

nimble gale
#

... oh god an earthbound influence a manosphere podcaster...

hybrid dock
#

“Here’s our guest, our producer ‘the ominous evil possessed statue of the Virgin Mary who cries blood’”

nimble gale
#

*influencing

worthy sundial
#

i mean i think the other thing here is just kinda like
a fundamentalist christian moral view of the world

hybrid dock
#

And I dunno I really like the slight Christian vibes too! They’re important to me at least.

I think there’s a lot of potential and fertile ground for demon that can fix a lot of its issues

#

I don’t think you need to take a fundamentalist angle with it, though tbh I think some of the Christian angle is important

mighty zephyr
#

If they make it non christian I dont think the old fans would like it and I think it would struggle to attract new fans too

hybrid dock
#

I know it’ll probably never happen but gosh I really loved fallen

marble sorrel
#

...I'm also not 100% sure where the fundamentalist Christian moral view of the world comes from when talking about Demon the Fallen. They're all about faith but they're not themed on like the Seven Deadly Sins or such.

hybrid dock
#

No yeah I agree.

I think it needs to be a little bit Christian

#

Yeah it didn’t really read all that fundamentalist

worthy sundial
#

i think theyre definitely important but im more speakin to the difficulties of a possible 5th edition

mighty zephyr
#

But then like the current wod audience is very non christian

hybrid dock
#

It…honestly introduced a lot of heretical ideas but

#

Ah fair

#

Yes yes alas

#

The actual practical issues

#

Which is the audiences for it

worthy sundial
#

well the fundamentalist part is the expansion of cult definitions to involve secularized immoralities ie manosphere podcasters

#

of which demons r responsible for

hybrid dock
#

I just wanted to come in and argue that there is like, genuinely a lot of potential.

But I also understand that potential will probably not be used

marble sorrel
#

...I mean, that was just a joke we were making here.

#

That's not in the actual book

mighty zephyr
#

Thats the big thing is that there isnt a big popular fan base to draw on and not a lot of interest from their new and current fan base

hybrid dock
#

They’re not yeah

worthy sundial
#

im not saying it is?

#

im pointing a flaw in the joke suggestion

marble sorrel
#

...I mean, I'm not sure I'd call that fundamentalist christian...

hybrid dock
#

Yeah

worthy sundial
#

u r blaming The Devil for fucked up shit

hybrid dock
#

Well this is a game about demons

marble sorrel
#

Nah, the devil is nice

hybrid dock
#

So

marble sorrel
#

Earthbound don't like the devil 😛

hybrid dock
#

Presumably some demons are responsible for at least some fucked up shit

#

I feel like it’s not fundamentalist to play with “demons do some bad shit with humans in the game about demons”

#

Like yeah irl humans are responsible for a lot of human evils.

But this is a world with vampires, werewolves, fae, and demons

#

So at least some of those might be responsible for some evils

#

“Evil demonic manosphere podcast” seems in line

worthy sundial
#

this is a weird balancing act w/ urban fantasy horror at large yea

marble sorrel
#

If they ever touch on Mummies again they're also going to need to touch on real religions too but I'm not sure mummies are on the table.

#

Or well...Changeling. The Fomorians and the Tuatha De Danann are major characters in that.

mighty zephyr
#

I think a big thing also is that the new direction theyre trying to go with things also carries the idea of making the game hostile to fascist co opting

hybrid dock
#

Mhm mhm

#

It’s understandable

mighty zephyr
#

So I imagine they wont make a game even remotely adhering to christian nationalist orbits

hybrid dock
#

Yeah

#

It’s a definite risk

#

I can understand why they don’t take it.

#

alas ;-;

marble sorrel
#

Which is a bit amusing as Demon was a game about empathy by its nature.

mighty zephyr
#

Mage is also about fighting oppression and freedom of expression and importance of culture but alas

#

Playable Technocracy

marble sorrel
#

I mean, I'm pretty sure if you're talking Fascism Thule nonsense was really more Tradition-side.

mighty zephyr
#

The TU as an organization backed the Axis

nimble gale
#

Given the average playable technocrat is more in line with the friends of courage than control, I'm not sure that's a negative.

#

Also like. So did the traditions?

hybrid dock
mighty zephyr
#

No, some hermetics and verbena didn

nimble gale
#

Almost the entire Verbena and a ton of etherites and hermetics?

rapid glacier
mighty zephyr
nimble gale
#

And there were sections of the union that didn't back the axis at all, too, which caused a civil war?

rapid glacier
#

….who?!?! I’ve had like six playthroughs and haven’t seen this

#

Goddamn what else did I miss lmao

mighty zephyr
#

There's a cheevo for binding it

rapid glacier
#

Oh I bet it’s tied to that one gift

#

Cause the Pumpkin King one I thought would have been but he’s just a harvest spirit and a jerk

marble sorrel
#

...also notably both the Union and the Traditions teamed up during WW2 to fight fascists. The Virtual Adepts and the Sons of Ether.

#

That's why the Sons vouched for the Virtual Adepts later

#

Like Alan Turing was a Technocratic Union member.

mighty zephyr
#

Okay but the TU are also currently still fascist

rapid glacier
#

Also Alan Turing wasn’t treated very well post-war iirc

#

Or during it tbh

mighty zephyr
#

He was assassinated by the TU yeah

#

Which caused the VAs to defect

rapid glacier
#

Oh I meant IRL but that tracks for what I know of the Union

#

Which admittedly isn’t a lot, Mage is a pretty big lore hole for me rn

marble sorrel
#

I mean a notable chunk of the Traditions are also pretty damn fascist. The Order of Hermes is right there. They're just losing fascists.

#

They did plenty of fascism and imperialism when they had the boot

mighty zephyr
#

Well yeah but i dont like the hermetics either

#

But the vast majority of the traditions are colonized or marginalized people

marble sorrel
#

...I mean, as much as the majority of the world as a whole is...but they're also doing stuff like 'Putting the guys who are sad the Victorian age ended on the council' with the Sons of Ether, who were very into colonialism when they had power.

mighty zephyr
#

Well yeah but nothing about this makes the the TU less fascist, which is my point, not that the Traditions are magically pure good guys

nimble gale
#

And boht sides have people who aren't fascist working against the fascist-supporting power structure of the upper levels of their faction?

mighty zephyr
#

The TU is still the imperial apparatus and The Man

#

Making them the good guys is just kinda antithetical to Mages thesis statement

marble sorrel
#

The Traditions are literally only not The Man because they lost the war.

mighty zephyr
#

Not really

#

Most of them just want to be left alone to do their own stuff

#

Theres not really any ink to justify the whataboutism

nimble gale
#

a lot of them literally want to retrun back to the era when awakened were godlike mage-kings ruling over sleepers with an iron fist with no checks or balances????

#

that's explicit text???

mighty zephyr
#

The stated goal of most tradition mages is just personal ascension

#

There is no real apparatus of the Traditions to usurp or maintain control

#

They quite simply want to stop the fascist guys who run the Pogrom

#

It is, in fact, illegal by the Traditions to force your beliefs on others, and it is criminal to do so

#

This also, again, does not make the TU less bad

#

The TU are the arm of western imperialism, and have always been that

marble sorrel
#

The Celestial Chorus supported the Spanish colonialism the Americas.

nimble gale
#

And I'm arguging that just because the leaders are terrible does not mean 'Technocrat working to make the system better from inside' shouldn't be a viable pc option, given that both sides have the stated goal of 'make humanity better'? and that further writing on the union, especially in M20, has moved away from them being just imperialist fascists, quite explicitly?

hybrid dock
#

“The tenth chorus of heaven is problematic tbh.”

mighty zephyr
#

The last real ink we have of the TU in the most modern m20 book has them funding and supporting anti black and indigenous groups to attack Dreamspeaker communities

#

They are the US empire, they embody it, and right now and for a while the US empire has been fascist

#

They cant not be that and still be the TU

marble sorrel
#

I for one look forward to the new Mage plotline: Help RFK Jr counterspell vaccines.

mighty zephyr
#

RFK Jr

hybrid dock
#

Rfj kr…

#

Kunior…

nimble gale
#

I am litearlly checking the operations theatre stuff in technocracy reloaded and I'm not seeing that, voy.

mighty zephyr
#

This is in the lore of traditions book that came out last year

#

In the dreamspeaker section

#

And like, I don't think anyone here is a fascist for liking the TU or anything like that

worthy sundial
#

i mean like realistically
u cant do a The Man faction w/o the whole representing the western capitalist-imperialist hegemony unless u want it to be toothless

mighty zephyr
#

But they are undeniably the avenue right wingers used to co opt mage

worthy sundial
#

& for all its faults, wod does try to not be toothless

mighty zephyr
#

Like even "minorities would be just as bad as white people if they were in charge" is like genuine white supremacist propaganda

marble sorrel
#

I mean, this was more 'the white people in the Traditions have done plenty of genocide as it is'

nimble gale
#

The same section of that book also states that the kha'vadi are willign to work with the union, especially when the union comes by to help the communities they've sworn to protect (which by the union book is getting more and more common). And like. I don't think writing away any possibility for bad actors to co-opt your game is, realistically or ethically, the right option.

#

designing against bad actors only goes so far before it renders your product... well, shitty, tbh

#

You can't design away bad faith

worthy sundial
#

i mean didnt mage originally release w/ just the traditions as playable

mighty zephyr
#

Yes

#

And in every core except 20th thats how it worked

nimble gale
#

but starting in second there was always a technocracy handbook

#

just like how in vampire you'd get sabbat handbooks

marble sorrel
worthy sundial
mighty zephyr
#

That actually is the point being made largely

worthy sundial
#

oh neat

#

i do think there is the secondary issue of the traditions being a blanket Opposition to The Man which mean its a kinda mixed bag of progressive and regressive elements bc left & right tendencies r fueled by wills to change the status quo

#

tho iirc the books do explore that contradiction

marble sorrel
#

Like the Sons of Ether are purely there because they lost a power struggle, not because they had any moral objection.

nimble gale
#

They've never Really gotten along because of it

#

like, if the TU wins the ascension war, the whole organization wins. If the traditions od, uh

#

now it's a second acsension war

#

only there's nine sides this time

marble sorrel
#

I think also just from a general 'writing a decent story' perspective it you don't have a playable Technocracy than a lot of the big recent plot events like Threat Null don't...do anything.

#

As it kinda just blurs Technocracy and Threat Null together into a grey suited non-playable soup.

#

...I also feel like non-playable technocracy also leads to some of Mage's more problematic theming

#

Where it goes 'Science = Bad'. With both Sons of Ether and Virtual Adepts trying to push back on it but both are very much on the 'not real science' end.

#

And as someone who grew up in an Anti-Vax community...that is rather uncomfortable to me.

mighty zephyr
#

You can just frame it as authoritarianism bad and not science bad

#

Its all you have to do

#

And currently like, big technology companies ARE bad

marble sorrel
#

Sure but also notably...a lot of the fascists going around right now are very anti-science.

worthy sundial
#

u could delineate between science as practice & the social forces & institutions that go into science

marble sorrel
#

...snrk

@nimble gale if the Order of Hermes had won against the Order of Reason, they'd be Malifaux's Guild.

worthy sundial
#

this is just kinda the bed they made tho tbh

nimble gale
#

you're in fact correct

#

(at iki)

marble sorrel
#

Some Salty Technocrat: "Why the hell are people screaming that vaccines are fake and that HRT is evil? Do you know how much effort it took to get those in consensus?"

hybrid dock
#

Well I have some complaints about how they did it! My damn hrt works too slow!!!!

mighty zephyr
#

Could have just been a spell done and dusted in 5 minutes

#

Smh

marble sorrel
#

The current anti-science backlash could be very interesting to include in a mage book. Where so many fascists claim to speak the truth when they actively push back against science's fact finding being more progressive than they like.

worthy sundial
#

getting paradox backlash from making transgenderizing weed

marble sorrel
#

In other news: Man, Changelings have super easy HRT. Takes a single dot in an art to get 'Yep, sorted that out'.

#

Takes a couple of dots in Actor if you want to zap other people with it.

hybrid dock
marble sorrel
#

I do appreciate C20 taking some hefty steps against 'science bad', when earlier changling could occasionally be a bit that way.

# 
Often called “Gwydion’s right hand” due to the close ties between the two houses, House Dougal remains a steadfast ally of the leaders of the Seelie Court, though in recent years a rift of sorts has started to develop over the Smiths’ increasing involvement in the Autumn World. In particular, the house has made concerted efforts to popularize science and invention in an effort to turn humanity away from a cold, sterile future and back toward one of wonder and imagination. It’s a cause the Dougal have rallied behind — as the Smiths like to point out, it was the moon landing that sparked the return of the sidhe, not a renaissance faire.
hybrid dock
#

Funky..

nimble gale
#

There's a bunch of seelie nockers who work for NASA's jet propulsion lab IIRC

marble sorrel
#

Yeah. There's also a few Fey game designers mentioned

#

As video games are a new modern version of artistic expression

#

House Dougal is listed as part of the reason 3D printing has gotten as big as it is.

#

So I dunno, I guess the gun that got Shinzo Abe was a Fey Wonder.

nimble gale
#

LMAO

mighty zephyr
#

The doohicky is a 5 success wits+craft roll

marble sorrel
#

Oh, there is it. Actor 5 (Works on Complete Stranger Humans) + Scene 5 (Hits multiple areas that all have a thematic link) for your gun being able to destroy an organization.

#

Actor is weird targeting but kinda fun/fits the changeling themes.

#

It's based not on distance but on connection.

#

You only need 1 dot to affect people you dearly care about.

#

But you need 5 to hit strangers you've never even seen.

#

It makes Changelings have some issues with '3 mooks who don't even have names' jump you.

#

But lets them be real mean to Established Antagonists.

pure mauve
#

Is this for NWoD discussion (which I think is called Chronicles of Darkness now), or OWoD only? Because I’m randomly thinking about Geist again and wondering if anyone has played it.

velvet sparrow
#

It's for both!

nimble gale
#

It's for oWoD, NW/CoD, and WoD5, yeah. I think we talk about curseborn in here sometimes too?

pure mauve
#

Is Geist like… even remotely popular? Because I randomly got Obsessed with it long ago and recently looked over the page to learn what 2e looks like and now it won’t leave my brain for a little while.

worthy sundial
#

its got its following but im not too intuned to the actual communitysphere for chronicles

pure mauve
#

Fair

#

I just learned the names of the Geist Burdens and immediately forgot them, but… museum curator who refused to stay dead because he feared the museum collection would be mismanaged or sold off or kept from the public in his absence.

#

As a slightly different twist on the Hungry (I remembered the name).

#

Just a random character idea I wanted to share.

marble sorrel
#

Geist is pretty popular. I'm a fan. I like 1e a bit more than 2e but it's very fun.

radiant marsh
marble sorrel
#

In V5, which clans are currently Sabbat? A lot of them ended up all over the place in the big shakeup.

worthy sundial
#

the sabbat is basically gone in v5

marble sorrel
#

I mean, if you're in america, yes.

worthy sundial
#

corebook had lasombra & tzimisce still under sabbat but the players guide mentions them both being part of the camarilla now

marble sorrel
#

But they're noted to still be about in various places of the world.

marble sorrel
worthy sundial
#

looking at the black hand book, theres no specific sabbat clan anymore

marble sorrel
#

Kinda weird that neither of the founder clans are part of the Sabbat any more.

worthy sundial
#

v5 sabbat subordinate clan to the paths essentially

#

to the point that the book's npc sections uses them in place of clans in other books

rapid glacier
#

Any clan in V5 can be a sabbat holdover but the founding clans either joined the Anarchs or the Cam

#

Lasombra went Cam and Tzimisce went Anarch and most of their antitribu are either Final Death’d or in hiding

#

Lasombra basically had to hunt down their own clan members to prove that they could be trusted in the Cam, so there is a hell of a lot less of them than there were like two decades ago

#

Tzimisce went Anarch for reasons I don’t get but seem to be characterized as kind of wanting to be left alone but not trusting the Cam enough, might also not trust the Lasombra

#

I misspoke, Lasombra antitribu are the ones that survived and hunted down the other Lasombra, their clan symbol even reflects this in the players guide

marble sorrel
#

Tzimisce: "I am a literal noble. I'm also a member of the Anarchs."

rapid glacier
#

Nope those ones are gone for the most part

#

The ones that survived are the ones who respect traditions and ownership more than titles, and could adjust their own ideologies to something that could exist with the other two Sects

marble sorrel
#

...wouldn't they be the primary ones left? Old Clan Tzimisce were the ones that didn't go Sabbat.

#

So with the Sabbat slaughtered...

rapid glacier
#

There might be some elders like that sure, the Inconnu are still kicking around

#

And Independents are still a thing

#

If any of the two founder clans joined a Sect it’s mostly to avoid being killed or to enjoy the safety of the local area they live in

#

A Lasombra would join the Anarchs if it had little choice between that or FD, Tzimisce are still useful and feared enough to be wanted in the first place , etc

#

The Sabbat that is still around exists as mostly clueless shovelheads and Rainbow Six hyper-competent terrorist cells, and neither group communicates well as a Sect

marble sorrel
#

...I'll admit, it feels kinda...Global War On Terror-y to have the Sabbat be mostly in the middle east now, considering one of the things they've been wanting to do is be less 'Welcome to the middle east, the middle east vampires are a stereotype'.

rapid glacier
#

That’s probably because the Second Inquisition had their big hurrah in the States, and the Sabbat overseas didn’t get hit as hard because they weren’t as obvious targets, whereas the big Sabbat holdings in New England got decimated by either SI or the combined forces of the Cam and Anarchs when they made a truce

#

I wanna say there is like a side blurb in one of the lore posts that suggests that at least someone in the Cam thinks The Beckoning is Sabbat induced somehow and other people call them crazy, but who knows

marble sorrel
#

Sure, it just feels a bit like they traded out 'Welcome to the Middle East, our Vampires are Arabian Nights Characters' for 'Welcome to the Middle East, our Vampires are Vamp-Qa’ida'. Which isn't less 'ooof', just also a much more modern warfare 'oof'.

But I guess that's the nature of being a Very American-Focused Game.

rapid glacier
#

I don’t think I’d characterize them quite like Vamp-qaida, but they’re definitely a group whose members are either misled youth trying to be cool but can’t hang out with the other Sects for some reason or those licks 100% all-in on killing anyone and everyone lower generation than 8th

marble sorrel
#

Oh yes, they're not literally Vamp-Qa'ida but pushing them back to the middle east definitely made their terrorist-y nature take on a much more specific tone. Where they're no longer in the 'civilized' world but are running around the middle east on their religious crusade. Doesn't help that the Sabbat already had religious tones.

rapid glacier
#

They are absolutely still in the states and Western Europe and Australia and basically everywhere, they just aren’t in major power centers like their counterparts

#

Even the Ashirra still have ‘territory’, where the Sabbat kind of squat in other Sect districts or counties and cause what trouble they can get away with, even in the Middle East where they are more common

#

Losing the majority of their leadership really hurt their capacity for coordination and organization, and that makes it hard to hang onto places without SI or the other Sects sending a wetworks team out to stake your ass outside for the sun

worthy sundial
rapid glacier
#

I mean narratively speaking, they’re useful antagonists to have operating as just absolute fuckers or ‘fodder mooks’, whichever the story needs at the time, or even primary antagonists who just have this morality that is almost understandable and then the pseudo-religious fascist rhetoric starts and then you go ‘ooooooohhhhhh these guys are nuts’

worthy sundial
#

when i was first flipping thru v5

rapid glacier
#

Nah Jyhad means Elders vs Fledglings/Neonates as a generational struggle to get or maintain power structures, it’s not an actual war (Unless you’re Sabbat, then they take that term quite a bit more literally)

marble sorrel
#

I'll admit I'm a bit salty that they literally put the Sabbat in Amalut.

#

Which felt very 'okay, one group of middle eastern vampires out, another group in!'

rapid glacier
#

I don’t know where that is, I don’t remember many specific areas listed in the Sabbat book

marble sorrel
#

It's the capital city of the Banu Haqim.

#

So they literally kicked out the Hassassin-themed clan to put in the Terrorists.

#

Which felt very...on the nose

rapid glacier
#

Oh that may be why, because the when the SI showed up and started stomping on people a lot of the ancestral holdings for basically every clan took bestings, they don’t really have like Clan homeland territories anymore

#

The big one that comes to mind is getting drone-strike’d by the Vatican (lol Tremere)

marble sorrel
#

...how? Even the tremere found it nearly impossible to find their way there. It's mystically warded to be impossible to see unless you've been invited.

rapid glacier
#

Canonically that starts in 2009 and doesn’t end till like 2016? I think k?

#

I dunno, I think it’s a handwave to make everyone lose their cool WoW fortress of vampires arbitrarily

#

Putting the Sabbat there makes a little sense if they managed to win a fight for it, cause the Banu Haqim aren’t a very large clan to begin with and many Sabbat believers think/thought if you throw enough shovelheads at a problem eventually it will solve itself

marble sorrel
#

It also kinda messes up the plot they had for them. As like...Ur-Shulgi was there. One of the few 4th generations still about and the one that shattered tremere's blood curse on the Haqim casually. And the Sabbat got it...somehow?

#

And Ur-Shulgi coming back was a Big Metaplot Deal for the Banu Haqim.

rapid glacier
#

Maybe the Sabbat ate him, who knows

#

I don’t have a baby Haqim player in my game to ask, and they Sabbat they’re fighting are specific survivors from the SI raids in Boston

marble sorrel
#

I dunno. I feel like it makes the Banu Haqim much less interesting when you basicly wipe out all the stuff the clan was up to. XD

rapid glacier
#

Might go read the Sabbat book and see if they have for explanations

marble sorrel
#

Alamut was kinda absolutely central for most of their cultural rituals and their mystical ones.

rapid glacier
marble sorrel
#

...it was never 'heathens' they punished...

rapid glacier
#

Retcons and whatnot kinda stripped some local flavors out of the clans entirely, in favor of more ideological differences instead of cultural is kind of a WoD5 theme

marble sorrel
#

And like, the Banu Haqim are not just a bloodline. They were a specific organization.

#

Hence the name.

#

Haqim was a specific guy

rapid glacier
#

Yeah the two bloodlines part of a small sub-Sect, I remember that part from past editions

marble sorrel
#

Three bloodlines. Warrior, Sorcerer and Vizier.

rapid glacier
#

Was it three? I remember Assamites and Children of Haqim, and those are the two that got smushed together in V5’s Banu Haqim

marble sorrel
#

Those are two names for the same group.

#

Assamites is what the Cam called them because they didn't know/care about the right name.

nimble gale
#

Banu Haqim/Children of Haqim is the endonym for them, Assamites the exonym

rapid glacier
#

Ahhhh okay I thought they were two distinct lines in the older editions

#

Well that explains the name change better

marble sorrel
#

When it doubt, blame racism 😛

#

(It was a good name change/a good justification for it)

#

But yeah, the three distinct lines were part of the blood ritual that each Banu Haqim took part in at Alamut after siring.

#

When they took on a specific role/joined a specific bloodline

rapid glacier
#

Still, V5 is kind of a update and soft reboot, and it wouldn’t surprise me if a lot of things got restructured and lost along the way

marble sorrel
#

I think my big issue is sorta...there doesn't feel like there has been anything gained for all that's been lost. If that makes sense?

#

Ban Haqim were already entirely playable in Cam cities, they were just one of the Independent Clans.

rapid glacier
#

It doesn’t have to gain anything imo, the setting itself is still good and the stories you can tell and the characters that can inhabit it are still interesting and feel genuine

#

Throw out the stuff that is bad, shore up the weaker areas, sure that’ll work and some of the more specifics and details are gonna get lost or muddied up

marble sorrel
#

Sure but...well, a lot of the interesting cultural aspects are now gone.

#

They're now just 'Shit, we lost the Brujah. I guess we need a Cam Fighty Clan now'

rapid glacier
#

intentionally gone, because a lot of them were insensitive or just plain racist. At the very least, culturally ignorant in many cases

#

Decoupling the cultural aspects allows you to make a character from very different parts of the world with those clans and choices to make some Real Bizzare and Fucked Up Little Guys, which is still one of WoD’s big strong points

marble sorrel
#

...

#

Not cultural as in tied to real life culture

#

Cultural as in they have their own culture.

rapid glacier
#

They still have their own cultures in the clans they’re just written without directly co opting real life ones

marble sorrel
#

Okay so what culture do the Banu Haqim have still?

#

The 'compelled to drink people' thing isn't culture. That's literally a curse the Baali put on them.

#

...and like, the First Example Banu Haqim from V20's Book of the Clans is Russian. They've never been restricted on what part of the world they can be from.

rapid glacier
#

Probably the stuff in their clan description, that they take a sort of spiritual view of being a vampire and have a strong, almost fanatical, view of morality and law systems. They look down on other kindred who ‘misuse their gift of unlife’, even going as far as hunting them down for Final Death (hence their nickname, “Judges”). They’re kind of scary and threatening to other kindred who have heard stories of them using a lot of Diablerie but not many actually know this for fact because there aren’t a ton of Banu Haqim around and they tend not to leave witness (outside of the Amaranth)

#

This is all the stuff I can remember off the top of my head, because I woke up like an hour ago and haven’t got out of bed yet

marble sorrel
#

I'll admit, I'm particularly grumpy because they are my favorite clan.

#

And it feels like most of the interesting culture for them got gutted

#

But it's half past midnight, so I should sleep.

rapid glacier
#

I get that, my favorite was Nos and they made them less fucked yo little freaks, somehow

mighty zephyr
#

Clan Culture isnt really an emphasized thing since the focus is more on individuals

rapid glacier
#

Mostly as a gameplay conceit I think

mighty zephyr
#

Its just because the focus is on personal horror and your individual story, and clan culture is not always applicable worldwide

marble sorrel
# rapid glacier Mostly as a gameplay conceit I think

I feel like a good way to handle it would have been to take a page out of Exalted's book. Where they decoupled appearance from 'Are you actually pretty' and made it more about how much effect your looks get. So you can be appearance 5 or appearance 5 (hideous). Helps avoid that 'Well, Nos have no need to ever spend any points on appearance'

So you'd get 'all nos are hideous but if you want to be notably scary rather than just icky, you'll want to still spend dots on appearance'.

rapid glacier
#

That’s the case here, you can be Charismatic and Big Ugly, I meant more ‘Nos no longer so hideous they break the Masquerade’

mighty zephyr
#

Also Nos are still definitely little freaks

#

You can still be A Big Bat Guy

#

Just now its not required that you are automatically a masq violation yeah

#

Now you can just be

rapid glacier
#

The NY by Night Nos is one of my favorite interpretations of the Nosferatu Henchman and he’s kind of a freak for sure

#

I wish we had clanbook splats, maybe someday

mighty zephyr
#

Probably not gonna get that specific

#

Its a different publishing world now

marble sorrel
#

Kinda funny that the v5 Haqim don't have any of their actual bloodline weaknesses (Despite there being several to pick from) and instead they've got the one that was imposed on them by the Baali as a curse.

But the Sorcerer Curse was much more notable in terms of crossovers than Just Vampire Games and V5 is much less crossover friendly, so I can get that.

mighty zephyr
#

Also for the record in V5 its just Banu Haqim

#

Assamites is just not a name for them

#

It is and always was Banu Haqim

#

Unlike the Settites who rebranded to the Ministers in universe

rapid glacier
mighty zephyr
#

Ministry of Love babyyyyy

marble sorrel
#

The Sorcerer Caste 'You show up to spiritual sight as a mage/you can never hide your thaumaturgical skills, which means anyone with any spiritual sight can instantly pick you out of crowds of mortals' was something that sorta mattered a lot more when crossovers were more of a thing/likely wouldn't have worked well in V5.

mighty zephyr
#

Probably not

#

Also outside of Hecata bloodlines aren't really emphasized

rapid glacier
#

What is their name rn, it’s the uh harder to resist fully draining someone? Especially Kindred?

#

Bane*

mighty zephyr
#

Loresheets make Bloodlines mainly a social and political thing

#

Yeah they have to resist frenzy when they taste vampire blood

rapid glacier
#

Oh it’s only Kindred, nice

marble sorrel
#

Yeah, it's the Baali curse I mentioned above.

rapid glacier
#

Be careful with those Long Sippys

marble sorrel
#

The bloodline/loresheet thing is a bit of an issue for Viziers as the clan gets zero in-clan social disciplines but thems the breaks.

mighty zephyr
#

You can just grab presence or dominate from PT if you want to represent it

rapid glacier
#

I thought they got a lore sheet somewhere, do they really not have one?

mighty zephyr
#

They might

#

But I dont think it replaces disciplines like Hecata

rapid glacier
#

Ah

mighty zephyr
#

They talk about the Castes some

rapid glacier
#

Oh yeah the uh ‘Bloodline’ lore sheet

marble sorrel
#

The old Vizier clan weakness was that all of them had a specific art or activity that they find utterly enthralling/find it difficult not to monofocus on if it's around them.

It was actually only the warriors that had the 'drink them up' issue previously as well...curse, not clan weakness.

rapid glacier
#

On the topic of loresheets all of the ones for WtA are kinda bad or boring

marble sorrel
#

Back in previous editions the warriors had 2 mutually exclusive curses going at the same time.

# 
-If you drink vampire blood, you become addicted to drinking and finidng more.
-You can't drink vampire blood.
rapid glacier
#

The most interesting one was the one that ties your PC to the Project Twilight and hoooooo boyyy is that Not Good

mighty zephyr
#

Disagree

#

The non core ones whip

rapid glacier
#

I ricocheted off the ones in Shattered Nation so hard it left a cartoony sound effect that you can hear in my bookshelf to this day

mighty zephyr
#

The Zhyzak one is just objectively hilarious

rapid glacier
#

Yeah I remember calling that loresheets’Protagonitis’

#

Because anyone taking that is gonna become the protagonist of the group pretty quickly, and also maybe a tragic hero figure when she saunters out of the shadows and whoops your ass lmao

mighty zephyr
#

The Zhyzak Everywhere System

marble sorrel
#

...oh, that's funny.

rapid glacier
#

I will concede it is extremely funny to have beef with one specific very famous werewolf

mighty zephyr
#

But yeah like, loresheets work for me when you realize you can just decouple them from The Guy if it doesnt fit your chronicle

rapid glacier
#

It’s like having an Anytime Fitness membership and then getting into the ring with Stone Cold Steve Austin in his prime and getting immediately disassembled

mighty zephyr
#

Also does seem like there is a vizier loresheet

rapid glacier
#

I want more generic sheets

#

I dunno what I’d do with them but I’d like more dumb options or just kind of interesting ones you could take to bend some rules

#

Like there is one in shattered for WtA that lets you take an different auspice Gift once

mighty zephyr
#

Vampire does have a ton just from the head start

rapid glacier
#

That could be huge!

mighty zephyr
#

Also yeah Returning Maiden rules

rapid glacier
#

She does! She’s the best one in the book

#

Not just mechanically interesting but actually interesting as a character

marble sorrel
#

V5 notes that it's primarily the sorcerers and viziers who joined the Camarilla, not the warriors...but the clan disciplines are the Warrior Clan Disciplines and the Weakness is the Warrior Clan Curse. That feels very much a 'Look, with the Brujah gone we wanted a Primarily Stabby Clan in the Cam' design decision. As the Viziers didn't get Celerity and that would make one Much Less of A Stabby Character.

mighty zephyr
#

I just dont think they mechanically are super different, Banu all have the same layout barring specific exceptions

marble sorrel
#

The V5 Translation of their disciplines would Obfuscate, Presence and...Blood Sorcery, I suppose.

#

As Quietus basicly became Blood Sorcery

mighty zephyr
#

So just swapping celerity

#

That seems like you can just do that with PT then yeah

marble sorrel
#

Technically they all had different Quietus versions that did different things but well...Unique Clan Discipline in V5 etc.

#

Like Sorcerer Quietus let one see into the spiritual realm and stab spirits that were still in the Umbra.

nimble gale
#

Vizier quietus made your blood opium instead of poison IIRC?

marble sorrel
#

It also let you reinforce objects with your blood to make them more durable.

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Which was used for preserving historical documents and forging blood-tempered metal.

#

That one would easily be a ritual.

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As it's not a 'you do immediately' thing.

mighty zephyr
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I believe its is a ritual

marble sorrel
#

I know there's a 'you bond with a sword' one, though that's not quite the same thing.

mighty zephyr
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Idk, theres like 3 books of blood Sorcery gubbins and im not particularly into Tremere or Banu Haqim

marble sorrel
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But yes, making your blood addictive/filling the air with intoxicating mist was the primary thing for Vizier Quietus.

pure mauve
#

...how many pips of Protean do you need before you can do Weird Stuff that isn't just an animal or mist?

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Because I'm trying to figure out if vampires or bound are better at being flesh monsters.

velvet sparrow
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NWoD vampires?

pure mauve
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Yeah, since it seems unfair to compare OWoD and NWoD across different splats.

mighty zephyr
#

I think you need about 3-4 to become a flesh monster

pure mauve
#

Caul is kind of interesting because it's not a shapeshifting power, until you get 3 pips and then it's really a shapeshifting power (you invite your Geist to dwell in your flesh, at first gaining pain resistance and durability and taking on some of its attributes, but later letting it freely warp and reshape your flesh).

pure mauve
#

And Caul can't turn into an ordinary animal, which is sometimes more useful than turning into a flesh monster. But you can do this:

Explode into a swarm or fleshly mass, capable of squeezing through any crack.

mighty zephyr
#

You can do that with Protean yeah

pure mauve
#

I sort of miss the Geist 1.0 power system, where you had Keys based on how you died and Manifestations which you took dots in and then combined them to make the actual powers you used, but I can understand it being a lot of overhead, and they kept a lot of the cooler individual effects and just lumped them together.

#

Like, if you have a five-dot Curse, you can do this:

Spend a charge to force the subject to spend Willpower to be noticed.

mighty zephyr
#

Though I think in Requiem the "slip into cracks" power and the "turn into a giant flesh monster" are differrent

marble sorrel
#

Being able to go 'Oh yeah, I have Caul + Water, which gives X effect' felt good.

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It reminds me a bit of how oWoD Changeling has Arts + Realms, though not quite the same.

pure mauve
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I... never actually played Geist, but it was extremely cool. Even if a few individual powers like Curse are a bit better for having taken the best parts from each element and combined them.

marble sorrel
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Where a Changeling can use Hopscotch 1 + Fae to make themselves leap tall buildings in a single bound or Hopscotch 1 + Prop to yeet a car at someone.

pure mauve
#

On the other hand... I never really felt like Geist 1.0 had splats per se? Like, the method of your death determined one of your keys, and then the other key was free for you to choose.

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Also, like Geist 2.0 is a lot better about making it harder to make a character who doesn't want or need to go on adventures.

marble sorrel
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That's sorta something I never really found to be a problem.

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The game doesn't need to make player characters engage with it, that's what 'you're all here to play an RPG together' generally does.

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If that makes sense?

craggy coyote
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As often former Sabbat, wanting to bash a prince's head in on principle is probably common sentiment among the tzim

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as is "My domain is mine, and not something the prince can take, fucking try it"

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You may note, these sentiments heavily overlap with anarch sentiment about any given prince

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More cynically this makes them the states rights to do what motherfuckers of the anarchs

marble sorrel
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Tzimisce: "Stop asking me who pays for the roads!"

craggy coyote
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Average Tzimi Joining the anarchs

marble sorrel
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They will turn up and every time you try to use supernatural powers you get asked 'did you pay the 1?'

pure mauve
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...I don't fully understand how Geists work but I think they made being a Sin-Eater suck a little more? Which I appreciate.

clear delta
pure mauve
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I'm reading from the wiki and I'm not entirely certain what a crisis point is.

#

I... think it's a situation where the Geist compels the Bound to act or lose Synergy?

clear delta
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It's a trauma trigger

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That makes them flip out

pure mauve
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For the Geist or for the Bound? Because I thought Geists forgot their human memories... which doesn't erase the whole possibility of "I have extremely, extremely strong emotions about this and don't know why".

clear delta
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Geist

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They are very feral

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Crisis points start vague and broad, and as you help your geist remember, the triggers become specific

pure mauve
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Ah. Makes sense. ...I increasingly want to play Geist now.

#

I wonder if part of the loss of the key+manifestation power system was to more strongly focus Bound powers? Like, 1e powers were more likely to be "the kinds of things ghosts could do" like controlling elements or technology or stuff, whereas 2e powers are much more focused on specifically interacting with ghosts.

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Curse is still very much "the kind of thing ghosts can do", though, and Caul is also generally more about interacting with the material world... but there's a stronger implication of powers that are more specialized tools for investigating mysteries, resolving emotions, and gazing upon the past to help ghosts.

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But, like... they've lost the ability to throw flames at people.

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Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think they're worse at direct combat than in 1e? I might be misreading but some of their durability which they used to all have got moved to Caul 1, Shroud became a more purely stealth power, and the only direct attacking power (Rage) is specific to the Vengeful.

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And I think it only deals lethal damage to ghosts, unless I'm misreading?

olive citrus
#

I was thinking about getting W20 Umbra and W20 Book of the Wyrm to read before my first W20 campaign since there's a sale going on, if I were to get one more book, what would be good?

nimble gale
#

What do you already have, just core and those two?

olive citrus
nimble gale
#

my pick would be one of rage across the world, kinfolk, or changing breeds I think

olive citrus
nimble gale
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It has pretty good rules for banes iirc, but I don't remember anything deeper, sorry

pure mauve
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...how do werewolves feel about sin-eaters? Because I remember that geists sometimes look like spirits.

mighty zephyr
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They usually assume theyre claimed

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Cuz like

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They pretty much are

pure mauve
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geists are like.. ghosts that have made themselves half-spirit, as I understand it?

nimble gale
#

yeah, they're sort of like, moving towards being Spirits Of The Old Laws, I believe?

mighty zephyr
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They're more like a Magath combination of a ghost and a type of death

pure mauve
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I thought of them as like... sort of a spirit of what they represent? Like, they go from being a specific person who happened to die from overwork, to A Person Dead Of Overwork and they're almost symbolic of that.

#

but I may very well be wrong.

spice abyss
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They're Complicated.

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They are Sufficiently Spirit that most woofs will not make a distinction.

pure mauve
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...do sin-eaters know about spirits? I'm not sure if they'd have any ability to interact with those frequencies of Twilight or not, since they mostly act on the ghost frequencies. But sometimes they interact with unbound geists, which are on both the ghost and spirit wavelengths simultaneously I think?

mighty zephyr
#

Even if they were Just Ghosts most werewolves are unable to make the distinction

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"That is a Possessed Guy"

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"That is Bad"

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"Exorcise And/Or Kill It"

pure mauve
#

...which could get them into trouble with sin-eaters, whose approach to these things is much more nuanced.

mighty zephyr
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Yea

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Which is the usualy MO of everyone interacting with everyone

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"Oh so this is clearly (x)"

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"....No? It's (y)"

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"I see. Death, then."

pure mauve
#

or the good old thing where sin-eaters make a lot of distinctions about the underworld and different ghosts who do different things for different reasons, and other factions go "yup those are all ghosts alright" and paint them all with the same brush (and meanwhile sin-eaters probably can't tell apart vampire clans).

#

like, they know how to make distinctions within one specific field, and otherwise just have broad categories which roughly boil down to "how do I fight this thing when it gets in my way".

mighty zephyr
#

The Pack book actually goes into how werewolves see every other splats

pure mauve
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Oh?

mighty zephyr
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Ye

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And how those supernaturals might be inducted into a pack

pure mauve
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...I think Sin-Eaters might be "closest" to regular humanity in some ways. In part because they're dealing with ghosts, and ghosts are former mortals. They stand as a bridge between this world and the next, and that by necessity involves the world of the living. Also, I think you can have humans in your krewe and share some powers with them?

clear delta
pure mauve
#

...look I thought my Geist special interest was gone but it randomly returned.

pure mauve
clear delta
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In 2e
Geists are purely death entities
They are ghosts who became mini gods of death

marble sorrel
#

Man, I really want to play a vampire with Stereotype some time. Feels like it would be very fun.

marble sorrel
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...hmm...getting some ponderings on some campaign stuff/doing up a 'The supernatural world gets very close to its hidden nature breaking down/a lot of major political structures get a teeth kicking' scenario for said campaign.

hybrid dock
#

👀

marble sorrel
#

My big pondering: There's a powderkeg that was set up that could end up with a Massive Clusterfuck that the game lines kinda glossed over but could have gone very different.

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Vancouver.

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A city where the local werewolves and vampires had a full on treaty/alliance.

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And later on you find out that the Syndicate/Pentex killed the werewolf who brokered it/have his pelt up on an office wall.

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That's mages, vampires and werewolves all directly interacting/conflicting in a major city. In the normal timeline it kinda just fizzled out but it could have gone much more loud.

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My thoughts:

-Pentex is doing standard anti-werewolf things, makes a strike on the local werewolves. They have no knowledge about the local alliance.
-Unlike in the actual timeline, the alliance *holds*. So Pentex finds what was 'kill like half a dozen werewolves tops' is now involving vampires having 'Yeah, we won't get angry at you killing and draining Pentex guys, they started this fight' and local law enforcement being sicked on them over 'terroristic activities' by senior local vampires.
-They call in help from the Syndicate to try and smooth things over and get control of this situation. It turns into an outright conflict that leaves all sides heavily wounded but Pentex is the loser in the end and moves their operations to another city. The Syndicate and the Vampires try to smooth this all over as 'terrorist attacks' in the media.
-Despite that, some mortal groups noticed what was going on and come to the conclusion that well...you can't just have private wars in the middle of cities, killing people. Someone needs to do something.

Less 'kill the vampires' and more 'The various supernatural groups can't hold themselves unaccountable any longer. If they act out, humans will bring down the hammer.'

So it ends up less 'Second Inquisition' and more Hellboy's BPRD, with humans more than willing to go 'Hey vampire/werewolf/changeling, how much money would it take for you to work with us bringing in troublemakers?'. Basicly use it for the setup of a Crossover Game.

#

The Masquerade etc is still holding to avoid chaos but it's taken a beating.

rapid glacier
#

I had a sort of softer version of this for my Boston VtM game and its worked out well, a more fleshed out and developed take as a chronicle book or a splat would be cool as hell (especially in 5th, where there is A LOT of gaps to fill and house rule to make work compared to the legacy editions)

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I'd play WoD Hellboy

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WoDBoy

marble sorrel
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Changeling: The Dreaming characters heard you talking shit (Actual picture from one of the kithbooks)

image.png
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Some slightly less 'GW gunna sue somebody' Changeling Power Armour.

image.png
somber scarab
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Changeling has power armor??

nimble gale
#

Imagination is one hell of a drug

pure mauve
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It’s so funny how incredibly different OWoD and NWoD Changeling are.

marble sorrel
somber scarab
#

People who pitch changeling need to mention these bits

vast blaze
#

Also

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My fellow players in my Vampire 20th Edition game have revealed their clan picks

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Two of them are Daughters of Cacophony, the third is a Malkavian

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It's going to be SO fucking funny being the only relatively sane PC

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"I HUNT SUPERNATURAL SHIT FOR FUN, HOW AM I THE SANEST PERSON HERE"

nimble gale
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Hey, daughters don't HAVE to be insane. They're not all banshees. Unless they took that one disadvantage.

#

they can just be flighty people who don't pay attention!

vast blaze
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...ah, yeah

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I thought the Daughters were crazy too

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Dunno why

nimble gale
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They often are, but don't have to be

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comes from having lyrics playing in your head at all times, and they do wield powers not unlike the more offensive uses of dementation via melpominee

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(I was making a Daughter for a game recently so I've read up on all theri stuff in V20. Ended up not playing her, but now I have a PTSD-riddled trans girl WW1 army veteran sniper-turned-lounge singer during the 1920s with loads of trauma in my back pocket for a game sometime.)

vast blaze
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Aaaaaah I see

#

...god now I hope that they DO play their Daughters as some flavor of crazy, if nothing else for the comedic factor of "The fucking Tremere is somehow the most well-adjusted guy here"

mighty zephyr
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I mean Tremere are often pretty mundane personality wise

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just hubristic

vast blaze
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Aren't they generally INCREDIBLY conniving and paranoid (due to all the conniving and scheming)?

#

Or am I mixing them up with another Clan...

worthy sundial
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i think thats just the normal state of political affairs in vampire society

mighty zephyr
#

yea

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That's pretty mundane

craggy coyote
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at least pre V5

vast blaze
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More so than most other vampires I mean

#

Given the whole business of trying to advance upwards in the Pyramid

craggy coyote
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The Pyramids nature means the only way up, is one of 3 ways: be so amazing they have to promote you, screw over someone to get power, or someone dies

vast blaze
craggy coyote
#

so yeah

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Add in the Capacity for Blood Sorc to curse your rivals, dominate to enter sleeper commands, and auspex to constantly spy on other tremere

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and everyone's trying to put each other in a panopticon while deseprately trying to escape everyone elses attempts

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Which is amde worse for them by the fact that every clan with obfuscate tends to hate them by default

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Banu hate them for the curse, the Nosferatu for well... gorgons, and the SEtites hate them for being prissy little shits who are also hiding the magic

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So uh. Good luck getting obfuscate to hide from anyone

vast blaze
#

God

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I can just imagine Lucien sitting on the outside going "The fuck they doin in there"

craggy coyote
#

Nothing you want to know, but always something you need to know or it'll turn into a war crime fast

velvet sparrow
mighty zephyr
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Settites are a clan

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So you cant really "join them"

velvet sparrow
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Also a religion

velvet sparrow
worthy sundial
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iirc u just need something that overwrites the blood bond